Windows Phone 7 Hits Technical Preview Milestone

suraj.sun writes "Microsoft's upcoming Windows Phone 7 mobile operating system has today reached its biggest milestone yet, with a technical preview announced placing the OS on the 'home stretch' to launch. 'We are certainly not done yet — but the craftsmen (and women) of our team have signed off that our software is now ready for the hands-on everyday use of a broad set of consumers around the world — and we're looking forward to their feedback in the coming weeks, so that we can finish the best Windows Phone release ever together,' Terry Myerson, Microsoft's Corporate Vice President of Windows Phone Engineering, wrote tonight." There's coverage around the net including CNet, NeoWin and Engadget.

Comments

Ah, let's just call it done

[Saint Stephen]

It's based on creaky old CE, it supports no features, and it has a silverlight-y shell with a couple of new spins on the same old workflow. Let's ship it!

Facebook will write an app for it and somebody will probably buy it.

Maybe this time it will sync with 64-bit Office. The current ActiveSync says "aw, just install 32-bit Office, you don't need 64-bit anyway!" (ITunes has no problems synching with 64-bit office, btw.)

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Monkeedude1212]

You can Synch with Office?

I thought it was just Outlook.

What happens when I synch excel on my phone?

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Saint Stephen]

No, it's just Outlook. (Files can synch.) You get a wierd error with 64-bit activesync with 64-bit office; it doesn't work!

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[SquarePixel]

Microsoft will be enforcing content restrictions on Windows Phone 7 applications, by preventing users from sideloading applications as they previously had done with Windows Mobile. This results in all applications having to pass through the Windows Phone Marketplace where content restrictions apply.[34][35] Users are free to sync whatever content they want to their phone or view any website from the web browser.

Microsoft said that applications containing pornography will be prevented from being installed on Windows Phone 7, as well as applications containing images that fit the definition of "sexually suggestive". Violence and all nudity will be censored from apps. Suggestions or depictions of prostitution, sexual fetishes, or basically anything that "a reasonable person would consider to be adult or borderline adult content" will be forbidden from Windows Phone 7 apps.

Microsoft elaborated that it would disallow apps containing "images that reveal nipples, genitals, buttocks, or pubic hair".

When will the US understand that sex is not bad, evil or something that should be banned from adults? Of course, the games with violence and killing will be allowed, but no, not such unharmful and natural thing like nudity or sex.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[dmgxmichael]

Microsoft ascended to supremacy because the PC was in a niche where IBM was irrelevant, and further was more important to a larger segment of the population than the segment that cared about IBM's dominance -- large computers and servers. IBM was never displaced from their market and Microsoft will never be displaced from the desktop. And now history is repeating itself. The iPhone and Android are in a niche where Microsoft, like IBM before it, is irrelevant. And honestly I haven't seen an effort to get into a market this feeble since since Atari released the Jaguar.

This is ultimately a good thing. Microsoft can only seem to do interoperability when they don't have a monopoly. Portable devices will destroy IE's ability to ever set the tone for the web again. Considering the damage they have done to the progress of the web their fall is something to celebrate.

And yes, scads of IE dependent corp machines will remain for years to come. The web will move on. Truth be known the inability of IE 6 to deal with highly interactive sites will be seen as a benefit by CEO's since employees won't be "playing" on the clock. That's fine though - the rest of us can move on.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Mongoose Disciple]

When will the US understand that sex is not bad, evil or something that should be banned from adults?

I figure it'll be about a fortyear after we adopt the metric system.

Of course, since using kilometers is proven to turn you socialist, who knows when that will be?

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Anonymous Coward]

When will SquarePixel learn how the reply option works as to not be off topic with the existing thread?

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Crudely_Indecent]

Parent failed to attribute Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_Marketplace#Content_Restrictions )

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Kepesk]

Heheh. I can't wait to see this one become a flop too. Microsoft really needs to work on their ability to put out useful stuff.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[mark72005]

I hated Windows Mobile more than I've hated any version of Windows OSs.

Words cannot describe what an absolute pile of garbage that was.

I would rather have tent stakes driven through my eyeballs than spend money on a Windows OS for mobile.

I would rather sit on a cactus doused in sulfuric acid than use Windows Mobile.

I would rather watch The Phantom Menace on repeat for a month while covered in bees and spiders.

I would rather have been given a writing credit for Battlefield Earth.

I would rather be in a relationship with Mel Gibson than use Windows Mobile.

Worst of all, I think I'd rather sign a lifetime contract to use a Kin.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[dmgxmichael]

dream on - ie will be around on most machines for years to come, and for the simple reason that people like it.

the point here is that html is for text and pics - please leave the animation and video to flash. that's the way it is and that's the way it will stay.

keep your css and html5 crap to yourself thankyou very much. no one needs or wants it that stuff except cocksuckers like you.

How intelligent of you AC. Grouse all you want, but HTML 5 and CSS 3 are here to stay - IE 9 will be supporting them I for one am happy to see Microsoft finally starting to push back and innovate again. IE 9's use of the GPU especially for canvas rendering is impressive. But let's not kid ourselves - there would be no development on IE if Microsoft wasn't losing market share to competitors at an alarming rate.

IE 6 is not a bad browser in and of itself. But it overstayed its welcome. Microsoft won the browser war and then chose not to continue development. If IE 7 had followed in '02 or '03 then IE as a brand wouldn't be so tarnished. Instead Microsoft sat on their hands. The most comical part though is Microsoft let IE 6 and it's attendant corporate intranets get so much inertia that the browser has now cost them tens of millions of dollars in lost contracts as corporations actively resist upgrades to OS'es that don't support IE 6. I doubt they'll make this mistake again.

You can be immature and call people names like a kid out of junior high school all you want, but technology continues to push onward. Microsoft can join in this or be left behind. You have the same choice.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[not already in use]

It's based on creaky old CE

No, it's not. It's a completely new kernel, first seen in the Zune HD.

and it has a silverlight-y shell...

Actually, its WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) which is the underlying technology behind Silverlight. I certainly don't see this as a bad thing though. WPF is good technology.

...with a couple of new spins on the same old workflow

WTF are you talking about? It looks completely different from any workflow I've seen. I'm certainly not sold on it by any means, but it is definitely a bit radical and different.

Something tells me you don't actually know a thing about WP7. You just spout off some misinformation and the rest of slashdot will join the ignorant circle jerk.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft products not working gives an error?

They must have changed their policy...

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Com2Kid]

It's based on creaky old CE

And Android is based on "creaky old Linux".

Anything else stupid you want to say?

WP7 is based on CE7, a continuation of CE6 which was pretty much a complete rewrite of CE. CE6 and 7 are both incredibly powerful embedded OSs with none of the limitations that previous CE versions had.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Saint Stephen]

CE6 kernel reved to V7. WM was CE5.2. Yes, it's a new Kernel. Yes, it's also creaky old CE.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Saint Stephen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune_HD

Windows CE 6.0

It's not a complete rewrite of CE. Yes, it make major kernel changes (private address space, greater # of processes, more memory allowed). It's not a complete rewrite of CE. It's mostly just CE.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[not already in use]

It's a brand spanking new kernel version. Just because it has "CE" at the end of it does not indicate it contains any cruft from previous versions.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[mark72005]

It's based on creaky old CE

And Android is based on "creaky old Linux".

Anything else stupid you want to say?

Well, Linux didn't suck in the first place.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[shutdown -p now]

It's a brand spanking new kernel version.

And your reference for that is?..

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[shutdown -p now]

Actually, its WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) which is the underlying technology behind Silverlight.

WPF is not "the underlying technology behind Silverlight". It's the desktop UI framework, and is separate. Yes, it does share a lot of concepts with Silverlight (e.g. XAML, visual tree etc), and it does share some code, but neither is built on top of the other. Both have features not available in the other thing, and, in general, they're not really compatible - a single codebase cannot target both Silverlight and WPF, unless it is very trivial.

Yes, it's somewhat confusing. It also doesn't help that Silverlight was at some point called WPF/E ("WPF everywhere") during its development and before release.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Tawnos]

It's based neither on "creaky old CE" nor "completely new kernel". It's based on Windows CE 6.x+

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[not already in use]

CE 6.0 features a completely redesigned kernel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_CE_6.0

Also made evident by the fact that it is in no way backward compatible with older versions, with no attempts to make it backward compatible.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[RocketRabbit]

"CE6 and 7 are both incredibly powerful"

I'm sorry, but you are full of it.

They are both cut down and neutered.

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[labnet]

AND ... microsoft has not provided support for the currently released Win CE 6.0 is VS 2010. wtf!? dropping all your industrial embedded customers like that??

Re:Ah, let's just call it done

[Anonymous Coward]

When will the US understand that sex is not bad, evil or something that should be banned from adults? Of course, the games with violence and killing will be allowed, but no, not such unharmful and natural thing like nudity or sex.

Look, dude, it's very simple.

You like ice cream. Everyone secretly loves ice cream and would have ice cream any part of the day.

But even when you love it, there are situations and places where you don't want ice cream. You don't want ice cream on your chicken meal, or in your beer.

You definitely don't want ice cream on your clothes and your keyboard, and you don't want ice cream all over your phone.

Who cares.

[Anonymous Coward]

Some OS that no phones care about hits a milestone that no-one was waiting for.

Yaawwwnnn.

[1shooter]

Wake me when it's finished. Then I'll take a look and see how it stacks up against the competition.

Nice

[TrisexualPuppy]

I foresee that this will be like Vista, Win7, or Zune. It's all hyped up by Microsoft's marketing department where advertising money is no object, and a few people buy it, and whammo! Kludgy, weird user interface that is harder to use than what they had out ten years ago (e.g. Win CE).

Re:Nice

[DWMorse]

I disagree that Win 7 is ALL hype, though it was fun to attend the conference for a half-hour, get free donuts, and a copy of Win 7 Ultimate, and a shirt. There's substance to it, regardless of whether or not it's on par with [insert favorite distro here.]

Last I heard, Phone 7 didn't even have copy-paste. Is that still true?

Re:Nice

[hedwards]

To be fair, the Zune could've been a success had MS not screwed it up. The hardware was actually quite good and the few people I know that owned them really liked them.

Re:Nice

[Darkness404]

The Zune could have been a success if MS hadn't decided to basically be late to the iPod revolution. I don't think there is a single person who looks at the Zune and doesn't see it just as an MS branded iPod in poo colors. Yes, the Zune's hardware was nice, but the average person sees it as a crappy rip-off of an Apple product, not to mention MS has tried to do things similar to the Zune with "Plays For Sure" except for the fact that the Zune can't even play that content.

The Zune was dead on arrival, had it come before the iPod and done everything it would have been a modest success, but how can you look at the Zune and -not- see that this is just an MS branded iPod?

Re:Nice

[GF678]

Well it would have been nice if Microsoft bothered to sell the Zune overseas, such as here in Australia. But they didn't. Why they didn't is an exercise left up to those who give a shit. Not my problem if Microsoft didn't think seriously enough about their product to warrant worldwide competition with the iPod.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Statement from Redmond..

"Windows Phone 7 Series will not initially offer copy and paste; instead, we try to solve the most common uses for copy and paste via single-tap action. For example, people often want to take an address and view it on a map, highlight a term in the browser and do a search or copy a phone number to make a call. Instead of the user manually doing a copy and paste in these scenarios, we recognize those situations automatically and make them happen with just one touch. In our early testing people have been pleased with this approach, but we're always listening to feedback and will continue to improve our feature set over time based on what we hear."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/19/microsoft-windows-phone-7-series-will-not-initially-offer-copy/

Re:Nice

[dmgxmichael]

Inertia is a powerful thing though. A system must be a LOT better to displace an established competitor. Linux fans should know this well, their OS is technically superior to Windows in pretty much every way, but Windows has the established customer base. Once systems are in place they tend to stay in place.

That's why getting into the phone market is so important to Microsoft. If they can't break in soon they never will. It may already be too late.

Re:Nice

[ocularsinister]

How is this insightful? Its a tautology! Of course it wouldn't have been a failure if Microsoft hadn't screwed up! *rolls eyes*

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my ZuneHD. The Zune pass is great.

It would be better on a 3G device though... It sucks that when I hear a song I have to try and remember what it is until I can get wifi again. But them's the breaks.

Re:Nice

[ashridah]

It won't, on launch, but it'll probably catch up with one of the first few 6-month mandatory updates (the carrier can't hinder that process either, it's in the contract they have with MS), i'd imagine.

That said, i can count on one hand the number of times i've used copy&paste on my old g1. I think i did it to copy content from failed SMSs that bounced due to network congestion/no signal, and that's about it, so i find it hard to get worked up over that. Perhaps i wrote more on my phone (i tend to browse content, and issue shorter messages, c&p just doesn't seem as necessary yet), which is likely if i had access to word.

Re:Nice

[UnknowingFool]

The Zune wasn't a bad player, but MS was going into a very crowded market and there wasn't much to distinguish it from all the other players including the market leader, iPod. Squiting would have been nice it hadn't been so crippled.

In my opinion, MS messed up badly on the marketing. They wanted it to be cool and obscure and marketed it that way. Unfortunately, that's the wrong way to get people to use your new product in a crowded field. Watching the TV commercials, the general public would have no clue what a "Zune" actually did, who made it, or even that the commercial was about a music player. It could have been a commercial about a new energy drink and nobody would have known the difference.

Contrast that with the first iPhone commercials. Each of them highlighted a feature: Google maps, web browsing, etc. It also showed that it was a cell phone. And it was made by Apple for the AT&T network. More importantly, each commercial was a functional demo showing the new touch interface and how to use this new phone.

The other thing was MS was always behind Apple and chasing the wrong targets. They were always going against where Apple was last year. With the Zune HD, MS finally matched the iPod Touch feature wise. But Apple spent years making the iPod Touch an app platform and not just a music player. The Zune unfortunately is nothing more than a music player with WiFi. MS hasn't spent time and effort in making the interface to be a platform and they have no developers for it so they are years behind.

Add to that MS wiped out any advantage they had by not leveraging their existing customer base or products. The Zune format wasn't compatible with PlaysForSure or their former partners so all their existing customers might not be interested. They insisted on creating a new buggy application insteading of using WMP, etc.

Re:Nice

[mcgrew]

A system must be a LOT better to displace an established competitor. Linux fans should know this well, their OS is technically superior to Windows in pretty much every way, but Windows has the established customer base.

Windows' dominance comes from the fact that damned near every PC sold has it preinstalled. Were all PCs shipped with Linux preinstalled, it would be dominant and MS would be dying.

Re:Nice

[Mongoose Disciple]

Windows' dominance comes from the fact that damned near every PC sold has it preinstalled. Were all PCs shipped with Linux preinstalled, it would be dominant and MS would be dying.

That's technically true and yet misses the point completely.

Windows, whether you think it merits it or not or was simply coasting on application offerings / inertia, was what people mostly wanted. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be on damned near every PC. Microsoft would have had zero power to strongarm OEMs if they didn't have a product that was in such high demand, most consumers didn't consider there to actually be an alternative.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

simple because it is better than any of the ipods.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I still own one (Zune), and I still use it daily. There's nothing wrong with it.

Re:Nice

[MemoryDragon]

Heck, Microsoft never even sold it outside of the USA.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

That said, i can count on one hand the number of times i've used copy&paste on my old g1. I think i did it to copy content from failed SMSs that bounced due to network congestion/no signal, and that's about it, so i find it hard to get worked up over that. Perhaps i wrote more on my phone (i tend to browse content, and issue shorter messages, c&p just doesn't seem as necessary yet), which is likely if i had access to word.

I routinely use it on the Android to (re)enter my 64-character random (+symbols) wifi key. It would take 5 minutes to enter manually.

Re:Nice

[ashridah]

The phone can't just remember the wifi key? seems like a rather essential feature to me.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

It does. But I wipe the phone to install custom ROMs about once a month. I don't trust 'Nandroid' backups (of internal NAND memory) to not screw up the install process.

Re:Nice

[ashridah]

Ah, so you've got a completely normal consumer scenario down pat, then :)

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

" I don't think there is a single person who looks at the Zune and doesn't see it just as an MS branded iPod in poo colors."

Yea, well as one of the the 10's of thousands of folks with a zune pass that lets me happily transfer or stream any of more than 5 million tracks anywhere that I have wifi, or just keep the ones I choose on my zune without being connected for a month at a time, (while also getting 10, DRM FREE, 300+ Kbps/sec MP3s to keep each month), I think you are an idiot.

Jorgie

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux fans should know this well, their OS is technically superior to Windows in pretty much every way ...

Except usability - the most important technical customer requirement.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't mean that. Arguably, copy&paste can be eliminated entirely with no consequences. The other day, I noticed a plain-text message in Android's Calendar application. The message contained the name of an event at a local city. It was automatically turned into a link reference to Google Maps; clicking it displayed all the nearest matching events in under 2 seconds.

It won't yet replace copy/pasting, but it likely will in the future, with some more work. Eventually, you will probably be able to select an area of text and automatically send it to some text handler application (browser, SMS, etc.).

And furthermore, the situation I described (entering a wifi password) could probably be automated by some API call over ADB from the PC. I'm just too lazy to discover alternate methods at this time.

My question is...

[Mongoose Disciple]

Is this a release that, purely on quality/merit (let's not talk about mindshare or openness -- presumably both are lost causes), is at all competitive with the alternatives?

In a sense it's amazing to me, given how much longer Microsoft's been trying to get something done in the Mobile arena, that they have been completely unable to gain any traction so far. Were Windows CE etc. trying too hard to be compatible with Desktop Windows? I don't know, but it's baffling that a company with so much of a headstart over would now be its chief competitors managed so little.

It's hard to point to openness as the reason with Apple's walled garden as a ready counterpoint, but what did go wrong?

Re:My question is...

[hedwards]

I had a Win CE device, and the problem was that the Desktop paradigm doesn't really translate very well to mobile devices. Pushing it to the netbooks is a bit of a stretch, but by the time you get to PDAs and mobile phones it completely breaks down. The iPhone and Android UIs work a lot better for screens that size, I think that they might even translate up to around about the netbook range without a whole lot of trouble, but then again trying to go beyond that point would likely cause trouble in that they're meant for small devices.

Re:My question is...

[iniquitous]

From a technical perspective, Microsoft's task is fairly monumental. Windows CE runs on a broad spectrum of devices under a broad spectrum of roles. iOS, Android, etc are specifically created for one market: smart phones (and in the case of iOS, very tightly controlled hardware within that market). In contrast, Microsoft wants Windows CE to be a foundation platform for a wide variety of mobile markets.

From a business perspective, who knows whether this approach is truly smart or unwise. It's clear, however, that the general public perceives that Microsoft is going to be very late and potentially very under-featured in the consumer smart phone market when Windows Phone 7 releases.

Re:My question is...

[arkane1234]

Pushing it to the netbooks is a bit of a stretch,

Funny, last I booted I swore my netbook was a computer and not a phone.
Granted, it's not a Spore-capable system, but it's still a desktop just like most were when XP came out.
Unless you're talking about screen real estate, which then you're just getting dick-size into the picture. Especially since if you're desk based temporarily, you can VGA cable it to a monitor.

Re:My question is...

[gad_zuki!]

>It's hard to point to openness as the reason with Apple's walled garden as a ready counterpoint, but what did go wrong?

This has nothing to do with openness and has everything to do with MS giving up on improving their products. The WinMobile line, at the time, was pretty hot stuff. You could install whatever program you wanted and there was no shortage of apps. I remember owning a Treo on Sprin't EVDO network and calling Russia on Skype on EVDO. I'm not sure what phone lets me do that today. iPhone has AT&T imposed limitations on VOIP and there's no official Skype client for Android.

Windows Mobile got the same treatment IE6 got. MS felt it was good enough and its main competitors like Palm and Blackberry were doing a worse job than them somehow. It wasn't until the iphone came out that MS was forced to up its game, but it was a little too late. They tried to bank on WinMo 6.1/6.5 but it just had too many legacy limitations. Or at least polish 6.5 to the point where people would buy it while 7 was being developed, but competing products like the Pre, Droids, and iPhones were just much better. The 7 rewrite is turning into a Vista fiasco that's just taking too long and no one wants to wait, especially with native ActiveSync on iPhone and Android.

In other words Android/iPhone are like Firefox to MS's IE. MS can't sit on products in competitive markets. Someone will always eat their lunch.

Re:My question is...

[Darkness404]

The UIs might work better, but you can get a whole lot more done with a real OS than a dumbed-down one. Yes, Android is nice, yes I run it on my phone but I wouldn't ever think of putting it on something bigger than a phone because then you can't really -do- anything with it. Yes, Android has a lot of great applications, but my productivity is going to be a lot higher being able to use real programs than Android ones. For example, Open Office, I'm not going to get that on Android because there would be too much to rewrite, I'm not going to get a really, really great browser on Android that supports all the features Firefox does, etc.

I used my 7 inch EEE with Xubuntu on it for my primary laptop for about half a year, the biggest problem wasn't the software I had running it, but rather simply limitations of the hardware (small keyboard, small screen, slow CPU, not much RAM) and putting Android, iOS, Windows Phone 7, etc. on it wouldn't have made it any better.

Re:My question is...

[CODiNE]

It's hard to point to openness as the reason with Apple's walled garden as a ready counterpoint, but what did go wrong?

One part may be what I recently noticed with my wife and her iPad. You see she immediately wanted one instead of a laptop, and she's immensely more satisfied with it than her previous (more powerful) laptop. Here's one reason why iOS is successful.

She can install apps on her own. Previously I'd tried to train her on this... you find the download link on the website (not always easy). You go to the downloads folder (she forgets where it is). You locate the file you just downloaded (forgot what it's name was, or the name doesn't match the app). Double-click it to get the disk image open (the what?) then either drag and drop the app on the Applications folder OR run the Installer if it's set up that way (huh?)

Now she just goes to the store with one tap. Hits the little search button, types draw or whatever... checks out the apps, and clicks Install. It's done.

I believe the mobile app stores such as Apple's and the Android store (there is one on the phone right?) significantly lower the barrier of entry to trying out new apps on the device. For us downloading and installing are simple as can be, but to a non-techie it's just a fog of gibberish and confusing steps. Most people don't install ANY new apps on their computers, it takes a "power user" to download and install Google Earth. You hear people like that say "I hate computers" but really it's the basic file system management and app installation process they can't grok.

So yes, openness and the "walled garden" is a significant part of Apple and Google's success. It's not so much a "cool factor" as it is a eureka! moment to people when they too can try new things on their device. The model of downloading an app on the computer, plugging in a phone and then using some sort of installer process is a bit overwhelming for the majority of people. Simplifying the phones has empowered the common user.

Re:My question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone wants to know why CE didnt gain traction? Ask what it costs. It is not an insignificant cost, PER phone. There is a reason there are dozens of *good* android phones on the horizon.

iPhone nailed the reason people want smart phones. They want to fiddle with something while they are standing around. MS never got that. They built a supper locked down platform that sucked to get any apps onto. So you ended up with a glorified personal organizer and hopefully someone compiled some app for your particular CE flavor (ie almost never). Then when you did manage to get some sort of app running each one took a bit of fiddling to install. Oh and dont reset your phone if you like to keep all of your apps. Never mind the crap ActiveSync was.

So they were finicky, pricey, and little better than electronic personal organizers. Yeah no wonder many people gave them a skip.

Once MS figures it out. Then they will start coming out with an OS for phones worth a damn. So far it doesnt look like they will.

Re:My question is...

[revlayle]

My wife and the iPad had the same experience - while she is certainly more tech oriented, she hate messing with it, when a click on a user-friendly app store lets her try a large variation of applications available with prices obviously displayed. I, personally, have no use for the iPad, but I see why people like it so much and why they'd rather have one over a netbook.

Re:My question is...

[mcgrew]

I had a Win CE

I had a WinCE OnCE too. Why does Microsoft insist on giving its products names like that? WinCE, WiMP, Ex-Pee... did the guy in the marketing department that thinks up names get a pay cut and is now getting his revenge? If I was Balmer I'd fire the dumbass!

Re:My question is...

[lowrydr310]

For us downloading and installing are simple as can be, but to a non-techie it's just a fog of gibberish and confusing steps

For me, a techie, I think the App Store and Android Marketplace make downloading a fog of gibberish and confusing steps. All I can think about is the underlying file structure of the downloaded content, and paranoia of malware (at least Apple sort of has a leg up on Android, requiring approval of apps prior to making them available to the masses, but on the other hand Android is more open and will give me some access to the filesystem), but that's the problem with being a techie. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is. I really wish I didn't think this way.

Now I just ordered an Android phone a few days ago (expecting delivery tomorrow!!!) and I'm really interested in learning the platform. What worries me is that I can't just be content using things the way they are - I need to know HOW everything works. It's a sickness.

Re:My question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Think that was the point, it didn't translate to touch devices (capacitive anyway). 6.5 made bigger icons and was a half arse attempt to make it work. 7 was supposed to fix all of it, make it a touch screen OS, problem is, MS is late as always, iPhone and Android have already got a foothold (heck even palm-web has been around longer) only thing good is all the old win mobile software we can reuse. If you are one of the people who hasn't gotten a new phone instead of waiting on 7...

Re:My question is...

[shutdown -p now]

So yes, openness and the "walled garden" is a significant part of Apple and Google's success.

Android's store is not quite a "walled garden". For the most part, anything goes there.

Then again, the usage scenario that you've described does not need a "walled garden", either. It just needs an easy-to-use centralized software repository.

Re:My question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why you say Windows Mobile is "locked down". OK, it may have cost a significant amount for the OEM, but it costs NOTHING to develop for the platform. Anybody with a copy of the free version of visual studio can write an app. There is no encryption or app-signing anything, all of the apps are unsigned .cab files. There is plenty of freeware (or even commercial software) available from an unlimited number of sources. Ever visit xda-developers.com ?

Windows Mobile isn't failing because of a lack of a community developing for it and trying to improve it. It's failing because Microsoft let the underlying OS stagnate into a creaky, bloated, kludgy pile of shit that was designed for 10-year-old devices and is not suitable for the devices it is running on today. Take, for example, the HTC HD2 (the flagship WM6.5 device). It has 512MB of physical RAM, but it is impossible to actually use all of this RAM because the constraints of the underlying Windows CE5. So you will get "out of memory" errors even though the system reports that you have 230MB free.

And now that MS is actually trying to do something to catch up to their competitors, they turn their back on the community that kept their platform alive all these years.

MS can die in a fucking fire. I certainly won't be buying any of their new handsets. Android is the future.

Never a head start

[SuperKendall]

I don't know, but it's baffling that a company with so much of a headstart over would now be its chief competitors managed so little.

The thing is, they never had a head start at all - because they were always going down a different path. It's not so much compatibility with Desktop WIndows, as it was reliance on a stylus and a physical keyboard.

Android and iOS were built from the ground up to make use of touch. Neither iOS or Android (to some extent) are reliant even on a physical keyboard, though one can be present... for small mobile devices that simply is a better path, and one Microsoft never chose to explore.

So it's not so much Desktop compatibility, as it is trying to simply move the existing UI conventions to mobile (unless that is what you meant by compatibility).

Re:Never a head start

[Mongoose Disciple]

So it's not so much Desktop compatibility, as it is trying to simply move the existing UI conventions to mobile (unless that is what you meant by compatibility).

It wasn't, but that's a really interesting observation.

I kind of hate touchscreens (especially on something like an mp3 player -- buttons I can operate without looking at decreases my chance of dying while driving or running) but I have to agree that on something like today's incarnation of a smartphone, there isn't any other form of UI that's even competitive in terms of its appropriateness, and it makes sense that whoever "gets" that first is really who has the headstart.

Re:Never a head start

[samkass]

Android and iOS were built from the ground up to make use of touch.

Every prototype of Android device looked like a Blackberry until the iPhone came out. At that point Android bolted on their multi-touch look and feel... there's no "ground up" design relating to touch in either the iPhone or Android. The core OS just handles files, memory, network, power, processes, etc. Apple could replace UIKit eventing with some keyboard/stylus-based input API and replace a small fraction of iOS.

To get it right takes a lot more than the touch UI being right. It takes an entire infrastructure to make the device disappear and become the task. Despite Microsoft's size, they've never been an infrastructure company so it'll be a challenge.

Re:Never a head start

[GooberToo]

Can you point me at some pictures? Every android prototype I've seen looked like an iPhone rival (mytouch 3g basically). Considering Android, from the get go, has been looking to directly compete with Apple, frankly, I'm not sure that prototypes really have anything to do with anything.

You need to keep in mind, especially during early development, its not uncommon to develop on easily obtainable, low cost hardware simply because actual production units are not available, available in low yields, or too cost prohibitive to make widely available to developers right out the gate. In other words, its not uncommon or even unreasonable for development prototypes to have absolutely no form factor in common with production hardware. In fact, they are often even missing core hardware - GPS or phone/dsp chips. None of that means it has any influence on its true market goals or direction.

Re:Never a head start

[tayhimself]

Not sure why you couldn't google it, but none of the google images show devices looking anything like iPhones. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Android+prototypes

Re:Never a head start

[samkass]

Can you point me at some pictures? Every android prototype I've seen looked like an iPhone rival (mytouch 3g basically).

Considering Google had been making Android prototypes since before the original iPhone was ever released to the public, I'll ask you the same question... can you find any pictures of any Android prototypes that look like the iPhone but pre-date its unveiling?

I can't.

If I go to Google Images and google for Android Prototypes, I get lots of things that look like a Blackberry and nothing that even remotely resembles an iPhone... until the iPhone is released. Then about 6 months later the Android prototypes start looking (surprise!) like an iPhone.

Re:Never a head start

[revlayle]

Also, I believe Android took a few production versions before there was any multi-touch. The hardware supported it, but it wasn't until HTC Sense UI for Android came out that any form real multi-touch came into play and even that sucked initially (I know it sucked on the HTC Hero immensely). 2.1+ is better these days at least... but most of the Android UI core is still very single-touch oriented.

Re:Never a head start

[recoiledsnake]

Maybe Android and iPhone copied the form factor from Windows phones? http://www.mobiletechreview.com/phones/Cingular-8525.htm There are plenty of those that shipped a year before the iPhone was even announced.

Everyone needs to stop with the revisionist history.

Re:Never a head start

[samkass]

Maybe Android and iPhone copied the form factor from Windows phones? http://www.mobiletechreview.com/phones/Cingular-8525.htm

Um, that doesn't look much like an iPhone. Much less so than any Android phone. The screen is bigger than the blackberry and the hardware keyboard is missing, but other than that its interaction patterns seem utterly different. I'm not saying that the iPhone doesn't build on some previously developed concepts, but there's a pretty distinct break between pre-iPhone smartphone design and post-iPhone smartphone design.

Re:Never a head start

[Skuld-Chan]

Thats because they were made by TI:

http://www.crn.com/hardware/206504527;jsessionid=JH3QI5R0XZVC5QE1GHRSKHWATMY32JVN?pgno=2 - this was a device built to develop Android on OMAP cpu's. It was never even intended to resemble a shipping product.

The first Official Google/HTC dev phones shipped to the public like the ADP1 and ADP2 were made by HTC - and was a slider that can be totally operated by touch - so I dunno - Android 1.0 certainly seemed more touch friendly than WinCE ever has been.

That's one of the coolest things about Android though - the OS is really designed from the ground up to be compatible with whatever input metaphor you care to design - whether is a blackberry like device, mouse/keyboard, touch, voice command or stylus it has support for it.

Cool - Does It...

[filesiteguy]

...run Linux? :)

Did a bit of research already....

[HerculesMO]

And to develop apps in WinMo7 is ridiculously easy. I think that's what will help the platform move along.

Of course, if they don't fix up and finish some of the features that Engadget and other sites are pointing out, they will be DOA.

I'm going to buy an Android phone next week and if WinMo7 shapes up well, then I'll probably swap to that. With the ability for devs to port their games from XNA into the phone pretty easily, for new apps to be written quickly, and a standardization of UI and hardware requirements (including buttons and layout), it has an edge on Android in some areas. Of course, the little features that people love in Android or iOS are what they have to match in order to make it.

Time will tell.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[it0]

And to develop apps in WinMo7 is ridiculously easy. I think that's what will help the platform move along.

So show me!

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[uprise78]

Easy, yes. But you're stuck in Silverlight (unless making a game)! What a pile of shit. It has already proven even with Microsoft's massive Silverlight push that it cant even beat the equally shitty Flash. Now they are forcing Silverlight into the mobile space? I guess they figured it will never gain traction on the desktop so why not force people to use it on mobile and maybe they will then decide to use it on the desktop... Maybe the ploy will work. Hopefully it wont. The last thing we need is shitty "developers" hacking together shitty mobile apps then releasing them as desktop apps and web apps. *shudders*

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[Anonymous Coward]

XNA is not DirectX. Not C++. Not OpenGL.

Not many XNA games out there when comparing it to directX and OpenGL.

So, the porting of games is not as easy as you think.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[revlayle]

Silverlight is just a fancy term for a mobile version of .NET these days (well, that is my take on it) - it will probably replace the compact framework ultimately (as that was for CE devices in the past). Comparing Flash and Silverlight is a bit odd as, at first glance, look like rich media platforms for the web - however, Silverlight has a fairly robust development framework behind it already and I am very sure that the WP7 OS and the requirements to have it on a phone will make it run more than adequately. So basically, it is just a variation of the .NET framework... which was pretty much a no-brainer.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[Mongoose Disciple]

Silverlight is just a fancy term for a mobile version of .NET these days (well, that is my take on it)

Close -- it's essentially a subset. (At least, that's my take on it, and I also think you're probably right that at some point it essentially replaces the compact framework.)

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[revlayle]

That is correct, as the Compact Framework was a subset also. Silverlight is more media focused than CE, I think. I haven't used either that much (even though I do a lot of .NET dev in general, I am more focused on web apps and services).

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[uprise78]

Silverlight is just a fancy term for a mobile version of .NET these days (well, that is my take on it)

That is partially correct. The big thing about Silverlight that is different is that you are forced to use WPF and XAML for your GUI. Painful to say the least.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[revlayle]

Yeah, I know WPF/XAML is flexible, but it is a real chore to develop in. Maybe VS2008 IDE was not up to snuff for it. Not sure if VS2010 is much better for WPF apps.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[uprise78]

VS2010 is a little bit better. Blend 3 is a little bit better too. Honestly, neither are actually good yet. VS2010's editor is now written in XAML/WPF which makes for some interesting white outs. I have beast of a computer with 12 Gigs of RAM running 64bit Win7 and the white outs are unavoidable. I think we still need more powerful computers if we are going to use XAML/WPF for our GUIs.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I know WPF/XAML is flexible, but it is a real chore to develop in. Maybe VS2008 IDE was not up to snuff for it. Not sure if VS2010 is much better for WPF apps.

VS is a coder took. If you want to design UI using XAML, use the Expression line of products.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[shutdown -p now]

Yeah, I know WPF/XAML is flexible, but it is a real chore to develop in. Maybe VS2008 IDE was not up to snuff for it. Not sure if VS2010 is much better for WPF apps.

It's better, but my personal take at it is that XAML is like HTML (and any other markup language) - if you want to do a good job with it, you have to code the markup by hand in the text editor.

Re:Did a bit of research already....

[ashridah]

And for the more complex data-binding scenarios, this is pretty much the best approach to getting it done quickly anyway. you quickly drag/drop the ui, set it up so that it shrinks/expands the right way, and then move on to doing the plumbing using the code view of the xaml. I spend more time hooking up esoteric databinding scenarios than I do fiddling with the UI (although i do enjoy using blend for the basic design aspects, i just don't need the storyboarding it provides when working on WPF)

Sex Everywhere Already

[SuperKendall]

When will the US understand that sex is not bad, evil or something that should be banned from adults?

When will Slashdot users understand that not everyone should be required to sell sex if they do not wish to?

Anyone can get porn onto mobile devices via web applications. If you look around you'll find that the porn industry seems to have figured out how to sell sex over web interfaces quite well to date.

It's not a ban, it's just a choice not to sell it through a corporate channel with a brand to maintain.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[SquarePixel]

it's just a choice not to sell it through a corporate channel with a brand to maintain.

And that is the exact problem. US people, especially religious ones think there's some problem with nudity. This usually tends to be the older ones, most in their 20's don't have this problem. What exactly is it that makes nudity so bad?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked at yourself in a mirror lately?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[arkane1234]

This usually tends to be the older ones, most in their 20's don't have this problem.
So what started off with someone out of the blue trying to pinpoint Americans not liking sex, all the way to people over 20's being the older ones who don't like sex.

I'd first start by saying don't generalize, and realize that what you may have seen is a small minority of the world. Sex and sexually explicit content is sold daily in America, in and out of the mainstream within America.

That being said, who wants a cock flapping around in a picture that your child will be watching on tv?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Mongoose Disciple]

Pornography is not created as "art". Its sole purpose is for people to look at it and then self-abuse themselves into a climax. That is not sex. Sex requires two people.

Because multiple people never watch pornography together, right?

It's fine that you prefer to have a puritanical worldview, but let's not pretend it's held by everyone or in some way rationally based.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[SquarePixel]

Its sole purpose is for people to look at it and then self-abuse themselves into a climax.

Self-abuse? Why be so serious about having a little bit of fun with yourself? You only life once and you might just as well enjoy some beautiful ladies (or men, if you're a woman) and do what obviously is fun and feels good.

You know, women do it too. What about phone sex? That's two people, but you just do it to pleasure yourself and not to have babies. Would you call that self-abuse too?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[MrHanky]

Correct. Except, of course, when normal channels for distributing content (i.e. Flash) also are banned.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[xouumalperxe]

That being said, who wants a cock flapping around in a picture that your child will be watching on tv?

That's the point though, isn't it? When you say it like that, you're implying there's an intrinsic problem with kids and nudity on TV. I wouldn't have much of an issue with kids watching Life of Brian, though -- it's all about the portrayal.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[mcgrew]

It's not a ban, it's just a choice not to sell it through a corporate channel with a brand to maintain.

Quote the GP:

Microsoft said that applications containing pornography will be prevented from being installed on Windows Phone 7, as well as applications containing images that fit the definition of "sexually suggestive". Violence and all nudity will be censored from apps. Suggestions or depictions of prostitution, sexual fetishes, or basically anything that "a reasonable person would consider to be adult or borderline adult content" will be forbidden from Windows Phone 7 apps.

Yes, it's Microsoft's choice to shoot themselves in the foot if they wish. I, for one, will NOT buy a phone that limits MY choices. If I want porn on my phone, I'll put porn on my phone, and nobody that sells a phone with built in censorship will sell one to me; they're shit out of luck.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Anonymous Coward]

self-abuse

There is the problem.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Its sole purpose is for people to look at it and then self-abuse themselves into a climax.

Abuse? I think you're doing it wrong.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[misexistentialist]

Sadly few religions actual promote nudity and sex. Hinduism was on the right track, but they also seem to have taken the wrong track. What we are left with is "modesty" and "abstinence"--and pornography--that are indeed rather pathological.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[ubermiester]

What exactly is it that makes nudity so bad?

It's not that nudity is so bad, it's what happens when kids are exposed to porn that people are concerned with. Kids have raging hormones that operate whether they are prepared for the consequences or not. And by consequences i dont mean teen pregnancy (kids who are getting some at that age are probably not downloading porn apps on their phones). The problem is that porn presents sexuality in its most mechanical form. No love, no personal relationship, just rubbing. Women are presented as easy and submissive. They do what they are told, and don't seem to need anything more than a man in the room to be ready and willing to do whatever the man wants. Young men are obviously not going to assume that all women are as slutty as the "characters" in a porn vid, but they cannot hope to understand how women actually feel about and have sex by watching porn. Parents and schools are the last places kids turn to when it comes to sex, and by the time they actually see a real nude person in their bedroom, they've probably seen thousands of digital ones there for years.

And that's just the boys. Consider how a porno makes most girls feel. They see women doing things that the average adult would stutter to explain. Almost all of the women they see are submissive and objectified (that may be something some women are into, but they don't show the woman negotiating her contract or explaining what she will or wont do). So-called "soft" porn or skinimax flix are a little more sensitive to the female psyche, but they are less and less common. (Check out how many of these series are on vs how many websites there are dedicated to the more damaging "slutty" porn).

I am not against images of nudity or even porn for adults (watch it myself from time to time...). But to ask with incredulity why people are so concerned with nudity is to ignore the fact that kids are NOT adults. They are not prepared to deal with the condensed and distorted view of sexuality that porn presents.

Nudity is not the issue. It's the developing psyche of children that people are concerned with.

PS: For the record, i am not religious at all so i am not coming at this from a moralistic point-of-view. I simply have a young daughter who's well-being is my top priority in life, so i think about this stuff a lot.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[DJRumpy]

A "cock flapping about" isn't something a child would normally see in the U.S. The corporations are staying in line with what they believe the American consumer would accept. The corporations job isn't to change sexual awareness or to start a sexual revolution. Their goal is to sell product. Do you base your phone purchase specifically on the ability to see cock waving in front of children? I'm betting that's a pretty low priority for most buyers, and I would imagine MS came to the same conclusion. It is perfectly within their rights to refuse to sell overtly sexual apps in their marketplace. It is perfectly within your right to refuse to purchase it for that reason, but you can't fault them for refusing to do so just as they can't fault you for refusing to buy it.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[MrEricSir]

Could you clarify what "abuse" you're referring to? Something does not compute here.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[IICV]

Hah! I see you've never heard of the Bechdel Test. Almost all modern media inherently promotes a surprisingly patriarchal view of women; they're either the token girl, or talking to men, or talking about men - it's basically all about the guys. Even supposed "chick flicks", despite in theory being about women, generally have female characters whose sole purpose in life is to give the lead woman someone to talk to about the lead man.

And these are the things we show children; almost no Disney movie, for instance, will pass the test.

Given that sort of insidious bullshit, porn is refreshingly straight to the point.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[daem0n1x]

So, nudity == pornography? This only shows how puritan the American mind is.

Nudity is pretty common in arts here in Europe. Also, there are statues of naked people in every corner in every city. A boob shown on TV doesn't cause outrage like in the US, and children don't grow to be serial killers or mass rapists because of it.

I assume Microsoft will ban sculptures like the "Manneken Pis" or "O Desterrado", and images like "The French Republic", because they show inappropriate body parts. how retarded is that?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[SoupGuru]

So the obvious conclusion is that we need better porn. I agree wholeheartedly.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[xouumalperxe]

Within a mental framework that considers nudity that offensive, their actions are perfectly justified. It's the mental framework itself I have issues with.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Gizzmonic]

A "cock flapping about" isn't something a child would normally see in the U.S.

Unless they bathe with Dad, or God forbid, are a male child themselves!

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[dbcad7]

like almost all movies.. most porn is based on formulas, and they create what sells. If you think that most people, even kids, equate movies with reality.. well then your argument is valid.. I just don't think so.. All the other things in your post, objectifying, stuttering, etc.. put you in the sex is wrong an dirty, and men a sexist pigs camp.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is entirely natural, and non-threatening to a child in the U.S. (up to a certain age at least). They do not however, typically watch 'cock flapping about' with a Dad or anyone else, on a media device like a TV or smartphone.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Mikkeles]

'A "cock flapping about" isn't something a child would normally see in the U.S.'

Unless they grew up on a farm and were helping dad cut the head off supper.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[DJRumpy]

What kind of apps are you planning for your children to see on their smartphones? Hell I'm not a prude, but your arguments have gotten a little offtrack with you obsession with allow them to see cock on a smartphone.

Seriously, would you buy a phone that had a selling point that it let your children see random cock, or the one that prevented it? If you choose the former, I'd be really interested to see what kind of parent you turn out to be.

If the phone is for an adult, you realize they can always open up the browser, and hit millions of porn sites, with every depravity of their desire, assuming the phone has some sort parental controls, and that those controls are not turned on.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[zuperduperman]

but they cannot hope to understand how women actually feel about and have sex by watching porn. Parents and schools are the last places kids turn to when it comes to sex, and by the time they actually see a real nude person in their bedroom, they've probably seen thousands of digital ones there for years

Even assuming all you say is true, how on earth do you think restricting apps on a mobile device is going to change this? The browser will browse anything your horny children tell it to. Do you really think locking down one aspect of the phone is going to change that? I'm fine with discussing how pornography can have negative impacts, but when it is used as a pretext for instituting complete lockdown of technology such that people do not even control what runs on their own computers any more I think it is way out of control. Especially when it has absolutely zero impact because there are other avenues for getting porn on to the devices. This has been a problem for a long time and there are lot of solutions to it that don't happen to coincidentally involve handing complete monopolistic lockdown control of content to giant companies.

NB: I will agree that this is a problem in the Android store, by the way, since you can find porn apps there right among apps for grandma and your kids. I have no idea why Google doesn't simply have a rating system that lets a parent filter out adult apps. There has to be a happy medium, I really don't understand why we have to live on the extremes here.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[ubermiester]

If you think that most people, even kids, equate movies with reality.. well then your argument is valid.. I just don't think so..

So you think a 14yo thoughtfully considers the motives and intentions of the people in a porn flick? Your error (IMHO) is that you believe a teen looks at the world in the same way as an adult. They don't. And don't take my word for it, go read any child psychology book and find out just how far a teenager has to go before their brains develop fully. They are hard wired to learn from adults and by example. How do you think they learn how to behave? By thoughtful consideration? They learn by imitation. And even if they instinctively know that what they're seeing is part reality and part fantasy, they are for the most part unable to draw an accurate line between the two. (Remember that many adults are unable to tell the difference between an actor and the character they play).

Yes, (most) adults can distinguish movies from reality, and kids are generally not naive enough to do exactly what they see, but when it comes to things with which they have no direct experience - i.e., hard-core sex, they are almost completely unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. How can they? They have no idea what people actually do behind closed doors, so they are at least partially convinced that what you see is what you (hopefully) get. In fact, the porn experience is most "satisfying" when the fantasy is seen as reality.

All the other things in your post, objectifying, stuttering, etc.. put you in the sex is wrong an dirty

huh? So the term objectification means "dirty"? Do you know what the term means? It refers to the act of de-personification. In other words, it means turning a person into an object. That's not a moral concept, its a psychological one. Criminals objectify their targets to make it easier to hurt them. Soldiers objectify their enemies to make it easier to kill them. Male viewers of hardcore porn (tend to) objectify the women involved because it makes it easier to use them as "holes". Half of the titles you see on porn sites refer to holes, meat, hoes, etc. The whole idea is to give an otherwise frustrated male the chance to put aside all of the wooing stuff and get right down to business. That's not "dirty", its just de-humanizing.

Sex is great. I hope you have lots of it in as many positions as you can manage. In fact, as far as i'm concerned if you want to have sex with farm animals while your cousins watch thats just fine. But if you suggest that 14yo kids should be able to watch a video of it, i have a serious problem with that.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[ubermiester]

how on earth do you think restricting apps on a mobile device is going to change this?

While it is true that there are many ways for a child to get at things they shouldn't, does that mean we should remove all barriers in the name of "openness"? I am a developer and know first-hand the value of open platforms. They are the most fertile ground for innovation and offer end-users the most bang for the buck. But this is not about features, this is about content.

The challenge for phone makers and carriers is to balance the different and often conflicting demands from the market. Almost anyone who buying a phone for their kids wants (at least theoretical) control over what can be done with it. Remember that grade-school kids are getting phones these days, and they don't want some lame "junior" phone. They want an iphone or android smartphone. So for Apple, Motorola, Samsung, HTC, etc, they have to consider how much control they give to the innovators and how much control they retain for the millions of parents who buy their stuff.

The lack of control is not a deal breaker for many parents, but if the smartphone entertainment platform becomes as much about porn as the PC platform has become, they'll start to think twice.

Especially when it has absolutely zero impact because there are other avenues for getting porn on to the devices.

Yes, there are other ways for kids to get at the stuff, but zero impact? The very fact that you are aware of "other avenues" means that the policy has had an impact on how content is delivered. Porn websites are supposed to filter minors. If that is not effective, web filters can do a bit more. The point here is parents want to do all they can to do what they feel is best for for their kids.

Sure, young kids sneak into movies, but does that mean its a good idea to let them in whenever they want? They get a hold of beer, but should we let them drink as much as they want? It's a balancing act. No one is suggesting that we limit political speech or decide what cultural trends are acceptable or not. We're simply talking about the very capitalist, very freedom of choice struggle to keep as many of their customers as possible coming back for more.

That droid or iphone was not built just for you. They had to think about everyone they have to sell to.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[mjwx]

Because multiple people never watch pornography together, right?

This does not make it art any more then going to a restaurant is art.

Don't get me wrong, art can be pornographic, there are many examples from explicit sex scenes in novels to naked paintings (read some ancient Greek stuff, the half naked nymphs that line the temple walls at Angkor) but pornography is not automatically art.

I think it can be argued that pornography produced with the express intent of titillation should not be considered art. I live in a land that considers sex to be a natural and healthy thing that everybody does but most commercially produced pornography cannot be considered art. When I think of eroticism in art, I think of the European movies that get shown after 9 PM at night.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[zuperduperman]

You've made very eloquent arguments for what I consider to be exactly my point of view. You give me an argument:

  "Just because a kind can sneak into a movie doesn't mean we should just let them in whenever they want"

And I give you the same argument:

  "Just because kids can sneak into a movie doesn't mean we should ban everyone from seeing movies not suitable for kids"

This is the same argument: not all things are right for all people. But all it tells us is that offering people control and choice is important. This is exactly what Microsoft and Apple are *not* doing. They are making the choice for you - and coincidentally, creating mini-dictatorships for themselves.

Unfortunately Android is also not giving control and choice because they aren't giving people a way to control what their kids see on the market. However I have much more hope for Android because with a free and open ecosystem you can bet if there is demand it will be filled (and there is demand).

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[lonecrow]

self-abuse themselves

abuse? I think you must be doing it wrong. Maybe try slowing down.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[dbcad7]

So you think a 14yo thoughtfully considers the motives and intentions of the people in a porn flick? Your error (IMHO) is that you believe a teen looks at the world in the same way as an adult. They don't. And don't take my word for it, go read any child psychology book and find out just how far a teenager has to go before their brains develop fully. They are hard wired to learn from adults and by example. How do you think they learn how to behave? By thoughtful consideration? They learn by imitation. And even if they instinctively know that what they're seeing is part reality and part fantasy, they are for the most part unable to draw an accurate line between the two. (Remember that many adults are unable to tell the difference between an actor and the character they play).

If this was so.. then you would have a hell of a lot of murders.. I don't propose that it should be encouraged for young people to watch porn.. my point is, that the whole idea that movies are a model that is automaticly emulated, or even "usualy" emulated, and become an imprint on how someone behaves is incorrect.

Sex object.. depersonalizing.. that's usually a feminist argument. There is usually no more depersonalizing of women in these films than the men in them. That someone may find them a "lesser" person, well that's on them, and I think they have serious issues. Do the films cause people think this way ? or is it the rhetoric of people who think this way.. if it's said enough it must be true ?

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Gizzmonic]

My point is: real life is XXX-rated. Every time you pull out your weenis, you are exposing yourself to a "cock flapping about"-your choice of words, not mine.

Re:Sex Everywhere Already

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that was arkane who posted that...

Feedback

[dimethylxanthine]

Yeah, putting our thumbs, which took quite a few years to evolve, as opposed to using prehistoric tools to operate the touchscreen would certainly be nice. Who uses stylus these days anyway, Nokia?? And while you're at it, why not think about getting your kernel and hardware stacks from people like OpenMoko next time you need to "revamp" the whole OS - would certainly put those millions to much better use, generate interest from a substantial market previously unavailable to MS, and sparking that comeptitive zeal among the biggies again. Hell, HP are doing it and both them and Palm are happy. But yeah I digress... Please fix the touch screen.

What else was easy

[SuperKendall]

And to develop apps in WinMo7 is ridiculously easy. I think that's what will help the platform move along.

Developing for PalmOS was easy. And the iPhone at the start, with web apps...

For some reason users seem dissatisfied with a limited programming model that is easier on the developer but results in less featureful applications.

Re:What else was easy

[shutdown -p now]

Both Silverlight and XNA give you much more rope to hang yourself with compared to "HTML5 apps", and fare much better perf-wise - after all, it's a statically typed VM with a JIT. You probably won't get to raw C++ or even Obj-C levels there (though it depends, e.g. method dispatch is likely to be faster than Obj-C), but it'll rip any JS implementation to shreds, no matter how well-optimized.

Re:What else was easy

[UnknowingFool]

Unfortunately it's more of a chicken and egg problem. Developers go where there is money. The money is where there are users. MS is offering some money but will it be enough to hold them for very long? By removing any legacy devices, MS is also gambling that loyal users and developers don't leave.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

"finish the best Windows Phone release ever together"

Isn't this the only Windows Phone release ever?

Re:Anonymous Coward

[arkane1234]

It's still the absolute best!

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll? Seriously? This guy is dead on. I'm never buying another Windows phone again because MS proved to me that their mobile OS sucked and continues to suck.
 
We got MS fanboys here or fifth graders with modpoints or what?

What an dumb statement

[SuperKendall]

And that is the exact problem. US people, especially religious ones think there's some problem with nudity.

Religious people have a higher birthrate than anyone so I'd rethink the idea they have a problem with nudity alone.

There is also a huge difference between nudity and sex. You can for example find classic works on art in various iPhone applications.

Obviously Microsoft and Apple are not religious companies so religion doesn't enter into to. It's just that they do not care to be associated with sexual products, and why should they not be free to do so if they find it too base or whatever other reason comes to them?

Re:What an dumb statement

[tomhudson]

"Religious people have a higher birthrate than anyone so I'd rethink the idea they have a problem with nudity alone."

You can't get pregnant alone - nude or otherwise (unless you go shopping on the net for a sperm donor and a turkey-baster).

Must be that faith-based schooling - the same stuff that taught people that they could catch STDs off a toilet seat back when it was called VD. Or that douching with coke would prevent pregnancy. And so would coitus interruptus.

Re:What an dumb statement

[darkpixel2k]

You can't get pregnant alone - nude or otherwise (unless you go shopping on the net for a sperm donor and a turkey-baster).

Either that, or you accidentally trip and fall into into the average slashdotter's sock hamper...

Re:What an dumb statement

[tomhudson]

You can't get pregnant alone - nude or otherwise (unless you go shopping on the net for a sperm donor and a turkey-baster).

Either that, or you accidentally trip and fall into into the average slashdotter's sock hamper...

... Eww !- a whole hamper - sounds like a sticky situation.

But if slashdotters are like other guys, there's no risk - they never put their dirty clothes in the hamper, they just call malloc(sizeof(socks)) and store them on the heap. And then they'll just sit there until either:

1. someone else (usually a woman) free()s them properly;
2. another process (family_dog.bin) corrupts the free store;
3. a call to new(TCleanSocks) returns null, so they walk the heap of cashed dirty socks looking for the least objectionable object to reuse.

Re:What an dumb statement

[trytoguess]

Oh, I don't know about that. The proper way for a extremely religious couple to have sex is for the woman and man to cover up everything but the relevant parts, and for the man to finish quickly as possible which gives the woman little to no pleasure. There's no nudity the way we'd reckon it, and it most definitely lacks the intimacy and pleasure even basement dwelling virgins associate with sex.

Re:What an dumb statement

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm religious, and I can tell you for darn sure, my wife would lock me under the stairs if I even suggested that sex was purely functional and that she should chastise herself for wanting pleasure from it. We're Muslim, and in our religion, failing to please your spouse is actually grounds for divorce, from either side. In fact, you'd be surprised to find that there are quite a number of sex manuals (obviously intended for married couples) written in Arabic to help ensure that neither party feels unfulfilled, thus mitigating the risk that they would seek fulfillment elsewhere.

Re:What an dumb statement

[Anonymous Coward]

Religious people have a higher birthrate than anyone so I'd rethink the idea they have a problem with nudity alone.

There's no problem with nudity, so long as you can't see it.

That's why they insist on the light off when they make their sweet love!

Re:What an dumb statement

[trytoguess]

And yet, while the practice isn't universal in your faith (and a highly controversial point), Muslims do practice circumcision of both sexes. A act while pretty much decreases sexual pleasure...

Re:What an dumb statement

[alexandre_ganso]

You can't get pregnant alone - nude or otherwise (unless you go shopping on the net for a sperm donor and a turkey-baster).

Of course you can! http://www.popjolly.com/woman-says-she-became-pregnant-after-watching-porn-in-3d-365

Re:What an dumb statement

[Anonymous Coward]

In actual fact, female circumcision is not allowed in our religion, it just happens to be a *cultural* practice in areas where Islam is also common.

Male circumcision is, at worst, unproven to have any effect on sexual pleasure, and there is a significant body of evidence suggesting that male circumcision provides notable health and hygiene benefits. STD infection rates in circumcised men is lower than in uncircumcised men. I do, however, concede that the research is ongoing and no formal conclusion has been announced by any major research team.

Re:What an dumb statement

[trytoguess]

Though I am aware there's no order for female circumcision, where in the Quran or possibly which Hadith(s) forbids the act? I believe there's a hadith where the prophet mentions it's preferable for a woman to be circumcised source.

It is indeed hard to measure the effect on pleasure. But I have found that if my foreskin is pulled back while I'm wearing cloths, moving around is uncomfortable due to the friction caused by the fabric. Circumcised men don't have this problem of course. I can only assume this callus, or decrease in nerve sensitivity would adversely affect sexual pleasure.

Also, there's plenty of other acts that could increase health. Shaving all your hair, removing the tonsil and nails, etc. I don't think a possibility of better health if one is sexually incautious, or slovenly is enough to justify unnecessary surgery.

"Don't bother with this disaster"

[yelvington]

From http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211?page=0,0

There's no kind way to say it: Windows Phone 7 will be a failure. Announced to much bravado in February as the platform that would breathe life into Microsoft's mobile ambitions, Windows Phone 7 looked based on very early previews as if it might bring something new and exciting to the table. Back then, I noted that I was impressed by what I saw -- with the caveat "so far."

No caveats now: Windows Phone 7 is a waste of time and money. It's a platform that no carrier, device maker, developer, or user should bother with. Microsoft should kill it before it ships and admit that it's out of the mobile game for good. It is supposed to ship around Christmas 2010, but anyone who gets one will prefer a lump of coal. I really mean that.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[lwriemen]

Sounds like Microsoft hasn't learned much from it's AutoPC days. If this article is on target, then the phone companies probably shouldn't waste time developing Windows Phone 7 platforms.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[Rogerborg]

Thanks for the link. Virtual +1 powerup from me.

And... ouch. Harsh, but no surprises. After the Zune and Kin debacles, not to mention... well, ever other version of WinME/Mobile... you'd have to be pretty risk-tolerant to bet on Microsoft doing anything other than their usual half-arsed emulate-abandon-dump strategy with Mobile 7.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[benjymouse]

From http://www.zdnet.com/blog/cell-phones/microsoft-windows-phone-7-technical-preview-a-definitive-guide/4286?pg=8&tag=mantle_skin;content

Windows Phone 7 is a huge departure for the smartphone group at Microsoft and takes quite a radical approach to the way people use their phones. Unlike the iPhone, Google Android, and Palm webOS, WP7 is not focused on the application experience, but is centered on helping you interact with the people you want to and complete the tasks you need to complete with apps mainly working in the background or having other technologies (like Bing Search) do better at meeting your needs without more apps.

The current experience is amazingly stable and fluid and I am quite impressed with what they have done. It has taken some time and they were pretty much out of competing for customers for most of this year, but it looks like they will come out firing with all they have this coming holiday season.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[Minwee]

No matter how poorly Windows Phone 7 does, Microsoft has done everything in its power to ensure that it lasts longer than its predecessor, the Kin.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[Anonymous Coward]

... except that your "review" was written before the technical preview devices were handed out.

You can find some article on the internet to prove just about any point you want to make.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[Anonymous Coward]

Just an FYI. The author, Galen Gruman, is a former Macworld editor. Also, if you flip through his past articles, he tends to be Apple-centric in his writing. And he seems to employ a somewhat sensationalistic writing style. From what I can infer, I don't think he's even used one of the developer released WP7 prototypes. Just saying he might not be the most unbiased reviewer in the world.

So far I've seen 2 bad reviews (infoworld and boygeniusreport), both from Apple leaning authors. CNET, Gizmodo, and Engadget which have never been that in love with MS products reviews are more cautiously optimistic (while pointing out real flaws - lack of copy/paste, multitasking, etc).

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[Tawnos]

http://www.infoworld.com/author-bios/galen-gruman?page=1

Not exactly an unbiased source. Apple fanboy all the way.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[gbjbaanb]

No caveats now: Windows Phone 7 is a waste of time and money. It's a platform that no carrier, device maker, developer, or user should bother with.

Now, now that's surely not fair. After Kin, Verizon should be champing at the bit to release loads of Windows 7 phones and plans.

Re:"Don't bother with this disaster"

[dangitman]

From http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211?

From http://www.zdnet.com/blog/cell-phones/microsoft-windows-phone-7-technical-preview-a-definitive-guide/4286?pg=8&tag=mantle_skin;content

Gosh, I wonder who would win in a "which is the most stupid waste of bandwidth for a supposed technology journalism site" smack-down; ZDnet or InfoWorld? We may never know.

They should drop "Windows" from the name.

[aapold]

And "mobile". Hell, just called it Seven.

Re:They should drop "Windows" from the name.

[revlayle]

You say that now... until it puts your girlfriend's head in a box for you!

Re:They should drop "Windows" from the name.

[jez9999]

I was thinking more along the lines of Jeri Ryan..... and curves, for that matter...

Re:They should drop "Windows" from the name.

[Locutus]

Maybe they should call it the Microsoft Kin. Oh wait a minute...

LoB

Re:They should drop "Windows" from the name.

[shutdown -p now]

It doesn't have "Mobile" in the name. It's "Windows Phone 7" - RTFT!

Corporate "improvements" will kill the device...

[sargeUSMC]

My guess is that the thing that will kill this device (like most MS devices that have to compete in a market they haven't cornered), is the fact that by the time the management, sales, and the lawyer teams get done "improving" the device, you won't be able to do anything on it without having to pay through the nose. Repeatedly. Forever.

So, even if the device ends up being a marvel of technology (which seems unlikely given the MS mobile paradigm), it will end up being locked behind a walled garden, which is locked up in a castle, surrounded by a moat, filled with alligators, etc. Sorry, couldn't resist a little hyperbole.

Hmm

[jav1231]

Seriously, if they're building a phone OS at this point in the game, it better offer a paradigm shift. Otherwise, it's the Kin or at best the Zune, relegated!

Re:Hmm

[arkane1234]

I agree... although I wonder how much resentment from the community is effecting the ultimate bottomline of anything new.
Pavlovian conditioning has taught people that Microsoft = drawing you in to cook you slowly.
Once you're out of the pot a couple of times, you learn that pots are bad. Unfortunately, corporations are a little slow, but people are far more pocket-conscious.

Re:Hmm

[jav1231]

I think people, to some extent, are at a point where everything Microsoft doesn't hold as much sway. It used to be that Microsoft mated everything well to its OS. All of their server offerings give you Windows as the basic GUI (something I think they did TOO much of). WinCE was an attempt to do what Apple did very well, scale the basic OS down. But Apple re-wrote the GUI for the phone. WinCE looked like Windows crammed into a phone.
That said, the hurdle is very high for Microsoft. Of late, they haven't done a lot to clear hurtles, only match them at best but with lost momentum. I contend that it's an Apple / Android world on smartphones for some time to come. Microsoft has an insatiable lust for doing what everyone else does. It looks like Windows Phone 7 will be to smartphones what Bing is to Google, Zune is to iPod.

Re:Hmm

[Locutus]

"Microsoft = drawing you in to cook you slowly"? Most consumers still have no clue but what they do have a clue about is that Apple made a phone/PDA sexy and you are _in_ if you have one. It helps too that they are easy to use and work well( except if you hold the 4 a certain way ). Android brings the easy to use UI to a plethora of devices which don't have the Apple cool factor but has the easy to use and is useful but it also brings customers to all the other hardware vendors with very little upfront costs for the OS/software.

And those hardware vendors know what it is like in the PC and netbook segment where Microsoft is threatening them and dictating product development and marketing and they do not want any part of that. This is why Windows Phone 7 will fail. No matter how much they offer companies to sell Windows Phone 7, they will not be able to pull exclusionary and exclusive deals like they did with netbooks and PCs and because of that, there is no sexy in Windows. In the end, only Microsoft zealots will purchase Windows Phone 7 phones and a handful of business managers will dictate to staff to use only those phones "because they are a Windows shop".

What's worst, at a time when Microsoft's investors are wondering where the growth has gone, Microsoft will have to pump hundreds of millions quarterly into just marketing this thing and it'll show up on the books. Not to mention the hundreds of millions Microsoft is probably already starting to pump into the tablet segment attempting to not only stem ARM Linux or Android based tablets but also iPad growth. I don't see the 4th quarter looking good at all for Microsoft investors. Desktop Windows, MS Office, and Windows Server will still make them billions, but once again, billions in losses and no indication of success outside of Windows will pull down the stock even further. IMO

LoB

What is the milestone?

[vlm]

has today reached its biggest milestone yet,

So what exactly is the milestone? I'm used to milestones being a big logical-AND of finally successfully achieving a bunch of technical requirements. This seems to be a "marketing milestone"?

The concept of a "milestone" from hiking or whatever, is that according to the surveyors you've come exactly 5280 feet since the last milestone. Not "here is a pretty picture", or "we figured we'd generate some buzz by placing the milestone here".

As a side question to all you hikers from the civilized world, do you guys have "kilo-stones" or whatever? Seriously?

Re:What is the milestone?

[arkane1234]

As a side question to all you hikers from the civilized world, do you guys have "kilo-stones" or whatever? Seriously?
I wouldn't doubt it... it's just a number.
Whatever the culture of a region deems a tool is a tool, is my guess.

Re:What is the milestone?

[Anonymous Coward]

> As a side question to all you hikers from the civilized world, do you guys have "kilo-stones" or whatever? Seriously?

At least in German the word is still Meilenstein - archaic, strictly speaking, since the unit isn't used at all anymore, but that's language for you. There's other situations where Meile is still used and simply refers to the arbitrary idea of a distance. Flaniermeile, for example, refers to a stretch of downtown shopping streets where you stroll on the weekends to see and be seen.

Re:What is the milestone?

[cbhacking]

Microsoft uses the term "milestone" to denote steps along a product's development. They have various names - some actually have the word 'milestone', such as Milestone Quality, Milestone 1 (M1), etc. - but CTPs (Community Tech Previews, essentially early non-public betas), public beta, RC, RTM, and the various post-release maintenance and service packs are all milestones (SPs often have multiple milestones of their own). Unlike "traditional" milestones, the distance (either in time or changes) between milstones varies widely, but conceptually they are just markers for the current stage within a product's development.

WinPhone7 just hit the CTP milestone, meaning that it's now close enough to complete that MS is willing to show it to people outside the company. This is a pretty big deal to the company, though the general public won't see anything new except for hands-on reviews (of which there are plenty). Release (and, if a lot has to be changed at the last minute, RC) are bigger milestones, but the first CTP is always a big step anyhow.

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[arkane1234]

Let's hope they don't go the route of RIM and basically make it so anything cool on the phone required a Blackberry Enterprise server, which licensed your ass.
Nearly everything aside from browsing required a BES.
I guess in MS's case, it'd be Microsoft Enterprise Server, just to be original ;)

I kept hoping ...

[bkeahl]

I'm running Windows Mobile 6.x on my HTC and have been holding out waiting for 7 to see if they were going to jump the other players in the game.

It looks more like they stumbled, tried to avoid the mud puddle, and landed in the horse manure instead.

I much prefer the 6.x interface with the HTC Home front-end. I only stuck with the Windows platform because of the ability to email sync with a PC-based client (Outlook).

Great. I'm also running XP and 2k because Vista and 7 seemed to toss the good and introduce more trouble.

Too bad Linux hasn't come up with a worthy GUI/WinAPI package. If it weren't for supporting clients I'd walk away on the PC side. Windows Phone 7 has pretty much convinced me the to leave them on the PDA side.

Re:I kept hoping ...

[shutdown -p now]

I think that's precisely the problem with WP7.

For those with WM background, it kills off all the features that were liked (by some) in WM. A lot of people liked it for being extensible (apps etc) and hackable. For example, wireless hotspot functionality, just added to Android, was on WM years ago. Multitasking, copy-paste - if, in 2005, you'd tell a WM user that he would not find them on a smartphone released in two years, he'd laugh in your face. And some - like you? - even liked the stylus-driven interface, because that allows smaller controls, and therefore more information displayed on the screen at once.

The other, broader category is people coming from Android and, especially, iPhone. Their first question will be, "so what does it do better". And I don't see anything really compelling in that department. The UI is fairly different, which may prove to be easier to use (I don't have any definite opinion, and it's hard to make any objective conclusions until you get a chance to hold and use an actual phone with it - emulator is unhelpful there), but that's about it. All other features are available elsewhere, and there are more of them, too, even in traditionally feature-limited iPhone. The only point which may affect things, and on which there is no clarity yet, is how the app landscape will look like. Which leads us to the next thing.

WP7 development tools are good and easy to use; subjectively more so than on any other mobile platform with the possible exception of WM (it would be very surprising if that wasn't true...). But restricting it to .NET apps only, and then also to verifiable subset of CIL (meaning: no C/C++, not even compiled to CIL), means that developers are rather limited in what they can do compared to iOS or Android. Portability and cross-platform code reuse? Forget it. APIs, too - there's decent coverage of UI-related stuff, but pretty much everything else is unimpressive.

It might be that the sheer ease and cost of development (VS Phone Express is free, and unlike Xcode you don't need a Mac - which most people don't have - to run it) will be enough to generate enough developer interest to get a good kickstart for the app store... but it's all a very big if.

Re:I kept hoping ...

[bkeahl]

Well put! I'd hate to think how many different ROMs I loaded on this puppy, along with various apps, until I cobbled something together that fit my needs.

Perhaps the problem now is there is very little more I need of the phone, so it's hard to one-up.

The problem is, of course, the newer environments are not backward compatible, mostly on purpose, so I lose functionality by "upgrading".

Anyhow, I think you described the implications of the W7 release quite well. Unfortunately, I don't have mod points to give :).

So...

[KshGoddess]

"We've got the software running, someone give us some hardware to run it on!"?

Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me. But then again, it's windows. Sorry, "Windows Phone 7."

Does that mean

[Ranger]

it will place and receive calls without giving you the "blue screen of death"?

"I'm sorry your call to 9-1-1 cannot be placed at this time because your phone is rebooting. Please try your call later."

Awwww

[pythonboy]

From the app store certification requirements...

Content not allowed: Content that depicts or suggests prostitution.

Well that rules out any MS Office interaction.

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[sargeUSMC]

Yep – The corporate philosophy of “how do we take our new product and pigeon-hole it into existing products to force users to purchase/upgrade/buy extensions for those products ?” seems to be what will doom this product regardless of its “techniness”.

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[Locutus]

while that might be true with RIM, RIM is probably quite happy to be _the_ enterprise messaging phone and the last time I looked, RIM made a good profit. Microsoft on the other hand, loses hundreds of millions annually on Windows CE based products and has since the late '90s. And there is nothing wrong with a company being good at their market and being good enough their products are _picked_ over the competition.

Microsoft does not see things this way. They must own the market and they are willing to spend billions to do that and they have. Profits from Windows desktop based software( WIndows OS, MS Office, and Windows Server ) make up ~90% of Microsoft profits. Microsoft execs live and breath by the now infamous "Does anybody remember Windows?" statement Bill Gates made in the mid '90s when Microsoft product managers and engineers were crafting Microsoft's Java product list. That statement and the following directives from Bill and other executives turned Microsofts Java products into products whos purpose was to tie customers to Windows, not enable Microsoft to compete for customers and profits. They already had the profits from Windows and losing those profits are more important than winning new profits. IMO

And Adobe would be a fool to put any effort, funded or not, into putting Flash on a Microsoft phone product. Microsoft may not have dissed Adobe like Apple did but their Silverlight is directly targeting Flash just as .NET was and is designed to tie vendors to Windows instead of having platform choices which Java provides.

LoB

Just checking...

[jimboindeutchland]

I actually though most of it looked pretty good (in the cnet demo anyway) and I'd really like to see a bit of extra competition in this space.

But I just wanted to check: now that we all hate Apple, is it ok to like Microsoft stuff now?

Milestone for a Millstone

[crovira]

Window xxx #'s biggest problems are:
1) that its from Microsoft, (they're on your desktop at work, 'nuf said,)
2) that its based on Windows, (its on your desktop at work, 'nuf said,)
3) that its NOT something you actually bought for yourself,
    (and never has been, [if it wasn't built into the box when it arrived, you wouldn't have it in the house,])
4) that its from Microsoft, (who insist on shooting themselves in the foot by reminding you that its Windows xxx #.)

Microsoft's problems will remain for as long as:
1) the accountants in HR where you work have total control of what you can do,
2) the accountants at Microsoft have total control over what Microsoft can do,
3) all accountants are risk averse bunches of unimaginative, joy-killing non-entities.

I predict utter failure for Microsoft with complete certainty because of their past success, and how they achieved it.

They became dominant on the desktop by buggering and then beggaring all of their 'partners" until the margins were so thin that there are fewer PC chassis manufacturer left ACROSS THE ENTIRE PLANET than the average person has fingers and toes.

Microsoft so commoditized the PC industry that only the extremely risk averse are left.

Innovation costs money and is risky.

Nobody has any money left to risk.

Microsoft has effectively written its own epitaph: "A Computer On Every Desktop." To which a wag might add: "And that's IT!"

MS still has a chance....

[recoiledsnake]

A few ways that Windows Phone 7 can carve out it's own niche in the new dog-eats-dog mobile space:

1) Concentrate more on Corporate features.. full Exchange and Office support, Sharepoint, etc. than iPhone/Android

2) Leverage XBox integration and XNA Developer base, Microsoft demo-ed developing games for XBox, Windows PCs and Windows Phone 7 from pretty much the same codebase(except of course, controller and graphic resolution and capability differences). See http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/09/microsoft-shows-off-xna-games-running-on-windows-phone-full-3d/

This might result in the big Xbox/Windows developer base "easily" porting from Xbox, or simultaneously developing Xbox, Windows and Phone 7 games... a big plus compared to the Objective C and Java hurdles that iPhones and Android development creates.

And integrate with Xbox/Kinect somehow... use it as an additional controller or to navigate menus on Xbox?

3)Tighter Windows 7 Integration.. hopefully develop cool features such as controlling the phone from the PC, using it as an additional alert display etc etc.

4) Leverage the huge .NET/C#/VB.NET developer/Third parties base to develop applications.

An uphill battle for sure... but I won't count MS out yet. After all, they have inscribed "Developers, Developers, DEVELOPERS!" on the side of the free phone prototypes that they're handing out to developers.

Re:MS still has a chance....

[dmgxmichael]

I would personally add

5) Apple signed a contract with Satan (AT&T). As long as Apple lets AT&T have exclusive iPhone rights there will be people disgusted with the abyssal quality of AT&T's service that won't touch an iPhone because they don't want to have anything to do with AT&T. Android isn't similarly hindered, but it's also not got as great a market penetration.

6) Phones have a much shorter life than PC's. Except for enthusiasts like the majority of the readers of this site, most people keep a PC much longer than a phone. Cell phones tend to rotate with contract changes - about every 2 years. PC's stick around 5 to 8 years on average, even longer among corporations.

So yeah, Microsoft still has a shot. But that shot is quickly becoming a moon shot. They need to get their act together and soon.

Re:MS still has a chance....

[Strudelkugel]

The more I use XCode and IB, the more relevant #4 becomes. Anyone who has used Visual Studio will be shocked at what an archaic POS XCode and IB are. If you want to go back 10 years in development time, write software for an iPhone.

I think Apple is nearing the end of its run for the smartphone market. If Microsoft can do a decent job with Mobile 7, no doubt large numbers of developers will move to Visual Studio Express, etc, given how bad XCode and IB are.

Re:MS still has a chance....

[zuperduperman]

Concentrate more on Corporate features.. full Exchange and Office support, Sharepoint, etc. than iPhone/Android

This is where MS has shot themselves in the foot big time. Corporates and businesses absolutely hate the concept of 3rd party app stores and will not (can not, in most cases) deal with them. Apple made a compromise but only for companies with > 500 employees. There's a huge opportunity here for small businesses who need custom software on their devices (eg: roving sales person can submit orders on their mobile device, etc.). But MS just gave that market the huge middle finger by locking down their device. Android seems to be the only player with a welcoming platform for these folks.

Yes but look what he used it for...

[SuperKendall]

From the article:

My typical day consisted of sending and receiving lots of text messages and email messages through various accounts, checking my Facebook feeds, using Twitter through the Dabr.co.uk mobile Twitter site (Microsoft please get Twitter integration or an app added soon), managing my appointments, and checking out friends' photos.

Wouldn't that also be a great description of the Kin's strengths?

Although I think Kin was able to work with Twitter...

In Defense of

[Paulinedispie]

Having had the opportunity to play with a WM7 device at TechEd I have to say, it is very cool. The last time anyone did anything truly revolutionary in the mobile market was the original iPhone. Most every mobile device to hit the market since then has sought to "kill" or copy the iPhone. Even Google is guilty of this. While yes, Android is a nice OS, Apple set the precedent and Google has only worked to improve on an existing design rather than create anything truly unique. Whether WM7 will be met with success when it comes to market is truly anyone's guess. But what Microsoft has tried to do is revolutionize the platform itself and I commend them for that. Too often, I think, people see the current incarnation of MS as the same MS that has been around for decades and assume that the company is incapable of changing or growing. I work with MS tech on a daily basis and this simply isn't true. Personally, I am very optimistic and I can't wait to get own a WM7 device.

Re:In Defense of

[LordThyGod]

They already tried to "revolutionize" the market -- with Kin. This is just a matter of throwing spaghetti on the wall, until something sticks. And yea, they suck at more stuff than not.

From best to worst

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Mobile 6.5 is easily my favorite mobile operating system. Now, Windows Phone 7 has removed EVERYTHING that made it good, and ADDED all the things that make the iPhone suck. Yeah, I'm pretty sure my next phone is going to be Android. Not that Android is perfect, but it's the least of the evils.

Re:From best to worst

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't agree with you more. I like the WM 6.x platform for its openness and hackability. MS could have improved and modernized it, but instead they are destroying it. Rather, they are abandoning it, shitting on its remains, and creating an abomination with a similar name to replace it. Ten years of development flushed right down the fucking toilet. It's kind of sad seeing all these windows-mobile-centric websites trying to remain relevant, talking optimistically about WP7, as if we didn't already know it will be a trainwreck. And these idiots running the show at Microsoft, chasing after Apple's coat-tails, have pushed all of their most avid supporters right into the arms of their biggest enemy.

I know this much -- I won't be buying another smartphone until the dust settles. Windows Phone will die KIN-style, and HTC will go Android-only and finally bring all the *good* (read: keyboard) handsets over to the Google side. Maybe we will even have LTE by then, and my Sprint contract will be expired. HTC TP3 running Android with Verizon coverage and a GSM sim card -- I can't fucking wait.

Welcome to 2006!

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be really impressive if it was four years ago!

Usability

[Stan Vassilev]

I just want to let the quotes say few things first:

However, customizing and navigating the screen can sometimes be a cumbersome task.

More importantly, we're just not sold on the layout.

Now, some might complain that this type of navigation requires too much scrolling and can be overly complicated and admittedly, when compared to iOS and Android, this is true we fear this will be a turnoff to consumers.

I had the same exact observations few months ago when they demonstrated their new mobile OS for the first time. Looks like Microsoft's attempt at making an interface that's easier and more innovative than Android/iPhone ends up "complicated" and "cumbersome".

If their goal was to make a complex post-modern interface targeted to a small niche of geeks willing to get involved with such a taxing concepts as their scrolling clipped hub views, that'd be fine.

But they're achieving exactly the opposite of what they want, which is tragic. It means very likely their marketing will go "mainstream" and it'll be largely ignored, just like their Kin series (which, by the way have mostly the same GUI as Win 7 Mobile).

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[spazimodo]

RIM has chosen to follow the path of Lotus Notes. You can still find Notes around in large companies but IBM's complete lack of attention to small/mid-size businesses killed off Notes in those environments. RIM is in the process of doing the same thing - they've released 3 or 4 server products targeted at the small/mid-size space and then killed them off leaving their customers in the lurch.

At this point they've completely ceded the small/medium business market to iOS and Android. While there are still plenty of mid-sized companies with BESs, I see more and more companies moving everyone over to iPhones, Droids, etc.

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[shutdown -p now]

And Adobe would be a fool to put any effort, funded or not, into putting Flash on a Microsoft phone product.

You go tell them that.

By the way, do you know that WP7 will not support Silverlight in the browser? Apps only... so there's plenty room for Flash. And, of course, with Flash on Android and likely other mobile platforms other than iPhone, it's a straightforward way to write cross-platform mobile apps.

Silverlight ... is designed to tie vendors to Windows instead of having platform choices which Java provides.

Why is there a simultaneous release policy for Windows and OS X for Silverlight, then?

Re:Corporate "improvements" will kill the device..

[mlts]

Microsoft doesn't need a BES like subsystem. They own the E-mail enterprise market which is locked down tightly with Exchange. Except for larger companies (IBM and Google come to mind) that have their own E-mail systems, almost everyone else, from Fortune 10 businesses down to SMBs are running Microsoft's offering.

Has this Reviewer Actually Used a Device?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Galen has actually used the device or paid attention to the presentations he's attended. His descriptions of panos and list controls are nonsensical. His statements that applications are killed when new applications are launched are incorrect. He calls this a rip off of a 2007 iPhone and then later bashes the UI.