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Buckyballs Detected In Space

Rhodin writes "Fullerenes, also known as buckminsterfullerenes or 'buckyballs,' were detected about 6,500 light years from Earth in the cosmic dust of Tc 1 (PDF; abstract), an object known as a planetary nebula. 'We found what are now the largest molecules known to exist in space,' said astronomer Jan Cami of the University of Western Ontario, Canada, and the SETI Institute in Mountain View, Calif. 'We are particularly excited because they have unique properties that make them important players for all sorts of physical and chemical processes going on in space.'" (More, below.) These results hark directly back to the experiments that originally identified Buckminsterfullerene, which mimicked the outer atmospheric chemistry of red giant carbon stars. Harry Kroto, who jointly won a Nobel Prize for this discovery in 1996, is excited by the findings' clarity. 'The spectrum is incredibly convincing,' the Florida State University academic said. 'I thought I would never be as convinced as I am. The fact that the four lines are there, and C70 is there, is just unbelievable. It's a spectacular paper.'"

33 of 117 comments (clear)

  1. Cool by mcvos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I thought the fact that these had to be explicitly manufactured and seemed to be a human-invented molecule meant that they'd never appear naturally in space.

    Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe.

    1. Re:Cool by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe

      Somewhere out there is an underfunded galaxy filled with old computers that I can't get permission to throw out?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    2. Re:Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe.

      Yet I'm sure somebody holds a patent for these molecules.

    3. Re:Cool by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I thought the fact that these had to be explicitly manufactured and seemed to be a human-invented molecule meant that they'd never appear naturally in space.

      Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe.

      Candle flame is loaded with Buckminsterfullerene. These molecules have been right under our noses for that long.

    4. Re:Cool by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Candle flame is loaded with Buckminsterfullerene. These molecules have been right under our noses for that long.

      Perhaps a more scientific method of detection than "sniffing fire" would have had better results earlier on.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    5. Re:Cool by twisteddk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the "news" is that this time they've been detected in space, where there may be less cnadle flames than there's room for ;)

      --
      --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
    6. Re:Cool by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Soot was just so ordinary no one ever bothered to distill the different molecules out of it, to see if any had unusual properties.

      C60 is just too big a fraction, with too distinct properties, to have been missed otherwise for so long.

    7. Re:Cool by coffii · · Score: 2, Funny

      Candle flame is loaded with Buckminsterfullerene. These molecules have been right under our noses for that long.

      You're telling me there's a bunch of aliens out there with candles? Shit, break out the nukes.

      --
      Bitter and twisted, DON'T ever FORGET the TWISTED
    8. Re:Cool by CarpetShark · · Score: 4, Funny

      Somewhere out there is an underfunded galaxy filled with old computers that I can't get permission to throw out?

      No, no, you have permission. Go ahead.

    9. Re:Cool by feidaykin · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe.

      Not the case for temperature. Scientists have cooled a piece of rhodium metal to 100 picokelvin. The coldest observed temperature in the universe is about 1K. I remember reading an article where some scientist joked that any region of space colder than what we've achieved in a laboratory would have to be in the laboratory of an alien civilization. ;)

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    10. Re:Cool by quantumghost · · Score: 4, Funny
      FLASH: Man sues Nature over patent infringement...

      Mr I. M. Atwit, lead council for Dewy, Suck'em, and Dry Corp headquartered in Topeka KS, was quoted as saying "Nature has finally overstepped her bounds by infringing on our copyright! We intend to prosecute this to the fullest extent of the law [of man]."

      Nature, unfortunately, could not be reached for comment.

      In unrelated news, NASA and several prominent astronomers today warned of an impending meteorite strike that was predicted to hit somewhere in the Mid-West of the US. The most like impact site was around Topeka, KS.

    11. Re:Cool by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

      As others have noted buckyballs are a significant component of common soot. They form naturally in almost any high temperature carbon vapor. The surprising thing is that they had been overlooked by scientists for so long.

      Apparently there are no lab conditions on earth that are not duplicated somewhere else in the universe.

      Actually there is a pretty easy example of conditions that are not duplicated anywhere in the universe (except perhaps within some alien scientist's lab). Science experiments can't even begin to compete with the natural universe on the high end, the bigger hotter faster high energy stuff. However in the laboratory we have nature beat cold in.... cold. Space is filled with thermal radiation from the big bang. This radiation has a temperature of about 2.7 degrees above absolute zero and it constantly shines from all directions. An object floating in the deepest emptiest intergalactic space will not cool below 2.7 degrees. In fact any object colder than that would be soon be warmed to at least 2.7 degrees because of the thermal radiation from every direction in space.

      A expanding gas cloud in space can cool below that temperature because a gas cools as it expands, but that cooling won't go very far. Background thermal radiation will shine into the expanding gas and quickly warm things back up.

      In the laboratory we can actively cool stuff. We have gotten temperatures down to a few billionths of a degree above absolute zero. We are pretty dang certain that these conditions have never existed in the history of the universe, unless some alien science lab beat us to it. At these temperatures you can achieve an entirely new state of matter called a Bose-Einstein condensate.

      A superfluid (sort of a liquid equivalent of a superconductor) is another example state of matter that has probably never existed outside a lab. Helium becomes a superfluid at about 2.1 degrees above zero. Expanding gaseous nebulae are known to cool below this temperature, however they would never have the pressure to maintain a fluid in the near vacuum of space.

      -

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    12. Re:Cool by locallyunscene · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This reminds me of a story I once heard(maybe a Fable, I'm not sure). There was a village that had the policy of euthanizing anyone that reached past a certain age so that the village would remain strong. A old woman was nearing this age when there appeared a threat to the village. A great conqueror descended upon them that they knew they could not defeat. The conqueror, wishing to take the village by peaceful means to save his men for other battles, sent a messenger proposing that he would give them 3 challenges. If they succeeded he would bypass their village. If they failed they must submit to his rule or be slaughtered. I don't remember the first two challenges, but needless to say the old woman's experience was called upon to pass them. The final challenge was to construct a rope of ash that could hold weight. Of course it was impossible for the weavers of the village to construct and no amount of the warriors' strength could press the ash together to form something cohesive. The village thought they were doomed so once again they went to the old lady because she had helped them through the previous two challenges. She told them to soak a normal rope is salt water and then burn it. This would caused the rope to retain its original shape and strength. The conqueror was confounded at the ashen rope, and the village was saved. From that point forward it let its citizens live to whatever ripe old age they wanted.

      I've never tried it myself, but I wonder if this is an ancient form of constructing bucky tubes.

    13. Re:Cool by dbraden · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think I spent way too much time tracking this down ;)

      I finally found a version of it in a Japanese folktale called The Wise Old Woman by Yoshiko Uchida. Here's a version of it that looks like it was formatted for a play, but at least it's an easy read: The Wise Old Woman.

      Interesting story, thank you!

  2. Dark matter? by captainpanic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We're still searching for dark matter, right?

    So, now we found yet another material that absorbs light. So that could mean that the stars we see actually burn brighter (and are more massive?) than we thought. And in addition, there is a material previously unknown to exist in space.

    Could is be possible that dark matter is just ordinary matter, made up of atoms and such, and that we just haven't found it yet because it absorbs the radiation we scan for?

    -- I admit that I'm no expert, so don't mod me down for stupidity. Just correct me instead, please.

    1. Re:Dark matter? by psone · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are several theoretical candidates for Dark Matter. Non-Baryonic Dark Matter (aka matter not made of quarks, protons, neutrons and not interacting with electrons and photons) is expected to contribute for the greater part to it. Fullerenes fall in the first category. Additionally, the observations of stars (gravitational interactions) are in accordance with the standard model and that pleads for the absence of Dark Matter in or around stars. However the cohesion or consistency of galaxies is not expectable if the only mass present in them comes from stars and stellar systems. That pleads for the presence of dark mater in the halo of galaxies and in clusters of galaxies.

    2. Re:Dark matter? by twisteddk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also not an expert. But if we eventually manage to find a molecule that can absorb energy without emitting it again in some form or other, that'd be pretty amazing from a chemistry standpoint. Our current undestanding of energy is that all energy input corresponds to a certain output. That is, energy may change form, but it may not cease to exist. this is generally also how we manage to identify molecules and objects, by measuring how they reflect radiation, or convert it to heat, mass etc.

      But certainly a molecule that can absorb radiation without leaking it again, would revolutionize nuclear waste storage and facilities, where currently excess materials are encased in glass, then stainless steel, then put into storage for 6-800 years before the decay is sufficient for the material to be reused as nuclear fuel. Throughout those 6-800 years emission can be detrimetal to your health, a case that ensures 100% absorption of the radiation would be excellent !

      That said, I doubt that is the case. I love the idea of it though. And I'm sure that in the future we will have a far better understanding of physics which will hopefully yield such bounties.

      --
      --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
  3. Cellulose Detected in Space, too by mhh5 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The molecular weight of cellulose in deep space might not surpass C70, but it *might* exceed C70... see one of the questions in this TED talk:
    http://blog.ted.com/2009/10/qa_with_garik_i.php

  4. We can detect tiny, molecules... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and tell what they are at a distance that take light slightly longer than our recorded history as a species to travel.

    Fuck yeah!

    (That is all)

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    1. Re:We can detect tiny, molecules... by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Preach it! It's at times like this that I like to break out the SCIENCE: it works, bitches shirt.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:We can detect tiny, molecules... by FuckingNickName · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We've decided we can do it because we assume the conclusion is correct, and we assume the conclusion is correct because we've decided we can do it. It's all too easy in astronomy and theoretical physics to go all Platonic and rejoice at something seductively beautiful rather than something with enough evidence.

      What if we are misinterpreting the results as referring to a combination of other signatures or combination fo sources, perhaps partially absorbed? What if we're hearing local noise? This is a uniquely sensitive telescope and results have not been duplicated.

  5. Actually by twisteddk · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, the C-60 has been known to exist (albeit in extremely limited number) in nature on earth. Fullerenes have later been found to exist also in very "short" chains, AFAIK down to like 20-30 atoms.
    The real challenge is making stuff like tubing in desired lengths and thickness. Though the ball that is the C-60 is also very intresting, because like some of the molecular medical delivery systems invested recently, you may be able to contain smaller molecules within. This is very helpfull for nano weaponry and medicines, where all you'd need is a molecular glue that will attach (only) to your target, a container (like the buckyball) something within the container, and some sort of trigger, as presumably the fulerenes are very very stable.

    --
    --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
    1. Re:Actually by Zocalo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      AFAIK down to like 20-30 atoms

      Given that a single molecule of C-60 contains 60 carbon atoms, you probably meant to put "molecules" there.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    2. Re:Actually by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Given that a single molecule of C-60 contains 60 carbon atoms, you probably meant to put "molecules" there.

      GP was referring to buckytubes.

    3. Re:Actually by Zocalo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, I know. As in they might be naturally found in lengths of 20-30 molecules of BMF and not 20-30 carbon atoms. Technically through, bucky tubes are not actually formed from a collection of bucky balls, but are actually molecules in their own right with a structure resembling a single bucky ball that has been split in half and had a cylinder of carbon atoms inserted at the split. In theory it should be possible to create bucky tubes of arbitrary length by repeating the structure of the cylindrical section, it's "just" a matter of working out how.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
  6. Re:hope they won't find... by SimonTheSoundMan · · Score: 4, Funny

    At least in space, nobody will be able to hear your vuvuzela.

  7. Re:SETI can't find aliens by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It is possible that aliens will make conclusions about our development of semiconductors by looking for the signature of LEDs and lasers in our night side light emissions, but would be in the dark about our biology. Photons are a great invention.
     

    In 1835, Auguste Comte, a prominent French philosopher, stated that humans would never be able to understand the chemical composition of stars. He was soon proved wrong. In the latter half of the 19th century, astronomers began to embrace two new techniques—spectroscopy and photography. Together they helped bring about a revolution in people's understanding of the cosmos. For the first time, scientists could investigate what the universe was made of. This was a major turning point in the development of cosmology, as astronomers were able to record and document not only where the stars were but what they were as well.

    link

  8. What? No Spaceballs jokes or references? by erroneus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Am I really that old?! Oh well...

    May da schwartz be witcha.

  9. Re:hope they won't find... by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

    it's just the farting of the Time Lords

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  10. Natural Buckyballs by Montrey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does this mean that there will be a new group of people calling for the use of "only all-natural, organic" buckyballs?

  11. Deep space, the new frontier... by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...for patent attorneys! Now they can start arguing if alien prior art exists about methods for synthetizing fullerene, thus voiding several patents. A good excuse for skyrocketing their bills.

  12. Re:hope they won't find... by Alsee · · Score: 2, Funny

    I suggest anyone blowing a vuvuzela be placed in the vacuum of space so we don't have to hear it.

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    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  13. Incorrect Geometrical Assumptions by Wdi · · Score: 2, Informative

    The interior of a buckyball (even the larger variants with C70+) is too small to hold any molecule of pharmacological interest. One or two metal ions, yes, even ammonia, methane and similar small molecules (all known), but nothing beyond that. The only payload with some potential usefulness are radioactive metal atoms for radiation therapy, but certainly not normal drugs.