Slashdot Mirror
Is Neurostim Becoming a Reality?
destinyland writes "There is a current mass market for 'cognitive enhancement' products — and arguments about the black market potential for neurostim. 'The same neurostim device that uses electric impulses from a brain implant to treat people with Parkinson's Disease can be tweaked by a few millimeters and pulse rates to make cocaine addicts feel like they are high all the time... Mix the glamour of surgical self-improvement with the geekiness of high-tech gadget fetishism and you have a niche cosmetic neurostim market waiting to be tapped...'"
You are suggesting do-it-yourself brain surgery? I guess that would be "glamourous". If it works. And if it doesn't, it might win you a Darwin award.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Can I get one tweaked to give me a mind blowing orgasm every time I blink my eyes in rapid succession 10 times?
The name of the science fiction book in Russian would translate as something like "Predating things of the times". I don't think, an English translation is available (yet?), although plenty of their other books have already been translated.
(Benevolent) secret police investigate strange goings-on in a leisurely resort town. They discover a very simple to make device is capable of giving a very strong pleasure — endlessly (until the user is interrupted, or the body starves and dies, or — on very rare occasions — the user's own will prevails). The town's attitudes toward the device and its users, as well as similar (but not as all-encompassing) devices are examined...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
And can I have my droud back, please?
Thanks
--
BMO
I don't know about anyone else but every person I know who uses drugs on a regular basis is a complete moron and doesn't have anything better to do than getting doped up and hanging out and talking with their friends for hours about nothing. I fail to see how this will be useful for anyone else because I doubt you would want to sit around and read a novel while you are high whether its from drugs or some brain simulation. Now won't you kids get off my lawn so I can sit here peacefully and read a book on my vacation.
I'll be able to move faster, do more damage, and take more damage, all at a small cost of my health?
Fire it up!
If one is "high all the time," then that state becomes the normal state, and anytime they aren't "high" means they are in a "low state." Both psychologically and physiologically, one can become tolerant or adjusted to certain states.
If something is special, doing it all the time detracts from its appeal.
You cannot reboot your brain if it crashes. From my perspective... no thanks, at least for the foreseeable future.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Curious if this could be the steroids of competitive academia?
All those neurostimming drug fiends always hog the best tables at my internet provider, doing stupid stuff, reading junk and talking about nothing when they could be recompiling their C compiler.
Look pal, it's easy. You just take this neurospike and that hammer and apply according to the instructions. Now, you'll get a splitting headache afterward, but that goes without saying.
If your still interested in my other products, check out my new and improved nut-vice. Pure pain with pleasure!
Life is not for the lazy.
would be just feeling motivated, happy and loved all the time. That's the areas of the brain to stim.
Hell, could end most crime.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm skeptical (as usual), but if true, bring it on, Larry Niven style.
Now our addictive types get toasted on wall current instead of having to steal and carjack their way to their next fix? That seems like a step forward to me.
Legalize it so we don't get a load of back-street ecstasy peddlers giving everyone deep bone infections.
And then treat it as a public health issue, and let those susceptible to its lure breed themselves out of the population. It's just evolution in action.
Sean Ellis
Follow OfQuack's antics on Twitter.
Screw making me happy, I can do that myself. Make one that stops me being lazy, I'll buy it in a second.
-- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
Even if cocaine and other drugs were completely harmless, their ability to give serious but unearned pleasure would seriously warrant their banning. I admit, that this sounds religion-motivated, but that's hardly a drawback of an argument...
Consider sex (yes, I said it) — the intense pleasure most participants derive from it is the reward for the excruciating pains of childbirth and hardships of the childrearing. Contrary to the wide-spread misunderstanding, the mainstream religions want us to have sex — as much as possible. They just want it all to be for the purpose of reproduction, rather than simple self-indulgence.
Now, what is the justification for a cocaine-user's pleasure? What did he do to deserve, what a Trainspotting's character describes as "thousand times the most intense orgasm you've ever experienced"?
Of course, one needn't necessarily have earned all the pleasures of life — as long as one's habits don't interfere with others, one ought to be able to enjoy them. This is an individualist view, and I don't fully disagree. I would, however, be rather wary of such people: I wouldn't want one of them to marry my daughter, for example, as he may decide one day to stop caring for her. I wouldn't want my daughter to become such a person either, because I not only want my own grandchildren, I also want the Humanity to continue to exist (preferably — my brand of it, the Western Civilization).
So, even if cocaine did absolutely no harm to the body by itself — and the devices in TFA promise the cocaine-like effects without the chemical additiction — I wouldn't want to be near a user. Not saying, it should be illegal, but certainly frowned upon.
I'd suggest, we use these methods on the people either condemned to death for their crimes (capital punishment), or desiring to end their life on their own (suicide)...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Who needs DIY when you could get your local Dr. Nick Riviera to do a little neurosurgery! Perma Coke high? I can see some rich folks paying to have that done.
Look at something like steroids. For professional athletes that have to go to the black market it's illegal. But if you're an actor that needs to bulk up for a movie you can get a doctor to create a roid regiment and prescription for you. Perfectly legal.
And if it doesn't, it might win you a Darwin award.
Or you might be a redneck.
PSSSH - Awwww year. That's the stuff.
Here's the sound from the game
Mix the glamour of surgical self-improvement
Yeah, until they find your body. Then it has all the "glamor" of autoerotic asphyxiation.
Thank christ, another Michael Crichton reference. I was afraid they were taking an extended break.
The Terminal Man. "He's an elad." An electric addict. Stick wires in the brain to trigger responses from the pleasure centers. Push the button enough times and you're set for life, or at least until you pass out from not eating because you're loving the buzz. What a great world!
I can see it now in the police blog..."His batteries died and he commited suicide before they could be replaced"
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
Why wait for neurostim to deal with drugs this way? think about it.
Larry Niven wrote about some thing just like this in Flatlander: The Collected Tales of Gil The Arm Hamilton. With low current the person would be in perpetual bliss and starve to death just out of reach of food as they wouldn't disconnect. I can see it happening, would be amazingly addictive.
Oblig. Simpsons quote.
Dr. Nick: "I'll perform any operation for $129.95! Come in for brain surgery and receive a free Chinese finger trap!"
The ethical world of sticking something into someone elses brain is so complex, that I can't see it becoming reality any time soon. However, having your blood stream bring in some chemicals like Adderal, that is what is going to take off soon. Chemicals that are just mental steroids are the future, but society has still got to come to grips with them. I just got off finals and I would have loved something that made me want to sleep less and study more effectively. Oh, wait, there are drugs that do that, but possessing them would be cheating and a Federal crime.
I'm for the legalization of choices that degrade the brain performance of those who makes these choices. It removes competition and increase my market value.
By allowing "those people" to spend their money on drugs you guarantee that you (and yours) will always have a competitive advantage over them.
By remaining drug-free, you will (presumably) be healthier, more intelligent, and wealthier. Thus, you will have access to higher class jobs, a higher class income, and higher class people with whom to socialize and breed.
If you raise your children to share your values, then they, too, will have this advantage.
The drug users will, as a consequence of their devotion to drug-use, have to continue working their dead-end jobs in order to feed their drug habit, thus filling an economic role which you do not want to fill.
Thus, making drugs legal is in the best interest of those who do not wish to use them.
Surely someone who is selfish enough to talk about "unearned pleasure" is selfish enough to allow others to make decisions that will help secure one's own place in the upper echelons of society...no?
You mean like this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/651892.stm
-- I really need to bleed off some of this
Peter: Egon, this reminds me of the time you tried to drill a hole in your head. Remember that?
Egon: That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.
Oh I don't think so. Everyone would want this.
Even if cocaine and other drugs were completely harmless, their ability to give serious but unearned pleasure would seriously warrant their banning. I admit, that this sounds religion-motivated, but that's hardly a drawback of an argument...
Arguments like that boggle the mind. What is wrong with people actually experiencing pleasure? Do you have data that suggests that 'unearned' pleasure is ruinous as opposed to merely hypothesizing about what someone may do to your daughter? (BTW Perhaps your daughter can decide for herself what is appropriate for her.)
We know Combat stress reaction aka Shell shock does huge amounts of harm, so do traumatic childhood experiences and so does torture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_stress_reaction
They really cause mental illness, crime, lower workplace productivity and generally f*ck up society.
Of course its always the right wingers who love Jesus, who somehow think that pleasure = bad, torture = good and somehow use seriously fu**ed up reasoning to justify it.
And of course the earned pleasure of bankers who earn $150 million a year - that's SO TOTALLY earned. And those drug companies and health care lobbyists who use all there nice 'earned' money which was so rightfully earned to begin with. That's all pleasure that is morally right, sitting in their private yachts and jet-setting around in private planes. That' all OK, especially as its earned on the backs of the uninsured. Cause Jesus thinks it's MUCH MORE IMPORTANT that people not get too much pleasure and die cause they don't have health insurance. Good old moral values!
But god forbid some poor person who makes $8 an hour living on the poverty line who actually IS making an economic contribution by actually 'Working', if they want to get high - that is just SO bad. Can't have hard working and underpaid people enjoying life- no that's just for the rich. Cause the bible told me so.
We don't get to live for that long in the grand scheme of things - 70 - 90 years. Cant we just enjoy what little life we have?
this sounds religion-motivated, but that's hardly a drawback of an argument...
Well, actually, yes it is. Or at the very least it's cause to re-examine the argument and question it at a more fundamental level. Religions are often stuck in their ways and see tradition as a viture in and of itself. These systems are good when things are static, but they suffer when new technology changes how society functions, and they often fight back against that change. Religions aren't necessarily wrong about everything, indeed they're mostly right, but often for the wrong reason. So instead of taking religious dogma and thumping that, you should examine the dogma, use it to form an argument, and use that instead. And when an argument is whittled away and the only thing that remains is "butbutbut Religion!" that is indeed a sign that your argument is bad.
Stopping unmarried youths from having kids is a good idea. Family stability and all that. But the church didn't fight for family stability, they fought against sex. And not just unmarried sex. In their attempt to save the children (tm), they worked against every and all aspect of sex in society that the unmarried could come into contact with. That included the public and hence the effort to make sex taboo.
the intense pleasure most participants derive from it is the reward for the excruciating pains of childbirth and hardships of the childrearing
I'm a dude and I enjoy sex. I don't really expect childbirth to hurt all that much. And I've yet to enjoy raising children, but I hope they turn out better then your apparently satanic hellspawn.
Now, what is the justification for a cocaine-user's pleasure?
Well, he paid for it. That's the same justification I use when I play a game or enjoy a candy bar. Whatever floats you boat, right?
I have to agree with you that this could be abused. And there's plenty of sci-fi works to use as examples. But anything can be abused. Caffeine, trinkets, cats, power, religious fervor, food, fasting, gaming, isolation, social life, ANYTHING! And if someone takes part in/of a phenomena to an extent that it has negative consequences, THAT is the point to be concerned. And it's usually well before that point at which the person realizes the negative consequences and limits him/herself. But this is not a job I want delegated to the church and priests.
So take your right-wing-conservative-religious sense of morals and shove it.
I love that series because that is how life could be some day and more than likely will be some day!
Here are some things it covers:
Augmented brains - These give normal (natural) humans an "E-Brain" which allows them many digital advances.
Artificial appendages - For get that old peg leg pirate, that plastic manikin arm, or even that special Olympics bouncy leg/ankle/foot thingy! In the future we'll have straight out robocop style arms and legs!
Last but not least - implants! Oh yeah, not the sexy time, but the able to hack into other people's eyes and see what they're seeing implants! Yeah, get your eye balls replaced with artificial ones that have zoom built in! How about some that have different type's of filters? Such as infra red, just like the predator has! Finally, you'll have the people who'll have jammers, so make sure you don't get that cheap chinese stuff!
As mentioned above, the black market is/will be huge for this sort of thing, so you could very well get what you pay for, something they take into consideration in GITS... you get cheap shit, people with better equipment (govt/military) can hack/disrupt/nullify your devices (eyes, arms, body etc).
I totally see this happening. Who wouldn't want to have an e-brain? You can now store all your files in you! No worry about needing to remember things, just go diving around in your e-brain! But you better have a good firewall set up because you don't want to get hacked to mess yourself at the holiday party...
It'll take a long time but it will help life be a lot better. I would guess that it could possibly help some people like my grandma who's 93 (2 days ago!) and has Alzheimer's. Maybe it could have given her 15-20 years of life more worth living than not knowing who anyone is except at random moments in time. One can only hope right?
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
Let's just start with part of the headline material:
" 'The same neurostim device that uses electric impulses from a brain implant to treat people with Parkinson's Disease can be tweaked by a few millimeters and pulse rates to make cocaine addicts feel like they are high all the time..."
This (and TFA) is from "James Kent is the former publisher of Psychedelic Illuminations and Trip Magazine. He currently edits DoseNation.com, a drug blog featuring news, humor and commentary."
Hardly your neuroscience expert, or even much of an educated amateur. Educated enough to be dangerous to his own reputation perhaps. We can hope.
Where Mr. Kent goes wrong is in thinking the stimulator used for Parky's can stimulate other parts of the same structure (within a "few millimeters), the Substantia Nigra, which produced dopamine which is also released in cocaine use, and that this is the reward center, so that doing so makes one feel high.
The common misconception is based on the "reward" aspect, and confusion of cause and effect with respect to drug use. The reward system operates in the manner of conditioning or learning, in that its output helps to produce the association between a behavior and a reinforcer. Let's just assume for maximum illustration that the reinforcer here is a cocaine high. We have the drug taking behavior, and we have the cocaine high resulting. The dopamine system puts on the brakes with respect to ongoing seeking/investigating and lets the organism maintain focused attention on the object that produced the positive feeling -- it makes reinforcement possible. Note that it does not cause the high, the reinforcer does that. There are many reinforcers that can make learning occur, and most of them do not cause any sort of high. Just because cocaine causes a release of dopamine does not mean this is the source of the high. No, this is the source of the powerful reinforcement that causes addiction to start. Dopamine does not act as a "reward", it allows a reinforcer to do so effectively regardless of any psychotropic effects. It is the cascade of various neurotransmitters that causes the high. Evidence of this is found in the effect of pramipexole (Mirapex) on people. It is a selective dopaminergic and does not cause any high. But it does (at a high enough dosage) cause obsessive/compulsive use and behaviors much as an addiction and related activities.
Moving a Parky's stimulator will not produce a high, but it might produce the problems related to addiction.
I've previously pointed out the lack of facts in h+ articles, and the preponderance of fiction. This article starts out with the latter. Check the rest of it for yourself to see if there are any reliable facts actually taken from known science, or whether they are other common misconceptions put to service to fill white space.
As for cognitive enhancing drugs, amphetamines and such are behavior boosters, not capable of producing long term cognitive enhancement, unless by enhancement one means seeking more of the same. Cognitive enhancing drugs (nootropics) have been around for over 50 years. The first, hydergine, is the red headed step child of the man who called LSD "My Problem Child", Albert Hoffman. There are many such drugs in use throughout the world except for the US where they are allowed only in the cases where they will not help -- severe progressive dementia. In contract with the very lucrative drugs typically used as congitive enhancers, nootropics have very little side effects or interactions.
In the cases where cognitiion enhancement is possible, anything related to intoxication is contraindicated and counterproductive. Confusing "reward" with getting high, when it is intended only to related to learning reinforcement is key to understanding this. It is also key to determining whether the source is intent on getting smart or getting high, because the latter refuse to give up on the misconception.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
God forbid the terminally ill miss out on reading one last novel before they die Medical_cannabis
This device sounds a lot like the drouds from Larry Niven's "Tales of Known Space" series. People would get the implant, plug the droud into the outlet, and eventually die from malnutrition and dehydration. At least they didn't reproduce.
And you forgot: "Try my product!"
Whoever tagged this as !neuroticism probably needs a hug.
'Burn out' gets a whole new meaning, even without some do-it-yourself brain surgery.
Let's not confuse surgical self-improvement, which happens all the time from prosthetics to cosmetic surgery, with self-surgical improvement. Which would just be unthinkable when talking about the inside of your head. At least in this day in age.
Take a lesson from "fake boobs". Nature does it better. I wouldn't trust that sort of thing if my life depended on it. What sort of track record do things like this have for human health? Oh... but someone can feel like they're on cocaine all the time, that's EXACTLY what we need. Horray for modern science! These jokers should be flipping burgers for a living, not trying to re-engineer (badly) the already magnificent human body.
like mental illnesses like schizoaffective disorder (which I suffer from), schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses that can be disability. Such a device can control brain chemistry by providing the brain with the proper signals to release chemicals to counter the chemical imbalances that cause these mental problems and mental illnesses.
I would volunteer for neurostim testing, as I suffer from schizoaffective disorder and it has caused disability and career killing. Just to see if it would help others with my mental illness. As long as I don't turn into a zombie cyborg controlled by other people or something. :)
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
This reminds me of William Shatner's Tek War series.
I for one have a slightly over active sympathatic nervous system. This means its harder for me to fall asleep, I have sweaty palms often and I sometimes feel 'wired' in general. If there was an implant that I could use to turn this all down a little bit, like a particular drug I happen to know of, I would seriously consider it. Please don't generalize about people's needs or drug use because that really hurts fringe people like me in the scheme of things. You have no idea the social stigma of matters like these, especially if you are in a science related industry like I am.
"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar
I'm doing some DIY brain surgery while I am writing this, so far I have isolated the area for language and wit, I'm about to apply my patch to overclock it! Muhahah! Soon I will be posting the best slashdot comments ever!
....
Here goes:
*SUCESS* patch applied sucessfully, so far it seems stable but mayfb &^ng asdhg fsdHkuj ldSfhdj jhll hfhjfds jb ê
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Wake me up when the master Mu "electrical agonism".
If that's what the health plan covers that's what the health plan covers. No refunds
People have been able to stimulate the pleasure center electrically for decades, and the necessary electronics weren't that large even a few decades ago. People don't implant electrodes into their pleasure centers because (1) it's not good for them, (2) they can't do it themselves and surgeons won't do it for them, and (3) brain surgery isn't much fun.
See also: "The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force That Undermines Health & Happiness" by Douglas J. Lisle
and Alan Goldhamer:
http://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Trap-Mastering-Undermines-Happiness/dp/1570671508
"""
A wake-up call to even the most health conscious people, The Pleasure Trap boldy challenges conventional wisdom about sickness and unhappiness in today's contemporary culture, and offers groundbreaking solutions for achieving change. Authors Douglas Lisel, Ph.D., and Alan Goldhamer, D.C., provide a fascinating new perspective on how modern life can turn so many smart, savvy people into the unwitting saboteurs of their own well-being.
Inspired by stunning original research, comprehensive clinical studies, and their successes with thousands of patients, the authors construct a new paradigm for the psychology of health, offering fresh hope for anyone stuck in a self-destructive rut. Integrating principals of evolutionary biology with trailblazing, proactive strategies for wellness, they argue that people who are chronically overweight, sick and ailing, or junk food junkies aren't that way because they're lazy, undisciplined, or stuck with bad genes. The authors reveal that most are victims of a dilemma that harkens back to our prehistoric past-"the Pleasure Trap."
Drs. Lisle and Goldhamer then call upon their clinical experience, scientific investigations, and a recent revoution of understanding in human motivational psychology to provide you with solutions for the challenges of keeping on a healthful course-and how to make the most of your life.
"""
More here:
http://www.healthpromoting.com/Articles/articles/PleasureTrap.htm
Basically, it is about progressive desensitization. In terms of food, fasting for a time can sometimes help reset our sense of what is a good amount of stimulation (the subtle taste of a carrot, the nuanced taste of other natural foods) and what is too much (too salty, too fatty, etc.).
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
More like Louis Wu.
http://wireheading.com/wirehead.html
You mean like this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/651892.stm
Oh my god....
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
The English translation is titled The Final Circle of Paradise.
...the words "reward" and "bait."
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Please put this in a sci-fi story, not on Slashdot. We're trying not to think about is, and if and when we come to the bridge, then burn it down.
The iPhone SDK supports interfacing to external devices. Who wants to write the Bluetooth App that'll trigger a high or orgasm instead of a ringtone when selected people call?
With a multipoint interface matrix, a choice of responses could be made available.
I suppose calls from others could make you twitch, fart, or react in other special ways
coding enhancing drugs. I thought I read on slashdot awhile ago about people taking them to help them code. (Since they help you maintain a focus and keep calm.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Everyone will want this and those who don't are bound to be poor, stupid and unproductive suckers in comparison as they can't stimulate their brain like the new Übermensch shall be able to. He will look upon unstimmed man as man looks upon an ape: "A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment."
Hmm. Sounds suspiciously like the droud in Death By Ecstasy
Me, I want a tasp.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
To treat nerve pain and Trigeminal neuralgia. Its a Medtronics and it's mounted pretty high up my spine, C-1, C-2 and C-3. Its mounted in my chest, right over my heart with wires across my chest through my shoulder and to my spine.
From my experience, it's not going to become a "niche cosmetic neurostim market", not for say 10-15 years. They are bulky, the wires are thick and I lost 30% strength and 40% of my mobility in the shoulder the wires run through.
I have deep brain stimulation (DBS) implants for dystonia, and they're hit or miss. Maybe you get some sort of high, maybe your arm goes rigid, maybe you see spots. And for twenty hours of brain surgery, awake--well, I wouldn't have done it if I thought I had any better options.
The state of the art with this is nowhere near reliable enough to do for nonessential reasons, even if you have some of the best doctors in the world. And the expense--well, if it had been out of pocket, it would have cost me >$300k.
Or, you can just go score some coke, if you're into that kind of thing.
'In knowledge is power, in wisdom humility.'
Go easy on your EBEs.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5159636661461723061
Ask Me About... The 80's!
You my label me psycho for saying this, but I think that it is difficult to get serious brain damage by putting a needle in the wrong place. Unless you cut a big vein on the surface, I think that playing spiky-touchy with the brain itself isn't that much of a problem.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
The novel Tool of the Trade by Joe Haldeman concerns the discovery of a specific ultrasonic frequency which induces a state of extreme hypnotic suggestibility -- in effect, a mind-control sound.
Hypnotic suggestibility is different, of course, from electronic pleasure (see Wirehead), but there are interesting correspondences.
-kgj