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China Shoots Down Another Satellite
An anonymous reader writes "It was reported this weekend that China shot down another of its satellites in January this year. 'The website of Hong Kong-based Phoenix TV said the anti-satellite missile test, if confirmed, is likely related to the missile interception test, which occurred at the peak of a dispute between Beijing and Washington on a massive US arms sales deal to Taiwan. During the interception test, US agencies spotted two missiles launched from two locations from the Chinese mainland, colliding outside the atmosphere, a Pentagon spokesperson said.' I guess ballistic trajectories that intersect with orbital ones don't count as 'weapons in space.'"
in orbit. Great.
Nice way to make even more space junk. Nice going, China. Are you trying to destroy access to LEO over time?
Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
I totally agree with Linus on this one.
The man has nailed it. He makes lot of sense as always.
Does anyone know how much of an issue the debris from these satellites are? From the perspective of collisions in orbit more so than what happens when it lands (I imagine the parts are small enough that reentry will take care of them).
Didn't you make enough bloody space junk the first time? NEO pollution is becoming a serious issue, and this isn't helping anyone.
They always want to be the best in everything. Now it seems that the Chinese are trying to become the country with the most objects in earth orbit.
I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.
With China trying to show off what it can do, what happens if they get enough fast moving junk in the orbit levels that it starts hitting other objects... which will promptly start speeding off in other directions, essentially causing a chain reason, tearing up anything in orbit at that level, eventually making an almost impenetrable barrier of fast moving stuff, blocking any chances at anything going into space for the next several hundreds years?
Is there any way to slow the junk down so it hits atmosphere and burns up?
Many military scholars believe it was targeting the Patriot missile defense system that Taiwan was trying to buy from the US at that time
Orbital rendezvous has been done since the early 60s and that's pretty much all "shooting down" a satellite is - put something in the path of the satellite in an opposite orbit and they hit each other at 36,000 miles per hour (18,000 mph one way and 18,000 mph the other way)- woop tee doo.
Intercepting a missile with another missile in the atmosphere is still something that's not quite there yet - consider all the misses that the Patriot system has at least based upon its performance in the first Gulf War in 1991 (19 years ago!). In other words, the Chinese are just proving that they're willing to put shit in orbit in the way of one of their satellites and they think that's competition for the Patriot system? It that how we're supposed to take it?
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
This is part of developing the technology to take out GPS and other communication satellites in case of a confrontation with the U.S.A. . Much of the U.S. war fighting capability is highly dependent on GPS and satellite based communication. The Chinese military is preparing to fight a war against the U.S. (this is completely independent of whether or not they are planning to fight such a war). The scary part of this is that even if current planners have no intention of ever fighting a war against the U.S. history has shown that when military and political leaders believe that they are in a position to win such a war they often choose to wage it even if a rational analysis says that it is a bad idea (see World War I).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
What absolute bunk. No doubt you are also a staunch believer in the hoax of global warming. There is absolutely NO credible evidence that the near earth space is "polluted". This is all just bullshit big government propaganda, no doubt intended to form the basis for future MASSIVE rises in taxation to pay for a "cleanup" (likely involving the disappearance of plane fulls of cash into union and left wing paramilitary group pockets).
I wish I had some mod points.
"a Pentagon spokesperson said.' I guess ballistic trajectories that intersect with orbital ones don't count as 'weapons in space.'"
In fairness, the Outer Space Treaty, to which both China, the U.S. and most other countries of the world are signatories, does not prohibit the design and deployment of *conventional* weapons in space, a detail which the U.S. has previously taken advantage of. Whether conventional weapons should be allowed in space is open for argument.
...building a great wall of space junk...
Rational analysis says war is the best way for military and political leaders to gain more power.
Even a losing cause that fucks everyone else can work for them.
The story, on a Chinese website (.cn domain) is reporting that the US is reporting that China shot down the satellite. I'm not sure how reliable any of this really is.
Apparently people have completely missed the point of this article. Space junk, yes it's a problem, but did no one grasp the importance that one nation is capable of SHOOTING DOWN SATELLITES?!?
It's obviously aimed at countering US ballistic missile technology that we're selling to Taiwan. Perhaps not to intercept the missiles, but to destroy US GPS satellites so the US missiles won't track. This is just as important as ballistic missile interception program. There's going to be another arms race to have satellites that can "counter" incoming missiles and missiles that can counter the counter on the satellite.
Lastly, can we please stop arming other countries. It always backfires and we end up getting shot by the same bullets we gave out.
Honestly, the only people who benefit from this China-US military hype are the huge suppliers of military equipment. China and the US will never fight against each other. They are joined at the hip, about as much as California and, say, Idaho are. China needs the US, the US needs China. Stop buying into the paranoid, tinfoil-hat ladden, slashdot reactionary ultra-hyped bullshit that they're feeding you.
Besides, the US can out-nuke them any day if they really needed to. :)
Russia can shoot down the moon!
The only winning move is not to play
The problem is that China has a VERY active space weapons program and will not give it up. If you look closely at what they are working on, it should be obvious that it is not about defense, but about an offense. They are
Heck, even the agreement to get FTA and WTA required them to open their money in 2004, quit dumping, quit subsidizing, and drop trade barriers. Yet, they fixed their money against the dollar, they dump more than ever, subsidies have actually gone up (vs 1999), though trade barriers have shifted all around.
China is positioning themselves for a hot war.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
We aren't too excited, because the USA had this tech (destroying satellite) for some time. If anything it re-establish the BOP which is good thing for peace.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
That's what we need. Satellites should be outfitted with pooper scoopers and plastic bags. They should be required by international law to clean up after themselves, and toss the plastic bag at the sun afterwards.
Or maybe one of those "cleanup the side of the road" community walks . . . except in space.
This all sounds silly, but maybe we do need some kinda of special cleanup satellite. It would probably be a great opportunity for the international space community to cooperate, as on the ISS . . . ?
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Should i care? NO!
If China is testing their stuff, US goes on alert, if US is testing their stuff anyone else should shut up and poop in their pants??? NO!
Space is Free For All race, any nation has the right to explore, and put satelites into orbit. And if they feel so they can blow them up too. Compaired to all the US junk in orbit, that ESA, China, Russia, India and others have to avoid, plus all the natural space waste that comes to earth at far greater speeds, few blown satelites are really not rendering orbits useless.
And if US is doing something other Countries are not comfortable with (eg space weapons), US expects others to just watch and stand by unprepared? Heck no!
Playing with fire is allways dangerous, and at some point your plan can backfire badly, and space togather with Earth's satelite orbits doesnt belong to one Country on this planet, and sooner world will realise that cooperation brings greater good than semi cold war arms races, the better chances we all have to SURVIVE on this Planet.
Things in a rear mirror might be behind you
You know future missles could use this, shoot up into an orbit and sit dormant for a period of time until its close to its target and then fire the remaining fuel to pull it out of orbit and rely on its remaining battery to guide itself to its target on the other side of the globe. It could make ICBMs a joke
I am no expert in this field, but to me it seems not too far-fetched that the system will also be suitable in the future to get rid of space debris.
China shot down a satallite... and then decaprio woke up.
So is this what that "UFO" was that everyone was talking about the other day?
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
China is by far the heaviest polluter on the planet. Not only have they surpassed America in terms of CO2, but they surpassed America in ALL other forms of pollution around 2000. How? Because they have little to no pollution controls. And where they put it, as required by treaties, they regularly just turn them off due to the loss of efficiencies. Heck, if CHina's economy slows down to 5% as expected, then around 2019, they will have emitted 1/2 of ALL CO2 that has ever been emitted by man. And if they do not slow down, then around 2015, they will break that barrier. They currently account for just under 1/2 of mercury being emitted. etc. etc. etc.
So, if they have ZERO interest in their own citizens, let alone those in India, Viet Nam, Koreas, Japan, Russia, etc., WHAT COULD MAKE YOU THINK THAT THEY GIVE A CRAP ABOUT SPACE?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Let's see... when's the last time China invaded another nation? When is the last time a Western nation invaded another nation?
But let's forget history for a moment. What does the Air Force see in our future? And, consider you aren't American for a moment, and what your rational response to this policy would be.
As we implement our vision to fully exploit space as a space combat command, AFSPC [Air Force Space Command] will become a significant force provider of CS [counter space], conventional and strategic prompt global strike capabilities with even greater force enabler capabilities. As depicted in Figure 2-2, our space capabilities are built upon a structure where the uppermost portions of SFE [Space Force Enhancement] and SFA [Space Force Application] depend on a solid foundation. While our ultimate goals are truly to “exploit” space through SFE and SFA missions, as with other mediums, we cannot fully “exploit” that medium until we first “control” it. The needed foundation, therefore, consists of the assured space access and infrastructure provided by the SS and MS areas along with the CS capabilities (SSA, Defensive Counterspace (DCS), and OCS) required to control space and ensure Space Superiority...
3.2.2 MID-TERM (FY12--17)
In the Mid-Term, AFSPC will deploy a new generation of responsive space access, prompt global strike, and space superiority capabilities. Our Weapons Officers and other space professionals will integrate and operate these capabilities into joint and task force operations. In practical terms, AFSPC will continue to prioritize efforts that support SFE transformation to include Transformational Communications and space-based Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) capabilities. Responsive spacelift capabilities become more important in this timeframe due to their support of both Global Strike and DCS (Responsive replenishment of space assets). Such work will increase support to the terrestrial warfighter while protecting US space assets and demonstrating space combat capabilities.
3.2.3 FAR-TERM (FY18--30)
In the Far-Term, AFSPC will target resources toward fielding and deploying space and missile combat forces in depth, allowing us to take the fight to any adversary in, from, and through space, on-demand. Based on previous development efforts, AFSPC will focus on Battlespace Awareness (space and terrestrial), OCS and DCS, and prompt global strike and LBSD capabilities. Many of these will be supported by responsive spacelift and payload capabilities. We will continue to explore advanced technologies to revolutionize and transform our operations beyond 2025. The result will be a space combat command that is organized, trained, and equipped to rapidly achieve decisive results on or above the battlefield, anywhere, anytime.
Pentagon spokesperson said.' I guess ballistic trajectories that intersect with orbital ones don't count as 'weapons in space.'"
My spokesperson says: "Who the fuck started the whole star wars hype?"
I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.
like the fact that our military is wholly dependent on GPS and real-time connected war fighting. Loss of satellites hurts us a *lot* more than them.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
China has an interesting social experiment; a predominately male population is growing up, and during peak testosterone production there will be no wives. What do ya think is going to happen?
Could it lead to a war like aggressiveness? Stay tuned.
What do ya think is going to happen
The age difference between couples will increase.
the Chinese military seem far more rational than the US military at this time...
thats ok, they can have France....
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
You misspelled "nationalized".
China is positioning themselves for a hot war.
...is one interpretation. Another is that because they are way behind the us in terms of tech, both deployed and under development, they are trying to make up quality with quantity. And they are arming like mad, because they are way behind in the race.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Not News: China shoots down a satellite using ICBM scale hardware (the speculative fiction and barely, if at all, relevant details padding TFA not withstanding).
News: US shoots down a satellite using a missile built from off the shelf components,
News: launched from a fighter jet,
News: 25 years ago. OK, not strictly 'news' but darn sure puts perspective on China's 'accomplishment' as well as the DoD FUD poured over it to try to make it sound newsworthy.
No offense meant to the poster. It's good to keep track of what non-news the FUDmongers are aping from government propa^H^H^H^H^Hpress releases. The only real news here is what kind of verbal bilge the government is trying to get you to dance to.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Except for the fact that GPS satellites are not in LEO orbit. It would not affect the GPS constellation at all. It could affect future launches of GPS by preventing future launches. Most, but not all comm satellites are in higher orbits. Also with the same caveats on future launches.
Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
The reference is this blog posting over at Foreign Policy which was posted back in March: http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/blog/5630 The test was of a sub-orbital kill vehicle intercepting a sub-orbital target, both launched from ballistic missiles. There was no orbital debris generated and a satellite was not destroyed. This can be verified by looking at NASA's Orbital debris Quarterly Reports as well as the satellite catalog on Space Track: http://www.orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/newsletter/newsletter.html http://www.space-track.org/perl/login.pl However, because the same technology can be used for both hit-to-kill missile defense and hit-to-kill ASATs, the test can be seen as another test of China's ASAT capability, in the same way as the destruction of USA 193 (a satellite) by the US Aegis missile defense system
"Trying is only the first step towards failure." - Homer
99% of the posts that aren't forced to have one because they don't reply to anything just keep the "Re:" subject line that Slashdot fills in for them. Using them as a rhetorical device to split one part of your post from the rest is basically their main function.
The fact that China will continue their space based weapons, and more importantly, they will continue to purposely pollute space with their tests.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The satellite it's still there, you guys are holding it wrong.
I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.
Yeah, like China soon starting a very profitable space junk removal service at a global level?
Doesn't make sense to add more of their own junk though :)
Oh wait.. I mean Si-chaun!!
Except for the fact that GPS satellites are not in LEO orbit. It would not affect the GPS constellation at all. It could affect future launches of GPS by preventing future launches. Most, but not all comm satellites are in higher orbits. Also with the same caveats on future launches.
I don't think any amount of stuff on LEO would prevent launching of military satellites to higher orbits, or even to LEO (they'd just have a short lifetime on LEO).
Ok, once we can move a nice little asteroid and break it into small pebbles covering LEO, then we perhaps could make the environment too hazardous for launches. But, alas, our puny technology can't do that yet. OTOH, at that point we'll probably also have the technology to clean up the orbit, even from ground (think of giant sharks with lasers in their heads, roaming the oceans and looking into the space, zapping space junk out of orbit).
The gender difference between couples will decrease.
> I don't think any amount of stuff on LEO would prevent launching of military satellites to higher orbits,
Define "any". It's a problem. Really.
Maury
> I don't think any amount of stuff on LEO would prevent launching of military satellites to higher orbits,
Define "any". It's a problem. Really.
Maury
"Any amount" as in amount that is small enough so that interaction between debris particles doesn't cause very rapid depletion, while still being large enough to pose more than 50% chance of collision with a rocket booster stage as it zips through LEO altitudes towards MEO or GEO.
Note: if there are gaps in debris field allowing higher probability of successful LEO penetration, that also counts as not being dense enough. And in this context, it's worth noting that while it would take only a dense enough band of debris orbiting above equator to prevent launches from equator, preventing launches from higher latitudes would require complete blanketing of the Earth, which requires something like 1-2 orders of magnitude more debris.
dot.
This was the Times of LONDON, folks. UK. Britain. Other side of the Pond from The NY Times.
The NY Times did something akin to this to themselves years ago, and realized within a few years that their columnists plummeted from most-quoted status. Whereupon they backed off considerably.
My local smalltown newspaper's publisher prattles on endlessly about how un-broke his paywall model is and how it has to be that way or news won't survive. As a result, I google up equivalent stories when I need to share them. He's captaining the Titanic, IMHO. Tautologies and contradictions at every turn, mixed with a naive misunderstanding of copyright. Meanwhile, I *LIKE* newspapers & want to see them thrive. But I'm less sanguine that they will -- it's still looking like a train wreck in slo-mo.