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Valve's Battle Against Cheaters

wjousts writes "IEEE Spectrum takes a look behind the scenes at Valve's on-going efforts to battle cheaters in online games: 'Cheating is a superserious threat,' says [Steam's lead engineer, John] Cook. 'Cheating is more of a serious threat than piracy.' The company combats this with its own Valve Anti-Cheat System, which a user consents to install in the Steam subscriber agreement. Cook says the software gets around anti-virus programs by handling all the operations that require administrator access to the user's machine. So, how important is preventing cheating? How much privacy are you willing to sacrifice in the interests of a level playing field? 'Valve also looks for changes within the player's computer processor's memory, which might indicate that cheat code is running.'"

336 comments

  1. VAC is a joke by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Team Fortress is overrun with cheaters and Valve seems completely unable to do anything about it.

    --
    Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    1. Re:VAC is a joke by Lordrashmi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Atleast in TF2 if you are on a good server people are easily banned by unique ID.

      My clan has been playing Modern Warfare 2 recently and if you find a cheater the only thing you can do is back out of the match.

    2. Re:VAC is a joke by toastar · · Score: 1

      Atleast in TF2 if you are on a good server people are easily banned by unique ID.

      My clan has been playing Modern Warfare 2 recently and if you find a cheater the only thing you can do is back out of the match.

      I concur.

    3. Re:VAC is a joke by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been playing TF2 almost every week since shortly after release; I've never run across someone using an autoaim or wallhack. What server are you seeing this problem on?

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    4. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      Agreed. Just like in a denial of service attack, it's all about ratios. People developing cheats =1,000, people developing anticheats =50. How can they ever win? Rather then create a proprietary anticheat that's constantly circumvented, they need to give useful tools to server administrators and community modders/developers.

      I run several popular Valve-game based servers, and we've had much more success dealing with cheaters through various server plugins, administration techniques then from VAC. What Vavle is really trying to do with crying about cheaters is create another excuse (along with piracy) to completely abandon the PC platform altogether and just make console games, like everyone else is slowly doing.

    5. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I've been playing TF2 almost every week since shortly after release; I've never run across someone using an autoaim or wallhack. What server are you seeing this problem on?

      Maybe you have and just haven't noticed it... Most of those cheating on TF2 are subtle so that they won't get caught... Remember that getting caught through VAC means you don't get on any server again...

    6. Re:VAC is a joke by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      I thought they only blocked you from getting onto VAC servers but let you play on unsecured ones.

    7. Re:VAC is a joke by tmkn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think cheating is only a problem when there is actual competition going on. Public servers in any FPS-game are so random anyway, that only a blatant aimbotter can affect the game negatively. Luckily, these guys are easy to spot and ban by the server admins.

      VAC does its job brilliantly. It's a system designed to ban players that can be confirmed to be running a cheating software. It's designed to give no false positives, and so far the Valve's record is clear on that.

      I play Team Fortress 2 competitively, and we have our own leagues from which we can ban players according to their Steam IDs. Every league has its own Anti-Cheat admins, who examine the recorded replays of official matches. There is only one player caught cheating in TF2 that has played on the highest level. He also attended LANs where you can't play with your own computer without a noticeable change in his skill level. So you can't really say that he profited that much.

      It's just so hard to cheat and stay on top of the competition and not get caught that most people just won't bother. I wouldn't say cheating is a major problem, at least in the TF2 scene.

    8. Re:VAC is a joke by Verunks · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Atleast in TF2 if you are on a good server people are easily banned by unique ID.

      My clan has been playing Modern Warfare 2 recently and if you find a cheater the only thing you can do is back out of the match.

      indeed, playing mw2 is a PITA, you can only hope that the cheater is in your squad, and VAC is doing nothing at all, maybe they'll get banned a month later but your game is already ruined, punkbuster may not be perfect but at least it kicks right away

    9. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is why we wanted dedicated servers, so we can run then, administer them, and get rid of the cheats who ruin it for everyone else!

      What can expect when server aren't administered regularly other than a hack-fest?

    10. Re:VAC is a joke by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      This is why I haven't bought MW2 and never will. Yes, I purchased MW and used to play it online.

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    11. Re:VAC is a joke by PPNSteve · · Score: 1

      LOL Modern Warfail 2. Infinity ward should have stuck with Punk Buster.

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      PPN
    12. Re:VAC is a joke by Ziekheid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A Modern Warfare 2 clan? Clans and matchmaking?
      So what do you have to do to actually have a war? Add every member of the opposing clan to your friends list and play? Worthless game when it comes to having a competitive community. insert(no_dedicated_servers_whine);
      On Topic: The fact that valve thinks anti-cheat is more important than anti-piracy means a lot to me. Compared to the absurd DRM protection Assasins Creed 2 (and other future titles from Ubisoft) has for example which requires you to have an active internet connection to play a single player game valve is a company that actually gets it.
      I must admit though that PunkBuster has a lot more tools available for the admins AND the server users (like pb_power and pb_kick by users) and the ability for plugins to be added for streaming bans globally and implementing your own anti-cheat variables (CVAR checks).
      There is little to no information available on how Valve's anti-cheat operates and I for one have no idea if it actually GETS cheaters for I never see any public messages of users being kicked (this might differ per game though).

    13. Re:VAC is a joke by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

      I strongly suggest you find a decent couple of servers with active admins. A good admin will be able to spot and deal with cheaters quickly. VAC, by it's very nature (delayed bans), doesn't stop some idiot kid who just downloaded an aimbot that day.

      --
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    14. Re:VAC is a joke by sopssa · · Score: 0

      Valve has explicitly stated they don't allow reports of cheaters. And how could they, since they have no actual data of their own on it? Proof like screenshot is easy to fake and unreserved VAC ban to someone with tons of games in their Steam account is going to hurt.

    15. Re:VAC is a joke by sopssa · · Score: 0, Troll

      What Vavle is really trying to do with crying about cheaters is create another excuse (along with piracy) to completely abandon the PC platform altogether and just make console games, like everyone else is slowly doing.

      Oh that must be it! It makes perfect sense to abandon the largest online games distribution platform on the planet that's literally making them billions!

    16. Re:VAC is a joke by ferrocene · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I, as well, have been playing TF2 almost weekly since its release. I have seen cheaters a few times. It's pretty obvious, esp. when a sniper has 300 headshots in a row and is on top of the board.

      Hell, one of the cheaters was even spamming the URL to a website where you can BUY the cheat, so he was demo'ing his warez, if you will.

      The best part was when everyone dropped to spectator and spec'ed him while he was playing. It was fascinating to watch the aimbot at work. After 30 seconds of watching his screen from the scope perspective, anyone's doubts were quickly erased.

      --
      Most folk'll never lose a toe, and then again some folk'll...
    17. Re:VAC is a joke by ferrocene · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention that this was on several well-known and large servers, but I can't recall the names off-hand. It did stop after Valve released a patch to the game.

      --
      Most folk'll never lose a toe, and then again some folk'll...
    18. Re:VAC is a joke by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      I see messages of people being kicked from TF2 with no steam id all the time...

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    19. Re:VAC is a joke by YojimboJango · · Score: 1

      I've got over 600 hours of time logged playing TF2. I've seen two cheaters in that whole time. Both times they didn't last more than a few minutes (server admin banned him).

      The only place TF2 is overrun with cheaters is on the non-VAC secure servers. Chances are if you're playing there then you've already been caught cheating.

    20. Re:VAC is a joke by 0232793 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Its easy to fool admins into banning someone else - just put a speical invisible character like unicode 0002 at the end of someone else's name. I've done it lots of times. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose. For some games / cheats there are ways to randomly change your name often making it hard to track who the cheater is.

    21. Re:VAC is a joke by 0232793 · · Score: 1

      I cheat on TF2 but except playing with another cheater on my friends list, i can count on two hands the number of obvious cheaters i've seen. As for the ones that try and hide it, well idk. Recently a lot of cheat sites got hit by valve, but some tf2 cheats remain undetected - enhancedaim.com for one. So you should be seeing less.

    22. Re:VAC is a joke by Nathrael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Punkbuster isn't all that better (I personally hate it, as it's horribly intrusive) and still by no means a substitute for a good server admin.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    23. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The group of servers I play on actually has a chat command you can use to contact the admin in emergencies. Last time I saw a speedhacker someone did just that. Speedhacked wasn't doing his thing for more than 10 minutes before admin showed up and permabanned his ass.

    24. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but how do you ban cafe accounts, they get as many steam ids as they want.

    25. Re:VAC is a joke by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You cannot keep cheating from happening unless you control the server (and even then it's not trivial). End of story.

      I (and so many, many others) foretold that before MW2 came out and that cheating will ruin that game within days, possibly weeks, of release. Unlike others, I stood with my decision to avoid buying it, simply because yes, it would have been a killer game that I really wanted, but I also knew that playing it will be an ongoing frustration with cheaters running rampart.

      Why bother buying a game, even if it was the best game on the planet, if you can't play it sensibly?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:VAC is a joke by phoenix321 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The police doesn't stop you from holding up a liquor store right now. The high-resolution 30fps CCTV system there won't stop you either. (A shotgun would, but that's a story for another thread.)

      But with clear pictures of your face robbing a liquor store, you will have a police record. Do it a second time and you're on the wanted list. Do it a third time and they hunt you down IRL and no Pay-and-Spray will help you.

      Security everywhere is hard to maintain, so it is sufficient to make sure that crime doesn't pay. Crimes that don't pay are not done.

      In this sense, VAC could very well eradicate the cheaters altogether, if only with a lag of one month. Kids that download an aimbot that day will annoy the hell out of everyone else for a month and then they're gone permanently. People (=potential cheaters) will notice that and probably think thrice before downloading an aimbot themselves. People who still cheat then must be kiddies or junkies with no IQ, no idea of delayed gratification, no impulse control and not the faintest idea of self-discipline ("idjits") or actively gaining pleasure for hurting or impairing others ("griefers" = sadists). They can be banned all day long. Or slowly roasted on open pits, for all I care.

      I could endure cheaters for a while if I knew they were never coming back, ever. If they have to buy a new copy of the game every time they get detected adds a good incentive for the game publisher to detect them with increasing accuracy and frequency. This means cheaters practically pay for their own detection and I like it that way.

    27. Re:VAC is a joke by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone do something like that if he wasn't prepared to face cheaters?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    28. Re:VAC is a joke by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      Legit users generally wouldn't go onto non-VAC servers, but if one did cheat on VAC and got banned, they can at least play against other cheaters rather than be locked out of the game completely.

    29. Re:VAC is a joke by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      I think I saw a cheater in TF2 once.

      But largely my experience has been cheat-free. Play on VAC servers and you should have a similar experience I would think.

    30. Re:VAC is a joke by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      When their crosshair "locks on" to the closest enemy in view all the time with perfect accuracy... yeah.

    31. Re:VAC is a joke by brain159 · · Score: 1

      You ultimately run the risk of Valve shitcanning your entire Steam account. If you can't sign in to Steam, you can't play online - and even if you worked around that somehow, you couldn't get updates.

    32. Re:VAC is a joke by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think that you are severely underestimating the number of 'kiddies or junkies with no IQ, no idea of delayed gratification, no impulse control and not the faintest idea of self-discipline ("idjits") or actively gaining pleasure for hurting or impairing others ("griefers" = sadists).' If we banned them all, we'd have like 2 servers left, full of people who are actually good at the game. I'd have no one to shoot.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    33. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it was a BOT that was playing and advertising the cheat...Its very common in CS atleast..

    34. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because they are better than you does not mean they are cheating...

    35. Re:VAC is a joke by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      I resent the notion of 90% of all players being scumbags and bottom feeders.

      But if scumbags play the game without cheats like everyone else, I have nothing to object and they're no scumbags.

      If you are able to shoot them easily, they're not cheating and that's fine.

    36. Re:VAC is a joke by sopssa · · Score: 1

      If they blocked access to all games in the account (including single player games) for cheating in multiplayer servers they could get quite legal troubles for it. It's far safer for them to just block access to VAC servers.

    37. Re:VAC is a joke by Draek · · Score: 1

      I've seen more cheaters in CoD4 than in TF2, in spite of the former using Punkbuster instead of VAC. Perhaps its just the fact that no anti-cheat engine will ever be perfect and so we'll always have to deal with the idiots.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    38. Re:VAC is a joke by gparent · · Score: 1

      A Modern Warfare 2 clan? Clans and matchmaking? So what do you have to do to actually have a war? Add every member of the opposing clan to your friends list and play?

      Yes, that's exactly what you do. You form a private match and invite people to it, they select their team and you play without any other players in your way. Is it really that hard to understand?

    39. Re:VAC is a joke by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      Then they should have been so kind as to allow people to set up dedicated servers.

      --
      SSC
    40. Re:VAC is a joke by Thrymm · · Score: 1

      it isn't efficient.

    41. Re:VAC is a joke by metamatic · · Score: 1

      You're lucky if you're playing the PC version. On consoles, Valve and EA aren't even trying to stop the cheaters. They haven't even bothered to fix any of the map glitches that get exploited.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    42. Re:VAC is a joke by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      You cannot keep cheating from happening unless you control the server (and even then it's not trivial).

      But half the time people start just banning better players. Our clan are running into serious problems because we are the best clan on our map and other clans hate losing. The result, they ban us from their server. We play AA2 CSAR at are the top clan on battle tracker but still certain clans look for any excuse to ban us from their server.

      Hopefully the Valve system will mature into something where we can stop cheaters and still let us people who put years of practice in get a game owning noobs.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    43. Re:VAC is a joke by gparent · · Score: 1

      Sure, you might lose a whole *minute*. *gasp*

    44. Re:VAC is a joke by zerocool6900 · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with this statement either. I have a list of probably 100 or so friends on Steam that all play MW2 and none of them are cheaters...hell thats what 3 servers right there.

      --
      Some people never learn...no matter how many times something happens to them.
    45. Re:VAC is a joke by Tony+Stark · · Score: 1

      Because if that was the case I'd be the only one not cheating.

    46. Re:VAC is a joke by smartr · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it matters a bit less in fps's, but when it comes to rpg's and rts's, cheating really makes for an unpleasant gameplay experience. I remember that late in the life of Diablo (1) cheating was pretty much inescapable on battle.net...

    47. Re:VAC is a joke by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I don't believe my post explicitly referred to cheaters at all.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    48. Re:VAC is a joke by dave562 · · Score: 1

      Cheating is what finally moved me onto the console. I've been playing FPS games either on a LAN or across the internet since Quake. I have never once loaded up an aimbot, wallhack or anything of the sort. I was competitive against the best of the best in Quake3 and frequently owned cheater filled CounterStrike servers back in the days of CS 1.3 and 1.4.

      When MW2 was coming out I was faced with the choice of coughing up the cash to upgrade my PC, or spending that same money on a console. I was really hesitant to give up the familiar (and IMHO superior) keyboard and mouse interface for a controller. I caved and bought a PS3. It took about a month to get used to the controls. I'm no where nearly as good as I would be with a keyboard and mouse. I rarely get top score. Despite all of that, I'm happy because I don't have to deal with cheaters (yet).

      I think that the Valve rep quoted in the article is right on target with his comment about how serious of a problem cheating is. It's to the point where you either join them, or you can't even play the game. FPS games simply aren't any fun when the second you break from cover, you get dropped by a head shot from some guy you can't even see. I have to imagine that MW2 is probably as bad as the old CS was. So much of the terrain in MW2 doesn't stop bullets so there are very few places that a aimbot and wallhack won't get you. I stopped playing CS and started playing Americas Army because even though there were still some cheaters, at least the walls were solid and you had to be out in the open to get shot.

    49. Re:VAC is a joke by dave562 · · Score: 1

      Like I said in another post, I bought a PS3 to play the game (and GTA, and Metal Gear, and a few other titles). Cheaters have killed PC based FPS gaming.

    50. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One time, an opponent came running straight towards me and I shot him. He kept coming straight at me. I shot him 2 more times and dropped him. He then began to rant that I was cheating.
      I've seen a lot more false accusations of cheating than actual cheaters.

    51. Re:VAC is a joke by MokuMokuRyoushi · · Score: 0

      He said kiddies or junkies with no IQ, no idea of delayed gratification, no impulse control and not the faintest idea of self-discipline ("idjits") or actively gaining pleasure for hurting or impairing others ("griefers" = sadists).'. Cheaters were not mentioned.

      --
      Humans are terrible replicators of Godly things.
    52. Re:VAC is a joke by mrdoogee · · Score: 2, Informative

      TF2 uses dedicated servers and allows server side mods. Therefore, votebans and votekicks are simple to use and many times don't even need an admin online to work properly.

      MF2 however doesn't use dedicated servers, any one player is actually hosting the "server" on their machine. The problem (well, A problem) with that is that there is no Server admin or other person in control of the back end of the game, so if the automated systems don't pick up the cheats, the players have no recourse to expel the cheater(s).

    53. Re:VAC is a joke by PPNSteve · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

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      PPN
    54. Re:VAC is a joke by mrdoogee · · Score: 1

      Sure the time wasted is fairly inconsequential, but you must agree that the dedicated server model does make the whole clan based system easier.

    55. Re:VAC is a joke by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      VACs answer to banning people is purely based on stats, there is no checking of memory resident cheats at all.

      I don't know whether VAC checks for memory-resident cheats, but I'm quite certain it doesn't base anything on stats, at least not in Counter-strike: Source. I know guys that regularly have k:d ratios of 30:0 or better.

      Basing any sort of anti-cheat on stats would be a terrible idea. For example, basing bans on stats alone could get you banned merely for playing on a server with bots that don't shoot back (for training).

      Or for a more realistic example: my k:d ratio is usually a crappy 3:4 or so, but every once in a while I'll randomly go a round or two at 20:1, and when that happens I usually quit while I'm ahead. Should VAC conclude that this abnormal spike in my score is the result of some hack?

      No, I think it's quite clear that VAC does not operate based on stats.

    56. Re:VAC is a joke by mdm-adph · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing the analogy. Even with through millions of people into jail in real life (i.e., "banning" them), the streets are still filled with people.

      --
      It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
    57. Re:VAC is a joke by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      You always see douchey kids playing with names with lots of messed up characters...but this only makes it hard for bad admins

      Where I play, they will just ban your steamID and that will be the end of it...no need to attempt to type some god-awful name. Also, most admin mods have a menu based interface that eliminates having to type invisible/nonstandard characters.

      --
      Bottles.
    58. Re:VAC is a joke by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      It is unpleasent, but it is often easy to detect and easy to ban in a game like TF2.

      Battle.net does not give you the option to kick somebody from your server...and blizzard was not very hard on diablo 1 cheaters (they were a little better with D2...and cheating beyond maphack was harder). Valve is very hard on cheaters, and certainly where I play TF2, there is almost always an admin in game and if not, there are several signed into steam who are willing to believe me when I tell them a player is abusive (we have pretty strict rules as some of the admins are old enough to have kids who play) or cheating.

      --
      Bottles.
    59. Re:VAC is a joke by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing the analogy. He basically argued that all cheaters are defined by that long list of things I quoted. I turned that into a joke, suggesting that that long list of things would apply to the vast majority of people in online games, not just cheaters. Were those people removed, the only ones left would be the people who were actually good, and thus I'd be screwed.

      So, by your analogy, it'd be like throwing everyone in jail, except for the people you like. Which would be no fun, because who would you shoot at?

      Wait, I think that that analogy is breaking down somewhere...

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    60. Re:VAC is a joke by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      I think cheating is only a problem when there is actual competition going on. Public servers in any FPS-game are so random anyway, that only a blatant aimbotter can affect the game negatively. Luckily, these guys are easy to spot and ban by the server admins.

      Speaking as someone who used to cheat in Day of Defeat (pre Steam, pre-vac) I'd have to disagree. In Omaha Beach map when I was at the sniper position (there was only one if you were on the German side) I never saw anyone get past the beach front - and I wasn't even using an aimbot (I was just using a client side hack to paint all the enemy targets red). If no-one was cheating it was actually a relatively balanced map.

      I've since grown up (I've only had the one steam account and every single one of my games is active - not banned), but yeah - cheating gives you massive advantages over the other side that I'm sure made it really painful.

      Server admins? Half these servers are run by high school students who unknowingly left the lan party machine on from last week connected to the net, and I'd bet money most don't even know how to kick/ban someone.

      And before steam - if someone did kick/ban me - I'd change the MAC address on the router and be back in the game - its a total joke.

      What they need to do is segregate the servers. One group for corporate maintained machines and another for privately owned servers. Game-masters need to make sweeps through corporately owned servers and take action as necessary, and they need to act on complaints.

      In a tournament match in counterstrike about a year ago - we presented a video where a guy got flash banged in his face, and still managed to do 3 head shots on enemy players (despite not being able to see) to valve, and they did nothing about it because their logs didn't say anything... I'm like - but its in the recorded demo! Everything this guy says if fluff - their own support people prove that.

    61. Re:VAC is a joke by chronosan · · Score: 1

      If the cheater is on your team, please do as I do and try to piss him off by bunny hopping in front of him, hitting him with smoke grenades and basically giving away his position by any means necessary.

    62. Re:VAC is a joke by anyGould · · Score: 1

      If we banned them all, we'd have like 2 servers left, full of people who are actually good at the game. I'd have no one to shoot.

      I think there's plenty of sub-awesome non-cheaters out there to shoot at.

    63. Re:VAC is a joke by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We play AA2 CSAR at are the top clan on battle tracker but still certain clans look for any excuse to ban us from their server.

      Not still. Because of that. And it's not even envy or inferiority complex.

      It all comes down to "imagine it's war and nobody shows up". Or rather, imagine it's multiplayer and nobody wants to play on the server because the other side is simply a few leagues above your skill. Nobody stays for long on such a server. I am facing a similar problem, even though our team is far from the top honchos on some tracker. But any time we join a server in force, someone will complain and soon an admin will offer us the choice of splitting up between the teams or face the boot.

      It makes sense from the admin's position. His goal is to run a server that gets players. Now, if you're facing a team that's been playing with each other for a while, even if they're not good, they still have an edge over you and the other X players on your side who simply do not act as a team. They just happen to have the same shirt color, that's all. Even if your team sucks, you will have an edge. Now, if your team also consists of top level players, it's literally carnage, not a battle.

      And, be honest, would you stay were you on the other team, getting your ass handed over and over? Neither would I.

      So you have 16 people on one side and a fluctuation of a few hundred people on the other with an average tenure of 30 seconds. After a while, there won't be anyone left to join and everyone will have gone to other servers. Will you stay? Doubt it, what's less fun than battling thin air?

      So the admin faces the choice of either kicking you off or having to deal with a soon-to-be empty server.

      Our solution was to split the crew evenly amongst the sides. That way we could still all hand some noob their rears while at the same time getting a nice challenge out of it, too.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    64. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      of course, most cheaters don't care about being caught by VAC a couple weeks down the road, because they usually lose access to whatever stolen account they are using at the moment long before VAC catches up to them.

      Then, the hapless moron who got their account stolen gets stuck with a VAC ban forever.

    65. Re:VAC is a joke by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Basing any sort of anti-cheat on stats would be a terrible idea.

      More to the point, you don't even need any automated system for that, if players can kickvote. In fact, all too often I see people kickvoted for being "too good", even when it's clear to better players that it really is probably just skill and not hacking.

    66. Re:VAC is a joke by twidarkling · · Score: 2, Funny

      Late in the life? Cheating happened almost instantly on D1. It took me over a year to find out that the Grandfather wasn't actually 1-handed.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    67. Re:VAC is a joke by gparent · · Score: 1

      I don't agree at all, actually, considering I've just said it simply added a minute or two of setup.

      The only thing I can see being harder is finding a server in-between two locations on the world map for optimal ping, which is currently impossible with IWNet.

    68. Re:VAC is a joke by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 3, Informative

      PunkBuster is awful. I don't need their shit running in the background 24/7. If MW2 used PB, I would not have purchased it.

      The thing about VAC that people don't fucking get is that it runs on a delayed ban wave system. They don't ban people immediately for cheating. They want to flag as many cheaters as they can to keep the cheat writers guessing... then slam hundreds of cheaters with a ban all at once... often a week or more past the date they were flagged. This method is great for Team Fortress 2 and Counter-Strike, but unfortunately not so much with a server-less game like MW2. In TF2 and CS, you can ban people from your server and not have to put up with them (and some servers have votekick mods as well), but MW2 doesn't have servers, admins, votekick, cheat reporting.... none of it. And that's a major roadblock to many people for an otherwise-great game, and I'm hoping that perhaps Infinity Ward decides to try and recover the PC community's image of them and make it up to them with better anti-cheater features. But for now, they're just giving us the middle finger.

      Still a good game, though, and I still play it. The cheating isn't nearly as rampant as it was when any jackass could pirate the game and essentially have infinite copies to play online after being banned, and this matchmaking system that everybody bitches about is, imo, better than dedicated servers. Dedicated servers in CoD4 are absolute shit. The CoD community is shit. The modding community that people cite in their pro-dedi argument is inexistant. Matchmaking lets me not have to deal with laggy servers with useless mods and stupid rules and hammer-happy admins. Thank you IW for matchmaking... now fix it.

    69. Re:VAC is a joke by jwhitener · · Score: 0

      Just speculating here...

      What if the stat banning isn't deciding based on your score alone? It might be that if player A goes 20:1 on 3 maps in a row on server A, and another person, player B, goes 20:1 on server B for 3 maps, you are both allowed to keep playing. But if you meet up on server C on opposing sides, and player A is still 20:1 while player B is now 0:20, it decides that player A might be cheating?

      If they did use stats, it might be vastly more complex than what I presented. Looking at the historical stats of all the players around you, for each map, and 'estimating' whether you are play vastly better, given your competition, than you have in the past.

    70. Re:VAC is a joke by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      And thanks to that piece of shit they call "Match Maker" when you rejoin you get dumped in exactly the same game.

      When someone figures a way to part MW2 from Steam, I'll blow the dust off my copy and start playing it again.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    71. Re:VAC is a joke by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      That is entirely possible, you're correct, but it would be quite ineffective against people who only occasionally cheat, and honestly, those are the people you want VAC to catch; the perpetual cheaters are just banned by server admins.

      Unless you're playing MW2, I guess.

    72. Re:VAC is a joke by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

      I have a few times. TF2 is best played on large gaming community servers like Doorman is God or No Heroes. I pay four bucks a month (No Heroes) and have some nice perks like not getting killed at the end of a round, immune to auto balance and swap teams as I see fit. We always are on the lookout for cheaters and so far I caught one who of course was just being a dick. His spray was gay pron as well as his steam icon and he was a sniper. So after spectating him for a bit it was obvious he was cheating and I type !callforhelp in chat and within a minute an admin was there and banned him.

      Once me and my brother came across an interesting TF2 cheat program. A player was of course the sniper and getting one headshot after another. It was obvious he was cheating but when everyone tried to spectate him he suddenly wasn't getting all of those impossible head shots. So we determined his cheat alerted him when he was being watched or disabled itself. So I decided to leave my computer and go make a sandwich while I was spectating him. After about three minutes he wasn't hitting a damn thing so he quit and I wasn't hungry anymore. Never saw that hack again.

    73. Re:VAC is a joke by chihowa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Basing any sort of anti-cheat on stats would be a terrible idea.

      More to the point, you don't even need any automated system for that, if players can kickvote. In fact, all too often I see people kickvoted for being "too good", even when it's clear to better players that it really is probably just skill and not hacking.

      Usually, the protection against that is player recognition. I've been playing Dystopia a lot lately and the relatively small community combined with the stats (and ranking) system provide that. You get good by playing a lot, which means that other players recognize you and your rank goes up. The model of having you spec other teammates between respawns also helps you spot cheaters without having to stop playing to spec them.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    74. Re:VAC is a joke by Foo2rama · · Score: 1

      Really? play on a secured server, we have been running one since launch and we rarely have cheaters trying to look legit. Like 4 a year maybe, some people are just dmaned good. We get about 6 obvious hackers a year... Considering we are full almost 24/7 with admins on all the time I think we would see a widespread issue.

      In addition TFII is not really hacker friendly with the exception of the sniper class. Aim bots are worthless on the majority classes, and the way most stock mas are designed wall hacks do not work well (tested and confirmed using blocking geometry). Spiky head models are an issue but VAC and sv_pure 1 servers which CRC check model files prevent those.

      --


      ---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
    75. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VACs answer to banning people is purely based on stats

      This is absolutely wrong. VAC monitors anything being run while you play and identifies cheats by catching external processes reading or modifying the game's memory, and probably by looking for known signatures of hacks.

    76. Re:VAC is a joke by YourExperiment · · Score: 1

      No, I think it's quite clear that VAC does not operate based on stats.

      Except the ratio of cheat-code to non-cheat-code running on your system.

    77. Re:VAC is a joke by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      If someone is connecting to your machine, there has to be a way to drop their connection.

      Like, if you blocked their IP in your hosts file, wouldn't they just drop? (Networking is not my major strength, but you get the idea...)

    78. Re:VAC is a joke by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I'm in and have been in several clans over the years. Joining up on the same side to play against people of equal skill is no big deal. But if it turns out that we're steamrolling newbies, then we split our players (3 on one side, 2 on the other, etc.). Anything else is a dick move on the clan's part IMO and it's no wonder that they get banned.

    79. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still play MechWarrior 2 sometimes. I don't know what you mean about Steam though. Mine is a standalone CD-ROM for DOS.

    80. Re:VAC is a joke by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      Lets see, if anti cheating is such a priority, how come MW2 is so broke? I can't play anymore, as its got so bad that I've seen 3 aimbotters in one game. No votekicking or PB makes it so that you have to put up with it. VACs answer to banning people is purely based on stats, there is no checking of memory resident cheats at all. Add to the fact that the game gets patched every blue moon, and it's a hackers dream. Shove VAC up your arse, don't try and blow your own trumpet over something that just doesn't work.

      From the comments under TFA:

      Angry MW2 Player 02.19.2010 Blatent bullshit. VAC does not work at all for MW2, to the point where I've seen 3 aimbots in use on one 12 player game. Checking for memory resident hacks or altered texture files? nope, VAC doesn't do that either. What other false claims you want to make? VAC makes the best pizza? .

      ...to which another poster replied:

      Jake 02.19.2010 Hey - Angry MW2 Player -VAC is for Valve developed games. Not for third party games distributed via Steam. Get a clue and go bitch to MW2 devs..

      I guess I can see why parent was modded 'troll' :P. Dunno if what the latter poster wrote is true but it does make sense. I don't do multiplayer at all since my Jedi Knight days so I'm getting a kick out of this thread as a disinterested spectator :).

    81. Re:VAC is a joke by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Team Fortress is overrun with cheaters and Valve seems completely unable to do anything about it.

      At least VAC has no false positives.

      Punkbuster...hah! That shit kicked me from servers a thousand times, and then started instant-crashing my games. At least it didn't BSOD my computer. >_>

      Is TF2 really overrun by cheaters? I must be really good, then.

    82. Re:VAC is a joke by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      I met two cheaters. One guy was an engi running around pistolling everyone to death. His ally was a kritz medic. He kept killing snipers from across the map.

      But I feel for cheating to be "rampant", you have to spot them everywhere.

      Left 4 Dead has/had rampant cheating. (the community has mostly died) I think I've lost perhaps 4 rounds in a year of play where the other side wasn't cheating. Cheaters are obvious though - they do stuff like locking on to unspawned boomers behind trucks, one-shotting a hunter that's pouncing from behind, then instantly shooting a zombie in front, etc.; another good clue is lag hax, where the player or infected warps around as soon as you shoot them, thus dodging you. Or when they noclip into the air and start gunning your tank down with an autoshotty that they pulled from nowhere, that's another good clue.

      A few cheaters are more discreet, but most cheaters can be spotted with ease if you spec for a couple minutes. Either break out the ban hammer or mark it down as another loss (or sometimes win) to cheaters. :P

    83. Re:VAC is a joke by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      If we banned them all, we'd have like 2 servers left, full of people who are actually good at the game.

      Hey... I enjoy those servers!

      On random public servers, I often get 20-30 kill streaks. (almost daily) Then I join my favourite Jening server, and am lucky to stay at 1:1. It's way more fun, though.

    84. Re:VAC is a joke by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Only works in game modes with friendly fire which unfortunately doesn't cover my favourite mode (domination). The limited playlists are annoying though they're probably still a better solution than the crap that's in some console games (The Conduit's voting is just... terrible along with everything else in that POS game that IGN overhyped).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    85. Re:VAC is a joke by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      When MW2 was coming out I was faced with the choice of coughing up the cash to upgrade my PC

      MW2 ran fine on my 5 year old PC, it's really not demanding. Was your system much older than that?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    86. Re:VAC is a joke by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      That depends on what the cheat does. Cheating in Diablo to alter your stats would of course have a massive impact but if you use server-side characters like in D2 cheating is limited to enhancing the interface and I don't think interface boosts are that useful in D2. Cheating in an RTS that uses P2P synced playing can't do more than maphack and possibly add interface improvements because the default one is shit (looking at Starcraft here). Strangely I haven't seen any maphacks in Spring RTS despite its opensource nature so you could trivially modify it to maphack, I have seen much more complicated exploits being used (like hijacking somebody else's position on the server by pretending to be him before he connects).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    87. Re:VAC is a joke by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      You're right, he just referred to the character traits.

      But I have no problems with dimwits, idjits, griefers if they don't cheat. Griefers that don't cheat have very limited griefing potential, most games have some kind of checks and balances against the "legally" possible griefing.

      Dimwits and idjits with a mouse but no aimbot? No problem. Keep 'em coming. On our side, well, tough luck. On the enemie's side: excellent fodder.

      After getting owned for months because of no teamplay, most idjits and dimwits enter a state of metamorphosis: some take up aimbots = cheater, to be roasted - but most sober up and become reasonable players.

      For every week player, roll a d20:
      - 1-15: stay dimwit
      - 16-19: sober up and become reasonable
      - 20: download a cheat, get hardware-GUID banned for life

      Win-Win.

    88. Re:VAC is a joke by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      I was explicitly referring to cheaters. The character traits of other players are much less damaging since they don't have an aimbot or wallhack to amplify their egos.

      That way, reality (gaming reality) will hobble and wear them down. Dimwits with superior skillz are a challenge, dimwits with regular skillz are usually excellent cannon fodder. Most of them sober up after a while, some take up cheating. If we ban the cheaters, we have only a kind of racemic mixture of dimwits and reasonable players. New dimwits arrive every day, some dimwits convert to the side of reason. If cheaters are expelled, this would be a situation we could endure. We always get new reasonable teammates and always enough cannon fodder. Win-win :)

    89. Re:VAC is a joke by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I was explicitly referring to cheaters.

      I realize that. I was not.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    90. Re:VAC is a joke by dave562 · · Score: 1

      My video card is a 256MB GeForce 8600 and the CPU isn't much better. I didn't want to settle for fine. I wanted smooth, kick ass, glitch free gaming. I knew that I would get that with a console. The only problem I have with the game is when I have a slow connection, and that's a network issue, not a symptom of the hardware being unable to render the frame fast enough.

    91. Re:VAC is a joke by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      Our solution was to split the crew evenly amongst the sides.

      We have no problem with doing this, but then we just get accused of ghosting even though our teamspeak server is public and anyone can join.

      To be honest I always like to play against other players in my clan since it keeps you sharp playing people who are better than you.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    92. Re:VAC is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, PB is why I couldn't play COD:2. I could play it single user (until I wiped windows, then I got a line of shit there too.), but online? forget it, I got kicked within a minute of connecting.

      with the game I purchased, from the store, sealed. No hacks or cheats.

      yet it still thought I was a cheater so I kept getting kicked from online play.

      Needless to say I'm never buying another COD, including MW2. I was treated like a criminal, and when I contacted tech support, all I got was an accusatory tone from them about cheating. That's right, I'm guilty for buying a game and installing it, and because their bullshit DRM and anti-cheat shit, it put me out $50. I could pirate it, but that would still be giving them some recognition that I still want to deal with their horse shit.

      I told them to fuck themselves up the ass and that they arent getting any more business from me.

      Fuck you Infinity Ward and fuck you Activision.

    93. Re:VAC is a joke by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I ran it on an Athlon 64 3000 and a GeForce 6800, the framerate was smooth.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    94. Re:VAC is a joke by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's basically the added bonus. You can improve your tactics because you're playing against someone who KNOWS your tactics. Because he simply practices it with you, you share the same information. You can improve so even if some team you're playing against ever learned to "read" you, they still can't catch you with your pants down because you're used to it that your tactics got "out".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    95. Re:VAC is a joke by 0232793 · · Score: 1

      Well its finding the steam id that's the problem. And not in my experience of admining do they eliminate the hidden characters. Often it seems the admins don't even notice two ppl have the same / very similar name. I've had plenty of instances of admins banning the wrong person. Lol i've had times where people don't even try to voteban me 'cause they think i'm console.

    96. Re:VAC is a joke by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I don't know whether VAC checks for memory-resident cheats,

      I believe VAC still works like an AV program, checking for 'signatures'. Most (paid for) cheats detect when a new version of VAC is released and unload themselves until a patch has been made to once again avoid VAC.

      As an additional data-point, my TF2 team kicked a player who wrote his own memory-injected wall-hack. He was never banned (as far as I know), though he claims he stopped cheating after we kicked him.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    97. Re:VAC is a joke by Acaeris · · Score: 1

      Unless Infinity Ward specifically built in support for VAC (which would mean it'd be with the non-steam version of MW2 as well) then VAC doesn't do anything to MW2 because it has little idea what to look for and no ability to ban/kick players from the game.

      It's not limited to Valve games but most other companies prefer Punkbuster or leaving it in the hands of server admins.

  2. Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

    What all these anti-cheating efforts fail to realize is that cheating is an integral part of the game, especially in computer gaming. Given that such a cheat can be performed by anyone, the playing field is *always* level in the aggregate. By removing actions that they consider cheating, they are removing key gameplay elements and ultimately changing the face of the game.

    Additionally, it says a lot that they must resort to installing what is essentially a rootkit just to make sure someone isn't taking advantage of superior technology or extra knowledge. If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in.

    Crippling superior players is Communism.

    1. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Ayn Rand was an insufferable bitch with opinions that... wait why the fuck would you even TALK about playing games if you're a Rand fan? Don't you have work to do with all your waking hours?

    2. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Purist · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What a load of crap.

      A "superior player" doesn't need cheats any more than top baseball players or Olympians need steroids.

      As a matter of fact....it's an easy argument to make that INFERIOR players are the ones who need to leverage cheats.

      --
      I used to fear clowns...but I'm discovering that chimps are far, far, worse.
    3. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by ShooterNeo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Erm, actually...the best athletes in the world are that way because of their tremendous hard work, genetic endowment, AND because they take steroids...The BEST athletes use everything.

    4. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by CaptnMArk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IMO every Quake Instagib server should have a (callvote) option for insta_weapon 1 (great fun, but
      aimbot cheaters usually get bored very soon)

    5. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Khyber · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "What a load of crap.

      A "superior player" doesn't need cheats any more than top baseball players or Olympians need steroids.

      As a matter of fact....it's an easy argument to make that INFERIOR players are the ones who need to leverage cheats."

      Go say that to anyone in the Q3 community and watch the nearest railgun get rammed up your ass - we RELIED upon those engine glitches to gain the edge.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by eeCyaJ · · Score: 0, Troll

      For a given value of 'best'. In theory, as you say, being the 'best' will likely entail hard work and genetics, but they should also be ethical; examples to us all as to what we can achieve. The reality is closer to what you say, though - although I doubt it's only steroids that they use to enhance performance. Then again, we might just be comparing apples to oranges here since it's probably a lot harder to cheat (and not get caught) in a gaming tournament, where actual money is on the line, than it is in an athletics competition.

    7. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by obarthelemy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you saying that top sportsmen/women don't use drugs ?

      On which planet ?

      I'd actually be surprised if a single one of the top 20 athletes in every sport was NOT using drugs. Popular team sports seem to suffer less from the issue than athletics only because they are more commercial, thus care less about fairness and the health of their practitioners, thus enforce much less strict controls. It took deaths on the Tour de France for cyclism to tackle the issue.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    8. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the lamer that can't manage a decent ratio without this downloaded skillz.

    9. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glitching is a whole issue on its own. Personally I don't think it's cheating, mainly because it does indeed require skills to do it.
      Cheating on the other hand means that the lamest kiddie can get a cheat and then kick the ass out of way more talented players, all while trolling the entire server saying how leet he is ZOMG!!!!!111!
      Watching them pwnd by the entire server the rare times they decide to unite against him is satisfying tough.

    10. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

      >If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in.
      You're trolling right? If you really think it works like this you should try re-educating yourself when it comes to modern day cheats, we're not talking about iddqd game recognized cheats here..

    11. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

      Your comparison is laughworthy. Think of an athlete using an "aimbot" at speerthrowing for example, we would then imagine a machine standing at the point where the athlete would stand with the athlete behind it pushing one button and the machine calculating the exact shot and shooting automaticly.

    12. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by badpazzword · · Score: 1

      Glitches? What glitches? Consider that Quake Live comes with TUTORIALS and official maps on strafe jumping, circle jumping, plasma climbing...

      --
      When ideas fail, words become very handy.
    13. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Y'know...I've seen some real STUPID responses before...YOU WIN!!
      Cheating is NOT an integral part of the game. The playing field is always level? ROFLMAO go play against a 12 year old that has an Aim bot....tell me how level that is. You just wanted to use the word aggregate in a sentence didn't you? You didn't care the entire sentence was horse crap.
      Superior technology...what a load of crap that is...setting it so the aim is always deadly and that it cycles through every weapon you own and fires them all within a nanosecond? How do you combat that? MORE CHEATING.
      Your ignorant.
      Take your "aggregate" and shove it kid.

      Superior players don't MIND the rules.....its the rules that they have to make because of idiots like you...that we mind.

    14. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      so instead of attacking her assertions (or the parent's assertion of them), you attack her character?

    15. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      superior players is Communism.

      Hello my american friend!

    16. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by bitrex · · Score: 1, Troll

      Alan Greenspan, a long time Randist, had the same opinion about fraud in financial markets. He essentially argued that there was no such thing as "fraud", and that anything done within the bounds of the "free market" was a valid expression of the mechanics of that system, whatever those mechanics may be. It does work out well if you happen to be the one committing the fraud, and for an Objectivist the line between "I have the right to keep what's mine" and "I have the right to take what's yours" seems like it would be an easy one to cross.

    17. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Obvious troll is obvious, you're all posting in a troll thread. Don't feed BadAnalogyGuy, you know him, he always trolls.,

    18. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      the comparison is between cheating and cheating... is that hard to understand ?

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    19. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah this is completely nonsense... I used to play TFC competitively, at the CPL tournaments in Dallas at the very highest levels of gameplay. The cheaters in TFC were most definitely the *worse* players. The players who relied on instinct, knowledge of the maps, and strategy had all the tools for success. The ones who relied on seeing objects through walls were completely predictable.

      Sure I'd take a lot of deaths that annoyed me because I was at an unfair advantage. In the end, our team would rarely lose to anyone, let alone cheaters. People that are good at the game think ahead of their opponents. Good chess players, good basketball players and good video game players all have this quality... people that cheat rarely have this quality. If they did, they would "see ahead" and realize that the cheats they are using to gain an advantage will only get them removed from what they so dearly loved.

    20. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What all these anti-cheating efforts fail to realize is that cheating is an integral part of the game, especially in computer gaming. Given that such a cheat can be performed by anyone, the playing field is *always* level in the aggregate. By removing actions that they consider cheating, they are removing key gameplay elements and ultimately changing the face of the game.

      Additionally, it says a lot that they must resort to installing what is essentially a rootkit just to make sure someone isn't taking advantage of superior technology or extra knowledge. If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in.

      Crippling superior players is Communism.

      you sound like a cheater apologist, if you use a cheat, you are only superior through deus ex machina. Remove the cheats and you have a less than average shlub with a morality issue.

    21. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What all these anti-cheating efforts fail to realize is that cheating is an integral part of the game, especially in computer gaming. Given that such a cheat can be performed by anyone, the playing field is *always* level in the aggregate. By removing actions that they consider cheating, they are removing key gameplay elements and ultimately changing the face of the game.

      Additionally, it says a lot that they must resort to installing what is essentially a rootkit just to make sure someone isn't taking advantage of superior technology or extra knowledge. If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in.

      Crippling superior players is Communism.

      What all these anti-murder efforts fail to realize is that murder is an integral part of life, especially in America. Given that such a murder can be performed by anyone, the playing field is *always* level in the aggregate. By removing actions that they consider murder, they are removing key life goals and ultimately changing the face of humanity.

      Additionally, it says a lot that they must resort to installing what is essentially a police force just to make sure someone isn't taking advantage of superior ability to murder or extra knowledge of how to carry it out. If life is so difficult with frequent random murdering allowed, perhaps we shouldn't have been made mortal

      Crippling superior murderers is Communism.

      The problem with Ayn Rand is that her hysterics appeal to a lot of high school students who forget to think about them in more detail when they grow up.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    22. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      "Who needs steroids and hard work when you've got a tire iron?" - Tonya Harding

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    23. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      Kudos for the well-played troll! You are my hero.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    24. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Been to an archery tournament recently?

    25. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Draek · · Score: 3, Funny

      Which is why I only play local multiplayer and break my opponents' fingers off with a hammer. If God hadn't intended me to cheat as such, He wouldn't have made people so squishy. Or they could've shown up in full-body armor, though I guess that wouldn't save them from my 'welding torch' backup solution.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    26. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greenspan to his credit has recently admitted this life long belief of his (and Rands) is wrong.

    27. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Depends, most glitches are highly anti-competitive, so I'd rather have all glitching considered to be a bug and have the glitch patched. You can't really treat a glitcher like a cheater - they're not technically cheating but I find their total lack of sportsmanship in many cases just as disgusting.

      For example, on MP:H on the DS there was a wallhack on one map where one player could bunker themselves in, take no damage and shoot outside - the best the other player could hope for is to dodge every single shot and end the game in a tie. Players were randomly placed on the map at the start, so given two players who were equally skilled at slipping into the wall, the winner would be based on pure luck. In any case it ruins the game.

      Also in Bleach: Blade of Fate there were ways to pull off infinite combos. It was really, really freaking hard and obviously not meant to be possible, but a huge oversight on the designers' part. Again given two equally skilled glitch-exploiters, it became basically a quick-draw competition - who gets the other player locked in an infinite combo first. Not fun.

      Short rant on that:

      What kills me is that the infinite combos could have been easily fixed in the sequel by a combination of preventing/limiting players from being hit again after bouncing off a wall, and slightly adjusting the timing and range of some attacks, with little to no effect on gameplay. Instead the dumbass designers tried to fix them with other methods, including nerfing attack power, increasing HP and reducing mobility (to the point of making some powerful, costly attacks hilariously easy to evade), and only fixed most of the glitches - overall Bleach: Dark Souls was slightly less fun IMO. The single player was just not as fun with the nerfing, and you'd still run into a good number of glitch-exploiters online.

      -End rant-

      There are some glitches that aren't anticompetitive - many older FPSes allowed blast damage to travel through walls and floors. Annoying, but no big deal. Anyone can do it at any time, everyone's vulnerable to it, it isn't up to chance - there's no free lunch here. Rocket jumping started as a glitch and is now considered a fair part of gameplay in many FPSes - I don't have a problem with it. But I'd rather have glitches treated as bugs rather than "bonus features."

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    28. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Maybe a speed hack would be a better analogy for drug use in athletics? Sure there's nothing as bad as an aimbot IRL but cheating is cheating.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    29. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by xmousex · · Score: 1

      I was innocently busy at work and I heard the most epic whooshing sound shake the entire city. I dropped everything and ran over to /. to see wtf just happened and i found your post, and all the idiots who posted after it to argue with you and then call ayn rand names. fucking LOLOLOLL. There should be a hall of troll fame somewhere for posts like this.

      Are the rest of you really this easy???

    30. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by jayme0227 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Barry Bonds was one of the best players in baseball before he started doping. Then he started doping and became the best player in baseball. What'd he lose? Potentially being a hall of famer? So what. He made his money, and sometimes that's all people care about.

      --
      But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
    31. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      they should also be ethical; examples to us all as to what we can achieve

      I can never achieve the genetics of a pro athelete. I can, however, take steroids. The "ethics" are completely arbitrary here.

      Games have rules, and one of the rules for many pro sports is "no steroids". Steroids are unethical in the game way that a corked bat it unethical: because it's against the rules, and not because some people are silly enough to confuse atheletes for heroes.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    32. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Well played, sir!

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    33. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Additionally, it says a lot that they must resort to installing what is essentially a rootkit just to make sure someone isn't taking advantage of superior technology or extra knowledge. If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in.

      It seems you are confused.

      Crippling superior players is Communism.

      Confusion confirmed. You know nothing about what we're talking about, and so you should just go sit in the corner.

    34. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by BergZ · · Score: 1

      Atlas Shrugged was one long, drawn out, "slippery slope" argument. Are you happy now?

      --
      Warning: This sig is not thread safe. For more information see Slashdot's sig policy.
    35. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      If these games are so unplayable with cheating enabled, perhaps the designers shouldn't have put those features in

      I think I love this part the most. It shows exactly how little people understand hacks.

      An aimbot is not using any other features than those used to calculate where a shot is headed, and basic hit-test rigor.
      God Mode can basically be achieved by activating the medics uber, over and over again.

      Basically, in order to prevent cheating, you must make the game unplayable. Genius.

      (I know you were joking, but I couldn't help myself)

    36. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Demonspawn · · Score: 1

      examples to us all as to what we can achieve.

      But we can't achieve that no matter how much work we put in... we don't have the genetics like they do.

    37. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by twidarkling · · Score: 1

      I agree, glitches and cheats aren't equivalent, and some are really bad for competitiveness.

      On the other hand, it's hilarious when properly exploited (yes, it's story time).

      Back when I was a wee youngling, at Christmas time, we went to my Grandmother's, and I brought my N64. My cousin's boyfriend (who was probably 10 years older than me) saw me playing Mario Kart, and bragged that he was the best player at his local gaming hangout. So, of course we played, and he magnanimously allowed me choice of track. Since I was aiming to put the loud-mouthed condescending twit in his place, I picked Wario Stadium.

      There's a bug where you can jump over the wall right near the start, and cut half the track.

      He did not take being served by a 14-year-old well.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    38. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glitches aren't aimbots, triggerbots and wallhacks, though, are they?

    39. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Khyber · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You must be too young to remember the original Quake 3, then.

      Learn how to adjust your FPS in the console to make yourself move faster than other players!

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    40. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Gabrosin · · Score: 1

      Anyone who crosses the line into belief that "I have the right to take what's yours" ceases to be an Objectivist, regardless of whether they still consider themselves to be one. The first statement ("I have the right to keep what's mine") is a derivation of the core statement ("A person has the right to keep the products of his or her labor", for simplification's sake), and if you don't apply it equally across all persons, then you're not an Objectivist.

    41. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate Ayn Rand.

    42. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's one hell of a false equivalency you've built there, and it says a lot about slashdot these days that this kind of retarded post gets modded insightful.

      The problem with Karl Marx is that his hysterics appeal to a lot of... aww, forget it, you are a lost cause.

    43. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by chickenarise · · Score: 1

      It took deaths on the Tour de France for cyclism to tackle the issue.

      Wasn't it blood thickeners that were killing cyclists?

      --
      One convenient locations...in Africa.
    44. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by ShooterNeo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Best means one thing. A good athlete wins often in whatever sport he or she plays. The best athlete has the highest chance of winning out of any other athlete in the world. It doesn't matter how they got this chance. An ethical, non-drug using athlete can never be the best athlete, because an athlete with similar training and genetic potential who is using drugs will always have an advantage.

    45. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Wait, doesn't Bleach let you damage cancel out of an infinite? It's only one bar too so it's much cheaper than, say, megacrashing out of a combo in Tatsunoko vs Capcom. Or is there something in the infinite that prevents you from using the damage cancel?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    46. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I figure the Ayn Rand reference means he's trolling objectivists.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    47. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      America: Deathmatch Country!

      That sounds like a good premise for a game.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    48. Re:Ayn Rand had a lot to say about this by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      If you have some spirit pressure you can damage cancel out, but you start the match with none, and getting hit doesn't build it up much. Then when you do damage cancel out, you have to be very careful not to let the other player put you back into an infinite combo (and getting it started is easy, sustaining it is hard). The first game gave players much less HP so getting caught in an infinite combo at the start of a match would cost you about 3/4 of your health in a best case scenario.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  3. Privacy? by zoloto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't run Windows for privacy, I run it to play games. My real work stays on my Linux/OS X machine.

    1. Re:Privacy? by damburger · · Score: 1

      Me too. I don't have any details on my windows partition that I wouldn't object to Valve obtaining, given that I understand there is really no other way to control cheating on public servers.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    2. Re:Privacy? by HigH5 · · Score: 1

      Me too. The "Games for Windows" tag should be the other way around anyway. And nothing else.

      --
      Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse delendam.
    3. Re:Privacy? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know that doing anything client-side will work, for the same reason that DRM doesn't work. I guess it might deter the casual cheater, but then there's also the possibility that raising the bar will entice people to break the anti-cheating code just for the challenge.

      The long-term solution I think is to design the game in such a way that the server can verify clients are playing by the rules. If wallhacks are a problem, the server could send fake data to the client telling it there's an enemy hidden behind a wall (when it's really not). Legitimate players won't be aware of this, but it would alter the behaviour of cheaters and thus they could be found out. Aimbots could perhaps be detected by supplying an invisible model that a legitimate player wouldn't be shooting at. Essentially, give the client bogus data that won't affect the experience of legit players, but will out cheaters.

      Maybe it's easier to keep changing the client-side checks fast enough that it's not worth the time to work around, but I don't know if that kind of strategy is working in practice. Who will pay for the constant development?

    4. Re:Privacy? by powerspike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      in everquest 1, there was a program called showeq, it showed the map, and everything on it, where it was moving direction etc. What sony did was in one of the zones, put in hidden mobs called "show eq sucks", i know a few people got their accounts suspended telling people about it. Hidden objects etc work. If the server thinks someone is cheating, ie kill 5 people with 1 shots really fast, broadcast to that client invisible characters, if the person shoots at them - kick them for cheating. The thing about cheating is, the programs are automatic, look for items, workout what they look for, you can throw out "counter measures" then ban their arses.

    5. Re:Privacy? by Xest · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Then you made a poor platform choice.

      The PC in general is an open platform because you can easily and trivially run whatever code on it you want and peak and poke the memory as you see fit, even if the OS itself is closed.

      If you want a gaming platform where cheating is not an issue, you need a closed platform, like a console, where it is much easier for the developers to detect and prevent cheating, if there is even any in the first place. Despite being 5 years old this year, whilst it has suffered some game logic cheats which are easily patched, the Xbox 360 has yet to be prone to a single aimbot or radar cheat for example.

      PC's are great for general usage and single player/cooperative gaming, but not for competitive gaming where cheating is largely an unsolveable problem without closing the platform, which goes against what PCs are great at. Even assuming in a few years you move everything server side and just pass images to the client there's still the possibility that people will write pattern recognition apps, to recognise enemies and send control messages to aim at them like any other aimbot.

    6. Re:Privacy? by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Despite what the league players would have you think Valve's games are not generally played with (or designed for) less than 16-24 people, and 32 is not remotely uncommon. What your suggesting effectively doubles the load on the server AND each affected player.

      Plus most cheaters would not readily be detectable this way. Aimbots tend to be activated by the player right before firing after the player manually gets pretty close to the target on their own, and wallhacks are generally used as an advantage in information rather than open combat.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    7. Re:Privacy? by phoenix321 · · Score: 3, Funny

      A chemo for the cancer that is killing TF2? - I'm in :)

      BF2 Project Reality does similar things, I think. Once in a while I see something flickering at the side of the screen for a single frame or so. I guess an aimbot would trigger and react instantly while a human player wouldn't even notice unless camp^w tactically waiting somewhere for a while.

      This mod has been out for several years and they probably won't leave any visible graphics glitch in there if it was a mistake. The server code is not freely downloadable and obscurity is probably one of the reasons for it.

    8. Re:Privacy? by phoenix321 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Amen brother.

      I still hope they will squash cheaters because in my personal view they are scum comparable to child molesters. I would not want to have the "open platform" PC abandoned for games because of them.

      It would be a shame to see more platform balkanization or a joypad-only environment for all the games. The moment a closed platform is exclusively established, running fees will come running, I know that. And I actually like to have one notebook for everything, gaming, working and internet. It's extremely convenient not to forget very portable.

    9. Re:Privacy? by karnal · · Score: 1

      I play regularly on a server that typically has admins on on peak hours (8pm-12am EST) and it remains fairly clean. Anyone new is usually scrutinized pretty hard; and the existing players are all there to have a good time. The banhammer comes out quick if you're cheating.... Even quicker if you mouth off to the admins or start spouting racial slurs.

      Oh yea, they also toss anyone under a reasonable (16-18) age range, since we get kinda foul mouthed and taunt back and forth. If you sound like you're 10 years old, it might cause trouble playing on the server.... but eh, keeps most of the riffraff out.

      --
      Karnal
    10. Re:Privacy? by gparent · · Score: 1

      It's not like it would change anything if you were running Linux.

    11. Re:Privacy? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think with the PC the key is not so much preventing cheating, but dealing with it.

      As someone else said in response to this article, it's a social problem, and the ability to publicly flag players as cheats is probably the best bet such that if enough people flag one person then they can be kept a closer eye on to see if they really are cheating or something along those lines.

      I agree that we don't want to say goodbye to open platforms, because as you say, closed platforms mean higher costs, but similarly I think if you really want to play on open platforms, you sadly have to accept the disadvantages that brings in terms of gaming, whilst realising the power of an open platform in other ways- better support for mods is one prominent example of course.

      It's really down to deciding what your priorities are I guess, if cheating is your biggest issue, then paying for a closed platform is the solution, if modding or cost is a priority then stick with the open platform and understand that there may be cheating online however.

    12. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Re: Xbox 360 and aimbots
      There are many aimbots available for the Xbox 360. Microsoft has been somewhat fighting this for a long time, with several rounds of banning large amounts of people from the XBox online thingy when they find out how to detect these things.

      However, for games like Modern Warfare 2, hacks are coming out daily.

      Feel free to search Youtube for these things. There are plenty of example, which are both sickening and fun to watch.

    13. Re:Privacy? by brkello · · Score: 1

      Wrong. I can't believe you are being modded up. You are basically making the argument that closed platforms are more secure than open platforms. In other words, you are saying Windows is more secure than Linux.

      Just because the platform is closed, doesn't mean it is hack proof. On the contrary, when a hack is discovered the community can't really know how because it isn't an open platform.

      On top of that, there are plenty of different kinds of hacks. For example, you can hack the controller so that you can do rapid fire rather than having to pull the trigger each time.

      The only want to have a true competition is to put people in front of crowds on standard hardware. If you think consoles are hack proof, you are beyond naive.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    14. Re:Privacy? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If you want a gaming platform where cheating is not an issue, you need a closed platform

      Or you can play with people you know and trust not to cheat.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    15. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that invisible character solution is a fantastic idea!

    16. Re:Privacy? by Seq · · Score: 1

      Cheating doesn't happen on consoles. Except when it does.

      --
      -- Seq
    17. Re:Privacy? by Cypheros · · Score: 1

      I'm not convinced *cheating* is the actual problem here.

      I personally enjoy playing *legitimately* most of the time. But sometimes, I just want to break out the aimbot and trash my friends. Really, the problem isn't necessarily cheating, but rather time and place.

      If [Insert Company Here] wants to maximize anti-cheating efforts, then there needs to be a dedicated area for "cheats allowed", and a dedicated "No Cheats" area. This enables those who wish to use cheats the ability to use those cheats, and enjoy the game as they desire it while not negatively impacting those who wish to play legitimately.

    18. Re:Privacy? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I still hope they will squash cheaters because in my personal view they are scum comparable to child molesters.

      Wow, talk about a distorted sense of proportion...

    19. Re:Privacy? by zero0ne · · Score: 1

      This is a fucking awesome idea.

    20. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummmm... those dedicated "cheats allowed" areas are called servers that don't have VAC or Punkbuster enabled. Please troll else where you prick.

    21. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still trying to figure out why developers haven't put together a light, portable and locked down gaming OS.

    22. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you want a gaming platform where cheating is not an issue, you need a closed platform, like a console..."

      What is your definition of cheating? There are plenty of undetected mod's that can be applied to an Xbox 360 console to give an unfair advantage... are you really suggesting that this is no cheating? Hardware input checks can be bypassed by using any one of the XCM keyboard/mouse modifiers, rapid-fire soft-boards can be put into a controller with relative ease and low cost (you can even purchase a modded controller on eBay for five dollars more than the normal controller), and even aside from that, atleast in MW2, put take on the crosshair for the sniper rifle and then run around shooting without aiming as long as the enemy is behind the tape.

      This is by no means a comprehensive list, but cheats/exploits DO exist in console gaming. If you think other than this you are only lying to yourself. The last two methods are actually easier implemented/cheaper (thanks Youtube) than some of the available cheats for PC games which require basic computer skills and (typically) a monthly subscription.

    23. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    24. Re:Privacy? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Wrong. I can't believe you are being modded up. You are basically making the argument that closed platforms are more secure than open platforms.

      Uh. They are. Closed platforms, ones that are locked down to prevent unauthorized software from running on them, are by their very definition more secure. Hell, that's one of the reasons TPM was invented: being able to prevent malicious code from running on hardware makes the platform more resilient.

      In this case, users would never tolerate a PC that prevented them from installing arbitrary software, including software which enables cheating. However, they are more than happy to purchase a videogame console that's locked down tighter than a nuclear silo.

      Just because the platform is closed, doesn't mean it is hack proof.

      Who said anything about hack *proof*? We're talking about resilience. PCs are *far* more hackable by their very nature. Consoles far less so. If you don't understand that, quite frankly, you're an idiot.

    25. Re:Privacy? by twidarkling · · Score: 2, Funny

      No no, it makes perfect sense.

      You see, these "Games" are for kids. After all, only kids play games. So, anyone who corrupts that experience is obviously a predator, aiming at taking away the innocence of these children, and they're doing nothing more than virtually molesting the poor children by cheating at these games.

      Obviously we mustn't stop cheaters, but save the children just by banning games completely! Otherwise your children will be molested by cheaters!

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    26. Re:Privacy? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      And yet, if the server sends packets out that tell your client to form an 'invisible target', surely the hackers can adjust their program to ignore this. The call from the server to the client for invisible targets is different than the call from the server to the client for a real person. And that difference can be found and accounted for.

      If I recall correctly, the original showEQ ran on linux only, and would run in front of your windows box running EQ. The incoming server packets were sniffed before they reached your client, and this is what produced the nice map showing everything in the zone.

      If CC or any game starts sending invisible targets, I'm pretty sure that the cheaters will just create programs that intercept the packets in front of the game and decide if it is legit or not.

      And then the game company and cheaters will go back and forth, each adjusting their programs and the cheats will come back up as fast as they can be knocked down.

    27. Re:Privacy? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      I wonder if PC games could overcome this by essentially being a bootdisc+game. Like a linux livecd with only 1 program, the game. Pop in the disc, reboot, and you are now in a locked down OS that boots the game.

      I suppose a hacker could copy the cd/dvd to disc, alter it, and then reburn it, and boot from that though... I'm not sure if that could be prevented or not. If would probably require cooperation with hardware makers. Like something in all PC bios that checks whether a bootdisk+game is valid in some way.

    28. Re:Privacy? by getclear · · Score: 1

      And then the game company and cheaters will go back and forth, each adjusting their programs and the cheats will come back up as fast as they can be knocked down.

      What you fail to emphasize, is that after about 3 revolutions of this, people get pretty burned out on reading the posts from the people who were banned during each phase of circumvention. This then compounds itself and people say screw it, it's just gonna get fixed, if i'm detected, i'm banned. Then you are once again left with the demographic of people who fall outside of "honest man, dishonest mistake", and are left with the people who are going to do it regardless.

      In the security world, it's generally a game of keeping the honest man honest. Anything beyond that is in place to slow down the pro.

    29. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a software-only solution won't cut it. You need control over the hardware as well. Remember, we're trying to secure a system that the "enemy" has physical access to.

      Take the Xbox 360 for example. The lowest level of security is in ROM inside the CPU itself. To defeat it, you would have to take apart or replace the CPU. This is very difficult and risky, which deters most would-be hackers.

    30. Re:Privacy? by Xest · · Score: 1

      I think you need to learn the difference between closed hardware and software platforms.

      You seem to be regurgitating the argument for FOSS vs. proprietary software, these arguments make much less sense in the context of hardware. Whilst hardware does also tend to inevitably get hacked, it's often much harder. Specifically, the argument of the community not really knowing aobut the hack because it isn't an open platform is utterly nonsensical in the context of cheating, games, and consoles.

      I don't think consoles are hack proof, I just realise that they are much harder to crack, and much easier to fix than PCs. With PCs you can get round any software fix for a hack in a day, you can even largely automate the process. When it comes to hardware, it can sometimes take weeks to get around, but only days for the vendor to fix, so you effectively have a much higher ratio of cheat free time to cheat filled time on consoles, whilst on the PC, cheats are there pretty much permanently.

    31. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?

      He was talking about privacy, not competitive gaming.

      Anyway, conquering cheating on a PC is simple: make them play in person, on a computer you administer.

    32. Re:Privacy? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      the Xbox 360 has yet to be prone to a single aimbot or radar cheat for example.

      LOL!

      I wish I could give you examples, but I don't own that shitty console. I do know that Left4Dead had horribly rampant cheating, and my friends with consoles were complaining about all the cheaters. But like I said, I don't have one and don't know what games they were. Just that every week it was a different game and more cheater complaints.

    33. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I honestly don't understand the lack of effort, or thinking on the part of anti-cheat programmers. An aimbot is easy to spot. It "teleports" the sight of the gun on to the victim in about 0.0 seconds and keeps it there. Don't bloody tell me you can't test for that! What I don't understand further, is why the software is not running in a sandbox kind of environment, with exclusive access to sensitive memory areas. It is a design problem, fare and square. Minimal effort was spared to protect against KNOWN threats. That is negligence in my book.

    34. Re:Privacy? by zoloto · · Score: 1

      If you can tell me where I can play all of these steam games I play, and many others on a console then by all means. Share the knowledge. But nothing beats a mouse and keyboard for controlling them. Even the Starcraft on the N64 didn't hold up to the PC version.

    35. Re:Privacy? by powerspike · · Score: 1

      While true, The amount of kiddies that would setup a second box to interact with the traffic would be extremely low. On top of that it'd have to communicate with the client (ie aimbot) about it. Highly complex. I think it could be done quite well. Perhaps some type of random identifier on the skins and stuff, so the clients can work out what to display without knowing what it is, that way you should still be able to filter out the cheaters.

  4. Really? by toastar · · Score: 1

    'Cheating is more of a serious threat than piracy.'

    What are they going to start suing their clients now?

    1. Re:Really? by w32jon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the intent is closer to:

      "Cheating kills your game because it makes legit players not want to play it anymore, whereas pirates don't affect your legit users"

    2. Re:Really? by NotBorg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      whereas pirates don't affect your legit users

      Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment.

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    3. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless those pirates are the ones who are cheating.

    4. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This might have been a sound argument if the DRM crap actually affected piracy..

    5. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment."

      Well, the pirates don't do that. The company does. The only way the pirates affect your game then is to give you a 50kb executable that fixes all that shit.

      So of course pirates aren't a problem. They are the solution.

    6. Re:Really? by bbqsrc · · Score: 1

      whereas pirates don't affect your legit users

      Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment.

      What it really comes down to is the company punishing legit customers instead of working harder on a viable product. The pirates don't suffer from their moronic DRM schemes, only the legit customer.

      Ironically, with Ubisoft's new DRM scheme, I'm sure a lot more paying customers will become 'pirates' as anyone with a crappy Internet connection will be searching for a way to 'disable' the crappy constant connection requirements. Really, that's DRM at its most draconian... so far.

      --
      Disagree != mod troll.
    7. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you say, it's only an excuse. Pirates are not the reason for worse DRM and higher prices, only the scapegoats.

    8. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      A friend of mine worked for a...well, lets just say large gaming company and a few years ago he had worked on a project which had a large online component. Despite attempts to prevent piracy, the game was quickly pirated and uploaded to torrent sites around the net (which really wasn't unexpected). What they noticed however is that they could very easily identify the pirated versions playing on the online servers from the legit versions. With a few lines of codes they could permanently prevent those pirated versions from connecting to the servers. But they did not.

      Why?

      Because their sales were slower than they'd like and the online component wasn't as populated as they would have liked it to be. They understood that the piracy didn't necessarily mean lost sales and disabling a major component of the pirated game wouldn't likely create increased revenue. Their biggest threat was an under populated multiplayer. If people who legitimately bought the game avoided the online component because it was tough to find a full server or enough of a selection of servers to keep their interest it would create a snowball effect where the servers would become so unpopulated that the replay value of the game would be crippled. That in turn would seriously damage the amount of people spent talking about the game which in turn would seriously damage sales past the initial first couple weeks.

      So they let the pirates play.

      Did it work? Well, I don't know. My friend opted not to tell me the game's title in case I were to...you know, talk about it on Slashdot a few years later. But the point is, that game companies are well aware of the damage an unhealthy multiplayer community can have on a game's sales to the point of allowing piracy to occur in order to maintain that healthy community.

    9. Re:Really? by phoenix321 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A cheater killing you instantly every time you come within a few lightyears of his avatar is still orders of magnitude worse than having a DVD in your DVD drive when you start the game.

      It may be inconvenient, maybe even damaging the DVD drive, who knows. Replacing the DVD drive after 3 years and the DVD you possibly have to buy a second time when you got a minimal scratch that messes with the copy protection is just money. Unnecessary money, but you could factor it into the experience of playing an expensive game.

      Cheaters on the other hand will ruin the game experience altogether. No amount of money will get you a balanced and fair Modern Warfare 2 right now. (Short of setting up your a LAN tournament on tightly secured computers you own and control)

      One pirate is just lost income, who maybe would've never bought it full price anyway. One cheater can frustrate 63 paying customers per server all day long. As a paying customer, I would rather play with 63 pirates than with 63 other paying customers with one cheater among them.

    10. Re:Really? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment.

      The game companies do that, not the pirates. So blame them. CD/DVD checks are ineffective, and they'll blame their price increases on anything but greed. Yet pirates continue to crack their games while legit users keep having to deal with the problems. Don't give your game dollars to companies that penalise legitimate users. Simple.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    11. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is Valve we're talking about here, who has the least-intrusive DRM scheme on the market short of not having any at all. Any of their games can be played in Offline Mode on Steam (and since it's a digital download, no disc required), and you can install your games as many times as you want. They're also not the kind to "inflate the price of entertainment". They packaged Half-Life 2: Episode 2, Portal, and Team Fortress 2 (all brand new games at the time) with the original Half-Life 2 and Episode 1 and sold the whole thing for $50, and Steam also has fantastic sales fairly often. Finally, they've promised that should Valve ever go under, they'd shut off the DRM restrictions on all their games so the lack of Steam service wouldn't affect them (and Valve's privately traded, so no need to worry about shareholders or whatever putting a wrench in those plans).

      Basically, Valve is the most reliable PC game developer out there.

    12. Re:Really? by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what happened with Steam when it came out around 2004. Valve had about completed the Steam code but had a future release date. Lots and lots of people downloaded Steam by torrent, and Valve did nothing to stop them and prematurely killed WON as they accepted the piracy as pushing their product to an early release date. Steam at that point carried CS and TFC.

    13. Re:Really? by idontgno · · Score: 1

      And me without mod points, more's the pity.

      Well said. Your last sentence is a perfect summary to the sane approach to balancing anti-cheat and anti-pirate, and I hope this wisdom gets into the right ears.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    14. Re:Really? by RKThoadan · · Score: 1

      In terms of DRM Stardock does have Valve beat since they have none whatsoever, but Valve is still very awesome. I find it very interesting that the 2 companies with the largest digital distribution platforms have the least restrictive DRM policies.

    15. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except CD/DVD checks don't stop cheaters. They don't stop pirates, either. They only annoy legitimate owners of the game.

    16. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not the piracy, that's the anti-piracy method.

    17. Re:Really? by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment.

      That is the software maker doing that not a pirate. The pirate did not write the code for the disc check, the pirate did not add a internet connection requirement. As for the price, if a product is worth X amount to a person, they will pay for it. If it is not, they will not pay for it. Welcome to Capitalism.

    18. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That effectively eliminates such a large portion of games that you can't be much of a gamer at that point because nearly every vendor does it. With so few taking on the boycott everybody approach, will it actually impact a game vendors bottom line enough to change anything? No.

      Pirates like to glorify their crime as the perfect victimless crime and blame the origin of the pirated material every time a victim is identified. They resort to popular "stick it to the man" sentiment to gain approval amongst their peers in order to feel better about being a criminal.

      Yes game makers have been ineffective at in the face of crackers. That doesn't absolve pirates of their guilt. Why should I ONLY blame game makers? The fact that game vendors may be wrong doesn't mean pirates and crackers are right.

      I still blame pirates as much as I do the game vendors. This is their war, not mine. I shouldn't be taking fire meant for them.

    19. Re:Really? by NotBorg · · Score: 1

      If they were going without because the price was to high that would be capitalism. Taking something without paying for it because it costs to much is not capitalism.

      Piracy != capitalism.

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    20. Re:Really? by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      I download and try out lots of products both software and media (such as CDs, TV shows, movies). I also have a game collection that include more than 300 purchased games, more than 50 board games, hundreds of movies and thousands of songs on multiple formats. The argument that when someone downloads something it costs a sale is a fallacy. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of the time the person is like myself, not sure if they really want the product and not wanting to try to go through the hassle of legal product return.

      When I decide that the product I have downloaded is something I do want it ends up being purchased. Numerous studies have shown that this is indeed the most common situation. On top of that one purchase, I am much more likely to purchase related items. An example would be the Fallout series. A friend loaned me the first game years ago. I liked it and have purchased every squeal when it came out.

      Your statement that "Piracy != capitalism" is correct, but so is the statement that "piracy == lost sales."

    21. Re:Really? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      I could not understand your post over the sound of annoyed sheep. What were you saying?

    22. Re:Really? by syousef · · Score: 1

      I still blame pirates as much as I do the game vendors. This is their war, not mine. I shouldn't be taking fire meant for them.

      Hey I own thousands of dollars in games. I stopped buying them when I was finding that to play them I would still need to crack them since the copy protection was broken or restricted my use to the point where I couldn't play. The last straw was starforce, which appeared to be damaging hardware. I do not blame the pirates for such shitty copy protection. I think you've been drinking the coolaid. Pirates do not control anti-piracy measures.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    23. Re:Really? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Until I need a disk in my CD/DVD drive and/or an Internet connection for single player mode. Or until it's used as an excuse to inflate the price of entertainment.

      Pirates never caused that. That was game developers.

    24. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pfft. It's called daemon tools.

    25. Re:Really? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Rule 1 & 2 dude :)

  5. superserious by thenextstevejobs · · Score: 1

    I didn't know that saying that something was a "serious" threat didn't carry enough weight anymore. And in regards to cheating in an online game? Yeah. Hellaserious.

    --
    Long live the BSD license
    1. Re:superserious by FSWKU · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Superserious" is one step below "superserial" which is, of course, a description reserved solely for the dreaded Manbearpig. That alone should tell you how much of a threat online cheating really is. It might not threaten us all as severely as Manbearpig, but that doesn't mean it won't kill you in your sleep. The sooner we stop online cheating, the sooner we become one step closer to defeating Manbearpig....

      EXCELSIOR!

      --
      "So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
    2. Re:superserious by iamhassi · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Score:5, Funny

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    3. Re:superserious by iSzabo · · Score: 1

      I think he means with respect to the bottom line: if they want people to buy their games making them a better experience is certainly the direction to go. This is exactly what improving sales without BS (and ineffective) DRM looks like. Serious business. I'm thinking he's not being serious enough I'd have thought it to be megaserious.

    4. Re:superserious by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Mr. Gore, can't you please go back to talking about the environment instead of some loony crap?

      (OK, so I don't remember how the episode actually goes...)

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  6. Sacrificing privacy for games? by druuna · · Score: 1

    > How much privacy are you willing to sacrifice in the interests of a level playing field?

    None whatsoever! We are talking about effing games here!

    And like someone else already mentioned: This "option" can be used by everybody, hence the playing field _is_ level.

    1. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And like someone else already mentioned: This "option" can be used by everybody, hence the playing field _is_ level.

      are you serious? please pick your favorite sport/game to watch/play and let my give you an example of why you are full of it.

    2. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by druuna · · Score: 1

      > are you serious?

      Yes I am serious, actually I'm superserious.

      The "level playing field" argument the article talks about is BS. If anybody can use some option (be it morally good or bad!!!) the playing field _is_ level.

      So, yes, sacrificing privacy for a so called level playing field is stupendous to say the least.

    3. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about game options are in using in game mecanics to get an advantage.

      This is about installing software that changes the game so that for example, you will shoot automatically, and never miss (aimbot). Another example is the wallhack, which allows you to see through walls. Another classic is the "speedhack", which allows you to run 10 times faster than anyone else.

      This is about preventing third party software that gives a big advantage to players using it in multiplayer. They ruin the game for everyone playing the unmodified game on the same server.

    4. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      gah... moderation fail, posting to undo...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    5. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by druuna · · Score: 1

      > This is not about game options are in using in game mecanics to get an advantage.
      > This is about preventing third party software...

      I'm not talking about in game options alone, I'm talking about all the possible things one can do to improve (cheat if you will) your edge.

      Everybody can install third party software (be it legal to the game or not), which makes the level playing field argument none-sense.

      This is about sacrificing privacy for games, which is a bad thing. Humans will always try to cheat/find the edge, it is in their nature.

    6. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      If anybody can use some option (be it morally good or bad!!!) the playing field _is_ level.

      If everyone installs the same aimbot, why bother to play anymore?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    7. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by argent · · Score: 1

      If anybody can use some option (be it morally good or bad!!!) the playing field _is_ level.

      If everyone installs the same aimbot, why bother to play anymore?

      It's still a level playing field. An empty level playing field, perhaps, but still level. :)

    8. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by Duradin · · Score: 1

      So basically why bother with rules at all since everyone can cheat?

      Is a game still a game if it has no rules?

    9. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I asked you to post your favorite (commonly known) game/sport to play or watch and you failed miserably at it. I'm forced to assume that you have poor reading comprehension, know you are wrong about this, or simply don't understand the concept of a game.
      coolsnowmen

    10. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by druuna · · Score: 1

      > I asked you to post your favorite (commonly known) game/sport to play or watch and you failed miserably at it.

      Yes, I ignored it 'cause it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

      And it looks like I failed to make you understand my point. Not once but twice. Well, that's too bad.

    11. Re:Sacrificing privacy for games? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      And like someone else already mentioned: This "option" can be used by everybody, hence the playing field _is_ level.

      And like someone else said, the IRL "option" to murder can be used by everybody, hence there is no reason for murder to be illegal.

  7. Threat to privacy? by mxh83 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Which part of this infers a threat to privacy? You need to think of this too- The system is running Windows, which is a black box and they could be doing whatever they want and you wouldn't know about it.

    1. Re:Threat to privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Which part of this infers a threat to privacy?

      "implies"

      I imply, you infer.

    2. Re:Threat to privacy? by Hadlock · · Score: 3, Interesting

      VAC secured TF2 for Linux is platinum rated on Wine, depending on how buggy the most recent update of TF2 was (it varies widely from week to week)
       
        http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=9901
       
      But for the most part it's very playable. Looks like today it's "just" silver. Heck I've gotten it to run briefly on my netbook using Ubuntu 9.10 netbook remix with the unsupported GMA 950 and an atom processor(!). Most of the bugs listed are bugs in the windows version too (like multicore support)

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    3. Re:Threat to privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Comma splice:

      I imply, you infer.

      I imply; you infer.
       
      Corrected.

  8. The casualties of the battle are ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ... the innocent people who have been banned by VAC because of hardware failures or software bugs. Customer support staff ignore or abuse these people and won't even take the time to check their logs. They do not acknowledge the possibility of a false positive. I realize that they don't have time to investigate every complaint sent to them. But their customers deserve a better degree of service than what amounts to an instant and final termination without any evidence necessary, at the total discretion of Valve. Paying customers should not be at the mercy of those from whom they purchase goods.

    It is the 'better a guilty man go free' issue played out on a stage where contracts of adhesion reign supreme. Valve can do whatever they want. I won't buy any products from Valve again. And any recognition for taking on the noble cause of preventing cheating in online games is undeserved. Our contempt is what they ought to be given.

    1. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Face it your cheat got caught. You don't want to believe it but it was running in memory and valve found it.
      I used to run HLDM then CS then CSS servers, a bunch of them.
      I can tel you from direct experience that for every single time someone whined like you are, it turned out eventually that one of his friends would "out" him as having "just messed around" with cheats, but just once and deleted 'em and never used in in a "real" game.

      Ya, whatever, just be glad the ban isn't tied to your ip, mac address and a hardware guid of some sort and all you have to do is buy another copy.
      I would do MUCH worse if I could, perm ban for life and tattoo LOSER on your forehead in big black letters.
      Screw ya if you can't play fair, go play with the other cheaters.

    2. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 2, Informative

      On the flip side, how many of these "bugs" are due to cheaters trying to weasel their way back into VAC servers?

      There's sadly no way to know for sure, really, except for maybe people you know IRL.

    3. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by phoenix321 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Hardware failures and software bugs."

      What hardware "failure" looks like a wire grid and wallhack on screenshots? And why should I as a server admin care if you unknowingly or willfully used this bug?

      What software "bugs" will have a detection signature like the latest aimbot? Which software bug will produce a registry entry and ..\system32-fallout like a wallhack?

      We know how likely an md5 hash collision is with hack X and legitimate program Y. Not very. With an increasing number of wallhacks and legitimate programs, we will see hash collisions sooner or later, but I'm not really convinced unless you have dozens of very very rare but innocent programs on your system that no one else has AND anyone else having them is also banned.

      Think of the online arena like a dance club: you paid for entry and yet the bouncers can throw you out at the first hint of trouble. And all other guests are cheering and complimenting them for doing so. A few dimwits, idjits and griefers can just cause so much fallout in such a short time that even drastic and unwarranted measures are usually applauded by the audience.

      Face it: bouncers and anti-cheat admins don't have the resources to assess every single case pondering over preponderance of evidence. It would twentyfold the cost of operating a dance club or game server and most customers are not willing not pay for a Constitution-class jury system.

      If the choice is having "1 collateral damage for 50 cheaters banned" or "0 collateral damage for 25 cheaters banned" - or a huge increase in paralegal costs for the server admin, I will opt for the collateral damage. War is not fair anyway.

    4. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by Draek · · Score: 1

      Got any evidence for your claims? because I've yet to hear of such a case from any of the people I regularly play with on any VAC-enabled game I own. Punkbuster, yeah, they kick you out for the stupidest reasons (I believe until recently it detected ATI's Control Center as a 'cheat', and still does for the Steam Overlay), but it's a) just a kick, not a ban, and b) not VAC and therefore not Valve's responsability.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    5. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Got any evidence for your claims? because I've yet to hear of such a case from any of the people I regularly play with on any VAC-enabled game I own.

      My experiences are the same. I have yet to see anyone I know VAC-banned, even the people who I don't like and think should be banned from the game servers I play on.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    6. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the choice is having "1 collateral damage for 50 cheaters banned" or "0 collateral damage for 25 cheaters banned" - or a huge increase in paralegal costs for the server admin, I will opt for the collateral damage. War is not fair anyway.

      Yes, until one of those collateral damages sues for being denied a service he paid for without being in breach of license. You know, tribunals generally dislike casualties, unlike wars.

    7. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by twidarkling · · Score: 1

      Except that Valve's servers are free. And there's still other options (such as non-VAC servers), so there's less than no case.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    8. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Imagine the bouncers throw you out of the dance club you paid entry fees for.

      10-15 bucks are possibly lost now.

      Dare to sue?

    9. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by atamido · · Score: 1

      We know how likely an md5 hash collision is with hack X and legitimate program Y. Not very. With an increasing number of wallhacks and legitimate programs, we will see hash collisions sooner or later

      The hash space is large enough that you will never see an accidental collision. It's the on purpose collision you have to worry about. What happens when someone creates a hack binary with an identical hash to the game.exe? Company accidentally flags all users with the legitimate file?

    10. Re:The casualties of the battle are ... by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      In that case, calculate SHA-512, SHA_256, MD5, MD4 and CRC32 and match them.

      If hackers manage to produce a purposeful collision of two bitwise different files with the same checksums for 6 checksum algorithms, they are ready for Nobel and DARPA prize money ;)

  9. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  10. Trust Nothing by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So, here's my crazy (OR IS IT?) idea to fix this problem. The reason things like aimbots work at all is because the server tells the client "this player's avatar is in such-and-such position"; for the good reason of, once your computer knows where someone is, it can draw them on the screen... but it's that same data that the aimbot uses to know precisely where to point.

    So the crazy idea is this: don't tell the client systems where the avatars are located. Maybe your system says "I'm here, looking this way", and all you get back is a bunch of data for drawing textured triangles. Triangles might be part of another player's avatar, or a wall, or who knows what; but your system doesn't know of what it is either, so there's nothing for an aimbot to go on to do its thing. It's more data, and more work for the server, but maybe it's not TOO MUCH more data or work for the server, and it'd be cheat-free.

    (Unless you write some spiffy image recognition software, but hey, at least we get some advances in AI out of the deal that way...)

    --
    Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    1. Re:Trust Nothing by Razalhague · · Score: 1

      1. Locate triangle with face texture
      2. Aim
      3. Fire

    2. Re:Trust Nothing by PatrickThomson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody who works in the games industry has ever thought of your idea, tested it, and realised that it's an unfeasible proposal. Because valve don't read slashdot, they'll miss your comment and this groundbreaking new proposal to solve the problem of in-game cheating, which they took seriously enough to INVENT VAC. They certainly wouldn't already implement something very similar that simply neglects to transmit a player's location unless you have a line of sight. That's totally something they aren't already doing, and haven't been for several years, nay, almost a decade.

      As for your second point, that's why VAC monitors the entire computer, and not just the game's binary. There are a family of aimbots that jiggle your cursor until it's over a "I'm a head" texture - so your circle of aim for an accurate headshot needs to just be within 100 pixels of any given face. These ones basically sit in memory, monitor the graphics drivers and tweak the mouse. Hence, such draconian methods to detect them *without false positives*.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    3. Re:Trust Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't a bad idea, but there is a reason why no has done that - bandwidth. What you are suggesting would be sending the 3D view of each person to and from the server, with the server processing a HUGE amount of data. I've seen GRAW2 max out a 25/2 MBit connection with only 16 players, and thats doing it the standard way with positional data. You are also forgetting that it isn't JUST positions of people and which way they face. You also have data for every bullet, grenade, explosion radius, and with some games damage/demolition to the environment, and need this updated in real time, when connections can have response times of half a second. Perhaps not a problem on a lan, but with people in different countries? That's a completely different ball game.

      I don't believe this would not be feasible with current technology. But with rising internet speeds and computing power, it could happen soon. Mind you, increasing computing power and moving all calculations to the server means your computer now has a lot of free processor time to run your imaging hack

    4. Re:Trust Nothing by Datamonstar · · Score: 1

      You forgot

      4. Boom! Headshot!

      --
      The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
    5. Re:Trust Nothing by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is completely unworkable: it massively increases the amount of data that needs to be passed between client and server, and the amount of work the server must do, and makes movement far more pause-filled. If we were all on gigabit Ethernet on a local network, and all had top-of-the-line game machines, it might be workable. But not for reasonable hardware and modest network connections.

      Also, certain triangles would be pretty recognizably face images.

    6. Re:Trust Nothing by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      you can just avoid sending the position of not visible players, but the problem is that _as soon_ as one is visible the aimbot will kill him all the same. also another problem is that in "somewhat geared toward realism" games as modern warfare (seriously kids, famas&m16 are not 3 round burst only) you have to give position away to allow for bullet penetrations. and then you still have to send sound effects, which give away your position to a potential aimbot/wallhack.

      Good point, but it would be a start to improve things. Let's discuss it in more detail:

      1) Why not do bullet/target collision detection on the server? That way, you don't need to transmit the position of not visible players to the other clients. Instead, someone shooting through a wall would do so blindly even if he has installed a wallhack, and the server would decide if he hit someone.

      2) The sound effects could be somewhat distorted to prevent calculating the position of the other player from the sound. If there is no clear line of sight between both players, that may even be more realistic than unmodified sound.
      A simple version (at the expense of losing some realism): Transmit sound from other avatars in monaural mode, that way there is no directional information in the signal.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    7. Re:Trust Nothing by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      You could do the entire graphics processing server-side with only a video stream transferred to the client. This is less bandwidth-intensive than outsourcing the things that travel the PCIe bus on a traditional gaming system.

      The cloud-gaming start-ups are trying to do precisely that, BTW,

      And you would still have the problem of client-side programs looking for patterns in the image, which would cause cheaters insane amounts of work to continue their deeds.

      This will work wonders in realistic shooters where people usually are behind cover heads down or shot at in an instant even without other people cheating.

      At realistic distances for rifle engagements, the "I'm a head" texture in these cases is only half a pixel wide, so pattern detection will have no chance of determining it. The rest of the avatar texture is only a few pixels wide and camouflaged - a pattern matching is going to be hard and if it succeeds straight to DARPA price money.

      With avatars behind covers or inside buildings, there's nothing to draw at all, so the client will never know someone is there until they actually try to shoot through the wall.

      With server-side processing, no avatar can turn around faster than a human could command, so no insta-turns when someone creeps up the cheater's sniping position.

      A client-side pattern matching algorithm can still help, but not by a huge amount. Since the aimbot cannot aim faster than a human could with server-side processing, it would just mimic a very quick shooter and not help anything at all in enemy prediction and tactics. When your opponent has enough time to aim, you're doing it wrong anyway.

    8. Re:Trust Nothing by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      It is crazy and it won't fly. The amount of data in a single screenshot, at the resolutions that gamers are accustomed to (even original CS Source) is more than the info transfered to and from the server regularly, by at least 1 or 2 orders of magnitude.

      If you are expecting 30 FPS (as most FPS gamers do) and a typical Screenshot being about 1 megabyte in size (or 8 Megabits) means you need 240 Megabit download speed.

      My current ISP offers me up to 10.

    9. Re:Trust Nothing by Demonspawn · · Score: 1

      A simple version (at the expense of losing some realism): Transmit sound from other avatars in monaural mode, that way there is no directional information in the signal.

      Oh dear god no. There's a reason I use 5.1-channel headphones, and the reason IS to get directional information based on sound location!

      2) The sound effects could be somewhat distorted to prevent calculating the position of the other player from the sound. If there is no clear line of sight between both players, that may even be more realistic than unmodified sound.

      WTB SoundPhysics card upgrade ;) I wouldn't have a problem with this solution.

  11. Reputation systems to the rescue by hweimer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Cheating is a social problem, not a technical problem. Technical solutions for social problems usually do not work. However, we have fixed this problem already with various other online activities, where people even regularly spend real money to buy something from complete strangers. Reputation systems like eBay and Amazon use seem to work quite well, but then of course you can no longer blame the cheaters for poor sales.

    --
    OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
    1. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by PatrickThomson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are a class of problems that can most easily be solved by fundamental changes in human behaviour. This will never happen, unfortunately.

      http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    2. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by xtracto · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think it will be very easy to implement the possibility of tagging a player as "cheater" after the game ends (when you have the list of players with their game scores). Each "cheater" tag would increase your "cheater counter" and players could decide to play with other players whose "cheater counter" is below a certain level.

      Of course if you are really *that good* you may get pissed when a lot of crybabies tag you as a cheater haha.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    3. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Radtoo · · Score: 1

      Not the same. Whether you are too risk averse or not to deal with a "slightly badly rated" person or worse is a decision that only affects you on Amazon or eBay.

      However, gamers come in groups. Groups of friends, groups of people on a server etc. ... This is making things much more difficult. Besides that people will be extremely inconsistent in actually giving other people negative reputation (plays too bad, plays too well, has too high a voice, talks too much, doesn't seem focused enough...), they also may game the system as groups (giving each other good reputation and undesirables bad reputation), have many identities, and more. And if one person gets banned, all of his friends and their friends may leave the game.

      I'm pretty sure if you go that way, its not going to be represented well in the financial bottom line.You pretty much need an unbiased technical supervisor to combat cheating...

    4. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Eremotherium · · Score: 1

      With ebay rep systems might work, but do a quick google on sims mafia you can see how these systems can have a major backlash if they're not thought through.

    5. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with this is that it will penalize players who are legitimately really good. There are always whiny kids who will mark you down because you owned them. Indeed, I think that kind of player might actually out number the cowards that cheat.

    6. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Cheating is a social problem, not a technical problem."

      I always wondered why they didn't do a statistical analysis of human input by looking and comparing demos. Maybe uploading demos to a central server for analysis would be a good thing, then you can ban the cheaters accounts.

    7. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by ud+plasmo · · Score: 1

      A+++ Player. Highly recommended. Will play again!!

      --
      Norris Normal - Who am I?
    8. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rubbish. In real life, cheating gets you a punch in the face. That's a technical solution, and it works. Wallhacks in real life are prevented by God's awesome physics engine. That's another technical solution, and it works. Combine the two: smash cheaters faces through the nearest wall. Fridays is poker night.

    9. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      One could argue for eBay that sniping is cheating, or at least close to it. You can't snipe at a traditional auction AFAIK.... well you could but there would be more of an opportunity for someone else to bid..

    10. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Asclepius99 · · Score: 1

      they also may game the system as groups (giving each other good reputation and undesirables bad reputation)

      This is seems like something that would be extremely likely in games where people join clans/guilds/etc. Clan war breaks out? Give bad reviews to anyone displaying the other clan's tag. Plus the same thing could happen anyone that just doesn't get along with a clan member. And if the clan agreed to give each other 100% ratings after every game they played together, belonging in a clan might even turn out to raise your rating enough that you never have to worry about your behavior.

      Then besides the whole group mentality, there's the game that these games are much more antagonistic than Amazon/eBay. When you're buying something you and the shop both have a mutual goal. You want something and they want you to pay them for it. There's little odds that a normal sale is going to result in negative attitudes on either side. You're only likely to get annoyed with a seller/buyer if there's a problem. A game in which you work against each other is much more likely to bring out bad feelings towards each other even if both play properly. Also if a member of the team feels like another player isn't pulling his weight, they might hold a grudge and give them negative feedback. You wouldn't want to end up getting labelled as someone not to play with just because you're new.

    11. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by brkello · · Score: 1

      Partially, I guess. A lot of cheating is a technical problem due to bugs or poor game design. These can have technical solutions. Cheaters themselves are just a certain class of people who either want to get ahead by any means possible, or who enjoy other people suffering. They also are a class of people who suffer from the Internet asshole effect. Their negative actions don't have any severe consequences. Just like on Internet forums, if they did the stuff they did in public, they would get the living crap beaten out of them and learn not to do it.

      eBay and Amazon are completely different. There are real world consequences (eventually) when your screw around there. Reputation systems work there since there is money involved. It works less well in games because there is no penalty for people to rate you down if they don't like you or if they are better than them. Back in the day, I played a lot of CS. I was banned from so many servers for "cheating". I didn't cheat, I just played FPS competitively in college so I had a bit more skill than most. I imagine I would have a horrible reputation despite being someone who would never cheat.

      And I don't really get where you are talking about people blaming cheaters on poor sales. Valve sells games just fine. They know their customers want to play a game as free of cheats as possible. Nothing is wrong with that...in fact, it is great for the consumer that they are concerned with cheating.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    12. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To add to it from a user perspective...

      It is given that a small but significant amount of people in the things they do, including gaming.

      This is why we often have friends with whom we interact. When I don't want to play with cheaters, I just play with trusted people only.

      When I play on public servers, which is often, I am willing to accept that some people will cheat (that said, I'm not likely to add them to my friend list).

      Cutting down on cheating can easily be enforced by users.

    13. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by gknoy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course if you are really *that good* you may get pissed when a lot of crybabies tag you as a cheater haha.

      This is a very real problem.

      When I used to play CounterStrike, I played nearly all the time on a server that was run as a demonstration of Qualcomm's CDMA wireless technology. (I plug them because it was hands-down the best server I ever played on.) I was probably only an average player, but was a bit below average on that server. There were about a dozen players (who were regulars) whose skill felt orders of magnitude better than mine. They would go several rounds without dying, and often rack up impressive kill:death ratios. I would often spectate them (after death or even for a whole round) so that I could learn what they did better than me, what mistakes they avoided, etc. They weren't cheaters. (or if they were, their cheats made lots of mistakes, and weren't reliably accurate ;))

      Fairly frequently, some new (to the server) players would get beaten repeatedly, so soundly that they would accuse the person of cheating. I assert that it's human nature for people to want to believe that an opponent is a cheater, rather than simply that they are better than we are. There was even one evening where I was accused of cheating ... which was amusing because normally my scores were mediocre, but I had just had three rounds of never-before and never-since seen luck. (The CS_Rio gods were with me, I guess.) *I* know I wasn't cheating. :)

      As a player, I want to play on a server with people who are just a bit better than me, that I can learn from and that challenge me to improve. I would not enjoy playing on a server with a cheater, and nor would I enjoy playing on servers where players are just So Much Better than me that I am no threat to them.

    14. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by atamido · · Score: 1

      There are a class of problems that can most easily be solved by fundamental changes in human behaviour. This will never happen, unfortunately.

      Last weekend I was playing Left 4 Dead 2 online with random strangers. We'd completed one portion, and were getting weapons and healing ourselves to go through the final section. All of a sudden one of the players starts shooting another one, causing damage he wouldn't be able to repair before the final attempt. We all asked why he was doing that, and his answer was, "I have to leave now, so why not." There is something seriously wrong with people.

      If I had a button on my keyboard that could have delivered a swift kick to the groin to anyone I wanted on the internet, I think would have used it.

      I would like a reputation/matching system though for these games, similar to how music stations can predict if you will like a new piece of music. Just some way to say, "I like playing with this guy, but I don't like playing with that other guy." Then other people that liked/disliked some the same players could be used as a reference point for other people I might like to play with. I can't imagine it would be difficult to do.

    15. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by atamido · · Score: 1

      No need to use actual rankings, just use like/dislike relationships. Online radio stations use it to predict if you will like new music. You mark people you like and dislike. The system finds other people with similar tastes and uses their result to create a list of other people you might like to play with. Then, if the data shows that the other person likes to play with people like you, you get matched up.

      This resolves "negative reviews" because there isn't any sort of negative karma. You simply won't be matched up with people like the ones that gave you negative reviews.

    16. Re:Reputation systems to the rescue by duguk · · Score: 1

      Cheating is a social problem, not a technical problem. Technical solutions for social problems usually do not work. However, we have fixed this problem already with various other online activities, where people even regularly spend real money to buy something from complete strangers. Reputation systems like eBay and Amazon use seem to work quite well, but then of course you can no longer blame the cheaters for poor sales.

      Doesn't this "rate your player and we'll favour playing against those"/"hate this guy and you'll never play him again" -- already exist on XBox Live?

  12. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  13. Total, utter gobshitery by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    If they're so super-serial about cheating, why oh why oh why do they keep developing games with vulnerabilities designed in?

    Whack-a-hack is always a losing prospect. If you trust the client, then you're boned. There are far more people with far more incentive trying to pop your cheat cherry than you've got available to protect your virtue. Your best case scenario is that you make a profit before your game is totally owned.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:Total, utter gobshitery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, as if there weren't mechanisms that do not trust the client already. I don't know for PB or VAC, but the anticheating system for a game I play reads the hash of the program, validates it remotely, attaches itself as a debugger to the game and encrypts the network stream from and to the server. However, it still got broken with relative ease as soon as somebody bothered to disassembly the security system, understand the game mechanism and replace the validation bit with "return KNOWN_GOOD_VALUE".

      We're working then on a new generation of the security client that attempts to validate itself by downloading a validator every time it is run. The validator would read the signature of the anticheating system, fudge with it (every time differently and hopefully unpredictably) and send the result of the computation to the server for validation. If the validation fails, your client isn't allowed to connect to the lobby and the servers.

      Yet, since this happens on C#, it is (theoretically) possible to intercept the call to the .NET signature reading function and replace it with "return KNOWN_GOOD_VALUE".

      And we aren't even beginning to consider driver-level hacks.

      You just can't win the war vs. cheating, you just have to hope cheating takes enough effort to put off enough people. (That is why I'm refraining to make names.)

    2. Re:Total, utter gobshitery by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      Because games run alot better when more work is doen client side. Try doing hitbox detection on the server, and people complain about the lag. Do it on the client and 99% of people have a great time, and 1% get an aimbot.

    3. Re:Total, utter gobshitery by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Well, duh. So cheating is not a serious issue, which is actually consistent with Valve playing whack-a-hack in the wild.

      Please note the title of my post: what I'm calling Valve on is the inconsistency between their actions (vulnerable designs) and their words (ZOMG cheating > piracy). Gobshites.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    4. Re:Total, utter gobshitery by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that Valve already does Hitbox Detection on the server. However, some of their games do lag adjustment based on your ping times (which is why in TF2 you ocassionally see headshots around corners).

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  14. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  15. 2 Main Problems with VAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are two big problems with VAC over PunkBuster

    1) All power resides specifically with VAC. There are no tools for the server admin to make things like md5 or cvar checks, no screenshot facility to check players, or even the ability to kick a player. As such, you HAVE to rely on VAC doing all the work, and you as a server admin have nothing to say about it. If you see a cheater that VAC is failing to catch, your outta luck.

    2) VAC gives no information as to what it is doing. You never see a player being kicked due to VAC detection, so you have no idea what VAC is actually doing. Is it truly detecting anything, and if so, how would you know? With PunkBuster, it gives you kick messages which if not displayed on the screen, are at least logged in the server and client logs.

    No accountability is never a good thing.

    1. Re:2 Main Problems with VAC by 0232793 · · Score: 1

      1) There are cvar checks - when I cheat some server-side plugins kick me for cvar changes, at least in TF2. One funny plugin lies and says "VAC ban detected" lol. 2) Read the VAC forums - it is possible, through rare because of delayed bans. Visit the vac forums or cheating sites. Some sites hide the fact that they are detected. Enhancedaim, artificial aiming, private hax, etc. are all open and honest about being detected.

    2. Re:2 Main Problems with VAC by theotherbastard · · Score: 1

      There are other options that individual server admins can leverage. I run a TF2 server that uses SourceMod with SourceBans to handle bans for our server. If any of my admins see a cheater and can verify by spec'ing, we ban them from our server. There's even options for non-admin players to initiate short term bans if enough people are complaining.

      We're also protected by VAC but this gives us our own layer of protection. It's also handy because it allows us to rid ourselves of griefers who would never be caught by VAC but can empty out a full server just as quickly as a cheater.

      --
      Buttons aren't toys.
    3. Re:2 Main Problems with VAC by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      There are no tools for the server admin to make things like md5 or cvar checks

      MD5 checks are built into the game. This is controlled through the sv_pure cvar and the pure_server_whitelist.txt file (when sv_pure 1 is set, this file is used to determine which files the client can use that don't match the files on the server).

      As for cvars, some are already checked and disallowed (anything marked as a cheat in the game).

      Also, the Sourcemod plugin "Kigen's Anti-Cheat" has more rigorous cvar checks.

      no screenshot facility to check players

      Spectate, left or right-click until you find the problem player, then hit F5 to take screenshots (at least in TF2). Or even better, spectate and use the client-side record command to record a demo, which you can later play back. I believe SourceTV can be used to record demos automatically, but I don't think it records one for each player.

      or even the ability to kick a player

      OK, now you're just being ignorant. Source servers have built-in commands to kick and ban people through either the server console or through the game using the RCON commands (which require a password that you set in the main server configuration).

      This is in addition to addons such as Sourcemod, which include kick and ban abilities for any users matching specific Steam IDs, and the optional Sourcebans module, which allows bans to be synchronized between servers.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  16. Maybe a bit too zealous by moniker127 · · Score: 1

    A while back, my account was hacked. I've no idea how they got access to it, but it was shortly after i downloaded some indie game that was kinda like tron. Anyway, i contacted valve support, had them reset my password. But when i got back into my account, it was vac banned, meaning i couldnt play anything online. I asked valve to undo this, and they metaphorically flipped me off.

  17. Re:Warfare and gaming is automated, no going back by DragonTHC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    WTF are you smoking?

    You are apparently living in cheaterland, where you have no hand-eye coordination and you rely on software to play for you.

    None of modern existance is automated. You are just trying to rationalize your cheating. Epic FAIL!

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  18. Re:Warfare and gaming is automated, no going back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thread you want is here.

  19. Cheating is worst for the cheaters. by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

    Seriously, i can live with cheaters ruining my game. First of all, i alway look at cheaters with pity and not hate. I feel sad for the sorry bastards as i blast them to pieces without any cheats whatsoever. Cheating in a game is like faking your own orgasm as you pound your meat because nobody wants you.

    I think its the wrong approach trying to stop people from cheating. Probably better to put effort and energy into finding cheaters like poker sites do by behavioral and statistical analysis.

    Put a warning up on people who look like cheaters and let people know their statistics are inhuman. That way people can just /ignore cheaters and their appearance in games wont be such a bother. If i know an extensive review thinks someone is a cheater its much easier to accept that idiot sniping me with a gun from mid-air three miles away.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  20. Cheats do spoil the game by horza · · Score: 1

    The only real way to enjoy the game is to join a dedicated server where the admin is online and can kickban the player. As a poster mentioned above, it's pretty easy to confirm a cheat by spectating their pov. Unfortunately votekick rarely works, even with a really bad cheat there are too many that won't bother.

    Phillip.

  21. Speaking for the Counter-Strike community, VAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am an admin in one of the larger gaming communities in my country, and have a history of competitive gaming. I was never a gamer before I saw the teamplay in CS 5on5 matches (example video). I still play the orginal game once a week or so. Just for the record, CS is a team-game where aiming and firing is only part of the skill. Knowing and practicing with your team is essential just like any other sport.

    If you didn't already know, Counter-Strike (CS) is still one of the largest on-line games out there, peaking 75k users yesterday. I'm talking about the version 1.6 and not the CSS (CS Source) version. There is still a larger userbase for other Steam-games, but we still regard the original CS to be the game played by the eSports community because of its smooth gameplay and predictable recoil patterns when firing guns. Many "elite"-players have tried moving on to newer games, but get disappointed and still comes back for the good old CS 1.6 where graphics may suck, but you get a predictable gameplay where the player is not that much affected by randomness.

    The story of cheating in CS has been a long annoying trip. People have even been cheating at LAN-events where they used aim-key, and they even won price money and got away with it. The story is long, and websites profiting from selling cheats are very active today. Some of the cheats go very deep in kernel and hide itself just like a root-kit. Ring 0-cheats are common.

    VAC (Valve Anti Cheat) has been the attempts from Valve to stop the cheats, however VAC has always been ages behind any new cheat and has never taken all cheats available for free at the net. There has been attempts from the community at steampowered to scare users with passive detections and delayed bans so users could not be sure which cheat got them banned, but mainly VAC seem to me being a low priority project at Valve. Valve is still, like any other company, prioritizing new projects and just leaving maybe one programmer doing some cheat-detection-code on his free-time. The situation is a win for cheaters and others. And also a win for Valve, since there are a lot of people trying cheats and thus they sometimes get banned, ending up buying a new copy of the game (the price for a new CS at Steam is currently available at 7,99€ which is annoyingly cheap). Valve still sells a lot of copies (in the years 1999-2008, Valve had sold 4,8 million copies!).

    Various anti-cheat communities has gathered during the years, where one try syncing ban-lists and communities constantly have players monitoring other players trying to spot cheats by spectating. As VAC is such a failure, many still go undetected. Especially if one hides their cheats well. The community RADAR is one of these initiatives which accept new communities for sharing such ban-list.

    The latest addition; Easy Anti Cheat (EAC) is a project created by a skilled programmer that is based upon deep-level detection accompanied with screenshots. This programmer may seem hard-core, and this is mainly because he used to be a cheat author(!). This is currently the best anti-cheat system available for CS, but it's still only used in Clan Wars/eSports. The public-area for normal players is still depending upon VAC, as the EAC requires a 3rd party client installed which is a tough barrier to overcome.

    The future now seem brighter, as we have now left VAC and we are mainly no longer depending on it. I wish Valve software good luck in the future, but it seem to me that if VAC remains a low-priority project it will still annoy thousands of everyday players and leaving a few cheaters laughing, destroying the on-line experience.

    Yours

    1. Re:Speaking for the Counter-Strike community, VAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am fascinated by your use of bold characters and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

    2. Re:Speaking for the Counter-Strike community, VAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I the only one who saw this and thought "astroturfing"?

    3. Re:Speaking for the Counter-Strike community, VAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in the civilized world, we like to play new games. I wish you the best of luck playing your old shit ware with your countrymen. P.S. The rest of the world has learned to shower, try it.

  22. Cheating is enabled by the engine by Wormfoud · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cheats such as Aimbots, Bunny-Hopping and Speed-hack are fairly obvious and easy to detect. The results of such cheats are visible within the game. Other cheats, such as Wall-hacks and Radar-hacks, are more difficult to discern and can only be detected by observing player actions over time. Such cheats, however, are enabled by the game engine itself. The engine provides the data of what is behind the wall, or what are all the player positions to each client. In normal mode, the game does not present this information to the player. The cheats utilize the available data and presents it to the player providing them an unfair advantage. If the engine did not provide this information to the end-client PC, these cheats would not be able to work. The engine needs to be designed so that this "extra" information is not made available to the end-player.

    1. Re:Cheating is enabled by the engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, since there would be less information transferred to the player there would be less utilization of bandwidth. However, this solution becomes computationally intensive on the server side. The server would have to maintain a visibility and interaction domain individually for each player. The player's PC at this point becomes nothing more than a "dumb" terminal displaying the graphics as provided by the server. Such a scenario puts the processing requirements squarely on the server, but allows lower-end PCs to play as well as higher-end PCs. Lag only exists if the server is not up to the challenge.

    2. Re:Cheating is enabled by the engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you "really" understand what is going on here?
      Learn about the old school process of lighting a map and VIS'ing a map. Maps are processed into b-tree's/lists where everything that is potentially visible is precomputed for a particular spot in the map. This aids the rendering process so only the brushes/polygons have to be processed and z sorted for things not totally occluded. That is fine for rendering, but for SOUND the map is processed into a "potentially hearable set" or PHS.

      If the server didn't tell you the player was behind the wall (and making foot step sounds, reloading sounds, FIRING sounds) then you would be totally surprised to see them when you entered the room and the game would not be very realistic at all.

      The cheats are leveraging this, and not much you are gonna do to defeat the "wall hacks" as a result.

    3. Re:Cheating is enabled by the engine by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The engine needs to be designed so that this "extra" information is not made available to the end-player.

      Latency requirements for this are such that it is infeasible for any kind of Internet connectivity. To put it very simple, consider a ping of 100ms (generally considered okay to play). Think about how far can the player move or turn in 100ms, and how much of the screen would need to be redrawn from world data not used before. That's how much "flicker" you'd get (since the client won't be able to redraw until it gets that information from the server).

      Games have to interpolate things on the client to show a smooth picture, but that necessitates passing enough data that they can do so in the face of reasonable network latency.

  23. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

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  24. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

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  25. On-live by wjousts · · Score: 1

    As much as I think On-Live is doomed to failure, one positive point it has going for it is that I think it'll be damn near impossible to cheat. Since the only thing being sent to your computer is pre-rendered video and all the in-game calculations are done on their servers you couldn't do a wall hack or similar. I guess the only part you might be able to cheat on is the input from the controller (maybe a hack to press buttons faster than is humanly possible), but I can't imagine that would give you that much advantage. I guess an aim-bot might still be doable.

    1. Re:On-live by Raptor851 · · Score: 1

      screen-scraper aimbots, they've existed before and if onlive isn't just the world biggest April fools joke (which i still think it is) they will exist again.

  26. Free-riders build market share by argent · · Score: 1

    When you're in a situation where network effects are important (eg, people playing your game makes people want to play it because they have more people to play with, or people using your office software means that your file formats are more commonly used) free-riders increase the value of your product. This is a well known and understood effect that many companies have taken advantage of. Until you're in such a dominant position that network effects effectively make your product non-optional (like you-know-who) heavy copy protection is counterproductive.

  27. dbags... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    people that cheat are douchebags that completely miss the point of competitive gaming.
    they are the equivalent of a troll on a forum.

    My clan won't play MW2 because there are no private servers.

  28. Re:Warfare and gaming is automated, no going back by ErikZ · · Score: 1

    "None of modern existance is automated."

    Is this a joke? Why do you think we even have the word "Automation"? It's because we automate a LOT of stuff. Right off the bat I can think of the computer control system for your car.

    --
    Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
  29. Once again valve =fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once again I find myself writing about this subject from an insider point of view.

    Valves closed methods simply don't work against cheaters. Not only do they use the lie that they delay bans in order to catch more cheaters but there simply are no tools for server admins to control the environment of their servers that they pay good money for. Valve doesn't delay their kicks and bans because it is a strategy. They do it because they don't take cheat research and generating the detection seriously enough. Not being staff there I can't however comment on exactly how many staff are doing detection work but it's obviously not enough. There are public cheats around that have been openly used for months now and they still go undetected. Valve has never had the ability to even deal with the pay to cheat sites let alone what are considered private cheats. No one at valve can say they are on top of it as this is simply not true. PunkBuster by EvenBalance on the other hand, can claim significant success there.

    Punkbuster is far better at cheat detection and their suite of tools gives admins control over the extended abilities to tailor who they keep off their server. They're violations come usually within a week and their global guid bans very often include so called private pay cheats, something Valve has never had ability to deal with. Just look at this site that reports EvenBalance hitting these pay cheats. http://BustedPunks.com I see tens of thousands getting whacked. Some pay sites have shut down. Valve has never been able to make this claim. For years I have tracked EvenBalance and Valve. Valve is certainly PB's poor amateur cousin by comparison.

    Then to top it all off there is a solid game server admin community behind PB. Not as and advert but because I'm part of this community for many years and so I know it well. I will give you an example; The professionals at http://PunksBusted.com ( known commonly as PsB). This allows game server admins to join a united front to keep cheating PB player guids off all member servers. Cheat on one server and the guid is banned on all member servers. PsB is using a complex system to generate a common Master Ban List (MBL) derived from PB violations, Screen Shots and MD5 checks etc. Thisl ist goes out automatically to all the game servers. Among the league and admin communities PsB is the gold standard for keeping their matches significantly more clean of cheats than any other methods out there. There are amateur run anti-cheat sites around, but PsB was the first and the largest one that has always set the standards these others simply follow. PsB's system is not just a ban list and goes far deeper along with automated correction system, appeal system, admin support, player searches etc., etc. Valve? What has Valve got. Valve has nothing compared to the level of organization the PB using game server community has available to it and yes things like PsB's MBL is very accurate as the admins using it will confirm. I haven't even scratched the surface on how extensive this is or the benefits it offers compared to Valve. There is one thing that every game admin that is familiar with PsB knows. You get a much cleaner game when playing on a PsB streaming server than any server using valve's half assed attempt.

    For all the faults that cheat detection can be accused of. PB is far superior and successful by miles compared to Valve. Anyone above the casual player knows PB is miles ahead and a PB servers also using PsB's system jumps a step above that. Oh and PsB will soon be even better. Expect an unmatched jump in abilities from PsB very soon. They are in major rewrite closed beta of their systems at the time of this writing. It is so advanced and secure it will make all the amateur anti-cheat sites efforts obsolete. What has Valve done in all these years being a closed under supported effort? To me and many game server admins, that answer is easy.

  30. Re:Warfare and gaming is automated, no going back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TL;DR: I am wrong.

  31. Not infecting my system(s) with Steam. by Chas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No thank you.

    I don't cheat.

    But I also don't want programs running arbitrary deep-level scans on my system and phoning home either.
    ESPECIALLY since I can't see the data.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Not infecting my system(s) with Steam. by A.+B3ttik · · Score: 1

      But I also don't want programs running arbitrary deep-level scans on my system and phoning home either. ESPECIALLY since I can't see the data.

      So you don't run Antivirus?

    2. Re:Not infecting my system(s) with Steam. by Chas · · Score: 1

      An AV doesn't phone home unless you tell it to.
      Moreover, you can see a copy of what it's sending.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  32. oh wait. Valve time travels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In one breath Mr. Cook says: "Cheating is more of a serious threat than piracy.” The problem first showed up on the company’s radar in 2004, after it heard rumors that a cheater had devised a way to see through walls."
    But later he says "In total, more than 20 000 cheaters have been blocked since 2002"
    I'm impressed Mr. Cook that you claim Valve caught cheaters before you even state you knew about them, or even better before Valve even existed. So what is it 2004 or 2002?

    If anyone looks PB has globally banned over 20,000 pay for cheat type cheater in just over a year and really made a dint so there are thousands of less scum still buying cheats. They are finding paying money doesn't protect them and better than public cheats and some cheat sellers have shut down. That has a lot bigger Wow factor than Valve's effort. I don't think Mr. Cook is getting much out of his 16 engineers. Quote: "Once code is suspected, it’s turned into an incident report, which is analyzed by Cook’s team of 16 engineers." Sorry but Phhfffft.

    I've been doing anti cheat work since the mid 90's long before EvenBalance and Valve. I'm not impressed with Valve. But then what do I know, I'm just one guy and have only contributed my time and efforts longer than any of them. But I put my money 10:1 on PB not Valve. To me it is clear that they spend far more effort on PR than anti cheat work.

  33. you guys missed this opportunity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Cheaters? In mah TF2?!"

    (is it more likely then I think?)

  34. "Trusted Computing Platform"? by Animats · · Score: 1

    First, what happened to the "Trusted Computing Platform" concept, or what Microsoft called "Palladium"? That was a signing system that was supposed to allow an application to be sure that the layers below it were stock. Any funny stuff happening during the boot process or at the lower levels would invalidate the signature. Allowing some game company low-level access to a general purpose machine is just wrong. Games shouldn't even need administrator privileges.

    As for the cheating front generally, it should be feasible to build an aimbot which only needs the video as input. Just get the cursor in about the right place, and the aimbot does the fine adjustment. (That's how some real-world weapons work, of course.) Also, a cheat program which runs on a separate computer, observing the data stream from the computer running the game, has potential. Neither of those is detectable.

  35. Steam, VAC, what's that? by Jorl17 · · Score: 1

    Back in the day, Steam was fun. I remember coming home to my 56kbps connection happy to see that Steam1 screen greeting me to play. Now it's just a piece of dumbshit which has to be updated every 67th second. Fuck them. I've learned to deeply hate steam because of their constant updating, bringing slower and slower responsiveness.
    Heck, from what I can see, they have to fit the needs of the game developers. If that were a real company with real ethics, then they would force the fuckface developers (yes, they TOO are the root of this evil) to use what they can. Yes, it would be like vendor-lock-in. But at least other users wouldn't be dumped.

    I find it amazing that so many idiots use Steam, knowing that it can, all of a sudden, dump an existing platform (remember the Windows98 issue? BOOOHOO).

    Now, you pro-steam bastards, mod me down.

    On the topic: VAC is crap; I remember when just changing one or two .text bytes did the trick to get undetectable hacks to go through the "Holly" VAC2. I don't know if it still works like this, but if Steam gets deep into your PC, then that's one more reason to give them the finger. Heel, even hacking Wine to get me some Wallhacks can be done ;) Likewise, hacked drivers can do the same. It's just not entirely possible to prevent cheating -- the problem is that ignorant gamers think that it is easy to fix. Since I'm raging: Fuck Them Too.

    --
    Have you heard about SoylentNews?
    1. Re:Steam, VAC, what's that? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I find it amazing that so many idiots use Steam, knowing that it can, all of a sudden, dump an existing platform (remember the Windows98 issue? BOOOHOO).

      How horrible it must be, to stop supporting a platform (mid-2007) for which any kind of official support was discontinued by manufacturer a year before (mid-2006)!

      I mean, all two users who were still playing games on 98 by then (what was it, by the way - the original CS?) have my sincere sympathy. Maybe we can set up a donation fund for them to upgrade their hardware to run XP, or something...

    2. Re:Steam, VAC, what's that? by Jorl17 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it made sense, of course, to dump Windows. With Linux it is worse even when a new kernel gets out or a new libc version is out! But the thing is that we let them control us; it is much like what recently happened with the Xbox. Same thing can happen here. Old games don't need to be thrown away, and old platforms don't present threats. Or do they? If they can't progress because of them, issue a warning that the app won't be updated due to the system. If it brings security risks, then it might be dangerous -- and I'm sure that's what happened to Steam.
      You see, the fact that we can doesn't mean we should. And sometimes, our understanding of "should" is wrong.

      But oh well, nobody seems to care anymore, they only want their bellies to be fed.

      --
      Have you heard about SoylentNews?
    3. Re:Steam, VAC, what's that? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's not about security risks. It's just the simple fact that supporting Win9x at this point is tedious on code level. It doesn't have a lot of APIs that were always present in NT, or added in 2K/XP. It doesn't have Unicode APIs (yes, there's UnicoWS, but it's not complete and sometimes buggy, so you need to code to it specifically). Ultimately, it's a separate and very distinct platform, so you need separate functionality and regression test runs for it. All this adds up to $$$.

      As for old games, well... most of my Steam games are actually old classics such as Doom 1/2, X-COM, Jagged Alliance, Fallout 1/2, Dark Forces etc. I don't see how Steam could in any way be blamed for throwing away old games - if anything, it does the opposite, bringing them back to life.

    4. Re:Steam, VAC, what's that? by Jorl17 · · Score: 1

      Well, then you just hit my point: There was no need to drop steam, just steam updates. Old system? -> No new games for you! That's how it should work! It was very tedious, oh my! It worked BEFORE didn't it? What changed? their goals? technology? Of course *that* changed, but they didn't have to fully DROP support! They could've just stopped it. By doing that, all those old games which can only be run through steam, became deprecated. You see, your arguments are being centralized on yourself, whereas I am trying to look at this from an abstract platform-independent way. Is your PC not manufactured anymore? Oh, no? Well, then, let's block access to it, since it's so deprecated and has such crappy hardware for which drivers can't be written anymore. Do you see how that sounds lame? Of course I understand why they dropped it, I just think that a better alternative -- such as, once again, dropping updates -- could be more reliable, useful and ethically correct.

      --
      Have you heard about SoylentNews?
  36. Draconic by Vahokif · · Score: 1

    VAC is great as far as deterrence goes, but it's a real bummer when your account gets hijacked and used for cheating. Valve never repeals VAC bans, even if they gave you your account back personally, so you have to buy all your online games again if you want to play.

  37. Cheating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Valve would get a lot of cheaters when they extend the definition of cheating to include abusing their random drop system that rewards people for time played, causing people to connect to servers and idle.

  38. VAC is worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with VAC / VAC2 is that it is entirely too easy to bypass, and does not use enough in-depth detection.
    They do not detect even the simplest forms of cheating in ReadProcessMemory and WriteProcessMemory, allowing you to develop hacks that run outside the process and give all the features one could want without vac detection worries at all.
    Worse yet, while they do CRC their own binaries, this is easily bypassed by a simple 2 nop process which allows you to completely disable vac scanning altogether.

    They do no hardware based scanning, don't check opengl, and once you go kernel mode you can give it up as far as detection is concerned.

    Punkbuster was / is a much more difficult anticheat to bypass and much more effective at cheat detection, but even their efforts are mostly futile.

    Essentially, the only thing any anticheat can hope to achieve is the blocking/detection of the publicly available cheats and vac fails to even properly do this.

  39. Have not seen too many aim bots, mostly speed hack by George_Ou · · Score: 1

    Biggest problem I've seen is the speed hacks where someone runs around 100 miles per hour. I've also seen a sniper use some kind of spy-cheat where he can see spies. There was no way for me to get past him as a spy because he'd shoot me every time even if I never bumped anything to disrupt my cloak. I haven't seen any cheats lately though.

  40. I LOL'd by msimm · · Score: 1

    Maybe in your long history of casual gaming you just didn't know when you did see it. Not only has it been rampant, but all the popular commercial cheat engines support it, so if your really curious you pay (or find a working free injector/proggy) try it on yourself.

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:I LOL'd by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Well, some cheaters try to make it as subtle as possible. Others... not so much. I bet there were tons of cheaters in MW2 that I didn't notice but there was one who was so damn blatant I just had to stand next to him to tell he was using an aimbot.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  41. a big advantage of dedicated servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is that the guys that admin the server can observe and ban the cheaters.

    I have always ended up gravitating to the dedicated servers that are well-managed
    by clans or admins and enforce rules and general good behavior, because those are
    the servers that are enjoyable to play on.

    I have spent long, thoroughly enjoyable nights playing COD4 on such servers.

    I never spend more than 15 minutes playing COD:MW2 because I cannot select such a
    server. I invariably end up with a bunch of immature knuckleheads, and we frequently
    observe cheaters that we can't do anything about.

    The fact that you can customize your dedicated server to enhance the game
    (realism mods, etc.) is another major perk.

    So really -- the best anti-cheat is to play with mature people who have the
    power to boot the jerks off the server.

  42. nice to see a company get it by lostros · · Score: 1

    To see this on the same day i read of ubisofts incredibly draconian drm is beautiful to me. stopping cheaters is what a company should be doing, instead of spending all their profits to make sure i don't buy the game on pc.

  43. I went over to the dark side... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    After MANY years (10+) of playing various FPS'es and being the victim of rampant cheating, I decided to pay for a one month subscription to callofdutyhacks.com for COD4 WAW2.

    Essentially I had a schadenfreude-esque experience tormenting others with my rampant aimbotting for about 5 days. It didnt take long for the novelty to wear off and I completely stopped playing the game at the end of the 5 days.

    Being the victim of cheating removed any enjoyment of playing FPS style games I had. Victimizing others for a brief period while I was using a cheat framework ended up being just as empty an experience.

  44. Re:Warfare and gaming is automated, no going back by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

    WTF are you smoking?
    You are apparently living in cheaterland, where you have no hand-eye coordination and you rely on software to play for you.
    None of modern existance is automated. You are just trying to rationalize your cheating. Epic FAIL!

    I'm going to guess that a DD214 is not among your personal papers, is it?

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  45. Psychology of cheating by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    The first time I played CS, my buddy installed a couple cheats for me and showed me how to use them. It really sapped all the fun out of the game for me, haven't cheated since.

    So why do people cheat? Sure, in tournaments there may be money involved, but 99.99 percent of cheaters aren't getting any material reward. So a bunch of anonymous strangers think you're leet? Seriously? Any good studies online that have looked into this?

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    1. Re:Psychology of cheating by Sardak · · Score: 1

      I see a few cheaters in Left 4 Dead from time to time, and it's always fun to mess with them. After verifying it (such as a speed hack, which is extremely obvious), I watch them for a bit to see how they play and how they use whatever cheat(s) they're using. Then I come up with workarounds and torture them until they get frustrated and leave the server.

      The most recent involved someone using a speed hack. When playing as the survivors, he would just rush along to the safe room, leaving his team behind. So, I would get a hunter and take a couple shortcuts and cut him off, leaving him dead and with nothing to do for the rest of the round. As infected, he liked to spawn far away and run up to our team incredibly fast to perform an attack. Unfortunately for him, he always followed the same pattern of offsetting his position when he ran back out of range to prepare for another attack. With a bit of work, I could predict when he'd show up, and smash his face in with a shotgun before he could attack. After a few rounds spend either dead or not able to pull off a single attack, he was gone and the rest of us were able to enjoy the game.

  46. OnLive? by Roceh · · Score: 1

    Anti-cheat efforts mirror DRM efforts in that in an open system that can run arbitrary code you cannot make it work. Its pointless. Theres only two ways you will get a reasonable working anti-cheat system and that is to raise the bar of access to run arbitrary code, i.e. a closed system such as a console. OnLive's video delivery method may offer some hope with regards reducing cheating on the PC, but you still allow some pixel scanning cheats, but such cheats are very limited in what they can achieve. I hope that OnLive realise that one of the major advantages that they have over traditional disc/download games is that they will be relatively cheat free, and they segregate their multiplayer servers from non OnLive players.

  47. Don't ban the game box, ban the person by jwhitener · · Score: 1

    I wonder if, like credit cards or other 'real world' items, if players would put up with a system like:

    1. buy the game, enter your physically address, phone, name, etc..
    2. game company physically mails you a code to that address
    3. You can start playing right away, but the game will quit working if the physically mailed code isn't entered within 2 weeks (or longer/shorter depending on how long it takes for the mail to get to your house).
    4. If you are caught cheating, your physical address/name/phone is banned, not the game box identifier.

    That way, even if you buy another game, you'd have to register it with a physical address. And sure, you could probably use a friends, but eventually you are going to run out.

  48. Blizzard by Tyrion+Moath · · Score: 1

    Blizzard's anti-cheat software for WoW is just as deep-scanning as this, if not more so. What's new here?

    1. Re:Blizzard by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Blizzard's anti-cheat software for WoW is just as deep-scanning as this, if not more so. What's new here?

      And doesn't work.

      --
      Be seeing you...
  49. What about better karma systems? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

    I'm not a great fan of eBay but the positive/negative feedback thing they use does help weed out untrustworthy sellers on there.

    So why not extend this as a karma system into gaming? If I have had a really enjoyable half-hour Unreal Tournament fragfest on an online server, I certainly wouldn't mind putting a tick against other players names, or a cross against someone who I thought was cheating...

    Take it a stage further and have game servers with minimum karma limits before you can get on them...

    I don't play WoW, friends of mine do, and they moan about being pestered by annoying players - so, again, introduce a karma system and make certain areas of the game, or game items, unobtainable until you have a certain karma level...

    I have never, ever, ever, understood the point of cheating unless there is something to be gained (like money) - whether it's a board game or an online game, the sheer *FUN* of using your wits to use the game rules to your advantage is what it's about, and winning is just the icing on the cake.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  50. Your car is used for robbery = VAC life sentence by gert+cuykens · · Score: 1

    I am just glad our justice system is a little bit more complex then VAC. It is just a cheap solution that terrorizes people out of cheating. How their you put the responsibility of pc security in the hands of a 13 year old who must agree on the VAC terms to play the game, stating the person who is playing the game is responsible for every hack, virus, key logger, or any way a account could be compromised. Its is just sad to see the majority thinks this kind of abuse is ok. Even microsoft has a better policy considering licences key's of there operating system.