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Tornado Scientists Butt Heads With Storm Chasers
An anonymous reader writes "Tornado researchers say amateurs — inspired by movies like Twister and shows like Storm Chasers — are getting in their way, hampering science and creating hazards. 'Hundreds of camera-toting amateurs in cars ended up chasing the same storms as a fleet of scientific vehicles during the high-profile research project, called Vortex2, which wrapped up data collection this week. At times the line of traffic caused the Midwestern roads to look like the freeways of Los Angeles, said Roger Wakimoto, director of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, during a briefing for reporters this week. "I worry about this as a safety hazard," Mr. Wakimoto said. "These people were blocking our escape routes because of the sheer number of cars."' Storm chasers say they have as much right to watch storms as Ph.D.s."
Hmm, sure ... as long as your stupidity doesn't get the Phd folk killed.
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
Agreed, the scientists started somewhere, just because the "amateurs" aren't being compensated and don't have a million dollar chase vehicle doesn't mean they have any less right to follow the storms - fuck off.
Mind if I block all the fire exits in your building and disable the smoke detectors?
...of controversy.
Who's building?
Since when did "Scientists" gain possession of the roads?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Shouldn't these "amateurs" have a clause in their insurance which automatically cancels the insurance if they do something as mind-bogglingly stupid as driving towards tornadoes?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Even if it does get them killed, every last one of the bunch stuck in traffic went there knowing they could get blocked in by other people. Who says the PhD types couldn't contribute to some amateurs getting killed? There's a storm that can put a toothpick through an oak tree: everyone running towards it is responsible for their own consequences.
For some reason I misread the title as Tornado Scientists Butthurt About Storm Chasers. I can't imagine why.
Bullshit, those storm chasers are not motivated by movies and shows like Twister and Storm Chasers. Everybody knows they are motivated by xkcd. See: http://xkcd.org/752/
why just the other day I was inspired to become a pilot after watching Iron Eagle III, and the week before that I took up the ancient Japanese art of Ninjitsu after watching American Ninja
I AM BUILDING, thank you very much.
As a chaser, emergency first responder, and media chaser... I can say that the problem is NOT the chasers but the "Chaser-chasers". The article references May 19th in Oklahoma where most commonly you could find local folks with their kids and dogs in the back of the family pickup truck taking pictures with their phones and point and shoots. Regardless of what the masses in Oklahoma think... just because you have an iPhone app with radar does NOT classify you as a "chaser"! On top of VORTEX2's caravan of 40+ vehicles, you have NBC/The Weather Channel following the VORTEX2 project that are not included with that count. You've also got the Discovery Channel's team of production vehicles coupled with the "Dominator" and TIV2, which both were captured passing miles worth of vehicles on a two lane highway in a no passing zone! Throw a few tour groups, emergency management, a couple media chasers in the mix... and you've got yourself a problem on the roadways. But those numbers nowhere add up to the amount of local yahoos who gathered up the family and put themselves in more harm than anything. This situation defiantly makes me think twice of chasing in Oklahoma again.
Yeah, but the chasers are just there to go "hyurp, issa terrnado!" while the scientists are there to learn about tornadoes and how they form so they can save thousands of lives.
Perhaps, in a painfully literal sense, but claiming that your desire to seek an adrenaline high is just as valid as their desire to do research that will save lives is high asshattery.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Silly rednecks, you would think they'd know that staying in their trailer park would grant them the best view.
Use a helicopter....what could possibly go wrong?
120 characters isn't enough to explain it.
Considering one of the so called profesionals referenced in the article (Wurman) got chased by a tornado a couple years ago near Stuttgart, AR? And it was all caught on tape too for his TV show STORM CHASERS.
but the "chaser-chaser" chasers. They put the "fun" back into "funnel".
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
A private building does not equate to a public road. All licensed drivers in properly licensed vehicles may use public roads and highways. If you don't like the rolling road block ahead of you, choose a different road or get used to the fact that those people in front of you have the same rights that you do.
They're pretty sure all that science stuff is an elitist, commie, atheist plot to steal their vital bodily fluids and turn them all gay.
dey took errr steerrrrmssss!!!!!
You can't take the sky from me.
It's evolution in action. By all means, let's get more of these "amateur scientists" in there, and get more stupid out of the gene pool.
Darwin will clean up this mess soon enough. These people will NOT be passing their curiosity onto their children.
If the scientists didn't talk down on everyone else... The Vortex2 project was the one that was in "Storm Chasers" building up all the hype... well what did they expect?! I'm sure they have a passion for what they are doing, but they're kind of coming off looking like pricks.... just say'in.
Those people have the right to use the road, but that doesn't give them the right to recklessly block the road from being used by others, especially if that use is to escape from a life-threatening situation. At that point they become as much of a reckless driver as someone texting while driving or going excessively fast.
I should note this was with only his group & Discovery Channel around...
Causing a traffic jam near a storm that as you mention, can put a toothpick through an oak tree, falls well below any reasonable threshold for "intelligence" never mind responsibility.
Perhaps the thing to do would be to use an off-road motorcycle and go for the big score - a dozen cars with nowhere to go getting scooped up and chucked.
and kill two birds with one storm
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
I doubt that many of these folk will become scientists.
Why they have the right to be stupid let's be honest.
1. This is a dangerous activity.
2. They have caused issues with scientists trying to do proper data collection.
3. They could cause problems for first responders trying to help people.
So yes the have the right but is it ethical or even morally right to get in the way of real scientists?
I would say that most of these folk should get the heck off the rode and let the professionals have their crack at getting real data that might actually end up helping people.
Otherwise they are just using their right to be dumb jerks to hurt the advancement of science for in exchange for some thrill seeking.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
The message missed by all:
FTFA - While people have no legal obligation to yield to radar trucks, he said that he felt the amateurs should have given way as a courtesy... it's just polite..
We do encourage that, don't we? Or is it fuck everybody?
Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
I always flinch when I see images of roads clogged with folks chasing a tornadic storm either just for the thrill or for the purposes of filming it - doing so is a Bad Idea and sooner or later is going to get some people (possibly a LOT of people) needlessly killed.
Professional scientific researchers have training, equipment and experience. They are fully aware of the danger the storm presents, and are risking it to perform scientific studies for the purpose of increasing human knowledge about these systems. They know what they're doing, they have things like mobile doppler radar to help them keep track of the situation, and aren't out there for cheap thrills.
People, you need to respect these storms. Sure, they produce awesome video. Great. Watch the Discovery show or the latest PBS special - don't go charging into the middle of danger! Does watching snake handlers on television make you want to go hunt up a rattler and start juggling it??? These storms are DANGEROUS. People DIE in these things, and cars are not a safe place to be. Particularly in heavy traffic.
Scientific study of these storms is a legitimate activity, and is more legitimate (and deserves precedence over) thrill seekers and people looking to make a cool home movie. If it comes down to it, maybe we should license storm chasers and fine anyone else who tries it - send some police cars along with the scientific teams. Make their special status explicit under the law, if that's what it takes, because people seeking knowledge to help make better warning systems are surely more important than cheap thrills for people with no common sense or survival instincts.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
only outlaws will drive at tornadoes!
....
works for me...
we need a word for when this happens: torna-doh!
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
Given that the amateurs are just there for kicks, they should know and accept that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation.
The PhDs also know that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation, but they are doing so to increase the sum of human knowledge, which makes it slightly more worthwhile.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
What this article fails to mention is one of the reasons Vortex2 even got a go was partially because of the success and semi-stardom Dr. Josh Wurman got from participating in "Storm Chasers".
The publicity that show generated for them no doubt helped lube the federal funding money chute.
Besides, you can't just declare martial law and saw "No one can storm chase". There's no solution that will ever be enacted that ends with making it illegal, so you may as well stop bitching about it and simply work with the other guys. I'm amazed there isn't a federal call center or something for these chasers to all phone in to, and a website with realtime dopplar radar provided to them. The faster these guys report a tornado on a ground, the easier it is for the weather people to push a button for a siren or some other event.
This just sounds like sour grapes. You could see the annoyance on the part of the "funded" scientist when that little no-name crew successfully flew a model airplane around a tornado and dropped sensors into it. The fact that was done on a budget put together by selling Tornado videos to news channels sounds like a win/win for me. Took none of my tax dollars, and reaped novel data.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
The message missed by all:
FTFA - ...
Slashdoters don't RTFA, and you expect amateurs to do so?
Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
Pretty sure anyone with eyes or ears can spot a tornado, bro.
These "amateurs" must learn to respect the almighty power and authority of Science and those that do it's works! They must not interfere with the great works of our Scientists for they operate under the authority of the power of Logic. Science damn these tornado chasing fools for their misaken ways!
It's fuck everybody.
Did you miss the meeting?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
tom skilling had a lot of fun doing this!
http://www.chicagoweathercenter.com/severe/stormchase/
I stopped reading the article when I read "Dr. Wurman said that amateur storm chasers rarely offer useful information"
It always bothers me when people with PhD's discount the information provided by amateurs. More than 1/2 the PhD's I have worked with tend to have a belief that if you do not have a degree in the subject you can not possibly provide any useful research data or that there is no way you can know what you are talking about.
If they are worried about the numbers of amateur storm chasers maybe they should have a conference with them and train them in proper data collection and where to report it. Then the people they think are "getting in the way" could be helpful and add to the body of scientific knowledge.
But then they would have to admit that anyone can do science and not just the PhD's. We can't have that, we have to pack the class rooms so they can get paid.
Well, the PhDs have a little thing called KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING.
But apparently not the consequences their ignorance and sense of entitlement force on others.
The point is that the roads are not the property of the scientists. They might just as well complain about people trying to avoid the storm by using the roads. Perhaps the scientists are interfering with proper public escape routes.
Why assume anyone out on the roads are random idiots?
Many are film makers producing documentary TV shows.
Some are probably competing scientists.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
...this is a rant just dripping with irony.
No! We should be the only ones allowed to flaunt the law or good sensee.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Shouldn't that be, "Tornado Scientists: Butt Heads With Storm Chasers"?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Since when did firemen? Would you support this behavior in pyromaniacs?
Are you sure? I have a PhD and sometimes, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just making it up as I go along...
Lucky for society my PhD isn't related to my job.
It is, still, a free country. If storm chasers are interfering with your data collection, you are just going to have to factor them into your plans.
You can ask them to stay out of your way, but that's all you can do: ask.
It doesn't matter, the roads are public and this is America. Just because they have a PHD doesn't suddenly give them more rights than anyone else. As long as the police don't tell them to leave (and talking to cop friends after Twister came out they think BOTH the scientists and storm chasers are fucking nuts) then the scientists can just learn to deal or go somewhere else.
Welcome to America, where public is public and we ALL have the right to use the roads, even in times of emergency. And what if I am getting the fuck away from one, and a scientists blocks my way? They are creating just as much of a hazard as the storm chasers, and the little roads in places like OK and AR simply are gonna be crowded...period.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
Now that would be some good TV!
In Soviet Russia, storm chases you
Scientists engaging in (largely redundant) research are not an emergency service.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Lets see.. maybe because storm chasers have been doing it for far longer than scientists (on the order of many many decades), and have it down to a fine art. They have contributed greatly to our understanding of severe thunderstorm dynamics, more than most scientists have, Im afraid. Im talking about real storm chasers here, the ones that know a thing or two about atmospheric physics, reading the weather signs, and taking appropriate action. Scientists, seeing their success, are now jumping on the bandwagon, and claiming a divine right to the roads - get out of town.
They may have a (weak) point about the real amateurs, but they really do not have any right to claim the roads, nor the storms.
If they are professionals , they will find a way around the problem.
From the news reports, it is clear that tornadoes actually swerve towards trailer parks... I'm still waiting for the scientists to explain this phenomenom.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
The fire service responds to emergency situations. Storm chaser scientists are just getting somewhere quickly to record data.
---CUT---
I'm amazed there isn't a federal call center or something for these chasers to all phone in to, and a website with realtime dopplar radar provided to them. The faster these guys report a tornado on a ground, the easier it is for the weather people to push a button for a siren or some other event.
---CUT---
There is. SKYWARN is a program run by the NWS/NOAA, local law enforcement, and private citizens that lets anyone with some basic (really basic) meterological knowledge (what a wall cloud looks like, how to spot early rotation, etc) utilize an amateur radio to call in sightings of severe and tornadic weather using thier SKYWARN volunteer designator.
NWS will turn a tornado watch into a warning based solely on observer reports.
SKYWARN is a great program, IMO. BTW, most of those awesome tornado videos you see arent from scientists, they're from storm chasers and SKYWARN people.
This space for rent.
Solution, disguise research vehicles as dump trucks.
iburnaga.blogspot.com
He didn't say that, you stuffed your own definition in there.
real scientist.
Someone who collects data and applies the scientific method to it.
Most of these amateur storm watchers don't do that. They get a camera and take photos. Hardly any of them will do any research.
Those people are in the way.
You have a right to stand around and gawk,, but when you get in the way you are being a dick.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Researchers refer to their own fleet as an "armada," and it was made up of about 40 vehicles, several of them carrying radar gear.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
The traffic jams due to too many people trying to get pictures of tornados, are only temporary. Within a year or two at the most, a tornado will turn toward the caravan of cars and trucks, and a lot of people will be killed. Very quickly after that, it will become common knowledge (again) that chasing a tornado is dangerous and foolish. Then, the majority of people will quit this foolishness, and stay out of the way.
I wonder if the professionals could use airplanes, or perhaps remotely piloted drones, for some of their data collection. Is there some part of their work that must be done at ground level by a heavy vehicle?
But let's be honest.
The real storm chasers are probably not the problem. It the people that watched Stormchasers on TV and think it looks like fun.
Also so what if the scientists have jumped onto the bandwagon? Are they doing real science that helps people? Then it is a good thing.
And they are not claiming the roads or the storms. They are asking people to not get in their way or endanger them while they are collecting data.
Seems all too reasonable to me.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think if you read the article, you woudn't look like a damn fool.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You do realize that most of those successful storm chasers you are talking about are scientists who chase as a "hobby"? Where I work, if there is a good chance for tornadoes in the state, good luck finding a professor or graduate student as many of them are out chasing for fun (and learning). Many discoveries on how tornadoes work happened during these "chase days" by scientists watching what they love (e.g. - Markowski and Bluestein are two names off the top of my head).
Guess what?
In science you are not worth anything unless you have paid your dues.
Simple truth.
Now those dues don't have to be sitting in a classroom.
But those dues MUST include study and following real scientific methods.
All scientists worth anything pay those does. Including great amateur scientists.
If you don't pay those dues are nothing but a rank armature.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I don't think you know what a scientist is. Scientists are not 'just those people who have degrees and write papers'. A scientist is ANY PERSON who follows the scientific method taking observations to test hypotheses. So get off your high horse about 'real' scientists, 'real' data, etc. Without self-motivated, self-educated people like Benjamin Franklin, we would be deprived of many inventions and scientific advancements.
Science is not, and should not be, the sole province of pedagogues.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
...and that data will be used to predict the behavior of future tornadoes, no? AKA saving lives?
Oh, look everybody! icebike, with his infinite experience in Meteorology, has declared that Vortex2 is largely redundant research and therefore, it must be!
The PhDs also know that they are willingly putting themselves into a risky situation, but they are doing so to increase the sum of human knowledge, which makes it slightly more worthwhile.
They got those PhDs so they could get paid to do what the other guys are doing for free: looking at neat swirly shit. The science is a byproduct.
"These rank amateur egg-head academics are putting themselves and others in harm's way and causing unnecessary danger for the professionals whose job it is to cope with these storms. They have no business in the field and should stay out of the way."
Fire, Police, EMT first responders, 2000
"These rank amateur thrill-seeking rednecks are putting themselves and others in harm's way and causing unnecessary danger for the professionals whose job it is to cope with these storms. They have no business in the field and should stay out of the way."
Egghead Academics, 2010
"Hey Cletus, hold my beer and watch me dominate..."
Thrill-seeking rednecks and the Dominator
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
You know, I'll bet those guys with their fancy PhD's don't even know that research is redundant! Isn't that silly- guess all that 'book learning' ain't good fer nuthin' after all haw haw! Prolly out there, thinkin' they're gonna save some lives! Pshaw! Icebike knows better, an' that's a FACT!
I rode with an organized storm chasing group for a couple of years. When I say organized, I mean there were meetings, committees, bylaws, a training program, certifications, schedules, and procedures. The group had its own commercial FM repeater, as well as being authorized to use a number of amateur radio repeaters, for communications. You didn't just show up and go storm chasing, you had to go through the training and orientation first.
Many times, members of the group called in weather reports that resulted in warnings being issued. It was a standing requirement that we attend yearly spotter training courses from the National Weather Service, and many members of the group did have an interest in the science behind the storms. Many people in the group had a genuine interest in doing something for the public good.
However, many *others* in the group were deeply caught up in the whole thing; they'd take any opportunity to criticize the forecasters at the local National Weather Service office, the weather guy on TV, and local emergency management officials. They'd never pass up a chance to be interviewed, especially on television. It was common at meetings to watch storm chasing video, often of people doing 95 down some two lane highway, shooting video while driving. People would talk in the same breath about how much the group was needed, respected, and adored by local government officials.
I eventually left the group, because the training and certifications and all that were meaningless. While there were some genuinely interested people in the group, the people who founded and ran the group really were in it for the adrenaline, and the glory, and the TV footage, and the science was only included as a means to get better video. No one from the group went to school to study atmospheric sciences, or even took classes.
If storm chasers are getting a bad reputation, it's because they've earned it. It may be just a few bad apples, but enough of the sorta good apples follow the bad ones down the highway.
You can be a storm spotter, trained or not, on your front porch. You're likely to do more good doing that, than wasting fuel and polluting the air driving 150 miles across Nebraska in the rain.
so yes the have the right but is it ethical or even morally right to get in the way of real scientists?
<incredulous> What? </incredulous>
Really?
Get it, blow over... storm... blow... I kill myself. What do you mean, "yes please".
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
That was his point I believe. You get a D in reading comprehension. He was redundant though.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
They went to school, the feel they've "paid" for the right to be pushy and condescending. (Note I'm not a science or a school basher.. just don't like condescending assholes.)
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
"...is it ethical or even morally right to get in the way of real scientists?"
That inspires me. I'm putting a new, giant mirror-reversed-text bumper sticker on the front of my storm chasing vehicle: "Get Out of My Way--I'm a Scientist!"
I think you'll find that if people do something all the time over a period of years, they'll end up 'KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING' as a matter of course. It's called 'experience' and is not always related to how many books one reads.
I have nothing but respect for PhDs, but I doubt that much they learn in grad school prepares them any better for storm chasing than what an amateur can learn from doing it themselves. (And, get this, amateurs can read books too! I know, right? Who knew that you could read books outside of degree programs and still learn things!)
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
Nice, man! That's exactly what I was arguing, well spotted!
Sarcasm aside, I think you're stretching for an analogy there. At the risk of seeming very obvious: paedophiles directly and severely impact on the human rights of children, whereas storm-chasers inconvenience scientists (and there isn't really a right to do science without inconvenience).
You argue like Hitler, man!
(See what I did there?)
I don't really see rich repubs sitting in their basements talking on hams. Slashdotters on the other hand....
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
And naturally "they" need to do something about it. I could care less about the "professionals." There are plenty of obstacles during stormy weather. Debris and people just trying to leave are among them. So people want to storm chase. They should be allowed to. This notion that "someone" should "do something about it" flies in the face of freedom. I recall when I was listening to mainstream coverage about a trans-Alaska ski, foot, and bike winter race. Someone on the panel piped up, "They let them do that?" Who are the "they" and what gives them the right to stop them? Chase on, storm chasers! "I'd rather die on my feet then live on my knees!" - Skakenigs
Yeah, I'm thinking long term more useful data is going to come out of small teams like Reed Timmers using remote probes and synthetic aperture radar near to the storm in armored vehicles then having hundreds of guys collecting wind speed and velocity data around the storm at ground level and using DOW trucks from outside the storm.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
"For an hour", eh? I'll count that as a small "embellishment".. And you might consider buying a new watch :-)
Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
How much torque can you get from a state-of-the-art rank armature?
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
I have a tendency to agree. The "PhDs", including some participants in Vortex 2, are mostly people who have their either extreme video or tornado tourism businesses.
Sorry, folks, the roads belong to everyone, but ultimately the Highway Patrol "owns" the road, and yes, in places they are cracking down on crazed drivers, parking in the road, piles of gadgets obscuring the windows, etc.
Ultimately, I'd be more worried about some fly-by-night outfit rolling a van or driving head-on into someone either because the vehicles are poorly maintained or the driver is sleep-deprived.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Also,, Whats wrong with having more people about when big storms hit. I live in the UK and i know a few people who goto your country to chase storms. EVERY! time that catch a storm that has damaged areas they always stop to see if anyone requires help. Would these people prefer to be just left left for dead and only have a handful of weak science guys more worried about their kit than the lives of residents who have just had their lives shattered from a tornado? This is a pointlesss rant from a bunch of whiny so called scientists!
You would think, but that storm spotting requires professionals. Check out our local SKYWARN group.
Funny. I'm an amateur, but I'm also trained for on the ground reporting to Environment Canada. I really don't make a huge distinction here. But then again I've been having fun doing this for the last 8 years, and have been watching storms since I was 5.
Om, nomnomnom...
Their willingness to ignore safety concerns is in pursuit of knowledge and possibly to improve the safety of other human beings.
The amateur stormchasers, on the other hand, are just doing it for thrills.
One motive is far more respectable.
-
Also, the scientists are doing a job that's paid for (to a significant degree) by the NSF. Thank you, stormchasers, for helping piss away tax dollars.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
And, generally speaking, do so earlier and more frequently than the rest of us, what with them being a little confused about how the whole process works...
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I saw the mockumentary Rainbow Chasers at the Breckenridge Film Festival last weekend. This was about a bunch of low budget guys who cant seem to find a rainbow. (This was the prequel short for Kurzweil's The Singularity)
Thanks, you made my day. Granted, it's been pretty shitty so far, so it wouldn't have taken much, but it was still hillarious non the less.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
In many states, it is against the law to interfere with the progress of emergency vehicles, and other folks on the road are required to make room for such vehicles so they can pass by.
Put a police escort in front of the critical storm chasing vehicles ... that way anyone who decides to be a smart ass and get in the way "for a good picture" will get a nice ticket for their trouble.
Seriously... I respect the fact that others have as much right to view these storms as the folks making scientific readings, but there are legal ways to expedite movement through traffic. And I'm not talking about fixing snow plow blades to the front of the radar trucks, either. :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
The ranking system. I'd recon a smaller ranking system would have more torque.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Equipment or not, fancy degree or not, press pass or not, it doesn't matter. If somebody wants to get out there in the path of a storm, more power to them. I hope they are smart enough to take care of themselves, and I hope they are considerate enough to help those more stupid or less fortunate. But in the end it's nobody's business (and nobody's responsibility) but the guy making the decision to be there.
And look, if anybody has any more rights to the roads than anybody else, it is the locals.
Just remember that what goes around comes around.
Best wishes
They are both free citizens. Same rights apply to both.
I'd like to introduce your motorcycle to the fence. It's so new that it hasn't been discussed on /.
Except for the part where the traffic jam blocks escape routes and gets in the way of emergency vehicles.
Oh, OK, this is Slashdot, you didn't RTFA, right?
Amateurs: When you find your tornado, let everyone else escape first. You put yourself in the situation so let those more intelligent save themselves first. After this, you'll have a little more experience and you are allowed to escape in the next to the last group. Incidentally, your widow won't get your insurance money because it's not an act of God when you're jumping in.
Did you, in your rush to post, actually bother to check the stated goals of vortex2 before claiming to know what they were? From their front page:
The basic questions driving VORTEX2 are simple to ask, but hard to answer:
- How, when, and why do tornadoes form? Why some are violent and long lasting while others are weak and short lived?
- What is the structure of tornadoes? How strong are the winds near the ground? How exactly do they do damage?
- How can we learn to forecast tornadoes better?
Current warnings have an only 13 minute average lead time and a 70% false alarm rate.
Can we make warnings more accurate?
Can we warn 30, 45, 60 minutes ahead?
I know its hard to know something, but having the first google result- the project's home page- directly contradict you is pretty damned bad.
If those people who are blocking went there without necessity and someone gets killed as a consequence then they are guilty of manslaughter.
Everyone has the right to use public roads, but no one has the right to be criminally reckless.
The structure of tornado is already well documented.
The winds near the ground are already well documented.
THEIR warnings only have 13 mintues lead time, Storm chasers (those damn armatures) often provide running commentary an hour ahead or arrival.
Self serving drivel designed for more Discovery Channel programming funds.
I know its hard to pick the truth from the self serving boiler plate, but if the best you have is the funding requester's web site I'm glad you are not managing my funds.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Within reason, I'm fine with people going as slowly as they want, so long as they stay in the lane appropriate for their speed. It's really easy to find the correct lane: look at the lane to your right, are you driving faster than the cars in that lane? If not, move to the right. Repeat as necessary. Your speed relative to the posted speed limit is completely irrelevant to your choice of lane; only your speed relative to other cars is relevant.
If you are a speed-limit bigot ("Anyone who goes faster than the speed limit is a bad person, because that's illegal!") then you should also be a lane bigot ("Anyone who drives too slow for a lane is a bad person, because that's holding up traffic, which is illegal!"). The difference between those two types of lawbreakers is that the people who speed are just trying to live their life and get to their destination, whereas people who hold up traffic are insufferable douchebags.
Also within the bounds of safety, I'm fine with people going as fast as they want. Almost all fast drivers know that they belong in the fast lane, so it's rarely a problem. Fast drivers need to make sure their vehicle is safe for high speeds, and apply additional care and consideration.
This is a total non-sequitur from your comment, which I find wry and funny. I always take the opportunity to tell people that speed isn't the problem, but rather lane choice.
The tornado might miss the trailer park. By chasing it actively, with their children sitting in the back of the pickup truck, rednecks try to maximize their chances of earning a Darwin Award.
"Did you read the TFA"
That's classic!
Before you declare that so emphatically, familiarize yourself with poetry and push-pin.
You make a salient larger point. There's a good deal of lack of respect for nature. Whether it be sailing around the world when you're 16, going to live with Grizzly's, or scaling the Himalayas; good old fashioned awe is at a long time low. Technology is the prime mover I guess in counting coup with a tornado. After the encounter you bring images and tales back to the BBQ and share them with your (now) world youtube tribe who anoints you with adulation and esteem. I've been close to a tornado whilst exposed in the eastern plains of Colorado. There is no record of me lying in a ditch soiling my pants and I'm glad of it. Ooops.
That reminds me of that old joke:
-"next week is my dad's birthday, what should I give him?"
-"give him a book"
-"no, he already has one"
But that's not what the scientists were complaining about. There's plenty of room in the road for scientific research vehicles plus all the ambulances and other emergency vehicles that rescue the tornado victims. There's not room enough for the ambulances plus 3000 amateur storm chasers.
Thank you for this, I agree.
For best results, avoid doing stupid things.
Oh, thank God for that!
Can you please provide links for that documentation? The cost savings will be staggering when those stupid scientists realize they can stop this useless weather research!
You have a right to stand around and gawk,, but when you get in the way you are being a dick.
This.
It's just like when there's a big accident on the highway. If you know a bit about first aid, great; provide it. If you don't, well, you're still welcome to stare, BUT! In both cases, when the real ambulances arrive, get out of the way and let them do their job. And don't complain about how you have just as much of a right to be there as they do.
The structure of tornado is already well documented. The winds near the ground are already well documented.
NOAA and the NSF disagree, and they know a hell of a lot more than you. Prove it doesn't have scientific value or STFU.
THEIR warnings only have 13 mintues lead time, Storm chasers (those damn armatures) often provide running commentary an hour ahead or arrival.
Nobody can accurately predict where a twister is going to be an hour ahead of time, so, stop BSing- I'm not buying it.
Self serving drivel designed for more Discovery Channel programming funds.
You have no evidence for this claim. I have plenty of examples of amateur stormchasers/idiots getting into trouble and causing trouble because they wanted to put videos of themselves getting sucked into a tornado on youtube.
I know its hard to pick the truth from the self serving boiler plate, but if the best you have is the funding requester's web site I'm glad you are not managing my funds.
You made a claim about what their stated goals were, and now say that I can't use their words to contradict you? Get a dictionary and look up the word "stated", genius.
Is google down in your area:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~epsas/dynamics/vortex/structure.pdf
http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0404004
http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/tornado/A_self_organised_structure_for_the_tornado.html
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/21580.pdf
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/594363/19397/Tornadic-thunderstorm-The-rotating-updraft-that-produces-the-tornado-extends
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/publications/edwards/hcr3may.htm
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Except you're missing a pretty important point.
Sure, everyone's got a right to the road. Thing is these amateurs are getting in the way of people who are trying to study this shit so we can better understand and so better prepare and warn people of disaster.
In other words, the amateurs have their heads up their asses. Yeah, they have as much right as the PhDs to be there, but what they SHOULD do, were they decent people, is concede that people other than themselves are better able to do better work and that because of this they should allow them better access.
If someone's choking to death, only an asshole would stand in the way of trained paramedics and claim that they have just as much right to stand there as the paramedic. That's a thin analogy but still works -- get the hell out of the way of the professionals, they know what they're doing more than you do.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
The correct word is flout, not flaunt.
The difference between 'experience' and 'training' is a syllabus. It may surprise you to learn that everything that can be considered a skill that people do now at one time had to be done by people who had nobody to learn from and 'didn't know what they were doing' simply because they were the first to do it. A human being with initiative can self-educate. As a species we should never denigrate that, as it has been the key to civilization itself.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
This isn't about rights. Nobody's saying they don't have the right to do something. Why do people always assume that criticism means someone is trying to take a right away?
The amateurs aren't scientists, and they're hampering legitimate research because they want to be "omg storm chasers." The dumbasses should get the fuck out of the way so people with a real reason to be there can do real work.
This isn't about rights. Why do people automatically assume criticism of a behavior means someone is trying to take away the right to do it?
This is about morons with beer hats getting in the way of professionals trying to do legitimate, life-saving research.
When government agencies like the National Science Foundation and NOAA funded their research.
I'm really surprised at all the Slashdotters defending the moronic "storm chasers." I thought this site was pro-science?
Thanks! I never thought of googling it!
Now why didn't Galileo just read the documentation Aristotle had written on gravitation? He could have avoided some nasty arguments with the pope! Or why didn't Einstein read what Lorenz had written on relativity? Or why did Schockley, Bardeen, and Brattain invent the transistor? Vacuum tubes were extremely well documented in 1947. I could go on all night.
Sigh. I guess 640 kbytes will always be enough for somebody...
Are you sure? I have a PhD and sometimes, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just making it up as I go along...
When you graduate from high school you know everything.
When you graduate from college you realize you don't actually know everything.
When you get a masters' degree you realize you don't know *anything*.
When you get a PhD you realize nobody else does, either.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Maybe so, but what I meant by "scientists" are people not it not in their time off. I have nothing against them finally getting some funding to study it properly, but credit is due where it is due, and chasers have as much right to be out there as they do. Giving way would be nice, and yes, I would probably do so in the interest of science, but they shouldnt expect a perfect route - because there isnt one. Storm chase 101 right there.
Public roads are still public. If you can't handle some enthusiastic people, GTFO and STFU. Stupid cry baby "scientists."
Just like just about everything else shown in movies and on TV. And to think the media companies still hold to the notion that media is a reflection of society. This phenomenon of amateur storm chasers clearly shows media spurs people to do things they have never done before, whether it be storm chasing (how many storm chasers were there before the movies and tv shows) or murder.
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
Since when did "Scientists" gain possession of the roads?
No implication of possession was made, the scientists were simply saying it was rude and dangerous. Which, it sounds like it is to park across the highway in the middle of a tornado!
Not sure when the assumption on slashdot became "If you say something -should- be this way, you're trying to pass a law enforcing it."
I'm amazed we haven't had a fail of epic proportions yet where a storm changes directions and sucks up a bunch of them.
That did happen, saw it in the documentary "Twister."
Come to think of it, it's a little odd that the cinematography from inside the car as it's being destroyed is so great. You'd think the cameraman would be afraid for his own life, or the camera would cut out or something. Another eye opener is that some B list celebrities conduct research on tornadoes. Weird...
As Einstein famously pointed out, "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?"
From the news reports, it is clear that tornadoes actually swerve towards trailer parks... I'm still waiting for the scientists to explain this phenomenom.
When large numbers of beer bellies accumulate in a relatively small area, their sheer mass induces a gravitational anomaly that attracts inclement weather.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
How much torque can you get from a state-of-the-art rank armature?
I don't know ... but if your armature is rank, you probably have a hygiene problem.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Morons with beer hats paved the way precisely because they were moronic enough to start chasing twisters long before the dudes in white coats figured it was a legitimate scientific endeavor worthy of their time and reputation.
See rocketry, flight etc. Not that the Wright brothers were "moronic". But the point I'm trying to make is that almost any field *becomes* a "science" only after someone with no knowledge explores it enough to establish some information that the science types can then study and then become scientists in the field.
So, in essence, curiosity and the sheer determination to explore something in the face of ridicule - something a proper modern "scientist" rarely would risk their reputation for - is something, most of the time, is better done by amateurs. Which becomes the foundation for the science that then follows. So, at least in my mind, the amateurs are discoverers of science. The "scientists" just study the science.
For the scientist to claim that they are the ones doing important work - f that. The most important work was done when someone decided to chase the storm just for the hell of it.
And wasn't curiosity an essential part of science?
If an amateur develops a safer way to get closer to the storm - is that development any less scientific?
And please don't forget, the scientists and the doctors - if "life-saving" is the only dimension of human endeavor - have all failed miserably: every single human being dies.
Even if it does get them killed, every last one of the bunch stuck in traffic went there knowing they could get blocked in by other people. Who says the PhD types couldn't contribute to some amateurs getting killed? There's a storm that can put a toothpick through an oak tree: everyone running towards it is responsible for their own consequences.
Well, clearly the PHD's just need to call "dibs" on the tornados, blocking the "amateurs" from chasing.
They should call "shotgun". And if the amateurs get in the way, they can always use that shotgun.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
If you mean "pro-science" as in For science - I can't speak for everyone but I am certainly for it. If you're talking about "professional-science", that I have issues with. That pun seems to fit well with the gist of what's going on here...
If, to be scientific, you have to be blessed with a degree, and that amateurs have better yield to the coat-ed ones - fuck that. If it weren't for the amateurs, their wouldn't even be a "science". In every scientific field, you'll find that amateurs beat a path that the "science" guys then walk on and ask the amateurs to get the hell off of. Prime example: rocketry. If the amateurs had never started down that path, none of the scientists would dare bet their careers on something so "unworthy" of their knowledge. It takes someone with more curiosity than existing wisdom to start something that then goes on to become "science".
In my mind, given the way "scientists" are choosing to distance and differentiate themselves from the rank amateurs, just means that the word scientist has evolved to mean "a career guy that cannot afford curiosity" and "amateur" to mean "a scientist with more curiosity than knowledge".
Well then don't flout your superior command of the English language.
Considering the beliefs of people who are near tornados, you can bet they won't.
Yeah, it takes a good 80 seconds for a car to pass me at 40+ mph... ooooo-kayyyyy...
Yeah, but without an EPA permit, they will shut off your tornado containment field.
The problem is that this argument can be applied to *any* situation, not just storm-chasing...
For instance, any time there is traffic/congestion, everybody involved is "causing problems for first responders to help people" (blocking the road by existing, changing lanes suddenly, etc.) and are "engaging in a dangerous activity" (driving in public). However, blaming the participants in a massively long traffic jam caused by e.g. an accident is not really justified, as you'd need to argue that they "have no right to be there" (out driving) because they're not there on "official" business. But, what's official business? Associated with their job, which contributes to local/global commerce? But, then there would be no place for leisure. So, assign everyone some leisure time. Then how do you decide which people are on the road on "official" leisure time versus clandestine leisure time? You would have to construct some national, nay, global schedule to determine when people are/aren't on leisure time, and require them to report it. And then everything could be controlled from a central control room with a large screen with a map of the world on it, and employ tens of thousands of analysts to optimize the oversight of all people's movement in the world. And then we wouldn't even need stop signs, everyone would be perfectly scheduled to move exactly at the right time so they'd properly interlace with everyone else and there would never be any inefficiency. Oops, sorry, I've just possibly had the most exciting dream as a computer scientists, and seem to have wet myself (in a most inappropriate manner).
Yeah, but the chasers are just there to go "hyurp, issa terrnado!"
[Citation needed]
... one F5 tornado taking a sudden left across a highway clogged by storm chasers will pretty much solve this problem for good.
A hundred deaths and this won't seem so fun to the amateurs anymore.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Yep.
Why they have the right to be stupid let's be honest.
But do they have the right to be stupid?
No one thinks it unusual when roads are closed to all non-essential travel because of weather conditions or other hazards.
Scientists do not have a monopoly on access to public places. If they are concerned for their safety, they should leave, or not go in the first place. Being a scientists does not make you a "better" person and does not entitle you to privileged access to anything.
I agree.
Because they don't stay where they belong, they end up killing 2 nerds with 1 storm. What turn of events!
testing out my trending skills
Occam's Razor.
God wants to take out the trash.
testing out my trending skills
Yes, storm chasers have the right to chase a storm, but they are blinded to the fact that they also have the RESPONSIBILITY to do so safely.
You have the right to go out into the street and start yelling racist stuff, but you'll probably get hurt badly if you do. Storm chasers have the right to be on the roads, but that doesn't mean they're not causing other people harm while doing so.
That's the LEAST assumptions? I'd hate to see your version with the most.
"Morons with beer hats paved the way precisely because they were moronic enough to start chasing twisters long before the dudes in white coats figured it was a legitimate scientific endeavor worthy of their time and reputation."
Did you ever consider that maybe there wasn't much scientific point in chasing tornadoes before such technology as mobile doppler radar and the like? Of course, I suspect that scientists have been in the field with cameras and video for a long time.
"The most important work was done when someone decided to chase the storm just for the hell of it."
The arrogance is strong in that one...
"If an amateur develops a safer way to get closer to the storm - is that development any less scientific?"
Not if it is published or otherwise distributed. Research is worthless if nobody knows about it. It also helps if it is useful.
I don't have much regard for the stormchasers. Having said that, I don't have much sympathy for the researchers. It's the price they pay for being hyped as the second coming by the Weather Channel.
Yeah, they have as much right as the PhDs to be there, but what they SHOULD do, were they decent people, is concede that people other than themselves are better able to do better work and that because of this they should allow them better access.
Uh huh. Some professor somewhere wants to get his name published in a certain magazine, so that he can get another grant, a little more prestige and a bigger office, and people should move out of the way for him?
I don't buy this crap about PhDs working to save lives. They're people, just like everyone else - sure, some are going to be doing it for altruistic purposes, but others will be doing it because they see a personal benefit out of it, and others will be thrill junkies.
The "intellectual arrogance", for want of a better term, that I've read in these posts is amazing.
Then the scientists should chase storms in an authoritarian country where the government can dictate who can and can't be on the roads during storms.
Or they can shut up and share the roads with everyone else who has a right and interest in the storms.
It doesn't matter what the personal motivations of the PhD are, what matters is that they're going to publish data and we'll all indirectly benefit. The yahoos aren't going to publish; therefore, the greater good is served by giving the PhDs priority access.
It's simple fucking common sense! And letting someone who has a job to do do it is common courtesy. Would you be happy if people were driving the delivery routes of UPS trucks and slowing them down? What if it was your package in the back of the truck, and you knew it was going to come a day late and $5 more expensive because a bunch of dicks thought tracing that route was a grand time?
I'm not saying we should outlaw getting in the way of a data collection truck, but the people doing it are still kinda dicks.
They're people, just like everyone else - sure, some are going to be doing it for altruistic purposes, but others will be doing it because they see a personal benefit out of it, and others will be thrill junkies.
It doesn't really matter why they're doing it. What matters is that it is significantly more likely that any work they produce as a result of such observations is infinitely more useful for the society as a whole than yet another crappy close-up of a tornado on YouTube (if that) coming from that other crowd.
Yep, and if you don't like it then fuck you too. THAT'S the way society works.
There are as many ways as there are societies... but, judging from your attitude, you're from one of the less fortunate ones. Let me guess - Somalia? Alabama?
Nobody ever mentioned or should care about motivation for this. What counts is the collected data and the benefits we as a society get from understanding extreme weather like that in order to better predict it in the future. I don't care if the scientists do it for fun or because they love people or money (hint: it's not the money in science!) but I do care about the results. Frankly most scientists I know are very down-to-earth and approachable people and I'm not sure where you got your extremely negative opinion on them.
Oh come on, the example you give works for so few cases nowadays. Science today is different from "chasing a storm" or "try to fly using home-made wings". Sure there are some areas of exploration left but real science nowadays is a bit more complicated than the simple concepts of "chasing a storm" or doing something for the first time. Science has gotten so complex that it's (somewhat sadly) not realistic for an amateur to contribute significantly without years of training in most fields. I know it sucks and I also want the opportunity to explore something important but we first have to put in the work...
it would seem as thought 'yanks' need a bit of a history schooling on what chasing really is...
And so I present to those who have not already been enlightened:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/chaser
Exactly. They certainly have the right to watch these tornadoes.
...until it gets in the way of someone elses safety.
(Variation on "the freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins", at least that's what I was going for.)
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
I was just kidding. :^) I'm no expert comedian.
testing out my trending skills
Better yet, equip all these yahoos with some basic monitoring equipment to record information for you. It wouldn't be the first time scientists have used a network of enthusiastic amateurs for a legitimate scientific endeavor.
If you can't beat them, turn them into your army.
~X~
simply because they were the first to survive doing it.
There, fixed that for ya.
The amateurs aren't scientists, and they're hampering legitimate research because they want to be "omg storm chasers."
Denigrating people's desire to see nature in action as "omg storm chasers" and "dumbasses" does the public a disservice.
As a society we have long valued the beauty of nature. We create parks around nice waterfalls, forests, canyons, and other natural phenomenon because we recognize that marveling at the wonders of nature is a fundamental human experience to be encouraged and protected.
Unfortunately you can't create tornado parks. Tornadoes don't appear or stay in one place. Public lands and roads are the only feasible way for people to see them in real life.
Do people watching the storms sometimes inconvenience the researchers? I'm sure. I'm sure the researchers' "armada" of 40 vehicles probably inconveniences some storm watchers too. I'm all for a debate over whether to give researchers some special privileges in this case (it may be warranted), but let's realize that this is a case of 2 competing public goods and how to balance them.
Slashdot is very much pro-science. Many of us are professionals in science and engineering fields.
But realize that many of us were amateurs with a curiosity about nature, much like the storm chasers, well before we became credentialed scientists or engineers. In many cases that curiosity is WHY we went to work in science.
So we can sympathize with both the inconveniences the scientists are encountering, as well as the curiosity and adventurousness of the storm chasers. We don't think curiosity and a bit of risk-taking to investigate natural phenomenon is "moronic".
It's not even a fucking matter of personal motivations, it's about the work that is being done.
The amateurs out there are pretty much just taking pretty pictures. That's pretty fucking useless. The scientists out there with tons of expensive equipment and a deep understanding of the storms? They actually can gather useful data, can understand it, and can use it so we can better understand how tornadoes form, how they behave, and all that other shit that's useful to know both from a purely meteorological perspective and also, yanno, from a public safety side of things.
What the hell benefit to society are the amateurs providing? None? Then why the fuck should society approve of their impeding people who are providing a benefit to society?
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
I'm an occasional storm chaser, definitely not a meteorologist. I've been chasing a couple times, and I've only seen one traffic jam, which was mildly stupid, not terribly dangerous, and composed of about two thirds recreational chasers, one third more science-y looking types.
For the most part, when people are out there, they seem to have good attitudes, but in both the chaser and science communities there are some big, terrible egos that really have little tolerance for people who aren't doing the exact same thing the exact same way they are. But that's just whining, that's not the real problem.
The real problem is common sense, which is ever slightly less uncommon with the science crowd than with the recreation crowd. Both are capable of blocking roads, impeding traffic, and being a general nuisance. Again, the recreation crowd is slightly worse at this because there are slightly more people proportionally in that crowd that lack appreciation for their surroundings due to overexcited-ness and some of them just being silly kids and/or hillbillies out looking for fun. That said, some people who think they are big shots because they're "scientists", and the world should get out of their way, and the same problems emerge.
So, to the scientist community, I say, complaining about chasers is NOT the answer to your difficulties. Cooperation and education ARE answers (though imperfect as there will always be some yahoos out there being stupid). Sure, the science community has the best tools out there for doing legitimate research, but they're usually slow groups and many participants don't have the skill or experience to get to areas of interest like many of the best chasers do. If chasers were utilized as a scouting tool by Vortex and other search entities, given proper chasing protocols, and for those who show they're responsible enough, some actual data acquisition tools, Vortex could have a lot more success and everyone could be happier and have a good time too. Many chasers are really just a lot better at getting to storms (safely), than the researchers, it's just a fact (of course, it's also a fact that a lot of inexperienced chasers suck, but whatever, hopefully they can at least have positive examples on how to conduct themselves safely and respectfully). I mean, he may be a complete spaz that rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but Reed Timmer and crew have a LOT more success getting to tornadoes than any researchers. There are a lot of other chasers out there who are also very good and if treated with respect would be quite happy to aid in a research project.
In other words, CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?! (it's better than whining behind each other's backs, we don't want this to start being like that awful Twister movie).
you cannot dodge the quad laser. jumping is useless.
If someone's choking to death, only an asshole would stand in the way of trained paramedics and claim that they have just as much right to stand there as the paramedic.
That analogy would perfectly explain why police and other rescue workers should have more right to chase tornadoes than the average citizen, but it does nothing to explain why scientists should have special rights to use the roads. If someone is choking to death, should you stand out of the way so a scientist studying the science of choking can have a closer look?
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Yes but most of those people have not done anything but grab a camera and get in the way.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
"any field *becomes* a "science" only after someone with no knowledge explores it enough to establish some information"
Right, and that's ALREADY BEEN DONE. If this were 50 years ago then you might have an argument, but now that it IS a science, people need to get the fuck out of the way so that the real scientists can do actual work. You only need enough morons with beer hats to get the field going, once it's going, you need to get them the fuck out of the way.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
It doesn't fucking matter what you've seen in the past, that's not the god damn issue here. The article doesn't say "people should get out of the way of PHDs, the article says that people should get out of the way of real scientists.
And the people that drive the million dollar car do have a greater right to be there (unfortunately, not a legal right). Not because of their PHD, not because of their funding, not be cause the car costs a million billion dollar, but because it's a million dollars of SCIENCE EQUIPMENT that will gather REAL DATA. Doesn't matter if it's driven by a PHD or not.
The issue is that every other dipshit amature is out there blocking the way with their car so that they can take a few pictures. Taking pictures doesn't help, a million dollars of fancy science equipment does.
I think the real issue here is that because most of the public doesn't know what "radar" or "air pressure" is they assume it's worthless and that scientists are all just acting high and mighty and spending lots of money on worthless shit. People, wake up, you aren't that guy with a PHD probably does know more about tornadoes than you do, even if you're too stupid to know what college is.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Yup. Clearly if money is the prime goal one wants to spend 4 years in a tough undergrad program becfore moving on to a 6 year (on average) graduate program and probably a post-doc or 2, vs. getting a degree in marketing and having your company pay for your MBA and rolling in 6 figures.
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
The probability of someone with a PhD in meteorology (or something similar) knowing what they are doing with a storm is quite a bit higher than some random guy who thinks storms are neat.
Are there amateurs who know a lot about what they are doing and their hobby is contributing in some way to society / our knowledge base? I'm sure there are, but very few compared to the "random yokel who wants to video tape the storm because he watched Twister last weekend"
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
As a native Kansan, I'm sickened by these amateur 'chasers' - most of whom don't live in the real midwest (you know; West of both the Mississipii and Missouri) and are just visiting to enjoy a bullshit thrill ride. I would also blame all the media attention given to these aholes, such as Discovery Channel and the mostly worthless Weather Channel (haven to constantly pregnant photogenic meteorologists). Sure, they try to have one real 'scientist' as a pathetic figleaf, but the real point is the cool videos of destruction of the 'small people' and the reaction shots of douchebag adrenelin addicts. There is no way even one of these pricks lost a house or family member to a tornado; if they had, they wouldn't be engaging in this blatant adolescent voyeurism.
this is really dead on, although i have my phd, i still find myself thinking "shouldn't i know more about XXXXX phenomena?' of course, then i go and do the research... maybe that is the distinguishing feature, but then again, i think many of the non-phd folks here do the same.
Well, as far as Sig's go, Freud was a doozy.
Anyway, yes I was using PHD as an example, the whole point I was trying to make is the term "real scientist" seems to be misunderstood. The dickheads who are adrenaline junkies need to keep out of the way. They have a right to be there but as with any situation, you need to be sensible. However if an individual is out chasing a storm the people causing the problem probably aren't sensible in the first place.
That being said we have proven over and over again, it isn't always the scientist with the biggest grant, or the most education that provides breakthroughs. How do we sort them out? What makes someone a better scientist than another? Out of my way, I have a GRANT!
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Yes the do. Just take a look at the majority of posts on Slashdot.
What is really scary is the quality and politeness on Slashdot seems to be far better than on any "news" site I have ever been on.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I will have to say that I do disagree with you. The vast majority of people do know what radar is and I would even bet they know what air pressure is.
Thankfully most people really are not as stupid as Slashdot readers think. BTW the majority of people don't chase Tornado's.
Don't confuse the small stupid minority with the majority of people that really don't cause problems.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Yes resources can make for better data gathering.
That is why it is so important for scientists to publish data!
So scientist without out a massive grant may make a discovery using the data that is gathered by the ones that do.
And let's really face facts. The science isn't done during the chase. That is pure data acquisition. The Science is done back when they look at the data.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
So what you are saying is that all new scientific endeavors begin with the phrase, "Hey Bubba, watch this!" Which is, coincidentally, also the far most frequent "Redneck last words."
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
agreed, lately we have shown that the resources are only a small fraction of what generates a good product. The X-prize style events are perfect examples, or the breakthroughs in solar cells over the last 5 years.
But yes, someone with a scientific mind will be more apt to make a discovery or contribution than some adrenaline junkie with a camera...
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Amateurs *can* read books. I read Knuth, Krugman, and other experts on subjects all the time - but there's a considerable difference between that and having a professor look at my answers to specific questions. And even that doesn't take into account the fact that I might not be reading actual experts - reading "Darwin on Trial" is *never* going to make me a biologist, but will actually make me think long debunked arguments are well considered.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
And it is those adrenaline junkies that are the problem. The shame is they have the legal right to get in the way and endanger others and are the least likely to have the brains and consideration to get the heck out of the way.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I feel the same way when I am driving on the freeway...
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?