Ray Ozzie Quit... What Took Him So Long?

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Ray Ozzie Quit... What Took Him So Long?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on Tuesday October 19, 2010 @05:11AM from the paychecks-aren't-bad dept.

GMGruman writes "The mainstream press acts surprised that Microsoft's chief software architect is resigning, but InfoWorld's Woody Leonhard explains through a review of Ozzie's efforts at Microsoft how the Redmond giant has consistently ignored and squandered the design savvy that Ozzie has tried to bring to the table. If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences, this analysis will solve that mystery. And you too will wonder how Ozzie could have lasted so long at a company that doesn't believe in design."

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Wow.... by rotide · 2010-10-19 05:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences, this analysis will solve that mystery.
No bias here..
1. Re:Wow.... by Dan667 · 2010-10-19 05:15 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  please don't throw a chair steve.
2. Re:Wow.... by recoiledsnake · 2010-10-19 05:19 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Seriously, Windows 7 runs on old Pentium 4's nicely and Office 2007 and 2010 are not really bloated compared to their functionality. But iTunes on the other hand....
  
  --
  This space for rent.
3. Re:Wow.... by Moryath · 2010-10-19 05:27 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Yeah. the testing I've done on it shows that Win7 runs nicely on decently old hardware - actually runs better than Vista on the same hardware - provided you turn off the Aero interface. Do you lose visual perks? Sure. But it runs just fine.
  I get the feeling the poster who submitted this just happened to be a brainwashed Apple fanboi. And I echo your complaints about the shitty quality of iTunes, which slows any system it gets on to a crawl.
4. Re:Wow.... by 0xdeadbeef · 2010-10-19 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  bloated and underwhelming
  Is he talking about iTunes?
5. Re:Wow.... by ArcherB · 2010-10-19 05:30 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences, this analysis will solve that mystery.
  No bias here..
  I thought that mystery was solved in this video.
  
  --
  There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
6. Re:Wow.... by Faatal · 2010-10-19 05:31 · Score: 1
  
  No bias here..
  Yeah, I didn't detect any either.
7. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:32 · Score: 0
  
  You do realize you can add any track to your Zune DB just as easily as you can with iTunes right? There is nothing forcing you to buy from MS (besides the HW if you want a Zune, I personally love my 30gb)
8. Re:Wow.... by bhcompy · 2010-10-19 05:35 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  and Office 2007 and 2010 are not really bloated compared to their functionality
  One word: Ribbons.
9. Re:Wow.... by Missing.Matter · 2010-10-19 05:35 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  If ever a story needed to be modded flame bait. The summary just begs for reactionary keyboard banging.
10. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:37 · Score: 0
  
  Apple is always a wonderful experience? I'm sure you aren't talking about that convoluted piece of crap kludge that is iTunes. Nothing in there is really intuitive or where you expect it to be, and the syncing never seems work quite right. I always cringe when my wife or step son tries to update their iPod because they will inevitably come bug me to fix it. And Apple's Airport setup tools aren't much better.
11. Re:Wow.... by Ziekheid · 2010-10-19 05:38 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not a fanboy by far but that sentence made me twitch a little..
12. Re:Wow.... by zombieChan51 · 2010-10-19 05:39 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  MS products are not bloated hunks of shit that are force on you at work by ill-informed IT managers
  
  Not quite the case, the developers choose the tools at my place of work. We're using Microsoft products.
13. Re:Wow.... by numbski · 2010-10-19 05:42 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Does it matter when it's true?
  
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  Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
14. Re:Wow.... by numbski · 2010-10-19 05:45 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No - he's talking about UI consistency and overall layout, not performance on older hardware. Whether you meant to do it or not, you've set up a straw man here.
  Granted, ESPECIALLY with iTunes, and ESPECIALLY with the latest version, Apple seriously violates it's own UI guidelines. As of right now, everything always looks greyed out, and the minimize/maximize/close buttons aren't located where they're supposed to be, and they're vertically oriented instead of horizontally.
  Apple's no saint, but the original poster's point still stands. Overall, Apple still wins on this.
  
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  Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
15. Re:Wow.... by TemporalBeing · 2010-10-19 05:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Yeah. the testing I've done on it shows that Win7 runs nicely on decently old hardware - actually runs better than Vista on the same hardware - provided you turn off the Aero interface. Do you lose visual perks? Sure. But it runs just fine.
  All due to a super huge effort to (i) reduce dependencies, and (ii) eliminate circular dependencies between kernel and user space. The effort started with Vista, and Win7 is a lot farther along. Win8 (whatever it will be) should do better yet. Though I believe that they already got to the point where dependencies only go one way with Win7 - that is, kernel space does not depend on anything in user space as of Win7. (If not Win7, certainly Win8 should be that way.)
  
  --
  Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
16. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:48 · Score: 0
  
  " If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences, this analysis will solve that mystery."
  LOL!!!
  No, No, I can honestly say I have never, ever wondered that. I have wondered how Apple, who has become more Big Brother than IBM still manages to attract so many zealots into its cult of Apple. We support both and I can tell you that our Apple labs have far more quirks, work-a-rounds and bloat than our Microsoft labs do. On top of that Apple only has to develop its OS for an extremely limited hardware catalog. Whereas, Microsoft makes it's products run across hundreds of different vendors hardware. I am by no means a Microsoft Zealot, I prefer Linux but Apple's exclusionary model doesn't appeal to me in the least. For those who don't know, Apple is a Monopoly - on their iOS devices they are almost a vertically integrated Monopoly.
  However, I have wondered why so many in the press are unduly biased towards Apple. Perhaps, they send out the most freebies or review units to the media.
17. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:49 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Um, the bloat he is talking about is not performance bloat, but design bloat. Apple products generally win on look and feel by a long shot. Without that design advantage, apple would not bring anything to the table. They focus on design to a fault, letting features and technical prowess slide as long as it looks good. Microsoft products look designed by comittee, with some good ideas, but a general lack of cohesiveness. Features are all over the place, and the steps to perform each kind of task are inconsistent. Their choice of what features to showcase and which to hide away is often baffling to me.
  But if you disagree with Apple's design sense, it can be far more off-putting than the more mish-mash style of Microsoft, because the things you dislike about it permeate the entire product. In certain segments far more people agree with apple's design sense than with the competition, these are the segments where Apple wins. Generally these segments are artistic leaning - which makes sense. Ipod which caters to musical demographic, and design/art school for the OS. Other segments, such as office products, want something more utilitarian than strongly designed.
  If microsoft wants to compete with apple in those segments, it needs to add some design, and it's a shame Ozzie has left. However, there are segments where Microsoft already dominates, which don't have a strong need for it. They may instead choose to focus on these areas where they are strong rather than try and compete in areas where they are weak.
18. Re:Wow.... by weicco · 2010-10-19 05:49 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The sentence starts with conditional "if" and it looks like a question but has no actual question mark so I'm not sure if that is a question that one should answer or a statement of opinion. But either way it is highly biased sentence. If it's a question then it's a leading one and would be objected if asked in court of law. If it's a statement of opinion then it's biased by definition.
  And no, I have never wondered that exact thing ;)
  
  --
  You don't know what you don't know.
19. Re:Wow.... by Cro+Magnon · 2010-10-19 05:52 · Score: 1
  
  Win7 runs nicely on decently old hardware - actually runs better than Vista on the same hardware
  
  True, but there's not much that DOESN'T run better than Vista on the same hardware.
  
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  Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
20. Re:Wow.... by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2010-10-19 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  Nope. Quicktime.
21. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:57 · Score: 0
  
  On my six-core computer iTunes was the first program to bring it to a crawl and one of the few that can manage to do it on a daily basis.
22. Re:Wow.... by ThatsNotPudding · 2010-10-19 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  Yup. GMGruman = John Gruber, perhaps?
23. Re:Wow.... by vux984 · 2010-10-19 06:00 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Actually, it often runs SLOWER if you turn off the aero interface. If your GPU can do your desktop rendering, let it. You did say 'older' hardware, and that can mean just about anything, but a lot of what I consider 'older hardware' is better with Aero on.
  But I agree with the sentiments that the submission is an apple fanboi. I'm writing this on a macbook pro but itunes is anything but archtypical good design. Its a music library manager, and ipod/iphone sync tool ... already the two should be separate. Lets tack on a web browser type thing (iTMs) except its not really the web that it browses, its apples proprietary alternative. What a great idea! How can we make this less appealing? How about a social network!! Hello pointless bloat that makes office look lean and task-focused.
  As if that's not enough, lets name it Ping! It rhymes with Bing! from Microsoft and also happens to be named the same as a standard network utility.
  Oh, and one more thing, lets violate the user interface standard by making the window control widgets smaller than normal and arrange them vertically instead of horizontally too. Steve Job's would blow a gasket if someone else dared to violate his beloved UI standard.
  If Microsoft wrote iTunes people would point at it as a symbol of everything that is wrong with Microsoft.
24. Re:Wow.... by shadowrat · 2010-10-19 06:02 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I would grant that apple's UIs are more consistent and less bloated. Wonderful experience is a strange choice of words that reeks of bias. I expect microsoft products to put everything and the kitchen sink into the UI. I expect apple to carefully place only the items they think are most important in the UI. I think the wonderfulness of the experience is tied closely to how often you agree with apple's choice of included functionality.
25. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:03 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  I agree; the ribbon was a very solid design choice. Kudos to Microsoft on that. What was your point again?
26. Re:Wow.... by recoiledsnake · 2010-10-19 06:04 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  No - he's talking about UI consistency and overall layout, not performance on older hardware. Whether you meant to do it or not, you've set up a straw man here.
  Err, the quote was that Windows and Office were bloated(which directly translates to bad performance on older hardware), not about UI consistency of layout. You're the one setting up a straw man here.
  
  --
  This space for rent.
27. Re:Wow.... by metamatic · 2010-10-19 06:06 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Office 2007 and 2010 are not really bloated compared to their functionality. But iTunes on the other hand....
  iTunes isn't bloated for its functionality either, it's just that not many people want a ringtone editing, movie playing, music playing, address book notepad and to-do list syncing, media serving, radio streaming, podcast managing, application installing, e-book installing online store for movies, music, applications, books and ringtones, with a social network glued on top, all in one application.
  
  --
  GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
28. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:12 · Score: 0
  
  How can you say there's any bias? It's not like he used "Magical" to describe apple products.
29. Re:Wow.... by TheRaven64 · 2010-10-19 06:13 · Score: 1
  
  As I have said before, there is a reason my user CSS file appends all links to InfoWeek with a red [TROLL WARNING].
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
30. Re:Wow.... by bonch · 2010-10-19 06:21 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  You're actually arguing that Windows and Office aren't bloated and underwhelming and that Apple's interfaces aren't vastly superior? Have you never compared a Windows smartphone to an iPhone?
31. Re:Wow.... by Altus · 2010-10-19 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  Thank you for this perfect example of an technical person who does not understand what design means.
  Design does not mean that it runs on old hardware or that it has this obscure feature or that. Design is about human interaction and the way the user and the software interface. It has nothing at all to do with what OS or applications run on what hardware.
  
  --
  "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
32. Re:Wow.... by VGPowerlord · 2010-10-19 06:32 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Err, the quote was that Windows and Office were bloated(which directly translates to bad performance on older hardware), not about UI consistency of layout. You're the one setting up a straw man here.
  No, setting up a strawman is taking what someone said and misrepresenting it.
  For instance, you just did it by referring to "bloated" and ignoring the "and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences" part that followed it that would most certainly refer to the UI as well.
  
  --
  GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
33. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:37 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sure he's talking about the excess needless borders on every window and the bloated empty space around ribbon buttons.
34. Re:Wow.... by VGPowerlord · 2010-10-19 06:39 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If Microsoft wrote iTunes people would point at it as a symbol of everything that is wrong with Microsoft.
  If Microsoft wrote iTunes, corporations would point at it and get the European Union to pursue anti-trust action against Microsoft by "forcing" everyone to use iTMS.
  
  --
  GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
35. Re:Wow.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-19 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  As of right now, everything always looks greyed out, and the minimize/maximize/close buttons aren't located where they're supposed to be, and they're vertically oriented instead of horizontally.
  Huh? You mean on OSX or Windows?
  On my iTunes right here on my desktop (10.0.1.22 -- the latest version available on Vista 64), the minimize/maximize/close buttons are in the exact same place they are on my Mozilla, Notepad, and Task Manager -- they're also not vertically aligned.
  I do see what you mean about things looking greyed out though. Though, compared to the ugly thing I've seen the last few times I've inadvertently opened Windows Media Player, I'll stick with iTunes. As always, Your Mileage May Vary.
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
36. Re:Wow.... by Blakey+Rat · 2010-10-19 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  The guy who created Lotus Notes was supposed to help Windows and Office become slimmer? For reals?
  Who wrote this article? What a load of garbage. Microsoft should be thankful he didn't crapify any of their products, not lamenting losing his advice.
  
  --
  Comment of the year
37. Re:Wow.... by slew · 2010-10-19 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  ...kernel space does not depend on anything in user space as of Win7. (If not Win7, certainly Win8 should be that way.)
  Wow, this all (eventually) brought to you by the company that once put out a document with the phrase "Appy time is Happy Time" (or something like that) and later updated that OS based on lightweight microkernel messaging (LPC)... Times have sure changed... ;^)
38. Re:Wow.... by antdude · 2010-10-19 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  But Windows XP SP3 would be faster and better. Even 2000 SP4 would be fine, but very old and unsupported. :(
  
  --
  Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
39. Re:Wow.... by bkaul01 · 2010-10-19 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  I don't quite follow how a redesigned menu/toolbar system that is intended to reduce the clutter of unused, everpresent toolbar button "features" is evidence of nonfunctional bloat? I'm not saying you have to like the new interface, but how does it argue against the statement you're replying to?
40. Re:Wow.... by hairyfeet · 2010-10-19 07:12 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah no shit. I was the first in line ready to rip Windows 7 a new one because I fricking HATED Vista, I hated it so damned bad I gave my disc away and last I heard it was still being passed around like a bad fruitcake. But then I got 7 and it was just...damn. How in the hell did they go from Vista, which frankly was sluggish on a dual core with 2Gb of RAM, to an OS that ran great on a 2.4Ghz P4 with the same? And why in hell didn't they hire THAT team to do Vista? Oh and BTW you do NOT have to turn off Aero if you don't want to, just slap in a cheap AGP card and it purrs like a kitten. I have a customer with a nice Cedar Mill P4 with 4Gb of RAM that wanted the Aero experience so I just added a cheap AMD HD4650 AGP and the thing frankly runs Aero smooth as butter. And as a nice bonus the HD4650 will hardware accelerate just about any video format with Media Player Classic Home Cinema, which means his widescreen videos are really nice to enjoy.
  So I have to agree with the fanboi bullshit, which frankly I never understood. It's a tool folks NOT a ball club, there is no needs for fans here. If I am building a web server or reusing older hardware for a single purpose, like the late model P3s I turned into simple secretary boxes for the local church? I use Linux. For the Joe Average consumer stuff I use Windows. If I wanted an ultra thin laptop I'd probably get an Apple (although knowing me I'd just get a Netbook and go Hackintosh) so really what's the point? If this was Vista I'd have been right there with him as when a customer says they have Vista the FIRST words out of my mouth are "I'm sorry" which apprently from their reaction is the thing everyone tells them, but Windows 7 is damned good. I have been running it since Beta 2 without a single fuckup, not one. It is solid as a rock, has a damned nice UI, easy to network, it is just a joy to deal with. While I'm sure Apple is nice their crazy prices put them out of reach of a good 80% of the market, which is of course by design. Kinda hard to be all hip and exclusive if Joe Average has a MBP.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
41. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  I much prefer the basic menu system rather than the overlarge buttons that take up more screen than they should while hiding functionality under different ribbon menus because there are less options per ribbon due to their overlarge size.
  
  Ultimately, why is there not an option for classic mode? Basic windows IDE functionality includes the menu system that is present in everything but the newest MS applications(Office, Explorer, WMP, etc). Kind of sad really, MS going away from one of the simple and powerful features that built their empire in order to cater to the big shiny icon crowd
42. Re:Wow.... by eht · 2010-10-19 07:23 · Score: 1
  
  http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/qtime.htm
  Apple consistent? less bloated?
  The current version of Quicktime is no better than the version from 1999, 11 years ago. I guess it is consistently bad...
43. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 07:36 · Score: 0
  
  Does it matter when it's true?
  Absolutely not.
  
  And if it WERE true, that would be a point.
  
  Apple's software sucks differently from Microsoft's. It's certainly not better.
44. Re:Wow.... by treeves · 2010-10-19 07:45 · Score: 1
  
  Where's the mod points when I need them?!
  Yes.
  
  --
  ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
45. Re:Wow.... by blair1q · 2010-10-19 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  No sense, either.
  While I agree Microsoft programs suffer from bloat, I've rarely come across an Apple program that I considered more than a toy or demo version of what it should be.
  They both miss. You'd think one of them would figure out to take the high ground in the middle; and it's a result of their marketing and design philosophies: Microsoft doesn't want to leave anyone out, even if they encumber everyone, and Apple doesn't want to encumber anyone, even if they leave many out.
46. Re:Wow.... by newdsfornerds · 2010-10-19 07:53 · Score: 1
  
  What's wrong with bias if it's based on a long, sad history of screwing the consumer with monopolistic practices? If I'm a Liberal, I'll read a newspaper with a liberal slant. If I'm a Republican I'll watch Fox News. It's silly for anyone to pretend to be unbiased. MSFT was convicted of attempting to create a monopoly. Remember? Of course you don't.
  
  --
  Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
47. Re:Wow.... by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2010-10-19 07:58 · Score: 1
  
  And I echo your complaints about the shitty quality of iTunes, which slows any system it gets on to a crawl.
  One day, the developers of iTunes will catch on to this fabulous new concept -- it's called "multi-threading". It can be used to separate resource-intensive tasks from your UI, so that your UI doesn't slow to a crawl (or hang completely)!
48. Re:Wow.... by Kenshin · 2010-10-19 08:23 · Score: 1
  
  "If Microsoft wrote iTunes people would point at it as a symbol of everything that is wrong with Microsoft."
  If Microsoft wrote iTunes, it would have a "ribbon" by now.
  
  --
  Does it make you happy you're so strange?
49. Re:Wow.... by Joe+Jay+Bee · 2010-10-19 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  I do not intend this to be a troll or flamebait, but I firmly believe that iTunes is the worst piece of software ever written. It manages to make a dual core behemoth slow to a crawl. It takes christ knows how long to open, when Windows Media Player is damn near instant. It shits all over any UI guideline fed to it and runs like crap. It is a work of Satan and it should be destroyed.
  Rant over... ;)
  
  --
  I write bullshit
50. Re:Wow.... by blippo · 2010-10-19 08:47 · Score: 1
  
  I just stopped reading when I got to the "notes" and "genius" part.
  He may be a nice guy, but the long list of "impressive" stuff he's made looks more like a list of shit that desperate clueless suits hope will be the Next Big Thing, but won't ever.
51. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 08:50 · Score: 0
  
  Ribbons aren't a bad thing; they were just a drastic change in UI. I am no Microsoft fan. In fact, I've been a 90% Mac user since Jaguar (2002), and Linux before that.
  It took me about a week of complaining about Office 2007's ribbons before I came to appreciate them, and I still vastly prefer that interface to Office 2008 for Mac.
52. Re:Wow.... by Smauler · 2010-10-19 08:51 · Score: 1
  
  Vista worked well on relatively high end hardware of the time... my install initially went from boot menu to usable desktop in 15 seconds, from cold boot. Now it's about 25 seconds, because I've got more things preloaded. This is on well under top range hardware from two years ago. If that is bloated, sluggish, or whatever else... I've yet to experience a really quick boot.
53. Re:Wow.... by kiddygrinder · 2010-10-19 09:15 · Score: 1
  
  i'm pretty sure the EU have already pursued anti-trust action against *apple* for that reason
  
  --
  This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
54. Re:Wow.... by hairyfeet · 2010-10-19 09:29 · Score: 1
  
  Well my friend you were one of the lucky ones. At the time I had two desktops, a very high end Cedar Mill 3.6Ghz P4 and a low end Kuma core AMD dual, and on both with 2Gb of RAM it frankly sucked ass. Here is my little ode to Vista, feel free to sing along!
  Oh Vista, how I hated thee, let me count the ways: Network:WTF? I listen to music and the fucking file transfers SLOW DOWN? What is this, Win98? before anyone says it it wasn't fixed for me with SP1, which is when I gave up on Vista. Network: Where the hell are my shared folders? everyone else can see them, but Vista keeps having a brain fart and losing them. The only cure? reboot. Thanks, I had forgotten how much "fun" daily reboots were when I went from Win9x to win2K. Thanks Vista! Performance: WTF IS THRASHING MY DRIVE? I tried EVERY trick and tip I found on the web, turned off indexing (which sucked because indexing on 7 is great and having everything indexed is a useful feature!) and yet no matter how little I was doing,hell even just sitting on the desktop, Vista would thrash its ass off. it ended up KILLING a brand new Maxtor 200Gb with all the thrashing. Thanks Vista! Performance: SHUT UP UAC! I mean seriously WTF? Every damned thing I do it is bugging the piss out of me? I thought when I went to 7 I would have to make UAC DIAF like on Vista, but behold? It doesn't bug me unless I'm installing something which is what it SHOULD have been with Vista. Performance: WTF is with the "senior" moments where Vista just "freezes" for like 3-10 seconds, just long enough to piss me off? I mean seriously it wasn't like I was doing heavy lifting here, sometimes even just clicking on a folder would cause Vista to jerk worse than Win95 on 4Mb of RAM. Wow, I had forgotten what it was like to curse at my machine like I did under win9x. Thanks Vista!
  Frankly I could go on ALL day, and I'm far from alone on this. My biggest selling service when Win 7 came out was droves of people wanting Vista to DIAF because they couldn't stand it. I have a nice lady at the cigarette store bringing her desktop by next week because when she heard one of the girls talking to me about her PCs problems she said "Hey, you fix PCs? Can you help me? I'm on Vista and I HATE the damned thing!". Of course the first thing I said is "You're on Vista? I'm sorry" and she said "I've heard that a dozen times already! Is Windows 7 REALLY any good?" and after I told her I'd been running it for over a year (since Beta 2) without a SINGLE crash or fuckup, she was like "Oh thank God! Between the lockups, the slowdowns, the crashes, and the just slow as hell problem I thought I'd have to throw this expensive desktop away! When can you put win 7 on?".
  So I'd say you simply got lucky. for a comparison I have an old guy that still runs WinME, and for him on that machine it is actually quite nice. I actually managed to find out what the trick was with WinME, and why it was so unstable if anybody cares, by looking at his machine. The trick with WinME was you had to run NOTHING but WDM drivers. If you ran ANY VXDs it would do like mine did, and BSOD or screw up pretty much constantly, unfortunately MSFT in their infinite stupidity allowed ME to support BOTH VXD and WDM drivers, and most OEM only wrote WDM for their NEWER devices, while leaving the older designs VXD. This created a hodge podge mess when sound and IDE drivers were VXD and video and network were WDMs, so crash city. But I last tried Vista on a customer's laptop just the other day, and frankly compared to Win 7 it is just shit. When he asked me why Windows 7 was better I let him play on my desktop, and it wasn't three minutes until he said "Sold. I'll bring it back next week for Windows 7 Home".
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
55. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 09:40 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Apple isn't simple, it's merely simplistic.
56. Re:Wow.... by drsmithy · 2010-10-19 09:42 · Score: 1
  
  Err, the quote was that Windows and Office were bloated(which directly translates to bad performance on older hardware) [...]
  It's a particularly laughable statement when the comparison is OSX, which had atrociously poor performance even on the fastest hardware available, for several *years* after its initial release.
57. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 09:44 · Score: 0
  
  We can all agree Linux sucks though
  Look how much time they wasted whining about Vista, they wrote more lines of whining than actual code for the desktop.
58. Re:Wow.... by tsm_sf · 2010-10-19 10:11 · Score: 1
  
  Why would you care if the author is biased towards one OS or another? The article doesn't have anything to do with Apple.
  
  --
  Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
59. Re:Wow.... by astrellon · 2010-10-19 10:31 · Score: 1
  
  I full agree! And on some rare occasions, it's caused a instant reset, and some rarer again it's caused my computer to BSOD. BSOD! The only other time I've had my computer BSOD in the last few years was when I installed a faulty memory stick! So iTunes in my mind is at least as bad as a faulty hardware in terms of how much fun it is to use.
60. Re:Wow.... by war4peace · 2010-10-19 11:42 · Score: 1
  
  Well what can I say... lately, Slashdot is full of Apple News. And as much as I like Slashdot's uniqueness, this Apple fanboism flood of news kind of makes me puke. Enough is enough, already.
  
  --
  ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
61. Re:Wow.... by MoeDrippins · 2010-10-19 12:43 · Score: 1
  
  I was thinking the same thing. Apple's stuff from a hardware perspective is pretty, and the UI is... well thought out certainly. But overall I haven't seen Apple's software to be quite so orgasmatronical as the headline seems to assert.
  Of course, MS' offerings are indeed bloated and underwhelming in everything but size.
  
  --
  Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
62. Re:Wow.... by aiht · 2010-10-19 13:40 · Score: 1
  
  While that would be nice, it still wouldn't help in the cases where it's slowed the entire system to a crawl :P
63. Re:Wow.... by aiht · 2010-10-19 13:43 · Score: 1
  
  The sentence starts with conditional "if" and it looks like a question but has no actual question mark so I'm not sure if that is a question that one should answer or a statement of opinion. But either way it is highly biased sentence.
  If it's a question then it's a leading one and would be objected if asked in court of law.
  If it's a statement of opinion then it's biased by definition.
  That doesn't look like a question to me, just a (biased, sure) conditional statement.
  Look, you did the same thing twice - the conditional statement, not the bias ;)
64. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 13:54 · Score: 0
  
  @astrellon what kind of OS allows a userland application to cause a #BSOD?
65. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 14:29 · Score: 0
  
  When I need help in the command line: man program or program -h or program --help
  When I need help in an OS X app: click the help menu, type in what I'm looking for and the relevant menus are listed
  When I need help in a Windows app: click on menus and submenus until something looks right
  When I need help in Office with Ribbon: Stare at the ribbon. Guess at where something might be located. Hope that it's in the right click menu. Run a bing search (just kidding, i use google).
66. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 15:35 · Score: 0
  
  But maybe quite a lot of people want most of those functions, and don't give a monkey's whether they're bundled up in a single application or not.
67. Re:Wow.... by epine · 2010-10-19 15:39 · Score: 1
  
  It's a tool folks NOT a ball club, there is no needs for fans here.
  Huh. I would have sworn it was a professional sports league with a binding fifteen year ELC, trade deadline two weeks into the season, head office review of all injury claims, binding arbitration with a league appointed arbitrator, exclusive ownership of stadiums built with pubic money, $10 hormone-filled mystery-meat hotdogs, and restricted free agency that doesn't kick in until age 35.
  Amazing how perceptions vary.
68. Re:Wow.... by davester666 · 2010-10-19 15:47 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Typical Microsoft off by 1 error. Aim for the CEO, hit the CTO...
  
  --
  Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
69. Re:Wow.... by vux984 · 2010-10-19 18:09 · Score: 1
  
  @astrellon what kind of OS allows a userland application to cause a #BSOD?
  I wouldn't be surprised if iTunes dug deeper than being a 'userland' application. In fact, I'd actually be surprised if it was. Its got all sorts of OS/driver hooks for DRM (legacy AAC), HDCP, etc), plus of course all the iphone/ipod/ipad sync stuff...
  Strictly speaking it might not be itunes causing the bsod, and might be any number of drivers that itunes installs/uses... same difference to the user.
70. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 23:08 · Score: 0
  
  IIRC it installs (on windows at least) a custom USB driver to enable some kind of magic wrt ipod sync..
71. Re:Wow.... by TOGSolid · 2010-10-20 00:54 · Score: 1
  
  Wins what? Everyone who I've gotten to switch Windows 7 has commented at how easy it is to use and that it "just works." I haven't used a mac since I was in middle school, but if Itunes is any indication of your current average Apple "experience" then it's safe to say that Apple doesn't know a god damn thing about how to create an intuitive and well layed out UI.
72. Re:Wow.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-20 03:43 · Score: 0
  
  That pretty much sums it up
73. Re:Wow.... by hesaigo999ca · 2010-10-20 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  Well the fact that M$ had every opportunity to show him different, and instead just proved the point even more, speaks volumes, M$ does not care about its customers, M$ does not care about sending out finished, good and solid working products into the masses, the only M$ worries about is $....which is why they have such lame commercials....
  >I am a PC and I can't come up with anything ingenious as we do not allow for that in our budget,
  so I will just repeating I am a PC and hope it catches on...
74. Re:Wow.... by thetoadwarrior · 2010-10-21 11:59 · Score: 1
  
  It's true that Apple's efforts on Windows have been less than perfect, that's not the case on OS X. Like wise MS products are less than perfect on Mac products.
Take Ballmer with you by HangingChad · 2010-10-19 05:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

That would be really helpful. MSFT would be a better company without monkey boy.

--
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
ok... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:14 · Score: 2, Funny

while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences
http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/
Maybe Microsoft HR got confused... by Da_Biz · 2010-10-19 05:14 · Score: 2, Funny

...and thought his resignation letter was spoofed by spyware running on a Windows PC.
finally by zill · 2010-10-19 05:15 · Score: 5, Funny

If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences, this analysis will solve that mystery.
Finally the mystery has been solved! The suspense was killing me.
1. Re:finally by recoiledsnake · 2010-10-19 05:23 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Now comes word that Microsoft's head designer Ray Ozzie -- officially Chief Software Architect, de facto the highest-level designer in the company, with a purview outside the tired Windows/Office megalith -- has decided to take a break.
  Someone that gets confused between a designer and an architect has no right to write a tech article such as this one.
  
  --
  This space for rent.
2. Re:finally by Ethanol-fueled · 2010-10-19 05:28 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Still, they probably snatched him up just so that he wouldn't bring his talent anywhere else.
  
  Being top talent at Microsoft must be like being an environmental liazon for BP.
3. Re:finally by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-19 05:35 · Score: 1
  
  I would have said that someone who thinks Lotus Notes was "Designed by geniuses" has no right to write period. If there was a god, he would break Woody Leonhard's thumbs for that.
4. Re:finally by Jeff+DeMaagd · 2010-10-19 05:39 · Score: 1
  
  Ha! Good point. Though I don't know if Microsoft software is well-architected. Most software isn't, and sometimes Apple's software has poor underpinnings despite a nice facade. For example, I couldn't get the first generation of Aperture (version 1.5) to print a photo properly to save my life, it's far easier to export a photo to iPhoto and print from there, with no risk of wasting photo paper or ink. They fixed that in 3.0.
  Design is more than just the look and feel of objects or software. Architecture and engineering are different kinds of design than what people typically understand as design.
5. Re:finally by chord.wav · 2010-10-19 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  Ray was the butler. It's always the butler...
6. Re:finally by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 08:21 · Score: 0
  
  Someone that gets confused between a designer and an architect has no right to write a tech article such as this one.
  The only difference is an architect can design a maze in one minute that takes two minutes to solve.
7. Re:finally by Trepidity · 2010-10-19 09:00 · Score: 1
  
  That seems to be more Microsoft's fault than the article author's. Ozzie's title was "Chief Software Architect", but his job was indeed somewhat closer to product design than software architecture. That, plus a good mix of management/politics thrown in, since his real job was to attempt to make something happen out of the slow-moving behemoths that make up Microsoft's various product and dev teams.
  
  --
  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
8. Re:finally by Trepidity · 2010-10-19 09:07 · Score: 1
  
  It's interesting how the terms are used differently. On the web and in popular culture, it seems "design" has taken to be synonymous with things like web design and interior design, with a focus on visual look, layout, colors, etc., perhaps with some UX thrown in. But in design as an academic discipline, architecture (in the designing buildings sense) is seen as a fairly canonical example of design.
  
  --
  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's for the best anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:15 · Score: 0

Quite frankly, I think Ray Ozzy is insane. Have you noticed that he is frowning all the time?
1. Re:It's for the best anyway by oneiros27 · 2010-10-19 05:19 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I personally suspect that the people who are smiling all the time are the ones who are insane.
  The ones who frown at least have a chance of being connected to reality.
  
  --
  Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
2. Re:It's for the best anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!
3. Re:It's for the best anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:23 · Score: 0
  
  WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!
  I think the Crazy Train just went by.
4. Re:It's for the best anyway by An+ominous+Cow+art · 2010-10-19 06:41 · Score: 1
  
  You're just being paranoid.
5. Re:It's for the best anyway by fabioalcor · 2010-10-19 07:44 · Score: 1
  
  Ozzy... why so serious?
6. Re:It's for the best anyway by pandrijeczko · 2010-10-19 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, you're both wrong.
  Ozzy *SANG* paranoid.
  "SHARON????"
  
  --
  Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
7. Re:It's for the best anyway by An+ominous+Cow+art · 2010-10-19 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  An AC had already made the 'Crazy Train' joke, so I took the leftovers :-).
Did they mean by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:16 · Score: 0

...while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences of bloat and underwhelming
Ozzie is the Lotus Notes guy? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:17 · Score: 0

Thank god for steaming piles like Notes.
Gives the Office team someone to look down on.
I never wondered why Office was so bloated by decipher_saint · 2010-10-19 05:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Inside every version of "Word" is every previous version of word, so you can open that Office '97 document just as easily as your 2010 document.
Bloat accrues in most software I reckon.
That said, it's sad to see when talent is trumped by management but I think we all know that's par for the course in IT.

--
crazy dynamite monkey
1. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by CarpetShark · 2010-10-19 05:25 · Score: 1
  
  Inside every version of "Word" is every previous version of word, so you can open that Office '97 document just as easily as your 2010 document.
  Oh really? Open any previous version in Word? The rest of us must be cursed then.
2. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-19 05:27 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I've thought OpenOffice was much better at opening older versions of Word (especially 97 versions) than Office . It seemed something changed after Office 2003. But that's just my perception.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
3. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:27 · Score: 0
  
  Inside every version of "Word" is every previous version of word, so you can open that Office '97 document just as easily as your 2010 document.
  Why does the file format for a *word processor document* change to much with every version that you need a complete copy of the previous version just to open it, then?
  What you say is probably true, but it's also misleading; the answer to my question is that this keeps you on the upgrade treadmill and makes you pay money to Microsoft again, and again, and again. So that is where this part of the bloat comes from, ultimately: greed. Certainly a far cry from "bloat accrues in most software I reckon" - you're giving Microsoft far too much credit.
4. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by h4rr4r · 2010-10-19 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  You are right, word does not contain every old version.
5. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by bjourne · 2010-10-19 05:33 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Word has lots of features yes. But it is not slow or more unresponsive when compared to other office suites. OpenOffice always loads much slower than MS Office for me on similar hardware. MS Word's speed is on par with Abiword, although the former has many more features. Excel on par with Gnumeric, OpenOffice Calc is the slowest one by a margin. The reason may be that Windows preloads the libraries MS Office uses and therefore gets a speed advantage. Never the less, the end result is a better user experience.
  
  --
  Football Odds
6. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by decipher_saint · 2010-10-19 05:36 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I think there was a cutoff at some point (Office 2005?) where it only went back as far as 2003, but I've had some experience working with Office guts and there are some mind-bendingly old components still being used that only kick in with specific document versions.
  Mind you, it's been about 4 years since I mucked about in there so who knows what changed, but the point I was trying to make still stands.
  The longer a piece of software is around the more likely it is to bloat.
  
  --
  crazy dynamite monkey
7. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by numbski · 2010-10-19 05:47 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  This is the precise reason that i use .rtf as much as possible. If I don't need any super-fancy formatting, I always save as .rtf. Cross platform (for the most part), opens in just about every version of everything that I'm aware, including Microsoft Works if I recall correctly.
  
  --
  Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
8. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by TemporalBeing · 2010-10-19 05:50 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I've thought OpenOffice was much better at opening older versions of Word (especially 97 versions) than Office . It seemed something changed after Office 2003. But that's just my perception.
  OpenOffice writes better Microsoft Office documents than Microsoft Office does. Whether they legacy binary formats, or the newer XML formats. I've taken to using OO Writer for most things, and then ensuring everything is still there when I make the Word version, though it's mostly just the cross-references that I have to redo for some reason.
  
  --
  Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
9. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by decipher_saint · 2010-10-19 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  Amen to that. I was happy with Clarisworks two decades ago, mind you I'm not writing much beyond code or the occasional estimate doc these days so I'm not exactly the core Office user type.
  
  --
  crazy dynamite monkey
10. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:55 · Score: 0
  
  Say what? No, I'm sorry that is not how it works. It uses file import filters to import/export old documents into the new format. Just like OpenOffice.org does to open Office documents. Office 2010 is slower than Office XP on certain tasks but much faster than Office 2007 overall. It also uses an interface that is streamlined for Web access. Which makes the online version that looks just like the desktop version possible.
  I'm a huge fan OpenOffice.org but I have to admit that on similar hardware it is slower than Microsoft Office.
11. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by alen · 2010-10-19 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  MS Office is like Walmart. an average wal mart carries tens of thousands of products so you can find almost anything you need. MS Office has features that 100% of people need in an office suite. not everyone needs the same features, but everyone uses all of them
  Apple is like 7-11. the stuff people use the most is in there, but missing most features competitors have. and it costs more than wal mart
12. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by s73v3r · 2010-10-19 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  Another reason for the speed disparity between MS Office and OpenOffice is that OO loads the entire suite when you start it up, whereas MS Office only opens the one component. At least this was true a year or so ago.
13. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by TheRaven64 · 2010-10-19 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  Because people are using their word processors as typesetters. I actually have to keep two copies of TeXLive installed, because some time in the last two years someone tweaked one of the layout algorithms slightly and the result is that a small number of paragraphs have line breaks in different places. Unfortunately, this means that one of the chapters in my second book gets typeset differently with the '08 and '10 editions. If I want to produce changes for the second printing, I have to minimise the number of pages, and a reflow on chapter 4 with the new editions upsets all of the page numbers for subsequent pages, so I have to use the old version.
  Word has a similar problem. They've been constantly tweaking the layout algorithms for a long time. Even if it can open an old version file, if it breaks the lines in different places then this is a problem for maintaining the same visual appearance.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
14. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by PCM2 · 2010-10-19 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Errr, I know Wikipedia isn't a primary source, but the first couple of lines of the entry on RTF sums up nicely what I've always understood about RTF:
  
  The Rich Text Format (often abbreviated RTF) is a proprietary document file format with published specification developed by Microsoft Corporation since 1987 for Microsoft products and for cross-platform document interchange.
  Most word processors are able to read and write some versions of RTF. There are several different revisions of RTF specification and portability of files will depend on what version of RTF is being used. RTF specifications are changed and published with major Microsoft Word/Microsoft Office versions.
  
  --
  Breakfast served all day!
15. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by jgrahn · 2010-10-19 07:12 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Because people are using their word processors as typesetters. I actually have to keep two copies of TeXLive installed, because some time in the last two years someone tweaked one of the layout algorithms slightly and the result is that a small number of paragraphs have line breaks in different places. Unfortunately, this means that one of the chapters in my second book gets typeset differently with the '08 and '10 editions. If I want to produce changes for the second printing, I have to minimise the number of pages, and a reflow on chapter 4 with the new editions upsets all of the page numbers for subsequent pages, so I have to use the old version.
  I hope that by "someone" you mean "someone at my college/company" because Knuth really, really hates when someone does such changes (there's a tirade on his homepage about a hacked Computer Modern where a certain greek letter got slightly wider).
  If not, you should file a high-importance bug report with TeXLive.
16. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by BlackSnake112 · 2010-10-19 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  Inside every version of "Word" is every previous version of word, so you can open that Office '97 document just as easily as your 2010 document.
  Oh really? Open any previous version in Word? The rest of us must be cursed then.
  Are you mixing up previous version and next version? For example I remember many people complaining that their word 2003 could not open a word 2007 file. They were saying that word is not backwards compatible. When they meant that word is not forwards compatible. Which is not a common thing in programs as far as I know. Anyway people with word files older then word 97 (word 95 and before) are out of luck. I had to build a win 3.11 machine with the old DOS word to open a few of those files recently. I was surprised the 5.25 floppies still worked.
17. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by TheRaven64 · 2010-10-19 07:38 · Score: 1
  
  Stock installs in both cases, but I haven't bothered to track down exactly what the change was - it could have been anything from one of the package I use changing a constant somewhere to a real change in the algorithm. Even changing the hyphenation list could make such a change.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
18. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Angst+Badger · 2010-10-19 08:14 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  MS Word's speed is on par with Abiword, although the former has many more features.
  MS Word is vastly faster than Abiword if you're working on a large (and by large, I mean 1000+ pages with complex formatting, indexing, etc.) document. But that's a problem that I run into in a lot of FOSS office apps: it seems like the developers on those projects just never use them the way ordinary users in a business environment use them, so it never comes to their attention how badly they perform on real-world tasks. Granted, the ways Word and particularly Excel are used in most corporate environments are horrifying -- using vast spreadsheets as ad hoc databases, for example -- but that's just the way it is. And just because I don't abuse Excel that way doesn't mean that I don't have to deal with documents from people who do.
  What bothers me most is that Office 97 did everything I needed and then some, and very little that's been added in the meantime has been of any use to me. Office 97 ran very well on a 120MHz Pentium with 16 megs of RAM. What I hoped to see come out of FOSS office software was something like that. Instead, we get OpenOffice, which is at least as bloated as MS Office and actually performs less well in many respects.
  This is why I just can't get into fanboyism. Apple, Microsoft, and the equivalent major applications in the FOSS world all suck. They suck in different ways, and depending on what you're doing, one of the three will suck less than the rest. But whichever you choose will still suck -- and by that, I don't mean the less-than-perfect quibbles we all have with pretty much everything; I mean that you'll be dealing with serious deficiencies. If you complain, Apple will tell you that you don't get it, Microsoft will ignore you, and most FOSS developers will tell you to submit a patch if it bothers you so much.
  
  --
  Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
19. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by ceoyoyo · 2010-10-19 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  Yes - it's strange nobody seems to be able to write a decent office suite. Probably because they're all trying to copy Microsoft.
  Take the simplest thing, say, inserting a figure into a word processing document. Word literally has no good way of doing this. I knew a guy who always put the figure and caption into cells in a one column, two row table. That approach has various problems. I usually use a text box, which SEEMS to be the correct solution, but those things seem to jump around like bunnies on speed. Put two of them on one page, move one, and the other seems to decide things are getting too crowded and goes to find another page to call home. And a few figures slows everything to a crawl.
  Pages on my iPad handles figures better than Word does.
20. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 09:57 · Score: 0
  
  MS Word doesn't load fast, it just loads a shitload of stuff at boot time. If you want the same for OpenOffice, use OpenOffice's quickstarter.
21. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Hadlock · 2010-10-19 17:13 · Score: 1
  
  At my last job (2009) we were still using Office 97 on XP. For normal day to day usage, not to mention great compatibility (everyone supports office 97). From what I can tell, there are some improvements in Excel (sheet size), but Word was more or less perfected by 1995. Excel 2007 is actually missing some (a lot?) of power user features that 97 has.
  
  --
  moox. for a new generation.
22. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by KingAlanI · 2010-10-19 18:06 · Score: 1
  
  You appear to be talking about this:
  http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/cm.html
  
  --
  I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
23. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by HyperQuantum · 2010-10-19 22:57 · Score: 1
  
  I always save as .rtf. Cross platform (for the most part), opens in just about every version of everything that I'm aware, including Microsoft Works if I recall correctly.
  Even in Notepad! Though maybe a little less readable...
  
  --
  I am not really here right now.
24. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-25 05:29 · Score: 0
  
  ... such as?
25. Re:I never wondered why Office was so bloated by Hadlock · 2010-10-26 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  Column/cell highlighting for the active cursor for one. There's a crude hack for 07 but it's destructive to existing sheet/cell coloring.
  
  --
  moox. for a new generation.
Who said Microsoft doesn't believe in design? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:17 · Score: 0

Yes, hard to swallow, but Microsoft believes in design, the really horrible kind.
That makes sense... by Rombuu · 2010-10-19 05:21 · Score: 4, Funny

...I mean look at the elegance and simplicity of Lotus Notes...

--

DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
1. Re:That makes sense... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-19 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  Hey now. That's below the belt.
2. Re:That makes sense... by heidaro · 2010-10-19 05:33 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Clean and elegant applications never sell in corporate environments. They need bloat and features that are never used.
3. Re:That makes sense... by Belial6 · 2010-10-19 06:06 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  You joke, but Microsoft has been trying to make their own version of Notes/Domino for as long as I have been working with it. I remember back in ~1996 I went to a MS event where they were telling us how Exchange was going to be the groupware product that surpassed Notes. It didn't take long before they gave up on creating a groupware environment via technical means, and just worked on redefining the word groupware.
  
  Now in 2010, the closes they have is Sharepoint. I have been doing some research into it recently as I will soon be doing some work in it, and it appears to be somewhere between Notes/Domino 3 and 4. It appears to be a decade behind.
  
  I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised because I will be working with it whether it is ahead of it's time or behind.
4. Re:That makes sense... by Dr.+Eggman · 2010-10-19 06:40 · Score: 1
  
  I've done a bit of work with Sharepoint. Even with the snazzy new stuff included with 2010, prepare for disappointment :(
  
  --
  Demented But Determined.
5. Re:That makes sense... by Blakey+Rat · 2010-10-19 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  Here's my personal judging criteria:
  1) Can use product without feeling urge to kill myself:
  * Sharepoint: Yes
  * Notes: No
  
  --
  Comment of the year
6. Re:That makes sense... by Belial6 · 2010-10-19 07:37 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, but using my waffle iron doesn't make me want to kill myself either, but that doesn't make it a good groupware product. There is only one reason that MS hired Ozzie. It was because he started Notes. Whether that was to remove him from Lotus, or to get his resources at MS, Microsoft clearly thinks Notes/Domino is a great product.
7. Re:That makes sense... by __aagmrb7289 · 2010-10-19 07:41 · Score: 1
  
  There is only one reason that MS hired Ozzie. It was because he started Notes. Whether that was to remove him from Lotus, or to get his resources at MS, Microsoft clearly thinks Notes/Domino is a great product.
  I don't know about that logic, man. I heard they were thinking about buying Adobe too. Do you really think Microsoft considers Adobe products to be anything but shit? ;)
8. Re:That makes sense... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 07:52 · Score: 0
  
  Microsoft SharePoint is a piece of garbage. Bloated, slow, timesout forcing users to login repeatedly and the version conrtrol is worse than useless for serious requirements. Oh, Microsoft touts SharePoint as a repleacement for web servers on internal networks.
9. Re:That makes sense... by Belial6 · 2010-10-19 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  Yes. I do. They would want to buy Adobe, because they want Flash, and have failed to take that market with their competitor. They wanted their own Flash, and have failed to succeed. It isn't the first time either. They tried to compete with Flash when it first came out, and failed. I don't remember the product name as it has been a long time...Sparkle...Sprinkle...Something like that. Anyone else remember the name of MS's first attempt to compete with Flash?
10. Re:That makes sense... by kamochan · 2010-10-19 08:11 · Score: 1
  
  Sharepoint is still a fancy, runs-over-http version of a shared drive, whose main benefits are 1) for users it's like a shared drive, and 2) you get to manage users centrally in AD. Plus 3) you get script hooks for directory operations.
  And it's complicated enough to earn many an IT consultant their daily bread for years to come :D
Two words by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-19 05:23 · Score: 1

Chair maze. You have to carefully work through the maze: you'd never know which one would get launched at you. :P

--
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by postmortem · 2010-10-19 05:23 · Score: 1, Insightful

If Apple is so good, why they use that 'bloated Office' by Microsoft?
1. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by CarpetShark · 2010-10-19 05:31 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  Uh, because Microsoft abused their monopoly? Where have you been these last few decades?
2. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Missing.Matter · 2010-10-19 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Abused their monopoly... please elaborate. I don't remember any antitrust rulings regarding office.
3. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:44 · Score: 0
  
  The better question is if Apple's so good why is their best known software release, iTunes, such a bloated clunky lump of crap?
4. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:47 · Score: 0
  
  Have you heard of books? Read one sometime. Start with this one before making another unfounded incorrect statement - "Winners, Losers, & Microsoft"
5. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by spire3661 · 2010-10-19 05:47 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  Denial. In this context, Office was just as much a part of the abusive monopoly as the OS was. The two are inextricable.
  
  --
  Good-bye
6. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  Yes that's right, how dare Microsoft create any programs for their OS.
  It's a good thing Apple does not design any software for OSX and push their monopoly at anyone.........
7. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by bonch · 2010-10-19 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  iWork
8. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by TheRaven64 · 2010-10-19 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  I suspect, because it was successful. iTunes 4.x was a really nice music organiser. It did everything that an app needs to do to manage a music collection, but nothing more. They used it to sync with the iPod, so they needed a Windows port, but they did a quick-and-dirty one where they effectively bundled a big chunk of OS X with it (for example, it does all of its own text rendering, rather than use the Windows text APIs). Then, because so many people were using it, they tried to use it to sell other stuff. Pretty much every release since 4.6 has been a step backwards, from a usability perspective.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
9. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 08:16 · Score: 0
  
  1999 US v Microsoft. Judge Jackson's findings of fact details Microsoft would not license Windows 95 to IBM unless IBM stopped pushing Lotus SmartSuite. Judge Jackson eventually ruled in 2000 that Microsoft be split up into several companies. His ruling was overturned on appeal and Microsoft and the US attorney general settled out of court in 2001. The resulting consent decree limits some of what Microsoft can and cannot do with Microsoft Office.The largest concern being "undocumented" APIs used by Microsoft Office applications that are not available to third party vendors.
  And did you miss all the various EU rulings just these past couple of years?
10. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 08:17 · Score: 0
  
  In what context?
11. Re:Troll article, remove that opinion sentence! by CarpetShark · 2010-10-20 01:02 · Score: 1
  
  No, never heard of them. Do enlighten me, oh Reader of Propaganda.
Pedants, take note. by RightSaidFred99 · 2010-10-19 05:26 · Score: 4, Informative

This is the very definition of begging the question. They should put that headline in the dictionary as a perfect example of it. If you find someone using "begs the question" to mean "makes me want to ask a question", when you correct them you can point them to this article.
1. Re:Pedants, take note. by vlm · 2010-10-19 06:01 · Score: 1
  
  This is the very definition of begging the question. They should put that headline in the dictionary as a perfect example of it. If you find someone using "begs the question" to mean "makes me want to ask a question", when you correct them you can point them to this article.
  It's hard to google for, so what if that someone would loose the URL in there bookmark's?
  (just kidding)
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
2. Re:Pedants, take note. by RightSaidFred99 · 2010-10-19 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  I could care less if that were to happen. Irregardless, it would literally take 1 millionth of a second to write down.
  (me too - though both literally and irregardless are losing their pedant-cred as the dictionary adapts to their misuse)
3. Re:Pedants, take note. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 07:50 · Score: 0
  
  This is the very definition of begging the question.
  Actually, no it isn't. It's the very definition of a rhetorical question. As with the colloquial use of "begs the question", no logical argument is being made.
  
  If you find someone using "begs the question" to mean "makes me want to ask a question", when you correct them you can point them to this article.
  Anyone who corrects that usage, like you, doesn't really know much about logic. It is true that only mindless pendants come to the defense of "begs the question". Anyone with half a clue uses the term Circular Reasoning, even when a question is part of the circle.
KISS by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:26 · Score: 0

The moral is: don't try to do too much too fast. Get the basics right and get them into users' hands, then work on the details.
Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:27 · Score: 0

"Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences"
Is iTunes in the "wonderful" category? Or the "almost" category?
Ozzie at Apple? by ScooterComputer · 2010-10-19 05:32 · Score: 1

Hrm. Since Apple has admitted that OS X development went a bit off track (for at least the 2nd time) due to iOS development, perhaps Apple could use a guy like Ozzie to act as the yang to Steve's ying: working on and leading the "off cycle" OS development while Steve spearheads the next great thing.

--
Scott
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Ding dong! by drlloyd11 · 2010-10-19 05:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Seriously, this is the man behind Lotus notes and Groove. Two of the biggest piles of snot ever made. His existence at MS was a blight. Now if they can get Balmer to join him they may have something there.
1. Re:Ding dong! by jitterman · 2010-10-19 06:45 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  To be fair, the article does point out that there is a wide gulf between his original concepts and what was actually implemented, in both cases.
  
  Totally agree with giving Balmer the heave-ho though.
  
  --
  For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
2. Re:Ding dong! by BlackSnake112 · 2010-10-19 07:45 · Score: 1
  
  Totally agree with giving Balmer the heave-ho though.
  Can we have a chair throwing contest? With Balmer as the target?
3. Re:Ding dong! by blair1q · 2010-10-19 07:53 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously, if there was ever a concept at all to Lotus Notes, it wasn't across a gulf, it was in another solar system.
4. Re:Ding dong! by funfail · 2010-10-19 21:32 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, Lotus Notes is a great idea, which is still currently being replicated (pun intended) by No-SQL databases (CouchDB, MongoDB etc). The user interface and bloat of the client (Lotus Notes) has nothing to do with the underlying architecture (NSF).
  
  --
  Search RapidShare and MegaUpload!
Genius? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

TFA lists a series of failed projects spearheaded by the guy, then claims - without any evidence - that the ideas were grand and it was MS which could not deliver - and concludes that Ray is an unappreciated genius of some kind. Yet it is clear even from a short glance that the ideas themselves were flawed or simply another also-ran. Come on, Groove? Azure? Live Mesh?
Deja Vu by zombieChan51 · 2010-10-19 05:37 · Score: 1

I swore I already saw story about this on Slashdot today.
Microsoft and design by byteherder · 2010-10-19 05:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

"...company that doesn't believe in design."

It is not that Microsoft doesn't believe in design, it is that they suck at it. The best case in point is Windows security.
1. Re:Microsoft and design by numbski · 2010-10-19 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  The problem is backwards compatibility. We're going through this here at work right now. People want Windows 7 because it's new and shiny. From a usability perspective, let's face it - it just doesn't bring anything new to the table that will compel us to upgrade. It also breaks stuff. A LOT of stuff. As in we might as well be going to Ubuntu - too many freaking web apps that require ActiveX, or IE's old broken JavaScript calls, or one-off win32's that were written poorly and require Administrator privileges, and that vendor is now gone gone gone - no chance of ever getting it updated, and no budget to have it re-written.
  Whether we want to or not, we're paying for Windows 6.1 with every new PC lease. If Windows 6.1 (what Microsoft is currently choosing to market as Windows 7) had simply said "look, we know we're breaking XP. If you need all of this old and broken stuff, stay on XP. Get on 7 if you want to be right going forward", then maybe this would be a different story.
  It's been a while since I looked, but I *think* the real Windows 7 is still being developed, and will probably be the OS that completely cuts off this backward compatibility nonsense that plagues all Windows users right now. If MS could ever get themselves on the type of cycle has, cutting off backwards support and regular, routine intervals, they'd be much better off. The fact that we're even *discussing* having to deal with Internet Explorer 5.5 quirks mode applications is just insanity.
  
  --
  Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
2. Re:Microsoft and design by nine-times · 2010-10-19 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, from what I've read, it does sound like Microsoft doesn't really believe in design. When Microsoft is creating/updating a UI, for example, they kind of throw it together and then do massive amounts of testing, finding out what users like and what they don't like, measuring how users respond, etc, and then altering the UI to achieve the best user response.
  Apple, as a counter-example, seems to rely on talented UI designers and the personal tastes of Steve Jobs.
  It seems to me like a very different design philosophy. It's almost like Apple believes in intelligent design while Microsoft believes in evolution.
3. Re:Microsoft and design by Abcd1234 · 2010-10-19 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  Weird that you say that given that, at its core, Windows NT and on is architected as a microkernel with large swathes of the OS running in user space. Meanwhile, the operating system has a very powerful fine-grained access control scheme (which can actually be a pain in the arse, sometimes, due to its complexity). The real problem was always legacy applications.
  Unfortunately, it wasn't until later that OSX proved that breaking away from that legacy and using virtualization as a transition mechanism could work, as computers are sufficiently powerful, these days, to make that an option.
4. Re:Microsoft and design by BlackSnake112 · 2010-10-19 07:59 · Score: 1
  
  Get the windows 7 pro, ultimate, or enterprise version. With those you can download the VM to run XP in. Windows calls it XPMode, but it is just the windows VM. The big difference is the XPMode VM sees all of the host machine drives. No drive mapping needed. Which helps in a domain environment. The 20 or so people I have set it up for (for an old app that required XP) love it. I have yet to try this for old games, but for office applications we have yet to have an issue. It is like supporting two machines at the same time, so all updates and patches are the same. The host machine should be 'bigger'. Usually a dual core or quad core with 4GB (or more) of RAM. That way you can give a decent amount of resources to both the host OS and the VM. A single core CPU with 512MB of RAM I would not use as the host machine running a VM.
  I think that is the way microsoft is leaning. They want people to use the new OS and run the old OS (XP) in a VM to run all the old applications. If microsoft would make a very secure OS it could be a nice setup. The secure host OS and the VM to run all your old apps. Of course a really secure host OS would not let XP have any access to the outside world.
5. Re:Microsoft and design by Lonewolf666 · 2010-10-19 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft has a problem there - break too many old applications and people actually might as well go to Ubuntu. So they try to get away with a compromise design that tries to add security while keeping most old stuff running. Which is only halfway successful. Take the "virtual store" in Vista and Windows 7 for example:
  For old applications that write data into their installation directory, the user gets a personal copy of the files in question into his user profile. Works fine after first installation and for one user. But as soon as you use the software from different accounts or uninstall/reinstall, you will see differences to Windows XP (let alone Windows 98).
  I tend to agree that at some point Windows will need to break a lot of the old "standards". But doing so will hurt Microsoft for a while. Just like the big switch to OS X was difficult for Apple.
  
  --
  C - the footgun of programming languages
6. Re:Microsoft and design by Gadget_Guy · 2010-10-19 12:14 · Score: 1
  
  Unfortunately, it wasn't until later that OSX proved that breaking away from that legacy and using virtualization as a transition mechanism could work, as computers are sufficiently powerful, these days, to make that an option.
  Apple wasn't the first to do this. Microsoft used Virtual DOS Machine for DOS under Windows (including Soundblaster emulation), Windows on Windows for 16 bit Win 3.x apps under 32 bit Windows, and WOW64 for 32 bit apps under 64 bit Windows.
  They also had subsystems for POSIX and OS/2 executables. All this (except WOW64) dates back to 1993. These days, the only legacy subsystem in use in the 64 bit version of Windows is WOW64.
7. Re:Microsoft and design by Grishnakh · 2010-10-19 16:16 · Score: 1
  
  It's more like Microsoft believes in design by committee.
  Finding out what a bunch of users do and don't like is going to yield a committee design; there's no way to please a broad range of users on UI design, because different people have different preferences. By using this approach, you end up with a design that no one really likes.
Weird by Tei · 2010-10-19 05:41 · Score: 1

Corporations seems to have money to have a hand on all potential markets, so wen these markets develop, can claim FRIST, like a lowlife slashdot troll. Bause of his size, is not significat expensive to then for the most part, or becuase some side effect, can have a net positive (Xbox 360 lose a lot of money, but probably generate it by other side effects).
So I read this news as "Microsoft abandon the web".
Weird.

--
-Woof woof woof!
Slashdot = cutting-edge opinion clearinghouse? by eyenot · 2010-10-19 05:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

Is it just me or is slashdot being used as a battleground for geek opinion? Whenever there's news about some company, that same day, sometimes within a couple of hours, there's counter-news or propaganda that spin the situation or introduce some other closely related variable that seems intended to take advantage of the information the news dissipated. Is slashdot basically commercially compromised at this point?

--
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
1. Re:Slashdot = cutting-edge opinion clearinghouse? by delta534 · 2010-10-19 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  You must be new here.
2. Re:Slashdot = cutting-edge opinion clearinghouse? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:40 · Score: 0
  
  I thought it was like this just on slow days, now it's slowly making its way to casual Fridays too.
3. Re:Slashdot = cutting-edge opinion clearinghouse? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 09:08 · Score: 0
  
  +5 Insightful!
  Wow, thanks for pointing that out.
  Yes, it's a shame what's happened to Slashdot recently.
4. Re:Slashdot = cutting-edge opinion clearinghouse? by symbolset · 2010-10-19 14:13 · Score: 1
  
  Been like this for years. The Astroturfers have been onshored again from Bangalore because they now have enough budget for their own manned moon mission. The English grammar is better but the spelling is worse. You should see Facebook and Twitter, where you can buy 10,000 fans, followers, and likes, retweets and fan comments for $30. The automation on that is just atrocious. Some genius once said "A resource that is free and unlimited will become worthless." The Internet is almost there.
  
  --
  Help stamp out iliturcy.
Troll by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:43 · Score: 0

Seriously, CumTaco? I realize that you didn't write the summary, but even you should recognize trolling as bad as this when you see it.
iTunes by ACAx1985 · 2010-10-19 05:44 · Score: 1

iTunes is more "bloated" and "worse" than any Microsoft Office app I've ever used.
Doesn't believe in design? by CokoBWare · 2010-10-19 05:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

The OP is full of sh*t. I worked in MS Hardware at one point, and the UX team there led the way in many aspects of UX in MS's hardware products at one point. This spilled over into their supporting software products too. The company as a whole has been pushing hard in the UX space for quite some time, and there just aren't enough UX specialists to go around... the industry has been in a deficit for quite some time. Apple learned early on the UX side and this has been a tenet for them for quite some time. This is blatant trolling to say MS doesn't believe in design... making broad statements without really knowing what they are talking about. Windows 7 and Office 2010 represent a new era of MS apps with a strong emphasis on UX. IMHO, I think they are great advances in making MS products better overall for the user.
1. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:32 · Score: 0
  
  I worked in MS Hardware at one point, and the UX team there led the way in many aspects of UX in MS's hardware products at one point.
  So, at one point, the User Experience team at Microsoft hardware led the way in many aspects of User Experience in Microsoft's hardware products.
  In other words, at one point, the hardware Usear Experience team did many aspects of what it was supposed to do.
  So most of the time the MS UX hardware team does not do what it's supposed to do, and the one time it did, it only did "many" of the aspects of what it was supposed to do.
  Yeah, sounds like design is not a priority at Microsoft to me. Nor is basic English.
2. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:58 · Score: 0
  
  The OP is full of sh*t. I worked in MS Hardware at one point
  
  Then again, incompetents aren't aware of their level of incompetence.
3. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by twebb72 · 2010-10-19 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed. Function AND design. MS gets points in both categories.
  Apple only ever gets points in one of those categories.
  The whole article is just Apple fanboi vomit. Or perhaps written by a UI princess that never graduated high school.
  Perhaps both.
4. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by blair1q · 2010-10-19 07:57 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, they came up with an application that tells me, with a simple two-digit number (with a decimal point), just exactly what my User Experience is.
  Now if that isn't hitting their nail on the head, nothing will ever satisfy you guys.
5. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by CokoBWare · 2010-10-19 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  You're right... I'm a douche for not English grammar checking. You're a douche because you can't help it...
  To clarify:
  At the time I worked at MS, the Hardware User Experience (UX) team was a leading force in UX design at Microsoft. During my employment at MS, I asked the folks who lead UX training for Microsofties who would I talk to at Microsoft to discuss some outside educational opportunities pertaining to UX in post-secondary education. They pointed me to the MS Hardware UX team, stating they would be the best team because they were considered leaders on the UX in Microsoft. This was prior to Windows 7 or Office 2010 hitting the market.
  Things might be different now, as other teams within Microsoft have pushed hard to include UX principles in their products (Windows 7 and Office 2010 launched, and they are arguably better products than their predecessors have been). It's hard to say if the Hardware team is in a position of UX leadership today, but at the time, they were highly respected within the company (around 2007).
  God, nitpickers are annoying. But useful at times :)
6. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by sproketboy · 2010-10-19 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  So why can't I &*^*&^ simply paste plain text? I have to go "paste special" and chose "Text" over and &^*&^ over again. I NEVER LIKE TO PASTE WITH THE OTHER FORMATTING!
7. Re:Doesn't believe in design? by caitsith01 · 2010-10-19 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  So why can't I &*^*&^ simply paste plain text? I have to go "paste special" and chose "Text" over and &^*&^ over again. I NEVER LIKE TO PASTE WITH THE OTHER FORMATTING!
  Maybe you should try the option called "set default paste" and set it to "unformatted text". Amazing.
  
  --
  Read Pynchon.
I bought an iMac and run MacOS by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:45 · Score: 0

And spend most of my time in Windows 7 running on Virtual Box. I use Visual Studio and MS Office, two applications light years ahead of anything else in their spheres. Windows 7 is also better than MacOS in almost any way I can think but I am looking forward to the next release of MacOS to see if it catches up.
Nice computer, though.
PS: I think that MS decided to stop sucking, overall, in the years leading to Windows 7.
Design Shmazign by digitaldc · 2010-10-19 05:48 · Score: 1

"And you too will wonder how Ozzie could have lasted so long at a company that doesn't believe in design."
One word: MONEY

--
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Perhaps it's not enough? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 05:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Designed by geniuses. Implemented by idiots." The Notes architecture complete revolutionized the way businesses communicated. But the Notes product had so many enormously frustrating gaps and gaffes that people in the trenches hated it."
Alright. I can buy that.
"A product called Azure has been released, but the feature set doesn't even begin to match the lofty initial design." ...err, alright...
"Ozzie's biggest contribution to Microsoft's future direction has to be the Oct. 28, 2006, memo titled "The Internet Services Disruption." An insightful blueprint for the future, Microsoft stood up, took notice, but hasn't followed through very well." ...ok, so I guess that means tha...
"Two weeks ago, Microsoft disbanded Live Labs, it moved the team over to the Bing group, and the leader of Live Labs left."
Look, guys. There is more to being a visionary and a leader than simply having amazing pie in the sky ideas. In this place called the real world you actually need to get stuff done, and it seems that Mr. Ozzy has trouble doing that. I love amazing architecture as much as the next guy, but if a design simply never actually sees success for all its genius...well, I’m not sure how great a design it really was.
At a certain point, the problem might not be that everyone around you is such an idiot, it may be you're not quite as good as you thought you were.
1. Re:Perhaps it's not enough? by cowscows · 2010-10-19 07:36 · Score: 1
  
  This guy really could be a genius, and he could have a hundred other geniuses working for him, but still have his efforts stymied by one or two idiots who happen to be above him.
  I don't have any first-hand knowledge of the situation, but from what I've read, there seems to be a general consensus that there is a culture within Microsoft that can make it really hard to get things done. That wouldn't be unusual within a large company, especially one that's already heavily entrenched in a particular market.
  Dilbert is a conglomeration of the worsts of the corporate world, and then exaggerated a little bit. But only a little bit. The real world is full of people who will gladly take steps to trip up their coworkers if they feel that the success of others might threaten their own position. It takes good leadership at the very top to keep this from happening.
  That being said, I don't work at MS, I don't know this guy, in reality he might just plain suck at actually making good software. We may never known.
  
  --
  One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Let's grade on a curve by paulsnx2 · 2010-10-19 06:01 · Score: 5, Informative

When I was there, Microsoft graded every project on a curve, with compensation in the balance. The "lowest" performers got slammed, the peak performs got rich. I imagine nothing has changed, except fewer people get rich.
Their system of evaluating and compensating developers rewards "hot dogs", who by any standard are good developers, but penalizes cooperation and useful developer documentation. Anything you might do to help someone on your team be successful automatically and in a very measured way hurts your own compensation. Few developers can rise above this and work with others outside of what is necessary to get the appropriate check marks on the review. And when individuals do work closely with each other, they are very selective as to who they work with. You can't afford to make *everyone* on your team successful. Remember, the bell curve WILL be applied.
Other mechanisms are used at Microsoft are very good. They have a huge commitment to testing, and a huge commitment to process. They know within a few months into a project when they are going to deliver. They know well in advance when projects are going to be late. They research and know the competition.
However, at the end of the day, their culture does not allow for clean design. Clean design means working together and making it a priority to make all developers on a team as productive as possible. But even if the differences between developers are tiny, the bell curve will be applied. People will win, and people will lose. And don't think for a moment that subjective decisions do not come into play based on a developer's reputation and ties with other developers.
In the end, if you don't know how something works, don't expect the comments to be useful. Don't be surprised if two interfaces sit next to each other and both do nearly the same thing. Obviously one developer implemented something, and the next couldn't figure out how to use it.
Microsoft's bloat is mostly a result of their development culture. Sure, supporting ten years of file formats is a factor, but not as important as their development culture, IMHO.
1. Re:Let's grade on a curve by PietjeJantje · 2010-10-19 06:33 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  They know within a few months into a project when they are going to deliver.
  Was this prior or after Windows Vista?
2. Re:Let's grade on a curve by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-20 01:54 · Score: 0
  
  Funny, but there's a real answer. They knew fairly soon that the projected XP replacement (with stuff like WinFS) wouldn't fly, and cancelled it soon after. Vista was actually a second attempt, which was put under pressure to deliver because of that previous cancellation. So, for the uninformed it would seem that Vista was late, while others see a missing Windows version.
3. Re:Let's grade on a curve by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-20 02:16 · Score: 0
  
  Vista:premature ejaculation::Kin:morning after pill
What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:12 · Score: 0

Seriously, /. is approaching a level of Apple Shill that makes it pointless to read and a complete non factor in finding useful or interesting news in the tech space. It's gotten beyond just a poor choice in bias.
Design vs Design by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:24 · Score: 0

The article is fundamentally flawed.
Apple design referred to in the article (from what I can tell) = aesthetics / usability. As in antenna on outside of phone against engineering recommendations.
Microsoft design referred to in the article (from what I can tell) = application. As in writing windows from the ground up or the .NET CLR.
So with that said the entire article does not make any sense. Does Microsoft not believe in aesthetic design or application design? The latter would be really bad because I don't think they would be able to release software. The former seems pretty accurate until a few years ago, but still not on the level of Apple.
As to why Ozzie's vision were not implemented as he envisioned. Well that is anyone's guess. Maybe it was too much of a dream vs reality situation. All those features sound nice until you realize the plan to implement is a decade long. Google provides more freedom in this area, but it has a lot of misses too. Microsoft's reputation could not afford the misses so it is probably more controlled and calculated. Granted they still miss, but for example if Kin missed and Windows Phone missed, well that would be a big big problem. If Android missed, eh they have search and the web.
And the article doesn't exactly make Ozzie seem great. The Lotus Notes example of great design, poor implemenation is the fault of the designer. It had "many enormously frustrating gaps and gaffes" sounds like a high level architectural design problem to me. Gaps are not a developer's responsibility, that is an architect's or product manager or "designer".
Bad article is bad.
Indeed by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:25 · Score: 1, Insightful

I - like pretty much everyone else - hated ribbons when they came out. I actually began usin more OpenOffice just to avoid dealing with ribbons.
I - like pretty much everyone else - have since gotten used to them and realized, that they're quite an improvement. I can't wait to see them in OO.org, too.
1. Re:Indeed by Hadlock · 2010-10-19 17:08 · Score: 1
  
  Couple months in now, still not seeing the benefit of the ribbon interface, other than that it scales better with high resolution displays. Care to link to some of the pros/cons as seen by an excell/office guru?
  
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I see what you did there, Apple Marketing by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:27 · Score: 1, Insightful

... If you ever wondered why Microsoft's products like Windows and Office are so bloated and underwhelming, while Apple's are almost always wonderful experiences...
Can we skip the propoganda? I use a Mac & PC side by side, every day, and the Mac is far from an 'always wonderful experience'.
Say what? I have the opposite experience by CAIMLAS · 2010-10-19 06:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have the opposite experience: "Apple" programs are invariably frustrating UI experiences, vs. Microsoft ones, which (aside from the Ribbon of Agitation) are quite a bit more sensible.
I should note that I'm not a serious user of either OS; I've been using Linux almost exclusively for 12 years, and have only briefly used one or the other for work (roughly equal proportions).
Considering a development project, I looked at both Xcode and Visual Studio 2008. The ease with which I could start and get a basic app going in VS2k8 was many, many times easier than in Xcode (all previous development has been done on console with vi/vim, cvs, and the like - no GUI stuff).
I'm not even sure how Apple UIs could be considered 'better'. The only think remotely 'superior' about Apple's UI at this point in the game is their control panel, which is fairly minimal on text and clean. (There are also a lot fewer options, which is significant, IMO.)

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1. Re:Say what? I have the opposite experience by hedwards · 2010-10-19 10:24 · Score: 1
  
  The problem with MS is the lack of consistency. If you go from program to program, even just within the set that MS makes, there's a huge amount of variability. Which is problematic. Often times the applications don't look like they were written by the same company because in essence they weren't. They're created by different groups without any sort of consensus over the portions of the UI which don't need to change from program to program.
The Wall Street Journal says it best by bolivershagnasty · 2010-10-19 06:55 · Score: 3, Informative

Mr. Ozzie appeared to lose a key battle with Mr. Sinofsky two years ago when control of Live Mesh, a data synchronization technology developed by Mr. Ozzie's team, shifted to the Windows organization at the company. Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304410504575560621481900644.html?mod=WSJ_Tech_LEFTTopNews#ixzz12pfWBEBA About a year ago, oversight of another initiative Mr. Ozzie was involved in, its Windows Azure cloud computing technology, moved to the server and tools business run by the division's president, Bob Muglia. Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304410504575560621481900644.html?mod=WSJ_Tech_LEFTTopNews#ixzz12pfdfzcI
1. Re:The Wall Street Journal says it best by blair1q · 2010-10-19 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure I get why it's a problem that a software architect hands off his ideas to software implementers...
2. Re:The Wall Street Journal says it best by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 12:05 · Score: 0
  
  I'm not sure I get why it's a problem that a software architect hands off his ideas to software implementers...
  As such, wouldn't be a problem. It tends to become one when the builders make a shit of your architecture.
Welcome to Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 06:56 · Score: 1

I'm glad to know you've been let out of that cave they've been keeping you in.
Slashdot has always been like this, if not from Day 1 then certainly by Day 100. You just never noticed...
If You Say So (Re: Say What? ...) by EXTomar · 2010-10-19 08:04 · Score: 1

*Shrug* It seems like you are mistaking the consistent layout of Word as "sensible". There
Except for the recent changes to iTunes (which I wonder if a revamp of the MacOS UI is coming) the interfaces to a lot of Mac apps, especially Apple written ones are highly consistent. Looking at Word 2003, why are the things in the Tool menu there? Is "Options" really a tool? Looking at the Insert menu, are some of the things really necessary or should be broken into their own tool? Why do you need a Hyperlink under Insert? The way Word handles hyperlinks seems kind of clumsy if not dangerous. I guess the point is that a lot more thought needs to be put into some of the functions than is currently given. I won't be surprised if in the latest version of Office, in the latest version of Word that Hyperlink is still under Insert and it is still handled the same way but am not sure I'd call that "sensible".
Beyond this, I think Word and Excel let alone Office in general have gotten to much complexity (ie. bloat) from "feature creep". If you are just a student or guy who needs to write a quick document they don't touch or even need a majority of the features offered. That isn't to say that these features aren't useful to someone but as just a document creation tool it has gotten way to bloated and complex because someone may want to add some other feature. The danger for Microsoft is that things like Google Docs is more than sufficient and less cluttered than Word. Out of all of their products, Microsoft should offering tiered versions where an inexpensive, stripping down Word and Excel will work for a lot of people while the power users can go for the more expensive version.
Re:this is purely subjective by tqk · 2010-10-19 08:49 · Score: 1

I'm sure I'm biased against Apple products though, because I'm a heterosexual.
Hetero here. That joke's not funny. Are you really, or just making a joke acting like one? "On the Internet, no-one knows you're a dog."
Jeebus, I wish fifteen year old intellects suffering from testosterone overdoses would leave the fags alone. They're leaving the chicks to straights! Isn't that what we want? Yeah, they'd like to play with us instead. So what? How does that threaten our "manhood", if we're not interested?
To all the heteros out there, leave them alone. They're not hurting us. We ought to be protecting them.
Why would straights bully fags, when fags are expressly NOT after straight's women?!? I don't get it. This is anti-evolutionary behaviour. They're setting up the fags to win over themselves.
[meta: I think I'm offended by the general level of anti-GBLT hatred I've heard of lately, and seriously wondering why it's going on. I smell a Pogrom. Democracy is not good at protecting minorities. Meanwhile, I'm such a "straight" that I feel a little icky just using "GBLT" in a post. Sigh. Prejudice dies hard.]

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"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
Wonderful? by yoshi_mon · 2010-10-19 09:04 · Score: 1

I am not ashamed to pimp my oldschool Apple roots. The //e was a hackers dream. But the Woz Apple is far far away from the Jobs Apple. Jobs is all about controlling everything and thus making coin off it. And that is fine for what it is. I don't need total control over how my oven is made. I can let someone else control all the buttons and dials that control it. I'm just, in effect, an end user of that oven. If I really wanted control I'd install a Salamander in my house, and a deep fryer, and all the other things that let real chefs do all the sorts of things with food I don't want or need to do on a day to day basis.
Yeah I have a small deep fryer but it's barely big enough for an onion so I'm still limited in what I can do with it. (See what I did there Slashdot? A cooking analogy vs a car one...props me!) But as a Admin level user of IT stuff I don't need a Gated Wall around my tech. Yes I do like a Firewall there but that is not the same thing. I want control over what is going on and if I can't get it from X, Y is out there.
As such when we try to compare 'How wonderful Apple is' in terms of what goes on on Microsoft I'm not sure I follow. They are two sides of the same coin. Or at the very least kissing cousins.

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Bill Gates' second hitter by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-19 11:11 · Score: 0

By now you've read about Microsoft's announcement thatRay Ozzie is headed out the door. Bill Gates' designated second hitter in the software design department, Ray has been a driving force -- arguablythedriving force -- in Microsoft's long, laboredmarch to the cloud.
I misread that as "Bill Gates' designated second Hitler."
Intolerable by enter+to+exit · 2010-10-19 11:15 · Score: 1

The ads on the infoworld article are simply intolerable.

I find the one that "folds" the top right corner the page extremely nauseating.

Everytime i disable adblock......
Re:this is purely subjective by harrytuttle777 · 2010-10-19 11:36 · Score: 1

I think though doust protest too strongly. The whole world loves faggots, and that is why the whole world loves Apple products. This is as it should be. If anything he is putting HIMSELF down for not being a fellow turd burgler.
As for the reason heterosexuals seem to 'hate' faggots: It has nothing to do with evolution. Really it is just a case of sour grapes. The fags pretty much get to hang out with the guys all day, watch baseball, and get lots of hot gay but sex. Heterosexuals, on the other hand do all sorts of stupid things to get with the fairer( by fairer, I mean meaner, and bitchier) sex, and get shit on because of it. Do guys really like going 'antiqueing' . NO. This is why guys seem to hate fags. The smart people when the are born decide that this 'heterosexual' thing isn't for me. The dumb ones procreates. Hence we have the situation we are in now.
WHOA WHOA... what?!? by CodePwned · 2010-10-19 11:49 · Score: 1

QUOTE from Article: "Ray Ozzie first appeared on my radar screen when I heard about this amazing guy who designed Lotus Notes. If you never used Notes, count yourself lucky."
Lotus notes was and still is one of the worst pieces of software to work with. From a user AND IT perspective it is utter TRASH. It's internal browser, it's internal only rules.... my god... I stopped reading at this point. Let's be clear... it's ALMOST as bad as groupwise.
Re:this is purely subjective by tqk · 2010-10-19 11:57 · Score: 1

The whole world loves faggots
Which world is this you're speaking of? On my world, teenagers are killing each other over this crap.

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"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
Never got it by Autonomous+Crowhard · 2010-10-19 12:12 · Score: 1

Ozzie always confused me. The world has been moving closer and closer to integration and, as soon as he got to MS, they went in the other direction. MS restructured so that OS, Office, Gaming, and many others were their own profit centers. They were given bonuses or blasts depending on how they did individually. Now if that meant that OS did something that hurt Office, that was fine as look as OS got a win out of it.
The FUD about Vista has been thoroughly debunked by symbolset · 2010-10-19 13:47 · Score: 1

Just so we all know where we are here, a little orientation:

The FUD about Vista has been thoroughly debunked
- recoiledsnake.

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Help stamp out iliturcy.
Please no! by symbolset · 2010-10-19 13:59 · Score: 1

We need Steve Ballmer's vision and leadership at Microsoft to complete Microsoft's history. And by complete I mean "conclude". He is perfect right where he is. At the end, may the praise for his service to mankind be sung for a thousand years. I know of noone else who could pull off such a challenge.

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Help stamp out iliturcy.
Re:The FUD about Vista has been thoroughly debunke by recoiledsnake · 2010-10-19 14:48 · Score: 1

And your point is? I don't see any contradiction in my previous post.

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iBomb by epine · 2010-10-19 15:49 · Score: 1

Hrm. Previous post composed on an iMac will tiny little indistinct i and l characters and god awful chicklet keyboard with a dirty mind of its own. The joys of proofing in an eye-pleasing design font. My fingers are rarely wrong, but the i deceives.
And by mahadiga · 2010-10-19 16:20 · Score: 1

I still believe Judge Jackson's verdict to split Microsoft into 3 companies was a good idea.

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