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For Normals, Jobs' "Retina Display" Claim May Be Fair After All

The Bad Astronomer writes "AT WWDC, Steve Jobs claimed that the iPhone 4's display has about the same resolution as the human eye — held at one foot away, the iPhone 4's pixels are too small to see. After reading an earlier Slashdot post about an expert disputing Jobs' claim, I decided to run the numbers myself. I found that Jobs is correct for people with normal vision, and the expert was using numbers for theoretically perfect vision. So to most people, the iPhone 4 display will look unpixellated."

386 comments

  1. So It's catching my droid then? by Skarecrow77 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    i'm holding my droid at 1 foot distance and I can't distinguish any single pixel. I have to get it to about 3-4 inches to do so convincingly.

    Granted, anti-aliased fonts help a ton.

    1. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by ohcrapitssteve · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I consider myself to have pretty good eye-sight, if not 20/20 (no glasses/lenses) and I really can't see a pixel on my iPhone 3G from a measured foot away either. I can from about 3" though. If Apple's going to increase the pixel count by four-fold, I don't think I'll ever see a pixel again...

    2. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by rcuhljr · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Yeah am I missing something? I really can't spot pixels in normal usage on my droid, even getting it closer than is comfortable.

    3. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by tooyoung · · Score: 1

      If your Droid has more pixels per square inch, then yes, the iPhone is slowly catching up to your Droid.

    4. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Do you actually have to have it only 3" away to distinguish pixels, or is that how close you have to be to see the dark wireframe between them?

    5. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Mark19960 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why is parent modded 0, troll?
      Because the Apple fanboys are upset that people with Droids can't see pixels at 1 foot either?
      Truth hurts, doesn't it?

    6. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We're not talking about distinguishing pixels in arbitrary display images, least of all anti-aliased fonts (whose very point is to conceal pixelation).

      We're talking about optical resolution here, so load some 1px pitch black/white patterns (e.g. http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php) and see at what distance you see gray instead of lines/checks/whatever.

    7. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by DMorritt · · Score: 0

      Why is the above marked a Troll? Are all ./ mod points now just spent marking anything that's not funny a Troll? I have an Android phone with 480*320 resolution and it doesn't seem overly pixellated at ~1 foot, maybe (definitely) not as smooth as the new Apple displays though. Seems that anything *not* sucking off Apple gets a "Troll" status nowadays. Lets see this get rated down too... (clearly correct marking would be "offtopic")

    8. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      It gets even funnier than that. My understanding is that human visual acuity varies, significantly, based on what colors you're looking at too. Your black/white pattern experiment might produce very different results from a multi-color image/pattern.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    9. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 1

      The first thing I noticed when I got a Motorola Droid was that I could actually read the text on the browser page at the default size without zooming in. With my iPhone 3G the text was usually pretty blurry and pixelated from the low resolution screen when trying to display really small font sizes like a page full of text. I think that alone was one of the things that I loved about switching to the Droid... I could actually read a page without constantly zooming in and scrolling around like a half-blind man with his magnifying glass trying to read the newspaper.

    10. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a matter of fact, a B&W pattern is best for testing the limits of visual acuity. Rod cells (which sense only intensity) are more tightly packed on the retina than cone cells (which sense color). As for colors, IIRC the order from most to least acute is green, blue, red.

      Lots of image and video compression formats take advantage of this by transforming the image to a colorspace which separates chroma (color information) from luminance (intensity). They can keep full resolution in the luminance channel and discard information in the color channels without appreciably harming perceived resolution, especially for video. Freeze frame a DVD and look for something bright red against a dark background... inspect it close and you're almost sure to notice much larger jaggies than you would for a white object in the same place.

    11. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to a typical /. apple thread, full of insightful ACs but modded troll by fanbois.

    12. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by E+IS+mC(Square) · · Score: 0

      The price you have to pay if you don't masturbate with rest of the apple fanbois on /. - I have been serial-down-modded so many times...

    13. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by konohitowa · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The price you have to pay if you don't masturbate with rest of the apple fanbois on /. - I have been serial-down-modded so many times...

      You're just circling the wagons so no one will suspect that you've actually been masturbating with the rest of the apple fanbois. You guys pony up for some iLotion?

    14. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Rodyland · · Score: 3, Informative

      Thing is, 20-20 vision isn't that good. Have you ever actually taken a good look at the chart that determines what 20-20 vision is?

      It's normally 3rd or 4th from the bottom of the chart. I am shortsighted, and with my glasses on I could still read the bottom line on my most recent eye test, a few months back.

      Calling 20-20 vision "normal" in this discussion is misleading at best, dishonest at worst. Especially since the author quotes Wikipedia, which says, and I quote: The significance of the 20/20 standard can best be thought of as the lower limit of normal or as a screening cutoff. When used as a screening test subjects that reach this level need no further investigation, even though the average visual acuity of healthy eyes is 20/16 to 20/12.

      So there you have it, 20/20 isn't "normal", it's the bottom end of what is generally considered to be "normal" and below which one considers corrective vision (my words there).

      True "normal" vision is more like 20/16 or 20/12, which gives a resolution of more like 0.8 to 0.6 arcmin - closer to the figures in the original article than in this one, making the original article more truthful than this one, and validating (to me at least) the accusation that Jobs' claim is hyperbole.

    15. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why is parent modded 0, troll? Because the Apple fanboys are upset that people with Droids can't see pixels at 1 foot either? Truth hurts, doesn't it?

      Funny, my interpretation was that the undeserved troll mod came from an Apple Hater who didn't like the implication that Jobs might have been right.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    16. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Macrat · · Score: 1

      I am shortsighted, and with my glasses on I could still read the bottom line on my most recent eye test, a few months back.

      Isn't that the primary function of glasses?

    17. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Rodyland · · Score: 1

      I am shortsighted, and with my glasses on I could still read the bottom line on my most recent eye test, a few months back.

      Isn't that the primary function of glasses?

      Yes, of course. But if 20-20 were truly "normal" then one would expect my corrected vision to be 20-20. The fact that it is two or three levels better (and believe me, that makes a big difference for distance vision) again suggests that 20-20 isn't "normal". Again, 20-20 is the minimum below which you consider corrective vision.

      According to wikipedia average visual acuity of healthy eyes is 20/16 to 20/12

    18. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Macrat · · Score: 1

      According to wikipedia average visual acuity of healthy eyes is 20/16 to 20/12

      All hail the holy wikipedia

    19. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm nearsighted, so I often use my Ipod Touch without glasses at 8-10 inches. While I can't reliably focus on individual pixels, the pixel grid is certainly visible, as are other kinds of pixelation artefacts.

    20. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that the scale is based on (ft of distance that you can read correctly)/(ft of distance for a "normal person" to read correctly). So everyone here can understand it is not uncommon for a person who just recently had corrective lenses prescribed and is wearing them to achieve 20/15 or possibly even 20/10.

    21. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post has to be the best example of confirmation bias that I've read in a long time.

    22. Re:So It's catching my droid then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I had my last eye exam, I found out that I don't need glasses - but that I could benefit from them. I had 20/15 effective vision, but the doctor gave me a prescription for glasses that would improve my eyesight to the theoretical maximum (a figure mathematically derived) possible for my eyes. With glasses, my eyesight is now around 20/10.

      I thought it was the coolest thing that he could actually compute the best possible vision I could have and make it happen. It's one of the neatest examples of applied science I've ever seen (so to speak!).

  2. I wear bifocals... by Eggz+Factor · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... will it look even better for me?

    --
    blah, blah, blah...
    1. Re:I wear bifocals... by eln · · Score: 1

      Hell, my eyes have been slowly irradiated into mush from decades of CRT usage, so I assume I'll be able to hold that phone two inches from my face without seeing any pixels.

    2. Re:I wear bifocals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holding my Iphone up next to my new Evo, the Iphone screen looks like crap in comparison, all pixelated.

      Basically this "new" retina screen is going to make the new Iphone competitive with the oled screens. Although the evo's screen is still way larger and doesn't require zooming to read text... My old Iphone feels like a small toy compared to the evo, and its hard to go back with everything so tiny.

    3. Re:I wear bifocals... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Holding my Iphone up next to my new Evo, the Iphone screen looks like crap in comparison, all pixelated.

      Indeed - it's worth noting that all the Iphone models today have a low resolution. Even my 2 year old low end 5800 has a significantly higher resolution.

      I find it notable that we've suddenly got all this hype and fanfare about resolution being important, now that a future announced Iphone phone will have a high resolution! Funny how that wasn't considered important until now... But yes, as you say it's really just catching up with what other phones already have (much like the 3G release, etc). (And before anyone says the Iphone's new resolution is higher than most current phones, remember that it's not released - obviously one would expect future phones to have higher resolutions.)

  3. Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's still marketing drivel along the lines of "blast processing". Wholly unnecessary...just tell us the resolution, Jobsy. No need to spice it up, the specs should speak for themselves.

    1. Re:Wrong or right by al3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Specs might speak to the slashdot crowd, but I think Apple owes a lot of its success to a realizing that most consumers buy benefits, not features. The endless list of would-be iPod/iPhone killers that touted better features but failed to have an impact in the market are evidence of this.

    2. Re:Wrong or right by Em+Emalb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I dunno, the average joe wouldn't know what the hell Jobs was talking about.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    3. Re:Wrong or right by Fnkmaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, the Android phones have been having quite an impact in the market recently. The big benefit of "being able to run the software you want rather than what Steve Jobs says you can run" seems to speak to people, since that's the major thing Android has going for it that the iPhone doesn't.

    4. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Again though, why the use of meaningless words? Couldn't he have just said "the resolution/DPI is so dense that your eyes won't be able to distinguish individual pixels"? What, does the average Apple customer really seek the need of some special word to wrap up the device's capabilities in? And if they do, what does that say about their average customer?

      I think it's insulting to the people that buy Apple's products, regardless of whether people seek it out or not.

    5. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In what way is "retina" a special word? Are you some kind of retard?

      And I can just imagine the marketing division that would go up to the CEO of any company and say "You know what you should say in the big keynote speech? The resolution or dots per inch on this cellphone is so dense that one will not be able to distinguish one pixel from its neighbouring pixels. They'd all get sacked, and rightly so.

    6. Re:Wrong or right by localman57 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "the resolution/DPI is so dense that your eyes won't be able to distinguish individual pixels"(TM). OR...


      "Retina Display"(TM).

    7. Re:Wrong or right by Robin47 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Again though, why the use of meaningless words? Couldn't he have just said "the resolution/DPI is so dense that your eyes won't be able to distinguish individual pixels"? What, does the average Apple customer really seek the need of some special word to wrap up the device's capabilities in? And if they do, what does that say about their average customer?

      I think it's insulting to the people that buy Apple's products, regardless of whether people seek it out or not.

      Because you sell the sizzle, not the steak.

    8. Re:Wrong or right by vakuona · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think Android's popularity might have more to do with it being available on more devices, including much cheaper devices. Even then, the single model iPhone is still outselling it (counting different capacity iPhones as one model of course). You overestimate the average consumer's ability to care about things such as being able to run software from anywhere.

    9. Re:Wrong or right by NekSnappa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you're taking it too far with this statement.

      The big benefit of "being able to run the software you want rather than what Steve Jobs says you can run" seems to speak to people

      I'd say it's more of case of letting people know that Android phones do apps too. Joe or Jane Average could care less that the apps aren't "curated" in the "walled garden." They just want to know if the phone does apps, and how easy is it to get them.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    10. Re:Wrong or right by mugnyte · · Score: 1

        right on, sir! exactly what i was going to say.

    11. Re:Wrong or right by vakuona · · Score: 1

      Giving a feature a name is a good way to market the feature. It's not a special word. It's a name. Just like samsung makes a big deal about having AMOLED screens, or Philips markets TVs with a PixelPlus feature. It allows you to talk about the feature without boring your audience with technical details. And it's pretty good naming. It's easy for the audience to make the connection between the human retina and the screen, so Apple is creating a good association between the device and the name. The only thing it says about their average customer is that they are not nerds, and want the device's benefits explained to them in an easy way, and do not really care for the technical jargon.

    12. Re:Wrong or right by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Or Sony's "Emotion Engine".

    13. Re:Wrong or right by Draek · · Score: 1

      Much like how Windows 95's success relative to MacOS proved most customers prefer a green background rather than a blue one?

      If you want to argue that many consumers are scared by endless lists of technical data they don't understand then I'd agree with you, but your argument to support your assertion just sucks.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    14. Re:Wrong or right by Wuhao · · Score: 1

      The difference here is that "blast processing" was a vague, nebulous term that was never really elaborated on, and this is a very specific technical specification (the iPhone 4's 326 ppi screen), and is being compared against a reasonably specific reference metric (the sensitivity of the human eye). The practical upshot of this is that once you have a display whose pixels are so small that at a normal viewing distance nearly all of the population will be unable to distinguish neighboring pixels from each other, there is very little use in further improving resolution without also increasing screen size.

      Do the specs speak for themselves? No, they don't, because while 326ppi makes perfect sense to me, I don't know anything about the maximum sensitivity of the human eye, and I'm interested to hear where that bar is set, whether this display really exceeds that, and what caveats I should be aware of in taking this metric into consideration when selecting screens for my own use.

      Whether or not the iPhone 4 in particular meets this goal only of mild interest; it's a case study of a device that literally claims to be designed to have a higher resolution than the eye can distinguish. If it doesn't hit the mark, there's going to be a display that will come closer soon, and I'd like to be able to talk more knowledgeably about what this means.

    15. Re:Wrong or right by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      You overestimate the average consumer's ability to care about things such as being able to run software from anywhere

      Exactly, for the average person there are more than enough iPhone apps to do everything they care to do. Though I do prefer my blackberry, because I need a real network with proper service availability even in the sticks and also a querty keyboard is a must -- and please, fanbois, restrain yourselves from telling me yet again how great the onscreen keyboard is on your iPhone. I've tried it, and sorry but you're absolutely wrong about that.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    16. Re:Wrong or right by schon · · Score: 1

      most consumers buy benefits, not features.

      You are provably wrong.

      The endless list of would-be iPod/iPhone killers that touted better features but failed to have an impact in the market are evidence of this.

      Evidence of what?

    17. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1, Troll

      In what way is "retina" a special word? Are you some kind of retard?

      Possibly. I've been called worse.

      And I can just imagine the marketing division that would go up to the CEO of any company and say "You know what you should say in the big keynote speech? The resolution or dots per inch on this cellphone is so dense that one will not be able to distinguish one pixel from its neighbouring pixels. They'd all get sacked, and rightly so.

      I think this speaks poorly of the general public, not the marketing department.

      People wouldn't do shit like this if it didn't work. The fact that it works is disparaging enough, let alone the fact that people take advantage of it.

    18. Re:Wrong or right by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Well, the Android phones have been having quite an impact in the market recently. The big benefit of "being able to run the network you want rather than what Steve Jobs says you can run" seems to speak to people, since that's the major thing Android has going for it that the iPhone doesn't.

      Apple went with the provider that paid them $400 / handset, and used frequencies that made it easy for them to use the same hardware on both sides of the ocean. It is worth noting, that suing this model they essentially sold a subsidized phone for $500+, this was a massive amount of money. In exchange they limited there customers to a point, I would be willing to be, that in a different universe, where the iPhonewas available on all US networks, there would be no Android.

      Apple would have given up a lot of money for a while though (about $100 - $200/phone bringing it down to a typical phone subsidy from the $400 they get from AT&T).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    19. Re:Wrong or right by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Yes. The willfully ignorant love meaningless marketing drivel.

      OTOH, you can easily beat up on iDevices using the exact same sort of "benefits" driven arguments.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    20. Re:Wrong or right by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...too true.

      "What's a retina?"

      That's probably just as geeky to the average "consumer" as throwing pixel/DPI information at them.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    21. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Because you sell the sizzle, not the steak.

      Which, as I've said before, speaks poorly of the average consumer. I don't know about you, but I don't sizzle. I eat steak. I don't care if it makes noise or not, I care if it tastes good.

    22. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this speaks poorly of the general public, not the marketing department.

      People wouldn't do shit like this if it didn't work. The fact that it works is disparaging enough, let alone the fact that people take advantage of it.


      And yet I can absolutely assure you with 100% accuracy that there are instances where you do this exact same thing when dealing with fields with which you are not intimately familiar. I can guarantee that you refer to something every now and then by a simplified term that was developed purely for marketing reasons.

    23. Re:Wrong or right by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The only reason my friends have cited for eschewing iPhone and going Android when it came out is "It's not AT&T". They think of Android phones as iPhones that work on other networks.

    24. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      The difference here is that "blast processing" was a vague, nebulous term that was never really elaborated on,

      Oh really?

      "Sega's advertising continued to position the Genesis as the "cooler" console, and at one point in its campaign, it used the term "Blast Processing" to suggest that the processing capabilities of the Genesis were far greater than those of the SNES."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Drive#Console_wars, with the source cited as coming from 1up.com

      Do the specs speak for themselves? No, they don't, because while 326ppi makes perfect sense to me, I don't know anything about the maximum sensitivity of the human eye, and I'm interested to hear where that bar is set, whether this display really exceeds that, and what caveats I should be aware of in taking this metric into consideration when selecting screens for my own use.

      Placebo effect. Do you honestly think the average, non-technical person would notice this detail about the display had Jobs not said anything?

      Having a beautiful, smooth screen isn't enough. People have to be told their eyes can't even tell how awesome it is to make it worth it. That's just fucking sad.

    25. Re:Wrong or right by Albatrosses · · Score: 1

      That's true, and I agree 100%, but unfortunately people like you and I are vastly in the minority.

    26. Re:Wrong or right by e4g4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think Android's popularity might have more to do with it being available on a network other than AT&T.

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    27. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 0, Troll

      I can guarantee that you refer to something every now and then by a simplified term that was developed purely for marketing reasons.

      Ignorance, yes. marketing reasons, no. A perfect example would be the fractures I suffered to my wrists a few years ago. I've referred to them as navicular fractures, because that is what they are called...despite the fact that navicular bones are in your foot.

      Unless you consider that marketing, then the answer to your question is no. Copiers aren't Xerox machines, tissues aren't Kleenex, and cotton swabs aren't Q-tips. The Genesis didn't "blast" the SNES with its processing, Strontium Units should never have been called Sunshine Units, and the iPhone's new screen should be referred to as a nice looking display...not a part of your fucking eye.

    28. Re:Wrong or right by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "the resolution/DPI is so dense that your eyes won't be able to distinguish individual pixels"

      These are the words the average person does not understand:
      -resolution
      -DPI
      -pixels

      These are the words the average person isn't sure about:
      -dense
      -distinguish
      -individual

      That leaves the description as:
      "the is so that your eyes won't be able to"

      I think Steve will stick with Retina Display
      Just as meaningless as your suggestion but 80% shorter, and it has marketing zing.

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
    29. Re:Wrong or right by localman57 · · Score: 1

      If you want the steak, you need the sizzle. Products only come to market if there's a sufficient market there to come to. Far to many great technical ideas and products have come to market and failed because no one was able to show the sizzle.

    30. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      If you want the steak, you need the sizzle. Products only come to market if there's a sufficient market there to come to. Far to many great technical ideas and products have come to market and failed because no one was able to show the sizzle.

      In keeping with the analogy, a fresh turd still sizzles if you put it on a grill...but it won't taste nearly as good as a high-quality steak.

    31. Re:Wrong or right by MachineShedFred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why is this a hard thing to suss out? Branding sells to the uninformed, or willingly ignorant.

      A normal person who just wants a kickass phone doesn't want to compare DPI or arcmin numbers, they want to see a colorful badge and a swanky trademark along with something that is obviously better than the competing device next to it, whether they know it or not.

      Calling something a mouthful of numbers and acronyms, such as "a 326 DPI LCD panel", isn't going to get nearly the consumer attention as a "Retina Display" will.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    32. Re:Wrong or right by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Android needs to do a spoof of the Superbowl commercial fake Steve denying app after app on the jumbo screen until a hammer is thrown threw it.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    33. Re:Wrong or right by MachineShedFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think this speaks poorly of the general public

      The general public doesn't give a damn about DPI numbers, nor should they. They care about something that gives them value for their dollars, and marketing is all about conveying the value.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    34. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      True...after all, if people are willing to buy something like this...

    35. Re:Wrong or right by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Placebo effect. Do you honestly think the average, non-technical person would notice this detail about the display had Jobs not said anything?

      Yes.

      At the least they would realize it's a better looking display...which is the point.

    36. Re:Wrong or right by umghhh · · Score: 1

      the individual Joe would not buy his phone either which may be a sign of common sense.

    37. Re:Wrong or right by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      The big benefit of "being able to run the software you want rather than what Steve Jobs says you can run" seems to speak to people, since that's the major thing Android has going for it that the iPhone doesn't.

      Yea but Steve and I have the same taste in software. So it doesn't really bother me that much...

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    38. Re:Wrong or right by SiChemist · · Score: 1, Interesting

      For me, it was the fact that android isn't tied to that software catastrophe iTunes. I switched from AT&T to Verizon for the Motorola Droid.

    39. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 0

      They care about something that gives them value for their dollars, and marketing is all about conveying the value.

      you mean like meaningless words? In keeping things simple, why use something like "Retina Display" that requires an explanation, when they could have just called it "Brilliant Display", or "Gorgeous Display", or any other dozens of adjectives that convey a clear, crisp screen?

      I understand that marketing-driven words work...my point is that they shouldn't.

    40. Re:Wrong or right by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually no.
      Maybe for the people that are buying the Nexus 1 but 99% of all the people that buy the iphone or Android phone have no idea that the Apple store is restricted.
      People are buying Android phones because.
      1. They are not on AT&T let's face it but the Backflip does suck as an Android phone.
      2. They are on Verizon and the Droid ads are soo cool.
      3. They don't want a Blackberry,
      4. The Palm ads where too creepy.
      5. Windows Mobile? what is that?
      6. Nokia? do they still make those (US only)

      I have an Android phone. I got it because I wanted an Android phone and I really don't like AT&Ts pricing and coverage in my area.
      I do like Sprints so I got a Samsung Moment.
      Would I have gotten an iPhone? Sure if it was on Sprint and I could get the good plan that I am on. Frankly I can not run all the software I want on my Android because some of it has not been ported. The iPhone does have more games than my Android.
      Frankly the restrictions on what goes into the app store really doesn't effect most users and they really don't care.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    41. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Yes. At the least they would realize it's a better looking display...which is the point.

      Which proves my point that it's meaningless, unecessary marketing drivel. If people would have noticed, why put an official stamp on it? Why not just say "look at how awesome this looks!"

      Like I said earlier in the thread...let the device speak for itself.

    42. Re:Wrong or right by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is called marketing.
      Tell you what. Show me where their is a turbine on an Intel I7 and how it speeds up the CPU when you use Intel's Turbo Boost technology and I will all bent out of shape over Apple's Retina display.
      It is market speak and it is everywhere. It usually only bugs you if you don't like the product, the company, or know how stuff really works.
      Frankly I just tune it all out and don't let it bother me anymore.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    43. Re:Wrong or right by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      640K is enough for everybody.

    44. Re:Wrong or right by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because you think the average person is a moron.

      Bill Hicks was right, marketing folks do us all a favor and end yourselves now.

    45. Re:Wrong or right by jargoone · · Score: 1

      I hate "me too" posts, but, me too. Trying unsuccessfully for an hour the other night to copy a fucking movie to my iPhone pushed me over the edge. I'm counting down the days until my contract is up.

    46. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad I don't know you

      You seem like a pretenious prick.

    47. Re:Wrong or right by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that you can get Android phones Buy-One-Get-One. People just love their BOGOs.

    48. Re:Wrong or right by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      I don't care about tinkering with my phone and I do own an iPhone. One of the first things I look at is build quality. To this day, it still gets me that almost none of the PC manufacturers even attempts to catch up to Apple in this - the first impression of an apple computer is extremely nice while most PC desktops you still have a behemoth tower that hasn't changed much since the early-mid 90s and the notebooks are hunks of plastic. Well, Dell tried with the Adamo but it's not really available in store and is freakn ugly.

      The same thing with phones. The iphone edge to edge glass gives an extremely good impression and it has a single, intuitive button. OTOH, for there being a ton of android models, the ones I have seen have that cheap plastic look and cheap plastic buttons (plastic does not have to look cheap but these do) - 4 of which which are pretty confusing to an iPhone user (iPhone also has multiple buttons in reality but the rest are hidden on the side and manipulate the device itself, not the programs). It also has that sunken plastic screen that Apple did away with around 2007 with the iPhone and I don't know when edge to edge glass appear on its Mac models although it makes the sunken plastic screen appear dated.

      That said there would be one important thing for me and that is having an unlocked phone. I'm an international traveler but with only select countries. AT&T rapes me for international roaming calls and triply so for international roaming data. We're not talking about esoteric countries like Nigeria either, but Germany, France, etcetera. In my old razrs, I just popped out my american sim and put in a prepaid sim of that country. It worked like a charm. I heard that even unlocked iPhone from other countries are locked to those countries sim cards making them useless. I don't know what Apple is thinking, but it's current policies are extremely stupid and for a phone that should be your assistant, it seems AT&T owns my phone more than me. I could understand if I WANTED a subsidized phone, but I'm willing to pay the unsubsidized but they won't offer it. Once I'm off my contract, I'm probably going to look for an android if it hasn't changed, I'm sure there are enough manufacturers willing to sell me an unlocked phone.

    49. Re:Wrong or right by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      You and I can both be furious that marketing pratts spend hours sitting around coming up with clever words and phrases to trademark and use to sell a product. But it's going to keep happening, especially in a company as dominated by it's marketing department as Apple.

      We need to just move on. That crap isn't meant for us, and the kind of damn fools for which it matters are irrelevant.

    50. Re:Wrong or right by dropadrop · · Score: 1

      You overestimate the average consumer's ability to care about things such as being able to run software from anywhere.

      I'm more worried about what happens with all the software I purchased if I decide to try Android or Maemo after my iPhone. I could give it to a friend, but I can't. I'm surprised nobody talks about this, but in a year or two I assume a lot of people will. I am quite happy with the iPhone, but I'm not sure I want to continue using as much money on apps after this crossed my mind.

    51. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      I'm glad I don't know you

      You seem like a pretenious prick.

      I'm still a sheeple consumer...I still go to the movies, buy clothes from brand-name retailers, buy video games, buy comics, buy music, etc...I just choose to buy them because they interest me, not because someone in a suit tried to figure out a way to convince me to buy them. I do my research, find something that matches up with what I'm looking for, and go out and get it.

      Making my buying decisions based on what I want and not on marketingspeak makes me a prick? How do you figure?

    52. Re:Wrong or right by Naturalis+Philosopho · · Score: 0, Troll

      I understand that marketing-driven words work...my point is that they shouldn't.

      Huh? Is this a philosophy of yours that has rules about how humans should and should not behave? Or how the marketing words should or should not behave? 'Cause it seems to me like marketing works on a large percentage of the population directly, influences nearly everyone whether they want it to or not, and that's just a fact. Facts happen, saying that marketing "shouldn't" work is like saying that gravity shouldn't work. It does, deal with it.

      Words, BTW, are almost never "meaningless". We can disagree on the meaning, twist them, play with them, and even misuse them to trick people, but they do mean something; maybe just not what you'd like them to. One good thing about Apple using "Retina" may be that it can be used as a reference resolution to compare other devices to.

    53. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 0

      Huh? Is this a philosophy of yours that has rules about how humans should and should not behave?

      No, it's just my opinion. Calm down.

      'Cause it seems to me like marketing works on a large percentage of the population directly, influences nearly everyone whether they want it to or not, and that's just a fact.

      And if I had four wheels, I'd be a wagon.

      Facts happen, saying that marketing "shouldn't" work is like saying that gravity shouldn't work. It does, deal with it.

      I'm still allowed to express my opinion, aren't I? What, do I need a disclaimer before every post I make or something?

      Words, BTW, are almost never "meaningless". We can disagree on the meaning, twist them, play with them, and even misuse them to trick people, but they do mean something; maybe just not what you'd like them to.

      Fair enough.

      One good thing about Apple using "Retina" may be that it can be used as a reference resolution to compare other devices to.

      So I guess HTC is going to be releasing the "Iris" display next? Or maybe the "Cornea" display?

    54. Re:Wrong or right by Wovel · · Score: 1

      Android itself can not be advertised. Perhaps a branding message as you suggest, but never a functionality or feature message. The necessary explanation of the fragmentation would scare everyone away.

    55. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "iPhone killers" is silly. Why would Android manufacturers aim for second place?

      Isn't it amusing that Blackberries dominate both in the smartphone arena? After all, they're completely unsexy, have an outdated, clunky OS, web browser and UI yet offer business user the most relevent benefits, explaining why they outsell everyone else and proving you don't have have the most features or the best specs, just the right ones.

    56. Re:Wrong or right by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      The real problem is going to be "does it run *this* app". It's the same problem macs have had for years.

      There are plenty of great programs on Android, but the game selection especially is nowhere close to as good as on the iOS devices.

    57. Re:Wrong or right by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Since I'm looking for a new phone these days, I happen to read a fair few mobile phone forums, and I can guarantee you that Android phones are very popular in countries with no AT&T at all (and Iphone available through most carriers). The last few months, far more popular than the Iphone, even though the press has been constantly oohing and aahing about everything Apple for a very long time. I was just reading a thread started by a phone salesman who complained that the only thing the Iphone customers care about is fashion ... with the new backplate being a more important feature than the display.

      Having said that, it's a bit silly how the mobile world is turning into a new Atari vs Amiga computer war, when there are many other interesting options out there. Samsung's Wave (Bada) looks like a very good deal (with a slightly lower-res screen with far better contrast than the Retina display, for instance), Nokia's N900 (Maemo) has a strong geek following, in addition to all the good phones on the still pretty functional Symbian platform.

    58. Re:Wrong or right by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      It's not like anything was hidden or obscured, he did tell us the resolution very clearly, displayed in HUGE text behind him during the keynote - 326 ppi.

      http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/apple-wwdc-2010-179-rm-eng-1276194052.jpg

      What more do you want? If you don't like to see examples of marketing, you should probably go live in a cave (and a very remote one at that, caves are very marketable these days...)

    59. Re:Wrong or right by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      I actually like how Android works, and for plenty of my friends its the first smart phone they've ever had.

      The fact that Android in general presentation comes off as pretty polished (it has a functioning app store, a bunch of choices to download music and videos etc) smooth environment certainly helps.

    60. Re:Wrong or right by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      and it being easy to root your device with less risk of permanently bricking it, and not becomign a slave to Apple iTunes app store and music DRM

    61. Re:Wrong or right by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>I think Apple owes a lot of its success to a realizing that most consumers [don't understand technical specs]

      There. Fixed that for you. This is why communications majors loved the Macs so much from the 1980s onward - it was filled with pretty pictures and nary a C: or DIR or any other confusing stuff in sight. "Retina display" is something they (and the general public) can grasp.

      As for the article - I don't think we should dumb down our technology for "normals" ability. Most of these "normals" think a 128 kbit/s MP3 sounds great, but for those of us with discernment it sounds like a screeching, mosquito-laden mess. I'd sooner have the 340 kbit/s MP3. Likewise I'd rather have a 640 pixel/inch screen than a 320 ppi screen where I can see the dots.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    62. Re:Wrong or right by cyber-dragon.net · · Score: 4, Informative

      you don't like iTunes that's fine... but what rock have you been hiding under that you don't know Apple removed the DRM the second they were allowed to?

    63. Re:Wrong or right by al3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just because phone tech specs aren't a person's field of expertise, doesn't mean they shouldn't be helped to understand why they should care about something. There are plenty of things you don't understand the technical details about, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't try to put it in terms you understand before expecting you to make an informed decision.

      When you hear "over 300ppi" you understand the benefit without having it put into more simple terms. Why not give someone, who might enjoy the product as much (or more) than you, the same chance to understand what they're buying without doing hours of research?

    64. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh Bling Tischerr, you're such a predictable troll.

    65. Re:Wrong or right by MachineShedFred · · Score: 0

      Why use something that requires and explanation? Because it requires and explanation.

      If potential buyers are asking questions, they are interested buyers, and you're that much closer to a sale. That's how it works.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    66. Re:Wrong or right by umdenken · · Score: 1

      The best, most insightful and succinct post I've read in a while.

    67. Re:Wrong or right by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Your posts in this thread lead me to believe you lack either empathy or basic understanding of human psychology (or both--is it the same thing??)

      What's the point in bitching about the fact that a company came up with a term to describe a new product that is loosely based on physics? ie, what are you getting out of this conversation? Do you realize how much you are playing into Apple's hands by spending so much time talking about this product? They LOVE the fact that people are writing articles about their new screen and discussing it weeks before it's even out.

      Compare to the Androids where it's a different model every several months that people (mostly the nerd demographic as far as I can tell? I'
      m judging this off of advertising campaigns as well) lust after.

      And there, THAT is the point.

    68. Re:Wrong or right by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      Well, I suppose I oversimplified things when I said Android's popularity is in large part because "you can run the apps you want". The reason Android is succeeding is that it's an open ecosystem - it's on lots of different phones, from lots of manufacturers, running on all the different GSM and CDMA networks in the US. There are entry level Android phones for Joe "Cheapskates" Average who just wants apps on a cheap phone, and power-user smartphones like the Evo 4G and Nexus One.

      But yeah, actually, if you look at the some of the best and most popular apps people are downloading, a *ton* of them would be banned on the iPhone - again, open ecosystem. LauncherPro? Banned - replaces a key piece of OS functionality. K9mail? Banned - duplicates the official email app. Beautiful Widgets - banned, widgets and behavior modifications to the desktop are disallowed. Handcent SMS? Banned - duplicates the official SMS app. NESoid (and all the emulators) - banned, emulation disallowed. Flash Player - banned, Flash is disallowed. Pandora Radio - exists but sort of sucks because it can't run in the background (well, will probably be able to with iOS 4).

      So though I admit there's more to it than just being able to run whatever apps you want, but it's a significant benefit of an open platform and just looking at the apps people seem to download in droves supports this.

    69. Re:Wrong or right by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      See my other post where I address this. Yes, that is part of the truth, but it's all related to the openness of the platform - the plethora of inexpensive and high end handsets, the availability of Android on non-AT&T networks, and the ability to run any software you want.

      Being able to run the software you want (and I don't just mean stuff that's not in the Market - I agree that Joe Average doesn't directly care about that, though there are peripheral benefits from that openness that he may enjoy) is a big feature of an open platform like Android. The examples I cited in my other post of top-100 Android apps that would be banned on the iPhone platform (Beautiful Widgets, Flash, Handcent SMS, K9mail, Launcher Pro and so on) proves the point that these things do matter to people even if they don't explicitly ever think to themselves "gee, I like Android because it's a more open platform".

    70. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Emphasis on high-quality.

    71. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "more devices" and buy one get one free devices.

    72. Re:Wrong or right by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Your posts in this thread lead me to believe you lack either empathy or basic understanding of human psychology (or both--is it the same thing??)

      Funny you say that...when I'm not in rant mode, I'm generally accused of having too much of both.

      What's the point in bitching about the fact that a company came up with a term to describe a new product that is loosely based on physics? ie, what are you getting out of this conversation?

      Asshole answer: Because I like making people nerdrage.

      Honest answer: Because it was a really, really slow day at work

      Do you realize how much you are playing into Apple's hands by spending so much time talking about this product? They LOVE the fact that people are writing articles about their new screen and discussing it weeks before it's even out.

      Most people will call me a liar for this, but I don't care...it's the truth. I honestly think Apple makes decent products, and, despite my own views on marketing, I can't deny their sheer genius when it comes to getting people to want something. That being said, the ferocity with which people defend Apple makes it a prime target to get them riled up. Rarely do I get a reasonable, calm, non-confrontational response; I find that (and fanboyism in general) to be quite amusing. Dickish, I know.

      Compare to the Androids where it's a different model every several months that people (mostly the nerd demographic as far as I can tell? I'
      m judging this off of advertising campaigns as well) lust after.

      The two main reasons I prefer Android over the iPhone is 1. No AT&T and 2. I don't like the walled garden. If the iPhone came to Verizon, I MIGHT consider getting one...but as long as the walled garden is in place, I highly doubt it would happen. Chances are, the appstore has everything I could ever possibly need...but I still don't like the idea of being tied to it, nor do I like the idea of violating my warranty just so I can install whatever I want.

      Yes, I know, it's petty...but it's the truth.

      And there, THAT is the point.

      "He sounds like Wally Gator!" -Captain Murphy

    73. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The above comment brought to you by Apple Computer Corporation, circa 1988.

      Parent is absolutely right. Apple is taking the same position in the phone wars as it did in the PC wars, and it nearly sunk the company.

      Microsoft got their software on the cheap PC clones, just like Google is trying to do. Apple went for the walled garden and is trying again.

      Consumers like cheap. Consumers like different. Consumers like options.

    74. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason I don't have an iphone right now is because it's on AT&T, I finally had to leave, there was too much of a downside to stay just for the sake of the iphone.

      While I didn't leave the iphone so I could get an android initially, that move has made a convert out of me and my next phone will be based off the android operating system. I absolutely love my droid and don't miss the iphone at all. The only thing that I thought "Oh wow cool" with the introduction of the new iphone was the camera on the front for video conferencing. Other then that, my phone runs at 854X480 (slightly less then the new iphone, but comparable), I already have multitasking (and no it doesn't drain my battery). And each update, from 2.1 to now 2.2 has significantly increased the performance of my phone (2.2 RC was released this weekend).

      I still like apple, don't get me wrong, but I'm happy there is a quality alternative.

      BTW, the CEO of Motorola announced just recently that they are going to put out a 2 ghz phone by the end of the year.

      Competition is a great thing.

    75. Re:Wrong or right by sootman · · Score: 1

      I think Android's popularity might have more to do with it being available on more devices, including much cheaper devices.

      Bingo. You can now get Android phones that are just a few months old for free and you can get them on all major carriers. If Android weren't now doing well in sales that would be surprising. I'd love to visit a parallel universe where a 6-month-old iPhone can be had for free on any carrier and look at the numbers.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    76. Re:Wrong or right by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Funny you say that...when I'm not in rant mode, I'm generally accused of having too much of both.

      Fair enough :) As is abundantly apparent, making any real conclusions about other people from the internets is not one of the most fruitful things one can do!

      I only said what I did as it's just a fact that people ARE affected by marketing, packaging, what someone else referred to as the sizzle. It's like how you still see people on ipod who think the ipod was/is crap and are shocked the nomad didn't win! You or I may not approve of that, but that's the way it is, and I think the vast majority of people are affected by marketing/what not in some factors of their lives.

      Asshole answer: Because I like making people nerdrage.

      I like that answer!

      Rarely do I get a reasonable, calm, non-confrontational response; I find that (and fanboyism in general) to be quite amusing. Dickish, I know.

      I find your honesty quite refreshing, and largely agree!

      The two main reasons I prefer Android over the iPhone is 1. No AT&T and 2. I don't like the walled garden. If the iPhone came to Verizon, I MIGHT consider getting one...but as long as the walled garden is in place, I highly doubt it would happen. Chances are, the appstore has everything I could ever possibly need...but I still don't like the idea of being tied to it, nor do I like the idea of violating my warranty just so I can install whatever I want.

      I have an iPhone. I like the iPhone. I REALLY dislike AT&T and I am not enthusiastic about the walled garden. I don't really _care_ that much either though. I would love to be able to just compile ssh or what not and have at it, but no go. Well I guess technically you can do it for $100, but anyway...

      "He sounds like Wally Gator!" -Captain Murphy

      Sealab 2021 reference++

    77. Re:Wrong or right by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      You don't think that any of the reasons you mentioned might be a factor? None of which have anything to do with being 'open' in any real sense?

      "The reason Android is succeeding is that it's an open ecosystem - it's on lots of different phones, from lots of manufacturers, running on all the different GSM and CDMA networks in the US. There are entry level Android phones for Joe "Cheapskates" Average who just wants apps on a cheap phone, and power-user smartphones like the Evo 4G and Nexus One."

      I see the android line being successful because it's very much an iPhone 'killer', or at least in the same game anyway, it's cheap, and you can buy it from tons of different places. The iPhone is limited to a single carrier, with a single 'current' model, and a single hardware vendor. If/when Apple makes the leap to the other providers, I think all bets are off.

      As to a "*ton*" of apps being blocked (your words, not mine), I think you are overestimating. I can think of a few, like Skype (although it's available now), Google Maps, but they decided NOT to release it on iPhone. I'm sure there was another high profile app, but I can't recall what it was. Per the Apple line, they approve 95% of the apps submitted within 7 day. The remaining 5 percent are blocked due to:

      1) Crashing
      2) Use of private API's in violation with the developer agreement
      3) Doesn't do what the designer said it would do
      4) Banned content as laid out in the develop agreement

      I suspect #1 and #2 are the biggies, after all, when someone gets blocked, do you think they would go out and tell the world that Apple thought their app was shitty because it crashed all the time? Would they also admit they violated their agreement, knowing they would get caught, and then expect them to admit any wrongdoing? Far easier to simply claim it was blocked due to some conspiracy by the evil corporation. It certainly seems to work here, as Apple doesn't care about the 'geek' crowd. I can actually understand the anger. We used to set the trend, and in this arena, we simply don't matter, but I don't have such a hard time with the idea.

      You mention a small list of apps that were blocked, and then admit that they already match built in functionality. It's not as if people are being denied basic service here. They just don't care. The mail app works fine. So does SMS. Flash isn't on any phone right now in any stable, usable way. It's irrelevant. Game emulators? Do you realize the sheer number of games that are available on the iPhone?

      Apple paid out 1 Billion dollars to developers. The system works, it's lucrative, assuming you write a solid app that is desirable, and doesn't crash. I for one actually find comfort in the fact that an app that I pay for will do what it says, it's been scanned for malicious intent, it will be relatively stable. Given the crowd in here, I would think a fair number could appreciate those standards. Then again, perhaps not.

    78. Re:Wrong or right by iNaya · · Score: 1

      I agree, the on screen keyboard on my droid slows me down immensely. Heck, I could type faster on my 0-9 Nokia keypad. Not being able to feel the "keys" makes a big difference. I used to text without looking, so I could be listening to someone boring and text under the table. Now I have to look at the phone, otherwise I have to hope of writing the correct thing.

      --
      The Unicode standard is over 20 years old. Why does Slashdot not support it?
    79. Re:Wrong or right by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      The mail app on iPhone sucked balls when it was released and sucks slightly smaller balls now. I owned an iPhone 2G from a few months after release, and I used an iPhone 3G until a month ago. I liked much about the iPhones but always loathed the email app. Chattermail on my old Treo 650 kicked the pants off of it years ago. The lack of IMAP IDLE is an unforgiveable sin and I ditched the whole iPhone platform because there was no way for me to get push email without sharing my IMAP server login with a third party service or switching to Exchange.

      Just because it's good enough for grandma and grandpa doesn't mean it's good enough for everybody. The point is on Android you aren't stuck with the mediocre apps the system comes with. You can easily replace basically any part of the system you want.

      And I never said Apple rejects lots of apps - I said there are lots of very popular, successful Android apps (not a small list at all - a significant percentage of the most popular Android apps out there) that wouldn't exist or be approved by Apple. Such apps generally don't get developed in the first place either because there is no officially supported way to write them or because developers know Apple will never approve them. The cases we hear about in the press are generally the borderline cases where they thought they'd get approved, but Apple nixed them or where Apple initially approved them then changed their minds.

    80. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The general public doesn't give a damn about DPI numbers, nor should they. They care about something that gives them value for their dollars, and marketing is all about conveying the value.

      Or to be more precise, marketing is about creating an impression of value. Whether the value is real or imaginary makes little difference.

    81. Re:Wrong or right by Xest · · Score: 1

      Can I re-download all my old iTunes music for free in a DRM free format now then?

    82. Re:Wrong or right by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      I've tried it, and sorry but you're absolutely wrong about that.

      I'm not wrong, I just have a different opinion. I've tried a BlackBerry Bold, and the keyboard is a nightmare to use. The keys require too much force to press, and the shape of them means that my thumbs start to hurt after a few minutes of typing. And on the phone I used, there was no auto-correction if I accidentally hit two keys at once.

      It's starting to annoy me when phones are automatically marked up in reviews for having a physical keyboard, when there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and which advantages and disadvantages are important is a matter of opinion.

      I'm quite happy to accept that you prefer BlackBerry keyboards to the iPhone keyboard, but that doesn't make me wrong when I prefer the opposite.

    83. Re:Wrong or right by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is why Android phones don't seem to be making as much headway in markets outside the US, where the iPhone is available on multiple carriers? For all the Android hype I've only ever seen one Android handset in the wild here in the UK (highly subjective, I know).

    84. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you wonder why you never get the chicks . . .

    85. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, the sizzle is like foreplay . . . oops, sorry, forgot this is Slashdot.

    86. Re:Wrong or right by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "I think it's insulting to the people that buy Apple's products"
      - Oh please, what a bunch of faggoty melodrama.

      It's called marketing. If you want to tout your product's features in ad campaigns is it going to look better to say "so dense that your eyes won't be able to distinguish individual pixels" or is it better to say Retina Display? Answer, you want to say Retina Display because it is Branding 101.

      Again, why do you care? What difference does it make if he did what you said or called it a Retina Display? Your feigned indignation is more pathetic than anything that was said during that Keynote.

    87. Re:Wrong or right by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      The endless list of would-be iPod/iPhone killers that touted better features but failed to have an impact in the market are evidence of this.

      For the Ipod, sure. But for the Iphone? Who cares about what failures you might be referring too, when there have been plenty of successes. Check out the market share, and see how Apple fares compared with Nokia, LG, Motorola, Samsung and RIM do.

      I don't know which failure companies you're talking about (and talking in terms of a "Symbian/Nokia killer" would be more accurate, since they're the market leader) - but if Apple understand what people want in phones, that the companies I list, which sell vastly more phones, certainly understand what people want.

      (PS - even for the Ipod, are you sure you want to equate "benefits" with being most succesful? Would you say the reason Windows is most successful is because MS better understand what customers want?)

    88. Re:Wrong or right by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      the single model iPhone is still outselling it (counting different capacity iPhones as one model of course).

      If we count all the different Iphone models as a "single model", then a "single model" is outselling Android? :) (Also note that most sales figures I've seen lump all the different generations of Iphone models together, not simply the different capacities, so it's hard to be sure of the sales of a single model). I don't know if that's true, but anyhow, Nokia still massively outsell them, as do many other companies (Motorola, LG, Samsung, RIM).

      You overestimate the average consumer's ability to care about things such as being able to run software from anywhere.

      Indeed, but similarly people here overestimate the average consumer's ability to care about whatever things that the Iphone models might do better (e.g., "retina display"). Which is probably why 40-50% of the market are buying better value Symbian or other Nokia phones.

    89. Re:Wrong or right by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      But similarly, if we're making excuses - I'd love to visit a parallel universe where the Iphones (and Ipad come to that) didn't receive far more media coverage than phones from any other company, and see how (even) fewer they sell.

    90. Re:Wrong or right by gig · · Score: 1

      IPhone is the phone to get if you want to run the software you want. In the first place, it has C apps, not baby Java apps, so it actually has the software I want to run, like audio tools and 3D games. Secondly, it has 250,000 apps, including 10,000 that run on a big screen. Third, the apps are already audited so I know there is no malware and do not have to run a virus scanner. Fourth, the apps install or uninstall with 1-click. Fifth, I can install hundreds of apps without the phone slowing down or being adversely affected in any way.

      The number of apps that Google excluded from Android by closing the native C API is much greater than the number Apple has rejected.

      And the HTML5 Web apps on both iPhone and Android are thanks to Apple's work to bring WebKit to ARM.

      So in all in all, apps are a major reason iOS outsells Android by over 10:1.

       

    91. Re:Wrong or right by justinpm · · Score: 1

      From music. Apple is far from DRM free. Their apps, their books, and most of their video have DRM on them. It might not be their call on the video and book side of things, but it certainly is for the app market. Fairplay is still being used. From what I've heard they've also used Fairplay on the iPod's iTunesDB to lockout third-party apps. It's convenient for them to say they hate DRM because everyone does, but it's far from the truth in this case.

    92. Re:Wrong or right by soppsa · · Score: 1

      Actually you can...

    93. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a line RadioShack uses to pump out sales idiots. Watch this dude, he is looking to sign you up...

    94. Re:Wrong or right by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Please show me how easy it is to root the HTC Incredible running Android.

    95. Re:Wrong or right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get your panties in a wad, OP was clearly referring to all the zealots who insist the iPhone keyboard is as good as a real keyboard and all one has to do is "try it". It does get really old, being told that every time the subject comes up. Kind of looks to me like they're trying to convince themselves, frankly.

    96. Re:Wrong or right by al3 · · Score: 1

      The difference is consumers think they understand the benefit of those features. They're still seeking a benefit, whether they have it right nor not. Android is doing great, but as "the phone to beat" I think iPhone is still at the top of the heap in popular opinion.

    97. Re:Wrong or right by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      From the link: "The alpha version of the root is very hard to do and it might not be “repeatable.” Whatever that means proceed at your own risk."

  4. Anti-Aliasing by TheKidWho · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One must not forget about Anti aliasing or the fact that each pixel contains 3 RGB sub pixels. This increases the effect PPI significantly.

    1. Re:Anti-Aliasing by jandrese · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you can't see the pixels, what's the point of anti-aliasing?

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Anti-Aliasing by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      So you can keep it closer to your face?

    3. Re:Anti-Aliasing by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      Which brings interesting point: after monitor displays progress to this level, complicating algorithms for font anti-aliasing will become obsolete. Also, all day programming will be a lot cooler for my eyes.

      --
      839*929
    4. Re:Anti-Aliasing by adisakp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Anti-aliasing makes a high-res picture look even better.. especially for thin lines or fonts (text is lots of thin curved lines). When you have a subpixel width, you might not be able to see the pixels but the eye can tell the difference in brightness between a 2 pixel wide line and one that should be 1.5 pixels wide if it's not anti-aliased. Plus it's necessary if you want screen shots to look good when zoomed up or you want the software to work well at similar resolutions on a device with a larger display (i.e. iPad).

    5. Re:Anti-Aliasing by jimicus · · Score: 2

      Fat chance. Monitor panel resolutions (except for pretty esoteric models) appear to have levelled out - I'd imagine they're just using panels for TVs.

    6. Re:Anti-Aliasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wanna bet that they actually contain only 2 subpixels?

    7. Re:Anti-Aliasing by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Your own link states the Nexus One is one of the few phones which has that technology.

      Guess what, the iPhone doesn't use an AMOLED display.

      And hey, that lends even more credence to the fact that the iPhone 4 Display has a lot more pixels then the Nexus One.

    8. Re:Anti-Aliasing by Phisbut · · Score: 1

      Fat chance. Monitor panel resolutions (except for pretty esoteric models) appear to have levelled out - I'd imagine they're just using panels for TVs.

      So unfortunately true. We get fewer pixels now than we had 10 years ago. I've been using resolutions of 1600x1200 for years (CRT at first, then LCD), both for home usage and work. Nowadays, walk into a BestBuy and try to find a monitor that displays more than 1080 lines.

      Computer monitors are all made to display 1080p video now, rather than actually be used for computing, like I don't do anything else than watch video on my computer.

      I could get a 1600x1200 LCD monitor for under $500 more than 5 years ago. With today's tech, I would have expected to either get the same resolution for $100 today, or some big-ass 3000x2250 monitor for under $1000, but they won't make those since it doesn't fit HD-TV.

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
    9. Re:Anti-Aliasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it could be that they are using only one third of pixels instead of two ;)

      (this isn't entirely bad news. the standard rgb-pattern _is_ quite suboptimal)

    10. Re:Anti-Aliasing by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      There are high res displays, I'm running 2560x1600 myself.

      But I do agree, they are *way* too expensive. I wouldn't have bought mine, except I found a good secondhand deal.

    11. Re:Anti-Aliasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only if you're a marketer..

    12. Re:Anti-Aliasing by jackbird · · Score: 1

      1920x1200 flat panels are everywhere, and for well under $500. If you want more pixels, buy 2. Or 4.

    13. Re:Anti-Aliasing by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      Any quantized or discretized representation of a higher resolution signal (image) must have limited bandwidth (image resolution) to avoid aliasing artifacts. It doesn't matter whether you can distinguish (see) the pixels (samples) or not. The problem is that for a signal with high frequency content (image with fine resolution content) the lower frequency (lower resolution) samples (pixels) cannot distinguish between the original/intended signal (image) and a corresponding one with lower frequency (resolution) content. The lower frequency signal having the same samples is called the alias of the high frequency signal (at least in this case...). You effectively "see" (or in audio "hear") a lower frequency signal than was there originally.

      The classic example of this the Moire' pattern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern.

      The effect is the same for audio or video or images or any other system with sampled signals. By limiting the resolution before sampling, equivalent to lowpass filtering, you can limit the high frequency content that aliases to lower frequencies.

      See Nyquist Rate and Sampling Theory for more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_rate

       

    14. Re:Anti-Aliasing by MuValas · · Score: 1

      Anti-aliasing makes a high-res picture look even better.

      At the expense of resolution.

    15. Re:Anti-Aliasing by adisakp · · Score: 1

      Not really. Anti-aliasing allows for you to display sub-pixel image contributions. This does not necessarily compromise resolution. In fact many AA schemes actually render at a higher resolution and downsample to your final display resolution. The result is MORE information in the picture, not LESS.

  5. Again...Who cares by sxedog · · Score: 1

    I mean one story is really too much on the topic. Isn't there anything more interesting out there in the world not focused on the iPhone's capabilities? Sheesh.

    --
    If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it.
    1. Re:Again...Who cares by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      Who cares.

      As far as bang for your buck, if your buck is tied to traffic and traffic can be represented by replies to stories, it looks like both Apple and Microsoft are both reliable topics.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    2. Re:Again...Who cares by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      or, slashdot is responding to customer demand - ie, we want to reply to inflammatory articles about Apple and MS, so they provide us with what we want!

      Its like saying Simon Cowell and XXX Idol (hmm, I mean American Idol / Pop Idol etc, but I think I've just had an idea for something rather good....) are crap, but they are produced simply because that's the kind of crap the public want.

      Besides, if you don't like Apple stories, edit your preferences for crying out loud.

    3. Re:Again...Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the x-axis on that graph supposed to be?

    4. Re:Again...Who cares by sxedog · · Score: 1

      I did edit my preferences but they still seem to pop up. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... :)

      --
      If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it.
    5. Re:Again...Who cares by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      I care.

  6. retina display by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What bugs me is when a company uses a name for something that doesn't make sense.

    When I hear "retina display" I think what you are talking about is a system that projects an image into my retina.

    1. Re:retina display by ricosalomar · · Score: 1

      projects an image into my retina.

      I believe that's exactly what they have. That's why you can "see" the screen.

    2. Re:retina display by localman57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. That's what it does. There's a light in the back of the iPhone, followed by an LCD grid, which filters the light, which goes to the lens of your eye, which projects an image on your retina. So it seems like Steve pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's a system that projects an image into your retina.

    3. Re:retina display by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or It could be like Mandrake the Magician's Hypnotic Display, where the Hypnotized person would project from Retina on to a flat surface. (I can't seem to find the picture on the internet. I guess i need to scan it).

    4. Re:retina display by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          That's what I thought when I first read it too. Hmm, a wearable eyepiece that projects the image directly into your eye. That could be useful. Then I read what it actually means, and was again disappointed with marketing fluff.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    5. Re:retina display by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how this system is doing anything different from a normal display besides having a better resolution than before.
      It's not _projecting onto ones retina_ any more than another LCD screen is.
      It generates images and text on a lit screen. It's not directed that image to a specific point past the screen like a projector does.
      If it did, it wouldn't be visible from other angles or by other people as it would be focused at another point.

    6. Re:retina display by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      That's what I thought when I first read it too. Hmm, a wearable eyepiece that projects the image directly into your eye (i.e., nothing visible to outside viewers). That could be useful. Then I read what it actually means, and was again disappointed with marketing fluff.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    7. Re:retina display by Draek · · Score: 1

      And that's why it's called a "screen". What difference is there between a "retina screen" and a regular screen to warrant the marketing buzzword?

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    8. Re:retina display by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, everything you see (barring hallucinations) is projected onto your retina.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    9. Re:retina display by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 1

      Except of course it makes perfect sense. It's a simple way to relate the resolution of the screen (over 300ppi) to the fact that most people's eyes can't see the dots at over 300dpi in typical use cases. Pretty simple stuff.

      Calling it the Achilles Heel Display - that wouldn't make sense.

    10. Re:retina display by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, everything you see (barring hallucinations) is projected onto your retina.

      And potentially other people's retinas. It would be nice to finally get to the laser->retina stage.

    11. Re:retina display by CountBrass · · Score: 1

      Read the article or even just the many comments above yours? Perhaps you would feel more comfortable reading Digg?

      --
      Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
    12. Re:retina display by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      When I hear "retina display" I think what you are talking about is a system that projects an image into my retina.

      Exactly. This is also why I will never buy an Android Phone till it at least can act as a Turing machine.

    13. Re:retina display by Phisbut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I believe that's exactly what they have. That's why you can "see" the screen.

      In that case, that's hardly anything new. Even my keyboard has "retina display" technology, I mean, that's why I can "see" it, right?

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
    14. Re:retina display by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 1

      Yeah, man. I hate when products and features have NAMES and shit. That's just MARKETING, man! Some guy was telling me about how his CPU was a Core 2 Extreme (What does that even MEAN, man? It's not like the chip can SNOW BOARD or anything!), and I was like "Screw you, dude! You're just a marketing droid, fooled by their fancy BUZZWORDS!" I explained to him why he should instead describe every spec of the Intel chip, from its cache size to its clock speed, every time he wanted to refer to it. He then told me to fuck off! What a DICK, right? There's tons of instances of this, like how Apple calls its sliding window arranging function "EXPOSE," IBM calls its chips "POWER," Microsoft calls its camera technology "NATAL," and Wacom calling its tablets "GRAPHITE!" It's fucking ridiculous, my friend. People need to open their EYES! What has the world come to!?

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
    15. Re:retina display by ricosalomar · · Score: 1

      Exactly!
      I was kind of joking back there...

    16. Re:retina display by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 1

      And how CIVIL is a Honda CIVIC Hybrid? And what is it a hybrid of? DAMN MARKETING! Let's just always refer to it as "The 4 door sedan from Honda that has a combination of an electric propulsion system and an internal combustion engine!" Fucking marketers!

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
    17. Re:retina display by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      *Everything* you can see is "projecting an image into your retina".

      That's how our eyes work!

    18. Re:retina display by angus77 · · Score: 1

      When I hear "retina display" I think what you are talking about is a system that projects an image into my retina.

      Or from your retina! That's the feature I've been waiting for---laser eyes!!!

  7. Call to action by wombatmobile · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let me make this clear: if you have perfect eyesight, then at one foot away the iPhone 4’s pixels are resolved. The picture will look pixellated. If you have average eyesight, the picture will look just fine.

    Beer!

  8. Marketing by decipher_saint · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To claim any display has the same resolution as the human eye when what they really mean is that it looks "less pixelly" is misleading at best.

    --
    crazy dynamite monkey
    1. Re:Marketing by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Particularly since the eyesight variation is in focus, not resolution.

  9. We can't tell, anyway by A.+B3ttik · · Score: 5, Funny

    Most Slashdotters will never be anywhere close to one foot from a vagina anyway, so it's not like we'll have anything to compare it to when surfing our porn on it.

    1. Re:We can't tell, anyway by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      just get a good look on the way out when you're being born, then, i guess...

    2. Re:We can't tell, anyway by e2d2 · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I get more pussy than an animal shelter. I'm humble too!

    3. Re:We can't tell, anyway by tecnico.hitos · · Score: 1

      Be glad that lord Steve still allows you to surf for porn.

      --
      The good, the evil and the vacuum tubes.
    4. Re:We can't tell, anyway by f3rret · · Score: 1

      There's no porn on the iPhone.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    5. Re:We can't tell, anyway by discord5 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Most Slashdotters will never be anywhere close to one foot from a vagina anyway, so it's not like we'll have anything to compare it to when surfing our porn on it.

      Haven't you heard? Steve Jobs thinks you should buy an android if you (or your children) are looking for porn.

    6. Re:We can't tell, anyway by Guppy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Most Slashdotters will never be anywhere close to one foot from a vagina anyway

      Oh, I'm pretty sure most Slashdotters have been closer than that. First a short distance in one direction, then the opposite.

    7. Re:We can't tell, anyway by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

      Robots are hot.

  10. As long as ... by ryan.onsrc · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... every one turns off their WiFi

    1. Re:As long as ... by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      I wonder if someone had an Evo, if they could just turn on Wifi hotspot and let Steve connect through that.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    2. Re:As long as ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I wonder if someone had an Evo, if they could just turn on Wifi hotspot and let Steve connect through that.

      Wifi hotspots were actually the problem. There were over 500 access points in the room because of MiFis and phone-generated hotspots. I really doubt that one more would have helped.

    3. Re:As long as ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cute, but with 500+ active mobile hot spots (I think they called out the Verizon MiFi on Ars' liveblog) and only 11 802.11g channels, an extra AP is really going to help him...

    4. Re:As long as ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should try to connect or at least use WLAN connection when there is over 560 Access Points in use in same room where you are.

      Do you believe that few thousands WLAN users generates so small "jamming field" that everything runs smoothly?

    5. Re:As long as ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > only 11 802.11g channels

      Nitpicky, but those channels are also used on 802.11b and the 2.4GhZ variant of 802.11n (both of which the new iPhone can use). And worse yet, of those 11 channels only 3 are non-overlapping.

  11. Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only people who are going to look at the screen and think "hey, they said I wouldn't be able to see the pixels but I can!" are people who look at printed magazines and think "wow, when are they going to get rid of all these dots?" The screen has print level resolution and, as a graphic designer, that simply blows my mind. As has been mentioned in that other thread, graphic designers do digital work in 300 dpi for print work and 72 dpi for online work. If this screen technology becomes the new norm, we'll be doing all work at 300 dpi, which is damn, damn, damn impressive to look at. At that point, the technology bottleneck will be the pipes (a 72 dpi image is quite a bit smaller than a 300 dpi image, after all...). I do hope this tech spreads to lots of other devices and computer displays.

    But, yes, anyone who claims that Apple was lying about it being a "retinal" display is simply attempting to pick a needless fight. Ignore them and move on.

    1. Re:Print Resolution by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      Now, what I want is a 21' monitor with the same dpis, instead of crappy 1080p resolutions, no matter the monitor size.

    2. Re:Print Resolution by interkin3tic · · Score: 0, Troll

      But, yes, anyone who claims that Apple was lying about it being a "retinal" display is simply attempting to pick a needless fight. Ignore them and move on.

      Or they're just pointing out that apple has a ridiculous marketing point right there. Trivial point, trivial counterpoint, it's all trivial, don't just say the counterpoint is silly.

    3. Re:Print Resolution by snowboardin159 · · Score: 0

      But what about us with perfect vision???

    4. Re:Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      Did you read anything that has been written on this subject? Apple does not have a "ridiculous marketing point". The vast number of people (and, by vast, we're talking 98%+ of the population) will look at the screen and not see pixels. That isn't a "ridiculous marketing point" - it's a bold leap forward in display technology that deserves to be highlighted. Try paying attention to the details of the discussion before simply hating on Apple. This isn't marketing mumbo jumbo - this is a display that is capable of print quality graphics. If you don't realize why that is an important leap forward in display technology, then you shouldn't involve yourself in the discussion.

      And, unless you look at a magazine and think "oh my gawd, so many dots - they need to deal with this" you're NOT GOING TO SEE THE PIXELS when you look at an iPhone 4 screen.

    5. Re:Print Resolution by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As printers, we do CT images at 300dpi or higher, but we don't print at 300dpi.

      150lpi AM screening does fine for images, but try rasterizing your fonts at 300dpi and run them through a 150lpi AM screen. It will be visibly poor quality.

      Even 300dpi rasterized fonts into a stochastic FM system are going to look fairly poor by print standards.

      In reality, we print text at much higher raster resolutions, more like 1200dpi or 2400dpi in the final post-screening plate render at most shops.

      If you handle 1-bit TIFFs, you'll see this as well, none of them are going to be 300dpi, because that's just not enough resolution for text.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    6. Re:Print Resolution by DeadJesusRodeo · · Score: 1

      It'll be a while before it spreads. Even the iPad's screen size would bring the A4 processor to it's knees. And as far as what dpi designers use - that's a false statement. Designers design for whatever they output - and most of the time LPI is what we're speccing to in print - not DPI. Silkscreen could be as low as 33lpi (or less). Newsprint, 70-100lpi, Magazines 133lpi, good quality stock could go as high as 200lpi or higher.

      None of those numbers have anything to do with DPI apart from the source image before it's destroyed by the screen. Since lpi limits your output, you generally did no more than 2x those numbers (1.6 before computers had decent graphics) because once you go to print, it's meaningless to have a 600dpi image if you're going to 133lpi print. It's not going to look better than 266.

      And don't get me started on source size and reductions.

    7. Re:Print Resolution by Angst+Badger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But, yes, anyone who claims that Apple was lying about it being a "retinal" display is simply attempting to pick a needless fight. Ignore them and move on.

      Hm, maybe. It's certainly legitimate to object to the ill-chosen, ad hoc terminology that clashes with the existing meaning of the phrase. It's also legitimate to quibble over the enormous amount of wiggle room in the definition. Apple wasn't lying, but they were making claims without a great deal of actual substance. People get fed up with Apple's constant hyperbole, especially when the product in question is, in the end, a PDA with a larger than usual screen.

      That said, no one disputes that the iPad will be a great new platform for graphic designers and the advertisers who employ them.

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    8. Re:Print Resolution by John+Whitley · · Score: 1

      The screen has print level resolution and, as a graphic designer, that simply blows my mind.

      I recall seeing a demo of an IBM Roentgen[1] display back in 2001 at SIGCHI. This display was color 200ppi display with a 16.3" diagonal, developed with telemedicine uses in mind (including remote examination of patient x-ray results). IBM was showing off museum-quality archival scans of famous artwork, absolutely readable footnotes in serifed text with 4 point (physical) font size, and ridiculously unreadable icons and text in Windows. ;-) This display was, likewise, completely mind-blowing at the time.

      I knew it would be a long time for that tech to trickle down into the mainstream, but I never thought then that it'd be in handheld form first.

      [1] Named for Wilhelm Roentgen who won the Nobel Prize for producing and detecting x-rays.

    9. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1682058&cid=32526458

      What this guy said can be basically directed at what you said.

      And trust me, as a linux and FOSS fanboi I find reasons to be pissed at apple all the time.

    10. Re:Print Resolution by HarvardAce · · Score: 3, Informative

      Now, what I want is a 21' monitor with the same dpis, instead of crappy 1080p resolutions, no matter the monitor size.

      Assuming you meant a 21inch monitor (at 16x9 aspect ratio), that would be about 18.3" wide and 10.3" tall. At the iPhone's 326 PPI (note that PPI is not per square inch), that would result in a display running at approximately 6,000 x 3375, or over 20 million pixels. At 60 Hz, assuming 3 bytes per pixel, that's about 29Gbit/s uncompressed. HDMI tops out at 10.2Gbit/s, DVI at 7.92Gbit/s (dual-link), so you'd need to come up with some other way to push all those pixels to the display or have the display accept multiple HDMI/DVI inputs (the resolution would be comparable to a 3x3 setup of normal-resolution monitors, which is more than something like eyeFinity can handle at this juncture).

      If you're talking about a 21 feet wide diagonal screen, then you're looking at 72,000 x 40,500. I think that would be a little excessive.

      --
      Note to self: Stop putting jokes in my insightful comments so I can get something other than +1 Funny!
    11. Re:Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      Yes. 300 dps color, 600 dpi greyscale, 1200 dpi bitmap. I believe, however, that most people involved in this sort of discussion recognize we're talking about full colour material but you are correct - pure black and white at 300 dpi looks like crap but I'd image the iPhone 4 screen would look like shit if it was only presenting one colour rather than millions of colours.

    12. Re:Print Resolution by Spectre · · Score: 1

      graphic designers do digital work in 300 dpi for print work and 72 dpi for online work.

      This isn't the 1980's anymore. I don't know any graphic designers that work or target that low of a resolution. Even in the 1990's, 600dpi for print work was typical as was 96dpi on-screen.

      I worked with graphic designers for several years, but even back then it was 1200dpi for print and 120dpi for on-screen.

      --
      "Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
    13. Re:Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      300 dpi CMYK. Most of us real designers work in colour.

      And, if you're working with designers who are doing full colour work at 1200 dpi at print size then they are utterly wasting their time.

    14. Re:Print Resolution by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I want 1440 dpi. 300 dpi is so lame.
      I find printed letters are often fuzzy and I can see pixels all the time.
      I want real life resolution!

      Actually I am kidding. I would LOVE to have a 22 inch monitor with 300+DPI.
      Don't know if I will see it at a price I can afford but it would be nice.
      To be honest since I am not a graphic designer and I have worked on computers since the days of the Commodore 64 and Kaypro 4 modern displays are pretty stinking nice to look at :)

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:Print Resolution by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      there will always be people who claim to see the pixels. we will eventually ridicule and belittle them.

    16. Re:Print Resolution by buttersnout · · Score: 1

      I also think the cited expert looks for needless fights. At the end of the article he also starts one over the Quattron display. His claim is that since yellow is created using the RGB pixels the fourth color makes no difference. As was evident in the slashdot discussion on the same subject way back, at the very least we can say the issue is way more complicated than that. In fact, every artist I ask has quite a bit to say about CMYK vs RGB and the addition of Y to RGB. I think the reason he nitpicked the iphone 4 instead of the quattron (aside from that last paragraph) is that you can get much more people interested if you're nitpicking apple instead of sharp.

    17. Re:Print Resolution by Rectal+Prolapse · · Score: 1

      One thing you forgot: Print does not have the screendoor effect that LCD does.

      Screendoor effect = the gaps between the pixels of an LCOS/LCD/DLP/AMOLED display. Print does not have this issue because of the dot spray pattern of ink.

    18. Re:Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      Between those printing dots are the background white of the paper. Grab a magnifying glass and look at a printed page and you will see coloured dots on a white pattern. Same thing.

    19. Re:Print Resolution by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1

      People get fed up with Apple's constant hyperbole, especially when the product in question is, in the end, a PDA with a larger than usual screen.

      I don't know about anyone else, but I'm fed up with the constant hyberbole against Apple here on slashdot. If it weren't for insightful comments like the GP's, I wouldn't read comments on apple stories at all any more because they too often are just filled with foaming-at-the-mouth angst. When I do read comments, often I see complaints about how Apple products aren't so great when you spec them out. Here, they improved the specs on one of their products and they're trying to make a big deal of that. Why? Because it differentiates them from their competitors. That is how to succeed in a business with hundreds of laptop or smart phone models already for sale in the market. So they came up with a silly trade name, so what? Does that somehow make the product less good?

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    20. Re:Print Resolution by cynyr · · Score: 1

      good, so get on it, or go back to analog, or compress the steam and not set 110, 001, 000, 010. etc for each pixel. perhaps hex would lower the data needed to be sent over the wire(while increasing the amount of processing the monitor needs) or just sending the values for the changed pixels, and let the small chip in the display handle remembering the previous state.

      I would love a 21" monitor at 300PPI, or 400PPI. As for a HDTV, 47" would be ~46" diag, so 15,000x8438, as it is now, i can see pixels on them if i'm less than about 4' away. So yes we need more pixels, and the "bandwidth" problem will just need to be sorted out.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    21. Re:Print Resolution by mobby_6kl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >... it's a bold leap forward in display technology that deserves to be highlighted.

      No it's not. It's a slight increase in pixel density over existing displays, but it's not in any way bold or a leap. The only way this is even notable is because the iphone got by with a substandard display for so long, so of course compared that, this is a noticeable increase.

    22. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're talking about a 21 feet

      Stonehenge monument anyone?

    23. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DisplayPort can do up to 17.28Gbps, and by my calculations could support something about as high as 4608 x 2592 (1920x1080 x 2.4).

      Not that this is relevant at all, I just thought it was interesting.

    24. Re:Print Resolution by Rectal+Prolapse · · Score: 1

      Ah, but the dots are scattered around, not in neat rows - at least, with more modern printers anyways (publishing and inkjet), so you won't see "screen door".

    25. Re:Print Resolution by Udo+Schmitz · · Score: 1

      graphic designers do digital work in 300 dpi for print work and 72 dpi for online work.

      I hope they don't, as it doesn't make sense at all:

      http://www.scantips.com/no72dpi.html

    26. Re:Print Resolution by Rectal+Prolapse · · Score: 1

      An example can be found here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halftone

      Note that dot size can vary, as well as the patterns used.

    27. Re:Print Resolution by Uberbah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hm, maybe. It's certainly legitimate to object to the ill-chosen, ad hoc terminology that clashes with the existing meaning of the phrase. It's also legitimate to quibble over the enormous amount of wiggle room in the definition. Apple wasn't lying, but they were making claims without a great deal of actual substance. People get fed up with Apple's constant hyperbole, especially when the product in question is, in the end, a PDA with a larger than usual screen.

      Isn't that just a long winded way of saying "well, you were right on your claims after all, but I'm still going to hold it against you rather than admit that I was wrong in my rush to judgment."

    28. Re:Print Resolution by pipedwho · · Score: 1

      This isn't like the usual hyping of camera resolution - hey look we've got 14 megapixels vs the competition's crappy 12. Yee haw!

      This is like a 14 megapixel point and shoot camera being released back in the days when everyone else was still only touting 4 megapixels. That kind of jump seems like a point worth marketing to me. You might call it hype, I call it a significant improvement.

    29. Re:Print Resolution by rthille · · Score: 1

      Maybe he really wants a 21' monitor:
      http://hiperwall.calit2.uci.edu/

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    30. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people don't notice pixels on a 21" 1680x1050 display either. DOes that make it a "retinal" display?

      I don't get it, IP4 is only a bit more than current VGA displays, some of which have much smaller physical sizes. Why do fanboys only get hot when Apple announces it does something, when most stuff Apple announces has been done somewhere else before? I mean, getting excited by PDF readers now? Wow!

    31. Re:Print Resolution by wavedeform · · Score: 1

      The "dot gain" when printing on a lot of surfaces helps hide this, though it's still visible.

    32. Re:Print Resolution by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      At that point, the technology bottleneck will be the pipes (a 72 dpi image is quite a bit smaller than a 300 dpi image, after all...).

      Actually, on a modern broadband connection the biggest factors are network latency and browser's css/javascript rendering speed.

      Neither of which is effected at all by the actual size of each image. I just tested downloading a 400x267px (27KB) photo vs a 160x120 photo (6KB). The large photo took 0.361 seconds, and the small photo took 0.358 seconds. I repeated the test several times, and in fact —the small photo was slower than the large one sometimes.

      So, tripling the resolution of an image only has a 1% performance hit.

    33. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you're trying to be snide, but many "real designers" do book work and hence deal almost exclusively in B&W with only the occasional grayscale. My friends in the academic publishing industry who design 300 page books filled with equations and figures don't see any color at all in their work beyond the occasional tip-in image or three-color figure.

      What I'm saying is that not all designers do jobbing work, despite your self-centered opinion. Some actually still work on the backbone of printing, making books. Used to be that everyone aspired to do books, and looked down on lowly commercial stuff. I don't think that the hierarchy has really changed, just that commerce is a much bigger market today and so you guys call yourselves "real designers" with no exposure to the old core traditions in the academy and literature.

    34. Re:Print Resolution by tknd · · Score: 1

      DisplayPort 1.2 can do 17.28Gbit/s. That's a little more than halfway there.

      I'd even be happy with 200ppi on a computer display. It would make 6pt fonts readable and make digital camera pictures look more like printed photographs. Your mouse cursor would also glide much smoother across the screen which is great for photo editing and diagram apps. Zooming out also wouldn't dissolve into a blurry/pixelated mess, it would still maintain a lot of fidelity.

    35. Re:Print Resolution by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You look at your 21" screen from a foot away? Do people not realise that the distance has a big impact in the required resolution. There's no way you would need 326ppi on a 21" monitor because no mentally stable person looks at it from only a foot away. From where I am sitting right now I can't even touch the monitor on my desk let alone hold it a foot from my face.

      People are too hung up on PPI without factoring the distance into the equation. The same can be said for the people who can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p on their TVs. These are usually people with big lounge rooms and significant others who won't let them move the couch or the TV into the middle of the room and thus must watch it from 5m away.

    36. Re:Print Resolution by HarvardAce · · Score: 1

      I'd even be happy with 200ppi on a computer display.

      200ppi would probably be sufficient, given the average distance of a monitor compared to your iPhone. If they are saying that 326ppi at 1 foot is sufficient, then 200ppi at about 2 feet would actually be better. I would think that most people have a 21" monitor at least 2 feet away from their eyes. At 200ppi, a 2160p monitor (3840 x 2160) would be about 22" diagonal, with only 4x the pixels of a normal 1080p display.

      --
      Note to self: Stop putting jokes in my insightful comments so I can get something other than +1 Funny!
    37. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The little children of Stonehenge would look *awesome* on that monitor!

    38. Re:Print Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      Get off my lawn.

    39. Re:Print Resolution by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Hater!

    40. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, what I want is a 21' monitor with the same dpis, instead of crappy 1080p resolutions, no matter the monitor size.

      Assuming you meant a 21inch monitor (at 16x9 aspect ratio), that would be about 18.3" wide and 10.3" tall. At the iPhone's 326 PPI (note that PPI is not per square inch), that would result in a display running at approximately 6,000 x 3375, or over 20 million pixels. At 60 Hz, assuming 3 bytes per pixel, that's about 29Gbit/s uncompressed. HDMI tops out at 10.2Gbit/s, DVI at 7.92Gbit/s (dual-link), so you'd need to come up with some other way to push all those pixels to the display ...

      DisplayPort: 17.28Gbit/s. A dual-DP input could handle the bandwidth and there are plenty of video cards with at least 2 display port outputs on them. The 5870 ATI card has 6 display port connectors, BTW, so it could theoretically handle 3 such imaginary 21" 300ppi monitors. I'd imaging that playing games at native res. would be right out, however :)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

    41. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forget that, I'm sick of having to pay more for inferior screens specs! Seriously, there's no reason to not be cramming more PPI into LCD screens, my biggest CRT I bought nearly 10 years ago has more vertical lines than most displays these days. Why do I need to shell out 800 dollars or more for an IPS panel that even comes close (1600 bucks if I want to exceed it!)? DVI is an old standard, let's replace it with one that can push a ton more data (this time with one that includes more shielding so the max run can be more than 6 feet if need be). We could have monitors that look as good as black and white print newspaper by now, but everyone is happy with horrid 1080p. I have bad vision naturally but with my contacts in get way better than 20/20, I suspect I'm not alone, there is demand for this stuff, simply no one is making it.

    42. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is possible to have 1200dpi with a resolution of 300 pixel per inch: just stuff 4x4=16 dots in every pixel. This is especially true for inkjet printing where the dot placement is not very precise.

    43. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only there was a video standard that could handle more video bandwidth than HDMI...

      With VGA that would require a dot clock of at least 1.2GB/s. Still high, (I'm not sure how many monitors can go over 350MHz), but my point is that digital signaling has extra overhead.

    44. Re:Print Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Display Port can do 17.28 Gbit/s and is far superior to HDMI, so no Even display Port can't do 29Gbit but we are closer to technology that can than you think. I bet the next generation will do more than 29 Gbit.

      Of course that isn't the only thing that CURRENTLY make's 300 PPI impractical. But give it a few years. 5 years ago a 2 TB hard drive for $100 would have been impractical now its the staples weekly sale.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

    45. Re:Print Resolution by Nalgas+D.+Lemur · · Score: 1

      You look at your 21" screen from a foot away?

      I look at my 24" screen from about 18" away, or sometimes even a bit less, unless I'm watching a movie or something. Aside from being fairly nearsighted, I have fun, wacky corneas that even further screw up my distance vision, which starts a bit closer tham arm's length for me, while having very little effect on things closer than that. 12" is pushing it a bit (although that's about the distance I look at my laptop from), but at a comfortable viewing distance for me personally, I could probably stand to get up to 200ppi before not noticing any further improvements. I agree that 300 may be a bit overkill for most people on a monitor on their desktop the way they use them currently (and definitely for a TV on the other side of the room). Really it's all irrelevant until someone gets off their ass and gets resolution-independent UI scaling working properly, though.

    46. Re:Print Resolution by Angst+Badger · · Score: 1

      Isn't that just a long winded way of saying "well, you were right on your claims after all, but I'm still going to hold it against you rather than admit that I was wrong in my rush to judgment."

      No, it's a polite way of saying that Apple misused a catchy-sounding buzzword to divert attention away from a more accurate but qualification-laden description of the actual device, and that doing so is childish and dishonest. The same description -- with the same qualifications -- would be true of the average PC monitor if you simply moved six feet away from it. It's a trivial claim puffed up to sound like a significant technological advance.

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    47. Re:Print Resolution by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      No. What's "childish and dishonest" is continuing to harp on someone for misstating their case after their case has been shown to be true.

      Stop drinking the Hatorade.

  12. One in the eye for the haters. by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's one in the eye for all the haters on the previous story who just took the random guy off the internet's word for it that Apple was wrong.

    1. Re:One in the eye for the haters. by Straterra · · Score: 1

      There's one in the eye for all the haters on this story who just took the random guy off the internet's word for it that Apple was right.

    2. Re:One in the eye for the haters. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that 'average' eyesight is the average BEFORE people have their deficiencies corrected by lenses, I would imagine that the REAL average these days (for those able to afford IT gear) is much closer to perfect eyesight than the 'average' .
      After all you don't pay for prescription lenses to make your vision 'average' unless you're already almost blind.
      Hence I would expect the 0.6 to remain a valid measure, despite Apple apologists objections.

  13. Nerd fight!!! by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

    This is what I would call an extremely interesting discussion...

    sigh

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    1. Re:Nerd fight!!! by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      True, but I do think it's interesting that we're starting to make handhelds that are beyond our visual capacity. Makes me feel somewhat like we've triumphed over nature again.

      Anyway, hold the phone, I recall something about slashdot being news for... some group of people... who were those people again?

    2. Re:Nerd fight!!! by mike260 · · Score: 1

      What doesn't kill you only prolongs the inevitable

      You mean 'delays', not 'prolongs'.

    3. Re:Nerd fight!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      jerks

  14. Retinal Display by Bicx · · Score: 1

    Found some more resources and examples of retinal display here.

    Oh wait...

  15. Oh puhlease !! by hubdawg · · Score: 0, Troll

    Get off it. iPhone is still owned by a corporation that has gone from innovative, to more constraining and restrictive than the RIAA in many respects.

    1. Re:Oh puhlease !! by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Wow, speaking of RIAA comparisons, your hyperbolic statement reminds me of many things the RIAA has said . . . . complete and utter bullshit.

  16. its apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that means steve jobs is gonna punch you in the eye and you'll love the resulting display of sparkly lights!

  17. Consumer vs. Geek by schutzhund · · Score: 1

    IMHO Apple/Jobs has learned to sell directly to the average consumer and bypassed the geek promotion theory. To their target market I think his description was a much better sales statement than listing the resolution. Their market is Betty Lou that wants cutting edge, but still has trouble embedding a link in an email.

    There are many anti-Apple people. If Apple told them, don't jump off the cliff you'll die... they'd look right at Jobs, give him the finger, and jump off.

    1. Re:Consumer vs. Geek by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Nope.

      "plays your Bluray disks" is a far more useful statement.

      "retina display" is just vague and meaningless like many things ad men put on packages.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  18. Is 1 foot a reasonable distance? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    I seem to be about 9 inches away from my phone. Is smaller than an iPhone though so maybe users do have them further away.

  19. 300dpi printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where do you think the figure for 300dpi printers came from in the 90's?

    1. Re:300dpi printers by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      72dpi x 4.166666666666667?

  20. Oh its all so clear now! by DarthVain · · Score: 2, Funny

    See I didn't know you meant "normal" people. I thought you meant "Super" people with like xray vision, heat vision, and telescopic vision and all that shit.

    It makes so much more sense now when you explain it that way.

    P.S. Of course my vision (-11.25,-11.5) an 8 bit Nintendo somehow running on a Lite-Brite would likely have more "pixels" or resolution than my eyes, so I guess it is all about perspective. Maybe if I glue two iPhone4's to my retina's I will be cured, surely a crass miracle such as that should be child's play for such a monumental device...

  21. math failure by poetmatt · · Score: 4, Informative

    it's alright, the math assumes that nobody is nearsighted. Since nearsightedness is very common, the article's comments don't hold true at all.

    Some people can see magnitudes smaller arcmin than .6 up close, in fact like .2 or so. Anyone with 20/10 vision (which is common with correction such as eyeglasses or contacts) is going to still see plenty of pixelation.

    It's still a substantial improvement in pixels, but the article is incorrect.

    1. Re:math failure by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up-- he's right. With different light intensities, a couple of microns at arms' length isn't unreasonable. But wait, there's a reality distortion field....

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    2. Re:math failure by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Is 20/10 vision actually common with correction? The conventional wisdom among ophthalmologists I know is to slightly undercorrect, to something like 20/25, because overcorrecting seems to just promote even faster degeneration (though the evidence on that is mixed).

    3. Re:math failure by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      I have no idea. I have my opinions (disclaimer) but I am not an opthalmologist.

      However, mine has said that it's common to end up with 20/10 even if the lenses are intended to correct to 20/20.

      So honestly? I have no clue. Go see an eye doctor and ask.

    4. Re:math failure by thechemic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Each retina also has as blind spot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_%28vision%29). So until these lame iPhone have 2 displays, each with a huge hole in the middle, I dont want to hear anyone calling them retina displays! I dont go around calling blue things, purple. If it doesnt work like a retina, smell like a retina, act like a retina, or taste like one either... then dont call em retina displays. Got it Jobs?

      --
      Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
    5. Re:math failure by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      From 5 feet away, I can see the layer of multi-colour grime that coats my LCD.
      From 3 feet away, I can see individual pixels on my 2048x1152 23" display.
      From ~2 feet away, I can see the lines running between the individual pixels.

      And from half a block away, I can read street signs!

      I talked with a programmer friend about this a while back. He said that to him, the difference between 2xQ AA and 4xAA was indistinguishable, and there was no improvement beyond that. Well, to me, they all still look blocky. :P

    6. Re:math failure by medv4380 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I had 20/18 in one eye after lasik. If you're eyes are corrected to 20/20 you might see better if you have a more dense nerve bundle at the back of the eye. It's an individual thing on how much better you can see without glasses or correction of some kind. As far as the article is concerned if you have bad eyesite you have glasses to correct it so you should see perfectly and if you need glasses and have an iPhone you're an idiot or just too cheap to buy some glasses. If you take people who have what I uses to 20/400 and put them in your average people of 20/20 then yea you're going to be able to say the average person doesn't have good eyesight but that depends on how you want to twist the numbers.

    7. Re:math failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the solution is to stop improving on the Job's vision, and stop wearing those damn glasses.

    8. Re:math failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there vision is perfect and an image is rendered in high contrast black and white. However, antialiasing makes individual pixels along the contours of text or line graphics far more difficult to detect. The acute-visioned user may notice a tad of softness, but likely won't perceive pixels.

      However, anyone nearsighted who likes to take off their glasses before viewing the screen will indeed be able to focus on the phone at far closer distances and see pixels. This includes me. However, I expect to see flaws in most things viewed in this way, including printed material. I wouldn't expect a basic product claim aimed at a basic capability for the majority of the population to take abnormal vision into account.

      Jobs didn't present a scientific paper. He was just highlighting features of a phone.

    9. Re:math failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      20/20 is normal. That is a standard. Are there people, that for whatever reason, have better then 20/20 in some/all circumstances? Yes. They are not the defined normal. For 20/20, 300 dpi is a denser resolution then the eye can resolve at 12 inches. This is the claim that Apple is making, or at least implying. This is precisely what the article was saying but with more words.

      The article is correct. Redefining normal is not allowed. Unless you're Microsoft, in that case carry on but I expect a vision# api at some point in the future.

    10. Re:math failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have poor eyesight if you gotta be within half a block. I can read street signs that are three blocks away.

    11. Re:math failure by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      The thing is, we have these things called glasses and contact lenses. People with non-20/20 vision can, and often do, wear them to bring their visual acuity up to around 20/20. Anyone that can afford to buy an iPhone 4 can, almost certainly, afford corrective lenses. So, as much as I was also a skeptic about Job's claims initially, it looks like he was right.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    12. Re:math failure by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      I read an article a while back about professional athletes having the surgery in order to get better than 20/20 vision. Apparently, you can often go back multiple times (assuming you are willing to and have the money) in order to get better vision. It's supposed to be very popular with baseball pitchers, golfers, and other athletes that rely on their vision for accuracy. (for a while, Tiger Woods was on tv all the time hawking laser eye surgery). The article was asking why this is considered all that different from athletes that take steroids of use blood doping, especially with the potential for newer steroids with minimal side effects. It also questioned what will happen when we can do direct gene therapy to improve things like muscle strength/speed.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    13. Re:math failure by dan325 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      math fail to you, too

      Some people can see magnitudes smaller arcmin than .6 up close

      up close? The angle is constant for all distances.

      I think Jobs was justified in saying what he did as long as the average person can't distinguish the pixels

    14. Re:math failure by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I knew it!
      There is a hole in the display!

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1680926&cid=32519388

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    15. Re:math failure by Sethumme · · Score: 1

      It also questioned what will happen when we can do direct gene therapy to improve things like muscle strength/speed.

      Clearly, the answer to that is that Steve Jobs will have to develop a better iPhone.

    16. Re:math failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides that, the grandparent apparently thinks that .2 is *magnitudes* smaller than .6. Factually, it would have to be at *most* .006 to be *magnitudes* smaller than .6.

    17. Re:math failure by buttersnout · · Score: 1

      The claim was normal vision. Nearsightedness, though common, is by definition not normal vision. If you are going to start a sentence with "Some people can..." then you can't make a claim that the statement for normal vision is false.

    18. Re:math failure by Genda · · Score: 1

      There is a tremendous genetic variance in all the senses among diverse populations. Just as some people have virtually no taste and others are "Super Tasters" and have orders of magnitude more taste buds, there are people with super dense retinas. These people have exceptional "Visual Acuity". This is completely independent of being near or farsighted (though serious astigmatism precludes high visual acuity without vision correction.) I for one am terribly near-sighted, but have exceptionally high visual acuity. In my teens, I could focus my eye on a spot less than an inch from my eye, and could clearly make out a wide variety of single celled protozoans in a drop of pond water illuminated by a strong light source (eg. sunlight.)

      With visual correction, I would would make out pixels.

    19. Re:math failure by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      as would a large amount of the population, in contrast to the retina claims.

  22. get a life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    stop being a fan-boy, and find a better use for your time..
    Prophet Jobs can be mistaken too....

    1. Re:get a life by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      stop being a Hater, and find a better use for your time..
      Prophet Jobs can be correct too....

      FTFY

  23. iPhone significantly better than Droid by Yo,dog! · · Score: 0

    The iPhone 4 also has 50% more pixels than the Motorola Droid, which the expert had said was "comparable".

    1. Re:iPhone significantly better than Droid by Mark19960 · · Score: 1

      At 1 foot, it is comparable.
      I can't see any pixels on my Nexus one at a foot, and I can hardly see them at 4 inches.
      My eyes simply cannot focus on the screen much closer than 4 inches. (MY eyes)

      So am I impressed? Nope. Actually I find it funny that they need to claw at things like this to put their device over the top.

  24. the world seen through pixels. by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    You mean that real life doesn't have pixels everywhere I look? OMG I'm trapped in the machine!

    Seriously though, I remember one extra-long coding session. Near the end, everywhere I looked, things seemed to have a pixelated "overlay".

    Of course, if the iJobs has a "retina display", so do a lot of other devices.

    1. Re:the world seen through pixels. by toastar · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mean that real life doesn't have pixels everywhere I look?

      Have you ever seen how pixelated the beach is?

    2. Re:the world seen through pixels. by SiChemist · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm out of mod points, so I'll just say: +1 funny.

    3. Re:the world seen through pixels. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is a beach one of those things in the the images that come preinstalled on my computer?

    4. Re:the world seen through pixels. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I don't have time to link it...but there is an early cool XKCD about looking at the sky and seeing there is a pixel misdisplaying.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    5. Re:the world seen through pixels. by Foobar_ · · Score: 1
    6. Re:the world seen through pixels. by WilyCoder · · Score: 1

      that's a bug in the fragment shader the gods wrote...

    7. Re:the world seen through pixels. by werewolf1031 · · Score: 1


      Technically, those are stuck pixels. Dead pixels are black -- no red, green or blue whatsoever.

      Er, sorry... reflex. As you were.
      </pedant>

    8. Re:the world seen through pixels. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever seen how pixelated the beach is?

      The beach is one thing but Japanese muff is on a whole 'nother level.

  25. Who the F cares by m0s3m8n · · Score: 1

    My god. Just think of the poor electrons wasted by these posts. Can't wait for the first lawsuit because someone CAN see individual pixel.

    --
    Conservative, mod down for violating /. political norms.
  26. Normals? by thestudio_bob · · Score: 1

    Abby Normals?

    --
    The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains /.
  27. "Jobs is actually correct." Says that blog. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Jobs is actually correct." Says that blog. But not really. As another poster put it, if you have really BAD eyesight, then the Gameboy has "retina display".

    Te poor eyesight is because of the lens, not the retina. The retina on a person with 12/20 eyesight is as good as someone with 20/20 or 30/20 eyesight. The lens in front is just crap.

    And what's this "new and exciting" (yeah, right) display called? Lensdisplay? CorneaDisplay? No.

    Retina Display.

    If it hadn't been given a new dumb name as a marketing feature (and that "about 300dpi" figure means the N900 has had retina display for ages, hence not new and exciting), there would be nothing to worry about.

    If Jobs had said it had 4x the resolution so that apps for the old iPhone would be as crisp as native resolution and new iPhone aps EVEN CRISPER, then I would be A-OK with it.

    But no, since he over hyped that out the arse, we get to call it a POS.

    He upped the stakes.

    We upp the downsides.

    Don't like it, Jobs? Then stop over-selling.

    PS one message on that blog shows why this is a problem:

    "Man, forget the hype, I’m just impressed that they can pack pixels at such density."

    Uh, the iPhone isn't the first.

    But because it's been given a new name and hawked as new and innovative by "new and innovative" Steve Jobs at the expo, this fan jumps straight to the conclusion that this is new and amazing.

    It's *OK*, but not impressive as an Apple innovation.

  28. It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by name_already_taken · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not _projecting onto ones retina_ any more than another LCD screen is.

    But you see, they all do that. All visible objects do that. That's how our eyes work. Light reflected or emitted from objects uses the lens in your eye to project an image onto your retina. It is technically correct, and no, it's not anything special, other than being a high resolution display.

    Could it be, that this is just a trade name? (and that perhaps some people have a little too much time on their hands?)

    When I search for a document on my Mac, I don't expect an actual Spotlight to shine on the document.

    When I restore a file from a backup using Time Machine, I don't imagine that there's actual time travel taking place.

    If I use the feature that shows all of my overlapping windows resized so they fit on the screen and I can choose which one to work on, I don't expect the crew from 20/20 or 60 Minutes or Dateline NBC to show up and do an actual Exposé.

    Holy crap, I just found out there's no control tower or runway involved in using Airport networking! What a complete and total fraud!

    MobileMe doesn't actually cause me to move around either!

    And, worst of all, the damned Magic Mouse doesn't have any magical powers! I just tried to cast a Patronus Charm with it, just like in those Harry Potter movies, and the damn thing didn't work at all. It doesn't even fly around unless you throw it. I want my money back!

    --
    Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
    1. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the root of the problem, which you have so conveniently ignored. When people hear "Retina Display," they think one of two things.

      1. Oooh, this is a display which projects directly onto my retina, it's good to see the future has finally arrived! Hey, that's not what a "Retina Display" is, fuck you Apple!
      2. LOL WUTZ A RETINA DISPLAY OMG LET ME FOUND OUT ? OK KEWL IT LOOKS BETTER *buy*

      No one thinks "oh, this is Apple's deceptive marketing terminology for pushing a high DPI display!" No one.

      No. One.

    2. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by localman57 · · Score: 1

      Who cares. All it is is a way to generate interest. It's called marketing.

      I remember the first time I went to the Embedded Systems Conference, in 2000. Motorola (not freescale yet...) was pushing "Digital DNA" that year as part of thie microcontroller marketing. After I got through the first line of sales guys to an application engineer, I asked "What's Digital DNA?", nievely expecting some sort of new techology. Answer: "The same stuff we've been selling for years. But now they're branding it differently." What a let-down. But I still remember. And that's the point.

    3. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by dropadrop · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The thing here is that most Apple users don't actually realize this.

      I think you are quite mistaken. Most Apple users don't care about this, they are just happy it's called something they can pronounce. Most Apple users I know are not very informed about technological advances or acronyms, rather they are happy those are not used as it makes them feel they understand what they are using / buying.

    4. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      MobileMe doesn't actually cause me to move around either!

      When you use it to track the son of a bitch who stole your phone...

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    5. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1

      For starters try searching in System Preferences...

    6. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 1

      My magical iPad did get a girl to look at me in a cafe last month though. Well, it was either that or the ridiculously loud Hawaiian shirt I was wearing.

    7. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by name_already_taken · · Score: 1

      For starters try searching in System Preferences...

      I didn't find any settings for magic in there either.

      I do have a 3G iPad ordered though (before the June 6 cutoff), and I have high hopes as I've heard it said that it's a "magical device".

      --
      Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
    8. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by MrMacman2u · · Score: 1

      So much win... You sir are my new favorite person.

      --
      This signature is lame.
    9. Re:It's just a marketing name, for crap's sake by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1
      It's a joke.

      In system preferences a spotlight actually does shine over a dimmed panel when you do a search.

      Of course we all laughed because this has nothing to do with the actual spotlight engine.

  29. pixels and dots per inch are different by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Informative

    The human eye can resolve much finer than 300 dpi --- 400 dpi is where fonts start to look nice on a laserprinter (notably the NeXT laserprinter had a 400dpi mode in addition to the then more standard 300dpi --- it was distinctly noticeable when one changed printing modes) and imagesetters are easily differentiated by their output at 1,270 ppi vice 2,540 ppi (and there are models which go higher) --- see the book _Counterpunch: Making Type in the 16th Century, Designing Typefaces Now_ by Fred Smeijers for electron micrographs and a discussion of this which shows that the human eye can easily see the thickness of a 1/1,270th of an inch curl of steel.

    Granted, the iPhone screen is 326 _pixels_ per inch, so one gets anti-aliasing, yielding a higher effective dpi, and possibly sub-pixel rendering, but screens need to get better yet.

    Image resolution is measured in several ways:

    ppi (pixels per inch) --- input / file resolution
    dpi (dots per inch) --- output resolution for a single ink colour
    lpi - (lines per inch) --- output resolution for ``halftones'' which allows the simulation of multiple levels when one can only do on/off --- newspapers use ~85 lpi, uncoated stock in books ~133lpi, magazines 150 lpi or higher, art books 200 lpi --- different printing processes/tecniques are used for better quality or fewer generations

    A pixel is a ``picture element'' a unit of a raster grid which can be more finely differentiated than just black or white --- the coarsest pixel I can think of would be the monochrome NeXT Cube (and later Slabs) which had black, white and two shades of grey.

    Try putting a 326 ppi greyscale image of a Gustav Doré engraving on the iPhone and compare that to the actual engraving in a book --- the difference between them will be obvious to anyone w/ good vision.

    Different printing and halftoning techniques make lpi rather complex --- stochastic screening does away w/ it for example and exhibits improvement to the limits of output resolution --- 3600 dpi on some imagesetters.

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 1

      But the first thing I think of in terms of looking at fine detail is moving my eye closer to the page. I would not expect to do any of these things with a mobile phone, at least not for many years when such high quality might become available.

      Not to mention that when using a computing device rather than print, zoom is a reasonable substitute for taking a closer look. So do screens need to get better than 300ppi?

    2. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that when using a computing device rather than print, zoom is a reasonable substitute for taking a closer look.

      No.
      It.
      Fucking.
      Isn't.

      I am fucking sick of having to pinch and zoom endlessly to be able to read shit on my Nexus One, with it's shitty screen that's half the advertised resolution.

    3. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 1

      Well, if you've got all the patience of a two year old looking at a marshmallow, expect to get fucking sick of a lot of things in life. Just don't expect anyone to care.

      If you take your head out your arse for a second, you'll have noticed we weren't talking about you and your phone. Once you're past 300ppi, where the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to notice any improvements, then zooming or holding the screen 6" away are your only options. And you'd complain just as much about having to move the screen closer, I reckon. So zoom is a reasonable substitute to wanting 1200ppi.

      Still, I'm sure you've got a lengthy list of engineering and manufacturing achievements with which you'll embarrass me for thinking you're an idiot. I quake in anticipation.

    4. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Here's a tip you fucking dipshit:

      You were talking about my phone.

      "Not to mention that when using a computing device rather than print, zoom is a reasonable substitute for taking a closer look."

      Next time don't make a general statement you don't want to be called out on, retard.

      Zooming and holding the screen 6 inches are the only options? Are you really that dumb? How about making the screen larger? People seem to like big screens. Look at TVs. Look at portable media players. Look at phones. Look at the iPad.

      Believe it or not, screen size & resolution is the answer, as it always has been. Zooming and panning is NOT a substitute for raw screen area and pixel density.

      Resolution isn't fucking wasted. Who the fuck came up with this 12" rule? If I want to see detail on something, I can take a closer look. With phones this is fucking easy, as you can try 10 inches, 8 inches, or 6 or 4 or 1. If you're fucking blind you'll be looking at EVERYTHING IN YOUR FUCKING LIFE more closely anyway. A phone is no different.

    5. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Let me point out something that you've missed in your rambling (and mistaken) explanation about why laser printers went beyond 300dpi. It's not because typical people can see individual dots in a typical use-case. It's because 300dpi with 256-tone gray-scale printing on a monochrome printer is the equivalent of 37.5ppi on a monochrome computer display. You see, each individual *dot* a printer can spit out is not equivalent of a pixel on screen. You see the dots in a 300dpi gray-scale image, not because one dot is distinguishable from the one next to it, but because some of those dots are 'turned off' in order to produce partial tones. (Actually, it's more common that you see gaps even in solid black areas simply because of defects in the paper's surface, but that's another discussion entirely.) This is called dithering, and printer manufacturers have done all sorts of research into what dithering patterns reproduce what shades while still looking as 'solid' as possible.

      To turn the comparison on its head, if you look at a reasonably typical 100dpi LCD display, you'll find that each pixel actually contains a whole series of sub-pixels, each much smaller than the single pixel 'unit'. It's not uncommon to find 8 or more sub-pixels of each color, though there are usually more of certain colors because the human eye is not equally sensitive to all colors. Assuming for a moment that we have sub-pixels arranged in a 6x6 grid within each pixel (in order to provide a square pixel with an equal number of each color sub-pixel), you'll find that the 100ppi 'typical' LCD has about 600 sub-pixels per inch.

    6. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      An LCD pixel has 3 or 4 cells, typically RGB, but there are other schemes --- that's why sub-pixel rendering techniques like Microsoft ClearText make slightly odd coloured halos around the edges of letters and don't work as well when a display is rotated to portrait (it's most useful for evening out stem widths).

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    7. Re:pixels and dots per inch are different by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 1

      You're not fucking blind - you can use a device with a 3.7" screen. So a pathetic whining brat struggling to see through your self-pitying tears maybe, but not blind. So you're short sighted. Join the club. It would be really funny at this point if you wanted to get in to the whole game of "who is more visually impaired?".

      "Zooming and panning is NOT a substitute for raw screen area and pixel density."
        - So what, you just download Google Maps for the entire planet and look closely at the bit you're interested in?

      "Look at TVs. Look at portable media players. Look at the iPad."
        - Great examples! Every single one about 200ppi or less, used at a distance greater than 12", and with significantly lower resolution than pictures taken with a decent camera (e.g. 1,920 * 1080p TV vs 4,272 * 2,848 pixel picture). Some people might say that when making a point about using a bigger screen to avoid zooming, these would be incredibly fucking stupid examples to give. But I say you must be a genius visiting from another reality where it makes sense.

      "Who the fuck came up with the 12" inch rule?"
        - No one. It's not even a rule. But as a guideline, it is simply an observation of the reality the rest of us live in. Try staying for a while. It's fun, honest. You might even learn how to speak to people.

      Listen, I know you're probably real pleased with your journey to this world so far. Figuring out that a TV screen is larger than a mobile phone must have been a real achievement, coming from a place where 1080 is more than 2848 and all. But there's some tricky stuff you need to get to grips with, like being able to understand two sentences at a time. Entire paragraphs, even. Here's an example:

      "Not to mention when using a computing device rather than print, zoom is a reasonable substitute for taking a closer look. So do screens need to get better than 300ppi?"

      Humans use this thing called context. It helps deal with complex concepts where individual sentences aren't enough. I mean, you could just read the first sentence above on its own, but that's kind of stupid. On its own, you might start thinking about devices with less than 300ppi. That would lead to some pretty moronic thinking, thinking about phones with lower resolution, or something really dumb like TV screens in a thread about high density computer displays. Not good - people will wonder what's wrong with you. Your disguise might not hold up.

      Words like "reasonable" are a dead giveaway, too. That pretty much tells you the discussion is going to require some subtlety. Be sure you're capable of understanding the conversation before diving in.

      Not everyone's going to think you're a genius. So my tips: learn how to count, learn how to read, cut the swearing so you don't draw to much attention to yourself. And enjoy your stay.

  30. Jumbotron by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

    I heard the other day that the jumbotron at the new cowboy stadium is a retina display.... from a distance of 27 miles.

    This seems to be an arbitrary way of claiming that your screen is better than everyone else's.

    It's nice, but it isn't revolutionary outside of the iWorld. It's only a little bit denser than other phone displays that have been around for months. Did anyone notice the demonstration of the difference between the two versions of the letter a? In the video, did everyone notice how the pixels on the "better" a just kind of disappeared? Will someone please tell me how that isn't false advertising? He was comparing a pixel density that was probably 50x greater than in the other "a."

    1. Re:Jumbotron by mr_matticus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I heard the other day that the jumbotron at the new cowboy stadium is a retina display.... from a distance of 27 miles.

      Which kind of proves the point. It's not one at the distance it's meant to be used.

      This seems to be an arbitrary way of claiming that your screen is better than everyone else's.

      No more or less arbitrary than any other way.

      t's nice, but it isn't revolutionary outside of the iWorld.

      It IS revolutionary, and unless Apple helped develop or fund it, it's got nothing to do with "iWorld".

      It's only a little bit denser than other phone displays that have been around for months.

      66 ppi isn't a "little bit denser". It's a 25% increase, which is huge for a mature technology. At this size, nothing even close to this density has yet been achieved.

      When you look at IPS displays, nothing even approaching 200 ppi has been marketed before.

      In either case, it's a massive technological achievement in an industry you clearly don't understand.

      Will someone please tell me how that isn't false advertising?

      Because it wasn't advertising. There was no representation that any device was being used, but only that the effect of higher density was being demonstrated, which is hard to do on a single fixed-resolution projector. And it wasn't anywhere near 50x greater. The type example was about 4-5x greater density.

      The actual grid examples, as well as the demos of the actual product were accurate.

    2. Re:Jumbotron by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

      The Motorola Droid came out last year, and has a pixel density of 265 ppi. It isn't as dense as iPhone 4, but iPhone's increase is NOT revolutionary. Revolutionary was what happened last year when standard densities nearly doubled.

      Referring to the false-advertising... are you sure you're thinking of the same clip as me? It starts with a 4x density grid, then zooms out to show 2 very different versions of the letter a. It was absolutely implied that it was based on the original 4x density grid where it was zoomed out from. As it zoomed out, the grid disappeared, as did the "pixels" (before becoming "infinitely" small). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJxezPZNckA Watch the pixels on the right "a" magically disappear.

    3. Re:Jumbotron by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

      When I said "densities nearly doubled" I meant PPI nearly doubled (which means much much better improvement in density occurred last year).

      Also, here's a webpage explaining what I'm talking about with the false advertising: http://www.digitalsociety.org/2010/06/apple-using-fake-489-to-815-ppi-on-iphone-4-ads/

    4. Re:Jumbotron by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      The Motorola Droid came out last year, and has a pixel density of 265 ppi. It isn't as dense as iPhone 4, but iPhone's increase is NOT revolutionary.

      The Motorola Droid's display (not unique to the Motorola Droid) was itself a revolutionary achievement. Again, you're disproving your own point.

      50 ppi is a major forward jump. Do you not understand that the reason the Droid was 265 ppi was because that was as high as could be achieved in volume? That they would have LOVED to go to 280 ppi or 300 or 226 if it were possible, but it wasn't?

      Referring to the false-advertising... are you sure you're thinking of the same clip as me? It starts with a 4x density grid, then zooms out to show 2 very different versions of the letter a.

      I was talking about the full-length introduction, but I can speak to the promo clip, too. They're showing the effect of increasing density--a bit clumsily in the shorter promo spot, but it's not a claim of an actual image from the product, nor a comparison against another product. It's a blogger trying to stir up a tempest in a teapot.

      The exaggeration was a 4x instead of a 2x doubling, not anywhere near 50x, and maybe some labeling droid will make them slap on a disclaimer at the bottom, but the only way to make it a false claim is if it were described as a screen shot or "actual size". Just showing the effect as you zoom out between a letter that looks blocky and one that doesn't means, that some detail must be enlarged for the physically larger comparison. The same thing occurs on a cereal box.

      People wouldn't understand "retina display" if the zoomed-out version still looked blocky, and you can't accurately show 300+ ppi on a TV or computer monitor without some conceit.

    5. Re:Jumbotron by Kegetys · · Score: 1

      > 66 ppi isn't a "little bit denser". It's a 25% increase, which is huge for a mature
      > technology. At this size, nothing even close to this density has yet been achieved.

      The Toshiba Portege G900 came out in 2007 and it has a 311dpi display, same for the Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 in 2008. So in 3 years the increase is about 5%, not 25%.

    6. Re:Jumbotron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The iPhone4 display does sound really nice, but it is not revolutionary. My Canon 550D has a 3:2, 3 inch display with 1,040,000 pixels: somewhere around 1250x832 It's not a touch screen, but the pixel density is substantially better than Apple's.

    7. Re:Jumbotron by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Using a 3" display. There have been 300 ppi displays before at 2-3", but none this large.

      Jumping to 3.5" at the same density is an increase of 36% in pixel count, and yield problems with that is why this previously hasn't been achievable in volume, even with a 5-25% lower pixel density.

    8. Re:Jumbotron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using a 3" display. There have been 300 ppi displays before at 2-3", but none this large.

      Perhaps. However, IBM released a 22-inch display with a 200dpi screen in 2001.

      I say again, 2001. Nearly ten years ago.

      yield problems with that is why this previously hasn't been achievable in volume, even with a 5-25% lower pixel density.

      We have had the ability to build super high-resolution displays for ages, there's just too little demand for them. I guess people mostly feel the displays are sharp enough already, but I bet one of the problems is Microsoft's stupid fixation on pixel measurements on interface elements.

    9. Re:Jumbotron by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      I say again, 2001. Nearly ten years ago.

      At $18,000. It never sold in volume.

      We have had the ability to build super high-resolution displays for ages

      Not economically at the necessary yields.

      there's just too little demand for them.

      There's plenty of interest, just not at the prices they'd necessarily cost and the low volumes they'd necessarily entail.

      I bet one of the problems is Microsoft's stupid fixation on pixel measurements on interface elements.

      Absolutely. But 200ppi is where you begin to enable resolution-independent scaling, so it would be ideal to offer if anyone would reasonably buy it. But they wouldn't. It's just not a feasible technology yet on that scale. It's taken us until this year to get it from 3" to 3.5". There's a long way to go to 22" at under $2000, which I think is an absolute ceiling for this kind of display with consumer features.

    10. Re:Jumbotron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only a little bit denser than other phone displays that have been around for months.

      66 ppi isn't a "little bit denser". It's a 25% increase, which is huge for a mature technology. At this size, nothing even close to this density has yet been achieved.

      When you look at IPS displays, nothing even approaching 200 ppi has been marketed before.

      In either case, it's a massive technological achievement in an industry you clearly don't understand.

      Really, you think this is new technology? The IBM T220/1 had a resolution of 3840×2400 on a 22" display for a ppi of 204. Oh, and they were introduced in 2001.

  31. Close to the End of the Line by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    What's really exciting about the iPhone's new resolution is that we're approaching the point where higher rez doesn't make any difference. We might be there already for lots of people with subaverage visual acuity, or just getting near for those with supervision. Since marketers will keep pushing for higher rez even after it can't make a visible difference, because they can sell the numbers to the ignorant and the gullible, we will soon have enough resolution that nobody will see the difference if it went any higher. At which point the marketing will start to switch to some other visual feature that actually looks different for the money.

    I'd love to see display tech finally start to get off the grid. Patterns that aren't a regular grid, because the eye can see the grid itself, or that there's some kind of grid, even when the individual pixels can't be distinguished from their neighbors. Or off the grid of time, with pixels updating at times not strictly synced with each other on a frame clock. The retina's image sensing cells are in a stochastic distribution around a sinusoidal rosette, each independently signaling over the optic nerve at about 40Hz. So once framerates are above 80Hz (the usual Nyquist frequency doubling limit), the time grid itself will be the limit, not the rate of the grid. The colorspace itself is a grid that's pretty regular throughout R, G and B, even though the eye sees in a very uneven colorspace that's really Yellow/Blue and Red/Green in axes, and mostly greens. 16.8M colors is probably the color resolution, but far too many non-green colors are indistinguishable in displays, while there aren't nearly enough greens to look like natural colors.

    When we get off those grids, in space and time, these displays will start to jump in realism again. We're now at the point where just investing in higher resolution is no longer making any real difference. The rest of the grids await mastery.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Close to the End of the Line by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Mr. Ruby, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this page is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    2. Re:Close to the End of the Line by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 0, Troll

      You are a fool. Just because you can't understand a post doesn't mean you should open your mouth.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Close to the End of the Line by sexconker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're a fool, just because you don't get a movie reference doesn't mean you should call someone a fool.

      And I understand all of the things you're talking about, your post just made no sense.

      You're suggesting that 80 Hz, 16777216 colors, and shitty resolution are enough.

      You talk about the "colorspace" of the eye, the "color resolution" of 24-bit color, and completely ignore the color space of the displays themselves. (Words have meanings, try to get them right.)

      You completely ignore (or are oblivious to) the fact that much press work is done in 36- or 48-bit color for a reason.

      You don't understand the fact that the signaling rate over the optic nerve has ZERO connection to the timing of a display refresh.

      You suggest creating non-uniform pixels because it will get us "off the grid". You suggest driving and refreshing each pixel individually because it will get us "off the grid".

      Your suggestions offer zero advantages and add orders of magnitude more complexity.

      You're a moron.

  32. it's Vulva you biologically ignorant clod by Kupfernigk · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The bits you are referring to are the vulva. Before trying to get a girl to show you hers, you might at least learn to get the terminology right. I don't normally post on these topics, but this particular misuse annoys me as much as the people that think cars have breaks rather than brakes.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:it's Vulva you biologically ignorant clod by Wovel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Pretty sure asking a girl to see her vulva would just creep her out.

    2. Re:it's Vulva you biologically ignorant clod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can see a vagina, you fucking twat. Just got to maneuver some skin.

    3. Re:it's Vulva you biologically ignorant clod by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I've had much better luck with "sacred garden" (and vulgar words) than with "vulva".

      Tho my sample size is too small to be sure. I must increase the sample size.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  33. What about those of us with xray vision? by sjonke · · Score: 1

    When will a company step up to plate for those of us with xray vision? I'm so sick of checking my email while on the train and seeing underwear.

    --
    --- What?
  34. Very well said by jamrock · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Android's popularity might have more to do with it being available on more devices, including much cheaper devices.

    Excellent point, and as a corollary to that it's worth noting that the plethora of Android devices are available on all of the Big Four networks, while iPhone continues to be available only on AT&T. It says something about the popularity of the iPhone that it's available only on arguably the worst of the major networks yet is stll No. 2 behind only Blackberry.

    Much has been made of the fact that the Android platform outsold the iPhone in the 1st Quarter, but the Apple-haters crowing that this somehow signals the ascendancy of Android and the end for the iPhone's supremacy are bound to be bitterly disappointed when the iPhone becomes available on othe networks. Not "if", "when". The general consensus is that it will be available on Verizon sometime in 2011, and according to Shaw Wu of Kaufman Bros., it may be on T-Mobile as early as fall of this year. In my opinion, the rapid sales of Android devices have as much to do with Verizon's aggressive promotion, as well as the reluctance of people to switch from their existing providers to AT&T, as the merits of the platform itself. That calculus will change dramatically when the iPhone throws off the AT&T shackles. Android outselling iPhone in the 1st Quarter of 2010 may well come to be looked on as an anomaly

    1. Re:Very well said by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      i reckon at&t is losing exclusivity around january 2011. At least that would be one interpretation of why they would allow people who weren't otherwise eligible for an upgrade to get an iphone4 now. They certainly wouldn't want people to finish their contract and have the option of going to verizon for iphone4. Better to lock them in now while they still can.

    2. Re:Very well said by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Excellent point, and as a corollary to that it's worth noting that the plethora of Android devices are available on all of the Big Four networks, while iPhone continues to be available only on AT&T. It says something about the popularity of the iPhone that it's available only on arguably the worst of the major networks yet is stll No. 2 behind only Blackberry.

      Much has been made of the fact that the Android platform outsold the iPhone in the 1st Quarter, but the Apple-haters crowing that this somehow signals the ascendancy of Android and the end for the iPhone's supremacy are bound to be bitterly disappointed when the iPhone becomes available on othe networks. Not "if", "when". The general consensus is that it will be available on Verizon sometime in 2011, and according to Shaw Wu of Kaufman Bros., it may be on T-Mobile as early as fall of this year. In my opinion, the rapid sales of Android devices have as much to do with Verizon's aggressive promotion, as well as the reluctance of people to switch from their existing providers to AT&T, as the merits of the platform itself. That calculus will change dramatically when the iPhone throws off the AT&T shackles. Android outselling iPhone in the 1st Quarter of 2010 may well come to be looked on as an anomaly

      Apple gets a big kickback from AT&T on the monthly bill that iPhone users pay. That's the real reason for exclusivity despite the shitty AT&T network. The lack of choice is purely due to Apple's greed. No wonder they're making money head over heels while many iPhone suffer with poor voice coverage and clamber for choice. However, you will find that many Apple lovers love to ignore this fact or are ignorant of it.

      --
      This space for rent.
    3. Re:Very well said by cyber-dragon.net · · Score: 1

      Much has been made about that report for sure... but has anyone actually read the press release?

      It isn't even based off real sales numbers, it was based on 150k phone surveys.

      Android fanboys were so happy about the announcement they never looked to see it was meaningless data.

    4. Re:Very well said by GameMaster · · Score: 1

      Another corollary to that is that, while the iPhone is only available on one network, it has been available for sale far longer than any of the android phones. I'm not saying that it's a gaurantee that android will overtake iPhone, but it is something to consider in the equation.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
  35. _____ the iPhone! by thechemic · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's not a retina display to EVERYONE so it's still false advertising. Then again, the iPhone isnt a PDA for everyone either. It's an entry level PDA for people that cant figure out how to use more capable devices... The iPhone is to PDA users what America Online was to internet users. Less capable, restrictive, and EASY to use. Remember when you used AOL for years, you strutted around telling people proudly, "I use AMERICA ONLINE". Then, years later, you found out you were an idiot for doing so?

    --
    Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
  36. Bad Astronomer, Worse Opthamologist by DynaSoar · · Score: 1, Interesting

    1. There is no such thing as "perfect" vision. There is normal vision that requires no correction. Typically that comes down to 20/20 vision. There are some people with better vision. Very good eyes are measured as 20/10. There is no limit, physiological or theoretical, hence no "perfect".

    2. Resolving things at any distance requires far more than static placement of object with X size and retina of Y resolving power. The visual system (NOTE the retina does not resolve ANYTHING. The visual system as a whole does.) resolves things by a complex interplay between what's presented at any given point in time, what's presented at other times but is cognitively determined to be the same target, the speed at which the boundaries of images cross the same point in the visual field, and calculations that occur in the visual cortex on these things, which result in a VISUAL ACUITY (that's the term they were addressing, or should have been) that is often far greater than can be conceived of when one considers the components of the eye as though they were parts of a camera or other device. They are not, and the terms used for those don't apply.

    3. Please tell me no one has bothered to test this empirically. I'm always looking for things my undergrad labs can do real science on, especially when it punctures some overinflated gas bag.

    Plait, there's more than running numbers, there's knowing what to run numbers on. There's also knowing when to STFU. There's still also acting like a professional and not confusing people who'll believe you because you've made a name in the entertainment field. This last is something a real scientist/educator, not a blogger who happened to hold some science jobs and now makes a living getting attention for talking about science stuff like he knows it, would understand -- so we can expect your next spew in what, 600 words of 4 letters each is 2400 letters, and 40 cps is, an hour?

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
    1. Re:Bad Astronomer, Worse Opthamologist by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      There certainly is a theoretical limit, but it's not really a factor here.

    2. Re:Bad Astronomer, Worse Opthamologist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Wrong. There is both a physiological limit and a theoretical limit. Physiological being that the slightest imperfections in any optical system reduces maximum resolving capability. Not to mention you start off limited by the pupil having a dynamic range of on average only 6 f-stops.

      Theoretically our eyes could only have an f-stop so high where diffraction would begin to decay resolving capability. That is if they weren't limited to around 8 f-stops.

      Maybe you've heard of this thing called a "blind spot."

  37. How did the competitors "fail"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the iPod brand of products did and still does sell well, it's a very small segment of the entire portable personal music products market. Most estimates put it at around 13% to 18%, with some liberal estimates even giving them up to 24%.

    The situation is even worse for the iPhone. It's only about 12% to 13% of the entire smartphone market. Offerings from RIM alone, plus those of other vendors far outnumber the number of Apple devices.

    It's difficult to say that Apple's competitors have "failed" when these competitors hold 4 to 8 times more of the market that Apple's products have. In fact, in the smartphone market, we see the adoption rate of Android-based smartphones growing significantly faster than that of the iPhone.

    The only market that Apple's devices hold nearly perfectly is the unsubstantiated hype market. Nobody can touch the Apple market when it comes to drumming up undeserved excitement.

    1. Re:How did the competitors "fail"? by tumnasgt · · Score: 1
  38. Define "normal". by jonadab · · Score: 1

    > I found that Jobs is correct for people with normal vision,

    By "normal vision", do you mean average (20/20)? Because, very few people have normal vision. Most people either have above-average or below-average vision. In fact, nearly half the population has *better* than average vision. Last time I was checked (which, admittedly, has been more than ten years), I had 40/20 vision, which is about twice as good as average. This is not abnormal, or even unusual.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    1. Re:Define "normal". by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      Steve Jobs' exact words were "it turns out the limit for most people's eyesight is around 300dpi at 12 inches. We have 326dpi, so there's plenty of room there."

      If you read the article, it says that 20/20 vision is 286dpi at 12inches. It seems perfectly clear that Jobs' claim of "about 300dpi and we have more than that" is perfectly reasonable.

    2. Re:Define "normal". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wikipedia says:

      Visual acuity depends upon how accurately light is focused on the retina (mostly the macular region), the integrity of the eye's neural elements, and the interpretative faculty of the brain. [11] Normal visual acuity is frequently considered to be what was defined by Snellen as the ability to recognize an optotype when it subtended 5 minutes of arc, that is Snellen's chart 20/20 feet, 6/6 meter, 1.00 decimal or 0.0 logMAR. In humans, the maximum acuity of a healthy, emmetropic eye (and even ametropic eyes with correctors) is approximately 20/16 to 20/12, so it is inaccurate to refer to 20/20 visual acuity as "perfect" vision. 20/20 is the visual acuity needed to discriminate two points separated by 1 arc minute—about 1/16 of an inch at 20 feet. This is because a 20/20 letter, E for example, has three limbs and two spaces in between them, giving 5 different detailed areas. The ability to resolve this therefore requires 1/5 of the letter's total arc, which in this case would be 1 minute. The significance of the 20/20 standard can best be thought of as the lower limit of normal or as a screening cutoff. When used as a screening test subjects that reach this level need no further investigation, even though the average visual acuity of healthy eyes is 20/16 to 20/12.

      Emphasis mine. If "normal" is 20/16 (0.8 arcminutes) to 20/12 (0.6 arcminutes), then "median" is about 20/14 (0.7 arcminutes). They don't specify a standard deviation, but since they've given it as a range, that implies it has to be at least +/-1 standard deviation (covering 68% of the population). If the standard deviation that large (i.e. 0.1 arcminutes), then only 1/44 of the population has 20/10 vision. However, if the range is +/- 2 (covering 95% of the population), then the standard deviation is 0.5 arcminutes, and only 1 person in 30,000 has 20/10 vision. Again, I don't claim to know the standard deviation, but it's easy to conclude that it must be at least 0.1 arcminutes, so that means your vision is in the top 2.3%. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that 20/10 is in the top 0.14%, and I wouldn't be shocked to hear that fewer than 10,000 Americans have 20/10 vision.

    3. Re:Define "normal". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it is fairly unusual to have 40/20 vision, though (as I recall) less so than having 20/40 vision. While relatively few people might have *exactly* 20/20 vision, that is the measured 'normal' vision, and *most* people are clustered fairly close to that.

  39. pinheads by goombah99 · · Score: 0

    Isn't this a bit of pinhead angel counting? Who holds a phone 12 inches from their face when looking at anything where pixelation matters a hoot.

    If you hold it like a book in your lap or on a table top when you sit it's about 2 feet.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:pinheads by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      things look more pixelated up close, especially with nearsighted individuals. In other news, water is wet. Ric Romero reporting.

    2. Re:pinheads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I hold it in my lap I cant see it at all. Is this some fault with the American version?

  40. Re:Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Why? Did it land too close to you?

  41. Ok. So only for the older of us then. by ((hristopher+_-*-_-* · · Score: 1

    So Steve it seems like perfect to you're eyes, but not so to your younger buyers.

  42. iDon't have the app you want by tepples · · Score: 1

    The real problem is going to be "does it run *this* app".

    And the answer is "No, because the app doesn't exist on iPhone, in turn because Apple's regulations don't allow it. But Droid does."

    1. Re:iDon't have the app you want by cyber-dragon.net · · Score: 1

      Actually most developers are very frustrated with the Android market place thus you will get more apps on the iTunes marketplace.

      My company has been working with a major motion picture studio who can't make the app tore work, and going to their app in the the store crashes the market on the phone.

      If Google can't make this work for a billion dollar a year movie studio what prayer do little developers have?

    2. Re:iDon't have the app you want by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      iPhone apps are the "brand name" apps to most users.

  43. The legend of... by tepples · · Score: 1

    Calling something a mouthful of numbers and acronyms, such as "a 326 DPI LCD panel", isn't going to get nearly the consumer attention as a "Retina Display" will.

    They could always go the Konami route and call it the MAX 300 display.

  44. 66dpi? Yes, if it's compared to 3000dpi it's nowt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    66dpi? Yes, if it's compared to 3000dpi it's nowt. It's very little against 300dpi.

    But it's not even 66dpi.

    N900: 267dpi.

    iPhone: 326dpi.

    Difference: 59dpi.

    How old is the 900?

    The screen of the much older Nokia N770 had 225, with a much larger screen.

    Jobs hyped it and so a hyped rebuttal is appropriate.

    Woz would probably have gone on about WHY they picked that resolution and what cool tech they used for it. E.g. "We picked double the resolution and made sure that this display would be AS sharp at least as your current iPhone with all your current apps, but with apps that know about resolution, show them to even greater detail!".

    The N900 resolution was probably picked because that's the resolution of some standard Widscreen display for video purposes. If Apple had picked the same, then there would HAVE to be some antialiasing to fit the app to the screen, making it more blurred.

  45. Most people don't care by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Well, the Android phones have been having quite an impact in the market recently.

    True.

    The big benefit of "being able to run the software you want rather than what Steve Jobs says you can run" seems to speak to people, since that's the major thing Android has going for it that the iPhone doesn't.

    Whether that is a "big" benefit or not is a matter of opinion. Your argument is one that speaks to a segment of the geek crowd here on slashdot but hardly anyone else actually cares. Very few people actually feel constrained by the software available on the iPhone. You might be one who does but if so you are in a VERY small minority. Doesn't mean you are wrong to care but most people simply don't feel your pain. In short, if you want to explain the success of Android you'll have to look for a different argument.

    Really the success of Android probably lies mostly in the fact that the iPhone is only available through AT&T and the other carriers and handset manufacturers needed a product to compete. Verizon wasn't about to sit around and not compete with the iPhone and the other alternatives (Blackberry and Nokia) simply weren't getting the job done. Most of the competitors prior to the iPhone competed on feature lists (and arguably still do) but not so much on actual usability. The Nokia I have have sitting on my desk can technically do everything an iPhone 3G can do but it has an interface only a geek could love. Android has provided a way to reach the segment of consumers attracted to the iPhone in a way the alternatives didn't.

  46. Re:Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Same goes for anyone who puts a dollar sign in "Microsoft". As if Apple is in it for the good of the universe, and not profit just like every other corporation. Maybe we should all start writing "$teve Job$" too.

  47. Stop making stuff up by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    In fact, nearly half the population has *better* than average vision.

    Somebody doesn't understand the difference between mean and median.

  48. ZOMG! by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1, Insightful

    A consumer products manufacturer makes a slightly exaggerated claim about the specs on one of it's new models! Stop the presses! Film at 11!

    I mean, really, what's the big deal? Stuff like this goes on all the time and people just laugh it off. Here on Slashdot, however, there have been hundreds of posts over the last two days about it. To quote William Shatner: Get a life!

    --
    This ain't rocket surgery.
    1. Re:ZOMG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because the "retina display" was one of only a whole bagful of lies Steve told in his keynote. Others were that they invented a new kind of steel for the iPhone 4 and implying that they invented video conferencing and that it hadn't been around since the 80s.

    2. Re:ZOMG! by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      I'm nearsighted, and have been all my life. I find it amazing that this 318 PPI display will look like 'crap' when I've been using 90-120 PPI monitors all my life, and none of them looked like 'crap' once they got past the old VGA standard. This whole argument is ridiculous. I don't see the Android folks in here defending their displays because they must also look like 'crap', since all of them are a lower pixel density than the iPhone and they use a sub-quality PenTile Matrix display on top of that. Where is the outrage?

      http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2010/03/secrets-of-the-nexus-ones-screen-science-color-and-hacks.ars/

      I'm looking at a 27" display at a distance of about 18", and it has a PPI of something like 208. I can't see any individual pixels, nor could I on my older 150 PPI monitor. This whole argument that it will look like shit is patently stupid not to put too fine a point on it.

      What the hell happened to slashdot. I used to expect intelligent discussion in here but not it's gotten so bad with rhetoric and 'taking sides' that facts and logic have become meaningless. I keep wondering when Engadget took over the ./ domain.

    3. Re:ZOMG! by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      Ahem. And I say it once again: Get a life!

      If you can't do that, at least grow a pair and start posting with your nick.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    4. Re:ZOMG! by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      I just pulled out my cell phone, which has a screen resolution about half that of the new iPhone. At 12" I can't see any pixels because of my presbyopia--it's far too blurred for me to even be able to read it, let alone be bothered by pixelation. When I hold it at a comfortable viewing distance, I can't see any pixels either.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
  49. Whoops, forgot about Nyquist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All this arguing doesn't take into account the Nyquist limit which applies to vision as well.

  50. Rubbish by jamrock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple gets a big kickback from AT&T on the monthly bill that iPhone users pay. That's the real reason for exclusivity despite the shitty AT&T network. The lack of choice is purely due to Apple's greed.

    Even if your argument were factually correct, which it is not, exercising a modicum of common sense would explain that it is AT&T who gain from exclusivity, not Apple. When Apple, approached the carriers with the iPhone, AT&T were the only ones who did not point blank reject Apple's demand that the device not carry the network logo, as well as crippling the phone with their network's "features" and burying it in shovelware. AT&T demanded exclusive rights for five years in return for agreeing to Apple's terms.

    Remember that no one could have predicted that the device would become a runaway smash hit, and AT&T were in the driver's seat; they were the only option left to Apple after the other networks had rejected Apple's terms. Jobs demanded a percentage of iPhone data revenues in return for exclusivity, to help offset lost opportunities with other carriers. This was a no-brainer for AT&T. If iPhone failed, no big deal, they sell a hell of a lot of different devices, and if only a tiny fraction of their customers used the iPhone, giving Apple a cut of iPhone data revenues would have a minimal impact on their bottom line.

    Except...the iPhone succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams. It brought AT&T millions of new customers, and data traffic spiked, bringing the network to its knees. AT&T made money hand over fist off their exclusivity deal, attracting new customers and retaining them despite their shitty service. Case in point, a friend of mine in Seattle who switched from Verizon to AT&T in February just to get an iPhone. She had wanted to trade her BlackBerry Curve for a touchscreen smartphone, and the only thing Verizon had at the time was the Storm. She loathed it, and whenever we spoke she'd complain bitterly about it. When she called me a couple months ago just to tell me how much she loved her iPhone, AT&T dropped the call three times in fifteen minutes. When I redialed her for the third time and asked her how the hell she could put up with such awful service, she said that the iPhone was such a joy for her to use that she was willing to tolerate it, but said she'd jump back to Verizon in a New York minute if they got the device. In fact, her enthusiasm for the iPhone was such that she said she was considering getting her first Mac, which couldn't have gone over too well at home; her husband works for Microsoft. And just to forestall the argument that iPhone users are sheep, yes, she is a non-technical user, but far from stupid; she's an emergency room physician, and a damned good one too. It never fails to amuse me when smug, elitist techies describe users of Apple products as smug and elitist.

    To suggest that Apple were the ones who demanded exclusivity is laughable, and that they did so out of greed, is simply irrational. Why the hell would they willingly restrict their own potential sales? You sound like just another anti-Apple jihadist, willing to distort facts in any way you can to demonstrate that Apple is "evil".

    1. Re:Rubbish by DJRumpy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Probably one of the more insightful and 'sane' comments I've seen on Apple in a very long while. Unfortunately, the will mod you down as 'troll' or 'flamebait' when you actually make very good arguments. The anti-Apple crowd in here has turned into THE definition of a fanboi (read: irrational), only they don't realize or refuse to see how irrational some of the arguments used have become.

    2. Re:Rubbish by iNaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No offense to anyone (it's actually sarcasm whenever anyone begins a sentence with "no offense"), but I've seen a bunch of idiots on both the Apple side and the anti-Apple side. Just saying.

      --
      The Unicode standard is over 20 years old. Why does Slashdot not support it?
    3. Re:Rubbish by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      In fact, her enthusiasm for the iPhone was such that she said she was considering getting her first Mac, which couldn't have gone over too well at home; her husband works for Microsoft.

      That's friggin' hilarious ... I'm sure Jobs would pay money for that husband and wife duo on with the PC and Mac guys in a commercial. ;-)

      And just to forestall the argument that iPhone users are sheep, yes, she is a non-technical user, but far from stupid; she's an emergency room physician, and a damned good one too. It never fails to amuse me when smug, elitist techies describe users of Apple products as smug and elitist.

      Well, everyone likes to deny it when people say they like Apple products because they give such a nice experience, or that you can get more function from device X for less money. I know people who don't have any other technology gadgets, and they think their iPhones are the coolest things ever, and use 'em for practically everything. I've known people with graduate degrees in computer science who, at home, prefer to use a Mac because they don't want to muck about with it -- it just goes is the usual refrain.

      Heck, from what I've been reading about the iPad, I'm buying one this week. All of the things people describe as limitations make me think "now that is a device that just gets it". I don't want to multitask or make spreadsheets. I don't want to type much on it -- I want to sit in a comfy chair and hold it like a book doing completely different things completely differently, and not using a mouse and a keyboard. I'm not buying it as a device to work on, but as something to play with. Instead of surfing the web or whatever being chained to a desk, it unhooks you so completely it sounds awesome.

      It just seems to stripped down to the essentials of what that device wants to be, and it gets rid of the fiddly bits. Now, it could never replace my laptop that I use for work, but it looks like it can do so many other things. A wireless infotainment appliance for kicking around at home or doing some research on the web or what have you.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Rubbish by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      I am sorry, but Apple does receive a kickback from AT&T.

      One small link(there are lots of others)

      http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-9803657-37.html

      Even if your argument were factually correct, which it is not, exercising a modicum of common sense would explain that it is AT&T who gain from exclusivity, not Apple

      Err, if my post was factually correct(which it is), then Apple is gaining financially big time on every iPhone user.

      To suggest that Apple were the ones who demanded exclusivity is laughable, and that they did so out of greed, is simply irrational. Why the hell would they willingly restrict their own potential sales? You sound like just another anti-Apple jihadist, willing to distort facts in any way you can to demonstrate that Apple is "evil".

      Who suggested that Apple demanded exclusivity? All they demanded and demand is dollars. Why did they renew the agreement again? Because if they added Verizon to the supported network list, they would lose the money fleeced from every iPhone user. This just shows that all they care about is dollars and not customers who have to put up with shitty service.

      And you sound like a blind dumb fanboy who can't see past his nose.

      --
      This space for rent.
    5. Re:Rubbish by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      I don't want to multitask or make spreadsheets.

      Just because the many netbooks, tablets and e-readers, that will also do what you want whilst you sit in a comfy chair, support multitasking and spreadsheets, doesn't mean you have to use those features...

    6. Re:Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *best Bender impersonation*

      Now that's irony!

    7. Re:Rubbish by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      That link talks about the data-revenue agreement, which the GP talked about in the post you are quoting.

      Here, I'll quote it since you seem to have just skipped over it entirely:

      Jobs demanded a percentage of iPhone data revenues in return for exclusivity, to help offset lost opportunities with other carriers. This was a no-brainer for AT&T. If iPhone failed, no big deal, they sell a hell of a lot of different devices, and if only a tiny fraction of their customers used the iPhone, giving Apple a cut of iPhone data revenues would have a minimal impact on their bottom line.

      The link you posted talks about this very deal.

      Your original post may not be technically factually incorrect - while Apple do receive a percentage of revenue from the data plan, your opinions about Apple's motives are not facts. They may well be true (I suspect not, but then I didn't think Jacko would live as long as he did with nightly injections of propofol in a non-clinical setting), but you cannot claim it is factually correct. It's just not, unless you have someone on the board of directors on camera saying those words.

    8. Re:Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From economic theory, you might want to sell through only one channel so that you can maintain artificially high prices. It's one of apples favorite plays and it seems to work out for them.

    9. Re:Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When Apple, approached the carriers with the iPhone, AT&T were the only ones who did not point blank reject Apple's demand that the device not carry the network logo, as well as crippling the phone with their network's "features" and burying it in shovelware."

      Just to add to your point, Apple was also asking the carriers to perform a minor overhaul of their equipment to support "Visual Voicemail". Most of the carriers were not willing to spend the money to perform the necessary changes for such a new and unproven technology.

  51. Jobs is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree with Jobs. Frankly, even the previous generation of iPod/iPhone are retina displays for me. Seeing the pixels is exceedingly difficult. Some people just seem to need something to complain about.

  52. Re:66dpi? Yes, if it's compared to 3000dpi it's no by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

    66dpi? Yes, if it's compared to 3000dpi it's nowt. It's very little against 300dpi.

    326 compared to 300 is still significant. You're talking about a technical field in which improvements of 1% are hard-fought. You're also talking about a size in which there are no 300 ppi displays on the market.

    How old is the 900?

    Less than a year.

    The screen of the much older Nokia N770 had 225, with a much larger screen.

    How is a difference of 0.6 inches "much" larger when a density increase of 25% (or, for the screen you're referencing here, 45% trivial? Either they're both not trivial (which is the case) or neither is trivial (which would be wrong of you, but at least consistent to state). It's a showing of the clear bias of the ignorant when talking about display densities.

    The reason you don't get the microformat densities at the 3-5" range, or smartphone densities on netbooks, or netbook densities on most notebooks, or notebook densities on desktop monitors, or desktop monitors on big-screen LCD TVs is because it's not feasible to do so.

    This display is a major breakthrough in its size class--20-25% over its previous record-setting competitors. It's an even bigger leap forward in IPS technology, which has never been marketed anywhere near even 200 ppi. It is nothing short of revolutionary, and blind anti-Apple blather only discredits the fine work of the engineers and physicists who developed it, none of whom have anything to do with Apple.

    If it had been a Nokia phone as launch customer, you'd be drooling all over it. Meanwhile, the previous groundbreaking LCD, used in the N900 and the Droid and several other products, was lavished with plenty of well-deserved respect and praise from all circles. This display is in all regards an even bigger achievement and deserves the same.

  53. Hahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you guys seriously use the word "normals"? I knew everyone here had Asperger's, but this is ridiculous.

  54. Article is based on false assumptions by cjHopman · · Score: 1

    As pointed out in the article, the assumption that 20/20 is normal vision is absolutely wrong and is based on a self-reported sample of people 120 years ago. Mean visual acuity for ages 18-29 is better than 20/15.

    I had a whole bunch of good information to post here, but someone at the article's comments said it even better.

    So, shamelessly quoted from there:

    40. Daniel Says:
    June 10th, 2010 at 9:25 am

    It is clearly an exaggerated claim. 20/20 Snellen visual acuity is a reference standard used as a cut-off for the lowest level of normal vision -- not as an average visual acuity for the human population.

    Elliott, Yang and Whitaker (1995) published Visual Acuity Changes Throughout Adulthood in Normal Healthy Eyes. In this paper, they reported mean VA for 18-24 was 20/15 (6/4.5 metric). That's the MEAN visual acuity for young adults. So a significant number likely had a better VA than 20/15. 25-29 year old mean actually _improved_ to ~20/13 (6/4 metric). The mean VA increased (approaching 20/20 or 1.0) from that point until reaching a mean VA of 20/20 (6/6 metric) in the 75-year-old group!

    20/20 is the wrong VA to use for average human visual acuity. In addition, R.N.Clark at Clarkvision.com reports that people up to 50 can reliably tell the difference between 300 ppi and 600 ppi printouts.

  55. Jeez.... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

    ...slow day in the world of Apple or what???

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  56. Re:Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same goes for anyone who puts a dollar sign in "Microsoft". As if Apple is in it for the good of the universe, and not profit just like every other corporation. Maybe we should all start writing "$teve Job$" too.

    You don't know it yet but you just started a trend. :)

  57. 300 dpi is a magic number in publishing by gig · · Score: 2, Informative

    Most print artwork is done at 300 dpi. It's a magic number in publishing. iPhone 4 is the first screen device that can show print artwork. We've been looking forward to this for about 20 years. You have to be a fucking idiot to piss on it.

    1. Re:300 dpi is a magic number in publishing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually its not the first. A few years (2002?) ago I saw a 300dpi screen at IBM research center in upstate New York. They reckoned that this was about the same resolution (at 18") as the human eye. This screen used 4 video cards to drive it (getting around the bandwidth issue) and was about a 21" screen size.
      They priced it at ~$20k each and sold a bunch of them to stockbroker trading floors where the increase in information density was really needed (4 times the info in the same space). Don't beleive this ever became more widespread as the low yield in the manufacturing process kept the price too high for most of the world.

  58. Dude, it's called marketing... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... and it's hardly unique to Apple. Damn near every company in existence comes up with some feature, gives it a name that's stupid to one degree or another, and uses it to help sell the product. Sometimes this helps, sometimes not. Remember Intel's "Viiv"? That was marketing stupid turned up to 11.

  59. Comments by Winkkin · · Score: 1

    Let me begin by saying "I'm a PC". Wouldn't buy a MAC, MAC Book, or iMAC on a bet. 15 months ago, my contract was up with ATT and I started looking for a new phone. I wanted to move to a competitor because of more reliable service. Heck, the company I work for even dropped ATT and moved to a competitor because of dropouts and deadspots. The other requirement I had was that I wanted a phone with a better internet browser than the scrap pile that ran on my RAZOR. But when I looked at the available phones, none had an interface that worked as well as the iPhone's. There wasn't even one remotely close. So I ponied up my $199, swallowed my reluctance to buy an Apple product, and bought an iPhone. Of course, that means I'm still stuck with lousy service, but I now have features like pinch and expand (priceless for an older person with somwhat aging sight). My employer bought HTCs for all of their supervisors and managers, thats several hundred people. They hate the interface (its not intuitive at all) and the need to use the stylus. Several have even turned in their HTC and gone out and purchased iPhones on their own. Well its 9 months from contract time again, and I've looked at all the smart phones on the market. The iPhone 4 is going to be my choice. There's 3 parts to the smart phone puzzle. Features, ease of use, and quality of phone service. The first two are the reasons most people choose a particular smartphone. I'm thinking that 4 years from now when I'm ready to replace my desktop PC (haven't bought a laptop because most of the things that I want to do on a computer when I'm away from home I can now do on my phone), I'll probably buy the iPhone6 because it'll have matured into the palmtop that does it all.

  60. Exclusiively in europe too by DrYak · · Score: 1

    in the USA, maybe. The problem is that they tried pulling the same stuff in europe too.

    Traditonnally, in several countries here it works differently :
    Phones are not subsidized and sold by network carriers. Phone are sold normally in normal electronic shops. the only thing is only, if you sign for or extend a plan with a carrier in the same shop, you get a rebate to buy which ever phone of you liking, and you're free to do whatever you want with said phone: you can use it with the contract you extended, or you can give it as a present to your S.O. and use the sim with your older phone.
    Carriers don't directly subsidize phones, carrier can't load craptons of maketware - as the phone never goes through their hands, users are free to mix'n'match phone and services as they like.

    The logical strategy would be to make deal with major retailer chains to get the phone to as many stores as possible, the network will take care of the subsidizing by the rebate system. And that's indeed how lots of phone makers do it (mostly european makers).

    That's not what Apple (or other USAsian maker) do. They still try to get special exclusivity deal with branded retails of specific operator (nothing prevents operator to have their own retails). Thus the iPhone and alii are only available through some specific carrier because it's the only shop in town selling it. Apple gets money out of data deals, operators get users to switch to their networks to get a phone which has already proven to sell like got cake in the USA during the previous months.

    So maybe in the USA they where forced to make exclusive deals with network carriers. But they did the same in Switzerland, where that's absolutely not the norm.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  61. Eyesight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Normal 20/20 is used as a median eyesight. The difference between farsighted and nearsighted is balanced at this value.