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India Moves To Put Its First Man In Space By 2016
An anonymous reader writes with this snippet from the International Business Times: "India plans to launch its first manned space mission in 2016, moving to become the fourth nation to put a man in space. Space scientists and senior officials of the state-run ISRO are preparing a pre-project report to build the infrastructure and facilities for the mission, estimated to cost a $2.76 billion. 'We are planning a human space flight in 2016, with two astronauts who will spend seven days in the Earth's lower orbit,' Radhakrishnan told reporters at ISRO headquarters in Bangalore. In September, India's Chandrayaan-1 satellite discovered water on the moon, boosting India's credibility among established space-faring nations"
Man in space. I eat saag paneer to celebrate! I love ravi.
But I am not doubting the intent. In fact, it is refreshing to see a nation not simply looking at short term but thinking in terms of long term goals but in a concrete way. Its a great thing to have the community of nations dedicated to space exploration expanding in any case.
ACK
hey, at least the species isn't completely backwards.
What do you think, sirs?
Space vs. Software
For the sake of whoever is getting sent up, I hope that they build spacecraft better than they build software, because all of the software I've seen written over there has been pretty damn awful.
I hope EVERYBODY builds spacecraft better than they build software. India does not have a monopoly on crappy software by any means; it's pretty much the status quo for almost everyone.
-- Terry
The US will be able to outsource space exploration overseas!!! Oh goody.
--Greg
Obligatory comment about competition in returning to space, etc.
I'm really interested to see what the general populace's response will be when other nations start going into space, landing on the moon, etc. versus what the U.S. space program will be doing at that time.
Can anyone chime in with NASA's current timetables? Could there be public outcry for more NASA funding, or will there just be a media campaign to make our space program *sound* relevant?
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with the US's new direction. It's now official. Technical leadership has been ceded to Asia.
Maybe it's time to elect some politicians interested in space.
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
While in geo-synchronise orbit over every major continent, call center employees will be available to answer your computer questions both day and night.
Ha ha. Let's make fun of the Indians and run through the usual 'call center' jokes because nobody has ever though of that before, huh?
This announcement comes on the same day that it has emerged that the US administration has no intention of going to the moon, in a time when the US national debt clock has needed an extra digit added to it, when the US is still recovering from the diplomatic and geo-political catastrophe what was the Bush years, and all you can do is crack jokes about Indians because they have started turning a hugely populated and impoverished country around using the latest opportunities afforded to them by technology. Hmmm.
Enjoy your inflated sense of superiority while it lasts, because it isn't gonna as long as people like you sit back on the Apollo moon landing's laurels and fiddle while Rome burns. The developing world is emerging onto the world stage. The EU is already the world's biggest economy. China and India have poverty on the run and are making in-roads into LEO. What's the USA doing? Still putting out fires in Mesopotamia, trying to catch up to the rest of the industrialized world in figuring out how to treat people when they're sick, and figuring out how to stop consuming a quarter of the world's resources.
Yup, you go right on cracking your jokes. Ha fucking ha. You won't be laughing so loud when you see the red flag of China over the Sea of Tranquility.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
The more alternatives for manned space flight, the less dependent we become on the space agency of one single nation. An agency that battles not only technical difficulties but also perpetual budget problems.
I hope for more international cooperation in the future. Sending up your own astronauts gets your country a fair bit of prestige. Sending up astronauts from other nations also gets you friends.
People make claims about the wane of western dominance in every U.S. recession. It makes them feel intellectual to go against the grain and naysay.
Besides, your point doesn't even make sense. 400 years ago, there wasn't a U.S. and there wasn't industry, so it's not a valid comparison. What does it matter if India and China had big economies in a time when the biggest economy was farming?
I would have used that new sacrasm tag, but it's patented.
Even if Constellation wasn't cancelled, there were no plans to launch people before 2016. I mean, come on, it was only announced in 2004. Nobody could possibly go from paper project to manned mission in 12 years! Its not possible!
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Investing in science is fixing the poverty.
Long live the BSD license
but by what standards?
By the standard of building and maintaining their own aerospace infrastructure. I'm sure they'll import technology, just as the Americans imported the robotic manipulators on the shuttle and ISS from Canada, but the overall management of the American space program is American, in the same way the overall management of the Indian space program is Indian.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
Especially since a lot of scientists in these programs tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds. As much flak as the reservation systems get from middle class Indians (essentially a quota-based affirmative action program) its been phenomenally successful at catapulting at least moderately gifted individuals from impoverished backgrounds (the primary criticism leveled against reservations has been that those students are typically admitted with significantly lower than average test scores) into cutting edge scientific research and high technology industries.
Obama wants to cancel NASA's moon mission: Linky
Stephen Hawking said it best:
"I don't think the human race will survive the next thousand years, unless we spread into space. There are too many accidents that can befall life on a single planet..."
If the government insists on squandering space progress, we as a nation need to look to private industry to move the ball forward.
To say nothing about Americans living on the verge of "crapping in the streets" because our jobs are being exported to India at an exponential rate! But, by golly, we've got three space shuttles and a useless ISS that will be destroyed in a glorious, flaming ball when it re-enters the atmosphere in a few years!
*WHOOSH*
There wasn't modern industry, but there was economy. So your second point is as dribblingly retarded as your first.
Your post just demonstrates that you don't know much about economics, so I'd lay off the insults.
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
Hmm, you're saying that those two economies were larger than the economy of the Europe/Mediterranean region? Because that's the apt comparison... I'm not saying you aren't correct, I'm just curious as to what economies you compare them to. I'm also very curious as to what your source is... 400 years ago Europe had a far different economy than India or China, with industrialism beginning to take root.
In short, Citation Needed.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
While in geo-synchronise orbit over every major continent, call center employees will be available to answer your computer questions both day and night.
Ha ha. Let's make fun of the Indians and run through the usual 'call center' jokes because nobody has ever though of that before, huh?
This announcement comes on the same day that it has emerged that the US administration has no intention of going to the moon, in a time when the US national debt clock has needed an extra digit added to it, when the US is still recovering from the diplomatic and geo-political catastrophe what was the Bush years, and all you can do is crack jokes about Indians because they have started turning a hugely populated and impoverished country around using the latest opportunities afforded to them by technology. Hmmm.
Enjoy your inflated sense of superiority while it lasts, because it isn't gonna as long as people like you sit back on the Apollo moon landing's laurels and fiddle while Rome burns. The developing world is emerging onto the world stage. The EU is already the world's biggest economy. China and India have poverty on the run and are making in-roads into LEO. What's the USA doing? Still putting out fires in Mesopotamia, trying to catch up to the rest of the industrialized world in figuring out how to treat people when they're sick, and figuring out how to stop consuming a quarter of the world's resources.
Yup, you go right on cracking your jokes. Ha fucking ha. You won't be laughing so loud when you see the red flag of China over the Sea of Tranquility.
Not to rain on your party or anything, but the instrument that found evidence of water on the moon was designed and built by NASA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_%28PPP%29
Its sourced basically from one guys research, which some people disagree with. But with serious academic research that's practically a tautology.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
It is a good thing (IMHO) to see more countries developing their own space programs to send their own astronauts to space. To my knowledge, only Russia, U.S. and China have programs that have done so.
Competition always fosters excellence in all areas of academics & sciences.
He is probably a follower of the 'knowledge' economy. The idea that patent trolling, proprietary software, and financial derivatives are real tangible goods and you don't need anything else. Any conception of economics that disregards the fact that your economic agents will die after a couple of weeks without food, is simply a joke.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Western dominance is an anomaly.
The ancient Romans are on Line 1. They'd like to debate the matter with you and claim to have 400 some odd years of historical reference to draw upon. The Greeks are on Line 2 and claim to have another century or two to contribute.
The West has dominated in a military sense since Salamis. No foreign power has ever managed to achieve total military or economic dominance over the West. There have been periods of Western decline but Western civilization always manages to rebound in the end. I'm not overly concerned about the death of Western civilization.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Boy, they certainly had me fooled. Last I looked, poverty was still the rule of the day in both China and India and it didn't appear to be vanishing too quickly. But the rich are very quickly getting richer, that much is for sure.
On the other hand, toxic waste and industrial pollution has skyrocketed in both nations (China moreso than India.)
NASA isn't completely shutting down it's manned space program with the cancellations, they are just 'off-shoring' it to India...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Once they get this technology up and running we can outsource our space science to them too.
I think I could be helpful in producing the needed processed materials.
Well, India is an economy that needs access to space. There's no question of that. Between communication and remote sensing, space is critical to India's long term economic development -- and lifting people out of poverty.
The question is whether it is a good investment, when they can rely on the US and Europe -- at least for non-manned access to space. There is is India's tradition of non-alignment to consider. It is attractive not to be dependent on great powers for something so important. Also, expecting an investment in space to pay off in the short term is unreasonable. Twenty years off India might well become a dominant player in the commercialization of space.
But why manned? If people were computers, it would make no sense. But we're not. We have these irrational emotions that have to be played to get the most out of us. There is something exciting about joining the club of "spacefaring nations", more exciting than putting clever little robots in space. I can see Japanese getting inspired by that, but Japanese engineers are an unique breed I think. Once I saw a Japanese engineer give a presentation about the fuzzy logic algorithm he'd used to control the agitator in a washing machine. We're talking that thing that sticks up in the middle of the washing machine and swishes back and forth. It only has one freaking degree of freedom, and this guy was waxing so poetic about it that he was moved to the brink of tears.
Right then and there I resolved never to invest in an American company that made washing machines.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Actually, those are directly related. Part of the reason NASA doesn't have the cash to boldly go, is that they're busy maintaining the ISS, a giant metal albatross. And when one person says "drop the thing and move on," another says "oh, it'd be a shame to waste it just as we're finishing construction".
Revive the Constitution.
They will! But that's not the whole story.
While it is true that the Indian Government could be said to have more immediate concerns, a space program for a country of its size is not entirely without merit. The Apollo program employed over 400,000 people. People working in high tech jobs, all related to science, technology and mathematics. The technologies developed for that program and the experience of the people who worked on it stood to the economy and society of the US for many years during and after. There's also an effect on even primary education as interest in science and technology is sparked in younger minds. If nothing else, the Indian space program might help persuade their best educated graduates to stay in their home country and improve it rather than emigrate for better paying jobs.
But whatever you might have to say about such a space program, at least the Indians aren't wasting trillions on unproductive foreign campaigns. When you ask yourself why the US has no decent space program anymore, you need look no farther than the money wasted over the last eight years.
May the Maths Be with you!
Roughly translated: "..And first Quickie Mart on the Moon in 2019!!!!"
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
A little bit of perspective is called for here.
Yes, vast numbers of people living in crushing poverty are a drain on the Indian economy and a potentially destabilizing influence on its government. But India is huge, period. There are more people living in middle class conditions in India than there are Americans total.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
If an Indian gives you a time estimate, you need to double it.
The Apollo program employed over 400,000 people. People working in high tech jobs, all related to science, technology and mathematics
I don't know what the net effect of the Apollo program was, but the line quoted above is just a variation of the "broken window fallacy".
"The word is derived from the Sanskrit Jaganntha[1] (meaning "Lord of the Universe") which is one of the many names of Krishna from the ancient Vedic scriptures of India." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut
Seems like a perfect fit to me.
In other news, Greece has reconfirmed its plans to send men into space, choosing to call them Argonauts. However, critics cite that their plans are "a few thousand years" behind schedule, and technical experts are skeptical of the viability of sheep skin space suits.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
How do they get their spacesuit helmets to fit over their turbans????
Which is exactly what will happen as NASA becomes a side issue.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Let's hope they can make something sustainable and profitable (Hint: Manned space-based low earth orbit solar power stations are where the money is going to be guys).
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I'm fairly sure the USA is the only one to ever get humans out of LEO (on the Apollo moon missions). Russia (Soviet Union) has successfully landed unmanned probes on other bodies, however, including the Moon, Venus, and I think Mars.
When somebody says "Houston we have a problem". The answer will come from there.
He's right that a space program has a lower opportunity cost than a war, however.
There is no way that post is _sarcastic_. It was a joke. That's what you intended and what the replier understood. However, he also pointed out that that joke is old and unfunny. You probably didn't have illusions of superiority (heck, maybe you're not even from the US) though. Anyway, just adding a "sarcasm tag" afterward won't make it look better, it's still a lame stereotypical joke that adds nothing to the discussion.
ics
No, it's not the broken window fallacy. No goods were destroyed here.
At worst it's New Deal fallacy, but then I might say it's BS as well. (Hey, all those people in the Universities are doing useless research ? )
Go wooosh yourself.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
IMF World Economic Outlook says India's economy was up 7.3% in 2008, up 5.6% in 2009, and predicted to be up 7.7% in 2010. China's economy was up 9.6% in 2008, up 8.7% in 2009, and predicted to be up 10% in 2010. Meanwhile the United States' economy was up 0.4% in 2008, down 2.5% in 2009, and predicted to be up only 2.7% in 2010.
People are keeping a very close eye on emerging market economies like Brazil, Russia, India, China, Mexico, etc. They have been behind, but that means they have a lot of potential to grow, and many of them have been doing a good job at outpacing the United States' economy in recent years.
That all aside, the original comment for this thread was just stupid. In terms of comedic value it was beyond stale. Other than that it's tasteless. I don't think I've ever been on the phone with a tech support rep who was in India. Meanwhile I've been to India twice in the past few years and know that call centers are just about zero percent of their cultural identity. Just because some Americans have some exposure to this one small profession in India, they have extrapolated it into this whole stereotype for an entire country. I guess that's just ignorance.
If there is any stereotype of Americans which is absolutely accurate, it would be that Americans are ignorant.
Trash and bash all you like, but open societies are superior,
Huh? India certainly has its share of problems, but where do you get the idea that they don't have an "open" society? That criticism would certainly apply to China, where censorship is the norm, but India really isn't that different from the US. You're not going to go to jail there for practicing an unpopular religion like Falun Gong, or criticizing the government. They do have religious tensions and associated violence in rural areas, but a lot of stuff goes on in rural areas in the US that isn't legal either. India has a democratic government just like the US (even though many of its politicians are corrupt, but again, that's just like the US too).
Honestly, while I'd agree that "open societies are superior to closed societies", there really aren't many "closed societies" left: China (which has become a lot more open lately, to be fair), North Korea, Iran, etc. Even Russia isn't a "closed society" any more, since the fall of Communism there.
As for Indians and subsistence farming, that's certainly a far superior way of life than many Americans, who either sit around watching TV while collecting welfare or disability checks, or engage in various scams or MLMs. What percentage of Americans can rightfully claim to be gainfully employed? It seems most of them are just leaches and parasites: MLM members, real estate agents, lawyers, marketers, etc. Very few Americans actually produce anything of value any more.
Putting out fires in Mesopotamia? Hmmm. I hate to break it to you, but Iran doesn't just hate the U.S.
That's as maybe. But no one hates Iran as much as the US does. Except for Israel; but at least they have an excuse.
http://ihatehate.wordpress.com
Do turtles count?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zond_5
One that hath name thou can not otter
Disclaimer: I'm an Indian.
My sig has been answered.
Once I saw a Japanese engineer give a presentation about the fuzzy logic algorithm he'd used to control the agitator in a washing machine. We're talking that thing that sticks up in the middle of the washing machine and swishes back and forth. It only has one freaking degree of freedom, and this guy was waxing so poetic about it that he was moved to the brink of tears.
Right then and there I resolved never to invest in an American company that made washing machines.
Really? It makes me want to never invest in a Japanese company that makes washing machines. It's a frelling agitator for crying out loud. Why does it need fuzzy logic at all? Turn one way, then turn the other, repeat. It's not rocket science.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Make that part of a useless ISS. The "I" isn't for "I-merican".
http://ihatehate.wordpress.com
Once I saw a Japanese engineer give a presentation about the fuzzy logic algorithm he'd used to control the agitator in a washing machine. We're talking that thing that sticks up in the middle of the washing machine and swishes back and forth.
I think you're misunderstanding. He was simply talking about a setting for angora sweaters.
and Obama hasn't actually changed anything, and isn't substantially different from Bush.
Yes he is. He can read.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Really? It makes me want to never invest in a Japanese company that makes washing machines. It's a frelling agitator for crying out loud. Why does it need fuzzy logic at all?
I couldn't begin to do justice to this guy's passion for his work, but of course it's nuts to care that much about how to swish clothes more effectively. But the thing about mass produced goods is that what matters is marginal costs. Good design is the feature with the cheapest marginal cost of all. Maybe the computer control went in because it simplified the control system and made the thing cheaper to make, but once you'd done that it doesn't really cost any more to see if you can make it a tiny bit better.
In any case, I just don't believe in betting for the company whose employees are going through the motions asleep out of bed and against the company that has people who love their work.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I appreciate this post. If you haven't already, you should read The Elephant and the Dragon and I can't remember the author's name. Robin something.
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Maybe I should have phrased it, "Obama isn't acting substantially different from Bush in his governance".
Sure, I'll admit the guy is smarter, but it isn't making much difference with his actions. He's still mismanaging the country into the ground. (Part of this is probably because Bush wasn't really in control; his handlers, including Cheney, were.)
This might be taken as being anti-American, but it's not. Really, it's not.
I live in Scotland. My country is a lot older than America, to the extent that my house has trees in the garden that predate the USA. Somewhere round about the time that the Declaration of Independence was being signed, my house was having an extension built on an existing extension on the original house. We're the old guys. And from where I'm sitting, I can see the young guys.
America now looks like a possibly slightly backwards late teenager/early twenties guy, still pedalling around town on his outgrown BMX bike and making "Your Mom" jokes, while all the little kids that were too little for America to play with like India, Pakistan, Iran and China have now grown up a bit and got jobs and cars and girlfriends. And America really desperately wants to play, and throws his not inconsiderable weight around, but really until America grows up and starts acting like a responsible grown-up no-one wants to know.
America has slowly - over the past 20 years or so - made itself utterly irrelevant to the rest of the world.
The ISS and its direct predecessor, Shuttle-Mir program, has taught you and is still teaching you a great deal about long term habitation of space and methods of space assembly. Once those things are adequetly mastered in LEO, you need "only" radiation shielding and propulsion technology to reliably go much further; those can be relatively easily modelled. You really see no value in that?
Plus being an exercise in cooperation will end up usefull long term. As well as keeping the Russian space programme from total financial collapse and giving JAXA and ESA clear path towards their own manned systems (ESA is quite close, with their ATV and work into ATV Evolution)
One that hath name thou can not otter
He meant it would be Americans manning the phones to field questions from Indians.
Oh I'm sorry, I thought it was "mod opposite" day, when we hand out Insightful mods for being assholes.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Rao Yi, a 47-year-old biologist who left Northwestern University in 2007 to become dean of the School of Life Sciences at Peking University in Beijing, contrasts China’s “soul-searching” with America’s self-satisfaction. When the United States Embassy in Beijing asked him to explain why he wanted to renounce his American citizenship, he wrote that the United States had lost its moral leadership after the 9/11 attacks. But “the American people are still reveling in the greatness of the country and themselves,” he said in a draft letter. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/world/asia/07scholar.html?pagewanted=all
Putting more men on the moon isn't going to get us any closer to spreading into space unless we start a moon colony or something (although IMO that doesn't really count as "spreading"). The human race isn't going anywhere unless it can figure out a way to travel faster than the speed of light, which isn't looking very possible at the moment, and no crowd-pleasing trips to the moon or Mars are going to change that.
Also, i seriously doubt the Human race isn't going to survive the next millenium. Issues like overcrowding and global warming could kill a great many people, but I don't see them causing extinction. The only thing I can think of (other than a massive asteroid unlike any seen in millions of years) destroying the entire human race is a nuclear war.
I prefer to remain a part of the unwhooshed masses.
I think our excuse tends to be Israel, as well. The US has been pretty much "the" ... and Britain, I guess ... supporter of Israel.
It certainly needs some fixing. I don't know if what the current majority in Congress has in mind is "fixing" though. They have something significantly different in mind as far as an end-goal, it would seem (single-payer system). No, the current bill that is apparently stagnated is not a single-payer system, but many of the pushers for "health care reform" at the moment are in favor of a single-payer system.
...though TBH it's slightly hard to look at Persians as "not-West" in this historical context.
One that hath name thou can not otter
I'm not sure what a fair comparison is.
Ok, so the EU is a single economic entity. And their economic prowess is bigger than the US's. And I'm all for improving "my" (hehe) economy. I don't think spending more is going to do it and I don't think the current administration has any plan whatsoever along those lines. It's interesting; first they spent almost $1 trillion. Then they suddenly decide they need to fix the deficit. Seems a bit wishy-washy to me.
Of course, any time someone talks about cutting deficits and not spending what you don't have, someone else chimes in that debt isn't bad, we need to have debt and credit to function, etc... it tends to be a very circular argument. But I'm fairly certain that budget deficits are not good... and we seem to be in a very bad habit of getting massive budget deficits and not caring. And frankly, I'm ashamed that most Americans don't seem to care, either. It's not surprising though; they don't seem to even know what a budget IS :)
One datum to connect the report from TFA (and sadly but in fact detracting from it) and that elsewhere that the Obama budget contains no funding for Constellation:
If India launches people into space in 2016 it'll be the 4th nation but the 5th organization to do so. After China's manned orbital flights but before India's planned missions, two pilots earned their astronaut wings flying SpaceShipOne. TFA says they plan to stay a week, but the title does just say 'space'. After the Rutan Clan, every nation the sends up a space mission will be 'after a private company'.
True, there's an attempt to leave Constellation off the budget (but wait until after ASAP/BigAero has their say). But there's still ongoing support for private programs developing lunar oriented hardware as well as lift vehicles being developed that could make the attempt.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I'm neither Indian, Chinese nor American, but I truly hate the attitude so many American slashdotters have when the US loses out on some international comparison. I am doubtful that India will make it by 2016 unless they use re-engineered Russian technology, but the mere fact that India is trying while America is both staring at its own navel and running around like a headless chicken speaks volumes.
I still stand that it's disingenuous to compare the output of Moghul India or China to single European entities in the context of this argument (since today, Europe is a single economic entity for the purposes of this discussion).
Combined, Europe had a larger GDP than India in 1600, though China was very slightly larger.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Whatever. The real race is about who will become the first to establish a manned base on the Moon. China or India?
Us Westerners have become too iStupid and iObsessed with our iLives and iNtellectual property too pull it off. At least we'll be able to watch the video feed in high def.
Bush also didn't inherit an enormous national debt from a previous administration, did he? No, I do believe he started out with a surplus... The sad thing is, somehow, the far right has managed to cloud the issue by calling into question the surplus, and, what's worse, spread the untrue and utterly ludicrous notion that Bush reduced spending. They mysteriously pull a few cherry-picked and sometimes completely fictitious numbers out of their hat, and *WHRRRR-CHUGA-CHUGA-CHUGA-CHUGA* there goes the spin machine, hard at work.
What's interesting to note is the record of debt between the two major parties, going back all the way to the Kennedy-Johnson era. Neither party has been stellar, but it does seem an awful lot that during the periods of the so-called "fiscal conservatives" have actually been some of the highest debt periods our nation has had. Care to explain that?
This is all off-topic anyway. This is an article about freaking India and their space program, ergo, the wrong place to start a squabble over US politics.
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=159 http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=160
There will always be masses of poor in order that wealth may be concentrated for purposes good or ill.
Maybe it is more the natural state of affairs than an actual "problem" for the human race.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
people like you sit back on the Apollo moon landing's laurels and fiddle while Rome burns
??? Mars missions? GPS? Comm satellites? Space Shuttle? ISS? Apollo was a military exercise, in spite of its trappings as a peace mission. The US would and could put a Starbucks on Pluto if it was in its immediate national interest. The same cannot be said of either India or China. They are just now reverse engineering US (and Russian) technology to do things done with room-size computers 50 years ago. Where do you think India and China got their rocket/computing/communications technology in the first place? And what's burning exactly? Also...
What's the USA doing? Still putting out fires in Mesopotamia
First, I remind you that both India and China have benefited enormously from the energy excesses of the US and Europe during the 20th century. There would be no US market for Chinese/Indian goods/services without the West's exploitation of the Middle East. In fact, the reluctance of both nations to sign on to any binding climate resolutions is based mainly on the argument that they should be allowed
Call me Pakistani!!! [fires away with sub-machine gun]
Similar to the upcoming US election results
Bush was certainly not fiscally conservative. But he didn't actually start with a surplus. The National Debt increased every year of Clinton's two terms. The "surplus" that he produced was entirely illusionary.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Why combine Europe, but not combine India and China? The political reality in 1600 in Europe was a deeply divided one, nothing like the relatively harmonious block we have today.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
If it's a teleprompter.
The Commonwealth games (yeah, I know you never heard of it) are supposed to happen ~Oct/10 in New Delhi.
Words are that the preparations aren't going well.
If you cannot even host a sporting competition, it doesn't augur well in a space program.
That said, I'd like to point out that the ONLY reason China and India have anything like a real economy at this point is that US (and to some degree EU) consumers went into heavy debt to buy all those US-branded, Indian/Chinese-made toys, electronics, textiles, etc. Should the US and/or Europe decide that unfettered globalization is not in its best interest after all (already happening), both China and India would be cut off from by far the largest market in the world (US=14 trillion, China=4 trillion)
What you say might be true for China, but Indian economy is mainly driven by internal consumption. It is not an export driven economy.(India is a net importer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India#External_trade_and_investment
India's economy is mostly dependent on its large internal market with external trade accounting for just 20% of the country's GDP. In 2008, India accounted for 1.45% of global merchandise trade and 2.8% of global commercial services export
So US/EU stopping trade with India wouldn't be catastrophic for the Indian economy.
If it's a teleprompter.
Ah, the old 'Obama can't read without a teleprompter' canard. I guess you haven't actually watched him in a press conference and compared with er George uh W um Bush uh uh...
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Especially for the many millions of Indians without a basic education and sanitation. They'll remain illiterate and crapping in the streets, but they will feel extatic about their fellow Indian in space.
For fuck's sake! Why does this garbage still manage to evade the Troll mod? Read my lips, idiot. Money spent ON space is not spent IN space. It's spent on the ground creating jobs and driving innovation and education, all of which helps to generate wealth and raise people out of poverty. Speaking of education, when, pray tell, are you planning on getting one? Hmmm?
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Is it certain that they have selected a man, rather than a woman - and if so, why? Is it advantageous to have a penis in space?
NASA is not being canned. Only the useless, unscientific boondoggle that is Constellation. The interesting part of NASAs output (the robotic missions) aren't being defunded.
Oh brother. Even Krusty the Klown would have groaned at telling that joke and immediately lit a cigarette.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
It is a common error to delude oneself into believing the trappings of power and strength are power and strength themselves. You see it all the time, when folks fritter away their home equity loans on big-vroom SUVs and fancy appliances, allowing ourselves the delusion (for a temporary while) that we've still "got it made", as long as they have these things around them. In truth, had we the wisdom to forgo these external symbols of a comfortable existence, the American Dream would be much more alive today.
I perceive the response to the U.S. withdrawl from manned space exploration in much the same way. "Asia is taking the lead because they're still launching Spam-in-a-Can into space! Therefore, we need to launch more Spam-in-a-Can, and it will make us stronger!" I find there's a certain cargo-cult mistaking of which was cause, and which was effect. In the past, we have had a great deal of technological innovations associated with the space exploration program -- but it is a mistake to think because we're launching rockets we're driving innovation. It is was exactly the other way around; because we had a such strong base in engineering and science we were able to create the technologies to launch those rockets.
China and India's increasing economic and technological competence are what have allowed them to take the lead now, and it's a mistake to think that we can stay ahead if we just keep up with appearances. We can play mid-life crisis and blow our remaining resources on the equivalent of a fancy sports car, and make-believe we're still a studly, vigorous nation. But to the rest of the world, we just look increasingly ridiculous.
The man was Indian but the spacecraft was Soviet.
It's sad when someone is this unaware of history.
The same criticisms were brought up in the U.S. during the Apollo project. Why send a man to the moon when people in Harlem didn't have basic health services? You might want to check out "Whitey on the Moon" by Gil Scott-Heron. Opening lines:
A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face and arms began to swell.
(and Whitey's on the moon)
I can't pay no doctor bill.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Ten years from now I'll be payin' still.
(while Whitey's on the moon)
In hindsight, I think you'd agree that the whole manned space thing was probably worth it...
Support microSD: in a post 9/11 world, it is unwise to carry your data on media that you cannot comfortably swallow.
Talk about your playstation generation. 5 years is not long term, except in political circles where it's past the next election.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
The question is whether it is a good investment, when they can rely on the US and Europe -- at least for non-manned access to space.
We don't have to. We've had that capability for about 35 years now, starting with SLV-3 in the 70s, and going upto ASLV, PSLV and now GSLV (look em all up on Wiki).
India's first satellite, Aryabhata was launched in 1975. Since then, we've made incremental advances in homegrown launch technology (with the aforementioned vehicles) and India's ISRO now also launches satellites for other countries.
Chandrayaan was the first time we sent anything beyond Earth's orbit, and the manned mission follows as the next logical step.
"..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."
Blah blah blah America still has the bomb so it can make the debt clock go back to zero when we please and nobody can do a thing about it.
I foresee the powerful astronaut union becoming upset by the outsourcing of jobs here.
I have to admit I'm at a complete loss when I see people (apparently) hoping for China to replace the US as world superpower.
Yes, we have screwed up, but if you really, truly think that the PRC is going to be better for the world than the USA is... well, I don't know what to say.
Yes, it is the broken window fallacy because it basically assumes that since jobs were created, it was the best thing we could have possibly done with the money. We could also pay people to jump up and down and argue that we generated 400,000 jobs with that program and therefore it was good.
We need to be able to evaluate the benefits of various programs and choose the best one. The OP seems to be suggesting that creating social programs to educate, feed and clothe the poor and reduce crime would have a greater net benefit to society than sending people into space. I don't know whether or not I agree, because that's a very challenging and important decision to make that would require deep thought, but arguing that "this program created X jobs and therefore helped the economy" IS a variation of the broken window fallacy.
For suitably small values of "answer".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
While it's true that they're in decline - relative or absolute - I'd hardly describe a country with the USA's military and economic power as "utterly irrelevant".
You can see parallels between the USA now and Britain just before - or just after WW2.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Because you're projecting on world economies TODAY and in the future, where Europe is a single unit economically.
The only reason why not combining Europe into a single unit would make sense is if you believed that the currently-growing European economic hegemony will disintegrate during the scope of your prediction.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I have to admit I'm at a complete loss when I see people (apparently) hoping for China to replace the US as world superpower.
Yes, we have screwed up, but if you really, truly think that the PRC is going to be better for the world than the USA is... well, I don't know what to say.
WTF? Who said they wanted China to replace the US? Who said the PRC was going to be better for the world than the US? Are you on drugs?
Drill baby drill - on Mars
"Poverty in India is widespread with the nation estimated to have a third of the world's poor. According to the criterion used by the Planning Commission of India 27.5% of the population was living below the poverty line in 2004-2005"
Perhaps those funds earmarked for space exploration might be better spent on helping people not starve ?
I think one might argue that India might better spend its money fighting MASSIVE poverty.
The USA certainly has its troubles right now, but arguably it is more responsible to perhaps not spend on a space program when facing the greatest fiscal crisis since the great depression.
Considering that much (most) of India still exists in the dark ages, they might want to spend the money, on, oh I don't know, say infrastructure (like roads and sewers), education, health care, fighting the crazy corruption in government and every facet of getting anything actually done in India.
I am not even from the US.
I think it is pretty stupid and irresponsible for the Indian government to be working on a "space program" when so many other things need more immediate attention. Sure there might be some spin offs and technologies but realistically having a space program is a luxury.
The only reason they are doing it is for pride and to show off to the rest of the world that they can do it and that they are the part of the select group that can. However when most of your population lives in crushing poverty, you ain't fooling anyone.
Well, you did say "Yup, you go right on cracking your jokes. Ha fucking ha. You won't be laughing so loud when you see the red flag of China over the Sea of Tranquility."
That can be taken several ways.
And it's not necessarily you, I've seen quite a few people express that opinion.
It doesn't say one way or another whether Chinese dominance would be a good or bad thing. It's a statement about US attitudes to the developing world and how this "we're #1" hubris does not have an infinite shelf life.
Drill baby drill - on Mars