Two Chinese Schools Reportedly Tied To Online Attacks

Hum. by bbqsrc · 2010-02-20 03:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'd like to say I'm shocked by the previous 4 moronic comments, but this is slashdot, so I am not. So they confirm where the attacks came from, where does it go from there? Banning the IP range of those schools from Google services? I somehow doubt they'll find a way to directly pin this on the Chinese government, regardless of if they did it or not.

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Disagree != mod troll.

Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 03:49 · Score: 1

They won't do nothing because China will simply tell the US that it won't be borrowing any more money unless it obeys China's wishes.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Hum. by zappepcs · 2010-02-20 03:56 · Score: 1

Pinning it on the Chinese government in public would be claiming an attack by one government on another's citizens and infrastructure. This would be one of the scenarios that Home Land Security is preparing to defend against. It's presumed that 'terrorists' would be the attackers, but if it turns out the terrorists are Chinese it would shift the direction of momentum for such groups as Homeland Security. With the USA in a semi-permanent state of war against terror, if this is tagged as terrorism, it stands a good chance of crumbling trade agreements to bits. Of course that can't be allowed to happen politically, so the offensive parts of this will be swept under the political rug, and in the worst case situation, China will claim to have punished some errant students. There is far more involved than some IT attacks. Rest assured that business and political interests will ensure that a bit of 'file sharing' won't get in the way of those other interests. So, where do we go from here? not page 1, page 7 of the local section if we're lucky enough to see it in main stream news at all.

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Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
Re:Hum. by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:08 · Score: 1

Who knows, maybe the government ain't responsible for it after all?
Let's be honest here, think back to your school years. I dunno about you, but I grew up with the (motion) picture of the evil Russian and the heroic US agents and spies that steal (and steal back) $secret from Russian developers, or sabotage the development of $evil_weapon. I can well imagine that the Chinese movie market pushes out the same kind of propaganda, with US for Russia and China for US.
Now, unlike us who had, at best, analog modems with 900something baud (if that), these kids have fast internet connections at their disposal. Security is actually WORSE than it was in our youth, when the only servers you'd find were by definition pretty secure because they were ran by highly trained professionals (because no ordinary company and certainly no ordinary person could cough up the dough to run one) instead of being set up by idiots that got a crib sheet for setting one up in their evening school class. And let's not even consider the millions of people online who think TCP is the Chinese Secret Service or something like that.
I can see how it could be tempting to a teenager with the tools and the knowledge to go and cause havoc to "that evil power".

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Hum. by mjwalshe · 2010-02-20 04:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

so the USA recognises Taiwan and removes most favored status for China, Dont forget China needs its external markets as much if not more than the USA needs China to buy the USA's gilts.
Re:Hum. by Nidi62 · 2010-02-20 04:17 · Score: 1

They don't loan to us, we can't buy their stuff. We don't buy their stuff, they don't grow. Their whole economy is predicated on manufacturing for Western markets.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Hum. by insufflate10mg · 2010-02-20 04:25 · Score: 1

Name one measurable way they drain society.
Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 04:26 · Score: 0

>>>analog modems with 900something baud
(puts on nitpicker's hat) - The fastest analog modem was 3429 baud with a bit rate of 33.6 kbit/s. I would have killed for 900-something baud. That would be faster than the DSL I'm using now (700-something).
(removes nitpicker's hat) - Wow. I get so anal when I wear that thing. Anyway I agree with you that this was probably just some school exercise, and some of the kids got a little carried away with their "leet" skills. It doesn't mean the Chinese government was involved. (Although one could argue the military and government are the same thing.)

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Hum. by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:31 · Score: 1

China can still sell to Europe. It's not as big a market, but it can tide them over. But where will the US buy? I mean, who's going to sell to them if they already showed they can't pay?

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 04:36 · Score: 0

>>>it would shift the direction of momentum for such groups as Homeland Security
Here comes the Nightwatch.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Hum. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:38 · Score: 0

They won't do nothing because China will simply tell the US that it won't be borrowing any more money unless it obeys China's wishes.
So, they will do something, because China will simply tell the US that it won't be borrowing any more money unless it obeys China's wishes?
Re:Hum. by WindBourne · 2010-02-20 05:06 · Score: 1

Very sad, actually. I am one of many opposed to what Chinese gov. is doing, but to be racists against the people is a very different thing. Sad that kids are being raised this way.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:Hum. by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 05:07 · Score: 1

So they confirm where the attacks came from, where does it go from there?

The usual with anything dealing with international politics. A lot of posturing, threats, and promises, but very little in the way of action.

I somehow doubt they'll find a way to directly pin this on the Chinese government, regardless of if they did it or not.

Who's "they"? Google? Google has already tried to do that. Same with the U.S. media. John Markoff was on NPR yesterday talking about how it couldn't have just been students because "they used unknown IE exploits, which points to professionals". That just made me laugh. Gee John Markoff, did you forget your own reporting from the last 20 years where it was the American kids using "unknown exploits" (Mitnick, Robert Morris) to break into American businesses?
Who it was that ACTUALLY did these attacks I doubt we'll ever know. China will try to sweep it all under the rug, Google will try to use this as a way to look like they're trying to face up to China, and the media will use it as another opportunity to sell some eyeballs. I sure as hell wouldn't just assume it couldn't have been a single, or a small group of individuals though. These guys this guy (just to pick a couple well known examples) proved that wrong more than 20 years ago. It could also be a collusion of individuals and foreign governments, like for instance this guy

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AccountKiller
Re:Hum. by dwye · 2010-02-20 05:30 · Score: 1

> (Although one could argue the military and government are the same thing.)
No, but it would be pretty hard to argue that the military is not a proper subset of the government.
However, in any case, since they have been exposed, the Secretary will disavow an knowledge of their actions. Good luck, Mister (Chinese equivalent of Briggs, Hand, or Phelps).
(cue Lalo Shifrin's theme)
Re:Hum. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:30 · Score: 0

They already did pin it on the Chinese govt. Han Chinese are homogeneous. Their govt is an extension of their nationalism.
S
Re:Hum. by m.ducharme · 2010-02-20 05:55 · Score: 3, Informative

China's already started dumping its T-bills. Strangely, this doesn't seem to be getting a lot of play in the media...I wonder why?
Times of India
Reuters

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Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
Re:Hum. by Ihmhi · 2010-02-20 06:38 · Score: 1

So? Other countries will be glad to buy the T-Bills. This is a non-issue. See this post and its child posts..

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Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Re:Hum. by zill · 2010-02-20 09:28 · Score: 1

USA != Western world
Re:Hum. by Nidi62 · 2010-02-20 09:33 · Score: 1

No, it certainly isnt. But China sells to the West, not to the East, and the US is the largest market in that region.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Hum. by cyfer2000 · 2010-02-20 16:52 · Score: 1

I hope we can get a direct-to-video/DVD/Blue-ray movie on this Google vs. China thing, just like the Mitnick story.

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There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
Re:Hum. by KDR_11k · 2010-02-20 21:01 · Score: 1

It's the government that can't pay but it's the people and economy that imports.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Hum. by KDR_11k · 2010-02-20 21:09 · Score: 1

I'd assume seasoned hackers would know how to use proxies.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-21 14:14 · Score: 1

>>>if it turns out the terrorists are Chinese, it would shift the direction of momentum for such groups as Homeland Security
On no. Here comes the Nightwatch. Better be careful what posters you hang, else you'll be arrested by them.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Re:Finally, by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:34 · Score: 0

A question mark at the end of the title does the job more efficiently.

They are anti-American... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Anyone who has experienced being in a class with any large number of Chinese students (that actually came from and lived in China, just to be clear) will tell you that many of them are deeply programmed to be anti-American. I used to read "USA sucks China rules" on the desks in the library all the time at SUNY Buffalo. I don't blame the students but it's true nonetheless.

Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Seriously, so what? China is in a cold war with the west. Sadly, the west has not woke up to this. This is just one more of their approaches. And to be honest, it is SMART on their part. The west is working hard to avoid another cold war, but we are in it and losing it. If China was a democracy, then it would be different. However, you will note that all of the nations that are not full democracies are coming together, and they are winning.

Re:Yeah. So what? by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 04:45 · Score: 1

I disagree that we are at war, because the economic-political situation is not the same. During the Euro-American versus Soviet Union Cold War, which initiated in the late 40s, there were two diametrically opposed philosophies: A free uncontrolled market (us) versus a government-controlled market (them).
However in the last few decades things have changed. The Euro-American market is still privately owned, but the government is pulling the strings more-and-more with each passing year (called socialism). Heck we have a carmaker that is now called "government motors" in some circles since the government owns a majority stake in it.
The Chinese market is very similar to the EU and US markets: Privately owned businesses but with government control. Our economies are more alike than different, with the only caveat being our government-controlled marketplace is democratically elected, while theirs is not, but I don't think that's an important enough distinction to declare a cold war.
We are too dependent on one another (we need their goods; they need our customers).

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:02 · Score: 1, Informative

You have it VERY wrong. This is not about the TYPE of an economic system. This is about the type of gov that you are ok with. Many Chinese are willing to accept the CURRENT situation only because they have not known economic freedom. HOWEVER, the Chinese gov will NOT give up control. And neither will the other govs that are slowly moving in. Take the example of Venezuela. They freely elected Chavez. Great. I say more power to them. HOWEVER, now, he has amended their constitution to allow himself to run forever (he was term limited). In addition, he is shutting down private new media AND controlling their polls.

At this time, China DOES need us, but they are working to break that. The problem is that American companies do not care, nor are they paying attention. China is busy stealing tech. In addition, they have fixed their money to the dollar, put up trade barriers, dump their products, and subsidize their own goods. This is designed to drain the west of their manufacturing capabilities.

This is a Cold war. We are losing it because of people that do not pay attention. Far too many Americans are being corrupted in the pursuit of the all mighty dollar.
Re:Yeah. So what? by TheLink · 2010-02-20 05:46 · Score: 1

> Many Chinese are willing to accept the CURRENT situation only because they have not known economic freedom.

Most Chinese are willing to accept the current situation because they believe that things have actually been improving enough over the past decade or so. Many even have experienced first hand the improvements[1].

They have quite a fair bit of economic freedom in China. They don't have much political freedom. If you're poor, it doesn't matter how much economic freedom there is in your country - your options are still limited.

[1] Yes being better than really crap is not so hard. But hey they are actually improving stuff. Not everything is improving of course, but in general very many things have got better.
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Re:Yeah. So what? by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:33 · Score: 0, Troll

>>>You have it VERY wrong. This is not about the TYPE of an economic system. This is about the type of gov that you are ok with.
>>>
Yes it is. And I see the US and EU governments moving towards Chinese-style government. Not immediately of course, but inch-by-inch. Just look at the legislation: You must buy hospitalization, else Congress will fine you ~$1000 per year. France is passing laws to filter the internet (Chinese-style censorship). The UK is looking at 3 strike laws where you lose internet without trial to prove your innocence. The EU Parliament wants to limit selling to only those with brick-and-mortar storefronts (goodbye to ebay or online-only sellers). GM is now Government Motors in North America. The EU is proposing a government-owned rail system that crosses the continent from Russia to Spain (Chinese style). The EU Parliament wants to make firing bad employees illegal, except in the most egregious circumstances (Chinese style guaranteed employment).
Yeah I know what you're thinking - it's not that bad, and you're right. But the direction is clear: We're moving towards Chinese-style, government-run economy.
Vice-versa China is starting to allow democratic elections (at the local level) which I'm sure will gradually expand to the national level. Eventually (2020? 2030?) our two cultures seem destined to meet in the middle with near identical economic-political systems.
In which case, there's no need to fight. We would become allies.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 06:36 · Score: 0

BULLSHIT.
China is NOT in cold war. China is in competition. Well, I should say China Inc. is in competition with US businesses.
If China was a democracy, who knows, it may be even more nationalistic. Democracy is not a panacea. Just look what happened to Gaza thanks to democracy.
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:57 · Score: 0

They have improved things, as long as you're not a minority things are _better_ there.
Re:Yeah. So what? by zill · 2010-02-20 10:00 · Score: 1

The EU Parliament wants to make firing bad employees illegal, except in the most egregious circumstances (Chinese style guaranteed employment).
Just curious, where did you hear about this "Chinese style guaranteed employment"?

I didn't think such a thing was possible in a market economy.
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 10:50 · Score: 0

> I see the US and EU governments moving towards Chinese-style government.
Then you're seeing a few trees and not the forest. The US and EU nations are idling through their usual cyle - approaching their own unique failure modes, then retreating from them, and so on. But none of them have failure modes that end anywhere near China's style of government, current or historical.
I suppose you could take any two kinds of government and, with enough twisting, insist that A is approaching B. But to put things in perspective, the US even in its darkest hours has never been as authoritarian as China's least-authoritarian phase, and even a worst-case scenario in Europe's least-stable locales is likely to get quite as messed up as the China of today.
A is still arguing on the radio about maybe kind of thinking about doing bad things, while B is shooting people in the night.
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 16:22 · Score: 0

BULLSHIT back at you. It is one thing to be competitive. It is another to be signatory to multiple treaties and break them.

For starters, they have their money fixed to the US dollar. They are suppose to allow that to float per the agreement with USA AND WTO. They were to drop their trade barriers to something like 5% tariffs, from 15% and now it is as high as 50%. That was both WTO and USA treaties. They are not suppose to dump, but they do it heavily on western nations. They are not suppose to subsidize electricity, etc, and yet they do. They are required to allow full access to all minerals and yet, they have announced that they will close up exports of fairly rare rare earth minerals and that was after trying to corner the markets.

That was just economic.

So, what is going on with their military? Well, they are building space weapons. Their military is about to launch MULTIPLE manned space stations. One will be 'civilian', while the others will be off-limit to all. No use for a manned space station for a military. They are attacking over the net. They are spying massively in all militaries. They have the largest military build-up that has EVER been known (bigger than Germany or USA before they each went into WWII). They are loading the Indian Ocean with Boomers, helping Burma with Nukes, putting SHIT LOADS of troops on the India's northern borders, starting minor skirmishes in India, and recently, some evidence says that they were helping Taliban in Pakistan to invade into Kashmir and India (that stopped when the Sunni were rising in Western China and Chinese gov. attacked them).

Competitive? Not even. China is in a cold war, and they are winning.

And Chinese business are not even CLOSE to being competitive with Western Business. If so, then why fucking cheat so badly? Let them be honest and sincere and then allow them to compete. The US should drop PMFN and hold them accountable. Sadly, too many lobbyists that are from China.

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

You do realize that by those standards of treating industrial/state espionage as an act of war you should also be including countries like france, germany, israel, russia, south africa and so on? Not to mention the dozens and dozens of countries the US regularly performs hostile intelligence operations on? So you're really hoping for WWIII? Welcome to the real world, kid.

The most awesome vocational school in the world by lobsterturd · 2010-02-20 03:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Shanghai Jiaotong University? Fair enough. But also see Roland Soong's translations about the vocational school.

Re:The most awesome vocational school in the world by noisebar · 2010-02-20 06:19 · Score: 1

My reaction too. I can understand Jiaotong getting involved (I graduated from that school). But Nanxiang? Are you kidding me? Their ads appear in TV infomercials!
Re:The most awesome vocational school in the world by theArtificial · 2010-02-20 10:11 · Score: 1

All I can say is wow. The situation of the students attending these "schools" reminds me of the saying: Criminals are not born. They are made.

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Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.

Re:Act Of War by Jon+Abbott · 2010-02-20 03:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I would like to know what the U.S. contingency plan is for war with China. Look at almost any product in the U.S. today, and it is from China. If we declare war with them, do we suddenly have no more imported goods? This is not a scenario that I like to ponder.

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Slashdot's first reaction to VMware

this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 03:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

to go ABC with my buying habits, ie Anything But China. I refuse unless absolutely necessary to buy goods manufactured in China. They are obvious hellbent on telling the rest of the world what they are allowed to do(such as meet with the Dalai Lama), not to mention they have the most hypocritical trade policy on the planet. Fuck them, fuck them all.

It's not easy, but if you are vigilant you can find really good deals on stuff not made in China(which is pretty much all shit quality anyway). I've noticed that clothes made in Vietnam have much better quality than those made in China, ditto for electronics and Japan. I have a camera that is made in Japan and has lasted a long time despite being repeatedly abused. It was certainly worth the extra bit of money I paid over the Chinese made piece of shit I bought before. The last pair of shoes I bought that were made in China fell apart in a couple of months, the US made ones I am wearing now are much durable. The list goes on. Boycott China.

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Monstar L

Re:this attack finally convinced me by DeltaQH · 2010-02-20 04:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

But don't boycott Taiwan (Repuplic of China)
Re:this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 04:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

Unlike China they actually make some decent quality stuff and are vehemently opposed to the mainland's expansionist policies for obvious reasons.

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Monstar L
Re:this attack finally convinced me by euyis · 2010-02-20 04:10 · Score: 1

What's a "repuplic"...
Re:this attack finally convinced me by DeltaQH · 2010-02-20 04:14 · Score: 1

Ooops! My fault. I mean Republic

A republic is a form of government in which the head of state is not a monarch and the people (or at least a part of its people)have an impact on its government The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 04:34 · Score: 1

After the various Chinese food scandals, I refuse to buy any food from that comes from China. It's obvious to me the cause of the THREE separate melamine food scandals (milk, wheat gluten and pet food) and the poisoned toothpaste scandal were a corrupt system that's setup to reward bad behavior. Essentially milk producers got more money if they had high protein levels in the milk. Adding melamine gave a high false reading for protein. Someone obviously started marketing this melamine to farmers or someone else in the distribution channel to raise protein levels. They might not even have known what the hell the stuff was. If the price of milk is so low you can't survive without watering it down and putting this poison in it to "enhance" it, how many people won't do that? So the problem is systemic, and not just "a few bad apples", which is how I heard China was trying to spin it as. Not a system I want to gamble my health on.
The whole thing reminds me of the U.S. banking system that caused the housing collapse. That's a similar system that rewarded bad behavior where banks bundle up bad mortgages (throwing away information in the process), and then get a ratings agency to give the resulting security a triple-A rating (low risk). The securities then got sold around the world. The ratings agencies are "independent", but are highly motivated to give good ratings since banks will shop around for good rating agencies. Of course, we STILL haven't really fixed the system in any way, and the will to do so is quickly disappearing.

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AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:57 · Score: 0

Don't be stupid. Because of China's unique economic position, it has very diverse manufacturing, meaning that "China" will make anything you care to specify. If the companies you buy from are specifying crap, China will make crap to order, those companies will sell you the crap with a nice American markup, and when you call to complain that it is crap, they will tell you a story about stuff made in China, which of course is the stuff they told China to make in the first place. End result? You blame China and hold no ill for the American company that knowingly sold you overpriced garbage, because you're a sucker.
China also makes top-end electronics like the iPod and Nintendo DS. Why? Because Apple and Nintendo tell them to make top-end electronics. They do that because they care about their brand image and want people to associate their brands with high-quality stuff. They (i.e. you) get what was paid for. Walmart however doesn't give a damn about its image, and if you only buy the cheap crap they order from China, then you're only going to get cheap crap. Yeah your $10 Walmart shoes made in China fell apart in a couple of months? Go figure. My $100 Nikes that lasted all the way through college and beyond? Also made in China. Do the math.
An American company will gladly sell you cheap junk if they care nothing for their image, and if you're stupid enough to keep buying it. China has nothing to do with your problem.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 05:13 · Score: 1

HAHAHA, Nintendo DS as a high quality product? I've had 2 DS's, both are broken despite and yet my Japanese-made Gameboy is still kicking more than 20 years after I purchased it. Chinese workers don't give a shit about the stuff they are making, they are there only to allow the government come in to grab as much technology as they can.

As per the shoes in my example, the Chinese pair was $60, the American pair $30, the American pair lasted much longer. As per the American companies, I've bought stuff from the EXACT same companies at similar prices, some made in China, some made elsewhere. Guess what? the quality of the stuff made elsewhere is markedly better than the shit made in China. Whether the Chinese workers are intentionally doing a shitty job or intentionally poisoning the stuff they export is up for debate, but what isn't is their absolute shit quality. For example Apple's hardware quality has fallen significantly after moving more and more manufacturing to China. I doubt this is a coincidence.

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Monstar L
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:47 · Score: 0

I have a finance background and can supplement this with some interesting tidbits:
The underlying belief was that, if AAA-rated companies had a historical default rate of e.g. 0.1%, it would be fair and sensible if any type of synthetic debt obligation with a 0.1% default rate should also be rated AAA.
So you look in the magic market ball of securities, and identify some with really attractive characteristics: mortgage bonds. They had a very strong reward/risk ratio, based on the underlying components: risk had been low because the market had been going up strongly, and reward was high, because they interest rate paid by mortgage borrowers was slightly above other types of looks-really-low-risk debt. The "obstacle" you had was that these mortgages had all kinds of different default rates and maturities. How do you turn a bunch of mortgages with a default rate of e.g. 1% into 0.1%? You slice the pool in half, and say that "any defaults will first be taken from the lower-quality part, and then from the higher-quality part". If you slice it right, the "top" part gets a 0.1% statistical default rate, and the bottom half gets something like a 10%.
Then you can take multiples of these "bottom parts", put them together, and split the new package in two - the bottom part "guarantees" the top part, losses are taken from the bottom part first, so the default rate of the top part becomes 0.1%, and the bottom part something high.
Due to the way the math works (I have seen it, but only briefly and it's not my area, but this is the concept), the problem with this is that when you create new packages out of the old packages, their value becomes _hypersensitive_ to _increases_ in the implicit statistical default rate. So as long as the world is ticking along so that "a mortgage has a statistical probability of default of 1%", then a "quite risky" bond far down in the chain can still have a default probability of 5%. But if the statistical default probability of the mortgage rises to 2%, the default probability of the "quite risky" bond increases to 50%. Because they are priced on a continuous basis based on their underlying statistical probability it doesn't matter if they are 10-year bonds - their value will fall instantly when the mortgage default data next ticks in.
And when did this happen? Just about when the Fed started raising interest rates. It should seem obvious to most people that, if rising interest rates happens together with a couple of other things that in themselves aren't too bad, it increases the probability of default slightly, making the value of all those bonds disappear.
This should be a problem especially for people who like flexibility in their macroeconomic policies, because these instruments effectively are highly leveraged to a continously benign economic environment. The longer the environment has been stable, the "sharper becomes the point" of the instruments that are most highly leveraged to that stability, and the quicker the fall over in any slight wobble. This means that, if you _try to raise interest rates_, you might just explode the financial system. Monetary policy becomes a one-way street downwards.
I'm not totally aware of the proposals on how to properly regulate credit ratings. My feelings range from the rather extreme (deny ratings to synthetic bonds - if you want to hold it, do the maths yourself) to the more sensible (have mandatory stress tests that include a sharp and big increase in interest rates). The only ones I have heard of (ban 'ratings consulting' by the agencies and publish their methodology) solves nothing in itself, because the fundamental problem was taking advantage of the statistically bening features of securities, and banks would simply move the consulting function in-house to "game the methodology" from there. Some other proposals would partly alleviate this, such as a higher capital ratio (which would mean more losses could be absorbed) and stricter controls of the markets where bubbles are most likely to happen, but it's a travesty that such a fundamental problem as the credit ratings system isn't worked on.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:57 · Score: 0

ANECDOTES FOR THE WIN!!! The original Game Boys are invincible. That fact has been a well-documented phenomenon. There is nothing else like it, not even from Japan. If that's the only counterpoint for Japan-made electronics you can come up with, everyone knows it's not a representative example.
http://nintendo.joystiq.com/2008/02/06/damn-it-feels-good-to-have-a-game-boy/
You did not buy a pair of shoes for $60 from China. You bought it for $60 from an American store. You know who got the lion's share of the profit from that? The store did. Because they told the Chinese factory to make e.g. a shoe for $5 per pair and they produced a shoe within that budget. You, however, paid $60 for a pair of $5 shoes, and the $55 difference in quality lies with the American company you bought it from, not the Chinese manufacturer. Which was the point of my first post. If you got your reading comprehension from an American school it sure didn't turn out well. Maybe take a class in Japan?
If there is evidence of a statistically significant drop in quality of Apple's hardware, I don't think it would be coincidence either, I think it would be Apple experimenting with their levels of quality control. Every company gets the last say in what products they ship to stores. If they have a problem with quality it's because they don't want to pay for quality or for quality controls. That's how bad stuff ends up in your hands, because the company that orders the stuff thinks it's okay to sell it to you that way. They have the ability to stop low-quality items from ever reaching you. But why would they if people are dumb enough to keep paying money for it?
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 06:16 · Score: 1

This is getting way off topic, but why not just ban the practice of bundling all these mortgages together into something that almost nobody fully understands? The ratings agency was supposed to take care of that problem, but I'm skeptical that trying to fix them is a good long term solution.
The other proposal that did appeal to me is making anyone wanting to sell these things keep a portion of them (I call it "eating your own dogfood"). Combine that with banning rating something that's essentially un-ratable because of the complexity sounds decent enough to me. What really became apparent to me is the financial industry may have smart people in it, but they're all prone to this self-reinforcing echo-chamber effect. That's why I'm skeptical that trying to fix the ratings people is the right approach, since they'll just come up with another self-reinforcing belief structure that'll go poof.

--
AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:39 · Score: 0

We can't ban the practices because:
1) Stifles innovation
2) Too much support infrastructure investment
3) Key players & decision makers are very well off with the current system.
1 & 2 have counter arguments that support your position, but 3 is the hard one to over come. In 3, your got Jobs, Commissioned workers, Real estate industry, Bankers, Senior Mgrs, VPs, CEOs, CFOs, Directors, Board Members, and of course Politicians.
Just to give you a simple example: A lot of people hate Fannie Mae, but most of their decision makers are some REALLY smart people. They saw this issue before it hit and wanted to compensate by putting in place almost exactly what you said (redo the product mix to reduce the overall risk due to some products being reassessed from low to high risk). BUT even with the entire entity officially taking that stance, they were told not to go ahead with it. Why? Cause it would mean the finance and real estate industries would take a major hit. Which would result in lots of jobs lost. Which would bring us close to a recession.
The opposition basically said, "Don't tell the truth, cause people will panic and won't be able to handle it. Just keep things going the way they are, and hopefully it will just fix themselves or we come up with a better idea." Never mind that we were digging a hole already 3 feet deep, but hoping that it would fill up before we hit 6 feet.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:40 · Score: 0

Buying Japan may not be an option for much longer either. The current government in Japan (the DPJ) is pushing a very hard pro-China anti-US slant as of late, in their actions and rhetoric.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:50 · Score: 1, Interesting

Its amazing how effective emotional manipulation and marketing is on end consumers Understand that a lot of the stuff that has "Made in X" where X is not Chine are really just assemblers that shipped a manufactured item from China. In the simplest case, they are just putting toy Y from China in colorful box Z from South Korea, and now its Made in Taiwan. I think there are rules against buying from another country putting it on a shipping pallet and saying its made here but that's as far as the rules go (this used to be a common practice to avoid tariffs, and trade embargoes). It all comes down to quality control, and the US just happens to be the worst at it with the deepest wallets.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by sadboyzz · 2010-02-20 08:16 · Score: 1

What are your afraid of if you're so sure Chinese made products are inferior to anything made everywhere else? Just let the free market sort it out. That is, after all, how capitalism works, is it not?
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 08:32 · Score: 0

You don't want to know what they do to puppies there.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by martin-boundary · 2010-02-20 08:35 · Score: 1

Banning is the wrong approach anyway. The correct approach is to allow companies to fail, and if an industry fails with them, let it fail too. The window for that is now gone until the next crash, which is likely to happen in the next two years.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by goatherder23 · 2010-02-20 09:21 · Score: 1

So your sample size of one camera and one pair of shoes leads you to say everything from an entire country is shit?
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 09:38 · Score: 2, Funny

it is when a puppy licks you, you lick it back, then it licks you again.
vicious
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 09:54 · Score: 0

I agree with the general sentiment, but not in applying it to the recent case. Before we start letting the companies fail, we need to change the regulations (or lack of regulations) that allowed poor practices to quietly proliferate. Let risk be sold, but don't let risk be *hidden*. Because risk was hidden, risk silently propagated through the entire system rather than just a handful of small companies. "Let them fail" would have resulted in a total collapse in that case.
I'd amend "let them fail" to "let them fail fast"; in other words, if the risk is open and obvious, then only a few companies will knowingly take those risks, and they will fail before they're big enough that their failures escalate into entire nations failing. It's ok - arguably even desirable - to have a constant churn of small companies failing gracefully. It's not ideal, but better than the alternatives, to have the situation we're dealing with now, where things failed clumsily but in ways the nation can recover from in the next few years. But it'd be an absolute disaster to have just let everything follow its "natural" course of big cascading collapses, considering the last time that happened it took multiple decades to recover.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by zill · 2010-02-20 10:18 · Score: 1

Please let me know where you can purchase a computer that's not assembled in China.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by martin-boundary · 2010-02-20 11:40 · Score: 1

The problem with calculated risk is that it's largely theoretical. Unlike a mechanical part which can be tested to destruction (and a failure rate computed from this), the failure rate here is merely assumed. That makes it difficult to check the quality of a risk package that might be sold.
If you buy a ton of bricks, you can always sample them and test their strength. This is true transparency. It can be done regardless of the history of this set of bricks, ie how many companies bought and sold them prior to delivery to you.
The risk market is not like that. The history of the components of a risk package is clearly necessary to understand and calculate its true failure rate, even if everyone in the chain happens to be honest. I am not sure what regulations you could introduce to decouple the risk assessment from the packaging history to bring about true transparency.
On the other point, I think that the usual discussion on collapse is too simplistic. The choice is framed as saving a company (implicit: saving the shareholders, and the freedom of said company to act as it pleases) versus letting it collapse (implicit: uncontrolled collapse, employees free to leave, directors free to dismantle assets, etc). This conveniently keeps the rights of owners and company directors free from restrictions either way.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 12:47 · Score: 1

For example Apple's hardware quality has fallen significantly after moving more and more manufacturing to China. I doubt this is a coincidence.
Concur. About 1/8 of the iMacs where I work have had hardware failures, usually motherboards, although some were HDDs. And we have a non-trivial amount of machines, but they were purchased in groups of 80-ish, so we could have just gotten a bad batch like with the Dell capacitor issue back in 2005-2006.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 12:58 · Score: 1

So in other words, nobody learned anything and we're just as screwed as we were 2 years ago. Great. Time to start putting my money in Euros, or are is everyone else just as stupid and shortsighted as the American bankers?

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AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 14:31 · Score: 0

OP here. Pretty much everywhere, yes. Notice that, in spite of how bad things feel in the States, the dollar hasn't fallen that extremely much against the Euro, which is just because things are shit in Europe as well. The UK has a nice 12% annual deficit that's not going away anytime soon, the same as Greece's, but because we're so cool here nobody talks about it.
You should basically get set for a massive amount of global inflation and taxation. The easy way to make money disappear is to print money, which effectively means you're spending the value of the money people have in their accounts and their pockets (Sometimes they get upset by this like in Germany after WW2). The bad investments in that environment are those that pay a fixed amount, like bonds. The good investments are those that either a) can raise prices, like most company shares, or b) that people tend to price in 'percentage of my income' instead of 'fixed sum' - like gold.
If I had money, I would buy property close to a nice city to rent out. Not only is it inflation-proof, there is also a benefit to owning it. Your house burns down? You meet a hot girl who lives on the street? You have some time to spare and enjoy DIY fixing? A few years down the line when you have moved, you want to go on holiday to the city? Bingo. If you love gambling, then buy shares for either big rewards or big losses, or just go to a casino, which is just as meaningful. Education is another great investment.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 14:57 · Score: 0

And that's why not to post at 2:30AM. Make debt disappear - in Germany before WW2.
That said, nothing bad is likely to happen with the banks in the short term. The banks are like a balloon with an angry wasp inside - and right now it's a lot less inflated than it was and much less likely to blow up, but the wasp is still there for when it inflates in the future. There isn't really any way you can remove it completely though, but it's true that little has been done to blunt the sting.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Nyder · 2010-02-20 21:11 · Score: 0, Redundant

While I don't agree with China's view, it's their view and their right.

--
Be seeing you...
Re:this attack finally convinced me by KDR_11k · 2010-02-21 00:43 · Score: 1

Wasn't the idea that housing is always profitable a part of the housing bubble? Too many people investing in houses leading to an oversupply and falling prices when they had mortgaged the houses on the assumption that the sale will make them enough money to pay that off?

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by KDR_11k · 2010-02-21 00:50 · Score: 1

Depends on how you define assemble. Anyone can assemble a PC from OTS components, those components are likely made in China though. Just taking those Chinese components and sticking them into a box is enough to let you put "Made in wherever-you-are" on the box.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by CalcuttaWala · 2010-02-21 01:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

i would strongly support the view that Chinese merchandise is really third class stuff. india too is flooded with all kinds of really dirt cheap stuff -- buckets, torches and a million other household goods -- the quality is astonishly bad. really wonder why people cannot make a simple and rational choice.

--
Insight into much, Influence over nothing !
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-21 02:55 · Score: 0

So where were the parts made for the computer you are using RIGHT NOW? China I bet. I don't care if it says Dell on the case. Where were the parts made?
The truth we don't make anything in the US except debt.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by fan+of+lem · 2010-02-21 19:54 · Score: 1

or Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region)

Jiaotong university topped the ACM by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Four Chinese teams and four Russian teams dominated the top 10 rankings of the 2010 ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest (ACM ICPC). Shanghai Jiaotong University took first place followed by Moscow State University in second place, and National Taiwan University in third place. "

From http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/2010/icpc-2010

No wonder why they are so good.

Re:Jiaotong university topped the ACM by Vinegar+Joe · 2010-02-20 04:04 · Score: 1

No wonder why they are so good.
But we have more lawyers and can simply sue them back to the Stone Age.

--
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Re:Jiaotong university topped the ACM by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 14:58 · Score: 0

Programming contest is total nonsense. You Americans are playing us but I know it.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2010-02-20 03:50 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Act Of War by BhaKi · 2010-02-20 03:51 · Score: 1

I would like to know what the U.S. contingency plan is for war with China. Look at almost any product in the U.S. today, and it is from China. If we declare war with them, do we suddenly have no more imported goods? This is not a scenario that I like to ponder.

Simple. You'll buy products from American corporations. Double benefit: on one hand, you rescue American companies out of the economic depression and on the other hand, you make Chinese companies lose.

--
The largest prime factor of my UID is 263267.

Re:Act Of War by Halo1 · 2010-02-20 03:51 · Score: 1

The scary part is that the parent is modded insightful instead of funny. There are many documented cases of the CIA, NSA, US Department of Commerce and other US entities (both governmental and non-governmental) committing industrial espionage in various forms (breaking into networks, tapping into video conferences, phone tapping, planting microphones and cameras, ...). See e.g. the list under "Published cases" in the Echelon report by the European Parliament.

So please stop acting like Virgin Mary already, it doesn't become you.

--
Donate free food here

Mod parent up by euyis · 2010-02-20 03:52 · Score: 1

I'm Chinese and I can assure you this is completely true :D

Re:Act Of War by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 03:53 · Score: 0

Instead of shipping across the Pacific, we'd simply ship across the Atlantic, and buy stuff from Europe, Africa, and India. It might cost a little more to buy from those areas, but the goods will still fit our needs.

And China would be hurt from the sudden lack of income from the US and the EU. It would probably throw them into an economic depression.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Then boycott Apple, Dell, HP, Seagate by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

and other american companies. Buy Nokia, Fujitsu.

Re:Then boycott Apple, Dell, HP, Seagate by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:00 · Score: 0

Yeah but it's damn hard to order stuff online. You just never know. Especially when ordering computer components where the manufacturing location is a mixed bag even from non-Chinese brands.
Re:Then boycott Apple, Dell, HP, Seagate by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 20:26 · Score: 0

Hey, forget Fujitsu-Siemens ......got a laptop from them that was unbelievably (really surprisingly) bad build quality (I wont go into the many other reasons it was crap...this was the most glaring, obvious and extreme issue) ........they said that the reason their Service departments consistently fail to fix certain equipment was because they outsource so much to China, including entire laptops, that their service departments dont know anything about them.... ..in my mind, Fujitsu was always Japanese, Siemens was always German....both thoroughly synonymous with quality....and yet....crap..

Makes You Wonder... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:57 · Score: 0

Did the Chinese hackers gain access to the "Battle of the Brains" problems prior to the contest?

The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 03:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

>>>"Beware of the yellow peril! Be a patriotic American ...!"

+1 funny. (dark humor)

People who admire FDR always forget this part of his presidency, where he locked-up American citizens and deprived them of their rights to property, trial by jury, free speech, and so on. Why? Simply because these Americans looked like asians. - In many respects FDR was our worst president. I know that's an unpopular view, nevertheless that's what I think.

I hope IF we have another war with the Asian continent (i.e. China) that we do a better job of obeying the Constitution instead of ignoring it.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:13 · Score: 1, Informative

What about the German Americans? You can pin everything on racism all day long, but much of the same distrust of Japanese people were also directed towards people of the same race.
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:15 · Score: 0

There won't be a war with China. They don't need to resort to military action.
Have you been to an American college lately? It varies by region, but you'll notice that about 60% of the students in the important STEM programs are Asian (mostly Chinese, with a smattering of South Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese), and most of them are not American. The same goes for professors. It depends on the school you're considering, but it's typical to have 40% to 50% of the professors coming directly from an Asian nation, even if they received their education in the US.
What's worse, Americans themselves who want at least some sort of an education are avoiding these actually-useful STEM programs, in favor of getting near-useless liberal arts or "business" degrees of various kinds. Other large groups of Americans, mainly black and Hispanics, go out of their way to shun education from their early years.
Within a generation, the vast majority of people in the United States capable of performing math or performing engineering or developing high technology will not be Americans. They will be these Asian students, after they have rising through the ranks of American colleges and corporations, becoming the leadership. And as everyone knows, those who control the American corporations control American politics, as well as exerting huge influence over international relations. So war won't be a necessity, and won't even be in China's best interest, due to how entangled they will have become with the American corporate leadership.
Re:The racist 1940s by crazycheetah · 2010-02-20 04:16 · Score: 1

Goddamn, I'm 22 and don't know shit about history (relative to other topics), but I thought about this as I read the OP. In its own dark way, it's kinda funny...
Re:The racist 1940s by littlewink · 2010-02-20 04:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Chinese immigrants to the USA are far less patriotic (to the USA) than were Japanese immigrants to the USA during WWII. In fact, somewhere between one-third and one-half of Chinese immigrants are already spying/aiding for the Chinese mainland in some way. Ask any sample of Chinese immigrants to the USA about where their loyalties lie. At the very best they are ambivalent.
In a war with China the USA would have serious problems with its internal Chinese population. The lessons of the unjust Japanese imprisonment in WWII would not apply. We would be forced to imprison the Chinese. That would not be a racist act but a reasonable and necessary one.
You have made the mistake of comparing two situations that appear to be similar but that are in fact quite different.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:28 · Score: 0, Insightful

In fact, somewhere between one-third and one-half of Chinese immigrants are already spying/aiding for the Chinese mainland in some way.
Can you provide a better source for this claim than the dark spot between your buttocks?
Didn't think so.
Re:The racist 1940s by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hope IF we have another war with the Asian continent (i.e. China) that we do a better job of obeying the Constitution instead of ignoring it.
You mean as well as the constitution is upheld in the war already being waged on the Asian continent, in respect of imprisoning people the US deem "terrorists"? Most likely we're going to see more loopholes used, akin to "if it's not on US soil, it doesn't matter to the Constitution...".

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:The racist 1940s by Mashiki · 2010-02-20 04:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're saying this like this was a bad thing. We did the same thing in Canada. As a 1st generation descendant of German/Japanese parents let me just say. Given the opportunity at the time, plenty would have been happy to follow the orders of the fatherland and/or the god-emperor to do whatever it takes to kill you from within.

--
Om, nomnomnom...
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

What are you talking about? Everyone knows that whites can't be the victims of racism. Their vast majority of 1.5 billion people (out of 6.7 billion) clearly makes them responsible for all racism and racist behavior.
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:41 · Score: 1

>>>What about the German Americans?
You can't be serious? It's not the same. Almost my entire state consists of German American citizens (Amish, Quakers, Mennonites, et cetera), but my grandparents were not forced out of their homes and locked-up in concentration camps during the war.
The Japanese-Americans were.
And also even if the German-Americans had been rounded-up into camps, does that make it any better? FDR's decision to do that still violates the first ten amendments to the Constitution, as well as the protected rights in the State Constitutions. He should have been impeached for breaking constitutional law, if not during the war, then certainly after it was over. (IMHO). Unfortunately he didn't live long enough.....

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 06:45 · Score: 0, Troll

I live in a community where a large majority of Nisei were. My family understood their plight and stored many of their things (hiding them would have been treason) during the rounding up and shipping out to the Salinas Rodeo (where they were penned overnight like cattle, before being crammed like sardines into trains and shipped to beautiful Nevada.) My best friend's Father was in the 522nd and the man was as patriotic as anyone I ever met. What we did to them was terrible, what they did for us won the war.
Chinese immigrants have been coming here for years, and they've fought in our wars and worked in our intelligence, energy, and defense services. 1/5th of the world is chinese, that's a lot of room for diverse opinions.
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:45 · Score: 1

>>>We would be forced to imprison the Chinese.
Which is an illegal act. We can imprison or deport Chinese citizens, but the Constitution does not allow you to do things like this to chinese-American citizens (like my coworkers and best friend and his wife). The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
Else we would be a lawless society.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by jmrives · 2010-02-20 06:47 · Score: 1

In fact, somewhere between one-third and one-half of Chinese immigrants are already spying/aiding for the Chinese mainland in some way.
Care to enlighten us as to where you got these (albeit, very broad) statistics? Certainly, a carefully conducted study of this "fact" would be very newsworthy.
Re:The racist 1940s by flyneye · 2010-02-20 06:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

We've had most of our dark days and loss of freedom from Wilson onward.
Every president has had a way of pissing off a percentage of the population, but from Wilson onward we lost more freedom than we gained.
Minorities and women not part of the statement, as this is just good sense and necessary to our evolution.
Over time and circumstances, its been Asians jailed, Negroes jailed, Communists jailed,Hippies jailed, Tax protesters jailed, Marijuana smokers jailed and others who just didn't fit the bill. Race is no barrier to being an enemy of the socialist state.
One could say Lincoln was the beginning of the shitstorm. The civil war wasn't mainly about slavery as suggested by safe state sponsored school books, it was about money and states rights. Of course Negroes fell under the money/property heading, but it is wrong to highlight this as the main cause merely to obscure the Fed scrambling for power. Lincoln wasn't particularly non racist, but that is another matter.
Both sides had massive P.O.W. camps for those disagreeable with policy on either side of the Mason/Dixon line.
If we stay constitutional about our wars, we will just defend our borders, keep our financial interests within, and quit policing the world.
We have a lot of ways we've developed over time to do away with in order to start over again. In the interest of my grandchildren to come, I'm all for trashing a lot of legislation, foreign policy and business practices and weather the storm in order to achieve repair. Anyone who is not is part of the problem and should seek other borders to live within where their desires can be met. I value freedom over safety or convenience, if that is flamebait to anyone, so be it. We all know the old saying, and what they deserve.
Personally, if my car has been modified to run faster but wear out sooner, I'd take off the mods and go with factory parts originally engineered to last. Even if it meant the car would be out of service for a while.
As for our national debt, just hand over those , still alive, who have legislated it so ,to work it off. Not part of our original plan and therefore not valid. Note that states rights don't apply to D.C. and other federal holdings, this means constitutional rights. Don't believe me? Just ask any tax protester dragged into court, denied bail and whisked around the country on federal properties while his lawyers tried to locate him.
It's a sick sad government and we are the worse off for it in spite of the lies taught in school. It's easy to blow me off as nuts instead of trying to see my points of view. But ask yourself this, isn't even a broken clock right, twice a day?

--
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:53 · Score: 1

>>>plenty would have been happy to follow the orders of the fatherland and/or the god-emperor to do whatever it takes to kill you from within.
>>>
First off, I suspect your parents would be ashamed to hear you say that. I doubt they are the killers you describe them to be. - Second for those that did commit terrorist acts during WW2, you would capture these American citizens, try them in front of a jury (amendments 5 and 6), and then imprison them. You know - like we're going with that American psychiatrist who went on a firing spree and killed a bunch of soldiers. He may be a nut, but he still has rights.
The Constitution is not just sitting there to look pretty. It's the Supreme Law of the U.S.
To ignore it is to have a lawless society.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by newcastlejon · 2010-02-20 07:57 · Score: 1, Troll

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
You can if you do it in Cuba.

--
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
Re:The racist 1940s by russotto · 2010-02-20 10:39 · Score: 1

Which is an illegal act. We can imprison or deport Chinese citizens, but the Constitution does not allow you to do things like this to chinese-American citizens (like my coworkers and best friend and his wife). The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
You can if you can get the Supreme Court to go along.
I believe Korematsu v. United States is still good (in the technical sense) law.
Re:The racist 1940s by theaveng · 2010-02-20 13:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

"To consider the justices as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions is a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."
"Our justices are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots." Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277
In other words - no the opinion of 9 unelected men does NOT supersede the Law. The Constitution rises above the U.S. government, and the justices are part of that government, therefore while their opinion may have been followed in 1944, as of today the Constitutional Law still reigns supreme over the justices. We are a Republic, not an Oligarchy of 9 old men.
Also Remember: White/colored Segregation was upheld by the Supreme Court in through most of the 1800s and 1900s.
They were wrong then too.

--
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
Re:The racist 1940s by indiechild · 2010-02-20 13:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm ethnic Chinese and was born in Vietnam, but the difference is that I grew up in Western countries, so I never had a chance to be brainwashed and indoctrinated by an oppressive dictatorship. With even teenagers from mainland China, it's already too late, they've been through the schools, they've only known one reality and one truth: China's. They'll come to your country, and they'll help steal military/industrial/trade secrets, they'll help harass and spy on dissidents, human rights activists, Tibetans, Uighurs etc. There are some courageous exceptions (dissidents), but for the most part, this is overwhelmingly true.
This is basically what has been happening ever since Mao. The communists have destroyed a beautiful country and turned it into something truly ugly.
So yes, I'm afraid what littlewink says is true. It's almost certain that China will go to war with the USA and Taiwan within the next 5-15 years. It's as inevitable as the next big stockmarket crash and double-dip recession, aka Great Depression.
My loyalties do not lie with any one country (many would call me a traitor for saying this). I just want to do the right thing -- I'll answer to the truth, not to some arbitrary nationalistic or patriotic agenda. I'm in Australia, which is a close ally to the USA. Once war with China breaks out, I have no doubt that I'll be taunted and spat on in the streets, just like the Nisei were.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 14:14 · Score: 0

Hey, paranoid delusions can be facts too, no matter how highly improbable they seem.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 15:12 · Score: 0

With even teenagers from mainland China, it's already too late, they've been through the schools, they've only known one reality and one truth: China's.
This is fucking lie or just ignorant.
I was raised in China and left there when I was 21. and Now I am back to China and live here. I don't give a damn about the chinese government and don't trust what's said in the news. In fact, many of my chinese friends are joking about the corruption of the government.
so don't open your mouth and spread FUD if you don't know shit about it.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 15:29 · Score: 0

As a fellow Chinese I suggest you go see a shrink as soon as possible. Seriously.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 15:45 · Score: 0

There seems to be some problems with your statements. Basically they are all bullshit. Have a nice day.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 16:02 · Score: 0

I'll answer to the truth, not to some arbitrary nationalistic or patriotic agenda.
Then why spread lies? Face it... you're just spewing the same tired anti-China rant.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 16:20 · Score: 0

All these people denying fact. The pillars are still there, even if they are never acted on.
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 16:45 · Score: 0

We are currently, not hypothetically, at war with several Arab nations. Ethnic Arabs living in the US are also ambivalent about patriotism ("take any sample"). We, in fact, know that many Arabs living on US soil are terrorists working inside our borders. We have several incidents on record of actual US Army soldiers who have killed other US soldiers in the name of their political (including religious) beliefs. By your logic, we should be locking up all Arabs right now. It is reasonable and necessary to a degree no less, and probably much greater, than what you describe with the Chinese. The difference is that the Chinese have not carried out any political attacks on US soil, in the history of the world. The Arabs have a laundry list of such attacks in which they've already successfully killed thousands of American citizens. Yet you seem okay with letting them wander the streets?
Consistency please, otherwise I think everyone knows the real issue here is that you don't like the Chinese. If war were to break out, which is something of a fantasy for anti-Chinese bigots who are happy to ignore the nuclear equation, you may or may not have a problem with the internal Chinese population. But if you try to imprison them for political reasons, you would not only make grand hypocrites of yourselves on the world stage, you'd also have an ethnic civil war on your hands. An angry, embittered Chinese population does not just go home and contemplate suicide like the Japanese would. You've seen the cultural revolution. You've seen Tiananmen. If you start this, the only way you're going to finish it is to become what you hate. Tank-man will have a whole new meaning to the world when it is an M-1 Abrams in the picture.
Re:The racist 1940s by IRWolfie- · 2010-02-21 04:35 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure they were baptists stealing children anyway...
Re:The racist 1940s by metrix007 · 2010-02-21 05:19 · Score: 1

The vast majority are asian..almost 3 billion including india.
whites can and have frequently been the target of racism.

--
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Re:The racist 1940s by Mashiki · 2010-02-27 06:07 · Score: 1

First off, I suspect your parents would be ashamed to hear you say that.

Actually no, feel free to assume, but you're being ignorant. See this is the funny thing about growing up in a mixed family. Even they both realize that there was something that needed to be done. My father grew up in the 1950's where pro god-emperor propaganda still existed among the common folk, and my mother grew up on the east side of the wall before the managed to escape--where on both sides despite the great purge of Nazism people still supported him. Those that did commit terrorist acts in the US and Canada didn't get trial by jury. They got trial by military tribunal, which by the way is the proper way to deal with individuals who attack civilians, infrastructure, etc, acting as undercover agents of a foreign power. If you don't think those rules applied back in WWII on both sides, again you're naive.
In a state of war, civilians committing acts of terrorism don't fall under civilian rights. They're akin to spies if you'd like to brush up on your history.
The Constitution may be the supreme law in the US(much like the Charter these days in Canada), but that doesn't stop people from using it to attack you from within. That's why you have the articles of war.

--
Om, nomnomnom...

That isn't the question at all by Colin+Smith · 2010-02-20 04:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

The question is, who do you get to buy your debts?

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Deleted

Re:That isn't the question at all by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 06:17 · Score: 0

How about we Americans flog our elected officials for getting us into debt in the first place! Lets cleanup our own house before we shove a broom handle up someone else's ass.
Re:That isn't the question at all by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 12:32 · Score: 0

This is a double edged sword isn't it? The US went into China with the hope of selling product to 1 billion customers. They forgot that people are too poor to buy US manufactured goods. They thought about cheap labour in China, and built plants for the Chinese. The Chinese started having better lives, but the government made sure there were no changes to the government. The Americans started buying cheap goods made from their factories in China. The trade deficit between the US and China swelled. The US complained about countries like Canada stealing jobs, but no one ever mentioned US companies building plants in China. The US started running out of money, so China offered the US loans. The US bought more Chinese products with Chinese money, till it was all gone. Then China offered the US more money. US companies realised that Chinese companies can make product much cheaper. Shut down US factories, move them to China. Unemployed Americans, employed Chinese, poor Americans, rich Chinese. Go back and tell me how the free market is the very best for the US again. Go back and tell me how the Republicans are the only choice. Go back and tell me how its only right that bank executives shoud get ginormous bonuses, how the Tea Party is the only choice, why its so important for corporations to have the same or more rights than people. Go back and tell me these things. You won't mind though if I give you a punch for luck though, right? You know, just a little tap on the nose, or you know with a club or something.

What they teach there? by gmuslera · 2010-02-20 04:12 · Score: 1

Social Engineering 101
Exploiting Windows for fun and profit
Deploying trojans
Advanced botnets
Hacking NSA
Hacking Google
And the final exam consist in hacking into Independence Day's Alien mainframe

Re:What they teach there? by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 05:02 · Score: 1

And the final exam consist in hacking into Independence Day's Alien mainframe
You translated incorrectly. That's the entrance exam. Jolly Roger is bonus, though.

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:20 · Score: 0

Massive Nuclear Strike. It's the only way to fight 1.2 Billion people. Why wonder, it's always been our strategy for war with China.

Does this prove that our hackers are better by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:24 · Score: 0

because they didn't get caught?

You Can't Find Me, I'm the Gingerbread Man! by icepick72 · 2010-02-20 04:27 · Score: 1

Of all the computers in all the world, USA investigates and traces attacks to two computers in two schools in China, yet several people with knowledge of the investigation asked for *anonymity* because they are not authorized to discuss the inquiry. Yep they're going to be really hard to track down. Love it.

Re:You Can't Find Me, I'm the Gingerbread Man! by drinkypoo · 2010-02-20 06:15 · Score: 1

Yep they're going to be really hard to track down. Love it.
People with knowledge of the investigation could include just about anyone. Someone who was standing within earshot when it was being discussed is a person with knowledge of the investigation. And since they know damned well they're not supposed to talk about it, they're speaking anonymously. You're making it sound like it was people inside the investigation, which could be true, but isn't necessarily so.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Morons? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:36 · Score: 0

What do these replies have to do with story? Don't trade with China? When they make great products that are cheap? All of you hang wringing apologists for stopping the misperceived threat of Chinese Hegemony may be delusional. China has her own internal contradictions to borrow from the "terrible" Mao which will create enough governors to keep the monster from taking over the world. Plus: the people are really cool. They're like Americans. It's a melting pot of DNA and they are open and friendly and they don't want to chop our heads off for not beleiving what they believe. That's the end of my off topic rant.
What about this story? It's interesting and I'd like some more answers.

Google Search Language Preferences by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:40 · Score: 0

Anyone else notice the change to Search Language Preferences after the Google/China incident? It may just be a coincidence but the "Search for pages written in any language (Recommended)" option is no longer the default or an available option. The only option now is "Prefer pages written in these language(s)" with one of the languages sometimes selected and unselectable by default depending on your "Interface Language" setting or which localized version of Google you visit.

Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-20 04:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

according to several people with knowledge of the investigation who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the inquiry

WTF is wrong with people that they can't shut up?? I see stuff like this all the time, and it boggles my mind that people on the inside are willing to discuss stuff that is likely to at least partially jeopardize the investigation under way. Surely it's not a profit-motive...I can't imagine journalists can pay very much for this kind of information...so what is it?

--
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun

Re:Verbal diarrhea by oldhack · 2010-02-20 06:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

Psssssh. I'll let you in on this, but you gotta keep my name out of it, OK?

--
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by haderytn · 2010-02-20 07:32 · Score: 1

Pssssst.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by oldhack · 2010-02-20 08:00 · Score: 1

Yeah, what?

--
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Erinnys+Tisiphone · 2010-02-20 11:19 · Score: 1

Agreed. This should be kept completely under wraps until there is solid evidence against a particular party and its time to press charges or involve diplomatic agencies.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by indiechild · 2010-02-20 13:58 · Score: 1

It's attention-whoring... like phoning the police hotline during the DC Beltway sniper attacks and dropping a hot tip, then seeing the police and media react.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by tabdelgawad · 2010-02-20 14:23 · Score: 3, Informative

This is not a leak. It's a standard way of releasing information to the public without having to make an official statement/accusation. And the New York Times doesn't pay for information, period. Don't you (and your moderators) read any newspapers?!

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Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-22 10:03 · Score: 1

[...] people with knowledge of the investigation who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the inquiry

This is not a leak. It's a standard way of releasing information to the public without having to make an official statement/accusation.
(1) I was not aware that this is "standard", and I submit that that's pretty fucked up. If some journalist chose to reveal these people's names, then they either have to be fired (for doing something that they were "covertly" authorized to do), or else the investigating organization has to admit that they in fact authorized the leak.
(2) I don't see the benefit of releasing this kind of information to the public, but that's likely just shortsightedness on my part.

And the New York Times doesn't pay for information, period. Don't you (and your moderators) read any newspapers?!
(3) Didn't know that for a fact, but would have guessed it to be the NYT's stance (also, I don't actually believe it, but I suppose that's immaterial to the point at hand).
I have a baby girl and am in my final semester of grad school...you can guess how much newspaper reading I do. In any event, is there an obvious section of the NYT's online edition where it says "we don't pay for information"?

--
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun
Re:Verbal diarrhea by tabdelgawad · 2010-02-22 14:20 · Score: 1

The New York Times ethical standards are here:
http://www.nytco.com/press/ethics.html
In particular see rule 21.
Also, journalists do not reveal their sources. We didn't know the identity of 'deep throat' for close to 40 years despite intense speculation. More recently, journalists went to jail for not revealing the identity of their sources in the Valerie Plame case.
My apologies for the curt response and congratulations on your baby!

--
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-23 15:21 · Score: 1

The New York Times ethical standards are here:[...]
Thanks!

Also, journalists do not reveal their sources.
*Cringe*...I have a tendency (character flaw?) of not taking groups of people at their collective word...so I give "journalists do not reveal their sources" about as much weight as "cops don't take kickbacks or get free blowjobs". It only takes one bad apple

We didn't know the identity of 'deep throat' for close to 40 years despite intense speculation. More recently, journalists went to jail for not revealing the identity of their sources in the Valerie Plame case.
True enough...my concern is that this kind of moral fibre/ethical uprightness is fast waning.

--
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun

Re:Act Of War by pitchaxistheory · 2010-02-20 04:56 · Score: 1

The answer to your question is Fallout 3. But the problem is, where are all the Vaults?? Oh right... Vault-Tec lost it all on Lehman Bros. bonds... We're screwed!... (I jest. I JEST!!)

wow by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:02 · Score: 0

Wow. reading all these comments, it seems like a lot of hidden fears coming to surface. Worries about Chinese dominance may be justified but come on,
what shook me up was the casual by-the-way remark of jailing all Chinese americans plus all the justifications that came after it. Hitler anyone....

Re:Act Of War by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 05:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Simple. You'll buy products from American corporations. Double benefit: on one hand, you rescue American companies out of the economic depression and on the other hand, you make Chinese companies lose.

Where are the factories? Where are the means of production? Where are the steel mills? The U.S. has a lot of rebuilding to do.

You going to boycott the US government? by Colin+Smith · 2010-02-20 05:23 · Score: 2, Informative

Cos China owns trillions of US government bonds, which your income taxes pay for.

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Deleted

Problem with the US - Lazy trains by eternalelegy · 2010-02-20 05:27 · Score: 2, Funny

"Lanxiang, in east China’s Shandong Province, is a huge vocational school that was established with military support and trains some computer scientists for the military.'"

That's the problem with the US nowadays, our trains are always off hauling freight or mucking about with passengers while the Chinese trains are establishing huge vocational schools for CS students.

Shameful.

When fear comes... by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2010-02-20 05:35 · Score: 1

people do irrational things. This is how dictators come to power.

--
New Economic Perspectives

Re:When fear comes... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 06:55 · Score: 0

people do irrational things. This is how dictators come to power.
Well, that and letting your country get conquered by the dictator's country.

Re:Dang by trapnest · 2010-02-20 05:39 · Score: 1

See I was with you, but then your choice of the word "paranoid" threw me off. You're one of -them- trying to sow the seeds of doubt. You won't get through my tin foil!

Re:Act Of War by hackingbear · 2010-02-20 06:09 · Score: 1

Simple! Stop exporting wheat, pork, beef, chicken feet to China. They may have to worry about food again.

Re:Act Of War by Omestes · 2010-02-20 06:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

Or, sweet Jesus, we can work on actually manufacturing our own crap again. Not that I think we ever would stoop that low. Yes, making our own crap would raise costs, but it also would create jobs which would mean more net money to buy crap. But then again someone would have to settle for mere millions (and the intangible of adding to the long term stability of the US) instead of billions and the joy of being able to play the fiddle while the US collapses into a third world nation.

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A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey

Not the *worst* president... by zippthorne · 2010-02-20 06:47 · Score: 1

In many respects FDR was our worst president. I know that's an unpopular view, nevertheless that's what I think.

Of course it's an unpopular view. Woodrow Wilson was just as racist and far more damaging a president that FDR ever was. FDR only screwed up our country. Wilson sowed the seeds of WWII (increasing our enemies by one Japan in the process), the war in Indochina, screwed up domestic race relations, created the Federal Reserve...

--
Can you be Even More Awesome?!

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 06:48 · Score: 0

You sound like North Korea! "Act of War! Act of War!"

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:01 · Score: 0

Well, if we went to war with China, wouldn't you target manufacturing first anyways?

Isn't that the whole strategum of Total Warfare? Destroy your enemies ability to wage war and winning is a matter of time.

That, and seizing assets + annexation etc. Was Hong Kong's return to the Red Machine really all that long ago that we have forgotten the last time we were dependent on china for an unnecessary good that caused human beings harm? It seems we have an opportunity to save ourselves from the Sneakers and Cheap Electronics war of the future by making it cheaper and better ourselves. It doesn't take manpower so much as smarts, look at the innovations coming out of the Japanese Auto industry. We're just placated into being stupid.

Drive car, chow, watch tv, sleep, work, read email, read silly news sites, chow, watch tv, sleep

Let "them" do the hard work, is the placated worker's mantra. And we've been saying it for decades now.

Someone needs to light a fire under our asses to get us moving. War is good at that, but it's also good at getting people killed and causing defecits... *sigh* oh Irony. We develop all this technology to fight a war we don't want to participate in.

Re:Kill all the gooks! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:07 · Score: 0

No, no need to kill them. Just cut the cables connecting them to the rest of the internet. They're so xenophobic anyway, they'd probably be grateful.

HAHA your all commies now by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:14 · Score: 0

hows it feel to be owned by the commies

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 08:16 · Score: 0

With what? I am sure China will stop lending you money to buy all that stuff if we go to war with them. Currently they have the biggest incentive to get us out of the recession as they want their monthly _interest_ payments. Believe it or not, they are the biggest single investor in rebuilding our economy!

If you want to really hurt China, just default on your houses. That way, China's biggest assets will be severely devalued, bringing them into a recession too.

unpopular by bomcha · 2010-02-20 10:41 · Score: 1

Lets suppose it's true about the origin of the attacks...but can we say the US government is also totally without it's guilt???

....Or they're just BSing... by taishi07 · 2010-02-20 13:26 · Score: 1

This is from the Lanxiang school they're talking about =.=; http://zonaeuropa.com/201002b.brief.htm#015

Oh really? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 16:03 · Score: 0

The recent unrest in Tibet and Xinjiang were funded by the CIA. Just part of the continuing effort to keep China off balance. The DL is just a pawn in this power game. With the grab for resources in Central Asia by both China, Russia and the West, it is going to get worse. The cold war never stopped, the Chinese just made it more obvious. Remember the US-based Afghans and Iraqis that are slotted in positions of power by the US occupying forces, you can be sure similar persons are primed and waiting in the US should a regime change be successful.

Imagine how the US public would feel if the Chinese started aiding native Americans, disfranchised minorities in the US and some of the oddball independence movements in the US, say Texas or Hawaii?

As for the quest for democracy, that is the choice of the Chinese people. We have no right to impose that on others. I am a Singaporean living in China and have lived in the US as well. I can tell you I feel safer walking the streets (except for the damn traffic and crazy drivers) and have my children attend school here rather than in the US.

Re:Oh really? by mwu · 2010-02-20 21:12 · Score: 1

CIA and Tibet http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JC26Ad02.html CIA and Xinjiang http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-cia-and-rioting-uyghurs-in-xinjiang.html

Re:Act Of War by commodore64_love · 2010-02-21 14:10 · Score: 1

If we were at war with China, the solution would be simple. Instead of shipping across the Pacific, we'd simply ship across the Atlantic, and buy stuff from Europe, Africa, and India. It might cost a little more to buy from those areas, but the goods will still fit our needs.

And China would be hurt from the sudden lack of income from the US and the EU. It would probably throw them into an economic depression.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2010-02-22 04:33 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

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Two Chinese Schools Reportedly Tied To Online Attacks

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