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Best Mobile Computing Options For People With RSI?
gotfork writes "Several years ago I injured my wrists while typing at a poorly set up desk. I am now greatly recovered, and can work at a desktop computer for several hours each day as long as I wear wrist braces. I have avoided using laptops in the past because both TrackPoint-style pointing sticks and touchpads create a lot of strain on my wrists, but I'm ready to give it another shot. Is my best option a stylus-based convertible tablet/laptop (such as the Lenovo X series) or are there any lighter-weight devices that have ergonomic inputs?"
You might already get this a lot, but you should take a good long look at Dasher, a novel form of text input that's suitable either as a short-term or permanent replacement for the keyboard. It can be used with a variety of different input devices, basically anything that points. This includes mice, trackpads, trackballs, styli, nibs, nubs, and even IR eye movement tracking (Dr. Hawking's preferred method).
I'm a keyboard junkie and even I have to admit Dasher is pretty badass. It's like Tetris, only instead of accumulating points you write things.
Any thoughts on an iPad? I know it's overpriced for what you get like most Apple products, but for all of that it's not too bad. Not sure how your wrists would handle the input on one though if you have issues with touchpads. It is different in the aspect of multi-touch and the various ways you could bring contact with the surface. I know Best Buys in this area have them set up to test out if you're not sure how it would do.
I've had good success with an Asus e1000H laptop (the smallest I could reasonably comfortably type on for shortish periods) along with a goldtouch folding keyboard (gtp0055, according to the label on the back) and an Evoluent Vertical Mouse 3. For a long time I struggled to get a decent gel-based wrist rest until I gave that up and found that two (clean) business socks with half a cup of rice in each works even better ... the keyboard has a laptop-style travel and comes with slide-off covers to protect it when in your bag. The mouse is a little awkward as it's an odd shape, but otherwise all this stuff goes into a backpack daily ... I'm using these without problems under NetBSD but presumably it would also be fine under Linux or any other flavour of OS - the keyboard also has decals for Mac OSX although I've not tried it on a Mac to see if it works ...
What are you whining about? I always use a cordless mouse with my laptop. And at times I use a full size separate keyboard too. A keyboard is rather bulky to lug around all of the time, but there is no reason that you can't keep one at home, perhaps even another at the office. A cordless mouse is a must. Buy wisely and you can add both to a laptop and use only one usb port. That basically gives you the same input capability that you already have with a desktop, but the portability and flexibility (and limitations) of a laptop.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If you already suffer from an injury, I really think you want to avoid any additional risks... Ask an ergonomics expert. Most likely they would recommend a lightweight computer (to avoid shoulder injury on top), with some kind of external mouse. Maybe MS arc mouse as an example
I've been on computers for over two decades and I can't ever say that I've had a proper setup. Everything from a hard wooden kitchen chair with a plywood tabletop with foldout metal legs that I screwed on myself to a half-decent computer desk with a cheapo leather chair. So far (knock on wood) I have yet to have any issues.
What does it take to have a setup so bad that you get RSI? A couple of bricks in front of the keyboard as wrist rests?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
An Apple iPad or if you require a keyboard any Apple notebook, they're easily the most comfortable computers around bar none.
People missing limbs learn to use their feet. The severity of your injury is no different. Get a plastic carpet protector and a large laser mouse set to 500 - 1000 dpi.
I don't know if I had RSI or what, but I had pain in my wrists and forearms at the end of the day while I used a thinkpad (both with and without a decent ibm 101 keyboard). I am very sensitive to ergonomics -- I have a really nice chair, a really nice desk, the best lighting I can afford.
I switched to a Mac Book Pro, and I never had any pain with the trackpad, even in the most awkward postures. The Apple 101 keyboard is also great for my ergonomics while I'm at my desk.
Still, I had wrist pain after sitting at my desk using my fancy MS mouse all day. I recently got the external Apple trackpad, and my mouse has been collecting dust ever since. I have zero pain even after a long day or a long week. The stuff is expensive, it takes some getting used to (the built-in trackpad and the external trackpad only work well if you grok their gestures). But it is well worth it for me.
YMMV, etc etc.
There aint no pancake so thin it doesn't have two sides.
exercise. seriously. these will fix you up in about 3 months: http://www.google.com/search?&q=hand+grip
Use eye tracking for the mouse and colemak for typing. Learn to use ctrl+backspace instead of hitting backspace repeatedly when you make an error. Find a keyboard with low key depression force and distance, and software that autocapitalizes intelligently on the fly so you don't have to use shift so much.
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor and this is not advice, but have you tried strengthening exercises?
I have to use a very poorly designed desk for computing (think of like an 70s-80s era penpusher desk - now with computer, keyboard, mouse, dual monitor). This has led to some issues, although, not ever as bad as you have described. Recently a friend lent me a gyroscope toy, thingy. Basically you spin it, it provides some resistance and which will gradually build strength in your arm/hand wrist.
I've found it to be really helpful - now I can type without pain and I can even do pushups again. YMMV.
(cue the oblig wrist action comments:).
Can anyone recommend a good therapist for me.. er.. my schizophrenic network card?
Get a kitchen timer and a laptop and a tablet. Set the timer for 30 minutes and bang away at the desk. When the bell rings, move the laptop to the top of the filing cabinet for 30 minutes. When the bell rings again, take it to the couch. Next time the bell rings, move to the other side of the couch and use the tablet. Then take a meeting and lunch. Start back at the desk again after lunch. Get up now and then. Take a walk. Evenings and weekends, pull some weeds play WII Fit for a half hour, then billiards and table tennis or whatever. Get different motions going on. RSI isn't about excess motion. It's about repetitive motion. Different motions help make it go away.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Definitely what the others said about the desk. Of course you know this well, but for the sake of those reading, ask your employer for a better chair and keyboard; chances are good you can get it, but if not, you might think twice about your employment options. If you still really like your job or feel you have no choice but to stay, then seriously - spend a couple hundred on the chair and keyboard yourself. The money you spend will be small compared to doctor bills and potentially permanently damaged health.
I'll also echo the other comments about exercise. At least try to add some variety to your daily wrist activity; stress balls, playing tennis, whatever, as long as it's not keyboard/mouse/piano type activity. Take a few minutes away from your desk to stretch your wrists - and your neck too! It'll be good for you in other ways as well.
Finally, depending on your dexterity, something that has worked extremely well for me is to go left-handed on the mouse for a while; if I ever feel a hint of motion strain in my right hand, I switch to the left on the mouse. Within a few hours I feel great. In general, I also spend about 2/3rd of my time on a mouse, and about 1/3rd using a trackpad. The change is excellent.
OP - you need to understand that except for a very few people who fully adapt to nonstandard input devices, most of the other input devices you might try will do nothing but slow down your work rate. Any benefits you might find from using those devices are just as likely due to the reduced work rate as they are from the design of the devices themselves.
You may want to consider a lifestyle and work habit change. Keep using "comfy" standard input devices while you are on the road, with the obvious and relatively easy steps of using a full size keyboard and mouse (or trackball or whatever irritates your injuries the least). But then take the additional step of incorporating a significantly increased number of work breaks into your routine. And go to the gym (or pool, since some swimming can build muscles and endurance with little or no shock and as much or as little resistance as you want) to build up overall physical conditioning, which can help with the causes of the injury as well as help the body heal faster.
In short, use whatever input devices feel ok, don't go all weird with the input devices, since all you're going to do is slow down your work efficiency anyhow, slow yourself down with more (and more effective) work breaks, and add more physical conditioning to your daily routine.
You'll be surprised at how much less your wrists/forearms hurt if you build up the back, shoulder, and chest muscles enough that your wrists aren't taking all of the strain when you type and use the mouse.
From my own experience:
1) Low-pressure/frictionless keys/touchscreens can only make so much difference. Just not hitting the thing so damned hard makes a much more significant difference.
2) Don't sleep on your wrists. Seriously, don't put your arm under your pillow while you sleep. This has a deceptively catastrophic impact on the crucial healing period an all-day typist's wrists need during the their hands' sole extended immobility period.
3) Keep your wrists straight while you type. I can't emphasize this enough. Some people say ergonomic keyboards don't help. Some people say they do. Some people say don't rest your wrists on the keyboard. Some people say it hurts not to. The important thing is that you keep your wrists straight so that the tendons have as little friction as possible passing through your carpel tunnels during long typing sessions. If you have really wide shoulders it a split-style ergonomic keyboard might help you to keep your wrists straight. If you are a bit short or a bit tall changing your desk and chair heights can help too.
By the way if you also suffer from neck/back pain your monitor is probably not close enough to head level.
I've got one very damaged wrist and one embedded titanium bar, both victim of several accidents and far too much surgery for body parts to endure without accumulating more damage in the repair process. I can't write with a pencil for more than two minutes due to the tendons being as much scar tissue as anything else.
But my thumbs work fine by themselves. Thus I use trackballs like the Logitech M570. Once learned and used at highest response speed, I can, for instance, play an entire game of solitaire in less than 100 seconds. The rest of the hand rests on the device with very little movement required to trigger the buttons, thus the least effort is required to support them. I tried many different methods before finding this. It's the least tiring, in fact not at all, nor do I end up hurting after. Since my arm rests on the table, I don't even use the braces anymore.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
What does it take to have a setup so bad that you get RSI?
Here's a RSI analogy. Imagine that everyone reading this comment takes a match, lights it, and gently sets it on the floor (so that it's still burning). Some people will burn their house down, while others will watch as their match slowly burns out.
The difference is in what the person's floor is made of. Some people's floors are made of tile, while other floors are a bit more flammable (maybe they're covered with a film of cooking oil).
A predisposition for RSI usually isn't recognized until someone's set their body "on fire" (where the trigger is usually stress, poor workstation ergonomics, overuse, laptop keyboard/mouse, etc). The process to putting out the metaphorical fire is different for everyone. Some RSI sufferers benefit from improved workstations and other ergonomic equipment, others benefit from massage or other forms of hands-on therapy, while still others need anti-inflammatory pills or dietary changes or vitamin B6 or any of a thousand other interventions (many of which I've written about here on Slashdot - search my comment history or send me an email. :).
The "kindling" for my RSI condition was set a year before the symptoms emerged, when I knocked myself out and nearly drowned at the lake. The cramping and pain in my hands, forearms, shoulders, neck and spine started in the months after I got a Thinkpad my first semester at teh college. If I hadn't sustained that head injury the year before, I'm certain that the RSI never would have appeared, or at least would have gone away when I stopped using the Thinkpad.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Pretty much any modern convertible tablet PC running Windows 7 will have excellent out-of-the-box inking to text conversion. Add a few hours of training along with a combo digitizer/multitouch screen and the interface should be fairly smooth.
Obviously you may also need to look for other add-ons, like Dragon Naturally Speaking software to do voice-to-text and look into some of the accessibility features available. I also like using a Logitech Trackman mouse (where the roller ball is under your thumb rather and your hand just rests on it).
Really, when it comes to recommending a convertible tablet PC at this point it will depend on the work you are doing. If you are looking for an add-on for a computer, the only device that is a pen-based tablet that also displays is the Wacom Cintiq drawing tablets (either $1000 or $2000 if you want 12" or 21" displays - and the extra buttons make them bulkier than you'd expect).
I know its not really helpful, but its the best I can do with the information you provided.
Not that Slashdot counts as journalism, but any decent piece would define the acronym before using it. Here, it isn't defined at all. Nice one.
I had a similar problem. It started with neckache and backache when I was sitting for a long time. Then my wrists would hurt when I practiced piano. Then my wrists and shoulders hurt all the time. I ended up seeing a doctor when I lost feeling in my first three digits on each hand. They ended up taking back x-rays; I had a spine that looks more like a "/" than an S. Nerves were getting pinched in my shoulders and my wrists.
So, I went to a chiropractor, and after a couple of months my spine looked normal, and I could actually move my fingers again. With better posture, the tingling/numbness hasn't come back, either. If you haven't already, you might want to go to a doctor or a chiropractor - avoid the ones that try to sell you stuff or that claim a straight spine will cure cancer or whatnot. A lot of regular doctors can do spinal adjustments as well.
I suggest it because I, at least, didn't think that my rapidly decreasing dex modifier had anything to do with my back. But, if you can't do much about your desk or your sitting posture, stand. As long as you aren't hunched over a monitor, it'll be easier on your back, and it'll be easier to keep your wrists raised and your shoulders relaxed.
DATABASE WOW WOW
I use a real man's laptop.
It's a log cut in half with random pc parts shoved inside. The two hellish halves are held together with rail road stakes and a few lengths of chain. (Legend has it they were forged in the depths of hell by Hades himself, but that's just what the guy at Home Depot told me.)
Between the twigs, bugs and pine cones still attached to the raw timber there really isn't much room for comfort, but then again if I had built it for comfort I might as well have made it a functional PC too. You see son, a real man's laptop isn't for a sissy boy or one of those city fellas, but rather it was made to exemplify man's eternal struggle against nature. (It also helps to demonstrate how much of a real man a man is.)
Each real man's laptop (tm) comes with a set of work boots and plaid shirt.
Get one.... now.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
I am a computer programmer and 5 years ago I had RSI. I was on workmans comp for 6 months. In that time I saw several doctors and even a psychologist. I was unable to type due to sever forearm pain. Today I am pretty much pain free and still working 9+ hours a day. Unfortunately, there is no over night cure. Here is what worked for me. Pick up a copy of 'Healing Back Pain: The Mind-Body Connection (Paperback)'. Find yourself a quality massage therapist who is skilled in neuromuscular massage. And see them every couple weeks till you feel better. Cymeth's recommendation about strengthening exercises is a good one.
Hope this helps.
Input devices and GUI's are for pussies, install linux, learn how to use the text terminal and go with programs that can be exclusively controlled by the keyboard.
My solution was to get a laptop dock at home and work. For good on the move typing I go for a laptop with a full sized keyboard and numb-pad (got a HP right now) and a large comfortable Logitech M950 mouse (robust and has a tiny USB dongle you can leave plugged in all the time). I dont use the touch pad as I find it makes me want to bend my wrists inwards to hard at times (always use an Apple cordless touchpad).
What kind of work are you trying to do? Your post asks about pointing devices, but if you're word-processing or coding, reconsider whether you even need a pointing device. Most of my computer work is word-processing or coding, i.e., just typing characters. I used to use mouse-based editors and word-processors, and my RSI problems were all related to my pointing device -- every time I would reach for the mouse, that's when it would hurt. Since you're asking about pointing devices, it sounds like you also have a problem with pointing devices. So if your work consists of typing characters, just stop using a pointing device. Use an editor such as emacs (good) or vi (evil) that can be controlled without a pointing device. (YMMV as far as good or evil. If God damns you to hell for using vi, I am not responsible. I am not a lawyer or a priest, and this is not legal or religious advice.)
Find free books.
Some of the advice being given here isn't very practical. Mine probably isn't either, unless of course you're particularly well off, but it could be a lot more fun.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Just use a wireless mouse.
As someone who has suffered from chronic RSI for years, your best bet is an external input device. You can alternate between a mouse, and some of the other options out there. When I'm on the road, I've found the ozupad to be a decent alternative option. http://www.ozupad.com/ Between a tracpad, a mouse, and an ozupad, you can change things up enough to hopefully avoid the worst of the repetitive motions.
Hi gotfork, I'm an assistive technology specialist and the it's a little hard to give advise without assessing your individual needs but I think a portable ergonomic platform simply does not exist. My advise is always to use the laptop on your lap. This will sacrifice your neck position but your wrists will remain in proper position. Also, read John Sarno's "Healing Back Pain." I've had great success with my clients and it has helped me get 100% back when I was injured.
The lightest option for carrying around in a mobile environment is speech recognition. Your vocal chords travel around with you anyway. If you decide you need a headset, they're lighter than pretty much any mouse, trackpad or trackball. Best of all, your voice puts absolutely zero strain on your carpal tunnel.
Of course, it sucks for things like coding but if risking your carpal tunnels means getting to never use computers, limited access is still infinity times better than no access.
That addresses the lightest possible options for mobile use. Honestly though, if you're suffering enough from your carpal tunnels that you can't use computers/can only use them in restricted form and you really can't get by with your voice... Man up and carry a slightly bigger bag and the weight of a trackball. In the scheme of things, a slightly bulkier bag and the extra few ounces of a trackball or whatever bulky ergonomic solution works best for you is way less than the suffering bad carpal tunnels will give you.
While you're at it: Who really uses laptops in that many places anyway? Buy a dock, a really good ergonomic pointing device and a really good ergonomic keyboard (I've been impressed with the SafeType keyboards though they suck for cursor/numpad/key combination access) for each major location you use it (home office, work). Sure, that'll run you several hundred bucks per location but it costs way less than surgery, time off from work or losing your career. That protects you for 90% of the time most of us ever use our laptops. The other 10%? Do you really need to use it in Starbucks (if you're a MacBook Pro owner, I take it all back, you bought the thing to look "creative" and Starbucks is critical for that)? Do you really need to use your laptop in meetings (buy a dictaphone if your wrists matter that much and transcribe in a healthier environment later)?
The point of all of the above is that with a few small compromises, there's no reason laptop use needs to be any worse than desktop use. And those small compromises? They're a lot smaller than the pain of carpal tunnels, lost income and surgery.
trollface.png "Several years ago" Just because he was ignorant once doesn't mean he would be again.
Yikes, my sympathy. but really can you not strengthen your wrists? I propose you pick up some drum sticks and a practice pad. google the rudiments.
Get up!
Seriously, I used to have RSI issues until I became a Mac laptop user. Two reasons why:
First off, get and install workrave. It's a GPL program that works on MS windows and Linux. It will time and prompt for micro- and macro- breaks, which are key to recovering from RSI, and preventing RSI from developing/degrading. Micro- and macro-breaks are important for everyone.
Second, always use an external pointing device. It could be a mouse, trackball, or wacom tablet. When you work, set them up on the desk at the proper height so your forearms are flat and level to the floor, and supported by and armrest.
Disclaimer: I am not a trained ergonomist. I am sharing with you the general advice that professional ergonomists have given me, and that has helped me significantly.
"I did it. I'm glad I did it. If I had it to do over again, I'd do it over again."
A Peter Lorre character
I can't touch a mouse without pain. I've found a touchpad causes the least strain for me. I don't use the buttons, I tap the surface to click. Almost no strain doing that. I can use it all day. I have a synaptics one on a HP Pavilion laptop. I also have a small bamboo stylus which I can use for a couple hours, but if I use it all day it bothers me. Get an ergonomic keyboard like the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard for typing. Spend the money on a good chair, like an Aeron. If you can touch type, any typing assistance software is likely a waste of time. Speech recognition is only good if you can talk all day. To see if it will work for you, read a book outloud, see how long you last.
I have heard a lot of good about Apple's Magic Trackpad. It should have decent support for it in ubuntu maverick 10.10 too... (http://www.apple.com/magictrackpad/)
You could try a head controlled mouse like the SmartNav one from NaturalPoint (www.naturalpoint.com), some have mentioned that it can also be used successfully with the open source dasher software. Here is a previous comment about gaming and rsi with it :
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=140216&cid=11741131
iPad.
Years ago I developed RSI in my right hand, wrist and shoulder. I realized that RSI is really a muscle cramp, so I learned to always immediately relax my muscles at the first sign of pain. I moved my mouse to my left hand and haven't been troubled by RSI ever since. I'm fine with the mouse on the right when using someone else's computer but I still keep my own mouse on the left.
My advice: concentrate on immediately relaxing your muscles at the first sign of pain.
This is not the sig you're looking for.
If my experience is any indication(YMMV), avoid stylus-based like the plague. It doesn't sound like mine is as bad as yours (I can go 8-10 hours at the keyboard before the pain gets unbearable) but any kind of touch interface (my old Fujitsu Tablet, NDS, and Android phone) has my fingers numb inside of an hour.
Apparently I've taken a more radical approach than anyone else. I have stopped sitting upright at a desk to type on a computer. Nearly all of my time using my laptop is done in a fully-reclined chair. I am nearly supine as I type this. The built-in head & neck rest on the back of the chair fully supports my shoulders, neck & head. My upper arms, elbows & forearms arm supported by the backrest & padded arm rest. The laptop itself is supported by a cheap plastic laptray. The laptray has pockets on either side that serve as legs. The laptop is separated from my lap by an air space of about 2". The tray pockets hold pens, small pads, TV remotes, occasionally a can of Dew or a bottle of beer (if either tips, the liquid goes into the tray pocket & nowhere near the laptop.)
If I gaze straight ahead from this relaxed position, my line of sight is about 2" above the top of the screen. I wear bifocals. The screen is about 30" away from my eyes. I had my ophthalmologist adjust the prescription for my lower lenses to allow me to read materials from 30", not from 20" as is typically prescribed for reading glasses. The bifocals are the lined type, so the entire plane of the laptop's screen is viewed through the same lens prescription. I once tried using lineless bifocals & found with them I could only see a small fraction of the screen clearly. I had to continually move my head to focus clearly on the screen. The projected line between the upper & lower eyeglass lenses lines up very closely with the top of the laptop's screen. So I can see distant objects past the screen clearly without moving my head.
When I use a desktop scanner, I have to sit or stand bent over at the desk as most anyone would do. My land line phone is on the floor below the right arm rest.
I am retired, so I have to justify my arrangement to no boss who might perhaps believe I am too comfortable to be really working. If I stay up too late at my laptop, I tend to fall asleep in my computer position, it is that comfortable.
A couple of my hobbies are genealogy & local history. I travel around the US to do this & sometimes find I need to work my laptop for several hours at a time to catch up on email and type up my discoveries while they are still fresh in memory. I bought a folding recliner chair, similar to what is sold for use on patios, where a mesh fabric supports the body. I use a small pillow to provide more support for my head & neck, but otherwise it's very similar to my home recliner. This works almost as well as my home recliner.
I think the foundation of RSI for computer users is attempting to sit upright and pound on a keyboard, with minimal support for the arms & wrists. It's an unnatural and pain-provoking position, dictated by the all-too-human thinking of "We've always done it this way."
I worked in a job where this injury/illness was common and attacked most of the workforce. Modern medical science has people believing that they have the only answer to the world's ills, but they have no cures for carpal tunnel, only treatments which are very profitable for them. The answer is large doses of B vitamins, a mega-dose daily of B6 as well as a general B supplement and some vitamin C. I also took tumeric & ginger supplements. It isn't something that will change overnight, but gradually you get better and quit waking up with hands that you can't feel, then after a month or so you notice that the pain has gone away and it will stay away if you keep your body's supply of B vitamins up.
I developed cramps and aches in my right hand after having use small travel mice for too long. Not only was the claw-like grip bad for my hand, but the force required to push the buttons on these particular mice was too high.
I then got a WowPen Joy, slanted mouse, but I do not recommend it.
The force required to push the buttons was still too high, so it was painful to use. Eventually, I opened it up, desoldered the hard switches and soldered in softer switches, and now I have no problems using the mouse.
I like the grip on the Evoluent VerticalMouse better, but it wants to "correct" my up/down and left/right mouse movements to be straight lines ... and this can be extremely annoying, or not noticeable, depending on your habits.
Posture and mouse position is also important. I have started to use keyboards without any numeric pad to the right of the cursor keys. This has allowed me to place the mouse in a more natural position, leading to less fatigue in my right shoulder.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
I'm sorry you'll probably never read this as I am AC however I have experience identical to yours.
For the past 3 months I have been using a tablet PC and increasingly use the stylus for all mousing. I can switch from wireless mouse to stylus once my R.S.I. kicks in an I find the pain and hand stress instantly start to receded.
Earlier in the year I purchased a Lenovo X60 Tablet on ebay on the cheap. It runs XP like a dog but Ubuntu like a dream. I love the form factor but the keyboard layout sucks. Delete key and Ctrl key locations are infuriating. But almost always I use it with a nice little Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard that's very portable. You pretty much want to use a tablet pc in convertible mode anyway unless you are just checking email in an airport lounge or something.
I got back pain as a consolation prize until I purchased one of the Lenovo tablet pc laptop risers which gets the screen closer to your face.
So the answer to you question is yes. I would love the money to get a x201 Tablet or whatever comes out next. Sounds like you know where you are going.
In most of my desktop setups I use a wireless mouse on a raised platform above the keyboard so that my mouse hand bends down and not up. Also I use a standing workstation at home on my dual monitor setup.
Over the years, provided I don't stupidly try and help someone on the computer by bending over them and usign their mouse, my RSI recedes as my strategies improve. But it is always ready waiting in case I am bad.
It comes and goes for me, particularly bad when I'm not using my split keyboard for any long period of time. My wrists would feel tingly which became especially noticeable at night. I even bought an Evoluent vertical mouse and that made little to no difference.
People may frown at people like us on this forum and indeed I've known people with terrible setups to have no problems whatsoever, but some of us are just more prone to it than others. I type a lot at work and as a fast touch typist I generally type far more than my colleagues.
I got myself a Powerball and within just 2 days I noticed a big difference! I couldn't believe how effective it is. All it takes is a few minutes each day at 5000-7000 rpm, a few times a week to maintain the strength and now I never notice my wrists tingling even after a long day at work.
http://www.powerballs.com/
When I got it a decade ago, I had to find all sorts of awkward ways to type for a month or so, and take lots of breaks. Sleeping was almost impossible because there was NO comfortable position - but I never used braces. After a month or two, the inflammation subsided - the body WILL adapt if you push it to, and LET it.
Now? 20-hour keyboard sessions don't cause even a twinge.
The best treatment for RSI is no treatment.
I actually keep an external track ball for my laptop with me. It has the added benefit of not needing alot of space to move the mouse in, and it'll work on those expanded-steel type outdoor tables and everything.
Oh.. plus if you're using a mouse at home or your desk, you avoid the R part of RSI..
Honestly, and I'm wide-shouldered and big-handed, every laptop I've operated has way to small of a keyboard, and I found I could quickly get pains in my wrists from my natural inclination to have them severally bend while operating a laptop. As such, I made a lifestyle choice to make sure I take small periodic breaks, utilize a trackball about half my day (at work), and a mouse the other half (at home), and try to avoid as much 'propping the laptop up in a cramped closet and trying to type' as possible [part of my job on occasion]
Frankly if I was the OP, and this was an elective 'getting back into mobile computing' , I'd reconsider. If it's for work, and you have an employeer, most decent sized companies have a ergonomics guy (so ask them).
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
Every desktop computer and laptop issued by Lockheed Martin has this software called ErgoSuite on it. It tells the user when to take a break using the keyboard and mouse as well as has exercises designed to help with RSI injuries.(http://www.smartergo.com) It also has a way to report rsi injuries to Lockheed Martin staff. If you notice pretty much every keyboard has a sticker now on the face or on the back warning of RSI injuries coming from the use of keyboards. I have seen it on Logitech and Micrososft and HP/Compaq keyboards.
Anyone else have this at work?
I use workrave. This is free software that has you stop for small brakes. It has made my pain go away. I never use a regular mouse but use my laptop often. Split keyboard & vertical mouse when at the desk. Good luck. ...Gary
Really hard to give a good answer as it's so different for everyone. I have no issues at all with keyboards and with the IBM pointing stick. However, I run into problems when I use a conventional mouse, trackpad, or a trackball. You're just going to have to try all different devices until you figure out what works best for your body.
I make sure I carry round a Logitech Trackman Wheel for using with my laptop. As someone who has had RSI in the past its just something I have in my laptop carry bag. I went for the corded in the end rather than wireless (only one extra thing to carry round and no batteries to worry about).
Professor Karmadillo Songs of Science
When I used a laptop, I had a small Wacom Graphire that I always carried with it. I still use a large Wacom instead of a mouse at my desktop because the pen input feels so good. Certain types of mouse and desk combos can make my hand hurt within minutes. You wouldn't really be able to use the laptop actually on your lap, but the tablet is great as long as you can find a work surface.
Typed on a phone, sorry.
While there is a lot of truth and good pointers in the other comments, I have to say I mainly cured myself by... stopping caring about my RSI. I bought the book "It's not carpal tunnel syndrome" ( Amazon: http://alturl.com/4dkgf ), which mainly tells you to "let it go". Stressing less about your RSI will do wonders. Add 30 minutes of walking each day (park you car 1 Miles from work), eat less shit (no more bad fats!!). I Also bought a rollball mice, and work in a two mice setup. I alternate between the two during the day (I was NOT ambidex, but within 2 week i gained normal clicking speed in my left arm). The trick with the left handed mouse, is to NOT change your button configuration (right click stays right click, and left click, stays left click. Trust me on this one, your brain will make the transition from left to right seemlessly this way. Listen to your body, if it's tingle / feel ankward, STOP !! Take a break and come back to it 10 minutes later. I went to believing I could never work at a computer again to doing 7 hours a day again. Good luck!
Don't do it. Pain is your bodies way of telling you to stop doing something.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I started having problems with my right hand from using a mouse years ago. I've learned to use the mouse with both hands and will swap it over when necessary. It took a while to get used to, but now my left hand is almost as good as my right.
This obviously doesn't help if keyboard usage is as bad for you.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
after a 3 year battle to carpal tunnel/RSI/tendinitis i'm finally getting it under control. after taking care of the carpal tunnel with surgery i still had the RSI/tendinitis. pills did nothing to help. touch-pads killed me. PT cost a fortune. i attribute it to a complete change in lifestyle. not working 7 days a week. no more 16 hour programming marathons. getting away from the computer during lunch. i cut out foods which encouraged inflammation, and increased intake of foods which help reduce inflammation. setting my computer screen to lock me out every 1/2 hour for 3 minutes so i stand up. i ended up losing weight in the process :) made sure every work area is ergonomically correct. no more laptops for me. heat, stretching exercises & ice daily. after the severe inflammation went away, i am now finally working my way up to strengthening exercises.
i tried a dozen input devices and finally settled on the mouse which has kept me employed and the Microsoft ergonomic 4000 keyboard.
maybe this will help someone or just give them hope
Had a pretty crippling episode of RSIs in both hands about 12 years ago, but have mostly kept it in check since then.
For pointing devices, I just bring a fullsize mouse with me when I work mobile. I'd suggest Razer Diamondbacks, MS Sidewinders, or even Apple's Mighty Mouse, but those are just what work for my hands comfortably. If you have smaller hands, try a Logitech VX Nano, or if mice in general give you problems and your thumbs are good try a Logitech Trackman Wheel. Crank the sensitivity up so you can work with minimal movements.
For keyboards, I don't have a really good suggestion for mobile. I used a Kinesis split keyboard for a few years while recovering from my initial RSIs and think it helped, but it collects dust now and is kinda bulky to carry around. I also tried a Twiddler (single-handed chording keyboard) which was about the only thing workable when my left hand was completely out, but it sounds like your hands are in better shape than that at least and it didn't work well for me as a long term keyboard replacement. Mainly focus on reducing repetitive tasks by scripting/macros.
IMHO your chair and desk are more likely to cause problems when you're mobile than the devices themselves - pay a lot of attention to how you set up your mobile environment. Slapping a laptop down at a coffee shop on a too-short table and sitting in a "we want the customer to leave in 20 minutes or less" chair isn't going to be good for you. Generally the "temp desks" and leftover office chairs in companies have been just as bad. Empty conference rooms, however, often have better chairs and desks.
Especially watch your wrists and elbows in those cases - keep your wrists from being cramped or at unnatural angles and keep your elbows off hard surfaces (esp. corners). When my RSIs were really bad, I found that rollerblading wrist guards helped tons - they were better padded and kept my hands in better positions than the off-the-shelf medical braces and even looked slightly less gimpy :) Also found ErgoRest arm rests to be very helpful, but they're also bulky to travel with and only work on certain styles of desks.
I used to suffer from a very acute case of RSI, requiring wearing a wrist brace and seeing a physiotherapist twice a week for more than a year. As a programmer, I seriously considered finding a new career but thankfully, I have recovered. Of course, recovery is relative here and as you know, you never come back to your college days when you could abuse your writs with all nighters after all nighters, you are always as risk. In my case, I can type without wrist braces for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, and feel no pain. I do that on a full size keyboard at a desk; I can type with a laptop on my lap but only for a few hours before I am reminded that this is wrong.
One thing that really helped me was to get rid of the mouse. My main setup is a Unicomp EnduraPro keyboard with a touch-stick. A touch-stick is not as fast and as accurate as a mouse but the touch-stick is right there on the home row and it's easy to use with either hand to you don't put all the strain on the same hand all the time. I tried the Lenovo UltraNav keyboard but I don't like its cramped layout and I fell that the keys are not tactile enough. My laptop is a Lenovo X-Series with a touch-stick only. The key to be able to work efficiently with the touch-stick is to take the time to fine tune the sensitivity and to make sure that you can scroll with it in all your application. See the ThinkWiki website to learn how to do that under GNU/Linux.
But I have to be honest, finding a new keyboard is not what allowed me to move away from the wrist brace. It was only a minor part in a greater program to get my wrists back into shape. Your first goal should be to strengthen your wrists. Your physiotherapist probably recommended you some exercises and you have to do then. After a long and painful recovery doing wrist curls with barbels, I started doing rock climbing and this is probably the most effective way that I have to stay away from the wrist brace. If you go that route, be careful because the potential for injuries is very real if you try to do all the fun moves. Dynos and crimpers are not for you until you move away from the wrist braces but rock climbing will still be much more entertaining than wrist curls so you're more likely to keep a regular training schedule all year long, even when you don't feel the pain.
If your are not seeing a health professional, get off Slashdot and book an appointment with one immediately. Slashdot will recommend gadgets is this is not what you need. Good luck with your quest. I trust that you too can enjoy computing once again.
Maybe because he was injured the first time due to his "ignorance" it would be good for him to solicit advice THIS time...preferably from such experts like yourself. Thanks for the constructive advice.
Apple keyboards on laptops are the exact same (ok, almost) replica of their full-size keyboards. That is not to say it would help your RSI, just to say, that when using a full-size key, it is not needed to switch.
I find the LARGE pointing surface pretty ergonomic on the laptop, it is possible to thumb-operate if you are willing to learn it.
My take on this issu is the following : I have been waiting for a good laptop-like keyboard for the desktop as I find them easier to type on. Then came the apple aluminum keyboard, then the wireless one.
I would really like to see a split keyboard of the same style, but that does not really exist (yet), so what I figured, is that when I will have too much time (never??) I would get 2 wireless ones, and interconnect them (or just cover the middle part, ending up with 2 halves of the wireless ones ....
To help your problem really: I use now a logitech trackball and an apple keyboard. When seat height and other ergonomics are set correctly I have no pain/discomfort even after 10+ hour working/hacking/tinkering/surfing sessions.
Then again, this post is biased towards apple, you can get a TON of split windows keys, and if you have a serious wrist injury history, you should just carry around a MS split keyboard ... they are pretty good quality and are really ergonomic (strange words from an apple lover eh?)
One cheap lo-tech tip: see to that your arms are warm. No kidding. I live in a cold country, and realized that my RSI started to flare up during summer (!). Turned out that was when I dropped the warm sweaters in favor of t-shirts. Long-sleeved shirts/t-shirts was the solution for me, that put me below the threshold. (I also went for left-hand operation of the mouse and an ergonomic keyboard) Good luck!
2) Don't sleep on your wrists. Seriously, don't put your arm under your pillow while you sleep. This has a deceptively catastrophic impact on the crucial healing period an all-day typist's wrists need during the their hands' sole extended immobility period.
I don't sleep with my arm under the pillow, but sleeping on my side, I think I might inadvertently roll over/lean on my arm that way. Another thing to watch out for.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
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I have mastered a Web site with plans for low-stress desks since 1995:
Woodware Designs
http://woodwaredesigns.com/woodware.html
We have more than 50 desk designs available and regularly work up new designs. I would be happy to work through your desk problems with you as an Open Design exercise.
The key is to always use your computer with your body in a neutral position. We have an exercise on the first page called "Air Typing" to help you work out what that means for you.
Let me hear from you.
Tom Riley TomRiley@woodwaredesigns.com http://woodwaredesigns.com/woodware.html