Slashdot Mirror
Getting Paid Fairly When Job Responsibilities Spiral?
greymond writes "I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter. With budget cuts and layoffs I ended up also taking over the website facilitation for three of the company's websites (they let go of the current webmaster). During this time the company has been developing a new website and I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date. Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup. While it's been years since I worked this much with Linux I'm picking it up and moving things along. Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this? Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT."
In this economy, You are pretty replaceble, according to what you say your skills are. So you are behind the eightball.
I was in the same spot, hired as a web content person, next thing I knew I was IT manager for the corporation doing PC support, hands-on sever, PBX, twisted pair, web development and CSM rec, integration and more. I was working 60-80 a week and after 6 months I got a "good job" and no raise, another 2 months and I had to ask for a raise. I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later. They has to hired 2 people to replace me.
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
You are the owner of a company called you. You are experiencing feature creep from your main and only client, your employer. Assuming you are still responsible for what you were originally hired for, you need to point out that you are now being asked to do a lot more than you originally signed on to do, and that you need to reach a new understanding that will work for both of you.
Be professional. Be firm. You might want to read some back blogs by Bob Lewis, as he covers this kind of stuff all the time.
A couple of examples
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/when-raises-dry-negotiate-hard-get-what-you-deserve-404
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/be-your-own-boss-even-if-you-have-boss-037
My brain is overly lubricated
Then tell them "More money or I go. Yes, I know that I'm basically what the whole thing hangs on. I'm your project manager, your web monkey, your server manager, your everything, basically. So, let's discuss my payment, title and other job perks".
But phrase it nicely. Managers don't like to have a dagger at their throat. Even if they basically handed it to you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Amnesia? Do you recall what a LAMP is for? I think they are used to shine light on the book I'm reading.
Tell them you aren't happy with the changes and that you'd like a normal work week in the job you were hired. Be prepared if they elect to have a different idea, so hopefully, you've saved 12 months of living expenses.
You don't want to work at a place that fires people for standing up for their needs as humans.
You need to not work all the time.
You need to have a family life and life outside work.
You need to be fairly compensated for your skills and work. Anything above the original deal (offer letter) is a chance for re-negotiation, which you are happy to entertain.
That greener grass over the fence is better than being an over worked ox.
Dust off your resume and start updating it. You probably won't get more money or a new title unless you threaten to leave. At that point, they'll look to replace you anyway, so you might as well find a new job.
My Sysadmin Blog
How long have you worked there?
What's your education level (do you have a degree)?
How is your relationship with your boss?
Do you have another job offer you could use as leverage
I don't know why the first post above got modded zero because unfortunately the AC is correct. Its nothing personal.
If they can't afford to complete projects then it is very likely they can't afford to give you a raise. Then again you are essentially exceeding your job description. If they hired you to write and then asked you to also edit other articles, that's one thing but they're asking you to take on a whole other role in a different department. I am curious though, how much does a writer for a blog site pull down?
Umm, yeah... I'm going to need you to come in on Saturday.
You and your client need web servers to launch the site. It's as simple as that. Tell them that if they can't afford cloud-based hosting, the alternative is a local solution that YOU (or whoever you hire) will be fully responsible for, from software maintenance all the way down to help desk support. Make sure they know that this is MUCH more expensive (because you WILL charge them accordingly for this, right?) and is not recommended (because I hope you value your time).
If I'm reading the problem right, I find it very irresponsible that the client went ahead with a website redesign project without thinking this far ahead. I hope they didn't rely on you to provide everything, because that definitely tells me they were looking for someone to abuse.
Either way, you need to be confident and ask for what you want. At this point and with this predicament, it would be more expensive and less wise for them to find some cheaper, so you have the leeway to do this.
I speak for the rest of us freelancers when I wish you good luck in getting it done!
You don't seem to understand how modern "capitalism" works. When your boss said "we don't have the budget," he meant exactly that. If you push for more money, or even just ask, if they're really antsy, you'll be filing for unemployment.
Company hires person in low-to-moderately paid job. Responsibilities and workload increase. Salary does not rise to certified-external-hire level. Details to follow.
Basically, this is what happens regularly.
Now, where to go depends on how you assess your position.
Firstly, does the company tend to give people promotions and raises informally, kind of like a surprise, or is it a structured process? Both can happen, but companies mostly only prefer one.
In the former case, there's a 1/3 chance it's coming and they want to see how you handle things - in this case you could drop some very small hints. It's a 1/3 chance they have forgotten about it - in this case you could drop some very small hints, and you might get it. It's a 1/3 chance they simply don't care.
If it's a structured process, you are obviously not getting it without banging the table.
Because your odds are slim, let's consider banging the table. If you do this, you should be very aware that it COULD lead to you not working there any more. In the eyes of the bosses that be, you used to do one job (marketing and writing) and you are doing less of that and more of another, which does not qualify in itself for a raise. So consider - how employable are you? How easily could you get a job if you needed one? If the answer is "pretty good" and "pretty sure", then that's great. I should point out though that online content producers are usually 15 a dozen (in my view) and what you can hire interns for cheap as chips - so if you MUST move, could you find another job doing that at your current salary? To be honest, 'writing articles for a webpage and setting up facebook and twitter' sounds a bit weak for a full-time well-paid job if it's a small company.
You could also ask for an agreement that you will do ONLY this from IT and then no more IT tasks. But in that case you also risk not working there any more - because there might be a reason you have been asked to do more IT instead of articles. If they tell you "well, we didn't like your articles to be honest, but we feel you can add value doing IT", would that crush you completely? Would you be able to face them again?
Lastly, you could ask for a title upgrade only. This is the safest bet. What you decide for the title would A) let you find a better job elsewhere than you otherwise could, B) let you influence somewhat the path (e.g. the title 'Head of IT developments' may land you interviews for other jobs than 'Online Production Manager' C) your title itself should act subtly to influence whether you get more or less marketing/IT tasks going forward.
So the answer is, it very much depends on the details that only you know.
If you have a some kind of a periodic performance review coming up (you do have those?) that would be a good time, but there is nothing wrong with just walking up to your boss and asking for a raise. Be professional and realistic about it, after all whatever the answer is you'll still be working there so you don't want to be hostile. Understand that your relationship with your employer is just about supply and demand, nothing personal. If they can pay you less or else replace you with an equally qualified person at a lower cost they should, and they will. If you can find another employer who will offer you a higher salary, you should etc. I remember during the dot com boom, I could practically change my job monthly and get a higher salary each time. In this economy though, they are probably in a stronger position than you.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
As an accountant, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will slowly run your company into the ground.
The problems here is there's not enough money to go around, and rather than give someone a payrise that would probably see their morale improve and thus often their performance as a knock-on effect you're advocating saving $10k by spending a completely disproportionate amount on advertisement and interviews. Beyond that after the very expensive exercise of actually hiring someone you end up with some idiot who is not only equally dissatisfied with their job and may soon after just run through and ask for the same payrise, but also has no frigging clue about how the company runs and needs to be retrained from the ground up, not to mention that there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that often promote efficiencies that you're advocating just pissing against the wall.
You sir are what is wrong with management today. The flat out attitude that an employee's entire worth is valued by the number they get paid. I hope one day when you fire 500 people so that your can afford a new personal jet each employee comes up and takes turn punching you in your fat face.
First of all, you have to meet your bosses realizing that there are pretty good odds that you will walk out of that door without a job. After all, if you don't want to lose your job then you are in no position to demand a better deal and let's face it, if they are firing people left and right of you then they surely don't intend to keep you for long.
Knowing that, the scenario you painted leads to believe that your bosses rely on you to pretty much do everything remotely related to a computer. That, along with the fact that they have fired pretty much everyone capable of doing what you do, indicates that you do have a decent bargaining power. After all, if they fire you then they will be left with no one to man the ship and good luck finding another poor bastard that is willing to do all that work while being down on the corporate totem pole and while being paid your salary.
Based on that, just be straight forward with your demands. Inform your boss that, based on your new responsibilities and roles, you would like to get a raise and a promotion. Expect your boss to shovel a hefty load of crap when he turns down your offer. If he doesn't budge then just tell him that you quit and therefore let him a) reconsider your demands or b) start looking for yet another poor bastard to dump your work on, which will never manage to do as he will be even more overloaded than you, or b) see his pet project grind to a halt at least for the next 2 to 3 weeks, while he desperately tries to find someone who is willing to be paid peanuts while shouldering all that work.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
I've been in this situation more than once. Each time it happened I worked with my direct manager to figure out the best solution whether that was a higher salary, better benefits (vacation, flex hours, compressed work week), or other, more ephemeral, perks like a new job title. Of the 6 times I was in this situation, 3 of which were at one company, I only walked once.
However, in order to be able to walk that meant I always had an escape plan. Even when I was elated about a job and would go home floating on cloud 9 there were always options in the back of my mind of where I would go. I continued to job hunt: sending out my resume, talking to HR at another company, or networking with friends in the industry at least once a week. Plus, even when my budget was tight, by force of will alone I kept an emergency fund that would let me float for a while without racking up my credit cards.
Never let yourself get in a place where a company, or anyone for that matter, can take advantage of you without recourse.
-- You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
Wrong thing to say to this crowd. Although, honestly, I completely agree with the sentiment and feel that you'll probably be better off in the long run if you do that.
And another bit of advice: don't even think of trying the pseudo-blackmail suggestions that have been modded up so far. You'll find yourself out of work before you know it.
This guy's the limit!
As your employee, I know that your ass is on the line to maintain productivity with the budget you have. Good luck hiring those 100 other applicants who will not handle half as much workload that you shifted on me without asking twice as much as I'm asking for a raise.
Managers often think that hard-working employees can be replaced easily. Those are the managers who are usually first canned during departmental restructuring because of their "turn-over" rate. A good manager knows how to be effective at balancing his employees happiness with the company's productivity.
I'd find a new job and negotiate a higher salary, then turn in my 2 weeks notice. If you want to accept the probable counter-offer you can, but don't be surprised if it's not forthcoming in this day and age.
No matter how important YOU think you are, it's their opinion of you that matters where wages are concerned.
- real hackers don't have sigs -
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street. 1 month to launch? Sure, no problem, we'll give you a 10k per year raise. And then we'll show you the exit a week or two after launch. You think you're irreplaceable? I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
Being employed is not a case of "you're the begger, they're the chooser" They require a service, you're providing that service. If they require more out of you, then they're going to have to give some more. It works well for them if all their employees believe that the employer is the one with all the power. But they need you more than you need them. Without employees, the company will fail. Make them realize they need you, if they're really putting as much responsibility on you as you say, then they do need you.
If it rhymes it must be true.
It seems that ever since this "Great Recession / Depression" started that a lot of things have changed.
Our Fearless Leader has been trying to convince us it's all over now, but the EU would no doubt disagree!
The outlook for Corporations has improved though and some are hiring key people they can find now for some slots (but pay is not too good).
For most though, they have learned they can make a lot of money without their former staffing.
So individuals are doing more, often much much more for the same or less money. Grab a better position if you can, but it might be tough to get the next one. DO NOT do what a friend did and quit before securing the next position. Several of my Professional friends have been out for about 2 years now. I can't understand how they are surviving!
I was quite fortunate to find an Engineering position right at the start of the Recession and have held it.
It's a great position - great work, learning many skills and much programming.
After putting in the required long hours, I actually received commendations for my efforts.
I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
It was eye opening and after reflection, I consider myself quite lucky.
The #1 Goal of ALL Corporations is to maximize profits. Why wouldn't they take full advantage of the current employment situation?
I agree
:)
What you need to do is organise a meeting with the dept manager and HR rep, bring up your work description, acknowledge you position and what other work you have contributed and helped with the company and acknowledge that the finances are a bit tight right now so you would like to renegotiate your contract and within that contract apply appropriate wages and benefits and employment protection (not get fired without good reason). If you were employed for said work and done more than what you are employed for you are entitled to be paid for that said work, or leave (as your loosing out for doing more work than being paid for), make sure during negotiation that you bring up the cost of employing 1 or more people, including hours/days/weeks lost in training and catching up with the projects, and with no documentation thats a few months work there....
this should give you a fighting chance, always get everything in writing
It's not a typo if you understood the meaning!
Do some research and get good estimates of what people doing your job(s) in the area earn. Figure out how much you are worth based on how much time you spend doing each of these jobs and sit down with the person who has the power to give you the raise you deserve and present your case. You'd be surprised how willing most bosses are to give you a small bump to keep you happy, especially if they know you are being overworked. On the other hand, if this company is going through budget cuts and layoffs and can't afford to hire the right people for the job, you might be better off keeping your mouth shut, updating your resume, and shopping for a new job.
A few years ago, I started a new job -- I was hired to do a small task, expected to take 6 to 12 months (government contracting). At the time, I had been unemployed for 7 months, and so had taken a lower pay rate, thinking it was an easy job, and I'd use the tuition benefits to continue work on my master's degree.
My second day on the job, someone quit and I got handed his task. My third day on the job, in a meeting w/ HR for the company, I was told that if my job changed significantly, they could get me a promotion. I told her that it had already happened. She must've thought I was joking as *nothing* was done about it.
Every couple of months, I brought it up with my manager. (mind you, my manager didn't deal with my tasking -- it's government contracting, so the ATR (civil servant) tells me what to do, my manager only dealt with making sure we were complying with contract requirements and HR issues). I had meetings with my manager's boss, and I think at one time even his boss. It was nothing but a run-around.
They told me they couldn't do anything 'til the annual raises. When I got a 7% raise and bitched, they acted like I should be grateful. I stayed on as I knew the contract was up for rebid. (and told my manager and ATR that if the company I worked for won, I was quitting). It dragged on something like an extra 6 months because of one of the losing companies bitching that it was unfairly awarded.
Of course, the sub-contractor that I was passed off to said they didn't want to re-negotiate anyone's pay, and it took my ATR and manger (now working for the new prime contractor) telling them that they needed to make an exception for me, and that I should get a 20-25% raise.
Because of my being difficult, I got less than a 20% raise (they had said they wouldn't hire me unless I gave them a paystub, but I had blacked out all of the amounts that could've been used to calculate my pay rate ... I missed the 'year to date' amount, and they didn't know I had gotten a raise 2 months before, so they had thought they were offering me a 22.5% raise.)
In the end -- it was 2 years to get the issue resolved. If I hadn't switched companies, I don't think it would've gotten changed, as L-3 Communications was absolute dicks to me on the issue the whole time.
So, the moral of the story -- if you approach them, and they don't do something about it quickly -- walk. Well, line up a new job first -- if they start giving excuses as to why they can't do anything, start looking for a new job, as it's a sign they don't care.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
The goal is to take your skills and start your own business doing what your employer would have you do. Why not get the revenue if you're doing the work? Puts more managers like OP out of work as all they can typically do is "manage".
Take a few hours to basically put together a report of how long all this is going to take and over estimate. Overestimating is important here. When you explain this to your boss, don't say I can't do blah, say this is what I can do. They may ask for more, say that's impossible. When they push, and they will, give them a little, just enough to cut into your overestimate then hope they take it. If they push and try to make you do 60-80 hours, you are fucked. Dust up your resume. But if they accept your logic and push the schedule or hire someone then logic wins.
Your company is fucked right now. They somehow got into a situation where they need to meet a goal without proper resources. So they are trying to squeeze you for all they can and you let them. The above is what you should have done originally. Now that they saddled you with this they are glig to blame failures on you. You always need to know what you can and can't do. They have no money to fulfill your requests but if you push back politely you might find something. However I doubt this. If they were good managers they wouldn't be in this situation.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Sounds to me they've already dumped some "important" people to let someone unqualified (no offense intended, but that's how it seems) do the job. I doubt they'd be too troubled about doing it again. It's true you might be able to get a little extra if you demand it right before a deadline, but you'll also end up out of a job right after the deadline, so I wouldn't suggest that. Your best option is to do your homework, then tactfully broach the subject. By doing your homework, I mean find out how much someone doing your job can expect to make at similar jobs in your area. That gives you justification for why you should be paid more. You could also put out some feelers about whether there are jobs available; but be careful, because your company might not want to keep you if they think you're going to leave. Anyway, once you've done that, approach them with an attitude of "we need to renegotiate my contract." This is important. You do not want to simply state that they need to pay you more; that would make them defensive. You also shouldn't approach it like you're begging for money, because then you're putting the decision entirely in their hands. Instead, come with a list of changes you'd be interested in seeing: title, money, underlings, etc. Much like buying a car, you want to aim a little better than you expect to get, so you've got room to haggle. Be firm but not aggressive or offensive; remember that you are selling a valuable commodity. If you do this right you can earn their respect and make them feel you deserve more; and you'll probably get both a small to medium raise and a better title.
Look if they do not have enough money to employ a proper admin it is time to cut and run.
Got Code?
Blah blah blah. That's what I just read.
1. Float some resumes.
2. Call out sick when in interviews
3. Pick the new job you like. Haven't made it to step 3? Stop bitching.
Life isn't that hard.
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
And every single one of them wants triple what you're currently paying.
Because if they were more qualified and willing to work for the same amount, you'd be replacing your current employee.
I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter.
Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup.
This is where you tell them, "gee, that LAMP sounds like fun... As a writer, while I seem to be ok at some of this ad hoc project management, I really don't know the first thing about setting up a linux whatever server. Do you think I could get some training?"
If they are simply demanding that you figure it out and get it done. Just do your best while updating your resume and finding a new job. A company that plays this game will never give you a raise. In their eyes, the mere fact that you could take on more work, while getting your original work done, means you were being overpaid to begin with.
Ask Slashdot: Where bad ideas meet poor googling skills.
Sounds easy, but sometimes it can be hard.
Ask for it. If some BS answer comes up, tell them, that they are saving on others' salaries, and that saving could benefit the ones taking over extras.
Either way, if you cannot ask for a raise for more work at a company, what kind of future are you expecting there? I guess you do not want to retire from there, because you would be making the same $$ in a management role with a title that does not match.
Of course, if you are feeding a family where jobs are scarce, you should just suck it up and wait for something better.
However, asking for a raise is not a bad thing in the eyes of most management, if they know you work a lot and do it well.
Just my 2c.....
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street.
And as a consultant who has seen many instances of the problem dictating the solution, your short-sightedness is going to bring you system failures, data loss, lower productivity and higher down stream costs.
Imagine if you walked in to accounting and announced that they were also going to need to handle HR. I'm sure there would be a lot of surprised looks. But when it comes to IT managers think nothing of walking in telling them they're also going to be taking care of the phone system or the accounting system or any number other departmental systems and then expecting them to just add that to what they already do.
I agree with the parent, you can't let other people set you up for failure. That's just as bad for your career. Got a call today for a job where the camel carrying too many straws quit. As they listed off all the required duties, I cut them off before they got to the end. It was a loser contract. They wanted 80 hours of work while paying for 40, the contracting process was a mess, then they tried to low ball the rate. Sometimes it's better to say no thanks.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
First, do you enjoy working there? Second, do you see this as a place you would like to work for the long term (say greater than 5 years).I think that these answers will dictate your action.
If the answer to both is no then you should immediately brush up your resume and find another job.
If you answered yes, then you should document your situation. Be sure to compare what you were hired for and what you are currently doing. Also include the hours required to complete the tasks in your expanded scope. If everyone there is working 50-60 hours on salary you will not get much sympathy for the extra hours. When everything is in place go to your manager or boss and be sure that he/she understands how much your job has changed. Presumably everything your are doing is important to the companies current goals. Asking for "mo money" is up to you but don't demand unless you have a secondary plan (such as a nest egg or other job offer). You will actually be doing a sales presentation as to why your job is worth more to the company. Done correctly the manager will get the hint without directly asking for a salary increase.
Sometimes one has to pay dues to reap the benefits later. You will have to assess, based on your managers response, as to what those future benefits could be and how the situation might change. This approach will give you and the company time to sort it out; give it a month or whatever you are comfortable with. You always have the option of deciding the answer to the above questions is no and at that time you can begin your job search in earnest.
I think one of the things missing is, based upon the summary, it sounds like the company is taking the actions I've seen far too often of a company that is about to go under. It certainly isn't be managed very well, but even if it was, these sound like desperate actions, and regardless of what is done, I doubt the poster is going to have a place to go to work within 6 months. I could be wrong, of course, but I've had some experience in this area unfortunately.
Unless they happen to be related to the owners.*
*Sorry, personal pet peeve of mine.
This is the most basic part of being employed. You walk into your manager's office, close the door, point out how many new, important, and unwanted responsibilities you now have.
How confrontational you want to get is up to you, and largely depends on how willing you are to quit. You can take the soft approach, and just say you think a raise is in order, or else you'd prefer to relinquish your new duties, and sit quietly, hoping he comes back with a reasonable figure. Alternatively, if it's worth playing chicken with your job, you can name a figure, and be intractable when he tries to say how little money they have, and names some lower figure instead.
Personally, I'm a bit more of a pain in the ass... I don't believe in arm-twisting my employer every time they should be doing the right thing. If they can't figure out I've done a hell of a lot for them, and compensate me appropriately, I'm finding another job ASAP, and giving my two weeks' notice. Of course that invariably results in a counter-offer, but I simply turn them down flat, since they've shown their lack of respect for me every day up to that point. They're probably just looking to keep me on for a couple months, until they can find and train someone a bit cheaper, and then fire me without warning. Continuing to work for an employer who isn't doing good by you, without having to be asked (or threatened) constantly, is idiotic.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Greetings and salutations...
While this is a great exposition of the way management thinks, it also shows how truly short-sighted and unwise management can be. Lord knows, I have seen this sort of room-temperature IQ in companies MANY times over the years.
The fact of the matter is that these are high-tech jobs that require a great deal of skill and knowledge. Also, EVERY setup like this is unique. it is not like hiring a new backhoe operator, where pretty much every backhoe works the same!
now....let us say you put off the employee with pretty promises that you have no intentions of following through on. IT folks tend to be pretty bright, and, will catch on fairly quickly to this. Unless there are some rewards showing up, then, productivity will suffer, or, the quality of work will degrade. Without adequate rewards, you are, essentially, treating your employee as a slave, and, NO slave is very productive.
Say, you DO give the employee a big raise, with the intentions of dumping them after the project is "done". Again...this works once, at best, and if your IT person has any experience under their belt, that has probably already happened to them once. They will recognize this and, again...productivity and quality will suffer.
Do you want to know what the "tell" is in this scenario? The fact that the employee has been loaded with tons of extra work and responsibility, and has had to ASK for more money. The smart manager, who is truly interested in getting the project knocked out, getting a quality product, and keeping a valuable resource for the company will walk in and say something on the order of "we have these extra tasks to add to your job description, and, since we realize this is an expansion of our requirements, here are some perks/cash/etc we are adding to your pay package".
It is true that ANY employee can be replaced. However, how much is the company willing at absorb in terms of lost productivity, training, and general delays from the normal startup time that it takes for a new hire to get an understanding of the setup to the point that they are NOT dangerous? management tends to forget that....
regards
dave mundt
YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
I think I recognize this story, most likely they got other people that can be an Online Content Producer but probably no one to be their web/IT-guru. So you get squeezed into that role, but do you know what happens when the times get better? They hire more writers and you don't get to return because you're the one that knows all the systems and everything. Trust me there's always some immediate concern which means they need you and your institutional knowledge even though they say it's only temporary. The part I'm not so sure of is whether you'd just like better recognition and pay for it, or if it's that you don't want to do it, because you got limited playing room and can't pursue both at once.
If you want to move up, at the very least go to your boss and say that with all the responsibility you're taking you'd like a better title, but then you're pretty much branding yourself in the direction you say you don't want to go. If you really want to be a writer, then maybe having that on your CV isn't such a bad thing even if you did lots of other non-writing activity? Wait for the economy to get a little better then get a job that actually matches your job description. I don't think being a little honest with your employer hurts either, that yes you can manage the job but this is not the sort of work that makes you happy. Managers with a clue will understand what this means, you have the professional ethics to do it but you'll be leaving for another position if this goes on. And even if you have a bad manager, they don't like to cut important staff either because normally during a downturn they don't get to rehire, so lots of headache for them making things go round. Except the even more irrational ones, but then you probably don't want to work there anyway...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Agreed. While I was with a past employer, they had a massive surprise layoff in the production department. They had to hire security because of all the threats they got from angry but hard-working married people.
My own boss, in the repair department, later gave me a month's warning in advance that I was going to be laid off. He even let me take the rest of the day off that day, for pay. The repair department was to be outsourced across the country so we could get faster turnaround, and it was now my job to train the people who were taking over for me.
I was elated to have been treated so well. I busted my ass hard for the company and was extended 4 times before I was finally laid off.
This is absolutely true.
Unless the manager knows the company will go bankrupt if they fire you, they'll kill the company rather than admit you are irreplaceable.
I've seen companies pay a million bucks to PROVE that a $50k employee wasn't irreplaceable.
Your best option is do your best and FAIL at the web server jobs because you don't have those skills.
You absolutely don't want to be the IT person at a company like that. You'll be working nights, weekends and holidays while everyone else is drinking at the bar partying.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say either this is an exaggeration by 50-100x, or you really have no way to tell who's qualified for the position. No, he isn't irreplaceable. However, HR managers who believe that good employees (as opposed to line workers) are, in fact, replaceable, are going to send their business into the gutter. Because, frankly, the existence of replacements doesn't mean that YOU will find one.
Because I get the feeling you aren't working for a company everyone wants to work at--not Google or some amazing game studio or anything else really fun. So they won't be coming to you. That means that pretty much every resume you'll get is just someone looking for "a job, any job." Those applicants are not going to be the five-star workers. Probably not even three-star. However, what you're asking for is someone who's at least 3-4 stars, like the submitter claims to be--hard working, competent, learns fast, trying to be professional, actually getting things done, has proven himself, and who has clearly become the go-to guy for these sorts of things.
You don't want a prima donna. Got it. And GP's grandstanding is pretty assholeish. However, if it was you who was in charge of his living or dying, he would be justified in his assholishness (if not in his method), because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't pay him what he was worth. And guess what? Between the two of you, you'll probably be the one who's wrong. Now, maybe the GP is really just trolling businesses and doesn't know Jack Schitt. On the other hand, what he suggested could easily come naturally--because in the big push before a launch, people can get burned out and actually need that kind of incentive to stay instead of being reamed up the ass. And all you just did was screw him out of both fair pay for his current work, and future employment. Thanks.
I don't understand why you'd even consider staying at a company that seems to be going down the gutter anyway...
You seem to be a valuable employee; if it shined through on Slashdot it'll shine through in your resume and interviews. The economy's not THAT bad, start sending out your resume because this job isn't going lead you anywhere good.
Download free e-books, lectures, and tutorials at bookgoldmine.com
Everyone has job responsibilities that exceed their original job description. Your choices are to either wait for your annual review and ensure that you get recognized/rewarded or to look for a new job. If you start asking for a raise, don't be surprised if you find yourself out of a job. If choose to look for a new job, your resume will be a bit beefier. Tread lightly.
At least from my experience there is no real easy path. Every significant pay raise I've gotten has been because I've applied for and accepted a new job. Sometimes with the same company and sometimes with another. The most bizarre was the transition from my previous position to my current one. Basically I wanted a 20% raise because I was being significantly underpaid. The only way for me to get it was to apply for another roughly equivalent job at the same organization, stop all work on the projects I was doing, and start working on entirely new projects. I was hired into the new job and got my raise, but the organization had to replace me and ended up paying the new guy what I was asking for anyway. The kicker is that he more or less ended up starting over from scratch and a years worth of work was thrown away. No one batted an eye at any of it though. These days it just seems to be the way things are done. If you want to advance you have to keep moving and not stay anywhere too long. Perhaps some day I'll find a place where they want to keep employees and find ways to let them advance in a saner manner, but I haven't found it yet.
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player. These are people you have to continue to work with and they will never trust you again.
If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story.
It's all about how you say it, are you in it for the long haul? Do they know that? Are you polite, willing to be flexible? Are you bringing the problem to THEIR attention with some suggested solutions and letting them decide?
Some situations will never be resolvable as one side or the other just doesn't care or wont budge. But most can be solved quite amicably to both sides with a little forethought and common courtesy.
Also, one thing to remember is that if you are going to convince someone you are over-booked, you need to tell them that each time they add an assignment to your plate, else they will continue to push you to your limits (which is not always a bad thing).
meep
After asking for a raise and being refused, go look for a new job describing your current skills. When you find one, ask for what you think you are worth. You will likely get close to it. Take the offer back to your current company and see if they will match it. They would be idiots to not match it, but they will probably be idiots.
The job market is expanding at this point. Go for it.
RLH
The only way I've ever managed to get a proportional raise was to get a new job. Companies don't like to give out raises, and prefer to hire someone for more rather than promote from within. It's ass-backwards, but that's the way the world works.
First you give a long list of add-on responsibilities you got because the company doesn't have any money. Then you ask us how to get more money. The question answers itself, really.
Yes, it's not fair. Yes, it would be stupid of them not to do their best to hang onto you, now that so much is dependent on you. So what? Tech companies, especially tech companies in trouble, are not known for their fairness or smarts. No matter how you go about asking, there can be only one answer: "the money's just not there."
Not that it matters. This company is clearly circling the drain.
This is a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.
Listen to the folks telling you to slow down and prioritize. Have a friendly talk with your boss about a promotion to go with the new responsibilities. Ask for help (even if you do not need it) from your boss prioritizing your responsibilities so you can get the most important things done in your 40 hours... this discussion will accomplish several things: your boss will understand exactly what and how much you have on your plate, you make it clear working more than 40 hours long-term is not desirable, hopefully some of your shit tasks get delegated elsewhere, and finally, you get some important satisfaction knowing you are making an effort to get control of the situation. Frankly, it sounds like you are on a sinking ship. If so, make a plan to get off the boat voluntarily.
If the situation does not improve, this is headed a very ugly direction. Stress can destroy your health, and burnout can last for years (perhaps a lifetime). I don't have words to describe how painful and destructive stress and burnout really are. Just take my word for it: Don't go there.
I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date.
...
Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this?
You have been in the role of PM, so you got to have enough people skill by now, why don't you "just" go ahead and really ask your boss for more money? Of course, I understand it is more than "just" go and ask, you need to be prepared, that's where the 2nd part comes in: always keep an eye out for another job.
Without keeping an eye on the job market, you wouldn't know how much you can get from another job. "Keeping an eye out" doesn't mean you apply for any job that looks like a match, but you need to know what people pay for someone doing what you have been/are doing now.
Equipped with knowledge of the market, you can honestly and confidently approach your boss and say "I have been doing role X for the past Y months and it seems I will continue to do so in the near future. I think it would be best if my job title and compensation would be adjusted accordingly. I understand that in the market, role X usually pays around $XXX-XXX. It would be acceptable to me if my pay is adjusted to similar levels."
If your boss say no, accept gracefully and end the meeting, no need to argue. DON'T play any tricks or sabotage your work. Do your job as you always had, that's what being "professional" is about. BUT actively seek another job immediately, and make no fuss about it. When you found another job that pays what you want, jump ship ASAP without regrets. Don't waste time with your current boss even if he offers to pay more now, he has just proven to you that he won't be giving you any raise unless you leave, you wouldn't want to do that again in 2-3 years' time.
What if you are unable to find another job that pays what you want? That means you really are asking too much. Either reduce what you have asking for, or accept your current job with the understanding you are not underpaid.
Whatever outcome, you will have no need to resent your situation anymore. That will be good.
Oliver.
He's spot on. He could have phrased it more delicately, but honestly you could use a little shaking up.
That's what your job has evolved into, and that is the pay. Arm twisting will accomplish nothing for you except a quick trip to the street. They're broke. You've already said so. That's why they're laying off all the people you've replaced and have no budget for staff.
You try to go oil drilling with these guys and you won't get a thing except a fresh new bullseye on your back.
My advice? Talk them into a title change only. Emphasize you're not digging for a raise, but you'd like something to reflect your new duties. Get your new impressive title, then bust ass for the next 3 months to get settled in with your new title. Then get your ass to careerbuilder and craigslist and use your new fancy title to negotiate a better job. These guys are garden variety passive aggressives PHBs that will continue to dump on you until you break. Ditch them.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
This is a pretty common thing for managers to do. Give you the minimum they think you'll accept, and say they went to the mat "for you". Right. It *might* be true, but I seriously doubt it.
Funny how two faced hypocrites like you don't have any problems with companies blackmailing theirm employees.
You're not alone, fair or not, all companies expect employees to continually improve productivity. The ones that do are retained, those that can't are not. The job market is cut-throat, out-perform your peers, keep your skills sharp, and make sure your resume is up to date and being seen.
Understand it and plan for it.
Keep your resume up-to-date and USE it. Shop yourself around at least every year to see what you're really worth and what job skills you should be working on.
The good thing about situations like that is that they look GREAT on your resume. Just work on the narrative and explain how you took on more responsibilities as the needs of your employer changed.
I think you misread Chevman's post. He didn't say he'd fire anyone who asked for a raise; he said he'd fire someone who used blackmail to get a raise. He didn't say anything about whether he would reward those people who do a good job.
I don't think you know what the word "blackmail" means.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
You need to read Scott Adams' "The Joy of Work." If you really want to write articles and be in Marketing don't volunteer to do IT stuff. Clearly, your strategy of "quick and courteous service" (see page 40) is not working out for you.
- Things are the way they are because they're coded that way -
Learn to say "NO". Scale down your responsibilities. Be diplomatic about it. Basically every now and then ask your boss, "I have X, Y and Z on my plate but I only have time for two of the three. Which one do we want to drop, outsource, have someone else do?" That's how you get your life back—through careful budgeting and time management.
Face it, it's better to do a good job on two things than shitty job on three. This is probably the reason why you didn't get promoted—as a rule, people don't get promoted for doing shitty work.
Your task is to have enough diplomatic skill to explain this to your management without it reflecting negatively on you as a professional.
I think you hit on a key thing with "If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story".
Sometimes a payraise simply isn't the solution. I'd approach it in the manner of like "listen, we've got to do SOMETHING. Pay me so I can justify working 60-80 hours a week or relieve me of some of these duties with a new employee or shift some of it to an existing employee. The manager's job is to support you and to make sure the job gets done. If you approach it in terms of "I have a problem, can you help me fix this?" then you're off on the right foot.
But also realize- sometimes there are inflexible employers who either poorly budgeted or simply don't have enough foresight to realize the value of their people. However, I as a small business owner know absolutely that my people are my number 1 asset. If I can't afford to pay someone more, but I know they're worth it then I'll at least explain why (typically a lack of steady work) and offer for them to proactive with helping us find new work. In essence it becomes - "help me help you". But then again - in a larger corporate environment you'd have more to worry about if they're having trouble finding steady work which raises a whole different slew of issues.
If you implicitly trust your boss and your employer to be fair, go to them and explain the situation, that you feel you're being taken advantage of, and ask how you can work together to address that.
If you have any lower level of trust, immediately start looking for work. When you find a new job and give notice, do NOT take an offer to stay on if they match the offer at your new job.
My last job, I was an 'indispensable man' keeping the tech end of a small company together. I did not in any way, shape, or form, trust the management or owners of the company. For various reasons, I decided it was time to move on, found a new job, and gave notice. They immediately offered to match what I would be making at the new job (a 30% raise over what I had been making). I declined politely, worked my two weeks and left. They hired my predecessor back, at the same salary I had left for, and gave another employee a large raise to stay... and then cut both their salaries by a third 6 weeks later.
Had I stayed, the same would have happened to me - I'd have given up what has turned out to be a dream job for me, in exchange for continuing to work for people I didn't trust, for pretty much the same money (once it was too late and the opportunity to move was gone).
but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.
I highly agree with this statement. If you want a raise, you should do it at the beginning of a project, not the end. Otherwise, from your bosses perspective, it's kinda like renegotiating the price after they've paid the agreed-upon price tag. However, However, I feel its sufficiently diplomatic to ask for more resources that will help move the project along. If your being overworked, it helps to communicate what you can do and what resources you need to reach the agreed upon goal. If you agree upon a schedule and provide progress reports, your boss can gauge the effort your making and decide whether your worth it or need more help. Beyond that, it's a question of how much you enjoy your work. If your not happy and management doesn't give you the resources to do your job, it wouldn't be a bad idea to work somewhere else.
I suspect if anyone is working up to 80 hours, they're either paid a decent amount, not managing expectations very well, or a masochist.
You sound like someone who hasn't worked in the real world as a manager.
I know this is is slashdot and everyone who can half-ass a LAMP setup and update the WordPress thinks they are a irreplaceable "five star" technical superstud. But the reality is most of you people are barely competent despite your high opinions of yourself.
You can easily get hundreds of replies to craigslist post for this type of work, the biggest difficulty is picking the peanuts out of all the shit.
And come on, the OP gets paid for posting on facebook. It's an entry-level job at best.
you are one of those people that justifies your position with "But I interviewed 100 people each month for the last 3 months!"
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player. These are people you have to continue to work with and they will never trust you again.
He didn't fire the first shot, his employer did. They used the economic downturn and his goodwill to dump huge quantities of additional responsibility on him without any compensation. All he is doing is returning fire and all power to him. Honestly, if they treat him like this now odds are he'll get laid off after project launch anyway, as they are treating him as disposable. So he might as well get his pay now 'cos he sure won't get it later.
It's always so fun when people only see employers' side of things. And then those same people cannot fathom why unions exist.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Find another job. Anyone going in to major online content provision with minimal budget as described doesn't understand the problem.
Do not take this personally. You are someone doing a job. Yes, you think you should be paid fairly for that work, but the company will willingly pay you far less than you are worth, if you are willing. There are two ways to fix this: walk, or negotiate. Negotiating may end up forcing you out -- a lot depends on your attitude, and what are the actual intentions of the company. So if you have any interest in keeping the current job, make a plan B, which is figure out where you would go if the negotiation fails. Futhermore, interviewing elsewhere will let you know what you are actually worth on the open market. And who knows, you may find a job you like far better. Do not threaten. It's business. Also, you say: "With budget cuts and layoffs..." Um, your company may be imploding. Why do you want to stay there? Look around. Believe me, you do not want to stick to a ship that is sinking. I've been there and it is not pretty.
Join the window installer's union, where prosperity is a brick throw away!
I think you misread Chevman's post. He didn't say he'd fire anyone who asked for a raise; he said he'd fire someone who used blackmail to get a raise. He didn't say anything about whether he would reward those people who do a good job.
I don't think you know what the word "blackmail" means.
Strongly agreed. "Blackmail" requires illegality. This is a completely legal contract negotiation. The employer broke the original agreement by adding responsibilities and the employee is now in a position of having the choice of whether to continue to honor his end of the contract or hold out for a new one. The latter is not "blackmail".
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say either this is an exaggeration by 50-100x, or you really have no way to tell who's qualified for the position.
Pretty sure it's the latter. It's true that every advertised position these days garners thousands of resumes. But that's obviously not the whole story, for most of the candidates are not qualified. I work for a Fortune 10 company and we are having trouble filling some spots not because of lack of candidates but because people either are unqualified or do not show up for interviews (or, in some cases, don't show up for their first day of work.) It is really disturbing how many of the 9.7% of unemployed workers out there are unemployed because they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground--it implies to me that our unemployment rate is going to stay high for a while due to severe education deficiencies in the recent past. It's disheartening.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Like it or not, right now employment is a "buyer's market." If you can find a more satisfying job with better pay then go for it, otherwise, one of the perks of working where you are working right now is that you aren't unemployed.
Perhaps if and when the economy improves you will be in a better position to negotiate in your favor.
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This is not what I see everywhere I go. At least in Germany: Do a shitty job. Else you chances of promotion are slim. The incompetenter you are the better.
Been There. Done That. You are right.
It is not time to ask for a raise and a title. It is time to find someone else to work for. Go ahead and ask for the title without the raise, so that you can put it on your resume.
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
If that's what you really want, then that's what you should be working toward. IT is a thankless, 24/7 routine where you do well if nothing happens; and since nothing happens there is sometimes a belief of some managers that you aren't really doing anything. Writing and working with marketing is far better in this aspect (and in many others.) Besides, if you become a reluctant IT guy you will eventually lose your writing skills; you won't be marketable for what you love to do, and you won't be a great IT guy either. You need experience in your chosen field if you want to develop professionally, and if you don't want a career in IT then don't go for it. If the company doesn't want you any more in the writing/marketing position then look for another job before it's too late.
Fight for the title bump, and let them keep the cash. The title bump helps when you're applying for the next job.
Your current employer appears to be having money problems, so they're not going to be able to give much of a raise. That's probably a lost cause unless they bring in more revenue.
Boss: "Hey Joe, our old webmaster died/resigned/etc. Would you mind taking over for him?"
Joe: "Do I get paid more?"
You can take it from there, depending on the boss' answer.
Yes. You should ask for a raise and a job title change. ...That you have taken on responsibilities that formerly were performed by,
Just go through exactly what you said in your post:
what is it, 3 other people.
If that fails, then like someone said, fallback to asking for the title change only,
and start looking for another job. That being said, make sure the new title you ask
for is the kind of work you want in your next job.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
I see the same thing, albeit at a much smaller company. We get thousands of very shiny resumes, from people with all sorts of checklist talents, who apparently actually possess none of them. We have about a 150 (fully qualified!) resumes : 1 hire ratio right now, and things are getting worse.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
If you need a resume then you're doing it wrong. Make a name for yourself and sell your name - the whole time you're employed. If your status changes from "unavailable" to "?" on your website, FB and Linkedin and you don't have a dozen offers of employment in 24 hours, then you've failed. If your friends in the industry keep touch many of them are checking to see if you're available now because really you're not that interesting but they get a spiff for bringing you in. If you're selling yourself properly then you're happy where you are and you still get 4-8 unconditional offers a year, and dozens of inquiries that might be. You can call around to your friends if you get desperate, but then you're in a weak position. All else is fluff.
You don't own the vanity web domain that is your name? You don't use it to advertise your self? So sad for you. What were you thinking? Maybe you don't belong in tech. That's a grand placement for a blog that shows off your achievements, your knowledge, your puissance, your value. I bought my name (though it's now a flat page and not a blog). Everybody I know did that. If you enter my proper name in Google, the first hit is the page I want you to see, and most of the entire rest of it is links to public sites where I aired my carefully considered forward thinking opinion - and a few hits are to a scary guy who shares my name but most obviously isn't me even though he lives near me (damn you FencePost!) I googled me just now, and that's how it is. Most of us did it several different ways. A domain is like ten bucks a year. Come on: if you can't invest that much in yourself, what's somebody going to think?
Hint: people are going to "Google" you before they offer you a job. The output associated with your name should be interesting, forward looking, and non-toxic. The Internet being what it is, you don't get to revoke output associated tightly with your name so if you're prone to stupid, racist, sexist or obscure arguments while posting sober or impaired, it's best if you use a pseudonym while doing that so you don't make yourself unemployable. It's probably best to have a general alt to use for your common activity, and post under your real name only in your most careful, sober and considered capacity. Unfortunately this guidance is far too late for me, but hopefully my strengths overcome my Internet shortcomings and my learning will educate others.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.
Agreed. Always use project launches to demonstrate a lack of team playing. Walking out the door three days before a release really gets the point across.
I have three friends who have successfully gone the route of starting with interviews and letting the rumors start. If you can secure an offer from another company for significantly more you can either jump ship or let your current place match the offer. One friend of mine got a pretty significant raise this way, after having to suffer with a pretty significant pay cut last year he's above his original salary then bump all of his coworkers up too. He wondered the point of the salary cuts, when the company gave in so quickly to pressure.
The only trick to it, is you have to be serious about taking the other offer. You must be in the mind set that you will walk away when deal doesn't meet your requirements, and it is important to think about what those requirements really are before you negotiate.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
It's true -- the respect MUST go both ways. If it doesn't you were screwed before you asked the question. I get the feeling the original topic poster is just seeking confirmation that he should look elsewhere... and as they say, it is easier to find a job when you already have one than not. So start looking.
Also, the company shows all the signs of immanent collapse. You should be looking for another job for that reason alone. I have seen a lot of companies failing in much the same ways. I once worked for a company who was paying their employees from investment capital when they were supposed to be running a stable business. I knew the money would run out before long... it did.
sounds like what you really need to do is a realistic appraisal of if and when these guys are going into the toilet. you're still on board because you are willing and able to do the grunt work of what appears to be a grab for salvation by a shaky enterprise. even if you get an agreement for more money, it won't last long if things go south. try to quietly line up something else and go w/ a nice resume enhancing title(they'll probably see that as getting over on you so it may just fly). more money from a weak company in this economy is a non starter.
Well, that certainly is an accountant's perspective. You have to look at it as an investment. Yes, it costs more to replace one guy who is bucking the status quo and demanding a raise. The time to ask for such a raise is after launch and after some money starts coming in, not as a form of blackmail to get the business through a critical phase. It turns the table on who is the "bad guy" in the negotiation, and besides, after things start flying, the employee probably has more leverage because management is probably up to their eyes in work. Anyway, the investment for the company is in showing everyone else what is going to happen to them unless they shut the fuck up and start working their asses off. That is probably worth 5-10x the extra expense you cite. I believe in rewarding my people for their hard work, not for their pitiful power plays.
cat
This is exactly how you handle this kind of thing.
The last time it happened to me (I was leading a small team who was asked to do more and more--and then kept getting flak for things falling through the cracks), I had my folks document--conservatively--how much time was being spent on tasks. It was a simple case of the management just plain not knowing how many intermediary steps there were between "do this" and "it's done."
I brought this material to a private meeting with my boss, explained our situation earnestly, and provided documentation of what we were doing. I made it very clear that we actually agreed that much of this stuff needed to get done, but that there physically wasn't enough man power or time to do it. I told him that some of my best people were looking to leave, and explained how much we--the company--would suffer if we let that happen. I then just basically said "Something's got to give. We need to take one of these projects and re-assign it or we need to be pulled off something, or we need more hands." I didn't bring money up at all, because money doesn't even mean anything when you physically cannot complete the tasks in front of you.
Anyway, it went well. He very honestly didn't know what was going on, and appreciated that I approached it from a "we have a problem, and here are some ideas on fixing it" standpoint, not a "this is bullshit and you fucking suck" standpoint (although that was the standpoint we often had amongst ourselves.).
If that doesn't work, if the response is "Well, buddy, I'm sorry, but that's life in the big city with the big boys in the big company, and this stuff has to get done" then remember that "this stuff" is not "your stuff." You're an employee. The owners need this stuff done; you need money. That's all. You have no relationship with "this stuff."
I agree that you should never threaten your employer. These are people, and even when they're incompetent, they're just normal folks. You pull a dick move and they aren't going to like it. You're shooting yourself in the foot. You might get the raise, but it also might be the last one you ever get. Being liked/respected by your organizational superiors makes things a lot easier in life. Don't be a dick. Be a team player.
What about the other way? Your boss has hired you to build a shed but by the time the project is done your building a mansion and they haven't giving you any more resources to do so. That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free.
The best way is to do some research on who is hiring some one to do what your doing and what they are offering or how many people they need to hire to do what your doing. 3 guys at 40k a year to replace you sure makes your 10% increase request look very reasonable.
There are plenty of really bad managers like mister myopic above. If his boss was any good and heard about it, it should mean instant firing and blackballing, because for a manager to fail his responsibilities (of finding and retaining the best people for the job he's tasked to make happen) this badly means we're dealing with an incompetent manager, and few things are more destructive to the company.
But such is not at all exclusive to IT. What makes it worse in IT, however, is that an awful lot of things happen "behind the scenes". It's a bit in the nature of the thing: If you do your job well everything goes without a hitch and since IT takes the form of supporting infrastructure, it's taken for granted.
I now have a "manager" of sorts, who cast my use of FreeBSD with X and an idiosyncratic choice for a WM for the desktop (allowed as a sign-on incentive by the owner/CEO) as failing social obligations in this small company. What he really was hinting at is that he's no idea what I'm doing with all those black background xterms and that this somehow was different from the white background application the rest of the php/css/html writers are using to do much the same thing. This somehow stands out despite the guy having no technical clue whatsoever. He is a pretty good salesman/customer care functionary/credit controller and has the good sense to double-check his promises before making them if he can. It's not a direct problem now but I'm keeping an eye on it and if it becomes one I'll be gone in an eyeblink.
But the point is that this not understanding also contributes to taking functioning IT infrastructure for granted, meaning that the people who make it happen don't get no respect because nobody notices their labours.
So, it behooves us to take up the slack where clueless management and brass are leaving it and report to them regularly that everything is fine and document very finely in language they can understand ("from a business perspective") just how much work it was that allowed this to be so. If you need to, you can add graphic explanations of what didn't happen, but would have had you not been there. Note that this is quite different from the usual "so many processes, so many records processed" tick box paperwork that perl was invented for to generate.
After establishing that, well, hopefully you have built a good relationship with the people who have paying authority and you can negotiate. Not necessairily Korben Dallas style, but negotiating is the name of the game. Harvard uni press has a couple good books on the theory, but for practice something like Jim Thomas' _Negotiate to Win_ is much more directly helpful.
I hope my story will serve as a cautionary tale. In 1995 I was hired as the junior person in a two-person IT department. My boss immediately began training me so I could cover for her during vacations and illnesses, and of course she covered for me.
In 2005 she left abruptly. Because her departure was unexpected I naturally began to do her job in addition to my own, just as I did when she took vacation. I also asked for a temporary salary bump to compensate me for the added responsibility, until either (a) I got a promotion to the senior position and someone was hired into the junion position, or (b) someone was hired to replace her. Because of our longevity we were both at the top of our grade in salary, but the bottom of her grade was above the top of mine, so a bump to the bottom of her grade would have meant an increase for me.
After six months of being rebuffed I concluded that they were happy with the status quo: they were getting what had historically been a two-person job at the price of one junior salary. I felt put upon, because I was no longer able to take vacation.
Here is where I made my mistake: I became obstinate, and declared that I would no longer do the jobs that had historically been the responsibility of the senior person. Within a week I was unemployed.
Be smarter than I was. There is some good advice in this thread, which I wish had been available to me.
Well you seem to totally lack any understanding about what it is like bootstrapping a business. Your characterization of them treating him as "disposable" really assumes a lot.
It could be that the bosses don't have anything extra to pay him or hire more people. They may be covering their personal expenses with the second they pulled on their homes.
It really depends on the situation, but waiting and asking for more money, or a bonus, when there is actually money available to fulfill such a request can be very advantageous. It really depends on the ownership of the company. Some people will reward loyalty with lots of cash, when the cash is available.
cat
I've seen some funny situations like this. Friend of mine was in a similar thing of they kept heaping on more work and refusing to raise his pay. They didn't lay him off, they just wouldn't pay him any more so he left. About 2 weeks later they were calling him, desperate. The new guy couldn't figure something out, the site was down, nothing was working, they were so screwed would he please, PLEASE come in and fix it? He literally laughed and said ok sure, for a couple grand up front. They said no, he hung up. They called him a few more times begging before finally, angrily, agreeing to pay a hefty consulting fee. He went in and fixed their problem and they tried to hand him a bunch more work and he said "Nope, see ya!"
They went out of business around a year later, due to I'm sure many other bad decisions.
It is silly to think employees will just take whatever you tell them to and should be happy for the privilege. No, the good ones will leave and will find other work. You can say "Well nobody is irreplaceable," and while that is a general global truth, it can be false in specific situations. You can find that someone you shuffle out was extremely important to your operation, and you cannot replace them in the time frame that is needed and for the price you can afford. As such part (or all) of your company may suffer performance wise or even fail.
New people are not immediately 100% productive, it takes time to learn systems (the more specialized the longer) and finding good people can be hard. In particular if you need someone who is willing to hit the ground running immediately, do a ton of work, etc you are usually talking a consultant and an expensive one at that, or a consulting firm and several consultants. You can spend a year's salary in a few weeks easy depending on what you need.
Well, technically, if you have to know, yes, I'm kinda irreplacable. Last time I checked there are about 5 people on this marble we call Earth that have the set of skills I can offer. Granted, there's also only a market for about 500, but you can probably see that there's not always "100 candidates per job". Sometimes, you have 100 jobs per candidate. Or, in other terms... I probably make more money than you. And I don't even have to play golf to get it.
But let's assume I'm replacable. Yes, you can fire me. And hire someone else. Who will need about 1-3 months to get "into" the job, depending on his skill level. If he is one of the few people who can pick up an IT job made for 4 people in just 1 month, expect to pay him WELL. After that time, he could become productive. After that time, though, he usually also finds out that you're essentially underpaying him, because he has the workload of four people to carry on a one person paycheck. So there's two possible outcomes: He's either also asking for more money or he finds something better without first asking for more money. Either way, you're again looking for someone who will, again, need 1-3 months to get into the game.
The idea of hire and fire has NEVER worked well in IT. IT ain't bricklaying or plumbing. It's not "you've done it once, you do the same here". You never do the same job in two different companies. Even if they happen to have essentially the same goals. You will never be able to "plug and play" someone. And you can utterly forget it when it comes to development.
In other words, yes, you can easily hire someone else. If you can handle the lost output of about a quarter. Always provided that you don't fall for someone only claiming to have the skills you want and HR being too stupid to weed out the duds.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
There are many forms of blackmail, beside the criminal type. All but saying "pay me or I'm gonna screw your launch by walking out" is a form of blackmail. Not criminal blackmail, but blackmail nonetheless. It is "give me money or suffer consequences". Perhaps "extortion" is a synonym you might find more palatable.
cat
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
And every single one of them wants triple what you're currently paying.
Because if they were more qualified and willing to work for the same amount, you'd be replacing your current employee.
Sure, who doesn't want 3x as much? In this economy, they will probably work for 75% of the prima donna they just fired, because after months of interviews, they know they aren't going to do much better, and some income is better than no income.
cat
If you don't know the actual name of the product you are actually not the one getting an of the work done. Maybe you are simply tracking hours and resources, and have an over blown sense of importance about the work you are doing. When I started in this field we had to at least be able to spell the products we were working with. Sorry to flame bait, but I have 'worked for' and with many people like yourself that we have simply put up wIth because management knows that technical resources that can actually move the football forward don't need to waste their time with (especially if the company is resource constrained) tracking fields on a Gantt chart.
The fact of the matter is that these are high-tech jobs that require a great deal of skill and knowledge.
I didn't see anything high tech in what he described. Making sure the programmer is on course, I need a new title for that? Give me a freaking break.
rd
Don't sell skilled tradespeople short. The ability to feel something's not right and avoid ripping out that unmarked underground gas main isn't something every backhoe operator has. Ditto for when it's safe to open-trench, and when you need to use a trench box. Or close-in work on buried electrical lines, with people standing next to the bucket.
"Unless the manager knows the company will go bankrupt if they fire you, they'll kill the company rather than admit you are irreplaceable."
This piece of wisdom is hard fought for and very valuable. Greenhorns sometimes think that managers will do whatever is in the best interest of the company, and that is far from true. It takes a half dozen projects before this can really be seen.
A better option is to plan on changing jobs at fixed intervals. Irreplaceable doesn't work because managers can talk up a project they killed long enough to find another job.
Whoa, in that case that 50k bucks guy should be glad he got out before that company collapse could be blamed on him. Nobody wants to be the one to turn off the lights in a company, you might have to admit that you're the one who broke their back.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.
In other words, he'd be perfect in management?
If he uses the project as leverage, he's cold and manipulative. If he doesn't, he's a fool, perfect candidate to be manipulated by management into increasingly many job duties, with no improvement in pay, or recognition for performance.
You think companies believe that being manipulative is bad?
Companies exist to manipulate their prospective customers to buy product from them
Old saying: if you have a broad back,there are a thousand people waiting to put a saddle on it. Start job hunting yesterday. Have some interviews, get some offers, go to your boss and tell him you will leave for a new job unless you get a decent raise and extra resources to do your job properly. Don't be nasty or demanding, just matter of fact. Remember, your company has NO loyalty to you, and you should have none to it. Your other option, if you don't mind being unemployed for awhile, is to go to your boss, politely tell him you want a raise and extra resources to do your job. If your request is denied, resign with 2 weeks notice immediately. If your boss then decides that you deserve the raise and resources, you could play some serious poker by increasing your demands. In other words, play hardball with these people. They will play it with you, so play it with them. Don't let them get the upper hand - ever. But you must be prepared to be fired or to resign and perhaps to be unemployed for a while. If you've got the financial resources, unemployment aint so bad! Good luck.
That's actually the big problem. And the more qualification you require (not because you think it's cute to have a triple-PhD changing your lightbulbs, but because they're utterly worthless if they don't have the qualification), the worse it gets.
As a former boss of mine said "There's three qualifications for this job: Good. Available. No pertinent convictions. Pick two. You can't get three." It's very true. For some jobs you just cannot find fitting people. And WHEN you finally get an applicant, you may rest assured that he fits into the "cute, but clueless" drawer. Oh, there's billions of people out there who can slap together a web page, and hey, they can do JavaScript. Why not apply for a job where they ask for intimate knowledge of IA32 assembler? Wikipedia said it's a programming language and, hey, programming is programming, right?
*facepalm*
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN.
Yes... but do the shareholders make more money if you reward them, or more money if you replace them with someone new, who will work their ass off for you, until the same thing happens?
Sure, they leave once they are not rewarded. But a company can keep doing this over and over again... for every new employee, it will be the first time, and they won't know ahead of time that there is no reward awaiting them at the end.
This isn't quite as nuts as it reads.
If you, dear reader, aren't really very good at your job and are paid well already, yeah, sit down and do your job. You're already paid fairly.
If, however the OP's assertions are true and he was hired for one job and is now doing 2 or 3 others capably and at a rate far below market, any manager that acts this way deserves a one way ticket to the street.
Look, realistically appropriate pay is whatever is reasonable to the parties involved. If you get a genius right out of high school who can do the work of three senior guys for peanuts, you're not going to pay him $150k. Period. He's thrilled to get a lot less. If you've got a guy who is doing $120,000 worth of work and wants to make more than $40,000, you're a flat dumbass if you don't give him a raise. He'll probably be thrilled to get $50,000 and you're still $70,000 in the black.
FWIW, been there done that. Asked for a well justified raise and didn't get it. I think they offered me 8% or so. I left and doubled my salary.
Honestly, if you're that good have a casual conversation and feel the company out. If they're not going to do anything for you, leave. By the way, dear manager, that's the equivalent of firing you, and bad managers are the #1 reason people leave.
Except (probably) there is no contract between the two parties that limits either side's obligations.
It's not extortion, because the employer wants a service from the employee, the nature of buying a service from someone ordinarily means the employee will receive cash compensation, and the employee has a right to specify what price they will demand, to do business.
Maybe not. Maybe you were not advertising for the position at the time.
If any person in an organization is completely irreplaceable at any point in time, someone in management needs to be disciplined harshly, for allowing that to happen.
Teamplayer? He is the team.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Greetings and Salutations...
Haw! I KNEW that when I wrote that line, I was going to get a response like this. Please note that my point was VERY NARROWLY focused on the controls of the backhoe...not the job as a whole. I have a great deal of respect for the skilled trades-person, as they can be craftsmen of the first order. I have seen (and happily paid) heavy equipment operators who have been able to manipulate their machines with the delicacy and accuracy of a surgeon's scalpel. And, since I have a fair number of hours on a backhoe myself, I am VERY aware of the challenges of that sort of task.
However...to my broader point...how did those artists GET to that point? Partly from a natural gift, I am sure...but MOSTLY through years of seat time manipulating those levers and moving that earth. I am also QUITE sure that every one of those artists will have a story or two of when they were a newbe, and, how they produced some pretty impressive disasters by digging in the wrong place, or mis-judging the stability of their tool. We are all there at one time....and it takes time to get that level of skill.
Regards
Dave Mundt
YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
Gotta agree with this.
Any time the business is cutting jobs around you while expanding, management's already gone horribly wrong.
Just try for a better job title and get your responsibilities (job description sorted out).
If you're useful, hardworking, and not a total douche, you'll always be able to find another job.
- tensions in our lives that are attacking our minds, unite themselves together to make our consciousness blind - op'ivy
When people say "not a team player" in this context what it really means is that they won't overwork themselves in order to increase the value for equity holders. In other words, they aren't willing to give you what you haven't paid for.
Unless you have a huge equity stake then don't bother being a "team player". Because your "coach" will cut you from the team without a second thought. One way loyalty isn't loyalty.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
(1)
Every time your boss hands you some new responsibility ask him "which of my current responsibilities should I push to the bottom of my prioritized list so that I can take on this new responsibility?" Be persistent... he needs to provide an answer. Explain that you can only make a small number of tasks (1-3) your "top priority" and everything else will either get worked on sporadically or fall by the wayside entirely. Force him to prioritize... that's his job. Be sure to get this in writing (email).
(2)
Learn to tactfully say "no". I do this ALL THE TIME at my job. I explain that my primary duty is too important to the company for me to get distracted by some additional work. I simply refuse to be assigned the work. This only works if you are really good at your core duties and are not easily replaceable. It also help if you generate revenue. (Suck on that, developers).
(3)
Start looking RIGHT NOW for the job you really want. When you find it, drop this one like the stinking bag of shit it is. Life is too short to hate your job... you could get brain cancer next year and die within 18 months... why spend your time between now and then being miserable?
Agree. You are almost always in a better position to negotiate with a perfect stranger than you are with existing terms. Case in point, I was being paid 65K (near entry level) for about 1 year and took on many more responsibilities for the company. I received roughly a 10% increase. Which, comparatively speaking, is a big raise for your average clock puncher. I left the company and negotiated a 100k position. That's a 54% raise. Not something my previous employer would have done. I knew the position he was in, and he was willing to replace me with two other individuals, and didn't want a guy who valued himself at 54% raises on a yearly basis. And yes, similar sweatshop conditions with company A. The new company, I work 40-50 hours a week (instead of the 60-70 prior). Corner office, and they give me a big hammer and anvil. My answer: Quit graciously.
In this economy, they will probably work for 75% of the prima donna they just fired, because after months of interviews, they know they aren't going to do much better, and some income is better than no income.
You seem to have a rather imaginative idea of how hard it is for skilled people to find jobs in "this economy". For better or worse -- certainly worse for society, and most likely worse for you personally -- recessions do not have equal impact on all classes of workers.
Unless you're lucky enough to have the dream boss, they are used to paying you $X and anything they pile on top is just part of what they perceive as part of your job. After all, it's just 40 hours a week, right? Even if it's not even 40 hours a week any more and the responsibilities are far more complex. You're trapped by perception.
So just use this to add to your resume and go looking for a new job. Asking for a raise once you have a new job offer is always bad. Even if you get one the well is completely poisoned. You could ask for a raise before you go looking for a job, but you run the risk they'll terminate you on the spot. That's your call.
When your qualifications require things that aren't required for the job, it's easy to find that everyone is unqualified.
eg: Requiring post-secondary education for a job which neither legally or even to save face requires it. This usually applies to almost all IT positions.
eg #2: Requiring a mix of experience and formal education that is extremely unlikely. Such as requiring university level education including classes explaining .net products, and 10 years IT experience.
eg #3: Requiring multidisciplinary education/experience for a single discipline job. For example, requiring java/php/assembler/ee knowledge to maintain a smaller company's servers.
eg #4: Requiring zero past convictions when your job neither legally requires it and neither do your customers, such as expecting the screwdriver geek assembling your systems to have never been convicted of a sex crime, so you don't even consider the guy that was caught peeing in a fountain when he was 16 and drunk.
I could go on, I've seen it all and it's idiotic. You want these things? Be prepared to pay the $200k a year that goes along with it. Or be prepared to get the guy who shows up to work every other Wednesday.
Companies need to start considering every resume they receive that passes the absolute most basic requirements for the job, and then sort them by likelihood of being a quality employee. Then you get good labour at a decent rate, and you have more than 2 candidates to choose from.
I've worked for years in the ICT business, without getting serious compensation.
I've felt the evolution of "love ICT" to "like ICT" to "work in ICT" to almost "hate to work in ICT" ...
Maybe a good question is .. how to get rid of the stress, the burnout and the depression added to it?
The best advice I can give in this; don't wait to long to jump ships when it gets ackward or you'll be the victim of it.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
" That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free. " That shows that you let yourself be managed. Managing is all about manipulation, so yes management is manipulative. If you are hired to build a shed, and by the end you build a mansion, it's because you chose to. I think it's too late for a raise now. Stick to the other suggestions. Next time, as soon as you are told to do something you were not hired for, then ask for a raise. In the end, they are supposedly paying you what you were hired for, and if you are going to do something else, they should pay for that too.
No kidding.
And given the original poster's words, it would appear this is a "small company". Chances are he was initially hired as a stand in or for a limited role/limited responsibility, and they hit hard times. He was hired as an "Online Content Writer" (whatever the fuck that is) and is, in essence, a "tech writer".
This is a job the vast majority of technically inclined people could perform - yet not everyone (nevermind the majority of tech writers) can come close to hacking the other responsibilities he's been able to put under his belt. If he's not gotten any raise at all, chances are he's "vastly underpaid", and there's little chance they could find someone to fill his shoes at all - never mind anywhere near his salary.
I've seen these job postings. They go something like this (I'm sure you've seen them, too):
Wanted: IT Professional
Must be proficient in Microsoft Office, Visio, Sharepoint, Powerpoint, etc.
Successful candidate will be responsible for routine documentation of our entire product line. Weekly articles for online publication will also be necessary.
Must have 2-3+ years administering Windows desktops and Linux servers. Must be comfortable with the full range of server maintenance tasks.
Familiar with phone, fax, etc. systems.
Candidate must be comfortable with the occasional off-hour call.
Successful candidate will spend the majority of his time in a customer-facing environment. We are looking for a people person!
Salary: $35-40k with generous medical benefits!*
*which you will have to pay for yourself out of your salary. Expect 50-80h work weeks and, between the tech support and meetings, you won't have enough time for your core responsibilities. But we won't disclose this; you'll have to relocate, first.
Only desperate people apply for these jobs; competent people will be looking for too much levity: either in pay, or professional (and personal) courtesy. As a result, they won't be hired.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The fact of the matter is that these are high-tech jobs that require a great deal of skill and knowledge.
And it repeatedly hits me in the face like a brick when I see that people outside IT not only don't realize this, but think it's easy. "Could you have this done by $time?" -> "No. That'll take $time x3, if I'm doing nothing else. How about $later_time?"
Yet, if the coin is flipped, I have seen "support professionals" (of the higher grade range, which also do other things), dept. managers, business managers, clerical/accountant types, and the like all replaced in function by IT folks. On a couple occasions I've seen IT people shore up the accountant position in addition to their duties.
IT is Hard - and such a statement is akin to saying "Engineering is Hard". I'd not want an EE anywhere near bridge design, network/system design, or the like. Maybe municipal water system design. However: the point is that these are not mutually inclusive disciplines any more than astronauts and brain surgeons are. Similar starting point (necessary "infrastructure" capacity within the individual), different endpoint.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
If you are going to interpret this as "give me money or suffer consequences", and saying that is extortion, then almost every single situation involving money exchanging hands is extortion. Saying "I'll work for you if you pay me" almost always also means "I won't work for you if you don't pay me." That is negotiation.
No raise means they're paying you less each year, due to inflation.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
"And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN."
In a severe recession the employer can always find someone better and cheaper than you and there is nothing you can do about it. Outsourcing started this but other professions are being treated the same and even secure jobs such as teachers and policemen are turning into because of recession related budget cuts. In Louisiana all the new teaching hires are flown in from South America and this is happening while 300,000 teachers are being laid off nationwide.
The only light at the end of the tunnel are the managers who do this will find their good workers leaving when the economy rebounds (it may not in the U.S.) . Owning you're own business is the only way to avoid this. You will be disappointed leaving I.T. as everyone is being replaced by cheaper foreign, H1B1, and even the 20 million unemployed. More than likely they will have years of experience in the field you want to get into.
Start your own business if you have the means to do it.
Just remember,you are always replaceable when at work and bust your butt off. The corporations are the ones calling the shots for the time being.
http://saveie6.com/
It could be that the bosses don't have anything extra to pay him or hire more people.
In which case the business is likely going down, and you are better of finding that out through a raise-negotiation, then by showing up to a locked down office with a "closed due to bankrupcy" note on the door...
If you go about a raise-negotiation politely (dont start with demanding X percent), it can end in three ways:
1) No, sorry we simply cant afford it, even though you took over much more work
2) No, and pack up your stuff, you are fired
3) Yes, figures to be discussed
One could argue that in cases 1 and 2, you are better of getting out of there anyway, in case 1 you might soon be out of a job anyway, in case 2 it is very doubtfull you would want to work for people like this.
this all is assuming that you are paid under 'market-value' for what your tasks actually are, so it is probably very wise to look around a bit first. It will help you make a well-funded argument for the raise, and a realistic demand, and will help you find a job much faster when shit goes pear-shaped
People, what a bunch of bastards
Its an act of sabotage. Whether its legal or not is up to the courts. Even if that manger sounded like a jerk it works both ways. Remember the employer has a right to terminate as well if it is unhappy with the relationship or work. I would fire such an employee even if what the employee did was legal or in a verbal contract. A raise is negotiable, and so is determining the value of work he or she provides. However, if its being used at that particular time it certainly is not. The same is true for any vendor or any other business I want to deal with. There are many sharks out there.
It's fun to think of such things at work but I would not advise anyone to do it unless you know what you are doing.
http://saveie6.com/
A raise is negotiable, and so is determining the value of work he or she provides. However, if its being used at that particular time it certainly is not.
Oh, it is most certainly negotiable at all times. And at 1 month before launch of something, the work being done is much more valuable, and so the scales are tipped highly in favor of the employee, for any negotiation. In other words, it is the perfect time.
Whereas, if the employee had waited until a week after the launch, for that negotiation, the scales would be tipped highly against the employee.
So the logical thing for the employee to do is demand the raise a month before launch, and get the raise.
The logical thing for the employer to do is to award them the raise (assuming it costs them less for the near term than it would cost to replace them).
As soon as the launch is done with, the logical thing for the employer to do is demand a meeting with the employee, and re-negotiate their salary, based on the new value of their work, since the launch is no longer imminent.
In other words, they effectively got a raise 1 month before launch, and then get a drop in compensation afterwards, since there's no 'imminent project'
Also, the new salary might be less than the original salary was, to offset the increased amount that was paid to them, during that prior month.
Whats the name of your company? I am sure many slashdotters can and are willing. The only jobs I see that are hiring are fast food and grocery stores where I am at. There are many entry level college students as well that can not find a job. If you are willing to train you can find some very motivated people fresh out of school.
http://saveie6.com/
I am not a lawyer but I was under the impression that its illegal to lower someone's salary after hiring unless its agreed upon in writing. Even that is very shaky legal grounds.
What you say is true but the value is not worth it after the launch. It is short term only and reason to be fired. I would document all the work I had done and ask for a raise after the launch. A good employer will see this and it is unethical to backstab. I do admit his employer does not sound like a good one. You would be mad if your employer lowered your salary after finding out that the economy is bad or demand 80 hours a week when they know you are hurting financially.
People do this and its a pet peeve for many managers. Most will not want to do business again with such employees as they will have too much power and can do fast one on you when you least expect it.
http://saveie6.com/
I'm not sure what part of the economy you're located in, but in the Bay-Area tech sector, it's hard enough to find tech employees that companies are still paying recruiting bonuses, and a few that had ditched them during the recession have reinstituted them.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I even got a semi-decent salary: All I had to do was write a coherent letter de-constructing the duties described to job-roles... If the company is sticks to their guns on cheaping out - stay away.
Dear Sirs, I am responding to your advertisement seeking a technical expert. Your ad lists 24 required and desired skills. These skills imply that the person you are seeking is an expert in Cisco Routers, Windows System administration, database administration, and AIX. These positions pay X,Y;Z respectively (link to last years pay report).
If you are still reading at this point, your skill list looks like
*numbered list of skills from advertisement
I am able to do *whatver skills you are expert in* at an expert level, medium skills at a medium level, and the rest of that crap at a remote monkey level.
As I would love to work for your shitty ass company, & I can do the job of X - may I suggest it may make more sense for your company to hire several people to fill these responsibilities? An individual who can do all the positions listed will cost (sum of average salaries linked above x2) and will both cost your company more & create a larger single point of resource failure.
If you are interested in my services as an excellent (Whatever you think you would want to do at the company.)as part of an effecient IT team, please contact me at X
Meanwhile he pockets the other 3%.
What about the other way? Your boss has hired you to build a shed but by the time the project is done your building a mansion and they haven't giving you any more resources to do so. That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free.
That is the very definition of what a manager is expected to do. They are hired to maximize return on investment. If a manager doesn't save the company at least as much as his/her own salary, then he/she isn't doing his/her job, or his/her job needs to be eliminated. In many cases, doing that job means eliminating inefficiencies, but it almost always means pushing their employees as far as they will allow.
-=Geoskd
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Businesses tend to reward incompetent, psychopathic managers. At my job they require off the clock work, regularly screw up the pay checks, allow overt bullying and cook up reasons to fire people. It's not the only place I've worked which behaves in that fashion, but in this economy businesses think they can get away with it. So they do counting on the employees not to do anything about it. My manager just about shit a brick when he caught me clocking in the way that state law requires. The money didn't show up on my paycheck and I assume that as soon as the payroll discrepancy form goes through that I'll be fired. But damn it, I'm going to love owning a yacht when they're forced to settle with my attorney.
Actually depending upon the company they often times end up being rewarded for preventing a lot of costly benefits from being earned. Sucks, but it's true, and it's definitely not something that a company with any potential at all does. Companies that cost cut to increase their margin invariably end up being bought by somebody else. And because there's a lot of idiots out there that believe in growth, companies never really go under anymore and consequently incompetent managers can spin it as something positive to be bought out. Rather than just being a few more customers and maybe some cheap equipment for the new owners.
And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN.
It's not how hard you did or did not work, nor how competent you are that elicited that response. Incidentally, you would get that type of a response from pretty much all but the most extraordinary managers. You got that response because of how you approached the problem. There isn't a manager in the world who wants a self-important egomaniac on their staff. That kind of employee is a real massive waste of time to handle, and when you start talking about wasting your managers time, you are talking about your own time *plus* their time, so the cost adds up fast. Any manager who didn't severely punish that behavior fast would be up to their ass in trouble from every single employee they have. There isn't any employee in any company who isn't worth more to the company than they are being paid, otherwise the company wouldn't retain them at all. Taking advantage of that situation as though it only applied to you will get you removed fast so that you can no longer threaten the company. As a Manager, if I ever get wind that an applicant ever pulled that kind of stunt, their application would go in the shit-can so fast it would leave a crater.
On the other hand, if you came to me and stated, as others here have suggested, that there is a problem that I need to be aware of (Morale problems are very real problems too...), then my reaction is entirely different. Perhaps the company does not have the resources to accommodate your request, but more than likely something can be done. It all depends on your approach to the discussion. If you are hostile, then the conversation and reaction will be hostile. If your approach is a friendly, lets-solve-this-together approach, then the result will be in the same spirit.
-=Geoskd
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
1. Most bosses would rather drop an employee rather than give in to demands. This is management 101 and why we need unions. So do not threaten anything and don't stop doing work.
2. Ask for training. It'll cost your boss and you'll learn something. But don't do it if you have to commit to a minimum contract term.
3. When you have learnt enough from your new role (but before you learn too many bad habits) start looking for another job. Then leave. Don't stay at your current job - they may offer you more money to stop you leaving but they will always see it as betrayal and kick you later on.
4. If your employer had any respect for you they would have automatically offered a promotion to you - they did not - so you should leave.
Only desperate people apply for these jobs; competent people will be looking for too much levity: either in pay, or professional (and personal) courtesy. As a result, they won't be hired.
You are incorrect, and your salary range is way high. This job is targeted at India, and they would jump at it and ask "how high?"
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I used to work at a company that used to tell me that 'they aren't about roles or titles'. You would have a title so generic and understated that honestly no one could figure out what you do. I was able to leave this job for a 25% salary increase because my responsibilities never matched my title. Companies use this as a ploy so that they do not have to pay you in many cases what you are worth.
Which is: "Don't let go of what you got ahold of until you get ahold of something else with the other hand."
Get another offer before even hinting that you want a raise. Then you're in a good negotiating position. Otherwise all you have is an empty threat to start looking, and you've clued them in to start looking for your replacement.
I owned several Case backhoes - 580, 680, 780, and I never had a "disaster", even when hopping into this to keep excavating a basement and loading the dumptrucks while the "real" operator went out to lunch. (I had been using the transit to guide him as to depth, etc).
He came back from lunch, and his first shovelful, he whacked the side of the next dumptruck.
Within a year, he had managed to flip it. Some people need supervision, no matter what their skill level.
Nope, I am freelancer. Seen enough companies where the most incompetent had the highest positions. This cannot be coincidence.
If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story.
No, it would not be. It's a different way of saying the same thing: "I am overworked (you can stick your "utilized" buzzword someplace dark and euphemistic) and if you do not rectify the situation either by making me have less work or more money, I'm out of here because it's not worth it." Unless your manager is a complete fucking idiot he will be able to tell the difference between "I want a raise" to "I'm out of here if you don't fix this": absolutely nothing.
It's all about how you say it, are you in it for the long haul? Do they know that? Are you polite, willing to be flexible? Are you bringing the problem to THEIR attention with some suggested solutions and letting them decide?
Forget polite and willing to be flexible, all that is required is that you are professional. It is not professional to allow yourself to be overloaded. It is not professional to allow a company to take advantage of you.
The simple truth is that any company which values you will not do this to you in the first place. If they overwork you they will offer you something up front. Your manager's job is to know what you can handle and to keep you busy, not to burn you out. Unless, of course, they're just trying to use you up, and don't give a shit about you. In those circumstances you can either do something about it or suffer.
The business is using his need for currency as leverage to force him to do several jobs, why not use their need as leverage to get paid for doing those jobs? Some misplaced sense of loyalty?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What about the other way? Your boss has hired you to build a shed but by the time the project is done your building a mansion and they haven't giving you any more resources to do so. That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free.
That's certainly a possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that management hires people expecting them to grow and take on more duties, then ask for help when they need it. The difference is what happens when you go to management and ask for help. Your manager may honestly not know what you're doing or what you can handle. Really, it's the adult thing to do.
Still need a resume to get pass HR and all the other BS that blocks you from getting to real tech people at some jobs.
Forgive me if I sound biter. I was once like you. Here is my story and I hope it helps.
I have always been a fast learner, and have always been able to take on greater and greater responsibilities at companies. My employers have always loved me. But raises where always very hard to get (if ever) and I was always paid below what I knew I was worth.
The only way I was able to get what I wanted was to move to other companies, and eventually to contract development.
You might get a raise if you ask for more money, but on the odd chance that you get it, three things will happen:
1) They will feel that they are paying you appropriately for the 70h/wk you're working, even if they give you a very small raise
2) Whatever this raise is, you may consider it an advance on your next [n] raises. In other words, in two to five years, you will be back to what you would have made if you'd never gotten this raise in the first place.
3) They will likely start looking for someone less bothersome to fill your position, especially after the launch when they don't need the massive support hours, and you're now getting paid "too much" for the reduced effort, 50 hour weeks you'll have.
Again, there's a one in a million shot (okay, maybe one in 1,000) that you'll get a title, a pay bump, and if things pick up a new staff below you and you'll be headed for an ownership position or at least toward a spot in the senior staff. IMHO, I would make sure that you're in the market before you make the play.
FWIW, if you're really good, it's worth floating your resume on all the major employment boards. Many HR teams troll them to see if their employees are looking around. They may bring up the conversation first, at which point, you can simply state your concerns about the additional work. They may come around.
I know people for whom this has happened: a cousin was contacted by a headhunter, and ended up with a 25% raise - completely unsolicited, my brother in law was disappointed with the organization and lack of expertise in his dept, he floated his CV on monster and his dept head called him the next day. He was honest that they didn't have the expertise to perform their mission, and had good examples. They made him the group leader, moved staff to another area, and let him re-start the group.
Now, I'm going to lend a cautionary tale to this. I've had several employees over the years. Some have been disappointed with raises and/or salary offers. With two exceptions, I would have happily let them find other jobs. I have found that the top 5-8% of employees are truly independent. The next 30% are useful if carefully watched and managed. The rest do nothing more than provide CO2 to the plants and add heat to the building in the winter. Remember that, in the world of business, you are worth about 1/2 of the revenue you can GUARANTEE to produce EVERY YEAR (if you're in marketing or management, that drops to at most 5%, or half of a 10% "commission"). The rest of the revenue gets eaten up by G&A, mkt, overhead, taxes, and profit. If the last one in line - profit - doesn't stay significantly positive, then nothing else matters. Business isn't a jobs program. Personally, I give out bonuses twice a year based on production and profit. I'm too small to guarantee large fixed salaries.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Just hiring people for shit like housework has made it abundantly clear to me that if you can hire someone trustworthy who does a half-assed job you have achieved 75% of all you could ever hope for. When I left Texas the snatch I paid to clean my apartment failed to do so and caused me to incur a substantial debt, for example. She was a real 0% employee. But she came highly recommended by the social community in which I participated. Clearly, hiring help is not easy.
I never pad my resume with bullshit. Consequently my resume probably gets discarded often, or liberally ignored. It's not like the job offers I get from having it posted online are ever really something I can do, but headhunters don't care. But on the flip side, I always progress from a phone interview to an in-person one. At this point I have the luxury of seeking quality over quantity, so I don't have any compulsion to lie. I can only imagine, however, what it's like when you're trying to support a family and your credit is maxing out.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I'm used to being on the other side of the table. Here are a couple of things people need to understand:
I may be paying you all I can. In which case, there are all kinds of non-monetary things on the table. Days off, vacation, title, etc...
I'm going to ask you what I'd like you to do, and expect you to tell me what you need to do it. More money, someone to take over task X, etc... Tell me. Whatever I'm asking you to take over is probably as important or more important than task X.
Asking for more money isn't a firing level offense by itself. Lots of posts say asking for more money will get you fired. Not true. What will is asking for money and then telling coworkers, acting like you are on a one man strike, or not getting your job done to your usual level. Everyone wants more money. Management gets that. Asking for more money, then copping an attitude doesn't work.
Understand your golden handcuffs -- there's a reason business owners spring for health insurance, options, 401Ks with vesting, etc... If you have benefits that are worth more than your pay (i.e. wife with cancer on company health care or ownership options), don't be shocked when that is pointed out to you... and be very scared if you are not reminded. I had one guy with $28,000 in 401K matching up in six months tell me he'd quite if he didn't get the raise. Remember, sometimes you are worth more fired.
-- $G
There are many forms of blackmail, beside the criminal type. All but saying "pay me or I'm gonna screw your launch by walking out" is a form of blackmail. Not criminal blackmail, but blackmail nonetheless. It is "give me money or suffer consequences". Perhaps "extortion" is a synonym you might find more palatable.
The X makes it sound cool.
I am not a lawyer but I was under the impression that its illegal to lower someone's salary after hiring unless its agreed upon in writing. Even that is very shaky legal grounds.
It may be uncommon for obvious reasons, under normal circumstances where the employee had not decided to play dirty it would normally be considered unfair, but as long as there is not an employment contract involved, an employer is legally empowered to lower their employee's salary, whenever they want, as long as they provide notifications before the work is performed, and they pay an amount that causes the total paid during the pay period to be at least as much as minimum wage.
No consent from the employee is required for an employer legally reduce the rate of pay.
The most elegant approach that I was able to devise was to ask for a new title and job description to reflect all of the new responsibilities. In my case the IT department was reduced by 50% and I absorbed a lot of my previous boss' responsibilities, in addition to responsibilities from other departments. By taking the initiative to ask for those things I let the HR department know that I knew I was doing a lot more than was in my job description, and I wasn't being officially recognized for it. HR departments are notoriously ambivalent about changing job titles because doing so is a tacit acknowledgement that the position needs to be compensated the market rate for whatever the job title is.
I believe that asking for a job title change is the most subtle, "safe" way to bring up the disparity of your situation with the rest of the organization. By doing that you get to ask what is probably really on your mind.. "Are you going to pay me what I'm really worth?" If they flat out deny you even a title change, you know you're completely replaceable, or at least HR believes you are. If you get a title change and new job description you are in a better position to ask for a raise next year to reflect your increased responsibilities, and your proven track record of meeting them. In my case, I was given a raise along with the title change.
If money is really important to you and you get a title change but no raise, the new title puts you in a better position to find a new job. When I was sorting things out with my company I put my resume online just in case. Despite deciding to stay put where I am, I still get calls from recruiters a couple of times a month. I highly suggest posting your resume on an appropriate forum and responding to a couple of job postings. Figure out for yourself whether or not the market has any interest in you. The odds are that if you are competent enough to pick up the slack of a down sizing, you are worth significantly more than you're currently making. I've had good luck with Dice.com.
No, I think what he's saying is that the strategy reeks of extortion. If I were managing someone and I gave them more responsibilities and they said, "That's not part of my job. If you want to make it part of my job, then I want [some kind of additional compensation]." then I'd respect that. It's a negotiation.
However, if I had the sense that the employee specifically waited until 1 month before launch and said, "More money or I quit and leave you high and dry." then I might very well fire him on the spot (unless I really couldn't, in which case I'd wait).
I wouldn't use the term "team player", but the point is you can't trust people who try to extort money out of you, and I don't want employees that I can't trust.
And as a consultant...
I'm sorry, but this is not the way to start a post. No one with any sense will listen to you after that.
Also, "talk is cheap"
Go ahead, hire that guy that knows all the technologies there on his CV, see what happens.
(I'm not complaining about the parent, rather, the GP the parent quotes)
how long until
1 month to launch? Sure, no problem, we'll give you a 10k per year raise. And then we'll show you the exit a week or two after launch.
Sounds like a good way to end up having to contract with the guy for 5-10 times his previous wage to make inevitable changes and fixes.
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
Oh, I get it. Anyone can just jump in and take over with no loss of time and resources. Then whatcha waitin' for? Nothing can possibly go wrong!
I am not a crackpot.
I think you have said it pretty well. I might add that in the time leading up to and after you do ask for/receive the raise/help/other you had better be seen working hard. All the time. If he spends half his time socializing, surfing the internet, and generally being unproductive....asking for anything isn't going to fly.
I've seen this pretty often. Someone thinks that they deserve a raise because they are overworked. Yet, they spend 20-25 hours every week clearly not working. This does not go unnoticed by the management and will certainly hurt your chances of getting what you want. Obviously you can take short breaks here and there, but make sure reality reflects your statement.
Build your resume (hopefully with a focus on what you want to be doing long term), and dump your current employer once you get a better opportunity. And you will, if you focus on the right business / IT combination. The economy will eventually get better. And besides, it will take you a lot longer to realize your true potential in earnings if you stay with the same company.
Just bank your experience, maybe have them just change your title to reflect your new role. The experience in your new role will pay off far more than a small raise now.
... probably true (the part about the post being intended for India). However, the company then deserves whatever it gets. Last company I worked for had the bright idea of outsourcing to Wipro. Ended up costing them far more than they bargained for. That company would lie through its teeth about the skills of its 'consultants' and 'programmers'. I had trouble feeling sorry for my company, as they'd instituted a hiring freeze in the US and Canadian offices in order to try and save money outsourcing. The lost productivity cleaning up after the outsourced peoples' mess obliterated any savings they had hoped to get.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
You call that a job?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
They'll notice - but only after it's too late. Too late for the employee, for the company, and last but not least for the poor bastard who has to clean up the mess. But not too late for the PHB who made the cost cuts, got his bonus and moved on.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Decide what you want to do with your life. Update your resume accordingly. Start the search for your new job. In the meanwhile, keep your head down, assuming you need to be employed. Your present employer is not worth a tinker's dam, or they would at least be improving your compensation. When you eventually submit your resignation, if they throw money at you, smile politely and leave.
good luck.
Or if you have enough saved quit right now. I've never been fired. I quit 4 jobs in my career and every time during my exit interview they asked why I was leaving and I told them it was because of money. Of course it was a bunch of the usual things like everyone here complains about but in fact it's always money. If they offered me a million bucks I would have put up with their crap. Then they always ask if there is anything they could do to keep me. I told them no. They would always ask what the offer was and I would be honest and tell them. They always said they would match it and some said they could beat it. I told them no because I didn't have to threaten the new employer with leaving just to get a raise and obviously you think I'm worth the new offer which means you know you were underpaying me to begin with and I don't want to work for a company like that.
The point is you have to leave. If you threaten to leave just to get a raise you will be labeled as a troublemaker and someone to get rid of at the first opportunity. Also you now know what kind of people they are and how could you work for them?
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
I had exactly this happen. In the space of about two years, I went from doing phone support for Windows users and running a small LAN in the office to running (and building, from scratch) a multi-state VPN based WAN running mission critical functions (like cash registers). I was prepared, and it went smoothly. So smoothly, nobody noticed how difficult a task it was. Came annual review time, and I got a cost of living raise. I looked my boss right in the eye and told him, in no uncertain terms, that I deserved more, and why, and that I'd be updating my resume if I didn't get more. A few weeks later, I got more, the biggest percentage raise in the company's history.
Some important points:
Remain calm, polite and professional.
Explain your position in an objective manner, as in, "this is what I was hired for, and these are the specific duties that have been added since then."
Refer to any past performance reviews that have been positive, especially ones that reference the new, added duties.
And most important of all, and I cannot overemphasize this:
WORK FOR REASONABLE PEOPLE.
If you are concerned that your employer will respond negatively to you asking for a raise in a reasonable manner, with objective evidence to support your deserving it, you are probably right. And that means you are not working for reasonable people. And reasonable people will not take care of you.
Loyalty is a two way street, always. If it does not go in both directions, it's not loyalty, it's subsevience.
> If a manager doesn't save the company at least as much as his/her own salary, then he/she isn't doing his/her job, or his/her job needs to be eliminated.
No, if the manager doesn't MAKE the company at least as much as his/her own salary....
Trying to calculate savings is not only stupid, it leads to short-term "savings" that cost more in the long run.
Seriously, I would bring it to their attention the workload increase you've recieved. That isn't just a couple of things thrown on you here and there. You've been given a ton of new responsibilities, and they've definitely changed what you were initially hired to do. At the very LEAST, you should be asking for a raise. I would likely ask for an assistant and a new title as well. Good luck to them to get somebody to instantly replace you and learn all that is needed in the timeframe they so obviously are looking at.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
Stop being so competent. They probably won't give you a raise, might give you a new title, but assuredly will continue to pile on work until you stop doing it so well. Blow a few deadlines and hose a couple servers. If that doesn't help, get sick for a while.. gotta be careful and stay just useful enough not to get fired, but dam man.. keep it up and you will be the whipping boy for every management brainfart until you crumble. Be careful about scattering resume's.. when that gets upwind its all downhill... especially in a company who appears to believe you're bought in. Stop The Insanity and take it a little easier.. seriously..
Nobody questions that. But when I say "intimate knowledge" of IA32, I do expect the person to know the quirks and flag side effects of certain instructions. I do expect him to know what registers are implicitly used in instructions like loadsb and rep. I hope we can agree that I cannot use someone who is basically a web designer with some half-assed knowledge of JavaScript who looks at me blankly when I mention the stack or flag registers (or registers at all).
In general, yes, I agree. Imperative language is imperative language. I have no problem hiring someone fluent in Pascal or C++ when I need someone for C#. Yes, he won't know the details of some libraries and certain language quirks, but he can be productive. But I can't put someone who has a passing knowledge in JavaScript to dissect and analyze self modifying disassembled asm code.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Hiring is about the worst thing you can be challenged with in a company. When you climb the company ladder, you're eventually challenged with it, at the very least if HR isn't completely incompetent they will sooner or later find out that they can't assess an applicant's knowledge well enough to make that decision and they will come to you to "take a look at your prospective new coder".
And then you're sitting there. Reading resumes. Some of them mighty impressive. Some of them rather plain. Some of them with more design than the average ad. Some with less than the average throw-away circular. And, not so oddly, the latter ones are the ones that I want to read in more detail. If someone can get a job without spewing ads like an Amway salesman, he is either really GOOD because he gets jobs without trying hard, or he is very desperate because he cannot get jobs 'cause he gets overlooked with his bland resume. Both conditions that are to my liking.
So yes, the more flashy your resume, the more likly it's gone to the waste bin unread, at least if you're applying with me. But I'm the odd man out here, usually HR loves those flashy high-gloss multicolor-gimmicky resume folders the size of your average phone book. For me, if you can't be assed to think what I might want from you and put those skills on a single page, I can't be assed to read through your 10 page resume. Gimme what I want to read or be gone. If you cannot tell me what you can do in a terse, snappy way, you cannot give me a sensible status update later when you're working for me either. We're in a business where speed matters. You will also notice that the tone is quite rough and we do not spend much time on pleasantries. I don't need a sweettalker and I have no use for a yes-man. I need someone who can tell me in no uncertain terms why my idea does not fly if it does not. It's not "I think this might not be a good idea, I think we should take into acount...". It's "This is crap. Reason: a, b, c, d".
There's a reason why I'm one of the "old" people here. You need a good stomach to survive this here for long, and you have to have a quite big frustration potential because whatever you do will be flushed down the loo in half a year because it's obsolete. And pay is usually not THAT good to sit it out for the money. Either you want to do this or you're really wrong here. It's worse than game dev.
And in such an industry you're sitting there, wanting to hire. Out of 10 applicants, you can toss 9 immediately because they don't even come close to being qualified. The rest either has insane ideas about wages, a criminal record or some other reason why you just cannot use him. And at the same time you know that if you don't hire someone soon, they'll simply hire anyone and dump the dud on you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Again, I think this is part of the employees responsibility to manage expectations. I think it's human nature, rather than a fault with the manager, to want more stuff. You just have to re-establish shared goals through communication. If the manager asks for extra stuff, and it's not mission critical, it can be added onto the schedule and accomplished after the core requirements are finished. More often than not, deadlines get fudged, and I'm sure the manager will appreciate a final, complete project rather than an incomplete project with feature creep.
It sounds like you are working for a relatively small company? If so, a little education is in order...
In general, when a company hires you, they are hiring _you_, not for the skills of the day, but for your potential in the future and your ability to extend into new roles. As an employee of a small firm, you are expected to wear different hats, grow with the job, be flexible, and fill in holes where they need to be filled.
You sadly view yourself, instead, as a commodity, a replaceable set of skills; a robot. Your company was hoping that they had hired an all-around joe who was able to handle multiple new responsibilities as they came up. Instead of firing you, they let go some other poor slobs, which should bolster your confidence that they like you and want to trust in your talents.
No employer is perfect when opening a new position, and the business landscape always changes. You should never expect to be doing the exact same tasks in which you were hired for. And if you do, you probably need to work for a large business or the government which can help you in your endeavor to be plugged in mindlessly to the cog.
Your employer has obviously made some tough decisions and now needs you to perform some other duties. How exactly does that necessitate a pay raise, or a new title? Just do the work that is asked of you. You do their work, you collect a paycheck. It's really that simple. Titles are stupid and meaningless. Your new set of responsibilities does not imply a pay raise.
So, work hard for your pay. Become irreplaceable. Grow in your talents. Demonstrate your continued loyalty and support of your company and its managers. And if the company is any good and values your contributions, you will be rewarded appropriately.
And if you can't do this, you can't get over taking on new responsibilities while not getting a new title or some additional pay, then good luck selling your set of wares to the next poor schlub that might decide to hire you.
From my experience, the best jobs are the ones _without_ titles. What exactly again does a title give you? Prove your worth, and a pay raise (and more) may very well come your way.
Beware of geeks bearing formulas.
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street.
Absolutely. By pulling such a stunt, you'll have permanently destroyed any trust they had in you as an employee. If you stay at the company they'll have to relegate you to only non-essential tasks, purely to protect themselves from similar extortion later. Most likely that will just be a waste of your time and their money, and so they'll boot you and hire someone who they can trust.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
He didn't fire the first shot, his employer did. They used the economic downturn and his goodwill to dump huge quantities of additional responsibility on him without any compensation. All he is doing is returning fire and all power to him. Honestly, if they treat him like this now odds are he'll get laid off after project launch anyway, as they are treating him as disposable. So he might as well get his pay now 'cos he sure won't get it later.
Actually, not so much. The employer using the economic downturn to get extra work out of him for no extra pay is the flip side of him now using the economic revival to demand more money from them. That's fair enough.
Holding the project to ransom just before launch to get a pay raise is as bad as the company kidnapping his pet dog and using it to extort a pay cut from him.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Sure, who doesn't want 3x as much? In this economy, they will probably work for 75% of the prima donna they just fired, because after months of interviews, they know they aren't going to do much better, and some income is better than no income.
And this is why it's wise to have another job lined up before you start causing drama in the one you already have. If you don't like your current job, you don't have a poopie at them, quit, and then start looking. You quietly apply for a couple on the side. Then, when you get an offer, you talk to management and say "I've been offered X elsewhere". If you like your current job more than the new one, you give them a chance to counter-offer and keep you at a higher rate. If your new job pays that much more, or is that much more fun, then you just hand in your notice. I tend to get a 5% yearly pay rise at absolute most if I'm just sitting at the same company, but I tend to get a 10%+ raise when I move jobs (I actually start a new one in three weeks' time that pays 24% more than my current salary!), so moving jobs is a way to rapidly jack up your salary.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
The easiest way to get better pay is hopping jobs regularly.
And the additional advantage is you'll get diverse skills.
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
"You'll never make what you're worth working for somebody else."
That's from the wealthiest person I know who is a huge donor to a local university. And he's right.
It really doesn't matter how much stuff you know. The person that runs business X needs somebody who can do task Y and task Y has a specific value to business X. Period. If you can do more, good for you. It doesn't mean that they're going to pay you anymore.
Say you're the single greatest web programmer ever and you work for a company that makes websites for it's customers. In that company, you should be getting a portion of the money you're helping to rake in. You take your identical skill set to a telecom company and you will be paid somewhere in the budget range they've got allocated to the position, based on your experience.
Simple as that. Identical skill sets have different value to different people. Many business people just view you as "the web guy" if you're doing anything related to the web and as far as they're concerned you are being paid the acceptable rate for your time already. It's not a business where you can set different prices for different tasks.
You're being paid for your time per week. If they ask you to do something different with that time, there is not going to be a bit of difference in their mind. If you're doing web content, web design, or web programming you are going to be "the web guy" and assumed to do all of them. If somebody asks the janitor to build a website, the janitor will say "I don't know how."
If you'd like to be paid proportionally, per task type then start a business. The flip side to being able to set your own price as you perceive it's value is that you have to accumulate enough of a client base and reputation that people are willing to pay those rates consistently enough to pay your bills.
I've got my own business now and I used to feel undervalued, significantly, where I worked. Now, I would damn near kill for a steady paycheck. The ups and downs will kill you. What it has done though, is give me a dramatically greater appreciation for people who are able to provide jobs in the first place.
Are you working 100% of the time when you're on the job? Are you spending any time on slashdot/facebook/some other site?
Well, your employer was paying for every ounce of that time that you weren't really doing what you're paid to do. If you factor in your downtime + what you feel like you should be paid during your up time, it might just be a wash.
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
You think this sort of thing is limited to IT? I've got some bad news for you ..
to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.
Agreed. Always use project launches to demonstrate a lack of team playing. Walking out the door three days before a release really gets the point across.
What's this "team" you speak of? This is business we're talking about here - your job is to maximize profit. Not just for the company, but for yourself. Team spirit is great and all, but that doesn't put the kids through school. Your company will never trade profits for "good feelings" - why should you?
Several years back I posted an article on LockerGnome. Entitled "What is your definition of an I. T. Professional," I think it is highly relevant to this discussion. I.T. is a new profession in the history of the world, and in it's definition, not unlike legal, religion, accounting, even medical (if you want to argue the value of human life, try getting free medical treatment). I've worked for lawyers, doctors, accountants, and even clergy, and although I might not want to be associated with any of them, I feel I. T. professionals deserve recognition AS professionals. I. T. people make companies run, they create and run the systems that generate revenue, while the antiquated business people take credit. Without the I. T. people, the business people would be doing business on paper. That article is here: http://www.lockergnome.com/it/2007/08/06/what-is-your-definition-of-an-it-professional/ But business doesn't want this. They want to keep the I. T. people down. They think all we do is type, and I've actually heard, "Can't you type faster?" Obviously that person was so inadequate as to even understand the depth of out knowledge or what we really do. They think we are just the geeks that they belittled in school, and we kept laughing and saying it's OK. It is in fact business that is antiquated. Take meetings for example. Meetings are a throwback to days before telephones, when business HAD to call people together to disseminate and gather information. That they still cling to this is simple proof of their obsolescence. Getting back to the topic at hand, and that is, "What to do when responsibilities spiral," the answer to that will come when I. T. is recognized as a profession. I took a job as a programmer, and ended up being Network Admin and Webmaster and even computer-builder. Yes, I should have been paid more. Another way we get conned into more responsibilities is when we are asked to give of our personal lives. If an I. T. person carries a pager and thus cannot be free to live their life, cannot have drinks at dinner for fear of being paged, well that I. T. person should be paid for all his time, THE SAME WAY that a lawyer would demand a retainer for merely being available. We need the lawyers to do their job and PROSECUTE those responsible when companies LIE TO CONGRESS and ask for more H1B visas when so many I. T. People are out of work. Limit the number of people in the field and the value will return. I'd like to say we need a national union but ... well, there actually is a limit to the flames I wish to create.
I think with this economy, some people jump to the quick and easy response "Just be glad you have a job and shut up." I have been through multiple layoffs during this recession and my take is some companies are using the recession as an excuse. They use it as an excuse to overwork people, to not take care of HR issues when they need to, not give raises (even cost of living) and other general crappiness that they can get away with. Obviously, you are not being treated right. They probably said to themselves "Yeah this guy is bright and can multitask so lets get rid of everyone and make him do all the work!" Cost-savings of $$$$. You won't get fired for asking for a raise. Go in there with a complete list of the things that you do/are responsible for and see what they say. If they say F**%% off, then you know to start looking. The economy is getting better and if you leave, they are going to be screwed. If they are stupid enough to not give you anything, they deserve what they get.
Change all the pw's and hold the network hostage. If they don't give you a raise, rm -r *
All the above advice is great, but the short version is this: your employers are either idiots or abusers. Get out. In my experience, it is very, very rarely in your best interest to do a job you don't want to do, for too little money. At least for more than a few months. If the job responsibilities are shifting, then the organization really needs to hire someone who wants those responsibilities. And if they can't hire such a person, and are trying to save money by manipulating you into doing the work, then they are taking advantage of you. So keep your good attitude, but ya I agree with others who said it's time to start looking elsewhere before the environment becomes more abusive than it is now.
That works when you have a prima donna to start with. If you have an underpaid guy, good luck finding an equally skilled candidate willing to work for 75% of the salary (and that it's not going to walk out of the door 3 months later when he finds a decent job).
And did I mention how much I love my parents for ensuring I don't ever have to deal with that crap again? Typing all that out makes me remember just how miserable that whole scene was.
I've been doing short term temp work to keep myself occupied (Fast fact: Spend more than a month at home at a time with nothing to do, and you will start hating your wife and kids). A few weeks ago I spent 3 days sanding off the little plastic pieces left on plastic forks when they leave the extruder. Grunt work is so much less stressful than corporate bullshit. And it's possible to make decent money doing mindless labor. Awhile back I had a temp job at a food manufacturing plant for a month spraying down their machines to eliminate allergens and was getting paid $14/hr. Full employees were making $18/hr. with a full benefits package.
So there's another good tip for possibly increasing your job satisfaction. Move somewhere with a low cost of living (here in NE Oklahoma you can get a new, mid range 1800sq ft, 4BR 2Bath house for $175k) Get a job doing grunt work and get the hell out of the office.
.... that would be construed as unfair dismisal and your employer would have been liable.
As it turns out, it was, and they were.
Or a college student with the same skills that will work for a reasonable wage.
Or an Indian with more knowledge who will do more work for a 3rd as much.
People really need to get off their high horses and realize that there are plenty of people in the world who would be happy to work for far less just because its working for something ... rather than starving.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Not really, most will work for far less as long as you can speak their language ... which ever version of Engrish it happens to be.
Contrary to popular belief, its not hard to find cheap help in the IT industry, its rather over populated and as long as you don't mind working with people who don't speak great english you can find very qualified individuals for next to nothing.
Climb off your high horse before the fall kills you.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Thats a stupid assumption. It could not possibly be more wrong.
I can replace you, regardless of whatever it is you think you do that so special.
It might take some time (could take years!) but I promise you, I can do anything you can do and probably do it better.
The real problem is, out of the 6 billion or so people out there, many of them can replace you and will have the ground work to replace you in a much shorter time than I.
You will lose output in the short term, but if you're planning your company around the short term, its highly unlikely there will be a long term to worry about.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Looking at the +5 insightfuls I have to wonder ...
How many of you are +5 unemployed because you did what you're telling this guy to do?
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
If everyone stopped giving out raises because of inflation, there would be no inflation.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Absolutely. I've personally had projects where they took the cheaper developer over me, then came back to me in two weeks asking if I could still work with them. It's unfortunate with those projects that we couldn't just save some time and skip the superfluous steps.
(Please note: In no way am I stating that Indian developers as a group are less skilled or whatever else. There are a lot of firms that exploit Western companies looking for cheap coders though; they are who I am speaking of.)
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
That is until you start calling them back and find out that 95 won't return your call because they found other jobs better than working for a shithead like you, then of the 5 that come in 3 or 4 of them misrepresent themselves, which leaves you with 1 or 2 who want double what you're paying the "dumbass".
Shitty employees are willing to work for shitty companies. If you are good(which it sounds like you're better than everyone they let go), find a decent company to work for. They do exist. They are few and far between though, just like great employees are.
In my trade you do not have those years. You have a few months. Tops. And even then, you're already falling behind. If you do not produce for "years" (because that's essentially what kicking the few key people you have out means), you can just as well shut your company down. Unless of course you're not hanging on quality but marketing and getting suckers to use your ... I don't want to say worthless, but it would be the most fitting label ... product.
Fortunately, though, the few "good" people that exist are also the ones that are not in it for the money. Money is nice, but once you have enough to live, why bother wanting more? It's mostly a matter of how you treat me, I'll treat you. As stated above, an hour of me is expensive. And if you cram 80+ hours into my week, rest assured that every single one thereof will be billed. If you give me an assignment and let me pick the pace, I will probably end up with 80+ hours a week, too, because it's sometimes simply necessary. Especially in my trade, you have weeks that exist of working, sleeping and somewhere in between stuffing food into your face. It's necessary sometimes. It cannot be necessary all of the time. If it is, hire more people. I can train people to at least be able to aid me in my work. Not hiring people when I am crunching time for two people only tells me one thing: You don't care that you're wearing me out. And I will not allow this. In the long run, it does ruin me. I have seen people in burnout. Even being kicked out beats this. Because then, you really ARE unable to do anything anymore. For a long while. Possibly forever.
Treat your worker with respect and he will work for you. Treat him like a replacable light bulb and he will burn out sooner or later. If you can afford this, nice for you. If you find someone stupid enough to let you do it with him, even nicer for you. But not very nice of you.
In short, don't bother hire me. I do not think we'll get along.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
By stuffing four jobs into one person, the company would have lost all trust I put into it as an employee anyway. In short, this is the moment when you start looking for a new job because this one is nothing but a quick way to burnout. Take with you as much as you can and get out of there. Fast.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
your mom is a whore
Morpheus, God of Dreams.
People really need to get off their high horses and realize that there are plenty of people in the world who would be happy to work for far less just because its working for something ... rather than starving.
I'm sorry, but once you get above 7/11 and WalMart/K-Mart (we're talking I.T. after all) we've kinda lifted a *touch* above the whole starving realm.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Your life has afforded you the intelligence and resources to get a college education, and a job that pays more than ten grand a year.
What I'm about to say is harder in practice than in theory, but it's the truth.
Don't take your situation for granted. You have to step outside your self and look at the situation objectively. Your life kicks ass, sir.
It's not going to hurt to print out a few resumes and float them around, since you're obviously being taken advantage of, but from where I'm sitting, I want taken advantage of... badly.