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5-Axis Robot Carves Metal Like Butter

kkleiner sends along an amazing video of what robot-controlled machining is coming to. "Industrial robots are getting precise enough that they're less like dumb machines and more like automated sculptors producing artwork. Case in point: Daishin's Seki 5-axis mill. The Japanese company celebrated its 50th anniversary last year by using this machine to carve ... a full-scale motorcycle helmet out of one piece of aluminum. No breaks, no joints, the 5-Axis mill simply pivots and rotates to carve metal at some absurd angles. Every cut is guided by sophisticated 3-D design software (Openmind’s HyperMill)."

277 comments

  1. Craves Metal by Pennidren · · Score: 5, Funny

    I read that as "Craves Metal" and was scared as hell.

    1. Re:Craves Metal by jayme0227 · · Score: 1, Informative

      I, for one, welcome our new metal sculpting overlords?

      Seriously though, the video was kind of mesmerizing. And now I want a new aluminum motorcycle helmet.

      --
      But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
    2. Re:Craves Metal by eexaa · · Score: 1

      I, for one, put this on the list of things I definitely wanna play with.

      Also, how much does it cost?

    3. Re:Craves Metal by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The robot was extremely impressive.

      The idea of wearing a helmet made of a material hard enough to efficiently transmit blows directly to your skull, soft enough to deform under impact, ductile enough to stay deformed, and a sufficiently good conductor of heat to making cutting its deformed remains off of your head without burning you; but before you bleed out, a specialized operation makes me very nervous.

    4. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Decent CNC machines tend to run anywhere from $250K to $1Million USD in new condition. Consider this is a 5-axis so going into the millions wouldn't be too surprising and also consider unless you are a master of G-Code programming you will need a software program to write the codes for you so you can tack on another $10K-$25K over a few years for the CAD/CAM Software package.

      Also yes I realize there are probably "Free" programs that write G-Codes and I realize that Blender will do modeling but if I am running a machine like this I want software with real support and a reputation which means I would probably go with an AutoCAD/MasterCAM, Solidworks/MasterCAM, Solidworks/SolidCAM or CATIA package.

    5. Re:Craves Metal by dsavi · · Score: 1

      While I don't even have an educated guess, you can pretty safely assume that it's more money than you have in your metal-craving machine budget.

    6. Re:Craves Metal by oldspewey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Double what it will cost in 2 years, four times what it will cost in 4 years, and ten times what it will cost in a decade.

      How long you willing to wait?

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    7. Re:Craves Metal by maxume · · Score: 1

      Are you made of metal?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    8. Re:Craves Metal by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      Pretty certain that's only a showpiece helmet.

    9. Re:Craves Metal by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      As niftily as it was carving it up, it almost seems to crave it... That trophy was damned cool watching the video
      doing it up like that.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    10. Re:Craves Metal by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      A 5 axis machine like that would run you north of $300,000.

      And it's not very easy to play around with, and can get very dangerous if you mess up.

      You also definetly don't want to do it for a living.

    11. Re:Craves Metal by McNally · · Score: 5, Funny

      The idea of wearing a helmet made of a material hard enough to efficiently transmit blows directly to your skull, soft enough to deform under impact, ductile enough to stay deformed, and a sufficiently good conductor of heat to making cutting its deformed remains off of your head without burning you; but before you bleed out, a specialized operation makes me very nervous.

      That's exactly what They want you to think.

      This represents a tremendous step forward in aluminum hat technology.

    12. Re:Craves Metal by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Informative
      Oh certainly. Clearly just a tech demo. I was responding to:

      And now I want a new aluminum motorcycle helmet.

    13. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read that as "Craves Metal" and was scared as hell.

      Everyone knows that robots may be made of metal, but the crave old peoples' medicine. Which they eat for fuel.

      Luckily, I'm insured against them.

    14. Re:Craves Metal by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Not true at all, unless you royally fark up the machine, these machines tend to hold their value for quite a while, especially the 5-axis machines.

    15. Re:Craves Metal by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. It's not for motorcycle riders. It's for conspiracists who want something a little more stylish than aluminum foil.

    16. Re:Craves Metal by shiftless · · Score: 1

      5 axis CNC milling is old news. You can pick up a good used 5 year old machine for 20-40k depending on size and capabilities. Don't forget the cost of tooling as well.

    17. Re:Craves Metal by shiftless · · Score: 1

      This isn't a computer, it doesn't work like that. A good mill, especially a loaded 5 axis CNC model, is not some cheap ass Taiwanese motherboard, it's an extremely expensive TOOL that one purchases (i.e. invests in) with the intent of keeping and putting to work for many years.

    18. Re:Craves Metal by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      Not true at all, unless you royally fark up the machine, these machines tend to hold their value for quite a while, especially the 5-axis machines.

      I think what the OP was getting at is that the prices of these machines is going to drop precipitously over the next ten years. History would tend to suggest he's correct.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    19. Re:Craves Metal by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      They cost a lot, but can you imagine the ROI you can pull with these sorts of tools at your disposal?

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    20. Re:Craves Metal by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Not really, the construction of these machines is pretty automated as is and 3D printing won't get to the quality point where you can make these absurdly priced machines at a reasonable cost anytime soon.

      Not to mention they're expensive because the volume is pretty low but they produce a lot of work. Too many machines and you just have wasted machinery not doing anything. Not to mention a lack of resources to truly run a significantly higher amount of machines than are already run today.

    21. Re:Craves Metal by Andypcguy · · Score: 1

      They're about 120K for a 5 axis and start about 55K for a 3 axis. Then you have all the tooling required which can add up fast. Then you have the software needed to program these like mastercam at 5K per seat and delmia/catia at about 16K per seat.

    22. Re:Craves Metal by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      According to the video, it's 3.6kg without any foam or lining. Ooph. By modern standards, 2kg is very heavy.

      And that's not even getting into the performance problems it would have in an impact.

      -Peter

    23. Re:Craves Metal by skids · · Score: 1

      I'd suggest cutting your teeth on something a bit more low-end before popping megabucks for anything special or any industrial-grade used equipment.

      There's plenty of hobbyist designs for simple 2-axis units. Also a few "cheap" commodity ones for dremmel hobbyists -- still pretty pricey.

      Or see my sig if you're feeling particularly adventurous :-)

      Oh, and I mean "cut your teeth" in the figurative sense, of course.

    24. Re:Craves Metal by oldspewey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And 40-50 years ago, people would have made the same statement about a motherboard being a rare piece of equipment that must be treated as a long-term investment.

      I am of the firm belief that the age of mass production is on the wane. There will of course always be plenty of mass production, but I think the next couple decades will see the rise of customized production in which people can order the fabrication of very specific consumer items, limited only by their own imagination coupled with the capabilities of the fabricator they are ordering from.

      Whether the demand is filled by 3D printers, or multi-axis CNC machines, or nanotechnology, or all three in competition, or all 3 in combination, or something else entirely, one thing I know for sure; the prices of production equipment will fall.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    25. Re:Craves Metal by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      If you noticed, "lining" was carved into the helmet... in aluminum. (One of the close-ups of the front shows the dimples on what would normally be lining on the inside.)

    26. Re:Craves Metal by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You also definetly don't want to do it for a living.

      Why not? My whole family has a machinist background. Used to own their own business too -- I worked many a summer in the machine shop doing everything from grunt work (deburring parts) to production on CNC lathes and milling machines. I would have no issues doing it for a living. There are much worse jobs out there. The only problem that I see with the machinist profession is that it's slowing being murdered by cheap overseas labor. Is that why you say that you wouldn't do it for a living or is there something else at play?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    27. Re:Craves Metal by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      I program these machines for a living right now, not 5 axis but 3 axis high speed hard milling machines. Once I finish my masters degree in Mech E, I'm out of this industry forever. And yes, overseas pressure has a lot to do with it, ultimately the guy who programs the machine directly affects the bottom line in the spreadsheets, so there is a large incentive to keep costs low.

    28. Re:Craves Metal by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Aluminum hat technology...is that an upgrade over tin-foil hats?

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    29. Re:Craves Metal by boneclinkz · · Score: 0

      "And when the bit reaches a certain temperature threshold, it simply grabs a newborn from a nearby hopper and quenches itself with blood."

    30. Re:Craves Metal by mrops · · Score: 1

      Will this work as well as tin foil, cause then may order one.

    31. Re:Craves Metal by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      so the next business down the line to get into is driving down the cost of manufacture for the cutting bits?

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    32. Re:Craves Metal by StrategicIrony · · Score: 1

      Do you know how long it's been since "tin foil" actually used tin? :-)

    33. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought tin was the main material for hat production around here...

    34. Re:Craves Metal by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      Whether the demand is filled by 3D printers, or multi-axis CNC machines, or nanotechnology, or all three in competition, or all 3 in combination, or something else entirely, one thing I know for sure; the prices of production equipment will fall.

      The "nanotechnology" advances of the next couple decades are going to come in the form of materials-science improvements (a nano-coating to your windshield to repel rain, or fancy LEDs with carbon-nanotubes somehow increasing performance due to $physics, or something silly like that) and not in the form of microscopic robots that eat robot-food and collectively poop out a bike helmet. That prospect, besides being fundamentally impractical, has a variety of current obstacles which we probably cannot anticipate being solved in the next few years, including manufacture of the robots and powering them without melting/frying them all to a crisp or having power distribution apparatus that takes up so much space that they're not nano-robots anymore. (The cooperative-robot-control issues are possibly solvable by then, though scalability to millions of robots would be a concern; other concerns like the materials of the robot and micro-assembly of the robots and the fragility of the assembly of things might see some strides eventually, but I'm doubtful for the time being.)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    35. Re:Craves Metal by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      Do you know how long it's been since "tin foil" actually used tin? :-)

      Only idiots buy aluminium foil to make "tin foil" hats.

      Smart brain-control-avoiders use lead foil.

    36. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you wear it when you don't want the government listening in on your secret thoughts :)

    37. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'll get one of these helmets. Since I always thought that a hat made aluminium foil was not enough to block my mind from being read/control from ETs.

    38. Re:Craves Metal by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Also yes I realize there are probably "Free" programs that write G-Codes

      Unfortunately, the last time I checked (about six months ago), there wasn't anything free (in any sense) that would produce useful general-purpose G-Code. LumenLab had something that would turn a bitmap into a very basic piece of G-Code (back when they were still selling the awesome RoGR kit, at least), but there was nothing I could find that would convert a 3D part design into G-Code.

      I'd be happy to find that that was no longer the case. I was disappointed that there were several options for reasonably-priced DIY CNC systems, but actually using them required getting ahold of extremely expensive CAD software and commercial add-ons to export G-Code.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    39. Re:Craves Metal by j_sp_r · · Score: 1

      Yes but you need to have it running for making stuff that needs the 6 axis for most of the time. If you run a $1e6 machine continuously for 5 years, your hourly costs on just the machine alone will be 23 euro. Tack on tools and power (LOADS) and you pay hundreds of $$ to make just one shiny part.

    40. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didja notice the big 50 on the back? This is just a celebration, a trophy. It's not useful as an end product, but just the fact that the machine can handle making all the vents and interior of a helmet is just mind-blowing.

    41. Re:Craves Metal by FishOuttaWater · · Score: 1

      yes, and good luck closing that visor too

    42. Re:Craves Metal by Fremandn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are free programs which generate G-Code. Skeinforge is one of them. I'm not sure if it meets your expectations though. See: http://fabmetheus.crsndoo.com/

      --
      I'm NaN, I'm a free variable.
    43. Re:Craves Metal by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I think this is the robotic equivalent of the geneticly engineered 5 assed monkey.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    44. Re:Craves Metal by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      The robot was extremely impressive.

      Well, it's no Robby or Gort, but yeah, kinda cool :) Bring on the cheap, open source, 3D printer version. reprap and co just aren't cutting it (err, no pun intended).

    45. Re:Craves Metal by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. The helmet isn't for protecting against physical blows, like in motorcycling. It's for preventing telepaths from reading your mind or taking control of your body. Didn't you ever watch the X-Men movies?

    46. Re:Craves Metal by cynyr · · Score: 1

      can you keep it doing something >95% of the time? by something, something making you money. Even then at 1,000,000USD you probably won't make it back if all you are doing is art. As an engineer you would try to avoid using this machine if you could because it costs so damn much. Even if you have one sitting there, make a non high value part is dumb, because it could be done for half the cost in some other fashion.

      The amazing part for me was when they had the like 18" extension on the end of the mill. How do you not break the tool off?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    47. Re:Craves Metal by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      According to the video, it's 3.6kg without any foam or lining. Ooph. By modern standards, 2kg is very heavy.

      And that's not even getting into the performance problems it would have in an impact.

      The performance on impact will be FANTASTIC. Think of the damage you'll do to the car that cuts you off in traffic. Your decapitated head should be able to go through the door and take out both front-seat passengers, then carom off the corner post and get any laggards in the back seat.

      Trifecta if your headless torso takes out some pedestrians with your bike.

    48. Re:Craves Metal by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not a whole lot, actually. Do you have any idea how much time you have to spend to set this fucker up? You can't just throw a model at the machine and say "GO!". You have to generate tool paths and such which isn't a simple matter of just running it through some CAM software. You need to know what you're doing.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    49. Re:Craves Metal by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      No, history suggests exactly the opposite. Have you actually looked at buying these things? Machining equipment isn't like every other American-made product that falls apart in 3 years, these things are built to last. A Bridgeport mill from the 70s with routine maintenance runs just as well today as the day it was made.

      Brand new bridgeport mill: $15k
      Used bridgeport mill (~10-20 yrs old): $5k

      Ten to twenty years for a 2/3 reduction in price.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    50. Re:Craves Metal by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is that 40-50 years ago people felt exactly the same way about these machines as they do now. Prices may slowly decline over the next many years, but they will not fall at anywhere near the rate computers did. Moore's law does not apply here. (If you doubt this then just look at the non-computerized machines). The capability of machines does not double every 18 months.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    51. Re:Craves Metal by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no one has thought of that before.....

      Seriously though. Machining isn't something new, it's been around for literally hundreds of years. Obviously steam power changed it a lot with the ability to drive machines under non-human power, but it's generally the same now as it was then.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    52. Re:Craves Metal by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      I find it fucking appalling that we have to discuss whether a completely metal motorcycle helmet with no padding that obviously offers no protection to your skull is a practical device.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    53. Re:Craves Metal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another serious point is that you only have to buy one of these no matter what the scale of your operations are, because you can use it to sculpt all the parts you need to build an identical one, and only for the cost of materials, energy, tool wear, ect

    54. Re:Craves Metal by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      You see, that's the secret angle that hardly anybody gets. It's the tin-foil that matters. All those fools out there wrapping their heads with aluminum foil are tools of the Man.

      Have you priced, or even located a readily available source, for tin foil?

    55. Re:Craves Metal by samwichse · · Score: 1

      Oh god... those damn G-codes...

      I had a summer job at a small jobs shop in high school... there was an old hand there that could just spit the things out right on the green phosphor screen mounted to the side of that thing.

      He was so adept at it that he had NO patience for failure on your part. And there was no sanity checking or error proofing built in, like remembering to initialize tool spinup before moving into position. *Smash* There goes a $300 end mill and a $1000 part!

      And then you were REALLY in trouble.

      I think that thing had magnetic core memory and 4k or 8k of program storage space.

      There were also some Bridgeport mills (3-axis) with punch-tape controls, but we never reprogrammed them, they ran standard parts for the yacht-fitting factory next door.

      And this was in 1998!

      The most advanced machine was an Omax jetmachining station running a DOS based mini-CAD like environment, but you still had to manually program all the damn tool paths.

      Sam

    56. Re:Craves Metal by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      That's not what I meant. I was trying--and apparently failing--to make the point that a new today might cost, say, $50k (number pulled out of my butt for illustration purposes) but in ten years, you'll be able to buy a new one for $25k as production costs fall and competitors start building them.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    57. Re:Craves Metal by WORMSS · · Score: 1

      welcome our new metal sculpting overlords?

      "Did I say Overlords? I meant Protectors" ~ Jonathan Coulton - Chiron Beta Prime

    58. Re:Craves Metal by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Inventor/MasterCam, not AutoCAD

    59. Re:Craves Metal by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And 40-50 years ago, people would have made the same statement about a motherboard being a rare piece of equipment that must be treated as a long-term investment.

      Bad analogy, because a computer motherboard is NOTHING like a CNC machine. Not even close to being comparable, sorry.

  2. Bender by golden+age+villain · · Score: 1

    I will only be really impressed when it can smoke cigars, swear and run on booze.

    1. Re:Bender by wavemancali · · Score: 1

      I will only be really impressed when it can smoke cigars, swear and run on booze.

      I made one of these but surprisingly not a big market for them.

    2. Re:Bender by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Dad, is that you?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Bender by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      I will only be really impressed when it can smoke cigars, swear and run on booze.

      I made one of these but surprisingly not a big market for them.

      You were selling to industry. Next time, try politics.

  3. Lacking in the story... by Defenestrar · · Score: 1

    ...there is no spoon

    1. Re:Lacking in the story... by dougmwne · · Score: 1

      Why? Do you need one? I can have one carved for you.

  4. Not to sound overly nationalist by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't mean to take anything away from the Japanese who are clearly leading in the robotics industry. Especially with technologies like this, humanoid robots like Asimo, and even those creepy robots that have the bad latex skin, these are all really impressive displays of Japan's prowess in this field. More importantly, the control mechanisms are being refined at both the software and hardware interconnects, so this isn't just "robotics", but rather the whole field covers a much broader scope than merely software or just hardware.

    Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area? Why have we decided that we're happy enough building Facebook applications? It's sad to see that we aren't as focused on building real systems that will have an actual physical impact on our surroundings. We took Laertes' ridiculous admonition "to thine own self be true" and turned ourselves and our energies into the very worst of what we are as a nation. We have become exactly what the Japanese saw 20 years ago: a nation of lazy, overpaid workers. And, I hate to say it, we are paying the price for that with our jobs.

    1. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Arancaytar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By what set of criteria do you judge software to be less valuable than hardware?

    2. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by tbcpp · · Score: 1

      +1 I'd mod it up if I had points

      --
      Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
    3. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by TheKidWho · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's the Germans and the Japanese that are currently at the top of the heap when it comes to CNC Machinery... However there are a lot of good American companies up there too, one of the most popular brands in the USA is HAAS, although their 5/4 Axis machines aren't very special.

      It's mostly because they focused on that market and become very good at what they did. You'll see in about 20-30 years China leading that area of industry since they have such a huge focus on manufacturing.

      Anyways, it's the people ultimately programming the machines and the software used to program the machines that are the real driving force behind this industry, without the software these machines would just be dumb lumps of metal.

    4. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      No, it's more that we're mired in worrying about maximizing profits instead of the big picture.

      But, don't you worry... There's a trend beginning to happen that might reverse some of this going on right now.

    5. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Robots look cool and so you think they're technologically advanced. Have you heard of Organovo? That's the company that made Slashdot a few times with their organ-printing technology. They're a US company. How's that for hardware? Or leading the way in a f?

      What do you want to bet that this robot uses software from Microsoft? That the people who built the robot used tools from Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, etc.? That they used Google software in their daily job throughout the development process? Etc, etc.

    6. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by swanzilla · · Score: 5, Funny

      By what set of criteria do you judge software to be less valuable than hardware?

      BitTorrent.

    7. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeez, that was a bad analogy!

    8. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's a hardware guy. Duh.

    9. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      They most likely used windows to run the design software, but they could easily run UNIX with their own set of CAD/CAE software.

      I doubt they needed any APPLE/ADOBE tools, the guys who make these machines are engineers.

    10. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Indeed. However, without the hardware, the software's not much use either.

      I think the point the GP poster's trying to get at is that there's much less of this stuff being showed, funded, etc. by US business and more things like Facebook which provides NOTHING of any real tangible value and has loads of money to do that nothing with.

      To be sure, there's some innovation, building, etc. going on in the US- there's a renaissance about to hopefully start here (the beginnings are showing- whether it takes off, on the other hand...) in the States along those lines.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    11. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      I've often seen the development of advanced robotics technology in Japan attributed to the desire of the Japanese to overcome their falling birthrates without allowing massive immigration. (The current demographics of Japan are wacky beyond anything in the US or the EU, see for example Coulmas' Population Decline and Ageing in Japan ). If there aren't enough Japanese entering the workforce to sweep floors, assemble parts and care for the elderly, then they feel the need to develop machines that can do it instead. Different social pressures could understandably lead to different technological developments. After all, didn't the Romans treat potential new technologies as mere toys because they had endless slave labor?

    12. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      What is more valuable, a 5-axis CNC machine, or the Mafia Wars FB app?

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    13. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Svartalf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think it's not that the software's less valuable, per se- it's that we're worrying about things like Facebook, MySpace, etc. which aren't
      really in the same category of software. The software to make the CNC multi-axis machines go is rather valuable- without the machine
      it's useless, but without the software, the machine's equally worthless. I just wouldn't be putting investment effort into things like
      Facebook. In fact, if Facebook went bye-bye, little of value would actually be lost. Seriously.

      And, I think that's what the GP poster is on about.

      We've gotten where the sort of stuff like Facebook is more important than producing things of value. We should be #1 or #2 in things
      like the CNC space. We should be producing as many chips as the Asia market produces and we consume. But...that's not the case,
      now is it?

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    14. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Dunx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's the startup cost.

      Software product companies are expensive to start, but they're nothing to companies making innovative physical objects. I used to work for a silicon startup - it was a cheap start for silicon company and it still burned through a phenomenal amount of money before it had a product. Software is just cheaper (and often quicker) to get to market.

      So really blame the VCs and the addiction to short term returns in the US stock market.

      --
      Dunx
      Converting caffeine into code since 1982
    15. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by FrostDust · · Score: 1

      Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area?

      The problem of an aging population (increasing ratio of retirees to working-age people) as been a more urgent problem for the Japanese than for the US. Robotics are of a higher interest there because they free up workers from "mundane" jobs to work in other fields. Also, many of these robots were developed to directly assist in elder care.

      We have become exactly what the Japanese saw 20 years ago: a nation of lazy, overpaid workers.

      That's also another piece of the puzzle. It's hard to stay competitive internationally, when [your employees demand higher/their employees are okay with lower] wages. This issue rose its head when GM & Chrysler started going under, comparing them to companies such as Toyota or Honda.

    16. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      Without the hardware, the software would just be a bunch of interesting ideas on a monitor.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    17. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by nnnnnnn · · Score: 0

      It's because it takes much less funding to write a Facebook application and the return on investment a lot higher. And the funding required to develop a mill is much harder to come by than say funding for an iPhone app. For example, there a $200 million fund for iPhone app developers http://www.kpcb.com/initiatives/ifund/

    18. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Threni · · Score: 1

      > Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area?

      What do Americans need this sort of kit for? They don't make anything any more - it's too expensive. Software comes from the US, for now at least. Also, Japanese companies don't just look at how they can manipulate the shareprice over the next 2-3 years to make shareholders happy - there's some sense of planning now to dominate and profit in the future.

    19. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asians build and manufacture, while Americans run the marketing machine/ PR and sales.

    20. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by AndGodSed · · Score: 1

      I see your mafia wars straw man, and raise you with: that cutting machine would be worthless without the software running it.

    21. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by rsborg · · Score: 1

      US: leading in "Andriod", a mobile OS.
      Japan: leading in actual android robotic research.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    22. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by golden+age+villain · · Score: 1

      Imagine how it feels to live in Europe... This being said, the Japanese government is strongly supporting research in the field of robotics with the hope of having sci-fi like robots in the next 20-30 years, meaning intelligent humanoid-like robots. The reason is relatively simple, they are anticipating the collapse of their population which is aging really fast with a fertility rate per woman of about 1.3 (not sure about that one). It's the only industrialized country in which the fertility rate did not stabilize at around 2.1 after declining in the 20th century (there was a good paper about it in The Economist recently but I cannot find it online). So they hope to replace workers by robots, including caretakers for the elderly, cooks and so on. It seems that the most obvious solution would be to allow more immigrants or change something to the way the society is organized but according to the Japanese I know, this seems unlikely to ever happen so they go the way of technological progress.

    23. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Without the ideas there would be no software or hardware, so ultimately the value is in the people who design/run these machines.

    24. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't mean to take anything away from the Japanese who are clearly leading in the robotics industry. Especially with technologies like this, humanoid robots like Asimo, and even those creepy robots that have the bad latex skin, these are all really impressive displays of Japan's prowess in this field. More importantly, the control mechanisms are being refined at both the software and hardware interconnects, so this isn't just "robotics", but rather the whole field covers a much broader scope than merely software or just hardware.

      Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area? Why have we decided that we're happy enough building Facebook applications? It's sad to see that we aren't as focused on building real systems that will have an actual physical impact on our surroundings. We took Laertes' ridiculous admonition "to thine own self be true" and turned ourselves and our energies into the very worst of what we are as a nation. We have become exactly what the Japanese saw 20 years ago: a nation of lazy, overpaid workers. And, I hate to say it, we are paying the price for that with our jobs.

      I always thought that one of the goals of innovation and technology is to make life easier (physically). Just because fewer folks in the US have their own gardens for food, or chop their own wood for heat in the winter, doesn't make us more or less lazy then those in the past. Some would see it as better time management. Assuming that the person utilizing these technologies is working towards something other then gaining 1000 friends on facebook. Regardless of where it originates.

      However, as tech grows, and you logically look to the future of mankind, robots and software will be able to accomplish all that mankind "works" at. Manual labor will be a thing of the past at some point. Albeit long into the future. As soon as it is cheaper to pay for a robot to do manual labor, human manual labor (brick laying, welding, construction, farming, etc..) will no longer be required. So does that mean mankind will be judged in society for only their creativity at that point or leisure skills? I don't know. But I will probably be long gone by the time that happens.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    25. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      > Software comes from the US, for now at least.

      I gather you're not in the software development field.
      Software is spec'ed in the US and farmed out to low-cost programmers overseas. There is no new generation of programmers getting entry level software development jobs in the US. In one generation we will no longer have the ability to develop software on a large scale; Just as we no longer have the engineering infrastructure and ability to go back the Moon.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    26. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by idontgno · · Score: 3, Insightful

      False. The 5-axis system would still carve metal like butter if it were manually controlled. Just more clumsily and slowly.

      Whereas, frankly, Mafia Wars can never be allowed to be present on the winning side of any argument. If it means abjuring the entire history and future of accomplishments in software, it's still a small price to pay.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    27. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without a decent meal those ideas would never take shape and the designers would eventually starve to death, so ultimately the value is in the farmers who grow things to eat.

    28. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The "people" aren't lazy, and your assesment is incorrect. Hondas made in the US are just as good as the Hondas made in Japan. So why is it that "lazy American worker" gets laid off from the Ford plant, then gets a job at the Honda plant and becomes "productive American worker?". Its not the people. Banks, corporations and economics mix to remove jobs from the American economy. Want a job in IT in the US? Good luck with that! If you have one, you can train your replacement before he (and your job) go back to Bangalore. So to sum up: American IT jobs are being shipped to Bangalore. In the 70's it was US steel companies that were being shipped to Japan, Germany and Poland/Czekoslovakia. (Although now a lot of those jobs are in India and China). The garment industry went to Taiwan, Singapore and South American from the '60's to the 80's. Car manufacturing is being lost to overseas competitors who are competing (locals are being squeezed by unions, wages, suppliers, etc). Pharmaceutical companies, the entertainment industry, and a few semiconductor manufacturing plants are still in the US. There are reasons why foreign students do better in school than American students (In the US, the school year is 180 days, in South Korea its 220 days long, in Japan its 243 days long...basically 1 trimester, then 1 week off, then 1 trimester, then 1 week off, then 1 trimester, then 1 week off, then the next school year first trimester...). Its not so much 'lazy' or 'stupid', a lot of it is structural. A lot of it is cultural.

    29. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area? Why have we decided that we're happy enough building Facebook applications?

      We're not? We have? Where's your evidence?

      I work at a US defense contractor. Five years ago, we contracted a shop to machine us a very complicated housing out of a single slug of titanium. Not aluminum, which is far easier to machine. Slots, threaded hardpoints, reinforcing ribs, detents for O-rings, and it had to mate up with a piece they weren't even allowed to see. It had to be made out of a single piece so it would be strong enough to withstand pressures at significant depths. Over 90% of that titanium wound up on the cutting floor when they were done, they had to machine so much out (the source material is only available in solid slugs).

      Nobody acted like it was some big thing. The machine shop wasn't some special secret DoD-only thing. They were a commercial company like any other with a 5-axis CNC mill. It took forever to go through the entire process from material specification and purchase to finished, machined part, and FedEx made plenty of dough off us hauling these heavy things around, but seriously, it was par for the course.

      Also, back while the Cold War was going (late 1980's), Toshiba Heavy Industries got into a lot of trouble with the US because they sold a 5-axis mill to the Russians by way of front companies, so the Russians could make quieter propulsors for their submarines. So the existence of these things isn't even news.

      Modern mills with electromagnetic bearings can run fast enough to cut through all kinds of metals like butter. That's not even getting into laser, water jet, or hot wire cutting.

      Guys, this article is just another slashvertisement. Computer techie with incidental relationship to thermodynamics, much less materials science, sees what modern mechanical engineering could do and gets starbursts in their eyes. Film at 11.

    30. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      obligatory XKCD:

      http://xkcd.com/722/

      The pattern of lights is all wrong!

    31. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      While that is partly true, the Japanese have had a robot fetish for a long time. I mean how old are Mazinger Z and Astro Boy?

    32. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by shiftless · · Score: 3, Informative

      The U.S. *IS* leading in this area. Japan is not the only country that manufacturers CNC machines. Bridgeport has been *THE* name in milling machines for decades. Haas is another big name based out of California.

    33. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by shiftless · · Score: 1

      I guarantee you that Haas and Bridgeport are not showing off Facebook. They do show off their machines to people who actually have the money to buy them, they dont give a shit about the Youtube crowd. But most of them don't have to show off a damn thing, because anyone who is thinking of starting a machine shop in the U.S. is already familiar with most of the options out there.

    34. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm asking this question in all honesty: why do you think it's really needed for US (or any other country for that matter) to lead in anything ?

    35. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by shiftless · · Score: 4, Informative

      What do you mean "they dont make anything any more"? Shows that you know NOTHING about America. Mills are one of the cornerstone tools of our *very large* manufacturing industry here in the U.S.

    36. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by X0563511 · · Score: 0

      The point is that these things actually DO something.

      Facebook wastes time and "helps" people "socialize"

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    37. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Not as old as the population trends.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    38. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by TheKidWho · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, this is rather silly since America still has the largest manufacturing industry in the world by a significant margin.

    39. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by cdrnet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Total Fertility Rates 2010:

      Niger: 7.75 (top)
      USA: 2.05
      France: 1.98
      China: 1.79
      Germany: 1.41
      Italy: 1.31
      Japan: 1.21
      Taiwan: 1.14
      Hong Kong: 1.02
      Macau: 0.92 (lowest)

    40. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Without the control system software running it that 5-Axis machine would just be a useless bridgeport. Don't forget, any good Bridgeport mill already has "5-axis" capabilities.

    41. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japan has a problem with a shrinking population that is becoming top heavy with older individuals. They have a need for improved robots to be used because of a lack of actual people to do these jobs. They're currently developing mechanical suits to aid the elderly faming population with their farming duties. In the US people are easily replaced so robots aren't as big of a deal.

      CNC on the other hand will soon be mastered by the Chinese where manufacturing is a big concern. Technology follows the need.

    42. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Astro Boy manga is from like 1952.

    43. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Culture.

      A) Japan is looking for a way to fill there declining work force.
      B) Initially fiction robots are helpful and nice in Japan. In the US they where always evil.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    44. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by geekoid · · Score: 0

      Define value.

      FB apps create a lot of revenue to the market, and 5-axis CNC machine removes it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    45. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by King+Coopa · · Score: 1

      Well if the Asians keep advancing things like this we won't have a need for their cheap manufacturing labor force to produce our random crap. We can just buy these 3D printers thingies and make our own crap like the good ol' days.

      I invision a future where you go to the local CNC shop and have them analyze a busted transmission plate and carving me a new one. So instead of ordering off for your replacement part for your car (or what ever) you'll simply have a new one made locally.

    46. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      My point still stands.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    47. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by takev · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, these machines are probably doing "high speed machining" which can only be done when they are software controlled, i.e. it can not be done manually.

      In high speed machining, the cutting speed is much higher than is intuitive. As one increases the cutting speed (from zero), the temperature of the tool increases, until it breaks. But there is a sweet spot at a much higher cutting speed where the tool actually is cooled by the cuttings it is removing.

      However this sweet spot is tight and it depends on the angle of attack, the depth of the tool, the forward speed, the rotational speed, and the amount of material being removed. And these must be maintained, as the material is entering the material, leaving the material, makes corners, etc.

    48. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by rhsanborn · · Score: 2

      Culture is not valueless. Some people play mafia wars, others play CoD, others watch American Idol, others follow football, others make beer in their basement. Just because you are fond of one or the other does not make the others worthless. And life filled with only things that are considered purely productive would be dull pretty fast. Japanese people make cool CNC machines, but they also watch TV and sing karaoke too.

    49. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      just be a useless bridgeport.

      thems fightin words...boy. ;)

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    50. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area?

          Where do you think they got it? Toshiba got in trouble in the late 80s http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,965549,00.html for selling US 5-axis machines to the USSR to make submarine propellors. The helmet machining could be done at any one of a dozen machine shops within 25 miles of where I am currently sitting (in Sunnyvale, CA). 5-axis CNC machines were first developed and used about 100 yards from here in the late 50's/Early 60s.

           

    51. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by samkass · · Score: 1

      Why isn't the U.S. leading in this area?

      We are. The US wins almost any robotics competitions there are, and our robotics programs are world-class. Just because some other country happens to come up with a nice demo every once in awhile it doesn't mean we've lost the lead.

      And, I hate to say it, we are paying the price for that with our jobs.

      Ironically, the reason we're losing our jobs is because of our robotics prowess. The US remains the biggest manufacturing country in the world and manufacturing output continues to increase (barring a hiccup for the recession). The problem is that the US is also the most efficient nation on Earth, getting more from each worker (both Government and private) per dollar and per unit time than any other nation on Earth. And efficiency continues to advance faster than growth, leading to manufacturing job losses.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    52. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      Bridgeport:Milling Machines::Craftsman:Hand Tools
      Offer a machinist a Bridgeport and the first thing out of his mouth will be "What year was it made?"

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    53. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by euxneks · · Score: 1

      By what set of criteria do you judge software to be less valuable than hardware?

      BitTorrent.

      I don't know about others, but that implies more value to me. Can you trade hardware over the ether?

      --
      in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
    54. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because our education system is not well funded. Education is a huge, huge deal in Japan and kindergarten kids are going through the same exam-taking stresses that college students are. Now we don't need to take it quite that far in the US, but we could at least fund it.

      The last time we poured money into education, we had the Space Race with Russia and made huge leaps in technology. Then we stopped funding it. That's the problem -- not the teachers, not the tests. I would blame the administrators who look at education as their means to a comfy retirement and truly do not give a care about the staff or kids, but despite that a well-funded school district could still do good in spite of the upper-level greed.

      Whenever there are budget cuts, the first thing they do is cut education. That's why we are in the mess we are today, and why so many young people end up in jail instead of getting a degree.

    55. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      In short: US investors have better business sense. Consider a Facebook app that costs $40k to develop and $2k per month to operate ($88k total cost). Over the two years following its release, this hypothetical app earns an average of $10k per month ($240k revenue). That's a 173% ROI in only two years.

      Now consider a Japanese company that spends $4.5M to develop a neat humanoid robot with no commercial applications because it could never be manufactured at costs accessible to a consumer. That is a negative 100% ROI. But because Japanese companies are kept alive by government credit subsidies, they have to show SOMETHING neat to the politicians to keep the national malinvestment capital flowing.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    56. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

      It's a far, far smaller investment to build a company around some piece of stupid social software. Especially if you're goal is simply sell the company at some point. And you can even outsource the labor.

      A company that produces actual products, especially on this scale, require a real, exhaustive, long-term commitment and a desire to want to make better products better than anyone else offers.

      Many, certainly not all, American companies that still make products seem stuck in the past. They continue relying on the strides and innovations made decades ago and only make half-hearted attempts at innovation. They fail to innovate and improve quality so they can't compete with the likes of the Japanese or some European companies. So they're stuck competing the Chinese but can't possibly match their low prices.

      Most Japanese manufacturing is done in China now, but there are two important points. First, the higher end products are still manufactured domestically. And products that are made in China are closely managed so that quality remains high. American companies, on the other hand, seem to send over designs and let the Chinese figure everything out for themselves. The only requirement seems to be that it's made as cheaply as possible. So what do we end up with? Low quality crap.

      I don't place the blame solely on corporations. There are a lot of factors that have contributed to this. The government certain has a big part in the difficulty companies, especially smaller ones have in thriving. And I feel like the American work ethic has gone to crap.

      To be fair, I don't think it's quite as bad as I'm describing, but then I'm not overly optimistic about things for the US in the long term.

    57. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      No, they will not do new plate or you, because in US there will be a law against copying parts (because it would deprive car manufacturers of their cash)

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    58. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Valuable to whom? I doubt many Mafia Wars players would have much use for a 5-axis CNC machine, while they gain significant entertainment value from Mafia Wars.

    59. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      false. the 5 axis machine is useless if you don't have the software, you could as well do it by hand (which are n-axis machines).

      the software provides speed and precision.

      the 5-axis machine costs (guess) a million. how many pieces do you have to make to justify the simple purchase cost?
      and now if you have to train it by hand to do it's work, you've wasted all the time you could've been doing them novelty foilhats.

    60. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Nah! Our future is to spread the human virus out into space, or die trying.

    61. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Computer techie with incidental relationship to thermodynamics, much less materials science, sees what modern mechanical engineering could do and gets starbursts in their eyes

      Yup. Most folks that don't spend time in the industrial arena don't really have a good handle on what is available. While that single-piece helmet is definitely nice, the fact is that this 5-axis machine is no big deal to anyone with even vaguely recent experience in the field. Hell, a lot of people that had never seen one would probably freak just watching a decent pick & place machine populating a circuit board. There's all kinds of wild and wonderful stuff in the automated manufacturing industry.

      Now, something *really* cool is watching a Rexroth 2-axis gantry shearing off a laser galvo head (held on by four 1/2" steel bolts) like it was butter because a limit switch failed. Even more cool is explaining to your boss what happened, and that it's going to cost an additional four weeks to get a replacement head because they're backordered. :-).

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    62. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I "played" around with mills (mostly) capable of the operations being done on this helmet--which were made back in the mid 60's, and originally ran their programs off of IBM 1400 series (or some such) reel-to-reel tape machines. By the time I was around it, *it was ancient stuff*. Some of the earliest transistor computers went into control mechanisms which ran mills responsible for machining parts critical to our nuclear arms infrastructure... And believe me, cutting some demo part of out aluminum doesn't even compare when you're talking about iotas of material directing photon pressures in a multi-megaton warhead. Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

      To me, it's not clear that the Japanese are leading the robotics industry, at all. Many US mill-makers and accompanying software companies are capable of just the same thing in the video. The only reason that Japanese are leading in terms of humanoid robots (which I will acknowledge, they are) is the culture is infatuated with the idea, and that means more people are working on it. Japanese culture has been crazy over robots for the last 45 years or so. 9/10 Jap males would kill for a robotic sex-slave in the form of their favorite preteen anime character. America? Not so much.

      Our modern top-tier robotic tech, on the other hand, mostly goes into stuff designed to blow something or someone to smithereens... And we do it very, very well.

    63. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by cusco · · Score: 1

      "How's that for hardware?"

      Actually I think that's considered wetware . . .

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    64. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by timeOday · · Score: 1

      By what set of criteria do you judge software to be less valuable than hardware?

      Probably the decline in median standard of living as we switched from one to the other?

      Of course, it could be spurious correlation. But I still don't understand how Germany is such a manufacturing and exporting powerhouse if the secret to success in that field is wrecking the environment and abusing workers.

    65. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by King+Coopa · · Score: 1

      Sadly this is true. If you thought copying software was bad, image the red tape we'll have to go through to get something like this to become a possibility. But, we'll get there...eventually!

      Alternately, someone can make an automobile comprised of "open-source" part designs. It would be, like, the Linux of cars!

    66. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      This machine is European, German made in fact.

    67. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      Yes, but do you know where are the U.S. manufactured goods going, or who the customers are, or why we don't see them on the shelves at the big box stores? It's because foreign goods are usually cheaper at the consumer level, because US manufacturers won't accept such low profit margins. The foreign manufacturers accept such small profit margins because their standard of living is so much lower than ours that they can afford to pay workers peanuts to make all these things. Yes, economy of scale, low profit times lots of sales equals lots of money, etc...

      Once you need big industrial equipment though, it often costs a lot more to import it from overseas than to have it custom built and sent cross-country on a truck/train. Corporate purchasers are actually where a lot of big profits lie - for example look at how much an industrial valve costs (four or five figures is common), or a simple wrench from someone like Snap-On or whoever else forges and builds it here. You can buy an $8 wrench at Home Depot, or you can pay $40 from a big tool company. But, when it really counts, that $40 wrench doesn't break.

      So, that's why we have a huge manufacturing industry that's largely invisible to the consumer.

    68. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Deosyne · · Score: 1

      No, hence hardware being more difficult to duplicate and deliver than software; i.e. hardware being more valuable due to decreased capability to supply the demand that is available.

    69. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you wouldn't download a car..."

      I would if I could

    70. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Year over year profits were not high enough to placate the American fascination with accountants so this industry was sold off or liquidated. The only American machine tool manufactures left who are not specialist is Haas and Fadal and both are low end machine makers.

      IMO the Japanese business culture give more value to Manufacturing and Engineering than to Accountants so hair brain ideas like liquidating because year over year profits weren't high enough just won't fly. Another thing to point out is unit labor cost in Japan is high, so really what's our excuse? Look at William Deming's principles and seven deadly diseases and then compare Japanese and then American management and you'll see why a tiny island nation with no natural resources will flourish in a business that is too hard for American management.

    71. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by cynyr · · Score: 1

      "useless" bridgeport? I'm not sure i'd call it useless, lots of things can be made on them. with a pit of paint marker and a jig, even rather quickly.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    72. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I think it's not that the software's less valuable, per se- it's that we're worrying about things like Facebook, MySpace, etc. which aren't really in the same category of software.

      Exactly. Moreover, the kind of software the US is good at producing is the Mafia Wars type, not the kind which controls 5-axis milling machines. I believe someone else commented here somewhere that this machine is actually supplied by a German company, and that's probably who wrote the software.

      We've gotten where the sort of stuff like Facebook is more important than producing things of value. We should be #1 or #2 in things like the CNC space. We should be producing as many chips as the Asia market produces and we consume. But...that's not the case, now is it?

      Actually, I believe the US makes most CPU chips, as most of Intel's fabs are located here. Of course, most lower-end chips are produced in Taiwan and China.

      Basically, the US pretty much sucks at doing anything really technically difficult any more, unless it's going to be used for a military application. And even there, we're losing ground, as the American military moves to foreign-produced hardware, such as rifles, handguns, and helicopters. (The Army is working with Germany's H&K to develop a replacement for the M16/M4, the standard sidearm is the Italian Beretta, and now they're getting Lakota helicopters from Eurocopter. Of course, the handguns and helicopters are made in America (probably part of the contract), but they certainly weren't engineered here, we're just serving as labor. At least we're not getting our weapons from China... yet.)

      But we can't complain; we've done it to ourselves. We didn't properly reward anyone who chose technical careers, we didn't seriously encourage anyone to go into technical careers, in fact we made fun of people in technical careers and glorified sports "heroes", lawyers, doctors, and singers instead. We've made our bed, now we get to lie in it.

    73. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Of course, it could be spurious correlation. But I still don't understand how Germany is such a manufacturing and exporting powerhouse if the secret to success in that field is wrecking the environment and abusing workers.

      Apparently, it's not, at least not in the long-term. Germany exports much more than the USA does, and with a population much less than 1/3 as large. They export almost as much, on a dollar basis, as China, mainly because their exports are mainly extremely high-value goods, like 5-axis CNC machines. As for software, Germany also does a LOT of software engineering (such as the software to control 5-axis CNC machines). Of course, they don't do much software like Facebook apps.

      One of these days, we'll figure it out, but by then it'll be too late and we'll have a standard of living comparable to Mexico's. Our politicians are already just as corrupt, if not more so. It probably won't be too long before we have shootouts in the streets and headless corpses littering our major cities too.

    74. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Some culture IS valueless, and some culture has more value than other culture. Making beer in your basement, making a DIY CNC machine, and other such activities are more valuable than playing Mafia Wars or following football.

      Anyway, you don't have to only do purely productive stuff. Germans do plenty of fun stuff too I'm sure, but in the meantime, with a population of less than 80 million, they manufacture and export far more stuff than the USA, and almost as much as China. Meanwhile, while we sit on our asses and make fun of educated people and elect people like Sarah Palin who thinks Africa is a country, our economy is rapidly going down the drain, and with it our standard of living. It's not going to go back up, because we don't know how to make anything useful any more, and only know how to make silly things to entertain each other (but not people outside the country), or how to make coffees and lattes for each other. Being unable to export anything of value means that eventually, we won't be able to import anything of value either.

    75. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      After all, didn't the Romans treat potential new technologies as mere toys because they had endless slave labor?

      Probably. And what happened to the Romans? They were overtaken by barbarians and their civilization utterly collapsed, leading to the Dark Ages.

      Maybe relying on cheap labor isn't such a great idea, and the Japanese have the right idea after all.

    76. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, that would probably be either Germany or China. Those two countries lead the world in exports.

    77. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

      I don't know about others, but that implies more value to me. Can you trade hardware over the ether?

      Not yet.. But getting there.. http://www.thingiverse.com/ I know. Crude home made stuff. But the same could be said of computer games in the 80s. And home computers for that matter.

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    78. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Agriculture made us what we are.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    79. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      These machines are nice and all, but forged metal is stronger.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    80. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      They were overtaken by barbarians and their civilization utterly collapsed, leading to the Dark Ages.

      You ought to read a more recent history book. The phrase "Dark Ages" fell out of favour among historians decades ago, and the eastern half of the Roman Empire continued on in its course as the Byzantine Empire for over a thousand years.

    81. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the people suffering in the Western half of the Roman Empire would have been very happy to have known that.

      It certainly was the "Dark Ages"; very little is known about what happened during that time, because few people were educated or literate, and no records were kept. All kinds of technologies were lost. The only people who think the Dark Ages "weren't so bad" are in the Catholic Church; they've been trying to whitewash that portion of history by saying BS like "people had more faith" or somesuch.

    82. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it helps to not spend 23% of your yearly federal budget on the military. And what do you know, Japan was also demilitarized after WWII.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    83. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, why can't we be more universal about this achievement?

      Sure, the Japanese made the final product but let's look at all the layers of abstraction that made this possible. Just from a software perspective, there's the software that powers the tool, the CAD software (Hypermill), the OS these things run on, the programming languages used for the various jobs and so on. On the hardware part, there are all these circuits, processors and whatever parts that make up the machinery (such as the drills).

      It is not the case that they were ALL made by the Japanese. People from lots of different countries contributed to all those abstraction layers. If they were using Linux, then it's some finnish dude and a couple of volunteers from everywhere who contributed. If they were using the C programming language, then it's Ken Thompson. The CAD software is from a German company. There probably is a lot of academic research behind these things as well so it's becomes kinda hard to say who did what.

      Why can't we just look at this as a technological human achievement? Facebook et. al are important applications in their own right. I mean, Youtube could be considered a web-application along the likes of Facebook but it is precisely through Youtube we have a common way to watch these videos.

    84. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Japanese are leading because they need labor. Because of strict immigration policies, they're running out of young people to do manual labor.

      Not trying to be racist, but when I first saw Asimo, I thought "Yeah, the U.S. has these -- they're called Mexicans." Fills the same economic role.

    85. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Politics is not history. You need to get out and learn a little more.

      It might frighten you if you could look outside yourself and see how doctrinaire and almost Stalinist your intellectual approach has become. Look beyond a framework of beliefs, and a set of parody representations of reality, i.e. your view of what the Roman Catholic Church is....

    86. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      That's also another piece of the puzzle. It's hard to stay competitive internationally, when [your employees demand higher/their employees are okay with lower] wages. This issue rose its head when GM & Chrysler started going under, comparing them to companies such as Toyota or Honda.

      An expansion on what you are saying is that US Labor views Automation from a completely antagonistic point of view. The Labor Bosses like keeping their membership dumb and busy doing rote tasks. American manufacturers face total opposition to updated methods from a labor force organized against any change or process improvement at all.

    87. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      So why is it that "lazy American worker" gets laid off from the Ford plant, then gets a job at the Honda plant and becomes "productive American worker?".

      The Honda plant is non-union. There isn't a union stiff interfering any time productivity-improving methods or new equipment is introduced.

    88. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by moortak · · Score: 1

      If it were unions you would think union hostile states would dominate productivity measures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal) They don't.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    89. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overpaid? The difference in wealth between the rich and poor has grown exponentially ever since the "Reagen Revolution". Sigh... why bother explaining the obvious to a corporatist.

    90. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      The secret is only in wrecking the environment and abusing your workers if you are in the cheap-ass consumer product market. Germany gets around that problem by producing high-quality, comparatively low-quantity goods as machining tools, scientific instruments, medical technology, power stations, pharmaceuticals and stuff like that. And, cars, of course. All the easily mass production goods we used to make (e.g. textiles in the region where I am from) are long since outsourced to Asia, too.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    91. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      As a German, I think you value us too highly - we have the same crappy mass culture and anti-intellectualism around here, our own share of numb-nuts reveling in their stupidity. Just have a look at our largest newspaper, the BILD-Zeitung. I didn't see much difference regarding the average citizen between my time working in the US and back home. Granted, I didn't exactly work in deep Redneckistan, but still...

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    92. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Phat_Tony · · Score: 1

      American machining manufacturers aren't just sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Among many, Hurco and Haas have been making similar 5-axis CNC machines with some combination fo B-Axis heads, rotary tables, and trunnion beds similar to the Daishin machine shown. Here's a video of a Hurco CNC making something of similar complexity, and here's a Haas making a turbine in one setup.

      The Daishin machine is marginally more impressive. It's also mislabeled in the video as a 5-axis machine, it's clearly got more - the linear Z and Y axes are on the head, the linear X is on the table, there's three. There's a rotary table, that's 4. Then the cutting head does a rotation on an axis on a 45 degree angle to the Z plane, allowing it to come down to cut with the cutter rotation concentric with the X axis. That's 5. And that's not accounting for at least 2 things the table is doing- it seems to also be on a 45 like the head, plus it's tilting on another axis. From the video it's hard to tell exactly, so much stuff is moving around, but it looks like a 7 axis machine. I'm not entirely sure they're doing anything with those 7 axes that couldn't be cut on a trunnion bed/rotary table 5-axis machine. But it sure looks awesome moving around.

      The most impressive thing in that video for me was the software integration of all those axes - they had so many strange axes moving around at once to produce those smooth curves. If that's highly automated from their CAD/CAM to produce that sort of program with low programmer time, that's what's really impressive. Also, I couldn't tell if this is just a show piece/prototype, or if they're actually selling these things now.

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      Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
    93. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Phat_Tony · · Score: 1

      Bridgeport makes beautiful dinosaurs. Nine out of ten knee mills these days are Bridgeport knock-offs/clones, but they're only for tool rooms, maintenance, rework, small job shops - any serious production these days is done on CNC machining centers, and Bridgeport is a tiny bit player in that market.

      Cincinnati ruled industrial milling for years, they were THE leader, the go-to company in the entire world from around 1900 well into the 1970's. I run a beautiful dinosaur- a 1970's Cincinnati Milacron 5-axis, 3-spindle gantry milling machine with a 120 foot long bed. In its day it would have people "oohing" and "ahing" more than that Daishin video.

      But calling either Bridgeport or Cincinnati a leader today would be grossly wrong - they both dominated their fields in the past, so thoroughly they helped to define them, and their ancient machines are of such high quality they're still running today, but they are now tiny niche players in the industry (Cincinnati having been purchased by MAG), and certainly NOT leading anything.

      --
      Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
    94. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      As a German, I think you value us too highly - we have the same crappy mass culture and anti-intellectualism around here, our own share of numb-nuts reveling in their stupidity.

      I'm not saying it's perfect over there, but it still seems to be better overall than over here in many ways. You're going to have numb-nuts just about anywhere you go (after all, there's still some neo-Nazis over there), but I've never heard of any serious number of Germans who believe the Earth is 6500 years old, whereas somewhere between 30 and 50% of Americans believe that, and the number is increasing. Moreover, check out your national productivity. Germany is the world's #2 exporter, pretty much neck-and-neck with China (and only barely in 2nd place). Considering that Germany has much less than 1/3 the population of the USA, that's quite an accomplishment. The USA, OTOH, doesn't export nearly as much stuff, and probably a lot of what it does export is low-value stuff like raw materials (such as coal), whereas Germany's exports are mainly very high-value things like machine tools, electronic test equipment, etc. I recently worked at Freescale, and one of the labs there had a lot of RF test equipment made in Germany by Rhode & Schwarz, for doing testing and development of RF semiconductors, such as those used in cable TV boxes, TVs, etc. A single piece of equipment typically cost $100,000. Stuff like that isn't made in China. America used to be the leader in that field with Tektronix and HP (now Agilent), but those (esp. Tek) are now waning with mismanagement. Of course, someone will probably point out that much of America's goods are consumed internally, but that's not much help; a giant trade deficit is a giant trade deficit, and at some point there's going to be an adjustment when other countries get tired of accepting our IOUs.

      Maybe you don't see much difference between average citizens (though I still think you missed out on all the flat-earthers; you were probably in one of the coastal states where you don't see too much of that), but I think it's pretty obvious you've managed to pick better leadership for your nation, and your corporations seem to run a lot better over the long term.

    95. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      WTF is your point? Are you trying to allege that the Catholic Church was actually a positive force during that time? If so, then you're insane. The Church is responsible for brutal suppression of any dissent, and instead of simply worrying about spirituality, it amassed an enormous amount of wealth and power, just like the modern-day cult Scientology tries to do, by conning people with religious stories into handing over all their money. Meanwhile, society took such a giant backwards step into feudalism that technology regressed, learning stopped, and no records were kept. Only a fool would ever try to argue that the Dark Ages (and pretty much everything up until the Renaissance) were anything but horrible. Our society would be 1000 years ahead of its present state if it weren't for the Dark Ages.

    96. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      You are probably correct in that we do not have the flat-earthers around here - and, true - I've been in California, and mostly in academic circles around there, so I didn't meet too many of those in the US. We have our own brand of idiots around here, though, and those are not the overt neo-nazis. On the economic side, our focus on export is not perfect either. Our economic policy neglects the German markets for export numbers, which hurts the local workers. On the topic of test equipment, Tektronix ain't the worst brand after all - while I worked at university here, we used Tektronix scopes, and they did their job quite well. Incidentally, I am in the patent business now, and the firm I am working with is doing some of the European applications for Tektronix network analyzers - they ain't dead yet, at least I hope so, as they are paying a bit of my paycheck :)

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    97. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We took Laertes' ridiculous admonition "to thine own self be true" and turned ourselves and our energies into the very worst of what we are as a nation.

      ...that would be Polonius' admonition to Laertes. :)

    98. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      An expansion on what you are saying is that US Labor views Automation from a completely antagonistic point of view. The Labor Bosses like keeping their membership dumb and busy doing rote tasks. American manufacturers face total opposition to updated methods from a labor force organized against any change or process improvement at all.

      What's interesting is that this isn't necessarily an inescapable consequence of labor unions. Germany has very strong unions, probably a lot stronger than America's, yet Germany is a manufacturing powerhouse and the world's #2 exporter.

      For some reason, we got stuck with corrupt and stupid labor union bosses, and other countries didn't.

    99. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      US: leading in "Andriod", a mobile OS.

      Not exactly. Android is based heavily on Linux, and uses the Linux kernel, which was developed by people from all around the world, and led by a guy from Finland.

    100. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but Germany has very strong labor unions, yet it's a manufacturing powerhouse.

      Of course, I've heard some pretty bad horror stories about how unions in the US have operated, stifling productivity. Maybe the Germans somehow figured out how to have unions without having them stifle productivity in stupid ways.

    101. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Competition. There's limited resources in the world, and those who lead get to enjoy higher standards of living than those who don't.

      If you don't mind living the way they do in Somalia, then be lazy and don't bother trying to lead in anything. But if you want to enjoy the standard of living that Germans or Japanese enjoy, then you might want to try excelling in something, the way they do in manufacturing.

    102. Re:Not to sound overly nationalist by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      When 3D machines are readily available and economical for home use, then these laws will be unenforceable, unless by that time we've had government-monitored cameras installed in our homes.

  5. Nice enough demo by HEbGb · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's a nice enough demo for a five-axis mill, but these are hardly new nor revolutionary in any way. These have been around for at least a decade, probably much longer.

    1. Re:Nice enough demo by Anonymous+Monkey · · Score: 1

      Down the block from my apartment their is a machine shop with about three of them. It's a prototyping shop that also makes parts for other manufactures. Watching the lathes go can be an amazing thing.

      --
      We are the Borg...
    2. Re:Nice enough demo by FauxReal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, robots need to get to Bicentennial Man skill levels.

    3. Re:Nice enough demo by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Indeed- but it's a very nice one, from the looks of it. I wouldn't mind having access to one of them.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    4. Re:Nice enough demo by rubycodez · · Score: 3, Informative

      6 axis, yep count 'em six, CNC mills have been around for over 25 years, my father's company sold one with over 10 meter table that was used to cut out propellers for submarines. they had another multi-axis one (don't remember how many) that had 40 meter long bed.

    5. Re:Nice enough demo by Shagg · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Making fairly intricate stuff out of billet aluminum for the automotive industry has been going on for a long time.

      Most of this stuff is made the same way as this demo. http://www.billetspecialties.com/subcategory.asp?cid=16

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    6. Re:Nice enough demo by camperdave · · Score: 1

      My dentist has one for carving dental crowns. He feeds it a few photos of the tooth that's being crowned, and selects the type of crown (molar, pre-molar, etc). He loads a cube of ceramic into the machine, starts it up, and 15-20 minutes later he's installing the crown.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    7. Re:Nice enough demo by A.+B3ttik · · Score: 1

      6? Fuck everything, we're doing 7.

    8. Re:Nice enough demo by WhiteDragon · · Score: 1

      My dentist has one for carving dental crowns. He feeds it a few photos of the tooth that's being crowned, and selects the type of crown (molar, pre-molar, etc). He loads a cube of ceramic into the machine, starts it up, and 15-20 minutes later he's installing the crown.

      My dentist has one too, but I'd say it's not quite as complex as this one. My dentist's machine consists of two bits moving in tandem (apparently single curved position axis each, but perhaps two axes per bit) with the workpiece on a rotatable table. I'd guess that qualifies as a 4-axis machine, but I'm not sure. Still, it's amazing to watch.

      --
      Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
    9. Re:Nice enough demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about this:

      Seven. Axis. Mill.

    10. Re:Nice enough demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck it. We're going 7-axis.

    11. Re:Nice enough demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. About two decades ago when I did my Mech Engineering degree, the dept had an old punch card driven CNC 4-axis machine, and that was good enough for (smart-arse) students to cut chains out of bars. I imagine there are issues coming up with shapes that really demonstrate the advantages in 5-axis machines. But yeah, simply another CNC mill in the long line of minor improvements over the last 4 decades. Not to say it ain't feckin nifty, and if they didn't set you back a big slice of a million or so, they'd be real cool things for playing with.

  6. Suit of Armor by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    You could create one awesome looking suit of armor with that.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Suit of Armor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if it were aluminum then I don't know how well it would actually work.

      When they say "carves metal like butter" they're usually referring to soft metals like aluminum. Meh, let me know when they get a machine that form steel like butter.

    2. Re:Suit of Armor by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Aluminum makes for crappy armor. Just ask the people inside of a Bradley AFV. Presumably you could retool this for working with harder metals, but armor tends to have very specific requirements that would likely make it impossible to machine like this. Unless you just want some replica medieval style armor for SCA events or something.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    3. Re:Suit of Armor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but what use would it be? When these machines inevitably achieve sentience and turn on us in a war of oily extermination, would you want to be using armour they can carve through like butter? I didn't think so. Be Safe: wear ceramic.

    4. Re:Suit of Armor by jgreco · · Score: 1

      If you aspire to be Tony Stark, yes... but AluminumMan kind of lacks that spark...

    5. Re:Suit of Armor by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I think he means for costume, and he is correct.

      Clearly he wants to make a suit of metal armor for walking into a modern battle~

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Suit of Armor by proxy318 · · Score: 1

      I figured this is what they used to build Terminators.

      --
      Saying your "phone ran out of batteries" is like saying your "car ran out of gas tanks".
    7. Re:Suit of Armor by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1
      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    8. Re:Suit of Armor by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If you aspire to be Tony Stark, yes... but AluminumMan kind of lacks that spark...

      The Fabulous Aluminium Man: just like Iron Man, but British and with lighter loafers.

    9. Re:Suit of Armor by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Harder metals aren't a problem, provided the correct tooling is used and the tool speed and feed rates are controlled appropriately.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    10. Re:Suit of Armor by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      If you wanted to make metal parts like that, it seems like it'd make a whole more sense to forge them than to mill them, because then you can better control the grain direction.

  7. So what? by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The Japanese company celebrated its 50th anniversary last year by using this machine to carve ... a full-scale motorcycle helmet out of one piece of aluminum. No breaks, no joints, the 5-Axis mill simply pivots and rotates to carve metal at some absurd angles.

    This has been possible for a very long time. I've seen 5, 6 and even virtual axis mills decades ago that could do this. The software is easier now and the machines have improved tolerances and speeds but the basic technology has been widely used for ages. Multi-axis CNC mills are absurdly useful but not even remotely new.

    In other words, nothing to see here. Moving on...

    1. Re:So what? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Nothing to see here is you are familiar with the CNC world. Otherwise it's pretty bitchen'

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  8. Aluminium Motorcycle Helmet, Not Impressed. by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

    I would be more impressed if it couls take a chunk of Aluminium and carve out a tinfoil hat with the same thickness as one made out of Reynoulds Aluminium foil. Then I would be impressed.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    1. Re:Aluminium Motorcycle Helmet, Not Impressed. by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Did you see how it carved a logo into it that had a different appearance but looked flush?

      That's it carving only a tiny, tiny bit in, probably in some crosshatch pattern to get the logo to stand out.

    2. Re:Aluminium Motorcycle Helmet, Not Impressed. by EdZ · · Score: 1

      Entirely possible for most milling machines. The problem would stem from supporting the foil whilst milling. If you milled out the hollow centre, filled the cavity with resin, then milled away the rest, you could probably do it just fine, as long as the resin bonded the the remaining material well enough.

    3. Re:Aluminium Motorcycle Helmet, Not Impressed. by HEbGb · · Score: 1

      Not at all difficult to do with any modern mill.

  9. automated sculptors by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Industrial robots are getting precise enough that they're less like dumb machines and more like automated sculptors producing artwork

    No, the engineers who built them and the programmers who programmed them are the sculptors, the robots are simply sophisticated knives. They're tools that humans use to create the sculpture.

    It isn't artificial intelligence, it's real. It's the programmer's intelligence.

    1. Re:automated sculptors by EdZ · · Score: 1

      It depends. If you're hacking out G-code by hand, then yes, every tool path is controlled by the sculptor. If you create a 3d model, then hand over all tooling control to a bit of software, you're a designer. The robot is essentially a sculptor then, deciding how to use the tool it's given to achieve a certain shape. You could argue that the machine isn't imagining the original design, but sculptors replicate existing designs all the time.

    2. Re:automated sculptors by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Who coded the robot to determine how to machine the piece?

      Sculptors used to imagine shapes and then carve that out of stone. These programmers are taking that a step further - by programming the computer to do that.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    3. Re:automated sculptors by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      And its not new.. we have been doing this sort of stuff for years in the automotive world. I'm sure other industries have too.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    4. Re:automated sculptors by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      How exactly is this any different? A sculptor takes the tools that he knows and the skills that he learned to turn something into a sculpture. You give the sculptor a picture, and he uses those skills to carve.

      The "programming" in this case is nothing more than the skill the computer has learned (or has been taught) on how to do something. You feed it the 3D image (what difference does it make if the image is 2D or 3D? In fact, I would imagine most sculptors would prefer 3D images themselves), and then it uses the skills it has to carve said object.

    5. Re:automated sculptors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, as an architecture student heavily involved in rapid prototyping and digital fabrication, I laugh at the ignorant assumption that these mills are somewhat "intelligent" or skilled. They are in essence quite "dumb" and unaware of the task they are performing, only after you spend hours programming and precisely telling the machine what to do, can they begin to produce acceptable work. One missplaced step or height parameter and the machine quite happily mills through the entire thing erroneously, whereas a human being or sculptor would realize the flaw in the instructions and remediate it according to his/her experience.

      These things are still a frigging glorified drill

  10. Really need open source CAM by dbc · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm starting to get involved in CNC machining (hobbyist level). One of the things that is quite clear is that there are really no good open source CAM packages. For that matter, open source 3D CAD has a long way to go, although I have great hopes for FreeCAD (not ready yet, but huge progress in the past year). If someone out there is looking for a challenge, take a look at 3D CAM, starting with 3-axis milling. Toolpath planning is *hard*. Your problem: Here is an arbitrary chunk of arbitrary metal. Here is a list of arbitrarily shaped tools. Here is the work envelop of your machine. Here is a table of chiploads that won't break the tools. Here is a 3D CAD file. Produce gcode. gcode that will not break the tools, not crash into fixtures, not crash the machine, and can start with roughing cuts to carve the initial block to something close, and plan finishing cuts that give you the desired surface finish at the end. A do your debugging where a "crash" can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars in broken tools and machinery.

    1. Re:Really need open source CAM by kidgenius · · Score: 1

      I've used a little bit of CAM software, and it was never *that* automated. You told it what tooling you wanted to use to create which features and it would calculate the path. So you gave the computer insight into the feeds/speed, cutter dimension, length, etc. And, the software didn't know about fixtures. That was up to the job of the machinist to make sure the fixtures weren't in the way (though, that wouldn't be *that* hard to tell a computer where the fixturing will be)

    2. Re:Really need open source CAM by langelgjm · · Score: 1

      As you're well aware, even with good software, nothing can replace an experienced operator. I used to work in manufacturing with a CNC machine, and there were lots of idiosyncracies of the machine and shop practices that I had to account for.

      This particular machine used a vacuum pump to hold the material down for cutting, which was usually fine, but the suction would be weaker around the edges and strongest in the center. The practical result was that I very quickly learned never to place small parts near the edges of the material, since they'd potentially move and either be damaged, or more dangerously, be thrown off the machine. Automatic nesting algorithms, at least the ones in the software I was using, were only so useful.

      Even though I no longer work there, I still occasionally send them a personal job, then come by a few days later to pick up the parts at material cost.

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    3. Re:Really need open source CAM by EdZ · · Score: 1

      How about EMC2?

    4. Re:Really need open source CAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to work for MDSI/Applicon. We thought we were pretty good at making tapes. At the time I left, the challenge was integrating the higher level machining cycles and getting bugs out. The problem with machining is not eliminating machinist, but giving them a tool that lets them machine the part more then the machine tool. You should not have to be a specialist in a particular machine to do your job. The software should have general functions that map to the particular m codes needed to do the job.

      BTW, g codes only tell you how to do an operation, linear interpolation vs circular interpolation etc. What you are talking about is the x, y and z codes. For five axis machines you also have the t and h codes (head and table angles).

      But what you could do is ask about abandoned CAM systems from companies that went out of business in the 1980's or 1990's. Who owns that software and could they be convinced that it might has well be given away?

    5. Re:Really need open source CAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not open source, but I use this http://www.machsupport.com/. It's pretty nice.

    6. Re:Really need open source CAM by DanielG42 · · Score: 1
      I entirely agree. EMC2 allows me to control my machine with open source software running on Ubuntu, but I have to fall back on MasterCAM to create the gcode properly.

      It would be great if we could get an open source CAM software to compliment it.

      --
      Daniel
    7. Re:Really need open source CAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FreeCAD is an interesting project indeed, but I am impressed by the progress the PythonOCC(.org) project is demonstrating!

    8. Re:Really need open source CAM by Georules · · Score: 1

      This is a difficult problem indeed. Knowing that they had to manually choose the toolpath plan makes this video much less impressive. A software that could automatically determine the most (or pretty good) efficient toolpath and also detect impossible structures to machine with the hardware provided would be impressive. This way a 3D modeler could simply press the "print" button, see if there are impossible details to machine, fix them, and then go get lunch while it works.

    9. Re:Really need open source CAM by GuyFawkes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You're right, I splashed the cash and bought.

      Mach3 CNC controller
      MeshCAM
      Rhino

      Let's say you have a small machine that has an XYZ envelope of 300mm a side, that's 27,000,000 millimetre cubes, or unique XYZ positions the tool and toolpath can follow.

      1mm precison is worthless, at 0.1 mm precision you just went up to 27,000,000,000 unique positions, at 0.01 mm precision you just went up to 27,000,000,000,000.

      You're probably not going to get a linear speed in excess of 1 metre second on anything even remotely hobby, 250 mm min is more like it...

      at 0.01 mm resolution that's 25,000 positions in 60 seconds, that's approx 417 a second

      we've got 27,000,000,000,000, so / 417 = 18 million hours to traverse all 27 x 10^12 points.

      even assuming you had that kind of time, your machine is burning electricity at several cents a kWh... do the math.

      So you can see how optimised tool paths, and so on are literally god when it comes to CNC.

      Sure, there are free OS alternatives to the stuff I paid for, but I don't have the time left to live, nor the inclination to pay the electric bill, that using the free OS alternatives requires.

      HTH etc

      --
      http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
    10. Re:Really need open source CAM by SWPadnos · · Score: 1

      There are some open source CAM programs, but none of them are really good enough to replace something like MasterCAM at this point.

      There's a list of programs on the linuxcnc.org wiki, here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam

      Incidentally, if you want to help finance the web hosting for this project, and you happen to need web hosting as well, use this link: http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?80098

      --
      - The Sigless Wonder
    11. Re:Really need open source CAM by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      1mm precison is worthless, at 0.1 mm precision you just went up to 27,000,000,000 unique positions, at 0.01 mm precision you just went up to 27,000,000,000,000.

      Having worked in a lab I appreciate the metric system. Having worked as a machinist I can also laugh at the metric system.

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    12. Re:Really need open source CAM by SWPadnos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You're right, I splashed the cash and bought.

      Mach3 CNC controller
      MeshCAM
      Rhino

      [snip the math and analysis]

      The resolution of the machine is irrelevant, it's the tool size that matters. If you have a 1/2" diameter end mill, you cut a 1/2" swath through the material. It makes no difference if you have 0.01 inch resolution or 0.00001 inch resolution, you'll still step over by about 1/2 inch when using that tool.

      So you can see how optimised tool paths, and so on are literally god when it comes to CNC.

      Yep, for production machining, optimized toolpaths are a very good thing. The common limiting factor for small machines though is spindle horsepower. The machine can only remove so much metal per hour, and that's directly proportional to the spindle horsepower. It varies with many factors (cutter material, cutter coating, cutter speed, coolant/lubricant, etc), but it's the thing that limits the depth of cut you can use for a given end mill. There's also no such thing as an "optimal path". There are many factors that determine what may be optimal in a given situation - surface finish (the look of it), surface roughness, tool life, machine rigidity, and more.

      Sure, there are free OS alternatives to the stuff I paid for, but I don't have the time left to live, nor the inclination to pay the electric bill, that using the free OS alternatives requires.

      I sure hope you're talking about non-optimal free CAM, because as it happens, the most capable machine controller available (for less than $5000) happens to be the open source one. I only put in the price limit because I hope that the vendors selling the more expensive controllers actually have some better features than EMC2 - I know what you have doesn't.

      --
      - The Sigless Wonder
    13. Re:Really need open source CAM by dbc · · Score: 1

      Good point about EMC2, it has Mach3 and the others well beaten. And I really think open source 3D CAD will get there in the not too distant future. It's bridging that gap with good gcode that is a difficult problem, and the longer I look at it the uglier it looks. Of course, for most hobbyists a highly optimized path isn't the point -- we aren't doing volume production on a Mazak where seconds count. But even just trying to drive a Tormach or a Fireball V90 with open source code, which are reasonable goals, I think, are difficult problems.

    14. Re:Really need open source CAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The resolution of the machine is irrelevant, it's the tool size that matters. If you have a 1/2" diameter end mill, you cut a 1/2" swath through the material. It makes no difference if you have 0.01 inch resolution or 0.00001 inch resolution, you'll still step over by about 1/2 inch when using that tool.

      Resolution is largely irrelevant, but accuracy can be critical. I have a benchtop CNC mill that will produce cuts good to about 0.003" (not too shabby), though its resolution (0.000025") is two orders finer.

      I don't understand your comment about tool size. The required accuracy depends on what you are building, not your choice of end mill. Frequently I will opt for a larger - and therefore more rigid - end mill when I need accuracy. Especially for deep cuts.

      The common limiting factor for small machines though is spindle horsepower.

      That's not my experience with the "hobbyist" mills OP brougt up. Mini- and micro-mills often lack the rigidity needed to run at high horespower, resulting in chatter if you try to go too fast. In other contexts, "small machine" might refer to a Bridgeport or similar knee mill, where your focus on spindle power makes sense.

      I sure hope you're talking about non-optimal free CAM, because as it happens, the most capable machine controller available (for less than $5000) happens to be the open source one.

      I'm pretty sure he was talking about the toolpath planning software, not the controller.

    15. Re:Really need open source CAM by dbc · · Score: 1

      EMC2 is excellent, but it is machine control software. Eats gcode, drives motors. The piece that is missing is the CAM software that goes between a CAD package and a machine control package like EMC2 -- something to *make* the gcode from a 3D CAD file.

    16. Re:Really need open source CAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A half inch wide path carved into the metal a quarter of an inch to the right of where you want it makes a huge difference in outcomes. Only a fool or someone working on things less complex than a paperweight would move their path based solely on the width of the cutting head.

    17. Re:Really need open source CAM by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Good luck, not possible for complex parts, there is currently a very high level of involvement necessary to make complex parts on a CNC. Simple parts however can be automated to a point.

  11. Obligatory by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

    Well I, for one, welcome our robot metal-sculpting overlords.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    1. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really obligatory when it was said 23 minutes ago?

      http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1613058&cid=31791604

  12. It depends on what's valued in a culture by jet_silver · · Score: 1

    "Leadership" might not translate fast enough to cash in the US to look as though it's worth having. The US metric up to the last year or so, which I hope is beginning to fade, is "can we make our money back on this in a short time?" and the closure of labs like Bell and Xerox PARC reflect this bottom-line thinking. Germans and Japanese alike see nothing "better" in the challenges of design than in those of manufacturing so they have good engineers doing both, and they think longer-term. It's less difficult to sell the leadership argument to their management. The French don't even appear in the contest and that's because all their bright people - who are legion - are theoreticians, they see something not quite nice, or grubby, or something in manufacturing and manufacturing engineers are seen as lower life-forms. If the French could get over that they might place.

    The Chinese won't lead, ever, with stolen IP and that's how they do business. They have advanced recipes but when they break, there is no theoretical backing for it. They'll manufacture things a couple lamellae behind the cutting edge until they get over that. Once the ROW catch on you will see the Chinese doing truly wacky things because they will be stealing poisoned IP.

    1. Re:It depends on what's valued in a culture by stonewallred · · Score: 1

      Explain what you mean by ROW and the idea of poisoned IP please.

    2. Re:It depends on what's valued in a culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ROW = rest of the world

      And poisoned IP referes to debacles such as the bad capacitor runs from the '90s which were based on stolen Japanese formulas which didn't include the anticorrosion agents - because they knew their IP was being stolen.

    3. Re:It depends on what's valued in a culture by X0563511 · · Score: 1
      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    4. Re:It depends on what's valued in a culture by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Whoops. We love broken anchor tags.

      Well, the link is still valid.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  13. great way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...how to make 10kg product with only 190kg of waste metal !

  14. useful for the avout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can it create clock spare-parts ?

  15. Impressive but not new by smellsofbikes · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are scads of youtube videos of multi-axis machining, from impellers to V8 engine blocks, that are several years old. But, way before youtube, in the 1970's, Japanese nine-axis milling machines helped Soviet designers make submarine propellers vastly quieter, meaning subs like the Soviet Typhoon-class were roughly as quiet as American subs had been for a while. The military and export implications of multi-axis milling machine technology was mentioned in US Congress debates at the time: In 1983-1984 the Japanese firm Toshiba sold sophisticated, nine axis milling equipment to the Soviets along with the computer control systems, which were developed by Norwegian firm Kongsberg Vaapenfabrik. U.S Navy officials and Congressmen announced that this technology enabled the Soviet submarine builders to produce more accurate and quieter propellers. So this is by no means new, but it sure is pretty.

    --
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  16. Transparent aluminum for the visor by pem · · Score: 1

    Did they glue the transparent aluminum to the regular stuff before carving, or can they treat it to make it transparent later?

    1. Re:Transparent aluminum for the visor by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Hmm, transparent aluminium actually exists. It is prehaps more commonly known as saphire.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:Transparent aluminum for the visor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      alumina != aluminium

  17. That's all well and good... by nadamucho · · Score: 3, Funny

    but will it blend?

  18. Very nice. But not that unusual. by Animats · · Score: 3, Informative

    Very nice. But not that unusual for a modern machine tool. Here's a Matsura mill doing much the same thing. It's the software that's interesting.

    The current generation of machining software finally has constructive solid geometry that really works. The software can predict where the surface of the work is, as material is removed from it, and can reliably calculate clearances to the tools. I'm very impressed. This really works for arbitrary convex objects now. I've worked on collision detection enough to understand how hard that is.

    Coordinating the multiple axes isn't the hard part. That's just relative transformation matrices, which has been done in computer graphics for many years. (Although the newer robot and machining systems understand some of the machine dynamics, and consider inertia. That's new.) It's the modeling of the surface as it changes that's hard.

    This is very expensive software, but it's worth it. You need both HyperMill and either SolidWorks or Inventor. You design the part in SolidWorks or Inventor, then use HyperMill to generate the commands for the CNC machine. Total cost is upwards of $10,000. The CNC machine tool itself is relatively dumb; it's just running previously computed moves. The newer machine tools have software to display the 3D model and the tool, so you can check the planned moves against the actual ones when setting up.

    Nobody machines consumer products out of solid blocks of metal except as a demo, of course. It takes hours to machine something that can be made in seconds by stamping or molding. Machine tools are used mostly to make stamping and molding dies, and one-off parts. Also, even in modest volumes, you don't start with plain blocks of metal. You cast or forge a blank and machine off the excess.

    1. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by BitHive · · Score: 1

      Nobody machines consumer products out of solid blocks of metal

      I'm pretty sure my unibody macbook pro is a consumer product.

    2. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Very nice. But not that unusual for a modern machine tool. Here's a Matsura mill doing much the same thing.

      Heck, at about 1:00 into the video you'll see something that looks like a submarine propeller - which were being machined on six axis machines back in the 80's. (In fact, there was a huge flap when Toshiba sold the fuSSR such a machine in 1987.)
       

      Also, even in modest volumes, you don't start with plain blocks of metal. You cast or forge a blank and machine off the excess.

      Um, a blank *is* a plain block of metal. (Although one made to specification.)

    3. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by Chirs · · Score: 1

      I think by "block" he meant "rectangular prism" as opposed to a "blank" which can be arbitrarily complex.

    4. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Nobody machines consumer products out of solid blocks of metal except as a demo, of course.

      My MacBook Pro begs to differ.

      Also, even in modest volumes, you don't start with plain blocks of metal. You cast or forge a blank and machine off the excess.

      Not all the time. Not all parts can be forged that much to make it worthwhile and casting is out of the question if you're using something like 6061 aluminium alloy.

    5. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er...
      Apple? /dons aluminium helmet

    6. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Yes, well it's most likely cast and then has a finishing machining operation applied to it.

    7. Re:Very nice. But not that unusual. by BC+Guy · · Score: 1

      Nobody machines consumer products out of solid blocks of metal except as a demo, of course. It takes hours to machine something that can be made in seconds by stamping or molding. Machine tools are used mostly to make stamping and molding dies, and one-off parts. Also, even in modest volumes, you don't start with plain blocks of metal. You cast or forge a blank and machine off the excess.

      MOTORSPORTS.
      billet parts exist everywhere and are often the best and most desired.
      most of the rest of your argument is accurate, though. please don't over-reach.

  19. We're safe for now. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I thought it was making a T-800 skull.

    And I almost bought a one-way ticket to Japan to save man kind.

  20. Carves metal like butter? by p1ckk · · Score: 1

    Steel on toast for breakfast, yum!

  21. Motorcycle helmet? Pah! by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

    Its would've been a much cooler (and scarier) demo if they'd carved out a Cylon head instead of a motorcycle helmet.

  22. I just got a hardon for hardware! by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    This has never happened to me before (for a machine ore piece of hardware).
    That helmet is beautiful, but the machine that made it is sexy. I want two. NOW! one on each side of me.

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  23. Bender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bite my shiny metal ass!

  24. Looks good, but .... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ..., how accurate is it? I've got a project on my 'to do' list which involves cutting a worm and hobbing its mating gear so that it will have an error of better than 5 arc seconds.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  25. Aerospace by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ever see gas turbines machined? Goes for cars too. A lot of very cool and useful things wouldn't be possible without awesome machine tools. The physics and math behind these things is pretty amazing too.

  26. Now sew me a shirt by ISoldat53 · · Score: 1

    If you want to start a revolution, get one of these to sew a shirt.

  27. about 5-axis milling machines by mbkennel · · Score: 1

    The USA had these sophisticated machines for a long time (decades) though probably without the current level of software.

    They were considered critical national security technology because their primary use was milling components for advanced nuclear weaponry. The specific shapes and ability to form these unusual shapes required for the physics unhindered by manufacturing constraints was considered an essential capability.

    No doubt these machines illegal to export and probably restricted from commercial use.

    Also they had to collect all of the shavings, because they were milling nice stuff like plutonium, uranium, beryllium and high explosives.

    1. Re:about 5-axis milling machines by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The USA had these sophisticated machines for a long time (decades) though probably without the current level of software.

      Yes, I had to use G-codes to write cutting programs for one in the late 1980s. Back then there were crappy lisp scripts that did a bit of a job to turn AutoCAD drawings into G-codes but it didn't work every time.

      No doubt these machines illegal to export and probably restricted from commercial use.

      I think you have them confused with something else, especially since the one I used was not in the USA although there was some NASA funded work going on in the same building. I also have a sneaking suspicion that it was made by Hitachi anyway.

  28. Amazing! Thanks for posting. by richardkelleher · · Score: 1

    This is so far beyond the simple CNC (read paper tape here) controlled mills we has access to when I started collage. Absolutely amazing. Watching it tilt both the product and the mill in different directions while the mill cutter was inserted into a cavity struck me as a little scary. It looked like it was going to snap the tool off. The compute horse power in this thing must be huge and the designers must have had a blast with developing this product.

  29. Yeah but, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    does he carve butter like metal as well?

  30. News? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A std 5-axis mill doing what it should do.

  31. zzzz... wake me up when they can machine these: by advocate_one · · Score: 1
    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  32. Machine Pr0n by schlick · · Score: 1

    Sexy. Yes this is not really impressive unless you find this sort of thing impressive. (I do). Unique? Not really. Difficult to duplicate? Hardly. Fun to watch? Definitely!

    This subtractive method of production is pretty old. When we can actually produce in quantity parts with this same precision from a medium in an additive fashion we will have accomplished innovation.

    --
    "It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
  33. The iron is Deckel-Maho the software is Seki by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

    If you look closely in the video, you'll see Deckel-Maho on the machine. It is a German machine. Seki is providing the CAM software. At most, Seki is providing the control, but it looks like Siemens is the default control for Deckel-Maho.

    http://www.dmgnippon.com/query/internet/v3/igpdf.nsf/fa8158c4d08f8585c12576a9005695f3/$file/mailing_dmu_hsc_us.pdf

    1. Re:The iron is Deckel-Maho the software is Seki by paving-slab · · Score: 1

      We have a Deckel-Maho 5 axis machine at work and it uses Heidenhain control software, whch we also have on our Bridgeport 3 axis millers and Bridgeport 5 axis grinders.

      Just in case your interested.

    2. Re:The iron is Deckel-Maho the software is Seki by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Deckel-Maho machines are pretty amazing.

  34. Machined Consumer Products by Burning1 · · Score: 1

    Nobody machines consumer products out of solid blocks of metal except as a demo, of course. It takes hours to machine something that can be made in seconds by stamping or molding. Machine tools are used mostly to make stamping and molding dies, and one-off parts. Also, even in modest volumes, you don't start with plain blocks of metal. You cast or forge a blank and machine off the excess.

    That's not entirely correct. Machined parts are actually relatively common in the motorcycling industry for a number of reasons.

    - Often the part is a one off, or small batch product as you mentioned.

    - Billet parts are in demand for their perceived beauty, or value.

    - Often, machined parts are used for their high strength to weight ratio.

    Some of the following machined products are widely available in the industry:

    Upper and lower tripple clamps
    Hand Controls
    Foot Controls
    Engine Covers

    Engine covers are an especially interesting case. Most modern cast aluminum covers are very lightweight and thin. In the event of a crash, they often wear through, leaking oil (on an active race-track,) permitting dirt into the engine, and rendering the vehicle inoperative.

    Many race organizations now require aftermarket covers on many bikes.

    A lot of silly products, such as reservoir caps are also available as CNC machined parts.

    1. Re:Machined Consumer Products by Chirs · · Score: 1

      Billet parts are actually lower strength than forged parts. This is why parts are often forged to rough shape and then machined to finished dimensions.

    2. Re:Machined Consumer Products by Burning1 · · Score: 1

      That makes sense. For instance, while there are plenty of aftermarket cast and forged rims, I don't recall seeing any billet machined rims on the market.

  35. Wait, the software is USA by johnny+cashed · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mis-read the article. I'm not sure what Daishin Seiki actually does, looks like a prototype shop. They use hyperMill (tm) from Open Mind Technologies http://www.openmind-tech.com/.

    So it is basically Daishin Seiki's demo of what they are capable of with a Deckel-Maho (German) machine and hyperMill (US)CAM software.

  36. Dooh, the software is from a German company too. by johnny+cashed · · Score: 2, Informative

    Granted, they appear to be multi-national.

    http://www.openmind-tech.com/en/the_cam_company.html

    I'm lost as to why Daishin Seki is getting credit here, other than a poor write up on someone's blog and a cool demo.

    And on a personal note, I need to get my reading comprehension checked, or check my meds...

  37. Why is this impressive? by Hasai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A helmet?

    About five years ago at Oshkosh, Williams International was showing-off a compressor turbine hub assembly for their EJ-2 engine. It was milled from a single piece of metal; hub, compressor blades, everything. One piece.

    A 'helmet.' Pbbbbbttttt. . . .

    --

    Regards;

    Hasai

    1. Re:Why is this impressive? by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 2, Informative

      The environmental control system on the F-16 contains a bowling-ball-sized turbo (including hot and cold side + housing) with both the turbine and the compressor milled from solid stock. These have been in use since the 70's.

      This is a very rough, very imprecise, and much less complex version of what I'm talking about:
      http://www.flat4online.co.uk/catalog/images/64c0_1.JPG

      I took special note of that particular assembly because as far as I have seen, it is the most complex machined part on the entire aircraft (minus the engine itself, which is in a league of its own). I recently had the pleasure of stripping an entire aircraft, so I've seen what there is to see.

      The technology that I find fascinating is water-jet cutting. Here's a great video of a 5-axis machine cutting an impeller of some sort:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jm4_HikMqk&feature=related
      Start watching at around 2:30

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    2. Re:Why is this impressive? by TheKidWho · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's nothing... This is impressive, they're practically printing steel parts.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq-JYKG7TQc&feature=related

    3. Re:Why is this impressive? by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 1

      That is pretty cool, but I'm having trouble figuring out the advantages of this process over a simple cnc mill. You'll get less wasted material, but with an order of magnitude of extra complexity. I guess I'd just have to see it in person.

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    4. Re:Why is this impressive? by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Well, it becomes easy to make parts that have undercuts in them. Also one simply runs the part geometry through a program, the actual CNC programming is significantly easier. Also, that company specifically uses that technology to do some cool stuff like embed RFID tags or such directly into the parts which are not removable.

  38. Mandelbulb mayhem by Twinbee · · Score: 1

    Impressive stuff. Their next project now can be the infinitely detailed surface of the Mandelbulb:

    http://www.skytopia.com/project/fractal/mandelbulb.html

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  39. $10K for software is cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if it saves 10% of the time of a $100k/yr machinist or tool programmer. And those packages do a LOT better than that. $100k for the software would probably be economically sound, except that the mfr would have to figure out a way to sell it in pieces, because $100k capital investment is pretty steep for something that you can't easily repossess or sell at auction.

  40. automated teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or the mathematician that informed the programmer. Or the teacher that taught either. Or the hack that built upon an idea. Or the maverick who first chipped stone. Or the second maverick that observed and copied. Or the high tech black slab that eventually resulted. Or the promethian lesson the slab eventually imparts to some clever observer.

    It's information all the way down, son. Consider it a backup strategy.