Slashdot Mirror
Does Microsoft Finally Have a Phone Worth Buying?
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has finally shown 'Windows Phone 7 Series' and it's supposed to be a completely new smartphone OS. A phone from Microsoft to get excited about that is going to work properly and take on the iPhone's world domination? "
Iphone world domination?
I don't know what world is being referred here, probably the marketing and fairy tale world. Last time I checked, Apple was a marginal player in the real world (i.e., not some particular geography or some fashionable pundits).
In the real world, Nokia might be the one to talk about, but even so, its share is far from "world domination"
There are still a lot of questions to be answered, before I can say if I like it or not... Does it support multitasking? How are notifications handled? How efficient is the down-scrolling action compared to the sideways swipe in a real world usage? How would apps look with this spill-over-the-side text philosophy? I agree that the fact that they have started completely from scratch is rather exciting, and also the minimalist design approach is rather bold, but until the above questions are answered it is hard to tell if this will end the "iPhone Domination"
Regards, Boyan
One reason why the iPhone is such a phenomenal phone is that the user interface permeates everything. Not just the immediate application screen or the app transitions, but at a fundamental level there is a symmetry and orthogonality of conceptualization that leads to a seamless user experience.
While that might sound like marketing gobbledygook, compare the Toshiba T-1 to the iPhone. Both have very cool initial user interfaces. In fact, the Toshiba (WinMo6.x) has a more interesting interface in that it changes to meet the user's needs without hardly any user input. However, once you dig past the first interface, it becomes clear that the WinMo phone is the same old WinMo crap underneath. There is no good widget set, there is no clear UI design guideline, and there is no good way to develop an app that doesn't end up feeling like a clunky mess. The iPhone, on the other hand, has a widget set that is reusable and has intuitive usage, there are very clear design guidelines, and most of all there are real artists who want to make apps for the platform.
If WinMo7 can break the Windows Mobile mold and really create something that provides a cohesive user interaction concept, then we may see a WinMo8. Otherwise, it may be the end of the road for this OS.
So 25% of the smartphone market, or about half of the Blackberry market share, is world domination?
Maybe if you got money to burn on a long shot.
Blackbery's storm kind of sucks (currently use) I would rather try google's phone before taking a chance with MS. Ever since that copy of Vista I bought when it first came out (which was the first MS product I had bought since I was a kid and bought their Force Feedback joystick..what a piece of crap). I won't by anything MS unless I test it first.
Does Microsoft Finally Have a Phone Worth Buying?
*Looks at old POS Moto Q9C*
*Looks at current POS Palm Pro*
Combining the canard that "It isn't the OS, it's the hardware" with the admonition about fooling me twice, I'm gonna have to say... "No."
As a complete Apple fanboi, and one who owns 3 macs and swears by his iPod Touch (I don't like AT&T), I've got to say, that thing looks like it has a really nice interface. Kudos to MS, just from glancing at it (and not having played with it) it looks like the interface could be nicer than both the iPhone OS and Android. If this came out for my cell carrier I would have a tough time deciding between it and an Nexus One. I use Windows 7 at work and have enjoyed it (mostly because MS copied so many of things I prefer about the Mac interface onto Win7, it isn't OS X yet, but getting closer) and I'm willing to keep an open mind about this.
*Another* piece? Care to name some recent ones? Like in this decade?
So, that's the catch. You MUST drop flash support to be competitive in this market.
*Another* piece? Care to name some recent ones? Like in this decade?
WinFS. But then again, the OP was begging the question: Microsoft isn't really all that bad in the vaporware department.
Even if Windows Phone 7 (or whatever cute name marketing comes up with) is the best thing since sliced bread, Apple and Google will continue to release three software versions for Microsoft's one, ensuring that MS will once again be left in the dust.
You have to wonder why MS continues to try their hand in areas where has no advantage -- or clue, really. The best engineers on the planet can't win in the face of poor management and squabbling VPs.
Ballmer's arrogance knows no bounds.
It's Linux, damnit! Pay no attention to renaming attempts by self-aggrandizing blowhards.
This is a serious step 1 here. I have had several Windows Mobile phones in the past. What sold me on the iPhone was that I could hear the phone ring, and actually receive the call. With Windows Mobile, more often than not, I would get the call.. go to answer... phone locks up... reboot phone... call person back. FAIL on the basic UI of the phone. The other features would work well... just often found myself rebooting the phone when it came time to get a call.
Has anyone posted this video of the interface yet?
http://www.windowsphone7series.com/multimedia/Media2
I hope they keep the UI design team that put this together. It's a refreshing change from the escalating UI-candy wars.
The fact they're dictating the exact hardware and layout makes me wonder whether (even though the software looks decent) this could crash and burn. Why should hardware manufacturers give up [what is effectively their creative control] for this OS, when they can make whatever they want and shove Android on it with no restrictions?
Perfect. Can I run it on my vaporware iPad?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Oh wow. "BSOD." "FreeBSD" elitist. "Interesting."
This came up in the Dutch 'Volkskrant' (newspaper, literally "people's paper"). It purported to show some live video of the phone 'launch'. I did not get to see this video, instead I was told that my browser and platform were not supported so sorry this Silverlight video is not for you.
Funny, that. This browser and platform have no problems showing video. I guess this phone is just not for me...
Silly Microsoft. You can not even show a video without building walls around it and still you want me to believe you can build a phone to interact with the real world?
Ha. Good one. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it...
--frank[at]unternet.org
No goofy shading and transitions? Simple design? No backgrounds?
This has promise. I'm a "black screen wallpaper" guy, and until Windows 7 I used the "classic" look in windows (I'm still considering switching back, as the whole translucent thing is more a distraction than anything else).
What I want is a finger-operable OS that allows quick access to all my programs (and easy program switching), is finger operable, makes scrolling and web browsing easy (I've yet to see a browser that can reliably determine the difference in a small swipe vs a click), is finger controllable, and allows customizable parameters for most actions (when to ring, when not to, when to wake, when to sleep, when to check email, etc.), and - most importantly - is finger controllable.
I know that there are lots of people who want a PDA instead of a phone, and prefer using a stylus. Really - it's a phenomenal annoyance to have to pull out a stylus for practically every operation because the icons are the size of a piece of glitter. It's nice to see that they might be moving into the 21st century with their UI.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Sorry, Microsoft, but you guys claim that every release is the best thing since sliced bread. Having just finally gotten rid of my Samsung BlackJack II, with Windows Mobile 6.1, I can say that it was simultaneously the most promising, and most disappointing phone I've ever owned. I won't ever buy another Windows Mobile phone.
For now, I've got a used Blackberry (even this old one is way better than the Blackjack) while I wait for my AT&T contract to expire, then it is hello, Android.
Necron69
Work properly? from Microsoft? the company that made "Microsoft Works" an oxymoron? I don't think so.
On the Desktop OS arena, one always has to have SOME degree of MSFT compatibility. On smartphones there's plenty of choice and Microsoft is but a small player. So why even bother? let's keep them relegated to a corner.
Whether a person likes Microsoft or not [...] they are late to the phone game.
Microsoft's first OS for smartphones (Pocket PC 2002) was release in October 2001, that's over 5 years before Apple and a full 7 years before Google's foray into the mobile platform. You can say a lot, mostly bad, about it, but MS has been at this longer than those two companies put together.
Everyone and their mom aleardy had a phone when the iPhones came out, too, it didn't keep Apple from selling 34 million of them and making hundreds of millions in the process.
It's much improved from what we've seen in the past but there's a lot of room still for mistakes and bad UI decisions.
...And stability problems like every other windows phone I've seen.
No.
In two words, Hell no.
We don't need another fucking mobile platform, let alone one that Microsoft doesn't even have the balls to make a phone from. Google at least has the Nexus One.
That's why xda-developers has been in a "can't live without them" state as far as Microsoft and HTC go - MS and HTC have grounds to sue or C&D the people at XDA-Developers, but have decided not to because of the fact that a large portion of their customer base uses cooked ROMs for just the reason you describe - the vendors (AT&T, Verizon, etc.) have a bad habit of bloatwaring the phones.
The hardware vendors (such as HTC) usually do a good problem - it's the carriers that screw the users over with crap releases.
As to "Does Microsoft finally have a phone worth buying?" - they did years ago. Strangely enough, until the advent of Android, Microsoft actually had one of the more "open" phone OSes. iPhone development is heavily locked down, most of the other Linux-based handset efforts were either nonstarters or HEAVILY Tivoized, Blackberries can only be developed for in Java as far as I can tell.
Yes, I'm a pretty avid Linux user on the desktop, but for business/geek users, Windows Mobile is currently where it's at unless you are willing to deal with Verizon. (I'm not, and I won't go with T-Mobile because I'd actually like to use my phone within 20 miles of work/home.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
AT&T has a 30 day return policy on phones.
Windows Mobile is a completely different experience from the crap known as Vista. I've been a Windows (on Desktop) hater for years, however I started using WM phones at around WM5.0, and still stick with WM.
(If a decent Android phone becomes available on AT&T I might jump over...)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
"FAIL on the basic UI of the phone."
It's "Family Day" but I'm working, so I'm cranky and willing to burn the mod points (certainly off-topic for sure).
Using the word "fail" in broken english has now become classic douche-baggery. Don't just parrot the same tired crap you heard a couple of years back. Think up something new, please. I'm surprised you didn't find a way to work "Micro$oft" into the post.
Until you can buy one at the store, it's another piece of vaporware from Microsoft.
Actually no. It will remain vaporware even when it's on sale. Microsoft marketing is that good.
Why should anyone bother to reply to this? You're not willing to admit what is pretty obvious to the rest of the world - the iPhone really created a functioning 3rd-party app marketplace, that was generally a welcoming environment for developers (approval process notwithstanding) and a lot of great software either got migrated to or created especially for this platform. Before the iPhone, Moto wanted you to personalize your phone by purchasing "skins" - colored backgrounds, ringtones, and basically doodads. And you still ended up with all the stupid third-party revenue generation junk on your front page, whether you wanted it or not. iPhone was successful because Moto and party were trying to sell consumers something they had no intent to buy or even real interest in themselves (insert some non-funny dog food reference here.) It's clear Moto had utter contempt for its own target market while Apple employees were actually looking forward to owning and using their products.
You're putting words in his mouth. He said he didn't like Microsoft; he said he was using BSD. He didn't say he was using BSD because of Microsoft. It's sad that you would be so defensive that you have to read it another way.
*Another* piece? Care to name some recent ones? Like in this decade?
Vista. Something with the same name turned up but everything they promised didn't turn up with it.
Certified hardware - vapor
Better user experience - vapor
Most secure windows - vapor
It would make you more productive - vapor
And so on..
That is why I amended my statement - they've invested to few resources, to late. They aren't going to make some huge comeback now. I just can't see it happening. MS can't offer some "killer app" that just makes the rest of the market fall to pieces.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Did you see that for a manufacturer to get a license they have to dedicate a hardware button to the Bing-thing? I like my HTC with antiquated Windows Mobile, but with that condition I wouldn't upgrade even if it were feasible and free.
Pissed off your idiotic karma whoring post got turned into something for everyone to laugh at?
Yeah, I'm whoring for karma by posting as an AC. That's it! You've figured out my plan...
It isn't an iPhone killer when most of the comments in the thread are about the iPhone itself.
That's only because he left out some words: "... at a fundamental level there is a symmetry and orthogonality of conceptualization that leads to a seamless user experience to empower the core business for enterprise synergy and a strong paradigm shift."
Now, instead of burning, you fell asleep, right?
That gets repeated often, but so far no one has created a functioning 3rd-party app marketplace. Yeah, they got lots of adoption because they were the first to do it, and have been making a pretty penny as a result. But the developers are not.
Even the ones who have made good software have yet to recoup their initial investment. Apple's market ( and Android's, and the rest) are great for the established players in the market; the Skypes, the Amazons, the people who have the resources and brand recognition to put together a mobile version of what they're working on anyway. But as far as rewarding innovators, it's completely fallen flat. And that's going to cause problems in the long run, especially in Apple's environment which is so hostile to FOSS (so long as it's outside of Apple's offerings.)
I don't want movies, music, games, or a camera on a phone. I have better devices for all of that stuff.
Once you're carrying around a device which does movies, music, and games, it seems silly to have to carry an extra device just to make calls. Especially since the former device needs a SIM slot anyway to get on the Internet when not at home.
Sure, if you do a lot of outgoing phone calls, you need something better than a typical smartphone to do them on. The rest of us can live with somewhat limited phone ergonomics.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Until you can buy one at the store, it's another piece of vaporware from Microsoft.
Exactly. I liked how we never talked about the iPad before you could buy it for instance.
If I had a choice between the free Google OS and the Microsoft OS which costs more $, why would I want to make a phone with a Windows tax?
I don't see many reasons unless Microsoft is heavily subsidizing me. Google's brand at least has some marketing cache.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Vista isn't vapor. It's cement, mixed with lead and uranium. It's as real and as nimble as a glacier. I've seen tar pits that seem more fluid than a computer running Vista. Whatever it is, Vista is NOT vapor.
Entomologically speaking, the spider is not a bug, it's a feature.
Those seem to be the big areas where MS is falling behind in this race.
Slick interface on a smartphone that syncs to the desktop and has a modern embedded browser? There are plenty of those on the market today.
Where is a MS phone going to fit in? Users are not going to pay for MS services as they do for Apple services. If MS was going to give away online service, they already would. Well, I guess they do but not with the popularity of Google, since such services are ties to the OS, which is counter to what the web is.
No matter how pretty MS makes the phone, it is unclear why anyone would buy it. It could be that MS leaves the corporate market to blackberry, and focuses on consumers. This might work if the sold the phone for significantly less than cost, as they did with the xBox. If they did, they would be the only cell phone provider who does so. If they teamed with cricket and the low end carriers they could demolish the competition. Other than that, I hardly see anyone leaving a phone so they can be locked back to the desktop.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Actually that would be if my app actually ran on this pig. I have to rewrite it all, and all my propriatary corporate integration apps, database backends and productivity apps. Oh and I cannot customise my own theme even? It's turning into a worse lock in than the iPhone.
If I have to rewrite eveny app I use then I may as well port it to Android!
Note that when Apple demos their new products -- even months before the product is ready for release -- the demo is always performed on actual hardware. Whatever Jobs (or whoever) does driving the actual device is then shown on the big screen, sometimes with glitches. It's the best proof that your product is close to release.
Maybe Microsoft will do that today, but the video of the Windows Phone 7 we've seen so far is just that -- video -- that was probably generated on a PC. As a rule, if a vendor shows only a video of their human interface, it means the product isn't close to release. Maybe it's complete vapor. Maybe it's buggy as hell. Maybe it's slow. Maybe key features don't work yet.
Can Microsoft really close the gap between what they have today to a shipping phone in six months? Maybe, but Microsoft's track record in this area is poor. This has the earmarks of a standard preemptive Microsoft announcement hoping to stem the flood of iPhone converts.
Until you can buy one at the store, it's another piece of vaporware from Microsoft.
Exactly. I liked how we never talked about the iPad before you could buy it for instance.
Except one company (Apple) has a history of delivering what they promise, and another (Microsoft) does not.
It's not about a general rule of "we don't discuss product announcements", it's a general rule of "Microsoft announces things, then only occasionally delivers them"
Actually, I've never seen a BSOD on a WinMo phone. In my experience it's usually a direct reboot or a simple freeze...
You are exactly right, and other manufactures, like HTC, also provide their own UI which serves as the primary first-layer (and often second-layer) interactiveness that the user experiences. Generally this interface is very good, but as you say, when you get into the nitty-gritty, it's just WM underneath, which is the child of Pocket PC, which is the child of Palm-Sized PC (windows CE 2.11), which is the child of Windows CE 1.0, which was an _exact_ copy of the Windows 95 user interface. And here's the real problem - Microsoft has managed backwards compatibility all this time. There's still a huge amount that can be done while maintaining backwards compatibility, like using those widgets only with older apps. One of my biggest problems with WM 6.5 is its messaging system (specifically the user interface). HTC, again, tried to provide a layer over this as well, but it doesn't go deep enough. But the fact of the matter is the messaging system is implemented by Microsoft, thus they can do anything they want with it without having to worry about backwards compatibility.
I just have a hard time believing MS could get WM7 wrong. Mainly because everyone and their brother is now producing a decent mobile shell (Apple, Google, Palm, and I've just heard Samsung is joining the fray as well). So MS doesn't even have to do anything groundbreaking or original - merely being on par and in the same paradigm as everyone else would be good enough.
Better known as 318230.
I'm sorry, I guess you're right. What could I be thinking? Nobody's ever made any money on an iPhone app. My earlier comment still stands - before the iPhone, Moto and the rest only wanted you to buy "skins" and ringtones rather than functioning software to run on your phone. Maybe Moto execs love to buy new ringtones every month, but I'm suggesting they overlooked the notion of a phone as a platform for general 3rd party computing. The app markets for Droid and the rest only really came about as a response to the iPhone app store and resulting boom in app development. Regardless of whether individual programmers have profited from writing apps, the breadth of existing apps and the install base for them are good reasons for individuals to buy an iPhone.
It could always be worse. I'm sure they probably considered something like Windows Phone 7 Series Enterprise Professional before the person who had the final say in Marketing made them edit it.
"The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
And when you finally can buy it at the store, it’s another Zune from Microsoft. ;)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I work at Microsoft now. The development of smart phones here has followed the same pattern of development that has gone on here at Microsoft for years: the front line technical folks push for something innovative, upper management rejects it, Google or Apple then invents it some time later, then upper management suddenly decides they need to get in the business and pat themselves on the back for making the decision "spearhead" into new markets. I remember being in a meeting some years ago where some lower tech managers were proposing we get in the smart phone business, only to be told by some MBA they he should let the "big boys" handle the business decisions. Now the Apple has made a killing in the smart phone business they have their panties in a wad to do the same thing, only now it's probably too late to penetrate the market with dominance that was possible years ago. Nothing seems to get done here anymore unless some upper manager can make it their pet project and get all the credit for it.
So you're saying that MS has been at it that long, and they still haven't done it right? (Pending consumer response to their latest offering, of course.)
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Why do people insist on trolling as AC? Afraid to tarnish your karma because you know how stupid your comment is?
I'm really loving that interface. Stylish minimalism that should make it even easier to use than the iphone.
Best of all, solid, bold colours. None of that plasticy, shiny stuff that has been everywhere since the early days of 'Web 2.0'.
A real attempt to innovate mobile interfaces rather than cloning the iPhone is really surprising. I just hope they've really made an attempt to make it reliable unlike previous versions of WinMo.
OO OO ME TOO ME TOO!!
Longhorn? Does that come to mind? That never really materialized at all. It was stripped bare and released as Vista YEARS late, and then a late release for Windows 7 (aka Vista SP2). How's that for a few examples?
I haven't had a Windows BSOD in about 8 years that wasn't caused by drivers or faulty hardware. Both cases are easily fixed and not Microsoft's fault. Not to ask Windows has been "perfect", but most BSOD problems with Windows were very specific other than crappy Service Packs.
It WAS phenomenal when it came out, and still holds its own pretty well. There are now better alternatives, IMO, but the iPhone is still a device that does certain things leaps and bounds better than many of its imitators (reliably smooth kinetic scrolling comes to mind)...
Bah, I have yet to find a full-featured IDE in the AppStore.
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
I think I'd want the Windows Phone 7 Series Enterprise Professional phone. Anything less would require 7 or 8 additional packages at $500 each to get the full functionality.
My Motorola Q on Verizon did something similar when placing calls.
The phone would indicate a call failure but the call would actually go through and I was able to talk to the remote party.
It would self-correct if the remote party answered and then hung up, but if you got a never-ending ring or some remote system that would stay active forever you had to power the phone off to disconnect. Placing another call would fail (even though the phone thought it was disconnected).
Verizon had no fix and Motorola didn't either and it was a once a week or more phenomenon. Not enough to cause me to toss the phone but enough to be super annoying. And it was a problem that followed to a replacement Q that I got mid-contract when my first bricked.
Well, MS has been working on Windows for much longer, and it still sucks.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I have an app on the App Store. So far, I have made more than I invested. And that's without yet having received payment for 2009.
Until you can buy one at the store, it's another piece of vaporware from Microsoft.
Exactly. I liked how we never talked about the iPad before you could buy it for instance.
Except one company (Apple) has a history of delivering what they promise, and another (Microsoft) does not. It's not about a general rule of "we don't discuss product announcements", it's a general rule of "Microsoft announces things, then only occasionally delivers them"
But it becomes a bit ironic when the big example of recent MS vaporware used by other posters right here in this thread is how MS dropped WinFS from Vista. Which is exactly matched by how Apple dropped ZFS from OSX ;) http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=584
Even if this is something to get excited about, the Engadget demo made it seem like a piece of shit. The start screen was clunky and ugly, and it only had enough room for about 4-6 icons before you have to scroll to a new page. The touch recognition was sloppy, often engaging a function when the user was still trying to scroll around. Then they showed the keyboard interface which even further showed off the terrible touch recognition - the guy tried to touch one key and got registered and could barely navigate.
This thing needs some serious refinement. Until then, it looks like another Zune to me.
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
At no time did Microsoft ever promise to re-write Windows from the ground up based on .NET.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Microsoft may have the right idea in their continued attempts to compete in the smartphone market. The main reason for this is that there is no clear dominant force in smartphone OS's at this time.
The Apple Iphone has been a favorite. But take into account it has only been on the market for a few years. The Iphone is expensive, and it is only offered through AT&T. All of this limits the market share possible for Apple.
Google's Android is gaining speed fast. But again, the first android phone to be released was only a little over a year ago.
As far as all the cheaper phones are concerned. I have no idea what OS they run. Some minimal smartphone tech is bound to enter the market.
I think Microsoft could still be a powerful player in the mobile phone market if they can release a quality platform. That may be their biggest hurdle yet, they tend to be their own worst enemy.
oldhack: "Security is a waste of money until shit hits the fan. 5 minutes later, it becomes waste of money again. "
For a so-called "marketing company" they sure suck at advertising. The Bing ads are the first decent ones they've produced in over a decade.
comeback ??
Try reality for a moment, it wasn't until Oct '09 that the iPhone passed Windows Mobile Phones, MS is not a major underdog here, and have a lot more money to throw at this than anyone else in the game.
The product could be crap and burn, but seriously debasing it because it is 'too late' [sic] is a bit insane.
Pedantic-- Apple never announced ZFS for OS X. Some people at Sun mentioned that Apple was looking at ZFS, and Disk Utility had an undocumented facility for mounting ZFS drives as read-only, which had the effect of feulling a lot of speculation, but at no time did Apple ever announce that they were going to use or support ZFS.
This is different from the WinFS case, since MS had been putting WinFS in its product literature and presentations up until the Longhorn reboot. Apple fanboy rumors != Apple announcement.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
More specifically, one company has a history of announcing product to prevent their enterprise customers from buying the latest technology from upcoming competitors, and then never delivering it... Or delivering something substandard just as the up-and-coming competition runs out of funding.
That said, there's no reason to believe Windows Mobile 7 won't actually come out. It's just a version bump of an existing product. Also, Apple isn't in danger of running out of funding any time soon.
While official support has been dropped, considering FUSE runs on OS X, it should be possible to get ZFS working through that.
Learn your history. Apple NEVER announced ZFS for OS X.
I sortof agree-- the style is very "loud" in the sense that it's overly personal, and they haven't really demonstrated if you can change it to suit. Of course, if they just used Helvetica (er Arial or whatever) and UI layouts with a less Vogue-magazine-style composition, they probably have something general that would have worked for everyone.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
If Microsoft really did throw out everything and start from scratch, cool. They really needed to start over, (Windows Mobile was a mess) and assuming they didn't replicate the same mistakes, this could be a good thing.
What prevents me from stating this more positively are phrases scattered through TFA and TFA referenced by TFA. (Emphasis mine in the following.)
"Microsoft has done what would have been unthinkable for the company just a few years ago: started from scratch. At least, that's how things look (and feel) with Windows Phone 7 Series."
"You haven't used an interface like this before (well, okay, if you've used a Zune HD then you've kind of used an interface like this)."
"The phone operating system does away with pretty much every scrap [...]"
This could be either journalistic caution (which would be laudable) or prevarication. (IE, the article may report "It sure looks from my 30 seconds with the mock-up at some trade show that Microsoft rewrote the entire OS from the ground up", which gets reported as "Microsoft rewrote the entire OS from the ground up".) When I read this, considering Microsoft's past history of building on top of elderly code whenever possible, I'm thinking this could be anything from a complete rewrite, (least likely) to a general sprucing-up, (more likely) to a new GUI on top of the Windows Mobile 6 base code (most likely). I'm not saying this is the case -- I'd love to be wrong -- I'm saying one can't tell from the articles.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't s u c k is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners.
I heard there was a phone out there (don't know which even if this one at all) that you could actually install windows xp on it, and
have all the usefulness of a mini computer in your hand with an environment you already knew and could network with your home pc without a glitch. This would be so cool, although I am not sure if this phone does the same thing, I find my plam treo 700 limited in terms of windows functionality with its 5.0 mobile environment. I have a hard time trying to use the defacto windows way of thinking from the xp or before and using it to try and do stuff on mobile environment.
I would like to see what the 7 will be like, if closer to a real OS like xp, or just another limited version of the 5.0 OS?
Learn your history. Apple NEVER announced ZFS for OS X.
if so, they sure fooled the media to think they did at the time.. ZDNET: "Apple announces ZFS on Snow Leopard". http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=335&tag=col1;post-584
and even Apples own web site editors where apparently fooled to think so.. from ars technica "Up until Monday's WWDC keynote, the preview page for Snow Leopard Server specifically referred to ZFS support as one of its key features!" (as per story this web site info purged by Apple) http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/apple-dashes-hopes-for-zfs-support-in-snow-leopard.ars
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/LauraFoy/First-Look-Windows-Phone-7-Series-Hands-on-Demo/
(Silverlight warning, at least it does work on Chrome on Mac)
if I recall, microsoft was a bit late to the console game, and although they've been losing money on consoles for nearly ten years now they're still at it and they're a major contender to the point that some would call them the leader. Apple has a significant lead, but microsoft has proven they can lose millions on a product for years and not care so I wouldn't count them out of the phone arena just yet.
and just so you know I'm not biased I sent this from my iPhone.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
According to this article, "Apps would also have to go through a "service based delivery" system such as Windows Marketplace to install, reversing a years-old ability to download apps through the browser or other sources.". If that's true, I don't care how much of an improvement the interface is - I want no part of it.
Among other things, that would require you buy a data plan. As if PDA cellphone's couldn't possibly be useful without one. Sure, sure, you could just buy a dedicated PDA, but those are becoming increasingly difficult to find (certainly Palm doesn't make them anymore) and something does have to be said for device consolidation. I'd rather have a single HTC Touch Pro2 in my pocket than trying to stuff a cellphone, a PDA, a camera and a GPS unit into my pockets.
Further, even if you do have a data plan, requiring all apps be sold through the Windows Marketplace will give Microsoft an unreasonable amount of control. Remember Google Voice for the iPhone? Apple denied Google the right to offer it through their App Store because it competed with their own product lineup. What's to stop Microsoft from doing the same thing?
And what about apps that are no longer maintained? There's an SNES emulator available for Windows Mobile and a TI-89 emulator available for Windows Mobile. Both, near as I can tell, haven't been maintained since Windows Mobile 5 or so. If those apps didn't work in Windows Mobile 7 because the API changed, that's one thing, but it would be unfortunate if the only thing preventing those apps from being installed was the fact that Microsoft wanted more direct control. It's like being rejected for a job interview not because you're skills were insufficient but because you didn't put the right buzzwords on your resume to get past the regex HR was using to filter out resumes. Because you said PHP on your resume instead of PHP5.
But then again, it seems unlikely Microsoft would let anyone offer an SNES emulator or TI-89 emulator through their app store, even if they were to be actively maintaining it, on the basis that it encourages piracy or some such.
A simple example: even adding a font on android requires rooting.
More complex example: voice dialing on Android doesn't work from blluetooth headset. The bug report generated thousand of replies, but google is in no hurry to fix it. Third party developer cannot provide such functionality (and no one will develop complex software that requires unlocking and rooting). WM, on the other hand, had 4 different packages for voice commands, and it was a matter of simple installation to switch from one to another.
Pedantic-- Apple never announced ZFS for OS X
More pedantic: Yes they did. Apple had ZFS touted as a feature for OS X 10.6 until a couple of months before 10.6 shipped... without ZFS. Archive.org doesn't seem to have recent caches of Apple's web page, but the Google cache has this. For those who can't be bothered to click on the link:
For business-critical server deployments, Snow Leopard Server adds read and write support for the high-performance, 128-bit ZFS file system, which includes advanced features such as storage pooling, data redundancy, automatic error correction, dynamic volume expansion, and snapshots.
They did have an entire page explaining why ZFS was great, but I couldn't find it in ten seconds of looking through the Google cache.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I would not call the ipad "delivering what was promised". We were lead to believe for five years we would see a touchscreen tablet from apple, hopefully running some form of OS X. What we got was a giant iPod touch.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
This chart does not show much evidence that Microsoft is learning how to make successful products outside of its traditional franchises: desktop operating systems and desktop office applications.
They've failed at least twice with PDA/pocket type devices, at least once with mobile phones, at least once with portable music players (not quite sure whether PlaysForSure should be counted along with Zune).
Typically we see these stories when Microsoft is behind a competitor, but this time they are behind two: Apple, which has a solid phone success, and Google, which has all the buzz. They are behind these two companies despite having started before either of them, with Windows Mobile circa 2004... which in turn had the benefit of five major revisions of Windows CE, started in 1996 or something like that.
If Microsoft actually knew how to make a good telephone, they would have made one already.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Yeah, it is interesting that in some ways, the biggest complaint many have about Windows Mobile is the same complaint some people throw at Linux - they complain about having too much choice! (KDE vs. GNOME vs. whatever in Linux, the various dialers/reskins/alternate UIs available for WM.)
What is a weakness in the eyes of some (flexibility and choice) is a strength for others. A WM phone doesn't provide the "out of the box" user experience that iPhone does, but it is far more powerful and flexible.
It's what Linux on mobile devices SHOULD be, but as I mentioned before (and you confirmed affects even Android), Linux on mobile phones has a bad habit of getting tivoized. There are exceptions (OpenMoko and the like) but they're smallfry.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
No flash and no multi-tasking. So... why should I buy this and not an Apple instead?
I knew when I started reading the thread that MS would screw it up. They always do, 7 versions (and really more since .5 are also major releases) and they still don't get it.
Nobody is going to buy MS because it looks cool, they can forget that market, cool people don't do windows. The only hope MS has is to be as PC like as they can. It works, not great or smooth but more or less as you expect so that you can use it as your are used to using windows, with all its faults.
There is a large enough market for Windows users, but for some reason, MS has got to screw it up. No flash, on windows... oh yeah, that is smart. MS, you are NOT Apple, they can get away with it, you can't. People, this is another Zune.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I miss the zune-phone tag FTW!
On your linked page: "All features are subject to change." So I guess no one can win this.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
I see they are focusing on games, multimedia address book, web browsing and social networking. But a phone? well....maybe. It looks like an atomic powered Zune with a phone bolted on as an afterthought.
Zune Pass over the air streaming.
Well played Microsoft. Well played.
I went from a really old Nokia Communicator to an e71 a while back.
Maps load quickly, the GPS lock is quick too. I move around the map with the keys with no drawing issues at all.
One of the issues I have with touchscreen phones is the lack of tactile buttons. I can use real buttons faster with less error.
I still don't understand the collective disregard for Nokia's products in the States. I doubly don't understand why Nokia passively markets their phones in the States.
It's good product and a more open platform. Nokia has been good about moving towards Free software too. That should be enough for the slashdot GPL hippies to get on board.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
You must not come here often. Vista has an actual SP2 now. Maybe you meant to say SP3?
I'll put my two cents in:
1: Windows Mobile is decently secure. It has a good way of encrypting data on memory cards, and has a fairly robust remote wipe mechanism either via Exchange or the MyPhone feature. This is especially nice because one doesn't need a third party add-on like BES to manage this functionality in Exchange 2007 or 2010. I'd love to see more security features that Blackberries have (hard erase if not on the network in x days, hard erase if a SIM card is changed, etc.)
2: Windows Mobile can run all kinds of apps, and the development tools for those using the .NET Compact Framework are pretty good.
3: Microsoft has a decent codesigning system for security in WM. Additionally, companies can require all apps be signed by their own key, either by OTA provisioning, or provisioning before the phone leaves the HQ.
4: Unless locked down by provisioning or an operator, one does not need to root or jailbreak a Windows Mobile phone for full access to it. Tethering is very easy to do.
5: (and this can be good or bad) Apps have a lot of room to do what they need to. This is why a lot of niche market programs for Windows Mobile.
Windows Mobile biggest downside until 7: The UI. This isn't MS's fault, because it was developed in the age of PDAs where the main interface tool was a stylus. However, with the sea change to fingers and multitouch as the primary means of input on a touchscreen, Microsoft was left with having to redesign a UI that not just the OS, but thousands of apps. Other phone operating systems did not have a legacy installed base to worry about, while MS has to be concerned about this, which also hamstrung 7.0's development.
A couple of things: 1) your description of how you want the browser to behave while you're doing other things with the phone... that's exactly how Mobile Safari works. Read the web a while, then make/receive a call, read your e-mail, whatever, then go back to the browser - it's right where you left it. 2) Playing music while doing other things - works. The iPod application (and other Apple-provided apps) have multi-tasking enabled, so music keeps playing while you're doing other stuff. Similarly, e-mail and SMS messages keep coming in, incoming calls ring the phone... no matter what else you're doing with the device.
I used to be pretty up-in-arms about the multi-tasking thing too - but what I found was that in practice, I don't miss it much.
Funny enough, iPhone OSX is a form of OSX and it is running on a touchscreen tablet. Apple never promised even that much. The tablet was all rumors.
Well, except that file systems aren't products, but merely features of a product.
...that is going to work properly...
That's where I stopped reading. I just spent two days fixing panicked friends PCs after they installed Tuesday's updates and their systems wouldn't boot. Granted they were rooted... but the OS I run, I can click, surf - whatever and never be, how do they say it, pwned.
I don't want a phone that for the sake of walking on to a subway station platform is hacked by the kid standing next to me.
-[d]-
Actually despite the "love" for Microsoft here, their biggest problem is marketing more than anything. I personally have seen far fewer technology issues or gui issues over the last year or two than ever before. A lot of that has to do with the threat of Apple on the desktop and Linux on the server. However for what ever reason they have not fixed their other achilles heel, marketing.
It is one are they have never been good at and they have not realized that it, more than anything has hurt them.
Apple on the other hand is great at marketing and even better at targeting the MS customers base. Google has their own unique way of marketing, because they own the online search and understand how to get the word out with out commercials. Microsoft? they get more mention on the Apple vs Microsoft commercials than their own.
actually, nobody even cares about microsoft phones.
Really? Don't tell the 2.1 million users are xda-developers.com or the users at other large community sites like PPCGeeks, ROMeOS, Modaco,
PocketPCFAQ, pdastreet, intomobile, hpc, PocketPCAddict, PocketPCBlast, brighthand, etc....
The best they have done is trying to make a phone look exactly like an android phone which shows how crappy winmo is.
LOL!
The UI (Manila/TouchFlo/Sense) on the HD2 that you linked to has been running on Windows Mobile phones by HTC for years now - LONG before Android even existed. HTC actually made their Android phones to look like their Windows Mobile phones.
Thanks for the laugh.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
There's several ways to disable that
I use #3, as I don't see a need for any of the special effects, but don't mind the general appearance of the Windows 7 theme. Disabling dwm also seems to free up some memory.
I haven't tested #1 or #2, but assume they work.
CPU & RAM
N95: 332 MHz 90 Mb
iphone: 600MHz 256Mb
The iphone didn't even have GPS originally, never mind a mapping application. The N95 is 3 years old. You might want to compare against something current instead, like the N97 or N900, once they get Maps 3 ported to Linux. Though I suspect the battery life on that will suck almost as badly as the iphone's.
Nokia Maps has also gone from rev 1.0 (on the N95) to rev 3.0 in the last 3 years.
Jeez.
Deleted
I test WinMo phones with our client software extensively, on multiple platforms, and it is by far the most unstable. Basically, it's BB > iPhone > Symbian > WinMo 6 in terms of platform stability. If Redmond can deliver the same improvement in this that they did with Win 7 desktop, they have a chance. Possibly. Unlike in desktop, where they had an effective monopoly, the handset marketplace is very competitive. If they screw this up, they'll be baked for good.
Those people are just waiting to be screwed, as MS always does to its partners whenever it suits it.
If MS had its way, we would be using underpowered and overpriced HP phones with some flavour of WinMo, with an unhealthy lock of the market via some business-friendly winmo-only features of the phones. They had the iPAQ pocket PCs market, and it was just a matter of adding a dialler to the device. But the mobile telephony providers know how sneaky MS is, and refused to put all their eggs in a MS basket.
No other company is so effective leveraging a monopoly and making impossible to ever come off it as MS, and so effective to destroy partners in order to increase marketshare, and that's why people like me advice all the people we know to avoid MS smartphones. We don't want another Windows-desktop-like monopoly, no matter how good or bad their actual devices are.
I'm sure I'm not alone. Right now only Android and Maemo are the appropriate alternatives. And even then I'm not sure about Google 'don't be evil' motto.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
MS internal struggles are saving the rest of the software industry. I hope your company keeps having them.
We do not want other MS monopolies, thank you very much.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
Let's try this again. What came out first, the HTC Hero or the HTC HD2?
Which came out first is irrelevant. The UI on HTC's Android phones is called HTC Sense, and it is not part of the Android OS .It's written by HTC and is based on TouchFlO, the UI that has existed on HTC's Windows mobile phones for years now. The Hero and HD2 have the same version of HTC Sense and it just happened that HTC released the hero before the HD2. Here, educate yourself.
Maybe you should think again, since you don't understand anything
You haven't pointed out anything I don't understand. I know full well that xda-devs is about HTC devices. Until HTC released it's first Android device it was 100% about Windows Mobile. I never said the sites I linked to were 100% dedicated to Windows Mobile, nor do I care if they are.
Thanks for reminding me that apparently you love windows mobile. That's about the most embarrassing piece of software I've ever heard anyone being associated with.
Your hatred of Microsoft is amusing. While morons like you mentally masturbate over the supposed demise of companies for no logical reason, people like me use products that work for us. I actually like the Android OS. It's a bit unstable on my wife's Cliq, but I'm sure those bugs will be worked out by Google and they'll catch up to other mobile platforms. My next phone decision will be between Windows Mobile (or "Windows Phone" or whatever they'll be calling it by then) and Android.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Really? Who led you to believe that?
Couldn't have been the many pundits who make their living from your viewing ads on their websites, could it? You know, those ones who use you as a resource to sell advertising against.
Those people are just waiting to be screwed, as MS always does to its partners whenever it suits it.
Who are "those people"? The people at xda-devs and alike? That site started in 2003. They've been waiting a long time to get screwed. Do you have any insight on when the screwing might happen?
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Microsoft's first OS for smartphones (Pocket PC 2002) was release in October 2001, that's over 5 years before Apple and a full 7 years before Google's foray into the mobile platform. You can say a lot, mostly bad, about it, but MS has been at this longer than those two companies put together.
You'd have thought in that time that they might actually have made some progress. As part of work, I was given a Windows Mobile 18 months ago - first a WM 6.0 which was subsequently upgraded to 6.1 and finally 6.5. Almost every review I saw of the two upgrades to WM that I've used have said "it's less crap than the old version" - which I might add, has been exactly my experience. Whilst they don't tend to bluescreen, they do run slow, are unresponsive, Exchange mail randomly stops updating until I do a send/receive - just to name a few of the irritations I have with the phone. I've seen Android in action - work has started to switch to Android phones - and there's no comparison.
This is seriously more astro-turfing than I have ever seen you do for any of your other products. Good going Marketing Dept.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
I thought the vapor *was* Vista. Didn't they promise an amazing new OS with tons of new features, awesome usability, and the end of windows XP?
I've heard other people echo your point. My experience on the Moto Q (the original) was that the phone was absolutely worthless. I don't know if it was WinMo 5, Motorola, or the combination of the two, but it was by a long shot the worst cell phone experience I've ever had. I've spoken with other Q users who had similar experiences. This might not be the fault of MS, but Apple, controlling their hardware and the interaction between the hardware and OS may have generated a better product than MS because of that control. I'm currently using a Palm Pre, which has some issues, but drastically fewer than what I experienced on the Q. If one company has total responsibility for the customer experience, they probably have more ability and initiative to improve the user experience through the entire product pipeline. Nokia, Palm, Apple, and possibly Google (Nexus One) have this advantage.
Other phone operating systems did not have a legacy installed base to worry about, while MS has to be concerned about this, which also hamstrung 7.0's development.
Yet from what I've heard, WinPho7 won't run WinMo6 apps. That kinda kills the legacy argument. I think they *do* have a legacy to consider, though: the users. Changing the UI like they did, killing binary compatiblity and some other stuff, that takes balls.
WinPho7 is the first Microsoft announcement - it's not a product until it hits the shelves - that has me interested. Ever.
/var/run/twitter.sock is a twitter socket puppet.
People switch phones when their contract expires. That's often every 2 years. It's almost a whole new race every 2 years. If you miss one go just wait for the next one.
Microsoft has always pushed a direct relationship between manufacturers and Operaters and continue to do so with the Windows Phone Series. Unfortunately this is detrimental to pretty much everyone. The usual value chain in the mobile phone industry is that an ODM manufactures the handset and does software integration. An OEM picks up the handset and adds branding, logistics, operator approval, distribution partners and possibly some novel software. The OEM then sells to retail or operators. They also take the monatary risk on forward ordering from the ODM and smooth out peaks and troughs in the device supply to simplify things for the ODM. With a unified UI and hardware specs what incentive is there for the OEM?
When you don't have an OEM in the middle then device approvals take much longer, and bugs slip through. HTC's Nexus One should never have gone to market in such a poor state. 3G is still not working properly. An OEM in the loop would have tested the device on AT&T and T-Mobile before launch. Google don't have the necessary experience to do that, HTC still don't (although after killing off their OEM partners two years ago they SHOULD have by now.
What worries me most is that Microsoft is closing the door on the whole OEM model. This means Operators become more wary of new phones, the money isn't forward loaded into the ODM from distributors to develop the phones in the first place. Who will be paying the NRE on a new handset? Microsoft, the operators, or the ODM? Without any incentive for the OEM to produce a differntated product the whole cycle will fail.
knowing microsoft... you probably nailed it exactly
The OS looks compelling enough, and I have no doubt there will be quality handsets on the market - HTC can easily make those.
It's really all about how slick the pipe is between the developers and consumers now. MS hasn't announced an SDK yet, but I'll bet it'll be .NET based and be pretty workable for developers. If developers build the apps, the consumers will come.
I had major problems with WinMo 6.0, but 6.1 and 6.5 have been very stable for me. As for Android, you may have seen them in Action but have you actually used one? My wife has a Motorola Cliq and it's been extremely unstable - requiring her to take the battery out multiple times per day. According to user forums, her issues are not unique. Maybe it's not an Android problem and the fault of Motorola.
If were to rate all of the smartphone OSs I've used by stabilty I would rate them as follows:
1) Windows Mobile 6.1/6.5 (HTC Herald/HTC Rhodium) ..
..
..
..
..
2) Blackberry OS (Pearl)
3) Google Android, "Cupcake" (Motorola Cliq)
4) Windows Mobile 6.0 (HTC Herald - same phone as above)
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Another thing to note... until very recently (Windows Mobile 6, I'd say), Microsoft has not been focusing their smartphone tech towards common users. The main suite of functionality has been: MAPI connectivity/email, productivity (mini-office) contacts, email and navigation. Including navigation, Windows Mobile devices (and all prior WinCE based devices) have been far beyond the capabilities of anything else: there just hasn't been competition. There still isn't.
When they rolled the Zune team into the WinMo team, things changed with a more "user centric" device. That's really when they started pushing for the same market. While Apple did start the 'inexpensive smart phone', Microsoft has been doing smartphones (through proxies) for much longer. Instead of $350 or so, they cost over 3 times as much, granted - but things have changed a lot, and what is now possible at the $350-500 price point is different than it was almost a decade ago.
The foundation of WinCE is actually not that bad for such a device. It's a fairly stable OS at this point: it has "true" multitasking, for one thing. Battery life on a WinCE device kicks the crap out of Android and iPhone (possibly due to the MIPS heritage, but I couldn't say for sure).
I'm a Linux geek, and frankly, I don't see much exciting in Android. The tools are limited compared to what's available on Windows Mobile or the iPhone. Likewise, the iPhone lacks a lot of what Windows Mobile has. Except for the "Microsoft makes it" and the Activesync skeleton in the closet, I can't think of a single reason to prefer an iPhone or Android over modern Windows Mobile phone. I'd love to be able to have a Touch Pro 2 (carrier support).
Hell, if you know what you're doing, you can roll and upgrade your own WinMo phone without -too- much of a headache. Most of them don't seem to require extensive "jailbreaking". Even the Verizon Touch Pro 2 is trivial to gain full access to.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Actually, I have no idea.
They may been screwed right now, like when MS marketed MFC but never used it themselves.
It is only that, if there are alternatives, like Android, I know what I will NOT use.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
These are a handful of examples I've run into recently with my wife's iPhone, none of which were a problem on my WM and Android phones. I'm sure there's many others.
It's selection bias - you probably can't think of any examples requiring multitasking because you've never been allowed to try. The few examples mentioned by the OP had to be specifically catered for by Apple, case-by-case. For those of us that have become used to any old app having these capabilities if they want them, a non-multitasking phone is really limiting.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
It's what Linux on mobile devices SHOULD be, but as I mentioned before (and you confirmed affects even Android), Linux on mobile phones has a bad habit of getting tivoized. There are exceptions (OpenMoko and the like) but they're smallfry.
What about Maemo (the OS of the N900)? I would hardly call it a smallfry.
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
I'm still using the first generation Samsung Blackjack, running WinMo 5, with a similar form factor to the Q and it works great. I've also met many other satisfied BJ users who only upgraded because they could cheaply after years of using the phones. I'd bet on Motorola...
Twitter.com/TrentonHyatt
You just have to look at they're history or COFEE, would you really trust M$ to deliver anything respectful? I have uploaded the user document here http://www.constructiontalking.com/COFEE.pdf take a look at the user guide now will you ever trust M$ with a phone. I even have an official copy of COFEE legally. Is it trustworthy NO! Encase is better and any decent system admin knows how to recover data without spyware installed on a windows system, Linux, BSD, MAC OS X, SPARC, Solaris. Just do not buy this phone. Or maybe you would like to. But you have been warned.
All cows eat grass!
If you want to know why I don't like Microsoft, go look up the comes antitrust exhibits and/or plenty of the things MS has done in the past. We can go as far back as Dr. Dos, or as recent as Trusted Computing/WMA/DRM/OOXML Fiacso/office patent fiasco/Windows Live Gaming/Xbox Live service shutdown. Really, do I need to name more? They are also the reason people don't even understand the phrase open source (and don't even consider the phrase free software) and why android isn't really true open source, although it's significantly better than the alternatives thus far. I don't need to just be a ms hater. It comes from reading a lot of groklaw and actually putting effort into being educated in understanding computers as a good slashie.
As far as Flo, I didn't know enough about it, so thank you for explaining and sorry for going on a tangent.
The Maemo-based N series are, so far, niche devices, partly due to the fact that they are extremely expensive - $650 in the USA with no contract subsidies available. Remember, you don't get a service discount if you use a non-subsidized phone, so why go for a non-subsidized phone? For the same reason, the OpenMoko was a niche device.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I've always enjoyed coding with MS build chains. Coding the XBOX360 is so straight forward as is making Win32 apps that use D3D. Same with the Windows Mobile devices. It's a breeze to write and debug apps with Visual Studio. However, hardware support is another story. They introduced Direct3D Mobile in Windows Mobile 5 but because WinMo up to now has been something of a wild west, some devices had D3D drivers while others didn't. And the ones that did weren't the best. Very few did OpenGL ES. You could however, quite easily get access to the linear frame buffer and just write your own rasterizers which worked quite well! I've talked with some WinMobile insiders and they told me that WinMo 7 would be way stricter when it came to hardware and device variance. OpenGL ES would be the norm and would replace Direct3D Mobile. If they can sort the hardware issues and force manufactures (HTC you listening, you ass clowns) to implement quality drivers, they could very much regain from 4th spot where they are now!
Microsoft did just what Palm did.. they added phone APIs to an existing PDA OS. Doesn't matter how long you've been at it... it matters how well you do it.
-Dave Haynie