New Wii Menu Update Targets Homebrew Again

Nintendo has tried to block homebrew during firmware updates in the past, often unsuccessfully. Now, as it rolls out version 4.3 of the Wii System Menu, stopping homebrew modifications once again seems to be its primary goal. From Nintendo's support site: "Because unauthorized channels or firmware may impair game play or the Wii console, updating to Wii Menu version 4.3 will check for and automatically remove such unauthorized files." Since it's hard to bill that as an upgrade, they vaguely add, "In addition, there are some behind the scenes enhancements that do not affect any prominently-used features or menus but will improve system performance."

Comments

As a Wii Owner

[Beowulf_Boy]

I am disaapointed that Nintendo is doing this.

I quit enjoy my Wii, and have played a bit with the homebrew channel.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[redscare2k4]

As of lately, I've used my Wii more as a divx player than a gaming console. I can stream divx movies via WiFi directly from mi PC harddrive in the other room to the TV. No way I'm going to downgrade to 4.3.

Also, I can't understand why Nintendo does not support other uses of the Wii. It's like if Sony would actively try to prevent the PS3 from being used to play bluerays ??

Re:As a Wii Owner

[databyss]

My Wii optical drive broke and it's out of warranty.

Homebrew is the only way I can actually use it to play my Wii games.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[daid303]

The reason for this update is simpel. Backup loaders, the piracy on the Wii is insane. You can run games from burned disks, as well as from an USB harddrive. As every kid on the block starts to know this it will hurt sales of games (just as the R4 hurts game sales on the NDS)

Now, the homebrew scene doesn't want to have anything to do with piracy, but the homebrew channel is the first step in installing piracy stuff. So Nintendo goes to block that.

What I don't understand is that if Nintendo would just allow the homebrew channel, and only block stuff like IOS hacks, then they would stop piracy right in it's tracks. This will keep many of the good hackers at bay, as they have what they want. And will make things a lot harder for pirates.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Hal_Porter]

It's not about homebrew it's about piracy. Games consoles are sold at a loss and the manufacturers make money out of selling games. If people can run arbitrary code on them they can also run pirated games and that means the manufacturers make a loss.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[ajw_h]

But the Wii has almost never been sold at a loss.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[marsu_k]

What I don't understand is that if Nintendo would just allow the homebrew channel, and only block stuff like IOS hacks, then they would stop piracy right in it's tracks.

I thought the previous system menu update did just that. While it did remove the homebrew channel and such, it also replaced some cIOS locations that were commonly used to play "backups" with stubs. And you can guess how long that worked.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Jurily]

If people can run arbitrary code on them they can also run pirated games and that means the manufacturers make a loss.

No, that means a happy consumer. Unless of course they downloaded the console as well.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[theeddie55]

It's like if Sony would actively try to prevent the PS3 from being used to play bluerays ??

That's a silly comparison, it's more akin to if sony were to remove the other OS feature from the PS3 (no, wait, they did that already)

Re:As a Wii Owner

[LordVader717]

A happy consumer is worth shit if you're losing money.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Bert64]

The Wii has never been sold at a loss... To Nintendo a Wii sold for purposes of running homebrew is still a profit that they wouldn't have got otherwise.
Having a modded wii also makes playing legitimate games easier, for instance you can install USBLoaderGX and copy games to a usb drive and play from there, far more convenient than dealing with discs.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

god forbids adult games on nintendo hardware (and for a good reason, imho)

Re:As a Wii Owner

[bzzzt]

Bullshit. You can send it in for repair even if it's out of warranty or even repair it yourself if you buy a new drive. (google shows a lot of sites selling parts)

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Whose fault is it for choosing a bad business model?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you're losing money, you're not competitively adapting to the market. In a true free market, companies that refuse to meet the demands of consumers should perish. I don't know where this implementation of that system gets off chiding consumers for not doing what makes businesses the most money. It is a perversion of the ideas of freedom and capitalism. They should sell a more expensive console and advertise that you can run code on it and also buy high quality games. They could even advertise its portability, versatility, and scalability. They should then call it the laptop and we will all be happy except people who want control over their upgrades. For them you make easy-upgrade laptops and things we could call personal computers. Then everyone can be happy and surely no one would be dumb enough to buy the same thing pre-bundled with DRM and DTB advertisements. Surely.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Crookdotter]

But both those options cost money. Homebrew would be free, therefore the better solution as long as it's not leading to active piracy. Why spend when you don't have to?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[FeepingCreature]

I wouldn't have bought a DS if it wasn't for homebrew.

I believe you massively overestimate the amount of people who would go out and buy game cartridges if they couldn't pirate, especially if piracy is so very much more convenient.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, Nintendo's own games still sell pretty well on the DS. Could it be that pretty much all other games are pure shovelware?

I own some 10 games for the DS and I can tell you it's really hard to find the good games between all the crap. At least half of those games is from Nintendo.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[canajin56]

No, the first step to installing the pirate stuff isn't the homebrew channel. The first step is buying a Wii. Nintendo should eliminate that step first. This is just insane. Only a few years ago it was utterly unimaginable that hardware makers would try their best to lock users out of their own systems. When Nintendo tried with the NES they were bitchslapped so hard in court. Now it's got the weight of law behind it, it's a high crime to run software on your own hardware, and perfectly acceptable to push updates with the sole purpose of bricking consoles that have "unauthorized" content. Fuck you, Nintendo. It's not unauthorized. I authorized it. Where's the part where I can choose not to authorize Nintendo to violently update my system? That's right, they are mandatory, aren't they. You can decline to install, sure (though the EULA actually says you cannot, that Nintendo can install updates without permission), if you don't mind never playing any new games ever again.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Pojut]

^^^This. My DS is also my eBook reader.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[IMarvinTPA]

It is also more toddler friendly. No more scratched disks! Also back-up those games that don't let you back them up so your perfect Mario Cart Wii 3 starred mirror cups don't suddenly go poof while you have your back turned for a second.

Why isn't there better security on the "delete" features of games? (or better hidden?) Some games make deleting a save just as easy as loading it! I'm looking at you Rabbids go home.

IMarv

Re:As a Wii Owner

[TheCRAIGGERS]

This is the funny part. By giving me a very good reason to never update to 4.3, they are making the ability to actually play the games I buy that much harder. And when you do that, piracy starts looking better.

Yes I know there are homebrew methods for updating the shop channel. I tried to use them when Cave Story came out because I would very much like to give Pixel some money for the game. Sadly, I couldn't get any of them to work right. Besides, those won't help much when the new Metroid comes out with a mandatory 4.3 upgrade.

So far, I've been buying the games I play off my hard disk. Nintendo's actions are starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth however.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[wisdom_brewing]

Games consoles are sold at a loss...

PS3 - yes
XBOX360 - yes
Wii - No...

Each console sold is profitable, that's the beauty of the Wii not competing on hardware...

Re:As a Wii Owner

[loufoque]

I can stream divx movies via WiFi directly from mi PC harddrive in the other room to the TV.

It's fairly silly to use a Wii for this, as it has a low-quality output.
Better use an xbox 360, a PS3, or a box you can buy for 50 bucks.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Shark]

Keep in mind that the Wii (at least at launch) was the only console not selling at a loss. I don't think Nintendo looses any money when you only buy the console. They don't make as much as they'd like, obviously, but they certainly aren't loosing money.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Mister Whirly]

I just sent in my Wii for repair that is 3 years old that I bought used from someone else - Nintendo paid shipping both ways and did not charge me a penny.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[icsx]

Others sell their consoles at loss currently but Nintendo has been selling Wii's with profit from the start of it's release.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Phisbut]

I believe you massively overestimate the amount of people who would go out and buy game cartridges if they couldn't pirate, especially if piracy is so very much more convenient.

And I believe you vastly underestimate the number of people who would go out and buy game cartridges if they couldn't pirate, especially if piracy is so very inconvenient.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[alexandre_ganso]

It is not, when you are using a standard tv or when it is the only device you have. Besides, is not that you download hdtv movies all the time anyway.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

But developers expect a certain amount of protection against piracy from the manufacturers of consoles

Re:As a Wii Owner

[loufoque]

No need to download 720p+ movies to see the difference between analog and digital output.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[duguk]

It's like if Sony would actively try to prevent the PS3 from being used to play bluerays ??

That's a silly comparison, it's more akin to if sony were to remove the other OS feature from the PS3 (no, wait, they did that already)

That's an even less-informed comparison. Sony PS3 was sold as OtherOS as a feature. Homebrew Channel is certainly not!

This is more like Sony upgrading the firmware on the PSP and making it so you needed a 'magic battery' to downgrade again (for whatever reason you might have)... Oh wait, no, they actually DID do that.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[alexandre_ganso]

Not only that. Thing is, there are people actually DEVELOPING GAMES for the wii! Can you imagine that?

Ever tried to get the wii sdk? The official one? They won't let you. And if they do, it will cost you a buck and you gotta be a "already known and well-established game developer".

With this attitude, the only people they attract is the big fish. Wonder why the xbox indie and the iphone are doing so well?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

WiiMC is very nice :) www.wiimc.org
NES, SNES, and GBA emulation is very nice too :)
www.wiibrew.org

Re:As a Wii Owner

[daid303]

Because they didn't fix the issue, they tried to work around it. Replacing IOS with stubs is of little use if you still have the exploits in place to install on top of those.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a silly comparison, it's more akin to if sony were to remove the other OS feature from the PS3 (no, wait, they did that already)

Also a silly comparison Wii never advertised the Homebrew channel and never intended it to be a feature whereas the OtherOS was actually a feature out of the box.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[ookaze]

No, the first step to installing the pirate stuff isn't the homebrew channel. The first step is buying a Wii. Nintendo should eliminate that step first. This is just insane.

You're insane indeed. So the solution to piracy is to never sell anything that could be pirated? It's so stupid it's not even funny, if you wanted to be funny.

Only a few years ago it was utterly unimaginable that hardware makers would try their best to lock users out of their own systems.

Except Nintendo isn't trying to lock users out of their systems, they're trying to lock pirates out. Nintendo is not stupid enough to let pirates have an easy way. People that choose that way have accepted to do it the hard way anyway.
People that like homebrew won't be really impaired, and the true pirates won't be impaired either. The ones that will be hit hard are the casual pirates, people for whom someone knowledgeable installed the necessary software.
These are the true customers that can be put back on the right path to buy the content they actually want. Pirates and homebrew users are not real customers to Nintendo if they don't buy any games.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Alphathon]

Well that's just plain false. If you are comparing a specific analogue signal to a specific digital one then sure, it's valid, but to say there is an inherent difference (presumably in quality) between analogue and digital is false. Comparing the Wii's component output to the PS3's or 360's HDMI would certainly put the PS3 or 360 ahead, but in general it is possible to get just as good a signal from analogue as digital if you are using the right standard - VGA for example. VGA is capable of the same depth of colour, refresh rates, resolutions etc as DVI/HDMI. AFAIK the only real differences to the user are it's lack of 12-bit colour (which consoles don't even use anyway) and the fact that interference can cause noise in the signal. With a properly shielded cable, VGA will give an identical picture to DVI/HDMI at 1080p (1920x1080@60Hz, 8-Bit colour). The main reasons component is beaten by HDMI is that a) most TVs don't support 1080p over component; this is due to the movie studios wanting the DRM available on HDMI for 1080p video and b) component outputs in a range equivalent to 16-235 or something in that vicinity and often the resolution of the colour components (Pb and Pr) is lower resolution than the luma (Y). This is not because it is analogue, but because due to the specific YPbPr standard.

Besides when using an SDTV as the GP said, I'd like to see you find a HDMI port. The PS3 and 360 may be better overall solutions, but if you have an SDTV the best you will get is component (YPbPr) or RGB SCART, depending on your location, so the quality should be identical, or at least pretty close (depending on the cable quality and the software).

Re:As a Wii Owner

[snowraver1]

I was going to post this:

This same crap is happening with the auto companies. I want a car that flys, but they say **ooo, but we aren't in the market for flying cars**. That's bullcrap. In a free market, consumers should get what they want. Want to know what is even worse? When I added wings and jet engine to my car, the government got on my case about my car not being "road worthy".

But want to post this too:

They should sell a more expensive console and advertise that you can run code on it and also buy high quality games. They could even advertise its portability, versatility, and scalability. They should then call it the laptop[...]

They DO call something like that a laptop.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[databyss]

I "repaired" it for free with homebrew.

I already bought the console and games, why exactly should I have to pay "rent" to keep using it?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[loufoque]

So basically, high quality analog equipment can transmit media as good as cheap digital equipment.
Thank you for your input (pun intended).

In truth, I have a Wii and a component cable I got from Nintendo (for an expensive price), and I pretty often notice artefacts and other forms of noise. Never happened to me even with a cheap HDMI cable.

if you have an SDTV the best you will get is component (YPbPr) or RGB SCART, depending on your location

Or DVI, which is as good as HDMI for me.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[FeepingCreature]

And I believe you underestimate the convenience bonus of having all your games on a single cartridge. :)

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Moryath]

Funny. Nintendo charged me an arm and a leg to repair a Wii that was dying with a KNOWN engineering flaw (their fucking faulty heatsink that caused the video hardware to develop flicker pixels everywhere) when it was just 1 year, 3 months old.

And then I had to get 4 people deep into their support line a year later, when their "system update" caused the thing to not properly find my local wireless network. Turns out something they had "upgraded" in their code had broken compatibility with my router's configuration (if your router's IP isn't also defined as the DNS for the Wii, it breaks) - of course, nowhere did the update's documentation mention this, and the three guys before the competent one kept saying I should ship the wii to them again and pay out for a "repair" a second time.

So I'd have to say either you are the luckiest guy in the world and found someone willing to do something for you that they do for nobody else, or else you're a Nintendo plant lying out your ass.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Moryath]

I can't tell if a "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin..." reference, or a "It was as if millions of nerds had suddenly cried out DO NOT WANT..." reference, is more appropriate.

Big N sure knows how to turn around and fuck their fans right up the ass. It's amazing that the company can be so dysfunctional as to make great franchises that people love, and yet at the same time pull dick moves like this over and over again that make people hate them with burning passion.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Volante3192]

...or when it is the only device you have.

I want my toaster to make coffee as well, and I don't want to get another piece of kit because I already have a toaster and it should do everything I want it to.

Or you can accept the fact that sometimes hardware has limitations and you need to get another piece of kit.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

You are trying to argue that because of hardware sales Nintendo shouldn't try to guarantee game producers (remember Nintendo is one too) a profit. If producer's don't make a profit, they would be less inclined to produce for the system and that would equal less licensing.

There also seems to be another aspect you forgot (like many here). Nintendo only has its game production. They don't have software or hardware sales that the other competing companies have that can balance out loss they suffer from selling their systems at a loss.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[geekboy642]

I want my toaster to make coffee as well,

Here you go.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Mister Whirly]

Not a plant, and to be honest, I was just as surprised it was that easy. They sent me a printable pre-paid shipping label to send it to them, and paid the shipping to send it back as well. If you care, I was getting the "Unable to read disc" error on dual-layer DVD games. They had my Wii in-shop for exactly one day, and then it was sent back out. They also used 2 day shipping both ways, so I was only without my Wii less than a week. This is the only experience I have had so far with Nintendo customer support, but I can say I have no complaints at all.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Velex]

Except Nintendo isn't trying to lock users out of their systems, they're trying to lock pirates out.

I bought a piece of hardware. That makes me the user. Nintendo should be thankful that I wanted to play Monster Hunter 3 that bad. Too bad the rest of the games for Wii are shit, so I'd like to use my hardware to play some of those old DOS games out there. It's irrelevant that I can do so with Dosbox on my PC. I'm the customer, and it doesn't matter how batshit insane my request is.

So tell me, where you work, if a customer asks for something you don't want to do, do you just label the customer a pirate? I don't know about you, but every place I've worked would rather give customers 50% discounts and sometimes even months of free service (or a free combo meal when I was doing the burger flipping thing) to keep them, because THE CUSTOMER (me) IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

In fact, you know what? Speaking of burger-flipping, my boss back then (she's an amazing person who went on to district manager last I'd heard) once gave this guy 4 free combo meals for his entire family! Does that make him a pirate since he didn't pay?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. You can send it in for repair even if it's out of warranty or even repair it yourself if you buy a new drive. (google shows a lot of sites selling parts)

Drive repairs are $75 plus shipping. I know, I paid Nintendo to have mine repaired. The second it breaks again I'm just going to hack it. My kid is the only one who plays it and it's mostly just to play old GameCube games or Pokemon: Battle Revolution. I can see folks not wanting to pay nearly half what they paid for the console to just continue playing, it really is a ripoff

I can't really see Nintendo's position on this. If I want to keep running homebrew they're basically guaranteeing that I can't buy any new games as they often include the update to the firmware on the disc and will refuse to run if you don't upgrade (e.g. Super Mario Galaxy did this when it was first released). I think I've plunked down cash for about 12 Wii games and an extra controller so I don't buy a lot, but more than average. I don't know if my use case is common, but they are locking me out and I guess good riddance if that's how they feel.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.

Proof or it didn't happen.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Volante3192]

It's only a burning passion for about 3 days, then all the homebrew community gets their updates and everything's hunky dory for another 5+ months before the next menu update.

Seriously. Look at the frequency of Wii Menu updates. 8 over 3 years.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Volante3192]

By Odin's beard, the world scares me sometimes.

Fine, add a blender or a rotary sander to that...

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the 360 has been sold at a profit for a while now, especially now with the refresh.

I think the PS3 was profitable before the $100 price cut, and is profitable now, but wasn't immediately after the slim came out.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[2obvious4u]

I was with you till "This will stop piracy in its tracks"; it won't do that. It may reduce some piracy, but piracy will always exist, the question is how much.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[munzli]

hdmi and dvi is the same thing without the audio

Because HDMI is electrically compatible with the signals used by Digital Visual Interface (DVI), no signal conversion is necessary, nor is there a loss of video quality when a DVI-to-HDMI adapter is used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Re:As a Wii Owner

[daid303]

I didn't try for the Wii, I looked at Nintendo SDK during the GBA time. And said, OMG, no way, price insane (30k or so). So flash cards that came out back then where a great idea. I love homebrew, really. But the piracy on Wii games is ruining it.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

The updates aren't mandatory you fucktard. And all USB loaders easily work around games that require certain IOS revisions to work.

I'm still on menu 3.2 and can play any new game. Most I have to deal with is the game crashing my Wii the first time I play it and then enable the error 002 fix or something like that. Most of the time an update to the USB loader is sufficient. And that happens conveniently over the internet.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Moryath]

I had lousy support from them when my Gamecube's motor died 11 months in (blame the college roommates for overuse at that point, but still). I got lousy support when my Wii first had the graphics board die, and again when they've pushed these system updates and not bothered to actually document things for people to work out what the hell they changed that's fucking with wireless compatibility.

Oh, and their USB-to-ethernet adapter? Yeah, what a fucking joke that little thing was.

I'm amazed that you got good service out of them, and I really, really wonder who you talked to. The only thought that I can come up to explain it is that maybe it was their last day and they just authorized a bunch of shit to make Nintendo eat money before punching their incompetent idiot boss on the way out the door.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

"... burning passion."

I recommend a good dose of antibiotics to clear that right up.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[spire3661]

Or you hack the software to make up for broken hardware. This is the most logical solution from almost any perspective save vested interests.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, they can't make a good game to save their life, so it's kind of a moot point.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[loufoque]

HDMI being backward-compatible doesn't mean that all HDMI features are available with DVI; it just means that all DVI features are available with HDMI.

It is therefore not the same thing; HDMI has more features (even when ignoring audio and encryption): for example, it supports 12-bit YCbCr while DVI is limited to 8-bit RGB.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Mister Whirly]

I didn't have to talk to anybody. I went to the Nintendo site and found a page in the support section describing the exact problem I was having. I clicked on the repair button, was prompted for my Wii model and serial number, entered them and was told my Wii was eligible for free repair. It then gave me directions on where/how to send my console in, and links to print the pre-paid shipping forms. This must have been a manufacturer's defect that was covered even out of warranty is the only thing i can think of. I fully expected to at least have to pay shipping to send them the Wii and was surprised I had to pay nothing out of pocket at all. Especially considering I bought it used and never registered/transferred any warranty information. Apparently it sounds like this may not be a typical case, but it sure seemed pretty hassle free to me.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Kehvarl]

I think Nintendo support is rather hit-and-miss. I've actually had good luck with them on 2 separate issues. First one of my Wiimotes died; Nintendo sent me a shipping label, then UPS lost it so Nintendo sent me a replacement mote. The other issue was when I started getting "cannot read disc" errors after playing a gamecube game. Again with the free shipping and a fast turnaround. No big hassle or anything. On the other hand I've had 2 friends with Wii issues who couldn't get good support for love or money.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that the Wii (at least at launch) was the only console not selling at a loss. I don't think Nintendo looses any money when you only buy the console. They don't make as much as they'd like, obviously, but they certainly aren't loosing money.

Exactly. Nintendo is usually rather tight with money.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[lena_10326]

Not everyone is obsessed over achieving 100% optimal video quality--particularly if you're streaming cartoons to your kid's Wii/TV.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[spazdor]

The designers. Whose fault is it for buying it anyway?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Mister_Stoopid]

I'm not sure I follow the analogy. Why would I buy a standalone coffee maker when I've already got a toaster that can have coffee-making ability added on with a simple, well documented software upgrade? Also, if the toaster had the coffee making hardware built in, why didn't the manufacturer enable it advertise that fact?

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

I lol'd hard.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[scot4875]

When Nintendo tried with the NES they were bitchslapped so hard in court.

When and where did this "bitchslapping" occur? All I remember is something like this, where not only did Nintendo not get bitch slapped, but the company (Atari) attempting to circumvent the 10NES chip did.

--Jeremy

Re:As a Wii Owner

[scot4875]

Shouldn't be an issue for you then; if all you care about is Monster Hunter Tri, because all other Wii games are shit, you won't ever have any need to upgrade your IOS version.

--Jeremy

Re:As a Wii Owner

[djdavetrouble]

There also seems to be another aspect you forgot (like many here). Nintendo only has its game production. They don't have software or hardware sales that the other competing companies have that can balance out loss they suffer from selling their systems at a loss.

For those that are not involved in the "homebrew" scene, it is fairly easy to load a hard drive up with hundreds of dvd images and run games from homebrew usb loader.
Even for the nintendo DS, there are flash ram carts that you can put boatloads of rom images on.
Nintendo is getting soaked. Microsoft has found a way around this by BANNING anyone from live that has mods.
On nintendo platforms, there is no penalty. you can pirate and the main downside is you can't perform system updates as they are released (bugfixes at this point, there aren't many new features)

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Sancho]

No one has gotten it all right yet.

You're right--that's incredibly convenient. And platforms where you don't have physical media are moving in that direction (Steam, DSi, WiiWare, XBL downloads, and PS3 downloads.) Of course, there are other problems with these, such as what happens when your physical unit fails.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me a break, the whole sold at a loss is a myth and stop trying to defend it. All consoles start on paper as a loss. They can try their best to keep prices in line with costs but there is no guarantee how the public is going to take the pricing. And this also has to take into consideration r&d costs, that even Nintendo, have to deal with. There is a point where all consoles break even and start showing profit and to think that PS3 and 360 aren't there is daydreaming. Nintendo got their faster of course, but to believe that the other two are wanting to keep you the gamer happy versus pleasing their bottom line is the ultimate dreams come true scenario.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a few years ago it was utterly unimaginable that hardware makers would try their best to lock users out of their own systems.

Kidding right? I remember sticking Donkey Kong Country (SNES) into a dev kit so we could "analyze it", and the cart detected it was not plugged into a straight SNES and would not run! Prior to this games would just run through the dev kit, unawares. This cat n mouse game has been going on for decades.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Alphathon]

What SDTV has DVI?

As for the expense of high-quality analogue cables, it's usually not that high unless you go ridiculous quality or Monster cables. The VGA cable that was included with my monitor (READ: cheap) is almost indistinguishable from DVI and my setup is right next to my Wi-Fi router, so there's quite a lot of interference. More expensive cables (maybe £10 or so for 2m) are even better. There is no inherent difference between analogue and digital in terms of quality.

P.S. Generally speaking even the highest quality cables for consoles are not up to par with much cheaper non-console equivalents - you are paying for the unique connector (which raises costs due to lack of ability to mass-produce to the same level) and with official cables the badge as well. As a side note the best console component cable I've used is the GameCube one. It is a fairly chunky cable so presumably is well shielded and shows no visible interference almost all the time. The one I use for the PS2 on the other hand (official PS3 one) certainly has evidence of it, being less well shielded.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[socz]

The problem is that no one is going to argue "Well I should be able to pirate xxx."

What nintendo should do is allow a homebrew channel, officially. That could help prevent having to go deeper into the system. If people want to make games for it then they can, for free. If they want to sell them then they need to go through their online store.

Obviously I am not an expert in the IOS or other details of how the wii work. But this would effectively cut 99.99% of the flames nintendo takes. Because only .01% is stupid enough to argue "but we still can't pirate games with the official homebrew channel."

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Alphathon]

I'm fairly sure that's not what munzli meant, but when the discussion is about video quality from consoles it makes no difference anyway - the signal used is the same so the phrase "which is as good as HDMI for me." is pretty moot; they have the same video signal so of course it's as good. Support for things like 12-bit is only available on HDMI 1.3 (not all HDMI 1.3 devices though, such as the PS3, which doesn't utilise it)*, but since all consoles use 8-bit colour it is irrelevant. YCbCr offers no improvement in quality or colour depth, it is simply a different way of encoding the picture. Besides, the only console that supports it is the PS3 and that's only when video files are natively encoded in YCbCr.

In a nut shell, when talking within the context of consoles, DVI and HDMI are the same (assuming the DVI connector used supports HDCP) other than the audio capabilities, as munzli said.

*Just to be clear, just in case you are under the misconception, the "full range RGB" used by the PS3 and 360 refers to using the full 0-255 range of bits instead of 16-235 used by many TVs, not 12-bit.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[shentino]

As far as Nintendo is concerned, there is no difference between homebrew and pirated games.

They both are competitors for commercial offerings.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Toonol]

Right. Nintendo doesn't care about homebrew one bit; if they install features to prevent it, it's only a side effect of their fight against piracy. Homebrew is great, but it's the leading tip of a large juggernaut of illegal piracy.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Toonol]

No, They don't block homebrew because they're afraid of losing sales to homebrew applications. That's obvious to anybody who knows what homebrew apps there are. They are great and fun, but they aren't competition for anything Nintendo sells. They block homebrew because homebrew is the vector that carries piracy, which Nintendo DOES care about, and which DOES cost Nintendo money.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Aklyon]

piracy uses different things.
the guys who made the homebrew channel deliberately made it hard for the pirates to use their stuff.
Nintendo should focus on the piracy and leave the homebrewers alone!

Re:As a Wii Owner

[wisdom_brewing]

but to believe that the other two are wanting to keep you the gamer happy versus pleasing their bottom line is the ultimate dreams come true scenario.

Forget the R&D - of course if you dilute that cost per console + factory tooling, etc the first model will be worth billions.

Sony and Microsoft had higher production cost than they were selling to retailers for for a while, pure production cost. Technology matures and production gets cheaper over time, but initially the costs were higher. They needed to price it competitively to gain market share, once thats in place you can change partners or whatever...

have you seen pricing along the lines of:

$XXX each for the first 1,000

$XX each for the next 10,000

$X each for the next million

You cannot get a manufacturer to agree straight away that you will definitely need a certain amount of a certain chip over say 5 years... You start paying more, and have contractual agreements that costs drop as they produce more for you.

Re:As a Wii Owner

[brolin9]

properly find my local wireless network. Turns out something they had "upgraded" in their code had broken compatibility with my router's configuration (if your router's IP isn't also defined as the DNS for the Wii, it breaks) - of course, nowhere did the update's

I received my Wii for Christmas the year it was released. It's never been modded and has had every update ever offered. My wireless router doesn't do DNS or DHCP, it's only used as a wireless router. All DNS and DHCP functions are provided by my server. The Wii is set to auto, no specific address configured on it at all. I've never had a single issue with my Wii's connectivity (or anything else). And, yes, I still use it. Received a new game (Final Fantasy:Crystal Bearers) for Father's Day as a matter of fact.

Don't know what broke for you, maybe it was specific to the router model? I know my daughter's Wii had pretty much no internet connectivity originally, unless you turned off the Linksys cable modem/wireless router's firewall. Apparently, there were issues with the type of firewall it used. An update or two later, and it's now 100% (although they don't use theirs much anymore).

Re:As a Wii Owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that interesting, you fucktarded shitdot sheeple are praising your precious Pretendo for constantly updating the Pretendo Piss for removing homebrew after you blasted Sony for doing the same thing to their PlayStation Portable. Pretendo needs homebrew as almost 100% of the games are geared towards kiddies or fucktarded fudgepacking, twinkie sucking faggots like you; and there is only a few fucking games for it at that. At least Sony has so many games for both kiddies and adults that it will continue to be valuable for a decade. As I fucking said before, Microsoft and Sony will give you 1080 while Pretendo will give you Piss as in piss on you with a repackaged Gaycube with a few added gimmicks, no HD, and almost no games due to it being woefully underpowered. Then again you fucktarded shitdot sheeple will aways suck from pretendo's dick anyday. Of course you shitdot sheeple are nothing more than a bunch of fucktarded fudge packing, twinkie sucking faggots who should go and slit your fucking wrists anyways.

GO AHEAD FUCKING FLAME AWAY OR
WASTE YOUR GODDAMNED MOD POINTS
FUCKTARDED SHITDOT SHEEPLE OR BETTER YET GO
AND SLIT YOUR FUCKING WRISTS
FUCKTARDED SHITDOT SHEEEPLE

Obligitory Simpsons

[Rik Sweeney]

Because unauthorized channels or firmware may impair game play or the Wii console, updating to Wii Menu version 4.3 will check for and automatically remove such unauthorized files. There are some behind the scenes enhancements that do not affect any prominently-used features or menus but will improve system performance.

Oh no, I said the quiet bit loud and the loud bit quiet!

Re:Obligitory Simpsons

[WrongSizeGlass]

Excellent Simpsons reference.

Re:Obligitory Simpsons

[elrous0]

Because unauthorized channels or firmware may impair game play or the Wii console

Actually, in the original draft it read "Because unauthorized channels or firmware may impair game play on the Wii console, and cut into our profits by not giving us our cut, updating to Wii Menu version 4.3 will check for and automatically remove such unauthorized files."

Re:Obligitory Simpsons

[stillnotelf]

Not to be rude to WrongSizeGlass, but is this really insightful? The GP's topic line is "Obligatory Simpsons"....

Re:Obligitory Simpsons

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't one of their official updates brick the Wii? I seem to remember something like that happening.

the Wii is dead

[secondhand_Buddah]

The Wii is dead. Long live the Nintendo Wii!!

Re:the Wii is dead

[d0a0b]

Wii may be dead but the scene isn't, even if you want to update (why would you).

some scenery

Re:the Wii is dead

[daid303]

Just a word of warning, waninkoko is known for buggy software that does dangerous things. Only the piracy side of the 'homebrew' people endorse his work.

Re:the Wii is dead

[Flipao]

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and (insert FUD statement here).

Re:the Wii is dead

[Canazza]

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and wreck the BIOS

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and overheat the system

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and remove the security on your WIFI hub

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and flag you as a terrorist

Re:the Wii is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good thing he publishes the source code then. But yeah, using that type of software will void your warranty and flag you as a terrorist

The same thing happened when I tried use a Canadian penny in a US supermarket. Boy, was that embarrassing!

easy solution

[Verunks]

just don't update, I'm still using 3.3 or 3.4(can't remember) and I can play all offline and online(yeah all two of them) games without any problem.
here on slashdot many people criticized sony for removing otheros, but nintendo is trying to do the same with every update and they aren't giving anything valuable in return, at least sony usually adds new functionality with each ps3 update, I can't speak for microsoft since I don't have a 360, but I think they are adding new features like sony

Re:easy solution

[DarkOx]

I agree with you to a degree but there is a moral difference between Nintendo and Sony. Nintendo never advertised running your own software as feature, and in fact from the very outset mostly insisted you can not. Sony by contrast did exactly the opposite.

Its fair to say anyone who bought a Wii did so either expecting not to be able to do home brew or knowing that the ability to do that might be interrupted in the future. You certainly can't say that about PS3 owners. Sony did a bit of Indian-giving Nintendo did not.

Re:easy solution

[duguk]

nintendo is trying to do the same with every update and they aren't giving anything valuable in return, at least sony usually adds new functionality with each ps3 update, I can't speak for microsoft since I don't have a 360, but I think they are adding new features like sony

Just a little bit of difference; the Sony PS3 was sold with OtherOS as a feature. Nintendo Wii was NOT sold with the homebrew channel.

Re:easy solution

[Eraesr]

You're kidding right? You're wrong on so many points. First of all, if you don't update you lose access to the Shopping Channel. I also wouldn't be surprised if future first party titles carried the update as well. Also, Nintendo isn't removing any features at all. At least, not features they put in there themselves in the first place. Sony's Other OS functionality was functionality they put in there themselves, something that could arguably have been used to promote the system. It may have been a reason for people to buy the system. With these updates, Nintendo isn't removing any features they put in there themselves or which were used to promote the system. They are completely different things.

As for adding new functionality, Nintendo has been adding new functionality to the Wii from time to time as well (dare I say more than Sony has done with PS3). This update is the first anti-piracy-only Wii update that doesn't add new functionality (or fix other problems).

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

While Nintendo is no more or less guilty than Sony or MSFT when it comes to pushing out crap updates, they do add new functionality now and again, like the ability to store Wiiware games on a SD card.

Re:easy solution

[Hal_Porter]

Sony did a bit of Indian-giving Nintendo did not.

Why do Americans say "Indian giving" for this sort of behaviour? Didn't the Europeans take the whole country away from the indigenous population, signing and then breaking many treaties in the process?

Surely it should be called "European treaty breaking"?

Re:easy solution

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft is actually the least oppressive console maker this generation. It's easiest to get indie games onto the platform (XNA) and they haven't taken away any functionality with dashboard updates at all. In fact, they gave us the ability to use arbitrary USB storage devices, probably in expectation of the new 360 coming out; you can ostensibly use the transfer cable to continue using your Xbox 360 HDD.

Re:easy solution

[Inconexo]

Games usually carry the update, but with homebrew you can try alternate methods for loading the games without installing the updates.

In the rest, I agree with you. I don't like Nintendo messing with homebrew, but at least, it wasn't a sold feature.

Re:easy solution

[NoZart]

yeah, if you live in america. In Austria for instance, we do not have XNA indie games. Also XNA restricts a lot what you can do (no media players, no emulators, no browsers and so on), and the no-limits-homebrew scene is only for people with certain boxes and you have to give up live.

So in that regard, actually wii is the least oppressive. Games still work online if your wii is hacked, even if you do not update. The only functionality lost by not updating is the godawful mega slow store.

Re:easy solution

[dylan_-]

Why do Americans say "Indian giving" for this sort of behaviour? Didn't the Europeans take the whole country away from the indigenous population, signing and then breaking many treaties in the process?

I'm not an American, but I thought that's exactly what it meant: that it was like someone giving something to the Indian and then taking it back.

Have I had the whole idea backwards?

Re:easy solution

[Teckla]

Microsoft is actually the least oppressive console maker this generation. It's easiest to get indie games onto the platform (XNA) and they haven't taken away any functionality...

The Xbox 360 has a > 50% failure rate. That takes away all your functionality!

Re:easy solution

[NoZart]

mod funny or troll?

Re:easy solution

[drinkypoo]

yeah, if you live in america. In Austria for instance, we do not have XNA indie games

Weird, it looks like you can create and even sell them, but you can't download/buy them. Is this true?

Re:easy solution

[Charliemopps]

yea, you lose the shopping channel.... until you run the "add the shopping channel hack" lol Seriously, the WII is the most hackable console in history. You can have the ENTIRE WII library on a single, relatively small external hard drive and run all the games off it.

Re:easy solution

[NoZart]

i never brought myself to pay the fee to be able to submit games.
What i somehow got that in certain instances you can even browse for the XNA stuff on xbox.com and get rejected at the checkout - maybe thats the same with submitting? You are allowed to pay the license fee but are rejected when you actually submit? That would be classical microsoft/xbox live behaviour. The Web part of xbox live is a mess.

Re:easy solution

[grumbel]

Microsoft is actually the least oppressive console maker this generation.

Not quite. The Sony PS3 allows you to install a custom harddrive, has allowed USB sticks right from the very start, not just five years later, support normal USB cameras, keyboards, mice, Blutooth headsets and even USB gamepads. And they had the whole OtherOS stuff that they recently fucked up. Microsoft only really has XNA going for it and that costs you $99 a year if you want to develop for it, everything else was or still is completly closed. Even something simple as developing a third party control for the Xbox360 will cost you, as its all proprietary and locked up with encryption, on the PS3 its standard USB or Blutooth.

Re:easy solution

[Just Some Guy]

Why do Americans say "Indian giving" for this sort of behaviour?

Because we won.

Re:easy solution

[Teckla]

mod funny or troll?

The truth can sometimes be funny, but troll? Saying the truth is now a troll on Slashdot?

Re:easy solution

[NoZart]

>50% failure rate is not the truth anymore. In fact this RROD situation has cleared up about two years ago. Maybe we get a new round of it with the new design, there is always hope for the MS-bashers :)

P.S.: I am in an environment with lots of 360s, and the RROD situation actually was even worse then 70%. But for the last 1,5 years, none of my peers had to send in their xboxes anymore...

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

You indeed have it wrong. The saying comes from the fact that many natives did not have the same view of property as westerners had, so they would trade away vast tracts of land (not always the ones they laid claim to) for guns, beads, etc. When they realized what they had done (or what another tribe had done to them), they demanded their land back. The westerners picked up the "Indian giver" as a term for someone who reneges on an agreement once he realizes he has made a bad deal.

Re:easy solution

[jochem_m]

That's almost an apple fanboi worthy argument. Nintendo created a console with a ridiculously tiny amount of storage, that everyone said was ridiculous, and never turned out to be truly upgradable. Then, years later, they implement a stopgap measure to slightly aleviate the problem, and suddenly they're awesome :)

I have a Wii, I like my Wii, but of the three, I'd say Nintendo is up there with Sony when it comes to screwing people over.

Re:easy solution

[jeffmeden]

Gosh, if only there were some sort of knowledgeable repository for information, sorted into easily searched pieces to allow for quickly finding what you want...

Re:easy solution

[Jaysyn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_giver

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to burst your bubble, but my Xbox red-ringed last December. Last time I checked, 6 months 1.5 years. So yeah, it IS still an issue, despite what you and your peers have observed. Do I really have to explain that $your_experience != $everyones_experience?

Re:easy solution

[Mister Whirly]

Do I really have to explain that $your_experience != $everyones_experience?

He said he works in an environment with a lot of Xboxes, and while there used to be a lot of failures, he hasn't seen them in great numbers lately. You then counter with your anecdotal evidence of 1 failure. Please read the above quoted text again.

Re:easy solution

[DeadCatX2]

1) You don't lose access to the shopping channel. You can still download and install all the updates *except* the System Menu.

2) Future first party titles? Homebrew game launching apps will check for a missing IOS and install it for you, without the System Menu update.

3) New functionality? Please explain to me what "new functionality" Nintendo has added to the Wii. The SD Card shortcut menu? Rearranging the order of channels on the System Menu? Updates to the Shop Channel?

None of that is compelling, especially compared to streaming media over WiFi and USB, playing DVDs, running apps that can apply patches on-the-fly so that you can add your own textures to the game...

Defending the System Menu updates by pointing to "new functionality" is like defending textbook companies that make minor revisions and then sell a whole new edition to colleges. It's a blatant farce.

Re:easy solution

[Minwee]

The Xbox 360 has a > 50% failure rate. That takes away all your functionality!

Don't worry, with the new XBox 360 Slim Microsoft has made some simple hardware improvements to make sure that the RROD will never happen again.

And if removing the red LED doesn't help improve reliability, I don't know what will.

Re:easy solution

[geekoid]

Indians where known for saying land was theres, selling it. Later it turned out not to be there land.
The Indians we gave goods to for Manhattan? turned out they didn't own it. Another tribe did.

Re:easy solution

[geekoid]

Ah, so you want to break the agreement AND have all the advantages of keeping to your agreement.

Boo -fing - hoo.

Re:easy solution

[duguk]

yea, you lose the shopping channel.... until you run the "add the shopping channel hack" lol Seriously, the WII is the most hackable console in history. You can have the ENTIRE WII library on a single, relatively small external hard drive and run all the games off it.

Not quite, average Wii game is around 2GB (after scrubbing), and Wikipedia says there's at least 1145 games; I make that about, possibly more than 2TB. That's not a small external HDD. That's a fairly big external hard drive. Still, you're right; having the games on HDD, the homebrew channel, and the options on the Wii is much more open than most other consoles of the same generation. (Yes, you're right; but I love pedanticism)

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Wii updates just require a few IOS file updates to be able to work with new games, shop channel, etc. Extract those from the updates (from a disc or online) and you'll be able to do everything again.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's obvious. It wasn't there land, it was here land.

Re:easy solution

[SQLGuru]

We've seen that before. Unrecoverable Application Error vs General Protection Fault. You'll never get a UAE again if we change the name to GPF.

You'll never get a red ring of death if we change it to the evil eye of Xbox.

Re:easy solution

[toriver]

Well, PS3s prior to the Slim, i.e. only the first couple of SKUs. Since the PS3 mostly took off after the launch of the Slim, it could be said the PS3 was also NOT sold with that as a feature. Also, the ability was NOT in the PS3 at the start but was added as a firmware update even though there was a stated intent from the very beginning due to the success of the PS2 Linux support.

Re:easy solution

[duguk]

Well, PS3s prior to the Slim, i.e. only the first couple of SKUs. Since the PS3 mostly took off after the launch of the Slim, it could be said the PS3 was also NOT sold with that as a feature. Also, the ability was NOT in the PS3 at the start but was added as a firmware update even though there was a stated intent from the very beginning due to the success of the PS2 Linux support.

So it was advertised (as you've said - it was stated intent) with the original PS3 console, then removed later... and you're saying that removing an advertised feature is somehow exactly the same as Nintendo removing unsupported, possibly infringing software??

Oh, and you're being very misleading about the SKUs. 35.7 million PS3's have been sold; only around a quarter of which are PS3 slim.

A fairer comparison would be comparing Sony's locking down of firmware for the PSP which stopped downgrading firmware, this allowed games to run from the memory stick, in a similar hack used on the Wii. The exploits were removed often, with every update. Nintendo have only 'sabotaged' the Homebrew Channel three times so far, and it's still possible to use the Wii without upgrading.

There was certainly a bigger outcry about Sony removing OtherOS, and even about the PSP downgrade lock than these minor inconveniences on the Nintendo Wii.

Re:easy solution

[zaphod8829]

Hey, hey, hey The term "Indian-giver" is racist and misleading. Please use "Native-American-giver" instead.

Re:easy solution

[Volante3192]

None of that is compelling, especially compared to streaming media over WiFi and USB, playing DVDs, running apps that can apply patches on-the-fly so that you can add your own textures to the game...

So I have to ask...why do you want the Wii to do that?

It's like asking why can't my toaster also make my coffee? Sure, the toaster was never advertized as a coffee maker, but it should do that because I want it to.

It sounds to me like you want an HTPC, which the Wii was most definatly not marketed as.

Re:easy solution

[Volante3192]

I'd say Nintendo is up there with Sony when it comes to screwing people over.

How do you figure, sports fan?

Re:easy solution

[Volante3192]

Microsoft is actually the least oppressive console maker this generation. It's easiest to get indie games onto the platform (XNA) and they haven't taken away any functionality with dashboard updates at all.

What advertised functionality has Nintendo removed with menu updates?

Re:easy solution

[gknoy]

... Streaming media over WiFi and USB, playing DVDs, running apps
So I have to ask...why do you want the Wii to do that?

The Wii is a small computer with built-in Wi-fi capability which already sits on my network and yet is also connected to my TV. If it has the hardware to support doing those things, why not use it for that? Watching it stream Netflix has made me super-happy, and I'd love to pretty much have my entire video collection on a server on my network for the Wii to stream.

Re:easy solution

[spire3661]

You said 'indian-giving', cue the "you are a racist" comments.

Re:easy solution

[spire3661]

These situations are in NO WAY comparable. Other OS was a real feature, the product was sold to me with Sony enthusiastically telling me i could run Linux on it. Not jsut wink wink/nudge 'it can run linux'. They spent MONEY to let me know that it ran Linux.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

MP3 support on photo channel.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

It has beginnings in early trades between Europeans and Native Americans, where the Europeans settlers thought they were receiving "gifts" and the Native Americans were assuming an exchange of goods/services. As the relations between Native Americans and settlers never really improved, the term gained weight as a derogatory phrase.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding right? You're wrong on so many points. First of all, if you don't update you lose access to the Shopping Channel. I also wouldn't be surprised if future first party titles carried the update as well. Also, Nintendo isn't removing any features at all. At least, not features they put in there themselves in the first place. Sony's Other OS functionality was functionality they put in there themselves, something that could arguably have been used to promote the system. It may have been a reason for people to buy the system. With these updates, Nintendo isn't removing any features they put in there themselves or which were used to promote the system. They are completely different things.

As for adding new functionality, Nintendo has been adding new functionality to the Wii from time to time as well (dare I say more than Sony has done with PS3). This update is the first anti-piracy-only Wii update that doesn't add new functionality (or fix other problems).

>First of all, if you don't update you lose access to the Shopping Channel
Wrong. (google for WiiSCU, or DOP-Shop) I'm on System Menu 3.2 and I still use the shop channel every weekend to add points to buy things out of the Rock Band store.

>I also wouldn't be surprised if future first party titles carried the update as well.
It doesn't matter if they did, preloader/priiloader exist. You can configure your System Menu to ignore any on disc updates and just run the game.

>This update is the first anti-piracy-only Wii update that doesn't add new functionality (or fix other problems).
Wrong again. This system menu update adds drivers for webcams. Only one game needs one so far, but the disc has the 4.1 update on it and there are reports of people running the disc on 4.2 systems and not having the webcam driver installed, making it unplayable.

Re:easy solution

[compro01]

Your question is the same as "Why do you want a PC to do that stuff it wasn't marketed for? Why don't you just buy a TIVO?"

Also, find me your HTPC that:

1. Is of comparable size
2. Consumes a similar amount of power (27W at maximum load)
3. Costs less than $150

Re:easy solution

[scot4875]

Yeah, except that every time I start up my 360, the first thing I'm greeted with is a barrage of advertisements. I can't speak for the PS3's interface, but I find it disgusting that I have to navigate away from ads before I can get to the "play game" option.

With the Wii, your game is the first option available whenever you start it up, there are no ads, and except for the mii/photo/shop channels, there are no other options on screen unless you chose to put them there.

--Jeremy

Re:easy solution

[Sancho]

In my mind, giving users the option of 1) losing all online access and ability to play most future games or 2) taking away functionality which was advertised with the box...is pretty oppressive. As far as I know, Microsoft has only added features in updates, not taken any away. Sony removing features I paid for after the fact is far worse than anything Microsoft did with the Xbox 360.

Re:easy solution

[toriver]

And you could - for a while. After the firmware update that enabled it. But you are in a minority - the people buying the later versions that did not have PS2 backward compatibility were far more numerous without that moving Sony much.

Re:easy solution

[bushing]

As for adding new functionality, Nintendo has been adding new functionality to the Wii from time to time as well (dare I say more than Sony has done with PS3). This update is the first anti-piracy-only Wii update that doesn't add new functionality (or fix other problems).

They really haven't. Let's consider the timeline of updates to the Wii software since the first exploit was demonstrated. Note that there's no technical need to update the System Menu, any version of IOS (the invisible "firmware" that implements all of the interesting security features of the system), or any channel at the same time. IOS fixes can never add functionality by themselves, they can only work around some bugs in disc-based games. Any update that claims "behind the scenes updates" or "system improvements" refers to IOS updates, most of which are to patch exploits and very few of which actually impact performance, despite their claims.

• v3.3 June 17, 2008 -- No features, added code to the System Menu to block the Twilight Hack.
• v3.4 November 17, 2008 -- Fixed anti-Twilight Hack code. Updated Parental Controls, and added USB keyboard to the Mii Channel (?). Strange attempt to block the default slot number used by a code example I released.
• v4.0 March 25, 2009 -- Considerable update to the System Menu to add support for running channels that are stored on SD card.
• v4.1 July 2009 -- Fixes an obscure System Menu bug. Added code to better block copy-protected saves.
• v4.2 September 28, 2009 -- First attempt at blocking Bannerbomb.Also added code to delete the Homebrew Channel and DVDX. Added code to check to see if a console had its region altered, in some cases forcing a brick (!). Improved region-checking code for games. Forced a bootloader update (boot2v4) that didn't actually fix any bugs or exploits -- it just overwrote your bootloader "just in case" you had modified it, and caused a fair bit of collateral damage which Nintendo tried to blame on "hacking", even on virgin consoles. (There's a reason they tell you not to reflash your BIOS if you don't really need to...)
• v4.2 June 21, 2010 -- Second attempt at blocking Bannerbomb. Deletes (again!) the Homebrew Channel and BootMii(/IOS), and patches IOS exploits used to install them.

The only update Nintendo has done in the past 2 and a half years that has actually benefitted users was v4.0, which added the SD support (as crude as it was). All the others have just been ways to fix various exploits. They fail at using the carrot; their stick is the fact that the Shopping channel will break unless you update, and many games will force you to update before you can play them.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the term comes from when Europeans first colonized the Americas. Some natives didn't have a concept for "property rights". They would sell land to the Europeans and then still believed they had the right use it. These disputes probably didn't end well.

Re:easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

The story is that most of the precontact "Indian" societies didn't have a strong sense of personal ownership. You took something as you needed it and were supposed to give it back/pass it along/trade for other things as others needed it. So the "Indian Giving" term came from the idea that "Indians" would expect things back after they had "traded" them.

Re:easy solution

[MagusSlurpy]

at least sony usually adds new functionality with each ps3 update

Since when is bricking considered new functionality?

Re:easy solution

[spire3661]

Being in the minority does not take away from Sony's culpability. Its like Ford disabling air conditioning in your car after routine maintenance. Also, PS2 back compat is not the same thing at all. The newer versions were not labeled as having it. At the time of purchase, Sony told me that my specific model would run linux. For them to take away a feature i paid for is illegal and i expect a $10 coupon for some Sony bullshit sometime in the next decade.

Wii Shop affects this too

[Robotron23]

I updated the Wii Shop yesterday evening (I'm located in the UK) and the final part of the message ran something along the lines of "If you install this update and have third party modifications to your system, it may render your console inoperable."

The store part is not even necessary to use - one can own a Wii and never need to access it, however for those who enjoy classic games and aren't keen on PC emulation the shop is fairly useful, and a gamecube pad works well with most (all?) of the old console titles.

I was thinking about the implications for homebrew as Nintendo rolls out these updates periodically just as it prompted me to install; a lot of people fond of old games will no doubt be more inclined to use USB-compatable old-style pads on a computer using emulation software and adapted games; the software is easy to find via Google. If anything Nintendo is cutting off a subsection of trade here; but causing inconvenience for a small minority is apparently okay as long as their interface and channels are updated every so often. But one thing that homebrewers may have to do without are the independent 'Wiiware' titles that aren't as widely emulated as the console games of the past. A few of these titles are pretty good; would it be possible to mail the creators of these titles to request a release for PC and Mac?

I know of one game (World of Goo) that has had a Windows release for awhile now priced a lot cheaper than it is on the Wii shop.

Re:Wii Shop affects this too

[daid303]

Ah, but homebrew can help here. The wii-shop update is just a full 4.3 update (it's the carrot on the stick for updates, every update contains a new version of wii-shop to force people to update).

However, you can update just the wii-shop with DOP-Mii: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/DOP-Mii

Re:Wii Shop affects this too

[Anonymous Coward]

Do people who have homebrew on their wii really use the wii-shop?

If memory serves correctly, back before the wii was released there were talks about the kind of stuff that would be available on there being free downloadable content for the wii. I guess they got greedy. Put that together with the company being the first to actually make money on the console sales and the profit margin of game disc sales and it sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

To think I used to be a Nintendo fan. Now, their Microsoft is showing.

Re:Wii Shop affects this too

[alexandre_ganso]

on a side note, I have a xbox and a wii. I've chipped my wii so I can use pirated games, but I didn't do that with the xbox. Why?

Cooking mama it is. Or sega bass fishing. Or the other hundred crappy titles I happen to have tried for the wii, for no more than 20 minutes at most.

Yet, I still buy a lot of original games. I have mario galaxy, the new mario, several guitar hero and its full set of instruments, wii play, wii sport resort and so on. The wii costed me almost as much as a macbook pro. But if I didn't have modified the wii, I would get just fucked up with so many REALLY EXPENSIVE crappy titles for it a long time ago.

Having the option of pirating games and choosing what was good and what was bad before buying them is what made me keep the wii.

Besides, it was bricked by my ex-wife applying the updates without reading anything. TWICE.

Re:Wii Shop affects this too

[SQLGuru]

You mean you didn't download the free "Everybody Votes" channel? %)

Yeah, I haven't seen anything on the shopping channel that I felt was worth spending money on. My Wii isn't homebrewed (but I was thinking about it just to play DVDs since my player went out and the XBox is loud when it plays them), but not any more.

Oh noes!

[f3rret]

A big faceless corporation did something horrible to its consumers! I am ever so surprised!

Seriously though, that is the deal with these big companies seemingly all turning evil as of late? I mean they've never been particularly nice, and they've always been inscrutable and faceless but lately they seem to be turning more and more evil.

Re:Oh noes!

[IndustrialComplex]

Seriously though, that is the deal with these big companies seemingly all turning evil as of late? I mean they've never been particularly nice, and they've always been inscrutable and faceless but lately they seem to be turning more and more evil.

Because if it works, they continue. It's called testing the waters, and there are two groups that could reasonably push back.

1. Consumers
2. Politicians.

The consumers aren't educated enough to know what is going on. They generally call US up and ask us to hook up their TV, or tell them why the DVD isn't working. However, they ARE starting to notice as my mother recently asked me why my DVD player didn't force us to watch 10 minutes of previews before playing the movie.

The politicians are not educated enough, AND aren't on our side. So I expect no help from them. It is simply not possible to run for election in the US and not accept huge amounts of money from 'interests' for all practical purposes. Perhaps the only way you could do it is to run for congress, and lay low for 16 years until you build up seniority. You might not get the other party angry enough to boot you out by outspending you in advertisments before you become a household name.

But of course, you won't be fixing anything during that time.

Wii performance not used.

[ifrag]

"In addition, there are some behind the scenes enhancements that do not affect any prominently-used features or menus but will improve system performance."

So system performance is not a prominently used feature... At least Nintendo realizes it now.

Re:Wii performance not used.

[Anonymous Coward]

For some time, our family Wii (used every day) has displayed an occasional message saying that "System Files are Corrupted", which requires a reboot. Once rebooted, the system works perfectly for a few more hours, or days. I would like to think that these improvements would include fixing this problem, which is clearly related to software, since a reboot fixes it. I would also be very happy if Nintendo find a way to block software piracy, since we buy all our games, and value them.

Re:Wii performance not used.

[Psaakyrn]

Now? Isn't Wii performance below the PS3 and 360, and yet still thrives? The knew this a LONG time ago, get with the times, man.

Dear Nintendo

[MadJo]

I, as a WII-owner, understand the risk of installing unauthorized applications on my WII. Why not leave me, the rightful owner of the device, the choice to install said third party applications on my device?
You sold it to me, why are you trying to claim ownership over MY devices?

Re:Dear Nintendo

[xtracto]

You, as a Wii owner can install whatever the heck you want to your Wii. However, you cannot expect such modified Wii to work correctly for the online services (Wii shop channel, etc) provided by Nintendo. You can't also expect that updates published by Nintendo for original Wii console will work hand in hand with your unauthorized software.

That is the reason why people on Wiibrew keep telling you not to update.

Me? I just had to pay 70 Euro to unbrick my Wii (I had an extremely bad brainfart and uninstalled IOS60 hohoho... idiot) but plan to reinstall Homebrew once I get it back hehe.

Re:Dear Nintendo

[betterunixthanunix]

"You can't also expect that updates published by Nintendo for original Wii console will work hand in hand with your unauthorized software."

There is a difference between not working "hand in hand" and deliberately removing "unauthorized" software. One is called "not our responsibility" and the other is called "sabotage."

Re:Dear Nintendo

[couchslug]

The only vote you get is not to buy those devices.

NOTHING ELSE. Complaints don't matter, you bought the device, they got their money, and they are in business to make a profit. Unless and until consumers reject platforms that are limited in such a manner, expect more of them.

Short version: "Tough shit."

Re:Dear Nintendo

[Exitar]

Yes Nintendo, who do you believe you are? Apple?

Re:Dear Nintendo

[Hurricane78]

Don’t you know the “retard assumption“?
It’s the assumption that all your customers are the worst kinds of idiots possible in nature, because, and here is the kicker, they are the loudest in voicing their opinion.

It’s the reason for all the “it’s so simple to use” advertisements. It’s the reason for Clippy. It’s the reason Windows is so cumbersome to use. It’s the reason Gnome and OS X limit the functionality and freedom. It’s half the reason why everything you can buy has miles of terms and conditions. And it’s the reason for that whole KISS (“keep it simple, stupid”) anti-philosophy.

The thing is: If you finally achieved to make it “good” for the worst of your customers, nature just invents better, and LOUDER, idiots. Meanwhile everyone with half a brain now lost a whole lot of power and efficiency when using it.
Back to square one. In a worse situation.

And the worst thing is, that most companies and even open source projects never learn from this. They just keep going on and on. Until the thing makes Clippy look like writing the Monads part of a mission-critical Haskell-to-C++ JIT cross-compiler in Emacs lisp. ...while being just as hard to use for normal people. ;)

I gave up. Nowadays I just quietly sit there, drinking tea, earl grey, hot, and watch them slowly kill themselves. :)

Re:Dear Nintendo

[elrous0]

Why not leave me, the rightful owner of the device, the choice to install said third party applications on my device?

Because a) they don't have to, and b) they make more money if they don't.

Re:Dear Nintendo

[tlhIngan]

Yes Nintendo, who do you believe you are? Apple?

They're all like that. At least Microsoft hasn't really done much (other than updates fouling Xbox360-Linux efforts), mostly because their piracy requires hardware mods to perform.

Sony's removed features as time goes on (launch unit PS3s still command a small premium because of it), neverminding the fact that Sony's also removed advertised feaures (Linux was heavily advertised, even at E3 to combat Microsoft). Nintendo's really only tried to sabotage homebrew, but that's about all their updates ever do.

And Apple, really, only screwed developers, probably the lightest touch of the bunch. (Yeah, Apple's got a stance against jailbreaking, but the same stance is shared by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo as well). Hell, I think the Apple screwage is far less severe than Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo require for game developers.

Hrm. Did I just praise Apple and Microsoft? *shudder*

Re:Dear Nintendo

[Steve Max]

I agree with you, but you misunderstand KISS. That's "keep it simple", as in "don't add unnecessary frills"; not as in "make it so easy my grandma could use". Slackware is the incarnation of KISS. You have very few automated systems, you can (and are encouraged to) configure everything using only ed/nano/vi/emacs. You can understand every failure easily, there are very few possible points of failure, and most failures can be easily contained and repaired. Contrast this with a distro like Ubuntu, which is easy to use, but not "simple" in the same sense as what KISS represents. In Ubuntu, everything is automated and every system is hidden behind a black box to the user. You get GUI tools to configure most stuff, but editing the files directly isn't encouraged (and could lead to some problems). If apt breaks due to a failed install/uninstall, you can't install software until you repair it. It isn't a simple system: it's a complex system whose parts lead to a generally easy to use interface, hiding a lot of unneeded complexity.

In other words, don't bash against KISS, it's not in any way related to your other points.

Re:Dear Nintendo

[tepples]

Then which device on which to play video games should one buy?

Re:Dear Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

The Atari Jaguar, obviously. Anyone is legally free to develop for it.

The homebrew community lives on..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly for Nintendo there are already two exploits known to work on 4.3U, this one (http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Smash_Stack) and this one (http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Indiana_Pwns). Granted you have to have a copy of the game to use them but for most people that is not a problem.

The main thing they blocked are bannerbomb (http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Bannerbomb) the exploit used by most everyone to "softmod" a Wii which allowed you to place a file on the SD card and run it via the system menu and the hackmii installer (http://hackmii.com/2009/08/hackmii-installer-v0-3/) which installed the Homebrew channel and bootmii. The hackmii installer should be updated in the coming days as they've been stockpiling exploits and not releasing them to the public in case the one they currently used was ever blocked.

All that said there is no reason to update anyway if you already have homebrew. The shopping channel can always be updated with a homebrew tool and accessed on any version of the system menu. They didn't add anything new to the System menu this time around it was just aimed at removing homebrew just like the last update (4.2).

They need a legit homebrew option

[8086]

Everybody knows homebrew is the door for piracy. While the freedom crowd may advocate that one should be entitled to fully use the device they own, truth is that a large part of any console's cost is recovered by content, and without that cash innovation will die and/or consoles will become more expensive. Nintendo always owns a part of the Wii - they paid for it. I know it feels great to be able to play any game you ever wanted for free, but that's because it's easy to not see the food you're stealing off a video game industry worker's table and the despair of many kids who will not get to buy that new Katamari game because it's price got jacked up by ten bucks because of all the pirates. Behind that cartoon face of Mario lies an army of people: developers, marketers, testers, designers, etc that are trying to make ends meet and keep a job (by keeping a business afloat) just like the rest of us. It ain't just fun and games. Enough said.

What Nintendo needs to do is find a way to give out licenses and necessary digital signatures to small production houses and homebrew developers for nominal fees/free so that true homebrew on the Wii can be done in a legit way. How hard would it be for Nintendo to approve a few hundred true homebrew games every month? They're alienating a lot of fans this way, even if for the right reasons. And, this solution will last only the few weeks it takes Skullptura or Razor 1911 or whomever to find another backdoor.

Re:They need a legit homebrew option

[spathi-wa]

... truth is that a large part of any console's cost is recovered by content, and without that cash innovation will die and/or consoles will become more expensive. Nintendo always owns a part of the Wii - they paid for it...

Not true, not in this case. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo has never sold Wii consoles at a loss, not at launch and not now.

e.g. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157690.html

Re:They need a legit homebrew option

[Anonymous Coward]

And even for Sony and MS, they don't own a part of my console. I paid for it and they gave it to me. The fact that they subsidized it means nothing as far as ownership goes.

Re:They need a legit homebrew option

[alexandre_ganso]

I'm yet to see a millionaire programmer/designer/etc working for a big one. But I've seen thousands of execs. If that's the argument, I fail to see it.

Re:They need a legit homebrew option

[Hatta]

What Nintendo needs to do is find a way to give out licenses and necessary digital signatures to small production houses and homebrew developers for nominal fees/free so that true homebrew on the Wii can be done in a legit way.

How would you make such a system GPL compatible?

Re:They need a legit homebrew option

[Anonymous Coward]

the despair of many kids who will not get to buy that new Katamari game because it's price got jacked up by ten bucks because of all the pirates.

OR the kid will have a modded console and just pirate it because of insane pricing. 60$+ for a single game just does not work and never will. 50$ for a used game from the console launch date seriously does not work. Gouge the customer and they will be sure to withhold as much money as they can.

truth is that a large part of any console's cost is recovered by content, and without that cash innovation will die

Then why is it that homebrew is thriving so much? Why are fans making total conversions? they are not receiving any money for it so by your logic they just don't exist.

Seriously why are brewers going to pay for something they are already doing without paying nintendo? pacthes, updates, and more holes will always happen. Honestly nintendo does not have the manpower to stop it.

For those complaining

[SetupWeasel]

Nintendo warns you about what they are going to do before they do it and give you the option to ignore the update. I think this is a fair compromise.

Re:For those complaining

[rusty]

No, assuming they did the same this release as last.

1) This information is on the website, not on the update itself. The update just tells you how to abort it.
2) When you buy a new game, the update is compulsory or you can't play the game you bought.

Nintendo screwed me with this (deleting my whole TP savefile because one slot was the TP hack) and I was livid. 40 hours of my gf's gameplay gone.

Rusty.

Re:For those complaining

[courtarro]

This is true until they release a first-party game with the update included as a requirement. For example, Super Mario Galaxy 2 includes the 4.2 system update and requires you to update your system before you can play the game ... unless you start the game with a homebrew tool that blocks the update. Funny how the very feature they're trying to remove is capable of blocking the removal.

Homebrew users know to avoid system updates at all costs, so the only people affected by them are people who have not yet hacked their Wii. Once updated, though, those people will have a harder time installing homebrew should they choose to try it.

Re:For those complaining

[Hadlock]

I think that the problem stems from the fact that anyone buying a Wii bought after this date, or installs the update prior to finding out about Wii homebrew, may be locked out of homebrew forever.

Re:For those complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

All the more reason for people doing homebrew to actually pirate their games even if they would've rather bought them otherwise.

Re:For those complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a liar. Not only does Nintendo include the warnings in the Wii system mail they send you about the update, but it's impossible for you to keep both the the TP hack save, and your save on your console at the same time. I know because I was intelligent enough to back mine up before copying the original TP hack. Sounds like you weren't.

Re:For those complaining

[Dwedit]

Right now, with the current update, all you need for Homebrew is a copy of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and an SD card.

Re:For those complaining

[Balinares]

Dude. They're casual even about fighting homebrew. :P

Re:For those complaining

[SetupWeasel]

So, don't buy that game, or if you want to use a Wii for homebrew, buy another for games. Nintendo isn't stopping you from modding your system. They simply say that if you want software upgrades, you have to accept their terms.

It isn't like they load it in the background. It isn't like they don't tell you what they are doing. It isn't like they don't give you the option to keep everything like it always was. This is pretty tame compared to other companies' tactics to combat piracy, and I see nothing ethically wrong with it.

Are we using the same unauthorized channels?

[mykos]

"Because unauthorized channels or firmware may impair game play or the Wii console"

My unauthorized channels don't impair shit. They actually make my Wii more useful (emulators, homebrew apps, etc)

Re:Are we using the same unauthorized channels?

[patrixx]

Nintendo's not saying they *are* impending. Just that they *may* impend... Mohahahaha ;-)

Re:Are we using the same unauthorized channels?

[kellyb9]

My unauthorized channels don't impair shit. They actually make my Wii more useful (emulators, homebrew apps, etc)

They are impairing Nintendo's ability to turn a profit off repackaged games that are twenty years old. As sad is it may sound, I think Nintendo execs simply assume people are pirating software when homebrew is mentioned.

Re:Are we using the same unauthorized channels?

[flowwolf]

considering very few of the homebrew games are even playable, and few would consider them fun, Nintendo is right to not worry about the tiny blip that homebrew is on their horizon. Homebrew is a minor casualty in the update wars. They update for a number of reasons. Better system performance for instance. In order to make sure that the update is done in a way which doesn't brick it, a system clean is done first. Closing the banner bomb was probably a minor item on their todo list, just to create significant enough hurdles to keep widespread piracy being the popular choice.
I think it's a very responsible move to clean the system before proceeding with the update.

Not really

[LordVader717]

Nintendo are quite user-friendly in this respect. With every Update they explicitly warn you that it deletes Homebrew software and could brick your Wii. And apart from deleting the channels, they don't purposely attempt to do more damage. Microsoft OTOH don't give you any warning, brick your console, and block your account.

I never upgraded

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still at 3.1 :)
Mainly because I pirate the hell out of my Wii - I have modchip + homebrew loaders and IOS hacks.
I only pay for indie games like World of Goo (brought it twice! - once alone then with the Humble Indie Pack) - the big companies can survive without my hard earned cash:)

Re:Don't buy consoles

[tepples]

Say I have friends visiting my home and we end up wanting to play a video game. But either A. they don't all own a PC, instead commonly using a PC belonging to another household member, B. they didn't all bring PCs because they didn't know in advance that they were going to want to play a video game, or C. they all brought PCs but it turns out that there isn't any game that all four of us have. Now how do we play video games together? With a Wii console, we can trade discs back and forth to practice games and then play the games together on a shared screen because unlike PC game developers and some PS3/360 game developers, Wii game developers haven't yet succumbed to the mentality of requiring one system per player. A lot of you don't like split screens, but Tetris splits a screen without the issues commonly seen in first-person shooters, and Bomberman and Smash Bros. are good examples of how to share a screen without a split at all.

I think you are missing something

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO, Nintendo is doing this because people are pirating games. If Nintendo Wii was used ONLY for homebrew, I really doubt they would block homebrew. This wasn't going to affect their money.

But hey, lots of people are playing Mario games for free! Nintendo doesn't want that.

The real problem are with those hypocrites that say "I use to play my backups". Come on, we all here know that 90% of people that say that are lying and use homebrew to pirate games.

Neither Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft want to lose money from pirating. BUT if homebrew in consoles were used only to run custom applications, like browsers, mini-games, DivX players, etc, these companies wouldn't be affected, so they would just ignore homebrew.

Again: homebrew would be ignored if it was NEVER used to pirate (and cheating) games. Period.

Re:I think you are missing something

[Crookdotter]

The real problem are with those hypocrites that say "I use to play my backups". Come on, we all here know that 90% of people that say that are lying and use homebrew to pirate games.

90% of people speed on the roads. Should we punish ALL drivers for speeding? I have the homebrew channel on my wii, and I love the emulation side of it, as well as being able to use my wii via ftp to store files etc. (I know, emulation tends to use ripped ROMS as well, but honestly, all the speccy games I play via emulation I still own in the loft somewhere. I can't bear to throw them out) Homebrew just makes the thing more useful. If nintendo found a way to allow homebrew and write apps for it there would be a LOT of developers for it I'm sure, maybe even monetise the apps similar to apples model with the iphone.

But no, they punish all modders and homebrew writers who do it for the love of doing it.

I think nintendo would be suprised at the homebrew developers if they gave them an avenue to work with while trying to combat piracy. But in the end, this won't change anything. Piracy cannot be stopped, it's just the level that the company is willing to endure that changes.

The most use my wii sees these days is watching things via BBC's iplayer, which is a fantastic function. The wii could be turned into an internet TV instantly if nintendo got some companies involved like the BBC. There's life in the thing yet before a Wii 2.

Re:I think you are missing something

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so glad that you have peace of mind inspite of the fact that your are a criminal. Hopefully the speeders who get in to accidents and kill people have the same peace of mind. While we are at it those who are driving while under the influcence should simply be supplied a cup of coffee to help them focus instead of being arrested. I know lots of people who have installed the homebrew channel and not a single one of them uses it for ethical reasons. Several of them clam so JUST LIKE YOU, but they are all liers. I personally have the skills and knowledge to mod every game system I currently own, but choose not to. Instead I buy my games and enjoy them knowing that the hard working people who developed them are getting paid.

Re:I think you are missing something

[Volante3192]

Homebrew's practically ignored as it is. Since the Wii came out there have been EIGHT Menu updates.

Eight.

Let's think about this: 3 years, 8 updates.

With an always on connection, you'd think (if Nintendo was venemently anti-homebrew) they'd push patches out every time there was a new crack. They clearly have not. It almost seems more like token breaking: "Oh, well, we broke it now. See? We're doing our part, other publishers. We'll come back in another 5 months and break it again in an utterly trivial matter like last time."

Just get a Wode

[The_Marone]

If you're that worried about losing the ability to load games from an external hard drive, just buy a Wode. It fully emulates the Wii's optical drive and is oblivious to any updates Nintendo does to the console. That's what I use and it's amazing, it even rips your discs to the hard drive for you. My kids haven't had to touch a game DVD in months. WODE

Re:Just get a Wode

[gknoy]

Thanks! That was very informative. If I had more than a couple games, I'd want to use that. Does modding my Wii like that remove my ability to use the Wii online store (e.g., for buying Tetris)? I fear it may, and that'd be a no-go.

Re:Just get a Wode

[Shadyman]

The WODE is indistinguishable from the actual DVD drive on the Wii; the FPGA responds to the Wii's requests just like the DVD drive would.

Disclaimer: I'm not a WODE staff member, stakeholder, etc.

Re:Just get a Wode

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're that worried about losing the ability to load games from an external hard drive, just buy a Wode. It fully emulates the Wii's optical drive and is oblivious to any updates Nintendo does to the console. That's what I use and it's amazing, it even rips your discs to the hard drive for you. My kids haven't had to touch a game DVD in months. WODE

That doesn't do anything to those of us who actually do want homebrew, not just backup copies.

Menu 4.3 impairs functionality

[Rich Klein]

Whether your games (IP) are pirated or not, once you get used to the speed and convenience of running them off a hard drive or SD card, why would anyone want to go back to swapping discs (that, in a household with a 3-year-old, often get lost)?

Re:Menu 4.3 impairs functionality

[tepples]

Unlike downloads, discs can be lent to in-person friends.

Re:Menu 4.3 impairs functionality

[Rich Klein]

That's beside my point, but downloads can be lent, too, on a variety of media.

Re:Menu 4.3 impairs functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea... I lend my games via thepiratebay.

Re:Bullshit

[Lord Bitman]

It is not my responsibility to use a product only within the defined parameters of a broken business-model. If they are concerned about people using their hardware, maybe they shouldn't sell it in the first place.

The only reason they aren't a software company is that nobody would stomach buying £100+ of peripherals required for a single software title. Release the peripherals as part of a generic gaming system, and people somehow don't notice that they still only use it for a single game.

Nintendo is a software company. They make games that people really like, and tack on some third-rate hardware to allow them to get something vaguely resembling the input they want. I really wish they'd just give up and release Mario for the 360.

Re:Don't buy consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

You fail hard, crawl back into your hole and never come back out. plzkthx

85% of people are speeding on 1 road limt is t low

[Joe The Dragon]

If 85% of people are speeding on 1 road then the limit to low for that road.

Is everyone missing the obvious answer?

[Dogbertius]

There is still a remote chance that if you botched your soft mod, the update will brick you system. This means you get to pay for shipping both ways plus a service fee to fix the Wii. Fun times.

Why would Nintendo want to release something to put an end to homebrew? Likely because it's the first stepping stone to soft modding the Wii and playing pirated games. If they don't make an effort to reduce piracy, developers aren't going to be interested in developing games for the platform if they can't profit from it.

This effectively keeps the rookie script kiddies (soft modding is NOT hacking, unless you coded the firmware hack yourself) from soft modding the Wii, either out of concern for "bricking" the system, or just not having the know-how to do it in the first place. I really don't see a problem with wanted to make a profit from a novel commercial venture that a company has invested millions in.

Re:Is everyone missing the obvious answer?

[alexandre_ganso]

So the ps3 is the most attractive console for developers, by this logic.

Re:Is everyone missing the obvious answer?

[Dogbertius]

Not necessarily, but if piracy hits a level where anyone can just rent and duplicate every last game without any hassle at all, it's not exactly going to provide much incentive for future development.

Does it really offend people so much that developers, engineers, artists, etc, benefit from their work?

Re:Is everyone missing the obvious answer?

[gknoy]

Does it really offend people so much that developers, engineers, artists, etc, benefit from their work?

Nope, doesn't offend me at all. However, I have several games for an older system which I can't play on my Wii now, and I would really like to be able to run it (via software others have written and given away for free) on my Wii, or on ${CONSOLE}, rather than praying that Square Enix re-releases something Yet Again for the new console, for example. (The Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls game package is exceptional, by the way ... but I'd love to be able to play it on my next portable console, or on a larger screen since my GBA is busted. I don't love it enough to bother modding my Wii and looking for an emulator, though.)

I realize that some people are unethical and want to play games for free. Many others want to play games they've already paid for either in a more convenient way (load from a library of ripped images) or on The Next Console which doesn't have (official) backwards compatibility. The latter group are not at all opposed to developers getting paid: they got paid when we bought the game.

Re:Is everyone missing the obvious answer?

[Dogbertius]

Seems fair to me. I'll agree, I'm pretty disappointed with Nintendo's approach to resolving this (Virtual Console). All I get to do is pay a second time for a game I already own. I really wish they'd just do their own port of ZSNES/SNES9x to Wii.

News flash

[DeadCatX2]

People will always pirate things. Hackers will always break protection schemes. Their numbers are miniscule when compared to the full customer base. System Menu 4.3 is not going to change any of this. It will fail to stop pirates and hackers. The "sold at a loss" is a red herring anyway, because by the time they are plugging security holes, many consoles have *already* been sold at a loss...and the Wii isn't sold at a loss anyway.

It really emphasizes Nintendo's priorities. On the one hand, they could pay their engineers to develop new and compelling features for the Wii so that they can entice those who might actually become paying customers. On the other hand...they can pay their engineers to repeatedly fail at stopping the pirates (who were weren't, aren't, and never will be paying customers) and hackers (most of whom actually are paying customers).

You know what's the saddest part, though? The homebrew community has actually expanded the capabilities of the Wii more since its release than Nintendo has. It can now play streaming media over WiFi and USB, and it can play DVDs (something Nintendo claimed the Wii could never do!). What has Nintendo invested their time and money into? A shortcut to the SD card menu, the ability to rearrange the order of channels on the System Menu, and updates to the built-in channels like the Wii Shop channel. And multiple failed attempts to stop homebrew.

Re:News flash

[Volante3192]

It's not like these updates are regular though. Over the past 3.5 years there have been 8 menu updates. I wouldn't exactly call that "repeatedly failing" or giving the impression that there's engineers at work pushing updates out every instant there's a new crack. In fact, it practically demonstrates the opposite.

Nintendo apparently views the Wii as a game console. Not a media center (or, as Phil Harrison called the PS3, a replacement for the PC.) That keeps their focus small. They don't have to worry about media playback reliability because they don't advertise it. They don't have to worry about alternate OSes because they don't support it. They don't have to licence DVD playback because they don't advertise it.

If you want a media center, get one. Nintendo's perfectly happy to let you go elsewhere for your media center needs. Who are you to question their business model?

Re:News flash

[Beardo the Bearded]

I question their model because I own a Wii, I have never modded it, and half the time when I start it up I get the "System Files are Corrupted" message.

It's bullshit and the only ones getting hurt are people who AREN'T hacking their Wiis.

Re:News flash

[pandaman9000]

8 times. 3.5 years. That's more than every 6 months. It seems to me that they are pretty aggressive, considering the minimal contact with the outside world it has.

My car (2000 Audi S4) is modded heavily. The only thing the manufacturer does about it is deny any warranty.

If you physically own the hardware, you should be allowed any use or modification of it. Anything else would imply that you are renting it.

Re:News flash

[DeadCatX2]

Please take your "every instant there's a new crack" straw man back, because I was never arguing that they did. It's one thing to say Nintendo shouldn't pay their engineers to ensure compatibility with homebrew. It's a whole different thing to say Nintendo should pay their engineers to actively sabotage the things that *I* installed on *MY* Wii. I am arguing that they should leave homebrew alone because they should pay their engineers to ADD features to the Wii instead of wasting their time trying to stop the unstoppable.

I never implied any sense of immediacy regarding when Nintendo is pushing updates in relation to exploits. However, whenever they do release an update, it *actively* searches for known hacks to remove them. And quite often, it fails to plug the hole. They failed to plug the Twilight Hack multiple times. They failed to plug BannerBomb multiple times until this most recent update. I call that "repeatedly failing".

It's amusing to see you argue the Wii is "not a media center" when Nintendo has released a Netflix disc (not a System Update, just a disc). Face the facts, the hackers have done more to empower the Wii than Nintendo's own engineers. And that's just sad.

Re:News flash

[Anonymous Coward]

...You *are* allowed to do whatever you want to it. You just can't get the free updates as a result of your mods. So don't update and this won't affect you at all. When a new game comes out that requires an update then you just can't play that game. Doesn't mean you can't mod your system...

Re:News flash

[Volante3192]

I am arguing that they should leave homebrew alone because they should pay their engineers to ADD features to the Wii instead of wasting their time trying to stop the unstoppable.

Course, we don't know what happens behind the scenes. Perhaps they have to show token attempts to stop homebrew to make other publishers and developers happy, and perhaps that's why, when they do these updates, they make the attacks targeted and weak.

Face the facts, the hackers have done more to empower the Wii than Nintendo's own engineers. And that's just sad.

In your opinion.

I'm perfectly happy letting my Wii just play the games I get for it.

*and the reason it's a Netflix disc is to get around Netflix's contract with Microsoft. The PS3 needs a disc as well. I've used it, but I'd be fine without it. It still doesn't feel like a media center.

Re:News flash

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's better than that. Assuming the "update" is just a check to root out your evil homebrew files (as opposed to adding something vital the game simply can't function without), you don't even need to worry about the game forcing it on you. Just use the homebrewed version of the boot loader to force the system to ignore disc updates and you're set. You can have your mods and play your games too.

The Eternal Battle

[scurker]

It's amusing to me the back and forth between Nintendo and homebrew, and homebrew just about always tends to come ahead in the end. Every time an exploit is patched, a work around is usually available in the next few days.

The sad part of the story is that Homebrew was never about piracy, but about giving the ability for people to play around with the Wii architecture. In the beginning some of the Homebrew developers even offered to help patch/expose certain exploits only to be completely snubbed by Nintendo. Now the developers don't even really care about disabling piracy given Nintendo's smug attitude.

Re:The Eternal Battle

[marcansoft]

Smug and clueless. Consider the following timeline: On October 23rd, 2008, they released their first "real" update (attempting to block exploits). Shortly after that, homebrew was available again, of course. However, softmod piracy was blocked because at the time homebrew did not provide full system control (i.e. BootMii), and we did not publicly disclose the exploit that we used to install the Homebrew Channel. Then someone released a separate exploit for other reasons (to install DVDX which we had neglected to make available at the time), and the pirates latched on to it as their "gateway" into the system.

Then they went through two updates and 7 months, trying to patch the holes that we used to install homebrew, never once attempting to patch the hole that was the root of all softmod piracy on the Wii at that stage. Then we released BootMii on May 13th, 2009 which gives the user full control (for WiiLinux, NAND backup and restore functionality, etc.) and therefore can be used to launch softmod tools. Nonetheless, I'd say the vast majority of pirates kept using the old hole. Nintendo kept trying to block our homebrew exploits and ignored that one silly hole that the pirates so love.

Now they've finally fixed the hole so loved by Wii pirates. After 20 months.

Of course, then there's the way that they're currently deleting The Homebrew Channel: by hardcoding our channel ID. They did that last time. We changed our ID to JODI, a reference to Jodi Daugherty, "Nintendo of America's senior director of anti-piracy" who ignored, then cyberstalked and harassed bushing when he tried to report a sensitive bug. Now the Wii System Menu contains code to delete "JODI". We'll just switch to another ID.

Re:The Eternal Battle

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO this whole cat and mouse shit could easily be avoided if the homebrew community waited until the Wii was no longer commercially exploited by Nintendo. Nintendo would have a much harder time explaining to a court why it felt the need to push out a firmware update 2-3 years after it retired support of the console and was busy with it's next console. Especially if that firmware didn't "affect anything noticable to the user but improved system performance behind the scenes".

Re:The Eternal Battle

[etherlad]

marcan, long-time fan. Been running Homebrew since December-ish 2008, and having installed it on my dad's system, he loves it too. Keep up the excellent work!

lol... homebrew...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ain't that these people who spend twice the amount of money that a PC would cost to modify a GameBoyColor into a multimedia station that has no sound but can play divx with 1 frame/minute?

I bet Nintendo's repair service is full of those multimedia stations.

Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[DeadCatX2]

When you bought your Wii, you were actually buying a license to use Nintendo's hardware. You agreed to this license when you first powered the device on.

From the EULA

Chapter II: Unauthorized Software, Services, or Devices or Unlicensed Accessories

            Your Wii Console and the Wii Network Service are not designed for use with unauthorized software, services, or devices or non-licensed accessories, and you may not use any of these with your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service. Such use may be illegal, voids any warranty, and is a breach of this agreement. Such use may also lead to injury to you or others or cause performance issues or damage to your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service. We (and our licensees and distributors) are not responsible for damage or loss caused by unauthorized software, services or devices or non-licensed accessories. We may take steps to disable or delete any unauthorized software, services or device installed in your Wii Console, for example, by detecting and disabling them through the Wii Network Service and/or game software. If we detect unauthorized software, services, or devices, your access to the Wii Network Service may be disabled and/or the Wii Console or games may be unplayable.

Chapter III: Updates/Changes

            You understand that the Wii Console specifications and the Wii Network Service are constantly evolving and that we may update or change your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service in whole or in part, without notice to you. Such updates may be required for you to play new Wii games or continue to access the Wii Network Service. We may also upgrade, change, or terminate the Content or game software or may discontinue offering Products without notice to you.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[MadJo]

it's disgusting to see misappropriation on this level and scale by corporations.
It's definitely not an incentive to buy more of their crap.

Funny thing, that EULA, you can only read it after you bought the device... I can only hope that one day shrink wrapped EULA and other such licenses will be banned. But that hope is very slim.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[mrchaotica]

I bought, set up, and used a Wii, and I never saw that EULA. Therefore, it has no legal validity.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[kevinNCSU]

Funny thing, that EULA, you can only read it after you bought the device... I can only hope that one day shrink wrapped EULA and other such licenses will be banned. But that hope is very slim.

The link to the EULA on Nintendo's site that the GP provided worked for me and I haven't bought a Wii.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[ChaosDiscord]

How did I miss that? Oh, right, because I never agreed to any EULA. It sure as hell wasn't presented to me when I turned it on for the first time. Perhaps I missed the EULA when I turned on my Wii for the first time, because it didn't seem to be there. They're free to void the warranty and to deny me access to their online services, but beyond that they can kiss my ass. They do not own my Wii, and I am not licensing it from them, and no amount of wishing will make it true.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[Sancho]

So what? Does that mean that I can have a EULA somewhere on my website that people automatically agree to if they reply to my Slashdot posts?

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[kevinNCSU]

GP was complaining that he couldn't read the EULA prior to buying (which I believe means he would simply have to go through the hassle of then returning it and getting reimbursed) so I was pointing out to him that he could in fact read it prior to buying.

Rather then address all the absurdities of your 'example' lets just suffice to say that my comment doesn't mean anything other than what it says: That the EULA is available for viewing before one purchases the product so that means said customer can make an informed decision without the hassle of returning the product if they disagree. It makes no claims as to the legality, morality, or sexuality of EULA's.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[Anonymous Coward]

When I bought my Wii from Wal-Mart, I received a receipt that said I paid sales tax on it.

If I paid sales tax, then I was making a purchase, not agreeing to a license.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[shentino]

Doesn't matter if it shows when you first boot it up.

If it is presented any time after the sale, it is unenforceable.

At least until the right judge is paid off to say differently.

Re:Yes, Nintendo owns your Wii

[flowwolf]

Actually when you first boot your wii from the factory, it provides you an opportunity to accept the EULA. You must've gotten your's used but even then, there are laws about first sale and how they're responsible for any notification of licenses.

Re:85% of people are speeding on 1 road limt is t

[geekoid]

You suffer from the fallacy that 80% of the eopel know the logical and safe speed for a road, as well as how the road was designed.

There is a road near my house with a blind corner. at least 80%* of the people come around that corner over the speed limit. I know this is hardly the only place like this.

You want to talk about flat open roads? then you might have a point.

This is just like the 'everyone is an expert' fallacy. Just because you drive doesn't mean you know shit about proper speeds, safety, road engineering, or what's around a blind corner.

Grow the fuck up.

*based on 4 three day surveys.

What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[damn_registrars]

I've often wondered how well the Wii would would if it was never connected to the internet. My Wii seems to download updates quite often and while it can be annoying I don't care since I don't have anything the least bit controversial on it.

However, one of the target markets for the Wii is older people who wouldn't necessarily be "gamers". It isn't hard to imagine a situation where some older people might buy one either for themselves or for entertaining younger people in their homes, and those people don't have high-speed internet (or even a computer). Does Nintendo have a distribution mechanism for updates for people who don't have their Wiis connected? I could see it being very frustrating for someone to find that they can't play a new game on their system just because they haven't updated....

Re:What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[amentajo]

Newer games bundle the update on the disc and require you to install them before playing.

Re:What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

This actually helps people who softmod. If you've managed to brick your console there is a small chance it can be fixed if you insert a disc that includes an updated system menu. So when these new discs start shipping with 4.3 included it will be good for the homebrew community.

Most people with a softmod just use a system menu hack that blocks all updates from disc/online services anyway.

Re:What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thus encouraging me to get the hacked version of the games where those forces updates are stripped out.

Re:What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can block disc updates with Priiloader or StartPatch.

Re:What if your Wii isn't on the internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

but there are many ways that you can get around that if you have a softmodded wii
startpatch/priiloader can disable disc update checks, as well as a number of other things
if you just download games in the first place and burn/copy to sd or usb, you don't even have to copy over the update partition

the games themselves do not require updated system menu to run at all, and I'd still be on system menu 3.2 and happily running current games if I chose to do so

Good God, you Cry Babies

[Anonymous Coward]

They clearly warn what it's going to do to your homebrew before the update. They even give you a way to undo the update if it fucks up your homebrew after the fact. Finally, you, me.. nintendo... everyone knows that it's not going to last for more than 45 seconds.

In all reality they do very little to actually prevent homebrew and seem to put the warnings in there just to cover their ass (everyone I know updated without losing anything) so stop with this cry baby shit. They hardly stop you at all, but why the fuck do you want them to support your homebrew? That's just unreasonable.

World of Goo

[bipbop]

It came out on Windows at the same time as Wii, according to Wikipedia. The Linux version, which is what I got, came a few months later. I recommend it for people who want to play games but don't want to buy Windows (or a Wii!). I thought it was a really good game for the price.

How disappointing..

[Thraxy]

I'm very disappointed with this story. I was just about to go out and buy a Wii and dust off the magical-moonshine-machine in the basement.... but this has NOTHING to do with brewing alcoholic beverages in the comfort of your home :(

Nintendo FTW

[AngelWind]

Already hacked: http://twitter.com/hackinblack

Can anyone help me straighten my custom firmware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hacked my wii and I can run almost all software, but what I really want to run is DVDx and it complains about firmware version mismatches.

I really feel like I'm going through a lot of trouble to do something Nintendo should have included from the start.

I don't understand all the different cIOS versions and how they work together.

Any clarification?

I see this as a lose for Nintendo

[mmalove]

1. Homebrew will update, and anyone that was smart enough to load it onto a their wii the first time will GUESS WHAT? Continue to be smart enough to load it again.

2. Now that they've brought attention to it, more people will hear about homebrew, think hmmm... sounds interesting and free, why not? Thus expanding their piracy problem.

Re:Can anyone help me straighten my custom firmwar

[aaron552]

This may be enlightening

Just Updated

[fortapocalypse]

No homebrew = no worries = no fun

Updates are easy to get around

[Anonymous Coward]

Games that need the newest firmware can be worked around by using a region-free loader (Gecko OS or TinyLoad) or installing Priiloader and then using a memory hack (just copy-pasting few lines from Wiibrew to Notepad and saving them as a .ini file to the SD card) to make Wii skip the firmware check when loading the game, although you may need to install the IOS that's needed for the game, but that is easy to do with DOP-Mii.

Wii Shop Channel on other hand requires just a IOS and Shop Channel update, not a full system update. This can be done easily using DOP-Mii.

Saving you the trouble

[flowwolf]

I see this as a means to prevent console damage. Modified unofficial software on system meets official update. We've seen how time and time again this can brick your system. Nintendo is a hero here for recognizing there are machines out there that are modified, and proactively make sure that those who want the update, do not brick their Wii in the process. When the homebrew guys eventually come around, it'll be that much easier to install from a base configuration instead of user created configuration.