Slovak Police Planted Explosives On Air Travelers

Entropy98 writes "Slovakian Police have planted explosives on 8 unsuspecting air travelers. Seven were stopped by airport security, including one man arrested and held upon arriving at a Dublin airport. Unbelievably, one innocent traveler made it home with 90 grams of explosives, and had his flat surrounded by the police and bomb squad."

Comments

Seriously?

[NonSequor]

What the crap, man?

Re:Seriously?

[komisar]

How about we repeat the exercise daily at randomly chosen airports around the globe?

Screeners who miss the contraband (or allow a passenger to exit through an entry way) would be stripped of badges and ids, fired on the spot and escorted outside the airport.

Passengers originating at or transiting through airports with a poor screening record would be denied entry to the US.

Seriously.

Re:Seriously?

[dbIII]

I really don't userstand why they didn't use harmless bits of plastic the right size made to smell like explosives by rubbing against it or something. I work with people that do work with explosives (seismic surveys) and they set off airport detectors with their boots or other work clothing at times.

Re:Seriously?

[QuantumG]

Yes.. testing of security systems.. madness.

Re:Seriously?

[Mad Merlin]

How about the US just flat out denies all air travel to, from and/or through the US. It'd be far less inconvenient for everyone involved.

Re:Seriously?

[williamhb]

I'm not that surprised it got through. About 15 years ago a friend's brother inadvertently traveled through at least six airports with a WW2 grenade casing (explosive core removed) in his luggage, courtesy of one of his drunk friends hiding it in there as a joke. He only found it when he unpacked after getting back home from his travels. Sure there were no explosives so it wouldn't set of a chemical detector, but you'd have thought the X-Ray operators might have raised their eyebrows at something clearly grenade-shaped..

Re:Seriously?

[petermgreen]

Using innocent and unsuspecting members of the public to do it though seems like a pretty fucked up thing to be doing and I hope whoevers idea this was gets punished appropriately.

If you are a goverment want to do a test of airport security systems then fine but use someone who has agreed to do it, agree it with the governments of target countries first and give that person ID so that they can prove that they are doing an official test.

Re:Seriously?

[Schemat1c]

How about we realize that we are far more likely to be killed by our car or the food we eat then by terrorists?

How about we quit giving away all of our hard won freedoms like a bunch of scared pussies?

Re:Seriously?

[lendacon]

It was a bomb-sniffing dog test, that's why the used realy explosives.

Re:Seriously?

[IronChef]

Seriously, no "... airports bomb YOU" jokes yet. WTF?

Re:Seriously?

[Junior J. Junior III]

So do they also do this with drugs? You hear about it all the time.

Re:Seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.. testing of security systems.. madness.

Yes madness. If you're going to test the security system, you do it using government agents operating in plain clothes, you don't just go planting shit on regular passengers.

Re:Seriously?

[schon]

How about we realize that we are far more likely to be killed by our car or the food we eat then by terrorists?

I don't understand - if you're killed by your car or food, aren't you already dead? How is a terrorist supposed to kill you if you've already been killed by your car or food?

Re:Seriously?

[buswolley]

Back that up.

Past frequency does not tell us much about future frequency when the context changes. For example, if a terrorist group has a nuke, will previous frequency data still apply?

I think not.

Re:Seriously?

[Kell Bengal]

How about we quit giving away all of our hard won freedoms like a bunch of scared pussies?

Sadly, time and time again, the population has shown itself more than willing to lie down and meow.

Re:Seriously?

[Darkness404]

That is the stupidest thing I think I have ever heard.

For one, this would make security theater even more pronounced, at least with the way it is now there is a chain of blame meaning that no one person is usually blamed for a certain incident. For another it would make policy even stupider than it already is, its bad enough when you can't take liquids on the plane, whats next? Them searching through your laptop, prying off every key to try to find explosive residue underneath it? Already, human and civil rights are raped when you travel by air, adding more stupid policies aren't going to make us any safer. If someone really wants to blow up a plane they will find some way to if they are reasonably intelligent, unafraid of death, and we aren't velcroed naked to the plane during takeoff.

Plus, in some countries airport security is bad, they don't have as much security theater as the US but somehow they manage to have avoid hijacking and terrorism. The US is about the only country that requires passengers to take off their shoes, has that made us any safer? Have you seen shoe bombings all across Europe, Asia and Australia because of this? No. It is security theater. The US tries to be high and mighty in security theater yet other countries have a lower rate of air incidents and have a "poorer screening record" than the US.

Your policy would effectively deny entry to the US from many, many, many different countries. Effectively a travel ban. This is a bad thing to both the security, foreign policy and economic rights of the US.

There comes a time when you have to look at the US travel screening system and realize it takes away a bunch of human rights, puts us an a 1984-style dystopia where people are afraid to look, talk, act or even think "suspiciously" thinking it will cause alarm and destroys the US economy. No one wants to fly on planes when the TSA wants to treat us all like criminals. No matter how well the airline treats you, your basic rights to not be treated like a criminal are violated by the TSA. Then because no one wants to fly, the airlines lose money, when they lose money they try to squeeze every single penny out of you, when you do that you don't want to fly even more then, and it repeats.

Re:Seriously?

[Darkness404]

We can have a lot of "what if" situations. What if terrorists have a space laser that will vaporize half the earth if we don't bow down to Allah? What if terrorists are in the administration of every school district and are indoctrinating our children? What if terrorists have some stock in Apple and every time you buy an iPhone you are supporting terrorism? What if terrorists use Linux, doesn't that make you a terrorist if you are using it?

Yeah, everyone is scared a terrorist group may have a nuke. And no, there is very little reliable data to show it has a nuke. It is a lot more reasonable to say that Iraq, with a simi-legitimate government, large area, and somewhat rich would have WMDs. Oh wait... when we invaded Iraq... they had no WMDs. If Iraq, a nation with many people couldn't get a WMD (or managed to turn these WMDs into ninjas so the US/UN/etc couldn't find them...) how much more unlikely is it that a terrorist group would both A) have a nuke B) have the ability to safely store the nuke in working condition C) have no leaks regarding the nuke D) take the nuke onto US soil E) detonate the nuke F) have the nuke go off G) have an acceptable kill-rate.

Look, we are a lot more likely to be nuked by our own nuclear weapons than for a terrorist group to nuke us (excluding the governments of Iran, North Korea, etc) on our own soil.

Paranoia only gets us so far, we can say "what if" to a number of things, but in the end, can we -really- back those things up to justify loss of human life, loss of an economy, loss of human rights, etc? I think not. There was a lot more hard evidence for Iraq to have WMDs than for a terrorist group to have nukes.

Re:Seriously?

[raddan]

Not that I agree with the Slovakian police in this particular case, but what they did here was essentially a double-blind trial of the airport detection systems in the field-- which is an important hurdle they should be able to pass if they want to claim that they aren't just expensive junk. There was an article here on Slashdot not too long ago about how the U.S. military was bemoaning the fact that Iraqi security forces were using divining rods to detect hidden explosives. The Iraqis claim that they are effective, and in non-double-blind trials that may even be true. But not for the reason that the Iraqis think.

Making the trial double-blind controls for other variables, like the bomber being detected by security personnel because he's "twitchy". Someone who doesn't know he/she is carrying explosives won't act abnormally because they don't know they're going to bomb anything. If you're making bomb-detecting equipment, you may consider that an important scenario to be able to catch. The Slovakian approach is elegant, if somewhat immoral.

Re:Seriously?

[ceoyoyo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

If the fictional nuke wielding terrorists managed to set one off every four years and kill as many people as died at Hiroshima, they'd kill about as many people as die from motor vehicle accidents in the US in the same time period.

Re:Seriously?

[_Sprocket_]

Past frequency does not tell us much about future frequency when the context changes. For example, if a terrorist group has a nuke, will previous frequency data still apply?

Show that the context has changed. As you said, back that up. Fear mongers like to throw around the phrase "everything changed with 9/11." Yet in the past 8 years, the statistics have barely moved a blip. Sure - we see more attacks. We get more news stories going over every detail of the newest failed attempt. But the statistics are still pretty solidly in your favor for avoiding a terrorist attack.

Re:Seriously?

[HeronBlademaster]

Ban religion? Don't be silly; that wouldn't solve anything. Generally speaking, people who commit violent acts in the name of religion are ignoring the teachings of the religion they claim to follow (e.g. the Crusades).

If religion were magically erased from existence, these people would just find some other excuse for violence.

I'm going to refer to the old axiom "correlation does not show causation". It's especially relevant with regard to religions that teach against violence.

Re:Seriously?

[mobby_6kl]

First of all, as has been already mentioned, the terrorists will know that they're carrying a bomb, and that they are going to kill themselves in a few hours.

The second point would be that it's still possible to do a proper experiment. Divide the volunteers into several groups: group 1 will be told they are carrying a bomb, group 2 will be told that they may be carrying it, and group 3 will be told they aren't going to get it. Plant the bomb on some (but not all) of them or their luggage. Observe. Bonus: don't get your citizens shipped off to gitmo.

Re:Seriously?

[mjwx]

Here's some perspective for you,

In the US less then 3000 people have been killed by terrorism in the last 10 years. More then 40,000 people are killed each year in motor vehicle accidents.

Re:Seriously?

[gad_zuki!]

>If religion were magically erased from existence, these people would just find some other excuse for violence.

In some cases, yes, but you cannot deny that hate is taught by religion. The hate of others and the specialness of the religious group is taught in almost all religions. Few religions have any tolerance for gays, different religious people, atheists, women who want equality, etc.

Not to mention, a lot of these terrorists are mentally ill bottom feeders who are being used by the religious elites to bomb their targets. Without religion these people would be wandering aimless or better yet, in some kind of institution. Better that than being indoctrinated about how one must kill infidels.

Turns out the power elite use religion for their own goals. Corrupt middle east governments blame their domestic problems on Christian and Jewish foreigners instead of addressing these issues properly. Corrupt Western government use the religion card to cow voters and to appeal to the bigotry of the masses. If there was no religion then they would be forced to be accountable for their governments.

Some of us are still trying to imagine no religion. The idea that it would make no different isnt convincing in the slightest. A secular philosophy that fulfills the needs of these people could change the world.

Re:Seriously?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

If the fictional nuke wielding terrorists managed to set one off every four years and kill as many people as died at Hiroshima, they'd kill about as many people as die from motor vehicle accidents in the US in the same time period.

Take the world as it is today, vehicle death-toll included, then picture what the world would be like for the year following a Hiroshima'esque attack with the exact same death toll.

Re:Seriously?

[fractoid]

It is a certainty that any well-funded terrorist group will eventually have access to nuclear-scale weapons, and probably in the next hundred years. We need to fix the social problems that cause terrorism before that happens. In real terms, that involves raising the level of education and the quality of life in all parts of the globe to the point where there are no large groups of people who are still so poor that they have nothing to lose, or so ignorant that they have nothing to believe in beyond what their local preacher tells them.

Iraq didn't have WMDs because it didn't want them. A country is a large, stationary target that can't afford to risk playing dirty. What we should be afraid of are small groups with no allegiance to anything except their crackpot holy war (witness Hezbollah and their use of Lebanese civilians as human shields - they're the military equivalent of a guy who straps a playgroup full of 2-year-olds to himself before going on a shooting rampage, and then blames the police for any harm that comes to them).

Re:Seriously?

[pommiekiwifruit]

Has there ever been a recorded incident where an unwitting passenger caused an explosion?

April 17, 1986: A pregnant Irishwoman was duped by her Muslim boyfriend, Nezar Hindawi, into carrying a bomb onto an aircraft at Heathrow.

Fortunately it was an El Al flight, so they had actual security instead of the pretend type they have for US/European airlines and she was stopped before boarding.

Re:Seriously?

[ScrewMaster]

That is the stupidest thing I think I have ever heard.

You must be new to Slashdot. Believe me, that was far from the stupidest thing I've read around here.

Re:Seriously?

[The Grim Reefer2]

The Terror Pussies - that'd be a good name for a band. Unfortunately, it's also a description of most of our Congress and a lot of our fellow citizens (especially the ones with Rs after their names).

What's your problem with registered nurses?

Re:Seriously?

[ximenes]

I think it's conceivable that the world's population could have its quality of life raised across the board so that there are not people living in abject poverty who are literally starving to death, although it would be quite difficult and especially problematic to do so without causing the abject poor and working poor to effectively combine (meaning a reduction in quality of life for those presently at the low end of the scale but above the very bottom).

However, raising the quality of life so that literally no one has anything to lose (as you put it) doesn't seem practical. If everyone is a millionaire, then that will be the new poverty as the value of things will adjust accordingly based on their scarcity as already happens.

Put another way, someone will always have more than you in one way or another. More possessions, more political power, more social influence. If you feel that this is unbearable (as in someone who is legally permitted to obtain an abortion) or that you have no power to change this within the system (as with a tyrant suppressing political freedom) then people of a particular disposition will gravitate towards terrorism as a means to achieve their goals. Not to mention those who possess a strong enough dislike for another group of people based on religion, ethnicity, or other factors that their mere existence is offensive to you, which is even more difficult to solve as there is no middle ground.

Re:Seriously?

[Vellmont]

It is a certainty that any well-funded terrorist group will eventually have access to nuclear-scale weapons, and probably in the next hundred years.

WTF? Are you actually SERIOUS? Plutonium isn't exactly available at Wal-Mart. Nuclear weapons are inherently difficult weapons to create, and to even dream of doing to you need to the fissile material, which is even harder to obtain.

How anyone modded this up is beyond me.

Re:Seriously?

[totally bogus dude]

Aren't the "typical" terrorists/extremists, particularly the ones who get into a position to be able to launch an attack on foreign soil, highly educated, and reasonably well off? I don't think the stereotype of "they only do it because they're so ignorant they believe in sky faeries" really holds water. While I agree somewhat that the West should be doing more to make the less fortunate parts of the world hate us left, I don't think this is a problem that can be solved simply by changing conditions.

There will always be people who are willing to use violence to benefit themselves, and there will probably always be ways to profit from violence; whether that's materially or simply the joy of being surrounded by sycophants. And there will probably always be people who simply cannot tolerate the existence of certain other people. I mean, most Western nations are well educated and have national policies of inclusion and anti-xenophobia -- but still there's rampant racism and classism, and no shortage of people who fall for scams and join cults and so on.

Re:Seriously?

[snowgirl]

but not at one time.. Cancer kill thousands of people, but if you kill 20 at one time.. the news will not shut up..

or maybe this logic should be carried on, well your honor, I only killed 1 person, the Flu kills more than that, so why should I serve anytime?

The argument is not that we should ignore terrorism, but rather put it in perspective. A slow trickle of water from a leaky faucet over time will make you lose more money in wasted water than drafting a whole bath and then not using it at all.

It's all about getting PRIORITIES straight.

A better question based off what you proposed is to ask why the government spent more catching me as a murderer of one person, than it did curing the flu.

Re:Seriously?

[roc97007]

> Screeners who miss the contraband (or allow a passenger to exit through an entry way) would be stripped of badges and ids, fired on the spot and escorted outside the airport.

I don't think you can. I'm pretty sure they're Union.

Re:Seriously?

[williamhb]

Yeah, everyone is scared a terrorist group may have a nuke. And no, there is very little reliable data to show it has a nuke. It is a lot more reasonable to say that Iraq, with a simi-legitimate government, large area, and somewhat rich would have WMDs. Oh wait... when we invaded Iraq... they had no WMDs. If Iraq, a nation with many people couldn't get a WMD (or managed to turn these WMDs into ninjas so the US/UN/etc couldn't find them...)

It's very well-documented that in the past Iraq most certainly had been able to obtain WMDs (in particular chemical weapons) ... because they have used them to suppress uprisings. There are mass dead bodies to prove that they once did obtain WMDs. The issue before the invasion was whether they still had them, or whether the UN inspections had succeeded in making Iraq get rid of them. (Turns out, Blair and Bush were wrong and they had got rid of them -- though there's some likelihood they got rid of them by giving them away to Syria)

The "fear of a terrorist group getting a nuke", now, is pretty much that Pakistan most definitely does have nukes and is in danger of instability because of the problems in Afghanistan having pretty much crossed the border into Pakistan now. If the Pakistan government were to fail, and Pakistan became a failed state (like Afghanistan or Somalia), then it's not beyond belief that an extremist militia would not only be able to obtain a nuclear device, but a whole dang nuclear missile facility. The reason your aeroplane is unlikely to miss the runway is simply because the pilots, air-traffic controllers, and system designers are very intently working to make sure it doesn't. Similarly, the reason that the terrorists are unlikely to obtain a WMD is because there are thousands of people working very intently to make sure they don't. It is precisely because people are worrying about this sort of thing (and indeed are employed to worry about this sort of thing) that ensures that you don't need to worry about it.

Re:Seriously?

[HeronBlademaster]

In some cases, yes, but you cannot deny that hate is taught by religion.

I certainly agree that some religions do teach hate, but Christ's teachings (for example) have never supported hate nor violence. (I'm not saying the Catholic Church never supported violence; that's an entirely separate issue.)

Not to mention, a lot of these terrorists are mentally ill bottom feeders who are being used by the religious elites to bomb their targets.

If you replace "elites" with "extremists", then I'd agree with you... But then, extremists have never been an accurate representation of the group they claim to belong to, by definition.

Few religions have any tolerance for gays, different religious people, atheists, women who want equality, etc.

You're conflating the ideas of "tolerance" and "acceptance". A group need not accept $BEHAVIOR among its members in order to tolerate that behavior in others.

Few religions advocate violence against those who hold different beliefs.

Re:Seriously?

[williamhb]

If the fictional nuke wielding terrorists managed to set one off every four years and kill as many people as died at Hiroshima, they'd kill about as many people as die from motor vehicle accidents in the US in the same time period.

Deaths through medical error are the equivalent of a fully laden 747 crashing every week (see the human factors in healthcare literature), but that is not considered a reason to be more lax with aeroplane maintenance...

Re:Seriously?

[networkBoy]

since when is a nuke hard to create?
You find me some decent u235 and I'll make you a nuke.
I can source *everything else* easily.
I can do the machining.
I also will take your nuke and give it to the fishes over by Bikini Atol and set it off rather than let you use it on a civilian population. Ironically that would likely scare the US a lot more.
[oh shit mode]
They just proved they have NUKES!!!!111~
[/oh shit mode]

Anyway, nukes are not hard. High yield and/or "clean" nukes are hard, but a terrorist likely cares only a bit about the first and likely wants to avoid the second. Frankly, I can think of literally 5 or 6 ways to actively attack the infrastructure (planes fall out of the sky at random, certain other vehicles with certain payloads have interesting failures, etc.) that would be nearly impossible to avoid against. and if you want to actually go BOOM then just load up with nails and dynamite and stand in line to get on a plane. When you're in the middle of the security queue push the button...

I'm more afraid they get their hands on smallpox either by a plant here at the CDC (they seem to be able to recruit some pretty smart people / doctors...) or by bribe to someone in Moscow. That would truly suck.
-nB

Re:Seriously?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I would be more amenable to the "macho" argument

So, in your mind, being less worried about dying in a terrorist attack than you are worried about the 10000x more likely death in a car accident is being "macho?"

if the governments of the world, particularly those in Europe, would put aside their reluctance to admit that we have a problem with militant Islam and start killing the terrorists

Oh, whatever you do, don't throw me in the briar patch!

Re:Seriously?

[Attila Dimedici]

. We need to fix the social problems that cause terrorism before that happens. In real terms, that involves raising the level of education and the quality of life in all parts of the globe to the point where there are no large groups of people who are still so poor that they have nothing to lose, or so ignorant that they have nothing to believe in beyond what their local preacher tells them. Iraq didn't have WMDs because it didn't want them.

First of all, Iraq had WMDs at one point because they used them against their own people. Saddam Hussein used poison gas (a WMD) against the Kurds in 1988.
You appear to think that terrorists come from people who are poor and uneducated. The Christmas Day Underwear Bomber was the son of one of the leading bankers in Africa, his last known address was a $3 million dollar apartment in London (the source I saw it in listed it converted to dollars, not in Pounds or Euros) and he spent three years at a London University (I don't remember the specific name and don't feel like taking the time to look it up at the moment). He was not an exception, but more or less typical.

Re:Seriously?

[fractoid]

Aren't the "typical" terrorists/extremists, particularly the ones who get into a position to be able to launch an attack on foreign soil, highly educated, and reasonably well off? I don't think the stereotype of "they only do it because they're so ignorant they believe in sky faeries" really holds water.

You make a good point. The typical third-world suicide bombings are carried out by poor, desperate people but as you say, the high profile, effective attacks on first world countries are not. They're carried out by people who are highly educated, intelligent, and wealthy... but who still somehow believe in vengeful sky faeries, at least to the point of claiming them as motivation.

I propose that it is the sky faeries that we really have to fear, so long as people believe in them.

Re:Seriously?

[Leebert]

Sure - we see more attacks.

Really? I honestly don't think I see more terrorist attacks today than prior to 9/11. Don't forget Oklahoma City, the first WTC bombing, the Unabomber, etc. etc. Terrorist attacks are a fact of life, and are most certainly not limited to attacks on aircraft.

What I *do* see is a lot of mis-characterized "terrorist" attacks around the globe. An IED blows up a humvee in Iraq? Terrorist! (No, it's a military strike.)

Re:Seriously?

[Surt]

Nuclear scale weapons. Creating deadly plagues requires comparably cheap biolab equipment, and are really hard to detect crossing borders. It will be within the price range of a terrorist organization in 20 years to create something as deadly as ebola with the contagiousness of the swine flu.

Re:Seriously?

[Leebert]

you cannot deny that hate is taught by religion...Few religions have any tolerance for gays, different religious people, atheists, women who want equality, etc.

You do know that Jesus hung around some of the lowest-class and most sinful people, right? The analog to our contemporary trailer trash. He challenged them about their sins, but he certainly didn't berate them. Read John 4, and Jesus's interaction with the woman at the well in Samaria.

Just because many of the followers of the religion take its teachings incorrectly, does NOT mean that it is endorsed by the religion. And I say as a Christian, that goes for most other religions as well.

Re:Seriously?

[Zerth]

I'd be more afraid of a cargo ship full of conventional explosives sailing into NY harbor than a nuke in NYC. Simply more feasible.

Re:Seriously?

[Fizzol]

>How about we realize that we are far more likely to be killed by our car or the food we eat then by terrorists?

That's hardly the point. Terrorism, as the name implies, is all about terror.. It's largely inconsequential to terrorists if they pile up a body count or not, it's the fear even aborted or foiled attempts instill that matters. So, the actual chance of being killed by terrorists is irrelevant really.

Re:Seriously?

[SageLikeFool]

Off Topic, but I stopped reading after you talked about the terrorists having stock in Apple. That would be one bitchin' internet meme. Somebody less lazy than me should write up a chain spam email about that subject.

If that email spread far and wide, would APPL stock be dumped like an ugly girlfriend or gain on the stock market even faster due to unscrupulous Wall Street movie-type sharks jumping on a hot trend?

My money would be on the latter.

Oh, and Hail Eris!

Re:Seriously?

[jcr]

Yeah, because Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot were such religious men.

They were, actually. They worshipped themselves. With the utmost devotion.

-jcr

Re:Seriously?

[demonlapin]

That might be true of Taliban types and the low-level AQ-Iraq grunts, but the guys who do the damage in the west are overwhelmingly from middle-class or better backgrounds.

Re:Seriously?

[Kreigaffe]

Yeah uh we already do that. VOLUNTEER army. He wasn't drafted, he SIGNED UP for that shit. He didn't snap because he was being forced to fight Muslims (he was a damn shrink, not a grunt), he snapped because he was CRAZY.

Draw correlations between his religion and being crazy at your own peril..

Re:Seriously?

[Surt]

They lacked one of the 5, safety. They pretty universally came from very violent countries where the religious caste can do whatever they want to you if you don't obey their rules, or even if you do and they don't like you.

Re:Seriously?

[gandhi_2]

I'd be more afraid of a cargo ship full of zombies sailing into NY harbor than a nuke in NYC. Simply more awesome.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Seriously?

[pipatron]

What if terrorists use Linux

If they are not using Linux, Microsoft and Apple would probably be fined and/or investigated by the CIA/NSA/TLA (Three Letter Agency).

Linux is often the only viable choice for any terrorist of importance, because of the trade embargoes against terrorist countries (as decided by some random "we don't like this country" rules).

Re:Seriously?

[Wrath0fb0b]

In real terms, that involves raising the level of education and the quality of life in all parts of the globe to the point where there are no large groups of people who are still so poor that they have nothing to lose, or so ignorant that they have nothing to believe in beyond what their local preacher tells them.

It's hard to square this advice with the fact that most terrorists are college-educated. Bin laden was an engineer from a wealth family, Mohamed Atta had a PHD in urban engineering, KSM has a degree in mechanical engineering, Ayman al-Zawahiri was a surgeon from a wealthy family, Abdulmutallab was a mechanical engineer from a very wealthy family. The Israelis have had the same experience with the PLO & Hamas -- the more educated and affluent tend to be over-represented, especially engineers and doctors (this was discussed on /. a little while ago). When in the Global Attitudes Project, respondents who were more educated or higher income were more likely to say that suicide bombings carried out against Westerners were justified.

Even more bizarrely, most terrorists come from the wealthier nations in the area, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, despite the fact that they enjoy a much higher per-capita GDP, standard of living and education systems than places like Somalia, Sudan or Indonesia. The better their lives, the more they seem to gravitate towards violent extremism. There are a number of plausible explanations for this, my favorite is that military/political influence is luxury good and those that are in abject poverty are effectively apolitical since they have no labor to spare from making ends meet. There is also the point that since terrorist networks are fragile they must only recruit the most competent and self-sufficient.

None of this is to say that we shouldn't promote education and economic growth as worth goals, but the idea that terrorism is born from a lack of opportunity is plainly in conflict with the facts. Terrorists tend to be educated (quite often Western-educated which not a good mark on our schools) and more wealthy than then unwashed, apolitical, masses in the third world.

See, e.g:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Makes-Terrorist-Economics-Terrorism/dp/0691134383
http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/terrorism2.pdf (PDF)

Re:Seriously?

[Kjella]

I would be more amenable to the "macho" argument if the governments of the world, particularly those in Europe, would put aside their reluctance to admit that we have a problem with militant Islam and start killing the terrorists instead of wasting their time on fruitless diplomatic endeavors that simply embolden terrorists everywhere by demonstrating weakness and impotence.

I think most of them are well aware there is a problem with militant Islam. The question is if trying to "kill the terrorists" will work and the experience from IRA, ETA and several other european terror organizations is that it won't. Terrorists don't act like a militia or a guerrilla, they blend into the civil population too well. Going in heavy-handed and trigger-happy will mean a harassed population, huge civilian losses and huge public backlash that'll fuel the terrorists, If you can't be accurate enough, it'll only make the problem worse and worse until muslims and christians in general are at arms.

There is, according to wikipedia, about 1,570,000,000 muslims in the world. Honestly, 99.99% of those couldn't give a shit if there's other people who live as Christians. Militant islamists won't stop no matter what we say. But they might stop if other muslims said "WTF are you doing? Are you crazy? Stop that shit." and I dont think it would be possible to win against the terrorists unless the average muslim will help us in any case. Either there'll then be an internal feud and the muslims will weed them out on their own, or in worst case the militants will win but even then I think a post-WWIII where they can look at the militants the way germans today look at nazis is better than a christian-led escalation of the conflict.

Re:Seriously?

[pipedwho]

Probably because they have been shown enormous injustices that are regularly committed around the world - and then convinced that the 'right thing to do' is die for the cause to heroically stand against this 'evil'.

At that point, the 'evil' is whoever they are most convinced it is.

It is much harder to rally people to a cause, when the underlying premise is weak or unemotional.

Re:Seriously?

[fractoid]

Karma be damned, any organisation or group that advocates violence against another group, or converting others by violence, is a "social problem". You want the "PC bullshit gloss" removed? How about "militant religious groups are cancers in our global society and no-one on earth is safe until the scourge of fanaticism is erased".

Goddamn invisible sky faeries.

Re:Seriously?

[konekoniku]

"No one with a brain and access to the internet really believed that Iraq had a stockpile of WMD." This is a lie, unless you want to define "with a brain" liberally. Nearly the entire US intelligence community, the overwhelming majority of US policymakers, the overwhelming majority of US academics studying the topic, the overwhelming majority of the US general population, and the overwhelming majority of our foreign intelligence partners all considered it likely that Iraq had WMD at the time. In fact, this is used in the international relations literature as a classic example of unavoidable groupthink -- even if the US intelligence community had gone to the outside community to get second opinions, they would have inevitably reached the exact same conclusions.

Re:Seriously?

[sjmacko29]

This is the best grammar nazi post I have seen on Slashdot in a long time... Sadly, it will not be understood by many...

Re:Seriously?

[hairyfeet]

I agree completely, which is why I HATE the political PC "be nice to Islam" BS. Have you ever seen the shit they are teaching their kids? Look up "Palestinian Mickey Mouse" to see a cutesy cartoon character that teaches kids to pick up AK47s and when the show was canceled they had a little "memorial" for the now martyred mouse who "died fighting those evil jews" in a suicide attack. WTF? Or check out some of the "happy songs" that mosques in places like Pakistan teach little five and six year old kids. One of them I saw had this little line sung by happy smiling kids "I'm gonna get to Allah with the heads of Jews and Christians on my belt!" Again WTF?

So I'm sorry, but until the vast majority of Muslims speak out against such evil shit and the spewing of such hate then they deserved to be treated like the dangerous cult that they are. NO other mainstream religion allows such mainstream spewing of hatred to even the youngest minds with nary a squeak of protest. Frankly this PC bullshit where we have to pretend that there is NO difference between the other religions and Islam is frankly globalist insanity and needs to be fought on every front. There IS a BIG fucking difference between Islam and the other religions: full stop. The other religions have accepted the right of non-believers to exist and have marginalized those that spew hatred and advocate violence. Islam? Not so much, in fact not at all.

So I'm sorry, but until they learn to play nice and not treat those that don't bow before their God as infidels unworthy of life they should ALL be treated as members of a dangerous cult. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, and refusing to speak out against the hatred being spewed by Islam because it isn't "PC" is not only bullshit, it is dangerous and foolish.

WTF?!

[wisesifu]

WTF?!

...apologize unreservedly

[Art Popp]

To the Slovakian Minister of the Interior,

        I wish to express profound regret on the part of the US for failing to categorize and properly label DVDs obviously sold to your country. Odd as it may seem, the "Police Academy" video series was never intended as instructional.

        Sincerest apologies,

        I. M. Spending
        President of Physics

No intelligence service could be this stupid alone

[jollyreaper]

They must have had CIA assistance.

Send the police to jail

[mbone]

Seriously. This could get someone killed. Someone needs to be punished for this.

(Assuming, of course, that this report is true.)

Re:Send the police to jail

[LostCluster]

Here in the USA, only the TSA may try to test TSA security. Some reporters tried shortly after the agency was established, and they were all told their reports couldn't air.

Re:Send the police to jail

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Really? In the shoot-first-ask-questions-later world of "fighting terrorism," you ask how planting explosives on somebody in an airport without their knowledge could get them killed?

Re:Send the police to jail

[jameskojiro]

When someone gets guns pointed at them for carrying "bomb laden" luggage the person who thinks his luggage is clean stands there in disbelief as they demand he gets on the floor and he is so stunned that he doesn't go down and gets mowed down on concourse B by over eager TSA agents....

Re:Send the police to jail

[nedlohs]

Trigger happy SWAT at the other end combined with a confused and scared luggage owner.

Re:Send the police to jail

[QuantumG]

You know what would be awesome? If that happened.

Obviously for the victim or his family it would be terrible, but once the scandal broke that the explosives had been planted on him by operatives there would no longer be any armed thugs in airports around the world, and we'd all be treated with a little more respect. Here's hoping that Slovakia's little experiment has a similar effect.

Re:Send the police to jail

[cowboy76Spain]

Hey, if the TSA guys tell him to get in the floor (and don't shoot it while in the floor) then they are not too bad... in the UK it could have been way worse. Just out of my memory:

• Operation Flavius.
• Jean Charles de Menezes.

No punishment for anyone, all of the people responsible for these killings (and intents of cover-ups) still work for the Government.

Nothing like a little perspective, don't you think?

Re:Send the police to jail

[BeardedChimp]

Except that this already has happended in the UK and he was carrying a lot less than planted explosives. A coat was enough for Jean Charles de Menezes to be shot seven times in the head.
And yet the reports into the shooting of an innocent men found no members of the police guilty and security measures in the UK have continued to become more invasive.

Be careful what you wish for.

Re:Send the police to jail

[timeOday]

Obviously for the victim or his family it would be terrible, but once the scandal broke that the explosives had been planted on him by operatives there would no longer be any armed thugs in airports around the world, and we'd all be treated with a little more respect.

The police certainly weren't banned from BART for shooting Oscar Grant, even though bystanders caught the whole thing on video and the victim did not have any contraband, planted or otherwise.

Re:Send the police to jail

[Reservoir Penguin]

What next? Plant some heroin on unsuspecting passengers and send them to Turkey?

Re:WHY does this NEVER hapen to me?

[MichaelSmith]

I don't like your chances of suing the Slovak police in Slovakia.

Hopefully something changes

[lendacon]

This country is going to hell, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Police planting exposives in your baggage ? (WTF ? )

Re:Why?

[Jarik C-Bol]

in other news, we know know that RDX can get through airport security. No wonder a guy managed to get a crotch-bomb onto a plane during christmas.

Re:Why?

[93 Escort Wagon]

TFA doesn't explain why the explosives were planted. One obvious reason is to test security but in that case you would have a "wicket keeper" to catch the undetected explosives.

It may just be bad English or a translation error, but the Slovakian Police were quoted as saying "Someone set us up the bomb".

Re:Why?

[MichaelSmith]

I chuck mine straight in the washing machine set on hot, then the dryer. Then I give it a good going over with an iron.

Re:Why?

[centuren]

TFA doesn't explain why the explosives were planted. One obvious reason is to test security but in that case you would have a "wicket keeper" to catch the undetected explosives.

I recall reading about police in (I think) Japan who were doing this with drugs. Planting the stuff on people then testing their inspectors. One sample got away I believe.

I expected security tests with planted explosives to come at some point, but I assumed that they would use undercover agents to test security, not innocent bystanders. However, I'd assumed the same would have happened for something like the described drug operation in Japan. I don't see how any government could do something so reckless.

Multilayer WTF?

[Opportunist]

1. WTF: No theat to passengers? At the very least 8 passengers were put into serious danger, considering the trigger-happyness of some guards. Your bags get opened, they find explosives, now don't twitch the wrong way or else...

2. WTF: What about the whole security theater we have to endure? The whole privacy invasion and they can't even find effing explosives? Just do away with the whole crap and be done with it, at least the planes will go on time again that way. Because that showed one thing: If you want to blow up a plane, you can. You just might have to send a few guys, one of them will make it. And that's pretty much all you need. After all, as a terrorist you don't really care about picking a special target plane. Any will do to cause fear.

But I'm sure we'll soon get info how the whole thing works like a charm, after all 7 out of 8 bombs would have been detected...

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[RobVB]

But I'm sure we'll soon get info how the whole thing works like a charm, after all 7 out of 8 bombs would have been detected...

I don't even think that's the case.

FTFA:

The explosive was one of eight pieces of contraband placed with unsuspecting passengers at Bratislava Airport last weekend, broadcaster RTE reported.

and

Airport security detected seven of the illicit items, but the eighth - 90g of research development explosive - managed to escape detection.

They planted eight pieces of contraband, one of which (the one that got through) was a high-grade explosive. They don't mention what the other seven pieces were, but they could have been steak knives, scissors, nail clippers, forks or drugs. All of which are easily detected with things that don't detect bombs.

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[netruner]

One problem with this whole thing is that if the luggage owner doesn't know there is contraband in it, they will act differently than someone who knows what they're carrying.

Observing "suspicious behavior" is a big part of picking this stuff out.

I think this should be enough to invalidate their test unless they were intentionally isolating the behavior observation methods out.

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[Opportunist]

Does it matter? Imagine I'm a terrorist and want to blow up a plane. Do I take my explosives with me? Hell no. Instead, I'll seed a few other travelers. For multiple reasons:

1) The obvious one you mention, I might act suspicious because I know I will suicidally blow up the plane. They will probably search me throughly because I'm nervous. They won't search some random travellers.

2) They might find one or two of my explosives. By spreading them over a number of people I increase my chance to get the items on the plane.

The test is valid. What matters is that these things are on the plane. You might remember that the 9/11 attackers didn't bring their weapons on board themselves either.

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[clone53421]

Slovak authorities apologise as hidden explosives enter Dublin

The 96 grammes of high-grade plastic explosives was one of eight batches concealed by the Slovakian security services in the luggage of passengers departing Poprad-Tatry airport in eastern Slovakia on Saturday.

...

The busy roads around the apartment were sealed off for an hour, and nearby apartments and business premises were evacuated. The area was declared safe by gardaí and the Army’s bomb disposal experts at 12.05pm. The explosives are stable at room temperature but volatile when stored below minus four degrees. The quantity exceeded the 80 grammes carried by a man who tried to blow up a plane to Detroit last month.

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[clone53421]

They planted eight pieces of contraband, one of which (the one that got through) was a high-grade explosive. They don't mention what the other seven pieces were

According to this, they were all high-grade plastic explosives.

Re:Multilayer WTF?

[denobug]

What is scary and get people upset is the fact that we are risking innocent bystanders who have no clue what to do. I'm sure the Slovakian government didn't leave a note in the explosives to tell someone the full story and that this poor guy is not involved. I'm not even sure if it would have made him looked even guiltier with that.

Quite frankly the thoughs of this could possibly happen to my parents who doesn't speak proper English to defend themselves just makes me livid.

Re:What the...?

[FooAtWFU]

I don't know that the typical "let's blow up a plane!" sort of terrorist we've run into of late is all that worried about getting away without trouble if they're caught. I mean, they're willing to die.

Scientific method

[MichaelSmith]

TFA doesn't explain why the explosives were planted. One obvious reason is to test security but in that case you would have a "wicket keeper" to catch the undetected explosives.

I recall reading about police in (I think) Japan who were doing this with drugs. Planting the stuff on people then testing their inspectors. One sample got away I believe.

I expected security tests with planted explosives to come at some point, but I assumed that they would use undercover agents to test security, not innocent bystanders. However, I'd assumed the same would have happened for something like the described drug operation in Japan. I don't see how any government could do something so reckless.

They are doing a proper double blind test. The Undercover agents would give away their special status. A lot of the work of security is watching the behaviour of the travelling public. Does this person think like a bored traveller?

Re:Scientific method

[cheekyboy]

Unless they catch a real bomber, then all tests are useless, since they dont know how one really behaves.

Using the public is evil regardless. If they dont know they have the explosives, then their behaviour will be unchanged, so its a useless blind test.

Re:More proof

[jameskojiro]

Pshaw, if it was engineered it was "engineered by incompetence" much like any other massively bloated software development effort....

The only conspiracy in 9/11 besides the Islamic Radical one to fly buildings into planes was a "Conspiracy of Incompetence" amongst the many federal agencies that could have done something to prevent it. Most all the hijackers wre here on EXPIRED VISAS. Where the hell was ICE on enforcing this? Instead of creating the "Department of Homeland Insecurity" they should have fired and removed the pensions of those who ignored the warnings of those below them and promote those who were warning their superiors to the jobs of those fired. Fire the incompetent boobs that let it happen and blacklist them from ever getting another government job again in their lives.

After 9/11 there should have been several hundred people in the CIA and FBI walking out of the government buildinds with their possessions in boxes and their resumes on monster.

Re:Why?

[maxume]

Doesn't that ruin most drugs?

Lucky they landed in Ireland and not the US.

[Dr. Spork]

I really wonder what American authorities would have done! This stunt is so crazy that I almost can't believe it's real.

Re:Lucky they landed in Ireland and not the US.

[MichaelSmith]

In 1997 in Galway, Ireland I watched the Army deliver money to a bank. They don't use security guards for that in Ireland. Or didn't, anyway. They had three guys in good positions with self loading rifles triangulated on the entrance to the bank. There were hundreds of people in the street and if they had opened up with the guns many people would have died.

Money and explosives are taken very seriously in Ireland.

Re:More proof

[Sechr Nibw]

The only conspiracy in 9/11 .... here on EXPIRED VISAS. Where the hell was ICE on enforcing this?

ICE? Seriously? Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, that was formed in March of 2003? Yeah, they f'd up big by not preventing 9/11 in...2001.

Re:Why?

[Trepidity]

Bad English indeed, to flip around the words in the idiomatic English phrase "set up us the bomb".

Meanwhile, in Spain

[mbone]

Could this be another Police test gone awry ?

"Huge" quantities of cocaine delivered to supermarkets in Spain hidden in boxes of bananas.

Why "unbelieveably"?

[John Hasler]

We all know that the "security" is crap (and now we have more evidence that those enforcing it are loons).

Gotta light?

[whrde]

I hope they at least chose non-smokers.

Re:Gotta light?

[denobug]

Actually the plastic explosives are good fire source like charcoal. US Service members use those to start a camp fire during Vietnam. You need a higher density of energy source than a small fire to make it explode. Otherwise it simply burns with no spectacular fireworks.

Re:Suuuuure they did

[PopeRatzo]

What do they do to you in Ireland if they find explosives?

Give you communion and call you a patriot.

Re:WHY does this NEVER hapen to me?

[numo]

Good luck sueing the slovak police... there were cases were real harm was done and it took years to sort it out, sometimes at the european level (I am a Slovak living in Slovakia and following the local news).

Here it looks like the slovak police botched their job, but it took irish officers to make a royal mess of it ;)

The local media coverage (by any means _not_ government friendly) says that

1) the slovak authorities informed the pilot who was still waiting for takeoff and he decided that this is not a threat and continued the flight

2) the Dublin airport was informed during the flight. They later reported back that they did not find any explosive, but the officer informed his boss two days (!) later, triggering the a bit chaotic operation.

From the information circulating I tend to believe that the Dublin airport was sitting on the failed catching of the "parcel" for two days and is doing damage control now.

Why is not catching these surprising?

[Locke2005]

My mother managed to smuggle a pen knife on board an airplane in her makeup case. My sister had a knife on the OUTSIDE of her backpack; the supervisor made the screener run the backpack through twice because the screener didn't see it the first time! You try looking at thousands of x-rays a day and see how well you pay attention. Human monitors are inherently fallible; our best bet is automated chemical-sniffing technology that can easily be trained to look for new forms of explosives.

Re:Why is not catching these surprising?

[cdrguru]

You can stop worrying when people stop suing. If it can be generally agreed upon that it is OK if an airplane blows up, then great. But if the families of he dead passengers are going to sue someone, it stops being OK.

Today, the way it works is the government says nothing bad is going to happen. When something does, it isn't the airline's fault - the government said so - so the insurance company has to pay. If the government were to stop saying nothing bad can happen, well then it has to be someone's fault. If it is the airline, then no insurance and one less airline is flying.

You see, they can't say it is the terrorist's fault - he is (a) dead, and (b) has no money. Someone must be found with enough money to pay off the families. As it stands today, it is the airline insurance company. Take that way, and maybe no more airlines at all. Most businesses would pretty much just shut down if they were faced with that kind of potential liability and no way to do anything about the risk.

If you haven't done anything wrong...

[beej]

If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about!

Maybe NOW people will stop saying that. Probably still wishful thinking on my part, I admit.

I'm Slovak and the summary is wrong.

[misof]

I'm Slovak. The version presented in our press goes as follows. Planting and then detecting the explosives was a part of a dog training security exercise of the Slovak police. The exercise was a disaster. Out of the 8 items planted in the travellers' luggage only 7 were found successfully. These are probably the "seven stopped by airport security" from the summary. The seven do NOT include the guy in Dublin. That is the unlucky guy that got the eighth piece. His luggage passed all security checks and he unknowingly brought the piece of explosives with him into Dublin, where he was then detained by the Irish police. This more or less matches the BBC version linked from the summary, only the summary is wrong. Please update it.

Re:I'm Slovak and the summary is wrong.

[clone53421]

Not only did the Slovak security not stop the guy, but the Dublin security didn’t stop him either. He took his luggage home with the explosives still inside, unpacked and still didn’t find them, and 3 days later Slovak police called him and told him there were explosives in his luggage, right before the Irish police raided his apartm– um, his flat.

Someone already did test it...

[cowboy76Spain]

Ok, a bit of karma whoring, but couldn't keep from telling that someone has already tested the fails in airport security:Reporters Expose Airport Security Lapses By Blowing Up Plane

Re:Smoke test

[cyphercell]

you're a fucking idiot. If this had been impressive we wouldn't have heard about it. Furthermore, if this was blind why the hell was the plane allowed to leave after explosives had been found. This was a total fuck up. The whole goddamn thing just sounds like bravado masquerading as competence, with explosives. Hell, I think everyone that gets off a plane from slovakia should be suspect now, after all, we KNOW they will let the planes go after explosives are found.

the Irish Times has some additional details

[DotDotSlashDot]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0106/1224261733594.html

Not necessarily Slovakian police

[a0schweitzer]

TFA makes no mention that the explosives were planted by Slovakian police, only that British police were informed by them. For all we know, the explosives were planted by baggage handlers. I have no idea how thoroughly baggage handlers are screened (both before each shift and before employment) in Slovakia.

The summary is wrong.

[clone53421]

including one man arrested and held upon arriving at a Dublin airport

He was arrested in his flat, not in the airport. From TFA:

He was arrested on Tuesday morning ... Slovakian police alerted their Irish counterparts on Tuesday morning, and the man's flat near the city centre was cordoned off while bomb disposal experts removed the explosives for further examination.

From this article:

He unpacked his bag but the explosives had been concealed so well that he did not find them. The Slovakian authorities only realised yesterday that one batch of explosives was missing. They established the Dublin-bound passenger had not been detected.

Re:What the...?

[Idiomatick]

Yeah but it'd be really embarrassing in the afterlife...

Re:WHY does this NEVER hapen to me?

[The Wild Norseman]

Even if you do win, you probably wouldn't like how they "settle their debts".

What, they sneak the check into my back pocket when I'm not looking?

Eh, not needed

[SmallFurryCreature]

Dogs are trained with the SCENT of the materials they are supposed to detect, not the actual materials. A rag exposed to the material is enough, and should be enough because if you claim the strength of the smell is important, then another layer of clothing will hide the smell.

So, this was just a really stupid stunt. What if someone had run in a panic during an arrest and been shot? If this story really is true (it seems idiotic) then the world would be wise to demand the execution of the people involved. It really is an amazingly bad move. Using random people as test subjects with life explosives on planes with no warning to other security forces to expect this.

Heads should definitly roll, in a very real sense.

Good thing it wasn't the UK

[Low Ranked Craig]

and their onerous, over the top "strict liability" charges. For example: http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html

Re:You mean the illegal immigrant?

[honkycat]

Get this and get this straight, using lethal force against someone because they're running away to evade arrest is not acceptable. Whether they're criminal or not is irrelevant.

Yes its true story, more info here

[spamcop]

These articles are in slovak language: http://tinyurl.com/yeut367 http://tinyurl.com/y8jozyj Basicly, they were testing dog in real conditions, but after finding one explosive, policeman with dog went to a second airplane and forgot to look for another explosive in first one.

Re:Yes its true story, more info here

[spamcop]

Oh and explosive was 90 grams of hexogen (RDX), http://wapedia.mobi/en/Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine

Re:mnb Re:Seriously?

[ScrewMaster]

This is what it is to be white in America.

No, more correctly put, that's what it is to be not obviously Muslim in America. I've seen black people, Oriental people, people from all kinds of countries not normally associated with terrorism pass similar situations with equal ease. But if you have a Middle Eastern look about you (even if you're a true-blue dyed-in-the-wool Honest-to-God AMERICAN) you will likely be hassled with extreme prejudice. And that's the way the majority want it, because everyone knows that you can pick out the terrorists just by looking.

X-Ray Operators...

[raftpeople]

are trained to find the more deadly items, like more than 3 ounces of toothpaste or shampoo.

Re:You mean the illegal immigrant?

[Cruciform]

Ran? I don't see mention of the specifics on the UK news site in the GP, but the last time I read about the case at the time it happened, the eyewitnesses were making statements that indicated he had not been running, and was shot twice in the back of the head by men by men who did not announce themselves, before falling to the ground and being shot in the head again repeatedly - contrary to what the police claimed at the time.

Re:You mean the illegal immigrant?

[Rufty]

No, you're wrong, so get this and get this straight.

He was in the country lawfully. He did not run, he stood from his seat when a plain clothes cop yelled 'He's here!' to 2 of his colleagues. The police did not identify themselves before shooting.. Oh, and the police lied about it aftewards.

Ballsy

[pspahn]

This is the kind of ballsy moves we need to scare terrorists away. Well done.

Re:You mean the illegal immigrant?

[Bigjeff5]

Get this and get this straight, he was shot because he ran and he ran because he was a criminal.

First, the police had no evidence suggesting he was a criminal, and in fact he was not a criminal. He was never tried and convicted of anything, he was not under surveilance for any reason (until that day), nothing. While there were some inconsistancies regarding his Visa, records show that he had entered the UK via Ireland and was well within the automatic 3 month limit granted to people entering the UK via Ireland. The inquest determined he was in the country legally at the time he was shot.

The inquest also determined that Menezes was never running, he had been under surveilance because he lived in the same building as the suspected bombers, but all the suspecions the plainclothes officers had on him were based on that fact and the fact that he had brown skin and "mongolian eyes" as one officer put it. While sitting on the train, newspaper in hand, he was grabbed and shot 7 times in the head. He was not doing anything a normal person wouldn't, his only crimes were living in a building where four suspected bombers lived, and having brown skin.

The inquest determined that the police did not identify themselves before shooting, essentially he stood up, was tackled, and shot before he knew anything was going on. They did this at point blank range, according to eyewitness reports, after having subdued him.

This was an example of where the Police got it very, very wrong, and killed an innocent man for no reason other than they were scared. They did not even give him fair warning, they simply killed him almost execution style. Way to keep us safe, eh?

Re:More proof

[Anonymous Coward]

ICE? Seriously? Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, that was formed in March of 2003? Yeah, they f'd up big by not preventing 9/11 in...2001.

INS, as it was called back then, was so incompetent that it issued the dead hijackers visas after 9/11. It then promoted the people responsible for the fuckup into positions of non-responsibility.

INS was always the most dysfunctional of the Federal bureaucracies, and splitting it into ICE (Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, the beating-up-Mexicans side) and CIS (Citizenship and Immigration Services, who is in charge of issuing visas to dead hijackers, while simultaneously ensuring that it takes 5-10 years for a dude with a Ph.D to get a green card) is no different.

As the old Soviet/Russian joke about the GRU/KGB/FSB goes: Old bureaucracies never die, they just change their names.

("In Post-9/11 America, old bureacracies change their names, but they never die! Whatta country!")

Some crude stats on the terrorism threat to you

[GodfatherofSoul]

Based on my novice attempts at researching odds, I found you have about a 1/12,300 chance of being killed in a motor vehicle wreck each year and a 1/40,000,000 chance of having a terrorist bomber board your flight since 9/11 (United States only). I flew home on December 27th two days after the attempted bombing and I slept the entire way back.

Re:mnb Re:Seriously?

[Attila Dimedici]

This is what it is to be white in America.

Unless of course you are Michael Yon ( http://biggovernment.com/2010/01/05/exclusive-interview-military-blogger-michael-yon-detained-by-tsa-in-seattle-airport/ ). While I have not yet seen this confirmed in another source, it is consistent with other stories I have seen of the TSA harassing its critics (or even those who do not voluntarily give them information they request that has nothing to do with airline security).

If only

[BitHive]

Yes, if only there was some kind of "final solution" that could eliminate all the undesirable elements in society...

Be affraid....of whom?

[Dr La]

Seriously. This security scare has gotten to the point where you actually have more to fear, as an air passenger, of security forces than of actual terrorists....

And the latter are sitting back and laughing their arse off...

Re:Be affraid....of whom?

[DigitalSorceress]

Came here to say this.

In a nutshell, we've completely let the terrorists win.

A terrorist isn't specifically interested in killing the given 200 to 400 people on a plane or even the potential thousands of collateral victims. They're interested in scaring the shit out of millions of us and then sitting back while we do their work (terrorizing ourselves).

I'm not adverse to the act of flying, but I'll be damned if I'm going to subject myself to the insane security theater. If I can drive, take a bus, boat, or train or just do my business online, I will do so rather than put up with the hassle at this point.

That may be letting the bad guys win too. I dunno. I'm a lot more afraid of the very real danger that I'll be deprived of liberty/due process/several hours of my life by government and/or security people than I am of the very tiny one of being personally injured/killed by a terrorist attack. /end rant

Smart Idea, badly executed

[Virtucon]

I think it was a smart idea badly executed. If they planted explosives on unsuspecting passengers, the passengers could conduct themselves with a sense innocence. This would give human screening personnel a challenge in looking for suspicious behavior. Also the detection devices would get a thorough test based on finding the traces of those explosives.

Where they failed is that after the screening process they should have taken those passengers aside and explained what was going on and pulled the explosives back and to be honest they should have used something that simulated those explosives. They should have also not allowed any individuals to board flights with live explosives, risking further individuals as well as those carrying them.

As they say, you can't fix it unless you know what is broken.