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Microsoft Wins Windows XP Downgrade Lawsuit

CWmike writes "A federal judge has dismissed a year-old lawsuit against Microsoft over alleged antitrust violations for the 'downgrade' rules it set for Windows Vista and XP. The order put an end to the lawsuit filed by Emma Alvarado in February 2009. In her original complaint, she accused Microsoft of coercing computer makers into forcing consumers who wanted to run Windows XP to first buy Windows Vista, or later, Windows 7, before they were allowed to downgrade to XP. The judge rejected Alvarado's accusations, saying that the plaintiff had not proved Microsoft benefited from the downgrade practices that it created and that OEMs implemented."

203 comments

  1. How? by leetrout · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not a lawyer but how do you not prove that they benefited by having OEMs sell the newer version of their software before allowing a downgrade path?

    1. Re:How? by wizardforce · · Score: 1

      The judge rejected Alvarado's accusations, saying that the plaintiff had not proved Microsoft benefited from the downgrade practices that it created and that OEMs implemented."

      Yeah really... Microsoft isn't doing this for the good of their customers at Microsoft's expense after all.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    2. Re:How? by LostCluster · · Score: 1

      You fail to submit such proof to the judge, and even though that should be easy to prove, you lose. This sounds more like this was the point the plaintiff's side ran out of money to fund the case.

    3. Re:How? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      How did they benefit? It's a lot easier to make the case that the end user benefits for actually recieving two (non-concurrent) licenses for the price of a single license, given that the old software has been discontinued. I don't think the OEM price for Vista or Win7 is any different from XP, and the new versions are the replacements for the old - frankly they weren't required to offer an XP option at all (except by the oft-derided free market pressure that was upon them, of course - nothing bad to say about free markets when they help you out eh?), or any form of downgrade. You don't see Apple offering a free downgrade option from Leopard to Tiger, do you? Of course not, ordinarily the idea is absurd. The only difference is that this upgrade was not well-received, and it was offer a downgrade or lose customers.

      Since they weren't even required to continue selling XP at all, how the hell can you argue that selling a license that includes a free license for XP is anything but a value-add for the customer?

      I have a hard time wrapping idea around the concept of forcing someone to sell something they don't want to sell. The idea is absurd. It's very mafia-ish at the very least.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:How? by HermMunster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are a lot of ways they benefit. One by having mechanisms built into Vista that patrol the user that weren't there in XP that were rejected by XP users when they released WGA. The next is that they actually denied consumers the choice even though consumers asked for it and in the end the only way to get it was to pay for the OS twice (once for Vista and once for XP). OEMs aren't just the big boys such as the royal OEMs.

      This person's failure was obviously her failure of knowing the law or getting adequate legal council. Or Microsoft has deep pockets that get judges all hot and wet.

      The OEMs were forced to sell Vista and were told not to allow XP. Microsoft's approach to forcing Vista was systematic. It isn't hard to see what they had done over the past two years. Those actions could only be taken by a monopoly in the manner they were, and then again only by a monopoly with something to gain. Microsoft had been directing Royal OEMs to remove support for XP in the BIOS tables and as well had been telling hardware vendors not to provide drivers for XP (sound, wireless, etc). They didn't direct this in this manner without some plan and thus benefit to themselves.

      Really, it isn't hard to understand that users wanted X product but were forced to buy V product and then buy X product afterwords. When resellers said they were not able to comply and that Microsoft had discontinued their right to purchase the X product and then systematically denied support, and then lied about the availability of product keys. That's coercion of all parties--to say the least. When you consider Microsoft came up with more product keys after the netbook craze began you can see they were manipulating and coercing OEMs and thus consumers.

      If I were this person I'd refile (as I'm sure the case didn't go to trial) and then subpoena all the OEMs and their communications in preparation of the Vista release. I'd be willing to bet there's some real telling details in those correspondences.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    5. Re:How? by wizardforce · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have a hard time wrapping idea around the concept of forcing someone to sell something they don't want to sell. The idea is absurd. It's very mafia-ish at the very least.

      A computer should be separate from the software; as such a customer should never be compelled to buy a computer conditional on also buying the software on the device. Of course this is already covered under US antitrust law as illegal tying even if it is rarely if ever enforced.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    6. Re:How? by RobertM1968 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How did they benefit? It's a lot easier to make the case that the end user benefits for actually recieving two (non-concurrent) licenses for the price of a single license, given that the old software has been discontinued. I don't think the OEM price for Vista or Win7 is any different from XP, and the new versions are the replacements for the old - frankly they weren't required to offer an XP option at all (except by the oft-derided free market pressure that was upon them, of course - nothing bad to say about free markets when they help you out eh?), or any form of downgrade. You don't see Apple offering a free downgrade option from Leopard to Tiger, do you? Of course not, ordinarily the idea is absurd. The only difference is that this upgrade was not well-received, and it was offer a downgrade or lose customers.

      Since they weren't even required to continue selling XP at all, how the hell can you argue that selling a license that includes a free license for XP is anything but a value-add for the customer?

      I have a hard time wrapping idea around the concept of forcing someone to sell something they don't want to sell. The idea is absurd. It's very mafia-ish at the very least.

      That's weird... I just realized something... and maybe this is the problem:

      "Back in the day" many OEMs were selling the XP Downgrade at an additional cost. Nowadays, it seems one can buy a machine with Vista/Win7 or XP (with a Vista or Win7 license included) at the same price.

      Perhaps that is the problem with this suit (or part of it) - nowadays there is no extra charge. When the lawsuit was initiated, virtually everyone (due to Microsoft per their claims) was charging an extra fee for the downgrade license.

      Just two months ago, I purchased 4 XP machines for a client. They were the same price as the identical hardware with Vista or Win 7. They came with Vista restore disks but XP pre-installed. And a free upgrade coupon for Win7 (which was honored, btw)... meaning, for the price of one OS, it's come with XP pre-installed, Vista restore disks, and Win 7 upgrade on it's way in the mail (for the cost of S/H). (These were for Lenovo ThinkCentres)

      A year and a few months ago, the machine would have been an extra $40-80 for the "downgrade" to preinstalled XP.

      Perhaps they had a hard time proving it because there isn't anything available online to help them prove it now. Or they were checking the wrong manufacturers and didnt find any that still may be charging extra.

    7. Re:How? by Slashbotter · · Score: 0

      Yes they should refile the law suit... the judge was incompetent fool!

      I'd fully back it... What Microscum has done is use its Monopoly position to force consumers into paying and funding crap upgrades that they shouldn't have been forced into buying licenses for!

      When the previous OS XPsp3/64 not only offered better privacy and less spyware! it also had a far better application performance, customization, third party shell extensions, and less design retardation and crap as piss changes made for idiots scared by functionality and customization, thus allowing Microsuck to get away with not providing such things, and thus giving them more to offer in another few years for the next inevitable shit upgrade.

    8. Re:How? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      Although the license fail to explicitly state it, it appears to be Apple's policy to allow downgrades. If you want to upgrade an old mac that will not run the newest OS, and contact Apple they are likely to have you buy the latest version, and then provide the older version. That is at least what I have seen happen in the past.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    9. Re:How? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      in the end the only way to get it was to pay for the OS twice (once for Vista and once for XP)

      Except that once you've bought Vista, the downgrade to XP was free.

    10. Re:How? by westlake · · Score: 0

      A computer should be separate from the software; as such a customer should never be compelled to buy a computer conditional on also buying the software on the device.

      Bare bones sells to the enthusiast and the IT pro.

      To everyone else a PC is purchased as an appliance like a stove or a refrigerator - and costs about the same.

      It arrives as a properly configured and fully functional bundle of hardware and software or it is returned for refund or exchange under warranty.

      Heathkit is thirty years dead.

      You can't sell tech as a kit of parts and make it mass market.

    11. Re:How? by tsm_sf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It arrives as a properly configured and fully functional bundle of hardware and software or it is returned for refund or exchange under warranty.

      When was the last time you bought a new computer?

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    12. Re:How? by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem is there was NO Vista Home to XP Home, which means that home users had to buy a more expensive license just to get XP. And THAT right there was the problem, and why they should refile.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:How? by westlake · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you bought a new computer?

      December 18th, 2009.

    14. Re:How? by Khyber · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Except that once you've bought Vista, the downgrade to XP was free."

      Not for anything lower than Professional, IIRC. If you had home/home premium/home basic you had to pay like a $50 downgrade fee.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    15. Re:How? by Slashbotter · · Score: 0

      Exactly.. they should refile!

      what fucking morons upped the score on that "shutdown -p " idiots post. Dumb ass Microtards perhaps!

      Vis7a is still just the same vista shit rebranded, its barely any improvement at all, same shit.

      Why the fuck should people be forced to pay for crap just because Microscum-tards spent a few years building absolute fucking junk, infact I swear they probably spent more time twiddling their thumbs, and product/feature lab testing using noobtards, because I've seen third party addons made by one person and offered for free completely fucking piss all over MS designed shit!...and they hired complete fucking morons to designed its GUI/UX...I mean its FailAero GPU crap, the entire vista OS is a inconsistent pile of fucking shit, and every windows app is faster and more responsive on XP.

      So XPsp3/64 is still many times better than Win7, sure it doesn't have Dx11 but who gives a crap, you seen any half assed console ports worth fucking playing with DX11.. NO! ... XP pisses all over 7 in so many ways... so I ask again why should consumers be forced to PAY and FUND a fucking monopoly by paying full price for new shit, when an OS 8+years old still does a fucking better job!?!?!

      The judge here was a fucking retard!, much like the 10000's of retards who bought vis7a or had that junk bundled with pc hardware, and who will inevitably be forced to buy/upgrade to the next version through devious software development lock-ins!

      fucking idiots, you get what you pay for, and soon you'll be getting screwed because of it.

      The good thing is more are starting to see how Microscum does business, and uses patent hoarding to prevent anyone else from fucking them over! Linux is the Next step, it just needs more to start jumping ship on it and supporting its progress and development.

      -----------
      Brad Smith, Microsoft general counsel, 2007: "Protection for software patents and other intellectual property is essential to maintaining the incentives that encourage and underwrite technological breakthroughs. In every industry, patents provide the legal foundation for innovation. The ensuing legal disputes may be messy, but protection is no less necessary, even so."
      ---
      Bill Gates, Microsoft CEO, 1991: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today... A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose."
      -----------

      Microsoft you are going down! Best of all, your own shit developments and dumbifications are helping :)

      http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1565110&cid=31295048

    16. Re:How? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You are indeed right. I stand corrected.

    17. Re:How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It arrives as a properly configured and fully functional bundle of hardware and software or it is returned for refund or exchange under warranty.

      bwa ha ha ha ha... Good one! Properly configured Windows... That's a joke.

    18. Re:How? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      And if you wanted XP Professional you had to have Vista Business in order to get the Pro Downgrade.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    19. Re:How? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Ah... it just really reflects.. Home users aren't MS' target customer, but a marketing channel.

      A year and a few month ago.. no issues or fees when contacting our vendor and placing an order for a bunch of Laptops with XP on them.

      If anything, the total price became less not more after Vista was released, when the market got flooded by all these high end "Vista ready units" which were higher spec'ed equipment than what you'd buy to run XP on in the first place...

      I'm guessing the 'downgrade fee' was something for Home edition users buying very low volume to contend with?

    20. Re:How? by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      Heck, business users aren't Microsoft's target customer. RIAA, MPAA, and other DRM developers are. (I'd provide links, but I'm sure you all have read slashdot over the years as much or more than I.)

    21. Re:How? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Although the license fail to explicitly state it, it appears to be Apple's policy to allow downgrades.

      Generally speaking, it is not possible to install a version of MacOS on a Mac older than the one it came with. Apple don't provide the necessary hardware drivers.

    22. Re:How? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > How did they benefit?

      Several ways, but probably the most important, for Microsoft, is that it makes the sales numbers for Vista, and now Seven, look vaguely respectable. This is very important to the stockholders.

      > It's a lot easier to make the case that the end user
      > benefits for actually recieving two (non-concurrent)
      > licenses for the price of a single license

      Except that nobody actually needs or wants that.

      > I don't think the OEM price for Vista or Win7 is any different from XP

      You don't know that. None of the big OEMs will say what they pay for Windows. You're *guessing* that it's the same for Vista and Seven as it was for XP.

      > You don't see Apple offering a free downgrade
      > option from Leopard to Tiger, do you?

      You don't see Apple users steadfastly refusing to touch Leopard with a ten foot pole and holding onto Tiger for dear life, either. The last time you saw anything like that was with the transition from OS 9 to OS X, and at that time Apple shipped dual-boot setups for a couple of years and continued selling OS 9 for a while longer after that.

      Granted, Apple didn't ship OS9-only systems after a certain point, but since there were never any third-party OEMs, they weren't really telling other companies what configurations they could and couldn't sell, so it's a little different than Microsoft's situation.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    23. Re:How? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > It arrives as a properly configured and fully
      > functional bundle of hardware and software

      Wait, we're talking about a Windows system here, right?

      It arrives as no such thing. It arrives as a horribly misconfigured near-useless paperweight.

      It takes *hours* to get a new Windows system (or a fresh install) configured properly and ready for actual use. Among other things, you have to create a proper user account, password-protect the Administrator account, turn off Welcome Center, spend about four hours installing service packs and security updates, install Antivirus software and get that up to date, turn off the "offer to erase my desktop icons every five minutes" wizard, turn off Aero and set the theme back to Classic so the users will recognize and know how to use it, install whatever software you need because Windows doesn't *come* with such basic things as a decent word processor (with such advanced state-of-the-art 1985 features as spellcheck), and go systematically through the Control Panel and change about half the settings, because the defaults are beyond horrible and get worse with every passing version. The defaults for the Folder Settings have gotten so bad you can't really even use Windows Explorer until you fix it.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    24. Re:How? by maxume · · Score: 1

      I think you should go ahead and provide documentation that the MPAA and RIAA are giving Microsoft more than the billions and billions of dollars that they take in selling operating systems.

      (The part where the paranoid DRM argument falls apart is where Microsoft provides no-charge software that plays back unencumbered media, so all the media DRM serves to do is to enable the customer to play additional media)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    25. Re:How? by maxume · · Score: 1

      He means the intermediate versions. I don't care to look up the numbers, but at some point, Apple discontinued support for PPC, and they no longer sell retail copies of the last version of OS X that did support PPC, but you can (apparently) go to many Apple stores and purchase a retail box of the latest version, at which point they will also burn you a DVD of the earlier version.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    26. Re:How? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Why does someone have to prove Microsoft benefited?

      Let's say hypothetically that I shoot my very rich uncle, get caught, and in the middle of the trial it turns out I'm not in his will after all. I couldn't argue that I didn't actually benefit so I should get off. No one is going to conclude that If I knew about the will, that proves I had no other reason to shoot dear old uncle Fred, or that if I didn't know, I definitely did it for the money. If the state proves I did it based on solid eye witnesses, ballistic evidence and such, they may not bother much with my motives at all.

      If Microsoft did something with the goal of benefiting, why does it have to have been successful before they are culpable? If Microsoft did something, and it didn't work as well as they thought, what relevance does that have to the question of whether what they did was itself right or wrong?

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    27. Re:How? by ascari · · Score: 1

      I think we really should give MS a break on this one. I mean if it wasn't for the XP-downgrade who in their right mind would've bought Vista?

    28. Re:How? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      You are allowed to bundle items for sale so long as they are also sold as individual items.

      Since you can buy a computer without the windows OS, you can also by one with windows. You can even offer a discount for buying both hardware and software.

      Its the exact same concept as fast food restaurants employ. You don't want the fries and the drink with your gyro? Then don't get the combo. You want chicken in your gyro? Yeah, we used to sell a chicken gyro, now you buy a gyro and add chicken for an extra fifty cents. I'm sorry, that coupon is for dine-in only.

      On the other hand, a customer is not compelled to buy a manufactured computer in the first place. Anyone can go out and buy a motherboard, a processor, RAM, etc, and build their own computer. They can do research on all the parts they need, how it works, make a project of it. Let's face it, we all know (or at least should know) someone who had no computer knowledge, read a book, and built a computer in under a weekend.

    29. Re:How? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Hey, to the retard that modded me troll? Read it yourself fuckstick, straight from MSFT themselves. Notice how it says Vista BUSINESS and ULTIMATE, but NOT Vista Home Premium? That is because you have NO downgrade rights unless you buy a license that typically costs a good 30-50% more, dumbasss.

      So YES, this page proves that MSFT DID profit from the program, as there was NO WAY for a Home Premium user to downgrade without first buying the more expensive Business or Ultimate. I should know as I have had many HP users come in wanting their downgrade rights only for me to have to tell them they first get to shell out for a "upgrade" before they can actually get the product they want.

      I may be a happy Windows 7 user, but wrong is wrong. They shit on the home users and forced them to buy more expensive licenses for products they didn't want. That is just not right and the lawsuit should be refiled.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    30. Re:How? by greenpete · · Score: 1

      In my personal experience I had to pay (on behalf of a friend) an additional £30 to down grade, and all because M.S.s new OS was a mess and wouldn't play ball with the software they needed to run for their business, an absolute disgrace!

    31. Re:How? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      From whom? I don't know about the other poster, but I have to call BS on the "fully functional bundle of software" part.

    32. Re:How? by Moryath · · Score: 1

      It's easy.

      1 - Microsoft's lawyers wasted a small forest worth of paper filing frivolous motion after frivolous motion.

      2 - smaller plaintiff couldn't keep up.

      3 - money could probably have changed hands to the judge. Is that a new swimming pool with the Windows logo in his backyard?

    33. Re:How? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "When was the last time you bought a new computer?"

      My abacus had spare beads, does that count?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    34. Re:How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Among other things, you have to create a proper user account, password-protect the Administrator account"

      Surely you don't want the dealer to know your passwords? I'm not convinced they should even have a default, lest it tempt people to leave the default password.

      "spend about four hours installing service packs and security updates"

      In my experience this is generally already done for you, if you get it from a reputable dealer.

      "turn off Welcome Center"

      Seriously? For one, it's a checkbox. For another, its whole purpose is for newbies. That's hardly a paperweight configuration.

      "install Antivirus software and get that up to date"

      Most dealers put antivirus on out of the box, though I'll grant that they make choices of antivirus that I'm skeptical of.

      "turn off Aero and set the theme back to Classic so the users will recognize and know how to use it"

      I really don't think that's a good idea. In fact, I think that the vast majority of people who do this are consummate techies. In my informal experience, people see a pretty theme and aren't at all confused by the fast that their god awful hot dog stand theme became glass. Even technical illiterates. Especially with Windows 7's snap and preview features.

      "install whatever software you need because Windows doesn't *come* with such basic things as a decent word processor"

      Most reputable dealers will pre-install whatever office software you selected.

      "and go systematically through the Control Panel and change about half the settings, because the defaults are beyond horrible and get worse with every passing version"

      I bet the vast majority of them are correct the vast majority of the time, actually. What are you even doing to these systems? About the only thing most would ever end up changing in there is the DPI setting for older people with aged eyes (plus the user accounts that you already mentioned).

    35. Re:How? by mqduck · · Score: 1

      frankly they weren't required to offer an XP option at all (except by the oft-derided free market pressure that was upon them, of course - nothing bad to say about free markets when they help you out eh?)

      Where are you getting this idea that Slashdotters hate the free market? You won't find more Ayn Rand freaks outside the Libertarian party than on this site.

      --
      Property is theft.
    36. Re:How? by starfire83 · · Score: 0

      There's a pretty damn good reason there wasn't an upgrade to Vista from XP - there was a huge redesign of the kernel and system level changes (hence a version umber change!). Enabling users to upgrade from the, most often times, insecure Windows XP Home setup to a more-secure-by-default Vista Home would completely undermine every single year of development time they did on Vista and 7. And why are you complaining about who had to buy a license just to get XP? The costs are roughly equivalent so it's a non-issue since the XP license is free. It's a frivolous suit. P.S. Windows 7 is heads and tales above Windows XP and anyone who disagrees is a stubborn retard that has no idea wtf they're talking about.

    37. Re:How? by starfire83 · · Score: 0

      "Fully functional" is pretty subjective. However, for "most" people a Windows PC loaded with AOL and a whole number of programs they may or may not use. "Most" people don't want to go through the learning curve of switching to Linux or OS X (if they even know what those are). They simply want to use a computer and have it work how they're used to, crashes and all. I mean, have you ever worked in a corporate IT department? People from top to bottom can barely manage to turn on their computer much less do simple tasks like tell you what isn't working. It's great to be idealistic about how computers should work, what they should come with, etc. But that's not what the larger population wants. The OEMs and big software devs give people what they want and expect while trying to push innovation and such without breaking users' experience. That's a very hard limitation to overcome and you zealots tend to not understand the reality but sit in your idealism, ignorant and unaware.

    38. Re:How? by exomondo · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of ways they benefit. One by having mechanisms built into Vista that patrol the user that weren't there in XP that were rejected by XP users when they released WGA.

      How does that relate to the case in question?

      The next is that they actually denied consumers the choice even though consumers asked for it and in the end the only way to get it was to pay for the OS twice (once for Vista and once for XP).

      So? There is nothing that says they have to offer the choice to consumers.

    39. Re:How? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      And a "trial" antivirus that the user will A) think is the real deal and be completely unprotected after ~30 days until their windows machine is yet another zombie, or B) Try to rip out and hose the system, since the OEMs never seem to bundle "well-behaved" AV software.

  2. Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did they write some adventure game once?

  3. But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As a user of Linux, OS X and Windows, Windows is still the worst. Unfortunately a lot of Linux flavours take their queue from Windows where they should be taking them from OS X.

    1. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately a lot of Linux flavours take their cue from Windows

      FTFY. "Queue" means something else entirely.

      At any rate, I don't think I'd say Windows sucks any worse than pick-your-own-distro-Linux. Why? Because I use them for entirely different purposes. As long as I'm a PC gamer, neither Linux nor OSX is going to serve my needs; as such I can hardly say Windows "sucks", since it's the only OS that actually does something I really want to do! (And no, wine is not sufficient.)

      If you're going to say "Windows is worse than Linux", you really do need to qualify that with what tasks you're talking about; clearly, each OS has its own strengths and weaknesses, and it's silly to pretend one is unilaterally better or worse than the rest.

    2. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having recently started working with a Mac, I am actually really surprised at how far behind Windows and Linux OSX is in UI. It is inconsistent, and poorly designed compared to it's modern counterparts. I mean, you have to jump through some pretty fiery logic hoops to come up with a good reason that a green plus would shrink a window.

    3. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Ha...you're funny...and silly. Here's a ball!

    4. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If you are calling yourself a gamer, why don't you just buy a PlayStation or XBox or Wii? Computer operating systems are not meant to be a single purpose systems and neither Microsoft promotes Windows as a gaming OS. I have been a Windows user for years but now have switched to Linux from last year, but I am very happy about my decision. I don't need to explain why, you can find it all over the Internet.

    5. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      If you are calling yourself a gamer, why don't you just buy a PlayStation or XBox or Wii?

      Because I'm a PC gamer, not a console gamer. There's a distinct difference; PC gamers like being able to tweak graphics settings, run dedicated servers, use a keyboard and mouse, and so on.

      There's nothing wrong with console gaming, I simply prefer PC gaming.

      Computer operating systems are not meant to be a single purpose systems and neither Microsoft promotes Windows as a gaming OS.

      I'm well aware that computers are not single-purpose; I use computers for lots of other things. It's one reason I'm a PC gamer: so I don't have multiple devices to upgrade every few years.

      I keep trying to switch to Linux; every year, I try again, and every year, it's still not quite there. This year, the biggest reason is the lack of Netflix support, the second-biggest being gaming (some of my games work in Linux).

      It occurs to me that I'm writing this post from Linux, while playing Starcraft via wine in windowed mode, so perhaps that will help show that I'm hardly anti-Linux. (Incidentally, Starcraft works better under wine than it does in Windows 7, at least on my machine. I wish all games followed suit.)

      Whether Microsoft advertises Windows as a gaming platform or not is irrelevant; the fact is, if you tend to play lots of new AAA PC game titles, you need Windows.

    6. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a Gamer and have none of those.

      Saying that you must have a console to be a gamer is like saying you have to have a truck to be a driver. People who own cars don't count as drivers.

      There are plenty of reasons why to game on a computer instead of a console. I don't need to explain those reasons tho, you can find them all over the internet.

    7. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      I mean, you have to jump through some pretty fiery logic hoops to come up with a good reason that a green plus would shrink a window.

      In my (limited) OS X experience, that would probably be because the window was already at its larger size, so all the green light could do was shrink it down to its smaller size.

      I do agree that the UI is poorly-designed. This may be a petty complaint on my part, but if I click the red X, I expect the application to stop. Maybe that's Windows/GNOME/KDE conditioning, but that's the way it is. If I have no windows open for a given application, I do not expect that application to be considered to be "running".

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    8. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a user of Linux, OS X and Windows, Windows is still the worst. Unfortunately a lot of Linux flavours take their queue from Windows where they should be taking them from OS X.

      I believe the word you are looking for is "cue." That said:

      The latest client OS webstats from Net Applications, W3Schools, and others, should be out early next week. There have been some surprises posted already: Windows 7 eclipses Vista on Steam, 64-bit dominating 32-bit 1 in 5 Windows PC gamers running 64 Bit Win 7.

      The one certainty is that Linux will be bringing up the rear.

      The Apple OSX model is a tightly integrated - tightly controlled - bundle of OS, UI, hardware, apps and marketing. That targets a profitable upscale niche market little changed in 33 years.

      It's not a comfortable fit for a geek.

      Windows is shamelessly middle class and commercial.

      It is good, serviceable, tech that is available in every form factor and at every price point. The "protected path" is there for the user who thinks Netflix and Blu-Ray offer something of value.

      Windows doesn't compell you to buy Corel Draw and MS Publisher when Inkscape and Scribus are available. But neither does it give the GIMP a free ride because of its ideological purity or political correctness.

      That seems to be what most folks want.

    9. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by westlake · · Score: 1

      This may be a petty complaint on my part, but if I click the red X, I expect the application to stop. Maybe that's Windows/GNOME/KDE conditioning, but that's the way it is

      It's conditioning that begins before you are taught to obey the stop sign and traffic light.

      Blood red in Western culture is a warning that you are about to make a dangerous and irreversible mistake.

    10. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, you're speaking of the OS where people think it's more efficient/logical/elegant to hold the mouse down for seconds instead of adding a right-click button.

      Hint: They're not like us.

    11. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by mr_matticus · · Score: 2

      The green button is a "zoom to fit" button. The plus sign inside might be suboptimal, but there are no "fiery logic hoops" involved. If the window is larger than the "fit" size, it shrinks. The button's behavior is quite consistent--the destination is always the same. Different starting points just lead to different paths.

      The plus sign on hover might be suboptimal, but I don't think there's a simple symbol for "zoom to fit"--and zoom is generally regarded intuitively as zooming in. I doubt most people associate the mouseover symbol with the button function, though, given the strong associations people have with color.

      For what it's worth, when you click the maximize button on Windows on a window that is already maximizes, it too shrinks back--the button symbol doesn't reflect this, either. I can't really see a meaningful difference.

      This may be a petty complaint on my part, but if I click the red X, I expect the application to stop

      If I click the close button on a window, I expect the window to close. I do not expect that command to be passed upstream or laterally to other windows. Application-level control is performed at the application-level interface: the menu bar. As a shortcut, some simple apps automatically close when the last document does because the application can't do anything without windows open.

      If I have no windows open for a given application, I do not expect that application to be considered to be "running".

      And I wouldn't expect that closing desktop windows would terminate an application that continues to work in the background without open windows.

      Word, iTunes, Firefox, etc. however all CAN continue to run without windows open, playing music, downloading files, etc.

      It saves me tremendous amounts of frustration that applications with long load times don't shut down when I absentmindedly close the last document I was working on before opening the next.

      It's your conditioning entirely because the way windows work in Windows is different, and the popular Linux desktops duplicated the market leader for familiarity. Nothing more and nothing less. The windows model puts the application in a master "frame" if you will, with all the child windows contained within it. Close the frame, close the child windows. Apple doesn't use the frame; there's no "master" window for most applications.

    12. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by techno-vampire · · Score: 1
      It is good, serviceable, tech that is available in every form factor and at every price point.

      Except for one: the average consumer can't get a legal copy of any version of Windows for free.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    13. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For what it's worth, when you click the maximize button on Windows on a window that is already maximizes, it too shrinks back--the button symbol doesn't reflect this, either.

      Yes, it does. When maximized, the button shows a window on top of another window (indicating that the window size will decrease so that other windows can be seen).

    14. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by RollTRS · · Score: 1

      you have to jump through some pretty fiery logic hoops to come up with a good reason that a green plus would shrink a window.

      Actually, the yellow minus minimizes something. The green plus enlarges a window. Give it a shot next time. Not really a stretch.

      --
      "Perl is my favorite... It's like wiping your ass with unix." - Lord Ender
    15. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative

      For what it's worth, when you click the maximize button on Windows on a window that is already maximizes, it too shrinks back--the button symbol doesn't reflect this, either. I can't really see a meaningful difference.

      Actually, when you maximise a window in Windows, the button icon changes to reflect a different action will occur when you click it again. This has been true since at least Windows 3.0.

    16. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's conditioning that begins before you are taught to obey the stop sign and traffic light. Blood red in Western culture is a warning that you are about to make a dangerous and irreversible mistake.

      That must be why games with red blood turn you into a reaver, and games with green blood are perfectly ok. :-)

    17. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Tromad · · Score: 1

      The applications I despise in Windows violate this rule. MS Messenger and Steam are my biggest offenders. If I wanted to minimize you I would click that freaking button. Offer an option in config like utorrent if you want it to go to the notification area instead.

    18. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      Actually, green toggles between sizes, typically one larger than the other (although they may just be different shapes, and AFAICT they could be the same)

    19. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by westlake · · Score: 1
      Except for one: the average consumer can't get a legal copy of any version of Windows for free.

      The consumer wants the system bundle. The factory install. The manufacturer's or dealer's warranty. No OS is free-as-in-beer under those terms of sale.

    20. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For what it's worth, when you click the maximize button on Windows on a window that is already maximizes, it too shrinks back--the button symbol doesn't reflect this, either. I can't really see a meaningful difference.

      There is no meaningful difference because you flat out lied. Windows doesn't have the same button for maximize and restore. It has two separate icons that replace eachother depending on the state of the window. As such, it is pretty clear and easy for one to figure out what state a window is in and what they can do with it.

    21. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by jisatsusha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In theory, you're correct. In practice, however, things don't really work that way. What is the content size of a terminal window? Even Apple can't decide. since the "zoom" button in Terminal.app simply fills the screen. Then there's web browsers. Safari seems to implement that zoom style behaviour, but Firefox does not. It's application specific behaviour on a control that appears on every window, and that's what's confusing.

      Contrast this with Windows, where the maximise button always either makes the window fill the entire screen, or returns it to its original size. As other commenters stated, the button does indeed change its icon to indicate that this is the case, and it may not be entirely intuitive (two overlapped boxes?) but neither is an x, a - or a + sign with traffic light colours, it's all something the user has to learn.

    22. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      There is a single symbol for Zoom that is intuitive and readily understood by almost everyone - the Magnifier Glass.

      A Plus sign designates Increase (add) and is understood by anyone with any mathematical education. Due to this, using a + (plus) sign is idiocy of the highest level and inconsistent with worldwide educational practices. Please correct the inconsistency in your thinking as the Reality Distortion Field has affected it.

      In the event of Firefox, when it is downloading, it leaves a window open (the download window) and does not run as a hidden background process. iTunes is integrated so deeply into OS-X that the Windows equivilent is Internet Explorer. The reason it runs as a hidden background process is due to it being the Sound Subsystem since without it you have no sound available. (not being a Mac Dev, I don't know if this is correct)

      In Windows, Linux and BSD, the purpose of the filesystem cache is to retain the last used files (programs/docs) until the memory is needed by an active process. What it sounds like is that OS-X is flushing this cache too quickly or the app isn't properly integrated with the OS. In my case I do this several times a day on Win7-64/8GB and have noticed no start up delays after the first instance due to the cache, over time even that decreases because not only does Windows cache frequentyly used files, it relocates them to a faster part of the disk to speed initial loading time during system boots.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    23. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by mr_lizard13 · · Score: 1

      The green button is a "zoom to fit" button. The plus sign inside might be suboptimal, but there are no "fiery logic hoops" involved. If the window is larger than the "fit" size, it shrinks. The button's behavior is quite consistent--the destination is always the same.

      Except in Mail, TextEdit, Dictionary, Font Book, Image Capture, System Profiler, and Disc Utility it maximises the window to full screen.

      In iTunes, it changes the window to a mini-player view.

      In Calculator, it changes the view between Basic, Scientific, and Programmer.

      Other than that, the button's behaviour is indeed quite consistent and the destination is always the same.

      --
      "We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
    24. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Ouch!!! The heat... It Buurrrrnnnnssss!

      Seriously, "The plus sign inside might be suboptimal" is a perfect example of jumping through hoops to rationalize incredibly bad design. A plus sign ALWAYS means ADD. Every grade school child can tell you this. It is an international standard that has been in effect long before Apple was even thought of. Making a window smaller is the epitome of counter intuitive.

      It also is not "Zoom to Fit", as pressing it once MIGHT make the contents fit, but pressing the "Zoom to Fit" again, has the reverse effect, and thus could not be called "Zoom To Fit" by any rational English speaker. Besides, even on applications that come with OSX, I have pressed the green button and found that it leaves scroll bars. It could more rightly be called the, "Uninformatively change to an shape that you will learn after pressing it". The behaviour is definitly application specific, and totally inconsistant for an OS widget.

      Claiming that the most people don't associate a button's behavior with it's functionality is fanboyism at it's best. Someone points out a massive problem with the UI, and you dismiss it as something no one bothers to pay attention too. If no one paid attention to the symbol, then why put a symbol at all? Also, what harm would have been caused by putting a symbol that actually wasn't diametrically opposed to the function of the button? Of course, if anybody actually uses symbols when they look at a computer, then OSX has been designed in a confusing and unintuitive way.

      Even in this bizarre universe you live in where people don't actually look at the symbols on their screen, what does the color green tell you about a button. Green means go. Using it to mean change windows shape or size is again counter intuitive.

      For what it's worth, windows has two modes for the button in it's Maximize/Window button. One is full screen, the other is windowed. It always does the same behavior, and the icon changes to show exactly what mode it is in. An icon of a single window if it will fill the screen, and an icon of two windows if it will not, indicating that you can see more than one window. Go check it out for yourself. Your comment makes me think that a great many of the OSX has a good interface crowed, have no idea what the other offerings do, so just assume that the OSX failings apply to everyone else.

      Red means stop. This existed LONG before OSX. Expecting users to magically know which applications are 'simple' applications that will close, and which are complex applications and will continue to run without a UI is, again, counter intuitive. Expecting users to identify the difference between an application and a windows is just bad design. From a user perspective, the UI IS the application. Your excuse also fail when one considers that pressing the still running application brings up a window. Also, your "Application-Level" UI control, has an entry to close the window. This is directly contrary to the Application/Window paradigm that you are claiming exists. In this so called "Application-Level" UI element, they call the action "Close". It doesn't say "Stop" the window. It says "Close" This is because the metaphore they are going for is in fact "Closing" a window. Thus, a red button would be totally counter intuitive, and would in fact confuse anyone who was raised in a place where red means "Stop".

      Your example of load times is intuitively solved by caching. Not by leaving the application running after the user tells it to stop. Your examples of applications that run without a UI are examples of non-intuitiveness. The only one that has any merit MIGHT be Firefox with the downloading, but even then I don't agree. Word definitly has no business running without any documents. iTunes has no business running without a playlist. etc. Running without a UI is the business of a service not an application. Mixing the two is confusing to a user and counter intuitive.

      The claim that pointing

    25. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Just tried it. The window got smaller.

    26. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the event of Firefox, when it is downloading, it leaves a window open (the download window)

      No it doesn't. If you have the download window set to be hidden at all times, it doesn't open. Firefox downloads with no open windows on the desktop.

      There is a single symbol for Zoom that is intuitive and readily understood by almost everyone - the Magnifier Glass.

      Won't fit in the button.

      iTunes is integrated so deeply into OS-X that the Windows equivilent is Internet Explorer. The reason it runs as a hidden background process is due to it being the Sound Subsystem since without it you have no sound available. (not being a Mac Dev, I don't know if this is correct)

      Not a word of that is correct.

      In my case I do this several times a day on Win7-64/8GB

      No, big (think Adobe) applications don't start up anywhere near instantly on any platform

    27. Re:But Windows OS still sucks. by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Seriously, "The plus sign inside might be suboptimal" is a perfect example of jumping through hoops to rationalize incredibly bad design. A plus sign ALWAYS means ADD.

      The symbol shows what the button, in general, does. It's no more or less intuitive than the Windows buttons, really, which have to convey operations in a tight space. How does a square indicate maximize? It doesn't make any sense until you understand what the button does.

      It also is not "Zoom to Fit", as pressing it once MIGHT make the contents fit, but pressing the "Zoom to Fit" again, has the reverse effect, and thus could not be called "Zoom To Fit" by any rational English speaker.

      And again, this is identical behavior to Windows. Click once for maximize. Click maximize again, and it shrinks. If your window started maximized, clicking "maximize" the first time will make the window shrink.

      The behaviour is definitly application specific, and totally inconsistant for an OS widget.

      Of course it is. Applications are set to be different sizes by the developer as the "fit" size. The zoom button toggles between the developer-specified fit size and the user specified size.

      Clicking it one time will enlarge, clicking it again will reduce, unless it started out "large" in which case the odd/even toggle will be reversed. The button behavior is identical to that of Windows. The difference is that Windows specifies full-screen as the toggle state, and OS X specifies the application's preferred window size as the toggle state.

      An icon of a single window if it will fill the screen, and an icon of two windows if it will not, indicating that you can see more than one window. Go check it out for yourself.

      Except that a user has no way of knowing that's what the symbols mean. One is a square, and one is two squares. The relationship is certainly not obvious unless you already know what the button does.

      Red means stop. This existed LONG before OSX. Expecting users to magically know which applications are 'simple' applications that will close, and which are complex applications and will continue to run without a UI is, again, counter intuitive.

      Says who? The button is attached to the window. "Stopping" the window should stop that window. It doesn't make sense to stop other windows. The application has a menubar. If you want to stop the application, do it there.

      Users don't have to know the difference. They can quit all applications the same way: cmd-Q or Application>Quit. They can close windows the same way: click the close button on the window. There's nothing counterintuitive about that.

      On the other hand, the number of people complaining that "Word disappeared" because they clicked the wrong "X" in Windows is high. They were done with the document.

      Also, your "Application-Level" UI control, has an entry to close the window. This is directly contrary to the Application/Window paradigm that you are claiming exists.

      This is totally nonsensical. Of course application-level controls have these options. Windows are spawned from the application.

      In this so called "Application-Level" UI element, they call the action "Close". It doesn't say "Stop" the window. It says "Close" This is because the metaphore they are going for is in fact "Closing" a window. Thus, a red button would be totally counter intuitive, and would in fact confuse anyone who was raised in a place where red means "Stop".

      I think you might want to spend some time considering the definition of counterintuitive, and possibly your fixation on what colors "mean". Red lights also mean "record", "do not enter", "power on", "standby", "error", and countless other meanings depending on context. Red does not mean "stop".

      Red in this context means close.

      I suppose you have a post re

  4. It's their copyright and they can do as they want! by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft is under no obligation to give you a license for Windows XP if it doesn't want to. They've removed it from the general marketplace, but have left even Windows 3.1 in the MSDN subscription packages, even if those are a high price to pay for an old operating system, it's still the going rate.

    What a waste of resources. This lawsuit had no hope, and the money spent would have been better off asking Congress to lower the copyright expiration standard for software.

  5. The usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Bribes, stupidity or both.

    1. Re:The usual by macdaddy357 · · Score: 1

      Bribery and graft are simply how business is done, and Microsoft has a lot of moolah to grease palms with.

      --
      How ya like dat?
    2. Re:The usual by wmac · · Score: 1

      Now if you want to downgrade to IE6, should microsoft give you a prize in addition to allowing you to do that stupid thing? They don't want to support Windows-XP and they do everything to discourage usage of that OS. What is wrong with this?

    3. Re:The usual by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      IE6 was awful compared to IE8.WinXP costs money, IE6 is free. WinXP is arguably better than Vista so, imo, it's a different situation.

    4. Re:The usual by Dogtanian · · Score: 0, Troll

      The only people who say that XP is better than Vista are people who haven't actually used Vista.

      Troll, shill or asserted in good faith? Who knows.

      What I do know is that what you say is pretty unlikely unless you can back it up.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    5. Re:The usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I am a troll because I like Vista more than XP.

      Yes, I am a shill because I compared two products from the same company.

      Yes, I am asserting in good faith because I actually do like Vista more than XP and my actual perception is that Vista naysayers simply recite the tired old flaws in Vista that have been fixed for years now.

      Take your pick.

      Oh and your post is proof enough. If you had used Vista SP1 or later with non-ancient drivers, then you would know that Vista is simply a better OS than XP. You just owned yourself there, buddy.

    6. Re:The usual by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I call bullshit. Let me tell you about my own experience pal.

      Oh Vista how I hated thee, let me count the ways-1.-Network slows to a fucking crawl when I listen to music or watch videos. Yeah I really missed having to not touch my PC when I download, like good old Windows 95! -2.-Networks shares that would "disappear" even though everyone else on the network could see them fine, and only a hard reboot would fix. Yes, I really missed the days of Win9x and daily reboots, thanks Vista! -3.-The thrashing. Oh Jebus tap dancing Christ on a stick did that thing love to thrash! On a 3.6GHz, with 2Gb of RAM and a 7600GS to offload the desktop, and after applying every tweak and fix I could find, the bastard still thrashed so hard that it killed a brand new 200Gb HDD. You know, I had actually forgotten what a thrashing hard drive was like. Thanks Vista!

      Working in a repair shop, my one, and in fact my only Vista request, is from people wanting it gone. In fact I have three scheduled for next week that are using part of their income tax return to buy nice new Windows 7 HP upgrades so I can kill Vista dead. If you sir had a great Vista experience you are in the minority. I have been building PCs since the days of Win3.x and I never could get that bitch to behave. Windows 7 on the other hand runs like a dream, with low memory usage, no thrashing, network is fast and solid, everything "just works". Vista was a pig, a bloated evil hateful nasty mess. And since it came out I have yet to have a "happy Vista user" walk into my shop, and that is saying something.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    7. Re:The usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problems that you listed haven't existed in Vista since RTM. Nice try though.

      You might also consider that the people coming to you to replace Vista aren't technically inclined (why else would they need someone to remove it?) and are basing their decision off of old issues, what uninformed computer "specialists" like yourself tell them, having the latest and greatest or just haven't installed the service packs.

      Building systems since Win 3.x? Excuse me a moment while I wipe the coffee from my keyboard. For your information, I've been building systems for at least a decade prior to the release of Windows 3.0. This isn't a pissing contest that you want to get into, kiddo.

    8. Re:The usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oooo you called him kiddo. You win!

    9. Re:The usual by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am a troll because I like Vista more than XP

      This had nothing to do with your personal opinion- which you're quite entitled to- and everything to do with the section I was replying to and quite clearly quoted alone:-

      The only people who say that XP is better than Vista are people who haven't actually used Vista.

      That's a blatantly sweeping, across-the-board generalisation. If you expect people to take something that all-encompassing and unqualified seriously, you're going to have to back it up.

      You didn't, and it came across as a borderline-troll, or- at best- unsubstantiated and worthless.

      my actual perception is that Vista naysayers simply recite the tired old flaws in Vista that have been fixed for years now.

      Your actual perception is just that- perception. It might be right or wrong. It's probably coloured by your personal opinion, and time spent reading Slashdot- whose audience is a tiny and unrepresentative section of the mass home and business IT market as a whole.

      Vista was rejected by the mass market, not by the niche of Slashdotters alone.

      Oh and your post is proof enough.

      My post proves nothing except that anyone making major assertions with nothing to back them up doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

      If you had used Vista SP1 or later with non-ancient drivers, then you would know that Vista is simply a better OS than XP.

      Matter of opinion, and an attempt to shift the ground. What you originally said above didn't mention SP1 at all, merely that:-

      The only people who say that XP is better than Vista are people who haven't actually used Vista.

      It's quite probable that people tried the original release of Vista, disliked it and that's what caused the negativity towards Vista. Whether it improved later doesn't change that- they tried it, the negativity stuck and your stupid generalisation is shown to be bunk.

      You just owned yourself there, buddy.

      Quite the opposite; your later mention of SP1- which massively alters the nature of your original assertion by excluding *everyone* who used the original release- proves that it was drivel in the first place.

      And that's what happens when you pull unsubstantiated generalisations out of your ass, "buddy".

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    10. Re:The usual by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sorry to burst your RDF sparky, but that WAS SP1. After it still ran like ass even after SP1 I tossed that giant turd, and last I heard my Vista Business disc is still getting passed around like a bad fruitcake. But hey, maybe you got the "magic combo" just as one of my customers has probably the only computer in history that actually runs WinME stable! From what I understand if you run an Intel only board, with no hardware acceleration, hey all is golden. Me personally I actually like having some graphics and sound with my PC, but that's just me.

      And since I started building with Win 3.0 in 90, what exactly were you fucking building a decade before? Altairs? Hell unless you lived in Silicon valley they didn't even sell wholesale parts to civilians before 86, so I call bullshit. Nice try though.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    11. Re:The usual by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      I have indeed used Vista for a brief period (having to support it at my previous job) and I'm it got better over time (or I would hope) but I don't have time any more to wait for something to get better and with Win 7 coming out so soon afterwards there was no reason to go with Vista.

      It is arguable and people will be insistent their opinion is the right one. It is all subjective but I do believe it says something that Vista had a shorter life. In fact it had half the life XP had before it's replacement came out.

    12. Re:The usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ignorance is strong with you.

    13. Re:The usual by Hamoohead · · Score: 1

      I've been building systems since DOS 1.0. Everything was stored in the root directory and we liked it that way! Now get off my lawn!!

      --
      "If your parents never had children, chances are you wonât either." -Dick Cavett
  6. Stupid Lawsuit by cualexander · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    So this lady was suing because of what? Being slightly inconvenienced? And Vista wasn't bad at all. Especially with a new machine that had the proper drivers. All you had to do was turn off UAC and set it to classic theme and you couldn't tell the difference between it and XP. Windows 7 rocks. This lady was just trying to make a quick buck off a frivolous lawsuit.

    1. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by cualexander · · Score: 0, Troll

      Whatever. This isn't flamebait. Just because everyone on here hates microsoft doesn't mean they don't make decent software. I ran Vista for over a year with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Stupid Lawsuits like this are what bogs down the legal system. If anything this lady should be sued for being stupid.

    2. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So this lady was suing because of what? Being slightly inconvenienced?

      In addition to tying the purchase of Vista to these machines, MS/OEMs charged a significant amount of money to replace Vista with the desired OS (Windows XP) which she claimed raised prices relative to a competitive marketplace which is certainly true.

      And Vista wasn't bad at all. Especially with a new machine that had the proper drivers.

      That is subjective and further irrelevant because the question is not whether you wanted Vista on the machine but whether the purchaser wants Vista on the machine. To her and millions of others, Vista was very undesirable.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    3. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by h4rr4r · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      How does it rock?
      I had it on a PC that I switched to linux. The damn thing would not even play a DVD without setting the region code on the drive. Way to be in Big Medias pocket.

      Still no cron, still no real headless operation, still the same old windows crap.

    4. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by HermMunster · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even Microsoft admitted Vista was bad and worked hard on 7 to get it to market fast before Vista irrevocably harmed their image.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    5. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by HermMunster · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My general opinion of Microsoft is that they don't make good software, they make software that's just good enough. That's my personal opinion.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    6. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Still no cron, still no real headless operation, still the same old windows crap.

      Two things. First, Microsoft is not targeting the tiny percentage of users that find headless operation useful. Second, you don't need Microsoft's approval to run a cron daemon in Windows...

    7. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To Microsoft though, XP is a 9 year old OS which costs them a lot of money (especially because it isn't nearly as secure as Vista).

      I think its good that Microsoft isn't encouraging people to buy Windows XP

    8. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The key fact from the article is that the downgrade charge is levied by the OEMs and not Microsoft. Given that information and the fact that this suit was brought against only Micorosft the outcome makes sense. Remember, these OEMs are the same bastards that charge $20 for original installation media; it's not unreasonable to expect them to charge another exorbitant fee for this downgrade option.

    9. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      In addition to tying the purchase of Vista to these machines, OEMs charged a significant amount of money to replace Vista with the desired OS (Windows XP)

      Fixed that for you. It was strictly an OEM charge.

    10. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      Just because everyone on here hates microsoft doesn't mean they don't make decent software.

      Agreed. In my mind, the fact that the security breach of the week tends to allow root-privileged execution of arbitrary code means that they don't make decent software.

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    11. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      You want headless you should be running Windows Server rather than regular Windows. You may have to jump through hoops to change from the server scheduler back to the regular scheduler if you feel that is important, and to turn off the aditional security features intended to prevent things like browsing the internet on the server, but once you do so, you basically have Windows Ultimate++.

      Oh and Windows 7's Task Scheduler is equivalent to cron. It cannot be fully configured from the command line, and does not use the crontab format, but it otherwise has a super-set of the functionality of cron.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    12. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by derGoldstein · · Score: 1

      Still no cron, still no real headless operation, still the same old windows crap.

      You know, it's somewhat telling that those are the only two points that a linux advocate (I assume) could come up with. I used to split my computers into Win/Linux, but I find that the expense in time administering the Linux ones is demanding. I still "believe in" Free Software, and the distros have all made strides, but Windows 7 has made such a significant leap that it's difficult to compete with. With Vista, you needed a quantum computer to even boot the machine, so the division was simple: Vista on the heavier machines, and Linux on the lighter ones. Now though, considering that Win7 was pushed out with new computers at a comparatively low price, it's much harder to find a reason to use Linux even on weaker machines (I realize that the price drop came mainly from hardware price drops, but overall you pay a lot less for a full-features laptop, and Windows 7 will run just fine on it, unlike the sluggish Vista).

      I still use OSS for anything that I possibly can, which is almost everything apart from CAD/CAM and some 2D graphics software (but then, I don't need to edit audio/video, otherwise there'd be that too). However, when it comes to the OS, making the decision that "Linux will better suit this machine" almost never happens apart from really old computers (which wasn't true during Vista).

      As Tacvek has addressed in the post above, headless operation isn't really what Win7 is supposed to do, and cron can be handled either with the Scheduler, or an array of free software you can easily find. From a practical standpoint, MS has done very well with Windows 7.

      --
      Entomologically speaking, the spider is not a bug, it's a feature.
    13. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "And Vista wasn't bad at all."

      Vista constantly ate itself. NTLDR would just disappear from the system (even booting with a LiveCD and looking for it turned up nothing) at random. It was a total POS for me, and I was using nothing but big-company hardware. I tried different hard drives and even an additional SATA controller in case my onboard controller was fubar'd, kept getting Vista eating itself. I formatted, installed XP, hacked the video .INF to make it work, and that was that, no issues.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    14. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      Even Microsoft admitted Vista was bad and worked hard on 7 to get it to market fast before Vista irrevocably harmed their image.

      Actually, there was 3 years between the launch of Vista and Windows 7. Rather than being rushed out, that is actually longer than average for a Windows release. The major Windows NT releases have taken 1 year, 2 years, 3.5 years, 1.75 years, 5 years, and 3 years respectively.

      The releases that took longer involved major upgrades to the code: 3.5 years for NT4 to 2000 and 5 years for XP to Vista. It seems that the Microsoft are aiming for 3 years between releases now (Windows 8 should be out in 2012).

    15. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by vistapwns · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your comment is not true at all regarding recent versions of Windows. Flaws in Vista and Win 7 typically only go up to remote code execution as a restricted user, and the user gets a security prompt if the exploit tries to go further. Additionally, IE is sandboxed (unlike FF, Safari and Opera) which means the most common by far vector into the system can not even touch user files. 3 year old Vista was declared by Charlie Miller, mac user and winner of multiple pwn2own hacking contests, to be MORE secure than brand new Snow Leopard, but don't let facts interrupt a good troll..

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    16. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Targon · · Score: 1

      In your dislike of Microsoft(which probably dates back to the old days of Microsoft vs. Netscape), you have missed what really happens(or happened since we are in the days of Windows 7, not Vista).

      When you buy a computer from an OEM, the vast majority came with the OS pre-installed. Now, due to the volume of sales, the company doesn't "install" each and every setup clean and then put drivers and software on the machine, they go from a single hard drive image that they then place onto the hard drive of new machines. As a result, the cost to the OEM in terms of labor, both in terms of time spent setting up the machine, as well as in getting what is hopefully a reliable set of drivers and software is much lower. Without this, labor alone in setting up Windows with drivers and software would increase system prices by a significant amount.

      So, what happens when someone complained about Vista and insisted on XP? The company has to go out of its way in terms of labor(remember, a very low percentage of people buying an OEM computer cared enough to insist on XP over Vista) to make a machine XP when the system is set to go out with Vista. It isn't like the company offered two machines, one with XP and one with Vista, it was the same model, so extra handling and such come into play.

      From the Microsoft point of view, if an OEM wants to buy copies of XP, that is up to the OEM, Microsoft does not charge there, and Microsoft was not the one charging ANYTHING, except for the license and disc for XP. So, it wasn't Microsoft who was doing the sales. And sales, not Microsoft is where things come into play. In theory, if you order a system from an OEM with XP on it, and they ONLY put XP on the machine, there is no double charge. If you buy a system with Vista, and then pay for it to be downgraded by the company to XP, then you have to fight with the OEM about you being sold two operating systems when you only wanted one.

      In any case, there was still the labor cost to manually place XP on the machine, and the company could easily charge $100 since it is an extra labor cost, and then give the XP license for free if you prefer to do it that way. If you want something out of the ordinary, you will generally have to pay for it. The only exception is when you get a REAL custom built machine where the company has to pick the OS rather than just grabbing a machine off the shelf and ship it since thousands of the same configuration have been put together with zero difference.

      Blame Microsoft when they do something wrong, but in this case, if a sales rep on the phone sells you two operating systems and you only wanted one, then blame the sales person. This applies to EVERYTHING, where sales people will always try to sell more, and the buyer has to know when not to buy it. Now, it is also the option of the company selling something to only offer certain services on select items. High cost items will generally provide the greatest number of options when it comes to extras, while low cost items may not have certain things available. This really comes back to the idea that companies will be more inclined to take a "lesser profit" on extra services if they have already made a good profit on the sale.

      So, how much money do YOU feel your time is worth? If you make $20/hour at your job, your employers would want to make at least $30/hour from the work you do to make it worth it to them, probably more. How much total time, from sales to installation of XP to shipping would it take to send out a specially configured system? Is it worth it for a company if they only make $10 total profit on the sale of a low-cost $400 computer tower?

    17. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      it's much harder to find a reason to use Linux even on weaker machines

      I would say the truth is that it's better to install Linux first and if for some reason you need Windows, which there are very very few reason then install it second. Linux shows us one thing out of the many improvments it has made, You don't need 10GB of Ram (7 and Vista) to use a computer. Lets not bring up the fact it's 100x more stable and easier to use with better general programs.

    18. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by IANAAC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My general opinion of Microsoft is that they don't make good software, they make software that's just good enough. That's my personal opinion.

      That's pretty much my opinion on any current desktop operating system. They're all just good enough. I currently use Linux pretty much exclusively, except for a VM instance of XP, so I've learned how to deal with and get around anything that bugs me, but I would imagine the same could be said for both OSX and WinX.

      There really hasn't been anything new in the desktop world for decades, other than eye candy. Filesystems (which actually could have an impact on how we handle our data) have tended to evolve, rather than radically change.

    19. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the Task Scheduler app, which is vastly better than chron, and usable by the general public?

      For headless operation, you use Windows Home Server, which is also very nicely integrated into the Windows infrastructure, again vastly easier for general users to operate.

      There is a reason that people use Windows, even though Linux was released earlier, and that Linux marketshare has barely changed in 15 years, and it is not some global conspiracy or illegal nonsense. Companies have tries offering Linux PCs many times, and most have found customers want Windows and Windows is cheaper to manage due to all the support costs associated with Linux.

    20. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You wrote:

      > So, what happens when someone complained about Vista and insisted on XP?

      No, what happened when Microsoft came out with Vista and _no one wanted it_? The OEM could continue with their familiar XP operating system and driver installation, and not waste money and resources on engineering solutions that few customers wanted. Unfortunately, Microsoft proceeded to manipulate the OEM's in ways that require Microsoft power, ways for which Microsoft has been convicted before. The _threatened_ OEM's, by raising the prices of Vista licenses for those few customers that wanted them, unless OEM's agreed to switch entirely to Vista. Numerous customers did not _want_ Vista, but were coerced by new hardware being available only with Vista pre-installed. And that effectively raises the price of XP equipped machines quite a lot, because for an individual customer doing all that driver and patch upgrading is hideously expensive.

      Vendors were willing to continue with XP, to support customers who wanted it. Microsoft acted against those vendors: and if you don't believe a big vendor can do a hardsell, try attending a meeting with a big vendor, and a few of the little after-hours meetings they try to arrange with your management. It's enlightening.

    21. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "That is subjective and further irrelevant because the question is not whether you wanted Vista on the machine but whether the purchaser wants Vista on the machine. To her and millions of others, Vista was very undesirable."

      Sometimes a harsh response is appropriate:

      Cry me a river. Don't like the terms, don't fucking buy Windows. Windows terms too inconvenient? Don't fucking buy Windows.
      Refuse to learn a different OS? Refuse to learn how to route around inconvenience? Then tough shit.

      Want XP? Buy a retail copy and run it in a VM. Too lazy to learn? Then you don't actually NEED XP so piss off. Apple wants your business, and Linux is available if you have any initiative at all.

      Windows terms should become ever more onerous and inconvenient, and those who favor Free and Open software should welcome such moves by their enemies.
      (It is perfectly reasonable to consider MSFT an enemy, despite those who consider it an enemy for illogical reasons.)

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    22. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by exomondo · · Score: 1

      No, what happened when Microsoft came out with Vista and _no one wanted it_?

      You are of course referring to the same people who complain about instability, viruses and security. Vista was a stepping stone to 7 - a compatibility change that had to happen and was going to be resented - if you know anything about software you'll understand why vista was the way it was and why 7 followed so closely behind it. There had to be a break in compatibility to move to a more secure and more stable platform, unfortunately the point of this break (Vista) was obviously not going to be well-received, but of course it's successor would be, the OS that rolled out when developers and hardware manufacturers (rather their driver and utility developers) had some real-world experience with the new model.

    23. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      That's not how it was sold, and not how it was designed. I understand a great deal about software, thank you: and Windows 7 came along 2.5 years later, under massive pressure because companies still refused to use Vista. That's a little hurried for a major OS release, but hardly "soon". And a stack of features that were praised to the heavens for Vista never came about, and remain discarded in Windows 7. (WinFS, for example.)

      No, the break in compatibility to get stability was the switch from Win95 (which was DOS based) to Windows XP (which was NT based, and a lot of which was actually VMS pirated by David Cutler and his crew hired away from DEC). XP actually turned out to be a step up. Vista turned out to be a "new vision", most of which people didn't actually want. Windows 7 has a potential market now because it's 6 years from the release of Windows XP: with the need for DirectX 10 for gamers, contemporary drivers for exciting new hardware such as drives with 4K blocks, and that many years of merging the latest MS Office into the operating system, it's not surprising that customers will consider finally upgrading.

    24. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by exomondo · · Score: 1

      That's not how it was sold, and not how it was designed.

      Of course it was, it was designed with a new security and driver model! Like i said if you know about software you would know that this is going to break compatibility in many cases and the reason you would introduce these new models is for greater security and stability. That is EXACTLY how it was designed.

      No, the break in compatibility to get stability was the switch from Win95 (which was DOS based) to Windows XP (which was NT based, and a lot of which was actually VMS pirated by David Cutler and his crew hired away from DEC).

      Are you serious? You think there is only one point in the lifetime of the OS that breaks compatibility for the sake of stability? Well you're just wrong, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believes Win95 was infinitely stable and that there would never be a need to migrate from it's security and driver models to something more better. Yes Win95 broke compatibility for a move to a more secure and powerful OS, and so did Vista. Vista introduced new driver and security models that broke compatibility in many cases - which is why at launch there were many devices that did not have Vista-compatible drivers. Windows 7 uses the same security and driver models, however by this time plenty of Vista drivers were available and almost all of them are compatible with 7. Do you think 7 would have been as popular if it was plagued by the same lack of hardware drivers and application compatibility? It would have suffered these if it weren't for Vista, by the time 7 came along all the drivers and patches for the new architecture were available.

    25. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      The "new security model" bought very little actual security. Most users still run as "Administrator". Most still automatically click "yes", and most still are happy to answer questionnaires that give away far too much information and still are willing to send passwords by email, and still use the same password for everything. Kerberos still isn't generally used, and single-sign-on still is mishandled. Not much has changed for genuine security, but DRM has gotten a lot of support, and the API's remain concealed and obsccured. In other words, for practical security, Vista changed little that users really benefited from: there were modest kernel improvements, but the loss of stability was profound. And the new interfaces wasn't enough to be worth the bother.

      Now, the jump from Win95 to XP was noticeability. Applications were _far_ more stable, because they switched from a DOS kernel to a far NT kernel, courtesty of David Cutler and his transfer of DEC's intellectual property from VMS. (Check the lawsuit history, especially involving memory management.) XP had far longer uptimes, far better security, and massively better network performance. Vista had far better..... annoying you with stupid questions, all of which users answered "yes". This is not an improvement.

    26. Re:Stupid Lawsuit by exomondo · · Score: 1

      The "new security model" bought very little actual security. Most users still run as "Administrator".

      Oh ok then, we'll ignore security simply because most users don't know enough to utilise the system properly, that is not the right attitude.

      Running as 'Administrator' in the case of Vista and 7 is not an issue, it's UAC (MS' version of sudo) and the elevation of privileges required to perform administrative tasks, this is a good thing (similar to what we have on all unix-based OSes) but the underlying support for this broke a lot of compatibility. Now you don't HAVE to run with root-level privileges all the time whilst still maintaining the ability to make root-level changes when necessary, this is a great addition for security!

      The driver model improvements pull much of teh driver code OUT of the kernel to execute in user-mode, again this is another good thing which will make systems more stable.

      Obviously in the beginning there are going to be problems, from the end user perspective they don't see the benefits initially but when you look a little deeper you see that these changes have a lot of long-term benefit.

      Most still automatically click "yes", and most still are happy to answer questionnaires that give away far too much information and still are willing to send passwords by email, and still use the same password for everything.

      An OS isn't going to stop that, it can't prevent user stupidity, but it CAN allow mechanisms for people to make decisions, which is why UAC is such a good thing. If you find it 'annoying' then you aren't ready for computers, you would also find privilege system in unix-based environments 'annoying'. If you are having it popup a lot when using general non-malicious software then it is the fault of the developer utilising the system improperly, it is just that now Windows is enforcing that and you would find the same issue on unix-based operating systems. Suggesting that we should avoid this sort of system simply because 'most users won't use it and most users just click yes' is stupid. Go be a stupid, ignorant sheep that clicks 'yes' regardless of the question if you want, or turn off UAC if you don't like it, or continue using your XP license, but don't bash on the system just because you don't understand it. Yes security will be annoying, that's the nature of security.

  7. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by wizardforce · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Besides, this was already covered under anti-trust legislation as illegal tying as Vista was the unwanted product tethered to the purchase of most OEM computers. Unfortunately, the chances of this ever being enforced are slim in the United States.

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  8. Stupid Judges Ruling our Lives by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The judge rejected Alvarado's accusations, saying that the plaintiff had not proved Microsoft benefited from the downgrade practices that it created and that OEMs implemented."

    Another stupid judge ruling our lives. Don't you think a judge ought to know something about the field he is ruling in before he is allowed to make judgments there? Would be nice, wouldn't it?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Stupid Judges Ruling our Lives by xwizbt · · Score: 1

      Yes, it would. I only post this so that your comment might get extra points. It is a good comment, after all, and needs to be bumped up.

    2. Re:Stupid Judges Ruling our Lives by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Don't you think a judge ought to know something about the field he is ruling in before he is allowed to make judgments there?"

      Then big corporations would NEVER get what they wanted.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  9. Why did this have to go to trial? by schwit1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why can't the system have a panel of retired judges look at civil cases before a full trial to ensure it is warranted? If the plaintiff wants to move anyway when told there is not case, so be it. But the loser and the loser's lawyer should have to pay something to the winner. There has to be some meaningful consequence for the losers.

    1. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by DougInKY · · Score: 1

      You are asking for a major change of our legal system here in the U.S. (afaik, I am not a lawyer). I would bet that this would require action by Congress and the sitting President as well as constitutional review by the Supreme Court.

      --
      Nothing remains as constant as change.
    2. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      So?

      Take ending slavery. And then try your argument against that.
      Now you see the flaw in your “argument“, don’t you. ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    3. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by avilliers · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell, anyway, this didn't go to trial. Basically exactly what you wanted to happen, happened. Except instead of "a panel of retired judges," it was one non-retired judge who's actually paid to make these decisions.

      In terms of ending discovery or other interminable (and expensive) pre-trial research & investigation--if you could make a suggestion that would do that without granting a virtual 'shield law' to civil fraudsters who don't want to be forced to cough up evidence they've committed fraud, I'd listen. I occasionally wonder if a system with much more active & stronger regulation and much less litigation would be a worthwhile trade-off. I don't know, but I haven't thought of any others.

    4. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you're asking for is essentially a civil-court equivalent of the grand jury. Which, I must agree, would be a great idea.
      For those who don't know what a grand jury is, it's sort-of a pre-trial trial in major criminal cases. The prosecutors present their evidence to a jury, usually without the defendant there. The jury then decides if there's enough evidence to go to an actual criminal trial. This prevents prosecutors from bringing unwarranted prosecutions; if they have no evidence, they won't get past the grand jury and the defendant doesn't have to do a thing.
      A similar set-up should be used in civil trials outside of small-claims. Let the plaintiff first prove their case passes the common-sense test before a defendant has to pay millions to defend against unwarranted lawsuits.

    5. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by westlake · · Score: 1
      If the plaintiff wants to move anyway when told there is not case, so be it.

      This is a lunatic waste of a court's time and resources.

    6. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      If you, as a prosecutor, can't get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich you're not doing your job right.

      Grand juries are... at best an unpredictable, and at worst a totally useless, check on prosecutorial power. Not the best model to go from.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    7. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by DougInKY · · Score: 1

      If that is what is takes, then fine. I was just pointing out that it was going to take just a little more than a little administrative paperwork to make this change. I personally feel that something like schwit1 suggested would be a good idea, it would stop a lot of the frivolous lawsuits and maybe bring our civil justice system back into some sort of balance instead of being the big money lottery it is now. I regret to say that it is up to the younger generation to clean up the royal mess that my generation left you. We had hoped to make many great changes back in the 60's. Sorry...

      --
      Nothing remains as constant as change.
    8. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      I see a flaw in your argument.

      This change in the legal system would not reflect a massive change in human worldview; it's just a change in the mechanics of how civil lawsuits are brought and reviewed. The argument against it would sound like ' this change would cause those who have been harmed to not bring cases because defendents are large organizations that have better legal resources and the risk of having to pay when a lawsuit is warranted (even if the outcome is unlikely to be favorable) is not something that our legal system is designed for. A court of law is a justice system, it is not designed to intimidate.' Or something along those lines.

      Meanwhile, we already have meaningful consequences for losers of a civil suit - the public record that the loser is wrong in the facts of a civil lawsuit, court costs, time spent, etc.

    9. Re:Why did this have to go to trial? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Why can't the system have a panel of retired judges look at civil cases before a full trial to ensure it is warranted?

      That's exactly what your lawyer's job is. If he's lying to you, or horribly mistaken, you can sue him. That's why all the lawyers here on /. post lengthy disclaimers...

      And with your pre-trial trial, how does "discovery" work? Does it have the full force to subpoena documents, in which case it's trivial for anyone to do so without consequences... Or does it have no such power, in which case it's a useless waste of time, as no information is available?

      But the loser and the loser's lawyer should have to pay something to the winner.

      The problems with a loser-pays system have been discussed to-death on /. and everywhere else. Your plan adds nothing new.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  10. more spawn of MS spooge by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It is always refreshing to watch a master criminal at work. Microsoft, the company that has made billions by locking users with false promises on knowingly sold defective malware, stolen technology, selling crap EULAs to sell 2, 3, even 4 licenses just get a machine running and compatible, trampling implied warranty into the ground, evading antitrust prosecutions with perjured testimonies and harried, baited judges, and multiples more on jobbed stock.

    1. Re:more spawn of MS spooge by KillShill · · Score: 1

      Take a look at Intel and Nvidia if you like watching criminals.

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
  11. No surprise really, but the judge was an idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And considering Vista and its rebranded shite pile win7 are complete retarded crap, and that XP still pisses all over both of them in customization, shell extensions, performance, less UI inconsistencies and not to mention that it doesn't have completely fucking shit explorer shell fuckups..

    Then yes why would you want to buy a license for that vis7a junk when really you just wanted the far better more mature XPsp3/64 release before those Microscum retards ruined Windows for stupid clueless sheeple.

    MS obviously doesn't want to sell XP anymore because once it gets the all morons onto the shity vis7a gravy train then it will be easier for them to force on later upgrades.

  12. Like, say, attorney fees? by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 2, Informative

    > There has to be some meaningful consequence for the losers.

    Almost nobody wants to go to court. (Attorneys sometimes do because it's fun to do advocacy before the court, but most of them are smart enough to put client interests first. Debt Collection agencies also want to because they're almost never opposed, because people don't have money to fight them, but they don't even really think of it as going to court.) Courts also have pre-trial systems in place to try to get the parties to agree to a settlement before trial is necessary--pretrial conferences serve that function in most courts. A judge can look at the record and say "Are you sure you don't want to just settle this?"

    Losing a lawsuit that you've spent years on (and likely paid for someone else to spend years on) is a pretty meaningful consequence for the losers.

    You've also got the problem that the bigger the consequence to the loser, the less likely they are to bring legitimate claims to court.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  13. Oh the irony by Main+Gauche · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I have a hard time wrapping idea around the concept of forcing someone [Microsoft] to sell something [XP] they don't want to sell. The idea is absurd.

    And if you RTFA, you'll note that the lawsuit was about the fact that Microsoft was coercing downstream computer sellers NOT to sell XP; in other words MS was forcing them to sell Vista with the new laptops!

    1. Re:Oh the irony by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Informative

      oh please use your brain. how were they forcing them to not sell XP? by not selling it to them in the first place!!!!

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Oh the irony by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...the same way they got busted for being a monopoly in the first place? The OEMs had plenty of XP licenses and discs. Just go to Newegg and see how many OEM XP licenses they have for sale, where do you think those come from? The OEMs. MSFT then tells the OEMs "You want that license discount you have been enjoying? You better do what we say, or Dell gets the sweet deal and you pay full retail." And voila! The OEMs do what MSFT says and you have Vista only.

      Look, I'm a Windows guy, been building Windows boxes since Win3.x, but the whole Vista thing just stank. You know when Tigerdirect was bragging "We got XP machines!" that something was up. Less than 3 months after Vista came out folks were bringing Vista machines to me to "fix" and when I told them I couldn't they promptly returned them. You know the OEMs didn't want to see all that hardware returning, so they pressured MSFT to give them the rights to sell XP. But MSFT figured out a way to double dip, by making sure that Home licenses had NO downgrade rights so the ONLY way for a Home user to get XP was to pay a higher price for Business and downgrade to XP Pro, which most didn't need.

      So to me it looks pretty cut and dried. Home users wanted XP, so MSFT forced them to buy business licenses at a higher cost to get the XP they wanted in the first place. In fact the only way to get an XP Home license using downgrade rights is to buy Ultimate, the most expensive SKU! So yeah, somebody needs to refile, as the home users got screwed.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  14. Re:Benefited? What kind of logic is that? by n6kuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No, you're good if the plaintiff doesn't prove you did it.

    --
    If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
  15. You sue the wrong party or pursue the wrong action by Telephone+Sanitizer · · Score: 5, Informative

    how do you not prove that they benefited by having OEMs sell the newer version of their software before allowing a downgrade path?

    This is from the article:

    Computer makers, not Microsoft, charged users the additional fees for downgrading a new PC from Vista to XP at the factory. However, Alvarado did not name Lenovo Group Ltd. in her lawsuit.

    She sued MS for a practice of the OEM. Wrong defendant.

    It's possible that she could have shown vertical market manipulation, but that might not have been relevant. Such practices might give rise to a federal antitrust suit, but she brought a state unfair practices action.

    I'm no expert in the laws of Washington state, but from the article it appears that among other things she had to show that she did not receive value for her money and she failed to do so.

  16. Re:Benefited? What kind of logic is that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to the wonderful world of judges backwards rationalising and using a half-cocked excuses to cover it up. The fact that the judge missed the fact that Microsoft use Windows Vista and Windows 7 sales numbers to manipulate the market into its ponzi upgrade scheme says a lot. Behind the words he probably had some bullshit excuse like the complaint was too novel by the standards in his closed off world or it would be bad for business. I despair at the number of times I see judges flagrantly breaching guidelines and screwing over victims in the UK. It's like they go out of their way to prop up the big shots and see the whole world through centuries old and often corrupt case law.

  17. Vis7a = Shi7e by Slashbotter · · Score: 0

    7 is still just the same vista shit rebranded, its barely any improvement at all, same shit.

    Why the fuck should people be forced to pay for crap just because Microscum-tards spent a few years building absolute fucking junk, infact I swear they probably spent more time twiddling their thumbs, and product/feature lab testing using noobtards, because I've seen third party addons made by one person and offered for free completely fucking piss all over MS designed shit!...and they hired complete fucking morons to designed its GUI/UX...I mean its FailAero GPU crap, the entire vista OS is a inconsistent pile of fucking shit, and every windows app is faster and more responsive on XP.

    So XPsp3/64 is still many times better than Win7, sure it doesn't have Dx11 but who gives a crap, you seen any half assed console ports worth fucking playing with DX11.. NO! ... XP pisses all over 7 in so many ways... so I ask again why should consumers be forced to PAY and FUND a fucking monopoly by paying full price for new shit, when an OS 8+years old still does a fucking better job!?!?!

    The judge here was a fucking retard!, much like the 10000's of retards who bought vis7a or had that junk bundled with pc hardware, and who will inevitably be forced to buy/upgrade to the next version through devious software development lock-ins!

    fucking idiots, you get what you pay for, and soon you'll be getting screwed because of it.

    The good thing is more are starting to see how Microscum does business, and uses patent hoarding to prevent anyone else from fucking them over! Linux is the Next step, it just needs more to start jumping ship on it and supporting its progress and development.

    -----------
    Brad Smith, Microsoft general counsel, 2007: "Protection for software patents and other intellectual property is essential to maintaining the incentives that encourage and underwrite technological breakthroughs. In every industry, patents provide the legal foundation for innovation. The ensuing legal disputes may be messy, but protection is no less necessary, even so."
    ---
    Bill Gates, Microsoft CEO, 1991: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today... A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose."
    -----------

    Microsoft you are going down! Best of all, your own shit developments and dumbifications are helping :)

    1. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what a tool. How many times are you going to post that same fucking speech in this topic?

    2. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Slashbotter · · Score: 0

      I don't use crap tools like the flawed Vis7a junk you're probably using!

    3. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think my IQ just dropped after reading that.

    4. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Slashbotter · · Score: 0

      You didn't have a fucking IQ if you bought that Vis7a shit! -you idiotic moron!

    5. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Khyber · · Score: 0, Troll

      Protip: Only faggots use numbers in place of letters.

      You're not 1337, you're a goddamned tool.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using Linux as my primary desktop OS since 2004, I think MS hasn't put out anything resembling a decent operating system since Win2K, and... guess what? I still think you're a tool.

      I also think you're not worth the trouble of logging in, but just so you know, this is Zontar The Mindless, UID 9002.

    7. Re:Vis7a = Shi7e by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My IQ mus be higher than yours then.

      I am using Firefox on Windows 7 to write this post right now, and it certainly doesn't run like crap. Not only that, I have W7 dual-booting with OpenSUSE 11.2.

  18. Re:You sue the wrong party or pursue the wrong act by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    Hmm. Your answer is too well thought out, logical, and evidence-based. Next time, please post a variation on this post.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  19. He's just a zealot by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Every OS has its zealots who thing it is the One True Way(tm). Well, if your OS is the only way to go, that must mean other OSes suck. In particular, Linux and Mac zealots tend to hate on Windows so hard because it is so dominant. They convince themselves that their OS is amazing and superior, the masses are just too stupid to realize it.

    There's no reasoning with the zealots.

  20. Re:Benefited? What kind of logic is that? by happylight · · Score: 1

    Your lawyer would probably get you off on an insanity plea since there's no motive.

    So yea.

  21. They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopoly by Iyonesco · · Score: 2, Insightful

    72.54% of Windows users continue to use XP, so it is abundantly clear that the the market prefers XP to 7/Vista. If Microsoft had any competitors they would be forced to continue selling XP in order to avoid losing market share, however their monopoly means they do not have to worry about this since there literally aren't any competitors*. They are therefore abusing their monopoly by forcing 7/Vista onto a market that does not want it. What the judge says is true and Microsoft really aren't benefiting from this since they get a sale whether it's XP or 7, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a clear case of severe monopoly abuse. I certainly feel abused because I want to buy a laptop with Windows XP but all the options in my price range come with Windows 7 Home Premium. How can the judge conclude this isn't monopoly abuse? Somebody get the EU!

    *Mac OS is not a direct competitor to Windows since I can't legitimately install Mac OS on my PC. Alternatives like Linux aren't quite ready for the mainstream desktop user yet.

  22. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't prefer it. It's simply a nightmare to switch over operating systems especially in large businesses.

    And why WOULD you want to use XP these days anyway? 7 is better than it in every way imaginable.

  23. Ridiculous lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft doesn't sell XP alone anymore. They are not required by law to, nor would there be any reasons they would be required by law to, sell XP. Allowing people to downgrade to XP is both not in Microsoft's best interests (as they want people in either Vista or 7) and entirely for the benefit of the customers that really really want it.

    1. Re:Ridiculous lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot!

      What Microscum has done is use its Monopoly position to force consumers into paying and funding crap upgrades that they shouldn't have been forced into buying licenses for!

      When the previous OS XPsp3/64 not only offered better privacy and less spyware! it also has far better application performance/responsiveness, customization, third party shell extensions, and less design retardation and crap as piss changes made for idiots scared by functionality and customization, thus allowing Microsuck to get away with not providing such things, and thus giving them more to offer in another few years for the next inevitable shit upgrade.

      So you and everyone other dumbass falling for Microscums monopoly Ponzi game scheme! just got conned into paying full price for Vis7a shit, when many (the intelligent ones) wanted the better XPsp3/64 OS that is not only a few years older its also fucking better! and thus should have been sold and licensed separately.

      >>>>Monopolies shouldn't be allowed to get away with subscription/upgrade licensing scams! That force consumers onto deviously developed software lock-ins and other hidden mechanisms designed to make monopoly more money off the backs of other consumers forced to go along with a mass of fucking retards allowing it! http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1565110&cid=31295048 [slashdot.org]

  24. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by QuoteMstr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most of the world's non-embedded computers run Windows. When a company reaches that level of influence, it ceases to be just another firm and instead becomes a part of our societal infrastructure. It's certainly reasonable to hold such organizations to a higher standard than we hold smaller organizations. The power company can't "do as they want" either.

    As long as Microsoft wants to enjoy the lucrative benefits of being a singular part of society's information infrastructure, society ought to have a say in how Microsoft is run.

    You might argue that imposing such restrictions is "punishing success". That's hardly true. The people responsible for Microsoft's growth have been rewarded many times over. If Microsoft finds regulations unbearable, it can split itself in two smaller companies, or shrink some other way. Then, it would no longer be subject to the same scrutiny.

    But as long as Microsoft

  25. AAPL by Envy+Life · · Score: 3, Funny

    A computer should be separate from the software; as such a customer should never be compelled to buy a computer conditional on also buying the software on the device. Of course this is already covered under US antitrust law as illegal tying even if it is rarely if ever enforced.

    In other news, Apple Computer has hit an all time high in the stock market...

    1. Re:AAPL by derGoldstein · · Score: 1

      That's completely unrelated. Apple sells magic. You'd need to have an expert witness, a *wizard*, to make your case there.

      --
      Entomologically speaking, the spider is not a bug, it's a feature.
  26. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a whole load of bullshit right there.

  27. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

    That's a whole load of bullshit right there.

    The power of your argument is overwhelming. I am compelled to concede.

  28. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by peterfedric · · Score: 1

    I agree with your comment, all the rights are with Microsoft and so no one can do anything for that. Even if you sue it then also you wont be about to get any better results.
    vegetarian army rations

  29. idiot 1st poster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    um i dunno price maybe
    and then you get marketing stats saying OH GEE look how good our OS is over others, when in fact it sucks ass.

    Seriously im so pissed at some upgrades microsoft has done im not going to bother no more and 100% to pirating it cracked, im sick a spyware and bs.

    and they can enjoy one less "customer"

  30. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Windows cost £50 at retail I'd happily buy it but the layering into retard and bozo versions, shorter period of upgrade cycle, and stupidly high retail prices for no other reason than Microsoft can maintain its OEM monopoly really make me look favourably on pirate solutions. I still feel burned after Windows 2000 was all but abandoned and the badly designed bling and featureitis that hit Microsoft with Windows XP makes the whole thing look like a wobbling pile of cruft. As a developer I'm fed up with the ever increasing maze of API's, bloated and slow compiler tools, and documentation that's easier to search online via Google.

    I'm really disappointed that Apple doesn't sell OS X for the generic PC platform. As VM technology is improving and graphics card virtualisation is around the corner dumping Windows for OS X is a no-brainer. If Jobs can stitch up deals with the music and movie industry then he sure as hell can stitch up deals with PC vendors and retail. The fact that Apple is doing so well financially and so many people have turned against Apple for its control freak attitude would suggest to any politically savvy businessman that people are happy to support Apple but the impression of greed and nannying is losing them support.

    The only other option I see on the radar is if big manufacturers get behind Haiku and make it succeed where BeOS didn't. With all the quality of Apple design and none of the hairshirt community issues of Linux it could be a real winner. The only thing it lacks is good quality drivers for modern equipment and OEM deals that make it an option on par with Windows at retail. None of this is insurmountable and there's no reason why a good family of native core apps couldn't follow very soon. But, I've learned in life that something can be great, accessible, and free and nobody will buy into it for what amounts to petty egotistical reasons.

  31. Re:Benefited? What kind of logic is that? by Urkki · · Score: 1

    So if I murder that judge’s children, I’m good, as long as I don’t benefit from it? ;)

    What an idiot.

    No, if you want to buy murder of the judge from a hitman, then the hitman can insist that you first buy murder of judge's children, and then downgrade to the murder of their parent, as long as the hitman doesn't benefit from the murder of the children.

    Of course selling or buying murder is still a crime in itself, while selling or buying Windows isn't so much... But that doesn't mean you're "good" in either case ;-)

  32. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Urkki · · Score: 1

    Productivity = yes that thing that you gain from good design, unlike vis7a which has retarded design is so many areas and crap changes, so much so that settings and changes I could get to and make in a few clicks, suddenly becomes an effort of extra clicks all because of the crap UI layout/position/ location of settings options etc once again in the Explorer shell! how many times do I need to bring up that heap of shit.

    Vista has one saving grace that works out of the box: easily starting programs with keyboard. Just hit "Windows"-key and start typing away, and it'll give you smaller and smaller list of possible programs and documents, and most of the time the program you're after will be at the top of the list after a few keystrokes, so you can just press enter to launch it.

    As an example, I'm sure you know how to get to modifying environment variables in XP?. Well, in Win7, just hit "Win-key", type "environ" and select it from menu (ie. just press enter, IIRC). No more navigating stupid control panel.

    The rest of changes are pretty good too after getting used to them, I especially like being able to easily set up two half-screen windows side-by-side and being able to maximize window vertically. But that "command line like" launching of programs, that's enough reason for any Linux-user to start hating XP (when compared to Win7, I mean).

  33. This is news? by hyades1 · · Score: 0

    The judge is either stupid or corrupt. Given the general characteristics of the species, and the fact that so many of them start out as lawyers and sink from there, she's probably both.

    "Contempt of court? Why, no, Your Honour, I have contempt for you as a human being and a jurist, and I figure you just barely had enough brains to tuck the bribe money out of sight under your robe before you walked in here. And I have enormous contempt for the mouth-breathing half-wits who voted you into office. But contempt of court? Never!"

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:This is news? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      LOL. Looks like I got moderated by a judge...or somebody who bought one and doesn't like to see the merchandise devalued.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  34. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

    He made reference to bodily wastes 23 times, if anybody was counting. "Fuck" occurred 11 times as well.

    --
    Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  35. Windows 7 is a pile o crap by Digital_Mercenary · · Score: 0

    I've been using windows 7 for a few months now and it's really no better than XP. I using it mainly on a Gaming box. At first I was happy to see it was able to running many of my XP games, Half-life2, madden 08 (EA is a bunch o morons too). But just as you needed to reboot XP every so often because of memory leaks. Low and behold I need to do the same thing with Windoze7. What a crock! When will the Redmond idoits learn... Take BSD and make Microsft X. Stealing good Ideas is OK, I'll pay for them....

    -DML

    1. Re:Windows 7 is a pile o crap by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      My Windows 7 (beta) system hardly ever gets rebooted. I only ever put it in sleep mode these days and it just keeps chugging along for a few months at a stretch. Eventually some update or power failure forces me to reboot or switch it off.

      I did have one time where my memory usage got too high and I had to reboot, but I blame the stupid developer who wrote the buggy program that I was using at the time. Unfortunately, the developer was me.

      Perhaps your problem is that you have some buggy code by a studid developer on your system. Oh look, you mentioned EA!

  36. Of course there IS a benefit... by Eth1csGrad1ent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of counting as an XP sale. It is instead counted as a Vista sale, and the marketing clowns at Microsoft get to beat their chests about how well the uptake of Vista was going (in stark contrast to the bad trade press no less). Nothing builds momentum like manufactured momentum...

    1. Re:Of course there IS a benefit... by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      The problem with your argument is that net statistics agencies like net applications showed that Vista uptake was high and equal to MS' claims for sales of the OS. Now of course, you'll completely back-peddle and tell us that the users were forced to use it like that has anything to do with your claim that it wasn't used but instead downgraded. I've had this same lame argument 500 times and it always goes the same way...

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    2. Re:Of course there IS a benefit... by Eth1csGrad1ent · · Score: 1

      back-pedal ? based upon what exactly ? I develop using MS tools - some of which I quite fond of. I sell my wares to clients who run MS architecture - but that doesn't mean for 1 second that I find many of the business decisions that MS have made in the last 20 years I've been in the industry absolutely morally, ethically, and in many cases legally bankrupt. Given the sheer weight of your argument tho, let me pick up and run for the hills. I wouldn't dare question the reliability of "net statistics agencies" or claims like "Vista uptake was high and equal to MS class for sales of the OS". After all, you've had this lame argument 500 times. You must be right. Let me tell you why I upgraded to Vista. My customers weren't able to remain with XP when upgrading their machines, and Microsoft support for XP was about to be dropped. You could say I was a quick adopter and am one of those "uptake" stats. What you can't say is that I willingly switched due to the "glorious new features" that came with Vista. It was a business decision based upon forced product obsolescence. Upgrade or die - thats the Microsoft way.

  37. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by ByteSlicer · · Score: 1

    the money spent would have been better off asking Congress to lower the copyright expiration standard for software.

    You do realize that copyright is what makes the GPL work?

  38. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Even if you buy your rather strange argument, the proper forum to regulate the behavior of large corporations is the government not individual random lawsuits.

  39. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by westlake · · Score: 1

    As long as Microsoft wants to enjoy the lucrative benefits of being a singular part of society's information infrastructure, society ought to have a say in how Microsoft is run.
    You might argue that imposing such restrictions is "punishing success"

    You could also argue that society's choices - it's collective decisions - made Microsoft and Windows what they are today.

  40. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

    Can you think of any GPL software from, say, 10 or 15 years ago that would be much use as the basis for a closed-source app today? Probably the most popular software of that age is WinXP, and re-selling that without SP1-3 would be nigh impossible.

    Personally, I'd like it if, to receive copyright protection, software had to be either published with all sources, makefiles, etc., or have those placed in escrow until the copyright expired, and likewise the high-res masters of a/v works. This way, the version in the public domain contains all the information needed to make derivative works from it. As it is, books, for example, contain the copyright material in losslessly, for the most part, even if duplicating it would be non-trivial,

  41. Classic Theme? by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

    You're kidding, right? The classic theme looks monumentally different in just the colors alone. The feel and the navigation are the same, but color scheme is way off. There is a noticeable difference.

  42. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by ByteSlicer · · Score: 1

    Well, the Linux kernel comes to mind. The core is from the early '90s. Different parts would go into the public domain at different dates, since a lot was added to it later.

    Whether this would be a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. I'm more sympathetic to new-BSD styled licences, but I can see cases where the GPL would be preferrable.

    I just wanted to remark that reducing copyright terms for commercial software is a knife that cuts both ways.

  43. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > What the judge says is true and Microsoft really aren't benefiting from this since they get a sale whether it's XP or 7, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a clear case of severe monopoly abuse.

    They are benefiting! It's very important for M$ to have their latest version adopted as largely as possible.

    If XP would remain the market leader and Vi$ta/W7 could not gather a meaningful market share, in the near future Wind0s XP would be compared to, say, SuSE 12 or Mandriva 2011 or Ubuntu 11.04.

    That would be M$'s demise.

    The judge either is incompetent/dumb (and therefore shouldn't be a judge) or just plainly helped M$ by issuing a misguided ruling (whether willingly or not is not important in the aftermath).

    That's why I said the environment in the US is so biased the EU should take that into account when punishing M$. It's becoming like a Banana Republic.

    Alas, what's the difference?

    Either a socialist party-controlled regime, an oligarchy of self-serving nobles or a corporate-controlled capitalism... which of them respects the people's will?

    Actually, none. They all can be put in the same category: a dictatorship.

    Have a nice day.

  44. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > And why WOULD you want to use XP these days anyway? 7 is better than it in every way imaginable.

    a) My perfectly working HP scanner works well with XP, but not with Vista/W7. Clearly worse.
    b) Both XP and Vista lock up with a smartcard, but XP accepts ctrl-alt-del, Vista will have to be killed with powerdown. Clearly worse.
    c) W7 has a cleaner look than Vista -- that's good. But XP could be tweaked, too.

    Finally, XP has been paid and it's there working... W7 has to be paid.

    Why would I want to give more money to M$?

    It's seems Windows XP is better than Windows 7 to me and anybody conscious about money management.

  45. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by kramerd · · Score: 1

    Who modded you insightful?

    The US legal system is a method through which the US government finds issues to jump upon and regulate. Furthermore, the legal system exists solely because it is a function of government (hence why we call it a court of law).

    Parent is also wrong; all organizations, regardless of size, should be held to the same level of regulation.Society does have a say in how every organization is run, its called a combination of laws, public ownership (stock), and political harm (environmentalists). Society should not, however, control how an organization is run. Recently, banks were told exactly how to be run by society, at great cost to society. We should have allowed banks to fail, so that new banks could take over and succeed. Instead, every US citizen is now paying for banks not failing by having their credit card interest rates hiked (mine went from 4% to 12%, but people with bad credit are seeing upwards of 30%) due to regulation telling banks how to run their organization. This is just a contemporary example of why government intervention = everyone loses.

      Larger organizations may be subject to more scrutiny, but the laws should not differ simply because your company makes more money.

  46. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    I can think of such opensource tools, though not necessarily GPL. SSH, which forked from open source to closed source and still has an open source fork available, is available in a more featureful closed source version, especially including Kerberos support ofr Windows clients.

  47. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long as Microsoft wants to enjoy the lucrative benefits of being a singular part of society's information infrastructure, society ought to have a say in how Microsoft is run.

    Why? You have no argument to back this up so I'm just supposed to believe you? No, I don't think so. Society was already in place by the time Microsoft showed up. We already had roads and telephones because WE wanted them, not Microsoft. So, now that they show up after the fact, use the benefits of society just like everyone else, they should be charged out the ass?

    You might argue that imposing such restrictions is "punishing success".

    That's exactly what it is. You're saying if it wasn't for society that Microsoft wouldn't be where it's at while ignoring the fact that WE wouldn't be where we are at either without society. It's something we were going to do anyways yet for some reason Microsoft should foot the bill because "they gots lots o' money and I ain't got none!"

  48. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

    Parent is also wrong; all organizations, regardless of size, should be held to the same level of regulation

    Why? Because it's conceptually elegant?

    Society does have a say in how every organization is run, its called a combination of laws, public ownership (stock), and political harm (environmentalists)

    These laws already discriminate based on size: small businesses are exempted from many labor and regulatory requirements. Why can't we add a class for very large corporations?

    Society should not, however, control how an organization is run.

    Why not? Also, you just contradicted yourself.

    Larger organizations may be subject to more scrutiny, but the laws should not differ simply because your company makes more money.

    Why not?

  49. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You rate jumped beacuse they are trying to gouge you while they can, the only reason that rate hike happened was beacuse the government didnt put regulation into effect imediately instead of down the road. it gave them time to fuck you, but please do remember who is actually fucking you.. the credit card company

  50. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by kramerd · · Score: 1

    Speaking directly to your response by paragraph,

    I don't understand what you mean by 'conceptually elegant'. 'Because it looks good' is not a reason to regulate. I assure you that you agree with me on this point. For example, I am against legislation allowing gay marriage because I am against the concept of any marriage. Its just a tax liability loophole, whereas people can create individual contracts to live together and combine assets in the formation of a family unit (whether or not they have children or even the ability to have children) regardless of sexual orientation so long as you don't call it a marriage contract (instead, call it an llc), therefore the concept is ridiculous (granted, there are a few tax credit/deductions that can only be earned through a marriage contract, but whoever heard of getting married so that you have a different standard deduction?). See how regulation regarding gay marriage is explicitly unecessary, as all people should be held to the same standard of regulation, just as businesses should?

    Small businesses are exempt from labor and regulatory requirements because it would be both impossible to enforce and impossible to implement (both from a prohibitively expensive standpoint and from a reasonableness standpoint) in the majority of small businesses. This does not mean that our current laws are accurate or reasonable.

    You seem to not understand the difference between what does exist vs what should be. I did not contradict myself. You can start a philosophical discussion about whether businesses care about customers beyond doing the bare minimum to keep people buying stuff, but in reality, without government interference, the purpose of a business is not to make money (see publicly traded company, government regulation of for detailed explanation).

    Give me an explanation of why so, and I will tell you why you are wrong.

  51. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Funny

    Alternatives like Linux aren't quite ready for the mainstream desktop user yet.

    Yes, but 2010 will be the year of the Linux desktop; just you wait and see...

  52. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

    I don't understand what you mean by 'conceptually elegant'.

    I ask whether conceptual elegance motivates your thoughts because I can't conceive of any other reason for asserting that the law must apply in a uniform manner to large and small companies alike.

    For example, I am against legislation allowing gay marriage...

    Look, I'm with you on getting the government out of marriage. The rights currently conferred by marriage should be split up into individual agreements that any two people can agree to.

    That said, you must be aware of how difficult it would be to remove the concept of marriage from the law. The political cost would be astronomical, and the gain would be quite minimal. So in a practical sense, the government will always officiate marriages. Because marriage is not going away, and because it does confer definite benefits, your opposition to gay marriage is an endorsement of continued inequality for one class of people. In fact, your confusion between "is" and "ought" in this instance is so plain that one must wonder whether you have other reasons for your opposition to gender-blind marriage.

    [snip the rest of your post]

    You did not address my question.

    You made a categorical assertion that we have no basis for applying different laws to large and small businesses. I asked you for the supporting foundational arguments behind that assertion, and you did not provide any. Again: why are we, in your view, specifically prohibited from applying different laws to businesses that dominate their markets?

  53. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

    Why? You have no argument to back this up so I'm just supposed to believe you?

    I don't expect you to believe me. I expect you to agree with me. The difference is important.

    Society was already in place by the time Microsoft showed up. We already had roads and telephones because WE wanted them, not Microsoft. So, now that they show up after the fact, use the benefits of society just like everyone else, they should be charged out the ass?

    What does that have to do with my argument? I'm not arguing that Microsoft should be charged double electricity rates, or that we should collect double bridge tolls from its employees.

    You're saying if it wasn't for society that Microsoft wouldn't be where it's at while ignoring the fact that WE wouldn't be where we are at either without society.

    Yes, but we do not individually exert a huge influence of the security of society. Microsoft does.

    Like I said: regulating companies is not punishing success. Microsoft has two options:

    • A: be small and avoid regulation
    • B: be large, be the largest operating system by a huge margin, but be subject to rules that to ensure the safety and reliability of our computing infrastructure

    One would presume that Microsoft is better off under option B that under option A --- that's not a punishment for success. It's a reward with strings. There's nothing wrong with that.

  54. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And, replying to myself: I forgot this pearl... W7 won't have a 1440x900 LCD mode, so my monitor can't run at its native resolution.

    No problem, I surely can go to the maker site and download some driver... but it begs the question: why when 30~40% of all wide monitors are 1440x900?

    What is M$ smoking?

    (not that I tested said monitor on XP, though...)

    Maybe I'm too used to Linux and forgot about these things which make Windows 7 hard to use.

  55. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As long as Microsoft wants to enjoy the lucrative benefits of being a singular part of society's information infrastructure, society ought to have a say in how Microsoft is run.

    Society already has a say. They can stop buying Windows.

  56. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by kramerd · · Score: 1

    Not quite.

    I didn't say that the law must apply in a uniform manner to large and small companies alike, I said that it should. As for why, the very concept of a free market (which we currently only have in a limited state but generally agree would be a preferred business strategy here in the US, land of the anyone can do anything) requires that environmental factors regarding business are not modified by outside influences. For example, barriers to entry should only include economic (is there a market for product/service) and financial (for-profits should make a profit, non-governmental non-profits must have (private) funding, governmental for and not for profits should not compete with established organizations unless they can do so to the benefit of society; ie cheaper and better, lending institutions should not be governmentally based [so as to avoid political motivations, see no child left behind and abstinence only education]), and should not include political influences (environmentalists, religious organizations that proselytize, etc; that influence regulation. In other words, its ok that PETA exists, but PETA should not be telling BSA to get rid of fishing merit badge by funding political campaigns that promise to declare it an outrage).

    We are not prohibited from applying different laws to different businesses (in fact this occurs regularly, based not on size of the business but rather the content of the business itself; for example, a shoe making factory is not held to beef inspections for mad cow). In clarification, the laws that we apply to all businesses should apply to all businesses in the same manner regardless of [business success]. As for why, there is no reasonable basis for punishing success, especially success that comes only because of a broken system (fix the system, and you don't have to fix specific situational items with controversial law after controversial law).

    For example, large businesses should not receive specific tax credits that smaller businesses do not based on volume, as the incentive to produce larger volumes already exists (economies of scale/quantity discount pricing, expansion/growth/ROI for shareholders, etc). Small businesses, however, should not receive government loans at lower rates than large businesses, as small businesses have a larger risk of default, and the American taxpayer should not be one to shoulder such differential risk.

    To address your last question, there are many, many reasons to provide different laws for different businesses, but being particularly good at what you do is not in and of itself one of them.

    As an example, look at sarbanes oxley, an SEC regulation that has strict requirements for disclosure among all businesses, and higher penalties for fraud than previously existed. While some of the disclosure requirements are optional for smaller businesses (specifically when adherence would make it prohibitively expensive), this does not mean that small businesses can commit fraud without the new penalties for getting caught. While SOX is good for businesses because it gives (stupid) shareholders more faith in the honesty of business filings, it is actually bad for businesses because it doesn't actually make businesses any more honest. Furthermore, it makes 10k/10q filings less understandable. Meanwhile, larger businesses should have to hire more people for all of the new disclosure requirements, but in practice, they just increase the workload of their present employees. This leads to more burnout turnover, which is bad for both employers and employees, simply because a company, as you put it, dominates the market.

  57. Re:They'd have to sell XP if it weren't for monopo by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    72.54% of Windows users continue to use XP, so it is abundantly clear that the the market prefers XP to 7/Vista.

    Wow, giant fallacy in your first sentence.

    If you said, 72.54% of *new computer purchases in 2010* have XP installed, then you'd have a point. You'd also have a point if the upgrade to Windows 7 was free and trivially-easy.

    As-is, though, you're just spouting nonsense. Do you think this site is full of jellybrains? Did you think we'd fall for that trick?

  58. Re:It's their copyright and they can do as they wa by exomondo · · Score: 1

    As long as Microsoft wants to enjoy the lucrative benefits of being a singular part of society's information infrastructure, society ought to have a say in how Microsoft is run.

    Society does! And they vote with their wallets. You don't have to buy microsoft, there are plenty of other options but the reality is most people don't care! Just like with the browser issue, MS wasn't stopping anyone from running a different browser, other options either didn't offer compelling reasons to change or weren't marketed well enough so since there was no problem with the microsoft offering they just used it. I prefer Chrome to IE so i go and download that, i prefer Linux to Windows so - wherever possible - i use it instead, no one at MS is stopping me.

    if they were actually preventing the use of an alternative then that would be a different story, but only because they are a monopoly, of course companies like Apple can do this without a problem.

    Perhaps the reason for MS' occasional product downfalls is this consistent bullshit they are constantly having to deal with.

  59. Re:Benefited? What kind of logic is that? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    What the...? Troll? Did someone miss the sarcasm?

    What an idiot. :P

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.