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Health Insurance When Leaving the Corporate World?
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working at a large company since I got out of college, so I didn't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan. Now I'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own. I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen. Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans, or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had. Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you've had to deal with, or am I making too big a deal of it?"
Move to the UK or another country that cares
Move to any 1st world country not the USA.
There is no step 2.
Good luck. Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.
The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.
and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.
1) Don't get sick
2) Die quickly
I found that the local grocery stores were union and part time workers could get full benefits. After looking at the cost of insurance for my family, I worked as a grocery cashier 15 hours a week (a fun job actually), received full benefits (taking up most of that paycheck) until my wife went back to work where she has the benefits. Otherwise, I would have never left corporate life because of that single issue.
When I was self-employed, I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce. I had to join (and pay the membership fee), and it was still expensive, but nowhere near as bad as if I'd done it all by myself. And don't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them don't care where you live/work as long as you're close enough to be in the same general area :)
Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options. Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage. Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low. Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left. Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.
Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important). Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.
If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.
they'll give us universal healthcare ... oh, wait, nevermind.
If you live where they serve. I've had them for 35 years, my daughter was born in their hospital, wife had multiple surgeries. Get the plan with the highest co-pay and then self-fund an HSA account to cover the copay and other things like eyeglasses. About half the price of the mainline insurance companies and no worries about how much the 80/20 costs will bankrupt you. And yes, small business and self-employed plans are available.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
if you're rich, you have no problem
if you're poor, you have medicaid, and you have no problem
only if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options, and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster above
how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?
i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine. republicans, teabaggers: i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine. BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?
when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO
are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes. This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers. But as the poster has shown, having health insurance tied to your employer obstructs the kind of entrepreneurism that's part of our rapid adaptation.
I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates. It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.
Are you on crack? Or do you just spend your time listening to liars without doing any fact-checking?
Insurance premiums for self-insurance are 100% tax deductible, provided you itemize your deductions and meet the minimum threshold (which is trivial considering how much insurance costs these days) -- they've been that way for decades.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums. They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees. We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone. My family plan was $700/mo.
So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana. It was about $200 a month for a family of 4. It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen. Then it paid 100% above the $10k. The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account. You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money. They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices. But you can use any doctor you want.
What I found is that we shopped around. You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service. Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there. Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.
I got an individual plan from the same provider that my company had been with. It was really pretty simple. Not cheap, but simple.
I'm damned glad that I did, too. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later (she's fine now). We would have been wiped out if not for insurance.
the no
If he didn't try to recruit you, then he isn't really in Amway.
I'm sorry, I missed the bit where you had constructive advice to offer to the poster.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I don't know if you're able to move or not, but the situation isn't the same in every state. Maybe you could move to Hawaii, for example.
It might be overkill, but if you really want to go out on your own, that could be a path forward.
The business model of the healthcare industry can explain why it's difficult for individuals to obtain policies.
Note, this is not flame bait, just what I understand about the facts. The healthcare industries are in biz to make money - your claims are their losses, so if you rely on a plan that is subsidized wholly by the healthcare company, you're more likely to have troubles than, for example, a policy under an plan in which the company is "self insured" -- self insured means that the individual company has a pool of funds that pays claims and the healthcare company (ie: Blue Cross) is the "servicer" on their behalf. Under that scenario, and in my own personal experience, you are less likely to have troubles.
60 Minutes recently did an interesting segment on this, which included former employees ("Doctors") of large healthcare companies who came forward about some of the internal politics of this - and the horrors of the policies that favor denied claims, etc.
Notwithstanding other really good advice and info here, of course.
Also, if you'd like to see another viewpoint and comparison of the healthcare industries of the world, see Michael Moore's "SiCKO" -- tho there is obviously a bias there, I found it quite interesting.
This is partly why this so-called "public option" has people up in arms. It's (mostly) about the money :-)
I think that's great that you're looking to get out on your own; I wish you the best of luck.
I'll tell you a fact from a Canadian perspective of a middle class person. For all the complaining about the "death panels" we actually don't have here (vs. your for-profit insurance companies you guys do have) and saying that we have to wait forever (which we don't, prioritized: if you need it you get it *now*), when the average Canadian looks at the situation the average US'ian is in: we feel HORROR. God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?
Shh.
Look into any kind of groups you have membership in especially professional associations. For example IEEE members (I believe after a year of membership) can get group health insurance, although I have not looked into lately it it may no longer be the case. Also organizations like AAA (yes the auto club) have discount prescription programs. Basically look at any group you belong to see if they have leveraged the power of their membership base to negotiate rates with insurance companies.
My boy, my boy!
Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?
I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect. Depending on where you go of course, but your options are probably quite limited.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Here's why I didn't vote for John McCain: In 2008, a rawther imperialist ideology called "neoconservatism" ruled the GOP, and sticking with the GOP would have led to spending more money on foreign wars for oil. There were suggestions that neocon "defense" spending would eventually cost tax-paying Americans more than starting a savings account and buying high-deductible individual health insurance. The "tea party" movement against government spending in general didn't start until after President Obama took office.
Most countries won't allow people over a certain age to immigrate, to prevent that exact situation. They have enough elderly sucking off the government tit already. They don't need broken-down old foreigners who have contributed their lifetime's worth of taxes to some other government, dropping by for the freebies.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Small group insurance is _much_ better than individual because group policies -- even for just two people -- must be issued. Individuals can be turned away but groups cannot. At least that's the law in California.
I'm Canadian and very biased, so I'll just say that up front.
Move to Canada.
Canada is capitalist. Canada has universal health care. Canada's not going to take too much out of you through taxes; if they did, we wouldn't have the economy we do. Canada's tax code is fairly similar to the US, and probably fairly less complicated (and there are many, many deductions available to businesses). And you know that Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.
Of course, you'll have to go through the immigration process to do so, though if you're running a fairly successful business you should have no trouble (I believe there's a business owner class for immigration).
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
There are other professional groups that have insurance programs.
For instance, the ACM has insurance programs, though I don't know much about the cost or coverage. The IEEE has a similar set of programs, though it does not look like they have a straight health insurance offering. If you are going on your own, it might help to start a formal business - you might be able to get a small employer program.
You will spend a fair amount on medical care for kids, even if you just do the normal preventive care. The cost of a whole-family plan will reflect that. If I had a young family now, I would seriously consider a high-deductible plan. You pay for most of your own care, but the insurance is there in the event that you have major expenses.
Floating face-down in a river of regret...and thoughts of you...
These responses of move to "XYZ" or move out of the US that are modded "insightful" is simple flamebait and does not help the questioner or add anything new to the discussion.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Pfft. So in your view the whole world is 'left', and the US is 'centre' or something?
If you must stay in the USA try the following: kill and eat the hearts of republicans (if you can find any that have one). Then you will gain their powers and be able to ignore your health problems until they go away. Do not move to Canada, their hockey team is bad. I recommend Switzerland or Sweden. If you don't like white people, try Singapore, Morocco, or Columbia. They all have better health care than the US. If you are picky about a country, check the WHO website. They have a list of countries with good health care.
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse, lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Weird, I was pretty sure that dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal regardless of party affiliation or position on the political spectrum. Granted, how to *fix* the system is a polarizing issue, but whether or not the US system sucks balls doesn't seem to be up for debate these days.
Though, as an aside, some people actually do leave the US because of healthcare. Many more would like to, but can't afford to move any more than they can afford their healthcare premiums (some of my friends fall into the latter category).
These responses of move to "XYZ" or move out of the US that are modded "insightful" is simple flamebait and does not help the questioner or add anything new to the discussion.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
so then what is your advice? or is it just "NO"?
are often exactly the sort of lower middle class folk who would benefit immensely from socialized medicine
its like in the town hall meetings last summer, the old man who stands up and yells "keep your socialism away from my medicare"
it would be hilarious if it weren't so horribly tragic
i think it just boils down to incredible, horrible levels of high propaganda: the government is out to get you! the government is YOURS. it serves YOU. really
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I have a individual (not group, not employer offered) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible. Every month I put some money (about the difference between this plan's premium and a average premium plan) into my HSA account. Although the deductible is high, I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year. The plan gives 100% coverage after deductible on everything covered (no coinsurance), and many things (annual checkups) are totally free even before the deductible.
In other words, in years when I have high medical expenses, my total costs work out about the same as a high premium, low deductible plan. However, in years when my medical expenses are low, I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums. The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings, so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible (which keeps their costs low as well, unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low).
And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE. When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well. It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA, but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.
Bottom line is that I'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan, and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free, and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible, I still get good coverage, lower my taxes, and earn some interest on the money. The only time I wouldn't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time, especially prescription drugs which aren't discounted as much in this plan.
As someone who's spent too much of the last decade out of work, everything you hear is true - like in Florida, over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04, when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an "individual" plan, and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed, in two jumps, a ->ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.
Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans?
mark "until we techno-peasants finally wake up, pull out the torches and
pitchforks, and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail, tarred and
feathered, and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer"
Individual health insurance is an absolute joke in the US, especially for family care. If you do 'go it alone' and you don't make a ton of money (well into six figures) then you might as well just skip to the end, flush your cash down the toilet and file for Medicaid. You will end up there eventually.
Considering you have a family to look out for, you need need NEED to find a cooperative or small business owners group to buy into that provides benefits. It will still be very expensive, but you *will* be ruined if you go it alone or go without it.
$15000/year is the bare minimum. By 'bare minimum' I mean a plan with topline 'coverage' numbers that actually translates into additional money you don't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.
A year ago, I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death. 8 hours of emergency surgery, other terrible stuff. I blew through the deductible in the first hour of surgery. ($2000) That's what rainy day savings is for. What followed though is actually worse.
-Hospital's bills were rejected by the Insurance company because they didn't call to notify the Insurance company. (While I was bleeding to death, the hospital was required to have called to get approval AND THEN started saving my life) They were going to send all of the Hospital's bills to us. And they will too. I ONLY found out about this because I checked to see that the claims were getting processed. If I didn't check, the insurance company would have closed the window on the possibility of getting the claim paid and then the entire invoice of the hospital's services would have come to me.
-Despite the paying the advertised 'maximum deductible' of $2000, there were additional costs that I had to pay. How is that possible? The insurance company categorizes medical expenses as they see fit. So for any given bill, they can choose to cover costs as they see fit. They satisfy their marketing claims and still passed another $2000 in stuff they wouldn't cover onto me.
I put as many hours into not getting screwed by the insurance company as I did in physical therapy. This is how screwed up American health insurance really is and $15000/yr is the bare minimum.
I am mpapet and I approve this post.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
The reality is that the majority of people are happy with the quality of health care available in the US.
Ahhh, but now you're mincing words. I'm sure the *quality* of healthcare in the US is very good. I don't think anyone has disputed that.
What some people are unhappy with is the cost
*Some* people? Try *most* people. Cost is a *huge fucking problem* in the US healthcare system. It's not just a huge problem, it's *the* problem. And it leaves millions upon millions either uncovered or undercovered. Additionally, availability is a huge problem, as cost makes coverage unavailable for some, and for others, even if they have coverage, they may not be able to avail themselves of it, as it may be canceled, coverage for procedures may be denied, etc.
And these issues are systemic. Which is why most Americans, regardless of political affiliation, are *not* happy with the US healthcare system, and will freely admit that it's deeply flawed and needs to be fixed somehow. The only question is how (and that's a really big, complicated question).
I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance. The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.
I too had a family (3 kids and a wife). I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $1200/month and considered it a steal. (Although I was not affected, I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost.) The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.
After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna (deductibles were $5k/person; $15K/family) and opened an HSA. I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year (note, this is not a FSA!). For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill, we didn't need any hospitalization, and only used a hospital once for my daughter's broken foot. For the duration I was with Aetna's high-deductible plan, they paid nothing, but my cost was only $612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.
Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained. You still end up paying a lot (all?) out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate. The same applies to prescription drugs. This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry. You go to your doctor and he charges you $100 for the office visit and $300 for an x-ray. But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $65 and $125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you've reached your $5K deductible. If you've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars. If you don't have any insurance (or the doctor doesn't take your plan) then you pay the whole retail price ($400 in this example).
We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.
In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.
I hope this helps.
The insurance companies hold all the cards.
Look at how the rates are climbing even as their profits are.
They are squeezing the last drop from your wallet because they know a single payer system is inevitable.
If you're going to be sick, you'd better not do it in the 'States. Its no place for you if you flinch at the thought of suing somebody who's only sin was being weak once (as we ALL are at least 15% of our lives.)
Other countries' health care systems may not be perfect but at least they exist.
The 'States have nothing even resembling a humane health care system.
What they have is health-don't-care systems.
Health care for profit is an oxymoron.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The doctors could even make house calls if you had a sick child. A wonderful system, and about half the cost of our monstrosity.
Think global, act loco
I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect. Depending on where you go of course, but your options are probably quite limited.
Generally, quality first world countries, like Canada, let middle class folks in under four classifications:
1) Job offer. How difficult would it be to get a job up there anyway? Especially if you make it clear you're not looking for a long term career or high pay? In the USA you desperately need full time not part time so as to get medical insurance, not so in more advanced countries.
2) Skills. Certain job titles on the resume equals you are in. No need for job offer. They were all highly technical last time I checked, with some skilled trades. Expect the resume/background/reference check from hell for this one.
3) Education. If I recall correctly, you got SO MANY POINTS for a masters degree in Canada, it was pretty much no questions asked you made the threshold. Maybe the points rewarded and/or threshold are different now, and its different at every country.
4) Money. They wanted a fraction of a mil in a cashiers check and they gave it back after a couple years or if you get kicked out. Sounds impossible, but if you're an old guy with an IRA and a house, or a small business owner, maybe not all that unreasonable... Hurry up as the value of the dollar collapses.
So, the slashdot groupthink is exclusively "job offer oriented" but in practice there are a couple other ways to get in.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
I know you're just trying to be funny, but it just doesn't work if you know the history. Henry J. Kaiser was a California industrialist who created his empire doing construction. During WWII, he brought mass-production and organizational skills to shipbuilding that allowed him to produce a ship in three days. He created Kaiser Permanente to to provide inexpensive quality health care for his workers.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
"how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?"
1. Excessive pork: Cornhusker medicare, the "Louisiana Purchase", etc.
2. Insurance "mandatory purchase" likely to hit middle class. The same people lack coverage now will be forced to buy what they already know they can't afford.
3. Federally-subsidized abortion funding. Some are 100% in favor, some are 100% opposed. It's a polarizing issue, no doubt.
4. Taxation on "Cadillac" health plans; looks like a "redistribution of wealth" scheme directed largely at the middle class.
5. Special union exemptions from the "Cadillac tax". What happens when an employer has both union and non-union employees and offers the same plan to both? Oops.
6. No significant relief from the downside of relying on employer-sponsored insurance. Most of the population gains nothing under the House or Senate bills.
7. No increased competition for the healthcare industry, the insurers, the lawyers, etc. This means no price breaks will be coming anytime soon.
8. No public option. Combine this with #7 above, and we have a plan that offers less than nothing, at excessive cost.
The Democrats placed themselves in the position. Most of the time, compromise between Democrat and Republican yields a product that nobody likes. But in this case, the Republicans were ignored because they lacked the votes to do anything. Therefore, Democrats negotiated with themselves and their campaign contributors (the healthcare industry and insurers) and this is what they came up with. Strategically, it make sense to force the Democrats to play the lousy hand that they dealt themselves. Hold them accountable -- on election day.
The grass on the other side of the Atlantic doesn't seem green at all. Looks more like rotten.
The grass was denied individual insurance due to pre-existing conditions, and the employer had to drop coverage because the costs of premiums increased from $5000 in year 2000 to over $16000 this year.
Meanwhile, Congress sat on it's hands and did almost nothing to help deal with the costs which were spiraling out of control.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
1) Make sure yuo don't smoke/drink. And by drinking I mean not even the occasional sip of wine during a random holiday once/year. If you say "yea i have a sip of wine during christmas" you will be flagged as a drinker and your rates go up. It's total BS but it happens...so just say no. If you used to smoke 15 years ago...yea don't mention that. In reality it won't affect your health, but the insurance companies will screw you on the rates.
2) Make sure nobody in your family has anything that is hereditary. And by making sure I mean don't go asking. Ignorance is bliss...and saves you money.
3) If you've had surgery within the past two years your rates will be high. If the surgery is something that leaves your life totally unchanged (e.g. you may have been stabbed, and the surgery was purely cosmetic) then after two years you can re-apply for health insurance at a lower rate.
Realize that healthcare is going to be expensive, but not outrageous. I looked at some healthplans for myself, personally, and the rates were the same as going with a group plan from work....the personal health insurance is much better.
Depending on where you work (more so in small companies) the plan the company offers is actually a rip off. One company I worked for had the mother of the owner as the Agent. She made sure the plan offered was a poor plan with a high premium. The reason she did this is because health insurance agents make a good monthly commission. A 100 person company can easily give a health insurance agent around $2000-$3000 a month payout. So other then getting denied health insurance you should be able to get a better deal going at it on your own. I know this because I used to sell health insurance and saw the commissions paid out.
I had surgery under two years ago. As soon as my two year mark is up I plan on going personal. Same rate ($160/month), better insurance.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
Please, please, tell the Europeans about this. Our media try all the time to convince us that private is the best and socialised healthcare is crap.
People complain about our healthcare system all the time, they don't realise how worse it can be. The private corporations are taking over. We still have a solid healthcare system, but stuff like public-private contracts are rising, with disastrous financial consequences for the State, and loss of service quality. Now they're talking about giving the freedom to opt out of the public system, or choosing your private provider at the expenses of the State. If we don't stop this madness we'll be like the USA in a few years.
If you can't afford to help your countrymen get health care, how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time?
The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending is that it doesn't make any fucking sense.
If you have prescriptions or a chronic condition like diabetes, move to somewhere with socialized medicine (seriously). If yuo're pretty healthy, give the HSA a shot.
Here's the thing about healthcare - it's only stupid expensive if you're uninsured. That sounds odd, but it turns out that if you don't get negotiated rates with providers, they will charge you an outrageous amount. Often the "rack rate" for a procedure is between 3 and 10 times what large payers like Anthem have negotiated. A $2000 exploratory ultrasound in the hospital might only be $250-$300 allowable charges once Anthem applies their discount. Wart removal? $200 rack, $40 negotiated.
The HSA has two parts - you pay for your "routine" healthcare, but at the Anthem (or whomever) discounted rates. Often you get a physical for no charge each year. If you mess yourself up, or you contract some serious problem, you pay out up to your deductible (usually $3000-4000 for an individual) and - this is the good part - the insurance company picks up 100% of your bills after that. And for all this, your premiums will be about half what they would be under a co-pay plan, plus you get to put away money tax free.
I'll tell you, If you get hit by a bus, that 80/20 plan you have with your employer will eat you alive. It's very simple to rack up $100k in medical bills for a major life event.
Now, it's not perfect. As an individual, your insurer has the chance each year to decide you're too expensive and cancel your ass. (This is where group policies are better, but for healthy people will double your premium) Also, there is no defined prescription coverage - you pay what the insurer would have paid. For "regular" prescriptions, it's often LESS than the oh-so-advertised $4/prescription that many chains have now. For name-brand drugs, though, you could be in for serious costs. So if you have maintenance meds, check to see what the insurer's negotiated rates are before you jump.
Personally, I like the HSA. I get to get whatever care I want, I pay discounted rates for what I consume, and if I have a stroke or a heart attack my maximum out of pocket costs are going to be capped pretty low. And those costs - it turns out - I get to legally hide from the IRS if I'm a saver. Quite honestly - if you and your family are healthy - you can likely cover your whole family, plus the maximum IRS deduction - for the same amount as a group plan would have cost. After two or three years of being healthy, you should have enough in your HSA account to cover practically any major medical catastrophe with little to nothing out of pocket.
And, hey, isn't that really what insurance is about? Protecting you against the major loss?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The resistance to it (outside of pure ideological) is coming mostly from people seeing how other federally run programs work or, more accurately, don't work. The US has tons of government "things" that just don't work, are a big fat waste of time and money, say for instance, the entire federal department of education, and the war on some drugs. We got by swell when the fed dept edu didn't exist.
As to medical, as an example, talk to some older combat vets how their federally run health care has been handled. For every one good story you'll hear ten horror stories. For instance, I have a good friend who had to wait over *thirty years* for the government to admit that yes, he did in fact have pretty nasty dioxin poisoning from agent orange. He then got a lot of back disability and some proper care. Not like his obvious bad chloracne he had the whole time was any clue to the docs there...
Health coverage in the US used to be cheap and affordable for most, even with low paying crappy jobs. I mean I distinctly remember this. I'll skip prices, mostly because you won't believe me, and just relate hours worked, 5 hours a week at a lower paid blue collar job covered it fully. Not mid middle class or higher, lower near entry level wages. It changed to way more expensive after medicare and medicaid got started.
We could stand some health care reform here, but European or Canadian styled just isn't going to work very well. And especially in this economy where they have been hell bent for leather to kill off wealth creation manufacturing jobs. No money=I don't care how many laws they pass, they won't be able to afford it. The US is *already* freeking bankrupt now as it is. Just *servicing* the debt we have now is hugemongous. We just don't need a single penny more government expense. We need to get a handle on that before we go thinking up more new ways to spend money. We need real wealth creation JOBS as the first ten priorities before we need anything else from the feds. Not service jobs, not more government employees, solid real wealth CREATION jobs.
Cheaper healthcare here could be garnered a number of ways, right off the bat, open up the dang medical schools, get those costs down, and start pumping out GPs, and get them in little towns all over, so people don't have to rely on expensive hospital visits for minor stuff. Maybe come up with a new classification for entry level minor care doctor that is an easier and cheaper schooling option, a first call care guy. Get more nurse practioners out there, which are similar. Open up insurance to more competition. Open up the generic drugs. Open source ANYTHING that uses one penny tax dollars for research. Make that open source viral. Stop letting the pharmcos get away from shifting one minor molecule on drugs to get perpetual patent extensions.
Stuff like that. I even thought a big national daily lottery with half the proceedings going to pay out the winners and the other half to fund open source medical research would be spiffy. I bet they could rake in tens of millions of bucks daily just with that, all voluntary. How about X-prizes for actual *cures* instead of symptom treatments?
Well, frankly, I don't want socialized medicine..I don't want the govt. telling me what Dr. I can see, or what tests meds the Dr can give me (possibly based on my age, etc).
That's not how it works. "Socialized medicine" means government funded. It doesn't mean politicians make health decisions. What right-wing talk radio wind-bag gave you that retard idea?
I do wish we could go back to how medicine was a few years back
The profit motive guarantees that won't happen. The best you can do is attempt to fix it by removing the profit motive.
I thought making profit was a corporations job, not the governments?
The government has no incentive to save money. There are no fat bonuses waiting for government employees who excel at saving money.
Now, if you were talking about a for-profit corporation, I'd see your point. They'd happily deny you coverage if they see the slightest chance of weaseling out of it just to improve their bottom line.
The government has plenty of incentive to save money.
Healthcare costs are rising faster than GDP across the western world, it's either sve money, or increase taxes, which is a sure fire way of losing the next election.
There's a hell of a lot of money wasted on people who are going to die in the near term anyhow, sure it's tough to say that we can't afford to keep granny going, but there's got to be some ratioinale behind it all or all you end up doing is continually patching up the same crumbling sand castle.
I live in Australia, we have socialised medicine and I can go and see any doctor I damn well want, who will prescribe me what ever I need*. The government simply pays for it, you know like a health insurer but cheaper.
*over prescription is a serious problem, foremost it is the leading cause in developing super-bugs or anti-biotic resistant strains. Doctor know this, they also understand the human body has a very good immune system so many problems will clear themselves with bed rest or another non-chemical procedure (like certain types of exercise).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Citation needed.
If that is true, you are in bigger trouble maintaining a purely private health system. With public health insurance you have reduced operating costs due to no need for marketing, sales, corporate bonuses or dividends. With private health insurance you have the same costs plus marketing, sales, corporate bonuses and dividends. Pay attention to the last one, dividends, the primary drive of any private company is to deliver higher dividends (plus higher divs equal a higher bonus) so they can only do this in one of two ways, reduce costs or increase prices. Given a monopoly over distribution be it natural or artificial there is no impediment to raising prices.
So public health is cost + administration. Public health is cost + administration + sales + marketing + (dividends + bonus > last year).
I pay A$750 a year for complete cover (this is the Medicare levy from my tax, shock horror it's a separate line item on my return). How much is your employer paying, remember this may as well be taken directly from your wages as it's not coming out of the kindness of the employers heart (Read: if they could get away with not providing it they would).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
IMHO Americans really need to get past the solialist bogeyman that is preventing the implementation of a sane health system.
UHC here in Australia costs 1.5% tax on income, I can see whatever doctor I like, often without an appointment. The doctor prescribes whatever tests/pills I need without input from an accountant. I never have to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, nobody cares if I have a pre-existing illness, if I travel to Europe I get reciprocal care from their governments at no cost to me other than said 1.5% tax. I have statistically better medical outcomes than a US citizen and never have to worry about medically induced bankruptcy. Currently government sponsered doctors are visiting every workplace in the country to offer free health checks as part of the preventative care provided by UHC.
I'm single with grandkids, I earn well above average wage and a back of the envolope calculation says my 1.5% covers 5-6 other Aussies I have never met. However I'm more than happy and proud to pay above my fair share since when I was a young dad the same system looked after my chronicly asthmatic son during the times he needed a hospital bed and specialist care, it also paid for his medicine and saved me from certain bankruptcy.
US citizens already pay more in tax per head for Medicare/Medicaid than Aussies pay for a full blown UHC. I think this is mainly due to the army of paper pushers the US employs to console ignorant people who think of socialised medicine as a government handout.
I'm not saying our system is perfect but it's run by health proffesionals and is demonstratably light years ahead of the US. It is supported by 80% of Aussie voters. It recieves true bipartisan support from politicians, any politician who dared to suggest going back to the previous US style system we had in the 70's would find himself unemployed at the next election.
In the end I really don't care what the US does with health system but having experienced both fully privatised and socialised health care my impartial advise would be to upgrade to a 21st century UHC system and ignore the corporate propoganda that is telling you socilaist death panels will kill your grandma to save a buck.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The problem is, at least in the UK- presumably the same elsewhere, governments are getting ever more sloppy, coming up with new schemes that no one wants or gives a shit about, the schemes always over-run and end up costing more, so money has to be found and is taken from elsewhere.
So it's not that they have to make a profit, it's simply that they have to take money from the important services, to pay for their fuck-up pet projects.
So by "saving money", what they mean is that they're taking money from things people do want, to give to 0.0001% of the population some shitty little scheme that allows them to get away without having to work for a living like everyone else or something similar to that- that's the general pattern in the UK at least.
I hope your son carries a DNR on him, because that's what a responsible uninsured person would do.
Your son chooses not to carry insurance. If he has an accident, like say FRACTURING HIS ANKLE, and that fracture throws a bloodclot, which leaves him screaming in frantic pleading agony for a while before he passes out from the pain, then some spendthrift schmuck might call 911 and get him an ambulance.
Have you priced an ambulance ride followed by ER treatment lately? The last time one of MY INSURED and therefore RESPONSIBLE children ended up in the ER -- no ambulance ride mind you -- two hours of occassional treatment, a grand total of 10 minutes with a doctor, came to more than $3,000, paid for by my money.
But your clumsy, irresponsible blood-clot-throwin' welfare-queen son, just racked up at least 10, probably more like 20 grand of debt. You know what he's gonna do? He gonna declare bankruptcy and stiff that hospital on that bill, cause twenty-something kids who can't find a real job don't have 20 grand laying around. Then MY TAXES, MY MONEY are gonna get pulled in to cover the slack because your boy doesn't want to get up and go to work in the morning.
So, if he wants to redeem himself and stay responsible, he can at least carry a DNR rejecting care and demanding that the ER doc let him die screaming and solvent.
Wake the hell up, man. You're too old to keep buying this crap. Your twenty-year-old kid didn't wisely negotiate medical care with the hospital and force them to alter their billing practices. He was the recipient of some form of charity, but you're too thick-headed and vain to admit it to yourself.
And I'm glad he was. I'm glad he got the care he needed, and I don't mind that some of my taxes probably went to pay for it. I don't mind my taxes paying for your boy because one, I've got a working heart, and two, I understand the health of the herd affects my health too. A sick cow in a healthy herd will eventually make the whole herd sick, so I don't mind keeping your boy in good health, because in doing so I deny sickness a place to take hold in the herd I live in.
Let me put that in plainer terms for the benefit of the slow. If the busboy at your restaurant is sick, then you're about to be.
But hey, John, as someone right there beside you, let me tell you about your health. You ain't as young as you used to be, and you can feel it. You wake up slower in the morning, but you don't sleep as well. Stuff breaks, and it takes longer to fix. Trying to stay in shape gets harder and harder, and no matter how hard you work, you're still losing ground. You don't quite hear as well as you used to, but no one notices it yet. You ain't seeing quite as good, but you ain't gonna let on. You've had that scary moment when you couldn't quite catch your breath, even when you know you should have already.
We ain't even gonna talk about your prostate yet, are we? :-)
We're playing a good game, we got everyone fooled, but we get the scent in the wind. Dying ain't a theoretical possibility like it was when we was 17. Well, we think we got everyone fooled. Our wives know it. Well, mine does at least. Why do I get the feeling you're divorced?
Cancer. Heart attack. Diabetes. Stroke. That's what you and I got to look forward to John, and it's as scary as hell, looking down the barrel of words like that. Diapers and Dentures will eventually get us all.
Ain't it time we put down the macho bullshit and see if we can't take care of our kids yet? Two or three more decades, you and I are both gonna be gone, but our kids will still be here. Ain't it time we find a way to give them the same level of care we'd give to THE DAMN ANIMALS IN THE BARN?!
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
As layed out in my post "I'm alright Jack", frankly I don't give a flying fuck if ideologues like you refuse to listen and demand your god given right to pay twice the price for half the service.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.