Getting Paid Fairly When Job Responsibilities Spiral?

greymond writes "I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter. With budget cuts and layoffs I ended up also taking over the website facilitation for three of the company's websites (they let go of the current webmaster). During this time the company has been developing a new website and I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date. Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup. While it's been years since I worked this much with Linux I'm picking it up and moving things along. Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this? Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT."

Comments

The main issue

[Anonymous Coward]

In this economy, You are pretty replaceble, according to what you say your skills are. So you are behind the eightball.

Re:The main issue

[tsm_sf]

He's basically stated that his company isn't willing to pay the going rate for the work he does. They could certainly fill his position, and they might get lucky with some bright kid fresh out of school, but if his boss is competent he'll know that anyone willing to take a cut in pay will also move on at the earliest opportunity. He's not going to get fired for asking for a raise unless there are large problems with the company or the employee.

He could probably go for a minor raise, but the opportunity is ripe for picking up a few quality of life perks. Something that costs the company nothing, like a new job title, would be perfect. Maybe try to weasel some time to work from home or flex hours, or maybe just a new chair.

Being able to point to a spreadsheet showing the increase in workload would be pretty handy.

Re:The main issue

[Anonymous Coward]

The going rate for what he does is what the company can get away paying someone to do the job. Look at the situation through the lens of game theory. You have one actor, the company, whose best interest is to keep their costs low and profits high -- one way of doing that is to lower overall personnel costs by having one person take over the responsibilities of three or four. On the other side you have the employee, who has described their case above. Currently the company is able to have a large win because the employee is 'cooperating' while the company is playing the role of a defector.

Re:The main issue

[XopherMV]

In this economy, You are pretty replaceble, according to what you say your skills are. So you are behind the eightball.

That may have been true at the beginning of the year, but that's not the case any longer. Of the nine developers in my department, four have found new jobs within the past month. Another has threatened to leave and accepted a counter-offer to stay with the company. People are sick of the BS they received from management over the past year and are ready, willing, and able to jump ship now. Expect a lot of churn within companies over the next several months until this all settles down.

Re:The main issue

[CAIMLAS]

Replaceable, in what way?

Sure, someone could fill his shoes. That's a possibility, but it's slim: there is usually a lot more to an IT job (whether it's developer or sysadmin) than just what the job requirements demonstrate.

A professional position of any complexity has a non-trivial amount of daily tasks, procedures, and general business process which need to be understood before a person can fully and successfully "fill" the position. Sure, you might be a "Linux Administrator" or a "LAMP developer" but chances are the environment you're coming into is not identical to the one you're coming from: the administrator(s) and developer(s) did things differently. There will be varying degrees of documentation, thoroughness, stupidity, and so on.

All that takes time to acclimate to and adjust for: it takes a lot longer if you're an idiot. Many environments can 'skate by' with an idiot at the helm for some time, but eventually it will catch up. Hiring someone who isn't an idiot will (typically) cost quite a bit of money (even in this economy).

Re:The main issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Your argument seems to be that the employee is getting paid appropriately because that's what the company is paying him and he hasn't left yet. It's not a very useful analysis of the situation.

Re:The main issue

[forkazoo]

He could probably go for a minor raise, but the opportunity is ripe for picking up a few quality of life perks. Something that costs the company nothing, like a new job title, would be perfect. Maybe try to weasel some time to work from home or flex hours, or maybe just a new chair.

When I was last in the corporate world, we strictly acquired perks like nicer chairs and our own white boards via commando-style raids. We would actually have strategic planning meetings for the raids. The 8 pm Network Operations shift change was our standard time, and the 5th floor our standard target.

That said, the OP will never get what he's worth at his current job. He deserves it. A great boss would give it to him, but it'll probably never happen. He's in the corporate equivalent of the "friend zone." His best hope for exploiting the situation is to get as much experience as possible, and the most inflated title possible, and try and use that as leverage when moving on to the next job.

I was hired as a data entry grunt for my first job as a programmer. I got something like a token 50 cent an hour raise for the move because management valued me, and appreciated the fact that it turned out I was more skilled than they initially expected when I was hired for the grunt job. But, there was no way they were going to double my salary after I had already demonstrated I was willing to do higher level work for the entry level pay.

So, in conclusion, it is a tactical error to do all the work you can without getting any of the money upfront; and the fifth floor will never muster adequate defenses to be able to repel (or even track) an elite squad of NOC monkeys.

Re:The main issue

[tsm_sf]

In most of the companies I know, you'd be written up or fired within 8 hours of pulling such a stunt.

Weird. I could see a manager telling kids to settle down and put the shit back. I could also see the manager telling the boss that kids need to blow off steam when they work their asses off. Writing someone up or firing them seems more like an ego move than business sense, but then it seems like a lot of people want to be businessmen more than they want to do business.

Re:The main issue

[ImOnlySleeping]

The company doesn't need to pay the going rate because this guy is doing it for less.

Re:The main issue

[Kevin108]

From on of my favorite Dilbert strips:

An employee is being interviewed by the manager. He asks, "How do you reward your best performing employees?"

The manager replies, "We increase their workload until their performance becomes average."

Re:The main issue

[hal2814]

"Seriously, the only way workers have been paid what they're worth under capitalism is when they organize."

When I feel I'm being asked to work too much, not getting paid what I should, or just generally feel I'm being under-appreciated at work, I go right home and organize. I put together my resume and my contacts and start setting up a space on my laptop to track everywhere I've submitted resumes and which particular resume and cover letter I submitted. I also put notes on who I've talked to and the status of those talks. In about 3-4 months, I generally get exactly what I want. Once it took up to 6 months. And I'm not a terrible job hopper. In 10 years, I have worked for 4 companies(4 years, 1 year, 4 years, and 1 for my current employer). So you're absolutely right. There does come a time when a worker must organize and find a place where he (or she) can be appreciated for his (or her) talents. Oh, you mean unions? I guess you can if you want, but I get better results on my own.

Re:The main issue

[commodore64_love]

I believe his argument is more like what happened to me:

- You open your mouth and ask about getting paid for the overtime you're working (i.e. getting paid for the new tasks they keep piling on you)
- They don't want to pay you, so they find an excuse to get rid of you (watching CNN while eating your lunch)
- You get replaced by another guy who doesn't mind working 50 hours and only paid 40.
- And then you end-up sitting at home.

Just be happy you have a job. There are various ways you can "compensate" yourself for the increased workload, without pissing off the boss(es) by asking for a raise. Like taking full advantage of the free printers to run-off resumes and look for a new job.

Re:The main issue

[Grishnakh]

Yep, this has worked pretty well for me too.

However, this strategy only works when there's many different employers to choose from. It's just like free-market theory: in a free market, buyers (or in this case, employers and employees) can pick and choose who they want to buy from out of a large field of sellers, and in theory, the crappy sellers (with excessive prices, poor quality, poor service, etc.) eventually go out of business. However, there are cases where the market is distorted: these are called "monopolies" (and cartels, oligopolies, etc.). That's when allowing the free market to work doesn't work, because there is no free market, there's only one seller of a partcular product/service, so government regulation becomes necessary.

This has also been the case for some employers, where there was only one large employer in a town or city. In that case, simply switching jobs isn't an option for workers, because there's nowhere else to go.

Luckily, this isn't the case much any more, now that "company towns" (where they even paid workers in "scrip" instead of money) are extinct, and extremely large city-dominating manufacturers are mostly gone.

This is why I think one big and important role for government is to "bust up" large companies, and make it very difficult for companies to become too large, and if they do, regulate them heavily. Large corporations are the bane of free markets. It's not a "free market" if there's only one place to buy something from (especially if it's something necessary, like power, water, or communications), or if there's only 2 or 3 places and they're all colluding. In an ideal free market, there should be a large number of small companies, and that's it. This makes it much easier for buyers to find the best deal, and for employees likewise to find the best deal, and keeps competition high between the sellers/employers.

Re:The main issue

[jwhitener]

You're living in an era that has already benefited from past labor union work. I assume you enjoy weekends and 8 hour days right? Thank unions.

A business constantly pushes for more profit, and if left uncheck, say goodbye to weekends, 8 hour days, and good wages. Unions are the only source pushing back.

Do unions sometimes make unreasonable requests and push back too hard? Of course. But without their existence, we'd be back to 10-12-14 hour days, no weekends, and slave wages.

Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[AnAdventurer]

I was in the same spot, hired as a web content person, next thing I knew I was IT manager for the corporation doing PC support, hands-on sever, PBX, twisted pair, web development and CSM rec, integration and more. I was working 60-80 a week and after 6 months I got a "good job" and no raise, another 2 months and I had to ask for a raise. I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later. They has to hired 2 people to replace me.

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later.

FYI, being fired had nothing to do with your perceived level of enjoyment. They didn't like you and were looking to get rid of you all along.

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[williamhb]

I was in the same spot, hired as a web content person, next thing I knew I was IT manager for the corporation doing PC support, hands-on sever, PBX, twisted pair, web development and CSM rec, integration and more. I was working 60-80 a week and after 6 months I got a "good job" and no raise, another 2 months and I had to ask for a raise. I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later. They has to hired 2 people to replace me.

So this is part of the issue: under those circumstances what you ask for is not a "raise" but an appointment to the position you are doing (which co-incidentally happens to come with a jump in salary). If they see it as "Joe Bloggs wants more money" they'll tend to say no. HR and management are well-practiced in trying to minimise salary creep across their organisations. If they see it as "Joe Bloggs is asking to step up to the next stage of his career, he's clearly been gaining the experience necessary, and if we say no he's likely to take that step up elsewhere" they are more likely to say yes. HR and management are also well-versed in how they are *supposed* to support career-development (even though it takes prodding to get them to do it), and the fact they have given you extra responsibilities suggests you are an employee they don't want to lose. Of course, you also have to be 'not bluffing' -- if they don't move on the appointment, don't be grumpy but just go elsewhere using the experience and skills they have given you. It's a small world, and you may well end up working for them again in a more senior role later.

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[IntlHarvester]

The important thing to understand is that promotions aren't about the past, you owe me, I deserve it, etc etc. They are about the future and what potential at the company you have. I've found that as long as you are positioning the conversation that way, there is almost no harm in asking for more money.

And yeah, grow a pair. You will never get paid any more than what you ask for.

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[Surt]

This is pretty easy to handle:
Find out what the fair salary is for your job, call that X. Tell your boss that you thought about what he said, and after reviewing salary information, it seems like X + 10% would be fair.

A lot of people are telling you to man up, but not how to do it. You are afraid to hurt your boss. Be more afraid to hurt your (possibly future) children by depriving them of a great college education, or the backing of their first business venture, etc, because you didn't earn a fair wage. Put the lives of people you love before the life of your boss, who is clearly prepared to do the right thing anyway.

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[primerib]

When you ask for a raise or a promotion, you are upping the ante and entering into a haggling situation. You are implicitly saying "Scrutinize me and you'll find that my skills and contributions to the company far exceed my level of compensation, to the point that there's a real chance of another company offering me superior compensation". Remember, the vast majority of companies won't give a raise because it's the fair thing to do, they give a raise because it's a better value to secure that employee's skills in the workplace than to risk having them hired up by another company. That said, the best advice I've been given is to never ask for a raise unless you have a job offer from another company in hand.

Beyond that, all the companies I've worked at as an adult have had an unwritten policy of saying "No, why?" to anyone's first raise request. This makes sense because for a good portion of people requesting raises you will be calling their bluff; they will either back down and take the same pay they had, or show through their actions that they weren't worth a raise at all. A select few will come back with a bargaining chip and an ultimatum ("This is what the market says about my value, and these will be the consequences of you not giving me a raise"), and ask for a second raise... In my experience, these are the people who actually have a real chance of getting a raise. Additionally, some of the companies I worked at had policies in place that required both HR and the employee's direct management to approve a raise, so there was no way they could say 'Yes' the first time someone asked.

As it stands, you asked your company to intensely scrutinize your contributions to the workplace and then immediately showed them that your job at their company isn't important to you.
If I were your manager, I probably would've fired you too. My logic would have been: "Hmm, so he asked for a raise because he must have received a job offer, and after the initial meeting he's no longer doing his work... That would indicate that he has accepted a position at another company and was using the raise question here as leverage for negotiations at his new job. He has no intention of staying, and his continued presence in the workplace is a risk to the company".

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[Billly Gates]

Keep in mind they could have liked him but could not afford to have him quit if he *is* I.T. at the company. Employers sometimes fire based on someone asking for a raise because its a sign he or she might quit or the raise is too much and needs to be scaled back. Some I.T. departments fire employees who look for work elsewhere or interview because its a security threat with those who have confidential data and a history of an ex-worker abusing it. I am sure the lawyers advise to do this and I have read stories about this on slashdot and comments supporting this.

Not all employers are like this but many are in this economy. Never assume anything when a poor sap losses his or her job. Half the time it is politics or some dumb reasons described above and half due to incompetence. If you're a teacher like your sig says you understand then. How many teachers in non-union or non tenured are let go?

Re:Dear Playboy, it happened to me

[Klinky]

Maybe employers should be up front with people about their responsibilities and pay. Doing a Bait & Switch with job responsibilities and then ignoring these actions is just a way for the company to leech the most out of you. Frankly I think it'd be important to remind your manager of your job title before you start doing stuff outside of your job description. Companies will take, take, take & give as little as they possibly can in return.

Welcome to the world...

[dugjohnson]

You are the owner of a company called you.  You are experiencing feature creep from your main and only client, your employer.  Assuming you are still responsible for what you were originally hired for, you need to point out that you are now being asked to do a lot more than you originally signed on to do, and that you need to reach a new understanding that will work for both of you.

Be professional.  Be firm.  You might want to read some back blogs by Bob Lewis, as he covers this kind of stuff all the time.

A couple of examples
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/when-raises-dry-negotiate-hard-get-what-you-deserve-404
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/be-your-own-boss-even-if-you-have-boss-037

Re:Welcome to the world...

[Nikker]

Maybe he talks in monotone?

Re:Welcome to the world...

[Kenoli]

Why do you post in monotype?

He must do it to make sure his comment is simply skipped over.

I naturally tend to ignore anything with unusual formatting. It's like they're shouting "Look at me! Look at me!". No, shut up.

Re:Welcome to the world...

[PhunkySchtuff]

Don't you mean:

Because it's like a console. To UNIX and *NIX people, this is very cool. I suppo
rt his posting in monotype, and encourage him to continue doing so. Long live th
e console!

Re:Welcome to the world...

[MillionthMonkey]

Monotype is a corporate standard across the entire company called you.

Re:Welcome to the world...

[Aphex Junkie]

He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had a chance to interrupt
it was really quite hypnotic

Wait until 1 month to launch

[Opportunist]

Then tell them "More money or I go. Yes, I know that I'm basically what the whole thing hangs on. I'm your project manager, your web monkey, your server manager, your everything, basically. So, let's discuss my payment, title and other job perks".

But phrase it nicely. Managers don't like to have a dagger at their throat. Even if they basically handed it to you.

You have one option...

[masdog]

Dust off your resume and start updating it. You probably won't get more money or a new title unless you threaten to leave. At that point, they'll look to replace you anyway, so you might as well find a new job.

Re:Amnesia an option?

[GaryOlson]

Exactly.
Work your 40 hours, leave. Prioritize your work; don't do everything they deem "required". If you do not treat yourself like a human being, the company won't either. If the company does not see the value of your contributions now, they never will. Find a different company.

Standard fare, complex situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Company hires person in low-to-moderately paid job. Responsibilities and workload increase. Salary does not rise to certified-external-hire level. Details to follow.
Basically, this is what happens regularly.

Now, where to go depends on how you assess your position.

Firstly, does the company tend to give people promotions and raises informally, kind of like a surprise, or is it a structured process? Both can happen, but companies mostly only prefer one.
In the former case, there's a 1/3 chance it's coming and they want to see how you handle things - in this case you could drop some very small hints. It's a 1/3 chance they have forgotten about it - in this case you could drop some very small hints, and you might get it. It's a 1/3 chance they simply don't care.
If it's a structured process, you are obviously not getting it without banging the table.

Because your odds are slim, let's consider banging the table. If you do this, you should be very aware that it COULD lead to you not working there any more. In the eyes of the bosses that be, you used to do one job (marketing and writing) and you are doing less of that and more of another, which does not qualify in itself for a raise. So consider - how employable are you? How easily could you get a job if you needed one? If the answer is "pretty good" and "pretty sure", then that's great. I should point out though that online content producers are usually 15 a dozen (in my view) and what you can hire interns for cheap as chips - so if you MUST move, could you find another job doing that at your current salary? To be honest, 'writing articles for a webpage and setting up facebook and twitter' sounds a bit weak for a full-time well-paid job if it's a small company.

You could also ask for an agreement that you will do ONLY this from IT and then no more IT tasks. But in that case you also risk not working there any more - because there might be a reason you have been asked to do more IT instead of articles. If they tell you "well, we didn't like your articles to be honest, but we feel you can add value doing IT", would that crush you completely? Would you be able to face them again?

Lastly, you could ask for a title upgrade only. This is the safest bet. What you decide for the title would A) let you find a better job elsewhere than you otherwise could, B) let you influence somewhat the path (e.g. the title 'Head of IT developments' may land you interviews for other jobs than 'Online Production Manager' C) your title itself should act subtly to influence whether you get more or less marketing/IT tasks going forward.

So the answer is, it very much depends on the details that only you know.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[thegarbz]

As an accountant, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will slowly run your company into the ground.

The problems here is there's not enough money to go around, and rather than give someone a payrise that would probably see their morale improve and thus often their performance as a knock-on effect you're advocating saving $10k by spending a completely disproportionate amount on advertisement and interviews. Beyond that after the very expensive exercise of actually hiring someone you end up with some idiot who is not only equally dissatisfied with their job and may soon after just run through and ask for the same payrise, but also has no frigging clue about how the company runs and needs to be retrained from the ground up, not to mention that there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that often promote efficiencies that you're advocating just pissing against the wall.

You sir are what is wrong with management today. The flat out attitude that an employee's entire worth is valued by the number they get paid. I hope one day when you fire 500 people so that your can afford a new personal jet each employee comes up and takes turn punching you in your fat face.

Ask for it.

[nordaim]

I've been in this situation more than once. Each time it happened I worked with my direct manager to figure out the best solution whether that was a higher salary, better benefits (vacation, flex hours, compressed work week), or other, more ephemeral, perks like a new job title. Of the 6 times I was in this situation, 3 of which were at one company, I only walked once.

However, in order to be able to walk that meant I always had an escape plan. Even when I was elated about a job and would go home floating on cloud 9 there were always options in the back of my mind of where I would go. I continued to job hunt: sending out my resume, talking to HR at another company, or networking with friends in the industry at least once a week. Plus, even when my budget was tight, by force of will alone I kept an emergency fund that would let me float for a while without racking up my credit cards.

Never let yourself get in a place where a company, or anyone for that matter, can take advantage of you without recourse.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

As your employee, I know that your ass is on the line to maintain productivity with the budget you have. Good luck hiring those 100 other applicants who will not handle half as much workload that you shifted on me without asking twice as much as I'm asking for a raise.

Managers often think that hard-working employees can be replaced easily. Those are the managers who are usually first canned during departmental restructuring because of their "turn-over" rate. A good manager knows how to be effective at balancing his employees happiness with the company's productivity.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Cheerio Boy]

As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street. 1 month to launch? Sure, no problem, we'll give you a 10k per year raise. And then we'll show you the exit a week or two after launch. You think you're irreplaceable? I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.

And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN.

Re:Amnesia an option?

[bbernard]

I'd advise having an exit strategy in the works. Start interviewing because there is no better time to negotiate a new job than when you currently have one. You don't want to work for a company that is willing to "knowingly" take advantage of you. If you're comfortable with your management chain, bring this issue up to them.

Under no circumstances "threaten" to leave, or tell them that you've got a new job and want them to match salaries, etc. Get yourself an offer you like, and then start negotiating with your current employer. If you tell them you're looking at leaving or that you've got a new job offer, their motivation will only be to placate you until they can replace you. If you "work with them" on aligning your salary with your tasks you've got a better job at keeping a long-term relationship with them.

Otherwise, find a better job opportunity and take it.

Re:Give up.

[antifoidulus]

No, what his boss meant was that after the company gives said boss a huge bonus for "cost savings"(read working his people into the ground while essentially adding no value of his own), there is no budget left. If the OP threatens to leave then all of a sudden from somewhere(read boss's undeserved bonus) money will materialize.

Work, like much of life, is really a game of chicken. Thats why always advisable to have a large amount of savings, and if possible, a spouse with a good job. That way, when the boss dumps work on you without giving you a pay raise you can balk at his (almost certainly idle) threat to fire you.

It's different Now for Corporations & Individu

[gink1]

It seems that ever since this "Great Recession / Depression" started that a lot of things have changed.
Our Fearless Leader has been trying to convince us it's all over now, but the EU would no doubt disagree!

The outlook for Corporations has improved though and some are hiring key people they can find now for some slots (but pay is not too good).
For most though, they have learned they can make a lot of money without their former staffing.

So individuals are doing more, often much much more for the same or less money. Grab a better position if you can, but it might be tough to get the next one. DO NOT do what a friend did and quit before securing the next position. Several of my Professional friends have been out for about 2 years now. I can't understand how they are surviving!

I was quite fortunate to find an Engineering position right at the start of the Recession and have held it.
It's a great position - great work, learning many skills and much programming.
After putting in the required long hours, I actually received commendations for my efforts.

I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
It was eye opening and after reflection, I consider myself quite lucky.

The #1 Goal of ALL Corporations is to maximize profits. Why wouldn't they take full advantage of the current employment situation?

Do way you can in 40 hrs

[hellfire]

Take a few hours to basically put together a report of how long all this is going to take and over estimate. Overestimating is important here. When you explain this to your boss, don't say I can't do blah, say this is what I can do. They may ask for more, say that's impossible. When they push, and they will, give them a little, just enough to cut into your overestimate then hope they take it. If they push and try to make you do 60-80 hours, you are fucked. Dust up your resume. But if they accept your logic and push the schedule or hire someone then logic wins.

Your company is fucked right now. They somehow got into a situation where they need to meet a goal without proper resources. So they are trying to squeeze you for all they can and you let them. The above is what you should have done originally. Now that they saddled you with this they are glig to blame failures on you. You always need to know what you can and can't do. They have no money to fulfill your requests but if you push back politely you might find something. However I doubt this. If they were good managers they wouldn't be in this situation.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[schon]

You think you're irreplaceable?

I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.

And every single one of them wants triple what you're currently paying.

Because if they were more qualified and willing to work for the same amount, you'd be replacing your current employee.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[HangingChad]

As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street.

And as a consultant who has seen many instances of the problem dictating the solution, your short-sightedness is going to bring you system failures, data loss, lower productivity and higher down stream costs.

Imagine if you walked in to accounting and announced that they were also going to need to handle HR. I'm sure there would be a lot of surprised looks. But when it comes to IT managers think nothing of walking in telling them they're also going to be taking care of the phone system or the accounting system or any number other departmental systems and then expecting them to just add that to what they already do.

I agree with the parent, you can't let other people set you up for failure. That's just as bad for your career. Got a call today for a job where the camel carrying too many straws quit. As they listed off all the required duties, I cut them off before they got to the end. It was a loser contract. They wanted 80 hours of work while paying for 40, the contracting process was a mess, then they tried to low ball the rate. Sometimes it's better to say no thanks.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I think one of the things missing is, based upon the summary, it sounds like the company is taking the actions I've seen far too often of a company that is about to go under. It certainly isn't be managed very well, but even if it was, these sound like desperate actions, and regardless of what is done, I doubt the poster is going to have a place to go to work within 6 months. I could be wrong, of course, but I've had some experience in this area unfortunately.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[__aasqbs9791]

Unless they happen to be related to the owners.*

*Sorry, personal pet peeve of mine.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

You think you're irreplaceable?

I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say either this is an exaggeration by 50-100x, or you really have no way to tell who's qualified for the position. No, he isn't irreplaceable. However, HR managers who believe that good employees (as opposed to line workers) are, in fact, replaceable, are going to send their business into the gutter. Because, frankly, the existence of replacements doesn't mean that YOU will find one.

Because I get the feeling you aren't working for a company everyone wants to work at--not Google or some amazing game studio or anything else really fun. So they won't be coming to you. That means that pretty much every resume you'll get is just someone looking for "a job, any job." Those applicants are not going to be the five-star workers. Probably not even three-star. However, what you're asking for is someone who's at least 3-4 stars, like the submitter claims to be--hard working, competent, learns fast, trying to be professional, actually getting things done, has proven himself, and who has clearly become the go-to guy for these sorts of things.

You don't want a prima donna. Got it. And GP's grandstanding is pretty assholeish. However, if it was you who was in charge of his living or dying, he would be justified in his assholishness (if not in his method), because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't pay him what he was worth. And guess what? Between the two of you, you'll probably be the one who's wrong. Now, maybe the GP is really just trolling businesses and doesn't know Jack Schitt. On the other hand, what he suggested could easily come naturally--because in the big push before a launch, people can get burned out and actually need that kind of incentive to stay instead of being reamed up the ass. And all you just did was screw him out of both fair pay for his current work, and future employment. Thanks.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[beakerMeep]

I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player. These are people you have to continue to work with and they will never trust you again.

If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story.

It's all about how you say it, are you in it for the long haul? Do they know that? Are you polite, willing to be flexible? Are you bringing the problem to THEIR attention with some suggested solutions and letting them decide?

Some situations will never be resolvable as one side or the other just doesn't care or wont budge. But most can be solved quite amicably to both sides with a little forethought and common courtesy.

Also, one thing to remember is that if you are going to convince someone you are over-booked, you need to tell them that each time they add an assignment to your plate, else they will continue to push you to your limits (which is not always a bad thing).

Get a new job

[spiffmastercow]

The only way I've ever managed to get a proportional raise was to get a new job. Companies don't like to give out raises, and prefer to hire someone for more rather than promote from within. It's ass-backwards, but that's the way the world works.

Nervous breakdown

[dsoltesz]

This is a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.

Listen to the folks telling you to slow down and prioritize. Have a friendly talk with your boss about a promotion to go with the new responsibilities. Ask for help (even if you do not need it) from your boss prioritizing your responsibilities so you can get the most important things done in your 40 hours... this discussion will accomplish several things: your boss will understand exactly what and how much you have on your plate, you make it clear working more than 40 hours long-term is not desirable, hopefully some of your shit tasks get delegated elsewhere, and finally, you get some important satisfaction knowing you are making an effort to get control of the situation. Frankly, it sounds like you are on a sinking ship. If so, make a plan to get off the boat voluntarily.

If the situation does not improve, this is headed a very ugly direction. Stress can destroy your health, and burnout can last for years (perhaps a lifetime). I don't have words to describe how painful and destructive stress and burnout really are. Just take my word for it: Don't go there.

This guy is not flamebait

[Weaselmancer]

He's spot on. He could have phrased it more delicately, but honestly you could use a little shaking up.

That's what your job has evolved into, and that is the pay. Arm twisting will accomplish nothing for you except a quick trip to the street. They're broke. You've already said so. That's why they're laying off all the people you've replaced and have no budget for staff.

You try to go oil drilling with these guys and you won't get a thing except a fresh new bullseye on your back.

My advice? Talk them into a title change only. Emphasize you're not digging for a raise, but you'd like something to reflect your new duties. Get your new impressive title, then bust ass for the next 3 months to get settled in with your new title. Then get your ass to careerbuilder and craigslist and use your new fancy title to negotiate a better job. These guys are garden variety passive aggressives PHBs that will continue to dump on you until you break. Ditch them.

what is said and what is true

[Tumbleweed]

I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.

This is a pretty common thing for managers to do. Give you the minimum they think you'll accept, and say they went to the mat "for you". Right. It *might* be true, but I seriously doubt it.

That happens all the time.

[khasim]

Understand it and plan for it.

Keep your resume up-to-date and USE it. Shop yourself around at least every year to see what you're really worth and what job skills you should be working on.

The good thing about situations like that is that they look GREAT on your resume. Just work on the narrative and explain how you took on more responsibilities as the needs of your employer changed.

Re:That happens all the time.

[Registered Coward v2]

Understand it and plan for it.

Keep your resume up-to-date and USE it. Shop yourself around at least every year to see what you're really worth and what job skills you should be working on.

The good thing about situations like that is that they look GREAT on your resume. Just work on the narrative and explain how you took on more responsibilities as the needs of your employer changed.

Exactly. This is why a title upgrade, even if you can't get a raise, is very valuable. Your resume will show advancement; and you can make a very compelling story around how you kept doing more and now were looking for the next opportunity (and more money). In this economy, guerilla tactics are even more useful - bide your time, build up your strengths, and attack when the odds are in your favor. Once the market picks up, you can decide what move to make; until then keep a paycheck and build your resume. Look for opportunities to add skills in areas where you want to work; look at them as paid training. Your present employer will probably never pay you what the going rate is, so enjoy the ride and develop the skills and titles to make the jump when you can.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Xacid]

I think you hit on a key thing with "If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story".

Sometimes a payraise simply isn't the solution. I'd approach it in the manner of like "listen, we've got to do SOMETHING. Pay me so I can justify working 60-80 hours a week or relieve me of some of these duties with a new employee or shift some of it to an existing employee. The manager's job is to support you and to make sure the job gets done. If you approach it in terms of "I have a problem, can you help me fix this?" then you're off on the right foot.

But also realize- sometimes there are inflexible employers who either poorly budgeted or simply don't have enough foresight to realize the value of their people. However, I as a small business owner know absolutely that my people are my number 1 asset. If I can't afford to pay someone more, but I know they're worth it then I'll at least explain why (typically a lack of steady work) and offer for them to proactive with helping us find new work. In essence it becomes - "help me help you". But then again - in a larger corporate environment you'd have more to worry about if they're having trouble finding steady work which raises a whole different slew of issues.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is is slashdot and everyone who can half-ass a LAMP setup and update the WordPress thinks they are a irreplaceable "five star" technical superstud. But the reality is most of you people are barely competent despite your high opinions of yourself.

You can easily get hundreds of replies to craigslist post for this type of work, the biggest difficulty is picking the peanuts out of all the shit.

And come on, the OP gets paid for posting on facebook. It's an entry-level job at best.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Nadaka]

Been There. Done That. You are right.

It is not time to ask for a raise and a title. It is time to find someone else to work for. Go ahead and ask for the title without the raise, so that you can put it on your resume.

Start interviewing

[OrangeTide]

I have three friends who have successfully gone the route of starting with interviews and letting the rumors start. If you can secure an offer from another company for significantly more you can either jump ship or let your current place match the offer. One friend of mine got a pretty significant raise this way, after having to suffer with a pretty significant pay cut last year he's above his original salary then bump all of his coworkers up too. He wondered the point of the salary cuts, when the company gave in so quickly to pressure.

The only trick to it, is you have to be serious about taking the other offer. You must be in the mind set that you will walk away when deal doesn't meet your requirements, and it is important to think about what those requirements really are before you negotiate.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[kklein]

This is exactly how you handle this kind of thing.

The last time it happened to me (I was leading a small team who was asked to do more and more--and then kept getting flak for things falling through the cracks), I had my folks document--conservatively--how much time was being spent on tasks. It was a simple case of the management just plain not knowing how many intermediary steps there were between "do this" and "it's done."

I brought this material to a private meeting with my boss, explained our situation earnestly, and provided documentation of what we were doing. I made it very clear that we actually agreed that much of this stuff needed to get done, but that there physically wasn't enough man power or time to do it. I told him that some of my best people were looking to leave, and explained how much we--the company--would suffer if we let that happen. I then just basically said "Something's got to give. We need to take one of these projects and re-assign it or we need to be pulled off something, or we need more hands." I didn't bring money up at all, because money doesn't even mean anything when you physically cannot complete the tasks in front of you.

Anyway, it went well. He very honestly didn't know what was going on, and appreciated that I approached it from a "we have a problem, and here are some ideas on fixing it" standpoint, not a "this is bullshit and you fucking suck" standpoint (although that was the standpoint we often had amongst ourselves.).

If that doesn't work, if the response is "Well, buddy, I'm sorry, but that's life in the big city with the big boys in the big company, and this stuff has to get done" then remember that "this stuff" is not "your stuff." You're an employee. The owners need this stuff done; you need money. That's all. You have no relationship with "this stuff."

I agree that you should never threaten your employer. These are people, and even when they're incompetent, they're just normal folks. You pull a dick move and they aren't going to like it. You're shooting yourself in the foot. You might get the raise, but it also might be the last one you ever get. Being liked/respected by your organizational superiors makes things a lot easier in life. Don't be a dick. Be a team player.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Xeno man]

What about the other way? Your boss has hired you to build a shed but by the time the project is done your building a mansion and they haven't giving you any more resources to do so. That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free.

The best way is to do some research on who is hiring some one to do what your doing and what they are offering or how many people they need to hire to do what your doing. 3 guys at 40k a year to replace you sure makes your 10% increase request look very reasonable.

what not to do

[John_Sauter]

I hope my story will serve as a cautionary tale. In 1995 I was hired as the junior person in a two-person IT department. My boss immediately began training me so I could cover for her during vacations and illnesses, and of course she covered for me.

In 2005 she left abruptly. Because her departure was unexpected I naturally began to do her job in addition to my own, just as I did when she took vacation. I also asked for a temporary salary bump to compensate me for the added responsibility, until either (a) I got a promotion to the senior position and someone was hired into the junion position, or (b) someone was hired to replace her. Because of our longevity we were both at the top of our grade in salary, but the bottom of her grade was above the top of mine, so a bump to the bottom of her grade would have meant an increase for me.

After six months of being rebuffed I concluded that they were happy with the status quo: they were getting what had historically been a two-person job at the price of one junior salary. I felt put upon, because I was no longer able to take vacation.

Here is where I made my mistake: I became obstinate, and declared that I would no longer do the jobs that had historically been the responsibility of the senior person. Within a week I was unemployed.

Be smarter than I was. There is some good advice in this thread, which I wish had been available to me.

Yep

[Sycraft-fu]

I've seen some funny situations like this. Friend of mine was in a similar thing of they kept heaping on more work and refusing to raise his pay. They didn't lay him off, they just wouldn't pay him any more so he left. About 2 weeks later they were calling him, desperate. The new guy couldn't figure something out, the site was down, nothing was working, they were so screwed would he please, PLEASE come in and fix it? He literally laughed and said ok sure, for a couple grand up front. They said no, he hung up. They called him a few more times begging before finally, angrily, agreeing to pay a hefty consulting fee. He went in and fixed their problem and they tried to hand him a bunch more work and he said "Nope, see ya!"

They went out of business around a year later, due to I'm sure many other bad decisions.

It is silly to think employees will just take whatever you tell them to and should be happy for the privilege. No, the good ones will leave and will find other work. You can say "Well nobody is irreplaceable," and while that is a general global truth, it can be false in specific situations. You can find that someone you shuffle out was extremely important to your operation, and you cannot replace them in the time frame that is needed and for the price you can afford. As such part (or all) of your company may suffer performance wise or even fail.

New people are not immediately 100% productive, it takes time to learn systems (the more specialized the longer) and finding good people can be hard. In particular if you need someone who is willing to hit the ground running immediately, do a ton of work, etc you are usually talking a consultant and an expensive one at that, or a consulting firm and several consultants. You can spend a year's salary in a few weeks easy depending on what you need.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Opportunist]

Well, technically, if you have to know, yes, I'm kinda irreplacable. Last time I checked there are about 5 people on this marble we call Earth that have the set of skills I can offer. Granted, there's also only a market for about 500, but you can probably see that there's not always "100 candidates per job". Sometimes, you have 100 jobs per candidate. Or, in other terms... I probably make more money than you. And I don't even have to play golf to get it.

But let's assume I'm replacable. Yes, you can fire me. And hire someone else. Who will need about 1-3 months to get "into" the job, depending on his skill level. If he is one of the few people who can pick up an IT job made for 4 people in just 1 month, expect to pay him WELL. After that time, he could become productive. After that time, though, he usually also finds out that you're essentially underpaying him, because he has the workload of four people to carry on a one person paycheck. So there's two possible outcomes: He's either also asking for more money or he finds something better without first asking for more money. Either way, you're again looking for someone who will, again, need 1-3 months to get into the game.

The idea of hire and fire has NEVER worked well in IT. IT ain't bricklaying or plumbing. It's not "you've done it once, you do the same here". You never do the same job in two different companies. Even if they happen to have essentially the same goals. You will never be able to "plug and play" someone. And you can utterly forget it when it comes to development.

In other words, yes, you can easily hire someone else. If you can handle the lost output of about a quarter. Always provided that you don't fall for someone only claiming to have the skills you want and HR being too stupid to weed out the duds.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[mysidia]

I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.

In other words, he'd be perfect in management?

If he uses the project as leverage, he's cold and manipulative. If he doesn't, he's a fool, perfect candidate to be manipulated by management into increasingly many job duties, with no improvement in pay, or recognition for performance.

You think companies believe that being manipulative is bad?

Companies exist to manipulate their prospective customers to buy product from them

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Opportunist]

That's actually the big problem. And the more qualification you require (not because you think it's cute to have a triple-PhD changing your lightbulbs, but because they're utterly worthless if they don't have the qualification), the worse it gets.

As a former boss of mine said "There's three qualifications for this job: Good. Available. No pertinent convictions. Pick two. You can't get three." It's very true. For some jobs you just cannot find fitting people. And WHEN you finally get an applicant, you may rest assured that he fits into the "cute, but clueless" drawer. Oh, there's billions of people out there who can slap together a web page, and hey, they can do JavaScript. Why not apply for a job where they ask for intimate knowledge of IA32 assembler? Wikipedia said it's a programming language and, hey, programming is programming, right?

*facepalm*

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[SecurityGuy]

This isn't quite as nuts as it reads.

If you, dear reader, aren't really very good at your job and are paid well already, yeah, sit down and do your job. You're already paid fairly.

If, however the OP's assertions are true and he was hired for one job and is now doing 2 or 3 others capably and at a rate far below market, any manager that acts this way deserves a one way ticket to the street.

Look, realistically appropriate pay is whatever is reasonable to the parties involved. If you get a genius right out of high school who can do the work of three senior guys for peanuts, you're not going to pay him $150k. Period. He's thrilled to get a lot less. If you've got a guy who is doing $120,000 worth of work and wants to make more than $40,000, you're a flat dumbass if you don't give him a raise. He'll probably be thrilled to get $50,000 and you're still $70,000 in the black.

FWIW, been there done that. Asked for a well justified raise and didn't get it. I think they offered me 8% or so. I left and doubled my salary.

Honestly, if you're that good have a casual conversation and feel the company out. If they're not going to do anything for you, leave. By the way, dear manager, that's the equivalent of firing you, and bad managers are the #1 reason people leave.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[JakiChan]

When people say "not a team player" in this context what it really means is that they won't overwork themselves in order to increase the value for equity holders. In other words, they aren't willing to give you what you haven't paid for.

Unless you have a huge equity stake then don't bother being a "team player". Because your "coach" will cut you from the team without a second thought. One way loyalty isn't loyalty.

Some simple, but effective tactics

[they_call_me_quag]

(1)
Every time your boss hands you some new responsibility ask him "which of my current responsibilities should I push to the bottom of my prioritized list so that I can take on this new responsibility?" Be persistent... he needs to provide an answer. Explain that you can only make a small number of tasks (1-3) your "top priority" and everything else will either get worked on sporadically or fall by the wayside entirely. Force him to prioritize... that's his job. Be sure to get this in writing (email).

(2)
Learn to tactfully say "no". I do this ALL THE TIME at my job. I explain that my primary duty is too important to the company for me to get distracted by some additional work. I simply refuse to be assigned the work. This only works if you are really good at your core duties and are not easily replaceable. It also help if you generate revenue. (Suck on that, developers).

(3)
Start looking RIGHT NOW for the job you really want. When you find it, drop this one like the stinking bag of shit it is. Life is too short to hate your job... you could get brain cancer next year and die within 18 months... why spend your time between now and then being miserable?

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

When your qualifications require things that aren't required for the job, it's easy to find that everyone is unqualified.

eg: Requiring post-secondary education for a job which neither legally or even to save face requires it. This usually applies to almost all IT positions.

eg #2: Requiring a mix of experience and formal education that is extremely unlikely. Such as requiring university level education including classes explaining .net products, and 10 years IT experience.

eg #3: Requiring multidisciplinary education/experience for a single discipline job. For example, requiring java/php/assembler/ee knowledge to maintain a smaller company's servers.

eg #4: Requiring zero past convictions when your job neither legally requires it and neither do your customers, such as expecting the screwdriver geek assembling your systems to have never been convicted of a sex crime, so you don't even consider the guy that was caught peeing in a fountain when he was 16 and drunk.

I could go on, I've seen it all and it's idiotic. You want these things? Be prepared to pay the $200k a year that goes along with it. Or be prepared to get the guy who shows up to work every other Wednesday.

Companies need to start considering every resume they receive that passes the absolute most basic requirements for the job, and then sort them by likelihood of being a quality employee. Then you get good labour at a decent rate, and you have more than 2 candidates to choose from.

Re:Bad, Bad Idea

[CAIMLAS]

No kidding.

And given the original poster's words, it would appear this is a "small company". Chances are he was initially hired as a stand in or for a limited role/limited responsibility, and they hit hard times. He was hired as an "Online Content Writer" (whatever the fuck that is) and is, in essence, a "tech writer".

This is a job the vast majority of technically inclined people could perform - yet not everyone (nevermind the majority of tech writers) can come close to hacking the other responsibilities he's been able to put under his belt. If he's not gotten any raise at all, chances are he's "vastly underpaid", and there's little chance they could find someone to fill his shoes at all - never mind anywhere near his salary.

I've seen these job postings. They go something like this (I'm sure you've seen them, too):

Wanted: IT Professional

Must be proficient in Microsoft Office, Visio, Sharepoint, Powerpoint, etc.

Successful candidate will be responsible for routine documentation of our entire product line. Weekly articles for online publication will also be necessary.

Must have 2-3+ years administering Windows desktops and Linux servers. Must be comfortable with the full range of server maintenance tasks.

Familiar with phone, fax, etc. systems.

Candidate must be comfortable with the occasional off-hour call.

Successful candidate will spend the majority of his time in a customer-facing environment. We are looking for a people person!

Salary: $35-40k with generous medical benefits!*

*which you will have to pay for yourself out of your salary. Expect 50-80h work weeks and, between the tech support and meetings, you won't have enough time for your core responsibilities. But we won't disclose this; you'll have to relocate, first.

Only desperate people apply for these jobs; competent people will be looking for too much levity: either in pay, or professional (and personal) courtesy. As a result, they won't be hired.

Re:It's different Now for Corporations & Indiv

[Klinky]

Meanwhile he pockets the other 3%.

Free advice from a business owner

[salesgeek]

I'm used to being on the other side of the table. Here are a couple of things people need to understand:

I may be paying you all I can. In which case, there are all kinds of non-monetary things on the table. Days off, vacation, title, etc...

I'm going to ask you what I'd like you to do, and expect you to tell me what you need to do it. More money, someone to take over task X, etc... Tell me. Whatever I'm asking you to take over is probably as important or more important than task X.

Asking for more money isn't a firing level offense by itself. Lots of posts say asking for more money will get you fired. Not true. What will is asking for money and then telling coworkers, acting like you are on a one man strike, or not getting your job done to your usual level. Everyone wants more money. Management gets that. Asking for more money, then copping an attitude doesn't work.

Understand your golden handcuffs -- there's a reason business owners spring for health insurance, options, 401Ks with vesting, etc... If you have benefits that are worth more than your pay (i.e. wife with cancer on company health care or ownership options), don't be shocked when that is pointed out to you... and be very scared if you are not reminded. I had one guy with $28,000 in 401K matching up in six months tell me he'd quite if he didn't get the raise. Remember, sometimes you are worth more fired.