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Microsoft Should Dump Middlemen, Build Own Phones

suraj.sun writes "Microsoft has a long and illustrious history of operating system sales. The model has served the company well on the PC, but if it wants to make money in the phone market, it needs to start thinking like a consumer electronics company and start making its own phones."

262 comments

  1. That could work like the xbox by Winckle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Given that the xbox has done rather well for them, but they'd be entering a market where cool is king. They would have to come up with some seriously strong designs.

    1. Re:That could work like the xbox by vwjeff · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I want to see a red ring of death on a phone.

    2. Re:That could work like the xbox by Slashidiot · · Score: 1

      Because in the gaming market cool has no weight whatsoever...

      --
      Tis women makes us love, Tis Love that makes us sad, Tis sadness makes us drink, And drinking makes us mad.
    3. Re:That could work like the xbox by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      It has weight, but the XBox isn't cool. The Wii is. XBox does well because it has some cool games and some good-but-not-cool features.

    4. Re:That could work like the xbox by Konster · · Score: 5, Funny

      RROD on the back and BSOD on the front.

      Very stylish!

    5. Re:That could work like the xbox by Zantac69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think someone said this already - but cool is king on phones but its a different cool. Functionality, sleek lines, good displays, powerful hardware - who has the sexy phones now? Who would they have to emulate?

      HTC?
      Motorola?
      Nokia?
      Samsung?

      is that it? Would M$ think about an aquisition for this? The only one that might be grabbable (in m opinion) is HTC. Just tossing that out there...I hope they dont...but it could be an interesting move buisnesswise - especially if they let HTC maintain other activities with Android in parallel.

      --
      1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
    6. Re:That could work like the xbox by Bertie · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, having to replace half of them because they overheated themselves to death has just done wonders for their bottom line.

    7. Re:That could work like the xbox by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Windows Media Extender + 2 TBs of DVD backups and TV shows + one less box hooked up to my TV = cool.

    8. Re:That could work like the xbox by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      It's cool if you're a geek. I like it. Watching TV is not mainstream cool though, and a vast collection of anything is typially considered a bit nerdy.

    9. Re:That could work like the xbox by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 4, Funny

      So they'll sink $4-5 billion building hardware, software, branding, and (presumably) a market/network? Yeah, maybe.

      Or it could be a Zune phone, replete of velvety brownness and the ability squirt.

      Actually, it would be fun to see them flop about in a costly and humiliating manner. Sure the Xbox has turned a profit for some select quarters but I reckon they're still down a few billion overall. Does anyone know how the Zune is fairing?

      I, for one, welcome Windows Live 7 Professional Phone Xtreme Crispy Chunky Ranch-Bacon. If it worked for Vista and Hotmail, well, they could work similar magic with a homegrown phone.

      (We can still make fun of Vista and Hotmail, right? And what the fuck is with those Hotmail ads? They make less sense than the Seinfeld ones.)

    10. Re:That could work like the xbox by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      But this is the problem - what is meant by "cool"?

      One could say the same of the mobile market - evidently things like fashion and "cool" are important, but it's unclear that who has it. For geeks round here, it's Apple (and to a lesser extent, Android) that seems "cool". But look at the mainstream, and it's RIM (in the US) and Nokia (worldwide), not to mention companies like LG, Samsung, Motorola. It's also not clear that Microsoft are incapable of doing something that the mainstream see as "cool" - again, it seems to be predominantly among geeks, rather than the mainstream, that mock Microsoft as not being "cool".

    11. Re:That could work like the xbox by isfry · · Score: 1

      I want to see a red ring of death on a phone.

      you mean Red Ringtone of Death...

    12. Re:That could work like the xbox by samkass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Given that the xbox has done rather well for them

      Only losing a couple million dollars is "rather well"? The XBox sells well because it's subsidized by the Office and Windows monopolies, but it's not exactly a profit center.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    13. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, that's not really true. That graph does not have an XBox division, the XBox is lumped in with "Entertainment and Devices" which would include the disaster that was Zune, and the money they sunk into things like Surface and Zen, neither of which generated any revenue. Not to mention the money they sunk into R&D for Windows Mobile 7 which has yet to come to market. Not to mention the fact that despite all of this, the "Entertainment and Devices" division did turn a profit in Fall of 09 according to that graph. Microsoft is turning a profit from the XBox, just (obviously) not as big of one as they turn from Windows and Office.

      And by the way, the sentence "The XBox sells well because it's subsidized by the Office and Windows monopolies" makes no fucking sense. A subsidy can help something turn a profit, it can't help something sell.

    14. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would see a red ring that would spell death for that phone. just not on the phone itself. You'd see it every time you looked in the mirror. The phone would run so hot it would leave a circular burn mark on your ear every time you used it.

    15. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Red Ray of Death http://www.dilbert.com/2010-07-23/

    16. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A subsidy can help something turn a profit, it can't help something sell.

      Nope. If a subsidy lowers the price of a product, more units will be sold. The classic example is government agricultural subsidies. They work in two ways: either direct payments to farmers, allowing them to sell their product for lower prices, or programs that buy agricultural products for stockpiling or distribution under controlled circumstances. The former increases sales, compensating farmers for lost profits. The latter also increases sales, but also results in increased profit.

      Subsidies are typically used where the profitability of a product is a secondary goal. In the case of agricultural subsidies, one can view it either as the protection of the domestic agricultural sector, or taking care of a constituent group that has significant political pull. In the case of a loss leader (as the XBox started out), the goal was to establish a market presence. The idea that the XBox is subsidized by more profitable Microsoft products is out of date, but historically accurate.

    17. Re:That could work like the xbox by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given that the xbox has done rather well for them, but they'd be entering a market where cool is king. They would have to come up with some seriously strong designs.

      How well has the Xbox done for them? They're only now turning a "profit" year to year and that ignores the hundreds of billions of money they've sunk into their entertainment division. Entertainment has lost Microsoft scads of money, there is NO way to view the Xbox or the 360 as a business success story.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:That could work like the xbox by jcr · · Score: 1, Troll

      Microsoft needs twenty more Halo-sized hit games for the Xbox to go profitable. I don't see it happening, frankly.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    19. Re:That could work like the xbox by wmac · · Score: 1

      Kindle itself does not produce profit for Amazon. It is also subsidized.

    20. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of those players make good looking phones. That's obe reason why Apple iPhone is so popular. Those guys are still building 90 phones. At least we now have Linux on a desktop (phone top) finally that is functionable.

    21. Re:That could work like the xbox by cjb658 · · Score: 1

      Given that the xbox has done rather well for them, but they'd be entering a market where cool is king. They would have to come up with some seriously strong designs.

      Yup, gotta overcome this problem.

    22. Re:That could work like the xbox by cjb658 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It kind of depends. Blackberry phones aren't "cool" but they are simple and do exactly what business users want (at least they used to, nowadays even the suits have realized they are limited devices).

      Microsoft devices have always gone after business customers. If they want to start targeting teenagers, then they'll have to "get cool."

    23. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that the xbox has done rather well for them, but they'd be entering a market where cool is king. They would have to come up with some seriously strong designs.

      Doing well in terms of units sold, but are they making money off of them yet? AFAIK, only Windows and Office are making them any money. All their entertainment and online stuff is losing cash.

    24. Re:That could work like the xbox by omar.sahal · · Score: 1

      But this is the problem - what is meant by "cool"?

      If you have to ask then you'll never know.
      Besides even the future needs time to build up, reaching a tipping point, to become the new main stream. Provided Apple and Android keep growing and changing the markets they are in, they will take over. Many other companies in the phone market only have the benefit of previous business (which is a big advantage). This is why they are big sellers due to familiarity from customers and suppliers alike.

    25. Re:That could work like the xbox by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      The XBox has worked well if you don't consider making a profit for years an acceptable business practice.

    26. Re:That could work like the xbox by GaratNW · · Score: 1

      So, using that graph.. E&D turned a profit 7 out of the 13 quarters listed. Maybe not stellar, but also not exactly the doom and gloom of most game industry companies. Could it be better? Sure. And... E&D is only subsidized in the sense they pull from the same money pool as all divisions in the company. Their profitability, or lack, is purely driven by their divisional P&Ls.

    27. Re:That could work like the xbox by Karlt1 · · Score: 1

      Given that the xbox has done rather well for them, but they'd be entering a market where cool is king. They would have to come up with some seriously strong designs.

      If by "doing well" you mean losing money almost every quarter since its inception....

    28. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      RROD on the back and BSOD on the front.

      WTF is that, a mullet for electronics?

    29. Re:That could work like the xbox by trooperer · · Score: 1

      Motorola is probably off the market, given the fact that Nokia is currently in the process of buying Motorola (the mobile division at least): http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66I24P20100719

    30. Re:That could work like the xbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RROD on the back and BSOD on the front.

      Very stylish!

      ...and IE Mobile can show the YSOD.

    31. Re:That could work like the xbox by mrops · · Score: 1

      They gotta remove the Microsoft Name and productize (if there is such a word) their devices.

      May be call it fune... or umm tune...no no, I got it, lets call it zune... That would make it successful.

    32. Re:That could work like the xbox by samkass · · Score: 1

      Maybe so, but Microsoft is competing against Apple, and my guess is Apple's graph for the iPod Touch profitability doesn't look anything like Microsoft's. That graph is what I would call "successful".

      --
      E pluribus unum
    33. Re:That could work like the xbox by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      YSOD on the front and BSOD on the back.

    34. Re:That could work like the xbox by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Microsoft-branded hardware has a track record of being pretty damn good. When they put their branding on mice/keyboards/game controllers, I've generally found those products to be well-designed and robust. They generally get enough market penetration that device support for anything unusual gets fast-tracked into the linux kernel.

      "It just works" has a coolness factor of its very own.

    35. Re:That could work like the xbox by Garabito · · Score: 1

      Motorola handset division is not going anywhere. What Nokia Siemens (Not Nokia, Nokia Siemens is a joint venture of Nokia and Siemens focused on networks) bought was the Network Operations division, not the handset division.

    36. Re:That could work like the xbox by trooperer · · Score: 1

      whoops, my bad. Next time I'll read TFA, I promise :)

    37. Re:That could work like the xbox by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Even with the 360 they are still deep in the red on the xbox. How is that doing well?

    38. Re:That could work like the xbox by mjwx · · Score: 1

      RROD on the back and BSOD on the front.

      Sigh, you dont get it at all.

      Blue is for desktop errors,
      Red is for gaming box errors,
      Mobile errors will have to be a different colour, green perhaps, Maybe the Green LED of Death if MS decides to include an external LED.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    39. Re:That could work like the xbox by Jeprey · · Score: 1

      Yeah, a $1B write-off for product failures seems like my idea of success also...

  2. In other news by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Microsoft's search for a viable business model continues.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:In other news by bidmead · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > Microsoft has a long and illustrious history of operating system sales. Illustrious? Oh, I see.... It's the sales that are illustrious. -- Chris

    2. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a rumor they already found one.

    3. Re:In other news by maxume · · Score: 1

      Selling Windows and Office is working fine. They are looking for viable ways to grow faster.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:In other news by ForexCoder · · Score: 1, Troll

      What happened to "Steal other people's ideas and implement them poorly?"

    5. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Personally, if I had a choice, I'd gladly take Microsoft's non-viable business model at $18bn profit in the last year more than I'd take any other technology company's as that's over double Apple's profits and nearly triple Google's profits.

      Microsoft's got a perfectly viable business model, such that it's still consistently slaughtering the competition in the technology market in terms of profit they make year on year- I think IBM is the next closest at around $12bn and HP 3rd at about $9bn, although I could be wrong, I've not been paying attention to all of them.

      The issue is simply that Microsoft is struggling to grow their market even more, not that they don't in fact make fuck loads of profit, and have a metric shit ton of assets and equity. The fact is it can do things like the Kin, the Zune, the XBox, and whether they flop or not is irrelevant when they're still pulling in more profit than any other technology company out there from the profits of their core business. If however one of their adventures does turn out to be a hit then great, they've widened the gap even more, if not, then, well, their lead in terms of profit is still pretty massive and even Apple and Google's resounding successes in comparison over the last decade haven't even come close to closing the gap. Unless Microsoft has a secret oil drilling operation that's going to explode due to poor maintenance in the gulf of Mexico soon then there's not too much that'll change that in the forseeable future. As a company, financially, they're still a behemoth, and are as solid as a rock.

    6. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but milking their OS and office suite monopolies brings them dump-trucks full of cash every day.

      Good thing too, a lesser company would have gone bust with that huge procession of turkeys and white elephants.

    7. Re:In other news by kyuubi42 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft turned $17.6 Billion in profit in 2009, they are 35th on the fortune 500. I think they know how to make a buck.

    8. Re:In other news by bravecanadian · · Score: 1

      This just goes to show you how out of touch slashdotters are with what an actual business model is...

      Microsoft is *very* successful.

      Like triple Google successful.

    9. Re:In other news by NatasRevol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Microsoft is a software company, therefore they have 90% profit on sales.
      Apple is a hardware company, therefore they have 40% profit on sales.

      That's why, in spite of their revenues being about the same, MSFT makes more profit.

      However, AAPL's revenue is going up at a MUCH greater rate that MSFT. AAPL will pass MSFT in revenue this next quarter, and probably pass them in profits in the next year.

      Where do you want to be?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    10. Re:In other news by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      fuck loads of profit, and have a metric shit ton of assets

      You are mixing your measurements. I'm pretty sure that "fuck load" is an Imperial measurement, and "metric shit ton" is by definition metric. Do you work for NASA, by any chance?

      Kidding aside, their marketshare, revenue, and profits are still huge, but they are less dominant than they once were. Furthermore, their "viable business model" boils down to:
      1) Make an inferior copy of existing technology.
      2) Flood the market with product and marketing (read: bullshit / FUD tactics).
      3) Pour money into it until it either sinks or floats.
      4) ???
      5) Profit!

      All that proves is that a company with sufficient market cap and cash reserves can run the table without producing anything truly innovative, and something tells me that they can't do that forever.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    11. Re:In other news by mgblst · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ms actually make money on each andoird deviCe sold, due to patents. That is a pretty good business model.

    12. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lots of companies have higher revenue but so what? Have you never heard the following saying?-

      Revenue is vanity
      Profit is sanity
      Cash is king

      If Microsoft is getting more profit from it's revenues then that means it has a better business model, and as Microsoft has both higher profits and more cash Apple's increase in revenue, like it's market cap, is largely meaningless. It'll only matter when Apple overtakes Microsoft in profit and equity and assets, until that point Microsoft is still the more solid business.

      To illustrate the point, Dell has a revenue of $53bn but a profit of only $1.4bn. By your logic the fact Dell has a revenue around $10bn higher than Apple it's a stronger company, but the profits tell a completely different story. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes Dell, despite it's high revenue is a better bet when it has such vastly lower profits and vastly lower assets and equity.

      Besides, your assertion that Apple's revenues being about the same as Microsoft isn't even close to true anyway, there's about a $20bn gap with Microsoft at $62bn and Apple at around $42bn and Microsoft's latest results showed them with more revenue than Apple too meaning Microsoft are in fact widening the gap.

      Even if Apple do close the revenue gap they still don't have the profits gap closed and still don't have the assets or equity of Microsoft.

      So as for where I want to be, well, I'd still rather be where Microsoft is- higher revenue, higher profits, higher equity, greater assets, and not even losing ground in those metrics.

      If I were you I'd get a little better understanding of what revenue actually is, what profit is, what equity and assets are and what they mean for a company. Further, you also seem to have a confused view of the importance of quarterly revenue, for example, you suggest that Apple might pass Microsoft in revenue next quarter, which is certainly a possibility, but by how much? maybe in the absolute best case by a couple of $bn but they've got a $20bn gap to close across the year so they'd need to jump at least $5bn ahead every quarter from their current position of being behind, and once they've done that they've got to go from turning $1 in 5 of revenue into profit, down to $1 in 3 into profit which is where Microsoft is, and then building equity and assets takes time. All this for them to even catch up with Microsoft, let alone overtake it.

    13. Re:In other news by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Kidding aside, their marketshare, revenue, and profits are still huge, but they are less dominant than they once were. Furthermore, their "viable business model" boils down to:
      1) Make an inferior copy of existing technology.
      2) Flood the market with product and marketing (read: bullshit / FUD tactics).
      3) Pour money into it until it either sinks or floats.
      4) ???
      5) Profit!

      If you're referring to the Xbox division:
      4) Release a new model before your competitors, dealing a blow that one of your competitors (Sony) is just now recovering from five years later.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    14. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 1

      I do generally agree with you, but I don't think that's entirely Microsoft's business model. They do have some innovations that do really well for them, Sharepoint is a fine example of a new product that netted them a lot of additional income.

      So the key for them is to basically use what you mention as their core business to keep them solid, and then try and branch out from there. The XBox is another example, and this is beginning to finally pay off- they have 25 million Gold subscribers at £40 a year (well slightly less as the UK cost is a little higher) but realistically that's most likely around $1 billion of pure profit, and Microsoft's last quarter results mentioned that for the first time content has overtaken subscription costs suggesting they're at least doubling that on XBox Live alone.

      The next attempts at increasing profit are Kinect and Windows Mobile 7, Bing is another possibility as it's certainly gaining share, but who knows, I'm not expecting them to be stellar performers personally, but as I say this is really all Microsoft has to do- just keep trying and trying because it's position in the market as you acknowledge isn't going anywhere any time soon because they're sufficiently big to sustain that.

      My underlying point really is that a lot of people think companies rise and fall much faster than they do here on Slashdot and I believe this stems from a profound misunderstanding of how much money Microsoft actually makes regardless of how shit it is. There seems to be this idea that because Slashdot hates Microsoft, Microsoft is a poor performing company, but as much as Slashdot might like that to be true, it's really not. We have to live with them for a while yet, and quite honestly, whilst I'd gladly see them fall normally, right now, I'm more scared that that would mean a rise of Apple who in recent years seem to have shown their true colours as being much more evil. Frankly I wish they'd both fuck off, but unfortunately wishful thinking wont achieve that, again, as much as Slashdot appears to think it does.

      Although, after Dell screwed me over with horrendous support charade over my faulty laptop which took 9 months for them to finally repair I did wish that they'd fuck off and die, and well, I seem to have got my wish there at least as they really have been performing abysmally in recent years.

      Hmm, maybe wishful thinking isn't such a bad option after all :)

    15. Re:In other news by NatasRevol · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And you should get a better understanding of hardware profits vs software profits. Because you don't really seem clued in at all on this.

      And look at the last quarter for MSFT (16.1B) vs AAPL (15.7B) in revenue. That's about the same in my book. And AAPL will be above MSFT next quarter.

      Also try looking at growth patterns. MSFT flat, AAPL up. Pick any time frame in the last 10 yrs or so.

      You go stick with MSFT. I'll take actual price increases with AAPL.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re:In other news by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Working fine for now. Operating systems are fast becoming a commodity. With things like ChromeOS and Ubuntu on cheap computers, the margins on Windows are being pushed right down. OEM Windows on a computer below a certain spec costs around $10. The sales volumes may make up for it, but they may also plateau because upgrade cycles are getting longer. My mother is still using a computer that I bought ten years ago. Even five years ago, the idea of using a ten-year-old computer, and it being fast enough for a typical user, was ludicrous.

      As for Office - it's an increasingly hard sell. I remember Word 2 being much better than the competition. I switched from it to ClarisWorks, because I was short on disk space (Word 2 took 10MB of my 60MB disk, ClarisWorks 1 took 5MB for the whole suite), but Word was better. Office 97 and 2000 was both improvements and introduced new features that people used. For most people, including a lot of corporate users, Office 2000, or even 97, did everything that they need. Encouraging them to upgrade is increasingly hard. OpenOffice.org is now a bit better than Office 97 - it's not as good as a recent version of MS Office, but it does all that a lot of people need and is free. This puts pressure on the price of Office.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "And you should get a better understanding of hardware profits vs software profits. Because you don't really seem clued in at all on this."

      I'm not sure what you're suggesting I don't understand? That software nets more profit? yes, as I said, I get this, which makes it a better business model for achieving profit. Reality doesn't give a discount to Apple and say "Oh well, okay, so you made less profit, that's okay, we understand the profit you did make was made on hardware so obviously we'll give you an extra star for this". The fact is, Apple makes far less profit.

      "And look at the last quarter for MSFT (16.1B) vs AAPL (15.7B) in revenue. That's about the same in my book. And AAPL will be above MSFT next quarter."

      So you can see the future can you? No really, you may turn out to be right, you have a good chance, but so what? Read what I said, they need to be $5bn ahead next quarter, and then maintain it for the whole year, and then convert a much larger portion of that from revenue to profit. They aint going to achieve that, no company in history has made such a big leap and Apple despite Steve Jobs' scattering of magic wont be able to achieve it either- it's a long slow process, they may overtake them eventually but it'll be years. You seem to go on about hardware vs. software profits, but again here's the point- Apple can't increase it's revenue to profit conversion when large amounts of it's profit are on hardware so they need a massive boost in software to catch up- that's nowhere in sight, Apple admitted themselves that iTunes and the app store isn't a good money spinner and barely breaks even.

      "Also try looking at growth patterns. MSFT flat, AAPL up. Pick any time frame in the last 10 yrs or so."

      You're good at making stuff up, I'll give you that. MS are increasing too, certainly not at the rate of Apple, but increasing and most definitely not flat- their last quarter was their record ever profit for example which you know, means an upwards trend.

      But here's where you're going wrong, you're assuming Apple can continue increasing at the rate they are indefinitely, that's a hell of an assumption to make. Rapid growth from the underdog is difficult but possible and Apple proved it as did Google, but the saying it's tough on top is very true- as Apple get bigger, they'll start to find things harder and will plateau off themselves.

    18. Re:In other news by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      How much do they make?

      Is it enough to even be reported in their annual statements?

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    19. Re:In other news by maxume · · Score: 1

      Between Vista and the economy it is hard to draw conclusions from the last few years, but they haven't exactly seen a downturn in those businesses (and they have both grown significantly in the last decade, even if you measure from some point where they had recovered from the dot com recession).

      And most businesses would love to print money the way those segments do (which means they can deal with a great deal of price pressure):

      http://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar09/10k_fr_dis.html

      (And I think Windows 7 is a pretty good answer to any problems Vista may have revealed (but really, I think that they made some tough/costly technical choices with Vista more than Vista was an absolute steaming crappile))

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    20. Re:In other news by toadlife · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We're not discussing Linux here.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    21. Re:In other news by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      so how many library of congresses can fit in a metric shit ton?

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    22. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      "Also try looking at growth patterns. MSFT flat, AAPL up. Pick any time frame in the last 10 yrs or so."
      You're good at making stuff up, I'll give you that.

      I expect he's referring to this:

      http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/charts/big.chart?symb=aapl&compidx=aaaaa%3A0&comp=MSFT&ma=0&maval=9&uf=0&lf=1&lf2=0&lf3=0&type=2&size=2&state=12&sid=609&style=320&time=13&freq=1&nosettings=1&rand=5013&mocktick=1

      AAPL up 1000% over a decade. MSFT down about 25% over the same period.

    23. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      4) Release a new model before your competitors, dealing a blow that one of your competitors (Sony) is just now recovering from five years later.

      And yet another competitor(Nintendo) released later, and took market leadership. Sony's problems are of their own making. They are not the result of being outplayed by Microsoft.

    24. Re:In other news by crmarvin42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here is where you are correct:

      – Profits are more important than Revenue
      – Profits are profits, doesn't matter whether they are from HW or SW
      – Microsoft has greater profits than Apple still
      – Both companies profits are increasing
      – Making assumptions about the future is risky

      However, I think that in the case of Apple vs. Microsoft predicting that Apple's profits will out grow Microsofts profits in the very near future is a pretty safe prediction. Here is one of the "Chart of the Day" charts showing quarterly profits from both companies. Microsofts profits are increasing in a roughly linear fashion. There is a certain amount of noise in their line, but I would expect a significant linear trend if we were to run the statistics on their quarterly revenue. For Apple on the other hand, their growth in profits is exponential.

      Whether you like their products or not, and many here on /. don't, it is obvious that Apple has captured the consumers imagination with their products in a way that no other PC manufacturer, or consumer electronics company has. All of Apples divisions are turning a profit, whereas only some of Microsofts are. Those they have that are profitable are insanely so, but they are wasting a lot of their effort on projects with little evidence of ever being money makers in their own right. Apple has managed, thus far, to pick only winners for those things that they bring to market thus wasting less of the profits they do make on ultimately futile R&D.

      The only way I see Apple's growth slowing appreciably is if they make a major misstep, which could happen. According to some the whole "Death Grip" issue is such a misstep. I don't believe it is bad enough, but if they make too many more their house of cards could come tumbling down. They have a growing macintosh division, the iPod (still dominant), iPhone (still desirable and growing), and iPad (Demand out pacing supply for the foreseeable future). Even the death grip doesn't appear to have affected sales that I've seen.

      The only way I see Microsoft's growth increasing is if they start doing more things right in divisions that are current break-even or loosing money. That means taking some of their R&D projects and turning them into profitable products people actually want. They've demonstrated over the last decade or so, that they are essentially incompetent at this translation step. You can argue that their vaporware announcements have been everything they claimed they are, but unless it can actually be purchased it is essentially pointless. Maybe Balmer will be replaced with someone that actually understand technology and can steward products from the R&D department to store shelves. Unfortunately though, I don't think that will happen soon. Balmer and all of the other board members at Microsoft know each other too well. And as you say, no one makes more money than Microsoft. However, how much money could they be making if they turned even 1/10th of their R&D projects into moderately successful commercial products?

      --
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    25. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Although, after Dell screwed me over with horrendous support charade over my faulty laptop which took 9 months for them to finally repair I did wish that they'd fuck off and die

      You should have bought Mac. Their customer service is consistently rated the best in the business. Sneaky "evil" bastards.

    26. Re:In other news by shugah · · Score: 1

      Great! Microsoft, the next patent troll.

      --
      If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
    27. Re:In other news by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      4) Release a new model before your competitors, dealing a blow that one of your competitors (Sony) is just now recovering from five years later.

      And yet another competitor(Nintendo) released later, and took market leadership. Sony's problems are of their own making. They are not the result of being outplayed by Microsoft.

      Nintendo isn't targeting the same market segment that Sony and Microsoft are, and has made huge money doing so. Both of its competitors are trying to horn in on its market, with the 360's Kinect and PS3's Move.

      It's extremely rare to see the same game appear on all 3 consoles. However, it is much more common to see titles that appear on both the 360 and PS3. On the hardware side, the 360 has been almost consistently priced lower than the PS3 was. The most significant upturn in the PS3's sales were immediately following the PS3 Slim's release, which is the only time that the two systems had price parity.

      That changed following E3 this year, when MS rolled out a new version of the 360. The new version changed the 120GB HDD to a 250GB HDD and moved the 802.11N addon into the system itself... for the same price they had been selling the 120GB model for. Which is the same price that the 120GB PS3 sells for and $50 less than the 250GB PS3.

      The PS3 would likely have sold better had there not been a system that has, for most of its life, been consistently priced lower that runs most of the same games.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    28. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      So when you said "competitors", you meant competitor. Excluding the market leader.

      Yes, I agree price was the reason PS3 struggled. And as I say, that was a problem of Sony's own making. PS3 was expensive on an unprecedented scale, rather than XBox 360 being inexpensive.

      Microsoft didn't outplay anyone by releasing early. They just had to release early because the original XBox was bad and needed replacing ASAP.

    29. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 1

      I think that's market cap no?

      The problem with share prices is that they can be terribly misleading- BP has taken a massive drop because of their oil spill for example, but that doesn't stop them being one of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world even with their asset sale and losses on the spill. As I say what really fundamentally matters in terms of the actual strength of a company above all is assets and equity followed by profits.

      Of course, having a market cap as high as Apple is still a good sign, it shows a lot of confidence in a company, but it far from tells the whole story or the strength of a company. It's also worth keeping in mind how quickly market cap can change too on the slightest bit of bad news.

    30. Re:In other news by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      So when you said "competitors", you meant competitor. Excluding the market leader.

      I didn't say "competitors," I said

      one of your competitors (Sony)

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    31. Re:In other news by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      AAPL up 1000% over a decade. MSFT down about 25% over the same period.

      Apple was a near-death joke of a company a decade ago. They had to be taken over by NeXT to have any viable 21st century software at all.

      So, they've come back from penny stock status alright. They can't do that again, though.

    32. Re:In other news by Xest · · Score: 1

      I do generally agree with you on Microsoft, they could certainly be doing much better, although I think you're being a little kind to Apple- they have had product failures, their server ranges don't do terribly well, the Apple TV was rather a flop and the MacBook Air didn't do particularly well for example, although you might be right in that they still turn a profit at least which means I suppose even there they can be called a success however small, but certainly not something that really generates worthwhile revenue.

      Fundamentally though I think Apple's problems will be in terms of expanding their market, the iPod isn't selling amazingly well anymore, largely because it's been replaced by the iPhone for many users. There's also some pretty solid signs that they're facing increased competition from Android and Nokia and Windows 7 phones aren't out the game yet- they could still come back and re-take a decent share of the smartphone market and the danger here for Apple is that with the new breed of phones any loss in phone sales wont see an increase again in iPods because people's new phones even if not Apple phones will do the trick more so than they used to. Further, Apple is somewhat restricted demographically too, it's largely limited to the West, the iPhone has effectively flopped in India, China and Africa, because Apple only has individual model of the iPhones and it's simply too expensive for these markets- this leaves Apple with a dilemma, does it just ignore those markets and hope to continue to simply out-compete the competition in existing markets, or does it consider changing it's business model and introduce a budget iPhone much like with the iPod Nano and Shuffle to compete in these markets?

      The iPad has potential but how much is yet to be seen, and again whether the competition will continue to fail to out-compete it in said market will be yet to be seen. Mac sales are increasing, but not really at a rate fast enough to matter compared to the profits garnered from their other divisions which is where the profit really comes from.

      I'm not sure how well iTunes and the App store are doing now, but only about 6 months ago Apple themselves stated these weren't core profit centres and were barely just breaking even.

      There's also the Jobs question, he wont be there forever, and have Apple as a company learnt enough this time round to cope without him?

      Apple certainly has a lot of strengths, but continued success as you can see is far from guaranteed, Apple has an awful lot of work cut out for it to maintain momentum over the next decade as they have over the last decade. Whether they do decide to start producing low end products, or do something drastic like sell Mac OS X for general PCs will be interesting as it'll let them ensure continued growth, but may also lead to them growing faster than they can reasonably handle (i.e. support issues for Mac OS X on generic hardware could become a problem in such a scenario). They've played the slowy but sure card so far, but as I say can it continue indefinitely in the face of increasing competition and rapidly shrinking room for growth in their target markets? At minimum they'll maintain their core fanbase and be able to keep selling the latest model to this fanbase each year meaning they're guaranteed to maintain their solid core of profits, but it's their method of continuing growth that'll be really interesting to watch.

    33. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, it's stock price.

    34. Re:In other news by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      "4) Release a new model before your competitors, dealing a blow that one of your competitors (Sony) is just now recovering from five years later."

      And again, Sony's problem was their own doing. PS3 would have been a hard sell at the price regardless of what Microsoft did. Microsoft did nothing clever here. They replaced Xbox early because Xbox was a poor console.

      XBox 360 is second out of three in the market because Wii is both novel and cheap, and because PS3 is/was too expensive. Not because MS happened to release first in this generation.

    35. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would say that from Microsoft's point of view, Apple's rapid revenue growth is more important than Apple's profit growth. Revenue is, after all, the stuff coming right of the of the pockets of We The Customers, and we are finite in number and finite in cash.

      Currently Apple's growth is partly at the expense of growth that Microsoft *could* have had - those iphone sales aren't microsoft phone sales, ipod sales aren't zune sales, and so on. There will come a point where continued increases in Apple revenue must come at the expense of Microsoft's current revenue going down. It's not *exactly* a zero-sum game, but it's likely close enough for zero sum strategies to come into play. The overall markets are growing, but if they're growing at 2%, only that 2% is up for grabs, after which you have to capture market share from someone else in order to grow more.

      The big threat Apple poses to Microsoft is that the markets Apple creates potentially decrease the need for Microsoft's core profitable divisions (OS and Office). At some point, if you're doing enough stuff on iphones/ipods/ipads, you may buy fewer Windows systems than you otherwise would have. If you end up doing your document creation/reading/management on an Apple device, that may lead to fewer Office sales too. Remember when Microsoft was terrified of web browsers replacing the need for their OS and Office suite? The growth of Apple and Google is that exact same threat, manifesting as hardware in Apple's case. All this money that Apple and Google are making is basically funding their inroads into Microsoft's core.

    36. Re:In other news by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      And again, Sony's problem was their own doing. PS3 would have been a hard sell at the price regardless of what Microsoft did. Microsoft did nothing clever here. They replaced Xbox early because Xbox was a poor console.

      XBox 360 is second out of three in the market because Wii is both novel and cheap, and because PS3 is/was too expensive. Not because MS happened to release first in this generation.

      Except that MS is continuing to trounce the PS3, despite PS3 price drops. Since both are approximately half the price they were when they came out, why is that? Oh right... one console is still "cheaper" (or at the moment has a better bang for your buck) than the other.

      Nintendo continues to trounce the 360 because it targets a different market. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the Wii's marketshare is in decline as the casual market becomes satiated. That would also explain why Nintendo is trying to target a different market... by releasing new games in all its old franchises over the next year, starting with the already released Super Mario Galaxy 2, and proceeding with Metroid: Other M in September, and Zelda: Skyward Sword next year.

      (Side note: Skyward Sword is going to be the first Zelda game I refuse to buy. I hated the controls in the Wii version of Twilight Princess, I'm not about to subject myself to ones that are arguably more irritating thanks to the Wii Motion Plus.)

      Oh, did I mention that I own all 3 consoles? Granted, I only bought two of them... I inherited the third when my brother passed away in 2009. I could let you guess which ones I bought, but I'll just say it: I bought the Wii and PS3, and inherited the Xbox 360. Which I'm assuming is different than you would have guessed.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    37. Re:In other news by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Apple is a hardware company, therefore they have 40% profit on sales.

      Apple is a marketing company, Almost all of their software is either ripped from Open Source or acquired by buying up companies (Fingerworks being the biggest example). All of their manufacturing and testing is outsourced to china as well as most of the design (Foxconn designs the circuit board, ARM designs the proc). The first lost Iphone4 prototype was lost in China, the worker killed himself over it (note, that had more to do with Asian culture, not Apples oppressiveness although that is up there). All Cupertino does is make ads and own trademarks.

      The fact you cant recognise any of this and still think they are a hardware company is evidence that they are a quite successful marketing company.

      The reason that Microsoft makes more rev on it's products are because they dont outsource as much as Apple and can amortise the cost of the development over a pre-determined life cycle. 90% rev (a bit rich, I'd say 60-70%) is done by taking the cost of development and spreading it over 3 years, otherwise it will be something like 20% rev for year 1 and 99% rev for years 2 and 3. MS have very good accountants, not dodgy ones like Hollywood (it's the lawyers at MS who make them dodgy).

      --
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    38. Re:In other news by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      One the riched companies in the world doesn't have a business model LOLLOOLLO!

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    39. Re:In other news by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      apple is a hardware design sort of company, it's not "made in california". as long as they don't run their own plants they're not a manufacturing company either.

      AAPL is way overrated on future expansion, on stock-rate. buy intel,the next foxconn etc if you want to "be in it", ms has a very solid revenue base, apples is more volatile and disposable income dependent. apple has plenty of theoretical growth - but that's because the non apple market is still so big in comparision.

      now, ms is very unlikely to produce their own radio chips, their own chip fabrication plants or such. that is out of question, so they'd become a phone assembler if they became a manufacturer. they probably have some non-branded device prototypes and such floating around, which they probably bought from someone like htc - that doesn't make them a manufacturer. hardly anyone considers imate a manufacturer because all they had was rebranded htc's.

      should ms drop the middleman? and take the huge operating cost, personnel and logistic problems responsibilities leading them to a siemens-mobile sized hole? maybe, kind of like should bosch produce entire engines? bad analogy perhaps, but closer to base than what one might think first. I don't think they want to duplicate mistakes of some big asian companies two decades ago.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    40. Re:In other news by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      their server ranges don't do terribly well, the Apple TV was rather a flop and the MacBook Air didn't do particularly well for example, although you might be right in that they still turn a profit at least which means I suppose even there they can be called a success however small, but certainly not something that really generates worthwhile revenue.

      I agree that none of these are defining their relative market,s but none of them appear to be losing money. Also, none of these have been major focuses of Apple's attention. Not necessarily saying that they'd do better if Apple (Jobs) loved them more, but that what they do focus their attention and profits on all have turned into big profit centers. Microsoft OTOH has spend a lot of their time, attention and money on the entertainment division and for what?

      – A game station that is respectable, but barely above break even after all these years (I own an original Xbox).
      – A music player that is still best compared to the iPod of 2 to 3 years ago (only ever seen one of them in person).
      – A tween targeted phone that was on the market for a total of a couple of months before they pulled it.

      the iPod isn't selling amazingly well anymore

      According to Apples Q3 2010 conference call iPod touch sales are up 48% from the same quarter last year, and the iPod still has over 70% market share. If the iPod market isn't growing faster, its probably due to market saturation or a shrinking market, which will affect everyone in that space, including Microsoft.

      There's also some pretty solid signs that they're facing increased competition from Android and Nokia and Windows 7 phones aren't out the game yet- they could still come back and re-take a decent share of the smartphone market and the danger here for Apple is that with the new breed of phones any loss in phone sales wont see an increase again in iPods because people's new phones even if not Apple phones will do the trick more so than they used to.

      You can make an argument for Android, it'd be hard to defend that argument for Nokia, and until it's actually released Windows 7 is vaporware. All the reviews I've read of the pre-release windows 7 phone (including one by a reviewer that original raved about its potential) is that it is comparable to iOS 1.0 at best and sucks donkey balls at worst. Now, maybe Microsoft will polish that turd enough to make it a big hit. Stranger things have happened. However, as I pointed out before Microsoft has a horrible track record with this kind of maneuver (It could be freudian that I original misspelled maneuver as manure) in the consumer electronics market. Also, as I pointed out above, the iPod is still doing very well despite your impressions.

      Further, Apple is somewhat restricted demographically too, it's largely limited to the West, the iPhone has effectively flopped in India, China and Africa, because Apple only has individual model of the iPhones and it's simply too expensive for these markets- this leaves Apple with a dilemma, does it just ignore those markets and hope to continue to simply out-compete the competition in existing markets, or does it consider changing it's business model and introduce a budget iPhone much like with the iPod Nano and Shuffle to compete in these markets?

      News that Apple has flopped in India is exactly that, News to me. Do you have a citation? Not being snarky, just looking to see what I may have missed. According to the same Q3 conference call I referenced earlier Apple is seeing strong growth in Asia, Europe, and Japan and Asia generally includes both India and China. With regards to China specifically, the reasons I've s

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      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
  3. "Microsoft should..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    This is a dumb opinion piece from no one important. I don't see why it's here. :/

    1. Re:"Microsoft should..." by larry+bagina · · Score: 5, Funny

      I remember when dumb ideas from unimportant losers was reserved for the comment section.

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    2. Re:"Microsoft should..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the beginning, that was the province of the editors.

    3. Re:"Microsoft should..." by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      This is a dumb opinion piece from no one important. I don't see why it's here. :/

      Gee, I wonder. Why would Slashdot, an ad-supported site, post a silly article containing two different topics people are opinionated about?

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  4. Great... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just what we need -- a Microsoft apps store.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:Great... by JimboG · · Score: 1

      ... There's a service pack and 4 hotfixes for that.

    2. Re:Great... by voidptr · · Score: 1

      That's already coming in Windows Phone 7, whether they build the hardware or not.

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    3. Re:Great... by WankersRevenge · · Score: 1

      Hell, I can live with their app store. It's their hardware that gives me night sweats.

    4. Re:Great... by HopefulIntern · · Score: 2, Funny

      Does anyone else think "Windows Phone 7" sounds really clunky and weird?

      Why not "Windows7 Phone", or "Mobile7" or something? "Windows Phone 7" just seems like a tonguetwister, or a haiku at best:

      Windows Phone 7
      Why do I even bother?
      I am not impressed.

    5. Re:Great... by wmac · · Score: 1

      Because "windows 7" is a totally different thing. Now if you call it Windows7 phone, one might think it is the same Windows7 small sized for phone.

    6. Re:Great... by unix1 · · Score: 1

      I'm just wondering how the marketing is supposed to work out:

      Here we have:

      - iPhones
      - Blackberry phones (or Blackberries)
      - Android phones

      and here we have:

      - Windows Phone 7 phones?
      - Windows Phone 7s?
      - Phones with Windows Phone 7?
      - Windows Phone System 7 Phone with 7 phones and system with 7 windows Phone?

    7. Re:Great... by shugah · · Score: 1

      Windows 7 and small sized do not belong in the same sentence.

      --
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    8. Re:Great... by nschubach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What bugs me is calling it Windows. From what I've seen, there are no "Windows" in Windows Phone 7.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    9. Re:Great... by vlueboy · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Now, let's move all the joking aside for some insight...

      MS loves changing naming trends and follows them closely. Remember that they were the people bringing you Windows 3.0 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 2000. Millenium Edition was another way to capitalize on Y2K, even if the OS failed. MS also realized "Windows 2001" would have been a bad name... they knew MacOS 10 was coming out, and Apple's use of an X in the name was promptly copied into Windows "XP."

      Eventually the use of creative names like "Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard" gave MS the brilliant idea that they should drop long names like Millenium Edition, in favor of the two syllables heard in Vista. Coincidentally, since that last one flopped big time, they found that Windows 7 could be a temp return to numbers AND a two-syllable name.

      What is annoying is that they could not name the phone "Microsoft Phone" to keep it short, and chose to just use Windows since it's their most recognizable product's name. Remember that others (Google [Earth|Mail|Chrome OS|Maps]) have done so with their trademarks. But adding the Seven also gives people the impression that MS has a successful product line of prior Windows Phones from 1.0 thru 6.0. Marketting is interesting, even if it's sometimes pointless when it comes to actual product usability and to the John Doe choices for nicknames. Look at "BB" for Blackberry

  5. Much like Hyper-V... by gimmebeer · · Score: 1, Informative

    ...they're too far behind to be viable in this market. Just give it up and stick with servers MS.

    1. Re:Much like Hyper-V... by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Riiight. Because I'm sure VMWare is in no way worried about Hyper-V, amirite?

    2. Re:Much like Hyper-V... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      It should not be. KVM is a far bigger threat what with all the free cloud hosting resources for it. Hyper-V is the bastard child of Xen and Windows and it shows it.

  6. Ehr, no. by miffo.swe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft do not have engineering talent nor software talents to pull something like that off, especially not in management. No matter how good of a phone the grunts make, management will kill its potential. It has happened countless of times before and it will happen again.

    Xbox is not a success and while now making modest profits it has lots and lots of investments to recoup before giving any payment on the money spent. Its an utter failure up until today and if nothing ground breaking happens it will keep on being a third rate console.

    The only way Microsoft could succeed is to break out a mobile team and totally isolate it from any managment and Microsoft itself. Even when they buy an excellent and complete product like Danger they still manages to wipe it off the planet my mismanagement.

    Im also not so sure being a top down shop like Apple is good in the long run. Those kinds of companies tend to stiffen up and become stale and slow pretty fast when given enough market share.

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    1. Re:Ehr, no. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Microsoft do not have engineering talent nor software talents to pull something like that off

      Where the hell did you get that from? Microsoft has plenty of programming talent, and they pay quite a lot for it. The problems are primarily in management (see: Vista).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Ehr, no. by the_womble · · Score: 1

      Programming talent, yes, but phones require hardware engineering and design talent as well. Do they have that? They have a hardware business, but they do not, AFAIK, make any mobile devices.

      The rest of the GP's points seem entirely reasonable.

    3. Re:Ehr, no. by gimmebeer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's not to say they don't have programming talent, that's a given. What I'm getting at is that MS tends to enter markets that already have cut and dried leaders, and their attempts to catch up from years behind the curve give their products a distinct feeling of inferiority. They may catch up to Android and Apple, but it'll take a while for the stigma of a "windows phone" to go away.

    4. Re:Ehr, no. by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      What I'm getting at is that MS tends to enter markets that already have cut and dried leaders, and their attempts to catch up from years behind the curve give their products a distinct feeling of inferiority. They may catch up to Android and Apple

      But the cut and dried leaders in phones are the likes of Nokia, RIM, along with many other companies like Samsung, LG, Motorola - and it's Google and Apple that entered as the new guys, and are playing catch-up (in Apple's case, "from years behind the curve" - 3G, Java, Flash, video recording, MMS, copy/paste, multitasking, etc). If they can do it, I don't see why this is an impossible problem for Microsoft.

      I've yet to see evidence that Windows has a "stigma" outside of the geek world.

    5. Re:Ehr, no. by Winckle · · Score: 1

      Well they make the Zune, and that's a mobile device. Yeah...

    6. Re:Ehr, no. by RKThoadan · · Score: 1

      As far as I'm concerned MS made the best pointing device ever designed, the Trackball Explorer. Then again, they don't make it anymore. They definitely have the capability. Management usually messes it up royally, but you can't actually rely on that.

    7. Re:Ehr, no. by wmac · · Score: 1

      Then who has the talent? :D

      Hallo, they own 80% of the PC software market.

    8. Re:Ehr, no. by mark72005 · · Score: 1

      They've already made comments like, "Windows Phone 7 will be an ad serving machine".

      http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/212394.asp

      This will kill the potential if nothing else. Who wants one of those?

    9. Re:Ehr, no. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      They should bring the same technical expertise they used in the Xbox to cell phones. That would give a new meaning to "Red Ring of Death".

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    10. Re:Ehr, no. by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      I've yet to see evidence that Windows has a "stigma" outside of the geek world.

      You don't know any Mac users?

      I find that hard to believe.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    11. Re:Ehr, no. by SethJohnson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They've already made comments like, "Windows Phone 7 will be an ad serving machine". http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/212394.asp

      Wow. That is an astonishingly-bad piece of messaging. Their corporate perspective truly is warped by their decades-long desktop monopoly. This is where the monopoly actually hinders their ability to develop realistic marketing strategies.

      Everything I'm hearing from MS these days assumes defacto widespread consumer adoption of their forthcoming products. In this case, Kostas Mallios, Microsoft's general manager for Strategy and Business Development, was allowed to put the cart before the horse and give a presentation at an advertising convention about Windows 7 Phone subjecting their captive audience to push advertising. I suppose they were desperate to woo these ad execs away from iAd & Google's Admob, but they're really forgetting the priority interest in this equation: please the consumer. Like so many other of their blunders, Microsoft is reducing the end-user experience to benefit their business interests. They just assume they can get away with it because they assume a monopoly position in the category. Whoops!

    12. Re:Ehr, no. by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You should be modded into oblivion for including Flash on your list. There isn't a single mainstream phone on the market that has a non-beta Flash player. That Apple refuses to allow the hypothetical player into the App Store does not in any way mean they are "behind the curve".

    13. Re:Ehr, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Zune HD is a wonderful piece of hardware + software . It just came too late in the game but it proves that Microsoft has the engineering talent to make a great device and software.

    14. Re:Ehr, no. by SpryGuy · · Score: 1

      I think the Zune HD is a counterpoint to your argument. It's a pretty nice piece of hardware AND software.

      What MS really needs to do short-term is to create a Zune HD 2 which is basically a WP7 device without the phone (including the camera), compatable with all apps for the WP7 devices out there (once everything is released of course).

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    15. Re:Ehr, no. by shugah · · Score: 1

      Thanks Steve. Say what happened the first time Apple tried to lock down their hardware and abuse developers. I think they lost a bit of market share.

      --
      If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
    16. Re:Ehr, no. by shugah · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's programming talent isn't really deep with developers experienced with writing tight, efficient, real time, embedded, re-entrant applications. But the same could be said for Apple and Google.

      --
      If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
    17. Re:Ehr, no. by toriver · · Score: 1

      - 3G was added when there was a proper market for it
      - Java on phones is a shitty subset of what you get on the desktop, with vendor-specific extensions added as band-aids to actually make it useful.
      - Flash is for Adobe fanbois, mostly used for ads, broken website navigation and other battery-eating stuff, with an inconvenient workaround for the lack of haver on non-mouse-pointer interfaces. Better off without it, except for the army of Flash programmers who might need to learn something new.
      - Video recording - not that common in phones anyway before iPhone got it too
      - MMS - poor man's email, complaining that a fully-featured email phone lacked MMS is like complaining that a modern computer lacks a Centronics printer port.
      - copy/paste - was added to iOS when they found a proper way of doing it. You see, it is not about doing things first.
      - multitasking? In what sense? Having random apps running stuff in the background, thus necessitating a mechanism to kill off the renegades when your average user cannot fathom why their game crashes almost immediately because there is too little RAM available? The iOS approach of supporting a useful set of background services (music, VoIP etc.) is better for the end user.

      Windows is a boon to the thousands offering support assistance for the unfriendly mess.

    18. Re:Ehr, no. by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Mac users, thought not often referred to as 'geeks' live in a special geek ghetto.

      It's so fash there.

    19. Re:Ehr, no. by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Say what happened the first time Apple tried to lock down their hardware and abuse developers. I think they lost a bit of market share.

      Wouldn't that have been in 1984?

    20. Re:Ehr, no. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Microsoft do not have engineering talent nor software talents to pull something like that off, especially not in management. No matter how good of a phone the grunts make, management will kill its potential. It has happened countless of times before and it will happen again.

      So Microsoft will do what most companies in this situation do. Buy the hardware off the shelf and install the software. This is what Google did with the Nexus One because it was in the same position. Internally the Nexus One is practically identical to the HTC Desire.

      MS has a history of doing this, right back to the 80's when they used off the shelf IBM parts to make a market for MS DOS.

      But MS wont do this because MS's mobile business model has been to license their product to third parties.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  7. Great Idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Worked for Goo... wait, what? Oh, nevermind.

    1. Re:Great Idea! by Azuaron · · Score: 1

      Worked for Goo... wait, what? Oh, nevermind.

      Yeah, that was my first thought.

      --
      I'm a psychologist (amongst other things).
    2. Re:Great Idea! by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      When did Google build their own phone? Because if you're referring to the Nexus One, HTC made it.

    3. Re:Great Idea! by HuguesT · · Score: 0, Redundant
  8. Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Fraggy_the_undead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... and failed spectacularly?
    And seeing how the "make the OS, leave making the phone (mostly) to others" business model seems to be working rather well for Google, I don't see, why it shouldn't for Microsoft.

    1. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by ArtDent · · Score: 1

      How about *because* it's working so well for Google?

      I presume Microsoft would like to charge something for their operating system?

    2. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Kin was a purchased company called Danger, Inc which was actually co-founded by Andy Rubin who is over Android Development.

    3. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative
      Yes, but they should still do it because Peter Bright, the author of the article, is a multi-multi-billionaire who made his money in consumer electronics. Wait, that not right, his bio tells us:

      Peter Bright dropped out of university after about five minutes to work as a programmer. He now lives in London, where he enjoys trolling, reading 4chan, gorging on burritos, and musing about the future of Microsoft.

      So, never mind. He's just another Internet person with an opinion which isn't backed up by either knowledge or experience.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    4. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Well as the article points out, it's already working for Google. Has been for a couple years now. Android is free (gratis) which I doubt the MS OS will be so that saves money to the OEM, It's customizable which the MS OS won't be, and it entrenched which the MS OS can't be. I think the author has a point here.

      Right now the consumer smartphone market is essentially divided between Android and iPhone in the US (Note, the *consumer* and the *US* before you flame please). iPhone is the vertically integrated, what you see is what you get, we control the horizontal and the vertical, smartphone (Again, before the flames, I use a 3GS. I like it. Noting wrong with vertical integration as long as you know what you're getting). Android is the open, varied, commodity smartphone. It appears on handsets more advance than the best iPhone and on pieces of crap that can barely make phone calls. Microsoft appears to be trying to leverage an "in between" model that they hope will have all the advantages of both models.

      The problem is that they're leaning towards Apple's model in every important way except how they plan to make money. Microsoft makes a ton of money off of Windows/Office because they sell millions and millions of copies. It seems unlikely (at this point) that they'll sell millions and million of phone licenses. It's a growth industry, sure. In twenty years smartphones might be like computers where nearly everyone has one and making 20 bucks a head on each sales is hugely profitable. Not now though, and Microsoft is no longer a lean little company that can afford to ride a 20 year wave waiting for the payoff.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    5. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Danger was purchased by MS and tasked to build the kin. It wasn't a project that they bought fully featured like google did with android. The Kin was fully developed form concept to launch while the former Danger employees were under microsoft. Engadget has the whole scoop of internal politicking at MS that led the the demise of pink/kin if you want more of the details. BUt win7 phone is a go, they would be really dumb to change directions, yet again and go it alone. They've already made too many changes in plans that have lead them way behind.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    6. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Kin's hardware looked pretty cute but the software was horrible. With MS it's usually the other way around. Articles on Kin suggest the team was hobbled by Windows CE, morale was low and corporate infighting meant they were denied the support they needed to make it succeed. I expect if Windows Mobile 7 had actually been ready for Kin that it would have been a great deal better as a device.

    7. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Steauengeglase · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because MS will go out of their way to get you to use Exchange, Sharepoint, Outlook, etc.
      Google on the other hand will go out of their way to get you to use the Internet.

    8. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. His bio really says that. I thought you were kidding.

      So Ars Technica is reduced to hiring b-tards as writers? This article says a lot more about them than it does Microsoft.

    9. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by stephanruby · · Score: 3, Informative
    10. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Mr_Silver · · Score: 1

      And seeing how the "make the OS, leave making the phone (mostly) to others" business model seems to be working rather well for Google, I don't see, why it shouldn't for Microsoft.

      It seems to be right now but, at the same time, I cannot help thinking that they are heading down the same line as Windows Mobile. You've got handset manufacturers taking the stock Android UI and then pimping it to make it "better". As a result we have HTC's Sense (which I've complained about before as they've added swathes of new bugs not on other Android devices - not to mention a completely incompatible new widget format), Motorola's MotoBlur which is (unsurprisingly) ugly and Samsung throwing their own (poor) UI on top too.

      Next you have the network operators adding cruft, turning off functionality and loading applications onto the device which cannot be unloaded.

      So now you're in a situation where when the next version of Android comes up, everyone has to sit around and wait for each of the vendors to update their phone and then the carriers to accredit it. You may dislike the Apple eco-system, but when an iOS update comes up, everyone generally gets it at the same time. With Android, Samsung owners may get it before HTC owners who get it before HTC owners on Network X because they haven't accredited it in time.

      Finally, you've got people who think that the HTC experience is Android. They don't realise that it's actually a lot of HTC's pimping. I see the press articles in our papers talking about "Google launching a new phone" or "Microsoft launching a new phone" only to find it's actually HTC.

      Palm was the phone that sat in the middle. Slick UI, no handset manufacturer cruft added, no operator interference and when the updates came everyone got them and yet you could still install applications on them that neither the operator or Palm approved of. The problem was that the hardware sucked and the world is moving away from smart-phones with a physical keyboard (despite how much people on /. prefer them). If HP have any sense, they'll kill the physical keyboard, optimise the software and stick it on some beautiful hardware that shows it off to the fullest.

      I agree that Microsoft should make a play for this arena. If they don't then they are going to have to come up with a way to prevent others from adding their own "value" and ensure that their product updates are frequent and available to all in a timely fashion.

      They've seen how Apple operate and don't have any qualms about copying - so why not take the best bits and leave the rest?

      --
      Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    11. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Mr_Silver · · Score: 1

      I agree that Microsoft should make a play for this arena. If they don't then they are going to have to come up with a way to prevent others from adding their own "value" and ensure that their product updates are frequent and available to all in a timely fashion.

      Ack, just remembered that they're doing this by locking down the software. Hmmm, in which case I'm not really sure how excited a handset manufacturer is going to be about an OS they cannot "enhance" to provide extra value.

      I'm sure that given a choice, HTC would rather they sold more Android phones with the HTC experience than Windows 7 phones with the Microsoft experience - even if the latter turned out to be better.

      --
      Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    12. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by DrPizza · · Score: 5, Funny

      I might not be a multi-billionaire.

      But I also didn't buy Danger for $500M, run it into the ground, and then post a $240M write-off last quarter for KIN.

      So I must be doing something right, I guess.

      Microsoft may be successful. Microsoft's phone efforts are not.

    13. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that's right, Google doesn't care whether or not you use their apps or search engine or look at their ads. That kind of synergy hasn't crossed their minds at all. /s

    14. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      The Kin was a purchased company called Danger, Inc which was actually co-founded by Andy Rubin who is over Android Development.

      That's an inaccurate history. Danger was a company that made phones that many teenagers used. They were called Sidekicks because T-Mobile gave them that name even though the model was actually the Hiptop. MS purchased Danger in 2008 to get a head start in phone development. The plan was to build the next generation Sidekick and it was called Project Pink. After two years of development, the Kin was released and discontinued after two months.

      Now what went wrong? Rumors are that there was in-fighting among the two phone groups: Win7 Phone and Pink. The Win7 manager refused to divert any resources to help Pink thus Pink had to code it all themselves. What isn't a rumor is that Danger based their OS and apps on Java. MS, being MS, could not allow that to continue. Thus they changed the phones to use Windows CE. That kind of change and the resource situation set them back at least 18 months which is a long time in cell phone lifetime.

      Originally MS had a deal with Verizon to allow them cheaper data plans. But MS couldn't deliver the phone in 6 months as originally agreed. By the time the Kin was released 18 months late, Verizon didn't give them the cheap data rate.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    15. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Ah, that explains why it's impossible to remove the gmail app from my Android phone. Or even to remove your gmail credentials once you've entered them, without resetting the entire phone.

      Oh wait, no, I guess it actually explains that Google wants to lock-in people to their services as much as Microsoft wants to, and you're completely wrong.

    16. Re:Hasn't Microsoft just done this with the Kin... by Don+Giovanni · · Score: 0

      hey at least there phones make great little WiFi network range testers with MiniStumbler!

      --
      P2P Anonymous Distributed Web Search: http://www.yacy.net/
  9. Fatal exception error! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Your call cannot be completed. The number you have dialed is not on a Microsoft-supported phone! Press 1 to report the issue to Microsoft. Press 2 for technical information about this error. Press 3 to hear these options again. Or press 0 now to speak to a Microsoft technical support representative!

  10. Trying to be Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are trying to exert the same control over the user experience that Apple does, but without making the hardware themselves. This might have worked five years ago - maybe even two years ago - but why would the hardware vendors (not to mention carriers) sign on for a new platform over which they have no control? Android is out there, which gives them the freedom to customize the phones to their hearts' content. For those that prefer the vertically integrated experience, there's Apple. Going to be tough to carve out a market niche, unless there is a compelling feature. I will be surprised if the "Windows" name is enough.

    1. Re:Trying to be Apple by Hal_Porter · · Score: 0

      I think there's an argument that they should have an "Apple like" product which they do in house and a "Windows Mobile" like OS they license to third parties.

      Right now they're trying to replace Windows Mobile 6.5 - which runs Pleco very well with Windows Phone 7 which probably won't ever.

      It would make more sense to have Windows Phone 7 as their internal Apple like (i.e. locked down but slick) product and keep Windows Mobile going for people that have software for it they want to keep using.

      If they really do replace the WinMo6.5 with WinPhone 7 there's a serious chance that it will be rejected by the sort of people who buy iPhones (why not stick just buy an iPhone?) and the sort of people who'd have bought a Windows Mobile Device. Why buy a phone which won't run your old software. In fact if you look at the Pleco site the software will work on an iPhone. The developers are fairly irritated by the whole thing

      http://www.plecoforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=18657#p18657

      I'm done paying for mobile platform/carrier specific apps. If my need is critical enough to spend real money on (like the $100 for Pleco) I'll buy the best app I can find for Windows 7 desktop and just run it on one of the W7 tablet/hand-held devices coming out in the future giving me long-term investment protection. What I won't do again is invest in an application where there's a likelihood support for my platform will be dropped because of the ever-changing state of the mobile phone market, especially when it forces me to choose both a new hardware vendor and potentially lock into an undesirable wireless carrier. At least on Windows I know my app will work essentially forever.

      I certainly understand your frustration - it's 10x worse on this end, I'd much much rather have spent the last year-and-a-half working on adding features on WM than rewriting the same darn program again for a different platform (or possibly two). Investing $100 in an application that might drop support for your platform is bad, investing several orders of magnitude more money than that in developing an application for a platform whose manufacturer drops support for it is even worse. (as happened on both Palm and WM about a year apart, though at least Palm had the decency to make some attempt at backwards-compatibility - Microsoft just plain screwed us, which is why I found myself feeling a bit of schadenfreude when the Kin turned into the latest iteration of Microsoft Bob)

      We try to make it a bit easier on our customers by allowing free platform transfers whenever we can (though it does complicate matters somewhat on the business end) but we're very much hoping that the market will finally stabilize soon so that we can stop having to chase the latest mobile platforms and just focus all of our energies on making our software better.

      I.e. they wrote an app for PalmOS, which was dropped. Then they wrote an app for Windows Mobile which is in the process of being dropped for Windows Phone 7 which will not support native Windows CE applications, only .Net ones.

      I really have no idea what Microsoft are thinking by disabling support for Windows Mobile apps in Windows Phone. It's like if they'd launched Vista with no support for Win32 applications when most of those applications already run on Macs and Macs had a much larger market share.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  11. kin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They already did, it was called the Kin and it failed miserably (i love that absolutely commonplace expression "failed miserably"... as if there was any other sort of failure that would not make one miserable?)

    1. Re:kin by geeper · · Score: 1

      I failed to get hit by that train.

      --
      Error reading device 'Signature'. (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?
    2. Re:kin by ZosX · · Score: 1

      I can think of lots of failures that make me happy. Like the failure of communism....or the failure of the third reich. Failure isn't always a bad thing.

  12. Oh yes ... by psergiu · · Score: 1, Troll

    Oh yes, of course, Microsoft should TOTALLY build their own factories and then build their own hardware. All the Linux, BSD & Mac users agree that Microsoft should definitely invest all of their cash in some big money holes until they go bankrupt. :-)

    --
    1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    1. Re:Oh yes ... by Ruud+Althuizen · · Score: 1

      In that case I'll support their cause :-). I wonder if they are going to put some DRM on it or cripple it in some Microsoft only way (ACPI anyone?).

      --
      **TODO** Steal someone elses sig.
    2. Re:Oh yes ... by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      But then where would they, uh, borrow ideas from? :)

      (Yes, a lot of 'borrowing' goes both ways, and probably makes both better than they would be in a vacuum.)

    3. Re:Oh yes ... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Building phones and building factories are not the same thing. Apple builds phones, HTC builds phones, Motorola builds phones... Oh, no, wait, some company in China with a really high suicide rate builds phones designed and marketed by Apple/HTC/Motorola. When you talk about a company making their "own" phone, you mean designed, marketed, and supported in house. It's still put together in a fab plant by a contractor. I could be wrong here of course, but I don't think any of the big players actually have their own factories, at the very least none of them build ALL their own stuff.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  13. Exactly by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

    Because everyone wants that cool "Microsoft" logo on his/her gadgets [rolls eyes].

    --
    839*929
    1. Re:Exactly by Aliotroph · · Score: 1

      Cue the "If Microsoft Had Designed the iPhone" Photoshop contest!

    2. Re:Exactly by wmac · · Score: 1

      I want it. Microsoft is one of the most successful companies in US history. I am not an American but I think every American can be proud of that.

    3. Re:Exactly by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      Here you go, no Photoshop necessary.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  14. Eh... by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think Microsoft should just leave the phone market all together, insofar as entire operating systems are concerned. Windows Phone 7 looks cool, but the lack of multitasking and the walled garden approach make it a moot point. Let's face it...if you are going to deal with a walled garden, you're most likely going to go with Apple.

    Xbox Live connectivity is intriguing, but not only do I not care about constant contact with my Live friends list...I don't want it. The mobile gaming is also a slight draw, but that's why I have a PSP/DS...

    At this point, Microsoft should just concede this market. They will never catch up to RIM/Android/Apple, and all it will do is hurt their image when it fails.

    1. Re:Eh... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's face it...if you are going to deal with a walled garden, you're most likely going to go with Apple.

      Where did you get that one from? Many cell phones have no options for installing third party software at all; the imprisoned garden would be perceived as an improvement for users of those phones. Microsoft may be coming a bit late to that party, but I do not think the party is over just yet.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Eh... by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Where did you get that one from? Many cell phones have no options for installing third party software at all; the imprisoned garden would be perceived as an improvement for users of those phones. Microsoft may be coming a bit late to that party, but I do not think the party is over just yet.

      Apple's Walled Garden already has a massive number of applications, on top of a mostly positive perception of the iPhone amongst the general public. Microsoft releasing a phone that, to the public, functions similar to the way Apple's runs will most likely be seen as copying Apple. Also, even though its death is imminent, don't forget about the Palm store, either.

      Those who know better won't deal with a walled garden anyway, and will stick with RIM or Android.

    3. Re:Eh... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 0

      A lot of people, including me, have applications that run on Windows Mobile. WinMo isn't going the iPhone but there's definitely an argument for keeping Windows Mobile alive for us. In fact Windows CE is pretty widely used for things like GPS devices. They should keep those customers and in parallel decide on whether launching an iPhone like product is worthwhile.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:Eh... by mdwh2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is a good point - the whole so-called "feature phones" (which are still "smart" in the traditional sense, in that they run apps, allow Internet access, but don't get counted as such) seems to be completely forgotten among geeks, but they sell far more than the higher end phones. (It's an anomaly why the walled garden Iphone got counted in the smart phone category instead of feature phone in the first place.)

      It's sad to see more platforms going for a locked down single-tasking model. But it's funny to see people criticising Microsoft whilst excusing Apple; and it's also clear that in the market for locked down phones, there's room for many companies (including those selling a lot more than Apple).

    5. Re:Eh... by Pojut · · Score: 2, Informative

      ..you do know that all currently WinMo applications will not work with Windows Phone 7, right?

    6. Re:Eh... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 0

      Yeah, see my other posts.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    7. Re:Eh... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point - there are tonnes of companies that ship phones with a "walled garden". They sell far more than Apple. They existed long before the Iphone. It is ludicrous to suggest MS will be "copying Apple".

      Of course, I've no doubt that Apple fans will label it yet another "Apple first", and some of these people will be writing in the media. But it's a sad day if the disproportionate coverage of Apple in the media ends up deterring a massive company like MS from choosing what products to release...

    8. Re:Eh... by Pojut · · Score: 1

      They existed long before the Iphone. It is ludicrous to suggest MS will be "copying Apple".

      Agreed...but that will be the public perception.

      I point you in the direction of the Sixaxis controller and the Wiimote...despite the fact that the Microsoft Freestyle existed long before either.

    9. Re:Eh... by mgblst · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are right, ms are coming to the party late. But mobile is such a big sector, and still growing, the can't afford to leave it. Much like their attitude to the Internet, they have to be there, and will pay whatever it takes. They should just buy motorola, and probably would, but they want lots of manufacturers to make their devices.

    10. Re:Eh... by wmac · · Score: 1

      Apple did not have multitasking a few months ago and it did not prevent it from becoming a success. WP7 has multitasking but it is not available for 3rd party apps. It still can run music in the background while browsing the internet.

    11. Re:Eh... by kharbour · · Score: 1

      Microsoft releasing a phone that, to the public, functions similar to the way Apple's runs will most likely be seen as copying Apple.

      Right, and that strategy has certainly never worked for Microsoft before. Oh, wait...

    12. Re:Eh... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Xbox Live connectivity is intriguing, but not only do I not care about constant contact with my Live friends list...I don't want it.

      Did it occur to you to simply not use it?

      I hate people who complain about optional features simply existing. If you like it, use it. If not, don't. But you're saying you wouldn't purchase a phone because it includes a feature you don't plan to use!? Wha-huh?

  15. Yeah by Bertie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just look how well designing the XBox 360 without the requisite expertise worked out for them...

    1. Re:Yeah by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, over 41 million units sold? That's terrible.

    2. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look at the zune

    3. Re:Yeah by Rayonic · · Score: 1

      The new Xbox 360 redesign seems to indicate that they've obtained the requisite experience. And by all accounts, the Zune and Kin were fine hardware devices at least.

      The Kin even had great battery life:
      http://www.anandtech.com/show/3814/microsofts-kin-a-eulogy/4

      I'm not saying that making phones is a good idea, but it's certainly possible.

    4. Re:Yeah by Bertie · · Score: 1

      And half of them broke because of a design flaw, costing the company an astronomical amount of money. I love how TFA glosses over this factor because it rather gets in the way of his point.

    5. Re:Yeah by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      Pretty damn well! Just look at the success of it and it's sales figures and popularity. Not really sure what your point is?

    6. Re:Yeah by Bertie · · Score: 1

      The millions of failures as a direct result of deciding to do the design in-house? The enormous amount of resultant red ink on the balance sheet?

    7. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I invested 1 million dollars to develop, manufacture and market the Incrdbl 3000. I sold 1 million units at a cost of 1.2 dollar per unit, 30 percent of these suffered from malfunction due to a design flaw and had to be replaced. Not terrible at all. Right?

    8. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      41 million units sold, and over 21 million units given away, with shipping to replace faulty systems. At least the shipping for a phone should be much cheaper than that for an xbrix.

    9. Re:Yeah by Rayonic · · Score: 1

      And half of them broke because of a design flaw

      And then they eventually fixed the design flaw and recently redesigned the product from the ground up. Trial by fire.

      Hell, you even forgot their other big problem, which was quality control at their production facilities. Another hard lesson to learn.

      It is possible for a company to get better at something over time. Crazy but true!

    10. Re:Yeah by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      True, they may have a higher rate of failure due to what you mention, but they still sold enough to make a tidy profit. It's a case of an accepted failure (the RRoD has become rather mundane) because the library of software and online service is so compelling to consumers.

      The better examples would be Zune and Kin, both of which are mobile devices designed and built (albeit in a Chinese factory) by Microsoft. Zune is selling, sort of, while Kin has all but failed. Not an auspicious track record.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    11. Re:Yeah by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      And it cost them another $1 billion on top of being in the red of $7 billion. So the Xbox has lots of sold units but on the whole is unprofitable over the lifetime of the project. Business-wise that's not good.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    12. Re:Yeah by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. They're hitting the red zone now and the 360 has at least another 3 years left in it. It's cheaper to make now and most of the sunk costs are already sunk. We'll see what he situation is in 3-4 years.

    13. Re:Yeah by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      How is your math? Making $100 million profit a quarter for the next 40 years won't come close to paying back $8 billion dollars in debt (not counting interest or inflation). At best the Xbox makes $100 million in revenue a quarter not profit.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    14. Re:Yeah by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Lol. You're full of shit. $100 in revenue a quarter? Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

      $100 Million, indeed.

      Plus the price of the hardware is only getting cheaper, it's more reliable, etc... Their revenue will accelerate.

    15. Re:Yeah by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Did you read that article carefully?

      • First of all Xbox Live is an online service. That's not Xbox hardware sales. By comparison, the iTunes store probably generates a small profit for Apple. In your world, that means that iPods, iPads, and iPhones are barely profitable. They're not the same thing.
      • Second, it's an estimate by an analyst. MS does not break down each products' profits in its reports. MS recently released that the division where Xbox belongs had total revenue of $5.25 billion with a net loss of $172 million. What is in the ESDD?: Xbox, Windows Mobile, OS X software, gaming software, reference software, mice, game controllers, and other peripherals.
      • And Third even your link concedes: "Success in online gaming is crucial for Microsoft because the other products in this unit include the barely profitable Xbox game console and mobile-phone software that's losing ground to Apple Inc. and Google Inc." Your link believes that Xbox is barely profitable now; they are not accounting over it's lifetime.
      • Fourth while the cost of hardware might be getting cheaper, so is the price. To get any more revenue, MS has to sell more units. At this point, most people who want an Xbox already have one. Also while both price and cost go down, is MS making any more money if they sell more?
      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    16. Re:Yeah by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Your point is getting sillier and sillier. Xbox profits are a monolith. They sell the hardware at a loss, or barely break even on it. Their profits come from game licensing and xbox live.

      Trying to divorce the Xbox game console from Microsofts "XBox profits" is like trying to HP barely breaks even on their inkjet printers because they're sold barely above cost. Of course, they make a lot of their money on ink.

    17. Re:Yeah by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Your point is getting sillier and sillier. Xbox profits are a monolith. They sell the hardware at a loss, or barely break even on it. Their profits come from game licensing and xbox live.

      MS disagrees with you. Xbox Live money belongs to the Windows and Windows Live. Xbox console money goes to the Entertainment and Devices Division. And the whole point of this thread was that MS has not yet shown a profit with Xbox hardware which you conceded. The reason they are separated is that XBox Live also services Zune which is another product. And may service other products like Win 7 in the future. It's the same reason that Apple does not classify iTunes Store revenue as iPad, iPod, or iPhone revenue. Hardware is separate from services.

      But for the sake of argument you were to lump all of into one. The $1 billion MS made in Xbox Live is revenue not profit. MS does not divulge margin by product. Let's say it's a healthy 30% (which is very generous). At the current rate of 30% margin, Xbox Live would have to operate 27 years to make back the net loss of the Xbox hardware if nothing changes. If all Xbox owners subscribe to Xbox Live, it's only 13 years ($49/year, 41 million total units sales not current owners). That's still horrible ROI.

      To payback the original investment in 3 or 4 years as you claim, Xbox Live would have to get about 136 million subscribers/year.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  16. Utter crap by DavidpFitz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nonsense. They're hardly going to build a manufacturing plant. They could (like Apple do) sub-contract to another manufacturer. But, in essence they've already done this with HTC making the bulk of Windows Mobile devices. I guess they could (like Google did) get HTC to build a Microsoft branded phone, but it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference as to what they have today.

    1. Re:Utter crap by Fraggy_the_undead · · Score: 1

      They already do sub-contract manufacturers for their hardware. The XBox360 is - like Apples products - manufactured by Foxconn (at least according to wikipedia), so that wouldn't be a huge leap.

    2. Re:Utter crap by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      It's not quite the same thing. HTC is not an ODM, it's an OEM. It has its own software and brand name. When I talked to someone on the Microsoft stand at Computex he told me that HTC was irritated about Windows Phone 7. Since WinPhone can't run native applications HTC would have to rewrite their software (e.g. TouchFlo) in .Net to run on it. What they really wanted was a new version of Windows Mobile with the latest Windows CE kernel. Windows mobile 6.x uses Windows CE 5.x which has a 32MB per process limit because it uses FCSE on ARM. Windows CE 6.x has a 2GB per process address space.

      So HTC want later versions of Windows Mobile. If Microsoft want to build Windows 7 Phone devices they'd be better off getting someone like Foxconn, Quanta or Compal to do it. They are ODMs and basically do whatever the customer wants. The end product would then be branded Microsoft (or Kin, Yo!, Hipstaah or something). Foxconn for example make the iPhone.

      Now my argument is that they could do both. They'd sell Windows Mobile 7 based on WinCE6 with native app support to HTC who'd sell devices to me. And they'd get an ODM to make the Windows Phone 7 devices which they'd then sell effectively to operators the way Apple does with the iPhone. These devices would be slick and locked down and would have a low upfront cost like the iPhone does, though you need to sign up for an expensive monthly contract some of which would go back to Microsoft. This is how iPhones work.

      I think the two markets are actually complementary. People that want an iPhone don't want Windows Mobile. And people that want Windows Mobile don't want an iPhone. And they certainly don't want a Microsoft knock off of an iPhone whch won't run their old apps.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    3. Re:Utter crap by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      They already do sub-contract manufacturers for their hardware. The XBox360 is - like Apples products - manufactured by Foxconn (at least according to wikipedia), so that wouldn't be a huge leap.

      Apple's PCBs are made by Foxconn, cases by other parties, in the past they have been assembled and boxed at facilities owned and operated by Apple, but I'm not sure now. They are/were assembling Macintoshes in Sacramento.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. Advantages to both methods by bravecanadian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree.

    Microsoft generally makes pretty good hardware and doing the whole package would give them a tight control over the integration.

    The downside is you lose the ability to sell the OS to a bigger portion of the market at the outset.

    I think as long as they control the hardware requirements and perhaps have an approval process so that they can do some QA on the phones made by 3rd parties that would be a happy medium for them.

  18. The phones will all have to be blue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So that they match the screens.

  19. Dump Roz Ho instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are they looking everywhere but where the problem is? Roz Ho is the reason why "Kin" is a failure. Roz Ho is the reason why Android exists (her screwing up of the Danger takeover). Roz Ho is the weakest link. And yet, she's still there, apparently un-firable.

    Make their own phones? Why? I had an old trusty Palm Treo running Windows Mobile. It was actually pretty decent. Google has a great partnership with HTC.

    Microsoft's failure at phones is completely the fault of MANAGEMENT.

    1. Re:Dump Roz Ho instead by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Roz Ho is the weakest link. And yet, she's still there, apparently un-firable.

      Of course she is. No exec is going to be caught uttering the phrase "Fire that Ho."

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  20. They did by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It was called the "Kin". It sold for what, 3 weeks?

  21. Not necessary to sell your own hardware by cheesybagel · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Selling your own hardware is not necessary in this segment. The issue with Windows Mobile has never really been the hardware. The HTC HD2 has great hardware, it is the software that sucks. Microsoft needs to fix the software. The problem with Windows Mobile is the typical Microsoft issue. They make a first software version lavishing many resources to enter a market, then when it gets successful they dump the developers overboard (happened to Internet Explorer as well). The Windows Mobile software platform has stagnated for way too long.

    Making Windows Mobile a .NET platform is essential, because it is an easy platform to develop for. Many people know how to develop for it, and those who don't learn quickly. C# is an easier to use language than Objective-C. Making the applications run in a sandbox means you are less open to security vulnerabilities and can afford not to waste as much resources reviewing third party apps before adding them to the online store.

    Lastly the Windows Mobile UI is pathetically backwards. It was good back in the day, but now it is too clunky.

    1. Re:Not necessary to sell your own hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it a .net platform ?

      I recall Windows Mobile 5 way back when taking C# .net apps in a .cab format with a simple download it or copy it to an sd card and install system.

      Has windows phone 7 really can backwards and started using Obj-C or C++ ?

      Completly agree on the UI though... its pants.

    2. Re:Not necessary to sell your own hardware by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      You might've needed to install .net separately on early WM5 devices, but it's certainly wasn't a problem to just install .net apps from a cab or run the exe from wherever you found it. WM6 seemed to have .net support out of the box. Of course, you could also have native applications.

      But now, in my opinion, MS fucked up completely with WM7. Not only there is no compatibility with previous versions, but you can't have C/C++ without sucking somebody off at Microsoft, and C# is the only way.

      The old UI sure was clunky (that's exactly the word that I always use), but I think it's still better than the ugly monstrosity that is to be found in WM7.

  22. Short term memory loss? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Interesting

    MS already built a phone. Actually two of them. They were the Kin One and Kin Two and they have failed miserably.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  23. Because a significant number of consumers... by beamdriver · · Score: 1

    ...have been clamoring for a Zune Phone. AmIRight?

    1. Re:Because a significant number of consumers... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      The Zune is what people love to make fun of - though to put things into persepective, the market share varied over the years, up to 10%, dropping to a few per cent, which makes it a "flop" apparently; yet I'm not sure that Apple have passed 5% market share in the phone market, and this is seen as a runaway success.

      (Not to mention that even if the Zune was a flop, who cares. Lots of companies have their misses, including Apple.)

  24. Microsoft created the operating system market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Microsoft revolutionized the operating system market back in the early 1980s. Indeed, Microsoft created the operating system market back in the early 1980s. Back then, when you bought a computer, it normally had its own special operating system that the vendor bundled (or even sold at extra cost)"

    I thought IBM hired on Microsoft to write the OS for the proprietary IBM PC? And didn't a company called Apple bring out the Apple 1I in 1977 some time before the IBM PC in 1981?

  25. Marketing droids by owlnation · · Score: 1

    Yes... but I'm not buying one, unless it comes in brown.

    Seriously, MS's biggest Achilles Heel is it's whole Marketing / Design Dept. If they had better people there, they'd be a lot more successful, regardless of hardware or software.

  26. What if by FakeStreet123 · · Score: 0

    What if I don't want microsoft to make money?

    1. Re:What if by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What if (Score:1)
      by FakeStreet123 (1852344) Alter Relationship on 07-28-10 6:21 (#33055328)
      What if I don't want microsoft to make money?

      1) You stop using the subject line as part of the comment. No, wait, that's just good netiquette. Don't be that guy!
      2) You should then be 100% behind their entertainment division, which so far has cost them truckloads of cash. Ask them to bring out a phone! And another Zune! And some more shitty input devices! Wait, people buy those.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  27. The should stop building phones... by melancolico · · Score: 1

    ... and start building more middlemen.

  28. Why? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    Why not come out with an attempt at a kick-ass OS (Windows Phone 7 Series - no idea if it'll be good or not when released but presumably the idea is that it doesn't suck), a tightly-proscribed hardware reference definition for the manufacturers (chipset, number of physical buttons, minimum resolution etc) and then leave all the awkware engineering and production to companies that do it best such as HTC or Foxconn? They don't need to actually manufacture them themselves.

    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not come out with an attempt at a kick-ass OS (Windows Phone 7 Series - no idea if it'll be good or not when released but presumably the idea is that it doesn't suck), a tightly-proscribed hardware reference definition for the manufacturers (chipset, number of physical buttons, minimum resolution etc) and then leave all the awkware engineering and production to companies that do it best such as HTC or Foxconn? They don't need to actually manufacture them themselves.

      Windows Phone 7 Minimum hardware requirements

  29. Microsoft Mobile by helix2301 · · Score: 1

    I agree with this Microsoft needs to really rethink there mobile market strategies and ideas. They have the market in the OS but they have yet to make a dent in the mobile industry this is surprising for a company that has the resources and the finances to do lots of RND.

  30. "Microsoft has a long and illustrious history ... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Microsoft has a long and illustrious history of operating system sales.

    .
    Here, let me fix that typo for you.

    "Microsoft has a long and iniquitous history of operating system sales."

  31. We'll call it.... by AntEater · · Score: 2, Funny

    the Zune-phone!!

    --
    Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    1. Re:We'll call it.... by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

      Or zPhone, which is 17 better than iPhone.

    2. Re:We'll call it.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they need to follow the whole iPod/iPad trend and only change one letter. I propose the Zule.

      Upon start up it could ask, 'are you the key-master?'

    3. Re:We'll call it.... by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      Will it be brown and have the ability to squirt long distance?

    4. Re:We'll call it.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the Zune-phone!!

      Awww... go squirt yourself.

  32. Stupid by diegocg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Microsoft made its own phone all the other phone manufacturers would quit using windows mobile. Yeah, that's a great idea, convert your partners into enemies.

    Just because Apple looks "cool" doesn't means that Microsof has to imitate them. In fact Android seems to be able to kill iPhone relevance in the next years. Yet Android is not the product of a company that does software + hardware.

    1. Re:Stupid by agent_vee · · Score: 1

      Exactly right. Why would any other phone companies use the Mobile OS of their direct competitor???

  33. microsoft needs to stop being marketing driven by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    the real problem is microsoft is a marketing driven company that is trying to squeeze a nickel out of and make everyone else happy except the person actually using the phone. If they would just concentrate on the end Customer and quit trying to make the all these other groups happy that have no other agenda, but to degrade the phone (with drm, etc) they would be more successful.

  34. Microsoft should die. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem solved.

  35. MS should spin off their phone division by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    I've heard that their upcoming phone OS is very good. Unfortunately, it's saddled with "Microsoft" and "Windows". If I were Microsoft and wanted to give this division the best chance to succeed, I would spin off the mobile OS division into it's own company and be the majority (only?) shareholder. Part of the spin off agreement would be that Microsoft has perpetual rights to build products around the mobile OS.

    Microsoft should then concentrate on enterprisey products (ie, take on RIM) and cede consumer oriented devices to the new company.

    This would let Microsoft succeed where they have their best chance and would give the phone OS a better chance of attracting talented developers. Face it, if you are under 30, Microsoft is about as cool as Oracle. And like it or not, cool matters with something like a phone which is an accessory as much as it is a device.

    This would only work iff the new phone OS is better in many respects than iOS and Android. Is it? If it isn't, it's going to be WinCE part deux.

  36. To one's self be true by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 1

    The model has served the company well on the PC, but if it wants to make money in the phone market, it needs to start thinking like a consumer electronics company.

    Companies that stick to their core competencies thrive.
    Companies that lose track of their core competencies decline and fail.

    Microsoft is, first and foremost, an operating systems company. Whatever they do must serve that core competency. To stray from that into another market, say into the cellphone market as a direct competitor, is to pursue an afterthought against those devoted to that market - the fail should be apparent from the outset.

    TFA demonstrates as a positive the Zune, showing the author is confused about what constitutes "success".
    TFA demonstrates as a positive the Xbox, which is a closed system little different from their main offering of an OS running apps on a PC.
    Cell phones are different. They're not PCs. Microsoft should consider it's own history, and that of others: deviating from devotion to the core competency is a fast, and expensive, track to fail.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:To one's self be true by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Except the market is changing. There is still money to be made in OS in the desktop PC market but this is not growing as fast as it used to and is fast becoming commoditized. No one wants to pay $300 for a new Windows license every 3 years when the whole hardware cost is about that price. In the new markets of various embedded devices, Microsoft is not a leader no matter how you look at it. In the server market, Linux works as well and is cheaper. In the gaming console market, Microsoft is doing OK but is not as dominant as it was with desktop PC.

      In other words Microsoft is making money for the time being but is no longer the #1 top company to work for they used to be. Nothing new here.

  37. Something like... by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1
  38. car companies don't pave roads by Adkins1984 · · Score: 1

    The cell phone market is essentially closed to anyone that is trying to break in in a huge way. Without something big, and I mean BIG, to offer Microsoft is just better off to rest on it's laurels and stick to what it does at the moment. I refrain from saying what it does best, cause I think it could do better with some effort, but I digress. You know what I mean. Just cause a company makes good cars, doesn't mean it should build roads.

  39. Yes. Just like with music players. by halber_mensch · · Score: 0, Troll

    I'd love to see this. When they decided to get into the music player market they made a brown turd, thought of how to make the word "Tune" edgier and came up with "Zune". Maybe they can shoot themselves in the foot all over again in the phone market with another brown turd with the same awesome marketing skill. "What do we do on a phone?" "I think we talk!" "Ok, let's change the first letter and make it sound hip and edgy!" "Yeah, let's call it the Zalk!" "Oh man, I'd want to buy a Zalk!" "Oh me too!" "Watch out iPhone! The Zalk is the next new hip thing!"

    --
    perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
  40. It seems like you would like to make a phone call by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    while updates to Microsoft Phone Direct(tm) are being installed. Would you like to make a phone call after Microsoft Phone Direct(tm) has been updated?

  41. Business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS has to understand why it is doing well in GAMING systems, but at the same time MS has to stop "gaming" the features and functions it puts into products and start focusing on users; their new ads claim they are listening to what consumers want, but extra features come with an extra price... MS treats features and functions the same way car dealers treat options like stereos, paint schemes, leather seats.

    The are more interested in locking in customers, and milking them for $$ than making them happy...

    Until they decide they want to make customers happy, they really shouldn't be selling products to end users; the one place they are doing that are GAMING systems; customers in that market demand the right set of features and functions and MS does it, makes them happy and they are making money.

  42. I completely disagree with this by pastafazou · · Score: 1

    Microsoft's strength is in the fact that it delivers a software product that hopefully works on almost any manufacturer's hardware. The competition for the actual hardware is fierce, and therefore margins are thin. But Microsoft doesn't care whether Samsung, Nokia, LG, or whoever has the hottest line of phones, because they should be selling on all of those devices.

  43. Is Copying Apple a Good Idea? by qazwart · · Score: 1

    The main argument the article makes is look how well it works for Apple. But, Apple has spent years perfecting its products and building its reputation. You can also look at the Android model and see different hardware manufacturers building a phone that competes effectively against the iPhone monolith.

    When Android 3 comes out, the various UIs on top of the Android phone and the various lower levels of hardware interface will go away. What was suppose to be an Android strength -- the OS being customizable to various platforms -- has a big weakness. The problem with Android 1.x and 2.x is that it is almost impossible to keep the OS up to date. Many phones are still sold with the old Android 1.6 OS and maybe with no hopes for updating. With the fast accelerating market (the original "Droid" is less than a year old and is now an obsolete phone) the vast differences in hardware is causing problems.

    There are also weaknesses with the iPhone model. If the iPhone is available to all cell phone providers, they find themselves as a commodity business competing only on price. Android allowed Verizon to offer distinct phones that its rivals cannot offer. Android 3.0 will take away some of this flexibility as the hardware platform is more standardized, but it isn't as unified as the PC platform. There are too many marketing forces that want to keep the various phones distinct from each other.

    W7P is following the Android 3.0 model. The phones can be base upon three different reference platforms, and the platform specifications are loose enough to allow for a wider variety of phones and functionality than found in the PC market. This can be an advantage as cell phone service providers and cell phone manufacturers try to make the devices they offer different from their competitors.

    The main threat against W7P isn't external, but the internal forces at Microsoft. There is pressure to rewrite the Zune based W7P platform to use Windows internally. The W7P group already has been told that it cannot offer its OS on tablets (why this group is Windows 7 PHONE and not Windows 7 MOBILE). The Windows CE team is still around and has successfully killed the Project Pink group and is now aiming at the Zune and W7P group. The desktop Windows group is also taking aim at the Zune and W7P group. If Windows 7 Phone fails, it'll won't be because it wasn't a viable platform. Most reviews of W7P have been very good.

  44. Clippy by bsandersen · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hi! I'm Clippy! Microsoft Bob is not available. You could leave him a message if you like. Just hold down the #, *, 7, and 3 keys. It looks like you are trying to make a call. Would you like me to help with that? I see you've dialed a 9. There is an area code "978", can I finish dialing that for you? Oh, I see you've now dialed a "1". You might be trying to make an emergency call. I could... ** REBOOT ** Hi! I'm Clippy! Microsoft Bob is not available right now...

  45. So, what you are really saying.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is that MS has a lousy OS, with lousy tech support at a high price and is no longer being pushed by the other companies. IOW, it is time for MS to try and by-pass those companies who will no longer take MS's bribes, and go straight to the consumers.

  46. With apologies to PTerry.. by salmacis2 · · Score: 1

    What a ---kin great idea!

  47. Microsoft = good hardware, poor software by evilandi · · Score: 1

    Own up, who has a Microsoft mouse despite running *nix? I do. Best build quality for the price.

    Microsoft make great hardware. Just so long as it doesn't need drivers and doesn't have any significant embedded software, it's fine.

    --
    Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    1. Re:Microsoft = good hardware, poor software by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I have a cordless laser desktop 6000. there's no encryption so anyone could sniff it (but I live in the boonies.) The mouse regularly exhibits "strange" behavior even when batteries are new. The keyboard will actually send the wrong characters if you hit enough keys before the buffer empties while you are at the limits of its range, which is shit.

      Then there's the classic Microsoft "ergonomic" mouse. It's ergonomic for exactly one size of hand. For everyone else, there's logitech.

      Microsoft has never been a particularly competent designer of hardware. They had basically one hit, their original ergonomic keyboard, which came at a time when such things were not available for five bucks at the Fry's of your choice. Everything else has been a follow-on.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Microsoft = good hardware, poor software by VGPowerlord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Own up, who has a Microsoft mouse despite running *nix? I do. Best build quality for the price.

      Actually, I prefer Logitech. Microsoft's scroll wheel is way too loose feeling for me.

      Of course, I'm saying this as a gamer, where you want distinct click-stops if you use a mouse wheel.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    3. Re:Microsoft = good hardware, poor software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Microsoft doesn't make mice, they just put their name on them.

      For that matter, who makes cell phones? Apple sure doesn't. Google didn't. They both only made the OS. (Apple put together much of the hardware, but they didn't design the chips or assemble it).

      Maybe Nokia and Motorola still make their hardware... I don't see it mattering whether Microsoft makes their own hardware or not. In fact, it's a bit silly to expect that they would. They don't have the expertise, and if they invested the money, they still might not succeed. If they did succeed, well their profits would be lower since it's a capital intensive business to manufacture hardware.

  48. I'm getting in line already by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

    I simply MUST be the first person to have a brown Phune.

    --
    "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  49. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This isn't a good space for Microsoft. I don't think they will ever be competitive here. They are too big and too kludgy and too out of touch with what's cool and new and cutting edge to ever do this. Microsoft makes a pretty decent enterprise OS...and that business and that mentality does not translate all that well to phones. Yes there are some similarities, but in terms of the forward thinking mindset needed to stay competitive in the phone market...MS just does not have it.

    I am not an apple user but, honestly, this is really a perfect market for them. They're big enough to know how to make a clean, stable OS but small and arbitrary enough to come up with new ideas and send them down the pipe without asking permission. They have proven that they are good at making devices (I run nothing but MS on the desktop and nothing but apple on my devices...I live and die by my ipod).

  50. Someone hasn't been paying attention recently by jalefkowit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Microsoft has a long and illustrious history of operating system sales. The model has served the company well on the PC, but if it wants to make money in the phone market, it needs to start thinking like a consumer electronics company and start making its own phones.

    But they recently tried doing just that. And it was an epic failure.

  51. Yes -- sort of by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

    I think copying Apple is a good idea up to a point, and I'll qualify that: the thing that was most revolutionary about the iPhone (and something that I think is often missed) is its inversion of how phones were created.

    Old model: the wireless carriers essentially go to phone manufacturers and say what they want. The problem with this model is that while the wireless carriers have an excellent sense of what is selling currently at that moment, they don't have a lot of vision or expertise in the realm of the innovative or possible in their market.

    Apple's model: We're going to make this cool phone. We've already decided it's going to have these new features seen before, and we think we know best about what it should or shouldn't provide. We don't care what you think about it, wireless providers. We're just making this phone we like. Who wants to make a deal to sell it?

    I think if Microsoft is to have any prayer in the phone market (and it is a slim prayer at its best), they need to take the same mindset of figuring out a bunch of cool/useful things and making a phone that does it. I can't see them having a lot of success with the Android model of "we built this platform, now anyone go and make a cool phone out of it."

    Frankly, after some of the boggling omissions in the Kin's feature set, I have my doubts that Microsoft's phone people have the vision to even know what the killer features would be -- but as dubious as that is, I can't see any other way in which they can make a serious dent.

  52. Kin, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because of course we've all actually just seen exactly how well Microsoft managed to create their own phone!

  53. what a *great* idea! by goffster · · Score: 1

    Microsoft has no expertise whatsoever in any field.
    Their only competitive advantage is that they are big.
    Why do we think they can produce anything but a crappy phone?

  54. OEM vs ODM by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

    Great information in your post. I suspect the reason Microsoft doesn't go with an ODM is because it might be significantly more expensive, which would result in a more expensive phone that won't compete as well in the marketplace (see: Dell Streak @ $299).

    Also, it seems to be their dream that a horde of OEM's will license Win 7 phone OS and save Microsoft the hardware R & D, and exposure to flop risk. It's a false hope considering OEM's have Android available for free, but I'm pretty sure that's what Steve B. is thinking.

    1. Re:OEM vs ODM by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Great information in your post. I suspect the reason Microsoft doesn't go with an ODM is because it might be significantly more expensive, which would result in a more expensive phone that won't compete as well in the marketplace (see: Dell Streak @ $299).

      The iPhone is an ODM product - it's made by Foxconn. An 8GB iPhone 3GS is $99 if you get it from AT&T. Of course it's not really $99, AT&T pay a kickback to Apple to cover the cost of the hardware. I've read "$20 per month" or $325. That's $325 or $480 over the cost of a 24 month contract.

      Now it's hard to get an unlocked iPhone, but let's say

      http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/18/atandt-to-offer-unsubsidized-iphone-3g-with-no-commitment-required/

      $599 for 8GB

      That makes me think the value of $480 is about right and they charge you $20 extra for unlocking. Now I could be wrong of course - other figures I've seen have been lower - the contract breaking fee is max $325, which would put the hardware cost at $424. But I've never seen an unlocked iPhone sell for as low as this.

      Here's the Dell Streak

      http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/27/dell-streak-retailing-for-299-with-contract-549-without-dell/

      I.e. and 8GB iPhone 3GS costs $424 to $599 without a subsidy and $99 with. A Dell streak costs $549 with no subsidy and $299 with. Dell have cheaper hardware but they failed to negotiate a good subsidy. They get $250 and Apple get $325 to $480!

      Incidentally the BOM cost for an iPhone 3GS is $179.

      http://www.isuppli.com/teardowns-manufacturing-and-pricing/news/pages/iphone-3g-s-carries-178-96-bom-and-manufacturing-cost-isuppli-teardown-reveals.aspx

      So Apple are making a fortune regardless of the subsidy.

      Now my argument is that one of the things that AT&T and the like tend to like is locked down devices. For example on my Windows Mobile device which is unlocked I get tethering for free.

      On an iPhone I'd need to pay $20 per month. Given the sort of people who buy smartphones, I think they can argue that that added average revenue per month justifies more subsidy.

      http://gizmodo.com/5553135/att-iphone-tethering-an-extra-20month

      So my argument is that the Apple model is an ODM'd product which is locked down where things like tethering cost extra.

      Actually if I got a subsidized Windows Mobile device, they'd probably disable tethering unless I paid them too.

      I.e. unlocked devices have features that sell to customers. Locked devices have those features disabled to sell to operators if they want to get a high subsidy.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  55. Armchair CEO is silly by EriktheGreen · · Score: 1

    I don't quite know where to begin with this strategic suggestion for Microsoft from an armchair CEO.

    Microsoft is a successful vendor of OS software. Partly this is due to their products' quality, but largely it's due to inertia, already having market dominance, having some rather aggressive, predatory business practices, and generally operating in an ethical gray area.

    It's rather sloppy thinking to believe there's only one kind of corporate success, IE if Microsoft is a Big Company, and it takes a Big Company to make and sell a product like a cell phone, then Microsoft ought to be successful at making and selling cell phones.

    Thinking like that ignores a lot of major differences between Microsoft and eg. Nokia. Differences that include knowledge of the cell market, good relationships with cell phone network companies, a service and support organization that would have a much larger customer base than Microsoft's software support apparatus, higher costs for manufacturing the product, larger exposure to risk from having more physical inventory vs. just having CDs and manuals, lack of design expertise in the area of phones and lack of management talent for running such an organization.

    Also, the cell phone manufacturer space is crowded. If they're manufacturing physical phones they're competing with national and overseas companies that are much better at making phones than they are (initially and for the near term). They'd start at a disadvantage, something they're historically not good at.

    Saying that since Microsoft wants to dominate cell phones with Windows 7 so they should start making phones is like saying Goodyear wants to dominate the car tire market so they should start making cars. You're suggesting a company that is good at something car related should automatically be good enough at making cars to dominate the market.

    Finally, I believe Microsoft has a history of making MS hardware devices with few successes. The MS mouse and keyboard are exceptions. The Xbox could be considered a failure except as a loss leader for selling software (games). In some quarters their hardware produces a profit, but it's tiny compared to the profits from software. Certainly not enough to gain market dominance like the article suggests should be possible for phones. How many people do you know that own Zunes?

  56. Well, they are going to do it anyway. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft will probably end up making their own phones anyway. They will, however, let other companies beta test their OS and find what works best.

    Once that's been established Microsoft will take the best features, all the lessons learned, and all the data they've gathered to create their own device. They'll bundle it with some exclusive special sauce Microsoft-live-something service. The hardware and software stack will be newer and better and be incompatible with their initial offering. The old hardware/software stack/services will cease to be updated.

    Why do I predict this? It's the exact business model Microsoft used for the Zune. They got a lot of companies on board with the "plays for sure" idea, tying DRM to windows media player.. Then promptly threw all of their partners under the bus when they released the Zune, obsoleting both players and software. I wish I was there when the CEO of Creative learned that microsoft had just fucked them over.

  57. A tough mobile device market by businessmobile · · Score: 1

    I think it would be a very bad time to enter this market. LG and Nokia have just posted record losses: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/lg-electronics-profit-falls-33-after-company-falls-behind-in-smartphones.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10725887 BlackBerry is also losing business market share to iPhone and other smartphone makers: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65N5WC20100624 Microsoft would do better to build their reputation in the mobile marketplace with quality operating systems - for now. Consolidation in the marketplace seems inevitable. When there are fewer competitors and Microsoft is established and trusted in the market, that would be the time to launch microsoft hardware. But its devices would need to rival iPhone in quality and HTC in price.

  58. long and illustrious history of channel control by Locutus · · Score: 1

    I almost choked on my coffee reading this, "Microsoft has a long and illustrious history of operating system sales.". WTF does that have to do with anything regarding the ability to sell products into a channel which they do not have _control_ of? The middleman is what has given Microsoft control and maintained sales of Windows on PCs. So Microsoft dumping the middleman is like telling a gunman to dump his weapon.

    FYI, the phone is not tied to the desktop PC so Microsoft has no control and therefore their "long and illustrious history" of leverage is worthless. Especially now that Apple and Google have shown companies can make profits in the segment and promises from Microsoft or spoon fed profits via marketing kickbacks have little effect and any of the large vendors.

    BTW, how did that Zune do? Dumb concept of an article IMO.

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  59. Exactly the Opposite by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I'm not really interested in helping Microsoft with free advice. But what would be a lot better for MS, and for the market, would be MS forcing phone HW to become as open as is PC HW, and marketing Windows (or whatever) OS as the best choice to install on it. Much like their current strategy, but from the "open" angle, so MS can steal market share from Symbian, Android and Apple even after the user buys the phone by installing the MS OS instead of the default. Let desktop Windows install a mobile OS onto a phone, and sync everything between the two. That's a lot more likely to succeed, to offer the huge profit margins MS is used to, and to be like the SW business that MS understands, instead of a low margin HW business that competes with some big MS customers.

    If MS could force the US to unbundle the mobile networks from the HW as the default, so there's a single mobile Internet instead of what's like the 1980s Compuserve/Source/GEnie that transparently roams even during a call, that would be the kind of platform where MS could make most of the profit while the HW and network providers do most of the work. Work that uses MS software to get done.

    Google is pressuring that gradual openness. If Microsoft joined it instead of joining Apple, we'd all be better off - even if MS got most of the benefit.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  60. Microsoft takes ARM architectural license by CaptainPhoton · · Score: 1

    Maybe this is in the works. Just read that they are getting the ARM core.
    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4204863/Microsoft-takes-ARM-license

    Obtaining the leading processor core for mobile phones positions them well to create a mobile phone, don't ya think? :)

  61. MS Phone 2.0? by CeruleanDragon · · Score: 1

    Does anyone remember this? I used to have one, I loved it. It was cordless and the base station connected to the serial port on your system (before the days of USB) and had some great features. Answering incoming calls could be customized based on caller ID to answer with different messages and messages left were recorded into .WAV files and filed into directories so you could use them like any other file. Incoming call from your friend? "Hey Mike, I'm heading up to the bar now, be there by 10-ish." Incoming call from your girlfriend? "*cough* Sorry sweetie, still pretty sick, I'm in bed already, I'll call you tomorrow." Incoming call from a harassing creditor? Email it to a lawyer.

    It was well built and it's sitting in my storage unit, I'll bet it would still work if I hooked it up.

    The only catch is to use all of those features you had to leave your PC on at all times... I think that'd be less of a problem these days, since many people run home media/file/print servers that are generally left on 24/7 anyway.

    I'd jump on a MS Phone 3.0, I think. Especially if they got clever and combined it with a cell phone...

    --
    ad astra per alia porci
  62. Bad Idea by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is not a hardware company.Phones are complex and highly competitive due to market size. Chances are that Microsoft would not be able to build a competitive phone on the first offering and the cost of setting up a fabrication facility would be a dreadful loss. And then there is the worst of all problems. In order to build a decent phone it would probably need to be Linux based and that would amount to a very degrading admission on their part. (I just had to add that last sentence.)

  63. Microsoft hardware by blackjackshellac · · Score: 1

    Is a fucking oxymoron. Every piece of hardware they have ever produced has been complete shit, worse even than their OS.

    --
    Salut,

    Jacques

  64. Profit on profit - you forgot the leverage by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is a software company, therefore they have 90% profit on sales.
    Apple is a hardware company, therefore they have 40% profit on sales.

    Very true.

    But Microsoft sells a product to you once. Then they are done, as far as collecting more revenue (or profit).

    Apple sells you a product once. But most of the devices are as you say hardware - and most of them now either iPod or iOS devices.

    Thus after the initial sale, the continue to get more revenue (and profit) from the user base, in an uneven but recurring stream from iTunes (music/video/app sales).

    One other response to your post indicated Apple's sale growth was not linear as Microsoft's is. This is why.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  65. This has already happened. by mjwx · · Score: 1

    So they'll sink $4-5 billion building hardware, software, branding, and (presumably) a market/network? Yeah, maybe.

    Didn't MS do this already, I think it was called the Kin and sold for about 3 weeks on one US network that operates a cellular technology that no-one else in the world uses.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  66. Linux on Chinese Hardware is the end game. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All that's left to fight over is whose logo is stuck on Foxconn Product. Is it apple, nokia, ms , motorola?

    Hmm. I named 4 players off the top of my head. Everyone knows that when an industry shakes out, there are 3 or less players that form the final oligopoly. So there will be a shakeout. Which stock(s) to short?

    The product cycle is what, about 12 months? In another 3 generations, all the bugs will be worked out, all the cool GUI stuff will be stolen and implemented every in every ones phone product.

    So in 3 years, we reach commodity on smartphones.

    Acer is already making smart phones. To me, and this is just a personal thing, If Acer is making smartphones, I would declare commoditization is here. Low margins are here. But that's just me.

    Microsoft has less than 3 years to capture significant market share.

    It has to ship significant volume of ergonomic, beautiful, pleasing to the eye, with NO BUGS and long battery life. A thought out, FINISHED product.

    Significant volume product that JUST WORKS, and no safety net of version 2.0 or 3.0, because the Chinese will put their product in Walmart and just drown MS with 'Cheap! and good enough'. Foxconn wil drown everybody! And if the Chinese state gets behind this and feels like a good scrap, then there are state subsidies and dumping.

    I don't see the vibrant Microsoft needed to pull this off. I see licensing games and lawyers run amok.

    I see a management, er, um team? that is old, cranky and fights amongst itself.

    I have not seen any slash dot articles about the new Microsoft Dream Team consisting of PROVEN world class engineers to handle this RACE to get into this market place before the VERY LAST 3 years of this window closes.

    But what do I know.

  67. Revisionist History Article by lwriemen · · Score: 1

    Those of us who are older than DOS, know that the operating system market existed before Microsoft, and that IBM (or maybe better stated, the DOJ) caused the operating system market to really take off. Microsoft pretty much kept it in a stranglehold, in the personal computer market, once it established it's monopoly via anti-competitive practices. Once again, DOJ action was required to restore it to the not-quite-healthy state it is in today.
    The embedded devices operating system market operated pretty much wholly independent of Microsoft until around ten years ago. Microsoft hasn't ever really offered a good operating system choice in the embedded market. (Although they had an opportunity when rich application clients started coming into demand.) Robustness was always a big stumbling block, back then, and openness is what will trip them up today.

  68. Re:"Microsoft has a long and illustrious history . by KZigurs · · Score: 1

    Wrong. Microsoft HW division has been churning out pretty much impressive stuff for years by now. Zune/Zune HD HW-wise hasn't been too shabby efforts ether.

  69. Yah, just like Google does with Android... by RichiH · · Score: 1

    Yah, just like Google does with Android... Oh, wait...

  70. How Original by okmijnuhb · · Score: 1

    Seriously, how original. Let's look to Apple to see what else Microsoft should do.