Alleged Russian Spy Ring Exposed In US

Several readers sent in the story of an alleged Russian spy ring busted yesterday by the FBI after a decade-long investigation. The FBI says that Moscow trained and planted long-term "moles" in the US in order to infiltrate the upper echelons of US government and business circles and pass back intelligence to the Russians. Twelve people have been charged; ten were arrested in the US (one is at large) and one in Cyprus. Wired and the New York Post have colorful coverage. Wired's leans on the tradecraft and discusses steganography, while the Post favors the femme fatale angle (alleged spy Anna Chapman). The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the US actions were unfounded and pursued "unseemly" goals. One of many choice quotes from copious coverage: "They couldn't have been spies. Look what she did with the hydrangeas." From the WSJ report: "Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed. None of the 11 charged by US prosecutors was accused of accessing any classified or sensitive US government information."

Comments

finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

Torture them to get all the information you can, then 11 bullets to the back of the head, spare us a trial

Re:finish this

[TheKidWho]

Make that 10 bullets, I'll take care of Anna, she's been very naughty.

Re:finish this

[Sulphur]

During the Cold War, some spies were being tossed. A reporter asked "What is your name?"

"No name ... just KGB number."

Espionage has fallen on hard times, they are on their last Oleg.

Re:finish this

[mmaniaci]

Torture will yield the quickest answer to make the pain stop, not the truth. Threat of murder means no one talks because, well, even if they do talk they will die. Every human being, spy, terrorist, murderer and rapist alike, deserves a trial. There is always a chance that the authorities are wrong, and without trials the Gov can execute anyone on the grounds that they may be (spy|terrorist|etc).

Sadly, 99% of America would probably still agree with you.

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X

*ZAP*

T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X

*ZAP* *ZAP*

T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X

*ZAP* *ZAP* *ZAP*

T: Tell us X
V: ::lies about X to get the torture to stop::
T: O.k., we'll be back in a few days. If you are telling the truth, we'll set you free. If you are not, the torture continues.

Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information

Re:finish this

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Well, I see that the ruskies remain low on the list of threats to due process of law...

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't feed the trolls, I know.

But...

What your scenario doesn't take into account is V may not actually know anything and is telling the truth regarding X in this context. Now you have a completely innocent person who is dead on your hands, you murderer.

Re:finish this

[mikael_j]

Possible problem identified: V doesn't know about X since his/her organization is highly compartmentalized and V only knows about his/her little part of the organization.

Second possible problem: Torture has been anticipated and V has a "cover story" for such an occasion (perhaps a clever lie about X which makes sense and which when investigated by T will seem like it's true).

Third possible problem: Torture has been anticipated and V has been trained not to give up information.

Fourth possible problem: Torture and murder of operatives by T's organization is well-known by V's organization and every operative in V's organization has been trained to commit suicide to avoid capture.

But hey, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is a lot more fun, right?

Re:finish this

[Omestes]

... : O.k., we'll be back in a few days. If you are telling the truth, we'll set you free. If you are not, the torture continues. ...
Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information

On problem, torture isn't conducive to rational decision making. You want the torture to stop NOW, and you also probably would find an immediate (if temporary) break to be just as good as a permanent one. Also if the country who has you is of the torturing type, I doubt you trust them to actually set you free, since no country with torture really has much honor.

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, 99% of America would probably still agree with you.

What sort of country is this?

Re:finish this

[tomhudson]

No, the scenario takes that into account.

Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information

Either V dies (most likely) or V makes a lucky guess (it can happen - during questioning, an innocent person may pick up enough clues, along with what they have seen but didn't recognize as suspicious before, to figure things out.)

So if V lives, he or she "MUST have been guilty" even though they weren't.

Re:finish this

[bsDaemon]

Ok, here's the things about "enemy combatants" in several forms, from Taliban militants to German soldiers. When you capture someone on the field of war, you hold them until the war is over. You don't try them for "conspiracy to kill Americans," "conspiracy to commit terrorism," or any of that other bullshit. Why? Because killing opponents on the battle field isn't a crime. Conducting military operations isn't a crime. It's not even any more morally wrong than war is in general, because that's what war is. Thus, I am not for trying taliban militants, al qaeda operatives, or anyone else we capture in Afghanistan or Iraq. Hold them until the war is over. The only problem is, the "war on terrorism" will never be over. However, when we are done fighting in Iraq, everyone captured in Iraq should be released, and when we're done fighting in Afghanistan, then everyone captured in Afghanistan should be released.

Anecdote: in the mid 1960s, my mom's parents decided to have some work done to their house, including re-doing the chimney and fireplace. The man hired to do the job was a German immigrant. He and my grandfather got to talking and discovered they had been in the same battle, on the same day, during WWII, but on opposing sides. They ended up going through a couple of bottles of scotch and crying together for a few hours. I know it's a cliche that young soldiers who come face to face with the enemy always think how 'in another life, they could have been friends,' but in this case an American and a German who had been trying to kill each other a few years earlier in part of the Ardens offensive really did come together. I have a number of friends from Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and other countries in the area. They're all perfectly fine people, and it really bothers me when people who can't even pronounce "terrorist" accuse all middle-easterners and/or Muslims of being one.

Back on topic, the Russians aren't even being charged with espionage, but with acting as agents of a foreign government without proper registration. This is a normal, criminal matter that NGO-types can often run afoul of if they don't fill out the proper documents. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up getting worked out by the State department. But these 10 people are hardly Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Re:finish this

[mmaniaci]

The prisoners taken in the "War on Terrorism" must be given due process because they are human beings. I don't even care if they are citizens or not... inalienable rights are inalienable. Period.

Also, we are definitely not at war with Russia, so these people, as per your definition, deserve a trial.

Re:finish this

[buchner.johannes]

You and many others make the mistake that the damage is not limited to one individual that is killed or mentally/physically injured.

Torture also destroys cooperation with allies. US tortured in Iraq. Thousands of people are mentally and physically damaged. But many Iraqis that might have become allies and help the US build up the country were driven away. "Taxi to the Dark Side" is a good documentation about this.

Making friends is far more effective in getting information, and torture has been shown numerous times to be inefficient. To put it in Picards words, one wonders why it is still practiced. To put it in Sun Tzu's words, use the "land".

Re:finish this

[CohibaVancouver]

When you capture someone on the field of war, you hold them until the war is over [snip] when we're done fighting in Afghanistan, then everyone captured in Afghanistan should be released

Where this falls down is when the 'home country' doesn't want them back. When WW2 ended and the US released the German and Italian POWs, they went back home to Germany and Italy and wherever. Problem with the "War on Terrorism" "soldiers" is they're stateless. Afghanistan doesn't want them, Pakistan doesn't want them. This is one of the many problems Obama is having with his plan to close Guantanamo - There's nowhere to send the released combatants.

Re:finish this

[Chris Burke]

Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information

Ah, but the key word there is "credible".

See, in the real world, it is extremely rare that the information you are trying to obtain is something concrete and easily verifiable. Usually it's just pieces and clues that can take months to follow up on and even then it won't be clear if the info was wrong or just stale.

Like this case. Okay, you torture the "alleged" spies to find out who their handlers were, and what information they transfered. They say they don't know what you're talking about at first, then they give you names. Maybe different ones. Lies, or did they each have different handlers? Even if they were telling the truth those names could be aliases, so how do you expect to track them down in a foreign country? In a couple days? Ha! Months or years if you're lucky! No, the problem is that you can't just fact-check every statement they make and know for sure if they're lying.

So instead, the interrogator has to decide what sounds "credible", which is where their own biases come in, which is why -- as the army manual itself says -- the best thing torture is good for is for getting the suspect to say what you want to hear. Torture is great for getting confessions. Actionable intel? Not so much.

But hey, it works for Jack Bauer, and that's all some people need.

Re:finish this

[Artifakt]

Plus if "V" makes that lucky guess on one question, all the other BS is presumed to be at least a little believable. V tells you the name of a contact, "it must also be the truth", so even when you check out that guy and it just isn't possible, you're never completely sure he's clean. maybe you should torture him too, only what if that's what the Ruskies want?
      V says the Ruskies are spending millions on psychic research, now you gotta spend tens of millions on trying to find loyal Americans who can kill goats with their minds too. V says that South American politician who died of an apparent heart attack a few years ago was actually a test of a new, untraceable poison, sorry he doesn't remember the guy's name or just when, you gotta fund a chemical research program or something.

Re:finish this

[bsDaemon]

Yes, these people deserve a trial and I said as much. But there shouldn't be "due process" beyond "sit your ass here until the war is over" for people we scoop up on the battle field.

Re:finish this

[bsDaemon]

The Taliban were the legal government of Afghanistan, and were recognized by other countries as so. Saddam Hussein's Baath party was the legal, recognized government of Iraq. Just because we changed the government to one that doesn't want to own up doesn't change anything. Karzai's govt in Afghanistan is trying to do some reconciliation with the Taliban there precisely because most of the Taliban in Afghanistan were Afghans.

Re:finish this

[DigiShaman]

From what I've read, when you torture someone, you never ask questions...at first. You simply torture them to the point they release a stream of consciousness. At this moment, they will be in total fear of their lives and in a complete mode of panic. You generally don't let the individual being tortured know what information you're actually looking for until much later. That way, you can spot deviations in his/her story. Basically, torture is a tool to methodically extract truthful information. But extracting information is as much of an art as it is a science. Not always successful even with a professional leading the "procedure".

Re:finish this

[CohibaVancouver]

So what do you do? Fly the prisoners to Afghanistan or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and then kick them out of the plane onto the tarmac, then fly off? How exactly do you repatriate them when the governments say "don't bring them back"?

Re:finish this

[DigiShaman]

I say we release them back to Russia, but for another reason entirely. I mean, the damage has already been done. So by releasing them, we have established a political upper hand over Russia. It's our ace up the sleeve when it comes to other negotiations in the future. Such a concession is politically worth far more than making a circus out of this event. Lets use it to our advantage this time!

Re:finish this

[mangu]

Anecdote: in the mid 1960s, my mom's parents decided to have some work done to their house, including re-doing the chimney and fireplace. The man hired to do the job was a German immigrant. He and my grandfather got to talking and discovered they had been in the same battle, on the same day, during WWII, but on opposing sides. They ended up going through a couple of bottles of scotch and crying together for a few hours

Counter-anecdote: my grandfather fought in the Russian revolution when he was 18 years old. A short while before he died of alcoholism in 1963 he told my mother he could never forget how he had to shoot a communist fighter who used a small boy as a human shield.

Moral of the story: soldiers are like anybody else, there's good and bad. Not every Russian was a communist, not every German was a nazi, and not every Palestinian is a terrorist. But, until Russians started fighting communism and until Palestinians start fighting terrorism, how can we know which is which?

Re:finish this

[gandhi_2]

You hold a simplistic view of "answer".

You know Person A knows Information B due to another source/method.

You aren't sure how important information B is. To what extent Person A lies about Information B while being tortured may give you a clue as to how important Person A thinks Information B is. This is just one example. Torture a lot of people and patterns will start to emerge...like metadata.

There are lots of puzzle pieces you can get from torture, very rarely will the question be as simple as "where is the hidden rebel base".

I hold the view that torture CAN work, but we can win without it. Basing your don't-torture argument on "torture doesn't work" is wrong... and worse it cheapens the argument.

Now you will point out that some experts say it never works.... And I will point out they are full of shit.

Re:finish this

[gandhi_2]

Oh ffs, torturing each cell can help you map out how compartmentalized your enemy cells are.

Re:finish this

[gandhi_2]

Ok, so when an entire Nazi battalion got taken prisoner, we should have shipped every last soldier to the US for a trial?

I have a little rule: I don't ask soldiers how to setup my SQL database, and I don't ask douche-bag geeks how to fight a war.

Re:finish this

[Ihmhi]

One that succumbs to fear and paranoia all too easily these days, I'm sad to say.

Re:finish this

[Paradigma11]

Let's say you know 10 facts in the interested domain. you put these 10 facts in a basket of 50 questions. if the suspect does not know what you know it is only combinatorics/probability to estimate the quality of the information. If you have no knowledge whatsoever what they are up to you probably should not start torturing people anyway.

Re:finish this

[marcello_dl]

Besides, what about a "less mean" form of torture? Truth serum is still a form of violence and unreliable (in the US, russkies seems to be way ahead) but at least one can keep the pretense of being the good guy.

Anyway I don't think the secret service is interested in obtaining information from these guys. The timing of the bust (just after the meeting between Americans and Russians) is suspect. The fact they have not busted them during an operation is suspect too: if they caught them with a fake passport at the airport, with a bag of money, with industrial secrets - then Russians couldn't whine about the arrest, a perfect victory.

And why bust them at all? Keeping an eye on them would have yielded good information (insight into the russian strategy and the more trivial details like communication techniques), or would have made it possible to foil a plan once the ring gets really important. Now the russians will have to start from scratch with another ring of illegals: it'll cost them some effort but it will cost the USA much more effort to discover it. A net negative.

So my 2c is that the relations between USA and Russia were the real target of the bust.

Re:finish this

[Kumiorava]

These questions should have been asked in the beginning of the war not after. What were US plans on handling prisoners of war (or enemy combatants)? What is the final objective of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? What are the war ending criteria? How to exit the war, what sort of rebuilding is necessary?

Of course I don't have an answer to those, but I would expect any nation that starts a war will have asked and answered to them with backup plans. Especially telling is the Soviet wars in Afghanistan, there was early warnings about not being able to finish off the war with clean victory.

Re:finish this

[oodaloop]

Boy, it's funny the professionals still use it. They should have consulted with you first. Torture, both physical and psychological, can break someone to the point they will in fact spill the beans. The pros know which type (physical or psychological) to use on whom, and how to tell when they're broken or merely saying stuff to end the pain. Maybe it's not humane, and maybe it's not legal everywhere, but that's an entirely different argument from saying it's completely useless.

Re:finish this

[rapiddescent]

usually a deal is done with a small nation to expatriot the prisoners to. Palau (link to guardian article) was trying to deal with the US to take 17 of the prisoners in return for quite large infrastructure grants ($200m).

Re:finish this

[BobMcD]

I have a little rule: I don't ask soldiers how to setup my SQL database, and I don't ask douche-bag geeks how to fight a war.

Since when do the soldiers get a say in how the war is fought? Pentagon bureaucrats do that, at least in the USA. Unless you're insinuating that there's no such thing as a douchebag in the Pentagon. But that strains the imagination...

Re:finish this

[BobMcD]

These questions should have been asked in the beginning of the war not after. What were US plans on handling prisoners of war (or enemy combatants)? What is the final objective of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? What are the war ending criteria? How to exit the war, what sort of rebuilding is necessary?

Reminds me of teenage sex, actually.

"How am I supposed to find a job and support a wife and baby??"

"Tough cookies, son, you should have thought of that before the clothes came off..."

Responsibility for one's decisions and all that.

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

Lawful enemy combattants need to meet a number of criteria if they are in fact to be deemed lawful and therefore under the protection of
the various conventions governing civilized warfare. The opponents of the US and its allies in the current global conflict by and large do not
meet the criteria. They are therefore unlawful combattants and in many cases guilty of actual warcrimes(*). The US and allies are therefore
entitled to treat most of the AQ, Taliban, etc. they capture as criminals rather than POW. And that does not by the way buy the clownshoe
illegals a trip to a civilian courtroom. In an ideal world they would go before a military commission and if convicted to the firing squad or
such lesser punishment as determined by the military commission.
(* Taking of hostages for one. Which by the way they are then responsible for not the US and allied forces the hostages are used as human
shields against )

Re:finish this

[cj_nologic]

The Palestinians *are* fighting terrorism ...

Re:finish this

[computational super]

Yeah, when I hear somebody say "torture", my mind immediately goes to medieval stuff like pulling fingernails, thumbscrews, the rack... so when I first heard that US troops were "torturing" POWs in Guantanamo, I thought, "This is terrible! America doesn't do that sort of thing! We're better than that!"

So a few weeks later, the details started to emerge - the first "torture" I heard that they had applied was... flushing pages of the Koran down the toilet.

Seriously? Maybe we need to clarify terminology here a bit.

Re:finish this

[david_thornley]

There's two types of prisoners.

One is the person we find shooting at us on the battlefield, or part of a uniformed military force we scoop up. (Note that a civilian shooting at our soldiers falls in this category, if his or her army hasn't shown up yet.) These people are shipped somewhere where we can keep them from escaping and treated decently. When the war is over, we repatriate them.

The other is the person we find performing illegal acts. Those we should try in a fair court, and punish appropriately.

There are overlaps: an enemy combatant might have performed a war crime we've got evidence of, for example. However, either we hold them until the end of hostilities in good condition, or we try them, or both. We should punish nobody without a trial.

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

"Torture will yield the quickest answer to make the pain stop, not the truth."

If the pain stops, IT'S NOT TORTURE.

And, part of the art of torture is sorting through the answers.

D-fucking-UH!

Where did all of you idiot wimps come from? You who cannot think to Step 2 of torture, or even imagine what real torture is.

I suggest you read some autobiographies of POWs. Try to work outside your little comfort sphere of formulaic TV torture from "Burn Notice" and "24."

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

In an ideal world Bush wouldn't have wrecked the credibility of our tribunals with gitmo and his "We're going to lock them up forever and not even tell them why (habeas corpus)" attitude.

Re:finish this

[Anonymous Coward]

You're confusing war with terrorism.

Did the Nazi battalion wear uniforms and fight conventionally? Then they were soldiers, and treated like prisoners of war when captured. They were the enemy, but not guilty of a crime just for being in the army. If they committed illegal acts (like intentionally killing civilians, a la terrorism), then yes, they should be tried.

The enemy in the War on Terror is....terrorists. Terrorists get tried for their (illegal) acts of terrorism. The War on Terror could last as long as the government wants it to; you can't imprison people forever.

Re:finish this

[CohibaVancouver]

I would expect any nation that starts a war will have asked and answered to them with backup plans

Well, yes and no. If North Korea were to lob missiles at Seattle and Portland tomorrow (yeah, yeah, unlikely, I know, it's just an example) then the USA would likely immediately (re)declare war on North Korea and begin whoopin' some commie ass. It's unlikely there'd be a period of analysis asking and answering these questions and generating backup plans.

Re:finish this

[Myopic]

nuh uh.

Re:finish this

[downhole]

The evidence suggests that torture works quite well. See regimes such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Saddam's Iraq, etc, where the ruling party remains in power until either an outside force overthrows them or they give up.

If you're picking up random people off of the street to torture, then of course you're going to get whatever nonsense information they think will stop the pain. But if it's part of an actual investigation of a enemy group that actually exists, then you can follow up on information, come back to the people who gave it to you, screen out bad information, etc, until you get to the bottom of what's going on. Not to mention the question of how many people are actually capable of coming up with clever lies when they're in horrible pain with no end in sight and they know that the people asking the questions can find out if it's nonsense.

Of course, that's not to say that it's necessarily okay or the best solution to any particular problem. Obviously, there are a lot of moral and practical considerations to what you actually to do members of an enemy organization that you manage to get your hands on - overly harsh treatment may cause potential allies to turn away from you, cause neutral parties to take up active opposition to you, etc. But the idea that torture doesn't work is just total nonsense.

Re:finish this

[Kumiorava]

I would be surprised if US military didn't play war games where North Korea launches missiles at US or South Korean targets. The job of military is to prepare for these kinds of things not just pull the trigger.

Of course unknown enemy is harder to respond to, but even the current Iraq and Afghan wars were well prepared after the 9/11. There was no reason not to plan for different outcomes.

Re:finish this

[Captain Splendid]

It's a duck!

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

SPY redefined to mean a hot woman? 3

Re:hmm

[Lobachevsky]

Or a great investment that costs only $108 per share.

Hmmm are we sure

[Anonymous Coward]

that this is real and not some kind of stunt to promote a certain crystalline-flavoring movie?

First!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an US spy in Russia, this is a secret message.
Lots of beautiful long legged ladies!

Re:First!

[Anonymous Coward]

I smell weapons of mass distraction!

Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[MarkvW]

I would expect that we get some wonderful counterespionage out of Russia itself nowadays.

It seems pretty wasteful for Russia to spend so much money on such an elaborate operation when it could be destroyed by one disaffected Russian official who dreams of a CIA payoff.

Madness!

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Threni]

Who cares? Let them spy. What are they going to learn?

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[girlintraining]

I would expect that we get some wonderful counterespionage out of Russia itself nowadays.

In Russia... no, no, I just can't do it. Russian intelligence is enough of a joke without resorting to cliches.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[rwa2]

I think a lot of the reason behind secrecy is to shroud what we don't have as capabilities. If other countries knew about our failings in pervasive monitoring and command, control, coordination, and communications, and sharks with lasers on their heads or the ability to educate youths and keep old decrepit folks happy and sane, then they'd just have to assume we were awesome at all of those things.

But until then, we can charge admission for the illusion!

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Sulphur]

How many US jobs does on spy generate?

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Embed early, embed often. Operations like this one create the infrastructure for rings that can matter ten, twenty, thirty years from now. Right now it's about insertion and training.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Sulphur]

How many US jobs does one spy generate?

FTFY

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Svippy]

Two things:

A. Should be 'FTFM', unless you refer to yourself as 'you' and B. 'on spy' is a more obscure sex position. So the former question is still accurate.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[sortius_nod]

Indeed, secrecy is not about hiding how powerful you are, but how weak you are.

You can even use it to such an advantage that you screw the other country up - look at the cold war, USSR put so much into out-building the US with regard to nukes that they didn't even realise the US had a fraction of the nuclear weapons that were being claimed.

I'd say this spy ring was actually more interested in business, seeing as how the Russians are now trying to move from being a purely resource backed country to an economic powerhouse. The more they know about how US companies do business with the US government, the easier it will be to get Russian companies (more than likely owned by the Russian oligarchs) to have a foothold in the US.

Just my food for thought.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

are you sure its not human intelligence that is the joke ?

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

What are they going to learn?

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Your.Master]

A. He didn't fix it for himself though. He already knew what he meant. He fixed it for everybody else's benefit.
B. I have hereby abandoned the attempt to verify that "on spy" is a sex position.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[rtfa-troll]

B. .

You got this wrong too. What you should attempt is inventing an "on spy" sex position.

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Sulphur]

Citation needed

Re:Leakety, leakety leak . . .

[Antique Geekmeister]

There are various kinds of intelligence: people on the ground can report details of events in a way that electronic monitoring cannot hope to discover, but electronic monitoring can present bulks of data that can be analyzed for privileged information unlikely to reach someone not in the inner circle of a government or business group, so it's a fascinating tradeoff.

Material that is organized and the debris filtered out is like trying to get detailed Linux network support from a telecom's call center: it takes competent personnel to filter out all the debris, obtain, and confirm the relevant data. And material that is clear enough to override a really, really bad move being planned by your political leaders is incredibly valuable and wildly underappreciated. It took Dick Cheney weeks to rewrite the CIA reports on Iraq enough to amass the flimsy, even fraudulent evidence of Iraq weapons of mass destruction enough to get Colin Powell up in front of the UN to present the fraud.

Impossible!

[Anonymous Coward]

The cold war ended!

Spy creepin' round here!

[Anonymous Coward]

That Spy's a Heavy!

Obligatory

[dimethylxanthine]

In Soviet Russia spies expose you! These men are decoys, thanks anyway.

I wonder how many "american spies" the Russians will expose now to return the favour...

Re:Obligatory

[Max_W]

The FSU is flooded with the US spies. All these NGOs, Peace Corps, Human Rights Groups, etc. But they will not be expeled as they pay people good salaries and hardly do any damage.

Much worse is when people are without jobs and without an income. Such people are even more dangerous.

Now when a lot of people in the USA are without jobs does it make sense to take away this too? Production moved overseas, so what people have to do?

Re:Obligatory

[elucido]

The FSU is flooded with the US spies. All these NGOs, Peace Corps, Human Rights Groups, etc. But they will not be expeled as they pay people good salaries and hardly do any damage.

Much worse is when people are without jobs and without an income. Such people are even more dangerous.

Now when a lot of people in the USA are without jobs does it make sense to take away this too? Production moved overseas, so what people have to do?

Huh? LOL your post made no sense.

Re:Obligatory

[jwhitener]

I understand your point. If the people are poor, they are much more likely to give up information.

However, ngo's, peace corp, and other humanitarian groups are not filled with spies.

What's FSU by the way? It is hard to search for, all I get are hits about Florida State University heh.

Re:Obligatory

[VoidCrow]

Former Soviet Union

C'est moi un smurf

[Anonymous Coward]

Les nègres hómosexuel trouler.

Did they?

[B5_geek]

If they didn't 'see/steal/copy' anything, was anything actually spied upon?

The mens rea was the attempt, but if there is no actus rea did they really break the law?

Re:Did they?

[elucido]

They were acting as "agents of Russia" which is against the law in itself since they aren't registered. Why the FBI chose to arrest them now is the mystery because the FBI knew for over a decade.

Re:Did they?

[kevinNCSU]

It's illegal to act as the agent of a foreign government on US soil without declaring yourself as such. I believe most of them are being charged for conspiracy to do just that, while some are being charged with money laundering, which humorously enough carries a much longer maximum sentence.

Re:Did they?

[Koby77]

Last week Obama met with Russian President Medvedev and is going to start pushing for an arms control treaty which will need ratification by the U.S. Senate. The timing of the arrests could have been an FBI signal that they don't trust the Russians in an effort to scuttle the treaty.

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

some are being charged with money laundering, which humorously enough carries a much longer maximum sentence.

Well duh. Money laundering typically involves drug dealers, which (as we all know) are a much greater threat to the country than spies.

Re:Did they?

[dreampod]

They aren't being charged under the typical set of espionage laws (Title 18, 792-798) which cover gathering or disclosing information on defense installations or plans and disclosing classified information. Rather they are being charged with 'Conspiracy to Act as Unregistered Agents of a Foreign Government' (Title 18, 951) which is much broader and covers many otherwise non-criminal activities if performed at the behest of a foreign power.

In addition there are charges unrelated to actual performance of espionage including falsifying passports and other identity documentation, money laundering, and conspiracy to defraud the US.

Over all the complaint has a wealth of specific details that make it very clear that there was intent to commit espionage and commision of crimes in furtherance of that. We still file criminal charges against individuals who have been stopped in the attempt to commit a crime even if they did not succeed to do so, though the charges may be slightly reduced (ie no murder charges if bombing is prevented, but still charged for the bombing).

Re:Did they?

[internewt]

I think I heard them say on Channel 4's news this evening that one or more was going to leave the country, so the FBI acted.

They also mentioned that even though "spying" is being bandied about, none of them have been charged with espionage.

Re:Did they?

[nospam007]

Just read as:

"Nice set of undeclared spies you have there.
It would be a shame if something bad happened to it."

Re:Did they?

[shutdown -p now]

Here is the official document detailing what they did, and what they're being charged with. A very interesting read, though be warned, you'll feel like laughing out loud at times.

Re:Did they?

[Khashishi]

Maybe the FBI preferred to watch them closely for more information while they did their thing.

Re:Did they?

[bsDaemon]

Then, that sounds like Eric Holder needs to have words with Obama, rather than letting Mueller have his agents go and arrest people. If Mueller isn't going to play by the rules of the new administration, or if Holder is going to use his position as Attny General to try and affect foreign policy, then we have bigger issues than some half-assed russian "spy" network. It's not as if there isn't pretty short chain of command from the FBI to the President.

Re:Did they?

[MacGyver2210]

If I got to another country as an 'Agent of America' - aka one of its citizens - wouldn't I just get deported back to the US?

Seems to me deportation and no-fly listing would be sufficient.

More likely it seems like they are US Citizens who have nothing to do with Russia, and they did/saw/know something the government no longer wants floating out there, so they are being taken prisoner as 'spies' to make sure they STFU.

Re:Did they?

[Dishevel]

One of the things I have always hated about US law. I think most other countries laws as well.

Murder vs Attempted Murder

Both people are attempting to do exactly the same thing. One is just fucking stupider than the other. So at murder if you are a fucking idiot that fails we will treat you better.

I just think that is some dumb ass shit is all.

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Russia spies you? Anyway, with espionage like a lot of things conspiracy/collusion and/or intent is really enough.

Re:Did they?

[buchner.johannes]

This is all very weird.

Re:Did they?

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

sure, because flying via registered air is the ONLY way into another country. o.O /sarcasm

Re:Did they?

[dreampod]

As much as it seems foolish there is legitimate reasoning behind it.

(1) Penalty proportional to the harm done. If you fail to commit a crime the harm done to the victim and/or society is greatly reduced, thus since the US 'justice' system is largely built on retribution (rather than rehabilitation) there is less to take out on the criminal.

(2) It encourages going through with a crime when faced with discovery. If you are faced with an identical penalty whether you succeed or not, there is no motivation to back down if confronted by police (ie kill your target vs surrender) because there will be no lessened punishment. It is similar to the argument used for why making forcible child-rape a capital crime is counter productive (the penalty for killing the kid after is the same so why risk them being able to identify you if caught).

(3) Easier to prove. Despite the fact that the law does not allow for it, it remains much easier to get convictions for offences with lesser penalties. If the penalties were normalized than the standard of evidence required for something like attempted murder would correspondingly rise. *Note: This is probably a good thing, but would fundamentally alter the judicial system.*

Re:Did they?

[NotBornYesterday]

If I got to another country as an 'Agent of America' - aka one of its citizens

Citizen != "Agent of country X". We know we have Russian intelligence agents here in the US ... they work at their embassy and consulate locations, and they register with us.

wouldn't I just get deported back to the US?

If you were suspected/arrested/tried/convicted of spying on a foreign country, you might well be imprisoned.

Seems to me deportation and no-fly listing would be sufficient.

More likely it seems like they are US Citizens who have nothing to do with Russia, and they did/saw/know something the government no longer wants floating out there, so they are being taken prisoner as 'spies' to make sure they STFU.

I think your tinfoil hat is showing. It remains to be seen what happens at trial, but apparently they were engaging in encrypted communication with their handlers (which were decoded), and they were filmed making contact and exchanging items with their handlers.

Re:Did they?

[darkmeridian]

If you believe the FBI, one of the targets under investigation realized that she was compromised. The FBI had become aggressive and had an undercover agent contact her because they pretty much knew how the Russians operated with this woman. I would expect that the FBI was trying to set up a sting operation so they can finally bag these spies for espionage. Unfortunately, they gave away the game. The woman bought a Verizon cell phone under a fake name, threw away the charger, and started to make calls. The FBI realized that she was trying to make an anonymous call (which doesn't work if you're already under constant surveillance) then decided to arrest everyone before they fled. One guy ran away but ten were caught.

Re:Did they?

[wiredlogic]

Reading the reports it doesn't seem like they accomplished anything of substance. One foolish guy working on bunker buster bombs talked too much and I'm sure he's got his resume polished up by now. It seems the strongest case against them is for money laundering and tax evasion will probably be thrown in as well.

Re:Did they?

[oldpelican]

One was leaving, was the money man, we probably need leads into the UN. Can't just bust one, had to take his entire ring.

Re:Did they?

[goodmanj]

Why the FBI chose to arrest them now is the mystery because the FBI knew for over a decade.

It's no mystery, it's all right there in the criminal complaint, if you read it with attention to dates. It's got nothing to do with global politics and everything to do with the details of the case.

The FBI had been monitoring one of the spy couples since January 2000 (Lazaro and Pelaez). Over the years, this gradually expanded to include five couples plus Metsos, their money man. It's not clear that all these individuals are linked, but many are. Their every daily move was watched, their houses were bugged 24/7, for years.

Three days ago (June 26), the FBI decided to go beyond passive monitoring, and engineer a meet-up between an undercover FBI agent posing as a Russian operative, and one of the spy couples (Chapman and Semenko). The undercover FBI agent knew the right code phrases, but asked Chapman what I'd consider too many nosy questions. They set up a meeting for the next day, but Chapman was apparently suspicious. An hour later, Chapman bought a disposable cell phone to use as a "burner", and apparently made a call to check on the agent. She apparently figured out her cover was blown, since she didn't make the meeting the next day.

At this point, the FBI must have realized the jig was up, and they'd better close the net on the whole spy ring now before they could react.

Re:Did they?

[glwtta]

The mens rea was the attempt, but if there is no actus rea did they really break the law?

Every notice how people who try too hard to sound smart, end up sounding stupid?

Re:Did they?

[elucido]

It's illegal to act as the agent of a foreign government on US soil without declaring yourself as such. I believe most of them are being charged for conspiracy to do just that, while some are being charged with money laundering, which humorously enough carries a much longer maximum sentence.

What is the point of the charges? If the FBI would have let them leave or arrested them what difference would it make?

Re:Did they?

[Radtoo]

I also think this is US internal politics at play.

Capturing spies is somewhat offensive anyhow, you just know any country won't stop needing information about the very existential (nuclear) threat- nor will it be wise to stop the other country from acquiring a good amount of information or stop all its spies, for that matter. It doesn't mean that you have to tolerate industrial / technology espionage, but letting spies check on the military / civilian industry is unavoidable when you're essentially in a nuclear stalemate with other nations. Taking 10 of them into custody for shady reasons is nothing but a stupid political statement of a group dissenting with current domestic politics, an attempt to cajole the Russians into doing the same to force hands.

Lets see if someone reviews and influences the case in the white house.

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

why would throwing the charger away do anything?

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

I second that.

Re:Did they?

[Jarnin]

Probably in the same way that the Bureau of Investigation knew that Al Capone was breaking the law. They just didn't have the evidence to get a conviction until they discovered he'd cheated on his taxes.

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>..... 'Conspiracy to Act as Unregistered Agents of a Foreign Government' (Title 18, 951) which is much broader and covers many otherwise non-criminal activities if performed at the behest of a foreign power.

  Do the 5000 attendees of the annual AIPAC conference fit this category too?

Re:Did they?

[Fred Ferrigno]

She knew she was under surveillance, so she wasn't going to keep the phone long enough for the FBI to get a tap on it.

Re:Did they?

[impeach]

"precrime"?

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they didn't 'see/steal/copy' anything, was anything actually spied upon?

The mens rea was the attempt, but if there is no actus rea did they really break the law?

Everything useful I learn about America seems to come from foreign news agencies so maybe the source of the great journalism that appears in foreign networks and media has been discovered? I have often wondered foreigner media could air the stuff that explains what happened today in America. Gee, I hope the foreign news and journalism quality does not suffer.
     

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny if that's the only case that it's as big a deal as it is. Mexico has people doing that by a factor of at least 1000. (Esp. the money laundering and false documents and having people exerting political influence for a foreign interest without declaring so.) But then again they could care less about any possible U.S. secrets. As long as the drugs or drug money gets through, they're more than happy making sure that they purchase the right to be held unaccountable by U.S. politicians and law enforcement. And even if a high level politician isn't directly hooked up with drugs or drug money, there's probably some close friend or family that could be threatened or blackmailed by one of the cartels if they choose to do so.

Right now Arizona is the only one that seems to be publicly making the "I see what you did there" face in regards to that country. But unfortunately the feds are unwilling to do anything. As to when people will start calling the Feds on their complicit inaction will be another thing...

Of course Russia is left looking a little silly now, but if they wanted in on collusion and political influence over here - they still have nothing on our southern neighbor. The Russian Mafia just isn't big enough in comparison.

Re:Did they?

[RMH101]

...Good point. I think it would be naive to think that there aren't a similar number of US interests working in the USSR under cover. I'd imagine most security services have people placed in other countries, whether acting as casual informants or full-on espionage.

Re:Did they?

[someone1234]

If they have been KNOWN by the FBI for 10 years (which means they operated for more than 10 years), and they didn't breach any government secrets so far, what kind of spies they were???

Re:Did they?

[CAIMLAS]

Notice how there hasn't been nearly as much mention of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill this past week? Or the Blagovich trial?

Yet there's this spy thing and this Kagan SC nomination (which surely isn't serious, on account of her lacking any serious qualifications). Both of these things have been initiated by the executive branch in a time when a distraction poses itself useful, politically.

So, really, it's not such a mystery. It's just a distraction.

Re:Did they?

[tehcyder]

It's illegal to act as the agent of a foreign government on US soil without declaring yourself as such.

So if you register as a spy, then you're OK, and can just get with your spying? Cool.

Re:Did they?

[kevinNCSU]

That is correct, they're called Embassy Attaches ;)

That's only in half jest actually. They could do most of the things these people did with impunity (recruiting and trying to run agents) but the difference is they are declared and marked and therefore the people they meet with and try to recruit would be made and marked thus making them much more impotent.

Re:Did they?

[Keebler71]

Mod parent up... good analysis...

Re:Did they?

[Anonymous Coward]

it ment she had no plan to keep the phone... duhhh

Re:Did they?

[Dishevel]

Still. It is the stupid that thrive under these laws.

Typical

[girlintraining]

"Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed. None of the 11 charged by US prosecutors was accused of accessing any classified or sensitive US government information."

This is typical of Russian intelligence activity. The book The Sword and the Shield: Mitrokhin Archive details most of the Soviet operations up until the mid 80s. This sounds like more of the same techniques: Attempting to attract young, impressionable, college-educated people to their cause and then trying to guide them into positions where they can gain intel. Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture and so they find it difficult to penetrate deeply into any establishment domestically.

Historically, their most successful intelligence gathering operations were either through signals intelligence or from defectors who wanted monentary compensation. Their recruiting efforts have been laughably under-planned. This is just another example. Their resources would be better spent in open source intelligence to identify vulnerable individuals who could be blackmailed than attempting to sway them on idealistic grounds. Communism just isn't that sexy. Sadly for them, I don't think they have the resources anymore to do much more than the French -- industrial espionage is as far as they get too. But at least the French make money on their intelligence operations...

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia is no longer a communist state.

Re:Typical

[Wyatt Earp]

This is correct, the Russians always have bad luck with Russian agents placed in the West, but did really good with politically sympathetic people in power or greedy ones looking for the money.

Re:Typical

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Communism just isn't that sexy.

I think that I could be persuaded otherwise...

Re:Typical

[Kell Bengal]

Communism isn't that sexy; fortunately for them, they realised that some of their agents are...

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

One disturbing aspect:
http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/breaking-news-gold-connection/413174

A copy of the complaint is here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33673421/Complaint-in-Mestos-Case

Re:Typical

[schwaang]

Yeah, the Ruskis are laughable at penetrating US institutions!

Signed, Your BFFs,
Aldrich Ames and
Robert Hanssen.

Re:Typical

[stephanruby]

Communism just isn't that sexy.

I think you meant to say: Putin just isn't that sexy anymore. Our previous President may have had a huge man-crush on him, but now I think it's fair to say former President George W. Bush is totally over Putin, and has moved on to bigger and better things.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture and so they find it difficult to penetrate deeply into any establishment domestically

That you know of.

Re:Typical

[girlintraining]

Yeah, the Ruskis are laughable at penetrating US institutions!

Wiki quotes:
"By 1985, Aldrich was heavily in debt. He owed money because of the divorce, and Maria was spending freely. After exceeding his credit limit on different credit cards, Aldrich considered robbing a bank. Realising he had no experience in performing such a caper, he instead decided to pursue the less hazardous option of selling information to the Soviets."

"Hanssen never indicated any political or ideological motive for his activities, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was the money." ... Rather proves my point: They both approached the KGB, not the other way around.

Re:Typical

[timeOday]

No, those were not "young, impressionable, college-educated people to their cause and then trying to guide them into positions where they can gain intel." They were simply sellouts. (Then again, neither were they defectors who wanted money, as the parent claimed...)

Re:Typical

[fm6]

That true, and also important. But needs amplification:

When The Sword and the Shield was written, the conflict between the two superpowers was perceived by most people as a struggle between ideologies: socialism versus the free market, utopianism versus pragmatism, etc. Not entirely true, but it gave Soviet operatives many opportunities to convince disaffected or idealistic people that they were the good guys.

Nowadays, the conflict between the surviving superpower and the heirs of the late USSR is mostly economic. It's one thing to ask people to risk everything for The Worker's Paradise, quite another to do it for a cadre of Russian billionaires.

Re:Typical

[girlintraining]

Russia is no longer a communist state.

No, it's classified loosely as a "federation", just like the United States is. That doesn't mean our cultures have much in common.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Implying Russia was ever a communist state.

This is purely a troll post by the way, made for my amusement. Please mod it as such.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Those guys are Americans

Re:Typical

[glwtta]

Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture and so they find it difficult to penetrate deeply into any establishment domestically.

Oh please, you'd think that Russians were from the fucking moon. American and (contemporary) Russian cultures are built around the same main principles: a) power is based on wealth, b) the people as a whole are materialistic to a distasteful degree, and c) pop music sucks. In at least two of those, Russia has actually surpassed the US. No one wakes up in Russia with the consuming yearning to build the Workers' Paradise (and hardly anyone ever has, at that).

And Russians love American culture; not sure who that says more about.

Re:Typical

[elucido]

Yeah, the Ruskis are laughable at penetrating US institutions!

Wiki quotes:
"By 1985, Aldrich was heavily in debt. He owed money because of the divorce, and Maria was spending freely. After exceeding his credit limit on different credit cards, Aldrich considered robbing a bank. Realising he had no experience in performing such a caper, he instead decided to pursue the less hazardous option of selling information to the Soviets."

"Hanssen never indicated any political or ideological motive for his activities, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was the money." ... Rather proves my point: They both approached the KGB, not the other way around.

Wrong. Hansen approached the KGB. He literally walked into the embassy and threw intel at them. The reason the FBI couldn't catch him is because he worked for the FBI.

Re:Typical

[Macrat]

Russia is no longer a communist state.

They want you to think that...

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia never was a communist state.

Re:Typical

[lul_wat]

I imagine Hansens approach to be somewhat like "So I know some secrets, why don't you have a seat over there."

Re:Typical

[schwaang]

From your OP:

Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture and so they find it difficult to penetrate deeply into any establishment domestically.

Yet the Russians ended up with moles in the CIA and FBI who were placed highly enough to accomplish shamefully *epic* damage to the US. Knock them for style points all you want, but dangling the $$ just plain worked. We got our @sses handed to us.

Re:Typical

[Fred Ferrigno]

If you read the complaint, these people got paid close to six figure salaries to write a monthly reports about American politics using mostly publicly available information and a spattering of first-hand reporting. A lot of bloggers do more work for much less money.

Re:Typical

[girlintraining]

Yet the Russians ended up with moles in the CIA and FBI who were placed highly enough to accomplish shamefully *epic* damage to the US. Knock them for style points all you want, but dangling the $$ just plain worked. We got our @sses handed to us.

Hardly a systemic problem on our part. We've recruited quite a bit more spies than they have, quite a few for idealistic motives or dissatisfaction with their government. They come despite the low pay, dangerous extractions, etc., because frankly the US is a good place to live. We don't pay people who turn coat a lot of money, but what we offer them is a chance to start fresh, anonymously, on a big slab of rock that has the best economy and chance for personal wealth and success anywhere in the world.

In short; We usually only offer citizenship. And often, that's enough incentive all by itself.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture ...
Historically, their most successful intelligence gathering operations were either through signals intelligence or from defectors who wanted monentary compensation.

aren't you contradicting yourself? :)

apparently you've never heard of kim philby and others from cambridge five.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the militant jingoism is what both USA and Russia have in common alright.

Re:Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor guys in jail for life, 23hours of solitary confinement... should just let them out, I'm sure they learned their lessons.

Re:Typical

[plover]

I still don't think those in power understand American motivations. America is driven by a complex mix of money, corporations, special interests, corruption, etc., but at the core is the optimistic attitude of individual freedom, and a genuine belief that the government we see is in control.

Russia never seems to act like they believe that. It's like they are always trying to figure out which politicians are the corrupt ones making the significant decisions; kind of like an international shell game of "Where's Rasputin?" Any student of history knows that every government ever has been abusive and corrupt, and the Russians are famous for studying history. So they never accepted the answer that the U.S. was any different -- they always thought they just hadn't dug deep enough yet to uncover the real truth. And they are also puzzled that if we have these corrupt people, why aren't we using them to get stuff done?

I sometimes think they know more about the dirty undersides of our politics even more than our own FBI.

Re:Typical

[CAIMLAS]

No, America is the communist country now (or getting there damn fast).

Russia is just an increasingly totalitarian country.

Re:Typical

[electron sponge]

aren't you contradicting yourself? :)

apparently you've never heard of kim philby and others from cambridge five.

Kim Philby was British, not American. Likewise for the other known members of the Cambridge Five. It says so right in the articles you linked.

Lobbying VS Spying

[Mrdzone]

I love how when they don't declare themselves it's "spying" but when they do it's simply "lobbying." Brilliant!

Re:Lobbying VS Spying

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you know how lobbying works.

I work for lobbyists. Soulless, but not spies.

Re:Lobbying VS Spying

[Reilaos]

It's kinda like the difference between peep show and voyeurism.

Re:Lobbying VS Spying

[grumpyman]

Also I believe you have to register to be lobbyist.

News at 11 - countries spy on each other!

[fantomas]

Shocking! you mean countries spy on each other in this day and age? Expect Russia to expel a few US "aides to diplomats", US to make lots of unhappy noises, and the whole thing to die down again. Heads of respective intelligence agencies nod at each other at the next major summit and agree to go back to business as normal.

I can imagine a phone has gone off in Moscow: "hi Ivan, it's Bob here from Washington. Sorry about that, the new president needed to see a bit of action. You expel a few of our small guys, our newspapers will make some noise, and all will be back to normal. See you down the club next time you're in town."

All very John Le Carre I am sure.

Re:News at 11 - countries spy on each other!

[TheKidWho]

Don't be a knee jerking idiot. The last thing Russia needs right now is to flex its muscle and strain relations with the USA which have been improving since the end of the cold war.

Re:News at 11 - countries spy on each other!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be a knee jerking idiot. The last thing the USA needs right now is to flex its muscle and strain the relations with Russia which have been improving since the end of the cold war.

See how easy that was?

Please keep in mind that both the USA and Russia have massive nuclear arsenals, most of which are pointed at each other.

Re:News at 11 - countries spy on each other!

[shutdown -p now]

The last thing Russia needs right now is to flex its muscle and strain relations with the USA which have been improving since the end of the cold war.

That's precisely what Russia has been doing pretty much since Putin came to power. A strong anti-US, anti-NATO stance, at least in material targeted at internal consumption within the country (government-backed mass media etc), is a big part of his populist "patriotic" platform.

In any case, compared to major foreign policy splits, such as over Kosovo in 1999, over Iraq in 2003, and over South Ossetia in 2008, the usual row over espionage is minor and routine.

And now the bad news

[Locke2005]

The masterminds of the ring, Boris Badenov, Natasha Fatale, and Fearless Leader, are still at large.

They should play the AIPAC gambit

[Anonymous Coward]

It works every time.

Spy?

[gestalt_n_pepper]

New job posting! Live in the USA. Get an absurdly high salary. Hobnob with politicians. Raise hydrangeas. Provide nearly useless tidbits of information. Pick your job title from the following list:

1) Journalist
2) Spy
3) Lobbyist
4) Politician running for office
5) Lawyer
6) Wealthy old money parasite
7) Failed CEO of HP/Compaq, Microsoft, Enron or any Hedge fund.
8) Oprah (or generic talk show host)

Spy stories

[dimethylxanthine]

You have to admit ./ lags at least a few days behind on spy-related stories. Oh, unless these are lated to WoW and nethack, of course...

Re:Spy stories

[phantomfive]

It's ok, sometimes it's nice to give the story time to settle a bit before posting it. That way you can have people who are at least a little knowledgeable commenting on the subject, instead of the typical, "she's hot!" comments that you get on a lot of other sites.

Re:Spy stories

[Bakkster]

One day is not really 'a few days'.

Its a scam

[nurb432]

This is just to get free press for a new movie.

Re:Its a scam

[RafaelAngel]

I thought the same too. It's just so strange that a movie about this topic just happens to be coming out. Salt--if you're interested.

Nothing to see here

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not convinced that these "spies" were doing anything all that sinister.
Without any actual knowledge of US operations, I can assure you that we have spies like these in Russia, Britain, Australia, Every Country of the EU, and Every Country of the Mid-East.
Where do you think the information in the "CIA World Factbook" comes from?

Re:Nothing to see here

[MightyMartian]

Where do you think the information in the "CIA World Factbook" comes from?

Wikipedia?

Re:Nothing to see here

[theverylastperson]

Moose and Squirrel?

Re:Nothing to see here

[1000101]

No, no... Wikileaks

What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[mykos]

Any slashdotters in the upper echelons of our more secretive government agencies care to fill us in?

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[wfolta]

Hidden secrets. Mysterious secrets. Enigmatic secrets.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[hamburgler007]

No.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[halivar]

Oh, but of course. See, what the Russian spies REALLY wanted, and almost got, are outlined in secret documents in the Pentagon which I will describe here...

Hey... wait a second! Damn you, mykos, but you are a clever one... almost got me that time.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[MozeeToby]

Hardly in the upper echelons but based on the security briefings I've received the answer is tiny, insignificant bits and pieces that you would tell anyone in passing but which can be put together to see the bigger picture. Of course, this was during a briefing about how important it was to keep secret things secret so that might be an exageration to instil a sense that the little things are important but the techniques they warned against backed up their statements. Engineers in particular are apparently susceptible to minor insults against a project they are working on. They will jump to devend it even if it means leaking non-trivial details.

As an example:
Spy - "I heard that the Air Force's new radios can't even do X"
Engineer - "What!? of course it can do X, we can even do X with Y and Z!"

Where X, Y, and Z are small details that are never the less classified information.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[SnarfQuest]

They now know what percentage of our dentists recommand various brands of gum, for those patients who chew gum.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[Arthur Grumbine]

Actually, I have it from a reliable source that they're very interested in the most extreme potential consequences of the obesity epidemic. Specifically, as manifested in your mom. :-P

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[shutdown -p now]

Well, if you read the recently published official complaint, SVR gave one of the agents the following order:

in its January 2010 messages, the SVR also instructed MURPHY to buy certain computer equipment using "all necessary precausions [sic]: no preliminary order, pay cash, destroy receipts, etc.," and to bring that computer equipment to Center.

and it was carried out:

A database of sales maintained by the Computer Store reflected that, earlier that day, an individual who identified himself as "David Hiller" had paid cash for, inter alia, an ASUS EEE PC 1005HA-P laptop computer. This was the make and model of computer that the SVR had directed MURPHY to buy.

(I kid you not, it's page 28 in the PDF.)

So there. I mean, for sure, it was a cunning plan to bug it and then sneak it in as a gift to Obama alongside his BlackBerry... though as a Russian myself, I'm tempted to conclude that SVR is financed so badly that they purchase laptops for themselves indirectly through agents in the field, so they can write off the price as operative expenses. ~

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[vlueboy]

Oh, but of course. See, what the Russian spies REALLY wanted, and almost got, are outlined in secret documents in the Pentagon which I will describe here...

Hey... wait a second! Damn you, mykos, but you are a clever one... almost got me that time.

Rather clever misdirection aimed at the feds! What you really mean is "Expect my Wikileak at 11!" ;)

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[Chris Burke]

So... I shouldn't have bragged about how the subject of my experiments into human psychic abilities had been visited by key members of parliament?

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[mjwx]

As an example:
Spy - "I heard that the Air Force's new radios can't even do X"
counter spy - "What!? of course it can do X, we can even do X with Y and Z!"

Next week in [_]MOSCOW/[_]WASHINGTON.
Spy - "The [_]AMERICANS/[_]RUSSIANS can do Z with their radios"
Taskmaster - "What, that is impossible" /picks up phone.
Taskmaster - "[_]COMRADE/[_]SENATOR we have a serious issue, the [_]AMERICANS/[_]RUSSIANS can do Z"
Politician - "We cant allow a Z gap."

Meanwhile Z does not actually exist but it is sometimes important to make the enemy think you are more advanced then you really are. But this does not apply to the situation at hand, which is just bog standard sabre rattling.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[Fred Ferrigno]

It's pretty clear from the complaint that the laptop was loaded with software to communicate with their handlers. They asked him to get that model so they could swap it with another laptop of the same model with everything already set up.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course engineers are vulnerable to spies. They sap their sentries.

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[L4t3r4lu5]

I don't have a whole lot of time.

OK, I'm a former employee of Area 51. I was let go on a medical discharge about a week ago and, and I've kind of been running across the country. I don't know where to start! They're going to triangulate on this position really really soon.

OK, what we're thinking of as aliens are extradimensional beings that an earlier precursor of the space program made contact with. They are not what they claim to be! They've infiltrated a lot of aspects of the military establishment, particularly the Area 51. The disasters that are coming, they, the military, the government knows about them. And there's a lot of safe areas in this world that they could begin moving the population to now. They are not!

They want those major population centers wiped out so that the few that are left will be more easily controllab7&*(^[CARRIER LOST]

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[warGod3]

Sure. I'm really an engineer at Area 51 and will disclose anything that you need to know...

Re:What secrets do spies hope to obtain?

[sebkul]

I can see it now:
Back home in mother Russia:
-“Comrade, is that a new laptop? I know we don’t pay you enough to get one”
-“Oh, it was sent back by one of our field agents I’m ‘studying’ it.”
-“Hmmm have the agent send me a 60 inch LCD TV I’ll ‘study’ it at home.”

Sex Sells

[Daetrin]

Okay, raise your hands, how many people got to the bit about "while the Post favors the femme fatale angle (alleged spy Anna Chapman)" and immediately stopped to go do some google searches on this spy in particular?

Re:Sex Sells

[Koby77]

Hey, c'mon they listed her linkedin profile. It's almost not fair when they make it that easy.

Re:Sex Sells

[Alsee]

And here are the photos everyone is looking for.

Yes, I'd definitely say she's hot.

-

Re:Sex Sells

[elucido]

Too hot and too smart to be real.

Re:Sex Sells

[chapstercni]

Of course I did. I admit it cheerfully.

Re:Sex Sells

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, your comments on this topic make you sound like a misogynist and a creep.

I really hope you don't talk like this in real life.

Re:Sex Sells

[Chris Burke]

Hmmm, she looks kind familiar.

let the "in Soviet Russia" jokes start...

[Anonymous Coward]

My lame attempt: In Soviet USA (think tea-party image of Obama ;) Russia spies you.

Re:let the "in Soviet Russia" jokes start...

[dragisha]

In Soviet Russia they are using line-of-sight encryption only.

hydrangeas

[phantomfive]

If anyone is interested in a picture of the (totally unrelated) said hydrangeas, I believe these are the ones. I guess the lawn could have used a bit more care, though

Re:hydrangeas

[Anonymous Coward]

This just in, spies are regular people, too. That person who said she wasn't a spy because of her flower garden is an idiot.

Why now for the lightweight ???

[redelm]

Normally western counterespionage groups are very reluctant to charge anyone because the trials will leak their methods to their adversaries.

So the FBI would only bring charges this fluffy for some other reason. What are we being distracted from?

Re:Why now for the lightweight ???

[Anonymous Coward]

The FBI was attempting to gain control of the group by impersonating as handlers. One of the group got suspicious so the FBI felt like they needed to wrap it up before they all went home.

Re:Why now for the lightweight ???

[bigsimes]

America probably turned one of the russian agents, sending them all back together muddies the water and might make it harder to figure out who is the turncoat. Either way, it seems funny because if there is any speculation that one could have been turned then they all will be out in the cold anyway, so whatever is happening here is going to involve something happening quickly as they are all burned.

Laptop exchange?

[dragisha]

Does anybody RTFA these days?

Part about Anna Chapman claims her drop was over line-of-sight laptop contact.

All this by person with her own online real-estate bussiness...

Of course it's bought wholesale.... By willing public.

Relayed information

[SnarfQuest]

Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed.

But, they could have relayed important statistics gleaned from the "Daily Kos"!

Russia 0 - Wikileaks 1

[srussia]

"Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot."

Re:Russia 0 - Wikileaks 1

[zippthorne]

Unless they're keeping the secrets compromised.. secret. the only way you'd know is if you compromised that.

intelligence value

[ebunga]

Just because it's not secret doesn't mean it's not valuable and just because it's not valuable doesn't mean it's not secret.

In Soviet Russia

[AioKits]

Spy ring busts you!

Holy hell, I think we got a true 'soviet russia' this time!

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Evtim]

In Soviet Russia....

Many years ago in an Easter European communist state a new type of toilet paper was introduced - not a single but double layered. Extra strong! Wow! Immediately a joke was invented:

Q: What's with this new double layered toilet paper?
A: One layer goes to the KGB archive!

After the collapse of the system yet another paper arrived - triple layered! The joke - ohh well, times have changed, now the CIA needs a copy too!

Re:In Soviet Russia

[AioKits]

I hope you don't mind if I add that one to my collection...

She looks like a spy.

[elucido]

Too good looking and too smart.

Any woman who looks like that and who has a masters degree in economics is almost certainly a spy. No ordinary woman looks that good and is that smart.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[MozeeToby]

Somebody better lock up Winnie Cooper before she steals all our secrets then. (Not to mention a host of other beautiful women who just happen to be highly educated).

Re:She looks like a spy.

[elucido]

Somebody better lock up Winnie Cooper before she steals all our secrets then. (Not to mention a host of other beautiful women who just happen to be highly educated).

There aren't very many of them. Also the spy woman was over the top, she ran her own business too. How many models are smart and run successful businesses? If it's less than 1% of the people you've met then when you meet one thats probably the spy.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[MozeeToby]

Well, you could argue that most actresses essentially run their own business, they have assistants to a greater or lesser extent but in the end they are selling a product. Everyone always assumes that actresses are stupid, the reality is that while they are doubtlessly attractive, even if they're in the top .01% of women that still leaves an awful lot of competition. Look at Pamela Anderson, how much money has she made over the years selling what basically amounts to her personality and appearance? That does in fact take a kind of intelligence, maybe different from a PHD in economics kind of intelligence, but certainly still intelligence.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[elucido]

Well, you could argue that most actresses essentially run their own business, they have assistants to a greater or lesser extent but in the end they are selling a product. Everyone always assumes that actresses are stupid, the reality is that while they are doubtlessly attractive, even if they're in the top .01% of women that still leaves an awful lot of competition. Look at Pamela Anderson, how much money has she made over the years selling what basically amounts to her personality and appearance? That does in fact take a kind of intelligence, maybe different from a PHD in economics kind of intelligence, but certainly still intelligence.

Anyone that hot, that smart and that successful is automatically suspect. Most successful actresses may very well be spies, but the same could be said about most successful actors. They do fit the profile.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[mikael_j]

Ah, but apart from acting skills it's not so much intelligence that's required in the movie/theatre world, it's social skills. And I'm not talking about solid regular social skills but the ability to stab your competitors in the back while they do the same to you and still come out of it smiling and acting like friends. Brown-nosing is a big part of it as well. Really, it's not intelligence, you need to have strong social skills coupled with "management personality" (meaning: willing to climb to the top by using the bodies of your foes as a staircase).

And no, I don't consider social skills to be "intelligence", mainly because I have several friends who are extremely good at all the little "tricks" that come with being good at social skills yet they will readily admit that they're far from intelligent both when it comes to "hard science" stuff and things like spelling and rote memorization, they're just good at being social.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody expected Anna Trustmekova to be a Russian spy.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[royallthefourth]

Have you invented a time travel device that allows you to post from 1955?

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Anonymous Coward]

And not just from 1955, but from where in the world? You could throw a rock in New York, maybe on the subway, and hit such a woman with >1% probability. Maybe that was less true in 1955 in the sense that fewer women had master's degrees, but certainly not less true re. how smart they were, and your average woman on the street in New York looks pretty damn good. And is not a spy.

And if you're actually looking for such a woman (smart non-spy), you look at NYU or Columbia or whatever, rather than throwing rocks on the subway, and they are everywhere.

Or in the college town of your choice anywhere in the world, pretty much.

I live out in the sticks, so I can sympathize with the idea that there aren't many smart, beautiful women around your particular location. But no spies, either, I imagine. There certainly aren't any out here.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[elucido]

Have you invented a time travel device that allows you to post from 1955?

Most women with masters degrees don't look like super models. That goes for 1955, 1995, 2005 and probably 2055 too. Look at most of the women you see running businesses with masters degrees. Look at most of the women you know, have known, have met, do they look as good?

Sure maybe 1 or 2 women and they very well could be spies. You never know who is what.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[broknstrngz]

Most women with masters degrees don't look like super models.

On your continent they don't. Come to Europe, I'll introduce you to several. BTW, they also cook ;)

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Ruvim]

So, her facebook page lists 100+ friends... how many of those will get a friendly visit from FBI? :)

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Heretic2]

She can spy on what's in my pants! FIFTH GRADE HUMOR WHUT?

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

http://www.sncorp.com/about/cobwelcome.shtml

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Anonymous Coward]

you sir, are a fool.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[Jedi Alec]

Ah, but apart from acting skills it's not so much intelligence that's required in the movie/theatre world, it's social skills. And I'm not talking about solid regular social skills but the ability to stab your competitors in the back while they do the same to you and still come out of it smiling and acting like friends. Brown-nosing is a big part of it as well. Really, it's not intelligence, you need to have strong social skills coupled with "management personality" (meaning: willing to climb to the top by using the bodies of your foes as a staircase).

And this is different from the business world how exactly?

Re:She looks like a spy.

[mikael_j]

I didn't say it was, I just said that it wasn't exactly "intelligence" in the way that most people would use the word.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Model, millionaire pro poker player, heavy metal fan, Astrophysics graduate.

Liv Boeree

Re:She looks like a spy.

[roman_mir]

Yeah, it's called alcohol induced delirium, compete with hallucinations of demons disguised as progressives.

Re:She looks like a spy.

[eulernet]

Why not somebody hotter, like the porn-star Asia Carrera ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Carrera

So

[Anonymous Coward]

THe spies were Allegedly Russian?

Re:So

[zill]

Some of the tinfoils hats are claiming they're actually Chinese spies trying to disguise as Russian spies.

Re:So

[selven]

What if they're just pretending to be Chinese spies pretending to be Russian spies, and they're actually Canadian spies?

Re:So

[Anonymous Coward]

Or so the Germans would have us think...

"intelligenct"???

[jc42]

to infiltrate the upper echelons of US government and business circles and pass back intelligence to the Russians

If they're looking for intelligence, the past couple of decades of US government and business decisions should be enough to convince anyone with a few ounces of brain that that's not the place to look for it.

Re:"intelligenct"???

[oodaloop]

I guess I'll be the asshole to point out that if you're going to make a bad pun about intelligence (knowledge of enemy vs intellect), it helps to spell intelligence correctly. Working in the intelligence community myself, I can't stand these jokes to being with anyway.

Yes

[Sycraft-fu]

Same way as it is illegal to try and murder someone, but fail. It isn't the same crime, or the same punishment, but it is still illegal.

So actually giving classified secrets to a foreign power is a very serious crime. It is the kind of thing that can earn life in prison, or even death if it is done during war time. Working as an agent for a foreign government and trying to get classified data is also illegal, though less so.

Re:Yes

[emt377]

So actually giving classified secrets to a foreign power is a very serious crime. It is the kind of thing that can earn life in prison, or even death if it is done during war time. Working as an agent for a foreign government and trying to get classified data is also illegal, though less so.

As far as I can tell there was no classified information involved. They did things like collect media information on how Russia and its politics are portrayed and perceived in the U.S. There is no harm to the U.S. - it's purely a 'procedural' charge, for failing to register. Every country engages in these activities in just about every foreign country, it's not considered harmful or hostile, just plain simple information gathering. In addition, transferring files over WiFi is not all that advanced these days, and encryption is pretty much standard in the intelligence community and doesn't really mean a whole lot. To the 'spies' it was probably just contract work - they got paid like any other journalist or writer.

Of course, there could have been something else going on, but on the face of it as explained it seems pretty frivolous to bother arresting them. Instead of, say, reminding them to file paperwork and pay their fees.

Re:Yes

[dreampod]

The lengths they went to in order to communicate clandestinely was quite significant and far beyond what anyone who engage in doing if they were not concealing something. If you look up a bit in the thread I have a run down of the specific statutes they are being charged under. However it summarizes very quickly as: they aren't being charged with espionage but with being an unregistered agent of a foreign government. In addition they were involved with transfering falsified identity documents, using false identity documents, and money laundering.

Have a read over the complaints yourself, they are pretty damning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/28_06_10_us_spies_complaint_1.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/28_06_10_us_spies_complaint_2.pdf

Famous spy name

[skarhand]

I find it interesting that the woman has the same last name as a famous British spy, Eddie Chapman.

see how powerful hollywood is?

[circletimessquare]

they have a stupid angelina jolie spy theme movie coming out, where she is a russian spy deep under cover in the usa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(film)

with the recent bombing of tom cruise and cameron diaz's knight and day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_and_Day#Critical_response

hollywood is worried about how another star vehicle film will perform at the box office

so they pull a few strings, make a few calls, and create anticipatory buzz in the press and the public by forcing the cia to prematurely close its multiyear investigation of russian spies at work in the usa

now that's power

Re:see how powerful hollywood is?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, they even hired someone to post on /.

Re:see how powerful hollywood is?

[zill]

Too bad CIA used all their mod points to mod him troll.

just google "US Government Secrets"

[peter303]

Who needs spies anymore when you have google.

Whew

[cloakedpegasus]

Finally the story is up on slashdot. Btw, I wonder how much more the Salt film is going to make, after hearing about all this spy news i'm psyched to go see a spy movie!

Tradecraft 101

[TiggertheMad]

Why the FBI chose to arrest them now is the mystery because the FBI knew for over a decade.

Part of the spy game is not letting on that you know what is going on. By letting them conduct operations in against non-critical assets, you get to see how they operate, who they work with, and who they answer to. You can unravel their network to watch and catch other agents. You can set them up to pass false information. You can collect vast amounts of incriminating evidence to use to force them to become double agents. You can find out what they think you are doing and what they are worried about, and use that to play on their fears.

Re:Tradecraft 101

[timeOday]

That would explain why they weren't arrested for the last 10 years, but not why they were arrested now.

Re:Tradecraft 101

[ravenshrike]

The FBI got too arrogant when playing the one spy, she realized she was burned, and attempted to warn the others. They then had to grab everyone. And they still missed someone.

Re:Tradecraft 101

[Artifakt]

The thing is, there's usually something happening every few months between the US and any nation it has trouble with. Publicise a problem with North Korea one month, everyone guesses it relates to missle testing. Wait a month, and it must have something to do with them holding some hikers who supposedly strayed across the border. Wait one more and it has something to do with them arguing with Japan, or South Korea, or China. Either the government never goes public at all, or it goes public when something is happening and some people craft a theory that the two factors are related.

Re:Tradecraft 101

[EmperorOuk]

Did anyone else read this in Michael Weston's voice?

Re:Tradecraft 101

[rapiddescent]

Part of the spy game is not letting on that you know what is going on. By letting them conduct operations in against non-critical assets, you get to see how they operate, who they work with, and who they answer to. You can unravel their network to watch and catch other agents. You can set them up to pass false information. ... etc etc

it has a name and is called "counter-intelligence".

Re:Tradecraft 101

[Anonymous Coward]

True, the FBI could have turned one or more of them and returning them to russia enables them to expand the chain at the other end, these guys are probably going to be in for some harsh times when they get back. They are all burned probably, but the russians will want to know if any of them turned, regardless they will not be doing anything like this again most likely..

Surprisingly good work.

The team who took them down?

[vlad30]

http://www.chuckonline.net/

Steganography?

[fm6]

You've got to be kidding me. Haven't these folks heard of PGP? Or are they just determined to act out a bad spy novel?

Re:Steganography?

[goodmanj]

Cryptography is for people don't want others to learn their secrets.
Steganography is for people who don't want others to know there *is* a secret.

Re:Steganography?

[fm6]

Right, and sending lots of pictures to a friend in Moscow isn't going to arouse suspicion. An encrypted email sent from an account nobody knows you have is more to the point.

Re:Steganography?

[goodmanj]

Why bother *sending* them to anyone? Just post some family shots on Picasa and make the album public. Hell, one of the spies worked as a real estate agent: posting photos on the net is a big part of her job.

People post millions of public pictures on the Net every day, it's not the least bit suspicious.

You know you think like a spy if

[dorpus]

Have you ever:

- tasted more than one sausage at the sample counter, but didn't buy any?
- sampled a grape at the supermarket?
- picked up a penny at the fountain?
- walked out of a coffee shop with a newspaper that you weren't sure was free?
- accidentally kept something in your shopping cart, but didn't bother to return it?
- borrowed the fire ax from downtown to chop down a tree in your yard?
- kept shopping carts in your garage?
- got a refund for your doctor's co-pay via medical supplies?
- wrote a check to the church for $10, and helped yourself to $9 in change from the collection plate?
- leafed through someone else's medical records at the hospital?
- decorated your college dorm room with a traffic sign?
- stowed extra rolls of toilet paper into your backpack?
- palmed the salt & pepper shakers at the restaurant?
- re-purposed the movie theater exit sign into a night light for your room?
- made off with the weights from the gym?
- packed the hotel towels?
- reached down for a box of candy, out of sight from the cashier?
- lifted a jacket off of a sleeping person in the library, because it looked so heavy on their back?
- rummaged through a stranger's purse?
- helped yourself to the donation can for cancer kids, so you can buy some nyquil?
- sampled girl scout cookies, while pocketing the money can?
- liberated a bird from the pet shop?
- packed a stranger's puppy into your gym bag?
- decided your in-law's jewelry looks better on your fingers?
- filled your tank with somebody else's credit card, while they went inside?
- scolded a kid at the park that they shouldn't own a cell phone, so you taught them a lesson?
- told a skateboarder you'll show them a really cool trick, and rode away?
- decided to help the local construction site by steering their crane on sunday?
- helped the local fire department by driving their truck somewhere else?
- helped your new neighbor by making their moving truck disappear?
- made off with the manhole lid, and watched cars get destroyed?

FBI screwed up?

[aethogamous]

From the complaint:

... During 2009, the SVR- directed CYNTHIA MURPHY, the defendant , to " strengthen...ties w. classmates on daily basis in cl. professors who can help in job search and who will have (or already have) access to secret info , " and to "[r]eport to C[enter] on their detailed personal data and character traits w. preliminary conclusions about their potential (vulnerability) to be recruited by Service ."In response, and on many occasions, the New Jersey Conspirators conveyed names of University affiliates to Center - which then conducted checks in "C'sdatabase" to determine if a particular potential "target" was or was not "clean. "Thus, for example, when an SVR database check revealed that a particular contact of CYNTHIA MURPHY's had been suspected by a then- Sovietbloc intelligence service of belonging to a "foreign spy net[work] ,"MURPHY was told" to avoid deepening contact with them for sec[urity] reasons."...

I am guessing that the untold story behind the here is that the FBI tried to insert itself in some manner into the ring (for example, posing as contacts), but someone in the ring became suspicious. In which case the FBI may have screwed up - a much much better outcome would be to have the ring continue under surveillance. So why did the FBI attempt this? Apart from the possibility of providing misleading information to the SVR, another useful possibility is to find out the SVR thought about certain individuals (i.e. are they 'clean').

Re:FBI screwed up?

[goodmanj]

Yes, this is apparently what happened. Read pages 8-13 of the criminal complaint. After years of covert surveillance, three days ago the FBI arranged a meeting between an undercover agent posing as a Russian intelligence official and one of the alleged spies.

The undercover agent knew the right code phrases, but asked a lot of nosy questions. He/she actually convinced the Russian agent to give him/her the laptop she used for secret communications so it could be repaired, which has got to be one of the ballsiest counterespionage moves ever. But the Russian agent apparently got suspicious, bought a disposable cell phone, called for confirmation, and never showed up for a followup meeting.

At this point, the FBI decided to haul in the net.

Conspiracy going from inside...

[nudzo]

Some forces in the US don't want good relations with Russia. Thats all. Russians has many clever hackers so there's no need to send them to US, to get the secrets in many cases. And the second, nowadays spies use far more clever techniques as the officials talking about. It's as hollow as B quality hollywood movie.

Re:Conspiracy going from inside...

[techsoldaten]

You are giving the Russian government way too much credit.

The cultural differences that exist between the US and Russia make it extremely difficult for them to interpret any intelligence gained through covert espionage. They can gather information to understand the current situation, but they are very poor at predicting next steps. This is why every actual Russian spy case sounds so laughably stupid when we do learn the details.

It is important to remember there is a huge difference between the capabilities of a government entity and those of a bunch of hackers. Many people on Slashdot are aware of the relative sophistication of organized hacker rings and syndicates in former soviet countries. These groups are motivated by profit and actually take the time to do their homework. That level of knowledge and sophsitication does not make its way up into government, which is highly stratified and operates on a system of preferrment similar to the old days of the party. The people who make decisions about operations and how to conduct them are very likely to have held positions in soviet era espionage outfits and are exactly the type of people who would launch a campaign using such unsophisticated tactics. They know no better.

In short, don't think of Russia as a homogenous whole, think of it as a back-asswards society with the same problems with innovation faced by every other society in the world. Cultural barriers to the adoption of modern practices exist over there the same way they do over here, and it will take a generation for the government to catch up with the innovations of the 1990s.

And there will be many, many silly stories like this between now and then...

M

Grab the popcorn!

[Holammer]

Knowing Russians they'll probably arrest some American citizens working in Russia on made up bullshit charges to retaliate. Real spy or not, doesn't matter. They need to get even any way possible.

Russian spies

[oldpelican]

First, kudos to all the intel agencies who worked on this but let the FBI take the credit. Second, kudos to the FBI for taking sole credit in a business where taking credit can lead to personal problems of a fatal nature. ALL that has to be charged is anything that holds them, incommunicado, for an indefinite time. The ICE connection alone can hold them at least 27 months before a hearing which will be "in camera". Sometimes we do trade "tit for tat" but having no "tat" because we use other methods, these 10-11 or more can count on never going back to Mother Russia. And you're reading just the "tip of the iceberg".

They werent spies

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all a conspiracy theory.

The Russian Foreign Ministry?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the US actions were unfounded and pursued "unseemly" goals.

Why would the Foreign Ministry say anything of the sort? That seems almost an admission. Even if the Foreign Ministry only agrees that these individuals are Russian citizens using false identities, even that would be imprudent. Why say anything at all? Why not wait for it to blow over (we Americans are a bit fickle with our news), then negotiate their repatriation later? This doesn't sound like your grandfather's Russia...

- T

What do you blackmail people for, these days?

[Latent Heat]

One time CIA director Bobby Inman called a man into his office who had been "outed" in some fashion.

"I have your mother on the phone. I am ordering you to tell her who you are. Good. Now you cannot be blackmailed."

Polygraph

[cacba]

"Did you ever commit an act of espionage against the United States?"

Either, they answered yes and the interrogator thought it was a joke or ... they are double agents.

THEY SHOOT COMMIE SPIES DON'T THEY?

[Anonymous Coward]

To hell with the commie russians !! NUKE 'EM !! NUKE 'EM NOW !! Then we'll talk ARMS reduction, not a day sooner !!

Wrong move...

[emgarf]

They should have left these ineffective "spies" in place - now they may be replaced with competent ones.

Just a short message to the alleged...

[Anonymous Coward]

0021 0005 0019 0000 0028 0100 0031 0027 0000 0024

Enjoy!

Collateral reality distortion

[Mathinker]

If any of the details come out and are sufficiently interesting, I'll end up reading about it at Bruce Schneier's blog ---- but what I find interesting now is, for example, whether (Anna) Leddra Chapman's music career will be given a significant push forward just because people searching for info about the alleged spy will find her instead/in addition.

This kind of strange interaction is something which couldn't have happened, for example, when I was younger (yes, I am that old...).

In Soviet America

[Anonymous Coward]

The spies are the people going about their business trying to advance in their careers.

kdawson

[Strange Ranger]

+5 well done.

Fear-mongering

[Anonymous Coward]

The FBI has been 'monitoring' their activities for a decade? That seems a bit unreasonable, seeing as how they are 'spies' and a decade's worth of intel should be pretty significant. Why not stop them early on? I heard an interesting bit on this via the BBC news podcast today, and it was actually pretty enlightening. Sociologically speaking, there was one instance where they interviewed neighbors who claimed their only offense is that they had 'loud dogs in the backyard'. I understand hiding in plain sight and everything, not being 'too quiet', etc, but just based upon some of the things i've heard it sounds like a farse. This is made up. It's an attempt to strike fear in American people in order to promote the ideal 'be good, or we'll find you'. A similar approach was taken during the times square bombing plot. They create a guy to catch, and by doing so, creates a sense of trust in the American public for their government. Read between the lines, friends. You're all intelligent people, why not question the WHY? Russia quite frankly was appalled by such an obvious trick, a 'Cold War' scare tactic. So why publicize it? It's meant to be information for you to think about, that's why. Please take what i've said with a grain of salt, like everything else you read on the internet, but at least question what you hear.

tl;dr - faked.

Re:Fear-mongering

[Max_W]

These people were in the USA since 90s.

There is no animosity towards the USA in Russia. On the contrary, people in RF try to learn first hand how the modern US economy and political system work.

A lot of people in Russia learn English language, try to get an education in the USA, at least for their children. Maybe this curiosity went too far in this case. Indeed, using falsified passports does not look good.

But, I think that these people were not trying to harm the USA. At least, this is what I hope, because otherwise I would not approve these my compatriots' actions.

Learn from the leading world economy, yes, learn how in reality the political system works, yes, harm the American people, no.

Though, I realize that for American people this activity may seem disgusting, I do not fail to notice a bravery of these people. Knowing that some turncoat generals moved to the West and work for the western secret services, they still worked for the Russian government. Frankly, it seems rather unlikely to me.

Re:Fear-mongering

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the 'experts' interviewed who claimed to have worked in the office of 'illegals' or spies only speaks out about this because he was a double agent for the KGB/CIA/MI6 for years and years. They then provide his testimony as a credible source! Hmm, yes, a double-agent - i want to believe everything he says... :shakes head:

Granted, I dont know all the facts, but i'm not hopping on the 'Oh My God the Commies are back' bandwagon like they want me to.

"I have certain rules I live by. My first rule: I don't believe anything the government tells me." -George Carlin

Political prisoners?

[trendzetter]

Can it be that the government is hiding political prosecution by labeling them 'spies'? That is what some have suggested: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93758

Re:Political prisoners?

[Max_W]

I think it is rather a sort of a continuation of McCrystal's mutiny. The highest but elderly echelons of D.C. cannot get accustomed to new realities and rebel against their Chief in Command.

They cannot accept that one can have relations with other countries without violence and domination. And seeing some people of Russian origin having some money makes them jealous.

There have been 20 years in Russia of market economy. Of course there are rich people in Russia by now. And, by the way, the US government all the time pays to journalists in Russia all sorts of premiums and grants. Openly.

KFC

[sakdoctor]

Russia are trying to spy on the 11 Secret Herbs and Spices.

It's funny,lol

[hesaigo999ca]

You would think that someone would be smart enough to get the FBI to set them up as a mole,
to then go and infiltrate the Russians, and become a mole to be sent into the FBI,
with enough of these, the Russians could pay for the whole FBI payroll...
and we could pass them data that is not too important but important enough
to make it look like we are working......worth a try! lol

OH NO!!!

[warGod3]

Are you kidding me?
From TFA (Wired):

And it’s one of a slew of high-tech and time-tested methods that the deep-cover agents and their Russian handlers used to pass information — from private Wi-Fi networks to buried paper bags.

Private Wi-Fi networks? OH NO... we'll have to ban those immediately...

It IS systemic: your system encourages this

[Anonymous Coward]

It IS systemic: your system encourages this. It encourages "what money and power can I get from my job" and ignores the "what should I do for my fellow man". therefore the epic failures of the bribed CIA leaks IS a systemic problem: your capitalist system encourages such behaviour and it IS your system.

Talk about bad security

[pinkushun]

FTA:

There, they found a set of password-protected disks and a piece of paper, marked with “alt,” “control,” “e,” and a string of 27 characters.

With all the steganography and hidden messages, you'd think it prudent not to write passwords on little notes, and keep the along with your disks.

These are only the ones we know about

[DocSavage64109]

Really, for all we know, these are just decoy spies. Though, it's got to be difficult hiding spies in the age of inter-related databases and huge government powers.

Re: What sort of country is this?

[MRe_nl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_empire_(disambiguation) ; ).

poor saps

[Anonymous Coward]

While poor saps are paraded in front of TV cameras KGB in Moscow are taking out CIA double agents.