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New Jaguar XJ Suffers Blue Screen of Death
An anonymous reader writes "CNET UK is reporting that it crashed a £90,000 Jaguar XJ Super Sport — one of the most technologically advanced cars on the planet today. It's not the sort of crash you'd imagine, however — An unforseen glitch somewhere within the car's dozens of separate onboard computers, hundreds of millions of lines of code, or its internal vehicular network, led to the dramatic BSOD, which had to be resolved with the use of a web-connected laptop."
If you RTFA, there' no mention of Windows. The Car just wouldn't start. They disconnected the battery, and reconnected it.
Fortunately it was going at 0 kph when it crashed.
Still, it would be nice if fail-safes kicked in when the computer crashes with the car running.
"Fail-safes? We don't need no sticking fail-sa*SOUNDOFCARCRASH*"
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I see that Jaguar is another satisfied Microsoft customer.
FTFA: "Over the minutes that followed, the software analysed every one of the car's digital systems in search of a problem. The culprit could have been any number of things -- the Bosch-supplied, Linux-based infotainment system, the Visteon-supplied virtual instrument display, a heat-ravaged processor, an errant mouse somewhere in one of the car's hundreds of miles of wiring, or the dodgy contents of a CNET UK memory key in one of the XJ's two USB ports."
Lots of systems running together, in a very rugged environment (for a computer, anyways)... I don't think it's terribly surprising that this could happen. In fact, the only surprising fact here is that it doesn't happen MORE often than it does.
Next step -> Airplanes. It's the best timing to start a parachute business.
They don't separate critical from non-critical systems? *AND* run some systems under windows? wow.
I would have hoped that the reason for "motor does not turn on" can not be "entertainment system crashed", but what do i know.....
Nobody wanted to buy British junk. That's why all they ended with Indians and the Chinese.
I heard you like car analogies, so we put a computer in your car so you can crash when you crash.
Wait, that's not actually an analogy.
I recognize the advances electronic components have created in vehicles but there has to be a sweet spot between efficiency/safety and reliability. I wonder how computer system on cars fair against those on planes.
In fairness, the title is misleading: Blue Screen of Death implies Microsoft Windows, and there is no Microsoft Windows involved in this story (at least, not in the car). Indeed, the only OS mentioned in the story is Linux.
I despise Microsoft and Windows, but I do so for REAL reasons, which this story IS NOT. The summary should be fixed to note this wasn't a BSOD, that Windows was not at fault, etc., just to be fair and consistent.
As it stands, the summary is just prejudiced and misleading.
(oh, sorry. forgot where I was for a moment.)
www.eFax.com are spammers
I still don't get it - why cars need so much software? Older cars worked quite well with just mechanical controls, so why there are so many computers in new cars?
Non-essential systems do not count - if the radio/usb player fails, I'll be annoyed (and I can replace the player with a simpler tape deck if I want to), if the steering or brakes fail, I'll be injured or dead.
So, why the millions of lines of code? Are they really necessary for the system to do the job what simpler (and more reliable) mechanical linkages did in the past (steering, brakes, throttle, clutch, gear selector)? Mechanical devices fail, but they usually give "notice" before doing so - you can see the rusty rod or the cracked link before it fails. Oh, and you still need the mechanical device (the wheels somehow have to turn in the direction that the user turned the steering wheel). Also, people seem to be able to design mechanical devices that work as intended, while software is almost always buggy.
My 28 year old car somehow seems to be able to work and get me from point A to point B even though the tape deck has more complex electronics (well, it has a RDS decoder, Dolby B and C NR, logic controls, LCD display, ability to control CD and MD changers etc) and the electronics of the car itself consist of a few relays.
The critical systems - brakes and steering aren't drive-by-wire and I doubt very much that the ECU is connected in any significant way to the ICE bits.
Oh, and Windows wasn't involved either. Besides, failing by not starting the engine when the car is parked seems pretty fail-safe to me...
Lucas went defunct in 1996. The lord of darkness went dark. But the spirit lives on. The story reminded me of a TR-6 I had in college. You never knew what would happen when you turned the key. Nine out of ten it would start.
I don't understand how everything is so misleading and full of shit here. What thebfuck is wrong with the editors here? I've been creeping slashdot since 2000, its never been perfect, but the editors are slacking a lot more recently.
Whatever problem they are left stranded waiting for a certified Jaguar technician. On the other hand I can fix my 1985 Jimny with a hammer and a screwdriver and will survive an EMP blast! (I think the stereo is only thing that contains digital components)
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
regardless of the complexity it encapsulates, since the only visible piece is the button, it constitutes the sole point of contact for the entire power train..
THAT is why use cases are pointless. :-)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Forget about starting that Jaguar now. What I wonder is how well those modern cars choke full of electronics will work in 10 years.
My guess is that people will be shipping them to India to be diagnosed and repaired.
Windows server 2003: 50Mloc
Recent Linux kernel (with most drivers, something you wouldn't do for embedded systems) 13Mloc
I call bullshit on that quote.
Also, the car not starting implies a non-functioning primary system (as oppossed to something non-important like hifi systems etc.), how comfortable should anyone be that life-and-death parts of consumer-oriented stuff are comprised of "hundreds of millions of lines of code" ?
I got the context from the title instantly... and then it took me awhile to remember that the word "crash" can also refer to a vehicle colliding with something. ...I think I need to go outside more often.
This year both the number and the nature of the reports of car software problems indicate that the car industry is unable to produce functional fail-safe car software. I will not go into the reasons behind this, but it's obvious that there is no quick or easy fix for this.
So if you were to buy a new car, which one would you choose?
Which car has the least amount of car software / bloatware and is modern enough to be considered safe (enough)?
What?!
"hundreds of millions of lines of code"
I don't believe that number
Just a bogoword from an illiterate.
.
I was going to read the article, until I reached this line:
"Our first instinct was that we'd exhausted the car's battery by watching too much Eminem on its integrated DVD player"
Then I figured out their problem. The car simply could not take take it anymore and once it realized they were going to load an 8 mile DVD, committed suicide.
Well, I *assume* the power windows did not respond to user input.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I got called crazy when I brought up this site's anti-MS pro-linux slant yesterday. The thing was running Linux and it's stillbeing blamed on Microsoft!
It's a Bosch dash running Linux for the infotainment. I much prefer Harman dashes that run QNX like Audi, BMW, and a number of other car makers use... totally more reliable IMO. I've actually worked hands-on with some of this stuff, and I must admit, I trust QNX much more for mission-critical applications, like automobiles.
I was car shopping last year and I wanted to test drive a Ford Fusion hybrid. Besides the speedometer, all other gauges on the dash are LCD. The salesman was trying to show me some of the features and kept getting lost in the menu system and at one point the dash became completely unresponsive. The salesman looked at me kind of sheepishly and then said occasionally when this happens you just have to turn the car off and let it sit for 10 seconds then turn it back on. At that point I had pretty much made up my mind to NOT buy this car but I kind of felt obligated at that point to finish the test drive so after the "reboot" it worked like he expected it to so he showed me all these neato features. In the car's defense there are some pretty cool display options on that vehicle when it is working correctly. Then he let me get behind the wheel for the driving portion. I went to put the car into reverse to back out of the stall it was in and there was a good sized stainless steel plaque at the base of the shifter on the center console that said "Powered by Microsoft" I just sort of sat there for a second staring at it, and the salesguy asked me if everything was OK. I then just put the car back into park and thanked him for his time and left...true story.
"All those moments, will be lost in time...like tears in rain..."
"Millions of millions of lines of code"
How many of those lines were just comments????
I still don't get it - why cars need so much software? Older cars worked quite well with just mechanical controls, so why there are so many computers in new cars?
From SAE's "Automotive Engineering International:"
Consumer radios and military communication devices were the mainstay of electronics usage prior to the late 1950s. When diodes, transistors, analog integrated circuits, and digital integrated circuits gained a vehicle applications foothold in the 1960s and 1970s, the initial development phase of automotive electronic products included the proliferation of electronic fuel ignition, a technology that was sparked by government regulations aimed at reducing exhaust emissions and improving fuel economy.
Engine controls, also an emissions and fuel economy-motivated pursuit, gained momentum in the late 1970s through the 1980s. For example, the 1975 Cadillac Seville used a 7 x 10 x 3 in (180 x 255 x 85 mm) analog engine control unit with 275 components. Its discrete components included 145 resistors, 38 capacitors, 41 transistors, and 36 diodes along with four linear integrated circuits (standard), custom components including five linear integrated circuits and one thick-film signal module, and five thick-film resistor modules.
As integrated circuit technology evolved, it became possible to design many of the functions into the integrated circuits, thus eliminating a lot of discreet components. Today's digital engine control unit has 90 or fewer components packaged in a box about 4 x 5 x 1 in (100 x 125 x 25 mm) {and] the downward trend in package size and number of components continues.
The second development wave added microprocessors and other enablers to the electronics bin, facilitating the addition of such vehicle features as anti-lock braking, electronic engine controls, and climate control during the 1980s. Electronic engine controls were representative of how the industry evolved vehicle subsystems.
With the addition of intelligent power, intelligent sensors, and large electrical erasable PROMs (essentially memory technology), integrated systems flourished in the 1990s. Integrated powertrain/traction control, integrated braking, steering and suspension, multiplexing, communication and navigation, as well as onboard diagnostics represent the broad array of smart systems.
The present development phase of automotive electronics includes such enablers as digital signal processing and 32-bit microprocessors. Computing power is now 40 times greater than what is was in 1975, and since that time the industry has experienced 300-fold growth in the number of transistors on a chip.
Electronics History Lesson [September 2002]
LOL!! this should be modded up.. because it's funny (and true!). However, he was a bit more expansive in his discussions. He probably would have said:
"We look deep into the the brain of this car, that is known as 'computer'. Millions upon millions of lines of code, all searching for the answer to a question the driver has already discovered...."
I am open source, and Linux baby!
... software is often designed from Use Cases?
They are the most singularly unhelpful and woefully incomplete design documents ever created.
They should be generated from the design, not the other way around.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Why someone would pay Jaguar prices for a Ford Contour.
really, this is not all that shocking to me.
I few years back when the Land rover LR3 (when Jag and LR were still with Ford) we took a brand new LR3 out into the desert with the LR team as part of a LR program that was offered.
Anyhow, at one particularly tricky bit (and I am an experienced off roader) the LR3's computer totally crashed to include engine management and suspension management.
What you may now know, is that the LR3 has a special off rood mode which raises the vehicle by several inches for better ground clearance. Well, one side went down, while the other stayed up. This happened to be the downhill off camber side and almost caused the LR3 to roll over.
Once we re-boot, ie. take out the key and restart the car it was fine though.
Still...lots of computers in the those rides and it's hard to catch everything.
Keep your drivers up to date.
There was an (apocryphal?) story that Lucas's ignition systems only worked at all because Joe Lucas had a pact with the Devil, and every time Joe wondered if he'd made a mistake, an ignition system failed somewhere.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
"hundreds of millions of lines of code"
quote from south park:
Mitch: W-we're not sure what exactly is going on inside the town of Beaverton, uh Tom, but we're reporting that there's looting, raping, and yes, even acts of cannibalism.
Tom: My God, you've, you've actually seen people looting, raping and eating each other?
Mitch: No, no, we haven't actually seen it Tom, we're just reporting it.
What OS(es) does the Jaguar XJ Super Sport run? It could be a mix of many, but does anyone have a list?
Many years ago, I was at Ford Aerospace, where we had some slight involvement with the Ford EEC IV engine control module. The designers of that were paranoid about a failure of the module making the car immobile. So they did the following:
Designers today are not being sufficiently paranoid. They're assuming that the entire system stays up and that tow trucks are easily available.
A small penis isn't the only thing you'll need to compensate for!
... when British cars were noted for leaking oil, not memory.
Yeah the British Car & Bike industries did kill themselves with a combination of crappy designs (Austin Allegro?) & Working practices.
Turn the clock forward to today.
The Automotive industry in the UK is amongst the most productive anywhere in the world.
It is also the home of the majority of the F1 teams.
As for bikes,
Triumph make some of the best & most reliable bikes around today.
So plese go back to reading your tomes of ancient history.
I ride Triumphs. Have done since 1969 when I bought my first T120. some were good ('69 T120). Some were pure crap('82 T140AV)
My current one is a 2004 T100. 60K miles on the clock. The only time it has let me down was a broken chain and that can affect any chain driven bike.
Ok?
Why aren't thermostats the round Honeywell mechanical jobs anymore? They worked.
Why are egg timers in your kitchen all electronic now? Mechanical timers worked.
Why does your washing machine have electronic controls now instead of the big mechanical dial with 4 modes on it?
Why is your electricity meter an electronic counter now instead of the mechanical spinning thing with 5 dials?
Why does the tape deck in your car have an electronic tuner instead of a dial, variable capacitor and a string loop with a needle on it to indicate the station?
Why are watches electronic (quartz) now instead of complex movements?
The answer is the same in all cases. It's because software and electronics are cheaper and do the job better than the old mechanical device did. Your washing machine can have more flexible modes, like the ability to extend the rinse cycle in increments, or even add a 3rd rinse. Your thermostat can have a setback mode to save energy when you aren't there. Your egg timer can be set to beep 5 minutes before the timer expires. Your electricity meter can count daytime electricity different than nighttime electricity. Your tape deck's tuner can select stations more accurately, have simpler preset stations (ever see how the 5 preset buttons on a radio with a tuner know worked? very complex) and is much smaller. Quartz watches keep time more accurately than mechanical watches, last longer and can have chronographs and other functions without adding a lot of cost.
And in the end, it's really the flexibility of software that wins out. Software can be programmed to do a lot more complex things and can be reprogrammed to do it slightly differently very cheaply, no need to change tooling as you would to change mechanical parts.
Remember what mechanical adding machines and cash registers looked like? What they worked like? A mechanical cash register had to have far more buttons (10 for each digit) and was limited in what it could do. Want to put in 5 identical items? You had to pull the lever or push sum 5 times. Meanwhile electronic cash registers don't just add. Sure they can calculate different tax rates on different items, that's just the beginning! You don't just put prices of items into the cash register, you put it items. And the cash register knows the price of the item, knows whether it has a special tax rate (like groceries sometimes do) and knows if you get a discount for buying 5 of them. And it also does inventory control, it sends info back to the central computer at the store to indicate they've sold 10 widgets. At the end of the day, the system figures out you've sold over 80% of the widgets in stock and the system suggests you order more widgets from your supplier.
That kind of "behind the scenes" stuff also takes place in cars. A modern car like this Jaguar emits fewer trace emissions in a year than your car does in a day and this is due to the tight engine control possible with a sensor package and control software.
A modern car knows if you're in the car. It unlocks the door if you're outside and pull the handle, it just senses your key (which is more of a fob) in your pocket. It auto locks when you get out. When you're inside, all you have to do to start it is touch a button, since it knows the key is inside, you don't have to insert it into a lock (and mechanical locks wear out, as I'm sure you with a 30 year old car can attest). When you touch the button, it cranks the car until it starts, no less, no more. No need to hold down the button until the engine catches. And if the car is already running it doesn't try to start the car and make a screeching sound. While its running, if your turn on the A/C and it puts more idle load on the engine, it applies more idle throttle to the engine so that it doesn't stall. If you let out the clutch a little too fast, it applies throttle to prevent a stall there too. If you put the clutch in and the gas at the same time, it will cut the engine off at 4,000 rpm to prevent over rev damage. You have an electronic parking brak
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Its depressingly sad that they can't at least implement watch dogs that actually work. If they could get that wrong god knows what else is fucked up about these vechicles.
I hope that the braking systems does not crash like this as doing a hard power off reset is not easy to do at speed.
From TFA: ...watching too much Eminem on its integrated DVD player.
Well, there's your problem.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
I was looking through a BMW sales brochure from `81 and among the features that they were promoting at that time which have since been abandoned was one that I love: "An absence of the irrelevant"
Good call @purplerasion!!!!!
But we all know is......wait for it.........
42!!!!
A good friend of mine crashed a Minardi F1 car a few years ago. The car was pulling out of the garage during testing and stalled un-expectedly. The team spent a while trying to find the source of the problem until my friend realised what was going on and suggested unpluging the in-car cameras (which my friend was installing for the whole grid) from the CANBUS. That fixed the problem.
No other cars were effected by the bug.
I will never, EVER buy a car that does not at minimum have the steering wheel mechanically linked to the front wheels, and the brake pedal mechanically linked to the master cylinder; where it is IMPOSSIBLE for the computer to get in the way.
Is that you, Sir Lucas? Was your death greatly exaggerated?
This time, it can't be fixed by a shot of wd-40 in the distributor cap..
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
Clearly they were driving around like reckless idiots so the car's computer clearly interceded and refused to let the start the car again the next day. When the technician arrived, nothing was wrong, but after looking at the data from the boys previous wild joyrides, he decided that the car would be best returned to Jaguar, all the while mumbling about something about 11 million lines of code and systems crashing.
zosxavius photography
Obiously the real question is why the system is running floppy.sys - is there really a need for that in an XJS?
Don't get me wrong, I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy. Their monopolistic practices appall me and their unspeakable marketing leaves me cold.
But let's get one thing straight. MS Windows is unarguably one of the greatest achievements made by mankind. It 'just works' on any computer. Windows has empowered literally millions of people to start using a computer who otherwise wouldn't have.
It's just a (terrible) shame that it is in the hands of one proprietary company.
Just this week I downloaded Ubuntu 10.04 and I did a trial run on one of my computers. It didn't recognize that computer's network adapter. So no Internet. I was reduced to trying out the default-installed Suduko program. What use is an OS if it doesn't even let you go on the net?
Disclaimer: I don't work for Microsoft, I'm not an MS shill, and I'm not trying to bash Linux (actually I like Linux and I hope it succeeds)
And to finish, this story doesn't even have anything to do with Windows, or even the famous Windows blue screen of death, it's a proprietary system (not Microsoft's) that failed. Shame on the editors for trying to demonize Microsoft when Microsoft wasn't even involved in the first place.
Today all new cars have several onboard computer systems controlling various functions from brakes to fuel to suspension. The real surprise is not that this car has a problem, but that other cars don't! I have to say that this is a real pat-on-the-back for the programmers writing this code as we don't see this in any other discipline I am aware of
lyThey've had notorious faulty electrical systems for decades.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
iirc, in the US, the brakes still have to some mechanical linkage. My ABS can fight me to the death, but if I stand on the pedal, the car is going to stop. Thankfully, the ABS crashes by ceasing to function, I would HOPE all the time.
.
Yes... I want a car with points, a coil and a battery for ignition.
.
Lights are nice too.
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And perhaps a wireless.
.
Computers? Lines of code?
.
forget it.
.
.
Voting up, Voting down - If I really gave a fuck about your approval or not, I'd come and ask you.
An unforseen glitch somewhere within the car's dozens of separate onboard computers, hundreds of millions of lines of code, or its internal vehicular network, led to the dramatic BSOD, which had to be resolved with the use of a web-connected laptop.
That's nothing, the new Jag has at least two even more serious flaws that will hamper marketing efforts - the price tag, and the fact that it looks a lot like a Buick.
Also, I'm not advocating going back to carburetors or anything, but I'm also not sure a car needs to rely on "hundreds of millions of lines of code" or "dozens" of computers. Who is the chief engineer of this project, Rube Goldberg IV?
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
Curiously, whatever problem caused the XJ to crash also caused it not to respond to the laptop's reboot command, meaning we had to treat this £90,000 Jag like we do our janky old HP laptop: we disconnected the battery, killed the power and restarted it manually.
Even the cheapest Desktop/Laptop will respond to holding down the power button for a while and does not require the removal of the power cords/batteries. That is a serious design flaw.
I wonder how long it will take until this error happens while someone is going at MAXSPEED.
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
I usually respond with 'And by literally, you mean metaphorically.' But I guess your idea is cool too. :)
"I got called crazy when I brought up this site's anti-MS pro-linux slant yesterday. The thing was running Linux and it's stillbeing blamed on Microsoft!" - by WiglyWorm (1139035) on Saturday August 14, @11:39AM (#33250898) Homepage
Well, you've got to understand 1 thing around here: Per my subject-line above, there's just WAY TOO MANY *NIX "fanboy zealots" around here, as well as "firefox fanboy zealots" too.
They're SO bad that they'll outright "gang up" on you if you state any facts to the negative about either Linux or FireFox especially (& to a lesser extent, Chrome or BSD variant OS like MacOS for example or FreeBSD)...
Additionally: YES, you're absolutely correct in that you'll get called ALL kinds of names here if you upset the "pecking order" that is established around here by the masses (not really, 'they're' just usually a single user using multiple registered accounts here, for use as shills/trolls here really), however, you can rest assured that the rest of us don't have their "reality distortion screen" applied (or worse yet, that we're not hired shills for those parties either that are called "online perception management firms" (i.e. paid shills on forums etc./et al - in fact, you can ask Mr. Bruce Perens about that as he posts here and is a known figure in the LINUX world)), &/or that we realize they are either paid for hire shills OR dwelling in their illusions SO badly, they even bullshit themselves... & usually, QUITE badly!
"DISCLAIMER":
I am, admittedly, QUITE the "Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003/Windows7 fanboy" (especially the latter 2 OS' from Microsoft)
DISCLAIMER TO MY "DISCLAIMER" ABOVE:
HOWEVER, even I know when Windows variants are not as good as they can or should be, & I have even confronted and "put down" (told the truth via tests & facts on rather) Windows 7 to a senior mgt. figure here for MS in their "Windows Client Performance Division" in ForeDecker (MS senior mgt. VP figure who posts here) & he admitted I had a point on HOSTS files, DNS Cache Client service & more in Windows VISTA/Server 2008/7. I will call a spade a spade when need be in other words, whether it's my fav, OS or not...
On the reverse/flipside??
I will say that Linux has merits as I have here http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1750240&cid=33214838 & here recently in fact (during my vacation this summer in europe I am testing both PC-BSD & KUbuntu Linuhttp://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1754504&cid=33255564x on a laptop & actually LIKING them nowadays at least. They're truly "getting there", @ last, imo @ least (I have been testing linux & bsd variants on the job and at home since 1994)).
Still, if you say 1 thing bad about Linux or other *NIX variants around here though, by way of comparison? Prep yourself for flaming and blatantly off topic ad hominem attacks & more (especially if you used facts to bolster your points and the words + tests of respected & reputable others/sites online etc., as to the latter ad hominem + off topic attack techniques the Linux/FireFox fanboy trolls & paid for shills utilize when they are clearly "on the ropes" & beaten).
APK
P.S.=> In other words/in short: Don't sweat it - the rest of us recognize when normal honest folks post a valid point and the trolls/shills under their "reality distortion shields" & paid for trolling give those like you a hard time, & especially when they have to resort to flaming ad hominem attacks, grammar/spellcheck off-topic type b.s. & the like... now, I predict this post of mine will be downmodded to hell, but at least I told it how it is, as have you! apk
if the entertainment system has a Linux-instance in it, then bloody-right it's got hellazillions of limes of code ( even though lemons have more vitamin-c, and therefore are better for travelling across the "pond" with )...
pull the current sources, today, and count the lines ( manually ), and get back to us when you discover whether "hundreds of millions" would take 2 or 3 instances of Linux running in the machine,
AND when you've figured-out whether there are 2 or more different versions of Linux in the car...
ON TOP OF the code running on it, the libs for the other modules, etc...
Cheerses, dood...
Have you tried turning the car off and back on?"
This is why I prefer my 2000 Jeep TJ with zip up windows, manual fold-down top, manual adjusting mirrors, and where the most technologically advanced item is the RFID chip in the key and ignition. That way the government can't shut down my car with a few strokes on the keyboard, and that would be hacker-serial killer won't be able to control my car :P.
Fly by wire has been around longer than drive by wire ...