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US Sits On Supply of Rare, Tech-Crucial Minerals

We've recently discussed China's position as the linchpin of the world's supply of rare earths, and their rumblings about restricting exports of of these materials crucial to the manufacture of everything from batteries to wind turbines. Now an anonymous reader sends this MSNBC piece on the status of the US's supply of rare earths. "China supplies most of the rare earth minerals found in technologies such as hybrid cars, wind turbines, computer hard drives, and cell phones, but the US has its own largely untapped reserves that could safeguard future tech innovation. Those reserves include deposits of both 'light' and 'heavy' rare earths... 'There is already a shortage, because there are companies that already can't get enough material,' said Jim Hedrick, a former USGS rare earth specialist who recently retired. 'No one [in the US] wants to be first to jump into the market because of the cost of building a separation plant,' Hedrick explained. ... [S]uch a plant requires thousands of stainless steel tanks holding different chemical solutions to separate out all the individual rare earths. The upfront costs seem daunting. Hedrick estimated that opening just one mine and building a new separation plant might cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion and would require a minimum of eight years. [But the CEO of a rare earth supply company said] 'From what I see, security of supply is going to be more important than the prices.'"

324 comments

  1. Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If these rare earths are so rare and valuable, and only going to become more so, why should the upfront cost matter? The plant should still make a huge profit, unless I am misunderstanding basic economics.

    Seems people in America only want to invest in fraudulent get rich quick gambling schemes these days. Actual resource extraction and manufacturing is for the peons.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $1 Billion for a mine/plant = too expensive.

      $1000 Billion for wars on terror = well spent.

      Priceless = America

    2. Re:Supply and demand? by Jeff-reyy · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      You're just mad because we get to eat all the poop. Mmm, delicious poop.

    3. Re:Supply and demand? by Spy+Handler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most likely the high cost and long wait times resulting from EPA, OSHA and various state agency regulations (not to mention fighting Greenpeace and other hippies) make it more economical to just import the stuff from China rather than try to mine it and build a processing plant here.

    4. Re:Supply and demand? by chill · · Score: 1

      Because the common man (not you -- the general "drill baby drill" public) doesn't seem to grasp a few concepts. Minerals, including oil and rare earths, are of finite supply. Eventually, they will run low or out totally. When that happens, do we -- the U.S. -- want to be on the SUPPLY or DEMAND side of the equation?

      This is why the entire concept of "stop using foreign oil" is wrong. Who do we want pumped dry first? The Middle East, or the U.S.? Ditto with other critical resources. Which is why as long as the rest of the world is selling, we should happily be buying and sitting on our own resources.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    5. Re:Supply and demand? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From TFA: "But Cowle, the CEO of U.S. Rare Earths, seems hopeful that momentum has already begun building for the U.S. government to encourage development of its own rare earth deposits."

      Translation: "Dear Congress, give my company lots and lots of taxpayer money for free, or the yellow peril will eat your children, and you wouldn't want that, would you?"

      It sounds like he has every intention of making a huge profit, he'd just prefer to have taxpayers build his plant, offer him some nice tax "incentives", maybe waive an inconvenient environmental protection rule or two first...

    6. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. You sit a generation of learning machines in front of a monitor that tells them that the way to life is to party and that work is for someone else - what did you expect the end results to be?

    7. Re:Supply and demand? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Seems people in America only want to invest in fraudulent get rich quick gambling schemes these days. Actual resource extraction and manufacturing is for the peons.

      Probably the environmental impact statement for opening such a separation plant outweighs (and outcosts) the equipment itself.

      Oddly, it's the so-called capitalists who have become stymied by paperwork and government bureaucracy, and the bureaucratic communists of China who have not. Of course they don't mind at all if their people drink and breathe poison.

    8. Re:Supply and demand? by Jeian · · Score: 1

      Well, if a company were to set up shop here, they'd have to comply with all applicable federal/state/local environmental and safety guidelines, and pass on the cost to their buyers.

      Companies operating in China have no such problems (or, at least, not to the degree that they would here) and therefore would be able to sell those materials at a lower cost.

      Consequently, such a venture wouldn't be profitable UNLESS China cut off their exports of those materials.

    9. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "There is already a shortage, because there are companies that already can't get enough material, " ... at the price they want. The cost of extraction in the US is likely to be significantly higher than in China, due to environmental rules/lawsuits if nothing else. In all likelihood, the first such operation will be buried in lawsuits and bare the cost of setting case law. There is also the early adopter penalty - if we are only beginning to mine these elements, then it is likely that we have not developed the best practices for such mining and later opening mines that use more refined methods may be at a competitive advantage. Another thing to keep in mind is that if demand is growing, then the value of the reserves also grows by leaving it in the ground. Just as the Saudis have an interest in not extracting oil as fast as possible, so the landowners/ mining right owners have an interest in not overdeveloping mines until demand at a suitable price is there.

    10. Re:Supply and demand? by ircmaxell · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's the same reason alternatives to gasoline weren't heavily researched (at least publicly) until after gas hit $3 per gallon. Below a certain cost, these processes just aren't profitable. It only makes sense to build if you honestly think the cost of the products in question will go up in the future (or stay the same) and maintain a profit margin long enough to justify the investment. What the companies are afraid of, is that they'll dump the $500M into the plants/mines, and then get into a price war with China (and lose all hope of being profitable). But if China ever puts an embargo on us, or a huge tax is put on these minerals (Either via a Tariff or other measure), then it may become economically feasible (and companies will jump in on it)...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    11. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not likely, given the supply and the current and projected demand. But we should seriously start suing countries like China for unfair trade practices like destroying the environment. It's the same thing as subsidizing an industry. I like our environmental laws, people should not be allowed to dump the costs of their actions onto others, they should take personal responsibility.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    12. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a wonderfully humane way of thinking...

    13. Re:Supply and demand? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Real simple, if I have $20 million and it costs me $1 million a year to maintain my rights to the minerals and it is going to take me 25 years to get all the permits I need to start producing product, I will run out of money before I can start selling anything.
      The problem is that there are large legal barriers that create delay in actually getting a return on investment. The larger the start up costs and the longer between initiating activity and actually generating any revenue, the more money one needs to start the company. At some point that number becomes too large for anyone to bother.
      On the other hand there is a possibility he is just hitting up legislators for government money.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    14. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seeing as demand for rare earths far outstrips supply, I don't think your explanation holds water. Even given the unfair trade advantage China holds by not upholding environmental standards, a US supplier could make a huge profit. Also, given that this story comes from a rare earths company, if environmental issues were a factor, you would have heard their whining. Plenty of new mines have opened up in the US. Heck, we're stripping the tops off of most of the Appalachians as we speak. I sincerely doubt that any of this has to do with our entirely reasonable and responsible environmental laws.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    15. Re:Supply and demand? by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What a ridiculously short-sighted point of view. THEIR resources will run out eventually, and then we'll start using OUR resources, which will run out as well. Then what? Mad Max time?

      The only way to solve energy problems in the long term without eventually running out of resources is to use resources that are (for all practical purposes) infinite or infinitely renewable, like solar power or wind. With anything else, you're just kicking the can down the road.

      With things like minerals it's harder of course, because the reason we use these rare earth minerals is they have certain properties that make them desirable for the purpose we use them for. However, we can still put effort into developing renewable (or at least more abundant) alternatives where possible, and aggressively recycling materials whenever we can.

    16. Re:Supply and demand? by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      If it takes a billion to build the factory and needs eight years to get going, then you need to be able to raise a billion dollars, keep a float for over eight years before even hoping to break even (because you know that first year isn't going to produce a billion in profits).

      Not a scenario many can pull off.

    17. Re:Supply and demand? by Talderas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People really underestimate the greens when it comes to obstructing progress.

      I mean come on, how can you trust a group that bitches about how unclean coal is and then holds up the building of Solar power with litigation waiting for environmental impact studies of plopping solar arrays in the middle of a desert.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    18. Re:Supply and demand? by Walter+White · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The minerals will sit there waiting until we are ready. In the mean time, separation technology will improve and (unless other sources are discovered) proce/value will increase. Once shortages occur, prices will skyrocket and producers will argue that we need to fast-track and sidestep environmental concerns in the name of security.

      - Profit!

    19. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dont forget that when these minerals are running out it'll be easier to get subsidies from the government to help
      stop an entire industry or sector from dying and to generate more taxes/jobs/whatever.

    20. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on how easily recyclable these elements are - if we only need a finite supply in circulation, then it might make sense to go ahead and profit from our supplies where as oil is gone when its gone.

    21. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      It is also a matter of opportunity cost. If you have no morals, and can make 100% profit on some insane debt gambling, in six months, or you could make a reasonably hefty 20% profit on this, but in eight years, where would you invest your money?

      Until we put a stop to Wall Street insanity, there will be no money to invest in actual useful projects like this.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    22. Re:Supply and demand? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Well, strictly spoken, the earth is a (largely) closed system in terms of mass flow. Material resources don't get lost, only diluted. The more diluted, the harder they are to recover, energetically. From a thermodynamic point of view, we can't really have a resource shortage at all - only an energy shortage. You are absolutely right, though, that under that consideration, taking energy out of non-renewable sources is not the best idea. With the sun giving us 1.3 kW/m2, we should be fine in the long term, as long as we act accordingly.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    23. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. All the other replies in this thread have been bullshit, but parent actually knows something about the state of the economy.

      If only the banks would stop it with their bullshit get rich quick schemes and start lending to people with solid business models again.

    24. Re:Supply and demand? by Dishevel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or wind turbine farms that ruin the view of our politicians.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    25. Re:Supply and demand? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, we don't even know how much of the rare earth minerals are in the US. Vast parts of the United States are either under surveyed or not surveyed at all.

      I'm up in Alaska and there is a huge fight over expanding mines and new mines.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_Mine
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dog_mine

      http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/rare_earths/mcs-2010-raree.pdf
      "In 2009, rare earths were not mined in the United States."

    26. Re:Supply and demand? by KermodeBear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, because we can sue, and win, and force payment from, the country of China in our own courts.

      That's about as effective as getting a Very Very Sternly Worded Letter from the UN warning you that you should stop murdering lots of people, otherwise you might get a Very Very VERY Sternly Worded Letter in the near future.

      Onoes, please, anything but that.

      --
      Love sees no species.
    27. Re:Supply and demand? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, separation costs are limited thermodynamically by the energy needed for separation. Therefore, they are tied to energy costs, which tend to go up lately. I have that feeling that the increase in energy costs might eat up the cost decrease by improved separation technique.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    28. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But kick the can down the road far enough and you might find a trash can with a soccer ball in it!

    29. Re:Supply and demand? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Some of the nastiest and most polluted places on the planet are in the ex-Soviet Union.

      Totalitarianism does make certain things easier up to a point.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    30. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems people in America only want to invest in fraudulent get rich quick gambling schemes these days.

      Wouldn't have anything to do with battalions of Sierra Club lawyers causing construction costs to quadruple, or just preclude the whole enterprise. No, couldn't be that. Must be the stoopid get rich quick amerikans!!!11

      misunderstanding basic economics

      You have your 'basic economics' right. What you're missing is some political reality. Building refineries, separation plants or opening new mines is the US is no longer feasible.

    31. Re:Supply and demand? by TheWizardTim · · Score: 1

      Yes, because I really want to get cancer from drinking water that is polluted by the mine that gathers these elements, or die in a mine collapse because the mine owner is too cheep to provide for safety bunkers.

      The number one rule for business is to internalize the profits, and externalized the costs.

      It is why gas is taxed to high in Europe. They are trying to capture the costs of the pollution and environmental hazards caused by the use of oil. It is why coal miners in the US die in a collapse, and the European coal miners spend 3-4 days in an emergency shelter waiting to be dug out.

    32. Re:Supply and demand? by Kagato · · Score: 1

      Cheap labor and no environmental concerns. You pollute the local village and give most of the kids cancer the maximum downside is they close the factory. It's just a building. You can always pull all the equipment out and build a factory somewhere else. That might change in 20 years, but right now China is still in the middle of it's Industrial Revolution.

    33. Re:Supply and demand? by Kaboom13 · · Score: 1

      Welcome to economics 101: Opportunity cost. Right now, investing in congressmen gives obscenely high returns, with little risk. Even when the bubble you paid them off to create bursts, they bail you out in a way that makes you even more money. Investing in this might be guaranteed to return a sizable profit at the end of 8 years it takes to build , and the 10+ years of operation it takes just to pay off it's construction. But that's 18 years you could have been making money hand over fist, and have even more money to invest. And assuming you do build that plant, and pay off the costs, and start seeing a profit? The people who invested in congressmen are going to use them to help themselves to a sizable percentage of your profits. After all, it's easy to paint your company as an evil environment destroying mega-corp making billions in revenue on the backs of the working man, and pass taxes that will end up as wealth redistribution to the politically connected.

      It's not enough to make profit, to attract large scale investment you must make MORE profit then the other available opportunities, or people who invest in you are throwing away money. Seeing as it is fair to expect people with $1 bil in capital to invest to do some research before investing, why would they invest in something that will make modest returns many years from now (assuming the plant gets finished on time, underbudget, and the EPA doesn't kill it completely halfway through) they could make massive returns right now with 0 risk?

    34. Re:Supply and demand? by TheWizardTim · · Score: 1

      The Nuclear Power Industry does this all the time. They have a horrid record when it comes to cost over runs and delays. Now they are trying to get rate payers to pay for the possible construction of a new nuclear plant that may or may not be built in the next 5 to 10 years.

      No insurance company will insure a nuclear plant.*
      No bank will loan money for construction of a nuclear plant.*

      *Without government guarantees.

    35. Re:Supply and demand? by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most likely the high cost and long wait times resulting from EPA, OSHA and various state agency regulations (not to mention fighting Greenpeace and other hippies) make it more economical to just import the stuff from China rather than try to mine it and build a processing plant here.

      If you had been alive before Nixon signed the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water act you wouldn't be so anti-environment. When I grew up in Cahokia, you could not drive through Sauget past the Monsanto plant with your windows down, even in hundred degree heat. It didn't just stink, it burned your lungs. Nowdays it's rare that you even smell anything.

      I think my right to breathe should trump Monsanto's privilege of making billions of dollars of profits more than they already do. THIS is why Free Trade is a BAD idea -- how can someone who likes to breathe compete with a country who doesn't give a damn how filthy and poisoned their country is?

      As to OSHA, that protects YOU. Did you know that more people die in Chinese mines than all the other mines in the world? Protecting workers from sociopaths who don't value human life in the least is a GOOD thing, unless you're one of the sociopaths who don't care about human life and don't work in a dangerous industry.

      EPA regs are a GOOD thing, and only the woefully ignorant think otherwise. It would do you good to read a little history.

      Now get off my lawn, yuppie!

    36. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Citations or STFU.

      Tell you what, I'll stay here where the clean air and water is, you can go live in China and breath filth all day long. Sound good?

      I'm sick and tired of the wealthy telling us we should clean up their mess for them, that they won't play ball unless we subsidize them by paying the costs of pollution.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    37. Re:Supply and demand? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      IMHO it makes more sense to save our resources while the rest of the world's supplies dwindle to nothing. Then the United States (and Canada) can charge a small fortune since we will be the sole supplier for coal, oil, and other rare minerals. We will be as wealthy as Arab shieks.

      BUT that's long term thinking. It will be ignored.

      I was reading an interesting story about how enterprising New Englanders would transport frozen lake ice from Massachusetts/New Hampsphire, down the Alantic coast, and sell it to Carolinians/Georgians to provide refrigeration (in the 1700s). Where has that kind of bravado gone? It seems Americans would rather let the Chinese take those kinds of risks, and that's why they have mineral processing plants while we do not.

      This is somewhat similar to how most of the productivity in the late Roman Republic moved away from Italy and into the provinces. Of course that eventually led to heavy taxation to support the central Italian power/welfare state, and eventually feudalism in the 300s as the middle classes lost their private lands, and became serfs.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    38. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We have international courts and trade agreements. If they don't play fair, they can get slapped with tariffs or outright bans. And if they won't play ball at all, well, by our own rules we should not be trading with them.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    39. Re:Supply and demand? by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      From a thermodynamic point of view, we can't really have a resource shortage at all - only an energy shortage.

      Hahahaha. Technically, you're right. But let's re-join reality for a moment. How many orders of magnitude more energy does it take to recycle bits of "diluted" materials than it does to dig them up out of huge monolithic sources? We can't even manage to offset a tiny fraction of our total current energy usage with renewables, and that's just counting energy, not extropy. Add in trying to offset physical resource depletion, and you'd have to cover entire countries with solar collectors to even come close to sustainability. From a thermodynamic point of view, in the "long term", we're screwed. And what we're doing now is trading short-term non-screwedness of energy abundance for medium-term screwedness of resource scarcity.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    40. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Wow, yeah, sounds like those mines are costing everyone else a lot of money by polluting. Why should I subsidize someone else's mining operation? They should pay all the costs they incur, and pollution costs money.

      What we should do is fine importers who damage the environment, in order to cover the costs. That will help out local industries that do the right thing and do not try to externalize their costs.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    41. Re:Supply and demand? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If these rare earths are so rare and valuable, and only going to become more so, why should the upfront cost matter? The plant should still make a huge profit, unless I am misunderstanding basic economics.

      You're misunderstanding basic economics on two fronts;

      1. High prices don't mean huge profits if there are high costs involved.
         
      2. And there will be high costs involved here - due the need to commit funds years in advance to work through the regulatory process, the inevitable lawsuits from NIMBYs. acquisition of machinery, construction, and start up. The interest charges alone will amount to quite a sum.
    42. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      We have a winner! The answer is "Opportunity cost!" That's right, why invest in things society find useful when you can gamble outrageously, crash the economy, and get paid billions? We've created a system that encourages pathology and rewards sociopaths. Yay us.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    43. Re:Supply and demand? by badran · · Score: 1

      Ban China.... You must be kidding... How will everyone get their 10 cent stuff??? And where do you think most of your PC is manufactured?

    44. Re:Supply and demand? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Of course! Government regulation and hippies, the scapegoat for Slashdotters the world over! What didn't *I* think of that??

    45. Re:Supply and demand? by bhima · · Score: 1

      Given America's inability to adopt serious ecological policies, the refusal to recycle tech waste and instead to transport it to developing nations... I'm not seeing any developing nation willing to take it ever running out of rare earth minerals to sell to the Chinese.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    46. Re:Supply and demand? by eh2o · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its not the cost of regulation that is high, its the cost of doing things right and safely. China effectively uses human life and environmental destruction to offset production costs. So far there is no developed nation that is able to match the prices that the chinese are giving us, so it would seem that we are not willing to give up the protections that we now take for granted in a civilized society.

      Its economical to keep buying from them, but its not morally correct because we are simply enabling the the ruling class of chinese society to continue to exploit the land and people in ways that would be considered gross negligence if we saw it first hand.

    47. Re:Supply and demand? by jduhls · · Score: 1

      I mean, really! It's like humans have a reputation for really screwing up the environment or something. Those other times were just anomalies. I'm sure it can't happen again.

    48. Re:Supply and demand? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      I realize that energy usage will be prohibitive to resource recovery at some point. It remains to be determined where that point actually is - e.g. uranium recovery from seawater might actually be feasible. I have no idea where that point is for rare earths, though. Rare earths are not actually rare, after all. They tend to be well diluted, with few high concentration deposits. That's exactly where the thermodynamic angle comes in, so we have to think about this in terms of energy availability.

      I am perfectly realistic about the fact that we can't switch to a sustainable energy economy over night. Before we cover whole countries with solar cells, we should rather get a better yield from solar thermal, add in nuclear as an intermediate solution and we better hope that we get fusion running. We won't run out of hydrogen that fast.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    49. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it takes a billion to build the factory and needs eight years to get going, then you need to be able to raise a billion dollars, keep a float for over eight years before even hoping to break even (because you know that first year isn't going to produce a billion in profits).

      Not a scenario many can pull off.

      And then once you are actually producing, China floods the market and/or drops its prices by half -just long enough for you to go into bankruptcy and dismantle/sell your equipment, then returns production/prices to previous values and continues to dominate the market.

    50. Re:Supply and demand? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pebble Mine is the big fight here right now, probably the second biggest single copper deposit of its type on the planet.

      The main anti-mining group just had to pay 100,000 in "settlement" for funneling money into the anti-mining initiative.

    51. Re:Supply and demand? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those are good acts but still unconstitutional (per Bill of Rights 9 and 10). The U.S. Constitution should be amended to specifically grant Congress said power to regulate the air and water's clarity. I believe in following the Supreme Law as written, and amending it as needed to assign new powers to the U.S. government as time advance

      Horsepoop. Really, just plain horsepoop.

      Although lots of clauses in the Constitution have been abused, establishing clean air and water are textbook examples of measures taken "to promote the general welfare". There is no amendment needed.

      What is needed is for knee-jerk strict constitutionalism to be laid to rest. The world is much different than it was 220 years ago. Deal with it.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    52. Re:Supply and demand? by srussia · · Score: 1

      Not likely, given the supply and the current and projected demand. But we should seriously start suing countries like China for unfair trade practices like destroying the environment. It's the same thing as subsidizing an industry. I like our environmental laws, people should not be allowed to dump the costs of their actions onto others, they should take personal responsibility.

      Destroying whose environment exactly? If I damage your property, there are already laws stipulating personal liability to provide restitution. If ownership of this "environment" is not defined, who bears the cost of the action?

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    53. Re:Supply and demand? by rapierian · · Score: 1

      Rare earth elements, yes. Oil, no. Oil is a complex molecular soup, yes, but made from fairly common elements - and we can in fact produce it ourselves: http://www.changingworldtech.com/ Oil is therefore not a finite resource, which is one more reason why continuing to be the only major country that doesn't try and develop its own resources, the Bakken reserves, ANWR, the Gulf deposits, and all of the other areas where we could be producing oil on our own land (and certainly cleaner than most other countries drilling processes), is purely idiotic, and religiously environmentalist.

    54. Re:Supply and demand? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I mean come on, how can you trust a group that bitches about how unclean coal is and then holds up the building of Solar power with litigation waiting for environmental impact studies of plopping solar arrays in the middle of a desert.

      Oh yes. Let's admit we have a problem, and then go ahead and implement a solution without bothering to evaluate that solution.

      I hope to God you don't have any sort of responsibility for any systems I use.

      And, for what it's worth, do you really think that "greens" are part of a single organized group with a single platform of goals and ideals? Have you ever bothered to consider that "greens" constitute a large number of people with diverse concerns? It's quite possible for some people who are "greens" to think it's OK to damage wild deserts in the name of reducing carbon output -- and there are some "greens" who are more concerned with maintaining a natural environment.

      But whatever dude... your tired complaint of a large group of people having members with sometimes conflicting interests is useless for any kind of rational discussion.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    55. Re:Supply and demand? by Moridineas · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, because I really want to get cancer from drinking water that is polluted by the mine that gathers these elements, or die in a mine collapse because the mine owner is too cheep to provide for safety bunkers.

      What year do you think this is, 1900? Mining is not perfectly safe. It never ever will be. In 2008 in the US, 15 people died in coal mine accidents. In 2007 the number was 21. In 2007, China -- the worst in the world -- had 4746 deaths.

      In 2007 the US produced 1,147 million short tons of coal. China produced 2,795.

      By comparison the only European countries with significant coal production are Germany and Poland. Germany produces about 1/5 of the US, and Poland produces even less (this is true presently and in 2007). Numbers for the European countries are hard to find, but accidents are not. Barely 6 months ago (2009) at least 17 miners died in Poland. Google Ruda Soska if you're unfamiliar with it.

      Am I missing anything here? Are the very few remaining European coal mines really that different from the US or Canada?

      It is why gas is taxed to high in Europe

      Is THAT why gas is taxed so highly in Europe?

      It is why coal miners in the US die in a collapse, and the European coal miners spend 3-4 days in an emergency shelter waiting to be dug out.

      See/rebut above?

    56. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've created a system that encourages pathology and rewards sociopaths. Yay us.

      Speaking as a sociopath...

      Exactly. Yay us.

      But we don't need your cheers. We get our kicks from the inexorable grinding of the working class in the grist mill of profit.

      Now, where did I put my Senator's personal cell number...

    57. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What are you talking about, fool? The last time there was a collapse (WV, 2006), it was due to an explosion so an "emergency shelter" would have been pointless. Modern mines don't just fall in nicely because they're having a bad day.

      They are trying to capture the costs of the pollution and environmental hazards caused by the use of oil.

      Yeah, I'm sure your taxes are being directly used to clean the environment and improve safety.

    58. Re:Supply and demand? by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      If you had been alive before Nixon signed the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water act you wouldn't be so anti-environment. When I grew up in Cahokia, you could not drive through Sauget past the Monsanto plant with your windows down, even in hundred degree heat. It didn't just stink, it burned your lungs. Nowdays it's rare that you even smell anything.

      What's with the straw man? I don't think ANYBODY would argue against regulating such things. However, regulating toxic chemicals and noxious vapors is very different than deciding (e.g.) you can't build a wind farm because some birds are going to die.

    59. Re:Supply and demand? by operagost · · Score: 1

      Of course, they won't get it because they have government at the barrel of a gun, as Mao would say. The perfect "capitalist" environment.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    60. Re:Supply and demand? by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      This is why the entire concept of "stop using foreign oil" is wrong

      Imagine instead of growing your own apples, you went to your neighbour's place and bought some of his apples. After all, why grow your own apples when you can just buy them elsewhere? Now imagine your neighbour then turns around and gives a portion of his apple profits (which he's earned fro you) to his crazy brother. The crazy brother then proceeds to use the money he's just been given to buy dynamite, which he lights and repeatedly chucks at your house.

      Sooner or later you'd decide to either stop eating apples, or start to grow your own.

    61. Re:Supply and demand? by rickb928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The world is much different than it was 220 years ago. Deal with it."The world is much different than it was 220 years ago. Deal with it."

      Maybe so, but people are the same. And our Constitution is actually intended to restrain people from behaving badly, more or less.

      So which right(s) do you think is(are) now outmoded in our 'different' world? It's not the knee-jerk strict constitutionalists I fear, it's those who would pick and choose which parts to keep and which to use, and do so without the approval process that includes people like me. At least give us a choice we can vote on, instead of picking away at our rights behind closed doors and deceitful legislation.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    62. Re:Supply and demand? by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever heard of the WTO? We most certainly can sue them, and not only over this, but also over their labor practices and especially their blatant price fixing. Why don't we? We don't want to lose the trade partner.

    63. Re:Supply and demand? by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      If these rare earths are going to become more valuable, why should we be in a hurry to exploit them until they do so?

    64. Re:Supply and demand? by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Those are good acts but still unconstitutional (per Bill of Rights 9 and 10). The U.S. Constitution should be amended to specifically grant Congress said power to regulate the air and water's clarity.

      Insofar as dirty water and dirty air move from one state to the next, Congress has explicit power to regulate under the interstate commerce clause. Insofar as it is impractical to regulate interstate movement of dirty air and dirty water without regulating the intrastate production of such, Congress has explicit power under the "necessary and proper" clause. (Both of Article I, Section 8.)

    65. Re:Supply and demand? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying our system is perfect. What I AM saying is that modern society requires concerted action on a scale that makes strict Constitutionalism useless. The Constitution is a dead document. Realistically it can't be touched... so instead we use it as a guide for governance.

      Ironically, one of the reasons it's a dead document is because of the Constitutionalists who believe it is sacred... these are some of the same people who insist any federal action be specifically provided for via Constitutional amendment. I find most of these people to be blissfully unaware of all the things that our government makes possible that their libertarian utopia would not have.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    66. Re:Supply and demand? by Clayperion · · Score: 1

      Realistically, a large amount of the heavy metals we get from China end up getting sent back there as waste (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/toxics/electronics/where-does-e-waste-end-up). By researching reclamation techniques, we can hopefully reuse some of what we get in the first place.

    67. Re:Supply and demand? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>It sounds like he has every intention of making a huge profit, he'd just prefer to have taxpayers build his plant, offer him some nice tax "incentives", maybe waive an inconvenient environmental protection rule or two first...

      To be fair, environmental nuts are the reason that China is doing most of this kind of stuff nowadays.

      Because it's sooo much better for the earth when China spits out CO2 than us, right?

    68. Re:Supply and demand? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      That commie Nixon also signed in that Endangered Species Act. Who the hell is he to tell me what I can and can't hunt or what land I can develop.

      I mean, just name any other president that's been as an environmentalists as Nixon?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    69. Re:Supply and demand? by Faw · · Score: 2, Funny

      All we need to do is make a small city near the resources in China and send a 'Great Artist' to create a 'Great Work'. Once the borders expand we can mine the stuff... easy...

    70. Re:Supply and demand? by sheph · · Score: 1

      You make a very good point in that the resources are finite. Eventually they run out and then we're screwed. But I don't think solar and wind are the long term solutions they've been made out to be. Solar and wind are both expensive to implement and maintain. They also require finite resources for the construction and maintenance. The only reason we are seeing so much growth in those areas are because of the massive subsidies coming from the government. What happens when consumers are forced to pay the whole cost and it's no longer being subsidized? Hope you like sitting in the dark.

      The other problem with both is that they don't provide as much power as other renewables like hydro. Even hydro has it's problems like decreased flow in the waterways, fish destruction, and it still needs maintenance. But wind is so much worse when it comes to the cost:energy equation. I'm looking at a hydro unit that's putting out over 70 MW right now, while the sum of all 5 of our wind farms are adding up to 30-40. We could maintain that one generator for 20 years for what it costs us to maintain a windfarm for one. Furthermore, when the wind dies down you still need to replace the generation from spinning reserves somewhere. Solar's great in the daytime, but what about at night, when it's raining, or we have cloud cover? In combination with other things that provide static generation like coal, gas, or nuke they help to conserve those finite resources, but solar and wind are never going to be able to stand by themselves. When those other resources run out we're still in the same position as we would be if they ran out today.

      From a purely economic standpoint it makes sense to use the resources in the middle east before our own. Is it the nice, and neighborly thing to do? No, but then how are we viewed by the rest of the world? Most of the rest of the world hates us anyway, and would just as soon throw us under the nearest oncoming bus. Even when we try to help it's perceived as interference, warmongering, and dominance. When it comes down to my children starving in the street or theirs, it's not a tough decision for me.

      --
      I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
    71. Re:Supply and demand? by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's no straw man except the one you just constructed; we're talking about regulating the mining of TOXIC MINERALS, not putting up a wind farm, and the poster I responded to put forth that regulating these things was a bad idea. If you don't think anybody would argue againt regulating such things, then read the post I responded to.

    72. Re:Supply and demand? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      So, if there was a way to get energy from outside the earth and use it to reform hydrocarbons...

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    73. Re:Supply and demand? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Why pay Americans to sort in the US when you can have it done in a location eg latin/south America, Asia, Africa, Australia ect at lower rates?
      It keeps the locals on side top down, lets all the run off and clean up off be a local problem and the US can get to the raw materials via 'aid' and 'debt' infrastructure.
      Investing around the world means the US wins, wins and wins.
      Politically they can 'pay' for politicians as they control the mines, socially everybody works for a 'big American' and the US is blocking other parts of the world from investing.
      If the locals start taking samples and talking about unions they are removed.
      If "Greenpeace and other hippies" start to become active they can be distracted with C02, Apple computers, bears and other more pressing issues.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    74. Re:Supply and demand? by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      I guess you're one of those guys who sees the word "desert" and thinks of the Sahara or the lunar surface-- the long and the short of it is, there's no such thing as a lifeless desert. If there's anything decades of environmental awareness (should have) taught us, it's that "plopping" stuff without thinking about how and where can have serious consequences. I'll be among the first to admit that groups like Greenpeace are probably too fanatical to be proposing solutions (rejection of all things nuclear, for example), but there has to come a point where we don't embrace the quick and easy solution without at least giving some thought to all the impacts.

      I had a friend tell me once that oil/gas pipelines are beneficial to tundra wildlife because they get a warm place to cozy up to. Seriously. No thought whatsoever about how climate change will affect their habitats, or about how wildlife could starve to death as a result. I suppose it was all good in his head because moose get a free campfire out of the deal before they die.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    75. Re:Supply and demand? by chill · · Score: 1

      Please look up the definition of "fungible". The summary being, my neighbor has plenty of market for apples. If I don't buy them, there is a line of other people waiting to. My not buying them does nothing to deprive his crazy brother from tossing explosives my way. It may make you feel morally superior, but does nothing to address the issue.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    76. Re:Supply and demand? by baegucb · · Score: 1

      China seems to play the game differently.

      "China joined the W.T.O. in 2001 and in its first seven years filed only three cases. But it has stepped up its pace recently, and has filed four of the 15 cases in the last year: two against the United States, on poultry and tires, and two against the European Union, on steel fasteners and poultry."

      from http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/business/global/15yuan.html

      China seems to be throwing their weight around lately, I guess because the US is busy with 2 wars, and the West's economy is in trouble.

    77. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have $500 - $1B to invest? You can't ignore upfront cost. And while the plant may eventually make a profit, it will probably take awhile before you get your money back. In the meantime that money could have been making babies (perhaps investing in China).

    78. Re:Supply and demand? by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      you can't build a wind farm because some birds are going to die.

      Except they know birds are not going to die in any numbers worth consideration. Companies were actively working on solutions before it ever actually became a problem, and LONG before these wackos got wind of it. Companies don't like bad press. Lots of dead animals tends to create bad press. Companies were looking at the situation before there ever were, "lots of dead animals." Additionally, roosting birds (and bees for that matter) are well known to cause problems for equipment - including fires and maintenance issues. Long story short, contrary to the bullshit of environmental extremists, which is often parroted, no such wide spread problem exists or ever existed. They saved nothing. They rescued nothing. The only thing they've done is spew a bunch of bullshit and steal credit from companies deploying and maintaining wind farms.

      This does not mean a random, dumb, bird won't get killed. But if this is really a problem, then all roads must immediately be shutdown, all factories must be stopped, all electric use must come to a halt. That's not hyperbole, that's fact. Lots of animals die from roads and current power production. Not to mention, the environment is directly affected, even with EPA regulations, from lots of various manufacturing methods. Hindering efforts to improves things only makes things worse for everyone. Realistically, there are things we should be worried about, but halting production of new, clean power, which is far more likely to benefit everyone isn't one of them.

      Things to seriously be concerned about: drastic over fishing in the oceans (especially by Asian countries), over logging in the amazon, illegal waste disposal, lack of new nuclear sites, lack of nuclear waste storage, massive wild bore population explosion world wide (poses risk to everyone and everything), non-indigenous species invasions, etc... But building solar in the middle of the desert doesn't even come up on the list. And neither does building wind farms.

    79. Re:Supply and demand? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      While I agree with the idea of trying to limit how much money we shower the middle-east with, I gotta say there's a big problem with your analogy. The "crazy brother" can always find other ways to finance his adventures.

      The real problem isn't that the sheiks are funding terrorists - the problem is that they're funding the spread of Wahhabi Islam across the globe. Instead of just giving money to crazy people, they're using their money to make more crazy people. They're the biggest road-block on the path to achieving a more moderate mainstream Islam.

    80. Re:Supply and demand? by chill · · Score: 1

      All true, but only a related tangent to what I was talking about. Do both, since they aren't mutually exclusive and developing alternative sources is definitely in our (and their) best interests. But while working on alternatives, comparative advantage rules the day.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    81. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So to avoid impacting the "wild desert" we end up sticking with the status quo - destroying the entire planet. Well played, Mr Green!

    82. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like how China promised to clean up Beijing for the Olympics and then didn't. Huge public out cry there... I think Michael Phelps got more international coverage that that did.
      (of course this was overshadowed by what was going on in Tibet at the time, Who thought it would be a good idea to have the Olympics in China, again?)
       
        Telling China to stop polluting the environment is like telling North Korea to stop trying to make ICBMs.

    83. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think my whole PC was manufactured there. I just ordered it the other day and it shipped from Shanghai, CN according to UPS. It is currently making its way from Anchorage to somewhere else, to me.

    84. Re:Supply and demand? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      That would basically transform hydrocarbons from a depletable energy source into an energy carrier. The main question here is whether hydrocarbons are a more efficient energy carrier/storage than hydrogen over the whole transport/storage/usage circle. But yeah, generally that emphasizes what I am saying - if we are not energy limited, we are not resource limited, within practical boundaries, of course.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    85. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with that way of thinking? Us being smart doesn't mean they have to be stupid. They can choose to do the same thing, which would then force us to start using our own. Absolutely nothing wrong with that way of thinking.

    86. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are good acts but still unconstitutional (per Bill of Rights 9 and 10). The U.S. Constitution should be amended to specifically grant Congress said power to regulate the air and water's clarity.

      You're absolutely correct, but it isn't particularly relevant these days, since the population has been indoctrinated to believe that the Federal government can effectively do whatever it wants (via taking the "commerce" clause or the "general welfare clause" of the taxing power out of context). The simpletons don't grasp that granting the federal government more power was supposed to be hard (even for a worthy cause like clean air or water).

      Unfortunately, they've won. Just look at how your perfectly reasonable comment has been rated down to nothing, while the ignorant responses in direct violation of the spirit of the constitution are somehow "insightful". Once a population has reached the point where such ignorance is celebrated as wisdom, any chance of maintaining a republic is pretty much dead. If I were you, I'd stock up on canned goods for the coming dark age.

    87. Re:Supply and demand? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>> "to promote the general welfare".

      Completely and totally wrong. To quote Jefferson: "The Congress are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare.... [G]iving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please."

      And James Madison the AUTHOR of the constitution (and therefore knows better than anyone what he meant when HE wrote it): "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one. There is nothing more natural than to start with a general phrase, and than qualify that phrase with a list of limited, particular powers."

      In other words, you need to read the WHOLE sentence, and while I can find many lines to give Congress power to build roads, and erect a post office, and regulate commerce AMONG the states (not inside the states), there is not one word to regulating the quality of air or water.

      And therefore I repeat: We should amend the constitution to give Congress that power, rather than ignore the Bill of Rights 9th and 10th and create a unbounded government with no Law to restrain it. I think I'm being reasonable in my opinion, and do not deserve to be labeled a "troll" for expressing it.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    88. Re:Supply and demand? by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 2, Informative

      And by "not wanting to lose a trading partner," you really mean "not wanting to lose the group that lends us boatloads of money."

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    89. Re:Supply and demand? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Clean Air Act and the Clean Water act

      Those are good acts but still unconstitutional (per Bill of Rights 9 and 10). The U.S. Constitution should be AMENDED to specifically grant Congress said power to regulate the air and water's clarity. I support the Clean Air & Water Acts, but also believe in following the Supreme Law as written, and amending it as needed..... not create a lawless society where congress can do whatever the hell it feels like doing, without restraint.

      .

      >>>THIS is why Free Trade is a BAD idea -- how can someone who likes to breathe compete with a country who doesn't give a damn how filthy and poisoned their country is?
      >>>

      The typical argument is that Free Trade will raise China to our economic level, and then its wealthy citizens will demand clean air and water, just as the Americans and Europeans and Japanese did. (Please note I'm not saying I agree with that argument... just repeating what Free Traders' claim.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    90. Re:Supply and demand? by CreepingDeath_3e · · Score: 1

      Why don't we just use the Artist's power and convert one of their cities?

    91. Re:Supply and demand? by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I disagree. The GP said:

      high cost and long wait times resulting from EPA, OSHA and various state agency regulations (not to mention fighting Greenpeace and other hippies)

      State regulations have a huge cost on business. I would bet money that the GP is NOT in favor of repealing all of these regulations. Nonetheless the point stands that regulations can actually do more damage when our pollution is just shipped abroad to places like China where laws are either nonexistent or ignored.

      Mining does not by definition require there to be toxic chemical spills and pollution. The kind of obstructionism that groups like Greenpeace (see the GP's post) put up absolutely has an impact on developments.

      Lastly, for a very different take from yours on the issue of government regulation and the ultimate impact of laws and policy on the environment, I would recommend: "FABLES OF THE CUYAHOGA: RECONSTRUCTING A HISTORY OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION" (http://law.case.edu/faculty/adler_jonathan/publications/fables_of_the_cuyahoga.pdf)

    92. Re:Supply and demand? by Fished · · Score: 1

      I agree with you in principle, but not in the particular. Here's why I think that the clean air and clean water acts are okay, constitutionally. It is because Air and water pollution are necessarily interstate concerns. Imagine a factory in Virginia, on the border between Virginia and North Carolina, with a nice stiff north wind. What incentive would Virginia have to regulate its emissions? Clearly, this is a form of interstate commerce (albeit a negative one.) Likewise, let's suppose that a factory in Southern Michigan is pumping a toxic pollutant into a tributary of the MIssissippi, .5 miles north of the state line. What incentive does Michigan have to deal with it? Yet this pollutant is so toxic as to kill off the whole Mississippi river, all the way to New Orleans! This is a navigable waterway and a major fishery, over which the federal government clearly has jurisdiction, yet for that jurisdiction to mean anything they need the clean air and clean water acts, or something much like them.

      Would a constitutional amendment be nice? Yes, it would, I suppose. But I don't think it's necessary.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    93. Re:Supply and demand? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So to avoid impacting the "wild desert" we end up sticking with the status quo - destroying the entire planet. Well played, Mr Green!

      Far better to consider the impact of action than to act rashly without understanding the consequences.

      For that matter, beyond the consequences, are we a rational society or not? If we aim to be a rational society, why would we not want discourse on a divisive course of action?

      There is a reason that the phrase "look before you leap" is used so often. I'll let you try to figure out the reason.

      Keep in mind that deciding on the fate of this one plant will set a precedent for many more.

      Granted, I believe a lot of it is NIMBYism, and I also believe that petrodollars fund some of the solar obstructionists. But as people, we need potential courses of action to be studied, discussed, and debated. You dismiss their objections to the solar plant... fine. Good thing you're not the Decider here. Those with specialized knowledge can do the specialized assessment needed. I know I'm not competent to do so... but I'm glad someone is.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    94. Re:Supply and demand? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Besides the Solar Carbon work, we're also working on H2 transport, storage, and fuel cells here. There's some tricky problems with H2, including storage embrittlement and dispensing. It may turn out that H2 is used as a storage medium in large underground tanks near power plants, rather than for personal transport fuel. Can take excess/off peak solar/wind production, crack water down to H2, and then burn it later when needed.

      I favor electric cars as we already have electrical distribution set up. Just need to improve battery life, improve motor conversion, and of course, electrical production.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    95. Re:Supply and demand? by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      If these rare earths are so rare and valuable, and only going to become more so, why should the upfront cost matter? The plant should still make a huge profit, unless I am misunderstanding basic economics.

      The economics seem sound, you're forgetting how corporate culture is, though. Everything runs on short-term profits and performance bonuses with today's CXXs. That's why most companies are laying off experienced people and selling off profitable ventures to the highest bidder, it's about differences that can be made on the balance sheet now, not about the health of the company down the road. Everyone will have safely jettisoned away on their Golden Parachutes by then, so who cares?

      With an eight-year building time for a plant, it would be a decade before such a project really showed sizable profits for a company. The people who make the decision to go ahead with the project today would not likely be the ones to reap the financial benefits of such a venture, they would be "the next guy to sit in my chair", they would only be remembered as "that guy who sucked all our profits into building that expensive plant for all those years". So it's no wonder they aren't interested in this, it's does nothing for them personally!

      More worrisome is people's eagerness to sell out real estate to foreign ventures. Here's a scenario:

      • Person owns large swath of land with these tech-useful elements in the ground.
      • U.S. companies slow to act because of corporate culture issue above.
      • Chinese investors come over and offer to buy said land.
      • Current owner accepts (Chinese money now > U.S. money later to them, after all).
      • Chinese now control both their own supplies and U.S. supplies now.
      • U.S. firms now price-squeezed for their country's own natural resources.
    96. Re:Supply and demand? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Well obviously I did not label you a troll, since I posted in the thread.

      But I can tell you that excessive use of boldface and capitals make it seem like you're a little unhinged... no need to get worked up about it.

      At any rate, while you can quote Jefferson and Madison all you like, it doesn't change the reality that strict adherence to the Constitution died a long time ago. You can scream and rant and rave all you want, but it's not going to change a thing. The Legislature will continue to pass laws, and the Executive will continue to enforce them, and the Judiciary will continue to rule on them as they all see fit, with only a token nod to the intent of the framers of the Constitution.

      You know that we're past the point of passing Constitutional amendments. You know that what you're asking for is a pipe dream. So why not do something more useful than piss into the wind?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    97. Re:Supply and demand? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      You are raising a good point there - a monolithic view of future energy concepts is probably not the way. Optimizing different applications separately and tying it together would probably shave off some losses that couldn't be avoided in a monolithic system. Hydrogen as off peak storage for power plants is a new concept to me, but I am by no means an expert there. Sounds interesting, and would probably be way more compact than compressed air or thermal storage in molten salt/metal, and would surely provide more capacity and flexibility than flywheels. Gotta do some reading up on this when I get time. Thanks for the pointers.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    98. Re:Supply and demand? by ak3ldama · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What we should do is fine importers who damage the environment, in order to cover the costs. That will help out local industries that do the right thing and do not try to externalize their costs.

      But, but... free trade bro! No one believes in tariffs anymore. It is ridiculous. Hopefully the price of fuel goes way up, so "free" trade will come to grips with reality. Our leaders have led us astray.

      It is my personal belief that low fuel prices fuel the misguided free trade of the last half century or so. I am not even your typical hippy that hates pollution and cries when watching Al Gore. I just think that free trade is a failed experiment that makes the rich richer at an alarming rate. I might be wrong - of course - but that's what it seems like to me. Taxes via tariffs seems like the appropriate place, and protectionism is a good idea until you ask a multinational corporation. (Or the bought and paid for "libertarian" think takes that pander on and on about market choice and efficiency... blah blah blah.)

      --
      "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    99. Re:Supply and demand? by Shotgun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Constitution is a dead document. Realistically it can't be touched... so instead we use it as a guide for governance.

      Horsepoop. Really, just plain horsepoop.
      The Constitution is a living document. It was devised to be amended. There is a well defined process for amending it that has been used dozens of times before.

      Of course, you qualified your statement with "realistically", which basically means either "not fast enough to suit my tastes" or "not in a manner which will allow power to accrue to the federal government without a proper vetting period so that normal people realize that all their rights are vanishing into thin air."

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    100. Re:Supply and demand? by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      uhuh. *fart*

      and when they call in the trillions in loans the USA owes them? then what?

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    101. Re:Supply and demand? by TheWizardTim · · Score: 1

      Sorry, it might have not been coal. I was going off of memory. All that I remember is that not long after the Sago mine collapse, where several miners were killed, a mine collapsed in Europe. Because of the stricter laws the miners had a bunker they retreated to that had food, water and air for all of them. A few days later when the rescuers dug them out, they were fine. Without the bunker, they would have died. People asked about doing something like that in the US, and the answer was, "It's too costly." At that time, a former Mine owner was in charge of US mine safety, and would not push for more regulation.

      My point was that I would rather pay more for gas, coal, copper, iron, or whatever, knowing that the people who are risking their lives are given every chance to survive a disaster.

    102. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not likely, given the supply and the current and projected demand. But we should seriously start suing countries like China for unfair trade practices like destroying the environment. It's the same thing as subsidizing an industry. I like our environmental laws, people should not be allowed to dump the costs of their actions onto others, they should take personal responsibility.

      Which side you are on? You want more rare earth (cause more pollutions to China) or suing for less pollution, therefore less rare earth supply. You can't have it both ways. It's the like you want your iPod for $300, then turn around complaining people in China making 50 cents per hour.

    103. Re:Supply and demand? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Its not the cost of regulation that is high, its the cost of doing things right and safely.

      Wyoming has an enormous rare earth mine that was (IIRC) shut down ~30 years ago because of environmental reasons.

      Anyways, the problem isn't just mining, but refining.
      China has almost all the refining capacity and no one else wants to spend money to compete.
      Someone was going to build a huge plant in (IIRC) Thailand but the deal fell apart.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    104. Re:Supply and demand? by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      Add 20 times the quoted figures or more to beat down the enviro-luddites and it's a non-starter.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    105. Re:Supply and demand? by TopSpin · · Score: 1

      Citations or STFU.

      You first, spun. It's your thread.

      I'll stay here where the clean air and water is, you can go live in China and breath filth

      Status quo, no? The west has been exporting its pollution to Asia for about half a century now because people like you won't tolerate suffering the consequences of your 'lifestyle.'

      I'm sick and tired of the wealthy

      You ARE the wealthy. You pay other people to live in your filth and argue for perpetuating the arrangement. The fact that you don't understand this is the most damning evidence of you ignorance this medium is capable of conveying.

      Or perhaps you do understand... either way, be sure to read my reply on your Chinese build display and then use your Chinese built keyboard to create your brilliance response. All the Chinese made network gear in between will permit us to continue this thrilling debate at our leisure. Especially the part about how us poor folk are getting fucked by the wealthy.

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
    106. Re:Supply and demand? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Right on!

      More to the point, our current Administration is unwilling to subject their most intrusive proposals to scrutiny, for whatever reason.

      So, as it is with many other proposals, we should consider this unwillingness to fully explain the measure as reason enough alone to be suspicious. And that's reason enough to reject it.

      But back to the point that the Constitution is a 'dead' document?

      Six amendments have been enacted since 1950.
      Twelve amendments have been enacted since 1900. One, the Eighteenth Amendment, was repealed by the Twenty-First Amendment, so ten unique and active amendments have been enacted since 1900. 'Those two' cancelled each other out...

      The Fourteenth Amendment in particular addressed several issues, and shows a way to resolve multiple problems with one instrument. Not that this is the preferred way, but arguments that admendments are unnecessarily difficult and so bundling several solutions into one is expeditious but dangerous have to deal with the apparent success of this measure.

      The concept that our Constitution is unwieldy and so cannot govern our nation's affairs in a dynamic modern environment is an excuse for ignoring it when it suits the powers in place. This is not a partisan issue, nor is it limited to any single branch of government. Our Constitution is fundamental to our nation, and should not be easy to change.

      Again, our Constitution should NOT be easy to change. It guides our government in fundamental ways, and grants us rights and privileges that should not be modified without sober judgement and careful consideration.

      Current abuses make this even more clear to me.

      And to describe 'constitutionalists' as "blissfully unaware of all the things that our government makes possible that their libertarian utopia would not have" is both an insult and inaccurate. I'm not a Libertarian, but our government makes possible the warrantless spying on my communications (NSA, telco collusion, email surveillance, ISP monitoring, etc), seizure of my property without due process for no stated cause (laptop confiscation at the border for LEGAL returning citizens), and the intentional proposed usurping of an entire industry (a healthcare proposal to regulate the health insurance into oblivion). None of these are Utopian ideas for a Libertarian, and I believe they are not Utopian for your average citizen. All of these actions have reasoned and well-explained intentions, but they are unconstitutional and just plain wrong.

      whew. I get a little worked up when people justify ignoring our Constitution. If you want to change it, do so. If you don't like this nation because of it, consider your alternatives.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    107. Re:Supply and demand? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I had a friend tell me once that oil/gas pipelines are beneficial to tundra wildlife because they get a warm place to cozy up to. Seriously. No thought whatsoever about how climate change will affect their habitats, or about how wildlife could starve to death as a result. I suppose it was all good in his head because moose get a free campfire out of the deal before they die.

      You'll want to research the story of the reindeer and the Alaskan oil pipeline.

      Not a fan of fossil fuels, but the government prevents anything else.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    108. Re:Supply and demand? by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      "...when the world was powered by the black fuel. And the desert sprouted great cities of pipe and steel. Gone now, swept away. For reasons long forgotten, two mighty warrior tribes went to war and touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing. They built a house of straw. The thundering machines sputtered and stopped. Their leaders talked and talked and talked. But nothing could stem the avalanche."

      And for the record I agree with the OP. It's certainly possible to build a zero-footprint economy, but it won't happen until the cost of doing otherwise exceeds our means. There is no 'oh nos we're out of resource X'!, they just become rarer and more expensive. When oil gets expensive enough we won't be driving huge tankers around the world to deliver iPods and cut rate electronics because it won't make any financial sense. At the point that resource X becomes terribly expensive, it would be nice if we had some of our own.

      What a ridiculously short-sighted point of view. THEIR resources will run out eventually, and then we'll start using OUR resources, which will run out as well. Then what? Mad Max time?

    109. Re:Supply and demand? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Yes, heaven forbid we should ever obstruct progress..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    110. Re:Supply and demand? by hey! · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, more specifically we're talking the Interstate Commerce Clause. If states can externalize the cost of environmental destruction and reap all the tax revenue benefits, that's *precisely* the kind of thing the clause was intended to address.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    111. Re:Supply and demand? by GaryPatterson · · Score: 2, Informative

      I admire the intent of your post, but the US is so utterly in bed with China that your nation will never put up bans or tariffs.

      You'll accept most of their conditions regardless of political posturing - the voters in the US will demand the politicians kowtow if it means higher prices otherwise.

      As for international courts... are you guys ever going to join the International Criminal Court? It's hard to take your presence in the other courts seriously when you pick and choose which ones have jurisdiction over you. It's a bit off-topic (and possibly trolly) but when you bring up international courts, remember that the US isn't looking particularly good.

    112. Re:Supply and demand? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      ...so instead we use it as a guide for governance.

      So the speed limits are just a suggestion then? Gliding through the stop is ok? Your "guide" there is what is eating away at the bill of rights right now. See what's happened to the the 1st and 4th amendments over the last forty years. People haven't changed much in 10,000 years, much less in a mere 220. Doing things faster doesn't justify cutting corners.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    113. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Developed countries have very strict safety controls, and going off the statistics from GP, I'd hazard that statistically you are safer working in a mine than driving to the mine. It will (sooner or later) make more sense to fire the mine workers and have everything remotely controlled from a center in China/India anyway. It would be easier to focus on robots than underground bunkers. A bunker isn't even going to help in many common causes of death in a mine site, eg, a rock from the roof falling on you, a gas outburst, or underground collision of vehicles. It is only useful in what seems to be specialized circumstances - the roof between you and the exit collapses and the mine can't find a way to dig a food/air hole to the pocket of air holding the miners. If you feel this does need to be protected against, argue for prevention and higher standards on roof support.

    114. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, for what it's worth, do you really think that "greens" are part of a single organized group with a single platform of goals and ideals? Have you ever bothered to consider that "greens" constitute a large number of people with diverse concerns?

      Well assuming a large homogeneous group seems to work so gosh-darned well when bashing religion, or the Republicans, or the Tea Party supporters that it ought to work equally as well for the Greens.

      I firmly believe that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    115. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm all for an Environmental Impact Tax on U.S. imports produced by means that don't meet our EPA and OSHA standards. If you let us inspect your overseas production and pass our inspection, then no tariff. Otherwise an inspection fail or automatic fail from not allowing our inspectors - means you get the tariff levied against your goods. It seems fair enough, and means you can't just externalize certain production costs by simply offshoring. It seems like it would be good for the environment, and productivity and wages would become the deciding factors in locating rather than where you can operate the dirtiest and unsafest manner while getting away with it.

      Unfortunately, our gov't is WTOwned for the most part, so I don't see anything like that happening anytime soon.

    116. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dramatic undervaluation of the renminbi, the Chinese currency, probably contributes much more to China's cost advantage.

    117. Re:Supply and demand? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      You do realize that raising the prices of goods hurts everybody, right? Tariffs don't just magically punish producers in China (assuming that is the target); the higher costs will be passed along to everyone. The only ones that will benefit are the special interest groups that are having trouble competing. If you are targeting the other government with the tariffs, good luck with that. It's been tried all throughout history and has failed numerous times. Castro is still in power, the DPRK still exists, the Mullahs never lost power in Iran, Napoleon didn't defeat Britain with his attempts at blocking trade, China didn't make the US stop selling weapons to Taiwan with the threat of tariffs, etc. etc.

      --
      SSC
    118. Re:Supply and demand? by timmarhy · · Score: 0, Troll
      who's one of the biggest producers of solar panels in the world? british petroleum.

      petrodollars indeed.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    119. Re:Supply and demand? by unknownroad · · Score: 1

      It's too old a civ. With entrenched culture like that (the Kong Miao, the forbidden city, the wall, etc.) the artist will hardly make a dent. Besides, I'm pretty sure that the "revolution mod" option is turned on for this game. Think of the revolts! For now, demand the resources as tribute an risk the "-1 you made an arrogant demand".

    120. Re:Supply and demand? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      There's "rare and valuable" and then there's "rare and valuable". We're talking about stuff like neodymium and gadolinium, not iridium and tellurium.

      > The plant should still make a huge profit, unless I am misunderstanding basic economics.

      You're thinking about the mining company's perspective.

      But there's another perspective to consider. As far as the people who own the relevant mineral rights are concerned, they can sell now while China's still producing a lot of the stuff and the prices are relatively tame, or they can hold out and hope China restricts the supply or runs low on ore, in which case they'd be sitting on a rather larger fortune.

      It's not like the stuff's going to become less valuable sitting in the ground.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    121. Re:Supply and demand? by rubycodez · · Score: 2, Funny

      you can sit and do contemplation until the end of time. We needed solutions yesterday. And quite frankly it doesn't matter if we screw up the ecosystem of the Sahara dessert or Bonneville salt flats or some other arid wasteland.

    122. Re:Supply and demand? by Ramze · · Score: 1

      You do realize that trade agreements, tariffs, bans, etc. are all bargaining chips in diplomacy & that when it comes to bargaining w/ China, we have to use these tools very delicately, right? Banning trade with China makes about as much sense as shooting your conjoined twin through the heart you both share. One ban in one area on one thing leads to retribution in another area and possibly escalation & so on. Trade barriers almost always lead to higher prices on goods, so there's another side-effect as well.

      China has 1.3 billion people and zero care for the environment. That is not going to change anytime soon. They did a decent job cleaning up for the Olympics, but that was only temporary & for show for visiting countries (& to make the air clean enough for athletes).

      Our options are limited & our bargaining power to force change in China is limited, so get used to the status quo or come up with a viable alternative. Do you know WHY we choose to buy our goods from China? It's because they have low wages, no benefits, and no environmental policies, so companies can afford to set prices low. It's cheaper to ship raw materials to the other side of the planet to be processed & then shipped BACK than to have them processed here in the US with US labor. I kid you not. We send wheat & flour to China to be processed into noodles & shipped back.

      Why choose environmental policy as a stance for trade barriers? Why not human rights or worker conditions or even minimum wages? If you're going to get upset over subsidies, we subsidize food which we export & we and other countries subsidize banks, auto-manufacturers, etc. etc. It's much more blatant than lax environmental laws, too.

      Why don't we just ban all trade w/ everyone but democratic 1st world countries with high environmental and working standards? -- Because the cost increase on goods will be astronomical, that's why!

      If you're going to be all high minded and idealistic about our trading policies & threaten sanctions on our biggest trading partner and investor, you'd best be ready to back it up & have a backup plan for the consequences...

    123. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're terribly wrong about US being in bed with China. It kick-started a covert propaganda campaign in 2004 which has been continuing even today.

    124. Re:Supply and demand? by jvin248 · · Score: 1

      Some of these processes are difficult to sell to a concerned public ... vast leaching fields - piles of dirt with traces of what you want in them, and then lawn sprinklers to spread sulfuric acid all over the pile and let it drain and wash out the desired minerals. Acres. Hazardous chemicals. Misting lawn sprinklers. Yum... fun stuff.

    125. Re:Supply and demand? by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      I agree you can't bunch everyone with environmental concerns into one uniform, crazy group, but there is an element of truth in how environmental concerns seem to hold up any movement at all, in any direction.
      Whether it's nuclear, solar, biofuels, gas, wind, anything, environmental concerns come up and while people are "evaluating the solution" the solution doesn't get implemented and all of a sudden you're facing energy shortages (as Britain is).

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    126. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see you have never dealt with OSHA.

    127. Re:Supply and demand? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      Although lots of clauses in the Constitution have been abused, establishing clean air and water are textbook examples of measures taken "to promote the general welfare". There is no amendment needed.

      "promote the general welfare" is not a clause enumerating a power of the federal government, dumbass. It's a phrase out of the preamble. The preamble grants nothing. It's a general outline of why the constitution was written.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    128. Re:Supply and demand? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yup, this is why I scratch my head when I see so much EU-vs-US posturing.

      In many of these issues the EU and the US are arguing over whether some environmental standard should be set at 2057 or 2063, when the standard in many places their citizens purchase goods from is 2.

      The US and the EU have far more in common than they have at odds when it comes to worker safety and environmental controls. They should really join forces in setting trade barriers against countries that are vastly more lax. I have nothing against outsourcing, but not as a means to avoid reasonable environmental and safety controls.

      Countries that allow free trade of goods manufactured in an unsafe manner are just cutting their own throats.

    129. Re:Supply and demand? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There was an advertisement in Scientific American that ran for a few years with the line "Rare Earths? We can get them by the Ton".
      The rarity and demand is not always enough to provide large profits. Apparently one good source is coal fired power station ash heaps or ash dams where it's as easy to mine as sand. However seperation is not as cheap as we'd think.

    130. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are just green on the outside. Inside they are red. Hence the name - watermelon.

    131. Re:Supply and demand? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      From today's International Longwall News listing stories from the last week:
      "China coal mine fire kills 25"
      Next week or soon after there will be another fatal accident to report. There's no point being smug about technology or making some stupid assumption about being the master race, the Chinese are now operating a lot of mines the same way a US mine would be operated and are closing a lot of dangerous operations. The big difference now is that they have a lot more mines and a lot more miners.

    132. Re:Supply and demand? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      As to OSHA, that protects YOU. Did you know that more people die in Chinese mines than all the other mines in the world?

      Twenty five in a coal mine fire in central Henan province last week. We now get those numbers because there are serious inquiries into mine accidents now. China is currently going through an effort to improve mine safety and things similar to those EPA regs, but they have a lot to clean up.

    133. Re:Supply and demand? by Alcoholist · · Score: 1

      If you are thinking about China, good luck with that. I'll bet three-quarters of the stuff you own was made there. Pretty well every part of the computer anyone is reading this on was made there. The clock radio that wakes you up in the morning, the iron that gets the wrinkles out of your clothes.... your toaster, kettle, cellphone, TV, iPod, the fork you eat your food with, the clothes on your back... Until something changes, we have no choice but to play ball. In fact, if you pick up a ball you find out and around your house, I'll bet it was made in China.

      --
      Bibo Ergo Sum.
    134. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can sit and do contemplation until the end of time. We needed solutions yesterday. And quite frankly it doesn't matter if we screw up the ecosystem of the Sahara dessert or Bonneville salt flats or some other arid wasteland.

      I'm hungry.

    135. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All we need to do is make a small city near the resources in China and send a 'Great Artist' to create a 'Great Work'. Once the borders expand we can mine the stuff... easy...

      Doesn't work in the later versions of Civ IV.

      (I don't remember the exact details of what got changed in the BtS patch that fixed that issue, but culture bombs are pretty much dead.)

    136. Re:Supply and demand? by bhiestand · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      No. Long, delaying impact studies are only necessary when you're doing something the conservatives oppose... like allowing gays to serve openly in the military.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    137. Re:Supply and demand? by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Why pay Americans to sort in the US when you can have it done in a location eg latin/south America, Asia, Africa, Australia ect at lower rates?

      ... because these are rare earths we're talking about. You might need to process thousands of tons of raw materials (or more) to get a pound of a particular rare earth.

      Find a way to ship millions of tons of raw materials to Indonesia for processing and I'm sure you'll be able to make a fortune outsourcing it.

      It's obvious from your use of the term "sort" that you know absolutely nothing about this process. It's not labor intensive; it's energy, time, space, equipment, etc. intensive. It's not like some guy is standing at a conveyor belt with tweezers picking the rare earth metals ouf of dirt that's moving by.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    138. Re:Supply and demand? by drkim · · Score: 1

      ...now, now, now... let's be fair to Rep. Senator John Warner.

      He wasn't trying to stop wind farms from being in his view, he was trying to stop wind farms from being in his friends view.

    139. Re:Supply and demand? by drkim · · Score: 1

      That's actually pretty safe. By comparison: 34 people were killed in 2009 in the US by being hit by lightning.

    140. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a ridiculously short-sighted point of view. THEIR resources will run out eventually, and then we'll start using OUR resources,

      Up to that point, you have it all figured out. Once we exhaust everyone ELSE's resources then we'll just use our position to get what we want out of everybody else. And when they are exhausted totally? We won't care, we'll already have leveraged our position in anticipation of such a time, and just dump our crap on anybody we don't like at the moment.

      Wait, are you talking about environmental resources, or military resources? Silly me, they're the same thing in the end...

    141. Re:Supply and demand? by English+French+Man · · Score: 1

      The point is, we know that burning carbon is dangerous as it emits carbon dioxyde, and that every solution would be better than that. Why don't we build wind turbines now and think later of the implications on environment (which would be less dangerous, we already know that)

      --
      If I'm wrong, please correct me ; learning is better than being right.
    142. Re:Supply and demand? by SimonGhent · · Score: 1

      a healthcare proposal to regulate the health insurance into oblivion

      So much worse than treating the sick, regardless of wealth.

      Excuse me if I don't shed a tear.

      --
      simon
    143. Re:Supply and demand? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      If you're the USA or Israel you can dismiss those letters, no problem. If you're another country, you may find yourself stuck with sanctions and an invasion of blue helmets, specially if the USA or Israel don't like you very much.

      Ah, I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning...

    144. Re:Supply and demand? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      If you are sick, and you go to a hospital emergency room, you are cared for.

      If you can't pay, you still get cared for.

      It's the law ALREADY. And even if it were not, most hospitals would still care for you.

      And we ALREADY pay for this. And it is paid for by both government programs and increased costs to other payers.

      No one who needs care is turned away unless the hospital chooses to risk losing non-profit status, or a for-profit hospital chooses to risk similar sanctions.

      Your assertion, veiled as it was, is false.

      And we could do better, perhaps, but the claime that we do nothing is false.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    145. Re:Supply and demand? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Do something useful? Okay.

      I am gathering support for another amendment to the Constitution. It will give the Supreme Court power to declare various laws constitutional or unconstitutional, but it will ALSO give the same power to the State Legislatures. When one-half of the States have declared a U.S. law unconstitutional, it will be nullified. (And then Congress may choose to rewrite the law and pass it again, as per usual procedure, or just let it die.)

      I'd like to claim credit for the idea, but it actually goes back to Jefferson and his early 1800s-era Democrats.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    146. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, so now animosity between countries reaches an all-time high. The world becomes filled with nationalistic greed and the world becomes clenched in an economic war. Progress suffers because of the clinch on certain geographically limited resources, PEOPLE suffer for the same reason, and group identities inhibit peace and prosperity.

      What's the only good thing about this sort of situation? Well, human suffering does seem to improve creativity. Oh, and if you're a self-serving ass and your country is in a good position (like any developed country in today's world), then you get to remain on top and extort the rest of the human population for an increase in your quality of life.

    147. Re:Supply and demand? by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      It's got to be that the processing plants are in china, not that the chinese have all the rare earths deposits since BIC isn't reporting a shortage of mischmetal lighter flints ( made of mixed rare earths ). 6.843392 zillion of these are thrown away each day which has got to add up. ( although isn't Bic a French company? Hmm.. )

      --
      ...
    148. Re:Supply and demand? by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      That's not what happens. OUR resources run out and then we try to buy THEIR resources which works for a time until we're broke.

      --
      ...
    149. Re:Supply and demand? by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      Demand for separated rare earths far outstrips supply. For instance the natural mix of U238/U235 is much less valuable than that same quantity of Uranium separated into piles of pure U238 and pure U235. ( Yes I know Uranium is not a rare earth. Lighter flints however are rare earths ( all mixed together and probably difficult/environmentally damaging to separate )

      --
      ...
    150. Re:Supply and demand? by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

      What a ridiculously short-sighted point of view. THEIR resources will run out eventually, and then we'll start using OUR resources, which will run out as well. Then what? Mad Max time?

      Then we'll go to Alpha Centauri. What, didn't you see the movie?

    151. Re:Supply and demand? by Dishevel · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I think I just might be completely done ever being fair to a politician ever again. Fuck every single one of them. And fuck political science as a whole.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    152. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, our competitors will end up mining all of their resources to exhaustion and be without. We then have a supply, inside our borders (hopefully CONUS), that we can tap.

      Partners are only partners until the economics change.

    153. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      You mean those rare earth magnet ads? I don't think they could literally get rare earth elements by the ton, it was magnets made from rare earths.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    154. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      We've got China over a barrel, man. They own us. What happens to them if we default? Or if we let inflation erase our debt? We're also their largest market. China isn't in as lordly a position over us as it might seem at first glance.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    155. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Good point. Also, the longer we let it sit in the ground, the better and cheaper the extraction and purification technology becomes.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    156. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      I was asking for a citation proving that America can no longer create mining and manufacturing plants because of environmental regulations. What am I supposed to be providing citations for?

      There do not need to be 'consequences' to my lifestyle. I live pretty simply and am not materialistic. Also, you seem to be under the impression that I want China polluted. I don't. I don't want anyplace polluted, because pollution is an externality. Someone else profits, I pay.

      I may be wealthy in world-wide terms, but I am certainly not owning class by anyone's standards. I don't have enough money to control other people's lives.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    157. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      In this case, the tarrifs exist to reflect the actual cost, including externalities, of the product. The money collected could go to help offset these costs. It isn't blocking trade, it is punishing those who take unfair advantage of others.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    158. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, our gov't is WTOwned for the most part, so I don't see anything like that happening anytime soon.

      Neither do I.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    159. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      SO, you think that people should be able to profit from something where someone else must pay part of the cost? Perhaps you'd like to be forced to pay for, say, all the axles on someone else's car? No? Then why do you want to force other people to pay for the cost of pollution?

      People should take personal responsibility for their actions. If I hurt something or someone, I should have to pay for it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    160. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Yes, I can have it both ways. I want us to start mining and refining rare earths here in America, in environmentally sound ways. Less pollution for everyone, and more rare earths.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    161. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Yes, then what? Do they invade us to get the money back? Maybe we just diddle with interest rates to create hyperinflation and POOF! the debt disappears. We're their major market, what happens to them if we have to stop buying?

      Think it through. Who has more power, the guy who just got a billion dollar loan from someone with no ability to enforce repayment, or the guy who just handed out a loan he has no way of getting back?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    162. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      Good point. Also, I realize, mining and refining techniques will likely become more efficient and less expensive in the meantime, meaning if we wait, we will extract more, for less money, and sell it for more.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    163. Re:Supply and demand? by sjames · · Score: 1

      However, if individual Chinese companies are sued and lose, any cash coming from the U.S. to them is subject to being seized to pay the judgment. The only way they could avoid it is to cease doing business with anyone in the U.S.

    164. Re:Supply and demand? by Taevin · · Score: 1

      You're rather missing the point. Yes, an emergency room will treat you to the point of stabilization, regardless of your ability to pay. That's only one part of restoring an individual to health, though. If I'm brought to the ER after being shot in the leg, they'll make sure I don't bleed to death and stitch me up even without insurance. I'll still get the bill, though.

      Beyond that, are they going to pay for pain medication? Food while I can't work my manual-labor job? Physical therapy? Of course not, but hey we get to show how we save lives even without payment! Who cares if they go on to live lives of permanent pain, disability, bankruptcy, and/or homelessness. They're just poor people, after all.

    165. Re:Supply and demand? by spun · · Score: 1

      I would rather prevent you from damaging my property in the first place, than let you damage it (and my health) and collect restitution.

      If the environment in question is not owned by an individual, it is available to everyone, so everyone loses when it is damaged. The environmental costs are not the only externalities in play here. Health costs are another.

      I would rather not live in a system that lets you harm me, then forces me to put up my own money on the gamble that I can prove that you harmed me. If you have more money for lawyers than I do, you can harm me with impunity. Is that fair or just?

      Luckily for me, I live in a democracy where I can work together with others to force people to act responsibly, if the majority agrees. Society is simply contracts and compromises. Rights always come with responsibilities. Nobody can have the freedom to do whatever the hell they please, and still live in society. We all have to give up some of our freedoms (like the freedom to punch people in the nuts) in order to secure freedoms we value more (like freedom from being punched in the nuts.)

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    166. Re:Supply and demand? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Even people with 'insurance' get substandard care. Are we going to have the Government legislate 'good' care?

      The model would be Medicare. I'll pass on that. Ask my mother, and remember - she's in pretty good health.

      The Federal government won't do better.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    167. Re:Supply and demand? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      America is the worst offender at not playing ball on the international markets. America basically ignores all rulings not in its favor.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    168. Re:Supply and demand? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      So, if the government has to pay for your entire rehabilitation when you get shot in the leg, should the government be allowed to determine where you are allowed to walk? You are asking the government to be responsible without having the power to control? Responsibility without authority. That is a ridiculous situation in ANY system.

      If the government has responsibility they must have authority to regulate. Would you agree that a 9pm curfew on everyone would be an agreeable measure?

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    169. Re:Supply and demand? by Taevin · · Score: 1
      Here's what a really struggle with regarding the whole public vs. private health insurance debate. Every argument I see seems to apply to both the "government" or the private company. For example, taking your paragraph:

      So, if the [government/health insurance company] has to pay for your entire rehabilitation when you get shot in the leg, should the [government/health insurance company] be allowed to determine where you are allowed to walk? You are asking the [government/health insurance company] to be responsible without having the power to control?

      Why, if we substitute "government" in the brackets, must draconian laws accompany it? Even if we tone down the end-of-the-world rhetoric and instead talk about "regulation," why is it so horrible? Just because it's "the government" doing it? The people opposing public healthcare seem to have no problem with this "regulation" when it's a private company doing it. Why the double standard?

      Humorously, I find your signature to be very apropos:

      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba

    170. Re:Supply and demand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're "one-half of the States" standard does not fly for me. If you changed it to "States comprising one half of the population of the United States" I could live with it. Otherwise North Dakota has as much power as Florida.

    171. Re:Supply and demand? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Why, if we substitute "government" in the brackets, must draconian laws accompany it? Even if we tone down the end-of-the-world rhetoric and instead talk about "regulation," why is it so horrible? Just because it's "the government" doing it? The people opposing public healthcare seem to have no problem with this "regulation" when it's a private company doing it. Why the double standard?

      Because, the government gets to send big men to your house with big guns. I can tell an insurance company where to put their policy.

      I'm building an experimental airplane with a non-traditional engine. Most insurance companies won't touch it. Some would, if I would switch ot a more traditional engine. One will cover me, at extremely high rates.

      This is the way insurance works. Someone very good at math works up and actuarial table and says there is a X% chance that you will cost us $Y. We'll cover that liability for $Z/(time period).

      With the government, it is "You will use bolt A source from supplier Y in the engine we prescribe." (Which is why GA aviation is stuck in 1950.) This is not posturing. It is reality. Ask any private pilot that has made a minor change to enhance their own safety.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  2. What Problem? by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Buy cheap stuff from abroad while available and cheap. Mine locally if overseas supplies are restricted or prices get too high.

    1. Re:What Problem? by Jeff-reyy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thanks for the advice, Sam Walton.

    2. Re:What Problem? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only it isn't cheap, these are some of the most expensive minerals on the planet. Given that demand outstrips supply right now, local owners could be making money off of this. And given that it takes eight years to get a plant going, wouldn't it be prudent to start now, rather than waiting for the Chinese to take all their balls and go home? Oh, but I guess I am asking the Free Market to actually think ahead instead of focusing on next quarter's immediate profits, silly me.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:What Problem? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      While that is generally a good strategy(and having China, among others, willing to screw its workers and poison the hell out of its environment in exchange for paper IOUs is pretty handy), it works slightly less well if startup times are high and forecasts of future conditions are poor or unavailable.

    4. Re:What Problem? by Jeng · · Score: 1

      The problem is the lack of processing in this country.

      Kinda like how the Middle-East was buying petroleum products from the US because we had the refineries. We could mine the hell out of the minerals, but if we can't process it someone else will be getting the profit.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    5. Re:What Problem? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Didn't the article say a new plant has about a 10 year ramp-up time?

    6. Re:What Problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.

      For starters, it suggests they can make a lot more money in the future than they even can now. Secondly, no one really uses those materials locally. Practically all of the manufacturing with those materials happens outside of the US, so while those companies would love to get the materials from another source, they also want to get them cheaply, and the Chinese will almost certainly be able to beat the local mines on price.

      Now, when some factories start getting tired of having all of their technology stolen, then cloned and owned, and they come back to the US, then I can see a really good reason to start mining, once the Chinese pipelines start to fall off. This will hopefully serve to choke off China, after they have recently started choking the rest of the world off from these materials.

    7. Re:What Problem? by fbartho · · Score: 1

      Dude, this is a classic supply demand problem. If they wait while china uses theirs up, they'll have cornered the market on the supply.

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    8. Re:What Problem? by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are misunderstanding the problem. The mining companies would *love* to develop the rich mineral deposits in the western US -- all mining is a long-term investment -- but it is politically impractical. Not only are there many years of regulatory overhead before you can even get permission to start (archaeological clearances, environmental impact studies, etc), you also find yourself plagued by routine lawsuits by environmental activist organizations. In short, you can waste decades trying to develop a new mineral deposit with nothing to show for it but a lot of well-paid lawyers. There are difficult regulatory problems even exploiting existing rare earth mines.

      It is cheaper to explore and develop countries like Australia and Chile, both of which have mineral deposits similar to the western US, than it is to develop existing US resources that we already know exist. This is not the fault of the mining companies. Indeed, the free market is working precisely as it should when one supply is priced far beyond what is reasonable due to political intervention.

    9. Re:What Problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't the article say a new plant has about a 10 year ramp-up time?

      The article also mentioned that could be a lot faster with a government handout. As others have pointed out. This is a thinly veiled attempt to get governmental assistance.

    10. Re:What Problem? by spun · · Score: 0, Troll

      Indeed, the free market is failing like it always does by not taking the cost of externalities into account. Who will pay for the cost of pollution if not the polluter? Do you believe free market ideology trumps personal responsibility?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:What Problem? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually Sam Walton used to take pride in selling stuff made in the USA. Blame the current folks running Walmart and not the founder.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    12. Re:What Problem? by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      Only it isn't cheap, these are some of the most expensive minerals on the planet.

      Not cheap, but not among the most expensive. Seems to run from about $75 to $500 per kg of the refined metal, depending on exactly which rare earth you want.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    13. Re:What Problem? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he took pride in the "Made in the USA" label right up until he saw how much money he and his crotchfruit could make off buying cheaply imported goods. Even in the 80s, as much as 85% of the goods sold in Walmart were made outside the US... despite the remarkable marketing/PR campaign which you appear to have fallen for hook, line, and sinker :)

      Sam Walton was great at *pretending* to take pride in "Made in the USA"... when in actuality, he made tons of cash off sourcing cheaply overseas.

      That said, the small amount that was made in the USA is perhaps more than what a lot of his competitors in the 80s were selling.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    14. Re:What Problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy cheap stuff from abroad while available and cheap. Mine locally after making overseas supplies restricted and prices too high.

      there. fixed that for you.

    15. Re:What Problem? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing is... at some point, these sources in the US will be much more valuable. And they'll still be available.
      When we really need them, we'll have them.

      If oil went to $300 a barrel - this fall - we would start to drill for oil in all these sensitive areas and even bypass our procedures.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  3. Infrastructure and funding opportunity by soup_laser · · Score: 1

    With such a high start up cost I'm guessing we would only be building one? Well, that makes for a good opportunity to pick a good location safe from natural disasters. Since we'd build it to protect national interests perhaps there would be funding from the defense side of the budget? It also seems to present a great reason to strengthen the railroad infrastructure for delivering ore from mining locations to the new plant. A strong rail system would be good for other reasons too and would probably sell well with the current administration.

    1. Re:Infrastructure and funding opportunity by crashumbc · · Score: 1

      Things like this are "almost" always built on site. I have a suspicion that the mine would be of the "strip mine" variety. Which would include insane amounts of raw materials being processed.

       

  4. Re:Your official guide to the Jigaboo presidency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YHBT. HAND.

  5. I knew I was saving them for a reason... by semi-old-geek · · Score: 0

    I wonder does this make all those old pc's I havn't fixed yet. No I mean, circuit boards I have been saving worth more for salvage?

  6. No one's thinking long term anymore by jimbobborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For the same reason they aren't drilling for oil off the coasts. You know, if you don't start now, it's going to take even LONGER before production is spun up. And by then, we'll have yet another dumb ass in office and we can't mine this stuff out for whatever reason (NIMBY, clean air, whatever). Even if the company stockpiles it, the material is still an asset and can be used when the Chinese decide to close their borders because of another cultural revolution.

    1. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 4, Informative

      The real reason we are not drilling offshore, is that it will not reduce gas prices more than 2 cents and will not make the US energy independant. There have been extensive studies on this and the oil is not just there. The EIA estimated that offshore drilling would reduce US gas prices by 2 cents. The areas offshore entire states contain enough oil to supply the US for only a few months. We could save more energy if people installed some more insulation in their homes and inflated their tires than we would ever get from offshore oil drilling. The idea that we can solve our problems with domestic drilling is a lie told by the public relations of the Oil Industry and Republican puppets.

      The second point is it cannot be done safely. That is a fact. Last year there was a massive oil spill off of Australia using the same "Clean safe" technology that the oil companies wanted to use offshore in the US. The fact is, it would take just one spill to destroy miles of beaches and pollute and contaminate the very seafood we eat. A study of the environment around oil rigs found fish around there with vastly higher levels of heavy metals and the seafloor covered with heavy metals and toxic carcinogens including arsenic. Unfortunately there are some who seem to think it is acceptable to pollute our environment with toxic waste that will kill us in order for oil companies to make some more profit.

      Here again we see the oil company propoganda at work. In the real world unexpected things happen, pipes break. An oil rig can have a drill shaft miles deep, a leak anywhere in that can pollute and contaminate ground water, cause long running leaks into the ocean which can last for months and destroy hundreds of miles of ocean environment and beaches.

      All of this means offshore drilling simply isnt worth the risk. Just one spill and we have ruined the environment, and for nothing at all, it simply will not solve energy problems.

    2. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      That's hilarious that you think drilling our own oil is a long term solution.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    3. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why when they announced they would be halting future drilling projects in the gulf the price for oil went up $10+ a barrel last year Worldwide no less, don’t quit you day job.

    4. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Your argument makes no sense even on its face.
      "...the oil is not just there. "
      "The idea that we can solve our problems with domestic drilling is a lie told by the public relations of the Oil Industry and Republican puppets."

      If there's no oil, then no company will go drill there. Oh, and why is China buying up all the rights to drill off Cuba?

    5. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the idiot who thinks speculation in the markets is based on rationality.

    6. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      What i said was there is not an amount of oil there that would make a significant difference in US energy supply enough to have real value in energy independance or prices. The fact is, the amount there is so small it is marginal and insignificant compared to our energy consumption. So the fact is there is no benefit of drilling and the environmental problems alone are enough reason to not do it. This includes threats to wildlife, etc. Spills are inevitable, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

      Of course the oil companies can make some profit from drilling there, that does not mean that the mount extracted will make any real difference in US energy supply, because we use so much of it, . They have only been interesting recently in some of the harder to get because rising oil prices, its just so expensive to drill there and there is so little there, its really not as profitable as a land well.

      Ocean drilling tends to be an orders magnitude more dangerous from spilling which means is the worst place to do it, thats why it should not be allowed.

    7. Re:No one's thinking long term anymore by sdguero · · Score: 1

      Hippy.

  7. shortage?? by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    'There is already a shortage, because there are companies that already can't get enough material,' said Jim Hedrick

    May be, it's not just a shortage, but a cost of doing business. The real question is: if those companies were willing to pay ten times the amount for those rare earth minerals, would they be able to get them? Probably, I think. Personally, I think this is just another industry that's trying to get the government to subsidize 90% of its infrastructure costs.

    1. Re:shortage?? by crashumbc · · Score: 1

      Also the fact that EVERY company that uses these items is looking for ways to cut down or even eliminate their use.

      What happens if you spend 1 billion building the plant and the prices drop?

    2. Re:shortage?? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It used to be that government welfare was only for poor people. Now welfare is only for rich people.

    3. Re:shortage?? by wintercolby · · Score: 2, Informative

      From Great Western Minerals website it appears that supply and demand are fairly close, and that China is still the largest consumer as well as producer of Rare Earths. In fact it looks like MolyCorp has been ramping up production of Rare Earths for three years. They had been producing and processing Rare Earths up to 1998, but they stopped because they were no longer able to use "Off Site evaporation facilities."

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
  8. More than a short term supply problem by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One thing that does not seem to be talked about much is that all rare earth metals will be completely depleted, in any practically extractable reserves, within the next 50-100 years. The response to the shortage of rare earth metals seen here is similar to a fishing fleet who is pushing the fish population to total extinction through overfishing, doubling the number of fishing boats in order to make up production decline... it only speeds up the extinction process, and that repeatedly we see fishing industries opposing any efforts to allow fish populations to rebound, thus dooming destruction of the very fish population being fished, forever. This is short sighted thinking, it is far easier to carry on business as usual for fisherman even though the species is going extinct, in the short term, in the long term that behaviour leads to a much worse outcome.

    A difference with these metals is they cannot regenerate. Once they are gone, thats it. Still today metals are being used like its an endless supply, and people throw away everything from electronics to batteries which contian precious metals. In the process, we are throwing away our future. Knowing this one realises that with all environmental and resource issues, recycling is not a joke, and the people who have been pushing for it desperately are not "environmental nutjobs", they understand what is really going on and the true ramifications. I find this is true with nearly all environmental issues which are often ignored by the vested interests from pollution which threatens to severely damage our health adn well being to resource depletion.

    The concerns over metal are also existing for oil as well, which is now predicted to peak as soon as 2014, that is a question of when, not if.

    1. Re:More than a short term supply problem by maxume · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Landfill: A future mine.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:More than a short term supply problem by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      On the plus side, when stuff gets thrown away it has a tendency to end up in landfills. Once things get unpleasant enough, the landfills will be the most economically viable deposits(of all sorts of useful materials) around.

      For recyclable materials(like most metals), the dangers to long-term supply are those activities which dilute the material in question since, generally speaking, the lower the concentration, the more expensive and destructive the extraction. Incineration is likely bad news. Trying to recover traces of indium or whatever that have been oxidized and spread over thousands of square miles will only really be economic in some utopian post-singularity scenario. By contrast, sending robots, or dudes in hazmat suits, or expendable children(depending on how unpleasant things have gotten at the time) to pick through large piles of garbage that have been buried and more or less just sitting there, much of it mechanically sortable, is not much more difficult than mining.

    3. Re:More than a short term supply problem by vlm · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Once they are gone, thats it.

      Where do they go? The landfill? In which case the landfill becomes a "high yield rare earth mine"

      Or the sea.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:More than a short term supply problem by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      ...with these metals is they cannot regenerate. Once they are gone, thats it.

      Maybe commercial asteroid mining will finally become a reality.
         

    5. Re:More than a short term supply problem by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the next 50-100 years?

      http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/rare_earths/mcs-2010-raree.pdf
      Consumption in the US
      7,410

      Reserves in the US
      13,000,000

      1754 years worth

      Chinese mining
      120,000

      Chinese reserves
      36,000,000

      300 years worth.

    6. Re:More than a short term supply problem by sackvillian · · Score: 1

      This hardly needs saying, but that's more or less like arguing that we don't need to worry about burning through our fossil fuel supplies because we can synthesize those fuels again from waste products, or other resources. After all, most of the products of combustion won't be leaving our atmosphere anytime soon.

      This thinking is only valid if we have a lot of available energy, and in this case, technology for more efficient recycling. Yes, it's easier to recycle small solids that are largely sitting among other solids than it is to purify condensed matter and generate specific hydrocarbons, but this in no way suggests that we shouldn't be thinking about this now. It's just another way we can justify procrastinating and treating the earth as infinite.

      --
      Hey mate, spare a sig?
    7. Re:More than a short term supply problem by ThousandStars · · Score: 1
      One thing that does not seem to be talked about much is that all rare earth metals will be completely depleted, in any practically extractable reserves, within the next 50-100 years.

      The problem with these kinds of projections is that they almost invariably forget to take technological change into account; Malthus predicted that humanity would starve to death because of food shortages in the late 18th Century, whale oil was unsustainable until the discovery of underground oil, and horse shit threatened the viability of cities until the development of the automobile (which then threatened cities through emissions), and various people have predicted peak oil at various times going back to the early 20th Century.

      Now, we will eventually face peak oil, but that date keeps getting pushed further back due to advances in extraction technology. But by then hybrid/electric cars or other, unforeseen technology may have rendered the point moot. Rare earth metals might be completely depleted in 50 - 100 years, assuming that the ability to find and recover such metals doesn't improve and that recycling technology doesn't make original harvesting moot (imagine if someday all the technological garbage we've shipped to China and Africa makes those countries rich through the trace metals that become recoverable).

      This isn't to argue that we should wantonly strip mine every metal deposit conceivable, or that just because false alarms sounded in the past doesn't mean true alarms won't sound in the future. But the fairly long history of worries about resource depletion, followed by the obviation of that resource or by the discovery of new deposits, means that I don't think most of us should be wildly worried about the possibility that rare earth metals will disappear in 50 years.

    8. Re:More than a short term supply problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See this is also a fallacy. Unlike oil, rare earth metals are in fact elements, and these are chemical processes not nuclear ones so the element remains unchanged. We throw them away, but that's not destroying them. Right now companies can get their supply of these elements by pulling them out of the ground. At some point though the cost/benefit equation will show that recycling old equipment and reclaiming the rare earth elements from them will be profitable once the supply available in the ground is near depletion. I imagine that the there will be a gold rush over landfills with people paying big money for "mineral" rights to mine them.

      As far as US deposits go, I would think that if it's not profitable to mine it now, if the rate of consumption stays steady or increases then eventually mining it will become quite profitable it's just a matter of time. That's basic supply/demand economics. I would also expect that as prices for these elements rise then innovation will occur prompting the creation of technologies that make more efficient use of the resource, or instead use a cheaper substitute.

    9. Re:More than a short term supply problem by jschen · · Score: 1

      The problem with these kinds of projections is that they almost invariably forget to take technological change into account

      This is especially true for the lanthanides (i.e. "rare earth" elements). They are not actually all that rare. Cerium is more abundant than zinc, and even the least abundant lanthanides (with the exception of promethium, which has no stable isotope) are quite plentiful. Their price is high not because of low natural abundance, but because of a low tendency to concentrate into readily exploited ores and difficulty of separation. If we could improve the separation chemistry, then their availability would improve tremendously.

    10. Re:More than a short term supply problem by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      I've been saying this for a long time now.

      The next major "gold rush" will probably be in a hundred years or so, when the concentrations of valuable minerals and oils in landfills is higher than what can be found in nature.

      Even better, I bet a mining company wouldn't have to do as much paperwork to mine a landfill.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    11. Re:More than a short term supply problem by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      Uranium. Thorium. Sunlight. Fusion.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    12. Re:More than a short term supply problem by gordguide · · Score: 1

      There is no problem with the supply, and not much of a problem with known reserves.

      The situation is essentially the same with any operation that requires capital to set up, and mining operations in particular require large capital expenditures and time to plan ... prices must rise before anyone will go looking, they must rise some more before anyone goes digging, and there is always an inevitable lag between "prices rose" and "so let's start digging" to "we have output".

      And, since mining is a fairly extensive operation, there is always worry that increased supply will then depress prices, not to mention economic health which affects demand, and those projected prices constitute the necessary rationale to determine profitability and sustainability of the mine, and thus find capital to move on the whole shebang.

      This is no different than any oil, gas or mineral operation. No shortage = no activity.

    13. Re:More than a short term supply problem by bstender · · Score: 1

      "This isn't to argue that we should wantonly strip mine every metal deposit conceivable, or that just because false alarms sounded in the past doesn't mean true alarms won't sound in the future. But the fairly long history of worries about resource depletion, followed by the obviation of that resource or by the discovery of new deposits, means that I don't think most of us should be wildly worried about the possibility that rare earth metals will disappear in 50 years."

      perhaps the process of worrying spurred adaptations prior to crisis. (In those cases which did resolve successfully. obviously resource depletion/collapse does happen)

      --
      look sig is kool
  9. doesn't seem a like a lot of money by paulcone · · Score: 1

    I have a friend who manages fab production at Intel chip plants in Oregon, New Mexico, and elsewhere. He tells me the cost of a new chip plant is about a billion dollars.

  10. You mean... by tizzo · · Score: 1

    ...like oil?

  11. That would explain the rise in testicular cancer. by Kenja · · Score: 0, Troll

    Them metals is warm.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  12. easy as pie... by ak_hepcat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    See, first we eat all of their pie, cheaply.

    Then, when they're all out of ingredients to make cheap pie, we open up our fridge and start making
    our own pies.

    Then we can eat our pies, and if they want pies then they'll have to pay a lot more for it. Because we've got the only pie in town.

    --
    Support FSF: Stop thinking with your wallet, and think with your imagination. (cc/non-commercial)
    1. Re:easy as pie... by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      So, we drink their milkshake?

    2. Re:easy as pie... by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      And when the pie is all gone?

      We eat cake.

      ~X~

      --
      ~X~
  13. 1872 by istartedi · · Score: 1

    Will the 1872 mining law apply? Let the plundering begin. (sarcasm)

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  14. "Move Over Rover And Let Jim Take Over" by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

    said Jim Hedrick, a former USGS rare earth specialist who recently retired.

    Wink, wink...

    Well, being born in November 1942 would make you 67 years old now, eligible for proper retirement following your "retirement" from the public spotlight in 1970.

    But come on, how about one final blast of "Star Spangled Banner" with your teeth, Jim... or should I say "Jimi"?

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:"Move Over Rover And Let Jim Take Over" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations. This is perhaps the stupidest post I've ever seen here. Wow...
      (not flaming, just marvelling)

  15. Let's channel Frank Spedding by shis-ka-bob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When the Manhattan Project needed rare earths, they turned to Frank Spedding, a chemist at Iowa State. He managed to get the job done with a lot fewer resources that what is being discussed here. I fear that we Americans have become too lazy and in love with a quick return on the buck. Some things are hard work, even if you are really bright. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Spedding. He also created the Ames Laboratory, the one near Offit Air Force Base, not the Ames Research Center near the Navy's Moffitt Field.

    --
    Think global, act loco
    1. Re:Let's channel Frank Spedding by snoop.daub · · Score: 3, Informative

      A bit of a nitpick I guess, but uranium isn't usually considered a rare earth. The transactinides do share some chemistry with them, which is why the Spedding process for uranium purification was used after the war for lanthanides.

      The problem with rare earths is that they are very evenly spread out in the crust, they don't tend to form concentrated ores the way most other metals do. There's actually more lanthanides around than many precious metals, for example, it's a problem of purification.

      I think there's plenty of uranium in North America, especially in Canada.

    2. Re:Let's channel Frank Spedding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If by 'near Offutt AFB' you mean 3 hours away from, then I suppose you are right.

      Ames Laboratory is in Ames, IA at Iowa State University. See http://www.ameslab.gov/ for more info.

    3. Re:Let's channel Frank Spedding by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you have a cite that actually supports your claim? The link you provide describes him a developing a process to refine uranium compounds into purified uranium, not processes to obtain rare earths.
       
      When I follow the links from your linked article it does indeed describe the laboratory he founded as developing processes to process rare earths, but again your claim of using "a lot fewer resources than being discussed here" is not supported.

  16. democracy to more countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does it really matter how short the supply is. The mighty US will bring democracy to couple more countries and build these plants in those countries, expose the people of those counties to any/all toxic waste and just get the processed rare earths.

    1. Re:democracy to more countries by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Does it really matter how short the supply is. The mighty US will bring democracy to couple more countries and build these plants in those countries, expose the people of those counties to any/all toxic waste and just get the processed rare earths.

      It's the non-democracies that are easy to poison because they can be kept in the dark. The local gov't doesn't care if they get a nice kickback.

  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. US mining is politically uneconomical by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 1

    The vast mineral districts in the western US are very expensive and risky to develop even though there are large, high-value mineral deposits available there. While old mining sites are sort of grandfathered in, developing a new mining site is prohibitively expensive for regulatory reasons such that the value of the resource has to be atypically high to offset the regulatory overhead. In short, opening a new mine in the western deserts has become kind of like trying to build a new nuclear power plant. There are so many lawsuits and interminable amounts of politics and paperwork that it has become effectively impossible even if it is theoretically economical.

    Instead of developing US mineral wealth, most mining companies are developing mineral resources in countries with less regulatory overhead and fewer environmental lawsuits. It is not that the mining companies do not want to develop US mineral wealth, it is that the US government has made it all but impossible to do so as a practical matter.

    1. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by spun · · Score: 0, Troll

      Could you back any of that up with some links or citations? Everyone likes to blame our environmental regulations, but I like clean air and a lack of pollution. I also think people should take personal responsibility for their actions and not expect others to clean up their mess. I hear a lot of people who want me to clean up their mess whine an awful lot about how unfair it all is, how China lets them do whatever they want, and how we should all be thankful for the opportunity to clean up their mess, but it all sounds like self serving bullshit to me.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 5, Informative

      I own a mineral deposit in a central Nevada mining district, though not with any intent to exploit it. I am quite familiar with the regulatory details of mining in the US. It is very different than the caricatures spoon-fed to the public by activist organizations.

      Environmental impact studies are fine and necessary. Archaeological impact studies are mostly bullshit; the region is littered from end-to-end with artifacts leftover from the Lake Lahontan civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Lahontan), you can find stuff everywhere if you know what to look for. So everyone just pretends that there are no artifacts.

      There are two big problems that really make it impossible to profitably mine US deposits. First, there is an environmental lawsuit industry that thrives on delaying the opening of mines until the companies run out of money to deal with them. The lawsuits are mostly bullshit about hypothetical habitats for endangered species and the like; they aren't credible, but that isn't the point and some courts are willing to entertain them indefinitely.

      Second, a big problem is that if you pick up a rock, you own it. In the western US mining districts, those rocks are laden with natural concentrations of all sorts of low-value heavy minerals that are magically transformed into "toxic waste" the minute you touch it. This has arguably been the biggest killer of new mining. The obligation to scrub natural mineral formations of elements with no economical value very substantially increases the cost because you end up "mining" metals that have no value. This is particularly problematic for things like rare earth metals -- the mineral complexes are intrinsically "toxic waste" under standard regulatory regimes. It doesn't matter that they are natural, the mining company is obligated to treat nature as a superfund site.

      Regulations regarding arsenic in the water have been similarly exploited by environmental activist groups to shut down mining. In many places in the western US, the background levels of arsenic in the groundwater is naturally several times higher than the EPA limits because of the local mineral formations. The way it works now is that if you do mining near those formations, you become responsible for bringing the natural background levels within EPA guidelines -- a fool's errand. So mining companies avoid areas where the local arsenic levels exceed EPA guidelines, lest they become responsible for cleaning up arsenic they didn't produce.

      Environmental activists have very cleverly created a regulatory framework that holds mining companies responsible for natural mineral distributions even if the mining companies are in no way responsible. This has effectively outlawed heavy metal mining in the western US because the environment is naturally full of heavy minerals.

    3. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by ukemike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That sounds like a round about way of saying that it would be profitable to mine if you were allowed to leave your tailings, and the waste from the refining processes in big piles on the ground.

      --
      -- QED
    4. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by CorporateSuit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That sounds like a round about way of saying that it would be profitable to mine if you were allowed to leave your tailings, and the waste from the refining processes in big piles on the ground.

      One man's trash is another man's treasure. The government has to chase people off with shotguns to keep them away from beryllium mines' tailings. The fact that GP brings up that all this stuff is classified as "Toxic waste" means that it is unprofitable to use the entire buffalo on a corporate level. If you want to mine rare earth metals, there WILL be companies who will purchase your tailings from you for what cheaper metals they can tear out of them, but then what do they do with it? They can't sell it back to the mine they purchased it from. They can't store it anywhere, because it's "toxic waste" when it could just be chalk matrix that could safely be dumped next to the nearest mountain -- except it might squish a scorpion or two. So this secondary market becomes unprofitable/overregulated and therefore nonexistent.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    5. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Kirijini · · Score: 1

      a big problem is that if you pick up a rock, you own it. In the western US mining districts, those rocks are laden with natural concentrations of all sorts of low-value heavy minerals that are magically transformed into "toxic waste" the minute you touch it.

      the mineral complexes are intrinsically "toxic waste"

      the environment is naturally full of heavy minerals.

      I don't see the problem. Nature has some naturally occurring toxic sites. Okay, I buy that. If you go out there and move the toxic materials around, you're responsible for the toxicity. I buy that too.

      The problem you seem to have is that, by your facts, there's no causal connection between the mining and the toxicity. I'll take this as true. Nevertheless, SOMEONE has to deal with the toxicity. Its either the government (i.e., the public, i.e., taxpayers) or its the people who profit from extracting value out of the toxic site.

      I don't have a natural preference for either option - sometimes its best for the government to handle problems (national security? public roads? health care?), and sometimes its better for the landowner / profit maker. It depends on the situation; it depends on the arguments on either side.

      So, please, present your argument why the government should bear the cost to clean up mine tailings, and not the company making money.

    6. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      This is why I think the oceans are the future of nuclear power and mining. What we need is a good way to sense minerals on the bottom of the ocean. Then we can dispatch robots.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    7. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      How about nature have to clean it up, because nature put it there in the first place?

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    8. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds like a round about way of saying that it would be profitable to mine if you were allowed to leave your tailings, and the waste from the refining processes in big piles on the ground.

      WTF are you talking about? Why should a mining company clean up arsenic, heavy metals, etc. that were there naturally there to begin with and don't pose a hazard to anyone or anything?

    9. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by evil_aar0n · · Score: 1

      Mine owners would never let something like this happen, right?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picher,_Oklahoma
      http://www.abandonedok.com/picher/

      --
      Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
    10. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      No, they've created a regulatory framework to prevent mining companies from leaving highly concentrated piles of toxic crap where ever they feel like, including the local water table.

      ~X~

      --
      ~X~
    11. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Gee, crude oil is natural too. Why did everybody get so pissed off about Exxon Valdez? Natural concentrations aren't so natural when you're done with it. So much company propaganda I'm hearing.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    12. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by dookiesan · · Score: 1

      and this is an even less round about way of saying "I'm a douche." He made some good points.

    13. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by deetoy · · Score: 1

      I've always marveled at how natural phenomena will inspire poets, scientists, theologians and activists to wax lyrical about the spiritual/cosmic/scientific significance of a volcano, glacial canyon or earthquake. It seems that if man builds something then it must be evil and punished. Natural phenomena spew crude oil into the oceans, animals became extinct before mankind and we are debating how legislation designed to protect the environment can lead to politically unpalatable industries being exported to countries prepared to compromise their own safety & environment. I'd be interested to see more details on the 'background' levels. My limited experience with EPA (non US) has seen negotiated programs covering the project lifetime. Witty activists will look at an operating site (or proposed project) and bemoan the rampant pollution they see and ignore the long term programs funding research, conservation programs and site rehabilitation. 'Waste' from the refining process is dirt & rock taken from one place, processed and stacked in another place. Is that really much different to termite mounds?

    14. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nature didn't dig up the toxic stuff, though. If you run over a skunk, you can't exactly blame "nature" for the resulting smell.

    15. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by inthealpine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, only if it was opposite day and you were a leprechaun.

      Since you are going to pretend not to understand, let me simplify.

      A rock on the ground is nature, a rock in you hand is a 20 million dollar hazmat cleanup.
      Don't act like your green, ghoulish, commie, contribute nothing, luddite, hypocritical brain doesn't understand what the man said. Little fucks like you are what causes the chasm with rational people who want to protect the environment. Do I think we should dump heavy metals into water supplies? No you douche bag conceived fuck hole.
      If I were to ask you if you wanted to help me start a not-for-profit to keep legitimate mining in court and from ever breaking ground, what would you say? You would be giving me a reach around in the next Denny's parking lot. I know what you're saying, a reach around in a parking lot that doesn't seem ergonomic, well fucker that just proves my point, if your first thought is about the logistics of a Denny's parking lot reach around instead of the weight on society that frivolous lawsuits cost everyone you've reached your anti-epiphany. You don't matter so you get in other peoples way. While people try to make something worthwhile you (and people like you) bite at their ankles like my 8 mo. old puppy, except my puppy now has funding and a lawyer.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    16. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How about nature have to clean it up, because nature put it there in the first place?"

      Nature, however, did not finely grind the rocks containing the heavy metal minerals and expose them to the environment allowing them to easily leach into the environment. At least on the scale of of a typical mine.

      It is absurd to require a site to be cleaner than the environment. But mine tailings aren't natural in any sense of the word.

    17. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Second, a big problem is that if you pick up a rock, you own it. In the western US mining districts, those rocks are laden with natural concentrations of all sorts of low-value heavy minerals that are magically transformed into "toxic waste" the minute you touch it. This has arguably been the biggest killer of new mining. The obligation to scrub natural mineral formations of elements with no economical value very substantially increases the cost because you end up "mining" metals that have no value. This is particularly problematic for things like rare earth metals -- the mineral complexes are intrinsically "toxic waste" under standard regulatory regimes. It doesn't matter that they are natural, the mining company is obligated to treat nature as a superfund site.

      Nobody is going to come after you for picking up natural rocks and placing them back down again. Mining companies dig up large amounts of minerals and use chemical and physical processes to refine them to very high concentrations. That's not natural, and if companies leave waste and/or tailings they need to be responsible for their safe disposal. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

      FWIW I grew up in NE Nevada and 90% of my friends and family still work in the mining industry. They all think they're overregulated even though OSHA and the EPA barely enforce anything in Nevada. The reason new mines aren't added in the US is because the cost of labor is too high and safety/environmental regulations in other countries are barely existent. The idea that the EPA is some overbearing governmental agency that is always stepping into mining efforts is pure bullshit. They give hand slap fines and never force polluters to stop, even in cases where there are decades of willful disregard for federal regulations. For years the agency has been filled with people who have very high level connections to mining, energy, and manufacturing corporations. The idea that mining companies are somehow afraid of the EPA is nonsense.

    18. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      But it did not get dug up. It got bashed into while other stuff got dug up.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    19. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by precariousgray · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a round about way of saying that it would be profitable to mine, if it were.

      --
      not much, just being forced to manually insert line breaks into my comment
    20. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, if those tailings & waste have no higher concentrations of heavy metals than naturally-occurring minerals that are abundant in the area, then why can't they leave them sitting on the ground?

    21. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Second, a big problem is that if you pick up a rock, you own it. In the western US mining districts, those rocks are laden with natural concentrations of all sorts of low-value heavy minerals that are magically transformed into "toxic waste" the minute you touch it."

      I'm not in the mining industry, but I am a geologist. The problem isn't that the rocks are laden with naturally-occurring metals that happen to be toxic, it is that the mining process usually ends up crushing and/or powdering the rock. The rocks are crushed for a simple reason: for mechanical and chemical separation of the good bits from the useless bits. The remainder -- which is often the majority of the volume of the excavated rock -- usually contains some residue of unrecovered valuable stuff (no extraction process is perfect) combined with the uninteresting minerals, many of which are themselves toxic or chemically reactive even if they aren't toxic. Ultimately that waste rock gets dumped into a pile (a tailings pile) or sometimes back into the mine pit or underground workings.

      The problem with this material even though it was originally "natural", is that you have transformed it in several key ways versus the way it was in the naturally-exposed deposit:
      1) you've vastly increased its surface area by crushing/powdering it
      2) you've (usually) introduced water, and
      3) you've introduced oxygen
      These three processes combined may sound innocuous but you've set up the conditions for chemical reactions such as oxidation of sulphide minerals to occur at rates many thousands of times faster than when the rock was in the natural deposit and experiencing only surface weathering. The potential for ground or surface water contamination by a brew consisting of sulphuric acid and dissolved heavy metals is far, far greater than if you had left the rock in the ground where significant oxygen couldn't get at it. They don't call it "acid mine drainage" for nothing. Even in arid areas such as much of the southwestern United States you still have risks from dust blowing off the tailings piles being transported around the surrounding area, sometimes very long distances. Your original claim was that touching this stuff "magically" transformed it into toxic waste. There's nothing magical about it. It's simple chemistry. You increase the surface area for reactions and introduce water and air and you've set up conditions where it can be transported from the site. So, yeah, you've created the setting for a toxic waste site to develop where there used to be a relatively chemically stable natural site.

      All that being said, it is quite possible to take care of tailings properly by (as mentioned) putting them back into the mine (although the rock is still crushed up and therefore more chemically reactive the mine may be able to trap most of the resulting chemically mobile products - a lot of it depends on the groundwater situation), and tailings piles can be stabilized by draping them in a clay seal (keeps out water and air) and planting vegetation on the top. It's kind of like making a landfill site. These sorts of requirements do cost more money than just leaving the stuff where it falls after processing, which was the way it was done historically, but they are the responsible thing to do. If stabilizing the products of mining make a mining operation currently uneconomic -- too bad. Wait until the price goes up sufficiently to do it right. The irresponsible ways that historical mining operations were done is a large reason why there is so much opposition against mining in the first place. It's not "environmental activists" that have changed the old practices, it is ordinary people being affected by past mistakes made over many years.

    22. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its also a great way of saying hippies are hindering our progress, and are using the underhanded tactics that corporations have used for years to dick people around.

      Basically, hippies are just as bad as everyone else. I'm glad I know this now.

    23. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by Hodr · · Score: 1

      Is there a +1 "Jesus Christ, don't step on this guys lawn"?

    24. Re:US mining is politically uneconomical by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      No, it sounds like a direct way of saying that it might be profitable to mine if you weren't required to "clean up" a bunch of stuff that was already there. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle: mining to extract valuable minerals from ore that also contains toxic stuff will necessarily produce concentrated toxins as well as concentrated value. So the rational answer is to engineer a way to cheaply return the toxins to the (already toxic, hello?) ground in such a way that they will only increase the toxicity of a limited area - then put a fence around that area along with signs that say, "Keep Out!" Then curious dumbfucks will go in there and die. Win-Win!!

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
  19. Re:That would explain the rise in testicular cance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost funny, but rare earth != radioactive.

  20. The DR Congo by e2d2 · · Score: 1

    This is exactly why the warfare in the DR Congo is so important to the world. If anyone took a close look at it they'd realize that the modern world is raping that country by any means necessary in order to secure cobalt and other rare minerals. A lot of shady actions being taken by world governments and multi-nationals for control.

  21. Sam Walton believed in buying locally by perpenso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Thanks for the advice, Sam Walton

    IIRC Sam Walton believed in buying locally, or at least domestically. Corporations do not always continue with the policies and practices preferred by their founders.

    1. Re:Sam Walton believed in buying locally by operagost · · Score: 1

      Little Jeff-reyy is probably too young to remember when Walton was still alive and Wal-Mart sold domestically produced products almost exclusively.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  22. Alternative translation.... by tacokill · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Yea, it could be the way you describe....or....

    We could take "encourage development" as another way to say "keep the fucking government out of my business and let me run it". As a business owner in the process control industry, I bet I know which translation he means. Believe me, nobody wants to cozy up to the government right now and certainly not this administration. Companies only do so out of political favor or out of fear.

    If you think otherwise, now is your chance to start your own company and deal with the government. (sarchasm on) I am sure they will treat you fairly and I am sure they will do everything they can to make sure you keep as much profit as you can since you are risking so much by starting your own company.(/sarchasm) If you are really lucky, you can work in one of the industries that government is currently "helping" with: finance, insurance, medical, or energy. Good luck!

    What's that you say? You don't want to take that kind of risk? Well....neither does this CEO. That's why he wants the government in on the deal on the front end. It minimizes the risk that they will screw him down the road...

    1. Re:Alternative translation.... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      "Only out of political favor or fear" is a very large only... One that keeps entire industries running, in fact.

      Maybe process controls isn't one of those industries with the right amount of pull in the right places. If so, I'm sorry about that.

      That doesn't change the fact, though, that certain segements of business are recipients of massive public largess. Tax breaks, free land, direct payouts, access to Fed credit on extraordinarily generous terms, mineral extraction and grazing concessions on public land for laughably tiny sums. When even purely recreational crap like movie filming and sports arenas routinely scores substantial subsidies, particularly at the state and municipal level, I don't think that it is at all implausible for a mining outfit with access to the "national security" card to be angling for a hit of sweet, sweet, subsidy.

      The distribution of this pork is hardly equitable, and I have no delusions about my ability to score any(from the bitterness of your tone, I'm guessing that neither do you); but that doesn't make its existence any less of a fact. Just ask AIG's counterparties...

  23. use it ? by Spaham · · Score: 1

    I may be silly, but if those are *rare* resources, and if they are to become more and more rare, shouldn't states pile them up or save them instead of encouraging companies to build expandable things like cars ??
    What if we find that it can save millions of lives, or stop global warming or whatever, 20 years from now ?

    1. Re:use it ? by Arimus · · Score: 1

      Rare in this context really doesn't mean rare as in short supply...

      "As defined by IUPAC, rare earth elements or rare earth metals are a collection of seventeen chemical elements in the periodic table, namely scandium, yttrium, and the fifteen lanthanides.[1] Scandium and yttrium are considered rare earths since they tend to occur in the same ore deposits as the lanthanides and exhibit similar chemical properties.

      The term "rare earth" arises from the rare earth minerals from which they were first isolated, which were uncommon oxide-type minerals (earths) found in Gadolinite extracted from one mine in the village of Ytterby, Sweden. However, with the exception of the highly-unstable promethium, rare earth elements are found in relatively high concentrations in the earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element in the earth's crust at 68 parts per million."

      --
      --- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
  24. That's Black Gold, Jim by introspekt.i · · Score: 1

    Texas Li!

  25. just who 'owns' what about to be resolved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    many of our greed/fear/ego based 'borders' are dissolving as we fail to communicate/care for one another etc...

    never a better time to consult with/trust in your creators, who, it appears, are willing to share everything with everyone at no charge. wonder what the problem is? borders?

  26. Are you serious? ROFLMAO by tacokill · · Score: 0

    But we should seriously start suing countries like China for unfair trade practices like destroying the environment.

    This is one of the funniest things I have ever read on Slashdot. Really? Sue the Chinese because they are polluting the environment? What if they turn around and sue us for jealousy?

  27. Ummm. what happened to the existing plants.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ummm. what happened to the existing plants....

    You know, the plants that were here in the U.S. back when we used to make stuff here.

    Probably torn down and the stainless steel sold for scrap.
    Where the factory and separation plant was is probably now a warehouse for stuff made in china.

    Bah, Wall Street, sacrifice long term viability for short term profit.

  28. Did someone say Adam Smith? by copponex · · Score: 1

    When interests rates get so high, all the capital in a market floods to the finance industry because it offers large and immediate returns without many associated costs. The effect of deregulation, including the abolishment of usury laws early in the 20th century, has led to a world financial market that's basically a hundred trillion dollar casino. The Dow Jones number is perfectly meaningless in relation to the real economy. How many people are employed? What real goods are they producing? These are questions that land on deaf ears in the modern economy.

    The legal rate, it is to be observed, though it ought to be somewhat above, ought not to be much above the lowest market rate. If the legal rate of interest in Great Britain, for example, was fixed so high as eight or ten per cent. the greater part of the money which was to be lent, would be lent to prodigals and projectors, who alone would be willing to give this high interest. Sober people, who will give for the use of money no more than a part of what they are likely to make by the use of it, would not venture into the competition. A great part of the capital of the country would thus be kept out of the hands which were most likely to make a profitable and advantageous use of it, and thrown into those which were most likely to waste and destroy it. Where the legal rate of interest, on the contrary, is fixed but a very little above the lowest market rate, sober people are universally preferred, as borrowers, to prodigals and projectors. The person who lends money gets nearly as much interest from the former as he dares to take from the latter, and his money is much safer in the hands of the one set of people than in those of the other. A great part of the capital of the country is thus thrown into the hands in which it is most likely to be employed with advantage.

    Adam Smith
    Book II, Chapter IV
    Wealth of Nations

  29. One... billion.... dollars! by xerent_sweden · · Score: 1

    Money can't be a problem, just borrow it from China!

  30. at last! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we can finally control the worlds economy...

  31. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  32. Not safe? by bkaul01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have all sorts of off-shore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, and when Hurricanes Katrina and Rita came through back-to-back, none of 'em leaked a drop. There were some minor spills from beached tankers, but none from the drilling platforms and piping. It can most certainly be done safely. We're already doing it wherever NIMBY political obstructions don't prevent it.

    1. Re:Not safe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      sorry you seem to still believe this, but it is propaganda that has been debunked repeatedly:

      http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/19/opinion/main4275167.shtml

    2. Re:Not safe? by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      That is a lie, there were millions of gallons which leaked into the gulf. This includes from pipes and transit systems and these have to be considered a result of the oil rigs as they are an essential part of the operation. In fact the massive spills after the hurricanes is a good example of why it should not be done. THe gulf drilling also contributes a marginal, pretty much insignificant amount to US energy consumption.

    3. Re:Not safe? by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative

      We have all sorts of off-shore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, and when Hurricanes Katrina and Rita came through back-to-back, none of 'em leaked a drop.

      [Citation Needed]

      This was the 3rd google result for 'gulf of mexico oil spills'
      http://blog.skytruth.org/2007/12/hurricane-katrina-gulf-of-mexico-oil.html

      Seems like you're just regurgitating a Republican talking point.
      Read the Minerals Management Service press release and report if you're skeptical.

      /For the life of me I can't seem to find the portion of the Coast Guard website that lists all the oil spills which have ever been reported.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Not safe? by bkaul01 · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Thanks for the info.

  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. couple of reasons by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    but lets say, start now
    six years from now, it's 85% built out and

    1- someone finds a better way to build end products without rare earths
    2- someone finds a simple method of separation that does not require a billion dollar facility
    3- we start finding alternative sources for reasonable cost (an asteroid of platinum)
    4- a new carcinogen is discovered as a by product of the process that shuts you down
    5- economic upheaval destroys your financing

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  35. Re:Compare Nuclear Waste by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    Oh, I'm sure that the plant, when it eventually gets built, will have to be sited well away from the people who actually matter; but there are options for that, especially once demand makes itself properly known.

    If demand for coal can effectively sell Appalachia's transformation into a lunar theme park, even to many of its residents, I'm sure demand for rare earths can manage to site a chemical plant or two somewhere where the output won't kill anybody important.

  36. security indeed! by Gitcho · · Score: 1

    [But the CEO of a rare earch supply company said] 'From what I see, security of supply is going to be more important than the prices.

    He must be awesome at security, because I've sure as heck never heard of a rare earch ...

    1. Re:security indeed! by rubycodez · · Score: 1
  37. Strategic decisions half-implemented by kimvette · · Score: 1

    This seems like a strategic decision more than anything, much like sitting on our tremendously huge oil reserves and not letting anyone drill them. The problem is, we lack refining capacity for raw materials such as petroleum, rare earths, and have even lost steel refineries in recent decades. Should there be a WWIII, without the production facilities in place, the US will be a sitting duck. We buy all our shit from China and Russia, who in reality are not our friends, never were, and make no attempts today to be. They're happy to sell us stuff while we keep shutting down refining and manufacturing facilities, and helping us spend our way into bankruptcy. Should there be a war with China or even Russia, how can the US possibly win with no access to local manufacturing?

    We've happily been selling China our banks, manufacturing tooling that 'we don't need anymore' (GM sold a lot of automotive manufacturing tooling to China, including Saab 9-5 tooling) and we've likewise shifted North American manufacturing to Mexico and Canada by and large (is your "American" car really american? Chances are the unibody, chassis and brake components were manufactured in Mexico, the electronics and interior items in China, and it was slapped together in either Canada or the USA by lazy low-skilled union workers. What manufacturing and oil refining base do we have domestically, aside from rubber dog poop factories?

    It's one thing to strategically set aside certain reserves for the sake of defense and possible combat or economic warfare, but it's a half-assed step at maintaining such leverage because if it takes 5-10 years to build production facilities, or oil refineries, and so forth, what good does having the reserves do but to give the would-be winners of any war unfettered access to the reserves? Even if the US decides to restrict mining/pumping and production of those materials, the infrastructure should be in place and be continuously running at levels which will ensure that not only do the production facilities work, but manpower and distribution are on hand to quickly ramp up production if required.

    Why do we continue to build up the manufacturing base of potential enemies, and either destroy or export our own to those same potential enemies?

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:Strategic decisions half-implemented by bstender · · Score: 1

      "Why do we continue to build up the manufacturing base of potential enemies, and either destroy or export our own to those same potential enemies?"

      ummm, cuz the decision makers end up with a shit-pile of money?
      http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar2010/forb-m12.shtml

      --

      --
      look sig is kool
  38. Except of course... by Chicken_Kickers · · Score: 1

    Except of course if they have moved on and developed new technologies that doesn't require the said rare minerals/resources. You then end up missing making a profit. I believe that the US is sitting on a stockpile of oil based on this pie analogy. If the rest of the world moves away from oil and use other sources of power, then those stockpiles will become worthless. You also forget that that while you are buying their resources cheaply, they are making a big profit and with rival countries like China, this means you will have a rich and more powerful rival to contend with.

    1. Re:Except of course... by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Petroleum is used for a lot more than energy (I hear it makes a great jelly). That said, once electric cars become the norm, people might still use petroleum for energy in niche (expensive) markets like jet fuel.

  39. What's the holdup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Half a million dollars, or even a billion is a lot of money, but put in context, I don't see why it would be a barrier. We are building billion dollar football stadiums, some without public subsidies. One would think that a processing plant for vital rare materials to make the engines of commerce turn would get some love.

    1. Re:What's the holdup by bstender · · Score: 1

      not as long as you can get it for pennies on the dollar by raping someone else's land and walking away from healthcare and cleanup costs.

      --
      look sig is kool
  40. Re:Compare Nuclear Waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes - some of those tanks probably even contain dihydrogen monoxide! When will those evil corporations quit exposing us to such diabolic chemicals! Not to mention that some types of stainless steel even contain molybdenum - anything spelled that weirdly must be bad! :D

  41. Horsepoop yourself. It's a contract by Fished · · Score: 1

    The constitution is a contract, established between "the several states", the people of said states, and the federal government. If you tried to interpret any other contract as a "living document", granting one party new rights and privileges according to its own interpretation of changing conditions, you'd be laughed out of court. The contract has a process for dealing with changing conditions--it's called an amendment! Now I happen to agree with you that the clean air act is constitutional (under the commerce clause, because air pollution is interstate) but this "living document" stuff is a formula for tyranny. It takes what was intended to be a written constitution, with strictly enumerated powers, privileges and rights, and turns it into something like the Roman Republic, which had no written constitution--just traditions. And we all know how that ended up.

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
  42. we also have an abundance of... by night_flyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    oil, oil shale, and natural gas that we cant touch thanks to environmentalists and their willing accomplices in the Gov't... what make you think we will be allowed to tap these resources?

    --


    Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
    Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
    1. Re:we also have an abundance of... by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 3, Funny

      When the environmentalists can't afford their SUVs anymore, we will be allowed.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
  43. Re:Horsepoop yourself. It's a contract by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

    This strictly enumerated stuff is nonsense. The founders knew damn well that things like "general welfare," "necessary and proper," and "regulate commerce" are hopelessly vague. The reason they're vague is because then, as now, the founders couldn't agree on exactly what powers the federal government should have. It should be noted here that the people who didn't want a strong federal government came by that position because they wanted to keep their slaves. In drafting the purposefully vague language in the constitution the founders kicked the can down the road so that we could adapt the language as we needed to be a properly functioning nation.

    See the debate over the constitutionality the alien and sedition acts and the the first and second banks of the united states - that were engaged in by the founders themselves.

  44. Re:Compare Nuclear Waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Middle America's aversion to industry"? WTF?

    I'm from a small town in the Midwest, and we would have *killed* to stop industrial jobs from leaving our area for Mexico and China.

    NIMBYism is something that you find in Washington, Oregon, California, and the East Coast...not in Ohio and Kansas.

  45. Re:Horsepoop yourself. It's a contract by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

    Now I happen to agree with you that the clean air act is constitutional (under the commerce clause, because air pollution is interstate) but this "living document" stuff is a formula for tyranny.

    You misunderstand what "living document" means.

    In regards to the Constitution, it means that the document is not fixed forever. It can be amended via procedures established within it.

    The problem is that conservatives (in the true sense of the word) have taken that option off the table... so instead of changing the contract by the mechanism provided, we work around the contract. This happens all the time, in business and in government. When you have a contract that doesn't suit any of the parties to the contract, but cannot edit the contract for some reason, you work around the contract. It's not the ideal way to operate, but sometimes you just need to get shit done.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  46. Wal-mart was a technology pioneer by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Little Jeff-reyy is probably too young to remember when Walton was still alive and Wal-Mart sold domestically produced products almost exclusively.

    Wal-mart under Sam Walton was also a technology pioneer. They computerized all their stores, hooked them up to headquarters via satellite, computerized sales and inventory and had near real time snapshots back in the 1970s. They incentivized suppliers to computerize so they could plug into Wal-mart's near real-time sales data. Sales data could be viewed from national to regional to store levels. They pioneered automatic digital purchase orders for inventory restocking, computerized logistics and rebalancing, ...

    The data mining Wal-mart pioneered discovered many interesting behaviors. For example when big storms are heading towards Florida and the Gulf Coast pop tart sales skyrocket. I think Wal-mart tied in weather reports to their system and automatically move pop tarts from the heart land to the coast when major storm alerts are issued.

  47. I do not think it means what you think it means. by Garrett+Fox · · Score: 1

    And on "general welfare", its co-author James Madison explicitly explained that the phrase does not mean what you're reading it to mean. In fact, the idea that it could be misread that way was something he took as a sign of paranoia among Anti-Federalists. See Federalist Paper #41. Short version: "If we'd meant to give the federal government a power to do whatever is good for the country, we wouldn't have worded it in such an obscure way, followed it in the same sentence with a list of specific granted powers, [and then added an amendment spelling out that the federal government lacks unlimited power]." I don't think you can point to a single person in the Founders' generation who, before ratification (Hamilton changed his tune later), claimed there was an open-ended "general welfare" power and didn't oppose the Constitution on that ground.

    You need to amend the Constitution if you think it's not well-suited to today's situation.

    --
    Revive the Constitution.
  48. Last amended in 1992. by Garrett+Fox · · Score: 1

    The US Constitution was last amended in 1992, a scant 18 years ago. You seem to be saying that it's not as easy as you like to amend it, even though you know it can be and is amended legally, so you choose to violate its terms. That's why multiple states are starting to say outright, "No, we're not going to obey certain federal orders, because they go against the contract." See eg. the Tennessee and Montana Firearms Freedom Acts, and Virginia's new pre-emptive nullification of any order for all citizens to buy health insurance.

    Why, yes, you might be able to force your way on everyone, but since you're already saying you advocate "working around" the basic laws of the country, aren't you admitting you're legally in the wrong?

    --
    Revive the Constitution.
    1. Re:Last amended in 1992. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The US Constitution was last amended in 1992, a scant 18 years ago

      When was the last time we had an amendment that actually impacted the operation of government?

      Amendment 27 just deals with legislators not granting themselves immediate pay raises. This amendment is nowhere near the scale of what OP is suggesting. It's addressing an administrative detail, not a critical issue.

      Why, yes, you might be able to force your way on everyone, but since you're already saying you advocate "working around" the basic laws of the country, aren't you admitting you're legally in the wrong?

      Since when is the law black and white? You're deluding yourself if you think it's so simple. It's open to interpretation, and if I choose a loose interpretation, that is my perogative. It's open to debate in the form of cases before the court... if the law were black-and-white, we wouldn't need lawyers and judges.

      Just or unjust, whether you agree or disagree with me, the truth of the matter is that the law is exactly what we make of it. And what we've made of it is a fuzzy mess that you can put a fine point on... but so can your opposition.

      I'm not advocating disregard of the law... I'm advocating understanding that the law must be mutable, that our Constitutional process for changing the law is broken (through lack of use), and thus should not be held as a requirement for action. Because inaction through lack of a useful channel for authorization is, in many cases, worse than taking action outside the scope of the Constitution.

      Note that I think we still need to use the Constitution as a guiding document, and should do our best to only deviate when necessary. It's just that getting ANY meaningful amendment to the Constitution passed is impossible. Our stupid 15-second-soundbite politics have killed our ability to have meaningful political dialogue on a national stage.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:Last amended in 1992. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The US Constitution was last amended in 1992, a scant 18 years ago. You seem to be saying that it's not as easy as you like to amend it, even though you know it can be and is amended legally, so you choose to violate its terms."

      Yep, it only took them 202 years. The amendment was first proposed on December 19, 1789. If that is easy, what exactly do you define as difficult?

      And if you are going to argue legal matters, I would suggest that you understand them. It is perfectly legal to interpret a contract. It is also perfectly legal to interpret the Constitution. That's the purpose of the Supreme Court.

  49. But we won't use them. by TaleSpinner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > the US has its own largely untapped reserves that could safeguard future tech innovation

    Oh, sure, that'll help. With the lunatic left running things we will never manage to open another mine - no matter how crucial the material might be to "future tech". In fact, it's usefulness in future tech is probably proportional to the amount of protest it will create at proposals to mine it.

  50. Re:Compare Nuclear Waste by QuasiEvil · · Score: 1

    Yeah, not sure what part of Middle America the grandparent poster is thinking of, but any part I've been to (including 22 years as an Iowan, now ten in Colorado as an Iowan in Exile) would love to have real manufacturing and basic industry jobs - good, relatively stable work with an actual product. Midwesterners tend to be pragmatists, and realize that industry=jobs=money, but that there are tradeoffs. I'd say you'd be much more likely to throw a rock and hit a NIMBY on the coasts than you would in the Midwest.

  51. Yes we've seen how the US handles trade disputes by future+assassin · · Score: 4, Informative
    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  52. The WTO & the environment. by Valdrax · · Score: 2, Informative

    We have international courts and trade agreements. If they don't play fair, they can get slapped with tariffs or outright bans. And if they won't play ball at all, well, by our own rules we should not be trading with them.

    You seem to be under the impression that our international treaties were written in a way to provide a fair shot for communities that favor strong environmental and labor protections over bottom-feeding rent-seekers.

    Unfortunately, the WTO cares far more about trade barriers than the environment. While the WTO recognizes the right of nations to protect human health and their natural resources, it does not recognize any restraint on trade in "like products." So, for example, if you want to ban tuna caught in a way that threatens dolphins, you can't do that under WTO/GATT precedent if the end products (canned tuna) is the same. It doesn't matter that the method of making the product is different, and that customers may be concerned. Dolphin-safe & dolphin-unsafe canned meat is physically the same.

    Here is a good list summarizing the big mixed-bag of WTO & GATT v. the environment lawsuits. Generally speaking, a law that governs the effects of a product once on US soil are fine, as long as you treat foreign and domestic products equally. A law that tries to govern how a product is made in another country which is indistinguishable from an equivalent product made elsewhere is generally not okay.

    Reading about WTO/GATT cases is often very frustrating. Sometimes it's because the international bodies make decisions that seem grossly obstructionist to protecting the environment. Other times it's because countries are trying to hide flagrantly protectionist measures against foreign goods (while safeguarding domestic goods) under the rubric of protecting health & the environment. (Take the Thai cigarettes case, where the US sued Thailand for blocking cigarette imports for health reasons ...but still allowed the sale of domestic cigarettes.)

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    1. Re:The WTO & the environment. by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Just a small comment, tuna is facing extinction because of overfishing both of the tuna and its preys. Forget that dolphins are cuter than tuna, they are a minor problem, here.

    2. Re:The WTO & the environment. by spun · · Score: 1

      Oh, I know what I desire is impossible, and that the WTO was set up to protect entrenched interests, not communities. I suffer no illusions as to how the game is played, I just knew someone like you would come along to explain it. Much more effective than me saying it, I think. I'm the straight guy, setting you up for the punchline. Ha. Ha. Ha.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  53. Re:Horsepoop yourself. It's a contract by hey! · · Score: 1

    Well, it is sort of *like* a contract, but it is definitely *not* a contract in any reasonable sense of the word.

    Is it possible to be a party to a contract without consenting? Well, did *you* vote for the Constitution? How about all the people who voted *against* ratification. Are they a party to the "contract"?

    No. The Constitution is *a* constitution; not a contract. It is not a binding agreement between two parties, it is a specification for the structure, function, and limitations of government. We the people can use its terms to call the government to account, but that's a very different process than calling being party to a breach of contract suit. For one thing if it *were* like a contract suit, that suit would be adjudicated in a court *which is constituted by the Constitution*.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  54. Unobtainium by blaster151 · · Score: 1

    How can unobtainium not be a tag?!

  55. Why are we mining anything? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    It's dumb..

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  56. Advanced Automation for Space Missions... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I predict within twenty years or so, you can do this kind of separation in your backyard. Rare Earths are actually pretty common. Some people who realize that may not want to put in all the money for a conventional plant?

    Meanwhile, the US spends a trillion dollars a year of "defense". But can't be bothered to have a plant in the country to produce strategic materials... What an odd notion of "security".

    If you're going to bother to set up such a complex extraction facility, why not go all the way, for exactly the reasons you outline? This sort of process talked about around 1980 can extract and separate anything in there from regular old rock or seawater:
        "Advanced Automation for Space Missions"
            http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
        "Flowsheet and process equations for the HF acid-leach process"
            http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM5E.html#f541

    The chemistry was thought doable even then. Look at the things they worried about being infeasible back then: "If each of the 13 sector components is as complex as the HF acid leach system (certainly a gross overestimate), then the total computer control capability required is about 6 megabytes or 9.4X10e7 bits using 16-bit words."

    I have far more than that capacity on my cell phone...

    The problem is that in the USA, all these industrial processes are separated due to the logic of the "free market", so no one can plan comprehensive materials extraction, production, and recycling facilities of the sort NASA was envisioning thirty years ago...

    But no, the USA has to make plans to attack China (to the cost of trillions if the USA was so foolish) to keep them in line because there are not enough "rare earths" around...
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element
    "The term "rare earth" arises from the rare earth minerals from which they were first isolated, which were uncommon oxide-type minerals (earths) found in Gadolinite extracted from one mine in the village of Ytterby, Sweden. However, with the exception of the highly-unstable promethium, rare earth elements are found in relatively high concentrations in the earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element in the earth's crust at 68 parts per million."

    Do you ever get the feeling somebody is just laughing at us?

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  57. These plants already exist in the USA by gordguide · · Score: 1

    " ... 'No one [in the US] wants to be first to jump into the market because of the cost of building a separation plant,' Hedrick explained. ... [S]uch a plant requires thousands of stainless steel tanks holding different chemical solutions to separate out all the individual rare earths. The upfront costs seem daunting. Hedrick estimated that opening just one mine and building a new separation plant might cost anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion and would require a minimum of eight years. ..."

    Great Western Technologies, Troy Michigan

    http://www.gwmg.ca/html/great-western-technologies-section/index.cfm

  58. Re:Are you serious? ROFLMAO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think they should sue the US government for covert propaganda campaigns.

  59. Re:Compare Nuclear Waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't speak of washington or cali, but I live in the northeast and I can think of two.. three projects off the top of my head that are being prevented by nimbyism, and one is a wind farm proposed to be sited off-shore on shoals. There's no down side* and the fight has still gone on for a decade.

    *assuming the project takes place, as the company proclaims, without public subsidy. But this is NE I'm talking about. Once a large project breaks ground, it's not going to be completed without public subsidy.

    NEers don't want anything new. We love our ugly weatherbeaten saltbox homes (and secretly love our saltbox-inspired, but much less expensive, cookie cutter ranch homes. shhh, don't tell anyone).

    We don't need jobs, either. We can just hire more teachers!

  60. Great. So, now we invade ourselves? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    After all, it is the sacred duty of every President to invade a country for resources.
    So, now we invade ourselves?

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  61. Re:Horsepoop yourself. It's a contract by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

    >>>The Constitution is *a* constitution; not a contract.

    Yes it is, and if you read the original words of the Founders they will call it a "contract". The U.S. Constitution is a contract between the 50 State Legislatures plus the central U.S. government, in the same way the Lisbon Treaty is a contract between the European Member States and the central EU government.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  62. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion