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Tornado Scientists Butt Heads With Storm Chasers
An anonymous reader writes "Tornado researchers say amateurs — inspired by movies like Twister and shows like Storm Chasers — are getting in their way, hampering science and creating hazards. 'Hundreds of camera-toting amateurs in cars ended up chasing the same storms as a fleet of scientific vehicles during the high-profile research project, called Vortex2, which wrapped up data collection this week. At times the line of traffic caused the Midwestern roads to look like the freeways of Los Angeles, said Roger Wakimoto, director of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, during a briefing for reporters this week. "I worry about this as a safety hazard," Mr. Wakimoto said. "These people were blocking our escape routes because of the sheer number of cars."' Storm chasers say they have as much right to watch storms as Ph.D.s."
See subject.
Hmm, sure ... as long as your stupidity doesn't get the Phd folk killed.
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
Amateur storm chasers are just unemployed adrenaline junkies that are all balls and no forehead.
nice!
...of controversy.
Shouldn't these "amateurs" have a clause in their insurance which automatically cancels the insurance if they do something as mind-bogglingly stupid as driving towards tornadoes?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Even if it does get them killed, every last one of the bunch stuck in traffic went there knowing they could get blocked in by other people. Who says the PhD types couldn't contribute to some amateurs getting killed? There's a storm that can put a toothpick through an oak tree: everyone running towards it is responsible for their own consequences.
For some reason I misread the title as Tornado Scientists Butthurt About Storm Chasers. I can't imagine why.
1) Those elitist egg heads are doing something that should be done, and done better by the common man.
2) The evil government is doing something nefarious and we're going to keep an eye on them
Bullshit, those storm chasers are not motivated by movies and shows like Twister and Storm Chasers. Everybody knows they are motivated by xkcd. See: http://xkcd.org/752/
why just the other day I was inspired to become a pilot after watching Iron Eagle III, and the week before that I took up the ancient Japanese art of Ninjitsu after watching American Ninja
As a chaser, emergency first responder, and media chaser... I can say that the problem is NOT the chasers but the "Chaser-chasers". The article references May 19th in Oklahoma where most commonly you could find local folks with their kids and dogs in the back of the family pickup truck taking pictures with their phones and point and shoots. Regardless of what the masses in Oklahoma think... just because you have an iPhone app with radar does NOT classify you as a "chaser"! On top of VORTEX2's caravan of 40+ vehicles, you have NBC/The Weather Channel following the VORTEX2 project that are not included with that count. You've also got the Discovery Channel's team of production vehicles coupled with the "Dominator" and TIV2, which both were captured passing miles worth of vehicles on a two lane highway in a no passing zone! Throw a few tour groups, emergency management, a couple media chasers in the mix... and you've got yourself a problem on the roadways. But those numbers nowhere add up to the amount of local yahoos who gathered up the family and put themselves in more harm than anything. This situation defiantly makes me think twice of chasing in Oklahoma again.
Perhaps, in a painfully literal sense, but claiming that your desire to seek an adrenaline high is just as valid as their desire to do research that will save lives is high asshattery.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Even if it does get them killed, every last one of the bunch stuck in traffic went there knowing they could get blocked in by other people. Who says the PhD types couldn't contribute to some amateurs getting killed? There's a storm that can put a toothpick through an oak tree: everyone running towards it is responsible for their own consequences.
Well, clearly the PHD's just need to call "dibs" on the tornados, blocking the "amateurs" from chasing.
Use a helicopter....what could possibly go wrong?
120 characters isn't enough to explain it.
Considering one of the so called profesionals referenced in the article (Wurman) got chased by a tornado a couple years ago near Stuttgart, AR? And it was all caught on tape too for his TV show STORM CHASERS.
but the "chaser-chaser" chasers. They put the "fun" back into "funnel".
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
They're pretty sure all that science stuff is an elitist, commie, atheist plot to steal their vital bodily fluids and turn them all gay.
It's evolution in action. By all means, let's get more of these "amateur scientists" in there, and get more stupid out of the gene pool.
Tornado researchers say amateurs — inspired by movies like Twister
Really? Twister?!? Did you ever see that movie?
I think anyone who is inspired by that movie should go chase a tornado. The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Darwin will clean up this mess soon enough. These people will NOT be passing their curiosity onto their children.
If the scientists didn't talk down on everyone else... The Vortex2 project was the one that was in "Storm Chasers" building up all the hype... well what did they expect?! I'm sure they have a passion for what they are doing, but they're kind of coming off looking like pricks.... just say'in.
I should note this was with only his group & Discovery Channel around...
Causing a traffic jam near a storm that as you mention, can put a toothpick through an oak tree, falls well below any reasonable threshold for "intelligence" never mind responsibility.
Perhaps the thing to do would be to use an off-road motorcycle and go for the big score - a dozen cars with nowhere to go getting scooped up and chucked.
I always flinch when I see images of roads clogged with folks chasing a tornadic storm either just for the thrill or for the purposes of filming it - doing so is a Bad Idea and sooner or later is going to get some people (possibly a LOT of people) needlessly killed.
Professional scientific researchers have training, equipment and experience. They are fully aware of the danger the storm presents, and are risking it to perform scientific studies for the purpose of increasing human knowledge about these systems. They know what they're doing, they have things like mobile doppler radar to help them keep track of the situation, and aren't out there for cheap thrills.
People, you need to respect these storms. Sure, they produce awesome video. Great. Watch the Discovery show or the latest PBS special - don't go charging into the middle of danger! Does watching snake handlers on television make you want to go hunt up a rattler and start juggling it??? These storms are DANGEROUS. People DIE in these things, and cars are not a safe place to be. Particularly in heavy traffic.
Scientific study of these storms is a legitimate activity, and is more legitimate (and deserves precedence over) thrill seekers and people looking to make a cool home movie. If it comes down to it, maybe we should license storm chasers and fine anyone else who tries it - send some police cars along with the scientific teams. Make their special status explicit under the law, if that's what it takes, because people seeking knowledge to help make better warning systems are surely more important than cheap thrills for people with no common sense or survival instincts.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Sorry can't feel bad for Joshua Wurman, considering he was and is the person in the storm chasers series on Discovery TV.. If he wants to complain, then he shouldn't have promoted it with a TV show...
Hmm, sure ... as long as your stupidity doesn't get the Phd folk killed.
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
We would know, but most of the people involved died in mid tweet. Besides the others were too busy running away.
only outlaws will drive at tornadoes!
....
works for me...
we need a word for when this happens: torna-doh!
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
Given that the amateurs are just there for kicks, they should know and accept that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation.
The PhDs also know that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation, but they are doing so to increase the sum of human knowledge, which makes it slightly more worthwhile.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
i live in tornado alley, and it is common for people to chase storms around here (i also live around the biggest meteorological college in the country, so we get a lot of meteorology majors who do this crap too).
i say let 'em do it.
it's not just phDs out chasing. it is a million guys who work for local news stations. if they get to overhype and over-sensationalize these events, then they get to deal with the crowds. if a raindrop hits the ground between April and June, they cut away from normal programming for 4 hours to talk about it. they bring this all on themselves.
if phDs are doing research, then let them get money in their grants to get security escorts for their research.
"let's go to val in the field..."
Enthusiasts can spot tornadoes and call in reports, potentially saving lives.
What this article fails to mention is one of the reasons Vortex2 even got a go was partially because of the success and semi-stardom Dr. Josh Wurman got from participating in "Storm Chasers".
The publicity that show generated for them no doubt helped lube the federal funding money chute.
Besides, you can't just declare martial law and saw "No one can storm chase". There's no solution that will ever be enacted that ends with making it illegal, so you may as well stop bitching about it and simply work with the other guys. I'm amazed there isn't a federal call center or something for these chasers to all phone in to, and a website with realtime dopplar radar provided to them. The faster these guys report a tornado on a ground, the easier it is for the weather people to push a button for a siren or some other event.
This just sounds like sour grapes. You could see the annoyance on the part of the "funded" scientist when that little no-name crew successfully flew a model airplane around a tornado and dropped sensors into it. The fact that was done on a budget put together by selling Tornado videos to news channels sounds like a win/win for me. Took none of my tax dollars, and reaped novel data.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Why do the "legitimate" scientists think that they are any better, deserving, or even more fit than the "amateur" scientists? Or even the thrill junkie? What gives them the temerity to try to exclude others from natural phenomenon. I think of myself as scientifically minded, but science is not the only thing. Some people study oceanographic waves, some people surf. Don't like it, study cryptozoology, no one will bother you there.
These "amateurs" must learn to respect the almighty power and authority of Science and those that do it's works! They must not interfere with the great works of our Scientists for they operate under the authority of the power of Logic. Science damn these tornado chasing fools for their misaken ways!
tom skilling had a lot of fun doing this!
http://www.chicagoweathercenter.com/severe/stormchase/
I stopped reading the article when I read "Dr. Wurman said that amateur storm chasers rarely offer useful information"
It always bothers me when people with PhD's discount the information provided by amateurs. More than 1/2 the PhD's I have worked with tend to have a belief that if you do not have a degree in the subject you can not possibly provide any useful research data or that there is no way you can know what you are talking about.
If they are worried about the numbers of amateur storm chasers maybe they should have a conference with them and train them in proper data collection and where to report it. Then the people they think are "getting in the way" could be helpful and add to the body of scientific knowledge.
But then they would have to admit that anyone can do science and not just the PhD's. We can't have that, we have to pack the class rooms so they can get paid.
Well, the PhDs have a little thing called KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING.
But apparently not the consequences their ignorance and sense of entitlement force on others.
> Well, the PhDs have a little thing called KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING.
You assume. And you assume that the amateurs don't know what they're doing.
Shouldn't that be, "Tornado Scientists: Butt Heads With Storm Chasers"?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Are you sure? I have a PhD and sometimes, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just making it up as I go along...
Lucky for society my PhD isn't related to my job.
It is, still, a free country. If storm chasers are interfering with your data collection, you are just going to have to factor them into your plans.
You can ask them to stay out of your way, but that's all you can do: ask.
"Tornado Experts versus Average Joes"
Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode when Dr. Johnson's pursuit of an F2 comes to a crashing halt after two joes get into an accident along the way:
"What the [bleep] is going on here!?? [bleep] [bleep] Get your [bleep]-ing cars out of the way!!!"
Sidepanel: Dr. Johnson: "I feel really frustrated right now...umm....the tornado could dissipate at any moment...[camera cuts to tornado]...but we can't get our...uhhh...vehicles going because of this accident....you know it's..ahh..frustrating. [camera pans across upset staffers] You know, very frustrating."
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
Now that would be some good TV!
In Soviet Russia, storm chases you
If they are professionals , they will find a way around the problem.
---CUT---
I'm amazed there isn't a federal call center or something for these chasers to all phone in to, and a website with realtime dopplar radar provided to them. The faster these guys report a tornado on a ground, the easier it is for the weather people to push a button for a siren or some other event.
---CUT---
There is. SKYWARN is a program run by the NWS/NOAA, local law enforcement, and private citizens that lets anyone with some basic (really basic) meterological knowledge (what a wall cloud looks like, how to spot early rotation, etc) utilize an amateur radio to call in sightings of severe and tornadic weather using thier SKYWARN volunteer designator.
NWS will turn a tornado watch into a warning based solely on observer reports.
SKYWARN is a great program, IMO. BTW, most of those awesome tornado videos you see arent from scientists, they're from storm chasers and SKYWARN people.
This space for rent.
Solution, disguise research vehicles as dump trucks.
iburnaga.blogspot.com
The traffic jams due to too many people trying to get pictures of tornados, are only temporary. Within a year or two at the most, a tornado will turn toward the caravan of cars and trucks, and a lot of people will be killed. Very quickly after that, it will become common knowledge (again) that chasing a tornado is dangerous and foolish. Then, the majority of people will quit this foolishness, and stay out of the way.
I wonder if the professionals could use airplanes, or perhaps remotely piloted drones, for some of their data collection. Is there some part of their work that must be done at ground level by a heavy vehicle?
And for pedophiles fucking children is a big part of what makes living interesting.
Should we allow anything at all on the pretext that it makes living interesting for someone?
"These people were blocking our escape routes because of the sheer number of cars."
No, sir, YOU were blocking THEIR escape routes because of YOUR being there.
The PhDs also know that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation, but they are doing so to increase the sum of human knowledge, which makes it slightly more worthwhile.
They got those PhDs so they could get paid to do what the other guys are doing for free: looking at neat swirly shit. The science is a byproduct.
"These rank amateur egg-head academics are putting themselves and others in harm's way and causing unnecessary danger for the professionals whose job it is to cope with these storms. They have no business in the field and should stay out of the way."
Fire, Police, EMT first responders, 2000
"These rank amateur thrill-seeking rednecks are putting themselves and others in harm's way and causing unnecessary danger for the professionals whose job it is to cope with these storms. They have no business in the field and should stay out of the way."
Egghead Academics, 2010
"Hey Cletus, hold my beer and watch me dominate..."
Thrill-seeking rednecks and the Dominator
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Well, the PhDs have a little thing called KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING.
But apparently not the consequences their ignorance and sense of entitlement force on others.
What? Since when does PhD mean I know what the fuck I am doing? Last time I checked, the piece of paper simply shows that I know what the fuck others have done in the past... I would not at all be surprised if the "experts" chasing the storms around could learn quite a lot from the amateurs. Besides, I'm pretty sure they didn't cover evasive driving when being chased by a fucking tornado in any of the courses while en route to the PhD.
Tornado scientist Beavis claimed that a tornado can pick up a phone booth, carry it five miles, and drop it on a guy; whereas Tornado scientist Butthead was quoted as saying "A tornado can like, rip a man's heart out and show it to him before he dies. Uh huh. Uh-huh-huh-huh-huhuh."
They also said that Stewart was not cool enough to be a Tornado scientist and had to like, go away and stop chasing them around and asking questions and stuff.
I rode with an organized storm chasing group for a couple of years. When I say organized, I mean there were meetings, committees, bylaws, a training program, certifications, schedules, and procedures. The group had its own commercial FM repeater, as well as being authorized to use a number of amateur radio repeaters, for communications. You didn't just show up and go storm chasing, you had to go through the training and orientation first.
Many times, members of the group called in weather reports that resulted in warnings being issued. It was a standing requirement that we attend yearly spotter training courses from the National Weather Service, and many members of the group did have an interest in the science behind the storms. Many people in the group had a genuine interest in doing something for the public good.
However, many *others* in the group were deeply caught up in the whole thing; they'd take any opportunity to criticize the forecasters at the local National Weather Service office, the weather guy on TV, and local emergency management officials. They'd never pass up a chance to be interviewed, especially on television. It was common at meetings to watch storm chasing video, often of people doing 95 down some two lane highway, shooting video while driving. People would talk in the same breath about how much the group was needed, respected, and adored by local government officials.
I eventually left the group, because the training and certifications and all that were meaningless. While there were some genuinely interested people in the group, the people who founded and ran the group really were in it for the adrenaline, and the glory, and the TV footage, and the science was only included as a means to get better video. No one from the group went to school to study atmospheric sciences, or even took classes.
If storm chasers are getting a bad reputation, it's because they've earned it. It may be just a few bad apples, but enough of the sorta good apples follow the bad ones down the highway.
You can be a storm spotter, trained or not, on your front porch. You're likely to do more good doing that, than wasting fuel and polluting the air driving 150 miles across Nebraska in the rain.
The fact that no disaster has happened so far is irrefutable proof that it never will.
Get it, blow over... storm... blow... I kill myself. What do you mean, "yes please".
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Get the PhD folks killed?
Who's to say the PhD folks won't get the other (yes, other) chasers killed? Just because you've got a fancy truck with fancy equipment (and the knowledge to use it) doesn't mean you're more important, less likely to fuck up, or more useful at the time in hand.
Honestly, the PhD types are less important, short term. It's frequently storm chasers who provide information on things like wind speeds, tornado class, damage, direction, videos, etc. to news agencies. These news agencies then report on these things immediately, helping save lives.
The PhDs can get stuffed: they're getting in the way of preventative emergency volunteer work with their silly long-term goals. They're like someone reading a barometer during a flood.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Ssssh! He's elevating PhDs to the level of gods! That's good for you, just play along, and maybe someday you'll cross paths with him and he'll give you a BJ or something.
"...is it ethical or even morally right to get in the way of real scientists?"
That inspires me. I'm putting a new, giant mirror-reversed-text bumper sticker on the front of my storm chasing vehicle: "Get Out of My Way--I'm a Scientist!"
I think you'll find that if people do something all the time over a period of years, they'll end up 'KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING' as a matter of course. It's called 'experience' and is not always related to how many books one reads.
I have nothing but respect for PhDs, but I doubt that much they learn in grad school prepares them any better for storm chasing than what an amateur can learn from doing it themselves. (And, get this, amateurs can read books too! I know, right? Who knew that you could read books outside of degree programs and still learn things!)
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
I don't really see rich repubs sitting in their basements talking on hams. Slashdotters on the other hand....
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
And naturally "they" need to do something about it. I could care less about the "professionals." There are plenty of obstacles during stormy weather. Debris and people just trying to leave are among them. So people want to storm chase. They should be allowed to. This notion that "someone" should "do something about it" flies in the face of freedom. I recall when I was listening to mainstream coverage about a trans-Alaska ski, foot, and bike winter race. Someone on the panel piped up, "They let them do that?" Who are the "they" and what gives them the right to stop them? Chase on, storm chasers! "I'd rather die on my feet then live on my knees!" - Skakenigs
How the fuck do YOU know they know what they're doing?
For chrissakes, they're going out in fucking VEHICLES into a fucking TORNADO.
Yeah, a PhD justifies everything, right?
You fucking idiot.
I have a tendency to agree. The "PhDs", including some participants in Vortex 2, are mostly people who have their either extreme video or tornado tourism businesses.
Sorry, folks, the roads belong to everyone, but ultimately the Highway Patrol "owns" the road, and yes, in places they are cracking down on crazed drivers, parking in the road, piles of gadgets obscuring the windows, etc.
Ultimately, I'd be more worried about some fly-by-night outfit rolling a van or driving head-on into someone either because the vehicles are poorly maintained or the driver is sleep-deprived.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Funny. I'm an amateur, but I'm also trained for on the ground reporting to Environment Canada. I really don't make a huge distinction here. But then again I've been having fun doing this for the last 8 years, and have been watching storms since I was 5.
Om, nomnomnom...
And, generally speaking, do so earlier and more frequently than the rest of us, what with them being a little confused about how the whole process works...
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I saw the mockumentary Rainbow Chasers at the Breckenridge Film Festival last weekend. This was about a bunch of low budget guys who cant seem to find a rainbow. (This was the prequel short for Kurzweil's The Singularity)
Thanks, you made my day. Granted, it's been pretty shitty so far, so it wouldn't have taken much, but it was still hillarious non the less.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
In many states, it is against the law to interfere with the progress of emergency vehicles, and other folks on the road are required to make room for such vehicles so they can pass by.
Put a police escort in front of the critical storm chasing vehicles ... that way anyone who decides to be a smart ass and get in the way "for a good picture" will get a nice ticket for their trouble.
Seriously... I respect the fact that others have as much right to view these storms as the folks making scientific readings, but there are legal ways to expedite movement through traffic. And I'm not talking about fixing snow plow blades to the front of the radar trucks, either. :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Do you really think that the 'scientists' aren't mostly out there for the rush themselves?
The ranking system. I'd recon a smaller ranking system would have more torque.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Equipment or not, fancy degree or not, press pass or not, it doesn't matter. If somebody wants to get out there in the path of a storm, more power to them. I hope they are smart enough to take care of themselves, and I hope they are considerate enough to help those more stupid or less fortunate. But in the end it's nobody's business (and nobody's responsibility) but the guy making the decision to be there.
And look, if anybody has any more rights to the roads than anybody else, it is the locals.
Just remember that what goes around comes around.
Best wishes
I'd like to introduce your motorcycle to the fence. It's so new that it hasn't been discussed on /.
Except for the part where the traffic jam blocks escape routes and gets in the way of emergency vehicles.
Oh, OK, this is Slashdot, you didn't RTFA, right?
Amateurs: When you find your tornado, let everyone else escape first. You put yourself in the situation so let those more intelligent save themselves first. After this, you'll have a little more experience and you are allowed to escape in the next to the last group. Incidentally, your widow won't get your insurance money because it's not an act of God when you're jumping in.
If those people who are blocking went there without necessity and someone gets killed as a consequence then they are guilty of manslaughter.
Everyone has the right to use public roads, but no one has the right to be criminally reckless.
The tornado might miss the trailer park. By chasing it actively, with their children sitting in the back of the pickup truck, rednecks try to maximize their chances of earning a Darwin Award.
The area of tornadoes is not the only place in which scientists have to compete with money grubbers and thrill seekers. Archaeological sites and fossil beds, both possessing great value to science, are prone to being looted and scavenged by all types of profit-motivated individuals.
The United Nations (it will require a global endeavor beyond any single government) must establish protection for all areas that are deemed critical for scientific progress. This kind of potential knowledge and discovery cannot be left to senseless and ruinous plunder.
You make a salient larger point. There's a good deal of lack of respect for nature. Whether it be sailing around the world when you're 16, going to live with Grizzly's, or scaling the Himalayas; good old fashioned awe is at a long time low. Technology is the prime mover I guess in counting coup with a tornado. After the encounter you bring images and tales back to the BBQ and share them with your (now) world youtube tribe who anoints you with adulation and esteem. I've been close to a tornado whilst exposed in the eastern plains of Colorado. There is no record of me lying in a ditch soiling my pants and I'm glad of it. Ooops.
That reminds me of that old joke:
-"next week is my dad's birthday, what should I give him?"
-"give him a book"
-"no, he already has one"
But that's not what the scientists were complaining about. There's plenty of room in the road for scientific research vehicles plus all the ambulances and other emergency vehicles that rescue the tornado victims. There's not room enough for the ambulances plus 3000 amateur storm chasers.
Yeah, but they got a PhD in climate science or something like that.
They are just as terrible drivers as anyone else who is not me.
The difference between 'experience' and 'training' is a syllabus. It may surprise you to learn that everything that can be considered a skill that people do now at one time had to be done by people who had nobody to learn from and 'didn't know what they were doing' simply because they were the first to do it. A human being with initiative can self-educate. As a species we should never denigrate that, as it has been the key to civilization itself.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
Funny, I don't remember PHd's this whiney?
Next they'll complain that the human population gets in the way of climate research.
I suppose they are already complaining that during a solar eclipse they have no place to set up their cameras.
Soon they will be complaining that they can't park their satellite in orbit because there are 'space tourists' in the way.
If its really dangerous. Darwin will thin the herd. Patience!
Thanks! I never thought of googling it!
Now why didn't Galileo just read the documentation Aristotle had written on gravitation? He could have avoided some nasty arguments with the pope! Or why didn't Einstein read what Lorenz had written on relativity? Or why did Schockley, Bardeen, and Brattain invent the transistor? Vacuum tubes were extremely well documented in 1947. I could go on all night.
Sigh. I guess 640 kbytes will always be enough for somebody...
Are you sure? I have a PhD and sometimes, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just making it up as I go along...
When you graduate from high school you know everything.
When you graduate from college you realize you don't actually know everything.
When you get a masters' degree you realize you don't know *anything*.
When you get a PhD you realize nobody else does, either.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Public roads are still public. If you can't handle some enthusiastic people, GTFO and STFU. Stupid cry baby "scientists."
Just like just about everything else shown in movies and on TV. And to think the media companies still hold to the notion that media is a reflection of society. This phenomenon of amateur storm chasers clearly shows media spurs people to do things they have never done before, whether it be storm chasing (how many storm chasers were there before the movies and tv shows) or murder.
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
Really? You happen to know that every single one of those scientists put themselves through many years of college just for the money and had no real desire to further science? Wow, I didn't realize science was loaded with such scammers. For all we know they make up their data.
Capitalizing doesn't make it any more valid. And this whole "sense of entitlement" stuff... which group were you attacking?
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
That did happen, saw it in the documentary "Twister."
Come to think of it, it's a little odd that the cinematography from inside the car as it's being destroyed is so great. You'd think the cameraman would be afraid for his own life, or the camera would cut out or something. Another eye opener is that some B list celebrities conduct research on tornadoes. Weird...
As Einstein famously pointed out, "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?"
Who's to say the PhD folks won't get the other (yes, other) chasers killed? Just because you've got a fancy truck with fancy equipment (and the knowledge to use it) doesn't mean you're more important, less likely to fuck up, or more useful at the time in hand.
Wrong. And by the way, the long term matters.
Even if it does get them killed, every last one of the bunch stuck in traffic went there knowing they could get blocked in by other people. Who says the PhD types couldn't contribute to some amateurs getting killed? There's a storm that can put a toothpick through an oak tree: everyone running towards it is responsible for their own consequences.
Well, clearly the PHD's just need to call "dibs" on the tornados, blocking the "amateurs" from chasing.
They should call "shotgun". And if the amateurs get in the way, they can always use that shotgun.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Are they any closer to figuring out a way to STOP tornados?
Now if the police were complaining about these storm cahsers breaking the law (speeding etc) I would understand.
Yeah, but without an EPA permit, they will shut off your tornado containment field.
i can bet money on who would say such a assnine thing if you ever watched storm chasers there lead guy for there resurch is a total ass who cant find a tornado if his job depended on it. yes even with all the fancy eq the real chasers find systems before he decides witch direction to go on a road. he complanes abought traffic but they are 40+ cars taking up the road. i dont like that guy he does not know what hes doing and i wish there team would see it. hes a grater hindrance on the team then any chaser.
... one F5 tornado taking a sudden left across a highway clogged by storm chasers will pretty much solve this problem for good.
A hundred deaths and this won't seem so fun to the amateurs anymore.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Yep.
Scientists do not have a monopoly on access to public places. If they are concerned for their safety, they should leave, or not go in the first place. Being a scientists does not make you a "better" person and does not entitle you to privileged access to anything.
Yes, storm chasers have the right to chase a storm, but they are blinded to the fact that they also have the RESPONSIBILITY to do so safely.
You have the right to go out into the street and start yelling racist stuff, but you'll probably get hurt badly if you do. Storm chasers have the right to be on the roads, but that doesn't mean they're not causing other people harm while doing so.
If a hundred people can get in the way of a meteorologist with a doctorate degree, going in person to try to get tornado research data, that same Ph.D. could have stayed at the office, with a good radio communications system, to direct his dozens of volunteer amateur research assistants in the field without risking his own ass.
Solution: Teach a free one-credit course at the community colleges and turn all those ogling jackasses into your data collection network.
Just like idiots who cue across level crossings...
.
Voting up, Voting down - If I really gave a fuck about your approval or not, I'd come and ask you.
it would seem as thought 'yanks' need a bit of a history schooling on what chasing really is...
And so I present to those who have not already been enlightened:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/chaser
Exactly. They certainly have the right to watch these tornadoes.
...until it gets in the way of someone elses safety.
(Variation on "the freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins", at least that's what I was going for.)
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
simply because they were the first to survive doing it.
There, fixed that for ya.
Uh huh. So some PhD that learned what he knows about storms by reading books and research papers necessarily knows how to handle himself better in a real storm than an amateur storm chaser that has been doing it for years? Right!
And yeah, I know there are PhD's with years of experience and amateur's with very little. I just wanted to make the point that just because someone has a PhD in a field only means they have theoretical knowledge and not necessarily the practical field experience to go along with it.
With all those video cameras should make for some awesome YouTube clips, and multiple angles too!
I got really sour on Dr. Josh Wurman/Jonas Miller after watching Storm Chasers. This just goes to show he's an arrogant prick. He's just afraid one of the less-funded "amateur chasers" might beat him to the analysis he was looking for. Doesn't he have the power to part the sea of cars?
I'm an occasional storm chaser, definitely not a meteorologist. I've been chasing a couple times, and I've only seen one traffic jam, which was mildly stupid, not terribly dangerous, and composed of about two thirds recreational chasers, one third more science-y looking types.
For the most part, when people are out there, they seem to have good attitudes, but in both the chaser and science communities there are some big, terrible egos that really have little tolerance for people who aren't doing the exact same thing the exact same way they are. But that's just whining, that's not the real problem.
The real problem is common sense, which is ever slightly less uncommon with the science crowd than with the recreation crowd. Both are capable of blocking roads, impeding traffic, and being a general nuisance. Again, the recreation crowd is slightly worse at this because there are slightly more people proportionally in that crowd that lack appreciation for their surroundings due to overexcited-ness and some of them just being silly kids and/or hillbillies out looking for fun. That said, some people who think they are big shots because they're "scientists", and the world should get out of their way, and the same problems emerge.
So, to the scientist community, I say, complaining about chasers is NOT the answer to your difficulties. Cooperation and education ARE answers (though imperfect as there will always be some yahoos out there being stupid). Sure, the science community has the best tools out there for doing legitimate research, but they're usually slow groups and many participants don't have the skill or experience to get to areas of interest like many of the best chasers do. If chasers were utilized as a scouting tool by Vortex and other search entities, given proper chasing protocols, and for those who show they're responsible enough, some actual data acquisition tools, Vortex could have a lot more success and everyone could be happier and have a good time too. Many chasers are really just a lot better at getting to storms (safely), than the researchers, it's just a fact (of course, it's also a fact that a lot of inexperienced chasers suck, but whatever, hopefully they can at least have positive examples on how to conduct themselves safely and respectfully). I mean, he may be a complete spaz that rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but Reed Timmer and crew have a LOT more success getting to tornadoes than any researchers. There are a lot of other chasers out there who are also very good and if treated with respect would be quite happy to aid in a research project.
In other words, CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?! (it's better than whining behind each other's backs, we don't want this to start being like that awful Twister movie).
you cannot dodge the quad laser. jumping is useless.
Yup. Clearly if money is the prime goal one wants to spend 4 years in a tough undergrad program becfore moving on to a 6 year (on average) graduate program and probably a post-doc or 2, vs. getting a degree in marketing and having your company pay for your MBA and rolling in 6 figures.
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
The probability of someone with a PhD in meteorology (or something similar) knowing what they are doing with a storm is quite a bit higher than some random guy who thinks storms are neat.
Are there amateurs who know a lot about what they are doing and their hobby is contributing in some way to society / our knowledge base? I'm sure there are, but very few compared to the "random yokel who wants to video tape the storm because he watched Twister last weekend"
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
As a native Kansan, I'm sickened by these amateur 'chasers' - most of whom don't live in the real midwest (you know; West of both the Mississipii and Missouri) and are just visiting to enjoy a bullshit thrill ride. I would also blame all the media attention given to these aholes, such as Discovery Channel and the mostly worthless Weather Channel (haven to constantly pregnant photogenic meteorologists). Sure, they try to have one real 'scientist' as a pathetic figleaf, but the real point is the cool videos of destruction of the 'small people' and the reaction shots of douchebag adrenelin addicts. There is no way even one of these pricks lost a house or family member to a tornado; if they had, they wouldn't be engaging in this blatant adolescent voyeurism.
this is really dead on, although i have my phd, i still find myself thinking "shouldn't i know more about XXXXX phenomena?' of course, then i go and do the research... maybe that is the distinguishing feature, but then again, i think many of the non-phd folks here do the same.
Well, as far as Sig's go, Freud was a doozy.
Amateurs *can* read books. I read Knuth, Krugman, and other experts on subjects all the time - but there's a considerable difference between that and having a professor look at my answers to specific questions. And even that doesn't take into account the fact that I might not be reading actual experts - reading "Darwin on Trial" is *never* going to make me a biologist, but will actually make me think long debunked arguments are well considered.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Isn't "Tornado Scientists (who are Buttheads) with Storm Chasers" a fragment? Oh wait, it's a title.