More Evidence For Steam Games On Linux

SheeEttin writes "Back in November 2008, Phoronix reported that Linux libraries appeared in the Left 4 Dead demo, and then in March, Valve announced that Steam and the Source engine were coming to Mac OS X. Now, Phoronix reports that launcher scripts included with the (closed beta) Mac version of Steam include explicit support for launching a Linux version."

Comments

If it comes

[runyonave]

Then full respect for valve. Though they lost some respect for their shoddy PS3 ports.

Re:If it comes

[Narishma]

You mean the shoddy PS3 ports they didn't do?

Re:If it comes

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the shoddy PS3 ports they authorized.

Re:If it comes

[Dexy]

You mean the shoddy PS3 ports they authorized once, realised how shoddy they were and then never touched again?

Re:If it comes

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that is a fuck-up.

Re:If it comes

[colesw]

That they would have signed off on.

Re:If it comes

[Inconexo]

I'm pretty sure you are all talking about the same PS3 ports.

Re:If it comes

[HermMunster]

Good for them. 50-100 million users world-wide (and growing) is a big market to sell to.

Re:If it comes

[vuffi_raa]

maybe if they did it instead of whining about the ps3 architecture ad handing the code to someone else it wouldn't have been so shoddy

Steam on Linux

[L4t3r4lu5]

This is an indication of support for the Steam distribution platform, and some Valve games on Linux. Good luck getting EA to build Linux binaries for their games, because Steam doesn't do that for you.

Good on Valve for going this way, and maybe it's the push big publishers need to start telling devs to create native Linux binaries, but don't think for a moment that that this means all Steam games will run natively on Linux.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Jazzbunny]

Well EA already pledged support for MeeGo platform so it's not that far fetched idea.

Re:Steam on Linux

[sznupi]

OTOH what Steam could provide is keeping known versions of Linux libs (hey, that includes Winelib ;) ), making things much simpler. With the amount of control Valve perhaps has...who knows, perhaps many games ("simpler" ones at the beginning) could be semi-automatically adapted to included version of Wine, too.

Re:Steam on Linux

[EyelessFade]

I only hope the Half Life franchise will.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Techman83]

It's not really that far fetched, Picasa is one example and there are many other applications that come prepackaged with wine.

Re:Steam on Linux

[L4t3r4lu5]

I run WoW in WINE, and with very reasonable results (I get some visual artefacts, but only single frames of some incorrect polygon shapes). If Valve were working on bundling custom WINE launchers for each game... That might work.

Re:Steam on Linux

[T Murphy]

Good luck getting EA to build Linux binaries for their games

No duh. Everyone knows malware won't run on Linux.

Re:Steam on Linux

[L4t3r4lu5]

Why do you think rootkits are called rootkits and not Adminkits?

Re:Steam on Linux

[gman003]

They'd also be distributing the Linux ports of id and Epic games. A bunch of indie games, too.

Re:Steam on Linux

[DrXym]

This is an indication of support for the Steam distribution platform, and some Valve games on Linux. Good luck getting EA to build Linux binaries for their games, because Steam doesn't do that for you.

I don't see why it couldn't. They could licence and bundle one of the Wine libs that exist for running Windows games on Linux and Mac and make the experience completely transparent to the end user. Games would have to be tested & certified of course, but other than that it wouldn't require EA or anyone else to especially support Linux any more than they do right now.

Re:Steam on Linux

[PopeRatzo]

Everyone knows malware won't run on Linux.

Oh, it'll run, but you've got to give it permission.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Sycraft-fu]

Ya that's the real problem. I mean while Steam and Impulse and so on are cool, currently they are not the be-all, end-all in games, or even the biggest sales channel. Retail is still where the most games are sold. So it isn't like the problem with games on Linux was that the distribution channel was closed to Linux, though the games could be available. The problem is that the games themselves aren't being ported to Linux.

While Steam on Linux certainly wouldn't hurt Linux gaming, I'm unconvinced it would really help it. The reason game studios say they don't port their games to Linux has never been centered around distribution. After all, they could very easily just include the install files in both formats on the CDs had they wanted to. Their concerns seem to be mostly a very small market, and also a market that is very much centered around not paying for software. Also some developers, like iD, have said that the OpenGL drivers in Linux aren't acceptable for high end game features, that only the closed source nVidia ones have the features needed.

Regardless, I don't think this will change much, if it really happens (remember it is mostly speculation now).

Re:Steam on Linux

[Lumpy]

Because the journalists that coined the phrase were too stupid to know what it meant?

This term came from the same bunch of idiots that gave us "blogging" and "blogosphere" "web 2.0" and "podcasting" that we are now forever stuck with because they are trendy and catchy...

Rooting a box means gaining control of the root account. rootkits were typically a kit of tools you used to root a box, to get that root password or escalate your login to root privileges. . What we see as rootkits today are NOT rootkits. They are simply malware that used a bug to get in and run and then they hide themselves. Something that is NOT NEW and has been running around in computing for a very long time.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Lumpy]

It's also a market not centered around playing games. 90% of all linux installs are for work NOT gaming and entertainment. Sorry I dont want to run crysis on my servers or my phone system.

It's also why you dont see games released for windows Server 2008.

Crysis 4 - now with MS-SQL enterprise support!

Re:Steam on Linux

[TheKidWho]

No, you're all wrong.

This is an indication of Steam for Android.

Re:Steam on Linux

[L4t3r4lu5]

Yes, but to get root access... That's not a Windows term, is it. Root is the Admin account on Unix-style systems, including Linux.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam is cool, Impulse is a throughly bad knock off.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I rather think it's an indication of trolltalk.

Re:Steam on Linux

[h00manist]

Everyone knows malware won't run on Linux.

Oh, it'll run, but you've got to give it permission.

No, it's because the malware programmers have little motivation to create software for the 1% of computers that have more qualified admins. If linux reaches 99% of users, suddenly it will have all kinds of software for it which run very well, hordes of people looking for exploits, etc - malware. MacOS is getting more popular, soon it will start having trouble, I'm sure. Market shares are at http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

Re:Steam on Linux

[binarylarry]

Valve should partner with Canonical and work with them to get a first class Ubuntu release working.

Canonical could put Steam in their official partner repo for closed source stuff like Adobe's software.

You hear me Gabe, contact Mark Shuttleworth at Ubuntu and lets get this rolling!

Re:Steam on Linux

[somersault]

Read his first sentence again a few times.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Razalhague]

And yet Impulse is infinitely better than Steam because you don't need to run Impulse in order to run games you've bought via Impulse.

Re:Steam on Linux

[TheKidWho]

Really? You think people don't play games on their Linux based mobile phones?

Re:Steam on Linux

[MZeora]

Funny story - true story. You buy the retail box, then upload the Key to Steam and download and install that way. So really once Steam gets some proper Linux support for their games (through testing as mentioned by others by the various means)

As a full time Linux user. I for one welcome the advance of having Steam run on Linux. Since that'll take from the fan boys of not having the gaming abilities. Linux CAN in fact be a all purpose desktop. Just because it's naturally born as a Server OS doesn't mean it can't be brought to the masses at large, just like everything else it takes time.

Which is why I work hard at my bug reports on my desktop and laptop to help get a Linux Desktop to become a reality. I even suggest based on my test bed editing and compiling of tools that are breaking. (in a VM, but still it counts if it's not a hardware direct issue and if the devs aren't complete dicks)

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

True. But I think you could say about 90% of Windows PCs will never play a high end game either. You have to account for all the grandmothers that run Windows too.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the client side. On server side linux and windows switch. Where's the score of malware for linux server stuff?

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

The script shown in the article mentioned linux32 not linux ARM. Whatever it's for, it's not primarily for phones.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Yvanhoe]

Yeah. I'll keep my system open, thank you very much.

Re:Steam on Linux

[rwa2]

I'm pretty excited about this... there's been a lot of pretty bad news in the past couple years regarding Linux gaming... the current version of UT was promised a Linux port which never arrived, EVE gave up on their crappy Linux port (likely because it actually ran pretty well under wine), and id Software of all people has made menacing threats about future Linux support.

I've started playing a lot of Valve games lately, and now find it hard to go back to some of the other FPSs I've played before. The Steam community feature actually has me enjoying the social interaction, rather than dreading nettards. Steam succeeded in actually getting me to spend money on games again (even though lately I've taken to purchasing games on DVD from Amazon since sometimes they're cheaper and I can play different games on different computers when my kids are tying up one of the Steam logins).

My current Linux server is a lot more powerful than my old Linux server that was repurposed as a gaming PC... when I bought it it was great for Tremulous and the various Wolfenstein 2 MP and UT2003 and EVE (though I stopped paying monthly for it) at the time, and then it just seemed like Linux gaming hit a brick wall. But here's hoping for a generation of geeky titles based on the Half Life / Portal / L4D franchises leading a resurgence!

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about that? It's a non issue invented by Shitdock to market their product. Impulse's library is a bunch of shitty wizardworksesque titles and DESKTOP SOFTWARE.

Impulse doesn't even matter. It's a retarded product from a retarded company.

Re:Steam on Linux

[aBaldrich]

If you logged in, it would take a bit less for your comment to reach +5

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize this now means all of valve's games will work flawlessly? No tweaking wine and the 20% performance hit of translating directx into opengl? This is HUGE. Plus you can get a fair comparison of performance of a windows game vs the linux native version.

Re:Steam on Linux

[edmicman]

sudo BanzaiBuddy

See, it works!

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he doesn't think that. He's talking about the desktop, obviously.

Re:Steam on Linux

[elwin_windleaf]

Sure, most games won't run natively just yet - only games based on Valve's source engine.

But when I'm on Steam (and I own dozens and dozens of games, put out by several different publishers), 99% of the time I'll be playing a Valve game. I currently have 300+ hours racked up in Team Fortress 2 alone.

If I can format my Windows gaming partition, and only play Valve games on Linux, I'd say it's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make. I suppose Valve will be the only publisher to get my purchases from now on.

Re:Steam on Linux

[silanea]

Do you see Steam and Source based games coming to mobile phones any time soon? He is obviously talking about a different market, namely desktop games.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

...that we are now forever stuck with because they are trendy and catchy...

It might have been worse; we could have been stuck with terms that were neither trendy nor catchy. Er... or could we?

Re:Steam on Linux

[Enderandrew]

You don't need to license Wine as it is freely available for redistribution under the GPL. When Sierra/Vivendi re-released many of their classic adventure games, they came bundled with Dosbox to make the games work. They didn't have to license Dosbox, as it is GPL. They could simply redistribute it.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Enderandrew]

With the Mac OS port, it isn't just the Steam client, but also the Source engine. All the Source-engine games are ported. With a Linux port, expect to see all the Source titles avaiable. Will every Steam game be available in Linux? No, but it would be a new channel for commercial Linux games to be sold.

That is always a step in the right direction.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Mr. DOS]

I've started playing a lot of Valve games lately, and now find it hard to go back to some of the other FPSs I've played before. The Steam community feature actually has me enjoying the social interaction, rather than dreading nettards.

Indeed. TF2 is the only multiplayer game through which I've made online friends (or at least acquaintances). The combination of team-based gameplay and built-in voice chat (along with good server browser that makes coming back to the same server again and again easy) makes it highly conducive to that sort of thing in a way unlike no other game I've ever seen.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

"rootkits were typically a kit of tools you used to root a box, to get that root password or escalate your login to root privileges."
And then to hide that fact and destroy any evidence of your actions. Oh wait, that is what rootkits today are doing.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you still key in your games with the front panel? ;)

Something is ALWAYS running in the background.

Re:Steam on Linux

[DarenN]

I must disagree - availability of games is a major reason why linux on the desktop hasn't taken off. It's certainly the only reason I have a windows install at all.
At this point, I buy most of my games through Steam, simply because it has the best offerings of all the electronic distribution channels. The only thing missing from it is some kind of family account that lets you share your games with more than one login. Having it manage patching is dead handy, it's a one stop place for all games, and it allows unlimited downloads so if you lose a partition or your computer blows up, just log in and download again.

Steam praise aside, it is difficult to get people to use Linux for many reasons, but with distributions like Ubuntu it's hardly ease of use that is the major barrier anymore. Most personal e-mail accounts are online now, so it comes down (for the majority of the market) to office apps and games. PC gaming may be less popular now, but if a large proportion of the Steam library of games was available on Linux, you can encourage the younger crowd to use it. They'll be more comfortable with it, and over time that translates into more demand.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

WHOOOSH

EA = Malware.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve doesn't even need to be the one to do this. Most of the "Mac" games on the market (including all of EA's games as near as I can tell) are just the Windows games wrapped in Cider, TransGaming's proprietary fork of Wine.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Joe Snipe]

Are you saying Linux Steam is all vapor?

Re:Steam on Linux

[rawler]

I play Company Of Heroes through Steam under Wine. The suckiest part of that experience is Steam itself, which is buggy under all wine-versions I've tested. (Problems with GUI, web-browser-parts works poorly, and sometimes input-focus gets completely screwed up).

I think Steam could have lot to win by pairing up with, say Crossover, and publishing known-working games for Linux under Crossover. (And of course native Linux Games as well).

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

"If linux reaches 99% of users...." all computers with linux on it will explode. Because fort knox is just as easy to break in to as an unlocked car in a bad neighbourhood, and the only reason it isn't being broken into on a daily basis is that 99% of criminals don't know where it is. There isn't, for instance, a wikipedia article detailing it's exact location at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Knox

Re:Steam on Linux

[Captain Splendid]

Absolutely seconded. TF2 is one of the best games I've seen in a while for that. It probably also helps that the game lends itself to a less 'hardcore' FPS audience as well.

Re:Steam on Linux

[DrXym]

I'm not talking about vanilla Wine. I'm talking about versions that have been specifically designed to support gaming such as Cedega or Crossover. Steam could licence one of those and bundle it in with the Steam version of the client. When the game launches it does so through the compatibility layer. To the Mac / Linux user it would be completely transparent but would allow them to benefit from a huge number of Windows games.

Re:Steam on Linux

[geekoid]

They could create a framework to emulate MS system on Linux.

Yes it's a performance hit, but consider that most machine coming out today have more power then games use anyways.

Similar to how Doom originally did it. It effectivly created its own OS and ran in that; which was on top of DOS.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Sycraft-fu]

Source Engine doesn't get you much though. If Valve ports all their games to Linux you get Halflife 1 and 2 and expansions, TF2, L4D 1 and 2, Portal, and Counterstrike. Those are the only Valve Source titles. Now there are other titles based on Source, but they would require porting by the individual companies. That the core engine can run on a new OS doesn't mean the game ports itself. So the companies who released those games would have to. Even then, it's not all that many. There are about 20 non-Valve games made with Source, though of those only about 15 are commercial releases, the rest are in development or on hold.

Do remember that major game engines have had Linux versions and it hasn't helped all that much. Unreal Engine 2 and 2.5 both had Linux versions, and indeed UT2003 and UT2004, Epics games showcasing it, have Linux versions. However, despite having around 100 games made with it, few if any of them have Linux versions.

Re:Steam on Linux

[lena_10326]

It's pedantic posts like these that really put a buzz kill on jokes. Let this be a lesson to all: uber-geeks are not funny. (Not even slightly.)

Re:Steam on Linux

[geekoid]

And todays rootkits are the same, it's just all done in code.

BTW root is a UNIX term, not windows. It started on UNIX system and by people who where around long before the people who gave us blogging, etc . . .

If I am not mistaken, the first live one was against Sun OS, info.

Re:Steam on Linux

[geekoid]

It's what people like to say why it hasn't taken off.I suspect it's actually marketing, availability,and needing to do work at home.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome this, and if it happens can't wait to see if there is any impact. The last major push to do this failed because very few people bought the product, despite many people claiming they on have windows for games.

Your experience is irrelevant.

Steam has some pretty serious issues. I refuse to pay more then 'half price' for any game because of the risk.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'Linux Steam' Distro.

In fact, if they are going to support linux, that would be a great way to gain momentum.

Re:Steam on Linux

[geekoid]

And why do you think Android is only for phones?

Why do you think Android is just ARM?

Do you think?

Re:Steam on Linux

[Kjella]

I was under the impression that you first found an exploit, then installed a rootkit. Even the oldest rootkits I've heard of was a set of modified unix tools so the system administrator couldn't see rouge processes and secretly gave the attacker root access. If the original meaning was just a bunch of exploits, good riddance to such a useless word. At least the current meaning is useful and not easy to express in any other way.

Re:Steam on Linux

[shutdown -p now]

So long as they provide official support for that, why should we care as end users? If a game is running flawlessly on Linux, then it does just that - and I don't care if it's originally written in C64 BASIC.

Re:Steam on Linux

[shutdown -p now]

Because the journalists that coined the phrase were too stupid to know what it meant?

This term came from the same bunch of idiots that gave us "blogging" and "blogosphere" "web 2.0" and "podcasting" that we are now forever stuck with because they are trendy and catchy...

This is the first time I hear of the term originating from the journalists (rather than hacker community). Got any references to back it?

I also don't see how "web 2.0" and "blogosphere" have any relevance, since "rootkit" as a term predates those by a decade at the very least.

Rooting a box means gaining control of the root account. rootkits were typically a kit of tools you used to root a box, to get that root password or escalate your login to root privileges.

So long as I remember (basically back to early 90s), "rootkit" was a set of tools that you use to ensure that the rooted box stays rooted without owner's knowledge - e.g. by replacing passwd with a backdoored one, patching compiler to insert it, etc.

Re:Steam on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I run WoW in WINE, and with very reasonable results (I get some visual artefacts, but only single frames of some incorrect polygon shapes). If Valve were working on bundling custom WINE launchers for each game... That might work.

The problem with WoW and WINE is you can't load max settings on WoW through WINE or it will crash out when you load into places like Dalaran. This was my biggest issue with trying to use WoW on Linux (had to go back to a dual-boot system for games). As mentioned on the WoW WINE page:

Dalaran and/or other areas cause crashes

This is due to WoW running 32-bit (there is no 64-bit client) and trying to allocate more than roughly 4GB of memory for advanced textures. This is a bug in Wine, since wine, by default, reserves 4096MB (the maximum for 32bit systems) of virtual memory to mimic the win32 memory layout. WoW allocates progressively more memory for textures and this forces the display drivers (which are loaded in the same section of memory) to quit with an GL_OUT_OF_MEMORY error.

Dalaran is a good example of this. Dragonblight and Icecrown may also suffer from this bug.

A possible workaround includes trying is to force Linux to use less memory than what you have, or to make it think it has less memory (eg, limit it to 3GB). The preferred way to do this is to add the mem=3G (for 3GB) or mem=2G (For 2GB) flag to your kernel boot parameters.

How to do this can be found in your particular distro's documentation.

Some people have reported it to work, whilst for others it has not. You may need to sacrifice the advanced textures if you try this.

Re:Steam on Linux

[BlackSash]

I wrote this particular warning in that page, and the issue has been mitigated somewhat, though it is still present.

At the moment the game no longer crashes, instead it starts dropping frames until the FPS reaches something along the lines of 3-6 seconds per frame.

the workaround still works afaik.

Even though this bug is still in existence, it certainly isn't horrible enough to drive me back to windows though. I'll take slightly less textury goodness over having to struggle with windows any day of the week.

Re:Steam on Linux

[badkarmadayaccount]

Anybody else see Valve branded Ubuntu CDs with Steam in the base system in everyone's mail in the future? (They'll have one up on competitors if users are on a minority platform which they rule, at least initially)

They're working on it. That's all.

[onion2k]

Someone is obviously working on the idea, which is grand, but that's all we can tell at this point. The number of projects that are started and eventually canned because they're either to hard to finish, too costly, or just too expensive to bother marketing that they won't turn a profit is pretty vast.

The fact code exists does not necessarily mean we'll ever get to play the games.

But let's be optimistic. A native version of Steam would be pretty awesome. Here's hoping whoever is behind the project is successful. :)

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Pharmboy]

The fact code exists does not necessarily mean we'll ever get to play the games.

Additionally, even if they fully port Source to Linux, most of the games on Steam don't use the Source engine. It would still be A Good Thing® as it would make the platform (Linux/x86) more viable if Steam supported it, which would serve to encourage other companies to release for Linux as well. It will be slow, but it has to start somewhere, and Steam/Valve has a very good reputation for being friendly to both content providers and gamers, providing the least offensive DRM out there.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[ender_01]

+1 on it being "A Good Thing®"

Linux has to start somewhere with a big commercial supporter. I would even re-purchase Valve titles if they did this to show my support of the move.

I will however NOT purchase titles that are simply wrapped in WINE or something similar, much like EA does with their titles on OS X. It shows little work or care for the platform when they do things like that.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[jo_ham]

That's what people said about Mac gaming, and Steam is currently in closed beta - all is not lost.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[BitZtream]

Its more than likely nothing more than support for Linux dedicated servers via the steam interface.

Truth of the matter is, once it was ported to OS X, porting to Linux is just a matter of fixing it to work with the various broken Linux API calls ... I'm, sorry, Linux optimized API calls, which can be done in most cases by some syscall hacks on binaries (see FBSD Linux emulation) or of course, recompiling using some macros to redefine function argument order.

Either way, as you said, we might see Steam for Linux, but no one is going to automagically get games because of this. It is possible we'll start to see Linux games thanks to Mac OS X steam support though, once you get OS X done, making Linux work is generally trivial (Assuming the use of OpenGL for the UI and rendering rather than native Aqua widgets)

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Daengbo]

This is all based on a startup Bash script for the client which checks for versions and alters the library path accordingly. It's for clients, not servers.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[rorin]

Yeah, I hate it when I have to syscall a binary and recompile my macros!

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[MikeBabcock]

I purchased all the ID games they ported to Linux, at retail no less.

I have my nice tin box of Quake III to prove it too.

Neverwinter Nights on Linux was a good investment as well.

Decent games were ported to Linux more then than now it would seem.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Jaysyn]

I think GoG & Stardock have them beat in the least offensive DRM department.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Monkeedude1212]

On the Plus side - All of Valve's titles from Half Life 2 Onwards have used modified versions of the Source Engine. They have a high amount of Operability between them all - I can run Half Life 2 on the L4D Engine, I can run Episode 2 on the Episode 1 engine (though trying a newer game with an older engine has led to some small bugs, its never been game crashing except for Cases with Portals involved). They have even been curtious enough to make a version of the Original Half Life that runs in Source.

So, should Valve make their latest Source game operable in Linux, pretty much ALL of their previous titles will run in Linux. I think thats why they see this as a viable move. It's not so much of an issue of porting 1 game over at a time, its like porting 1 game over, then doing bug fixes across multiple games, and you've finished porting your entire game legacy.

We've all been afraid for some time that Valve was going to ditch the PC and focus on consoles, because just about every other PC Game developer has. IF Valve follows through with this (and its a big IF), this will reaffirm my faith in them that they acknowledge the PC as the best platform for first person shooters bar none.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[DMUTPeregrine]

It would also help grow the number of linux gamers: if someone using linux wants to play Source engine games now they have to use WINE (reports itself as Windows) or use Windows. With Steam+Source on Linux the "anonymous usage statistics" collection would report the computer as being Linux. The downloads of the Linux Steam clients will be reported.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stardock's GOO DRM sucks, so I'd say it's more terrible than even the worst ubisoft could dream up.

Re:They're working on it. That's all.

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing to remember is that a decent number of the small-studio games available on Steam (World of Goo, Defcon, Darwinia, etc.) do have Linux versions. As such, were Valve to port their Steam platform to Linux, it would probably be relatively easy for those studios which already have Linux versions of their games to make Linux/Steam versions of their games. Combine that with Valve porting their Source Engine games, and Steam on Linux would already have a decent offering to Linux users.

Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Rogerborg]

This could be an ancient script cut-and-pasted to suit. Heck, I've still got a Makefile that has a section for Ultrix but it doesn't mean that it works or that I'm supporting it.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[HateBreeder]

This is not your private development repository we're talking about.

Companies normally don't include "clutter" and left over files in a release tree. Normally, you would have a carefully prepared and checked distribution tree, where every file is accounted for. If steam now includes some linux libraries, I would take it as a very strong indication that they intend to use them.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[larry bagina]

steam doesn't include linux libraries, the OS X beta version includes a bash script which checks for darwin/os x and also has a couple lines checking if it's linux.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[icebraining]

http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux?date=706605

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies normally don't include "clutter" and left over files in a release tree.

You obviously have never looked at the "release" tree of VALVe games, then. There's always a bunch of unused shit in every sound/model/materials folder.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[themacks]

the interesting bits from the script:

UNAME=`uname`
if [ "$UNAME" == "Darwin" ]; then
PLATFORM=osx32 # prepend our lib path to LD_LIBRARY_PATH
export DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH="${STEAMROOT}"/${PLATFORM}:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH
elif [ "$UNAME" == "Linux" ]; then
PLATFORM=linux32
# prepend our lib path to LD_LIBRARY_PATH
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH="${STEAMROOT}"/${PLATFORM}:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH
fi

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Lumpy]

Companies normally don't include "clutter" and left over files in a release tree.

you never looked at files in microsoft releases have you.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Chaos Incarnate]

Because it's far better to leave in some probably-unused sounds/models/textures than to actually remove them only to have the game plotz when you find out that, hey, they were being used for something somewhere.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Megagun0]

Interestingly, all those files referenced in that steam_client_linux file can actually be downloaded already. Unfortunately, it crashes out for me with the following message: "[ 0%] !!! Fatal Error: Failed to determine download location for universe 0 unlinked 0 orphaned pipes".. But I probably did something wrong there.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Rogerborg]

This is not your private development repository we're talking about.

Yes, I know, thanks. I wasn't talking about that in the first place. I was talking about my "company release tree". There's a whole bunch of legacy or tried-and-abandoned cruft in there that it's not worth anyone's time to remove. And yes, it goes out to customers, and no, they don't care; they only care if the things that they are paying for work.

If you (and I do mean you personally) are spending time doing that sort of tidying on your releases, then you're not working on paid tasks, and you are surplus to requirements. Sucks to be you.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[HateBreeder]

Sucks to be you.

Almost took you seriously, but then I read that.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Splab]

Try rebooting universe.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you (and I do mean you personally) are spending time doing that sort of tidying on your releases, then you're not working on paid tasks, and you are surplus to requirements. Sucks to be you.

That's an awfully short-sighted view of things. It's quite likely that at some point in the future, somebody has to maintain your code base, including the build system. They may waste time trying to figure out which parts are useless cruft, and which parts are actually important. So you may be saving money in the long term by spending something on cleanups in the present.

Obviously, there are trade-offs involved, but your "Sucks to be you." is a very one-sided view of things that could easily bite you in the long run.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Joe Tie.]

Eh, every year when a "Oh my god, is steam coming out on linux! Look at this file I just found!" story hits slashdot it's made pretty clear soon after that gaming companies leave clutter around quite often.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[karmatic]

It's more than simply "abandoned legacy cruft"

Checking the linux client version.

This references the following files:

public_all.zip, and
skins_all.zip.

and, of course:

Linux binaries, and
Linux client.

Looking at the linux client:

[root@XXX steam]# ldd linux32/steam
                linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000)
                librt.so.1 => /lib/librt.so.1 (0x00aa6000)
                libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x00a3c000)
                libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00a36000)
                libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00a1d000)
                libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x008d7000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x008b9000)

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[MrNiceguy_KS]

You do this by detonating an atom bomb near a magnetic anomaly.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[karmatic]

Quick follow-up:

kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ wget http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/public_all.zip.42037f1079151a7bfb225ef0ac9bd5b3b3840ce9
kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ wget http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/skins_all.zip.6a58428db616736d79a3374ba75abd29e2c1276f
kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ wget http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/bins_linux.zip.dc36f31374267ad4a740762a6cf1925ed30bcab9
kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ wget http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_linux.zip.52367793a26b83abc84871770277e1b8d77608bc
kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ for ZIP in *; do unzip $ZIP; done
chmod 755 steam.sh linux32/*

kathrin@KathysLinuxLaptop:/tmp/steam$ ./steam.sh
[ 0%] !!! Fatal Error: Failed to determine download location for universe 0
[----] Verifying installation...
[ 0%] Downloading Update...
[ 0%] !!! Fatal Error: Failed to determine download location for universe 0
unlinked 1 orphaned pipes
removing stale semaphore last operated on by process 9209 with name 0emSteamEngineInstance
removing stale semaphore last operated on by process 9209 with name 0eSteamEngineLock
CellID: Fetching server list from CSDS. . .
CellID: CSDS returned 169 servers.
CellID: Connecting to 193.34.51.2:27031. . .

Unable to open displayCAsyncIOManager: 0 threads terminating. 0 reads, 0 writes, 0 deferrals.
CAsyncIOManager: 3750 single object sleeps, 0 multi object sleeps
CAsyncIOManager: 0 single object alertable sleeps, 11 multi object alertable sleeps
pure virtual method called
terminate called without an active exception
Aborted

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[karmatic]

Looking at the data, the "version" appears to be a unix timestamp (1271781219). This would correspond to a date of Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:33:39 GMT. This is more-or-less consistent with the .zip file, which has a last modified date on the steam executable from last month.

I suspect I'm just missing a file or two, and should have the client up and running in a little bit.

Some references from the client UI:

/home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/gamespage_details.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/gamespage_details_news.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/gamespage_grid.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/gamespage_list.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/SteamPurchaseController.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/SteamPurchaseReceipt.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/steamUI/SteamRootDialog.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/vgui2/controls/../../vgui2/controls/HTML.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/vgui2/controls/../../vgui2/controls/ImageList.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/vgui2/controls/../../vgui2/controls/ImagePanel.cpp /home/VALVE/rackadmin/buildslave/steam_main_linux/build/src/vgui2/controls/../../vgui2/controls/Label.cpp

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. You can actually download and run the client. well, you can at least download the Linux client and run the Mac client. I haven't booted into Linux to see if that one works. It kicks me off when I try to log in, but it does start up.

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[badkarmadayaccount]

DIVISION BY PICKLE
OUT OF CHEESE ERROR!
stupidfilterstupidfilterstupidfilterstupidfilterstupidfilterstupidfilter

Re:Insufficient data for meaningful answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I know that. But the grand parent was wrong.

Great

[goose-incarnated]

Between APPL market cap catching up to MSFT, people moving off to apple products in droves, google's dominance, and non-MS phones, plus the increasing user-friendlyness of Linux distros, microsoft hasn't been in the news lately. Now I can *finally* move off of windows totally, if games on linux take off.

Seems that the "Microsoft is dying" meme might well happen, but not due to a single MS-killer, but emergence of new monopolies?

Re:Great

[zigmeister]

New monopolies? I don't know about that. More like new markets. I don't think MS will ever die, but if they ever lose their grip on the desktop market, it won't have anything to do with linux (I'm typing this on FC-12 so I'm not a hater, just a realist). IMO it'll be increasing Apple market share in laptops (mostly young people) and secondly more and more people simply not caring what OS they are running as more stuff is done through the browser.

Re:Great

[ffreeloader]

I don't think MS will ever die, but if they ever lose their grip on the desktop market, it won't have anything to do with linux (I'm typing this on FC-12 so I'm not a hater, just a realist). IMO it'll be increasing Apple market share in laptops (mostly young people) and secondly more and more people simply not caring what OS they are running as more stuff is done through the browser.

This is just anecdotal, but in the small town, but with 2 colleges and 2 universities within 30 miles, where I live I see more high school and college age kids running Linux installations on their laptops than I see Apple laptops. Probably at a 4 or 5 to 1 margin in favor of Linux. Go back in time 2 or 3 years and that most definitely wasn't the case. Three years ago I couldn't find a Linux laptop in the area other than my own. Now that's most definitely not the case.

There appears to have been a sea change around here as talking to kids about what excites them has them talking about Linux, not OS X or Windows. It seems they have teachers, dads, uncles, etc... introducing them to Linux and getting them excited about it. It's typical grass roots expansion.

Re:Great

[goose-incarnated]

How the hell is that a troll? Damn mods missing meds again

Re:Great

[geekoid]

"Between APPL market cap catching up to MSFT, p"
hahahahha...

In-house development?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could this be something Valve uses in-house rather than something which will be made public? Something for dev work?

Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Thunderbird2k]

This is no evidence at all. Valve has released dedicated Linux servers for their games for years including steam. Come on don't take phoroCRAP serious. They make news of nothing.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[PhrostyMcByte]

Indeed -- the Linux binaries in Left 4 Dead were merely for dedicated servers. There was no news there, and the summary makes it seem like Phoronix had greater insight than they really did. Nearly every multiplayer game that runs on Windows has also included dedicated server binaries for Linux, including old Valve titles like Half-Life and Counter-Strike. They just extended that to include a command-line auto-updater that worked through Steam.

That said, if they are porting their games to OS X, it seems like it should not be very hard to go one small step farther and make it work for Linux. Once they've got the OpenGL renderer done and have ported the code to work with GCC, all they need to worry about is the relatively small windowing, audio, and input code which shouldn't take a seasoned developer more than a week to hack up.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[icebraining]

http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux?date=706605

Sorry for the redundancy.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Parts of Steam are included with dedicated Linux servers for Steam games as those servers must be able to authenticate the users connecting to the server. That doesn't mean Steam client for linux (or the actual games playable on Linux).

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Antity-H]

all they need to worry about is the relatively small windowing, audio, and input code which shouldn't take a seasoned developer more than a week to hack up.

yeah try to tell that to the linux flash maintainer ... http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Archaemic]

Or perhaps the lead (only?) programmer for Braid: http://braid-game.com/news/?p=364
(I think there was another post saying "Screw this, it's not coming out for Linux," but that might just be at the end of the comments)

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Anonymous Coward]

The script mentions both OS X and Linux, and after a quick Google search I couldn't find anything about HLDS on OS X. So I'm going to assume that it's for the Steam client. Unless they're porting HLDS to OS X, which I haven't heard anything about.

Feel free to correct me though.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[epiphani]

And having gone through large levels of painstaking kernel-level optimization based on best practices provided by both Valve and the community, I can honestly say that their dedicated Linux servers are Crap.

It annoys me too, because the big things that are annoying are things I could fix in half an hour with access to the source.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[VGPowerlord]

The script mentions both OS X and Linux, and after a quick Google search I couldn't find anything about HLDS on OS X. So I'm going to assume that it's for the Steam client. Unless they're porting HLDS to OS X, which I haven't heard anything about.

Feel free to correct me though.

Valve announced on March 9, 2010 that they were porting all their Source-based games to Mac. Your Mac Questions Answered from the TF2 Blog has more details.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Thunderbird2k]

The steam client binaries are needed for running a dedicated server. It has been a long time since I used them but from what I remember you needed a steam account (you didn't have to pay) in order to be able to run the server and I think the client was for downloading the data as well (but don't remember it too well).

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I knew the games were coming to OS X, but I was talking about HLDS; Half Life Dedicated Server.
The parent said that the reference to Linux in the script could just be something about the dedicated servers for Linux. But if OS X doesn't have HLDS, then why would the Linux dedicated servers be mentioned in the same script as the OS X Steam client?

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck trying to get anything through to that aspies case.

Re:Valve servers available for Linux for years

[Jorl17]

INFORMATIVE? INFORMATIVE? GO. FUCK. YOURSELF. That's just pure bashing with next to zero arguments. I get what you mean, but I think that modding that informative is typical of someone eager to have his/her fascist ideal come true.

This could be awesome!

[glenkim]

As an aspiring game developer, I look at Valve's actions with a lot of excitement lately. Steam and Source are coming to Mac for sure now, and so that means Source SDK should be updated to support deployment to Macs. If Linux is included in this package, it only sweetens the deal. For developers just getting started, Source would have a unique advantage over the other engines available currently (e.g. Unreal, Crytek) in that it would allow developers to reach as wide an audience as possible. I really hope this happens.

Re:This could be awesome!

[BitZtream]

Source already runs on Linux.

If you weren't aware of this you really haven't put any effort into finding out about it. Yes, I realize you're talking about playing games not just the dedicated server, but the fact that the dedicated servers will be happy to run in Linux means the core is already there, its just a matter of graphics support, and that is going to be specific to every game, not the source engine directly.

Well okay, every game that matters to anyone as anything worth its salt has to go outside the SDK to get what it wants accomplished graphically.

Re:This could be awesome!

[V!NCENT]

Ever heared about Unigene? It's Win, Lin and Mac and tesselation and OpenGL 4.x and DirectX 11 support.

Commercial, so not FLOSS...

Re:This could be awesome!

[TypoNAM]

Unreal tech has been running natively on Mac and Linux as this was done years ago. You don't remember or haven't played Unreal Tournament 2004? Although that was the last Epic games title to run on Linux. UT3 was promised and still hasn't been ported to Linux and released publicly.

Even the original Unreal Tournament was ported to Linux, but by Loki Games and not Epic: http://www.lokigames.com/products/ut/

Re:This could be awesome!

[geekoid]

"As an aspiring game developer, "

Think very carefully about that choice, the industry is a meat grinder. I highly recommend starting your own company. If yoy are still living at home, it's a great cheap way to start a company. When you are in school, make a lot of contacts, bid a person with drive that does what you don't, and take some business course. At the very least you might meat a good marketing guy.

I have seen a lot of people get into the game industry (yeah, pay to play!) then 4 years of 60-80 hour weeks and they are wondering where there life went. If you can't self motivate, and do your own thing without a 'guaranteed' weekly paycheck, get into generic applications programming and just enjoy playing games.

I wish you the best of luck, because if you are successful it means more games for me to play.

I will buy

[Haiyadragon]

If they do this I will buy a few games the moment they are released. I hate DRM but this kind of development needs to be encouraged. Now if only ATI and/or Nvidia would open up their specs, or some open protocol/source solution would come into existence.

Re:I will buy

[Anonymous Coward]

Slowly but surely.. Look up Gallium3D:
ATI's Gallium3D Driver Is Still Playing Catch-Up

Re:I will buy

[Sparr0]

I mostly don't buy software or hardware with DRM.

I mostly don't buy software that runs on Windows only.

Steam currently falls into both of those categories, putting it in absolutely-won't-buy land. If it ever comes to Linux, I will probably buy at least a few games through it, but only when they are cheaper than otherwise.

Re:I will buy

[Inner_Child]

If it ever comes to Linux, I will probably buy at least a few games through it, but only when they are cheaper than otherwise.

It's all about the weekend deals - I picked up the complete X-Com collection (5 full games) a couple months back for the paltry price of $2.

Re:I will buy

[tepples]

I mostly don't buy software or hardware with DRM.

DVD players, Blu-ray Disc players, cable boxes, and PC video on demand services all use digital restrictions management. So let me guess: you mostly watch movies only on rabbit ears TV or not at all.

Re:I will buy

[Anonymous Coward]

ATI has opened their specs. Please make me a driver that works as well or better than nVidia's supported binary blob. kthnkby.

Re:I will buy

[Sparr0]

I don't use any of the things you listed, and yet I watch 10-15 movies per month. Legally in theaters and on bootleg DVDs, illegally by downloading via bittorrent. Keep an open mind.

Re:I will buy

[tepples]

Legally in theaters

What do you do legally if you want to see a movie that is older than 6 months?

and on bootleg DVDs, illegally by downloading via bittorrent.

I thought bootleg DVDs were on the "illegally" side.

Keep an open mind.

I do keep an open mind. It's just not kosher to confess so due to "inducement" case law.

Re:I will buy

[Sparr0]

I occasionally watch older movies at movie-night parties with friends.

Bootleg DVDs (and [S]VCDs before them) are illegal to make, import, or sell. They are (IANAL. Read the copyright statutes yourself. My interpretation applies only to the USA.) not illegal to buy, possess, or watch. A lot of stealing/IP analogies break down when you get tho details like this, because there is no IP equivalent to laws about buying or possessing stolen property.

Re:I will buy

[fat_mike]

Is there a keyboard shortcut macro or a hidden link to canned responses to Linux posts or some kind of form where I put x, y, and z where is x is a technology Slashdot hates and y and z are two companies that should open source their proprietary code that I'm not aware of?

I keep forgetting to buy Portal

[jaminJay]

If it comes to Linux via Steam, I'll have no excuse left.

Re:I keep forgetting to buy Portal

[Anonymous Coward]

Portal runs on my karmic without problems. Download steam,install, download portal,instal, play. No hickups, no glitches :-)

Well this certainly is...

[Anonymous Coward]

a Red Letter Day!

Using what video drivers?

[Nikker]

Never used steam myself so maybe someone can enlighten me. The video drivers for Linux are crap compared to Windows, does this mean they have some way access the hardware properly? Or does it mean you need twice the hardware to run at the Windows equivalent performance?

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

The video drivers for Linux are crap compared to Windows

Unbiased citation, or I call bullshit.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

On nvidia based hardware I got better performance in some games with Wine then running the same game in Windows. They might be closed source binary blobs, but they do work great.

On the flip side, my laptop (which runs WoW on the lowest settings) refuses to work at all with the binary ATI drivers. And the open source drivers crash X and don't give any real performance that you can use.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what world you're living in - FGLRX is buggy and will sometimes decide to start eating my memory like ice cream, but when it works it's not noticeably slower than the Windows drivers. Of course, the newest commercial Linux game I run is ETQW, and I've got a Radeon HD5850, so I may just be covering it up with more hardware.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Mouldy]

You'll probably need twice the hardware for equal performance. Maybe it'll give nvidia & ATI a shove in the right direction when they realise that people might actually make games for the linux platform now.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[lordandmaker]

I can't tell the difference between HL2 in Windows and in WINE on my system. It does require the non-free drivers, but if I'm playing Steam games I'm not likely to be that bothered.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[mr_da3m0n]

I can't tell the difference between HL2 in Windows and in WINE on my system. It does require the non-free drivers, but if I'm playing Steam games I'm not likely to be that bothered.

I can, because last time I tried, wine did not provide all the dx9 shaders the engine used. So it certainly looks different to me, as in, slightly better on Windows. But then again it's been a while since I tried it, maybe wine changed significantly since I last did.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[BitZtream]

...

Perhaps you should go ahead and search the Internet or hell, just read some old slashdot posts.

If you aren't aware of how shitty the 3d situation is in Linux than you probably have never put a 3d capable card in a Linux machine.

If you have, and you think its on equal to Windows or OS X than you've never used Windows or OS X.

Linux 3d (and all the open OSes really) has absolutely shitty 3d acceleration support. Linux is the best of the open OSes in this case, but its still horrible compared to the OSes actually supported by ATI and nVidia. No, ATI doesn't support 3D accel under linux. I mean, yes, they do, but only in some specific cases. Just because they are giving out some specs doesn't mean they are giving out the ones that are important and its not like their OSS implementations are exactly showing how to do 3D.

nVidia on Linux ... I'd rather pull out my eyeballs using toenails to do it.

Why don't you go find some citation for 3D performance in Linux where it claims its as good as or better than Windows. Its fine that you like Linux. Hell, its even fine that you're a fanboy, but for fucks sake, don't sit around and completely ignore obvious problems it has, you just sound stupid and make it clear no one should listen to you.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[FreonTrip]

The Nvidia drivers run very well in Linux; in the realm of OpenGL, I've literally found no difference in performance or quality. If anything, the Linux drivers are somewhat better-behaved - setting a 16-bit 3D video mode results in ugly dithering in Windows, but not in Linux.

I have not had occasion to try the fglrx drivers on remotely modern hardware, but last time I tried them it was reminiscent of ATI's driver situation in Windows from a decade earlier: glitchy and somewhat prone to memory leaks, but definitely better than nothing, and leagues ahead of the open source drivers.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[u-235-sentinel]

Never used steam myself so maybe someone can enlighten me. The video drivers for Linux are crap compared to Windows, does this mean they have some way access the hardware properly? Or does it mean you need twice the hardware to run at the Windows equivalent performance?

I haven't seen a problem. been playing Alien Arena, Urban Terror, Nexuiz and warzone 2100 for years with great results on my Nvidia cards under Linux from RedHat, Suse and now Ubuntu.

Twice the hardware? Huh? where did you get that from? Even my Wine / Crossover games like Team Fortress 2 and Counterstrike Source seem to run better under crossover games. My ping for some reason is also half of what the same connection/hardware has to the same servers under windows. No a scientific test but it was around 50% faster. Now if it can go native then I'd be switching so fast it would make your head spin :-)

Re:Using what video drivers?

[satoshi1]

So, what exactly is so eye-ball-pulling-out about nVidia on Linux? I've been doing it for several years and it's one of the EASIEST components of my machine to set up. I dread reformatting only because I have a ton of custom init scripts I would need to track down. Installing and updating the nvidia drivers is piss-easy on any modern distribution, and only mildly less so on older distros.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

It used to be the case that you had to run it in dx81 or 80 mode to get reasonable appearance.

I haven't tried it in awhile on Source-based games, so I can't comment either, but the other things I've tried it on look pretty much identical to Windows at this point.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[armanox]

Never used steam myself so maybe someone can enlighten me. The video drivers for Linux are crap compared to Windows, does this mean they have some way access the hardware properly? Or does it mean you need twice the hardware to run at the Windows equivalent performance?

I've never seen such issues with gaming in Linux. When running 3d multiplatform games I have seen no loss of performance when compared to Windows (going back to when my GeForce 3 was still potent).

Re:Using what video drivers?

[FreonTrip]

First of all, stuff the shrieking nerd rage. I've done nothing to deserve it, and I stand by my opinion. Having run games (Doom 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, FitzQuake, Left 4 Dead under Wine, innumerable others...) and other applications (Google Earth, xscreensaver, Compiz, Blender, Google SketchUp under Wine...) using the Nvidia proprietary drivers (which I specifically mentioned in my post) on cards ranging from a 5900XT to a 9600GT, I state once again that the Nvidia OpenGL drivers are not meaningfully different from their Windows counterpart.

Reading old Slashdot posts would point out that many people agree with me - most past bitching about Nvidia drivers has been rooted in erratic behavior with regard to power management and the non-GPL status of the driver, not the capabilities of the 3D driver. ATI does officially support their products according to their own capricious (and sometimes infuriating) whims, offering what amount to specification dumps for their graphics architectures as well as the fglrx driver, which slowly gropes its way toward quality.

I'm not sure why I bothered answering your incoherent, misspelled ranting. There are numerous sites where you can compare performance between Linux and Windows ports of games, or you could even give 3D a try on a modern distro and video card. And consider seeing a qualified neurologist - your meds need to be upped.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[FreonTrip]

Aaaaand Slashdot 2.0 has failed me again, having associated your response with my original post. My opinion remains largely unchanged, however.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[geekoid]

yeah..no.
They aren't piss easy. Win 7 is piss easy. They are behind the Win 7 updates, and the performance is usually pretty crappy.

Don't you see that the fact that you need custom init scripts is a sign of how it's not as easy as Win 7?

I haven't tried in OSX so I can't say anything.

Yes, I use linux. I want the drivers to get better, and native games from Valve would be awesome. Lets not blind are selves.

oh, back up your damn scripts. Jeez.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[geekoid]

It's geek rage, real nerds are much more matter of fact.

Boiling does what he said:
"hey, I can install driver and it's easy witha ll this custom init scripts"

Cognitive disconnect.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[satoshi1]

Why do you assume the custom init scripts are for the drivers? Did I ever say that? No, learn some reading comprehension instead of jumping on points that have no relation. You know how piss easy it is to install nvidia drivers? Open whatever your package manager is, search for nvidia, install. JUST like Windows Update! That's called easy, my friend.

Re:Using what video drivers?

[Jorl17]

Video drivers for Linux aren't that crappy. I achieve good performances with Nvidia cards and their proproietary drivers. The same machine running Windows and Linux (both quite lightweighted) show me that Linux is faster in some games running through Wine (OGL). I've also tested native games on either platform and seen the same results. Of course, there are other factors here...

So maybe, just maybe

[Tar-Alcarin]

2010 could be the year of the linux desktop, then!

Phoronix == moronic phoenix

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever dig into their "benchmarks"?

They're a bunch of morons that keep coming back no matter how many times you kill them.

DRM

[emkyooess]

Valve: Bringing video game DRM to Linux. (And I don't care about how much you think Steam is great and wonderful, it's still DRM and it cannot be tolerated.)

Re:DRM

[imakemusic]

Valve: Bringing gaming to Linux. (And I don't care how much you think it can't be tolerated, it's still great and wonderful and I will continue to use it.)

Re:DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you've never seen a vagina in your life, have you? You know, besides the ones you look at on your 14" CRT (a full 13" bigger than your tool judging by your whining).

Re:DRM

[dnaumov]

Valve: Bringing video game DRM to Linux. (And I don't care about how much you think Steam is great and wonderful, it's still DRM and it cannot be tolerated.)

So I guess you don't do gaming at all then? Considering basically 99% of all major game releases these days have some kind of DRM and considering Steam itself is probably the most lax and non-intrusive kind of DRM there IS. And contrary to the horrors of things like Ubisoft "persistent online connection required even for singleplayer" DRM, Steam actually offers some great value to the user. I don't ever have to worry about losing my physical media or the cdkey stickers becoming unreadable. With several games that support Steam Cloud, I also dont ever have to worry about backing up my game settings and savegames, because they follow me, roaming profile-style.

Re:DRM

[jo_ham]

So, don't install it.

There's always nethack.

Re:DRM

[Steauengeglase]

I know it's a compromise, but at least Valve offer something for their DRM: unlimited downloads (well, at least for Valve's games, too bad some of the other publishers aren't as keen to the idea). I hate to say it, but in the game biz there is a certain amount of hate for Linux and Linux nerds. It is viewed as a money pit and its user's are often typified as pirates, this by a business whose hate for piracy can at times pale that of the *AAs. If Valve wants to throw Linux users a bone, I'm all for it.

Re:DRM

[nomadic]

Considering basically 99% of all major game releases these days have some kind of DRM

99% of major game releases back in the 80's and 90's had DRM too, which everyone seems to forget.

Re:DRM

[Minwee]

Or how about "Valve: Bringing a game to Linux"?

Re:DRM

[tepples]

So I guess you don't do gaming at all then?

That or someone is more interested in board gaming or card gaming than video gaming.

Re:DRM

[imakemusic]

Or "Valve: bringing all of their games to Linux and open up an easy (for developers) route for other games to follow".

Or "Valve: At least they're fucking trying."

Re:DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve: Bringing gaming to Linux. (And I don't care how much you think it can't be tolerated, it's still great and wonderful and I will continue to use it.)

I have always loved Valve's games, for the story and playability. DRM or not. all I'm waiting for is a few companies to jump on developing for linux (EA/DiCE?). once that happens. i'm give Mega$Pig the big boot in the ass it desirves. xp never quite worked. vista is garbage. and 7 has serious problems internally. MSUX.. APTly named. just like WiMP. M$ is good at putting themselves down.

Re:DRM

[brkello]

Man, what is wrong with you? Something good happens for Linux and you still have to make a negative out of it. This site is moving from technology enthusiasts to depressing old whiners that can't be happy about anything. I pity your sad little life.

Re:DRM

[Minwee]

Do you even realize that you're describing yourself?

Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve is staffed by people who only know how to work with the shit x86 CPU connected to a big fat expensive graphic card style architecture.

They don't have anyone competent in modern graphics hardware systems like the PS3.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Isnt the "modern graphics hardware" inside the PS3 already outdated? How then can it be modern.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[paedobear]

Perhaps they can't "Handel" modern graphics hardware - what I want to know is if they can Bach it or not

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Issarlk]

The modern graphic hardware that can't do better than 720p on some games?

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[rainmouse]

Graphics don't make the game, they only colour it in. Games dependant on fantastic graphics tend to age like sour milk and have almost zero replay value.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[VGPowerlord]

Valve is staffed by people who only know how to work with the shit x86 CPU connected to a big fat expensive graphic card style architecture.

They don't have anyone competent in modern graphics hardware systems like the PS3.

Last time I checked, all of their Source games were available on the Xbox 360, too, which uses a PowerPC architecture.

Having said that, Team Fortress 2 apparently runs into memory issues with the 360 due to its texture resolution... and the number of additional textures added to the PC version in its various updates. Which is why the 360 version has never had said updates.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[tepples]

Isnt the "modern graphics hardware" inside the PS3 already outdated?

Is the PS3's RSX GPU more outdated than the integrated GPU that ships with most PCs?

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[tepples]

Graphics don't make the game, they only colour it in.

Would you rather play Missile Command on an Atari 2600 or on an Xbox 360?

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Well, they have to let the hardware cook for a while to see if it's up to the state of the Mozart. Perhaps in the Beethoven.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[fyrewulff]

No, it's an issue of patch size. You are limited to somewhere around 4MB for a patch on the 360 (it can of course, decompress into something bigger)

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Cornelius the Great]

The modern graphic hardware that can't do better than 720p on most games? Fixed that for you. There are maybe a handful of true 1080p games for the PS3. Hell, the PS3 can't even render full 720p for some games (see: Modern Warfare, GTA IV, etc).

The fact is, that RSX core is equivalent to the Geforce 7000 series GPUs, and the PS3 came out during the same time when the 8800GTX was available. Thus, the PS3 already had obsolete graphics (compared to PCs anyway) even when it was released.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Gizzmonic]

The 360 has a scaler chip and renders most of its games in 720p or less before scaling up to whatever output is specified by the user. PCs have more advanced graphics cards-no shit, Sherlock. Consoles more than make up for it with tightly optimized programming-with the result that the graphics actually get better over the life of the console, as opposed to PC where it starts out smooth and then gradually gets slower and sloooower until you fork out another $300 for another GFX card and/or CPU/mainboard combo. Don't know about you, but I hate that feeling, although I love everything else about PC games (free online play, mods, etc).

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[jedidiah]

I would rather play the actual arcade version in an emulator.

The Atari 2600 is yet another "adaptation" of the original. It's really no different than an Xbox version.

There's really on substitute for the genuine article.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[VGPowerlord]

No, it's an issue of patch size. You are limited to somewhere around 4MB for a patch on the 360 (it can of course, decompress into something bigger)

I can't view teamfortress.com directly here at work (even Google's cache of it is blocked), so here's hoping Google gave me the right link.

TF2 Blog entry explaining why the Xbox 360 version hasn't been done. Note, this is from April 2, 2009.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Captain Splendid]

Is the PS3's RSX GPU more outdated than the integrated GPU that ships with most PCs?

Right, because Steam gamers run off integrated gaphics. Moron.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[fyrewulff]

Yes. All the content they've added (new models, game modes, and so on) would be impossible to just push out as a patch for the 360.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Captain Splendid]

I would rather play the actual arcade version in an emulator.

WRONG!

The correct answer is you'd rather hit ebay, hunt down an original cabinet, perform the maintenance and repair necessary, and then bask in the awe of both your geek and non-geek friends when they see it sitting in your living room.

Now hand in your geek card.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Omestes]

...it starts out smooth and then gradually gets slower and sloooower until you fork out another $300 for another GFX card and/or CPU/mainboard combo.

Keeping my PC somewhat updated (not cutting edge, by any stretch) costs me around the price of a console every 3-4 years. Most PC games can be run at decent quality with 3+ year old hardware now. The age of companies pushing the "extremes" (Mostly ID, though Crytek got their play too) is pretty much dead. Most PC games are console ports now, meaning you can run them on any hardware that isn't much newer than that in the current generation of consoles.

I actually haven't found a game I can't run at near max settings with my old, $100, ATI 4650.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[VGPowerlord]

That's not stopping them from doing what they did for Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2... released it as DLC that you have to pay for (while PC users get it free).

For that matter, Left 4 Dead 2 had a new one of those today.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[hairyfeet]

Uhhhh...I would say that is a BIG yes considering that the RSX is based on the Nvidia 7800 and even the cheapest desktops I am building ATM come with the AMD 4xxx chips, unless you are counting Intel which anybody who actually cared about graphics wouldn't.

As for TFA, doesn't Steam support DRM? I thought you couldn't do DRM on Linux thanks to the GPL, so how exactly would that work? After all wouldn't it be trivial to bypass any Steam DRM on Linux, by simply intercepting whatever hooks they use? Considering how anti-DRM RMS and other vocal members of the Linux community are I just don't see how that would work unless they are going DRM free, which I doubt the game companies would allow for anything recent.

And now slightly OT, but has any Linux users tried getting GOG games running on Linux? While steam is okay GOG with their DRM free installers and loads of extras is a nicer experience IMHO, and I would love to recommend it to some of my Linux using friends, but since I don't currently have a Linux box setup and haven't been able to find anything one way or another about whether GOG running on Linux I am curious. So has anybody gotten GOG installers to run? Is it easy, hard, or royal PITA? Inquiring minds want to know.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the graphics are stunning - I'm sure you're familiar Mo's art, in their games. Before you buy the game, just Schop around for a supported card.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[armanox]

Nothing in the GPL says that a program cannot have use DRM. I'm not sure where you got that idea, or that it would be "trivial to bypass Steam DRM on Linux." Steam itself is the DRM for most Valve games - you have to log into Steam before playing. Secondly, while certain members of the Linux community may be very anti-DRM, Linux is about freedom. That includes the freedom to install closed source software or DRMed software on your system.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Hellpop]

I was just Chopin for a new one. The Strauss of making the decision is killing me, but my old one is Schutz.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[tepples]

Right, because Steam gamers run off integrated gaphics. Moron.

What laptop video chipset isn't integrated? Or do you claim that nobody plays any Steam game on a laptop?

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Captain Splendid]

An interesting, if minority viewpoint. Still, anybody doing that knows what they're in for and has low expectations.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[spire3661]

How about a compromise? Missile Command emulated but controlled by a standalone arcade-grade trackball?

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[Captain Splendid]

Geeks don't compromise. That's what regular people do.

The otaku is not strong in this one....

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[fyrewulff]

Well obviously there's going to be DLC content. However, actual changes to the .exe need to be in the patch, and all their additions (hats and so on) need to be able to all fit into the 360's RAM.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[yukk]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's fine as long as you don't want that game as part of your Kernel (the Windows model)
Userland is anyone's playground as far as I know.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[mrchaotica]

Indeed, no true Scotsman plays Steam games on a laptop!

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[mrchaotica]

I thought you couldn't do DRM on Linux thanks to the GPL, so how exactly would that work? After all wouldn't it be trivial to bypass any Steam DRM on Linux, by simply intercepting whatever hooks they use?

You can't make the DRM effective (except in the case below), but the GPL permits you to try.

Also, since the Linux kernel is licensed using (specifically) version 2 of the GPL, DRM'd systems can be created using it by creating hardware that only runs particular signed versions. This bug in the license was exploited by TiVo, among others.

Re:Too Stupid To Handel Modern Graphics Hardware

[PincushionMan]

Yes. I installed Master of Orion 2 to a wine directory, then used DOSBox to make it work on Linux. Sound is wonky, I'm sure that's due to PolypAudio (oops, PulseAudio) rather than DOSBox.

A word of warning: GOG's CC billing server is in Cyprus, and your Credit/Debit card may get hit for converting US Dollars to US Dollars. The reasoning is that the bank is foreign, so there needs to be a surcharge. VISA, Mastercard and Discover are charging a 0.8 to 1.5% International Transaction Fees. Most banks are tacking and additional 1.0 to 3.5% extra to that fee, Bank of America and JP Chase are two of the highest offenders. Don't get me started on the $5 foreign ATM fees from those guys, also. Credit Unions, as of March 1st, 2010 have also started passing the VISA/MC fees directly on to their users. Sadly, PayPal is probably the way to go for US users. For those wondering, US Territories are considered foreign countries, so this list includes Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands.

Maybe it's not for playing per se

[mr_da3m0n]

There could still be a chance that the support there is only to launch dedicated servers easily, no? Or am I missing something?

Re:Maybe it's not for playing per se

[bucky0]

There's already a CLI-based steam client for linux to install dedicated servers though...

Re:Maybe it's not for playing per se

[silanea]

Sure there is. But once the Source engine is ported to OS X - or more precisely: to OpenGL - it should be trivial to bring any Source game to Linux, allowing Valve to tap into a market that is not yet all that large but virtually devoid of competition. Gaming on Linux is a chicken-and-egg type of problem: No games means low adoption (relative to the Windows market), low adoption means no games. This is Valve's chance to essentially establish a monopoly on an expanding platform with relatively little expenses. They would be stupid not to do it.

Re:Maybe it's not for playing per se

[eXlin]

Why would "traces" be in mac client then?

I can't see any logic to keep same script and even maybe common client base if meaning for linux is only for delicated server usage.

Excellent!

[TheNinjaroach]

I think this is excellent. TF2 already runs pretty great under Wine, I consistently get ~ 60FPS with max resolution and effects.Perhaps if they release a native port I can get closer to the 90FPS I can achieve with Windows.

Not that it really matters much at those rates, but on newer games that will push my hardware to the limits it could be the difference between 20 FPS and 30.

Re:Excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed.
There are plenty of devs who love Linux, and will support Steam's Linux venture with all we have. For me, this means buying every Steam game that has a Linux binary.
To be sure, some douche-nozzles will try to dissuade Valve, with flawed logic, from tapping into this market.
They better know better!

Hey Valve!
Quit reading Slashdot and get to work on the Linux Gaming press release! :D

Leaked HL2 Source Code told us this years back

[IchigoKyger]

If anyone here can remember back in the day when Half-Life 2 was coming out you should remember at one point the source code was leaked. I think I found it on a IRC and downloaded it. In that alone was build scripts and conditional syntax for Mac OS X and Linux Version. Granted they most likely have to overhaul that code because Mac OS X and Linux has changed greatly over the years. It just comes to show that Valve never forgot about poor Linux and Mac, they were just waiting for the right time.

drm on linux? no thanks.

[Truekaiser]

at the risk of burning karma i will post this.
I moved completely to linux to get away from drm of this kind. i admit steam is a somewhat successful digital distribution system but the drm they bundled with the games makes them too hard to swallow. requiring a constant internet so the games can phone home when needed, sorry offline mode only works a few times before steam refuses to run games until you get back online. along with removing your control of the installed files for the game by putting them in one big file, i have also heard rumors that it prevents you from making backups of the install files though i can't confirm this since i don't want to buy a steam powered game. Also the big push for online distribution also erks me because unlike a small minority of people /my/ isp complains when i download allot of data, it doesn't matter to them if it's legit or not.

I would not be surprised if it does come to linux but requires a kernel module to get the drm to work and prevent users from defeating it since on linux users are more in control of what their computers do then in windows which has long ceded that control company's that do this.

Re:drm on linux? no thanks.

[RobertLTux]

sorry offline mode only works a few times before steam refuses to run games until you get back online.
well since it has online stuff as part of the purpose it does want to "check in" with the servers every once in a while
  along with removing your control of the installed files for the game by putting them in one big file,
thats completely wrong as about 20 seconds at the steam site will show you

  i have also heard rumors that it prevents you from making backups of the install files though
also wrong in fact they have a whole article on how to backup your steamapps folder (mainly to enable moving it but...) again 20 seconds at the steam site

just need a stable emulator

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam already runs a lot of classic DOS-based games by using DOSBox, which
is available for linux. Those would certainly be released for steam
on linux as well.

If they get a stable, reliable windows emulation running, they could also
release more modern windows-based games, but I wouldn't expect any
good 3d acceleration.

Point is, you don't necessarily need the publishers to rebuild their games
to be linux native.

My pet Valve theory: edging towards a console

[mattbee]

They have a selection of their own games to port, they've moved to a cross-platform front-end - there's no reason they would care to build and test all their games on Linux just to sell to the few thousand geeks. Surely if they're putting effort into Linux, it's because they have a more popular Linux-based platform in mind - maybe their own, maybe Chrome OS, Android... but being the owner of a games platform like that without it being tied to expensive PCs, or to consoles with pricey gatekeepers, would be a major boost for Valve.

Alternatives, alternatives?

[h00manist]

I moved completely to linux to get away from drm of this kind.

The million-dollar question is, how to get more developers. It takes huge amounts of time to develop all software, games or whatever else, and the time needed grows exponentially with how good you want it to be. How to get programmers so much time, while they still manage to pay their bills. It's understood the software will not be for sale, so...

Administrators groupkit

[tepples]

Yes, but to get root access... That's not a Windows term, is it. Root is the Admin account on Unix-style systems

"Administrators groupkit" isn't as catchy.

32-bits?

[andrewagill]

PLATFORM=linux32

Seriously? It's 2010, and they're making it 32-bit? I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but 32-bit is rather limited these days.

Re:32-bits?

[ledow]

Yeah, really limited. Only over 50% of the machines running Steam only run 32-bit operating systems:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Such a limit when you have literally 100's of $5 and old-archive games on there, some of them running on DOSBox... however will those games cope with only 4Gb of addressable RAM?!!?!

Re:32-bits?

[shutdown -p now]

Most new Windows games are still 32-bit today.

Consider these requirements

[tepples]

If you (and I do mean you personally) are spending time doing that sort of tidying on your releases, then you're not working on paid tasks, and you are surplus to requirements.

Unless the requirements include 1. that trade secrets about future releases don't leak, and 2. that nothing more offensive than the video submitted to the rating agency ends up on the disc.

Two words: Hot Coffee

[tepples]

Companies normally don't include "clutter" and left over files in a release tree. Normally, you would have a carefully prepared and checked distribution tree, where every file is accounted for.

Then I guess Hot Coffee, the hidden unfinished sex minigame in one of the Grand Theft Auto games, wasn't "normal".

Re:Two words: Hot Coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isn't "normal", in fact it is "special", as in retarded.
Just like retards who released shareware in the 90s expecting to get rich, and included all the functionality in the shared binaries.
Guess what? Whatever you ship, the customer gets.

"Boss, we accidentally Tommy's body and $1M in the box of toys for the orphan kids we donated this morning."

Nitpick...

[sgtrock]

Just because it's naturally born as a Server OS doesn't mean it can't be brought to the masses at large, just like everything else it takes time.

You do know that Linux was born as a desktop OS, don't you? :)

Re:Nitpick...

[Fred_A]

You do know that Linux was born as a desktop OS, don't you? :)

Not to mention that it has its roots in Unix, probably the first system designed specifically to play games (in this case Space Travel).

Re:Nitpick...

[MZeora]

Oh my... It seems I have been mistaken. Thank you for correcting me (may this statement also apply to sqtrock in addition)

Linux jobs

[Enderandrew]

Didn't Valve post job listings two years ago looking for people to port Steam and Source to Mac and Linux? Wasn't that the biggest and most important clue that they intend to do these ports?

The Mac port became official. Should we be surprised there are hints they are working on the Linux port?

Give Up

[RockGrumbler]

How many times have we seen prototype code left for dead? I give this story a half-life of 1 or 2 days before Gabe counter strikes. The portal for a Linux gaming solution has passed, we might as well call this our day of deafeat. :( Team Fortress 2.

Year of the Linux Desktop

[DarthVain]

OK I said it.

But seriously though, a smart move by Valve if they can pull it off. There is an untapped market for real games on Linux. They would be the only game (pardon pun) in town, and many/any linux user would likely be more than happy to fork over money for games that run naively on Linux, particularly given the cost structure and the slick nature of remote distribution by Steam. I would even go so far to say that many, having saved 100-400$ by not having to buy a Windows OS, would justify or rationalize spending more on Valve games, and this is "Free" money (i.e. they saved it initially, so why not spend it on things that are fun, like games).

So while "Year of the Linux Desktop" it might not be, it is certainly a step in the right direction, as well as a step towards OS parity.

In another note, it might be interesting to see if this effects netbooks. Steam has a lot of independents, and smallish, low horsepower type games that are really cheap. Netbooks can only install stuff via networks (generally speaking). So think of a netbook, running Linux, and Steam, and using that service to install netbook friendly games onto netbooks. An interesting combination I think. Particularly given the low cost nature of all the above... low cost netbook, low cost linux, low cost gaming... Definatly a niche, but perhaps a very popular/profitable one. Look at iPhones for example.

More information

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that this gives more information:

http://www.valvesoftware.com/job-SenSoftEngineer.html

  Port Windows-based games to the Linux platform.

More evidence

[TheCycoONE]

http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux Probably helps the cause too. Phoronix has posted a new article: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODE3Mw

More information

[l4zynes]

http://www.valvesoftware.com/job-SenSoftEngineer.html

BEAT HAZARD!

[Ilsundal]

The opening game should be Beat Hazard if this manages to come together. :) How I've become so addicted to this Asteroids like Steam game that produces "levels" based on your individual mp3 tracks with pulsating visual feedback effects to nearly give anybody a seizure. Welcome Steam!

Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[tepples]

I would say that is a BIG yes considering that the RSX is based on the Nvidia 7800 and even the cheapest desktops I am building ATM come with the AMD 4xxx chips

You just pointed out one of the problems with PC graphics hardware right there: there isn't a number that a buyer can look at to see whether two products are even in the same ballpark as to performance. I have an old PC with a Radeon 9000, but 9000 > 7800, and 7800 > 4xxx. In fact, 7800 was the model number of an old Atari game console.

unless you are counting Intel which anybody who actually cared about graphics wouldn't.

I'm looking into small-form-factor gaming PCs. Should I buy or build?

I thought you couldn't do DRM on Linux thanks to the GPL

TiVo does DRM on Linux. GPLv2 allows this. Linux is GPLv2 and it won't be GPLv3 any time soon.

After all wouldn't it be trivial to bypass any Steam DRM on Linux, by simply intercepting whatever hooks they use?

I don't see why not. Mass copyright infringers bypass Steam DRM on Windows all the time.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[hairyfeet]

ATI had to do a number reset, as did Nvidia, simply because the numbers were getting too huge. It is actually pretty trivial to compare, simply look for the DirectX version. You can also search the net and find nice charts like this which will give you details like TDP which will help you make a more informed choice. With the bang for the buck firmly in the AMD camp right now that is what I use, and the easy rule there is 50>70>90, with the 50 being the budget (like my HD4650) followed by the 70 and the 90 being the hardcore chips. And of course for the ultra hardcore you have the X2, which is simply 2 GPUs.

If you are wanting a SFF gaming PC you would be MUCH better off building instead of buying. I have found unless you spend crazy money they tend to use cheaper parts in the SFF boxes and if you build it yourself you can get better choices on parts and CPU/GPU. If you don't mind the advice of an old greybeard PC builder I would probably go with a shuttle such as this one. Add a 95w Deneb quad, such as the 925 quad, along with one of the low power 5xxx GPUs, and you'd have a nice mini gaming rig. Unfortunately nearly all the "DVD player" styled boxes ATM are Atom based and Atom sucks. So unless you are simply wanting the biggest ePeen I'd look at a quad core AMD with an ATI 5xxx chip for graphics. That is what I've been building for my customers lately and they couldn't be happier with the performance or the power usage.

As for Linux and DRM, the way I always understood it is for DRM to have any kind of chance it has to have low level hooks that the user does NOT have access to, and of course since Linux allows you to get and recompile the source it would be pretty easy to have one person recompile a "DRM disabler" that feeds a false message to the DRM allowing it to run whenever. One of the other posters mentioned TiVo, but that is a "black box" where the DRM is enforced at the hardware level like a PS3 which of course doesn't work with a general purpose box like a PC. And as for steam itself being a form of DRM protection, most of the latest RAZR1911 games are actually Steam rips. So while steam has been bypassed on windows, with a much more "hacker friendly" OS like Linux I doubt it would take any time at all to bypass DRM, which is what I was getting at.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[tepples]

If you don't mind the advice of an old greybeard PC builder I would probably go with a shuttle such as [SA76G2]. Add a 95w Deneb quad, such as the 925 quad, along with one of the low power 5xxx GPUs, and you'd have a nice mini gaming rig.

So now how do I get decent SFF PCs into the hands of more people so that PC game publishers stop ignoring people who have a PC hooked up to a TV?

That is what I've been building for my customers lately

Do you build to ship, or do you just build for local customers? I could send business your way.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[yukk]

You know though, that games is one of the major lock-ins for Windows. If Steam was to start releasing Linux versions of games I think that would be the final key to allowing me and hopefully a whole community of folks like me to get rid of their last Windows box and go entirely Win free.
There have to be other people who have 1 Windows license for their best gaming hardware which would be much nicer as a *nix box.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[hairyfeet]

Sorry but getting PCs in more hands wouldn't do any good, because I believe it is ultimately about control. Since the days of code wheels game publishers have wanted to control the user's experience, and now with the x360 and the PS3 being always connected they have their wish. That is why I believe more and more game publishers are screwing over customers, because they'd like to drop their PC division but don't want to hear the shareholders scream. When they have run off enough customers they can say "See? PC games aren't profitable" and kill off their PC division. But until then there is always emulators and independent games.

And sorry again, but I prefer to be able to sit down with customers and design a machine that is right for their needs. Often I will sit them down and show them the individual parts online with the +/- of each choice, then once they have chosen exactly what is right for them they pay me for the parts, I build it and load it out with the OS and programs of their choice, and then get paid for my time (usually around $100-$150, depending on how many extras they want, such as full multimedia packages, office software, etc) on pickup of the PC.

So it would be awfully hard for me to set up a website and sell them that way, as I'd lose the one on one communication with the client, which is where the Value in VAR comes in my case. When I get done the PC is pretty much a "set it and forget it" device, with everything from registry cleaning and defrags to updates and codecs all fully loaded and ready to go, with everything done automatically for the user. I also take pride in my work and the fact that many PCs I built a decade ago are still being used by clients, simply passed down to relatives when they decide to get something newer. I get enough business from referrals I don't really need to advertise anymore, as one experience with some Dell or Best Buy "special" usually sends them straight to me,LOL!

But I'm sure you have a local PC builder/ repairman you just have to ask around. Just make sure he knows what he is doing, as there are some seriously bad builders out there, same as any profession. Ask some former customers and you'll get a good feel as to whether they take pride in their machines or not. I try to treat every customer like I would a member of my own family, so I don't sell cheapo junk or try to push them into higher priced packages. Could I make more money at it? Sure, but then I'd probably feel sleazy, pushing overpowered machines onto those that don't need it, and I'd rather sleep good at night. Sorry I can't help you out though.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[tepples]

But until then there is always emulators and independent games.

That's my problem. I want to start an independent game studio making video games in genres that are best experienced on a large monitor with friends on the sofa, but others have told me there aren't enough customers with HTPCs to make it viable.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[hairyfeet]

Bullshit! Go to the forums and sites dealing with HTPCs and DIY HTPCs and see how many folks are there, there are tons! The only thing you have to do is make sure the games degrade gracefully, as there is a ton of variation in HTPCs. I can tell you from my experience setting them up I have seen everything from an off lease IBM Netvista SFF, to the Atom based micro PCs, to a quad AMD, all used for HTPCs.

If you don't mind the advice of an old greybeard, here is what I would do. Set the minimum system requirements to what the mini HTPCs run, which IIRC is an Intel 965g. It don't have to be pretty on that chip, just playable. Then it would play with upgraded graphics on the ION and AMD Radeon onboards, and finally the best graphics would of course be reserved for those with a discrete GPU. You'll also have to make sure your game code will run on an Atom 230, which is about the minimum CPU I see in an HTPC. Oh I would also make sure your controller code worked with controllers plugged in via USB extender, since many HTPCs only have a couple of USB ports, and if you are gonna offer them 4 player goodness they need a way to plug in controllers.

Well there you have it. Once the game is done register at the many sites that cater to HTPC owners, and hype your game along with providing links to your website. The HTPC market may be a niche, but it is a decent sized niche, and one that has money. While you will never become another EA games catering to it, you CAN make a good living. So ignore the doubters and get making with the fun!

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[Yfrwlf]

Mostly agreed, and one could even dream of HTPCs taking a big piece of console market share, but as mentioned earlier you'd be competing with DRMed/controlled systems which are what the consoles are for the most part, so good luck DRMing things up or finding ways of making money off non-DRMed programs or open source games. But, at least there will always be open source games regardless!

I still like dreaming about pre-paid open source gaming collaborative networks, and for programs in general, but alas lack the point A to Z knowledge.

Re:Model numbers, SFF gaming PCs, TiVo, Steam DRM

[hairyfeet]

The key to making cash off the HTPC market with regards to gaming IMHO is this....Don't be a greedy piggy. I buy games all the time from GOG even though there are games on there like Fallout 1, which I just bought BTW, which can be had for free if you spend a little time searching the net!

So why did I buy it? simple, they make it easy and they aren't greedy, so it was literally easier to support GOG and buy from them that it was to search the net, find the game, try to get it to work on x64, etc. Folks like easy, and they like a good value. As long as you aren't greedy, or make them jump through a bunch of hoops (ala the nastier DRM) just to buy your game, folks will often just whip out their CC just for the convenience factor.

Will you ever become another EA games catering to a niche market? Highly doubtful but you CAN make more than enough money to keep your business going and make a decent living. It is all about finding your audience, finding out what they want and more importantly what they are willing to pay for, and catering to your market. So don't let the doubters get you down, as a PC builder I can tell you since Windows 7 HP came out HTPCs are getting more popular, with folks wanting to have the cool Windows 7 Media Center on their new LCD TVs. While it is doubtful you will become a millionaire selling games for HTPCs, with marketing and just plain old hard work you CAN become self sustaining while making a product that folks will pay for.

I've Only Been Doing This For 6 Years!

[denmarkw00t]

Too much wine make a man drunk, but just enough wine makes Steam run on Linux

Linux with more commercial support!

[Buttink]

THIS WOULD BE .... AMAZING! Granted, wine does already run most of the games but you have to admit its not as stable/fast as straight up native.

What an understatement

[DrYak]

but the fact that the dedicated servers will be happy to run in Linux means the core is already there, its just a matter of graphics support,

Except that, for a modern game, the "graphics support" is among where the biggest chunks of effort go in. And in the case of Source, these parts are highly dependent on an API which isn't portable at all - DirectX.
So, to finish porting Source to Linux, what you need is a massive rewrite of one of the biggest part of the code.
(From that point of view, id tech-based games have it easier, because they rely on the cross plat-form OpenGL to begin with).

At that point, it sounds almost easier to use winelib as a Direct3D-to-OpenGL wrapper, compile the linux native binaries against it and only rewrite the few remaining modules that need porting.
(Audio and Input come to mind as things which are also often DirectX-dependent and need porting. Although perhaps Valve has already moved their audio pipe-line to OpenAL - which also exist natively on Linux).

Re:What an understatement

[badkarmadayaccount]

Wouldn't it be more performant if you transform the PE/COFF executable to ELF, and rewrite syscalls to inlined winelib functions?

Re:What an understatement

[eXlin]

You are forgetting that valve's graphics engine is being ported to mac. Do i need to say what opengl support would mean for posibility of linux client?

It is to laugh, your posting

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies normally don't include "clutter" and left over files in a release tree.

What? You are totally on crack. The vast majority of shipped software from commercial enterprises includes unbelievable amounts of extraneous accumulated cruft. You must not have looked very hard.

ADP used to "accidentally" ship an entire, complete copy of Microsoft's MS-DOS 6.0 with their windows products. (I quoted "accidentally" because the products actually required certain MSDOS6 executables to run, such as attrib).

Commercial companies use multiple programmers and give functional authority to non-programmers who set release dates. Which is a guaranteed recipe for crufty code trees! Some of the open source projects aren't much better, though.

Other cross-platform engine

[DrYak]

Source would have a unique advantage over the other engines available currently (e.g. Unreal, Crytek) in that it would allow developers to reach as wide an audience as possible.

If you're going to cite big-name engines, perhaps one should also mention that Most of Id Software's engines have been ported to numerous platform since a very long time.
Well of course, it helps them a lot that since Doom (id Tech 1) the engines aren't even developed on DOS/Windows-based platforms (Doom was developed on Next machines) and since 3D acceleration was introduced with Quake1 (GLQuake to be more precise) the engines rely on a very cross-platform 3D API (OpenGL).
So cross-platform is actually part of their design, and recent titles (since Quake III) have been simultaneously available on multiple platform already at launch time.

Another engine, although less renown and less widely used, but which is multiplatform too and has been used for commercial titles is OGRE 3D.

Objective-C and such

[DrYak]

Do i need to say what opengl support would mean for posibility of linux client?

I do hope that the mac port won't depend too heavily on mac-only features like the various "XyZ-Kits" Obj-C APIs (it doesn't need to, and Valve has strong incentive to use more generic APIs, as this would make further console ports a much lower hanging fruit).

But if this turns out to succeed, a future Linux port is getting much more attainable because of this DirectX-to-OpenGL conversion than it was before with the Linux server-only binary.

Now we also have to hope that this OpenGL engine will be as actively maintained and as feature-complete as the DirectX one. (This again would make sense, because the engine will then be accessible to a much larger market : Macs, Consoles, Linux, etc.)

But maintaining 2 different back-ends, and keeping them feature-equivalent is a hard task. (That was 1 among the reasons why software developers moved away from supporting Glide/OpenGL/other.. to DirectX-only or OpenGL-only)
Hopefully Valve *does* have the resources to do it and have a strong incentive to do it (Mac and specially Console support, in addition to the often overlooked Linux).

And once their engine is ported, lots of games relying on it either get insta-magic support, or support at minimal porting costs.
And lots of Linux-powered Netbook get games that could be played to kill time while commuting.