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Stallman Crashes Talk, Fights 'War On Sharing'

schliz writes "Free software activist Richard Stallman has called for the end of the 'war on sharing' at the World Computer Congress in Brisbane, Australia. He criticized surveillance, censorship, restrictive data formats, and software-as-a-service in a keynote presentation, and asserted that digital society had to be 'free' in order to be a benefit, and not an attack. Earlier in the conference, Stallman had briefly interrupted a European Patent Office presentation with a placard that said: 'Don't get caught in software patent thickets.' He told journalists that the Patent Office was 'here to campaign in favor of software patents in Australia,' arguing that 'there's no problem that requires a solution with anything like software patents.'"

309 comments

  1. I don't care what anyone says by rolfwind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd prefer Stallman's outspoken extremism vs the quiet extremism that corporations would place us under if no one spoke up.

    1. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Megaweapon · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I'd prefer Stallman's outspoken extremism vs the quiet extremism that corporations would place us under if no one spoke up.

      Right, because a patent troll interrupting a FSF convention would be viewed as just as legitimate.

      --
      I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
    2. Re:I don't care what anyone says by koterica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I always prefer the extremists on my side to the extremists on the other side too.

    3. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think anyone has any issues with Stallman sharing his own work voluntarily - I think some people draw the line at stunts like this where he calls for universal adherence to his third and fourth 'freedoms' (to distribute the software; and to modify and distribute modified copies of the code).

      Your post assumes that only the black and white extremes exist - nothing could be further from the truth, luckily. There is a whole world in between the two.

    4. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a difference. Patent advocates are in the business of conspiring against the public to line their own pockets. The FSF represents public interests and has nothing to hide. Crashing the patent troll party makes a much more powerful statement, imo.

    5. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a difference. Patent advocates are in the business of conspiring against the public to line their own pockets. The FSF represents public interests and has nothing to hide.

      Not saying I'm for or against software patents, but you do realize that "patent advocates" are citizens of the public, too, right? And that owners of corporations are citizens? They have exactly as much right as the FSF to argue what the interests of the public are.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    6. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Happy+Nuclear+Death · · Score: 3, Funny

      I always prefer the extremists on my side to the extremists on the other side too.

      To borrow a turn of phrase, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to both.

    7. Re:I don't care what anyone says by mapkinase · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The notion of "extremism" is based on the notion that majority always represent somewhat "middle", "balanced" or "common-sensical" or "best" or etc. position, while in fact majority always represents just the most marketed, the most advertised, the most imposed position. That is for situations when wide public is involved.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    8. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If there were no extremists on your side, then by definition you would be the extremist and people would label you as such. Say what you will about liberal extremists, conservative extremists, environmental extremists, animal rights extremists and so on and so fourth. The fact is that without these people you and me would be labeled and written off as extremists.

      I'm a big fan of extremism, as long as nobody gets injured or killed and no property gets destroyed.

    9. Re:I don't care what anyone says by u17 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Patent advocates represent their corporations, because it is the corporations that own the patents, not the advocates themselves. Corporations are legal persons but are not citizens. There is no equivalence there.

    10. Re:I don't care what anyone says by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, I think that all extremists should be killed to ensure that the debate remains moderate! Oh, wait ...

      It's also worth mentioning that if you immediately dismiss all extremists, you limit the debate to those ideas which the powers that be have deemed "mainstream" and acceptable. Extremists are the ones that change what is considered mainstream.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    11. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lucky though they have far more money so that means their opinions are more important right?

    12. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference. Patent advocates are in the business of conspiring against the public to line their own pockets. The FSF represents public interests and has nothing to hide.

      Not saying I'm for or against software patents, but you do realize that "patent advocates" are citizens of the public, too, right? And that owners of corporations are citizens? They have exactly as much right as the FSF to argue what the interests of the public are.

      and corporations are high paying citizens

    13. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is a patent advocate advocating patents as a member of the public (i.e., thinking about the common good), or in a different capacity (e.g., patent lawyer, businessman, or someone else with vested interests who would benefit personally from patents)? In this instance, I believe patent advocates are only looking out for themselves, and are working against the interests of the public -- so it's fair and prudent to set them apart. As for the FSF (and EFF etc), I don't see them trying to profit from their activism at the expense of the greater good.

    14. Re:I don't care what anyone says by oiron · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As long as those "citizens" have only as much right to put forth their views as Stallman, and not, say, a couple of dozen legislators in their pockets, I might just agree there.

      Considering, however, that they tend to spam the entire argument, and then use undue influence to enact measures that are only in their own selfish interests, and detrimental to the general common good, I give them much less benefit of the doubt.

    15. Re:I don't care what anyone says by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Funny

      A patent troll trying to interrupt an FSF convention would be going into the lion's den.

      I don't think anyone from the FSF would object.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    16. Re:I don't care what anyone says by LaminatorX · · Score: 1

      There is no equivalence there. Stallman's cause is just. Theirs is greed.

    17. Re:I don't care what anyone says by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What some people would like to characterize here as "extremism" is merely a slightly older form of the status quo.

      If RMS could be declared an "extremist" at all in this situation is merely a reflection that most people are entirely ignorant and apathetic on this subject.

      This is one argument where RMS is not an extremist at all.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    18. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

      I'd suggest going to a F/OSS event in an area with a depressed economy. Someone could shout out that and criticism of patents is an offense again America and Jesus and you won't hear a word. They just want a job from the well connected guy at the podium.

    19. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DavoMan · · Score: 1

      stallman just has balls. he has the balls to do this, although i really wish he had more people with him and more effective signs. like LEDs and such. I would happily stand there with stallman if I was aware of this crap going on.

      --
      Whats the harm in yelling 'Computer, end program!'? You could be living in Star Trek! Go on.. give it a try.
    20. Re:I don't care what anyone says by CODiNE · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So THAT'S why moderate muslims don't denounce the crazies. I get it now thanks.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    21. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Citizens own corporations. The corporation's interest is their interest.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    22. Re:I don't care what anyone says by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      There is no equivalence there. Stallman's cause is just. Theirs is greed.

      While I agree with you, it is just a matter of perspective. There is nothing inherently good about information being "free" aside from the benefits that people will receive from the information. Some people have an interest in keeping information closed.

      Hopefully when more people think like us than think like them we can get our way. Not that our way is somehow the "right" way, just that it works for us.

    23. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I'd prefer Stallman's outspoken extremism vs the quiet extremism that corporations would place us under if no one spoke up.

      So do I, but...

      "He criticized surveillance, censorship, restrictive data formats, and software-as-a-service..."

      Ummm, so if I create a web application and offer it as a paid service ("software-as-a-service"), somehow I've run afoul of Mr Stallman's utopian vision of freedom? Sorry, but this is how I make my living. I create a web service, offer it to people that want to use it, and they pay a fee yearly to do so. How is this "wrong" in his world view? Should I not be permitted to do this as per his notion of right and wrong, or have I misunderstood his position?

    24. Re:I don't care what anyone says by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      This is probably one of the best comments I have ever read on slashdot, thank you for your contribution!

    25. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Right, because a patent troll interrupting a FSF convention would be viewed as just as legitimate."

      I agree that it would not be taken as the same and acceptable, but that is because most people don't think that what is good for the rape survivor is good for the rapist. You are basically asserting there is something wrong with finding it OK for a rape survivor to speak out about rape while simultaneously not finding it OK for a rapist to show up and speak about the wonderful benefits of raping people. Yes, my example is extreme, but it seems some people can't see a difference unless it is painted with a very large paintbrush dipped in fluorescent paint.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    26. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Yvanhoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't know... I have many arguments to oppose to extremists (on my side or against my side) but I don't like to call RMS an extremist because his views and positions are coherent, rational and come with arguments. He is uncompromising, that's sure, but does that make one an extremist ?

      Uncompromising, sure. Idealist, hell yes, but extremist ? How so ? Does he advocate violence ? Does he say we must break laws ? Come one... I like RMS in that he doesn't care about what is reasonable, what is consensual, he cares about his point and defends it.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    27. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2, Informative

      "They have exactly as much right as the FSF to argue what the interests of the public are."

      I don't think anybody would argue that point, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that they are not arguing for public interest. That is merely the lie that they are telling, while they argue what is in the best interest of a select few rich people.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    28. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Racist murderers are citizens too. Doesn't make em right and doesn't make their view legitimate. No one is arguing against patent advocates right to free speech. Rather their ability to buy laws.

    29. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer Stallman's outspoken extremism vs the quiet extremism that corporations would place us under if no one spoke up.

      Right, because a patent troll interrupting a FSF convention would be viewed as just as legitimate.

      By what possible contortion of reality would that be true? Your premise seems to be be that Stallman's rationale is possessed of equal merit to that of the patent troll, a premise that is rather far from "given".

    30. Re:I don't care what anyone says by idontgno · · Score: 2, Informative

      Devil's advocate time!

      The corporate good is the public good.

      "...I thought that what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa."

      --Charles Wilson, then President of General Motors[emphasis mine]

      This snippet is often misquoted "What's good for General Motors is good for the country." But the literal misquoting is probably accurately characterized as a paraphrase, because the idea is embedded there, and I think a lot of people take it seriously.

      That's the political philosophy Freedom advocates are up against. "Software patents are good for software companies, and therefore good for the nation." While economic processes aren't generally zero-sum, stuff surrounding intellectual property issues are significantly closer to "win-lose" than other components of capitalism, especially in the fast-moving arenas of computer technology.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    31. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      Sure it's a job but I don't hear MS speaking-out for the rights of janitors. Often they do just the opposite. ... citation?

      I just can't imagine a press release wherein any corporation comes out and says: "We think janitors have too many rights. Less rights would be good." That's a stretch even for Walmart to admit. Essentially, I think you've said something fairly ridiculous as though it were obviously true.

    32. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      stallman just has balls. he has the balls to do this

      I don't agree -- for doing something to require balls, you have to be risking something to do it. Oh, no! Now that Stallman's taking this gutsy stance, someone might think he's some kind of crazed free software loving hippie! Well, most people probably would think that, if they knew who he was.

      That's not to say that I disagree with his viewpoint, but the man risks nothing in doing this.

    33. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Richard_at_work · · Score: 0, Troll

      Really? Not accepting anything other than complete access to source code (which I disagree with), complete freedom to redistribute (which I disagree with) and complete freedom to modify (which you could say I disagree with because it requires both prior freedoms) isn't an extreme view? What would be the extreme view here then?

    34. Re:I don't care what anyone says by hedwards · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wrong, extremism is hardly the same thing as being at the extreme of a distribution.

      It implies a group which has chosen to remove itself from discourse because the views were not going far enough and could not be changed via socially acceptable means. A brilliantly clear example is the Tea Party movement. They've chosen not to make a good faith effort at public debate in favor of more extreme tactics to get their way. It's not the fact that they want a more extreme party platform which makes them extremists.

      A political figure other than Hitler made to look like Hitler is generally a pretty good indication that you're dealing with extremists. Although it's hardly a necessary condition.

    35. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Who says they don't? Only stat I've heard on that was that 95% of muslims denounce AlQuaeda (the other 5% being the crazies). I've heard this sentiment a lot and it makes me sad. What is different between the parent's statement and this one:

      "Did Glenn Beck rape and murder a young girl in 1990? We're not saying he's guilty, but he won't deny it!"

    36. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      I completely disagree with that philosophy. Adversity for corporations (i.e., lack of monopolies, fierce competition etc) is good for the public, but potentially bad for their shareholders. Cozy monopolies and lack of competition is good for corporations (who get to set their own price-points and don't need to invest and innovate), but obviously bad for the public.

      The vast majority of people aren't shareholders, so by making life easy for corporations you are taking money away from the many and giving it to the few. Essentially, you are creating an aristocracy.

    37. Re:I don't care what anyone says by ThatMegathronDude · · Score: 1

      Good for a country != good for mankind

      This mentality of us vs. them has been holding humanity back and tearing it down bit by bit is a necessary process to improve humanity.

    38. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Citizens own STOCK in corporations. Corporations own government officials.

    39. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is which one is actually acting in the interest of the public. Just because someone has the right to freedom of speech doesn't make their speech equally correct or valid. The right to free speech includes the right to be a lying moron.

    40. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed
      He may be batshit insane and chews on his toes, but its better him than nothing.

    41. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stallman is not advocating that you be forced to adhere to the beliefs of the FSF. The GPL is a voluntary license based on copyright. Software patent advocates would like their beliefs to become legal everywhere, forcing everyone to comply with them.

      An extreme view on copyright or patents would be a demand for their immediate dissolution. Software patents are a relatively recent legal phenomenon recognized in only some countries. Arguing against them is far from extreme.

    42. Re:I don't care what anyone says by zombieChan51 · · Score: 1

      "Uncompromising, sure. Idealist, hell yes, but extremist ? How so ? Does he advocate violence ? Does he say we must break laws ? " Following the laws and not advocating violence do doesn't mean some one is not a extremist. Look at the Westboro Church, they follow the laws, and they don't advocate violence. A lot of people say they're extremists.

    43. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Ok, with the caveat that I dislike software patents and (on this one point at least) agree with Stallman, your argument here is bullshit. If I legitimately believe that software patents are a good thing, regardless of whether I think this because it will help me personally or not, then I have exactly as much right to present this opinion as Stallman has to present his opinion. To say otherwise is simply to advocating the reduction of the right of free expression down to "I think people should have the right to express any opinion I agree with". Some people believe that software patents are in the public good. Some people believe that corporate interests intersect with public interest (or at least do so more often than you believe they do). Telling those people to shut up simply because their opinion on what is in the "public interest" differs from yours is, in fact, the heart of censorship and the opposite of the freedom you claim to want.

      tl;dr People have the right to say that they should have fewer rights. You can't reasonably argue for "freedom" and then say that some people's opinions should get legal primacy over other people's opinions.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    44. Re:I don't care what anyone says by hazah · · Score: 1

      "There is nothing inherently good about information being "free" aside from the benefits that people will receive from the information."

      Do you really not see the problem with that statement?

    45. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      His uncompromising attitude on issues which cannot be resolved without compromise make him an extremist. There is no possible way we'll ever live in a world of pure free software in Stallman's lifetime. He can never win. Any reasonable outside observer can see this. The work he wants to do is the work of decades or even centuries spent readjusting attitudes and gaining mindshare. He could move things in that direction if he were willing to take small bites, make compromises here and there to advance the overall agenda, etc. He's not.

      He's taken an extreme (for our society) viewpoint and refuses to give any ground. He refuses to say "Hey, that's a nice move in the right direction, we should do more of that." It's always "Well, that might be a small step in the right direction, but fix the rest of it. Now! Immediately. Make it the way I want it!"

      I'm not saying, per se, that he's wrong. It's possible that he's made more progress this way than he would of with compromise. I don't know. That's not really the point. He's taken an "extreme" position and refuses to budge in any way. That sounds like the definition of "extremist" to me. We associate violence with extremism (because most people who get violent about a matter are extremists), but not all extremists are violent.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    46. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are all looking out for ourselves. Every single one of us is part of a special interest group in one way or another, be it organized business, grass-roots organizations or a member of the general public with an opinion on public policy. Thinking about the public good is idealism in a system set against you -- like in poker, you may on occasion but in the end the house always wins. Groups like the FSF (and EFF, etc) are working against free-for-all capitalism. This is a good thing as there needs to be balance (and right now the balance is in corporate favor) but it can go too far the other direction.

      What I'm saying is, this is the wrong argument.

      Those arguing a side, any side, are doing so for their own benefit. You won't find member's of patent-holding corporations arguing against the patents of their business because that goes against your own interest's. The same is true of any other group.

      Patent advocates != working against the public and the opposite is true for patent opponents. Step back from the glass and look at the whole system. This (and other similar issues) are simply a symptom of a larger problem.

      The problem lies with policy-makers who cow to the all-mighty dollar shuffled to them under the table by lobbyists. Corporate interests have become far too powerful and influential. Government systems who allow corporate lobbying are corrupt. The only way to fix this corruption is to start at the top and axe those political figures who practice anti-public interests such as: gerrymandering, earmarking, direct ties to corporation x, y or z, etc. We cannot stop corruption but we have allowed those in power to argue that it is in our benefit and therefore their corruption is for the social good (i.e. this bill is for the Children! -- even though our earmarks give most of the money to Wall Street and the military industrial complex).

      If the public organizes and goes after the policy-makers, it attacks corporate power where it is weakest. This is how to change policy in a democracy. This is how to fight for the public interest. Squabbling about corporate influence this/that over policy X without making an effort to change the system is a pointless endeavor. Take all that effort and channel it into a real political movement and maybe we'll get somewhere. Right now, we're just spinning our idealist wheels and in the end, the house will win.

    47. Re:I don't care what anyone says by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 0

      Really? How much "interest" does the janitor cleaning Microsoft's floors really have?

      None because the janitor is not one of those citizens who owns Microsoft. Epic failz in economics right there.

      Sure it's a job but I don't hear MS speaking-out for the rights of janitors.

      It's not MS job to speak about the rights of others except for its own.

      Often they do just the opposite.

      Example please.

      Which is why Corporations, Rocks, Trees, and other things should all be treated the same - no rights.

      Rocks and trees do not pay taxes, nor provide payroll to employees, nor conduct business. Corporations do. And if you argue that corporations have obligations (obey the lay ,pay taxes and incur in expenses for their day to day operations), then they are also entitled of rights. As much as you would like to do so for the sake of building strawmen, you can't divorce obligations from rights.

      If you don't have a right to vote in the ballot box, neither should you have any of the other rights.

      In that case my 20-month old daughter has no rights since she cannot vote in the ballot box.

      Let Human Rights be for humans. Only.

      Not all rights are human rights, not even those enjoyed by humans. Stop the rhetorical nonsense.

    48. Re:I don't care what anyone says by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      No, in fact I don't. Anthropomorphizing information is silly and only serves to raise people's hackles. Society benefits when information is free, usually. So in that respect as a society we want to ensure that the information we want to be free remains free. But the good does not come from the absence of restrictions, the good comes from our consumption and application of the information. Free information is a means to an end, but is not itself "good".

      The poster I replied to said:

      Stallman's cause is just. Theirs is greed.

      My point is that this is simply a matter of perspective. Neither cause is in and of itself "Right" or "Wrong", both parties are pushing for their own interests. Remember that I am of the opinion that open information will have a generally net benefit to society, but also remember that this is just an opinion. Not a universal truth.

    49. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      I never said "that some people's opinions should get legal primacy over other people's opinions". I'm arguing that the well-being of corporations should always take second place to the well-being of the public at large.

    50. Re:I don't care what anyone says by melikamp · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone has any issues with Stallman sharing his own work voluntarily

      Actually, plenty of people are. If Stallman was to fix a bug in Windows 7 where it stops working when it cannot phone home, there would be helluva effort to prevent him from distributing the working code: all his own original work.

    51. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My extremism is multicolored... (no I'm not homosexual... sailor.)

    52. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      While economic processes aren't generally zero-sum, stuff surrounding intellectual property issues are significantly closer to "win-lose" than other components of capitalism, especially in the fast-moving arenas of computer technology.

      It's worse than that. Software patents cause more "lose" than "win" -- imagine a company that owns a software patent covering what a lot of people want to do that stands to lose a million dollars if they do it, but that group would collectively benefit to the tune of ten million dollars by doing it. So the patent holder says "no you can't" and the economy loses 9 million dollars in benefits. (The theory software patent advocates put forth is that the patent holder could license the patent and demand at least a million dollars in license fees, but in practice this hardly ever happens because of transaction costs, imperfect information and corporate bravado, and even when it does happen the transaction costs still eat a huge chunk out of the benefits.)

    53. Re:I don't care what anyone says by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even under favorable conditions for a corporation, shareholders may not see much benefit. The sort of leadership that schemes for unfair advantage by encouraging uncritical reporting by the mainstream media, regulatory capture, rent seeking, tax breaks, and the like isn't going to be fair to shareholders either. With collusion from the board that they packed with "friends", they'll cheerfully pay themselves huge bonuses that come straight off the value of the stock, and brag about how deserving they are. That sort of thing devalues stock similar to the way that printing more money devalues money. The public barely notices as long as they don't get too greedy. Let just enough of any gains trickle down to the stock price to keep the company solvent and close to market norms. Helps appear more normal when everyone is doing it. I have not heard of any American company where the upper management's pay isn't outrageous. I suppose if there are any, they're the ones you don't hear about. Our corporate governance is seriously broken.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    54. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Patent advocates represent their corporations, because it is the corporations that own the patents, not the advocates themselves. Corporations are legal persons but are not citizens. There is no equivalence there.

      In this instance, I believe patent advocates are only looking out for themselves, and are working against the interests of the public -- so it's fair and prudent to set them apart.

      Both of these quotes seem to suggest otherwise. You would give secondary status to opinions which, in your opinion, "are working against the interests of the public", or belong to the corporations. It doesn't matter that these people are looking out for themselves or their corporation, their opinions cannot be considered of lesser value (in the sense of rights or public forum, obviously I agree with you that they have lower intellectual value). If I'm a patents lobbyist, I may only be saying what I am paid to say. I may also passionately believe what I am saying, and, hey, bonus, someone is paying to me to follow my bliss.

      Not all patents are owned by corporations, not all advocates for the patent system are corporate shills, not all corporate shills are actually being dishonest (actively dishonest, they may be spouting incorrect information, but they may well really believe it). For this simple reason it's *not* "fair and prudent to set them apart."

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    55. Re:I don't care what anyone says by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      My view of extremism is attempting to advocate or push a change that will very difficult or impossible to implement on a scale needed to achieve full success.

      So Stallman is unwilling to accept that there are companies who employes hundreds/thousands of people who are paid at rare Middle Income brackets to write software, and being that most companies will not be the most ethical so they will need to keep their source closed as not to give their competition their advantage in their market. Leaving software that took millions of dollars of development to be taken over by a company who may be one or two employees. Thus giving a negative impact. So in order to change to an open model you will need to change all the businesses who makes money in that way. Which will be difficult or impossible. Yes you can have a lot of small successes but to do the overall goal it will not happen.

      Stallman has self stated that if you disagree with him you are part of the corporate corruption. That is also part of extremist thinking where if you are not part of their solution then you are part of the problem.

      Moderate solutions are ones that try to get the most good done without trying to shake things up too much. Yes it sounds kinda wimpy compared to the Action Hero Approach of forcing the world into a new order. But in many cases it is much more useful.

      Should Stallman be the Hero of the current success of Open Source... No I would say IBM, Red Hat, Apache, and even a lot of the Unix venders who compromised allowing many of the open source tools replace their propriety ones. They did incremental changes they did it in a way which didn't scare everyone that a new order will come out with considering the consequences. They were OK for comerical use of Open Source and Mixing Closed Source apps and Open Source apps together to create a solution.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    56. Re:I don't care what anyone says by wen1454 · · Score: 0

      The misconception is that Richard Stallman is stopping or hindering the “quiet extremism” of corporations. People like Richard Stallman actually hurt software freedom by promoting ideas that are not convincing to policymakers largely because they are bad ideas. Software developers need to make money, and Richard Stallman’s proposals would make this much more difficult. A better solution would be no software patents and shorter copyright that encourages open source software (e.g. 9 years of copyright protection for closed source software and 14 years for open source software). This would greatly increase the amount of free software without jeopardizing the livelihoods of software developers.

    57. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is one argument where RMS is not an extremist at all.

      True, but he *is* a ninja:
      xkcd

    58. Re:I don't care what anyone says by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Patent advocates are in the business of conspiring against the public to line their own pockets.

      "to line their own pockets". Translation: to make a living, earn a wage, have money to eat.

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

      So I guess the Constitution is "conspiring against the public"?

    59. Re:I don't care what anyone says by hey! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      while in fact majority always represents just the most marketed, the most advertised, the most imposed position.

      [emphasis mine]

      OK, as a first approximation, you are right, but to say "always" is to overstate the case. There is no question that people who invest in propaganda don't do so out of naiveté... they expect a return on their investment. They expect to wield public sentiment like a tool, but it is a treacherous tool.

      I think propaganda works best when it is directs people's attention away from their day to day lives, as opposed to changing their assessment of those lives. You can say, "your life is hell because of the Jews" or "you are insecure because of the homosexual agenda." You can't say, "your life is actually pretty good so far as the world standard of living is concerned," even if that is true. You can't say "it's actually quite easy to get a job; people who don't have jobs are just lazy," unless you are talking to somebody with a secure job.

      If you could simply manufacture the opinions you wanted, then the public would have continued to favor the Iraq war in the run up to the 2008 elections, but the war had gone on so long that people were touched by it in some way, by a family member, friend or colleague who was deployed and maybe didn't come back. Likewise the Democrats are going to pay in 2010 because they can't credibly claim to have improved peoples' lives in the twenty months they've had power. That's common in mid-term elections.

      In such cases, propaganda has a way of turning on its masters.

      Perhaps we should evaluate people's political sanity not on their absolute position on some political axis, but on their open or narrow mindedness. A political position becomes pernicious fantasy, no matter where it is on your favorite philosophical axis, when it willfully ignores the probable outcomes of the actions it advocates.

      For example, other people with me on the left favored single payer health insurance or even a socialized medical system during the recent debates on health insurance reform. While I am philosophically well disposed to these things, I did not favor them at that time. I thought if they were enacted that existing businesses would immediately collapse, and that working public replacements could not be conjured into existence quickly enough to take their place. Now I realize many who prefer socialized medicine or single payer (not the same things at all by the way) might disagree with that assessment. They may even be right. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. I moderated my position based on a critical examination of the likely outcomes of my *ideal* solution. That examination might be faulty, but I did not twist my evaluation of the facts in order to justify my a priori position.

      It's tricky to evaluate the political sanity of a figure like Stallman. He is very, very bright,and bright people have a way of finding credible sounding rationalizations for really ill considered opinions. That said, I think that Stallman's positions on the viability of free software sound a lot more credible today than they did twenty years ago. True, free software projects haven't produced viable competition in a number of important niches; but after two decades of experience with free software success, it isn't so hard to believe that a free software ecosystem could meet all the software needs of an individual or enterprise.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    60. Re:I don't care what anyone says by lgw · · Score: 1

      Your lies about the Tea Party do nothing to justify your personal definiton of "extremism". If voting out incumbants counts as "extremism" (and some of those incumbants who lost their primaries seem to think it does), how can democracy work?

      A political figure other than Hitler made to look like Hitler is generally a pretty good indication that you're dealing with extremists

      I seriously doubt all the protesters carrying Bushitler signs for 8 years were extremists - again, your definition seems to be only your own.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    61. Re:I don't care what anyone says by lgw · · Score: 1

      If any of the post-9/11 acts of violence by muslims have been denounced by the thought leaders of Islam, I've never once heard it. Apparantly neither have the terrorists. Perhaps they should denounce louder.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    62. Re:I don't care what anyone says by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      Which is why Corporations, Rocks, Trees, and other things should all be treated the same - no rights. If you don't have a right to vote in the ballot box, neither should you have any of the other rights.

      I disagree : trees have rights too . Just because they can't speak up , doesn't mean everyone should be free to do as they please with them.

    63. Re:I don't care what anyone says by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Citizens own cats. The cats' interests are their owners' interests.

      Corporations (sometimes) own wage slaves. The corporations' interests are their slaves' interests.

      Your statement is just as inane, but you don't see it because you choose to ignore completely the fact that large corporations are super-organisms who have their own agendas.

    64. Re:I don't care what anyone says by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      . And if you argue that corporations have obligations (obey the lay ,pay taxes and incur in expenses for their day to day operations), then they are also entitled of rights. As much as you would like to do so for the sake of building strawmen, you can't divorce obligations from rights.

      I agree on principle , however :
      As long as companies can bend the law ( by lobbying to have laws changed ) , they have the ability to get more rights , while having less obligations.

      But this is not the fault of the companies . They just try to get the maximum of out it , like anyone else . The problem is with the government , who allows this to happen.

    65. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Patents can often be nearer to lose-lose; the patent is a monopoly to exercise a particular idea, if the patent holder lacks the resources to implement the idea fully, then society loses.

      Probably in most cases, society as a whole can use the idea better than the owner can, just by weight of numbers.

    66. Re:I don't care what anyone says by osgeek · · Score: 1

      Yeah, red lights are flashing in my mind when someone claims to have my interests at heart vs some other party.

      I don't like the patenting of software, but I dislike hypocrisy even more.

    67. Re:I don't care what anyone says by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      That would work if everyone was allowed to same amount of stock ( it would be interesting , as the people could then control not only the government , but also the market )
      Now , the rich citizens have more stock , and as such , more power.

      You can compare it with some people being allowed to vote multiple times , while others only get 1 vote.

    68. Re:I don't care what anyone says by osgeek · · Score: 1

      What are the interests of the public? I think that elements of the patent system have greatly benefitted the public. So advocates for some degree of patents have been on the side of the public.

      That said, I like the FSF and the EFF. It doesn't mean that I believe that they don't have their own motivations that may be counter to what's good for society as a whole. Stallman is cool some days. Other days I think that his utopia would lead to the death of innovation in the software field.

    69. Re:I don't care what anyone says by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      Citizens own corporations. The corporation's interest is their interest.

      No, the corporations represents a portion of the stockholders financial interests. These financial interests may or may not be in conflict with other equally important interests. In fact, allowing corporations to pursue their interests with the same legal rights as individuals can easily result in the interesting situation where the corporation, under the guidance of a few majority shareholders, is acting against the best interests of 90% of the owners. Because corporations have no need to weigh actual human interests against the profit motive. Because corporations aren't people. I have never heard a philosophic argument for corporations having the same rights as people (why should the corporation you and I own have any rights beyond the car we own?); there are many practical arguments for limiting corporations (just look at the mess that is America's political system).

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    70. Re:I don't care what anyone says by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      It's not a question of opinion : software patents create monopolies , and monopolies are bad for the public ( and good for corporation having the monopoly , but bad for other corporations ).
      That is the way it is.

      However , if you have stock in the company which has a monopoly , the monopoly is good for you . In every other case , it's not good for you.

      Money doesn't just magically appear on the market : if you gain money through your stocks , it's because someone else is losing money.

    71. Re:I don't care what anyone says by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I have an example, when they advocate more H1-Bs what they are really saying is "we think Software Developers do not have the right to market prices for their labor".

    72. Re:I don't care what anyone says by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Be careful with your language and logic.

      Consumption of information? That common expression bothers me more and more. How can information be "consumed"? Energy and food is consumed. I suppose what is really meant is that, barring forgetfulness, information is only new once. The newness is "consumed", not the information itself. But that expression is too easily misconstrued. It lays a foundation for reasoning as if information is scarce, which is not true. Stop using it!

      Matter of perspective? Both pushing for their own interests? Neither one is right or wrong? Both are the same? No! You're trotting out false equivalences. In this, there is a good side which is for the public interest, and a bad side which for their own selfish interests however much they might claim otherwise. Can hardly have a bigger, starker difference than that. Would you argue that there was no fundamental difference between the Union and the Confederates in the US Civil War? Or between the fascists and democracies in WWII? Or the nominal communists and capitalists of the Cold War? Slavery, in addition to being brutal and cruel, was economically inferior. The system simply could not compete on production. Same with the so-called communist systems that were actually dictatorships.

      Today, proprietary cannot compete with open. Open has far too many advantages. If not for the religious devotion so many display towards proprietary systems, the intense desire for there to be entities who will act in a manner proper and reassuring to those who have stakes of their own, libre software would have won by now. But they want there to be stakeholders in software, just like they are stakeholders in their own businesses. Therefore they think software must be owned in every way possible, the more the better. They trust that arrangement to be the best guarantee possible that this scary new software stuff will work, and be secure, available, maintained, and supported 24/7. The fear factor makes them much too willing to sacrifice freedoms for security, and many businesses take advantage of this. How many people do you know who derive a vague feeling of comfort from the mere mention of Microsoft? Entirely too many. They conveniently forget all the commercial failures, things like Borland, Commodore, OS/2, Netscape, and WordPerfect. And they're far too forgiving of all the lock in attempts that have been tried over the years, from MS Word's doc file format, the disaster known as OOXML, and Apple's iPod and everything else Apple to cell phone jailing, Sony's audio CDs with root kits, TurboTax's boot sector modification, and DRM schemes such as Region Encoding, CSS, and HDCP. At least some commercialism is seen as going too far, and BonziBuddy, Gator and similar ilk are pretty well universally hated.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    73. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      It is a question of opinions as the OP has worded it. I said from the get go that I agree that software patents are bad. That's not the point. OP is implying that people who voice opinion that he considers "corporatist" should somehow have those opinion treated differently in the public debate than those who are voicing "pure" opinions. That's wrong. Just because I have the opinion that, say, helping Microsoft maintain it's monopoly position is a great idea; doesn't mean you can shut me up because you think Microsoft's monopoly is bad. I might be wrong, but I'm allowed to wrong. The freedom to be wrong is one of the many freedoms we enjoy. The fact that I hold this opinion because I hold Microsoft stock is irrelevant. It might color how others view my opinion (since I have an obvious conflict of interest on the matter), but it can't influence my ability to peddle the opinion to anyone I see fit.

      This doesn't mean we should give a stage to every opinion on the face of the Earth, but corporations can afford to build their own stages, and we shouldn't be able to stop them from doing so.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    74. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Really? How much "interest" does the janitor cleaning Microsoft's floors really have? Sure it's a job but I don't hear MS speaking-out for the rights of janitors. Often they do just the opposite.

      We've been over this before. A corporation does not represent the interests of its employees. A corporation is a proxy for the interests of its owners.

      Do owners of companies not have rights as individuals who choose to associate with other individuals as owners of a corporation?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    75. Re:I don't care what anyone says by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Matter of perspective? Both pushing for their own interests? Neither one is right or wrong? Both are the same?

      Not quite. I'm saying the terms right, wrong, good, and bad are not appropriate. I am not saying that the sides are the same, clearly they are not. I'm saying that we shouldn't be applying a relative moral judgement to the different positions. I'm also saying that there is no absolute moral spectrum on which to place these ideas. This point is, of course, up for some debate as well. Keep in mind that I am only arguing my own opinion; of course I believe it to be correct but I won't vilify anyone that disagrees.

      An assumption you appear to make is that the side that favors the public benefit is good while the side that favors the personal benefit is bad. All I am saying is that good and bad imply an inherent universal moral order along which these perspectives fall. It is arrogant for us to assume that our side is more "good" than any other simply because it's the side that we are on.

      From a utilitarian perspective I see an easy argument how the public benefit from open information outweighs the personal benefit of closed information (greater good for greater numbers and all that), but nobody cares to actually pursue that argument. Realistically we can never really quantify the units of good or units of bad that either option would produce. However most of the debate I see here includes people mindlessly labeling us "good" and them "bad". It's irrational and irresponsible.

    76. Re:I don't care what anyone says by overlordofmu · · Score: 1

      "Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation and social standing, never can bring about a reform. Those who are really in earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathy with despised and persecuted ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences."

      Translation: If you try to fix big problems you are going to look like a crazy. Steel yourself for it, look crazy and fix shit!

      Anyone know the source of the quote (WITHOUT GOOGLING FOR IT, CHEATER!)?

    77. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never once heard moderate Catholics denounce the Catholic Church for protecting child molesters and refusing to turn over documentation. In fact you rarely hear Christians in general denouncing the Catholic Church or other Christian religious organizations. I hear them screaming "Think of the Children" at the top of their lungs about everything else but when it comes to child molesters in their midst they are sure quiet.

    78. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as someone who is very pro-copyright, I like stallman too. He reminds everyone what delusional retarded fucking hippies the anti-copyright movement is comprised of.

    79. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like 2% of the citizens get filthy rich from 100% of the corporations. Who is representing the other 98% of us?

    80. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      corporations can afford to build their own stages, and we shouldn't be able to stop them from doing so.

      And that's where we seem to disagree. We have a problem when corporations can use their vast resources to drown the voices of individuals.

      For example, if I were a corporation, I could hire 200 people ("lobbyists"? "shills"? whatever) to come here on Slashdot and post pro-software patent comments, thus giving the impression to anyone who visits the site for the first time that the IT people around here support software patents.

      Now, replace "Slashdot" with "Parliament" or "Congress"... Add to that generous campaign donations to various politicians...

    81. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would be happier with Stallman if what you said was true about his position, but AFAIK, it is not. I went and read the article after (of course) I read your comment, to see if there was anything quotable that could prove either show me what you are talking about, or something that could prove my point. THE WHOLE DAMN ARTICLE proves my point. It is all about Stallman's ideas about how society should be structured around free software.

      An extreme view on copyright or patents would be a demand for their immediate dissolution

      Come on now. That is just wrong. Think about it. Right now, if you legally acquire software, under current copyright law, the only right you have is to use the software. If you dissolved copyright law, then you would not only be able to use the software, but you could also share it as much as you want.

      With GPL, not only do you have those rights, but you also have access to the source code, and the ability to modify and build the software. So objectively speaking, GPL is more extreme since it brings about greater change.

    82. Re:I don't care what anyone says by sexconker · · Score: 0

      There's a difference. Patent advocates are in the business of conspiring against the public to line their own pockets. The FSF represents public interests and has nothing to hide. Crashing the patent troll party makes a much more powerful statement, imo.

      So is everybody you buy something from, ever.
      Protip: People who sell things like to make money.

    83. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      Making a profit by selling a product is one thing. Using patents to cut everyone else out of the market, giving yourself a monopoly and thus pricing as high as you like is another.

      I wouldn't care if they were doing this just with toothbrushes, but when they are doing it with things like medicines it becomes serious.

    84. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      But how do you stop that, and still maintain those people's rights? They have a right to speak (not necessarily on Slashdot, which is a private service, but certainly to Congress or Parliament). They have a right let someone tell them what to say. They have a right to paid for services. I'm sure if you pinned those people down, they'd swear by whatever deity they worship that they really believe whatever drek they're spouting at the moment. Can you prove otherwise?

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    85. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Informative

      So THAT'S why moderate muslims don't denounce the crazies. I get it now thanks.

      Are you serious?

      Thousands of muslims leaders and millions of regular muslims have denounced the terrorists.

      Hell, even the leader of the axis of evil, Ayatollah Khamenei, publicly condemned the 9-11 attacks.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    86. Re:I don't care what anyone says by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Citizens with lots of wealth own corporations. The corporation's interest is their interest.

      Other citizens who are affected by what the corporation does are not necessarily represented by the corporation. Employees, vendors, customers, and people that just happen to live near a corporation's major facilities have no representation whatsoever within a corporation unless they own significant amounts of stock.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    87. Re:I don't care what anyone says by westlake · · Score: 1

      Citizens own corporations. The corporation's interest is their interest.

      People "own" insurance policies. Shares in retirement funds. Interest-bearing checking and savings accounts.

      In the real world, payments and deposits are re-invested - almost nothing is stored in a vault - and the return on investment affects you directly.

      You want and need these fiduciaries to maintain a strong portfolio.

    88. Re:I don't care what anyone says by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Informative

      Many of them do. Many of those that do are still demonized by Fox News - for instance, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf said in describing his community center in Lower Manhattan that “We want to push back against the extremists", has worked with local Jewish leaders, and has been consistently advocating for peace between Islamic nations and the West throughout his career. It didn't help his cause.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    89. Re:I don't care what anyone says by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      THE WHOLE DAMN ARTICLE proves my point. It is all about Stallman's ideas about how society should be structured around free software.

      It's no secret that Stallman advocates change, but he advocates voluntary change by both producers and consumers instead of single-sided laws pushed through without public input.

      With GPL, not only do you have those rights, but you also have access to the source code, and the ability to modify and build the software. So objectively speaking, GPL is more extreme since it brings about greater change.

      Arguably we would all be more free in a libertarian sense if copyright was abolished. Just because I don't have the source doesn't prevent me and a few friends from publicly disassembling and reverse engineering any non copyrighted software that we feel like. It would be much closer to slapping the BSD license on everything that is currently protected by copyright.

    90. Re:I don't care what anyone says by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's exactly my position, except you forgot the bit about the orgies.

    91. Re:I don't care what anyone says by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      What some people would like to characterize here as "extremism" is merely a slightly older form of the status quo.

      So what? The same could be said of public executions, slavery, women's suffrage, equal rights, etc. His views are extreme by contemporary standards, and that's the only relevant comparison. Moreover, it's *not possible* to get any more extreme than what he's advocating, so his views are extremist in an absolute sense as well.

    92. Re:I don't care what anyone says by markhb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Money doesn't just magically appear on the market : if you gain money through your stocks , it's because someone else is losing money.

      That's actively ludicrous. If I gain money on my stocks, it's because I sold them to a willing buyer for more than I paid for them. If I don't sell them, then the daily price fluctuations are simply figures on paper. Nobody is losing money, although the person to whom I sell is certainly spending money. If your argument is that my gain is potential money lost by the person from whom I originally purchased the stocks, then I submit that my gain is my just reward for assuming a risk that the original owner didn't wish to take on.

      --
      Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
    93. Re:I don't care what anyone says by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>None because the janitor is not one of those citizens who owns Microsoft. Epic failz in economics right there.

      No he's more like an indentured servant (serf, slave) who has his voice suppressed whole Microsoft hires millions of lobbyists to take-over the Congress from the people. (Note I'm basically quoting Thomas Jefferson who said the same thing - corporate power steals-away governance from the People.)
      .

      >>>It's not MS job to speak about the rights of others except for its own.

      Microsoft is a THING. It has no rights just as trees, rocks, cars, buildings, and so on do not have no rights.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    94. Re:I don't care what anyone says by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Rocks and trees do not pay taxes, nor provide payroll to employees, nor conduct business. Corporations do.

      Next I suppose you'll argue that Microsoft and other Corporations should have the right to vote come this November, because they are "people" and these things should have the same rights as human beings. Dumbass.

      Oh. And no. I don't care if corporations pay 0% income tax..... the government can other ways to extract money via Sales taxes or Excise taxes.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    95. Re:I don't care what anyone says by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Do owners of companies not have rights as individuals

      Nobody is stopping Stockholders from speaking. They are saying that BUILDINGS (like gm, ms, etc) should have no mouth. But the stockholders are free to speak all the way, as individuals.
      .

      Next I suppose you'll say because corporations are "people" or "made up of people", they should be able to cast ballots in the November election - one ballot per shareholder. So around 10 million ballots of Microsoft, 5 million for GM, and so on. That's the stupidity of your stance.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    96. Re:I don't care what anyone says by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's good to hear about 9/11. Now, how many Muslims denounce death penalty for apostasy?

    97. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If any of the post-9/11 acts of violence by muslims have been denounced by the thought leaders of Islam, I've never once heard it. Apparantly neither have the terrorists. Perhaps they should denounce louder.

      Maybe you just need to listen better because they do it all the time,

      Here's just the latest - over 80 imams, scholars, community leaders, journalists, authors, and cartoonists have signed a denunciation of the extremists who scared the "draw muhammad day" artist into hiding. Funny thing about that - her cartoon was hijacked by anti-muslim extremists, not free-speech advocates, just muslim haters looking for any sort of politically correct cover for their raging.

      What her cartoon expressed and what the haters made it into were polar opposites. Kinda like the way the original danish cartoon issue was ginned up with 3 totally fake and unpublished images created by al-qaeda associated imams looking to ignite conflict.

    98. Re:I don't care what anyone says by ranton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Today, proprietary cannot compete with open. Open has far too many advantages. If not for the religious devotion so many display towards proprietary systems, the intense desire for there to be entities who will act in a manner proper and reassuring to those who have stakes of their own, libre software would have won by now.

      You do understand that your comments are opinions, right? The proprietary model does have advantages as well, such as providing additional incentive to create software. Even Stallman admits that proprietary software has benefits, but that choosing Free Software is a moral imperitive. Any increased efficiency is just a byproduct of following that moral path.

      It is clearly debatable whether free or proprietary software provides the most benefit for society. Its okay that you have taken a side, but don't pretend that the debate is finished.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    99. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's good to hear about 9/11. Now, how many Muslims denounce death penalty for apostasy?

      Pretty much all of them. - I mean have you ever asked a muslim what he thought about it?
      Really, the only ones who do care are the fundos and the politicians who pander to them.
      The koran has just two passages that deal with the issue and in each case the death penalty is only applicable to apostates who then commit treason.
      Just in case you've forgotten, we still have the death penalty for treason in the US.
      Hell, the only reason we still have the death penalty for anything in the US is because the politicians who pander to american fundos.
      No other western country has the death penalty. Even Russia abolished it.

      But if you have to have big names say it - lets start with Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi - Grand Mufti of the leading islamic university, Al-Azhar. If islam were anywhere near as monolithic as the catholic church then the grand mufti of Al-Azhar would be the closest thing islam has to a pope. And it wasn't something new that he brought with him when the took office in 1996 - the previous Grand Mufti al-Shaltut held to similar doctrine.

      But I'm sure you've never even heard of them. So how about Daisy Khan and her husband Imam Feisal Rauf - the people building the Park51 mosque.

      Or if you aren't satisfied with people who are famous among muslims or people who are famous among non-muslims, how about over a hundred regular muslims from all over the planet?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    100. Re:I don't care what anyone says by bug1 · · Score: 1

      An extremist is just someone with an opposite opinion.

      The only way to avoid being an extremist is to be a hypocrite.

    101. Re:I don't care what anyone says by bug1 · · Score: 1

      I should have just provided a quote Heraclitus, he contradicted himself all the time (in logic), to say things without bias.

      "Just as the river where I step is not the same, and is, so I am as I am not." - Heraclitus

    102. Re:I don't care what anyone says by hitmark · · Score: 1

      Bad news sell more then good news.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    103. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stallman is the boss! Not Bruce Springsteen, Not Tony Danza, Richard Fucking Stallman!!!

    104. Re:I don't care what anyone says by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It's good to hear about 9/11. Now, how many Muslims denounce death penalty for apostasy?

      Ummm... how many Muslim nations have that? One (Saudi) and maybe two (Iran, although that's not really used). The majority of Muslims live in Asia and in the worlds largest Muslim nation, Indonesia they can easily join the other religions prevalent in Indo (Christianity and Buddhism), Same with Malaysia, Brunei, and Turkey (not Asian, but still).

      You generalise about an entire people by using their worst example as their pinnacle, it would be like me saying all Russians are sadistic tyrants who enjoy torturing people like Stalin.

      Actually meet some Muslims from Asia, they'll change your opinion of Islam.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    105. Re:I don't care what anyone says by mjwx · · Score: 1

      has worked with local Jewish leaders, and has been consistently advocating for peace between Islamic nations and the West throughout his career.

      Historically, Islam and Judaism never had a conflict until Israel was created. Under the crusades it was the Christians who persecuted the Jews whilst the Muslims let them live in peace in Islamic controlled cities.

      All the Jews and Muslims I know both comment on how futile and stupid it is to fight over an essentially worthless strip of land (Israel and Palestine have no natural resources).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    106. Re:I don't care what anyone says by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Ummm... how many Muslim nations have that?

      Legally, this is the law in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Egypt. Oh, also Afghanistan. And I don't mean Taliban, I mean the Western-backed, supposedly democratically elected government. The list grows somewhat bigger if you count any kind of punishment for apostasy and/or proselytising (e.g. prison terms) rather than just execution.

      But then there are places where there's no such law, but you're as good as dead in practice, because the folk on the street will take care of it. Those include parts of Pakistan, Nigeria and Kenya.

    107. Re:I don't care what anyone says by incabulos · · Score: 1

      Your view sounds like an extremist view to me. Essentially all other niches of society takes a stance that agrees with Richard Stallman, that openness and honestly and transparency are paramount for freedoms and safety. It isnt just done for no reason either, its done because the posistion you advocate has been used and is being used to inflict harm.

      Take Food labelling laws and regulations for example. How happy would you be to eat or feed to your family "Brand X mysterious substance, now in convienient snack size packs!". Do you think the public good is served by concealing what people are ingesting, or that any effort to hide this information from consumers is probably not intended to help them or their health? There have been lobbying efforts recently trying to prevent companies from testing and labelling their food as GM free, or mad cow disease-free. Do you think this is good?

      Look at legislation, in particular bills that are kept secret and have to be rushed through the confirmation process without reading or debate - there have been many of these recently done in the name of security or counter-terrorism. How healthy do you think this is to democractic government and what motive do you think is attitributable to trying to keep details like this secret? It only takes a stealthy one liner inserted somewhere into a 400 page bill that noone notices to re-introduce gas chambers or to crush the rights of citizens or to carry out some other harmful act.

      Or finance and banking regulation. How much harm has been caused by the secretive credit default swap 'financial innovation' products that leverage against the realestate markets in Europe and the US? When credit rating agencies lie and claim A+++ ratings on securities that at their base level, after navigating through the layers of intentional concealment and obfuscation.. are based on cash-strapped heavily indebted people who are missing mortgage payments routinely, charging everything up on their credit cards, and in a suffering jobs market where sudden unemployment is both likely and catastrophic. Do you think it would be as much of a problem if the multi-trillions of dollars in junk assets were accurately labelled as junk before all those investors were scammed out of their cash?

      The stance of secrecy and obfucation and attacks against transparency and openness is almost always bad, and almost always motivated by desire to do harm or commit crime. What is really in corexit, and could it possibly be a problem that thousands of litres of the stuff are being pumped into a ecologically and commerically important area off the US gulf coast? 'Trust us!' say BP, just like Tony Blair said before invading Iraq, and didnt that turn out to be wonderful for all involved.

      In software terms, wouldnt you like to know whats happening to your systems and your data every time you use a particular program? That it isnt secretly scanning your RAM and swap space looking for website passwords and pin numbers for the online banks you use? Software companies have been caught doing this incidentally, and harvesting and uploading all this data to 3rd party sites without the permissions of users. Its naive to the point of carelessness and incompetance to blindly trust random programs and hope some faceless CEO in some office somewhere doesnt decide to screw you for profit on any given day.

      Not so with Free Software thank you very much.

    108. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Legally, this is the law in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Egypt. Oh, also Afghanistan.

      And yet it is rarely enforced - seems to be no more than a handful. if that, killed for apostasy in those countries each year - much less than the 50 or so people that the US executes each year - Egypt doesn't seem to have killed anyone for apostasy for decades although they did deny one guy the right to officially change the religion on his national id card. And only Saudi actually bans other religions in the country so there is plenty of opportunity of conversion - coptics are all over the area. There is plenty of social pressure to stay in the flock, and it is probably tacitly encouraged by local authorities - but that kind of mistreatment of minorities by the majority ain't unique.

    109. Re:I don't care what anyone says by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      I didn't form these opinions on thin air. Even Stallman sometimes does not see far enough. The Pirate Party wants to radically reform copyright and patent law. I think we need to go even further than that, and replace these legal regimes and traditions with something else. And, I think that will happen, but it is hard to guess when, perhaps 3 generations from now, about 60 years? As to the manner of it, I would prefer repeal like in the 21st Amendment, but seems what is more likely is a gradual fade into obscurity and disuse similar to traffic laws for horses.

      Why do I think this? Because, as everyone here should know, information really is fundamentally different from material. Copies of material things are scarce, copies of data are abundant. That data once resided on media that was expensive to manufacture, transport, and store obscured this fact for years. Copying operations were large and people intensive affairs that could not be easily hidden, and so the government could regulate them. But no longer. Today, financial necessities are one of the few hooks still available for government to grip. Anyone can distribute all the data they like, the tricky part is collecting money for doing so. Also obfuscating things is the use of copyright law for other purposes, ranging from the routinely abused DMCA takedown notice provisions for purposes of censorship or monopolization (admittedly, copyright is supposed to be a monopoly, but that's just another bad thing about it), to the heinous ACTA treaty negotiations. We do want to stop plagiarism and counterfeiting, but let's not tangle those worthy goals up in misguided overreaching with copyright. One way to make sure a murder will never happen again is to kill everyone off now. This kind of scorched earth legislation is what so many are lobbying for. The fear of change is palpable. How will studios and theaters make money, people ask, as if they are indispensable. They aren't. If theaters all go bankrupt, so what? We don't miss ice houses. Nothing of value will be lost.

      Now technology has advanced to the point that anyone can copy enormous quantities of data very cheaply and quickly, and we can all see there is still much room for tremendous improvement. How is copyright going to mean anything when two people can privately give or receive entire libraries on just one flash memory stick, in a matter of seconds? Don't even need a formal network. We can pretty much do that now. Trying to outlaw individual copying of data is going to be even less effective or desirable than stopping sex. This is not a matter of incentives, it's a matter of coming to our senses. Stop trying to criminalize copying, it isn't working. For incentives to artists and scientists, there are all kinds of better things we can do other than strengthen IP laws.

      The problems with software are similar. The model of selling copies of binaries is inherently ridiculous. It only has to be written once. I think it is only inertia that keeps things like Word and IE going in the face of free alternatives like Open Office and Firefox, though of course many who choose Word leap to justify their choice with dubious rationals of why OO is inferior. And copy protection only has to be broken once. The mind boggling complexity of software and the rapidly increasing capabilities of hardware have made constant support, revision, correction, and expansion necessary, and that has helped keep the model alive. But once we've settled on architectures and programming paradigms, and all the killer apps are finally good enough, and I think that too will happen, then what? What more can be done to significantly improve something like an office suite? When is the last time a new killer app came on the scene? The browser in the early 90's? Maybe P2P file sharing in the late 90's? VoIP? Instant messaging? Many people feel that older versions are good enough and see no need to spend big money on upgrades, particularly when it is doubtful that it really is an upgrade, as i

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    110. Re:I don't care what anyone says by ardle · · Score: 1

      I think the main priority of the public is food, usually. After that comes "rights" and things like that.

    111. Re:I don't care what anyone says by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      And yet it is rarely enforced - seems to be no more than a handful.

      There are a bunch of reasons.

      To begin with, simply converts aren't all that common in those societies. They may be in ours precisely because of religious freedom, secular education etc. But in strongly traditionalist, patriarchal societies, there is little motivation to question the religion into which one is born, and which is shared by everyone else they know.

      For another thing, according to Sharia, an apostate shall not be executed immediately, but should be asked to repent first, and given a few days to think it over. As you'd imagine, most people, when faced with the threat of death, would think twice and more.

      The other reason is that it takes a clear declaration to become an apostate. It can be a plain statement of fact in public ("I am not a Muslim" - as Sol Hachuel did), or open worship of another god. Again, the existence of apostasy laws is generally very well known, so most converts would rather practice their religion privately.

    112. Re:I don't care what anyone says by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Crashing the patent troll party makes a much more powerful statement, imo.

      Not when the crasher looks like a bum. Stallman would get more credibility from people if he presented himself better at places like that. For example, clean shaven, haircut, and a suite. Asperger victims think it doesn't matter, but to the people who actually sign the cheques... and the legislation, it matters a lot. The way Stallman looked there, I doubt anyone in that meeting took him seriously. Especially with the 60's era magic marker signs.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    113. Re:I don't care what anyone says by osgeek · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but whose rights?

      That's where I think a lot of people on Slashdot get tripped up. They myopically think that the only people's rights worth protecting are copyright or patent infringers and not the content creators' or inventors'.

    114. Re:I don't care what anyone says by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      You are ignoring the long history of islamic rulers who tried to forcibly convert jews and christians; in the Almohad and Safavid dynasties for example. Then there are the unequal taxes on non-muslims.

    115. Re:I don't care what anyone says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, straight out of jihadwatch's pajamas.

      The taxes were unequal - muslims paid more. It was just called something else - like the difference between a church tithe and a government tax. Back then, different names for essentially the same thing.

    116. Re:I don't care what anyone says by ardle · · Score: 1

      I think the question (which I didn't raise, by the way) maybe should be which rights, rather than whose.
      Everyone has rights - this is why we have lawyers ;-)
      In fact, I left my comment open to several interpretations; you selected one interpretation but grandparent also contains all counter-arguments [smiles smugly].

    117. Re:I don't care what anyone says by hazah · · Score: 1

      I'm actually pointing out a fundamental logical flaw; you contradict yourself. You say "there is nothing inherently good," and then state "except for the benefits you get from it." How can there be nothing good if there are benefits??

  2. Re:Note to Richard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    As someone who was suffering with 21st century tools until I found Emacs, I do wonder which parts you would change. I use Emacs 7-10 hours every working day. The latest version (23) does have antialiased fonts, so what are the other hangups you speak of? And it's worth using for org-mode alone.

  3. A bit of irony by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Funny

    Amazingly enough, the article describing Stallman's well-reasoned arguments for the need for free software, free sharing of information, and non-proprietary formats is helpfully on a page written in ASP.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:A bit of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are FOSS implementations of both classic ASP and ASP.NET.

      They're probably using the proprietary Microsoft ones, though :(

    2. Re:A bit of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, why would anyone in their right mind use the shitty FOSS clone?

    3. Re:A bit of irony by oiron · · Score: 1

      Yes, better to use Django or PHP instead of either the shitty original or the shittier clone, I guess...

    4. Re:A bit of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better to just not use PHP, period. The language is plain awful. I'd actually rather use ASP over PHP in that case.

    5. Re:A bit of irony by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Ugghh, no. ASP isn't an improvement. They both suck, as the colloquial goes, big fat donkey balls.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:A bit of irony by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      ASP.Net MVC is pretty nice, but you couldn't tell a site is using it by a file extension. In any case, I think when ASP.Net came out it was probably the best web development framework available at the time. It took a lot of ideas from Cold Fusion and merged it with a platform that's a bit more robust... I do find that it scales about as well as Ruby on Rails though, which is to say, not very well in a typical scenario. I also find that a lot of people took the classic VBism approach to ASP.Net development, even when using C#.

      I do have to say, I've seen very bad code bases in more than a handful of web frameworks, and at the very least Visual Studio makes enough of a difference to tip the scale in favor of ASP.Net over alternatives, in that it's at least easier to deal with a bad code base, when you come into an existing project, over most alternatives.

      Personally, I've been in favor of using JavaScript server-side as you can re-use far more effectively and keep the code simpler for some time, but the frameworks available on that end frankly suck. Netscape's Livewire wasn't too bad, neither was classic ASP with JScript (though COM enumerations were rather painful, and lack of free components was a pain). I've been paying close attention to nodejs and express, as I feel it's the toolchain to watch. But that's just me.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  4. Go Stallman by hellraizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nice work ... there should me more people like him :)

    1. Re:Go Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, and as an Australian I'm glad that SOMETHING vaguely positive has happened in the IT world down here...

      Vote 1 Australia as the new Digital Rights battlefront!

    2. Re:Go Stallman by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Informative
    3. Re:Go Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It should be noted that the moth-bug event is not the origin of the term. The term dates back to 19th century at least, and the moth was (physically) logged as "the first actual bug", indicating they used this term and were amused by a bug caused by a bug. Grace Hopper, by the way, was in charge of the operation but was not involved in finding the moth as far as I could find.

    4. Re:Go Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice work ... there should me more people like him :)

      Yeah, but it's alot nicer when he's inside the tent, pissing out.

  5. Predicted politician response in the coming days: by Even+on+Slashdot+FOE · · Score: 5, Funny

    Look at these people, like Richard Stallman, who want our economy to die! We must have software patents! And an ACTA equivalent, and a DMCA equivalent, and secret police, and blah blah blah.

  6. Well by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Censorship, DRM, and surveillance are all very dangerous and annoying things that only hurt the average person. It's hardly going to affect the pirates and will likely only affect 'normal' people, robbing them of some of their rights in the process. These corporations must be stopped, that much is clear.

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  7. Re:He's LOSING it man !! by airfoobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Bonkers are the people who see what's going on around them, and say and do nothing.

  8. that must have been just like by FudRucker · · Score: 3, Funny

    when jesus overturned the money-changer's tables. Jesus? is that you?

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:that must have been just like by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      What? Because of the beard?

    2. Re:that must have been just like by rcb1974 · · Score: 1

      Stallman is of Jewish descent.

    3. Re:that must have been just like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice job underscoring the similarity further, nimrod.

    4. Re:that must have been just like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Jesus certainly wasn't of Christan descent. Funny how that works.

  9. Re:Predicted politician response in the coming day by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ugh. People like you make me sick! The DMCA protects authors and their intellectual property that is in an infinite supply, and the ACTA, if it passes (hopefully it will), will accomplish this goal further and eliminate those evil pirates who dare steal profit that only exists in the future of an alternate dimension where the artist made more money!

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  10. Worse Than Software Patents by TheEyes · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even worse than software patents, there is a new UN resolution going around that would give world governments more control over the internet. This is even worse, IMO, than software patents, which "only" threaten to drive software innovation to a virtual standstill: allowing governments to control the flow of information on the Internet could well destroy it, and the newfound freedom of expression and access to information we are currently taking for granted.

    There are so many new threats to freedom on so many new fronts it's hard to even define what they all are, let alone what can be done about them.

    1. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2, Funny

      What are you hiding? If you're not a dirty criminal, what have you got to lose? The government is nice enough to provide all kinds of other things for you, and can be trusted. Stop acting like a conspiracy theorist.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    2. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now THAT was some SERIOUSLY thick sarcasm. :) (I assume as a slashdot reader, you can't honestly believe what you just wrote...)

    3. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love NPR and everything, but it struck me as a more complex issue than the way they presented it. Remember that the issue at hand is what is an act of war; i.e., what action reaches the threshold of making retaliation legal under international law.

      I don't actually think that China, Russia, and Iran are actually concerned with the freedom of the world's people, but to play the devil's advocate: If China was to throw just a couple million dollars at a modern online marketing campaign (forum posts, concern trolling, general astroturf stuff that we've become accustomed to), would you (as an USian, I'm assuming) consider it an act of war if the aim of the campaign was to politically destabilize the USA?

      Seems to me that such an action could cause some serious problems for a country. And it's dirt cheap to do. Imho, the world should wake up to the new reality of sociology as applied science. It raises some questions that don't have simple answers.

    4. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the Internet's fate is sealed, in it's current form. It was always under the control of a single government, so it's only a matter of time. We need to go to darknets or replace the infrastructure with something community-run - probably a bit of both.

      I wrote about this before:

      http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1634334&cid=32019410

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by magus_melchior · · Score: 2, Informative

      If that's this morning's Morning Edition report on "cyber" security (may that buzzword burn in hell), we need to change the framing of the information security debate in eastern Europe and the Middle East, because those countries view information and ideology, not technology, as the weapons. They want to stop countries from expressing philosophical opinions, which is useless for anything except for suppressing dissidents!

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    6. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Loaded question
      2. Appeal to law
      3. Naturalistic fallacy
      4. Ad hominem

      4x combo. I hear the Vatican has been recruiting people like you. You may want to check it out.

    7. Re:Worse Than Software Patents by hedwards · · Score: 1

      What concerns me about that is that they're going at it the wrong way. Much of what governments legitimately require is already available to them. The main thing they need is some agreement about how to investigate and prosecute cross border crimes.

      Spammers, Phishers and similar scum routinely go through multiple countries for a reason, and it's not just a matter of the net not being designed to go directly at all times either.

  11. Re:He's LOSING it man !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean like the bugs crawling in my arm? Should I alarm all those who are unfortunately around me? Or maybe just hold up a crudely scrawled sign with the words, "I got bugs in me arm, I do! Aye, yer best cut of all arms!".

    Calling RMS bonkers is like calling Bin Laden "Armed and dangerous". Not quite the right level.

  12. GNU/Stallman by dandart · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Shouting, running, making a fool out of himself. I think if only he would do the sort of things he does without calling a ruckus, then people might take him more seriously.

    I admire the sort of things he's doing, but the way he does them is troublesome. He shouldn't for example be blocking access to an Apple store despite their terribly non-free products. Nobody likes an asshole and would tend to ignore it. Now, if he were to stand outside, offering leaflets on why Apple is wrong, but disguising it as something like "Bad Computer Practises", or "Why Software Freedom is Important" instead of "Apple is crap! Don't buy from them!" which no one will pay attention to, I think he'd get a lot further.

    Good luck, rms.

    1. Re:GNU/Stallman by martas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The bitch of it is that you probably did the right thing. But you did it in the wrong way. In the inconvenient way. Now you have to pay the penalty for that. I know it stinks, but that's the way it is."
      President Susanna Luchenko to Sheridan, Rising Star, Babylon 5

    2. Re:GNU/Stallman by melikamp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shouting, running, making a fool out of himself. I think if only he would do the sort of things he does without calling a ruckus, then people might take him more seriously.

      May be he doesn't care about being taken seriously. May be he just wants people to be serious about defending their own right to free expression. And I am sorry for people who are turned away from his lucid arguments because they think that non-violent protests against economic oppression and political censorship are "extremism": can people be any more docile?

    3. Re:GNU/Stallman by MORB · · Score: 1

      Shouting, running, making a fool out of himself.

      I thought Steve Ballmer had patended that.

    4. Re:GNU/Stallman by jDeepbeep · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other words, if he would just keep his mouth shut, not make anyone uncomfortable, and not live out his philosophy, he would be acceptable to you. Get back to us when you've done even _an eighth_ of what RMS has done for software freedoms that all of us benefit directly from.

      --
      Reply to That ||
    5. Re:GNU/Stallman by jDeepbeep · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think Ballmer only has the patent on using a chair as a projectile whilst making a point. Making a fool of oneself has too much prior art behind it.

      --
      Reply to That ||
    6. Re:GNU/Stallman by Noughmad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you try and tell people about "Why Software Freedom is Important", they will listen to you, agree with you, then buy Apple anyway. If you tell them "Apple is crap!", at least some of them will understand it.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    7. Re:GNU/Stallman by diskofish · · Score: 1

      -1 Misinformation

      The article nor the interview makes no mention of running around screaming and shouting. The video shows RMS quietly standing in the corner holding a sign.

    8. Re:GNU/Stallman by Duradin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One could understand an argument of "Why Software Freedom is Important", "Apple is crap!" is too shallow for anything but simple agreement or disagreement.

      "they will listen to you, agree with you, then buy Apple anyway" that's called the "nod politely and slowly back away" maneuver.

    9. Re:GNU/Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, no.

      He refuses to obey any "decency rules" because it precisely those decency rules that the corporations believe apply to you and not to them.
      He is protesting, dammit, protests must be exactly like this - in their face.
      He raises a hue and cry so that you read about it.

      A decent protest will not be reported as widely

      So I certify this as a good quality protest. :-)

      All that said, if you ever get to meet Stallman, be careful not to get into his attention. He's a highly infectious, compulsive protester. He will be quite happy with disrupting your employment or income or even code output, provided you believe what he asks you to and do his bidding in the field of protest.

    10. Re:GNU/Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as I don't have to use his GNU crap, sure, keep up the fighting.

    11. Re:GNU/Stallman by couchslug · · Score: 1

      If he didn't fight, hard, he would never have been listened too when his cause was a fringe movement. It really still IS a fringe movement, outside the world of Slashdot.

      Being an asshole works well for some people, and I hope he stays at it.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    12. Re:GNU/Stallman by dandart · · Score: 1

      My thinking was if he did more things without making Apple customers (read: not Apple themselves) uncomfortable, they're more likely to go with him on the route to freedom,

    13. Re:GNU/Stallman by dandart · · Score: 1

      In the past he has done this. In Apple stores. Blocking off access. Etc.

    14. Re:GNU/Stallman by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      May be he doesn't care about being taken seriously. May be he just wants people to be serious about defending their own right to free expression

      The problem is, by projecting the image of himself that he does - a bearded fanatic with glowing eyes frothing at the mouth - he does a great disservice to the cause he tries to represent, because it gets associated with him, and all personal negative connotations necessarily carry over.

      PR is good and necessary for any cause, but it should be done by people good at it.

    15. Re:GNU/Stallman by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      you tell them "Apple is crap!", at least some of them will understand it.

      Most would just call you an idiot for stating things that are objectively untrue, and then ignore everything else that you might have to say - after all, why listen to ramblings of an idiot?

      Same goes for "Windows 7 sins" campaign, by the way. A PR fail of epic proportions.

    16. Re:GNU/Stallman by Trogre · · Score: 1

      But has it done him any good - has he managed to get access to the driver for the lab Xerox 9700 yet?

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    17. Re:GNU/Stallman by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Get back to us when you've done even _an eighth_ of what RMS has done for software freedoms that all of us benefit directly from.

      To the GP, Get back to us when you've managed to accomplish 1/8th of anything Stallman has done.

      Like him or not, he's a man who lives by his convictions and that's a damn rare thing today.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    18. Re:GNU/Stallman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short: YES.

      Your question can be safely rephrased as 'can people be more ignorant?' Ignorants tend to behave 'well' and not rock the boat. They sense it's their best strategy, they have no chance of thriving by any other means.

      All this debate exists because the general public cannot be bothered to spend two weeks researching an issue in a scientific way. Ignorance and laziness are a social cancer with symptoms that manifest as corruption, violence and poverty. Those naive or wicked enough to want to keep the system like this will fight the symptoms without ever fighting the cause.

  13. stallman rocks by Jeek+Elemental · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He secured his place in history a long time ago and is STILL at it, and most impressive, still relevant.

    1. Re:stallman rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relevant? lol.

    2. Re:stallman rocks by u17 · · Score: 1

      That he has so many outspoken opponents, only confirms it.

    3. Re:stallman rocks by ceejayoz · · Score: 1

      So Fred Phelps is relevant? Or is he just a loud asshole?

    4. Re:stallman rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He secured his place in history a long time ago and is STILL at it, and most impressive, still relevant.

      It is impressive indeed. Now if only he'd take a shower.

    5. Re:stallman rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just ask netcraft

    6. Re:stallman rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the guy who doesn't even use a web browser is soooo relevant. He's freaking senile.

  14. Re:Note to Richard by sourcerror · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Try Jedit. It was built with the same philosophy.
    The thing I like the most about it, is that I didn't had to learn a new language to script it (like elisp), it can be scripted with beanshell, which is pretty much like java, you just don't have to declare the type of everything (but it accepts vanilla Java too).
    It can record macros in Beanshell while clicking around, you can assign them to custom buttons, to custom hotkeys, it has a nice plugin api as well (but you can do everything in beanshell macro too, but plugins make them faster and easier to manage).
    It has syntax support for a lot languges. (For some it has function list and additional goodies too. But syntax files are dead-easy to write.)
    It has a nice XML plugin too, which will offer auto-complete according to DTD.

    I think it has everything that emacs has*, but uses the usual user interface coventions (ctrl-insert, ctrl-shift etc. )

    * I guess emacs has some esoteric plugins that Jedit not; I'm speaking here about the core application

  15. the printing press by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    bought about the creation of the middle class, modern democracy, and the death of the feudal system and the aristocracy

    it took awhile. the feudal system and the aristocracy in their time were just no brainer common sense, and the idea of challenging them was either something to be laughed at or you must be crazy to believe they could ever end or to doubt their validity

    the internet means the death of the entire concept of intellectual property

    it will take awhile. in our time some people just take the idea of intellectual property as just no brainer common sense, and the idea of challenging it is either something to be laughed at or you must be crazy to believe it could ever end or to doubt its validity

    in today's age, stallman is but a distant voice in the wilderness, but he's actually 100% correct, just way ahead of his time, too far ahead, to gain any traction

    the simple truth is that intellectual property is a completely flawed concept. it made sense before the internet when media had to be physically printed and physically distributed. much as the feudal system made sense when only a few could afford book knowledge

    all that intellectual property has going for it now is legal and cultural inertia. it is of course completely philosophically untenable when media can be shared at zero cost at great distances with millions instantaneously. it will take time, but intellectual property is going down the tubes. the intartubes

    let us work hard to hasten its demise

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:the printing press by AnonymousClown · · Score: 0

      the simple truth is that intellectual property is a completely flawed concept. it made sense before the internet when media had to be physically printed and physically distributed. much as the feudal system made sense when only a few could afford book knowledge

      all that intellectual property has going for it now is legal and cultural inertia. it is of course completely philosophically untenable when media can be shared at zero cost at great distances with millions instantaneously. it will take time, but intellectual property is going down the tubes. the intartubes

      let us work hard to hasten its demise

      Oh God no! .Intellectual Property is more than books or music or software.

      And even then, if someone spends the time and money to develop something, I think they should get a temporary monopoly on whatever they invented. The thought of spending a lot of money and time inventing something only to have someone else just come by and copy it and profit from it - without any discipline or investment of their own - would enable people to leach without recourse. You can only create so much for the "greater good" before you have to pay your bills. And what's wrong with someone inventing something or writing something and getting rich off of their idea?

      Look at any country with weak IP laws and innovation is stagnate or non-existent in those countries - most of the countries in Africa for example. Or if we look at China, we'll see folks very reluctant to expose their new technology in that country -there's a reason why only commodity technology is manufactured over there.

      No, we need IP laws and the lack of them will bring innovation to a standstill.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:the printing press by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The thought of spending a lot of money and time inventing something only to have someone else just come by and copy it and profit from it"

      What harm have the pirates done? Have they taken profit that only exists in the future of an alternate dimension where the artist made more money?

      "No, we need IP laws and the lack of them will bring innovation to a standstill."

      We don't need illogical laws, we need an end to our capitalistic society (that will be far in the future, if it happens at all).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    3. Re:the printing press by airfoobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you seriously arguing that African countries are the way they are because they have no IP laws?? As for China, I think they are innovating just fine, and in a few years they might give us a run for our money.

    4. Re:the printing press by Steauengeglase · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To paraphrase Stallman, there is no such thing as Intellectual Property. There are patents, copyrights and trademarks. Anything else is someone trying to get over on you.

    5. Re:the printing press by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      bought about the creation of the middle class, modern democracy, and the death of the feudal system and the aristocracy

      Completely incorrect and bass-ackwards. Wikipedia on the printing press: "The rapid economic and socio-cultural development of late medieval society in Europe created favorable intellectual and technological conditions for Gutenberg's invention", not the other way around as you state. Gutenberg invented the press in 1439, nearly three hundred years before the industrial revolution.

      Too bad your misunderstanding of history detracts so badly from the better points in your comment.

    6. Re:the printing press by gerddie · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, we need IP laws and the lack of them will bring innovation to a standstill.

      You have it all wrong: for example James Watt brought the development of the steam machine to a standstill using his patents, and only after these patents expired, innovation could continue:

      Once Watt's patents were secured and production started, a substantial portion of his energy was devoted to fending off rival inventors. In 1782, Watt secured an additional patent, made "necessary in consequence of ... having been so unfairly anticipated, by [Matthew] Wasborough in the crank motion"... . More dramatically, in the 1790s, when the superior Hornblower engine was put into production, Boulton and Watt went after him with the full force of the legal system.

      ...

      After the expiration of Watt's patents, not only was there an explosion in the production and efficiency of engines, but steam power came into its own as the driving force of the Industrial Revolution. Over a thirty year period steam engines were modified and improved as crucial innovations such as the steam train, the steamboat and the steam jenny came into wide usage. The key innovation was the high-pressure steam engine — development of which had been blocked by Watt's strategic use of his patent. Many new improvements to the steam engine, such as those of William Bull, Richard Trevithick, and Arthur Woolf, became available by 1804: although developed earlier these innovations were kept idle until the Boulton and Watt patent expired. None of these innovators wished to incur the same fate as Jonathan Hornblower.

    7. Re:the printing press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? China isn't giving the US a run for its money, it's taking its money hand over fist. Gotta love Americans head-up-their-ass ignorance about how poorly they are doing compared to the rest of the world. We're #1! We're #1! Mission Accomplished! Keep telling yourself that.

    8. Re:the printing press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree a stable government has done more for a prospering country then any IP law would ever do.

    9. Re:the printing press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And you just had to be a dick about it

    10. Re:the printing press by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      So...if wikipedia says it it must be true?

      You really think wikipedia is the authoritative source of interpretations of history?

    11. Re:the printing press by bws111 · · Score: 1

      So why didn't any of these other inventors come up with the steam engine before Watt? If Watt was not driven by his desire to make money off his invention how much longer would we have had to wait before there was ANY steam engine? Were Hornblower et al eventually going to come up with a steam engine without having Watt's work to build from? Is there any evidence to support the idea that they would have?

    12. Re:the printing press by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      Really what the printing press did was break the back of the church. No longer were Bibles created through laborious process and restricted to a few wealthy hands (many of whom probably couldn't read it themselves anyway). With the ability to mass produce books, there was the ability for the average person (or at least the middle class) to read the Bible themselves and form their own opinions. It didn't make people question the nobility, it made them question the clergy.

    13. Re:the printing press by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I wouln't cite it in a college course, but it's good enough for a slashdot discussion. Seldom have I found inaccuracies in articles about subjects I'm familiar with.

    14. Re:the printing press by velja27 · · Score: 1

      You are right. Many times have i thought about how much more could the human race have advanced in all the fields you can think of if only there were no such things as patents, intellectual property and such bullshit that causes all innovation and creation to a screeching halt. But i think there must be a way to reward those that contribute and punish those that don't but are able to contribute(ie. not be lazy asses, but do some work that benefits their community whichever it may be).

  16. Good for him. by mrthoughtful · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I recall when I went through a rather lengthy discussion with the UK government about software patents, and the state of the law. It became very clear that regarding patent law, the UK government and the UK patent office is very heavily influenced by advisors who are, almost to a man, commercial patent lawyers. The remaining industry spokesmen are from big business.

    It doesn't take a huge amount of understanding or research to see that SME innovation has more or less been destroyed by the existing patent processes. Entry into big success is done through innovation still - but not so much via the patent route. I would contend that companies like Facebook was successful, NOT because of whatever patents they may have held, (or bought), but because they were able to identify a market demand and react to it faster or more successfully than existing big industry was able.

    --
    This comment was written with the intention to opt out of advertising.
  17. Proving once and for all by MoriT · · Score: 1

    Not everyone is less rude in real life than they are on the internet.

  18. Getting the Message Across by doomicon · · Score: 1

    I just don't think he can effectively get his message across to Corporate/IT decision makers/leaders. Nor is the average computer user able to really recieve it. What do they "benefit" from his ideals.

    For example, this quote in reference to 'Software as a Service'

    "You absolutely can't study it, and you absolutely can't change it, and you're even further away from having control over your computing."

    Corporations, don't particularly care about studying, and the idea of not having control over their computing will sound like a good idea.

    Average User, doesn't want to study, change, and how much 'control' do they really want to have.

    While I tend to "mostly" agree with him, I just don't think 99% of audience particularly understands or cares. Maybe if he had a better way of explaining benefits to his ideals that would appeal to a larger audience. Unfortunately, he tends to be at the other end of the spectrum (GNU-Linux).

    --

    Awesome!
    1. Re:Getting the Message Across by melikamp · · Score: 1

      It is clear from your post that there is no problem with RMS' argument: the problem is that people and firms are widely unaware of being shafted by proprietary software vendors. May be if you, me, and others here take this message out to the masses, something will change.

  19. Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Damon+Tog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing."

    If you want to share, create your own work and give it away for free.

    In the past (and present) this is precisely what Richard Stallman did with GNU. He wanted software to be free. Instead of bootlegging copies of Windows (or MS-DOS) he created his OWN stuff and gave it away for free. Now Linux is a force to be reckoned with. If he had simply pirated other peoples' work, this innovation would have never happened.

    1. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 0

      "Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing.""

      Then what is it? It's certainly not stealing, as nothing is being taken from anyone.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    2. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Please stop abusing the term "sharing"

      You're not suggesting we call it "GNU/sharing" I hope?

    3. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Sharing implies that you split something rather than duplicate it!

    4. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by archer,+the · · Score: 1

      It's certainly not stealing, as nothing is being taken from anyone.

      Isn't revenue being "stolen", in a similar way to shoplifting? If the first purchased copy of Windows 7 was shared, and then everyone who wanted W7 copied the shared version, Microsoft would get no revenue after that first purchase.

      I do agree that not all sharing correlates to lost sales: there are people who can't afford W7 and would have no choice but to live without it if the shared version wasn't available.

    5. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "Isn't revenue being "stolen", in a similar way to shoplifting?"

      Can't say I didn't see the "potential profit" argument coming. No, you can't steal profit that only exists in the future of an alternate dimension where the artist(s) made more money.

      Now, let's say that someone buys media from an artist, doesn't like it, and tells all of their friends who were originally going to buy it as well not to buy it. The friends then decide not to buy it because their friend told them not to. In this case, potential profit was lost to the business. This means that the person who told his friends not to buy the product and his friends have deprived potential profit from the business.

      This is hardly different than piracy, as in both cases, nothing was really taken (except "potential profit").

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    6. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Mad+Leper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Copying someone else's work and distributing it without permission or license for free, thus depriving the creator of income counts as theft in my book.

      This is not what the FOSS movement is about and it's a shame that so many pirates hide behind the skirts of the Open Source movement to justify their actions. Even worse that so many FOSS supporters turn a blind eye to the practice rather than deal with it directly.

    7. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "thus depriving the creator of income counts as theft in my book"

      What income are they depriving the creator of? Is it potential profit? If it is, refer to my comment above yours.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    8. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If you give me an apple and I give half to a different friend, it's still sharing. If I have something and give it to you it's sharing no matter where or how I got the item.

    9. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is getting tangential, but... As I've argued before, when a debate starts focusing on terminology, both parties need to step back ask why people are worried so much about the terminology. Typically it is because words have added emotional baggage or implications, that either side wants to subtly slip into the debate without actively addressing the point.

      In this case, one side really wants to use the word "stealing" to be used, because of the emotional baggage of associated with it (it's wrong, it's bad, no one honest would do it, ...). The other side wants to use the word "sharing" similarly (it's good, everyone is taught to share, no one is harmed, ...).

      But in an intellectually honest debate, both sides would willingly back off from contentious terminology, and use neutral terms and focus on the particulars. Regardless of whether distributing digital copies is "sharing" or "stealing" (or both, or neither), we should debate whether said distribution is a net gain for society. We should debate whether said distribution violates a party's basic rights. And then from those points, we should debate what law would be both fair and socially-helpful.

      I fully acknowledge that words have meaning, and we should try to be precise with language. But this is exactly why an honest debate should not invoke terms with an intent to capitalize on ambiguity. My main point is not to let debate get derailed by terminology concerns. Focus on the nature and consequences of the activity being debated, rather than ambiguous labels or partial analogies.

      In the case of copyright, it becomes very difficult to argue for the social necessity, and intrinsic justness, of very long-term and rigidly-enforced copyright when you can no longer draw a false analogy to stealing of physical property. Conversely, it becomes difficult to argue that copyright infringement is completely without harm once you remove the sharing rhetoric and focus on the incentive/social-contract aspect of copyright law. In other words, I believe a socially-constructive compromise is more likely to arise from that kind of honest debate (yes, I know how unrealistic it is to expect that kind of debate to actually happen).

    10. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by djmurdoch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I assume you're describing copying without permission, i.e. copyright infringement. Copying and giving away with permission is definitely sharing.

      But I'm curious about who you think is suggesting that people should infringe copyright?

      Or are you talking about Stallman's anti-software-patent position? Newly imposing software patents is the "theft"; it takes stuff that should be in the public domain, and gives the patent holder a monopoly on it.

    11. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by m50d · · Score: 1
      Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing."

      No. But copying and giving away your own stuff (whether you bought it or made it yourself) is.

      --
      I am trolling
    12. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "In the case of copyright, it becomes very difficult to argue for the social necessity"

      Not really. It should be clear to everyone that our capitalistic society is what is 'hurting' these alleged artists. Pirates aren't damaging anyone (as I pointed out in another comment). I really don't care what terms people use, as long as they know the facts.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    13. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by prattle · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sharing implies that you split something rather than duplicate it!

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

      --
      "We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" -- Kurt Vonnegut
    14. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It's sharing, there's no conversion of ownership involved. Unless you're proposing that we come up with a new term for it. It's not allowed under copyright law, but the term for that is sharing nonetheless.

    15. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by StuffMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, sharing of information implies that it is duplicated, not split.

    16. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by melikamp · · Score: 0

      Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing."

      This is incredibly stupid. A digital file (which is just a large integer number) is not "other people's stuff", unless you convince the courts that people should pay YOU for their privilege to help each other. Just because this sharing is illegal, doesn't make it any less of a "sharing". If I stole food from a supermarket and gave some to a hungry child, would I be sharing? Not according to you, apparently, at least not if feeding the hungry is illegal in my jurisdiction. If I take a useful program, fix bugs in it, and give it to everyone for free, just like I got it for free, am I not sharing? If copyright and patent law was to be abolished in a given country, would you consider non-commercial file-copying sharing then?

    17. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by stand · · Score: 1

      Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing."

      If you want to share, create your own work and give it away for free.

      I would not dispute this sentiment. The problem is that there is not, in general, a bright line between "copying other people's stuff" and "creating your own work." That is the essence of pretty much all disputes about copyrights/patents.

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    18. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by melikamp · · Score: 1

      In this case, one side really wants to use the word "stealing" to be used, because of the emotional baggage of associated with it (it's wrong, it's bad, no one honest would do it, ...). The other side wants to use the word "sharing" similarly (it's good, everyone is taught to share, no one is harmed, ...).

      We've all heard the arguments for why firing up a BT client and downloading a file is not "stealing". Will you give as a hint as to why doing the same is not "sharing"? What is it about letting other people to make copies of your files—"your" meaning, the files you have on your computer—what is it about making copies for free, in a non-commercial setting, that makes it unfit to be called "sharing"? Take BT as an example. Is giving voluntary? Yes. Are there strings attached to the exchange? No. From Wiktionary:

      1. To give part of what one has to somebody else to use or consume.

      2. To have in common.

      The first meaning is for physical goods, the second one is for cultural ones. The second meaning does not apply to file-sharing? Ill-suited for it? Why?

    19. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by tepples · · Score: 1

      Copying someone else's work and distributing it without permission or license for free, thus depriving the creator of income counts as theft in my book.

      Does the use of portions of work A in work B that comments on work A likewise count as theft to you?

      [The theft-like aspect of copyright infringement] is not what the FOSS movement is about

      In free software, playback is inseparable from copying. Anything that descrambles scrambled copies for playback can be recompiled into something that descrambles them for making copies.

    20. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is getting tangential, but... As I've argued before, when a debate starts focusing on terminology, both parties need to step back ask why people are worried so much about the terminology. Typically it is because words have added emotional baggage or implications, that either side wants to subtly slip into the debate without actively addressing the point.

      In this case, one side really wants to use the word "stealing" to be used, because of the emotional baggage of associated with it (it's wrong, it's bad, no one honest would do it, ...). The other side wants to use the word "sharing" similarly (it's good, everyone is taught to share, no one is harmed, ...).

      But in an intellectually honest debate, both sides would willingly back off from contentious terminology, and use neutral terms and focus on the particulars. Regardless of whether distributing digital copies is "sharing" or "stealing" (or both, or neither), we should debate whether said distribution is a net gain for society. We should debate whether said distribution violates a party's basic rights. And then from those points, we should debate what law would be both fair and socially-helpful.

      I fully acknowledge that words have meaning, and we should try to be precise with language. But this is exactly why an honest debate should not invoke terms with an intent to capitalize on ambiguity. My main point is not to let debate get derailed by terminology concerns. Focus on the nature and consequences of the activity being debated, rather than ambiguous labels or partial analogies.

      In the case of copyright, it becomes very difficult to argue for the social necessity, and intrinsic justness, of very long-term and rigidly-enforced copyright when you can no longer draw a false analogy to stealing of physical property. Conversely, it becomes difficult to argue that copyright infringement is completely without harm once you remove the sharing rhetoric and focus on the incentive/social-contract aspect of copyright law. In other words, I believe a socially-constructive compromise is more likely to arise from that kind of honest debate (yes, I know how unrealistic it is to expect that kind of debate to actually happen).

      Yep. This is common practice, though. As my Ethics professor pointed out, people love the terms "Pro Choice" and "Pro Life" when talking about abortion because of the positive connotation with each term. The majority of people that are opponents of abortion aren't "Anti Choice" just as much as proponents aren't necessarily "Anti Life".

    21. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Your argument is really as silly as the corporations that claim every pirated copy as a lost sale though. Just as they cannot reasonably claim that every person who pirated the software or other media would have bought it, you can't reasonably claim that every person who pirated it *wouldn't* have bought it. The reality is in the middle. Some people who pirate do so because they can't afford to buy, or to get their hands on things that they otherwise wouldn't have considered worth the money. Other people people pirate to save a few bucks that they can now spend on beer instead of a new album. I know that when I was younger and did my share of pirating, I would have bought at least a reasonable percentage of the stuff had I not been able to get it for free.

      "Potential profit" as the media corporations use it is indeed bullshit, but that doesn't mean that piracy doesn't cost some sales. I can personally vouch for the fact that it does.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    22. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In other words, every bad thing I've said about Windows Vista was theft, since it may have deprived Microsoft of the income from selling more copies? If I bad-mouth Vista and cause five copies not to be sold, why is that different from making five copies and handing them out from Microsoft's point of view? (Answer: the second is better because it gets more people using Microsoft products, and provides less of a market opportunity for competitors.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of copyright, it becomes very difficult to argue for the social necessity, and intrinsic justness, of very long-term and rigidly-enforced copyright when you can no longer draw a false analogy to stealing of physical property. Conversely, it becomes difficult to argue that copyright infringement is completely without harm once you remove the sharing rhetoric and focus on the incentive/social-contract aspect of copyright law. In other words, I believe a socially-constructive compromise is more likely to arise from that kind of honest debate (yes, I know how unrealistic it is to expect that kind of debate to actually happen).

      This reminds me of what's wrong with Congress: Nobody there actually cares about that stuff. The RIAA lobbyist doesn't give two shits about balance or compromise, his job is to convince Congress to pass the DMCA or the Mickey Mouse Act or what have you. And the members of Congress, though they might (or might not) actually care about doing the right thing, only hear arguments from people who have an agenda. There is no advocate for balance in Washington, only two extremes pushing their bills. And when one of the extremes makes more campaign contributions, you see what we get.

    24. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by SheeEttin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Copying other people's stuff and giving it away isn't "sharing." If you want to share, create your own work and give it away for free.

      Let's say you have a car. You lend it to your friend.
      Is that sharing? Yes.
      Now let's say you have the ability to magically duplicate your car, and you give your friend a duplicate so when he needs it, you're not without a car.
      Is that sharing? Yes, but in a different way.

      So, you are still sharing something you have. Remember those "you wouldn't steal a car" ads? They were right, I wouldn't. But if I could get an exact copy such that the owner was not deprived of his car, I sure as hell would! Who wouldn't want a nice car for free?!

      And before someone says that you'd kill the auto industry by not giving them their money for cars... open-source hasn't killed closed (yet). And then there's these guys.

    25. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      More loaded terminology than "stealing" is "intellectual property". I hold two registered copyrights and numerous non-registered ones, and I don't OWN any of the work. I hold a limited time monopoly on them, much like a renter holds a limited time monopoly on the physical property he controls.

      The problem isn't emotionally charged words, it's disingenuity. "Intellectual property" gives rise to the idea that the copyright holder owns the property, which is completely false. The idea of copyright infringemet as "theft" is likewise false. More than simply disingenuous, it's a bald faced lie. Copyright infringement is no more "theft" than it is rape.

      OTOH, "sharing" may be emotionally charged, but it isn't untrue, nor is it disingenuous. If I recieve an item, no matter whether legal, moral, or neither, and give it to you, I'm sharing.

      That's the difference between the two sides in this debate -- one side has to resort to lies, the other simply needs to use emotional language. Who's the villian here?

      I believe a socially-constructive compromise is more likely to arise from that kind of honest debate (yes, I know how unrealistic it is to expect that kind of debate to actually happen).

      Wise of you, since liars will NOT have an honest debate. Meanwhile, some of us use reason to question the length of copyright, while some (me included) think there should be no such thing as noncommercial infringement but heavy penalties for commercial infringement.

      Both Cory Doctorow and Lawrence Lessig do a very good job of debating copyright on rational grounds without resorting to lies, distortion of truth, and emotional language. Can you name a single person on the other side of the debate that does the same?

      Doctorow does use a clever bit of language manipulation in the forward to The Makers:

      There's a dangerous group of anti-copyright activists out there who pose a clear and present danger to the future of authors and publishing. They have no respect for property or laws. What's more, they're powerful and organized, and have the ears of lawmakers and the press.

      I'm speaking, of course, of the legal departments at ebook publishers.

      These people don't believe in copyright law. Copyright law says that when you buy a book, you own it. You can give it away, you can lend it, you can pass it on to your descendants or donate it to the local homeless shelter. Owning books has been around for longer than publishing books has. Copyright law has always recognized your right to own your books. When copyright laws are made -- by elected officials, acting for the public good -- they always safeguard this right.

      But ebook publishers don't respect copyright law, and they don't believe in your right to own property. Instead, they say that when you "buy" an ebook, you're really only licensing that book, and that copyright law is superseded by the thousands of farcical, abusive words in the license agreement you click through on the way to sealing the deal. (Of course, the button on their website says, "Buy this book" and they talk about "Ebook sales" at conferences -- no one says, "License this book for your Kindle" or "Total licenses of ebooks are up from 0.00001% of all publishing to 0.0001% of all publishing, a 100-fold increase!")

      I say to hell with them. You bought it, you own it. I believe in copyright law's guarantee of ownership in your books.

      So you own this ebook. The license agreement (see below), is from Creative Commons and it gives you even more rights than you get to a regular book. Every word of it is a gift, not a confiscation. Enjoy.

    26. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      And if my son shares his ice cream cone with his brother, isn't revenue being 'stolen', since I would have brought a second one if they didn't want to share?

      Lost sales is not an argument; until copyrights were introduced, it was exactly as you say - authors of music, book, plays, etc did usually get paid only for the first copy - by whoever had ordered the work, and it wasn't theft, they got a free market price (of course, in these conditions the market price was much lower than nowadays, where the work comes with an artificial 100 year monopoly on it)

    27. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by mjwx · · Score: 1

      And before someone says that you'd kill the auto industry by not giving them their money for cars... open-source hasn't killed closed

      Even if it does, it wont kill the market.

      Most of us could build our own toaster, but most of them will still pay someone else to manufacture it for them because that effort has value (even if just saving their time). The idea that open sourcing something makes it automatically lose value ignores the fact that people will still be willing to pay for open source to be provided to them.

      If the money is there, a service (business) will expand to take it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    28. Re:Please stop abusing the term "sharing." by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "you can't reasonably claim that every person who pirated it *wouldn't* have bought it"

      What? I never even claimed that in the first place. You must have misunderstood me.

      "but that doesn't mean that piracy doesn't cost some sales"

      Apparently you didn't understand my argument. I can go through example after example of how so many things "cost some sales." You'd be surprised at how many people are guilty of stealing 'potential sales'. The reality, however, is that pirates have taken nothing, and claiming that they cost the artist a sale is completely illogical. It's also a bad idea. In fact, the first example I gave in the comment you replied to illustrates this.

      Let's say that a potential customer of two different businesses is thinking about going to either business. He decides to go to the first business instead of going to the second business to buy products. If the first business hadn't existed or the potential customer had gone to the second business, the second business would have had more money. Therefore, the first business and the potential customer have "cost" the second business a sale. Competition and consumer choice have just robbed a legitimate business of a sale.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  20. And the problem? by Steauengeglase · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given the number of corporate shills who show up at F/OSS conventions peddling things like, "'you people' need to get over software patents" or "sometimes you just can't just hand the source over to the client, its just good for business" or "I'm not calling you people communist -or even traitors, but you have to wonder about someone who doesn't genuinely care about the shareholder's position", I have no problem with Stallman shitting in their yard. Good for him.

    1. Re:And the problem? by Arcaeris · · Score: 1

      Given that 80+% of all stocks and shareholder wealth are owned by the richest 10% of Americans, it should be a crime to care about the "shareholder's position" over that of the average middle-class American.

      Caring about shareholder profits and investor value is inherently favoring the rich over everyone else. They own almost all the stock wealth in this country.

  21. Crashes? by swm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The headline says "crashes".
    The article says "interrupted", but gives no details.
    The article has two pictures (#18 and #19).
    #19 looks like Stallman posing after the event for the benefit of the camera.
    #18 is probably the interruption.
    All you can see from the picture is that Stallman (and friend) stood at the front of a conference room holding poster-board signs.
    It looks like Stallman has a sheaf of papers in his hand, so maybe he said something.

    1. Re:Crashes? by BBTaeKwonDo · · Score: 3, Informative

      TFA linked to the wrong article. http://www.itnews.com.au/News/232825,stallman-crashes-european-patent-session.aspx is the session Stallman "crashed", regarding software patents.

      Stallman didn't crash the World Computer Congress presentation described in TFA's link http://www.itnews.com.au/News/233002,stallman-calls-for-end-to-war-on-sharing.aspx - he was giving the keynote! That's like saying Steve Jobs crashed the Apple Developers Conference presentation.

  22. No, not like the bugs on your arm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, not like the bugs on your arm because those bugs don't exist.

    1. Re:No, not like the bugs on your arm by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      No, not like the bugs on your arm because those bugs don't exist.

      Interesting. Not knowing the fellow myself I wasn't prepared to assume he didn't actually have bugs crawling on his arm...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    2. Re:No, not like the bugs on your arm by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1
      So Stallman's world view is unequivocally accurate, objective fact, and a perfect snapshot of the present and future?

      Or is it some person's view of a world that may, or may well not, exist?

      I'm going more for the latter, which renders your point somewhat moot.

  23. Devil's Advocate by archer,+the · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Company X spends $1B developing a new idea, be it a physical widget or an algorithm. Said company sells widgets or software licenses at $A to recoup the invested money (first) and then to make a profit. Company Y sees the widget or software and can cheaply reverse engineer it, skipping 70% of the development costs. Company Y can sell their product at 0.4*$A and still make profit. Company X only gets $0.2B revenue for the item, and is out $0.8B.

    How would we prevent this situation without IP? If the above happens, no one will want to invest in research, because they'd lose money, even if they "invented" the next IPod.

    Maybe if all research funding came from the public, then all development successes (and failures) would be public knowledge.

    1. Re:Devil's Advocate by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      How much time, effort and money does it take to design the iPod, and set up the facilities to manufacture it in large quanities? How much time, effort and money does it take to replicate the design and set up the facilities to manufacture it in large quantities?

      Not surprisingly, the answers to both questions are very similar -- it takes a lot of time, effort and money even if you are simply copying somebody else's product. By the time a second company can produce "iPots", Apple would have had ample time to recoup its investment and make a profit. Once the iPot comes out, Apple will be forced to innovate again in order to remain competitive -- all patents do is prevent this competition, which is bad for the consumer.

      Notice that this system avoids the "obvious patent" problem. Things that are obvious will take no time for others to replicate, but significant contributions take longer, so competition remains healthy. Should a patent be granted on something obvious (pretty much most software patents today), then competition is severely stifled for 20 years!

    2. Re:Devil's Advocate by BassMan449 · · Score: 1

      You are ignoring several things that usually happen. First off, Company X, being first to market, will likely enjoy better sales even if their product cost more because of name recognition. Being first to market can be a huge boost for any product, and can do an effective job holding off cheap clones. Second, if Company X keeps innovating with their product and doesn't just keep selling said widget as the same product, they will always have an advantage because everyone is constantly playing catch up. Without IP completely companies have to keep improving their products constantly to stay ahead of those that just copy their product and sell it.

      As far as IP is concerned I don't think it should be gotten rid of completely. Copyright should be either gotten rid of or made very short, say 5 years max. I like patents on actual inventions, but there needs to be two major changes. We need to greatly limit what is patentable, including getting rid of software patents and business model patents all together. Also patents need to be shortened. With the current pace of technology 20 years is too long. For most things I would say 10 probably is about right, but a system that has different lengths for different kinds of technology may be benefitial.

    3. Re:Devil's Advocate by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      I think he meant copyright not patents.

    4. Re:Devil's Advocate by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      If CompanyX's software was RMS 'Free', company y wouldn't even need to reverse engineer it. They could just use it. Of course the thing to sell in that scenario is not the software, but the implementation. Lets say that CompanyX makes a free and open OS to run on mobile entertainment devices. We'll call it Robot. Company X makes specialized hardware to run Robot and sells it. Company Y takes Robot and installs it on hardware they've manufactured and competes directly with Compay X. Consumers decide that Company X's implementation isn't that great and buy the other one. So what? Company X should have made a better implementation. Maybe Company X has more opportunities to make a profit up its sleeve from Robot. Company Y has to stay on it's game though because if someone else has a better idea for Robot, they could make a killer product that takes consumers from Company Y. The end result is increased competition and it's a win for the consumer.

      Incidentally, Company X seems to be doing just fine.

    5. Re:Devil's Advocate by horza · · Score: 1

      There are some flaws in your argument. For instance, there will be a lead time in X launching, and Y being able to reverse engineer and then launch the product. You would gear your marketing and sales forecasting to take this into account. By the time Y is launched, X then announces a new feature only available for X.

      What will happen is that instead of Company X using their money to pursue legal battles, they will instead create the iPod2 to get a steal over their competitor Y. Company Y will then have to develop an even better iPod3. The public would then be forced to choose between ever improving versions of the iPod.

      Phillip.

    6. Re:Devil's Advocate by mrogers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the above happens, no one will want to invest in research, because they'd lose money, even if they "invented" the next IPod.

      But Apple didn't invent the portable MP3 player. "Research, invent, commoditise, sell" is a plausible-sounding business plan, and I'm sure it sometimes works out that way, but much more commonly, companies learn from each other's mistakes and release competing products with small improvements. Apple realised people wanted an MP3 player that was slick rather than geeky-looking, so they repackaged it. That was their innovation. And it's a good thing - I'm not knocking that kind of incremental innovation. Patents harm that way of innovating, though, because the only companies that can play the game are those with big enough patent portfolios to deter their competitors from suing.

      The portfolio problem applies to blue-sky innovation too. Imagine you invented the portable MP3 player from scratch in your garage and patented it. A year later, Apple releases the iPod. What are you going to do? If you sue, they can just pull some ridiculously broad patent out of their portfolio and counter-sue until you lose everything. The best you can do is to sell your patent to one of their competitors for use in their portfolio, and good luck getting a decent price when the buyer has all the lawyers.

      There is one area where patents work more or less as expected, though, and that's drug development. Drug companies have a pretty good track record of throwing money at a problem until they get a usable drug (often usable for a different problem, admittedly), patenting the drug, and recouping their investment within the lifetime of the patent. Everything would be wonderful except for two catches: the money available to pay for a drug doesn't always match its social importance (the malaria problem), and the price of the drug while it's under patent may be too high for many of the people who need it (the HIV problem).

      We've tried to patch the malaria problem through charitable funding of drug development, and the HIV problem through charitable subsidisation of drug prices, but both patches exacerbate the underlying problem by putting yet more patents and yet more money into the hands of the incumbent drug developers, meaning that next time we run into similar problems they'll be even more expensive to solve. The only solution I can think of is to create a public interest exception for patent licenses, coupled with public funding of socially important research, because the private money will move to areas that aren't covered by the public interest exception. But that sounds too much like dirty commie talk for a lot of people's liking. ;-)

    7. Re:Devil's Advocate by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      Patents are merely tools used by powerful companies to stifle competition. They do not protect inventors or inventions and prevent others from combining the best ideas from multiple patents into new products. Since profit and market position are king in the world economy, patents are always used to control competitors instead of producing new and innovative products. It is rarely necessary to actually produce products that would be covered by a patent because potential competitors are prevented from using them, maintaining the status quo. The result is a stifling of new inventions and corporations hoarding patent portfolios as a means of market control instead of innovation.

      Promotion of the arts and sciences my ass.

    8. Re:Devil's Advocate by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      You hit the nail on the head. How DO you fairly ensure that company X, if in competition with company Y, recoups their $B of R&D while ensuring that Y is not artificially prevented from making money if they, for instance, have a much more efficient R&D and manufacturing process in the long run? Does telling Y to stuff it for 25 years work? Of course not. Does it work to make X lose $B because they're inefficient? Of course not.

      The only fair patent right would be the ability to solely manufacture a product and sell it until initial R&D costs are recouped from profits. At that point the playing field should be level (or even in favor of the patent holder who has a running production line and experience with it).

      To keep patent holders from overestimating the value of their portfolios, patents could be taxed as assets at their unrecovered R&D value. In other words, the first year the patent is taxed on $B, and the second year it is taxed at a value of ($B - $P) where $P is profits. To be fair, the profits could be tax-free until the patent expired. This would drive patent holders to estimate a fair market value for their R&D, because they could simply sell the patent to another more efficient manufacturer for R&D costs to avoid the taxes over a more prolonged production period to make up expenses. Patents could also be required to be put on the open market for their stated value to prevent patent trolls from stifling innovation with cheap, worthless patents and the threat of lawsuits.

      I guess now all I need is a swarm of lobbyists.

    9. Re:Devil's Advocate by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      How much time, effort and money does it take to design the iPod, and set up the facilities to manufacture it in large quanities? How much time, effort and money does it take to replicate the design and set up the facilities to manufacture it in large quantities?

      The answer to the second question is "none" if you're the Chinese sweatshop Apple hired to produce the iPod. At most you might lack a firmware image that gets loaded in California, and I doubt even Apple is that paranoid.

    10. Re:Devil's Advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Company X spends $1B developing a new idea, be it a physical widget or an algorithm. Said company sells widgets or software licenses at $A to recoup the invested money (first) and then to make a profit. Company Y sees the widget or software and can cheaply reverse engineer it, skipping 70% of the development costs. Company Y can sell their product at 0.4*$A and still make profit. Company X only gets $0.2B revenue for the item, and is out $0.8B.

      How would we prevent this situation without IP?

      With the concept of patents as it was originally defined, this situation is resolved like so:

      Company X spends $1B developing a new idea, be it a physical widget or an algorithm. Said company patents their widget or software. In exchange for full disclosure of the fabrication process, Company X is given exclusive rights to sell their widget or a license to their software at $A to recoup the invested money (first) and then to make a profit. Company Y knows that the patent exists as it is a matter of public record, and if they want to develop a competing product, they need to provide another implementation. They can see the patent and knows what ideas are off-limits. If competing in that market is so important to Company Y, they can spend somewhere close to $1B developing a different idea that accomplishes a similar task, and they might be able to get away with selling their product slightly below $A and still make profit. Company X still gets their $1B and maybe Company Y can recoup their losses if they decide to develop a competing product.

      The way software patents are being handled, the following is happening:

      Company X spends $1B developing a new idea, be it a physical widget or an algorithm. Said company patents their widget or software, but avoids disclosing the implementation via copyright law or the application of "trade secrets". They can sell their widgets or software licenses at $A which is enough to recoup the invested money within a month, leaving the rest of the time to make a profit. Company Y may or may not the widget or software, but even if they know the product exists they can't see the implementation. Further, there is the concept of a "Submarine Patent" so that Company Y does not even know that the patent exists. Company Y can attempt to clean-house re-engineer the widget or software (if they even know it exists), but even if their implementation is different Company X will sue them. Company Y won't get to sell their product, and Company X gets more money from their shell-game they played with Company Y.

      Oh, here's another scenario:

      Company X thinks up an idea, spends the bare minimum on development costs to file a patent, and doesn't even sell their product, instead filing their Submarine Patent and waiting for Company Y to hit on a similar idea. Then, Company X sues for patent infringement even though Company Y had no way of knowing the patent even existed, and even if they did their technology only infringes by a very loose interpretation of a vague patent. Company X gets a pay-day for a vague idea of a widget that he didn't even develop, and Company Y gets left holding the bag.

      And that's why software patents and patent trolling have left a bad taste in people's mouths.

    11. Re:Devil's Advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Company X spends $1B developing a new idea, be it a physical widget or an algorithm. Said company sells widgets or software licenses at $A to recoup the invested money (first) and then to make a profit. Company Y sees the widget or software and can cheaply reverse engineer it, skipping 70% of the development costs. Company Y can sell their product at 0.4*$A and still make profit. Company X only gets $0.2B revenue for the item, and is out $0.8B.

      How would we prevent this situation without IP?

      You cannot prevent it with IP. This is why there is unrest, because fools are trying to keep making profits in obsolete ways, and they are willing to destroy or pervert anything that threatens their obsolete profit model.

      If the above happens, no one will want to invest in research, because they'd lose money, even if they "invented" the next IPod.

      Nope. False. They will not want to invest in research for sale, which is probably a good thing when you consider how science-for-sale perverts political processes. Instead, they will research tools and techniques that they can use to make money.

      For example, here's the old and new ways to do business:

      Old way: IBM invents an algorithm that can help car makers build better cars. They build a software product and sell it to Lotus, Ferrari and Porsche. Those makers build better cars, and in the places where you can get those cars, the people who can afford those cars buy them. IBM, Lotus, Ferrari, Porsche, and the subset of customers who can profit from having better cars all profit! The employees and owners of the profit-making group get to have better nutrition, better educations, fancier holidays, happier lives with less effort, win win win. For those people... as long as IBM can pay off politicians, and use government enforcers to kill or imprison anyone who attempts to reproduce their technique.

      New way: All car makers hire programmers who join Open Source projects that are developed by all the car makers in the world. A new algorithm is developed and shared. All the makers have the opportunity to build better cars, and all customers are given the opportunity to buy better cars. Differences in cars are driven by customer needs and demographics, and by how well the workers and managers of each company do their jobs. The company with better welders (which is probably the company that pays for better working conditions, since the best welders will gravitate to the best jobs) builds stronger, prettier cars because the welds are cleaner. Win win win... for a much larger group, that has fewer parasitic elements who do not contribute value.

      People just have to discard the old model. The new model is better because it recognises the fundamental truth that economies improve as connections between individuals multiply, and certain forms of IP law act to limit those connections artificially by preventing sharing.

      The old way, however, allows lazy people and people with control fetishes to build nests for themselves where they can gain value without contributing. So those people will fight to the death to keep their way of life. They want to be at the top of the mountain, and they don't want to have to learn new skills or work hard, so they concentrate on kicking everyone else down.

    12. Re:Devil's Advocate by ivogan · · Score: 1

      Company X has a right to TRY to make a profit. They do not however have a right to guaranteed profit. If Company Y can (even through reverse engineering) do it cheaper/better/faster then more power to them. That's called competition. Your argument of reverse engineering brings us to the bigger reason for pushing back against IP, and that is the current dismal state of copyright laws. My opinion is the original copyright limits remain the most proper. Most things in the consumer markets are well into the bargain basement seven years after release and technology improved a few times over. If a music album hasn't made a profit in seven years, it probably won't in the next 113. Yes protections should be provided for inventors, but reasonable limits MUST be applied to make it effective.

      The M.O. we're seeing in the US today is that if your business model is failing, petition the government to create laws to ensure your continued relevance, however futile your attempts may eventually prove to be. A concrete dam can't hold back ALL the water... and eventually it will fail.

      --
      Who was that pointy-eared bastard?
  24. clarification by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    apologies: i meant intellectual property in regards to only one kind of intellectual property: media

    anything that is consumed as electronic bits: books, music, movies, should be completely devoid of any intellectual property conventions

    but information that is not consumed electronically, that is, information that describes the creation of real world technologies: yes, that should continue to enjoy intellectual property law protections, because it concerns real world effort and expense

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:clarification by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      apologies: i meant intellectual property in regards to only one kind of intellectual property: media

      anything that is consumed as electronic bits: books, music, movies, should be completely devoid of any intellectual property conventions

      But that system will never work. Anyone that produces those kinds of media will never put it into electronic formats if they will lose their ability to make money of off it. Your system would encourage content producers to limit themselves to archaic copy-protected distribution models, and potentially large segments of society will never be able to see the cultural benefit of their work.

      Some level of reasonable IP protection has to be in place to allow content producers the ability to generate content. We need to come to some agreement about what level of protection is reasonable, but some protection is absolutely necessary.

    2. Re:clarification by galoise · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have a crucial point that you fail to see: those two forms of IP are already distinguished in legal institutions: copyright and patents. the problem, is that both legal institutions are being extended out of control... but the difference is there, and we only need to adjust one (patents) and abolish the other.

      But independently of that particular solution, the fact that technological development makes some particular form of social institution or enterprise obsolete is not the problem. If the invention of the wheel made some forms of transportation obsolete, considerations about the preservation or future or pre-wheel forms of transportation should not be valid arguments in discussions about development and deployment of the wheel.

      In other words....it doesn't matter. The problem right now is not how are we going to secure that there are incentives for people to invent stuff, but that the mechanisms that we do have in place, that were never created with that intention but also work as incentive structures, are becoming unacceptable threats to the public interest and freedom.

      First we need to stop the escalation into police states that the extension of these mechanisms is bringing about, THEN we should let the people that are trying to make money inventing stuff work out how they are going to actually make any.

      In other words: the "technological development" argument is moot. it is not going to happen, period. So don't use it to respond to my complaints about my lost freedoms, because i'm being monitored, censored, persecuted, fined and incarcerated NOW, and you want me to worry about the potential profit problem of some corporation in some undefined future. get your priorities right.

      As a subsidiary argument, you can reconsider the reasons that were argued in its time for the implementation of IP protection. it was never "let's secure a revenue stream for the author", it was much more a thing of "let's secure the integrity of the produced media for the future, by preventing unauthorized sub-par copies to be made and distributed". That line of thought rests, however, on the direct correlation between cheap copy and low quality copy that digital media makes obsolete.

      --
      entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
  25. i need a clarification, apologies by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Interesting
    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  26. Free software is good for the economy by bouldin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would tell the corporate world that free software is good for the economy, and good for their business.

    There are plenty of vendors out there who have built products on top of Linux, Apache, etc.

    If Linux, Apache, etc. were not available for free, these vendors either would not have been able to launch their products, or would have paid huge licensing fees for crap like the Microsoft web server, driving up their prices.

    If it weren't for these kinds of public software projects, everything would be more expensive, from consumer electronics to enterprise appliances.

  27. After reading the first three words of the title.. by zrbyte · · Score: 2, Funny

    Was I the only one who hoped that his katana would be involved?

  28. bullshit by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Interesting

    because what you are saying is completely unenforceable

    the future is the death of content producers. and by that i mean old school distributors. artists will produce directly, with financial outlays coming from passion. if it ignites in popularity, ancillary revenues: personalized content, concert gigs, cinema houses: these will provide a return on investment. and this does not mean we are forced to watch amateur youtube videos in the future. one of the most most expensive, and most profitable movie, ever made, avatar, made it all in cinema houses. this is a non-internet, controlled environment where you have to buy a ticket. this is never going away because no one enjoys watching movies by yourself in your basement. nothing is threatened except the dvd market. and why do we need constraints on our freedoms for the sake of propping up a dying media format and a dying business model?

    there is no guarantee that an investment in the production of movies, music, or books will result in a financial return. nor should there ever be. most artists were starving, are starving, and will forever more starve. they make art out of passion, and that's all you ever need, and that's all that ever matters, and that's much more powerful than intellectual property law

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But would Avatar had made it in cinema houses if someone could make a good digital recording and re-re-release it in other digital houses at discount rates? It is media, after all....

  29. Indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For example, in my mind, a government that locks non-violent human beings in cages for engaging in recreational drug use is incredibly extremist. The reason the majority doesn't see it that way is because they've spent their entire lives knowing nothing but the status quo, and therefore can't imagine it being any different.

  30. hey, genius by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if you can't afford a book, you can't afford to learn. and you can't afford a book if the only ones around are scribbled by monks. and so, a dummy, who can't read and knows nothing, you go work the fields, like your serf parents before you

    fact: the printing press created the middle class as we know it today. the existence of a large middle class supports the notion of a democracy being an effect political possibility

    the cities have always had craftsmen and tradesmen, since before roman and even egyptian times. but they were always tiny sectors, not the vast middle class we know today. that one of those tradesmen, gutenberg, invented the printing press, thereby resulting in the explosion of the middle class: this is solid historical fact

    but thank you for cherry picking small fragments of reality to support a conception of history which is patently false. pfffft

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:hey, genius by Duradin · · Score: 1

      You're skipping a few steps in the serf to educated middle class progression.

      A major one is having the time to be educated. It's why there's those pesky child labor laws. When a kid is stuck in a sweatshop for 18 hours a day they aren't able to get an education outside of what is necessary to do their tasks. Make it impossible to send your kid off somewhere for some extra income then sending them off for education is a lot more palatable.

      Improved agricultural techniques (more food for less work) was a necessary precursor to the rise of the middle class.

    2. Re:hey, genius by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      So apparently the Crusades (which expanded the mind of many people who previously would never have been off the manor), the Bubonic Plague (Which killed off so many people that there were power vacuums allowing people to rise in status), the Reformation (which just did all kinds of things, including both of the things listed above, plus creating a huge whole in the social order by removing the Church), or the dozens of the other factors involved were actually unimportant? Damn. You should be a historian. They'd love to hear they missed such a simple and obvious reason for the rise of a middle class.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  31. Re:After reading the first three words of the titl by elmodog · · Score: 1

    No, I was hoping to see his katana as well.

  32. Humans who own stock benefit when... by tepples · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How much "interest" does the janitor cleaning Microsoft's floors really have?

    That depends on how much of his pay the janitor has squirreled away to buy MSFT stock.

    Let Human Rights be for humans.

    Humans own companies' stock, and these humans benefit when the company benefits. Humans work for companies, such as the inventors listed on every patent assigned to Microsoft.

    1. Re:Humans who own stock benefit when... by sakshale · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a problem currently with laws that were written with humans in mind, being interpreted to cover corporations.

      For example; California's property tax reform a few decades back, was written to protect older citizen's from being taxed out of their family homes. It limits the amount your property tax can go up, unless you sell your property or perform a major upgrade. Now, however, there is a problem. Corporations also own property, but quite often they never sell it or transfer it... and they don't die of old age. There is simply no mechanism in place to allow Corporations to have the value of their property reassessed on a periodic basis to adjust their property tax to reflect current value.

      Whether this is good or bad is not the point. The point I am making is that corporations are not human beings and thus laws written for human beings might not work as intended when applied to corporations.

      --
      For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious and wrong.
    2. Re:Humans who own stock benefit when... by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Solution: no property tax. ;)

    3. Re:Humans who own stock benefit when... by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Saying "humans are part of corporations" makes about as much as sense as saving "humans are part of slave plantations" or "huans are part of prisons". While all three statements are technically true, neither the corporations nor the plantation nor the prison is representing the workers within. On the contrary these THINGS typically work to suppress the humans inside their boundaries.

      The workers should be allowed to exercise their rights (voting, free speech, etc) while the corporate plantation has none whatsoever. Things don't have human rights, because things are not human.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Humans who own stock benefit when... by stuckinphp · · Score: 0

      "was written to protect older citizen's" .. why are corporations sitting under this law then?

      --
      if only
  33. UDHR: article 19 vs. article 28 by tepples · · Score: 1

    If you're not a dirty criminal, what have you got to lose?

    Some people are indeed deemed dirty criminals by their country's standards, but in many cases, this is because they live in a country whose legislators are even dirtier criminals by international standards for encroaching on UN-recognized human rights. In the case of the article, the legislators may have failed to strike a constructive balance between article 19 (free speech) and article 28 (copyright clause).

  34. Creating own works under an imprimatur? by tepples · · Score: 1

    If you want to share, create your own work and give it away for free.

    There are two problems with it. A single company or an oligopoly might have imprimatur power over works in a given medium. (This is the case for video games played on TVs.) Or the incumbent publishers might claim that your work is not in fact original but instead copied in part from a mainstream work. (See for example Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music, Tetris v. BioSocia, and SCO v. IBM.)

  35. Agreement to provide potential profit by tepples · · Score: 1

    What income are they depriving the creator of? Is it potential profit?

    It is the potential profit that the U.S. people through their representatives in Congress have theoretically agreed to grant. (I say "theoretically" because the beneficiaries of this grant happen to control the news media, which in turn control the selection of representatives.)

  36. wait what? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    child labor laws became an issue in the 1800s. i'm talking about what happened at least 300 years before that. and i'm skipping steps?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:wait what? by Duradin · · Score: 1

      It's called an example.

      More food for less work meant more "leisure" time. Preventing children from spending all their time in the factory gave them the time necessary to be educated. "A major one is having the time to be educated." directly preceding the section.

  37. Re:Note to Richard by retchdog · · Score: 1

    It'd be nice if the various foo-modes' syntax highlighting updated immediately. I get a little bit of anxiety everytime I open a quote, since if I don't close it immediately, the whole subsequent buffer will stay pink for up to 10 seconds after I close it. I am guessing this is an intrinsic limitation in the hooking backend of emacs; either that, or every foo-mode was based on the crappy C-mode, and inherited its mistakes.

    Also it'd be great if the line-number-mode didn't crap itself upon opening a file larger than O(10K) lines. This really baffles me, because M-x count-lines still works and M-x goto-line still works. The only thing is that the line indicator at the status bar says "L??". This problem has persisted for years.

    I'd also be grateful if the configuration interface were smoothed out a bit. It took an hour for me to learn how to change the typeface for various modes, and I still don't totally get it. This has gotten a lot better recently, but it's still a little weird, to the beginner, to have to jump through so many hoops just to change the font. It could be presented much more cleanly.

    Also, it's worth noting that anti-aliasing sat around half-finished for nearly a decade. Another bug they recently fixed was an immediate hard crash, if you resized a frame past the edge of window.

    So yeah, for something three decades old and up to version 23(!), emacs has a shocking number of gotchas. That it's still the best editor in existence is a testament to its basic design goals and philosophy, but man it could sure use some brushing up...

    --
    "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
  38. yes, yes, yes by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    it would still make the same money

    your argument depends on the completely false belief that someone who would watch avatar for free at home would pay to watch it. not the same population fo people

    additionally i don't know what you mean by "re-re-release it in other digital houses at discount rates"

    we are talking about media consumed for free. if you own a cinema house, and charge for media product, you are playing by a completely different set of rules, and intellectual property law is the least of your obligations. plus, you can shut down rogue cinema houses. you can't shut down the internet. intellectual property law is still enforceable in meat space, just not cyberspace

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  39. Re:There are so many new threats to freedom by tunapez · · Score: 1

    Don't you worry about it, son. Google, FaceBook, VZW, Comcast, Microsoft and many, many, many more providers have their very own army of lawyers looking into that right now.

    --
    Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
  40. thank you, thank you, thank you by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    mod +9, couldn't have said it better myself xoxoxoxoxox

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  41. Re:He's LOSING it man !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am not! And if I find you I will make you eat your head from your asshole. Try me.

  42. wrong by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    none of those things you mention would have resulted in the middle class, since by themselves they explain nothing. the crucial essential occurrence to create the middle class is this: you need a way to make knowledge transfer cheap and easy. that is only made possible by a technological disruption: the cheap mass produced book

    every other historical event you describe is merely a footnote, a dramatic backdrop. none of the phenomenon you mention were the crucial component of the rise of the modern middle class, only the printing press is. if any of the events you mentioned had not happened, the middle class would still have been born. meanwhile, if the printing press had not happened, but everything else you mentioned still happened exactly the same way, then there would be no middle class. so you have a lot of orthogonal and tangential history in your objections, but you have nothing absolutely essential to the creation of the modern middle class

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:wrong by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Are you mad? Most of those thing were critical to the rise of the middle class. Without the power vacuums created by the Plague and the Reformation their would never have been anywhere for the Middle Class to go. Who do you think bought the books that Gutenberg originally published? A bunch of poor illiterate peasants who hoped that someone would come along to teach them to read 'em? I'm not denying that the printing press was one of the great inventions of history, nor that history would have been dramatically different without it; but to give it sole and unswerving credit for the raise of the middle class is ludicrous.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    2. Re:wrong by shadowofwind · · Score: 1

      Lots and lots of countries still have almost no middle class, even though the printing press has been around for quite a while now. So maybe other factors, such as some of those mentioned, do matter some also?

      Not that you're wrong about Stallman, or that the printing press wasn't important, or that your post deserved to be attacked like it was.

  43. Re:Note to Richard by grumbel · · Score: 1

    The latest version (23) does have antialiased fonts

    For me under Ubuntu the anti-aliased fonts render extremely slow, i.e. so slow that scrolling becomes close to unusable when the CPU happens to be busy, say when you are compiling in the background. Not sure if there is something wrong with the font I use, the setup or whatever, but it is kind of bothersome that in 2010 a text editor fails at rendering text.

    Anyway, that bug aside, Emacs really could need a rewrite. Emacs did have had a lot of good ideas back when it was written some decades ago and many of those still hold up, but in other areas it just shows its age far to clearly (everything "GUI" is a joke, no real multithreading, no good Intellisense alternative, bad defaults everywhere, ASCII art where real graphics should be used, etc.).

  44. Re:yes, yes, no... I mean, yes. by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    additionally i don't know what you mean by "re-re-release it in other digital houses at discount rates"

    The basic question is this:

    If movie theaters had had the option of buying and showing inexpensive, high-quality bootleg copies of "Avatar" instead of getting the movie through the normal channels, wouldn't that have impacted the movie's profits?

    Under current laws this can't work because the theaters in question would pretty likely get nailed to the wall by lawsuits. But if "video piracy" were fully legitimized, the theaters could show whatever they like...

    So I think there is a pretty good argument that removing the "intellectual property" protections would prevent people from making profitable massive-budget blockbuster films... Any single target that large would become victim to "piracy".

    My personal theory about how something like this would play out is that it would result in diversification of our culture. Huge film budgets would cease to be profitable, so films would be made on more modest budgets - and the number of films would increase. Smaller studios would then have greater access to theaters. I don't know if this is really how it would play out, but it seems like an interesting possibility to me.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  45. lets go further: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    the protestant reformation was made possible by the printing press

    the reformation was not orthogonal to the printing press, the reformation was fueled by the printing press. mass produced bibles meant mass speculation as to religious conviction, rather than being spoonfed the religious scripture from the only one guy in the room who could actually read. therefore, any effects of the reformation that you can say points to the creation of the middle class is yet another effect of the printing press, ultimately

    therefore, i will move in direction contradiction to what you are saying and widen my thesis by saying that only the middle class, but protestantism as well was made possible by the printing press

    the printing press is absolutely crucial. every objection you raise is tangential, background spectacle

    anything else you need help with today?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  46. you need a clarification: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    cyberspace is not meatspace

    anything in the real world can, and should be controlled

    anything in cyberspace cannot, and should not

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1796976&cid=33675310

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  47. Re:Predicted politician response in the coming day by sorak · · Score: 1

    Our enemies withing the FSF are behind the Reichstag Firewall!

  48. Re:Note to Richard by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

    * I guess emacs has some esoteric plugins that Jedit not; I'm speaking here about the core application

    That's all well and good, if we were talking about applications -- we're not. We're talking about emacs, which is an operating system.

    Sheesh.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  49. You won't find profit as the reason for US copyrig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You won't find profit as the reason for US copyrights. You won't find the point of copyright being "to guarantee profit" ANYWHERE.

    But persisting in stating this lie is a common tactic for the leeches.

  50. Someone who posts to /. with bugs crawling over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone who posts to /. with bugs crawling over them would probably be nuts and therefore wouldn't NEED bugs on their arm.

    But me, I just assume that people are rational, maybe YOUR world has rational people who will post to people "bugs crawling all over me, but I must finish reading slashdot" whilst probably wearing underpants on their head...

    Not knowing the fellow yourself, you'd think he'd rather post here than brush off bugs crawling on his arm?

    I think you impugn the gentleman...

  51. If I were a European Taxpayer by theolein · · Score: 1

    Living in Europe, I think most European Taxpayers would dearly love to know what the fuck the European Patent Office is doing making presentations at a computer conference on the other side of the world.

  52. you need a banana by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    cyberspace is not meatspace

    anything in the real world can, and should be controlled

    anything in cyberspace cannot, and should not

    Regardless of how I feel about that issue, the point of my post was to clarify someone else's point, which you seemed to be having trouble understanding.

    But personally I think that your distinction is a little silly. "cyberspace" vs. "meatspace"? What's the difference?

    Basically, what is patented or copyrighted in any case is an idea. It's not the new type of electric motor that gets patented, it's the idea for how it works. But information, once known, can be passed freely. Protecting ideas on the basis of who came up with them is entirely an artificial construct. This doesn't really speak to whether that's a good thing (water and sewer systems, for instance, are also "artificial constructs", with benefits and, I expect, disadvantages...) - just that the distinction between "cyberspace ideas" and "meatspace ideas" is meaningless. It's all just ideas.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  53. Agreed 110% (unfortunately the world's how it is) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject line above, and realize that 3/4 of this world is filled with useless hucksters/thieves that live off of others work (RIAA &/or MPAA being PRIME EXAMPLES THEREOF) &/or creativity/abilities etc./et al. If you could get even 1/2 of that "kind" off their asses to actually learn to do something that's useful instead (of what they do now/how they make their living now)? The world would be a FAR BETTER PLACE! Unfortunately, again, see subject-line. Makes me sick/ill sometimes, and ashamed to be a human being. I do agree that others ought to be paid for their work, albeit, ONLY if they themselves did the actual work producing the good or service being provided however... not just "buying something for a buck and selling it for 10 (and paying the actual producer of said good or service .005% of the actual price sold).

  54. A false choice by DesScorp · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I'd prefer Stallman's outspoken extremism vs the quiet extremism that corporations would place us under if no one spoke up.

    I prefer neither of them. Stallman is as much of an extremist as the people and companies that he's fighting. I don't want a world without copyright of any kind OR draconian copyright laws. I want reasonable protection for content providers as well as reasonable fair use laws. I will not accept that my only recourse is to take Stallman's revolutionary position, or the position of companies that tell me I don't own the software or music that I buy.

    The whole "digital rights" scene increasingly reminds me of the Spanish Civil War, where people were pressed to pick a side. But the sides were Fascists vs. Communists. I don't want to pick either side, thank you very much. They both suck.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  55. no, completely wrong by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    i can give you the design of an internal combustion engine. to put this this design to some use requires real world involvement of time energy and resources. the idea has no value to you until i instantiate it as a real product. this is intellectual property that should still be controlled because it involves real world investments of material and energy

    meanwhile i can give you copy of the movie avatar. the simple pattern of bits that make up the movie rquires no real world involvement, the bits can be enjoyed in and of themselves on a computer monitor. this is a different kind of "intellectual property" because the idea itself is also the product

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  56. It's great that you're such an expert, but... by Tetsujin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    meanwhile i can give you copy of the movie avatar. the simple pattern of bits that make up the movie rquires no real world involvement, the bits can be enjoyed in and of themselves on a computer monitor. this is a different kind of "intellectual property" because the idea itself is also the product

    Suppose it weren't an actual copy of the film "Avatar" - let's say it was just the script.

    Now, as people seem to be very fond of pointing out - there's not a lot to it. Basic premise, rehashed story, Mulan/Ferngully/yada yada. What makes the movie is its presentation... The quality of the graphics and how well they're animated, the voice, sound, and music work, and so on. All of these things together represent a tremendous amount of "real world" work, and it's that real world work that's made this "simple" pattern of bits valuable. That sequence of bits could have been pounded out on the keyboard by monkeys, by random chance - but the point is, it wasn't.

    There are other ways the same story could be presented - a talented storyteller could make it into a good campfire story, people could perform it onstage, it could be a musical - whatever - but the point is that in any case, that basic idea isn't good for much without all that work that goes into the presentation.

    In other words, it isn't the idea that's the product, it's the product that's the product. The only difference is how convenient it is to replicate the product.

    Put it the other way: ripping off someone else's motor design requires a bit of effort, expertise, and money. Not as much as making a new motor design, but enough to fit your argument that this is a fundamentally "real world" thing. So why should that idea then get extra protection that other ideas don't? What's the justification?

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  57. XKCD FTW by Larryish · · Score: 1

    http://xkcd.com/774/

    Good stuff, Maynard.

  58. Let's say you're in school . . . still !! And by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I copy all your homework, examinations, and lab work. Do you care that you grade is now no better than mine? How about if the whole class copied you? Let's we all, save for one who did his own work, copied you, and you got 90% right. Now the whole class got this, so that's average, and the one who did his own work, didn't allow the cheat to copy, is the only one with the excel mark. You go on to flip burgers, with all those who copied you, and I, who didn't allow the cheats, rose to the stardom I have.

    It's true !!

  59. Notepad++ does this too, kinda? by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    It'd be nice if the various foo-modes' syntax highlighting updated immediately. I get a little bit of anxiety everytime I open a quote, since if I don't close it immediately, the whole subsequent buffer will stay pink for up to 10 seconds after I close it.

    I don't do any real coding, but I do use Notepad++ when editing my HTML files; if you type the opening tag, the entire rest of the document is colorcoded that way until you get to typing the closing tag. That sounds kinda like that.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    1. Re:Notepad++ does this too, kinda? by retchdog · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and now imagine that even after you close the tag, the narcoleptic editor doesn't realize it for a few more seconds.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    2. Re:Notepad++ does this too, kinda? by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Ick. Yeah, I can visualize what you mena, especially if it's your job and/or major hobby to do this on a regular basis.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  60. Re:Note to Richard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just so you know, it's really 0.23. They just dropped the zero because they decided they're not going to do a redesign, ever.

  61. Re:Note to Richard by retchdog · · Score: 1

    :)

    23 minor versions then.

    This really only makes it worse.

    --
    "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
  62. Re: on the viability of free software by neonsignal · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure that you understand Stallman's position at all if you think he is talking about the viability of free software.

    He has consistently presented a case that it is unethical to distribute non-free software.

    Since many people place pragmatic considerations over ideals, it is a message that will take more than just a couple of decades to become widely accepted. The politically sane prefer to reflect whatever their focus groups tell them to.

  63. the justification is economics by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    the internet means that distribution is instantaneous, to anywhere, for zero $

    if you spent $1 billion making a movie, you will recoup it in live cinema, advertising, product tie ins, etc. what you will not do is attempt to put tollgates on the internet that will be routed around anyways. not because i say so out of some "information wants to be free man" bullshit, but because the tollbooths you seek to build are simply impossible to enforce. in toher words, i am not describing an alternative ideology to you, i am describing simple reality that pre-internet culture and laws that have to do with policing now defunct distribution media need to catch up to

    artists don't need distributors anymore. they can self produce and self distribute, gain fame that aways, and fame can be turned into profit, if not pursued for its own sake

    books and music require very little production value

    movies require high production value, but, much like music, a healthy income can still be derived in real world venues. remember avatar?

    the whole point is, i don't care how much you spend making that movie. you can not put toll booths on the internet to recoup those expenses. not because i say so, but because that is impossible. not that people aren't trying, but they would rather destroy free speech itself and impose the incorporation of our culture on us and destroy all that is good about the internet in order to try to make a buck on a medium which works best when it is simply not controlled

    no, instead, old school distributors and the laws governing them will simply die. this is better for society. you recoup, like avatar did, in real world venues, or you use free media on the internet to build name recogition and fame that can be cashed in via ancillary means later

    adapt to the new reality, or die

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:the justification is economics by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      not because i say so out of some "information wants to be free man" bullshit, but because the tollbooths you seek to build are simply impossible to enforce. in pther words, i am not describing an alternative ideology to you, i am describing simple reality that pre-internet culture and laws that have to do with policing now defunct distribution media need to catch up to

      I think your understanding of the phrase "information wants to be free" is a little incorrect.

      It was never about what information wants - it was a way of characterizing a natural tendency of information in an economic sense. It "wants to be expensive" because of the investment that goes into creating that information. It "wants to be free" because, as you say, the costs of distribution and copying are practically zero.

      adapt to the new reality, or die

      It's not quite that simple. The "new reality" is decided by people. The nature of the internet is not guaranteed to remain the same ten years from now - and with money at stake, I think you will find, ultimately, that the internet can be "policed" by people seeking to protect their copyrights.

      Basically, I think your position isn't quite sound enough to consider it a "reality" that these old, antiquated media companies must "adapt to..., or die". These companies have a stake in the future, too, and the resources to impact the course the internet takes in the future. There is already a fight going on to determine this course... The inherently free nature of the internet you believe in is by no means assured.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  64. Re:Note to Richard by sourcerror · · Score: 1

    It's funny to get modded that high up for a reply on an offtopic comment. Wouldnt that qualify me as offtopic too?

  65. Re: on the viability of free software by hey! · · Score: 1

    That's a good point, but it's hardly worth arguing that proprietary software is unethical if it is the only viable model. Since I don't think Stallman is arguing that people should do without software, I think we can take it as an implicit assumption that free software can ultimately meet peoples' needs.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  66. call me a technological determinist by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    the internet CHANGES THE ECONOMIC REALITY

    where before something had to be produced and packaged, now a teenager in johannesburg can send 10,000 copies of a movie around the world in zero time and zero cost. this means every teenager is now the power of bertelsmann, time warner, etc circa 1985 x1,000

    in other words, the rules those guys played under in a pre-internet universe simply do not apply anymore. the rules are simply unenforceable

    people are not deciding anything: new technology changes the economic truth of media distribution, and you must adapt to it. because there is no putting the genie back in the bottle

    you keep interpreting what i say as if we have a choice. i am telling you you have no choice. you can't stand in front of a lake and try to sell bottle water

    "The "new reality" is decided by people."

    no, absolutely wrong

    take another disruptive technology: the gun. do people decide that warfare will forever be knights in armor with swords? or do the guys with the gun simply win more battles, no matter what some asshole decrees somewhere about knights and swords? the TECHNOLOGY decides, beyond anyone's control

    this really is the truth. deal with it. there is no interpretation, there is merely acceptance of a new reality, or, if you choose, a rejection of it: you have simply chosen irrelevancy to the new reality

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it