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Microsoft Says Upgrade To IE8, Even Though It's Vulnerable

Barence writes "Microsoft has issued a statement urging people to upgrade their browser to IE8, after the zero-day exploit that was used to attack companies such as Google went public. According to Microsoft's security advisory: 'the vulnerability exists as an invalid pointer reference within Internet Explorer. It is possible under certain conditions for the invalid pointer to be accessed after an object is deleted. In a specially-crafted attack, in attempting to access a freed object, Internet Explorer can be caused to allow remote code execution.' But, although IE6 has been the source of the attacks until now, Microsoft's advisory admits that both IE7 and IE8 are vulnerable to the same flaw, even on Windows 7."

279 comments

  1. Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    .. now *that* would be real fun.

    1. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That does bring up a good question - given the huge numbers of IE 6 installs that persist (due to hordes of crap .NET programmers*), Microsoft not supporting IE6 is likely what would help drive Firefox (or Chrome, Safari, Opera, etc) adoption.

      After all, if one cannot have IE6 and IE8 existing on the same machine at the same time, but IE6 on the Internet is the next best thing to suicide, then why not modify IT policy and the prebuilds so that IE6 is internal-only, while Firefox (or whatever else) becomes the browser of choice for public Internet use?

      * note that this isn't a knock against the language itself, but against the fact that while it was widely adopted, it was widely implemented by a lot of programmers who had no business being programmers (at least w/ lower-level languages, bad code tends to die off or get re-written much quicker). Also, there's the fact that Microsoft has a lot of old baggage around that it can ill afford to simply stop supporting.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by quantumplacet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's a nice thought, but a) most end users won't accept using two different browsers and b) it's not just intranet pages that keep IE around. the biggest thing holding back other browsers in the corporate world is the inability to manage them centrally through group policy or something similar.

    3. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How is this a troll? What he said is true.

      Corporate IT departments don't want to deploy Firefox, Chrome, or Safari because they can't be centrally managed. There is no equivalent to the IEAK. Chrome is particularly loathed by IT departments because you can download it, install it, and run it as a user because the program only installs to the user's application directory. Additionally, adding Firefox means you've also got to support that in addition to IE. Switching away from IE doesn't mean you can stop supporting it; it's a core OS component.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    4. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fair point on the former, but the latter could be managed to an extent via GPO - you just have to roll your own policies to do it.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Agreed - he made a fair point.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    6. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Eirenarch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      WTF? First of all how do .NET programmers have anything to do with IE6 installs? Second - why pick on .NET and not on Java which came first or even Python and Ruby which claim to be even easier? Oh yeah... the first from Microsoft and the others are open source... And btw these programmers you are talking about would still be employed and would be doing much more damage if it was not for .NET and Java to keep them from producing billions of buffer overflows and memory leaks.

    7. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (due to hordes of crap .NET programmers*)

      You mean hordes of crap ASP programmers. It's ASP and ActiveX in intranets that keep people on IE6, not .NET.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by maotx · · Score: 4, Informative

      We were in a similar situation when we wanted to migrate away from IE6. We have several client sites that we must use that are IE6 only and were not compatible with IE8's backwards compatibility.

      The solution we came up with was to deploy Firefox throughout the company with IETab already installed with a list of rules to load incompatible pages into an Internet Explorer tab within Firefox. This is completely transparent to our users and the majority of web browsing is done with Firefox.

      --
      I'm a virgo and on Slashdot. Coincidence? Yes.
    9. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by riegel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Chrome is particularly loathed by IT departments because you can download it, install it, and run it as a user because the program only installs to the user's application directory.

      Think of that, a web browser that runs in user space. Seems like it should be loved by competent IT depatments.

      --
      http://p8ste.com - Web based Clipboard
    10. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by BlackBloq · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's simple B.S. Every person I deal with in supporting their machine I get rid of every shortcut to IE and tell them that they have a new browser. They all love Firefox and Opera. I use Firefox (with noscript) to fix computers with alot of kids. This is good because some kids click everything they can find online! For slow systems I install Opera. It uses the least system resources and starts the fastest. This makes the user very happy cuz all they want is for their machine to function as advertised. So they don't really love the browser, they couldn't give two shits, they just know if it works on facebook, or takes forever loading up a 'heavy' page.

    11. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      it's a nice thought, but a) most end users won't accept using two different browsers and b) it's not just intranet pages that keep IE around. the biggest thing holding back other browsers in the corporate world is the inability to manage them centrally through group policy or something similar.

      I work for one of those such big FTSE companies. I tried using Firefox but repeatidly came across too many sites which either didn't work or rendered badly.

      Off the top of my head, these don't work with Firefox:

      1. The whole intranet.
      2. The brand assets site.
      3. The whole HR system (Oracle e-Business).
      4. The IT department equipment ordering site.
      5. The desk booking system.
      6. Oracle Financials for PO's and expenses.
      7. Manugistics stock system.
      8. Our spam filter application.
      9. Quality Centre (what used to be Test Director).
      10. Sharepoint.
      11. The meeting room booking system.

      The only thing which does work is the Safecom print queue system! Note that I'm not blaming the Firefox devs here, all the applications have been written to work in IE and IE only.

      In the end, I still use Firefox but also have IE View running with a large list of domains to run in Internet Explorer. I tried IE Tab but it doesn't like ActiveX which seems to be the main issue on a lot of these sites.

    12. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Chrome is particularly loathed by IT departments because you can download it, install it, and run it as a user because the program only installs to the user's application directory

      Almost true, but not entirely. I happen to prefer it over Firefox because if you use the Google Pack installer, it installs to Program files and installs google updater which keeps Chrome up to date, and refuses to let the updater be tampered with (even with runas) if the current user is not admin. Plus, I can (if i really need adobe reader instead of foxit) have Google Updater keep adobe up to date

      TBQH Im not terribly concerned with what google may be doing with anonymous data from the users as much as I am with the users having a browser that doesnt beg them to update by hand. At least with googlepack/chrome i can know theyre always running the current version.

    13. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Sorry for double post, but forgot to mention that nothing prevents you from rolling your own GooglePack-Chrome MSI package and deploying that via GPO.

    14. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what the fuck does .net have to do with it? At my job, we're still on IE 6. Is it because of the 1 .net based app? Nope, that works just fine in IE 7 (and the .net part works fine in IE 8). It's html, javascript, and active x that require IE 6.

    15. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Chrome is particularly loathed by IT departments because you can download it, install it, and run it as a user because the program only installs to the user's application directory.

      Given that any ClickOnce application does the exact same thing - and it is by design! - why single out Chrome in particular?

      It's not like users can't use "portable" applications (like Firefox), either. And if you block USB and CD drives, they can still mail one to themselves, or download it from the web.

    16. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      He may have a point, since most ASP programmers of old have "migrated" to ASP.NET + VB.NET ("migrated" here more often than not means "learned the minimum basic skills required to use the new stuff in the old way", and the code produced is usually horrible).

      It's not a fault of .NET as such, rather than the fact that it was a designated migration path for those people.

    17. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Switching away from IE doesn't mean you can stop supporting it; it's a core OS component.

      Not sure what you mean. What the heck does support mean? Obviously, people have and do use other browsers as their default in windows. Which means that they are no longer vulnerable to ie's problems when surfing the web. What does support firefox mean? Training you staff to know where to click to disable bad extensions? Isn't that pretty trivial?

      How difficult would it be to create a custom installation of firefox in the style of IEAK? It is open source...

      I don't mean to say there aren't barriers to making the switch, but it seems in the light of all of IE's problems that its much better in the long term to get away from it. As time goes on the list of excuses just seems to get lamer and lamer.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    18. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      Could you elaborate on this? This is not one that I have heard about. Yeah I may have been in cave for a while or just not reading the right stuff.

      I have a few clients that are chained to IE because they use ADP and they do not support ANY other browser because of an individual user cert that has to be loaded.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    19. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by fluffy99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My compromise to the problem of users installing Firefox is simply to accept it and push updates to them.

      I have a GPO with computer startup script that checks if Firefox is installed, if it's not the latest version it installs the latest version. The downside of this approach is that I have to manually update the script everytime there is an update, and this does nothing to update add-ons. IE at least gets updated via wsus and I don't even have to think about it.

    20. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by sgtrock · · Score: 3, Informative

      Corporate IT departments don't want to deploy Firefox, Chrome, or Safari because they can't be centrally managed. There is no equivalent to the IEAK

      Nonsense. We manage something like 2,800 apps centrally for 60,000+ desktops using a 3rd party tool. We have another 400 or so apps that we manage for our 11,000 servers. Total staff to package and update this environment? About a dozen.

      Firefox is just another app to us.

    21. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      using a 3rd party tool

      Group policy is built into the OS? It'd be great if Firefox et al. added ADMX files to manage Firefox via the registry or somesuch.

    22. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      note that this isn't a knock against the language itself, but against the fact that while it was widely adopted, it was widely implemented by a lot of programmers who had no business being programmers

      The same can be said for any language and platform. I know plenty of lousy JEE "developers" (read: hacks) and script kiddies who insist on writing web applications using scripting languages.

    23. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure! Tell us how to deploy it to hundreds of machines silently, integrate Flash and a JVM with it, set the homepage, proxy and proxy bypass options and we're halfway there! Next, where do we find updates that we can push out over the top and how do we go about doing that silently?

      An MSI installer would be a nice first step to getting this going..

      We also don't want this sneaky updater that runs in the background - we'll keep our computers up to date, thanks.

    24. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by SageMusings · · Score: 1

      note that this isn't a knock against the language itself, but against the fact that while it was widely adopted, it was widely implemented by a lot of programmers who had no business being programmers (at least w/ lower-level languages, bad code tends to die off or get re-written much quicker).

      Sure and the legions that flocked to Java from trade schools and intro to CompSci 101 fared much better....

      --
      -- Posted from my parent's basement
    25. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Dogers · · Score: 1

      Care to share how you enforce settings in Firefox and others?

      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    26. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      What about Chrome Frame Plugin? You could get security (and speed, standards and some other etcs) in internet sites and old IE6 renderer for the intranet, all in the same browser.

    27. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      https://developer.mozilla.org/En/A_Brief_Guide_to_Mozilla_Preferences

      If the administrators can write to the application directory and prevent the user from doing so, then they can enforce profile settings in Firefox (and almost any Mozilla app).

    28. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Now I am an expert in this area but is this: (http://www.frontmotion.com/), not a centrally managed Firefox?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    29. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I believe most browsers run in user space.

    30. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      I change the icon for Firefox to the IE icon, and most users dont even notice it is not IE. Works great!

    31. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by techess · · Score: 1

      Our administrative staff actually love Firefox once we setup Forecastbar for them. Something about having the weather constantly displayed brings them inner joy and peace. Plus then they don't ask for Weatherbug which we have had problems with in the past.

      Unfortunately noscript was too difficult for the majority of them to grasp. Once they realized how to allow everything that is what they did. Go to a page, it doesn't work, & click allow. So we compromised and use Adblock & Flashblock. Doesn't protect from nearly as much as noscript, but less confusing.

      --
      Don't anthropomorphize computers. They *hate* that.
    32. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is you need to invest a lot of time, money and expertise into setting something like that. For a big shop like yours, that's no problem - the cost of initial setup is easily justified by the fact you have to manage 60k+ desktops and over 2,000 apps, and doing that manually would cost a fortune.

      Most of us aren't that large though. We've got maybe 150 desktops/laptops, which is enough to make managing them manually impractical, but not enough to justify purchasing and learning systems management and package management software and the ins and outs of crafting your own package for each application and so on.

      You say that "Firefox is just another app to us", but I'm sure you (or someone) spent a long time figuring out how to pull apart the installer and repackage it for your environment and to have everything working for the users but without giving them too much control over bits you want/need to manage centrally, and so on. Again, if you're already set up and have the knowledge of doing that for thousands of other apps, it's not too big a deal. But for us, nobody has that knowledge, and even if they did, nobody has the time to sit around working out how to repackage the application of the month; especially when it's only going to be required by a handful of people.

      So either you need to buy some fantastic systems management software ($$$) and hope the vendor supplies packages/scripts/instructions for packaging the apps you use; or you buy packaging tools and learn to do it yourself ($$ + time), or you just use the stuff the more-or-less works out of the box ($). It's no surprise then that most smaller shops use Microsoft's software across the board, and then manually manage installs of additional software in the few cases where they're really needed.

    33. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by sgtrock · · Score: 2, Informative

      No registry hacks are necessary to set configuration information in Firefox. It's all text files, the way God intended config files to be. :)

    34. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Why? Each application on a machine is that many more potential vulnerabilities which need to be managed for risks. If users are allowed to install applications that aren't managed by IT, they cannot guarantee the security of the network or the integrity of the systems. Google Chrome may have privacy issues which make it unacceptable for use, for example. Plus, it automatically updates, which may or may not cause problems of it's own (if it breaks, consumes too much network bandwidth, etc.).

      This was kind of the reason the user/admin dichotomy was created. It's pretty basic stuff. Chrome makes it easy for users to ignore IT policy by ignoring the conventions for Windows programs.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    35. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Yeah and it'd be awesome if there was a standard way to configure it to trust certain sites, certificates, etc, from group policy. And for said group policy to work cross-version or at least present all versions simultaneously. The group policy extensions for IE show 5-6, 7 and 8 simultaneously, for example.

    36. Re:Not fixing it in IE6... by sgtrock · · Score: 1

      You're clearly assuming a Windows centric view of system administration that spends more time re-inventing the wheel badly than it does in getting the job done. There are lots of other ways to accomplish the same task that are cross platform. Cross platform apps tend to prefer such methodologies. :)

      For example, since we are talking about text config files: Simply parse and insert the correct verbiage in a template file once. Package it with your favorite distribution tool and you're done.

      Need to update a text file company wide? Just push it.

      Need to automatically create a diff and only insert changes? That's a solved problem and has been since Unix was first deployed more than 30 years ago. All of it triggerable in a multitude of ways.

  2. IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by vistapwns · · Score: 5, Informative

    Because DEP is enabled by default in IE8, unlike IE6 and IE7. The exploit can not work against IE8. Also, IE in modern versions of Windows is sandboxed, unlike Firefox. Sorry to rain on the parade...

    --
    "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    1. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by FlyingBishop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But even at Google they apparently have some stuff that requires them to disable it. You can bet a lot of the shops that can't ditch IE will have to disable DEP for backwards compatibility with the crappy apps that are the only reason they don't switch to something better anyway.

    2. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by vistapwns · · Score: 3, Informative

      And how are other browsers better in that case? If they have to disable DEP on firefox, it's even worse than IE because it's not sandboxed. Anyways, the articles I've been reading say Google was exploited thru IE6 that they have on XP systems.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    3. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

      If it has the flaw, then it's not immune but it's less vulnerable. If DEP is disabled (which may be required to get some apps to work), then IE8 can become exploited too.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    4. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by dunezone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And thats Microsofts fault how?

      Microsoft provides the ability to be up to date and secure as well as backwards compatibility, its the users risk for which he chooses not Microsofts.

    5. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      Well, I meant to say IE8 in the default configuration is immune. I thought that much would be obvious from the other information I posted...

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    6. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by KnownIssues · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Then why would Microsoft state that IE8 is vulnerable to this flaw? They don't seem to be known for exaggerating the vulnerability of their software. I'm sure I'm missing something here, I'm just sincerely not seeing why Microsoft would claim it would affect IE8 if they could make the opposite claim with any accuracy.

    7. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe in the default configuration but every place I've worked, IT changes the configuration of IE due to needs of the company. Home users might not okay with using default configuration but some companies will not be.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    8. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by should_be_linear · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And how are other browsers better in that case?
      This whole problem is based on fact that MS is not willing/able to fix this issue for quite long time (days?). Other browsers are different in a way that they are fixing security issues ASAP.

      --
      839*929
    9. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Antiocheian · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sandboxing & virtualization of a sick browser is not a panacea. If the sandboxed application is compromised, it could still be controlled in its own domain and compromise cookies, passwords and anything else that it obtainable in its virtual space. It could still be used for malicious purposes, purposes that can could result in a knock on the door from the law.

      A hale and open sourced browser is the only safe way to go. Screw IE, any version.

      Was it not the browser that would install keyloggers and dialers through the press of the [Enter] key as it would default on installation of any "signed" ActiveX, not matter how fucked up it was? Yes! Did these people have any idea of what was happening on the Internet? Yes! Fuckit, the said, system-browser integration is not debatable; Microsoft had their fun killing Netscape, now we have our fun watching them trying to fix the mess. (They wont).

    10. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      That's sad if true, but there's only so much MS can do here. It has the ability to be secure, and it's secure by default, if the user goes and breaks that purposefully because they are too cheap to upgrade their applications, that's on the user, not microsoft. I've run Vista for 3 years and Win 7 for half a year and have never run into a plug-in that didn't work with DEP or Protected Mode, despite copious amounts of web surfing, so what I can I say..

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    11. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by vistapwns · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IE is used by corporations, and corporations do not want patches for patches for hotfixes and all that jazz, they expect the patch to be tested and corporations are the ones who wanted a monthly release for patches so the IT staff are not patching and testing patches all month long.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    12. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Informative

      True, DEP is enabled by default on the Win 7 / IE8 combo. OTOH, neither will run (very well, anyway) a horde of old enterprise services and suites that still linger about the industry, compatibility modes be damned.

      There are fixes and workarounds, but they can get rather expensive (and usually involve an XP Mode server of sorts, or Terminal Services seat licenses, etc).

      Long story short, there's either gonna be a lot of code that will get re-written, or a lot of businesses that will hang on to IE6 until then.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    13. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A security fix which breaks other required functionality isn't much better though is it? A patch rushed out the door without much testing isn't a patch I necessarly want to install.

    14. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by should_be_linear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Having radio button somewhere that makes your OS vulnerable to _KNOWN_ exploit is really stupid idea.

      --
      839*929
    15. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DEP relies on hardware support, i.e. the processor must be able to flag memory as non-executable. Support for this flag is not available in AMD Athlon processors (pre-Athlon64), some Intel Pentium 4 processors and a few others. Yes, those are old, but they're still out there.

    16. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by should_be_linear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      OK, so Microsoft is opting for backwards compatibility, other browsers for security. And your original question was: And how are other browsers better in that case?

      --
      839*929
    17. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by xeoron · · Score: 1

      The only solution from a security and user standpoint is to sandbox all programs you think need it. I suggest using the Windows program Sandboxie, unless someone can offer a better method that is OSS for the MS Win platform.

    18. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sandboxing & virtualization of a sick browser is not a panacea. If the sandboxed application is compromised, it could still be controlled in its own domain and compromise cookies, passwords and anything else that it obtainable in its virtual space. It could still be used for malicious purposes, purposes that can could result in a knock on the door from the law.

      Sandboxing and virtualization are sane for ANY application which is processing content from untrusted sources, regardless of whether you think them secure or not.

      A hale and open sourced browser is the only safe way to go. Screw IE, any version.

      Right, because FF hasn't had any major security holes. Open source does not mean secure. It means you can see the code.

      Was it not the browser that would install keyloggers and dialers through the press of the [Enter] key as it would default on installation of any "signed" ActiveX, not matter how fucked up it was? Yes! Did these people have any idea of what was happening on the Internet? Yes! Fuckit, the said, system-browser integration is not debatable; Microsoft had their fun killing Netscape, now we have our fun watching them trying to fix the mess. (They wont).

      Ignoring the fact that they've come along way in both securing the browser and supporting standards shows nothing they do would make you happy. I think the problem is that you're upset that, even with problems in MS software, people would STILL rather use it than your favorite OS.

      Also, I haven't seen any indication that they aren't working on a fix. What will you say if the patch comes out? oh ya, it took way too long, they should have rushed it out without any kind of testing, like open source does.

    19. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree 100%, even though I use Iron myself.* That said, this particular bug was solved in 1995: in that year Visual Basic 4.0 came out, and in VB it's impossible to reference dead objects unless you're linking with C++ code. So this whole class of bugs could be entirely eliminated by using a programming language that has proper semantics for allocating and freeing objects. You could even extend C++ if you want to stick with that, but anyway the problem has been solved for at least 15 years. It's just that people aren't using the solution.
      * I thus also think it's a disgrace that the German and French government are urging people to drop IE; it's undue market interference and it shows that the Microsoft bashing of the various European governmental bodies isn't fueled by consumer protection or upholding of justice, but by a general dislike of Microsoft. If you think that's a good thing, and there is nothing wrong with the fact that they're allowed to act like this, think again. What if they turn against you or some cause you're sympathetic with, there's nothing you can do because proper checks apparently aren't in place.

    20. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      These would be the same people that turned on "Allow unsigned ActiveX controls" and had a pirated version of windows, so they never got their ActiveX killbits information installed.

      I'm not totally blaming the user, but most of the exploited folks are running unpatched, pirated windows versions with every option turned off just to make it "easier" to usw (say UAC)

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    21. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by benjymouse · · Score: 1

      They don't seem to be known for exaggerating the vulnerability of their software. I'm sure I'm missing something here, I'm just sincerely not seeing why Microsoft would claim it would affect IE8 if they could make the opposite claim with any accuracy.

      Actually, Microsoft has a policy of not taking protected mode, low integrity processes, DEP/NX, ASLR and other memory corruption protection mechanisms into consideration when assigning severity levels or reporting bugs.

      This means that MS reports the bug as being in IE8, but the several layers of extra protection in both IE8 and Vista/7 may very well neuter it completely.

      --
      Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
    22. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Shhhh. Quite... We want to live in a world were every Microsoft bug will remain unfix and slowly become so problematic that we can life fat dumb and happy with the alternatives.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    23. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is horseshit.

    24. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by lseltzer · · Score: 1

      If the user is on Vista or Win7 they'll have to disable protected mode as well in order for the exploit to be able to do anything meaningful.

      So if a user running IE6 on XP, who doesn't enable DEP gets exploited, who is really to blame? This is an ancient configuration and Microsoft has, for a long time, provided products and technologies to address the problems in it.

    25. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      A security fix which breaks other required functionality isn't much better though is it?

      Joe Sixpack might be upset, but yes, it is _much_ better then leaving your computer vulnerable.

      --
      839*929
    26. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      At the very least I'd expect a hotfix that disables the button for the time being, with info to their customers that those who need the functionality should not apply it but have to be aware they're vulnerable.

      Sounds like a good solution to me.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by conureman · · Score: 1

      "Other measures recommended by Microsoft include running the browser in Protected Mode and ensuring users aren't running with administrator privileges."
      Translate to: "Don't blame us, it's the fucking lusers who operate their browsers in default mode."
      So they're not Evil, or Incompetent, it's us!

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    28. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      I'm not totally blaming the user, but most of the exploited folks are

      using Internet Explorer. Period.

    29. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by JerryLove · · Score: 1

      Sandboxing & virtualization of a sick browser is not a panacea.

      No, but it's better than not sandboxed.

      I notice you don't mention that IE8 is not actually vunerable unless you reconfigure it that way because DEP is on.

      A hale and open sourced browser is the only safe way to go. Screw IE, any version.

      Because those have no bugs?

    30. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Antiocheian · · Score: 0, Troll

      Ignoring the fact that they've come along way in both securing the browser and supporting standards shows nothing they do would make you happy.

      This guy is talking about Microsoft ?

      Somebody give me a clue, please.

    31. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jim_v2000 · · Score: 1

      Browser security is great in theory, but the last two infections I cleaned up at work were from people downloading Flash_Update.exe and running it so they could watch some video from "Santa" that they got in their email.

      --
      Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
    32. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jim_v2000 · · Score: 1

      That said, I'm lobbying my boss to make all of our users "users". Some of them bitched about not being able to install things awhile back, so they were given administrator rights. That turned out well.

      --
      Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
    33. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      OK, so Microsoft is opting for backwards compatibility, other browsers for security. And your original question was: And how are other browsers better in that case?

      One could argue that, in the corporate IT world, Microsoft's known patch schedule is more desirable than random updates from Mozilla appearing whenever they're finished.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    34. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even though you're being sarcastic, to an extent you're correct. It is the fault of corporate IT, not Microsoft, that IE6 and IE7 are in such wide use and being exploited, when everyone should already be running on IE8. It would be the same situation as if you had tons of people running Firefox 1.5 and refusing to upgrade because it would break something they're used to, despite being vulnerable to a series of known problems. In that situation it's not Mozilla's fault that their user base hasn't upgraded any more than it's Microsoft's fault now.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    35. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Ralish · · Score: 5, Informative

      They are aiming for both backwards compatibility and security, but above all, they are aiming to put out a fix that isn't broke. I'm honestly not trying to be the Microsoft apologist here, but the complexity of putting out a patch for IE is a lot more complex than you might first think, even compared to other browsers. Here's why:

      Using Firefox as an example, when Mozilla finds a security flaw in Firefox, they simply release a new point release of all supported versions of Firefox (currently 3.0 and 3.5) that contains the fix, as well as all previous fixes, and usually several other security/stability fixes bundled into that particular point release. So, this means a release across two product versions, which can be expanded to releasing on the architectures supported for those particular versions as well as supported platforms. The source code change probably isn't architecture or platform specific (wrong?) so can thus be inserted into the correct maintenance trees in the source repository and the binaries/sources made available.

      Using Microsoft as an example, when Microsoft finds a security flaw in Internet Explorer, they need to patch every supported version of IE on every supported version of Windows down to specific IE patch level possibly also impacted by Windows patch level. For a security flaw like this that affects IE6 through IE8, that means patches for every version of Windows from 2000 to 7, for every architecture (x86, x86_64, ia64), for numerous patch levels. For example, in many versions of Windows two separate patch levels of IE might be simultaneously supported (e.g. IE6 SP1 on Windows 2000 and IE6 SP2(SP3?) on XP). Keep in mind that the binaries for the same exact patch level of IE on two different versions of Windows on the same architecture are highly unlikely to be the same (e.g. IE7 on XP will not be the same as IE7 on Vista, nor will the patch binaries be the same, and OS SP level may also make a difference). Versions of Internet Explorer on Windows CE/Mobile might also be impacted resulting in further patch complexity. Oh, and x64 versions of Windows (and ia64?) have both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions installed side-by-side, due to issues with plug-in compatibility (you can't load 32-bit code into a 64-bit application). So, you'll need to patch both versions on 64-bit platforms, and once again, the 32-bit binaries for 64-bit systems are unlikely to be identical to the 32-bit binaries for 32-bit systems. In summary, we are talking a huge number of binary patches that all need to be thoroughly tested, passed through regression suites, and so forth, because if even one of these patches breaks something, odds are, you'll have a lot of pissed off users.

      That being said, this is largely Microsoft's fault. By integrating the browser so closely to the OS, they've managed to create this complexity. A clean(er) separation of web browser from OS internals would, while not making things simple, would surely reduce the current clusterfuck. Doing so would bring you much closer to the model that most (every?) other web browser uses, and should drastically reduce the amount of testing that would need to be done. For now, this isn't the case, and the present reality is that patching every version of IE since 2001 is a very messy business.

    36. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by edxwelch · · Score: 1, Informative

      DEP is not exclusive to IE8. You can enable it system wide if you want. However, DEP is only good for this particular exploit. It's possible to write a exploit that circumvents both DEP and sandboxing

    37. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's clear that you need one. Maybe you could start by changing your worldview that all open source software is secure by virtue of being open source, and all proprietary software is crap. Maybe a look at Opera would prove otherwise. If you're not aware of the several security features which Microsoft has added to Windows 7 and IE8 (not to mention much-needed support for several missing standards), then maybe you can make yourself familiar with those before claiming that everything which you can't read the code for is insecure.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    38. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by cvtan · · Score: 0

      No 64-bit support for WIN7 with Sandboxie.

      --
      Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
    39. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by TiberiusMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ignoring the fact that they've come along way in both securing the browser and supporting standards shows nothing they do would make you happy.

      Yes of course, the largest computer software company in the world should be given a hearty slap on the back for "coming a long way". I mean, they're only the standards that everyone else is following it's not like they matter.

    40. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I'm not totally blaming the user, but most of the exploited folks are running unpatched, pirated windows versions

      Can you show the numbers from your survey where you asked everyone who got exploited if they're running a pirated version? I'm interested to see just how much more than 50% of them are pirated.

      "Everyone is the same. Quick to point the blame. All I know is that life is a struggle"

      Hmm, indeed..

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    41. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Long story short, there's either gonna be a lot of code that will get re-written, or a lot of businesses that will hang on to IE6 until then.

      That's not either/or, that's and. There will be a lot of code rewritten, AND a lot of business hanging on to IE6 until then, AND a lot of them getting exploited in the mean time. I wonder if it's cheaper to upgrade your internal applications so that they'll work with every browser for the next 10 years, or clean up a company-wide infection (and then rewrite the code anyway).

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    42. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't upgrade IE6 on windows 2000 to IE7 or IE8. Nope, I don't plan to move to newer windows OS'. To much money for those OS'. So MSOFT I'll upgrade IE6 if you provide IE8 on windows 2000.

    43. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Open Source is the cure... Firefix has more security problems than IE has. Perhaps not as critical as this, but it's plenty buggy and insecure, it's also vert bloated.

      A good example of Closed Source is Opera, it's fast (VERY fast), it's also well featured and has a very good track record for security. It's also web standards compliant, and available on a HUGE amount of platforms, from PCs to consoles to mobile phones.

    44. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Not just Joe Sixpack, but Mr. Corp as well. Breaking REQUIRED functionality is less desirable than the security vunerablity, especially if there are other means (like simply not going to untrusted sites).

    45. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Except that there are times where you can't update your browser because some line-of-business application is only compatible with IE6. IT is probably chomping at the bit to upgrade, but can't until the business either finds a replacement app or the vendor makes updates.

      IT is demonized for decisions that they didn't always have a part in.

    46. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, IE8 has the flaw but is immune on certain hardware. DEP is pretty much useless when the processor/BIOS doesn't support it.

      If IE8 is vulnerable on any hardware--which it is--then it's vulnerable and needs to be fixed. As with any security advisory, the vendor needs to take all of their customers into account, and individual administrators need to carefully read the advisory considering their knowledge of their systems to assess their actual vulnerability to the issue.

    47. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Firefox is not sandboxed, but chrome is even in older versions of windows...

      The current exploit doesn't work against IE8, but the vulnerability is there so another version could be written. DEP just make exploitation harder, as does the sandboxing.

      The current exploit doesn't work against firefox, chrome or safari either... And all of these browsers will benefit from DEP (and the equivalents on other platforms) if the host has it enabled.

      A lot of these companies are using IE because they are locked in to various intranet apps which don't work on any standards compliant browser, some of these apps don't work with IE8 (or 7 in some cases) and sometimes require you to turn features like sandboxing off in order to make them run. Microsoft's legacy of shoddily written apps designed to lock people in is still causing all kinds of damage.

      Had MS not pursued this strategy, and made IE a standards compliant browser from the start, users would be free to upgrade to the latest version or switch to another browser...
      If there was diversity and standards among corporate desktops, these attacks would have been a lot harder, the fact that 99% of corporate targets run windows+ie+msoffice massively increases the value of an exploit for any of those, and makes it much easier to attack (no need for multiple exploits or multiple attack methods).

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    48. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Why was google running ie6 on xp anyway?
      The only reason to be running an old version like this, is if they were tied in to proprietary apps that don't work in newer versions or anything else, and it is microsoft who worked very hard to get third parties to write apps that were tied to ie6...
      Had these apps been standards compliant from the start, then there would be no reason for anyone to still be running ie6...

      This should be a lesson to everyone, follow standards and don't buy in to proprietary non standard crap... Getting locked in may be convenient in the short term, but long term it will always hurt you.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    49. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      Oh boy ... Neither DEP not NX guarantees anything, so it really can work.

      Sure, NX & DEP are very good tools in making the browser safer, but they are no silver bullet ("return to c-lib").

      P.S. some OS's (hint, hint) have NX on (practically?) every program, as they do ASLR (address space randomization).

    50. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Oh, and x64 versions of Windows (and ia64?) have both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions installed side-by-side, due to issues with plug-in compatibility (you can't load 32-bit code into a 64-bit application).

      That's something I really don't understand. Linux desktop developers have solved this ages ago (nspluginwrapper), and it's a rather obvious approach in any case. Why isn't this in any Windows browser yet?

    51. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by smisle · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the fact that they've come along way in both securing the browser and supporting standards shows nothing they do would make you happy.

      Yes, they have come a long way, but they're really just at the starting line, and about 3 years behind. It has nothing to do with Open Source or not. Chrome, Safari and Opera are all great browsers compared to IE8. Yay! they have CSS2 support .... oh, so has everyone else, and they're already working through CSS3. It makes IE8 look simplistic. Add to that the annoying UI for XP users -- if you turn on the file menus, you can't move them above the address line / back and forward buttons - WTH? There's no reason for that. AND it's slow staring up for some reason - I feel like it's dialing home every time I start it up. It should do that discreetly (or not at all) when I am waiting for something else to load, rather than forcing me to wait before I can start my browsing. I can start up IE8, then start up Firefox AND Chrome and get them to do a web search before IE8 is ready to go. Bleh. This has nothing to do with being a fan of linux or open source, it has do do with wanting a browser that works.

      --
      I'm not a bird, I'm a super-advanced flying stealth dinosaur!
    52. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could start by changing your worldview that all open source software is secure by virtue of being open source, and all proprietary software is crap. Maybe a look at Opera would prove otherwise.

      How exactly am I supposed to look at Opera's code to determine its security status? With a disassembler?

      If you're not aware of the several security features which Microsoft has added to Windows 7 and IE8 (not to mention much-needed support for several missing standards), then maybe you can make yourself familiar with those before claiming that everything which you can't read the code for is insecure.

      How exactly am I supposed to make myself familiar with security features for which I can't read the source code?

      Even with source code, evaluating security is a very difficult undertaking. I can't imagine how this task is any easier without source code.

    53. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      That being said, this is largely Microsoft's fault. By integrating the browser so closely to the OS, they've managed to create this complexity. A clean(er) separation of web browser from OS internals would, while not making things simple, would surely reduce the current clusterfuck.

      But they'd *still* have to update the MSHTML.DLL library (the integrated part) as well as the browser itself... otherwise the exploit would just move from web sites to compiled help files. I mean, if your exploit won't work in IE proper, maybe it works fine if you view the same page through, say, Steam's browser.

      The only real thing you can blame Microsoft for, IMO, is encouraging applications to use IE's rendering library to render HTML. But... what's the alternative? Every HTML-using application on your computer has its own browser core? How many security vulnerabilities would we have now?

      I agree entirely that integrating Windows Explorer with MSHTML.DLL was a bad idea, especially since the benefits were so nebulous. (Ability to natively open FTP sites as if they were folders, and Active Desktop which nobody used. And the former was easy to implement without MSHTML.DLL.)

      But personally I think this is more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. There's nothing wrong with the OS providing a service as universal as "viewing HTML content", and every non-Windows OS does that as well.

    54. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by zx-15 · · Score: 1

      However, it would have been Mozilla's fault if Firefox 1.5 had rendered HTML and Java script the way IE6 does, and had a bunch of Firefox 1.5-only extensions that wouldn't be rendered properly in any other browser, furthermore, Mozilla sold Firefox 1.5-only server side solution which would only work with Firefox 1.5 and would be pain to upgrade. Am I forgetting anything?

      Can I haz car analogy?

    55. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      How exactly am I supposed to look at Opera's code to determine its security status?

      I didn't say you look at Opera's code to determine its security status. You could start by looking at their security record.

      How exactly am I supposed to make myself familiar with security features for which I can't read the source code?

      These are documented features. Why do I have to explain that?

      If you want to evaluate the security of something, say Firefox, do you download the entire source code and audit it personally? Or maybe you look up things like the previous security record, documentation about what's been added since the last release, etc..

      Now I'm not claiming that Opera or IE are secure. I'm claiming that not having access to the source code does not automatically make a piece of software insecure. The security of the software does not change before and after you look at the code.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    56. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      IT is demonized for decisions that they didn't always have a part in.

      I would argue that IT did have a part, when they were asked to help design or approve the software. If management leaves IT out of the loop then that's management's fault, if IT was asked and approved then that's IT reaping what they sow.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    57. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      No, it's still not Mozilla's (or Microsoft's) fault that people and businesses have failed to upgrade. The businesses made the decision to peg all of their internal processes to IE6, not Microsoft.

      I'm also not aware of a server-side language which has anything to do with the user agent. ASP and ASP.NET do not require IE, if someone made a web application which only works in IE, it's because the developer made poor choices.

      Again, not Microsoft. Microsoft deserves a lot of blame and scorn for IE6, but they don't deserve the blame for their customers refusing to upgrade, or having created shortsighted applications pegged to a single browser version.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    58. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Because the backwards compatibility doesn't always work...
      Lots of vendors followed microsoft's pushing and made apps which were locked in to IE, intended to lock out other browsers...
      But these apps also don't always work with current versions of IE, forcing users to run older versions or configure the latest version in a less than ideal manner.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    59. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      How exactly am I supposed to look at Opera's code to determine its security status?

      I didn't say you look at Opera's code to determine its security status. You could start by looking at their security record.

      I don't see how relying on a security record alone is superior to relying on both security record and the code. It's not the case that the two are mutually exclusive.

      How exactly am I supposed to make myself familiar with security features for which I can't read the source code?

      These are documented features. Why do I have to explain that?

      Are you saying that documented features are always right? That documentation is always right? That's an incredible, almost ludicrous, claim.

      If you want to evaluate the security of something, say Firefox, do you download the entire source code and audit it personally?

      If your argument is that evaluating security using the source code is already too hard, then again I can't possibly fathom how lacking access to the source code would make the job any easier.

    60. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Because it doesn't work 100%.

    61. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      The only thing I'm arguing is that the lack of available source code does not automatically make a program insecure. That is the beginning and end of my argument.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    62. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The real solution is not open source browsers specifically...

      The real solution is diversity.
      All software will have bugs, but they are a lot more difficult to exploit if there are a handful of different browsers running on a handful of different platforms and hardware architectures that your targets could be running. Also, having an even split in the market would force all the different software makers to compete on quality... If one vendors drags their feet they will face losing lots of market share... MS can drag their feet without risk of losing anything right now because people are locked in to them.

      The attacks recently succeeded proved the dangers of monoculture, if your a hacker looking to target any large corporation or government you can be sure that your target will be running windows/ie/msoffice so one exploit, trojan and skillset will suffice against any number of targets.

      Nature has proven the importance of diversity...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    63. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      No it’s not. It’s called freedom.

      What’s a stupid idea, is to make it accessible without you having to jump to enough hoops to weed out the incompetent, and end it with a “Don’t change this, unless you know what you are doing‘

      That’s why the Linux kernel is secure, despite there being tons of options in there to make it vulnerable like a sieve.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    64. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is only a half-truth. Corporations almost never install new versions of IE because invariably they all use some half-assed piece of software that runs in an IE browser or is otherwise dependent on IE in such a way that installing a new version of IE will break the mission-critical application. Either they have some shitty internal web site or some old-ass piece of software that is either no longer supported or they have refused to update because doing so is such a pain in the ass. Or they are dependent on someone else's half-assed web site whom they do business with that won't function in a newer version of IE. From an IT guy's point of view, it is EASY to roll out new versions of IE. It's the other idiots' software that is the roadblock to doing so. Who's to blame here?

      First off it's Microsoft. If they didn't change their browser in such a fundamental way that it breaks dependent applications every time a new one is installed, then we IT people could roll out the newest versions without fear of breaking some POS application somewhere.

      Secondly it's the software vendors. If they didn't write their POS applications in such a way as to make them fundamentally bound to dependencies of IE, then we could upgrade the browser at will without breaking their POS apps.

      Thirdly, its the corporations' fault themselves for dragging their feet on upgrading said POS applications whenever and wherever they can in order to stay up on the latest and greatest version that will support newer versions of IE. The pervasive attitude of virtually every corporation is to not upgrade what isn't broke which over the long term turns your entire operating system environment into a stagnant cesspool of complacency festering on older versions, a hacker/phisher's playground. The greedy software vendors again take part of the blame here because most of said corporations do not want to shell out the bazillion $$$$ that it takes to upgrade to the newest version of POS Application X for features they can live without.

      Lastly its my fault as an IT person for not forcibly ramming these types of updates down the corporations' throats. And yes I am a jaded IT guy because I see shit like this happening all the time and I lack the real power to do anything behind it because my department is not generating the revenue, we are an expense so our word goes in one ear and out the other when our word would force the corporation to lose out on business.

    65. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      The only thing I'm arguing is that the lack of available source code does not automatically make a program insecure. That is the beginning and end of my argument.

      It certainly wasn't the end of your argument as originally stated. You went on to encourage people to look at Opera and Internet Explorer from the point of view of security. This is basically impossible without source code. One cannot usefully evaluate the security of a program without source code. (It's difficult to do even with the source code, but without the source code, it's impossible.)

      To put it another way, even if some closed source programs are secure, it doesn't matter, since you have no way to tell which ones are secure and which ones are not. Relying on the so-called "previous security record" is a joke -- it's absurd to argue that a record of security (which is derived from third party security breaches) is any more reliable than third parties reviewing the code directly. If you don't trust third parties to review the code, then why do you trust them to establish its security record?

    66. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yea, after reading the article (some of us do) I found that this summary is a piss poor one, more aimed at bashing MS than giving the real facts. We don't need to make up imaginary reasons to hate MS, they already provide plenty of real reasons.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    67. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      If you want to continue, then I would argue that the fact that Opera's security record shows only a handful of vulnerabilities which have all been patched implies that Opera is relatively secure. If it was not relatively secure, then there would be more known vulnerabilities. Consequently, the lack of known vulnerabilities, for all intents and purposes, qualifies a piece of software as secure (for the moment, at least). It doesn't matter practically if a piece of software has a vulnerability which no is able to exploit because no one knows about it. Your attempts at trying to establish program security with 100% accuracy are simply academic, what matters is what happens in the real world. A program's past record of events is a good indication of the developer's competence in producing quality software.

      If you don't trust third parties to review the code

      I do. I don't require a personal code audit of every program I run.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    68. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying that because IE runs on several Windows versions, even both 32 and 64 bit versions, it's automatically much more difficult to patch, build, test and deploy than Firefox?
      Guess what, Firefox runs on several WIndows versions, and OSX versions too! And have you seen how many different linux distros there are out there right now? It'll blow your mind!

    69. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Ability to natively open FTP sites as if they were folders

      Yeah, Emacs had that in the eighties. By the time IE5 came out it could also transparently access remote directories and files via a number of other protocols, including ssh.

      > and Active Desktop which nobody used

      ITYM which nobody used *on purpose*.

      People *frequently* got it turned on by mistake, often without even realizing it, typically because trying to use a JPEG or PNG image as wallpaper prompted you to turn it on and they just mindlessly clicked yes (as in, "yes, I want to put this picture on my wallpaper") without realizing the consequences. Then when random weird stuff started happening (e.g., all their icons disappeared), they didn't know why.

      > There's nothing wrong with the OS providing a service
      > as universal as "viewing HTML content"

      If it had only been plain old HTML content that it rendered (not also plugins and ActiveX and who only knows what else), it wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

      Don't get me wrong: I'm very happy with IE8 as an upgrade from earlier versions of IE. As a webmaster, I am thrilled that I no longer have to maintain an entire extra stylesheet just to tell IE *not* to do a bunch of hopelessly stupid things that no other browser would ever contemplate doing. I consider IE8 to be a great success in that regard. And yeah, from a security standpoint, it's not perfect, but it's MUCH better than IE6.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    70. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Emacs had that in the eighties. By the time IE5 came out it could also transparently access remote directories and files via a number of other protocols, including ssh.

      What do you want, a cookie? How is this relevant? Who gives a shit?

      ITYM which nobody used *on purpose*.

      I used it on purpose. It was a quick and easy way to get a different background image on each desktop if you had multiple monitors. (Something which is virtually impossible now that it's been removed, I might add.) Also, putting goofy Flash movies on your desktop was a hoot.

      I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying in retrospect it's not useful *enough* to justify IE-Explorer integration.

      Hell, arguably the "widgets" craze of the last 5 years was just a rehash of Active Desktop, just presented in a slightly different way. What's the difference between a "widget" and a piece of Active Desktop content? Nada.

      Then when random weird stuff started happening (e.g., all their icons disappeared), they didn't know why.

      I don't know why, either. What are you talking about?

      If it had only been plain old HTML content that it rendered (not also plugins and ActiveX and who only knows what else), it wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

      Not AS much, but still one. A ton of exploits were/are in the code that renders images, which you need even if you're "just" parsing HTML. If you expand that to CSS also, you open up a new vector again.

      And anyway, applications like Steam would be impossible of MSHTML.DLL didn't run plug-ins.

      I consider IE8 to be a great success in that regard. And yeah, from a security standpoint, it's not perfect, but it's MUCH better than IE6.

      Now if only people would upgrade their 9 year old computers.

    71. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter practically if a piece of software has a vulnerability which no is able to exploit because no one knows about it.

      This view of computer security is overly simplistic and naive. There are certain important categories of vulnerabilities (such as intentionally placed backdoors) which, since they are deliberately hidden, can easily be exploited even if the public does not know about it, and yet which are trivial to defeat with open source.

      A program's past record of events is a good indication of the developer's competence in producing quality software.

      I include community acceptance and review of source code as one of the criteria that are factored into a program's past record. It's surprising that you don't.

    72. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry, but Microsoft retains the lion's share of the blame by virtue of writing a thoroughly non-standards-compliant browser that required, at every bend, browser-specific workarounds which are not compatible with later releases.

      I'm currently working for an organisation with literally ten thousand plus web applications originally written for IE6. We've been working to migrate them to IE7 since Vista RC (over three years, wow, time flies) and are about a year over deadline for our Vista SOE release as a result.

      Some might conclude that more resources should have been thrown at the migration, and undoubtedly this would have sped things up. However in the corporate world, doing things quickly takes a back seat to doing things profitably; everyone should not be already running IE8 over IE6 if doing so incurs a loss.

      Would the cost of speeding the migration have exceeded the cost of extending support for IE6, plus the security and other costs of running an older OS/browser platform not under general support? Honestly I don't know, but the higher-ups here seemed to think so, and they're in a better position to judge than I.

      What's more IE6 is still under extended support, saying "upgrade to IE8 or wait until patch Tuesday" just doesn't fly when you're spending tens of thousands of dollars annually on support.

      Of course all of these details are invisible when you don't actually work in or have exposure to the types of corporations still running IE6. It easier to blame the situation on incompetent IT across the board than to understand the challenges involved.

      Insightful my arse.

    73. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      It's surprising that you don't.

      What's with you putting words into my mouth? Is that what I said? I don't think so. I said "good indication", not "only factor". I'm not dealing in absolutes here. I'm not saying that any one thing is necessary to always be secure, or always be vulnerable. Yeah, code audits help. But that doesn't mean that for every single program where the code is not audited by a third party that it's always automatically insecure.

      In other words, code audits help, but they aren't required in every single situation for a program to be secure. I'll point back to Opera as an example again. I can look at the vulnerability record and feel secure that I'm not going to get hit with a virus while I'm browsing (at least not through Opera, I can't say the same for Flash), and I don't need a code audit to tell me that. Fact is, I trust Opera Software enough to put out a quality product to help keep their good reputation, and my years of using their products has given me the experience to notice that I've never had Opera used as an attack vector.

      Again, I can't say the same for Adobe and Flash, Adobe apparently could use a lot of help identifying and fixing problems. But that's a problem at Adobe, that's not due to the fact that their software is closed-source. If it was due to the fact that their software is closed-source, then you could expect the same level of security in all closed-source software.

      Your view of this seems very black-and-white. There are many factors to consider when you decide if a piece of software is vulnerable, and code audits and the history are only pieces of that. A lack of either does not necessarily make a program insecure.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    74. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by yuhong · · Score: 1

      typically because trying to use a JPEG or PNG image as wallpaper prompted you to turn it on and they just mindlessly clicked yes (as in, "yes, I want to put this picture on my wallpaper") without realizing the consequences.

      BTW, MS finally fixed this in Vista.

    75. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by praseodym · · Score: 1

      So what about when DEP is not even available? Many older computers don't have CPUs with NX-bit support. AMD has only had them since AMD64 and Intel since later Pentium 4 iterations. There are enough boxes with those CPUs still running fine.

    76. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by yacc143 · · Score: 1

      Well, and we are always told how bad it is to have a gazillion of Linux distributions ;)

      yacc

    77. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignoring the fact that they've come along way in both securing the browser and supporting standards shows nothing they do would make you happy. I think the problem is that you're upset that, even with problems in MS software, people would STILL rather use it than your favorite OS.

      Sir, every time Microsoft releases a new OS for the masses, every time they release a new Internet Explorer. I only need to take five seconds to find a problem with this whole "supporting standards" issue you speak of. I developed a html using CSS 2 that Firefox rendered perfectly years ago, and still does today. IE8 still messes it up. IE8 is STILL Internet Explorer, in regards to CSS.

      If Internet Explorer supported standards, why is it so easy to break IE6/7/8 by casually coding CSS/HTML strictly by w3c.org documentation? I'm not saying doing funky fancy DHTML like stuff, just everyday common CSS!

      IE8 is better than 6/7. I will give Microsoft the "we have inched forward" badge but it's an INCH, everyone else is miles ahead while still accelerating.

    78. Re:IE8 has the flaw but is immune... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > > Then when random weird stuff started happening (e.g., all
      > > their icons disappeared), they didn't know why.
      >
      > I don't know why, either.

      Nobody does. Some programmer on the Active Desktop project went to work drunk one day, would be my guess.

      > What are you talking about?

      Oh, I thought you knew, since you were talking about Active Desktop.

      In Windows 98, if Active Desktop got turned on, it did arbitrary weird stuff from time to time, without provocation. Most of the misbehavior involved subverting the normal functionality of explorer.exe in some way, but since explorer.exe is responsible for such a huge percentage of the Windows UI, its being the culprit was not always immediately obvious. One day you'd turn the computer on, and the shortcut icons on your desktop would all be gone. No recycle bin, no My Computer, nothing. Another day you'd be using the computer and all of a sudden, right in the middle of whatever you were doing, the taskbar would just vanish. These are just examples. Whatever Active Desktop did, it was generally unexpected and unwanted, the kind of stuff that would make you think somebody was playing a prank on your computer. Once you turned Active Desktop off, everything would go back to normal. I saw this any number of times, on various computers, over the years Windows 98 was popular. Typically it happened when the user downloaded an image from the internet and didn't know they needed to convert it to a bmp before using it as wallpaper. Two or three days later, bang, weird stuff started happening.

      As far as I know, this doesn't happen in Windows XP, though I've never left Active Desktop turned on long enough to be really sure about that. But we have a number of XP systems at work, so if it did happen on XP, I'd probably know by now.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  3. Always Look on the Bright Side of Life by sznupi · · Score: 1

    ...or Death

    Security theater to keep people on their, similarly defective, latest product is the best thing MS could do for now, it seems. I'm waiting for comment from Bruce Schneier...

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  4. What?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the vulnerability exists as an invalid pointer reference within Internet Explorer. It is possible under certain conditions for the invalid pointer to be accessed after an object is deleted. In a specially-crafted attack, in attempting to access a freed object, Internet Explorer can be caused to allow remote code execution.

    Is this an ActiveX thing? I mean how the hell do you get the pointer in the first place? And how do you keep the browser from page faulting?

    I'm so confused!

    1. Re:What?!?! by benjymouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is this an ActiveX thing?

      No, it doesn't appear so at this time. But it could be.

      I mean how the hell do you get the pointer in the first place? And how do you keep the browser from page faulting?

      I'm so confused!

      The attacker actually don't "get the pointer". He discovered some bug where IE would deallocate an object but still hold a pointer to it. A "dangling" pointer.

      The attacker then typically allocates *a lot* of other objects, hoping that they will take up the address pointed to by the "dangling" pointer. He will try to arrange the allocations such that the allocated "data" is actually attack code if ever executed as instructions. The attacker could hide attack code in string constants/buffers etc.

      Then he proceeds to prompt IE to actually *follow* the dangling pointer. If he's lucky (and skillful) IE will now hit something which was actually "data" - but when executed as CPU instruction it is actually malicious attack code.

      This is why DEP will kill this attack. As soon as the CPU is jumping into a NX memory block, it faults. And the heap/stack are marked as NX (DEP) in all recent MS OSes for IE8.

      --
      Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
  5. Marketing must be pleased by webdog314 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Software Engineer: "It's a complete mess... The vulnerability is present in IE6, 7, and 8 and it won't be an easy fix."

    Marketing Shill: "Excellent! Now they've no reason not to upgrade to IE8. Get out a Security Advisory at once!"

    1. Re:Marketing must be pleased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Software Engineer: "It's a complete mess... The vulnerability is present in IE6, 7, and 8 and it won't be an easy fix."

      Marketing Shill: "Excellent! Now they've no reason not to upgrade to IE8. Get out a Security Advisory at once!"

      Software Engineer: "Oddly enough, that makes good technical sense. Upgrading may not solve this particular problem, but it will eliminate many other vulnerabilities, as well as add sandboxing, thereby increasing security of the browser."

    2. Re:Marketing must be pleased by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, why did the software engineer let the marketing shill drive the company in the first place? It’s his own damn fault. Should have manned up and said “NO“.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  6. Upgrade by CxDoo · · Score: 1

    This whole article should be marked redundant. Whoever could upgrade to 8 did it.
    Some people just can not afford to do it; if it is a question IE6 or access to internet it will be IE6.

    --
    "Blah blah blah." - [citation needed]
    1. Re:Upgrade by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      They can't afford to do what? Rewrite their software? The alternative is to get exploited, then clean up the mess, then end up rewriting anyway to make sure you don't get exploited again.

      So, if we're talking about money, is it cheaper to:

      A) Rewrite the software
      B) Get exploited, clean up the mess, and rewrite the software

      It doesn't matter how long you wait, you're going to need to rewrite eventually. The question is how long you want to remain vulnerable before upgrading.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:Upgrade by Acaeris · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's not always possible to rewrite the software that is using IE6 (No access to the source code, None of the current IT department know the language the original software was written in).

      Where I work there is a similar problem. Although we can upgrade the OS and IE happily (and most use Chrome in our office), the core software for the company (Insurance based) runs in a terminal emulator and the company who code it exports data for the paperless office software through a method that is killed by DEP so we have to disable it to use the software. No amount of conversations with the software developers will get them to change how they do it as they prefer the export feature didn't exist and no, we can't use an alternative.

    3. Re:Upgrade by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's not always possible to rewrite the software that is using IE6 (No access to the source code, None of the current IT department know the language the original software was written in).

      That doesn't mean it's not possible. If nothing else, you can always do a ground-up redesign and rewrite. Applications could use that from time to time anyway. After several years I was able to talk my boss into letting me do that, we had 6 versions of an application running on ASP/Sql Server and I finally got everyone to agree to let me rewrite everything in PHP/MySQL. Not only was it a complete redesign and rewrite, but the software is faster and way more powerful, it has many new features that people need. It's also got a new Javascript interface which is orders of magnitude easier to use. Not having access to the code or having IT which has no clue what you were doing years ago doesn't mean you can't (or shouldn't) rewrite your outdated software.

      No amount of conversations with the software developers will get them to change how they do it as they prefer the export feature didn't exist and no, we can't use an alternative.

      C'mon, you know that's not true. Give me the specification for what you need your software to do and I'll tell you how much it will cost to build, and then you can tell the current "developers" (who apparently don't) where they can go.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    4. Re:Upgrade by Acaeris · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about a web app here. I'm talking about the core policy management database for our company which, for legal reasons, we cannot show another developer the database format so that they can rebuild it.

      We can't possibly migrate the entries from that database either as if we did, we'd have to manually migrate nearly half a million entries just from the last year (50 employee company, 4 in the IT department).

      The software company in question builds THE major system used by insurance companies. There are others but they were all custom built by banks from their internally built bank account management system.

      Note: As a UK insurance company, both the Data Protection Act and the FSA prevent us from allowing a third party access to the database.

  7. Vista, Win7 - really? by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even if the exploit is successful on IE8 on Vista or Win7, the reduced security mode that it runs in will prevent it from actually doing anything.

    Sure it may be able to crash the browser, or maybe screw with a favorite, but it can't access user files and especially can't do anything to the OS even if the exploit works.

    So saying it is a 'problem' on Vista or Win7 is stretching the truth.

    1. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also if you leave UAC on, it will be running as a normal user, not as an administrator. So if it broke out of the secure mode sandbox, it would still be limited to user data, no system access.

      By default, IE8 on 7 is pretty secure.

    2. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even if the exploit is successful on IE8 on Vista or Win7, the reduced security mode that it runs in will prevent it from actually doing anything.

      ...this time. It's the same excuse folks (wrongly) use to claim that *nix-based machinery is 100% invulnerable - true to an extent, but not perfectly so, on any OS. The problem is a little something called privilege escalation. This will likely be the next big thing that the folks at Microsoft will begin to discover, much to their horror.

      Microsoft has come a long way in securing their OS, but they still have a long way to go before claiming that their product is as secure as, say, FreeBSD or OSX.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by jim_v2000 · · Score: 1

      >This will likely be the next big thing that the folks at Microsoft will begin to discover, much to their horror. I'm sure they've never heard of that before.

      --
      Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
    4. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if it broke out of the secure mode sandbox, it would still be limited to user data, no system access.

      By default, IE8 on 7 is pretty secure.

      So it's ok if a buggy webpage can wipe out My Documents, so long as it doesn't break my system?

      I'm not sure many users would agree with you there.

    5. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty certain they know all about privilege escalation but don't say anything about it, relying on the fact that most of their users will read "improved security protections in IE8" and blissfully carry on with business as usual.

    6. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      It's just less potential damage over all. Same shit on Linux, by the way. If you get something that infects you as a normal user, it can wipe out your data. There's no magic Linux fairy that keeps it safe.

    7. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but I never said it did. The GP was inferring that that's "pretty secure". No, fixing the exploit would make it pretty secure. Running as non-admin doesn't fix the problem.

    8. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, OSX is always the first OS to fall during the Pwn2Own competition.

      Security through obscurity is not real protection.

      I will however, agree with you on the FreeBSD point.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    9. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by pyrbrand · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, on Vista and Win7, IE runs even lower privileged than normal user. It has no messaging access to any process not in limited mode, and no write access to any files not in the user's "local low" directory.

    10. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by anss123 · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, OSX is always the first OS to fall during the Pwn2Own competition.

      I don't consider OSX anymore secure than Windows but Pwn2Own is more about exploiting flash and browser vulnerabilities.

      Security through obscurity is not real protection.

      What is actually meant is that if the system depends on obscurity of the encryption and authentication algorithms it's not really secure. In other words a secure system can be "obscure" but should not have to be.

      I will however, agree with you on the FreeBSD point.

      FreeBSD has a good track record but can still fall to faulty applications running on top or good old fashioned "social engineering".

    11. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      Social engineering is the one threat that is probably the most dangerous and least protected against.

      I've tried to stress that over and over to higher ups, but they insist on two factor authentication with ridiculously strong passwords AND lockouts, and after I showed them I can create a DOS attack in about 5 minutes using lockout.... they changed their tunes :)

      Either way, you can't protect against a user's stupidity and that's the real inherent problem

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    12. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...this time. It's the same excuse folks (wrongly) use to claim that *nix-based machinery is 100% invulnerable - true to an extent, but not perfectly so, on any OS. The problem is a little something called privilege escalation. This will likely be the next big thing that the folks at Microsoft will begin to discover, much to their horror.

      The folks who write IE (as well as other MS developers) are very well aware of the nature privilege escalation vulnerabilities. This is effectively the required read around here, and, while rather high-level, it does give a good overview of these kinds of attacks.

      Regardless, more security layers are always better, especially when you can't guarantee the code to be absolutely, definitely 100% secure. Things like sandbox, DEP, ASLR etc are absolutely not a replacement for writing proper code, security reviews etc, but they help to limit and contain the effects of many discovered vulnerabilities, which this particular case demonstrates very well. In many cases it can mean that a discovered vulnerability is downright non-exploitable (at best you can DoS the client by crashing him). In some other cases it is exploitable, but requires a very significant amount of effort to get past all the layers; if vulnerability becomes known before an exploit is available, this buys more time to get a proper fix out.

    13. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by ashridah · · Score: 1

      Actually, about all IE8 on vista/win7 has access to is %USERPROFILE%\AppData\LocalLow\, or anything else tagged with the same attribute (your favorites folder too)

      Network shares won't have this attribute set, nor will My Documents, unless you went out and fiddled with cacls.

    14. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? Wouldn't that make it near impossible to save documents to the My Documents folder? Or use plugins like Adobe Flash? If they have somehow hacked in this availablity, whilst limiting it to that folder you stated; I'm even more worried.

    15. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      So if it broke out of the secure mode sandbox, it would still be limited to user data, no system access.

      By default, IE8 on 7 is pretty secure.

      So it's ok if a buggy webpage can wipe out My Documents, so long as it doesn't break my system? I'm not sure many users would agree with you there.

      Modern malware does not usually delete data outright. Indeed, avoiding detection is one of the primary goals of modern malware. Deleting large amounts of data violates this goal in a big way. For this reason, your concern about wiping out My Documents is largely invalid in the context of the security threats that most users today actually face.

      The biggest threats facing average users today are password-stealing trojans and zombie spambots. These programs are persistent in nature, and (unlike data deletion) can usually be recovered from. In this setting, user account permissions provide a substantial benefit, because in the absence of permanent data loss, it is far easier to recover from a user account compromise than a system compromise.

    16. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Just an obvious thought, if a script in Internet Explorer can delete a file, I suspect it could read it too. In any case, DEP isn't a great solution to this as it simply does not fix the problems this exploit *could* be used for.

    17. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      Just an obvious thought, if a script in Internet Explorer can delete a file, I suspect it could read it too. In any case, DEP isn't a great solution to this as it simply does not fix the problems this exploit *could* be used for.

      Sure, but the GP was talking about UAC, not DEP. In any case, reading a file is an entirely different topic. In most cases, you need to write something somewhere on the disk (be it an executable file, or a script) in order to repeatedly and persistently read data from the machine, so any protections against unauthorized writing will also help defend against reading. Also, reading is rarely devastating in the same way as data loss.

    18. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's ok if a buggy webpage can wipe out My Documents, so long as it doesn't break my system?

      You're an ignoramus. IE7+ on Vista or 7 runs in protected mode and cannot access user files without manual user intervention. Gosh, you're a dope.

    19. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Opposite to Linux servers, the user directory is the only valuable part of the whole file system for the average Joe’s computer. ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    20. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the GP was talking about UAC, not DEP. In any case, reading a file is an entirely different topic.

      In either case, this exploit isn't safe just because of UAC or DEP.

      Also, reading is rarely devastating in the same way as data loss.

      Wow. You're quite behind. Make your mind up, I said about data loss, someone said that data loss isn't bad and that reading data is just as bad, and you're telling me that someone reading my documents/credit card numbers/porn isn't devastating. You can't have it both ways.

      All I'm saying is DEP nor UAC is a suitable 'solution' or panacea. Are you sure you're not a Microsoft shill?

    21. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an ignoramus. IE7+ on Vista or 7 runs in protected mode and cannot access user files without manual user intervention. Gosh, you're a dope.

      How does it save files to the My Documents folder then? Or load Adobe Flash? You really trust ALL your data to 'protected mode'? Personally I'd just prefer it if they fixed the exploit. Gosh you're an idiot.

    22. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if they're magical but I see Linux fairies everywhere I look on this site.

    23. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      In either case, this exploit isn't safe just because of UAC or DEP.

      You're making it out as if exploit mitigation is worthless. I completely disagree. Even if this particular exploit is not restricted by UAC or DEP, in general it is a good and worthwhile thing if the impact of an exploit is limited to user files as opposed to system files. This is especially undeniably true on multiuser systems (which are very rare in the Windows world, but extremely common in Unix/Linux).

      Also, reading is rarely devastating in the same way as data loss.

      Wow. You're quite behind. Make your mind up, I said about data loss, someone said that data loss isn't bad and that reading data is just as bad, and you're telling me that someone reading my documents/credit card numbers/porn isn't devastating. You can't have it both ways.

      If someone else said something opposite, it doesn't mean that I agree with what they say. I'm not trying to have it both ways. Of course read exploits can have terrible consequences, but you must admit that data loss is devastating as well. In comparing two extremely bad outcomes, I rank data loss worse.

      I will acknowledge that read attacks are far more common on the modern internet.

      All I'm saying is DEP nor UAC is a suitable 'solution' or panacea. Are you sure you're not a Microsoft shill?

      Given my extremely long posting history of pro-linux anti-microsoft comments, I am indeed sure that I am not a Microsoft shill. As a matter of fact, Linux/Unix benefits from exploit mitigation via user permissions far more than Windows, because limited privilege user accounts are the norm in Linux rather than the exception.

    24. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by duguk · · Score: 1

      In either case, this exploit isn't safe just because of UAC or DEP.

      You're making it out as if exploit mitigation is worthless. I completely disagree. Even if this particular exploit is not restricted by UAC or DEP, in general it is a good and worthwhile thing if the impact of an exploit is limited to user files as opposed to system files. This is especially undeniably true on multiuser systems (which are very rare in the Windows world, but extremely common in Unix/Linux).

      I never said it was worthless! That's your interpretation. All I've said is just because there's DEP and UAC doesn't mean that IE8 is completely safe. I've already agreed this same issue applies to Linux/Unix, and that's why fixing exploits is a Good Thing.

      Also, reading is rarely devastating in the same way as data loss.

      Wow. You're quite behind. Make your mind up, I said about data loss, someone said that data loss isn't bad and that reading data is just as bad, and you're telling me that someone reading my documents/credit card numbers/porn isn't devastating. You can't have it both ways.

      If someone else said something opposite, it doesn't mean that I agree with what they say. I'm not trying to have it both ways. Of course read exploits can have terrible consequences, but you must admit that data loss is devastating as well. In comparing two extremely bad outcomes, I rank data loss worse.

      I will acknowledge that read attacks are far more common on the modern internet.

      I'm just meant for you to keep up with the thread discussion. Either outcome is bad. Fixing the exploit is the best solution. I guess that's why they're fixing it.

      All I'm saying is DEP nor UAC is a suitable 'solution' or panacea. Are you sure you're not a Microsoft shill?

      Given my extremely long posting history of pro-linux anti-microsoft comments, I am indeed sure that I am not a Microsoft shill. As a matter of fact, Linux/Unix benefits from exploit mitigation via user permissions far more than Windows, because limited privilege user accounts are the norm in Linux rather than the exception.

      True, and Linux/Unix also doesn't (usually) suffer from having exploits patched as late as Microsoft. I've said over and over again that UAC/DEP is not a panacea.

      Saying that UAC/DEP does solve all these problems does make you seem like a Microsoft shill - by suggesting their new feature is the be-all and end-all of all vulnerabilities. That can never be the case and is why I took offence to this thread.

      All I've tried to say here - and I think we both agree - is that fixing the exploit is the only truly safe solution.

    25. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      Saying that UAC/DEP does solve all these problems does make you seem like a Microsoft shill - by suggesting their new feature is the be-all and end-all of all vulnerabilities. That can never be the case and is why I took offence to this thread.

      In turn, I never said that mitigation solves all these problems, or that one should not fix the exploit. Of course mitigation is not the total solution, and of course one should fix the exploit. But mitigation IS a valuable defense. If an attacker manages to delete My Documents, as bad as that is, it IS still a superior outcome compared to total system compromise, doubly so because deletion is a very rare threat in the wild. That's all.

    26. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an attacker manages to delete My Documents, as bad as that is, it IS still a superior outcome compared to total system compromise, doubly so because deletion is a very rare threat in the wild. That's all.

      I respectfully disagree, from the point of view most people would prefer their system to be hosed than lose their pictures. But that is purely their opinion. To my mind, both of these are equally important. For example, for comparing the relative merits of losing data or giving our your credit card information would completely depend on your situation.

      The original poster said:

      So if it broke out of the secure mode sandbox, it would still be limited to user data, no system access. By default, IE8 on 7 is pretty secure.

      Which is what I disagreed with, not like you seem to believe that I'm suggesting UAC and DEP is useless. I'm simply saying that because there is UAC/DEP, doesn't mean it is automatically "pretty secure".

    27. Re:Vista, Win7 - really? by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      "Microsoft has come a long way in securing their OS, but they still have a long way to go before claiming that their product is as secure as, say, FreeBSD or OSX."

      Microsoft only has to get people to look at the numbers and give up the myths.

      Go look at any set of numbers from the last two years. (Essentailly look at Vista and IE7 and newer.)

      From quality of code and number of patches to the number of exploits used to compromise machines, Windows Vista and Win7 fairs better than OS X, OpenBSD, or any Linux distribution.

      These are real numbers, you just have to pay attention.

      In the server breaches over the past couple of years from government sites to universities, 99.9% of them have been OS X, OpenBSD (Even on Berkley's campus), and Linux.

      There are still very OLD exploints in most *nixs that people use all the time to crack a system, and the real myth is that *nix gives people security like you mention. Our techs have several *nix exploits tools that work remotely and locally that they use to crack servers/desktops locked by employess leaving companies. The tools work from various angles in old TCP/IP exploits all the way to using XWindows exploits, as it runs at root, and you can use it to gain 'esculated privledges' to root with a couple of click from a standard user account.

      I challenge anyone here. Go to ANY security site. Use any metric, Windows Vista/Win7 and IE7/IE8 and Windows 2008 are by far the most secure and least breached systems in the last two/three years.

      Also look at other Microsoft technology like Silverlight, where there has been virtually NO flaws, and compare that to the patch happy and very insecure Flash...

      It is just perception and people that stopped paying attention to the facts and the numbers.

  8. well done Google by vacarul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Looking back at the whole story it seems that Google planed this in advance. They got hacked for real... but then someone had an idea: this an IE exploit so lets benefit from this. Let's show everyone how bad IE really is. So they posted on their blog saying that they will get out of China because of this attack (very dramatic so everybody heard about it) but I suspect that they have no intention to do that. I think they used their blog just to let people know: "we are Google, we know stuff about security but we've been hacked, we will lose this big market and it's all because of this flawed IE". Now everybody is running away from IE (finally).

    Not sure if this is evil but I'm sure IE will lose because of this.

    1. Re:well done Google by ElSupreme · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah use our cool browser that reports almost all of you browsing back to us. We won't be evil, we promise!

      --
      My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
    2. Re:well done Google by dskzero · · Score: 1

      That sounds terribly farfetched. I seriously doubt it. And not everyone is running for IE: most people who use it probably don't even know abou tthe news.

      --
      Oblivion Awaits
    3. Re:well done Google by vacarul · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of people heard that Google was hacked and they want to get out of China. It was published on a lot of non-tech websites.

    4. Re:well done Google by dskzero · · Score: 1

      That would be the fact, but Google planning this seems a bit too perfect.

      --
      Oblivion Awaits
    5. Re:well done Google by vacarul · · Score: 1

      they planned it by saying they will quit China while it is clear, for me, that they will never do this.

      Hard to know for sure.. it's a speculation.

    6. Re:well done Google by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      Google has never said they will leave China. They have said they will (that's *will*, not have) refuse to continue to censor, which will probably result in them being forced to leave, but it is clear that in the unlikely event the Chinese government agrees to let them stop censoring they will stay.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    7. Re:well done Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use SRware Iron instead of Chrome.

    8. Re:well done Google by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Theres always chromium, you know.

  9. I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA:

    But although Internet Explorer 6 has been the source of attacks until now, Microsoft's advisory admits that both IE7 and IE8 are vulnerable to the same flaw, even on Windows 7.

    But then, in the very next sentence of the very same FA:

    Nevertheless, Microsoft is still urging its customers to upgrade their browser to the latest version. "Customers using Internet Explorer 8 are not affected by currently known attacks and exploits due to the improved security protections in IE8," the company claims.

    Am I missing something, or are they suggesting that last week's attack is not "currently known"???

    My head feels like it's about to asplode from this doublespeak...

    /HJ

    1. Re:I don't understand... by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      The currently known attacks do not affect IE.

      However, it is possible and likely that existing attacks could be modified to work on IE8.

      That's what they're saying. Yeah, it's Marketing speak, but i've seen worse.

    2. Re:I don't understand... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      IE8 has the same bug, but it has further protective measures that limit the bug from being harmful. Defense in depth.

    3. Re:I don't understand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IE8 is vulernable, except that it has DEP turned on by default. Turn off DEP and you're in the same boat as the IE6 users with this particular exploit. So yeah, it's misleading to say that "Customers using Internet Explorer 8 are not affected", unless you force DEP on in IE8, which they don't.

    4. Re:I don't understand... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      It sounds like marketing speak to me. That sentence reads a lot differently if you add one word:

      Customers using Internet Explorer 8 are not affected by some|most currently known attacks and exploits due to the improved security protections in IE8

      I doubt they're trying to claim that IE8 is immune to all known attacks.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    5. Re:I don't understand... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I doubt they're trying to claim that IE8 is immune to all known attacks.

      Claim, no of course not. A claim is something you can be held to.

      Microsoft merely wish to imply this.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  10. Who the fuck cares why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UPGRADE!

    IE6 must die!

  11. Faulty Products. A comparison. by geekmux · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You know what struck me as strange when I read this post? I thought about the issue that Firestone went through a few years back with their faulty tires causing a few deadly accidents. By comparison:

    If Firestone were to beg people to buy their faulty product, even though it was dangerous, people would think that Firestone being rather twisted and greedy.

    When Microsoft basically does the same thing with their faulty product, it's somehow "OK"?

    I guess the "go fix your shit and don't come back until it's done" mentality is rather dead these days...

  12. Re:Upgrade to Opera by lorenlal · · Score: 0, Troll

    I dunno... If these folks are using IE6, and don't have any clue what they're doing, wouldn't they just be better off without a web browser? They'll find a way to stumble along something dangerous regardless of what anyone does to help them protect themselves.

    I think that we should encourage these users to upgrade to the "offline experience."

  13. Fsck That! by Old+Sparky · · Score: 1

    Upgrade to Firefox!!!

    Get rid of that Microsoft Virus masquerading as an operating system!

    1. Re:Fsck That! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Firefox replaces operating systems now?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  14. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except for the product is free and one is more secure then the other. While it's not perfect it's not as terrible as you make it out to be. No browser is 100% secure so by your standards if you recommend Firefox instead and they get malware from it are you to blame for it? Is this really MS's fault for people refusing to upgrade for whatever reason?

    Doctors prescribe medications all the time knowing about potential side effects and even if the user does have these side effects many times it is better then the original condition. Or would you just recommend that someone shrivel up and die because there is no perfect solution?

  15. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

    That's a bad analogy, because the TFA only suggests customers to upgrade to IE8 from a previous version. It doesn't appear to be a money grab, i.e. (no pun intended) there's no recommendation to switch from say Firefox to IE8.

  16. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by plague3106 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Your memory fails you. Firestone said the problem was that their tire wasn't rated to the standards which were required for a particular Ford model. Ford installed them as OEM tires anyway. When it came out, Ford said Firestone made a faulty tire, but Firestone responded that the tire wasn't designed to be used in the environment created by Fords one SUV model.

    As usual, another analogy on /. fails...

  17. Re:Channeling BadAnalogyGuy by MrMr · · Score: 4, Informative

    Your comment is outrageous. The submission consists of a factual statement and some literal quotes from Microsoft.
    If this is FUD about explorer it is Microsoft FUD about explorer and not the submitters.

  18. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A browser exploit doesn't put your life in danger.

  19. Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Makes me wonder why they were not using Chrome in the first place... ^^

  20. The right time to upgrade by Random+BedHead+Ed · · Score: 4, Informative

    The right time to stop using IE6 is not with this new exploit. It's circa 2003. I find all this perplexing because from what I hear, the people who keep thrusting IE6 on people like a poisoned dagger are IT departments, but aren't IT departments supposed to be staffed by, you know, techies? The kind of people who go to nerdy sites like /. and should know IE6 sucks rat balls?

    I understand that other browsers like Firefox might have been hard to push out and manage back when the world first discovered that browsing can improve as long as you avoid Microsoft, but what about IE7? That came out over two years ago and it definitely sucks slightly less. Can we revoke Geek status from IT staff that are still pushing IE6? Ban them from this site? Cut off their Internets until they appologize?

    (Special consideration would of course be extended to those techies who were unjustly forbidden from upgrading IE in their infrastructure because of web apps that only worked on IE6; the web app developers should have their Geek status revoked instead.)

    1. Re:The right time to upgrade by robogun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So I was doing an install of ATT DSL a few months ago. You don't just plug it in, you have to authenticate.

      Only IE works with their server, and the install disc includes IE6 in case you don't have it.

    2. Re:The right time to upgrade by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      You can install it without their crap CD, but it's a PITA because there's zero documentation and you have to discover everything for yourself, if you run Linux for example. But all you need is any browser.
      The same applies to the majority of home networking gear out there.

    3. Re:The right time to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talk to hosted EMR providers (I'm still looking at you AllScripts). They finally updated for IE7, but it breaks a LOT of functionality, including dictation. Doctors tend not to be happy people without dictation.

    4. Re:The right time to upgrade by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > ...the web app developers should have their Geek status revoked...

      Most Web developers don't qualify for geek status.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    5. Re:The right time to upgrade by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Or you can call then and ream them for it, tell them that you want the damn thing turned on, and they do it. Ive dealt with this in a situation where we didnt have IE for whatever reason, and they activated it; its just not automatic.

    6. Re:The right time to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but aren't IT departments supposed to be staffed by, you know, techies? The kind of people who go to nerdy sites like /. and should know IE6 sucks rat balls?

      No, they're usually staffed by professionals. The kind of people who avoid mindless MS-bashing sites like /. and instead read actual security advisories and learn how to lock systems down to mitigate risks.

      Usually, if IE6 is in use in a corporate environment, it's due to some mission-critical application that requires it, and therefore steps have been taken to secure it as much as possible.

    7. Re:The right time to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We also have ATT DSL, and after an EXTREMELY convoluted process that finally ended with a conversation with a service technician, we found that authentication over another browser IS possible (firefox in this case) providing the modem you use is NOT the stock wireless modem they provide. We were fortunate in that we had an older ethernet connected modem on hand. What IS a bit of a headache is that connecting to their server in our area requires us to use a Windows OS (or alternatively, OSX) for the initial connection. I asked about connecting using Linux, and got the verbal equivalent of a blank stare before I was transferred to a slightly more knowledgeable tech who explained that while Linux wasn't prohibited, nor was it explicitly supported, at least for residential customers.

    8. Re:The right time to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason most IT depts avoid these upgrades is because it opens a can of worms with old shitty applications that break when a new version of IE is thrust upon it. Rather than fix or upgrade the shitty applications, a lot of IT departments take the lazy half-assed way and mandate staying on IE6 either because the shitty application either can't be upgraded or because the business doesn't want to spend the money on upgrading it. Believe me, we know some idiot sooner or later is going to infect themselves due to IE6 but our hands are tied. If we forced these updates on everyone and it breaks their application, then we have to listen to them whine about it all the while the business is down because the shitty app is down. See where I am going with this? IT is not the problem, its the business that shoots themselves in the foot.

    9. Re:The right time to upgrade by ThrowAwaySociety · · Score: 1

      ....from what I hear, the people who keep thrusting IE6 on people like a poisoned dagger are IT departments, but aren't IT departments supposed to be staffed by, you know, techies? The kind of people who go to nerdy sites like /. and should know IE6 sucks rat balls?...

      Unfortunately, most IT departments have no say in budgets. So if the IT department spent eleventy billion dollars in 1999 for the snazzy new ERP system in the midst of The Bubble and Y2K, and management is not willing to replace/upgrade/mainain it anymore....they're stuck supporting (and mandating) whatever will work with that system's broken HTML-JS output.

      But yeah, there are a lot of clueless departments out there, too.

    10. Re:The right time to upgrade by jyx · · Score: 1

      No, they're usually staffed by professionals. The kind of people who avoid mindless MS-bashing sites like /. and instead read actual security advisories and learn how to lock systems down to mitigate risks.

      Let me guess, you are one of these *professionals* right? Building your mission critical systems in ASP, no doubt with the connection strings and passwords hard coded into each and every page, liberal sprinkles of obscure third party pretty components. Reading all those security bulletins but not noticing the pattern of ie6 is teh sux0ers, upgrade to 8!

      Oh wait, you had to read Slashdot to post to it so that rules you out of the professional stream, I guess you must work in catering or something..

      And as for the site being mindless ms bashing, one of the first +5 modded posts basically calls BS on the original story's claim that ie7/8 remain vulnerable.

      Relax a bit, take breath and throw out those angry pills!

    11. Re:The right time to upgrade by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes these decisions are out of the hands of the "techies" you speak of. IE7 tends to turn our machines into slow running pieces of crap, IE8 does some weird things with some of the internal sites (even in "compatibility mode") and Firefox is scheduled to be considered for our next SOE (but that is no small task).

      There is no magic button to change overnight, because if there is some small reason that the Alternate browser doesn't work, isn't stable, doesn't present Manager X's favorite site correctly, it will chip away at the products reputation. Now matter how good a product is, unless you get staff buy in and keep up it's reputation (proper testing, piloting, rollout strategy) it will ultimately get shunned by the masses and never be allowed back.

      Good "techies" aren't cow boys, whilst there may be a time and a place for quick hacks, replacing an application that is used by every staff member, every day, needs some damn careful planning.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    12. Re:The right time to upgrade by Eil · · Score: 1

      I find all this perplexing because from what I hear, the people who keep thrusting IE6 on people like a poisoned dagger are IT departments, but aren't IT departments supposed to be staffed by, you know, techies?

      This is a common misconception. Generally, the companies which have a policy of requiring IE on the desktop (to the exclusion of anything else) tend to be the same ones staffed by I.T. managers who sign their emails with a long string of certification acronyms after their names. The staff themselves are usually selected by the same criteria.

  21. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Incorrect... The fault was Ford stuck the tires on as OEM parts, and actually UNDER-INFLATED the tires. The issue that occurred with the Firestone tire would have happened with ANY P or UV tired that was also under-inflated on that vehicle at highway speeds. An under inflated tire causes major heat build up, and leads to tire failure.

    As another posted said, a crap analogy.

  22. Who cares? by BCW2 · · Score: 1

    I haven't used IE in any form for 5 years. Any web page that I can't see in Firefox doesn't want my business. The only way to start IE on my computer is to run the .exe file since there are no shortcuts or icons anywhere.

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
    1. Re:Who cares? by ScytheBlade1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >The only way to start IE on my computer is to run the .exe file since there are no shortcuts or icons anywhere.

      I'd disagree. Open up "My Computer" and type in "http://www.google.com/" into the address bar.

      Enjoy your IE.

    2. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, it opens up a new tab in Chrome on Vista/7. Oh wait, that's because HTTP(S) is associated with Chrome.

      Didn't XP also have a way to assign the default browser, or is that what Explorer used to ignore?

    3. Re:Who cares? by BasharTeg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because Firefox's exploit stats aren't worse than any other modern browser right? Maybe you need to do a little research.

    4. Re:Who cares? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe if you're going to use a different browser, also set it as a default. When I type a URL into Windows Explorer it correctly opens the URL in my default browser, which is not IE.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    5. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I do this in XP, a new instance of Firefox appears and loads the page. If I make IE8 the default browser, it opens IE or a new tab in an existing IE window. I don't know why it opens a separate window.. I seem to remember web pages loading right in the Explorer window instead of opening an IE window. Maybe this is new behavior with IE8. I rarely use it.
      Posting as AC because I moderated.

    6. Re:Who cares? by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      Since Windows 98 came out, there have been 4 new versions released. Perhaps you should try using one less than a decade old.

    7. Re:Who cares? by BCW2 · · Score: 1

      Firefox is the default. The last time I used IE was in school where the machines didn't allow choice. I used Netscape until Firefox came out because Gates doesn't tell me what to use, unless he pays for my computer and the electric bill to run it.

      I don't think they have a version of IE for Linux anyway. The only time I even start XP is to play games.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
    8. Re:Who cares? by JWSmythe · · Score: 0

          The same works for anywhere with the file explorer, among other places. The claim was that they did it to simplify. The reality was that it was so integrated into the OS, that it couldn't be completely separated.

          I'm not on a MS machine right now, so I can't give any other examples. :) I'm pretty sure you can click start->run (or whatever variation for that version of Win), and put in a URL, and it'll fire up MSIE.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    9. Re:Who cares? by jisatsusha · · Score: 1

      This hasn't been true since XP SP2 was released, back in 2004. Type a web url into the address bar of any newer release, and it'll redirect the request to your default web browser.

  23. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except that using a faulty browser isn't more likely to kill than people riding with faulty tires on something that moves really fast.

  24. When will we change programming practices? by haruchai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems that all exploits that I've read about over the last decade all boil down to the same flaws - buffer overflows, invalid pointers, format strings, etc.
    Yet, developers persist in using the same old programming languages & libraries that are rife with weaknesses.
    Why haven't they changed to something better? From what I can see, better tools have been available for a long time and, quite frankly,
    the old "we've always done things this way and it would be too expensive to change" is real crap.
    What about the cost of NOT changing? Is that irrelevant because the cost ( and consequences ) are the burden of the end-user, not the vendor?

    Isn't it past time that things changed?

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:When will we change programming practices? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      Why haven't they changed to something better? From what I can see, better tools have been available for a long time

      I was wondering that too. Microsoft says C# and .net will alleviate these types of problems with "managed code" in your wares, but apparently they don't feel the need to use it for their own products.

    2. Re:When will we change programming practices? by tokul · · Score: 1

      Why haven't they changed to something better? From what I can see, better tools have been available for a long time and, quite frankly, the old "we've always done things this way and it would be too expensive to change" is real crap.

      1. "better tools are available" means nothing if you don't name those tools.
      2. Complete rewrite does not make thing secure. It adds new problems and can reintroduce old ones. older stuff works and needs few patches. New stuff would require a lot more patching and more coding hours. You won't call old stuff crap, if you know how it works and you are the one who has to redo same thing on new stuff.
    3. Re:When will we change programming practices? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Developers who know what they're doing had it drummed into their heads that they need to watch memory allocation, array boundaries, null pointers, unsafe library functions and the like.
      The problem is if you hire hordes of less qualified programmers and let them loose on a project that requires low level programming.
      Unfortunately, anything using C or C++ amounts to low level programming.

    4. Re:When will we change programming practices? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      1. I'm not a programmer - do some of your own legwork, read the Wikipedia page on Buffer overrun exploits or just fucking Google it.
      2. I'm not so sure about "older stuff works and needs few patches" - exploits have been found in "older, working stuff". I recall a problem with BSD FTP that affected pretty much every Unix version going back 10+ years.
      And, i think at least one exploit with image-handling was found when the source for Win2K was released into the wild.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    5. Re:When will we change programming practices? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Right - so we're coming down to relying on (expensive) greybeards but most of the work is being done by whippersnappers who can spin out code but aren't obeying best practices with powerful but unsafe tools.

      Perhaps a secure coding certification is mandatory?
      I know this will be an unpopular idea and that some terrific code has been crafted by amateurs but something has to be done.
      How about free code analysis for FOSS apps?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    6. Re:When will we change programming practices? by BasharTeg · · Score: 1

      Managed code is the future. Doesn't matter if it's C# .NET, VB .NET, Java, Python, or something else. The languages save as intermediate language or bytecode, but in the end they're cached as platform specific optimized native code. The performance is very near that of the most optimal C. As our hardware power increases thanks to crazy leaps in processor and memory performance (thank you Nehalem) the costs of managed code performance are being minimized. And what is it that slows managed code anyway except for the checks that you should be hand coding in your C? Those same checks that prevent these kinds of attacks on a managed application.

      I was a C developer for years who focused on writing the highest performance code at every turn. And for kernels, drivers, and maybe the highest performance demanding services, properly written C may be the right answer. But for many services and almost all applications, there is absolutely no reason I can see why a managed language shouldn't be used. There will still be security flaws but they will be much fewer and far between.

    7. Re:When will we change programming practices? by tokul · · Score: 1

      1. I'm not a programmer - do some of your own legwork, read the Wikipedia page on Buffer overrun exploits or just fucking Google it.

      Where have you learned to discuss things? You claim that tools exist, but you refuse to disclose them. Either you don't know those tools or you don't understand how they are used and what are their limitations. If you claim some facts, be prepared to prove them instead of redirecting your opponent to F thing.

    8. Re:When will we change programming practices? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It seems that all exploits that I've read about over the last decade all boil down to the same flaws - buffer overflows, invalid pointers, format strings, etc.
      Yet, developers persist in using the same old programming languages & libraries that are rife with weaknesses.
      Why haven't they changed to something better?

      They did. A few examples for Microsoft in particular, listed in no specific order:

      - .NET and C#/VB are memory-safe (though you can explicitly opt out in C# with "unsafe" code).
      - StrSafe - C
      - ISO C TR 24731 aka "Secure CRT" - C
      - checked STL containers and iterators (bounds checking, iterator invalidation etc) - C++

      The problem is that any memory-unsafe language (which both C and C++ are) has ways to work around any such library, and writing everything in a high-level language/framework (such as C#/.NET) is unfeasible because of performance requirements, and the sheer volume of existing C/C++ code. That said, there clearly is a trend of using higher-level languages and frameworks for new developments: any .NET language on Windows, Python or Ruby on Linux, Java mostly for internal corporate applications on various Unix flavors, etc; with only the perf-critical code parts implemented in C/C++ and called via FFI of high-level language used.

    9. Re:When will we change programming practices? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Where did you learn to read? It's obvious I was looking for input from experienced programmers.
      Yes, I could have listed off any number of tools but I've never used any of them so why would I start a discussion on tools I don't and can't use?

      What I did was list TYPES of flaws and invited those who KNOW to discuss. Feel free to refer to some of the other replies to my post to see what others have used or their opinion on why this is an intractable problem.
       

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  25. DUH! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Really? Impossible! I fully expected them to say it would be better to use Firefox or Opera.

    Seriously. What did you expect? Be honest.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  26. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by robogun · · Score: 2, Informative

    Firestone still took the contract, they weren't going to turn down a sale of millions of tires.. They knew what Ford was putting them on.

  27. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by xaxa · · Score: 1

    Except that using a faulty browser isn't more likely to kill than people riding with faulty tires on something that moves really fast.

    I assume you aren't a political activist in China.

  28. Let's just fix one by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    In many ways if you are going to stick to using Internet Explorer, then it might as well be the latest one. If there is a flaw that affects IE8 less than the other two, then it is still the lesser risk. Even if it doesn't and is still major, then Microsoft will most probably concentrate on providing a security fix for IE8, and not the others. Heck, beyond hyper-conservative company policy (aka "let's stick with 10 year old software, no matter what"), there is very little reason not to upgrade and plenty of reasons to upgrade. To name three: its free, its more standards compliant and it is probably more secure that the previous to versions.

    If you are still using IE5, then I have nothing good to say.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  29. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you should remember that these are criminals who spend all day trying to find any way into your computer and the only reason you don't hear a lot about firefox is because IE 6 and IE 8 have the largest marketshare when it comes to browsers
      i am by no way a soldier of microsoft but they are under constant attack by these criminals
      after all why go after someone else who may only have 20% of the market

  30. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As usual, another car analogy on /. fails...

    There, fixed that for you. ;-)

  31. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by barzok · · Score: 1

    It wasn't even that "exotic" of a problem. Ford recommended a low tire pressure for a softer ride - trying to make a truck not ride like a truck. Low tire pressure generates excess heat, which ultimately causes the tire failure. And because the other tires on the vehicle are also under-inflated, the changes in the vehicle's handling are magnified and everything goes to hell.

    People who ran the tires at (for example) 35PSI instead of 30PSI didn't have problems.

  32. Pentagon thinking by Angst+Badger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are there a lot of ex-Pentagon bureaucrats at Microsoft? Both seem to have an incredibly self-destructive habit of doing anything but owning up to the problems they create, apparently oblivious to the fact that it's a lot better for all involved if they were to just say, "Hey, we fucked up, and we're going to fix it," and then fixing it. It's not like the competing browsers haven't had plenty of security holes, but the difference with -- to pick the one I'm most familiar with -- Firefox is that when a vulnerability is discovered, my first awareness of it is generally a new welcome screen in the morning announcing the fix. With IE, it's listening to users and admins bitch about unresolved issues in browsers that have been in the field for for years.

    Oh well, it could be worse. At least aerial defoliants and depleted uranium munitions are not among Microsoft's current offerings.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Pentagon thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem isn't bureaucrats at Microsoft. The problem is what happens to every technology company that has been around long enough for the MBA types to take over management: management no longer has any pride in the product they produce, nor do they care about making a good product. The only thing that matters to MBA types is profit margin. Some Microsoft exec who probably gets paid more than the entire IE development team combined looked at some marketing studies and decided that the cost of maintaining a quick response development team to fix security flaws hurts Microsoft's bottom line more than allowing critical security flaws go through their routine development cycle and damaging the reputation of their products.

    2. Re:Pentagon thinking by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Nah, I don't think that is probably what happened in this case, but yes, I agree that board of directors of companies should no longer select these types as CEOs. And yes, I know about MS's unethical PR practices that was discussed in Boycott Novell and elsewhere. Nice comparison to the Pentagon, BTW.

  33. Re:Channeling BadAnalogyGuy by NevarMore · · Score: 1

    Well I DID say it was an attempt at a bad analogy.

    The point I was trying to make was similar to that of some other folks. Yes IE8 does not fix this specific flaw, however it does address many other vulnerabilities and outright flaws in IE6.

    I believe the expression is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

  34. FAKE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to the actual advisory (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/advisory/979352.mspx), no upgrading is recommended at all...

  35. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any tire that has issues running at 30PSI is garbage. That's a normal pressure.

    If the difference between 35PSI and 30PSI can end your life then I would never use those POS tires. That kind of pressure difference could be caused by nothing more than a cold morning.

  36. Microsoft's advisory admits that both IE7 and IE8 by benjymouse · · Score: 3, Informative

    Microsoft's advisory admits that both IE7 and IE8 are vulnerable to the same flaw, even on Windows 7.

    That is a misrepresentation, at best.

    The knowledge-base article: http://blogs.technet.com/srd/archive/2010/01/15/assessing-risk-of-ie-0day-vulnerability.aspx

    It states pretty clearly that IE7 *may* be vulnerable to this attack. But it also states that IE8 - on all recent platforms (XPSP3, Vista, 7) - contains the bug but due to DEP (and protected mode on Vista/7) it is not exploitable. That seems to be a pretty good reason to upgrade.

    --
    Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
  37. Good move by Mopatop · · Score: 1

    Seriously, while there's no security change by getting users to upgrade from IE6 to IE8 (with respect to this flaw), there's a massive net gain in getting another IE6 off the streets. Thank you Microsoft, for using every means possible to move users away from IE6.

  38. IE5 rules supreme by edxwelch · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, IE5 is the only version not effected. You should be downgrading not upgrading.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/14/cyber_assault_followup/

    "But Kurtz warned the vulnerability exists in all versions of IE except for IE 5.01, service pack 4, and that it would be possible for attackers to work around the protection."

    1. Re:IE5 rules supreme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pity IE5 is susceptible to 1000 more exploits.

  39. Free software puts fix schedule in your hands. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    One of the problems Microsoft (and this /. thread) gets at is how out of control Microsoft's users are. Microsoft wants you to upgrade to a version of a proprietary browser that can still be compromised with some reconfiguration. Because IE is proprietary, all IE users must wait until Microsoft genuinely fixes the bugs that allow remote code to compromise the browser even after said reconfiguration. Firefox, while vulnerable even in a default install, is free software. Firefox's destiny is in our collective hands. We decide how and when Firefox is fixed and we decide how thorough that fix is.

    So while you're probably not a programmer, like most computer users, you have options with Firefox that you don't have with IE. You could learn to program and help fix Firefox's code. You stand virtually no chance of doing this with IE's code no matter how expert you become. It is of no help to look at this as though Firefox hackers are your workers so you can sit back and wait for them to deliver a fix ("I haven't seen any indication that they aren't working on a fix. What will you say if the patch comes out?").

    Software freedom changes the game by giving you permission to control your computer; the more free software you run, the more control you have. Like with any other freedom how much of that permission you're willing to leverage is up to you.

    1. Re:Free software puts fix schedule in your hands. by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of the problems Microsoft (and this /. thread) gets at is how out of control Microsoft's users are. Microsoft wants you to upgrade to a version of a proprietary browser that can still be compromised with some reconfiguration.

      Ya, well then you're going out of your way to make yourself vunerable again. At which point, I'd have to ask... why did you bother to upgrade?

      Because IE is proprietary, all IE users must wait until Microsoft genuinely fixes the bugs that allow remote code to compromise the browser even after said reconfiguration. Firefox, while vulnerable even in a default install, is free software. Firefox's destiny is in our collective hands. We decide how and when Firefox is fixed and we decide how thorough that fix is.

      And to the average user, there is no differnce. They'll have to way for FF to update itself to get the patch as well, as they're waiting on the mozilla people to do so.

      So while you're probably not a programmer

      Actually I am.

      , like most computer users, you have options with Firefox that you don't have with IE. You could learn to program and help fix Firefox's code. You stand virtually no chance of doing this with IE's code no matter how expert you become. It is of no help to look at this as though Firefox hackers are your workers so you can sit back and wait for them to deliver a fix ("I haven't seen any indication that they aren't working on a fix. What will you say if the patch comes out?").

      Ya, in the real world, thats not going to happen. By the time the average user learned to progam, they'd be a new version of both IE and FF out already. As I explained, to the average user, there is no difference between FF and IE; either browser you're still at the mercy of a 3rd party for a patch.

      Software freedom changes the game by giving you permission to control your computer; the more free software you run, the more control you have. Like with any other freedom how much of that permission you're willing to leverage is up to you

      No, it doesn't. It puts users are the mercy of the OS community (which has an attitude "if you didn't pay for it you don't have a right to complain") instead of a company. But at the end of the day, its the same for them. Don't be delusional; people just want to USE their computers, not spend time learning to program to fix other people's software.

    2. Re:Free software puts fix schedule in your hands. by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      So while you're probably not a programmer

      Actually I am.
      [...]
      It puts users are the mercy of the OS community

      No further comments are necessary!

    3. Re:Free software puts fix schedule in your hands. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      So you're complaining that nobody has produced a fix while trying to convince us that a program we're free to fix is equivalent to a program we're forbidden from fixing. No wonder the fix isn't coming fast enough to satisfy you! I think that when you encourage people to think that way you shoot yourself in the foot by conflating freedom with dependency. I fully appreciate that most users aren't capable of helping or going to help, but I also don't think it's fair or wise to give the impression it's reasonable to tell people nothing practical they can do to help. We can all help by contributing time and money toward those who can help fix things.

      And to the average user, there is no differnce. They'll have to way for FF to update itself to get the patch as well, as they're waiting on the mozilla people to do so.

      Freedom is not a guarantee of help. Having free speech doesn't make one a great orator. Freedom is permission to do something. The average computer user hasn't been taught about software freedom, no thanks to the open source movement which purposefully pushes aside software freedom to speak to business interests. The average computer user hasn't been taught about why they should value community and sharing even when that means buggy software (as it will). We all want more reliable stuff but in the real world everything breaks. The fact remains that free software gives us all more options to get involved help the community than proprietary software does.

      It puts users are the mercy of the OS community (which has an attitude "if you didn't pay for it you don't have a right to complain") instead of a company. But at the end of the day, its the same for them. Don't be delusional; people just want to USE their computers, not spend time learning to program to fix other people's software.

      People just want to drive their cars (not deal with broken tires, busted timing belts, and other failures), people just want to live in houses (not deal with electrical, plumbing, and roofing problems), people just want to drink potable affordable water (not effluent from the printing plant or get water-borne diseases), and much more. But society can't afford the short-term what-about-my-project political laziness you defend. "People just want to..." doesn't help anyone understand the real world where we all have to live with broken and unsafe stuff. The question remains, particularly for those who can help such as you in this situation, how much you're willing to put into fixing things to make life better and help the community. Eschewing freedom to fix things is not at all productive. The amount of software the free software community has made and improved over 20 years is anything but "delusional".

    4. Re:Free software puts fix schedule in your hands. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      So you're complaining that nobody has produced a fix while trying to convince us that a program we're free to fix is equivalent to a program we're forbidden from fixing.

      You need to improve reading comprehension. I'm not complaining there's no patch. And for the large majority of users, the fact that ANY PROGRAMMER can fix the browser is irrelevent. Yup, programmers are free to fix flaws in FF. And how exactly doese that help end users, who will still rely on the automatic update feature of FF? It doesn't, they still have to wait. And that is my point; that to the typical end user, the fact that one is open and the other closed HAS NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE.

      No wonder the fix isn't coming fast enough to satisfy you! I think that when you encourage people to think that way you shoot yourself in the foot by conflating freedom with dependency.

      I'm not conflating freedom with dependency; the freedom you talk about is irrelevent to most users, so its a non-issue.

      I fully appreciate that most users aren't capable of helping or going to help, but I also don't think it's fair or wise to give the impression it's reasonable to tell people nothing practical they can do to help. We can all help by contributing time and money toward those who can help fix things.

      Most users time is useless to help. If they're helping with money... might as well buy a commerical package where at least you can be reasonablly assured a fix will be tested before being rushed out the door.

      Freedom is not a guarantee of help. Having free speech doesn't make one a great orator. Freedom is permission to do something. The average computer user hasn't been taught about software freedom, no thanks to the open source movement which purposefully pushes aside software freedom to speak to business interests. The average computer user hasn't been taught about why they should value community and sharing even when that means buggy software (as it will). We all want more reliable stuff but in the real world everything breaks. The fact remains that free software gives us all more options to get involved help the community than proprietary software does.

      Your fatal assumption is that users WANT to be involved. They don't. They want to buy something, and have it work. Just like cars, most people aren't keen on fixing it themselves. They have other things they want to do. So your community is wholely irrelevent to them.

      People just want to drive their cars (not deal with broken tires, busted timing belts, and other failures), people just want to live in houses (not deal with electrical, plumbing, and roofing problems), people just want to drink potable affordable water (not effluent from the printing plant or get water-borne diseases), and much more. But society can't afford the short-term what-about-my-project political laziness you defend. "People just want to..." doesn't help anyone understand the real world where we all have to live with broken and unsafe stuff. The question remains, particularly for those who can help such as you in this situation, how much you're willing to put into fixing things to make life better and help the community. Eschewing freedom to fix things is not at all productive. The amount of software the free software community has made and improved over 20 years is anything but "delusional".

      Oh please. Society has been doing this ever since civizilation invented money. And its allowed us to progress much faster than when people had to do everything themselves. And by the way, equiating open source with freedom is nonsense. You're not any less free with closed software. The reason is that people don't care about source code just like they don't care about timing belts.

      But I'm sure you grow your own food, cut your own trees to build your house, mine your own metal to build your car or bike. Yup, you do it all by yourself, because knowing the details of everything possible in the world leaves you with a bunch of free time to program on your computer.

      The software "improved" over the last 20 years STILL SUCKS. I know, because I tried it, for quite a few years. I ended up buying Windows. I have better things to do that fix other peoples programs.

  40. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..and then during testing Ford found their SUVs flipped over at the slightest turn so they lowered tire pressure substantially.

    Ford internal documents show the company engineers recommended changes to the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to introduction, but other than a few minor changes, the suspension and track width were not changed. Instead, Ford, which sets the specifications for the manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering the recommended psi to 26. The maximum pressure stamped into the sidewall of the tire was 35psi; however tires should only be inflated to the pressure listed by the vehicle's manufacturer.

  41. DEP is controller per-task on Windows by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    It has been since it debuted in an XP service pack.

    So if you "disable" DEP to make some apps work, it still isn't disabled for IE8, because IE8 opts-in for it.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  42. Re:Channeling BadAnalogyGuy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The submission consists of a factual statement and some literal quotes from Microsoft. If this is FUD about explorer it is Microsoft FUD about explorer and not the submitters.

    Submitter "quoted" some quotes of Microsoft statements from a news site (PC Pro). As it turns out that is actually a misrepresentation of the factual statements made by MS.

    The article actually had a link to real statements from Microsoft on the issue (security advisory). To quote those:

    Mitigating Factors:

    • Data Execution Protection (DEP) is enabled by default in Internet Explorer 8 on the following Windows operating systems: Windows XP Service Pack 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, Windows Vista Service Pack 2, and Windows 7.
    • Protected Mode in Internet Explorer on Windows Vista and later Windows operating systems limits the impact of the vulnerability.

    The advisory can be found here: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/advisory/979352.mspx.

    Is it too much to ask that submitters actually click the links and read background information before quoting quotes? Or would it spoil a good MS bashing?

  43. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uhhh...as usual?

    Can yiu give a few pointers to other failed analogies on Slashdot? My own recollection (and searching a few minutes ago) only found ones that were pretty relevant or, in fact, downright funny.

  44. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    My memory of that if far different. The tires were faulty but in a small percentage of tires. There was a manufacturing defect that would cause tread separation. The number of faulty tires was relatively small.

    The real problem was that Ford Explorers were rolling over in accidents. Ford wanted to blame it all on the tires when in reality that particular defect was a factor in only a small number of accidents. The real cause of the issue was the instability of the Ford Explorer. It is a simple matter of physics. SUVs like the Ford Explorer have a high center of gravity. Sudden motions (like those that occur in an emergency) would cause the vehicle to roll over.

    An overview of the data showed that:

    1. All accidents involved the Ford Explorer
    2. Some accidents involved tire problems
    3. Some of those accidents involved Firestone tires
    4. Some of the Firestone accidents involved tread separation

    Logically one would conclude that the problem wasn't so much the Firestone tire but the vehicle based on the percentages. But Ford had more money to spend on lobbyists and PR. And most people want to believe that the real issue is a $100 tire that can be replaced instead of the $30,000 vehicle that cannot be easily replaced.

    There was a Frontline report which uncovered that Ford knew their SUVs had roll over issues since the Bronco II which came out ten years earlier.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  45. MOD PARENT DOWN (INFORMATIVE?) by BasharTeg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you had any idea what OP was talking about, you're realize that this isn't "sandboxing and virtualization". Thus, the attacker won't be taking control of the browser in a non-priv account or in a virtual space. This is DEP, data execution prevention. You may also know it as the NX bit. It's disallowing the execution of code from non-code areas such as the stack/heap. Thus it LITERALLY disallows the code from being run. So while the vulnerability is academically "there" the reality is, it does not run code, at all. Not in some restricted domain, not as some no-priv user. It simply doesn't run. Thus it cannot be used for malicious purposes.

    Your entire post is anti-IE hate, and you have no idea what you're talking about. Then you go on to drag in some ActiveX bashing. Of course you've been modded up as "informative" even though your entire post is factually incorrect. I mean this is Slashdot right?

    1. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN (INFORMATIVE?) by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      If you had any idea what OP was talking about, you're realize that this isn't "sandboxing and virtualization".

      Quote from the OP:

      Also, IE in modern versions of Windows is sandboxed, unlike Firefox

      Further comments not necessary.

    2. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN (INFORMATIVE?) by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 1

      You might not be able to execute code from that location of memory but you are still able to read and write to it which does make it a security vulnerability or at the very least a rather large bug.

      --

      ----
      Go canucks, habs, and sens!
    3. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN (INFORMATIVE?) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Thus it cannot be used for malicious purposes.

      Not strictly true. Return-into-libc style exploits continue to function (amongst others). It is just more challenging to inject the shellcode.

  46. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    > The real cause of the issue was the instability of the Ford Explorer.

    The real cause of the problem (that's *problem*, not "issue") was idiot drivers who bought trucks and drove them like pancake cars. Trucks necessarily have high centers of gravity. It is obvious to anyone with any brains that you can't drift a truck around a corner. Most modern cars are so low and flat (in the interest of fuel economy) that they are almost impossible to roll. People get used to that and then try to drive trucks the same way.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  47. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by barzok · · Score: 1

    I had the pressure recommendation wrong. Ford had recommended 26 PSI. That's well below "normal" pressure for most road vehicles, especially heavier ones like SUVs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy

    Ford, which sets the specifications for the manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering the recommended psi to 26.

    So Ford specified possibly weak tires, and then went on to change their recommendations in such a way that it made them weaker without changing the tire specs.

  48. Re:Microsoft's advisory admits that both IE7 and I by DesertBlade · · Score: 1

    May is such a definitive word. If I had a million dollars on a project, may is not going to cut it. And how much faith would you put into DEP? I don't: http://uninformed.org/?v=2&a=4&t=sumry

    Also do you think M$ will come out and say that, "IE8 is exploitable, please use something else."?

    --
    Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
  49. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So MS should take a lesson from Firestone and make it clear to users that IE is still recommended for use, just not on web sites that could potentially contain harmful code.

  50. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Essentially you are blaming the driver. Yes, you can't drive a SUV like you can a passenger, what Frontline uncovered was that even in low speeds, the SUV was unstable:

    The new vehicles caught on big. But there was a downside to the love affair: Because SUVs were taller and narrower than passenger cars, they had an alarming tendency to roll over -- sometimes at speeds as low as 20 miles per hour. And Detroit knew it. FRONTLINE focuses on Ford, the leading seller of SUVs, and uses internal corporate documents, federal regulatory deliberations, and filings from lawsuits to tell the story.

    Futhermore, Ford knew this at least a decade before and did not address the situation directly:

    "Rollover" includes footage of a lawsuit deposition in which a Ford engineer reveals that his company knew its first big-selling SUV, the Bronco II, was killing people in rollovers much more often than other SUVs. What's more, the rollover problem had actually been discovered in early road tests conducted prior to the Bronco II's release. To address the problem, Ford engineers recommended lowering the vehicle's center of gravity and widening its track by two inches to increase its stability. Doing so, however, would have delayed production and pushed back the vehicle's release date -- a decision that would have been extremely costly. Ford executives opted not to make the design change.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  51. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

        I did some reading up on this. I don't use Firestone tires, nor do I drive a Ford, so I didn't follow it too carefully. Last I heard, there was talk of a defect in the Ford assembly line that compromised the tires at the factory. That talk seems to have gone away though.

        What I did find is, after rollover problems were found in their pre-sales testing, they reduced the recommended tire pressure from 30psi to 26psi. I guess it was a problem where the tires were too hard, so they softened them up a little to keep the truck from rolling over, possibly because of the high CG. This minor reduction in pressure wouldn't lower the CG much (like 0.0090") The rated max tire pressure was 35psi, which would cause problems if driven at highway speeds for a long duration. Depending on the tire, 30psi cold could easily become 35psi on a long trip. 26psi wouldn't be enough to make the tire overheat.

        Car & Driver magazine did a test in the Explorers, inducing a blowout. With professional drivers on a closed course, the blowouts did not cause a rollover. It was likely a combination of a mechanical failure (blown tire) and poor emergency driving skills.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  52. IE "puts the beer on the table" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Chrome is particularly loathed by IT departments because you can download it, install it, and run it as a user because the program only installs to the user's application directory.

    Think of that, a web browser that runs in user space. Seems like it should be loved by competent IT departments.

    If we measured the effectiveness of corporate IT by individual uptime (instead of by number of tickets closed), there would be a newfound appreciation for browsers that run in user space and resist infection. But with the economy the way it is, we need to "manage" as many things as we can get our hands on, lest management find out what we really do and how easily they could downsize the help desk by making better architecture choices.

    In more than a few companies, IE "puts the beer on the table" for level 1 help desk technicians.

    1. Re:IE "puts the beer on the table" by Volguus+Zildrohar · · Score: 1

      That's ridiculous. IE doesn't keep level 1 employed. Ignorant users do, and that won't change regardless of what amazing systems you put in front of them. Fortunately for the entry-level support employees, there's no shortage in sight.

      --
      When confronted with one problem, some think "I'll use recursion". Now they are confronted with one problem.
    2. Re:IE "puts the beer on the table" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IT management invests far more in controlling than they do in user training. Even half-baked "management" is better than the "unmanaged" alternative. Or is it?

      Is ignorance a problem? Definitely, but it is not limited to the end users.

  53. Good Luck With that.... by cervo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The place I work is still running IE 6. About 6 months ago they did a big effort to upgrade to IE 7, tested all their apps, and then decided that they weren't ready. There is currently no time table to upgrade to IE7 let alone 8.

    A company I interned at had IE 4.0 for the longest time, even after 5 came out, and the latest versions of netscape....

    I think what our friends at Microsoft don't realize is that big companies (especially big regulated companies) are really slow to move on things. Upgrade to IE 8 is not really a valid answer. A large regulated company will spend months testing, and in many cases it will take years to go upgrade. Now if IE didn't encourage people to violate web standards, then it wouldn't be that bad. But unfortunately it does and people do. So fixing things to work with IE7 or even IE8 after IE 6 is a pretty big deal.

    So good luck with that. I know my company is going to be running IE 6 for at least another year, maybe more. They have to go slow because it is a financial company and they are subject to all sorts of SOX controls and regulations. Also upgrading browsers does not immediately generate revenue so it is not a high priority. They don't even use the right resources for testing so it drags out much longer than it should....

    I worked at a Microsoft Fanboy company but even then it took a good 6 months to test all the apps with IE 7 and there the roll out wasn't company wide, just that division. There was also a project in Parallel to fix the issues and move all development projects to Visual Studio 2005. They properly staffed based on what they had, and it still took 6 months. And they were Microsoft Fanboys. I mean SQL SErver 2005 comes out, they need to upgrade within a year. SQL Server 2008 comes out, they put on a project to upgrade within a year. Windows Vista comes out, they need to upgrade.... And even there 6 months time is a lot of time to be exposed to a vulnerability. And they are the exception not the rule.

    For many companies a security issue or browser upgrade does not generate revenue and is super low priority....

  54. If their browsers are broken... by postmortem · · Score: 1

    Microsoft should have said to use Firefox or other browser in the meantime. That is real (at least temporary) solution and workaround for the problem.

    Using IE6 problems to advertise IE8 is not.

  55. I need MSIE to apply for a job at Comcast by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    Comcast will not accept an non-IE browser. So, I suppose it does make to stay with msie, at least it's accepted by more websites.

    1. Re:I need MSIE to apply for a job at Comcast by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      OK, just because it doesn't support Konqueror or Opera doesn't mean I should get all paranoid, does it?

  56. Just how ridiculous... by YankDownUnder · · Score: 1

    Excuse me, HOW MUCH is Microsoft worth nowadays? And for all that money, they can't STILL YET seem to fix a bloody software problem? They can't still seem to get just ONE PROGRAM RIGHT? Not one? Even a teeny-weeny little program? And they're worth HOW MUCH MONEY? Just a simple program? What? Nothing?

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    YankDownUnder Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire
  57. So microsoft software is flawed and vulnerable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So with the zero day exploit and blah blah, microsoft is claiming that its software is flawed and vulnerable, and was rushed out the door to meet marketing and sales demands, rather than having tested and checked the software to see if its really ready or not? The hell you say! I would not have thought such an upstanding organization blah blah could possibly blah blah. Cue the fanbois! Its an undocumented feature! This zero day exploit ensures that if microsoft wanted to post patches to your computer, they could get in without asking, thus saving you the trouble of having to do the work yourself. You also don't have to send in feedback as to how you are using your computer, as they can find out on their own. The same with banking information. They can just send you the latest software in the mail, and take the money out of your bank account instead of you having to buy it yourself. Isn't that conveniient? Similarly, if your kid has had medical issues, they can tailor software to meet your needs, and send it to you (no fussy bills to pay, they know your bank account number). Upgrade people, upgrade. Oh, and remember to thank the developers, developers, developers, developers.

  58. Good for Web Developers... by ouimetch · · Score: 1

    As a web developer I am elated that this might help drop IE 6/7's market share. If in the near future I only needed to make fixes for IE 8 my life would be a lot easier.

  59. Take some $#@*$ responsibility for once! by Joe+U · · Score: 1

    Having radio button somewhere that makes your OS vulnerable to _KNOWN_ exploit is really stupid idea.

    You can only idiot-proof the OS so much. The end users need to have some responsibility for their actions.

    It's like putting a lock on your door and leaving it unlocked. Should the lock manufacturer prevent you from leaving the door unlocked? They can, but then when you have a situation where you need the door always unlocked you're out of luck.

    There are situations where you need to run IE and Windows in lower security modes, mostly due to poorly written legacy software. Microsoft can only help you so much, they have been pushing security since NT 3.1, most companies ignored the guidelines, (AOL, Apple, Macromedia/Adobe, EA, Sony and Google to name a few HUGE ones). MS finally got tough with them with Vista and 7. The problem is, now lots of users run out and disable UAC or DEP because some app doesn't play nice with it, or they have to run Everquest as an administrator, because games need admin access for some reason, or older versions of AIM needed to violate DEP, or Google Toolbar wouldn't run in IE7 with high security on. Who's fault is this? MS for not breaking legacy apps, software companies for writing sloppy code, or end users for putting up with this crap?

  60. I did upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I did upgrade, a long time ago to Netscape, then Firefox and next to Ubuntu.

  61. Really, we brought this on ourselves by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

    I have been around long enough to remember when a browser was JUST a browser ( no I am not talking about Linx ) but early versions of NetScape.

    The problem fundamentally one of overreaching..

    It is all part of the "Hey look what I can make this thing do!!" syndrome.

    And yes this is a syndrome and all of us, myself included, are suffering from it. We want to impress our peers, we want to make the computer sit and beg, rollover and play dead whatever ...

    NONE of this yummy was ever thought all the way through and I mean since HTML version 0.01, CSS 0.01 and beyond. We still have the checkbox control that is never returned by the browser unless it's checked! and how long have we all had to write stupid work around's for that stupidity.

    We want the browser to be everything text rendering program, application container, remote control device you name it. We gave it the ability to get to the OS ( upload files through your browser much? ), we started giving it hooks into everything without thinking about the consequences of our actions, "Hey lets make the browser a Word Processor, lets make it a spreadsheet!! Hey wow look at what I can do!", lets give it a scripting language, lets give it the ability to do XYZ and all of that has to hook into the OS at various levels.

    In typical Microsoft style the had to one up everyone and do it badly, but we led them down this garden path, so really we have no one to blame but ourselves for the current mess of security problems that effect all browsers but more so Microsoft because they chose to allow the browser to go even deeper into the OS then anyone.

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    Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  62. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    That's a bad analogy, because the TFA only suggests customers to upgrade to IE8 from a previous version. It doesn't appear to be a money grab, i.e. (no pun intended) there's no recommendation to switch from say Firefox to IE8.

    #1. They are still recommending that you upgrade from one faulty product to another.

    #2. You're absolutely right. They are NOT recommending a different browser, and therefore, it is absolutely about a money grab. Remember that there are literally millions of potential waiting in the wings with aging hardware looking to upgrade to a new computer and new OS at any given moment. I'd say Microsoft is doing everything in their power(with right or wrong recommendations) to keep said group from upgrading to a Mac.

  63. Microsoft recommends XP users to upgrade by William+(Dthdealer) · · Score: 1

    I was listening on the radio this morning and a supposed Microsoft statement was read out on ABC (Australia) AM. As well as upgrading Internet Exploder they also reccomended 'users of Windows XP' upgrade to later versions of Windoze.

    Microsoft even exploits bad publicity for their upgrade cycle.

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    Linux has bugs. Windows has holes. I am +10/11GMT.
  64. Re:Faulty Products. A comparison. by MacWiz · · Score: 1

    I guess the "go fix your shit and don't come back until it's done" mentality is rather dead these days...

    Internet Explorer has been vulnerable since the first version, but that's still what most people use. Microsoft says to "upgrade" anyway. And most people will -- whether Microsoft fixes their shit or not.

    The productivity wasted as 80 percent of the country's computer users install patches every week or two has to be staggering. And you'll still be vulnerable. Not to worry, though. Another security patch will be on the way.

  65. Re:Upgrade to Opera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, we should encourage those fuckwads to drink a nice tall frost glass of bleach as they are too fucking stupid to even exist let alone use a computer.