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The Monopolies That Dominate the Internet

Tim Wu has a piece up at the Wall Street Journal pointing out that the free-market, open Internet — "competition in its purest form" — has evolved to be dominated by monopolies. Wu argues that this is nothing new, and that each wave of information technology in the US has followed a similar pattern. "Today's Internet borders will probably change eventually, especially as new markets appear. But it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are living in an age of large information monopolies. Could it be that the free market on the Internet actually tends toward monopolies? Could it even be that demand, of all things, is actually winnowing the online free market — that Americans, so diverse and individualistic, actually love these monopolies? ... Info-monopolies tend to be good-to-great in the short term and bad-to-terrible in the long term."

342 comments

  1. Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    free market is what tends towards monopolies eventually. because there is competition, and nothing to prevent the big players from getting bigger, unless they make a HUGE mistake, all 'free' markets only function as free for all initial chaos environments until a hierarchy and order is established. as per the below post :

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1847700&cid=34083272

    1. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by icebike · · Score: 1

      Way to pimp your own post...

      But the internet has very low barriers to entry, making it easy for small players like a couple of college kids to go big time (facebook, google, etc).

      The next big thing could arrive any day. We don't know what it is because we are not there yet.

      Ownership of much of the web can not be asserted by monopolies, and the bits that can become irrelevant soon enough.

      That there are big players at any given point in time is no surprise, that most of the start ups fail is no surprise. Its the same for gas stations, dress shops, and Taco stands.

      But yet the come, start their business, succeed or fail based on their concept, efforts, and efficiency.

      As much as the Summary and TFA would like to characterize this as a US issue its nothing of the kind. Its simply economics and competition in the market place. A competition that didn't even exist in many of the places the internet reaches prior to its arrival.

      Yes the big players can Game Google to push their links higher, (for a while anyway) but when the small company's happy customers (or unhappy ones) start tweeting for friending, yelping, or what-ever-is-nexting, it won't matter.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Drasil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. In a dog-eat-dog world you eventually end up with one very fat dog.

    3. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by arivanov · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That _WAS_ the case.

      It took a couple of millions to start a let's say router company 10 years ago. Now you need 100M to just consider it.

      It took a couple of millions to start a network management company 10 years ago. Now you need 30-50M.

      It took a couple of millions to start an ISP 10 years ago. Now you need something on the order of a few 100M.

      The "several guys in the garage making the next big thing" is the norm in any market in the beginning. HP was started in a garage. Apple was started in a garage. You cannot however start a computer company in a garage today. The Internet is quickly approaching that stage. The number of areas where there are still breakthroughs of garage companies is small and decreasing and this is normal for the development of the market.

      --
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    4. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      free market is what tends towards monopolies eventually. because there is competition, and nothing to prevent the big players from getting bigger

      "Free market" means the government does nothing other than police fraud. A perfectly competitive market meets these conditions. They overlap, but you can have a "free" market without it being anywhere close to competitive.

      That aside, is the internet a "free" market? It comes pretty damn close. No one government can regulate more than a corner of it, for fraud or otherwise. It's likely the closest thing to a free market we'll see.

      Is it a "perfectly competitive" market? It comes close here, too. Barriers to entry? Anyone can throw up a website. Transaction costs? Cost of bandwidth. Exit costs? Turn off your modem. Perfect factor mobility? It's why the Pirate Bay hasn't been shut down. But, TFA's premise is something like this:

      • There are Big Companies on the internet.
      • Therefore, "the free market on the Internet actually tends toward monopolies". (Because we know adding on the internet makes something completely unique and different and worthy of a patent.)

      Worse yet is his comparison of Facebook's "monopoly" to AT&T's up until 1984. Any college student can start another Facebook - that was actually a semester project we did in college, and it's exactly what Zukerberg did. The very same college student shut down the previous "monopoly" MySpace and wiped the floor with Google's competing offering. That suggests two things:

      1. Free market "on the internet" isn't any less competitive elsewhere.
      2. Tim Wu is an idiot. Times [no pun intended] must be hard for newspapers.
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    5. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      Sure, but is it necessarily a bad thing? The only problem is that people tend to put too much faith in the one winner and fail to diversify. What you need to do is make sure that you are keeping an eye on these large organizations and hold them accountable for their behavior. And in order to do that, you need to keep and open mind and make sure you have other options than dependance on them. I think maybe I'd better move out to the country and buy a ranch. Get some guns and fortify it in case I need to provide my own defense. Oh great, you just turned me into a nut. Thanks for that.

    6. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Except to compete with google, you need not only as good or better algorythms, as good or better other services (e-mail etc). you need as good or better database too.

      Google has years of peoples habits to make itself much more profitable for an eye than the others (they place ads better). Using their decade of accumulated data they can best a new entry that is better in every way, because the new entry can't gain the traction to get the data google has. In a way this is harder than a high cost for entry, as no amount of money can acquire it.

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    7. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

      If all axes were independent--if every product were judged exactly on its merits, and used only and ever for what it was intended for--big players getting bigger until they reached saturation would in fact be the ideal. But the axes aren't, they're oblique, with a lot of nuances that will drag things in the wrong direction.

      Say you were the first person to invent the hammer, and it swept the market. There's no reason to suspect that, being the hammer king, your product would replace screwdrivers, belt-sanders, hacksaws, or drills. However, if in order to manufacture your first million hammers, you had to contract with a reseller of shop tools, you might make a hard sell and push it as the be-all shop tool that it definitely isn't, and they'd market it like all the world's a nail. So, for no good reason at all, the whole thing would have become incestuous, with ties to other bits of hardware that really have nothing to do with your product. Because of all the hype, most likely lawyers would get involved, especially whenever someone did something that might possibly be a knockoff, because it's nothing but a racket, and they need to nail anyone who might get in the way.

      If instead you just made hammers and sold them, with no stupid third parties there making mountains into molehills into nails in order to sell hammers, then you'd (probably) be rich, and you'd probably keep making new hammers because that's just what you're awesome at, and you'd be recognized forever as the genius hammer-maker, with a TV show called "Hammertime" that everyone is compelled to stop and watch. And people who saw how easy it was would make cheaper knockoffs, but people who saw the quality of your tools would come back, and would stay interested in what you were doing next, and even if someday you're replaced as Mr. Hammer, and go retire to a life running a laundromat, it's still you, and nothing you did was wrong. That's capitalism working.

      I think I may have digressed. It's like I'm hammered, which is funny because I don't drink.

      What were we talking about?

    8. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad that the entire mental jerkoff that this post represent is disproven as easily as pointing to the market value of Zynga compared to the market value of Electronic Arts, and the smoldering corpse of Amiga and Sega by the wayside.

      The problem with presenting a theory that a) doesn't conclude in the ending of the world and b) presumes that some companies will be winners and other losers is that it doesn't allow a third-party viewer to conclude whether today's firms are either one of A) "Permanent Winners of the Dynastic Winner-Loser Process" or "Competitors But Upcoming Losers in the Winner-Loser Process". It is hence a theory that cannot be proven or disproven by observation. It can always explain away observations to prove itself true.

      To demonstrate: When Microsoft was big, a proponent of this theory would have said "Microsoft is the dynastic winner of all time!". Let's say that in five years' time the mobile platform is everything and only losers have desktops. The proponent of the theory will then say: "Apple is the dynastic winner of all time and they have permanently overcome losers such as Microsoft on their way to dynastic victory". Hence although the theory predicts that a company that is a winner will continue to be a winner, it is self-proving in that it allows dynamically and retrospectively to redefine companies as either dynastic winners or dynastic losers.

      In other words, if I rather proclaim: "The world functions such that in the great Land of the Free, any large company will eventually succumb to an upstart created by a clever person and willing financial backers", it would be impossible in any state of the world prove whether his or my theory was the correct one.

    9. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      nothing to prevent the big players from getting bigger,

      This is a really bold statement. To back it up, I mean to really prove your point, you have to completely understand every single dynamic in the market, and how they all work, and verify that nothing prevents the big players from getting bigger.

      Now, I don't claim to know every market dynamic, but I do know there are several that are working against things getting larger. One simple dynamic is the counter-culture, anti-bigness movement. We see it in Converse vs. Nike. Converse has a certain market that Nike will never be able to take; a lot of people buy Converse specifically because they don't like Nike. There's a huge market for people who hate the big guys. The x-games crew. The anti-Walmart crew. etc.

      Along that same line, you have the niche guys. There are a ton of markets that are just too niche for Microsoft to enter. They just don't have the company culture to nurture some groups. Microsoft can buy up, say, Danger, but then it loses its intrinsic motivation. It becomes yet another part of Microsoft, and if it dies off, then so what. And yet there was a strong demand for a sidekick type of phone, which other people have filled.

      Which leads naturally to the next point: large companies are inefficient. They are useful in some ways, they can provide huge capital and resource injections, for example, but the huge bureaucracy has a cost. Often smaller companies can do the same thing in a nimbler manner. This story happens over and over in software, where a huge company makes something that is difficult to use and install, and then some smaller startup makes something that isn't quite as good, but does everything needed and has a smaller cost. Linux would be a perfect example of that, eating the lunch of big iron servers. Ultimately open source always wins on cost, although it may take decades.

      Another dynamic is that it is hard for a company to not make big mistakes over the long term.

      I have no doubt if you think about it, you can find some more dynamics that are pushing to make companies smaller. You clearly have an analytical intellect, you should apply that intellect to both sides of the problem.

      --
      Qxe4
    10. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. It may very well be possible for another college student to overtake Facebook with his own project. But that just replaces one monopoly with another. At the moment, it's highly unlikely that there will be multiple social network services which compete while being compatible with each other (for example that Facebook users could add MySpace users as friends on Facebook and vice versa). THAT is the point. The Internet of today is still stuck in the "winner takes all" mentality which seriously hinders both competition and innovation.

    11. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true for big players that do not embrace a competitive market; that have, as their goal, to become a monopoly. If the company supports an open, competitive market, then it breaks itself into smaller competing pieces once it's achieved market dominance.
      Additionally, the establishment of an abused monopoly engenders a competitive element from outside their market niche on their market niche - say, technological change that fundamentally undermines their position.
      The monopoly also promotes the establishment of another system that functions outside of their sphere of control. A barter system, say, or counterfeit copies sold through an independent distribution system. While a free market may bias, over a very long period of time, toward a monopoly, it is only in a stagnant economy that a purposeful monopoly will gain and hold its position.

    12. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You also have to compete with muscle memory and browser settings. Even for those that want to switch over, it takes some determination as one tends to go back to whatever it is that one was doing.

    13. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      Way to pimp your own post...

      yes. instead, we should type everything over and over again, for any fresh out of college, indoctrinated youngster that comes into slashdot and blabbers some 'ayn rand'.

      But the internet has very low barriers to entry, making it easy for small players like a couple of college kids to go big time (facebook, google, etc).

      internet HAD low barriers to entry, they are higher, and getting higher every day.

      The next big thing could arrive any day. We don't know what it is because we are not there yet.

      yeah, and this is the only phase where capitalism works - a new land rush. its not a stable system. it requires constant land rushes. and after every land rush, it reverts back to feudalism. so, the only ones who are enjoying the system are those on top, and the ones that can join a land rush, which are always a minority. in every land rush there are more losers than a winner.

      quit living in the dream world.

    14. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Social networks have strong economies of scale - they're only useful if your friends are likely to be on it, and only large ones are likely to have your friends. This isn't true for the internet as a whole that right now supports oodles of competing search engines, commerce sites, news outlets, and blags.

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      DATABASE WOW WOW
    15. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read your post and saw this:

      the bottom 80%, ie basically 240 million people or so, gets only 15%. that is, HALF of what medieval peasants got from the economy.

      So you think you'd be getting a better deal as a medieval peasant? I'm in that "bottom 80%" and there's no way I'm going to get resentful enough of somebody's billions to be willing to live as a medieval peasant to settle the score.

      Your proportion of total wealth matters very little, it's the lifestyle you can enjoy that counts. Is it injustice that poor people can't get the medical treatment that the rich can afford? Maybe, but the medical treatment available to the "bottom 80%" is still far superior to the medieval peasants with their whopping 33%.

    16. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by icebike · · Score: 1

      Way to pimp your own post...

      yes. instead, we should type everything over and over again, for any fresh out of college, indoctrinated youngster that comes into slashdot and blabbers some 'ayn rand'.

      Fresh out of college. Heh! You weren't even born back then sonny.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    17. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      there is no difference in between your lifestyle vs the civilization standards of this day, and the life of a medieval peasant vs civilization standards of that day. that is because every kind of 'freedom' in the society you live, is basically tied to money. you can enjoy your freedoms only as much as you have your money.

      just like how the medieval peasants couldnt afford to go to a university city to see a real physician then, you cannot afford to go to switzerland to get treated by the best. start from this apex point, and go to the lowest point, and you will see that the amenities offered to you compared to the state of civilization havent changed, actually deteriorated since middle ages. in middle ages at least there was the guarantee of food and livelihood.

    18. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by BeanThere · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Something I've come to see and realize over the years (yeah I'm getting a little older) is that as long as the market is free, there will always be competition. Always. No matter how big, no matter how dominant a company might seem, there is always some other equally big and successful company - usually in a slightly different market and looking for new opportunities.

      And they are particularly attracted when a market has "fat" in it - which is usually the case when de facto cartels or monopolies have formed. But even in low-margin businesses, it remains the case. People are always scared that some big company is going to take over everything. The free market can seem 'scary' in that regard - but isn't.

      Competition acts a bit slower than we'd usually like, but it always acts.

      I find the article a bit ridiculous actually, and its basic premises are completely false ... the author claims there is monopoly domination, and proceeds to "prove" this by giving a long list of all strong companies that compete with one another, some fiercely. Apple, Google, Microsoft, all fierce competitors, all quite capable of providing similar services to the others. And the very existence of both Google and Facebook ARE textbook cases of how the Internet has allowed one or two 'garage coders' to become billionaires and compete with the other major players practically overnight. Apple, also started in a garage in the first place, was also almost dead very recently, and re-started itself afresh. These companies are proof of how incredibly competitive the industry is, and how easy it is for new small players to get in and grow.

      Facebook had competition even when it launched, from services like MySpace and Friendster, both still going, and would step in in a minute. Google Buzz is another potential competitor to Facebook. They are everywhere. If Facebook disappeared, users would simply migrate to another service.

    19. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      The number of areas where there are still breakthroughs of garage companies is small and decreasing

      Citation needed. I'm honestly curious how you back that up. Google was also started by 'just a couple of guys' and was founded just 12 years ago, taking off like a rocket right through the dot-com bust. Facebook was started by 'basically one dude coding away' only 6 years ago. Twitter is just four years old and was started by basically just one dude, and was pretty damn simple. And Farmville, wtf, could've been started by *anyone*.

      Presumably sometime there will be a drop-off in this kind of opportunity, but it definitely hasn't started yet.

      I suppose at each stage people make the claim "OK that's it now, that was the last such opportunity" ... until someone else comes up with a great idea and is able to follow it through.

    20. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Economics 101 says the top 3 will have 80%+ of the market. That theory still looks good.

      But this being able to buy/dropship out of China is a game changer that breaks many theories. It is always assumed a domestic market is 'protected', but the US is bad when it comes to website exporting (decision to stop by-sea postage) to support air-freight will change a few things

      A couple of more reasons:

      1) Money/Credit
      2) Lawyers have their nose in it - patent this patent that
      3) Everyone wants a common interface - but you are not allowed to just rip
      4) Payment systems
      5) Warehouse and postage
      6) State licencing
      7) Money to make your product 100% reliable
      8) Everyone wants lots of choice - So WalMart's breed

      Putting all BS behind us, it is to charge customers MORE, and to stop potential customers from buying cheaper substitutes - or knowing where to look.

      Margins have slashed to the bone - and the number of people who can get away charging too much, see people junking the product (waste) and buying foreign made.

      Globalization is about lowering our living standards to others. Low skilled jobs were the first to go, and now the middle class see the blowtorch.

    21. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      Something I've come to see and realize over the years (yeah I'm getting a little older) is that as long as the market is free, there will always be competition. Always. No matter how big, no matter how dominant a company might seem, there is always some other equally big and successful company - usually in a slightly different market and looking for new opportunities.

      illusion ... after the regulations that were brought at the start of century to prevent monopolies, private interests found other ways to go round the regulations.

      the most widely used way is establishing a huge network of subsidiaries, holdings, proxy companies, shareholders, owners. through that, it is even possible to make a national government unable to track who owns what, if you factor in the international holdings.

      even in this state, one can easily gleam that a lot of industries are dominated by a few companies at the bottom. procter&gamble for instance. you will find that innumerable 'brands' that are sold, are actually owned by or buying their cleaning chemicals from procter&gamble. so goes for a lot of other big companies.

      competition is balooney. you can only compete if you are in a new field, or, if you have competing power, or if you are protected (by government or other sources). else, they either clamp you down, or buy you out, or subdue you, or place you in your proper place in food chain.

      you havent read the discussion, some people came up with your arguments, and some people replied and elaborated how google and facebook fit into the picture.

      how many googles came up recently ? how many facebooks ? how many apples have been built in a garage ?

      ALL these corporations got out only when the field was fresh. its as simple as that. that may be search field, that may be social networking, this, or that. now, you wont be able to set up a facebook in your garage. leave aside a google. and even with that, you can only name five companies, which are totally dominating their areas as of now, and trying to dominate other fields, and even industries out of i.t.

      and these are the startups by the way. not even factoring in existing behemoths that are trying to subdue all from outside.

      no, its just make believe. if you force yourself to believe, you can. but, you wont be starting up a google anytime soon.

    22. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      In a dog-eat-dog world you eventually end up with one very fat dog.

      Excellent sig material right there!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    23. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has enough market power to be a dynastic winner of all time. Any upstart trying to crush it in conventional competition would need similar amount of funds as Microsoft has now. That's simply not going to happen. But. Microsoft is not going to be a dynastic winner of all time for two reasons: 1) Main Microsoft products have reached their peak potential and there's very little left to make users pay for new versions. All that new versions offer are mostly prettier interfaces which do the same as the previous ones. 2) Microsoft's strategy of vendor lock-up has backfired and they've managed to create version lock-up instead. Many big customers are stuck with systems that require specific versions of Microsoft products, particularly IE6. Those customers are going to stick to the old versions as long as they can and then a bit longer.

      Microsoft is going to fail. They won't be taken down by some clever upstart but by their own mistakes. This is not a victory of free market but a mixture of bad decisions and general incompetence. And if you look at non-artificial monopolies of the past, you'll notice that all of them either failed due to bad decisions and general incompetence, or they were forced to split up by government.

    24. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      The Marxist "monopoly capitalism" argument is no more true now than it was in Marx's time. True monopolies only exist when backed by the government. (Microsoft was never a monopoly, and neither was Standard Oil.)

    25. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Glendale2x · · Score: 1

      Except to compete with google, you need not only as good or better algorythms, as good or better other services (e-mail etc). you need as good or better database too.

      And you have to offer it for free: that's the expectation now.

      --
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    26. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by tabdelgawad · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of venture capital? In a normal economy (perhaps not right now!) a garage company with a proven idea and a serious business plan would have no trouble raising the necessary millions to grow.

      --
      Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
    27. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big company is like a country with a centrally planned economy - it becomes inefficient (because of dispersion of knowledge) and eventually crumble. It is the reason why big companies try so hard to win a government protection. If power of their money was enough to stay on top they would not bother.

    28. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if one had an ISP with unlimited funds, it likely would not succeed? Why? There is only one company that gets phone line right of way, and one company that gets cable. Wireless is similar -- the bands are all owned. An ISP can't get subscribers unless it can get a last mile link, and the existing powers that be have that well locked down barring a pro-regulation government (not going to happen), or IP over power lines actually becomes workable, then they will scramble their lobbyists to prevent that from occurring... or just buy critical patents for that technology and sit on them for the patent's lifetime.

      What will happen with most startups is that once they get to a certain size, a bigger company will buy them out.

      Facebook is an exception. The reason why Facebook took off is because it got a lot of capital from VC guys -- capital that allowed them to throw developers to make a robust backend application that handles all the redundancy, not lets the lower levels of the stack [1] handle that. Facebook is also in a market where the accountholders are fickle. Right now, FB may be the social network, but one never knows -- something else can come along that is cooler and causes everyone to leave FB like they did MySpace.

      [1]: One can argue what is better, but perhaps just going with a mainframe solution and letting the hardware handle the uptime aspect might have been a better call than handling everything in the app layer, and paying for the umpteen developers to make that work.

    29. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I suppose at each stage people make the claim "OK that's it now, that was the last such opportunity" ... until someone else comes up with a great idea and is able to follow it through.

      The problem is that you're still stuck with the old players - i.e. the monopolies - controlling their respective "old ideas"; and we still need those!

      You mention Google as one of your examples, but look at it - it's not like people can avoid using a search engine of the Net, and the barrier of entry today is such that a huge corporation like Microsoft uses up significant chunk of its resources, and still fails come even close in market share. Neither Facebook nor Twitter have changed that in the slightest; they have just added new fields, and became monopolists in them.

    30. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Something I've come to see and realize over the years (yeah I'm getting a little older) is that as long as the market is free, there will always be competition. Always. No matter how big, no matter how dominant a company might seem, there is always some other equally big and successful company - usually in a slightly different market and looking for new opportunities.

      The example I like to use in refutation of this is agriculture. Assume for a moment a world without antitrust laws. The most successful agribusiness corporation decides that it should reinvest all of its profits into buying more farmland, if necessary by buying its competitors outright. Some number of years later it owns all the arable farmland. All. As in people are planning to knock down buildings in order to have a place to start a small farm to compete with them, except that every time they do, the company offers them five times the value of the land so they can keep their monopoly.

      How is that monopoly, once established, ever going to end without government intervention?

      And it's hardly limited to farmland. Any time government grants a property right in a scarce resource, that is the long-term consequence: Land, wireless spectrum, copyright, patents, it doesn't matter. Someone with enough money can buy up all of the resources and use the government-granted monopoly on the resource as a cash cow and leverage market dominance into other industries.

      Look at the wireless industry: A few major companies own all the spectrum allocated for consumer wireless. When more goes up for auction, the incumbents buy all of it -- and right now we're at a point when spectrum is being reallocated. Once it's gone, it's gone; at least as long as the government doesn't intervene by revoking their licenses. No opportunity would be left for a new wireless company. And so the oligopolists do their thing: Discouraging unlocked phones, preventing use of 802.11 to make VOIP phone calls, mandatory updates, you can't have root on your own phone and if you do you're a criminal, etc.

      The trouble is that if a resource is scarce and treated as property, sooner or later a single entity will attempt and succeed at buying all of it. And that situation, once reached, is exceptionally stable. Having a monopoly on a resource raises its value to the monopolist since it allows monopoly prices to be charged, which means the monopolist never has an incentive to sell part of the resource to a prospective competitor.

      And antitrust as it is today isn't much more than a band aid. It stops AT&T from merging with Verizon, but it doesn't allow a third party to start a new wireless carrier once all the spectrum is allocated to the incumbents.

      But the "monopolies" from TFA are different: They aren't property-based monopolies, they're network effects-based. In theory those work more like what you're imagining -- especially if the government doesn't "interfere" by allowing e.g. Facebook to sue someone who copies all of the data out of a user's Facebook account with the user's permission and imports it into a competing service, or by granting thousands of stupid patents that allow incumbents to sue anyone who makes any competing products whatsoever. Not that we're so lucky.

    31. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      yes. and where does that bullshit come from ? fox news ?

      do you actually know ANYthing about history, to make that claim. prove your point. there is a spectacular case of monopolies occurring naturally without any government interference in history. but i doubt you will even be able to guess what it is or when it was.

    32. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      The anti-bigness movement is usually too small to pose any threat to market dominance. So are the niche markets. Tiny upstarts can fill the niche markets but the big corporation has lots of options how to keep them from becoming a real competition. Big corporations can collapse due to internal incompetence and bad decisions but that's a failure on the inside. That's not a result of market forces at all. If the big corporation gets big enough, there's no longer any way to bring it down from the outside as long as the corporation is willing to abuse their market power to keep any competition too small.

    33. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Oh yes, I have.

      I have worked in all of the three - a startup in a greenfield, an incumbent and a startup challenging the incumbents on own turf.

      The problem with VC capital is that the maximum first round you can rely on is under 30M. In most industries it is under 10M. With that you can prepare an alpha-level prototype in a greenfield and launch a service similarly in a greenfield. If you are successful you can apply for second and sometimes third round.

      This model stops working once the incumbent players become sufficiently established. Then the barrier to entry costs exceeds the maximum amount VCs can offer.

      Going back to my example - you cannot get the VC money to establish a router company today. Even if Vint Cerf, Tony Lee, Kireeti Kompella and Luca Martini decide to create a router startup today, they will not be given more than the maximum VCs are willing to offer on a first round. As a result new Cisco or new Juniper is simply no longer on the cards. The last several companies trying to build products in this area failed because they did not manage to get enough funding from VCs to get to a working product. Same for ISPs, same for telcos, etc.

      That does not mean that the incumbents in these fields do not go unchallenged. They surely are regularly challenged, but by players in other fields making an entry to challenge the incumbents. These use 100s of millions for initial entry, however none of that will go to two guys in a garage. Never. Not a chance in hell. In that case it goes to an established management team (quite often internal one).

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    34. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Is it a "perfectly competitive" market? It comes close here, too. Barriers to entry? Anyone can throw up a website. Transaction costs? Cost of bandwidth. Exit costs? Turn off your modem. Perfect factor mobility? It's why the Pirate Bay hasn't been shut down.

      Yeah, the article is idiotic. For 'monopolies', I sure seem to use a lot of competitors.

      I mean, I've bought exactly two things on Amazon, and one on eBay, my entire life. And yet I do buy stuff online...I just buy from BN.com for books, and directly from places for other stuff.

      Those are just large online business. It's like calling Walmart a monopoly. Even the people who dislike Walmart, and claim they're harmful for a community, and I'm one of those (Although more from how they treat employees than their business practices) have to admit they aren't a monopoly. Their economics of scales might harm other businesses, but it's not due to 'monopoly', it's due to volume. And the same for Amazon and eBay.

      Twitter doesn't appear to make any money from me at all, so I'm not really understanding how it's a 'monopoly', or even a functional business. That's like claiming 'air' is a monopoly. Seriously, someone explain how they're supposed to make money? Even the website, which no one uses anyway, has no ads. I've paid a third party more for an iPhone app to do twitter than the actual Twitter people have ever made off me.

      And Skype isn't really an 'internet company'. It's a telecom. It's making money as a cheaper, less convenient version of Vonage. It also has a ton of free users, but, again, providing free services that no one makes money from is not really a 'monopoly'...it's just a loss leader for their for-sell services.

      Google just appears to have really good PR and affiliate programs. As did Yahoo, as did Alta Vista. Bing's 'failure' is just MS having vaguely incompetent PR. (And being very careful to keep from using their monopoly in software so they don't get slapped by the courts, so they're more cautious about 'bundling' than Google has to be.)

      The only thing with any barrier to entry, due to the network effect, is Facebook. And there's absolutely no reason that people wouldn't use multiple social networking sites, especially considering there are programs to manages multiple ones at once.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    35. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Why would they need to be 'compatible' with each other?

      You want to use multiple services at one, you simply use a program designed to do that, like Yoono.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    36. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      And if you look at non-artificial monopolies of the past, you'll notice that all of them either failed due to bad decisions and general incompetence, or they were forced to split up by government.

      Yes, and all marriages end in either divorce or death.

      What exactly were you saying? 'Of all monopolies that have ceased to exist, all of them either died naturally or were killed by the government.'? Well, yeah...there's not actually another way for a corporation to cease to exist.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    37. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      I don't care so much about established hierarchies as long as they deliver what needs to be delivered. That is what the free market does. Competition for the sake of competition has a little point.
      What a free market does is force established players to either adapt to new technologies and circumstances, or new entries will take over.

      The tech sector is actually a great example.

      Microsoft refused to adapt to the internet even though it had such a large part of the OS market.
      Hence, it made way for Google to become a company...and we see where it is now.

      Microsoft refused to adapter to the mobile market.
      Hence it made way for RIM, and Apple.

      The free market functions continuously. Technology and circumstances are always changing. The fact that some big companies manage to stick around and stay big is fine with me. The free market makes sure they keep delivering or die.
      This of course as opposed to state run economies where if an organization stops delivering... who cares... they still get government funding.

    38. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Wrong. I'm saying that of all monopolies that have ceased to exist, all of them either collapsed due to internal incompetence and bad decisions, or they were killed by government. None of them was taken down from outside by competitors who came to the respective part of market while they were still significantly smaller than the monopoly.

      There are two ways a company can die naturally. It can be either crushed by competitors who push it out of market, or it can collapse on its own with competitors merely filling the void afterwards. Only the first way can be attributed to forces of free market. And what I'm saying is that the first way never happens unless the competitors are already about the same size as the monopoly in question.

    39. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If the big corporation gets big enough, there's no longer any way to bring it down from the outside as long as the corporation is willing to abuse their market power to keep any competition too small.

      This is a statement of opinion.

      --
      Qxe4
    40. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      I don't care so much about established hierarchies as long as they deliver what needs to be delivered

      logically. however :

      That is what the free market does. Competition for the sake of competition has a little point. What a free market does is force established players to either adapt to new technologies and circumstances, or new entries will take over.

      it breaks down at that part. competition is supposedly THE thing that should make free market a reality, and make it work with all the mechanisms you speak of. but, with immense hierarchies established, those on top can weer away anything in any way they like. this includes emerging technology. you are seeing attacks against internet in the form of anti net neutrality, or attack against all kinds of thought products in the form of acta and patents.

      that is the eventual catastrophe of a 'free' market. eventually, the established hierarchies will turn everything in their favor. competition is the first to go, due to the immense power of the hierarchy. after that, various liberties and freedoms that endanger the hierarchy come - upstarts like us, the tech sector.

      tech sector is not an example of anything. it has been an anomaly, at its start. it was unprecedented and it was way too free. but, as you see, even it is being tamed and subdued. and it didnt even take 15 years.

    41. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Because that's the inevitable future of all network services affected by the snowball effect.

    42. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      do you actually know ANYthing about history, to make that claim. prove your point.

      I already gave Microsoft and Standard Oil as examples that are widely claimed to have been "monopolies", but weren't. Microsoft's great crime against humanity was giving away a browser for free, and Standard Oil's atrocity was cutting prices because of their more efficient refining technology. Standard Oil never had monopoly pricing power.

      there is a spectacular case of monopolies occurring naturally without any government interference in history.

      So give us some examples.

    43. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      But yet the come, start their business, succeed or fail based on their concept, efforts, and efficiency.

      Businesses succeed or fail based on their ability to get backing from the investment classes. Much of that ability has little to do with concept, efforts, and efficiency; it has instead to do with dumb luck and shameless gaming of the system.

      Microsoft, for example, got big by buying stolen ideas, riding IBM's coattails, exploiting Billy Boy's Harvard connections, and then once they got big enough, ruthlessly gaming the system in the ways we all know and love. Hell, Billy started his business career by lying to MITS about having writen a BASIC interpreter for the Altair 8800.

      Yes the big players can Game Google to push their links higher, (for a while anyway) but when the small company's happy customers (or unhappy ones) start tweeting for friending, yelping, or what-ever-is-nexting, it won't matter.

      And then the big players start gaming Twitter, Facebook, or whatever is next.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    44. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      I already gave Microsoft and Standard Oil as examples that are widely claimed to have been "monopolies", but weren't. Microsoft's great crime against humanity was giving away a browser for free, and Standard Oil's atrocity was cutting prices because of their more efficient refining technology. Standard Oil never had monopoly pricing power.

      so basically you really dont know shit about history. the above examples wouldnt be able to be used for any discussion on fundamentals of eventual monopoly creation from free markets, because both of them are companies from post-regulation era. they are monopolies, or oligopolies DESPITE being companies of the post-regulation era in addition too. still, they cant be used as examples to anything because the conditions for argument in regard to free market is not present in post-regulation era.

      So give us some examples.

      why dont you do some research ? instead of using half assed knowledge from politically charged sources and advocates ?

      you can start by googling 'robber baron'.

    45. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Exactly, that was my point.

      You can't give it away for free without the better database, and no amount of money can get you that.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    46. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      so basically you really dont know shit about history. the above examples wouldnt be able to be used for any discussion on fundamentals of eventual monopoly creation from free markets, because both of them are companies from post-regulation era. they are monopolies, or oligopolies DESPITE being companies of the post-regulation era in addition too. still, they cant be used as examples to anything because the conditions for argument in regard to free market is not present in post-regulation era.

      Standard Oil allegedly became a "monopoly" years before antitrust regulation was law, and is often used as the textbook example of "monopoly".

      why dont you do some research ? instead of using half assed knowledge from politically charged sources and advocates ?

      you can start by googling 'robber baron'.

      The list of "robber barons" on Wikipedia includes very few alleged "monopolists", at least according to the biographies of the ones I clicked on.

    47. Re:Its not 'internet'. its 'free market'. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      Standard Oil allegedly became a "monopoly" years before antitrust regulation was law, and is often used as the textbook example of "monopoly".

      oligopoly, monopoly, they all end up the same from the respect of people. it doesnt matter whether 4 oil companies dominate market, or 1. they will act in lockstep as a cartel, even without talking and seeing each other. they will fix prices autonomously. your approach is way too narrow to this matter. you are seeing it from the window of 'one single company'. its not about one single company, or one single person. its about a control existing on any given market, moreover, more than one market, and industry.

      like how despite the production costs of a lot of items have decreased to cents due to outsourcing in china, the prices in western countries have generally remained the same, or with little reductions. the corporations dominating those markets think people should pay those prices. and not one single one of them starts drastically reducing their prices and outcompeting all others - only minor companies which wouldnt affect things at all.

      if situation is disturbed, controllers get aggressive - just like in the case of music, media and movie cartels. they still insist everyone should pay $15 a pop to a single cd, despite all the costs relevant to production of that music cd, have plummeted down to near zero vicinity. yea, including the cost of the artist - with the contracts they are making to artists, they already pay dimes to them, and have them make their pay for themselves through concerts. with recent 'loan' schemes, artists even come up in debt to the studio when they contract, for a long time.

      worldwide, 4 companies are controlling music/media market. through innumerable subsidiaries.

      this example can be taken and applied to any sector. this is a problematic sector because the controlling interests are at the position of losing their hold on the market, and market dictating them the prices. and all the stampede ensues from that.

      The list of "robber barons" on Wikipedia includes very few alleged "monopolists", at least according to the biographies of the ones I clicked on.

      no monopolist accepts the title of monopolizer. its dangerous. moreover, more than the total control of one single industry (3 to 4 of them were fighting against other in each of those industries), what matters is, again, the control of that aspect of life.

      if there are 4 entities controlling something, it means, that sector is controlled by 4 entities. period. there isnt anything more than this. those people, aside from controlling all such sectors in 3 to 4 person lots, depending on their investments, were also starting to get ahold of other fields aside from their initial investments and interests. the rate of things were going was that, things would consolidate from 10-15 people, to approx 4 people, in ALL sectors combined, because 4 of them were powerful than others in regard to most respects. this was what prompted the anti trust regulations.

      if they werent there, usa would indeed end up at the ownership of 4 surnames.

      what antitrust regulations have changed has been that, its now impossible to totally control a sector with just one name, one company. you get sued. however, the method of intricate web of shareholderships, partnerships, proxy corporations, holdings inside and outside a country have evolved to circumvent these. now, if one looks at a given sector, s/he would get a picture as if there are 3-4 companies dominating it (which is actually accepted as normal, somehow, despite being totally contradictory to antitrust concept), with innumerable smaller companies being active in smaller scales. but, when one digs down, s/he sees that aside from the total policy/price setting of those 4 major companies, almost all the smaller company networks are either controlled, owned, or shared in between various conglomerates and holdings which actually link t

  2. money by think_nix · · Score: 1

    imho its all about the money. Look at things now compared to say 5 or even 10 years ago. Most small companies are bought up by a larger competitor, just to make sure they get there hands on whatever tech it is they are developing. Or another company is sued by another for some copyright or patent infringement just to make a buck. No real new 'big' fish are coming to light with something new cool and innovative, if so very slowly, as the big boys try to make sure they stay on top and squash that competition.

  3. Interwhat? by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

    Could it be that the free market on the Internet actually tends toward monopolies?

    Free markets lead to successful companies. This is the same as in any other industry. Yes, the internet makes it very easy to just 'go with the flow' and follow the leader in a specific category but new companies and new leaders emerge regularly.

    Just like with every other industry, if you sit back and watch it go by you'll see companies come and go. If you want to change things you've got to participate. The next "big thing" is in someone's basement or garage or spare room right now.

  4. Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolies by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft's Bing, launched last year by a giant with $40 billion in cash on hand, has captured a mere 3.25% of query volume

    Apparently, according to the author, MS's failure in search is purely down to Google's monopoly and completely unrelated to the fact that MS has in the past chosen to skew search results and hence proven itself to be an untrustworthy search provider? The "$40B cash on hand" number is meaningless, because MS hasn't chosen to spend $40B on entering the search market. Perhaps the difference is simply that Google has been able to develop and maintain a better product?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  5. How hard? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How hard would it be to go a week without Google? Or, to up the ante, without Facebook, Amazon, Skype, Twitter, Apple, eBay and Google?

    Pretty fucking easy, actually. My God what are we becoming when people think this shit is so important?

    Back in my day (well, ok, my grandfather's) we worried about important shit like steel, or oil. Hell, even telephone wire - it's physical, someone owns it, and they control it completely. Those are monopolies - you're strangled by one provider.

    Facebook? Apple? Amazon? Give me a fucking break. Oh noesies, I can't go read about something cute one of some guy I barely know's brat kids did! Oh no, I have to buy a less expensive version that functions just as well of some gadget I don't need! Uh oh, I have to walk my fat ass to Target or order from one of the other billion internet stores!

    Author makes common mistake of confusing a monopoly with most successful provider of something that one could, if one wanted, get from 20 other places.

    1. Re:How hard? by catbutt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue has little to do with how "necessary" or "important" the service is. Ok, so you can survive without facebook, as can I. So? What does that have to do with anything?

      Regardless, the difference here is that, with the internet vs. "physical things", network effects are in full play. Just as Ma Bell had a network monopoly (who's going to sign up for Joe's Phone Company when they can't call anyone because everyone else is on the Bell System?), and Microsoft had/has a certain sort of monopoly (who's going to get an alternative operating system when most of the apps they want to run are Windows-only, and who's going to write an app for that alternative operating system when most of the users are on Windows?)

      How is that true with steel or oil? It's a lot harder for someone to control all steel production. Possible, I suppose, but a lot harder. Eventually, everything tends toward monopoly if you don't have antitrust law being enforced, but with "network" sorts of things (which includes things like proprietary API's), the situation is a lot more pronounced.

    2. Re:How hard? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The only two I've ever use of that list are Skype and Google.
      To go without Skype is easy: Just use your phone.
      Google, I definitely would miss. But it's not something I couldn't live without. Indeed, I did live without it for quite some time. Indeed, I still remember when someone told me there's a new program called "xmosaic" installed on the university computers, but he can't find out what it's for; it just gives a grey window ...

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:How hard? by gutnor · · Score: 1
      Wait until the day after the day net neutrality has gone away and the only way to access the internet at a comfortable speed will be using the service of those monopolies.

      In the meanwhile, once Microsoft abandon Bing - what will index the internet, apart from Google ? Internet is growing fast, and it takes colossal amount of money to index a fraction of it. And that is without Google trying to something evil about its monopoly: exclusive indexing in exchange for better ads rate (I know a few companies that would kill for that kind of deal), Google-only access through paywal, ...

      Facebook, nowadays it is optional, something you do at home. However, I remember that only 10 years ago, I did not have internet at work, and I worked in IT - let's talk about that 10 years from now.

    4. Re:How hard? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      How hard would it be to go a week without Google? Or, to up the ante, without Facebook, Amazon, Skype, Twitter, Apple, eBay and Google?

      Pretty fucking easy, actually. My God what are we becoming when people think this shit is so important?

      Some of us own or work for businesses that would not exist if it weren't for those services. Here's one example:

      I know a guy who works as a consultant, he's the "guru" companies bring in when they realize that treating all of their employees like "cogs on a wheel" means they don't have any experts who understand both the minutiae and the big picture. He swears that over the last decade the kind of work he actually does has turned into excessive use of google-fu. Half the time he's looking up stuff with google and the other half of the time he's explaining it to the people who have hired him. Clearly its useful to his clients else they would not keep hiring him and he is good at it because he already has tons of domain knowledge.

      Whatever the reason, his livelihood is significantly dependent on google. If he personally lost access to google, the value he provides his clients would significantly diminish. If the entire world lost access to google, there would be a significant productivity crash.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:How hard? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Ahh, you think Google is the only search engine out there. How quaint.

    6. Re:How hard? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Ahh, you think Google is the only search engine out there. How quaint.

      Ah, you think "steel" and "oil" only come from one company. How consistent.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    7. Re:How hard? by S77IM · · Score: 2

      Author makes common mistake of confusing a monopoly with most successful provider of something that one could, if one wanted, get from 20 other places.

      You (and many of the other posters on this thread) have missed a key point:
      The value of a network is proportional to the number of people using it.

      This is easiest to see in the case of sites like Facebook. Sure, you could use a competitor, but if none of your friends are on it, what would be the point? If your peeps do all their communication through Facebook, and you want to get their updates, you need to use the Facebook. It's less clear-cut with sites like Google. I mean, you could use Bing for search, or Yahoo!. But what about ads? If you want to advertise, or host ads on your site, the sheer size of Google's ad network makes it more attractive than any competitor.

      This is what TFA author was getting at with his analogies to things like the telegraph networks and phone networks. Just because Facebook or Google doesn't own the actual fiber (oh wait, they are a tier 1 provider and own a ton of fiber) doesn't mean they don't have anything of value. They have the network of users -- a "critical mass" of participants that will make it hard for competitors to break into the market.

      The nice thing, is that there could be a technological solution to this. Aggregation. Remember when you had like 3-4 different IM clients? Then multi-protocol clients like Trillian came out and suddenly network didn't matter any more. For ads there are already options like this. Let's just hope somebody can wrapper Facebook soon.

        -- 77IM

      --
      Student: Is it true that the foundation of the universe is paradox?
      Master: Well, yes and no.
    8. Re:How hard? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I'd recommend trying it. Google isn't anywhere near as far ahead of the competition as folks believe. They've got a tenuous lead over the competition built primarily on having more hardware and more mindshare than the competition. I've just switched over to duckduckgo as an experiment and so far it seems to be doing at least as well as Google has been.

    9. Re:How hard? by kaladorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whereas I agree we can survive without social networking and entertainment products, I'm not sure Internet search is so easily dispensed with.

      Certainly, my job as a software developer would become approximately 5x more inefficient - the Internet is a treasure trove of problem solutions and basic and advanced reference information that is easily located.

      In the old days (which I still remember), I'd have to order (often sight unseen) a bunch of books and hope they had the reference material I needed in them and I'd possibly have had to spend significant time resolving problems others had solved (but I had no easy access to their solutions).

      Fast Internet search with much useful information available freely is a huge mulitplier to productivity in my work.

      Many people use the internet for productive purposes, both at work and in their personal lives (finding out about government services, locating services more effectively than a phonebook, getting directions to places without having to go out and find and buy a map, filing forms online, doing research, etc). Remove that and you make peoples' personal and work lives in many cases far less efficient. That has a clear cost in terms of productivity, dollars, and time.

      I remember the early days of the Net. I remember how limited the information available was and the challenges of trying to locate the information that was there in a format that was useful. I also remmeber some of the early balkanization of the corporate parts of the Internet... Compuserve wasn't exactly cheap back in the day, as one very trivial example. Access was expensive and it took a long time to locate and longer to acquire useful information.

      Google, when it came along and put the smackdown on the other search companies which, in their day, had been big steps forward, created a net productivity gain for pretty much anyone whose job requires finding things out in a fast and efficient manner. Unsurprisingly, this spills over into people's private lives as well.

      So, as much as your comment is far on social networking and entertainment, it is blatant tripe when it comes to fast, broad Internet search. Yes, we would not immediately keel over dead if we didn't have it, but make no mistake, it would cost our economy tens or hundreds of millions of dollars *per day*. That's a serious impact.

      --
      -- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
    10. Re:How hard? by SEE · · Score: 1

      How hard would it be to go a week without Google? Or, to up the ante, without Facebook, Amazon, Skype, Twitter, Apple, eBay and Google?

      Pretty fucking easy, actually

      Yeah. Running down the list, there's only one of those I've used this week. That one is Google, and the only tricky bit there would be switching from GMail back to Thunderbird (or to Yahoo or Hotmail or something). A pain in the ass for a one-week switch, but pretty damn easy if I were doing it permanently.

    11. Re:How hard? by SEE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yahoo!, Bing, Ask, etc. are all still out there. Not quite as good as Google, but serviceable. The only way Google can keep its market share is by continuing to be better, because it's trivial to switch. There's no monopoly lock-in.

    12. Re:How hard? by SEE · · Score: 1

      Wasn't that hard for J.P Morgan.

    13. Re:How hard? by Sirusjr · · Score: 1

      Well actually online stores are the exclusive way to purchase some sorts of goods now. I could certainly do without Amazon though because I have specialty stores for different things. Want to buy new metal? Why go to amazon when I can buy it from CDINZANE. Want to buy some new soundtracks, buy direct from the label or through screen archives entertainment. I would have a hell of a time finding the music I want in stores whether I go to best buy or barnes and noble and if they did stock it they would charge a hell of a lot more for it.

    14. Re:How hard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > How hard would it be to go a week without Google? Or, to up the ante, without Facebook, Amazon, Skype, Twitter, Apple, eBay and Google?

      God, that is one of THE most pathetic things I've ever read. Is your life really that meaningless?

    15. Re:How hard? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't seem to have a counterpart to Google Scholar. Which for me is more important than regular Google search.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    16. Re:How hard? by PingSpike · · Score: 1

      That is more or less what I thought when I read this. The top dog using money to get legislation designed to destroy competition and buying out smaller competitors is nothing new. But why should I be particularly concerned about something like an internet search provider, an arena with a ridiculously small barrier to entry? Hell, they're dead last on the list IMO.

    17. Re:How hard? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      They have the network of users -- a "critical mass" of participants that will make it hard for competitors to break into the market.

      Except social networking companies don't have it in the other direction, because they aren't charging money, and hence there's no barrier to users simply using multiple sites. A network effect is when customers have to choose one company, and pick the one that everyone else uses because that is helpful, like how people choose cell phone companies to get free calls.

      But 'customers' aren't paying 'per site', they're paying in ad views and it's entirely transparent to the customer.

      Network effect only helps where it costs customers 'more' to use two providers instead of one. Using two social networking sites is only minutely more 'expensive' than using one. The network effect is trivial...you can use the magical new social networking startup and Facebook at the same time and it only costs a bit more time.

      Let's just hope somebody can wrapper Facebook soon.

      Uh, you mean like Yoono? Puts myspace, facebook, linkedin, twitter, all in one interface.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    18. Re:How hard? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Oh come on. You're going to make me waste valuable wrist and finger energy to post that Standard Oil and US Steel were absolutely nothing like Google, and that you can get the same god damn information from Bing, Yahoo, or other places? Google has a stranglehold on nothing.

    19. Re:How hard? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, You're going to make we waste valuable wrist and finger energy to post that I was talking about the functionality and not the company? But if you want to focus on specific companies then that is just as true - the network effect has made it possible for businesses to exist that are entirely dependent on massive userbase of companies like google, ebay, amazon, paypal, facebook and twitter. There are effectively no other players in those markets because the behemoths are the only ones with the scale to make the variety of dependent businesses feasible.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  6. De facto, or de jure? by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Google is a de facto monopoly because they're pretty awesome. Your local Telco is a de jure monopoly because they have lobbyists. Monopolies are great so long as the market remains open.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:De facto, or de jure? by owlnation · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Google is a de facto monopoly because they're pretty awesome."

      That's not true at all.

      Google is a monopoly because there is currently no better alternative. Altavista was a monopoly for exactly the same reasons, until Google came along.

      Ironically in fact, 13 years on, Google is currently no better that Altavista was. Since every POS on Earth has figured out how to game Google, the number of link-farm results in the first page is becoming as overwhelming as the tag-spammed results in Altavsita once was.

      The difference between a virtual monopoly and a physical one is that the price of entry in the market is much lower. Google busted Altavsita with a good idea, a few employees and cobbled together gear. Someone can do that again. It won't be another monopolistic big corp like MS to do it, because they are too bureaucratic to innovate as much as is Google now.

      Google's monopoly could crash and burn in a year by the actions of a couple of guys with a good idea. And, by god, we really need that to happen. Search is currently no better than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

    2. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost all the monopolies got where they were because they offered a better product. It was only once they got there that they use their power to squeeze everyone else out and more importantly prevent anyone else getting a foothold.

      Google, Amazon, Ebay & facebook are all at the stage where they are starting to abuse their power. Their 'do no evil' faces are beginning to chip away to reveal they're doing everything that every previous monopoly has done. They'll get broken up or stopped eventually but before then they're going to do a lot of bad shit.

    3. Re:De facto, or de jure? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Your Latin needs some rework.

      But let's take the implication that awesomeness==monopoly. Nope. Google, while attempting world domination, has lots of great competition breathing down its neck, and has rotten product quality. Score: as awesomeness != monopoly, zero so far.

      The local telco is a de legis monopoly. The jure is still out. Score, as they were voted into power (by a bribed legislature nationally, and by state across the US, and by fiat in many countries during the PTT era, we'll agree).

      Monopolies invariably suck, no matter the market quality of 'open'. None are open, so the score here is zero, too.

      Monopolies need to be fought. Competition breeds better price, higher quality (usually), and alternatives not present with monopolis. But the perception of monopolies also drives competition. For every Goliath, there is a David with a sling shot who's pissed off.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    4. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Amusing that you ended with a biblical war-like reference, and your signature exhorts people to "teach peace".

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    5. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      Actually, 'de jure' is the proper term. Google has become a verb - I think they've won on awesomeness. Do you hear people saying "I'll just Bing that" ?

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    6. Re:De facto, or de jure? by bmo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Search is currently no better than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

      20 years ago?

      Really?

      --
      BMO

    7. Re:De facto, or de jure? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Funny

      Search is currently no better than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

      20 years ago?

      Really?

      --
      BMO

      Yes. 20 years ago I could very easily search all existing web sites. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    8. Re:De facto, or de jure? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I didn't say I savored that method. Rather, Sun Tzu's _Art of War_ seems the way that business is done these days, as the Darwinian Branch of capitalism rules.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    9. Re:De facto, or de jure? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Google is a monopoly because there is currently no better alternative. Altavista was a monopoly for exactly the same reasons, until Google came along.

      Try the competition, IMHO they aren't any worse either. The main advantage that Google has over them is more hardware and more sweeps across the net. Which for many things is an advantage, but most of the information that people are looking for is at least a few days old.

    10. Re:De facto, or de jure? by martas · · Score: 1

      lolz. but seriously, what are all these complaints i've been hearing about spam in google search results? anyone have an example where, say, bing provides search results that are obviously better than google's?

      maybe if i ever searched for anything other than the latest semi-supervised learning paper, i'd have noticed this too.. DAMN YOU, GRADUATE SCHOOL!!!

    11. Re:De facto, or de jure? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      I think he meant the card catalog system at the library. Though honestly I think it was better then; there were fewer penis enlargement spams, at least if you were using the catalog of a library not frequented by high school freshmen.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    12. Re:De facto, or de jure? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    13. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20 years ago I would ask your mom.

      She always knew where everything was.

    14. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      Altavista was never a monopoly, or even close

    15. Re:De facto, or de jure? by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      the number of link-farm results in the first page is becoming as overwhelming as the tag-spammed results in Altavsita once was.

      I don't get this. Am I just searching for unpopular things? 99% of the time, the first page of results are ALL highly relevant.

    16. Re:De facto, or de jure? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      There's a lot to learn from it -- especially, "when an enemy is making a mistake, do not interfere." I love that one. :)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  7. The "Mona Lisa Effect" by Subjective · · Score: 1

    Google and Amazon are possible because of a large crowd.
    Facebook and Twitter and eBay don't work without a large existing crowd.
    So you pick a site which already has a large crowd, thus creating a monopoly.

    --
    My other .sig is also this bad
  8. Bullshit. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    like what other industry ? the publishing industry ? which is dominated by approx. 4 groups ? the broadcasting ? which is dominated by 4 groups again ? music ? 4 groups ? movie ? 4 groups ? cleaner products ? even less groups ? oil ? even less ?

    ironically most of the above groups in different industries are either the same, or subsidiaries of bigger holdings.

    what was about that 'come and go' bullshit again ? apparently they have come, and not going anywhere.

    1. Re:Bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of these are high-barrier-to-entry markets where switching costs are designed into the system.

      If you seriously think that internet 'monopolies' are easy to hold onto, I'll point you to a little site called "Digg".

      You see, Digg *was* a successful user-driven news site, which was kinda popular. In fact, they were dominating their particular 'category' of websites. Recently they launched the newest revision of their website, which they named "Diggv4". Suffice it to say, it was designed specifically to make it easier for websites to spam it so that Kevin Rose could get more advertising money. To make a long story short, Digg recently fired a good chunk of their engineering team, the website is a ghost town, and everyone moved to Reddit.

      So no, I don't think that the Internet can be as cabalized as real-world markets, because the capitalists in those markets have already figured out several plans to keep control over them.

    2. Re:Bullshit. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      All of these are high-barrier-to-entry markets where switching costs are designed into the system.

      They weren't when they started. And you don't think you can compete with Google by using your home PC either, do you? The entry barrier tends to grow as markets mature.

      And about your Digg story: Sure, if you make an utterly stupid decision, you'll lose. But that's the same in any other market. Change your newspaper in a way your readers don't like, and your readers will leave you. Of course, the publishing company will typically have several other newspapers, so it will survive anyway. But then, Google can survive a failure of a single of its services either (remember Google Video? Well, in the end, Google just bought YouTube).

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  9. Nope. It's the credit supply by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's a feature of the supply of credit to the market. You make money by pushing your competitors out of the market and taking their business. Credit is what allows you to do that.

    In addition, the fact that you have loans to pay means you are largely required by your creditors to grow.
     

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 4, Informative

      irrelevant. even if there was no credit, in the long run all the assets would consolidate at the hands of more successful competitors. that is even assuming they started off equally, which is never the case.

      read the post i linked down in the grandparent.

    2. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Let's look at your post:

      You make money by pushing your competitors out of the market and taking their business.

      You don't have to, but you certainly will make money if you accomplish all that. So far, so good.

      Credit is what allows you to do that.

      I don't get it. Are you the only person with credit? Do you have more credit than your competitors? Would anyone give you that much credit if you weren't already pushing your competitors out? "Having more credit" only makes a difference if you use it, which is the same as "having more debt." How does that help?

      In addition, the fact that you have loans to pay means you are largely required by your creditors to grow.

      Your creditors don't "largely require" you to do shit other than pay them back. You're confusing "I have a corporate charter" with "I have student loans."

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    3. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by sjames · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The reason is simple, money attracts money. It always has and always will. In the absence of a re-distribution framework, those that have lots will always be able to siphon more off from those who have little.

      Put another way, an unregulated free market is intrinsically unstable. There exist a number of local minima where competition exists, but eventually it all falls into the deep well of a monopoly. This should surprise nobody, Adam Smith pointed out the need for regulation to avoid exactly that fate.

    4. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get it. Are you the only person with credit? Do you have more credit than your competitors? Would anyone give you that much credit if you weren't already pushing your competitors out? "Having more credit" only makes a difference if you use it, which is the same as "having more debt." How does that help?

      I hope you don't call yourself a capitalist. You really don't get it.

      Debt is a perfectly fine thing to have, if you invest the principal in projects with a rate of return greater than the interest payments due. That's the whole point of capitalism.

    5. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You make money by pushing your competitors out of the market and taking their business. Credit is what allows you to do that. In addition, the fact that you have loans to pay means you are largely required by your creditors to grow.

      It's not just credit, but all forms of investment where the investor -- who is not involved in the actual production of goods and services -- supplies capital with the expectation to receive profit later. (And that profit has to be skimmed off the top of the productivity of the people who are actually doing the work, so that they can never receive the full value of their labor.)

      In other word, capitalism -- which, despite the confusion its apologists like to engender, is a very different thing than free markets -- is at fault. If you get the backing of the investment class, you can push others out of the market, even if their product is superior

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    6. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Credit accelerates the problem. Because it tends towards a cumulative effect. As you gain assets you have both more control over the market, enabling you to more easily service the loans, and more to put up as collateral.

      You are however correct, that even without credit you would still see the same pattern, albeit much more slowly.

    7. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Peach+Rings · · Score: 1

      Your creditors don't "largely require" you to do shit other than pay them back.

      With interest. Presumably if you can't afford it now but you can afford to pay extra later then you've done something profitable with the money in the meantime.

    8. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Having a better project to invest in than your competitors do is what helps, not the debt itself. I'm not trying to argue "all debt is bad", just that "credit" by itself isn't the one and only way businesses anywhere make money.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    9. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 1

      Adam Smith pointed out the need for regulation to avoid exactly that fate.

      can you provide a link to a source. it would be great to clear out some misconceptions in future discussions.

      tho, regulation can never be enough. any group will grow as large as the society allows them. if you allow them to be as large as a country (like the 6-9 companies that dominate the world's biggest economic entities list in top 13), they will eventually become as powerful as countries.

    10. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, merely having a lower cost of capital will give you a huge advantage.

      If I was to go to the bank to ask for capital to open a restaurant, I would have to pay 15% interest (say). If McDonalds did it, they would have to pay 5% (say). They could take out a loan three times as big as I could, and open three restaurants, each of which could easily pay off the interest of their loan.

      I "could" have opened those restaurants instead. If I had access to capital with that cost of capital.

    11. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "an unregulated free market is intrinsically unstable"

      Actually an "unregulated free market" is an oxymoron, the "market" is not a physical thing it's a set of regulations that govern trade. Therefore an "unregulated market" doesn't make sense since it translates to a set of rules with no rules. "Free" simply means everyone is free to partcipate provided they play by the rules.

      Contract law, property rights, legal tender, etc, are all part of the regulations that go into making the internet a "market", the fact that (theorectically) anyone can use the internet makes it a "free market".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by Daengbo · · Score: 1
    13. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by twidarkling · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's not just having a better project to invest in. It's having a better project to invest in, at the right time to invest in it, and the ability to sufficiently invest in it. A good project pushed too soon will fail (see: every product that was made, failed, then came back later to large success), and if you can't invest in it, you miss out. Credit gives you the ability to leap on good projects at the proper time, with a sufficient amount of capital. That is the way that credit can help swing the market.

      It's not a HUGE swing, really, but I'm guessing that's what Colin was talking about. The ability to act at the proper time, rather than merely when you're able.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    14. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 1

      i meant, adam smith's idea in regard to necessity of regulations.

    15. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Start with The Wealth of Nations. Keep in mind while reading that he was writing about a very different world. Consider his examples and how they are changed in a world where corporations far more common (in his day it was possible for an individual to never do business with a corporation without even trying).

      Then search on Adam Smith market regulation. Have a pound of salt handy, you'll find everything from insightful analysis to the worst sort of economic fundamentalism.

      IMHO, we need to replace the web of small regulations with a few big ones. Do away with corporate personhood entirely and enforce corporate charter being contingent upon the public interest. Then we should probably enshrine in law that being "too big to fail" is intrinsically against the public interest.

    16. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by sjames · · Score: 1

      I used the term in the modern and well-understood manner consistent with the last 10-30 years of political discourse. Sorry to be so unclear.

    17. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 1

      i very much think that, if you allow any kind of entity/group/person to grow too big in financial power, it will eventually end up the same, regardless of regulations. best would be to limit company size at a certain ceiling, and limit shareholdership/ownership for each citizen at a maximum number. this would allow maximum participation in the democratic side of corporate process, ensure that corporations are owned by vast swaths of the populace, making population's interest directly corporations' interest and making them impossible to conflict population. also, no group/interest could get big enough to constitute governments, or center of powers which can affect or run governments/countries by themselves. it would also fix politics too, since everyone will be at a maximum power, and the power will be distributed to 250 million, noone will be able to undo others and have their way, contrary to will of others.

    18. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Adam Smith pointed out the need for regulation to avoid exactly that fate.

      can you provide a link to a source. it would be great to clear out some misconceptions in future discussions.

      Nah; it wouldn't clear up anything. I've read the Adam Smith comments on the topic in other /. discussions and in numerous other forums. It never has any effect. The True Believers never accept that Smith wrote such things, and others Who Knew It All Along just skim over them and go onto more interesting things. Quoting him once again won't have any more effect than it did elsewhere.

      Let's face it, very few of the Free Market types have ever bothered to read Adam Smith. It's a lot like the way that most people who "believe" other religious texts like the Bible or Koran don't bother with reading them, or don't keep their minds in gear while reading them. All they need to know is that the sacred texts support their beliefs.

      Quoting actual passages from the sacred texts rarely if ever affects the believers.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    19. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by hitmark · · Score: 1

      These days i would say the "free market" proponents are more likely to have read Ayn Rand then Adam Smith.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    20. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 1

      you actually pictured the situation really well. it is indeed what happens.

    21. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I wasn't picking on you personally, I was picking on the oxymoron that has been in common use since (at least) the Reagan/Thatcher years. It's economic doublespeak designed to con people into voting against their own best interest.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    22. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by drakaan · · Score: 1

      Your implication is that individuals are better at managing power than collections of individuals.

      I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. It's a delicate balance. On one hand, you have pure democracy (which you propose), in which case, a majority of one decides the issue, regardless of the opinion of the just-barely-a-minority. Companies succeed by out-competing other companies on a variety of levels. Completely distributed ownership destroys the incentive that success provides.

      If I own shares in every cookie company, and so does everyone else, then the idea of ownership becomes meaningless. What does my ownership get me? What good does my investment do for me or anyone else? How does that ownership and investment help those companies to succeed?

      There are a variety of things that one could argue don't work in free markets, but what *does* work about [regulated] free markets is that new players have ample opportunity to supplant existing ones. 20 years ago, Google was in its infancy, and Yahoo was a far more influential company. Today, yahoo is all but gone, and Google stands toe-to-toe with any other tech company out there.

      In another 20 years, we'll be having this same conversation about some as-yet-unknown tech startup doing the same thing.

      Limiting company size or enforcing distributed ownership would definitely put the brakes on growth, but that's not the point, is it? The point is that we shouldn't allow a confusion between economic success (of an individual or company) and political power. The boundary has little to do with the size of the company, and much to do with the influence they are allowed to exert on our elected representatives. In that regard, those representatives are just as culpable as any shrewd corporate type.

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
    23. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by unity100 · · Score: 1

      Your implication is that individuals are better at managing power than collections of individuals. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

      it works that way. it is the idea behind the basis of democracy. the opposite is elitism, or aristocracy or oligarchy in various forms.

      On one hand, you have pure democracy (which you propose), in which case, a majority of one decides the issue, regardless of the opinion of the just-barely-a-minority.

      what you speak of, are minority rights and federalism issues. it doesnt have relevance to basics of democracy. even if you stray that far, and analyze those situations, even in those cases you would need to distribute power equally to citizens in the state level, so that, groups in the state level wouldnt dominate and rule over the citizens in that state. or any kind of other societal unit.

      there cant be freedom and choice, if the powers are not equal.

      Companies succeed by out-competing other companies on a variety of levels. Completely distributed ownership destroys the incentive that success provides.

      this is a misstatement. there are numerous forms of distributed collective ownership constructs in society, from cooperatives to open source projects, and they succeed. sometimes even more than the other types.

      If I own shares in every cookie company, and so does everyone else, then the idea of ownership becomes meaningless. What does my ownership get me? What good does my investment do for me or anyone else? How does that ownership and investment help those companies to succeed?

      in this scheme, you are going to be wealth capped. you will not be able to have shares in innumerable companies, you wont be able to wealth in unlimited fashion. therefore, you will have to choose what you will investing in, what company you will be supporting. you may support open source companies, or you may support marine sports companies. so, at a certain cap, your power will be capped. this will accomplish numerous things :

      you wont be able to amass more power than any others, therefore, you, or any group that is joined by you, wont be able to assert their will on any other segment of society, politically and financially.

      you will have to spend more than the cap you are earning. this, will ensure that the profits made enters back into economy instead of sitting in swiss banks, and earning money over money, and will push investment.

      you will have accomplished the financial goal that this society can provide. this, will give you sense of accomplishment. since you will be secure financially, you wont have worries of fighting over your survival. with that, you will be able to actually work on providing your unique contribution to the society, whatever it is, genuinely and passionately. you will also have the financial power to do it.

      the above will spur boundless creativity and innovation civilization-wide, because it will happen for everyone.

      societal system will be more democratic in every level. currently it is supposedly democratic in political level, however it is being dominated by financial/economic. with the new cap scheme, companies will have to have more shareholders, and the participation of the society in decision making process of companies will increase, therefore they will be more democratic.

      it is currently appalling ; politically supposedly we are democratic, but, 5-10 people can hold and decide what happens with economic entities (corporations) that are bigger than approx 190 countries on the face of the planet. they can affect entire economies.

      There are a variety of things that one could argue don't work in free markets, but what *does* work about [regulated] free markets is that new players have ample opportunity to supplant existing ones. 20 years ago, Google was in its infancy, and Yahoo was a far more influential company. Today, yahoo

    24. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by drakaan · · Score: 1

      Your implication is that individuals are better at managing power than collections of individuals. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

      it works that way. it is the idea behind the basis of democracy. the opposite is elitism, or aristocracy or oligarchy in various forms.

      If you mean that collective will is the idea behind democracy, then you just made a mistake in saying "it works that way". I said collections of individuals are better at managing power than individuals. You said that the *opposite* of collective management is elitism, aristocracy, oligarchy. Difficult to understand which way you're attempting to disagree.

      Companies succeed by out-competing other companies on a variety of levels. Completely distributed ownership destroys the incentive that success provides.

      this is a misstatement. there are numerous forms of distributed collective ownership constructs in society, from cooperatives to open source projects, and they succeed. sometimes even more than the other types.

      That's not a misstatement, as we're talking about two different things. You're discussing the ability of projects to be self-sustaining, and I'm talking about the ability of business to grow.

      In both of your examples, you are not talking about a closed ecosystem. In both examples, there is a reliance on outside investment in order to spur growth. If there is no "outside" (i.e. all companies are collectives, and all are equally owned by all people), then there is no place for further investment to come from, and no growth path.

      ...you will have accomplished the financial goal that this society can provide. this, will give you sense of accomplishment. since you will be secure financially, you wont have worries of fighting over your survival. with that, you will be able to actually work on providing your unique contribution to the society, whatever it is, genuinely and passionately. you will also have the financial power to do it.

      the above will spur boundless creativity and innovation civilization-wide, because it will happen for everyone...

      That (and the rest that's unquoted) sounds wonderful, but it doesn't work that way (this is not a case of me being "pretty sure"...I'm sure). The idea that all of mankind will be content with some status quo...that no man or woman will ever feel a sense of ambition...is without merit. That's the fly in the ointment of what ,logically speaking, is an otherwise fine argument for socialism.

      Human beings compete. They strive. They desire and yearn and want and hope and try. For you, it may not be monetary...you may gain satisfaction in performing a task well enough to gain accolades. Not everyone is so pure of thought, and going through this discussion from a position of assuming that people have no desire does not serve you well.

      ...internet was the wild west of the new era. it has been exploited, and hierarchy has been established. now there wont be any more googles. its no different than 19th century wild west...

      I did, in fact read the thread, and am in the process of voicing my disagreement. You believe that the internet was once a wild west, but is now well established. I believe that to be untrue. Look to Facebook and Google's *current* tete-a-tete as an anecdotal example. That, however is not the wider point.

      There is always a new frontier...a new paradigm...a new hot place to be, whether that's in technology, business, art, or whatever. In that place, there are many players. Some succeed, and some do not. For every Andy Warhol, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet, there are countless millions who were less successful, and billions who did not have the temerity to even try to be. It has happened countless times before, and will happen countless times again. The old ceases t

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
    25. Re:Nope. It's the credit supply by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually he seems to be saying that significant concentrations of power are the problem rather than that power being individual or collective.

      He also points out that great imbalances of power are a problem.

      So it's not that every single person owns a bit of the cookie company, just that many people own a bit of it and that the ownership is evenly enough distributed that it's not possible for a small minority of stockholders to outvote a majority.

      The other point is that when a company gets so much power that it becomes "too big to fail", it's a problem, so it shouldn't be allowed.

  10. What a shocker by AdmiralXyz · · Score: 0, Troll
    In the absence of regulation, free markets always end up as monopolies. Not sometimes but always.

    Wu argues that this is nothing new, and that each wave of information technology has followed the same pattern

    It's not just information technology, it's technology in general since 1840. Textiles, railroads, oil, PC operating systems - they all started out as highly competitive markets then inevitably became monopolies, until the government stepped in. Why should the Internet be any different?

    that Americans... actually love monopolies?

    No, it's just that most of us are too stupid to realize this tendency, no matter how many times it's been demonstrated in the past. Show an American government regulation, even if it's to protect him, and he'll start shrieking about communism before you can get a word in edgewise.

    --
    Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
    1. Re:What a shocker by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the absence of regulation, free markets always end up as monopolies. Not sometimes but always.

      Name three.

      Back in the real world, actual, real monopolies can only exist if:

      a) the monopoly is more efficient than any competitor, thereby providing better service to their customers.

      or:

      b) the government keeps competitors out of the market.

      In many cases in communications, governments built the initial infrastructure using its powers to take land from its owners at gunpoint, and then handed it over to private companies, which no new company can easily compete with since they don't have such powers. Similarly, big business loves regulation (or, at least, the 'right kind' of regulation as produced by its lobbyists and their tame politicians) as it raises the barriers of entry and keeps new competitors out of their market.

    2. Re:What a shocker by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      It's not just information technology, it's technology in general since 1840. Textiles, railroads, oil, PC operating systems - they all started out as highly competitive markets then when the government stepped in, inevitably became monopolies,

      There fixed that for you. The only thing like a monopoly that I have ever heard of that did not result from government action is Microsoft. Railroads, monopolies developed through government intervention (primarily state and local governments, but government nonetheless). Telephone, AT&T got their monopoly through intervention by the Federal Government. Our current situation with the Internet in the U.S. is a result of the Federal government passing laws to give localities the authority to grant local monopolies for cable TV.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:What a shocker by catbutt · · Score: 0

      a) the monopoly is more efficient than any competitor, thereby providing better service to their customers.

      Until the competitors are out of business, and they have no reason to compete. Anyway, "more efficient" doesn't necessarily mean "better service". It could be that they are just more efficient at making profits....which tends to be the case when a company has a monopoly.

    4. Re:What a shocker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The history of government regulation has to include such episodes as starving millions of Russians to death, millions of Chinese and Cambodians, and yes, millions of Jews in gas chambers. Corporate monopolies, if they've killed anyone, it's not significant by comparison.

      Government regulation shows up at your door with M-16s. Corporate monopolies don't.

      Government is the IRS and the Postal Service. You want the Internet to look like those wonders of efficiency?

    5. Re:What a shocker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you are living in some alternate world, aren't you? MS wasn't more efficient, and the government didn't keep competitors out. They became a monopoly through backroom deals and anticompetitive behavior. They were even convicted of it. So you kissed a big C) in your options there.

    6. Re:What a shocker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Show an American government regulation, even if it's to protect him, and he'll start shrieking about communism before you can get a word in edgewise.

      Americans should be vigilant against corrupt use of government power and the promises of politicians. You have to remember that even if you have paranoid citizens shrieking about communism, you also have politicians who are ever being corrupted by the power they have, and the idea of powers they believe they can justify. Our government is founded on the very idea that men should not be trusted with power and it would serve us well to remember why.

    7. Re:What a shocker by Baba+Ram+Dass · · Score: 0

      The idea is that to make a higher profit, to be more efficient, one has to serve the demands of the customer to gain the business required to make a higher profit. The instances where this idea stands at odds with those in the "real world" are usually examples of sectors that are highly regulated by the government, raising the barrier to entry and preventing competition.

      Take hot dogs... you might be able to make your machines more efficient at making hot dogs than the next guy, but that won't help your profit margins if your hot dogs taste like dog shit. The nasty tasting hot dog manufacturer might then use the strong arm of government to enact legislation outlawing one of his competitors' ingredients. (In the end, all hot dogs are pretty fucking unhealthy, but that point is missed by the politicians wanting to look health-conscious to their constituents.) The nasty tasting hot dog manufacturer might also push to have its brand of hot dogs be served exclusively in schools for the lunch entree on "hot dog Tuesdays".

      Take out the corporatism element of government-sanctioned monopolies, and you get the best tasting AND most affordable hot dog becoming "top dog" as it were. Does "top dog" afford some luxuries not existing in the mom-and-pop businesses? Sure. But as long as the barrier to entry is low, regulation is not crippling, the market will tend toward the collective desires of the customer.

      The problem is so often the collective customer is an idiot.

      --
      Truckin like the Doo-Dah man...
    8. Re:What a shocker by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, Government regulation can give good and bad.
      In Germany, government regulation had given us a big single monopoly over any sort of communication, from letters to phone calls. OTOH new regulations have caused a great competition in the phone and internet market despite the pre-existing monopoly.
      So you see, government regulation can do both good (prevent/destroy monopolies) and bad (create monopolies). It always depends on the type of regulation.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    9. Re:What a shocker by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      You wanted some examples?

      And if you want to complain about the second link, note that an Oligopoly is just a point on the asymptotic slide towards a Monopoly. Gobbling up competitors becomes more difficult as they become larger and the benefits of gaining a monopoly decrease as the the number of competitors decrease, at least as long as those competitors are amenable to a little group price-fixing.

      Even so, given enough time and the lack of any outside intervention, eventually oligopolies will collapse into a monopoly state. One by one each company will _eventually_ make a mistake large enough to make it a good takeover prospect, or companies will come up with good reasons to merge.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    10. Re:What a shocker by sourcerror · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe you should look up the East India Company.

    11. Re:What a shocker by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1

      I'd say that eBay is pretty much a monopoly as well, and for similar reasons to Microsoft, which are network effects. If you want to auction something, you go where the buyers are. And you then become part of the problem because you get more buyers to use eBay.

      Facebook and other social networks don't have the same power because you can exist on many networks.

    12. Re:What a shocker by poopdeville · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The idea is that to make a higher profit, to be more efficient, one has to serve the demands of the customer to gain the business required to make a higher profit.

      This is not what economic efficiency means.

      And the idea is wrong.

      A monopoly will be economically inefficient, specifically because it maximizes profits, and is in a position to control prices. That means that the prices it sets will be greater than the marginal cost of production.

      In a competitive market, the marginal cost of production equals the marginal benefit equals the price. No one firm has the ability to set prices, because others will eat their lunches. On the other hand, a larger business can easily grind away smaller businesses by providing exactly the same quality of service and price on a large scale, because its cost of capital will typically be lower. This means that markets tend toward monopolies.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    13. Re:What a shocker by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "Americans should be vigilant against corrupt use of government power and the promises of politicians."

      Yes, they should. But the fact remains that they aren't. This is how there's actually people that support bills/laws/treaties such as the Patriot Act. That's how there are actually people that support the blatant invasions of privacy and freedom at airports. The average indoctrinated drone believes that they are making a difference by voting in the same two parties over and over.

      "Our government is founded on the very idea that men should not be trusted with power and it would serve us well to remember why."

      Well, it failed seeing as how the rich currently control the government. When they don't, a tyrant does. Giving the people such little power turned out to be a great idea! I mean, it's an all or nothing scenario right? Majority controls everything or the government does! Those are the only choices!

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    14. Re:What a shocker by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Actually, you've got that backwards, deregulated sectors typically come with a much higher barrier to entry as the players already there have typically built themselves an impenetrable fortress against anybody entering the sector.

      Regulated sectors tend not to have that happen as the first thing that regulators like to do is put into place measures that make companies actually compete.

    15. Re:What a shocker by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Actually, the IRS has a better record of gaining compliance to tax laws than pretty much any equivalent body in any other nation. And the USPS has managed for quite some time to keep the rate of rate increases under the rate of inflation.

      I don't really think those are particularly good examples of what you're intending to say.

    16. Re:What a shocker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not necessarily true that the best hot dog maker will come out on top. For instance, one hot dog maker may make a worse tasting hot dog, but by using the cheaper ingredients they make their dogs at half the price of the competitors. This hot dog sells less because it tastes worse, but nets a higher total profit due to the much better profit margin on a given dog. The company saves up the cash and buys out its competitors one by one.

      Free markets select for companies which best make a profit, not those which provide the best or most affordable good or service. Those are two possible routes to making a great profit, but other routes include making the shoddiest, cheapest product you can get away with without losing too much market share.

    17. Re:What a shocker by other-different-nick · · Score: 1

      Government regulation shows up at your door with M-16s. Corporate monopolies don't.

      True enough, but only because modern corporate monopolies understand the value of outsourcing.

    18. Re:What a shocker by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      What? Still trying to blame government for monopolization? Don't you people ever get tired/smart?

      *sigh* I don't deny that the gov can create monopolies that's obvious, the problem is that monopolies are intrinsic to capitalism and trying to blame all monopolies on government only makes you look like a child, a shill, an idiot or a combination of above.

      Deals get done in a regulation free environment, plenty in fact. That McNasty Co. will still get a deal with that free market school, ditto with ingredient suppliers, McNasty doesn't need to out the ingredients of Goodie Co. just make exclusive deals (MS and OEMs serve as a example).

      Also you forgot to mention McNasty is also very cheap and bring me some bullshit that Googdie Co. is both the cheapest and tastier provider, you never get both of those, so Goodie Co. probably can't compete in price, at most you get two tiers a high and a low end tier (Apple/MS isn't it?).

      That is until McNasty starts to really lean on the budget, cutting cost by using unhealthy production methods, no regulation baby! People won't find out until 10 years later their children start getting born without brains. *Then* can people start inquiring so then can vote with their wallet in the only righteous way available.

      Mean while Goodie Co. will also start cutting down prices by exploiting people in sweatshops (Remember Apple-Foxconn?) in fact there's lot's of nasty stuff Goodie Co can do and still sell better tasting hot dogs than McNasty.

      One thing is true, McNasty is bigger so it sells in places that Goodie Co. they can afford to launch a line of tasty dogs too. In fact McNasty can have a cheap, healthy and tasty lines leaving Goodie Co with no slice of the cake. But that's ok McNasty is serving the needs of the public, until Goodie Co exhausts it's capital and either goes bankrupt or gets sold, then McNasty will be the only player in town and can do whatever they want until the next Goodie Co needs to be stomped upon.

      And where is the next Goodie Co going to come from? Pop&Mom's Hot Dogs of course can't get the deals and connections McNasty has got. No, your best choices will probably be Big Movies Inc. or Generic Motors (hot dogs division).

      With or without governments capitalism gravitates to small oligopolies at best and monopolies at worst.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    19. Re:What a shocker by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The only thing like a monopoly that I have ever heard of that did not result from government action is Microsoft.

      Then your school failed you, because you've never heard of Standard Oil. You know, the reason we have antitrust laws?

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    20. Re:What a shocker by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I look how anti-regulation kooks try to paint the post office as inefficient. The US Post Office is one of the most efficient shipping organizations in the world.

      Go ahead, look up how much it costs to mail a letter in England. 41 pence. Which is 66 cents, 50% more than the US, and that's only delivery to Great Britain (England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, channel isles, etc.), not to other places in the UK, whereas the US rate includes places like Hawaii and the US Virgin Islands and military bases.

      They're so cheap that UPS and FedEX are now using them for some package delivery.

      I swear to god, it's like people making jokes about 'airline food' or something. It's a joke with a total disconnect from actual facts.

      And how exactly is the IRS inefficient? The tax code is inefficient, but the IRS isn't.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    21. Re:What a shocker by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yes, I have heard of Standard Oil. Standard Oil became a monopoly in part as a result of government regulations that created the railroad monopolies.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    22. Re:What a shocker by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      As I've been saying forever: Just saying things does not make them true.

      Or, in the new lingo: Cite please.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  11. they DO want it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Americans, so diverse and individualistic, actually love these monopolies?

    Whenever a company gets too big (Intel, Comcast, Microsoft, I'm looking at you) I start giving my money to their competitors so we don't end up getting one or two dominant companies abusing us in the future. I have only bought AMD systems for a decade now for example, and I use a local ISP and an aerial for TV reception. I'm trying hard to find a good Cortex-A9 based laptop.

    But nobody else seems to agree. They all seem to prefer doing what the rest of the sheep do. If everybody else is doing it, it can't be wrong!

    So I think the article is correct. Americans LOVES them some monopolies, with only a few exceptions such as myself and probably some few other people reading this. But not so many exceptions. Not enough to matter.

    1. Re:they DO want it by sznupi · · Score: 1

      The whole thing about "individualism" and being an "individual" appears to mean something different from what it sounds like - comes with an evaluation of how much (?!) of an individual you are.

      The view appears to be: since we cherish the perception of how everyone has the opportunity to excel, we should honor those who do so since they are the representation of true individualism (which gives the word a whole new meaning)

      It follows that those who don't excel need to recognize that and pay deference to those who do = where the "leadership" comes in, which appears to be not far off from conforming to your place in the society (say, a follower displays leadership when recognizing that he is expected to follow and then doing everything possible to please the (actual) leader - individualism and leadership as top-down hero worship)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  12. It's crashing the economy by copponex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Our current market economy depends on finite supply, and with limited production capacity per person in order to employ people and pay them wages so they can also be consumers. As automation and robotics take over the means of production, only societies that can cope with overproduction with more socially shared resources will be able to thrive.

    In other words, China and Europe will continue to eat our lunch.

    1. Re:It's crashing the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think you got the cart before the horse, but since you already mentioned politics i'll just call you a hack and be done with it.

      socially shared resources worked out great for the soviet union :P
      Having the government force you to share resources is just one more monopoly, same as all other monopolies.

    2. Re:It's crashing the economy by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Funny

      Excuse me? China (and to a very lesser extent Europe, you probably mean mostly Germany) are 'eating' your lunch because the gov't created monopolies destroyed competition in USA by using gov't as means to destroy free market and to get themselves all the subsidies and regulations that keep out the new startups, so then once the economy became global the monopolies could easily outsource the labor to cheaper locations.

      But if the market in US was actually free and gov't didn't destroy the liberties in it: didn't take away capital through income tax, didn't impose regulations and rules that prevent businesses from starting and succeeding, didn't create the unbearable expectations of social net without actually having any way to pay for such obligations and because of that creating huge pyramid scams like SS and medicare and THEN because of these scams destroying the currency and eventually credit affordability of US private market, then US would still be producing.

      Take the minimum wage as an example, it's not really hugely important but it does show the destructive force of gov't intervention into free market:

      1. Minimum wage prices certain people out of market, out of jobs, out of apprenticeships.
      2. Minimum wage kills certain jobs, jobs that are NOT worth paying over certain amount, over minimum wage in this case.
      3. Minimum wage puts labor into competition not only with labor but also with capital, so instead of only competing with another worker, you have to compete with money that can be spent to automate the job away.

      Now, certainly automation is inevitable, but it does compete with labor costs.

      If a machine to wash floors by itself costs half a million dollars and a person costs 15K/year, then it doesn't make sense to buy the machine.

      However if the person costs 50K/year total, then maybe it DOES make sense to look into buying the machine and amortizing it over 10 years especially if it's possible to get cheap money coming out of gov'ts wazoo.

      China and the rest of productive labor in the world are an actual productive part of economy, while US and most of Europe are really not that productive at all when all regulations and rules and social obligations etc. are compared!

      So obviously Asia will see economies growing and US and most of Europe will see economies shrinking and dying because they are borrowing (which by the way is a way to tax you in the future, so it's a deferred tax + interest) and they are printing (which is killing the fiat currencies very quickly and it is taxing people who are mostly invested into those currencies, so people who live paycheck to paycheck for example, and it's taxing the ENTIRE savings of those people, not just their income).

      To fix this economics disaster that is happening and that is going to accelerate, the unproductive parts of the world need to do the following:

      1. Get rid of income tax. It's crazy to tax productive work and it's a terrible idea from point of view of liberty first, and from point of view of giving money to the unproductive gov't second.

      2. Get rid of all social obligations. Many believe they are entitled to SS money because they 'paid into it'. But what they don't realize is that dollars can only be spent once. 1 dollar can only be spent on 1 thing that costs 1 dollar. So if you pay taxes and supposedly some of them go to SS, but then SS is raided and money is used for other purposes by politicians elected by the people, then in principle the politicians are using the SS money to pay for other things that they promised to get elected, so the people already have gotten something for their dollars (even if they didn't want it, like Vietnam or Iraq wars for example) then they can't expect to get 2 things for 1 dollar they paid.

      But the point is that if gov't actually cared about people's ability to save money and be set for their retirements and future, they wouldn't be taxing income, they would allow the people to invest the money into their own savings and businesses. Instead the

    3. Re:It's crashing the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No minimum wage? No income tax?

      Thanks for sharing your recipe for hell.

    4. Re:It's crashing the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      wow. Even by the (frankly bizarre) standards of the US that's a fairly extreme viewpoint. Whilst I don't want to feed the (very dedicated) troll too much, a few points:

      1. You seem to think that the reason that China is producing is lack of government interference. Firstly that is simply not true as many industries in China are effectively nationalised. Secondly, some level of government regulation is generally recognised as a Good Thing, to try and reduce excessive pollution and other externalities. Growing the economy has to be balanced with keeping your cities inhabitable. Judging by the air quality in many big Chinese cities, some might say they haven't got the balance right yet.

      2. The idea that if the government would only stop interfering then everything would be great is demonstrably wrong. For one thing, you can look at countries where there is little to no governance (Yemen for example) to see that things are far from great. Whilst less government interference can indeed lead to great gains for some, the experience has too often been that the majority of people experience something very different. The industrial revolution brought great gains, but in the short term the life expectancy of the UK dropped. Yearning to return to a Dickensian age where great industrialists make lots of money whilst the majority live in grinding poverty seems somewhat perverse.

      3. Monopolies have tended to spring up around many new industries: railways, Bell telephone, Standard Oil etc. By and large these have started as unregulated businesses, but economies of scale have tended to benefit the largest companies. This then leads to a small number of companies dominating the field. Often it has been up to governments to step in and break up companies (Bell, Standard), and is why competition commissions have been set up to try and maintain a competitive market by breaking up cartels.

      4. You seem to have a pet peeve about income tax. I realise this is a matter of personal conviction, but one of the jobs of government is to try and correct what we (the people / voters) perceive as inequalities or injustices in the (mainly) free market system. Whilst you might be perfectly happy with huge inequalities, I think most people prefer a world in which there was some sort of safety net, and in which losing your job doesn't mean living on the street. If only for the selfish reason that those on benefits/welfare are probably less likely to rob you out of desperation.

    5. Re:It's crashing the economy by khallow · · Score: 1

      Our current market economy depends on finite supply, and with limited production capacity per person in order to employ people and pay them wages so they can also be consumers. As automation and robotics take over the means of production, only societies that can cope with overproduction with more socially shared resources will be able to thrive.

      That hasn't been true since the Industrial Age. Production capability has increased vastly since the 17th Century.

      In other words, China and Europe will continue to eat our lunch.

      Why? They don't appear to me to better "cope with overproduction with more socially shared resources". Instead, the US appears to be screwing the pooch with a rapidly growing economic parasitism.

    6. Re:It's crashing the economy by copponex · · Score: 1

      ...only societies that can cope with overproduction with more socially shared resources will be able to thrive.

      That hasn't been true since the Industrial Age. Production capability has increased vastly since the 17th Century.

      Take a look at this graph. Your assumptions are incorrect.

      In other words, China and Europe will continue to eat our lunch.

      Why? They don't appear to me to better "cope with overproduction with more socially shared resources". Instead, the US appears to be screwing the pooch with a rapidly growing economic parasitism.

      Nationalized infrastructure, like health care, roads, rail, energy production, research and development, and education are the very definition of socially shared resources. It's accomplished in different ways -- heavy regulation or direct governmental control -- but the effect is similar.

      Whereas Americans are for some reason allergic to throwing in with the rest of their citizens, the rest of industrialized society has accepted shared risk as a benefit instead of an assault on their greed, or as it's called now, "liberty."

    7. Re:It's crashing the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, we'll all be better off when we have no income tax to pay for government services, and have no regulation of any businesses. We've all seen how ignoring regulations on businesses works so well. (think S&L bailout, think banks and mortgage bailout, think corporations too big to fail bailout) It'd be much better if we could get ripped off and the poorest of us would simply starve in the streets.

      Always good to see a post by someone so knowledgeable about the history of our country.

    8. Re:It's crashing the economy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yes, you'd be better off with no income tax. The gov't shouldn't be providing any services in the first place, and it's obvious that you don't understand now, that the services they are 'providing' are a pyramid scam that will fall soon, no better than B. Madoff's scam was, only on a larger scale.

      Also it is correct, it's better not to regulate businesses but only given that the gov't also does not subsidize them in any way. Leave the businesses to survive or die on their own competing one against another.

      All the bailouts should never have happened, all the bailed out 'businesses' were supposed to be killed off by market, you are against the market doing its job.

    9. Re:It's crashing the economy by khallow · · Score: 1

      Take a look at this graph. Your assumptions are incorrect.

      Start your graph in 1700 instead of 1950. Then we'll have something to talk about.

      Nationalized infrastructure, like health care, roads, rail, energy production, research and development, and education are the very definition of socially shared resources. It's accomplished in different ways -- heavy regulation or direct governmental control -- but the effect is similar.

      Or by regulated markets. The effect is similar, but some ways work better than others.

    10. Re:It's crashing the economy by copponex · · Score: 1

      Start your graph in 1700 instead of 1950. Then we'll have something to talk about.

      You're quite aware that modern economics didn't fully develop until the late 19th Century, right? The reason there's no graph through the 18th Century is because they wouldn't know what to measure.

      There's a guy named Henry Ford you also may have heard of:

      The provision of a whole new system of electric generation emancipated industry from the leather belt and line shaft, for it eventually became possible to provide each tool with its own electric motor. This may seem only a detail of minor importance. In fact, modern industry could not be carried out with the belt and line shaft for a number of reasons. The motor enabled machinery to be arranged in the order of the work, and that alone has probably doubled the efficiency of industry, for it has cut out a tremendous amount of useless handling and hauling. The belt and line shaft were also tremendously wasteful – so wasteful indeed that no factory could be really large, for even the longest line shaft was small according to modern requirements. Also high speed tools were impossible under the old conditions-neither the pulleys nor the belts could stand modern speeds. Without high speed tools and the finer steels which they brought about, there could be nothing of what we call modern industry."

      Nationalized infrastructure, like health care, roads, rail, energy production, research and development, and education are the very definition of socially shared resources. It's accomplished in different ways -- heavy regulation or direct governmental control -- but the effect is similar.

      Or by regulated markets. The effect is similar, but some ways work better than others.

      The words. They mean things.

    11. Re:It's crashing the economy by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're quite aware that modern economics didn't fully develop until the late 19th Century, right?

      I'm also fully aware that this particular argument doesn't matter. One can always make rational estimates for these things, like tree ring and ice core data is considered a proxy useful for estimating global temperature in the time before humans kept track of temperature.

      The provision of a whole new system of electric generation emancipated industry from the leather belt and line shaft, for it eventually became possible to provide each tool with its own electric motor. This may seem only a detail of minor importance. In fact, modern industry could not be carried out with the belt and line shaft for a number of reasons. The motor enabled machinery to be arranged in the order of the work, and that alone has probably doubled the efficiency of industry, for it has cut out a tremendous amount of useless handling and hauling. The belt and line shaft were also tremendously wasteful - so wasteful indeed that no factory could be really large, for even the longest line shaft was small according to modern requirements. Also high speed tools were impossible under the old conditions-neither the pulleys nor the belts could stand modern speeds. Without high speed tools and the finer steels which they brought about, there could be nothing of what we call modern industry."

      Are you seriously trying to disagree with me? Here is an example of my argument in action. Ford describes a vast improvement in worker productivity through the use of electric motors and relatively modern machining techniques. So what happened? Did the US lay off most US workers due to this massive expansion of productivity per worker? Nope. Didn't happen. Instead wages went up due to the competition for workers.

      The words. They mean things.

      Too bad. I get your meaning. I also get that you are wrong. The industrial advancements and subsequent employment described above didn't come about because of "heavy regulation" or "direct government control". Yet they did more to employ people, to improve the standard of living for everyone, than all these heralded government programs. Where did the money come from for public health or public education? It came from wealth generated by innovations and businesses.

      Now maybe as you claimed then, all these things require serious government intervention. As I see it, most of these things you mention probably have social value (just as feeding myself a hamburger has social value), but I don't require the government to act when my personal interests will do the job. For example, getting a college education. If I really want one and I can't afford the expensive schools, then I can go to one of the thousands of smaller schools that offer an affordable education. Note what's going on here. I want an education and hence, I'm willing to work to get one. Society gets its educated person without requiring government intervention. Same sort of thing goes for health care. If you really want it, you'd pay for it.

      So why should government butt in on decisions better made by the individual? What does society gain from bribing some lazy slob to waste a few years at college or burning a few hundred thousand dollars of somebody else's money to keep a dying person alive for a few weeks more? I'm not opposed to reasonable interventions like enforcement of contracts or to prevent harm. I even don't mind a little bit of charity such as fixing "sucks to be you" chronic illnesses that can be treated for modest amounts with decades pf improvement in someone's quality of life.

      But how can you look at the massive amounts of money that government has spent on things like bailouts, corporate welfare, and "quantitative easing" and not get the connection with the massive government complex that has to exist to service what you think government should be doing? Handing out sugar to rich bankers is just a natural extension of government's involvement in US financial markets. Corruption is a natural state of a large government with low accountability to the public.

    12. Re:It's crashing the economy by copponex · · Score: 1

      A cursory glance at supply and demand will reveal that when the supply isn't finite, the curve doesn't work. Digital media and software consumption is virtually unlimited in supply, so no economic rules apply to it. Likewise, when robotics are mature enough, it will be vastly cheaper to have a million dollar machine that's only input requirement is electricity and maintenance. No sick days. 24 hour operation. No pension, health insurance, bathroom, parking space, or anything else required.

      The modern factory was basically established at the very beginning of the 20th century. The next turning point is the computer and robotics revolution, happening now. It is neither useful nor germane to talk about labor productivity in the 18th and 19th centuries. They didn't even have running water, much less hydraulics, hydroforming, microelectronics, etc. Oh, and the quickest way across the country was measured in months, not hours.

      The industrial advancements and subsequent employment described above didn't come about because of "heavy regulation" or "direct government control".

      No, they came about because of government investment. For better or worse, military technology is the basis for modern life. Without the need for vacuum tube machines filling rooms to calculate trajectories, we would not be communicating as we are now. Companies do not have the resources or the incentive to perform purely scientific research. That's why it all happens in publicly funded education, whether directly or through government research grants. Then it's handed off to private corporations to develop further.

      Corruption is a natural state of a large government with low accountability to the public

      This is absolutely true. Corruption is also the natural state of every corporation, period. So, when the government is unable or unwilling to regulate the market, it falls apart like a house of cards with a brick on top.

      PS: Please continue your argument against education by explaining the following: how is a second home for a wealthy person more economically useful than the education of a dozen students at a community college?

    13. Re:It's crashing the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, could you repeat the part after :

      ...Europe, you probably mean mostly Germany) are...

      I didn't quite catch the rest of it.

    14. Re:It's crashing the economy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      that's good, that was there too weed out the weaker of minds.

    15. Re:It's crashing the economy by khallow · · Score: 1

      A cursory glance at supply and demand will reveal that when the supply isn't finite, the curve doesn't work. Digital media and software consumption is virtually unlimited in supply, so no economic rules apply to it. Likewise, when robotics are mature enough, it will be vastly cheaper to have a million dollar machine that's only input requirement is electricity and maintenance. No sick days. 24 hour operation. No pension, health insurance, bathroom, parking space, or anything else required.

      Two things. First, when software consumption is "virtually unlimited", then other constraints play a role. Like creativity. The quantity may be unlimited in supply (though it's not really due to hard limits on computer memory and processing energy), but the suppliers remain limited in supply. Second, your million dollar machine requires maintenance. Low value human labor has been replaced by high value human labor. And a million dollar machine is still more expensive than a $50,000 a year human who pays for their own pension and health insurance.

      No, they came about because of government investment. For better or worse, military technology is the basis for modern life. Without the need for vacuum tube machines filling rooms to calculate trajectories, we would not be communicating as we are now. Companies do not have the resources or the incentive to perform purely scientific research. That's why it all happens in publicly funded education, whether directly or through government research grants. Then it's handed off to private corporations to develop further.

      This is the "fruit of the poison tree" argument. Any government activity in the past of some endeavor no matter how trivial taints the entire thing, making it fully a government endeavor. The rebuttal is that it would have happened anyway. Government might have sped it along a little or a lot by being an early adopter.

      This is absolutely true. Corruption is also the natural state of every corporation, period. So, when the government is unable or unwilling to regulate the market, it falls apart like a house of cards with a brick on top.

      Then the market rebuilds itself. Just as it has done for centuries. The businesses that don't fail become stronger and grab resources lost by the businesses that did fail. People that were badly employed move to jobs that are more productive and better for society.

      PS: Please continue your argument against education by explaining the following: how is a second home for a wealthy person more economically useful than the education of a dozen students at a community college?

      Easy. The wealthy person currently contributes more to society than the dozen students are. Respecting their decisions to spend their wealth how they choose (as long as it doesn't directly harm people), is payment for the services that they have rendered. This also provides considerable incentive for those students to pay for their own education. They too can become people who can afford to buy second homes.

  13. More sensationalist meaningless drivel by siddesu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This article is full of sensationalist bullshit.

    Facebook, Amazon, Skype, Twitter, Apple, eBay and Google

    Yes, one can do comfortably without all these. I don't shop at Amazon, instead, I shop at several other places, which vigorously compete with Amazon.

    I've never used online auction site, and still manage to buy shit online cheaply.

    I check my facebook account once a week if that, and I still manage.

    I switch between several search engines, and I think they've gone more or less on par.

    Twitter and Apple? Monopolies? Lolwut.

    It seems the author isn't very well versed in economics and uses words like "monopoly" and "free market" colloquially.

    Also, he has his bearings wrong. The only thing that allows any kind of "monopoly" in information is the government and its fucked up system of copyright and related rights, which is being tended by lawyers who are probably students of the author in the quagmire of "Intellectual property". Now, this is the REAL danger, but he somehow misses it altogether.

    Not impressive at all.

    Maybe the professor should concentrate on his studies in law, and not venture with superficial sensationalism in areas he doesn't know much about -- like economics -- before learning the basics.

    1. Re:More sensationalist meaningless drivel by Mikeikon · · Score: 1

      Seriously, how did this even make it to Slashdot? Idiotic.

  14. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by coaxial · · Score: 1

    Apparently, according to the author, MS's failure in search is purely down to Google's monopoly and completely unrelated to the fact that MS has in the past chosen to skew search results and hence proven itself to be an untrustworthy search provider?

    Citation needed. You're the first I have heard to make such an allegation. They only honest way to determine search engine "trustworthiness" or any over perceived performance measure is to do the search engine taste test. Three engines, one query. Choose the best result list.

    I bet you'll be surprised.

  15. Pretty Good Article About the Network Effect by SashaMan · · Score: 1

    Surprise surprise - capitalism on the internet is largely about companies dominated by the network effect. It is interesting, though, that while many folks thought the internet would lead to a broader spectrum of companies given that start up/fixed costs are so low, the network effect has tended to consolidate power to a very small number of winners.

    I think the overall effect on capitalism itself will be very interesting. Capitalism was always about winners and losers, but previously you could have a lot more winners given that there were a lot more markets. The internet is connecting all these markets, making space for fewer (albeit much bigger) winners. We talk a lot about the rise in income inequality in the US over the past few decades, and I think it has as much to do with technology as with any policy changes. Technology fundamentally makes things more efficient and breaks down market barriers - in many ways this is a great thing, but I think people are just now starting to realize how it has broad negative effects given the way our brand of capitalism works.

  16. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Citation needed.

    This isn't Wikipedia. Grow up!

    You're the first I have heard to make such an allegation. They only honest way to determine search engine "trustworthiness" or any over perceived performance measure is to do the search engine taste test

    Apparently, you also fail at reading, since I specifically said "in the past". Anyway, I have had multiple experiences of searching for something on MS's site and found that Google gives me the best results.

  17. pass go by binaryseraph · · Score: 1

    Well as long as I get to play as the thimble or hat, I have no complaints.

  18. Flawed premise by Sheik+Yerbouti · · Score: 1

    This whole premise is flawed a true monopoly of information in the traditional sense is not really happening on the Internet as far as I can tell. Sure the vast majority of people see Facebook as the Ineternet and spend entirely too much time on there posting inane updates, doing inane quizzes and playing terrible web games. However that does not stop Slashdot, Reddit or Penny Arcade or xckcd or hack a day or cnczone from existng and doing just fine for people that want or have a thought rattling around between their ears. The cost of entry is not high in fact with tech like Amazon ec2 it's stupid low at this point. Anyone can start a web site and make money it's just most people suck at it (me included).

    1. Re:Flawed premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Making money on the internet is easy and most people find it hard to do.

  19. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    completely unrelated to the fact that MS has in the past chosen to skew search results and hence proven itself to be an untrustworthy search provider?

    Yes, because nobody cares.

  20. Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Google is a de facto monopoly because they're pretty awesome." decisively true...
    dubbing

  21. So diverse and individualistic, actually love the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long our CHOICE to search on Google or post on Facebook or whatever is what is creating these so-called monopolies, we have no problem with them.

  22. I quit reading TFA at; by forgottenusername · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Forgoing Google and Amazon is just
    > inconvenient; forgoing Facebook or Twitter
    > means giving up whole categories of activity.

    I don't use facebook or twitter, but use google on a daily basis & amazon on a weekly basis.

    Anyone that claims to not be able to live without twitter/facebook is not someone I wanna hang out with regularly. Or read what they have to say about tech :P

  23. three words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    intellectual property patents.

  24. 'Free market' means muddled thinking by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The term "free market" is used to mean "competitive market" and is also used to mean "un-regulated market", despite the fact that few markets are both competitive and un-regulated. When someone uses the term "free market" with out clarifying which they mean, they are either confused, or they are trying to confuse you.

    1. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Actually, while "free market" proponents always advocate a completely unregulated market, wherever a truly unregulated market emerges it is always heavily fought against. It's also not called "free market" in that case, but "black market".

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No. All unregulated markets devolve into monopolies - ultimately, political as well as economic. That's why dictatorship is the norm throughout human history.

      The political innovation that made markets work so well is to counterbalance them with democracy, where the guiding principle is "one person one vote" (i.e. votes can't be traded away - the opposite of markets).

      Governments are associated with monopolies when market forces overcome democratic forces within the government. Then you get illicit market activity, such as kickbacks, blackmail, and unwarranted granting of monopolies.

    3. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by next_ghost · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When a monopoly grows big enough, it becomes the effective government. No support from formal government is required. Free market alone has no means to break down huge monopolies that have reached the stage of effective government. This stage of monopoly is impervious even to ridiculous amounts of internal incompetence which could bring down earlier stages quite easily. If you disagree, please tell me just one feature of the free market that is capable of bringing monopoly in this stage down that doesn't require existence of another monopoly of similar size and explain how this feature works while interacting with said monopoly.

    4. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Suki+I · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When a monopoly grows big enough, it becomes the effective government. No support from formal government is required. Free market alone has no means to break down huge monopolies that have reached the stage of effective government. This stage of monopoly is impervious even to ridiculous amounts of internal incompetence which could bring down earlier stages quite easily. If you disagree, please tell me just one feature of the free market that is capable of bringing monopoly in this stage down that doesn't require existence of another monopoly of similar size and explain how this feature works while interacting with said monopoly.

      Oh PLEASE stop with this business that the 'corporations' are really the government! (Some of the) People who own them can vote in elections, the shares don't vote for politicians. In a truly free market, the government is not erecting barriers to competition. Even Standard Oil was getting competition back before they were 'broken up' (if you want to call it that) from companies out west. The phone company was ONLY a monopoly when the government made it a monopoly. If YOU want to argue, rather than lie, YOU show an example of a monopoly that survived without the government protecting it.

    5. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the hell does this work? When at any point has a free market destroyed a monopoly?I think litigation and regulation are often what contrain a monopoly into failing.. If IBM could have just crushed Microsoft with goons when they realized their contract mistake, we'd have IBM Windows. If it weasn't for legal restrictions and regulation, Microsoft would never have beaten IBM..

      Oil, telephone, rail, communications, steel.. these were all broken by regulations and trust busting.

      I think you know very little of history and have not really thought you statements through.

    6. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A market isn't functioning, let alone "free", if there is a monopoly player in it. A monopoly is a market failure, and cannot be solved by the market. This is because the market for a monopoly product is a monopoly and its consumers.

      You should study economics instead of Libertarianism. The differences are vast.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    7. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Suki+I · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      How the hell does this work? When at any point has a free market destroyed a monopoly?I think litigation and regulation are often what contrain a monopoly into failing.. If IBM could have just crushed Microsoft with goons when they realized their contract mistake, we'd have IBM Windows. If it weasn't for legal restrictions and regulation, Microsoft would never have beaten IBM..

      Oil, telephone, rail, communications, steel.. these were all broken by regulations and trust busting.

      I think you know very little of history and have not really thought you statements through.

      Is competition too hard for you to get? We do not have that in regulated markets. We do in FREE markets.

      Microsoft never had a monopoly and neither did IBM. Even with them, market forces overtook them before their show trials were over.

      No, we had a big fancy politician talk about "trust busting" that carved out a bunch of sacred markets for certain corporations, enforced by the government. BTW, this is a rare response from me to an AC, don't expect another.

    8. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A market isn't functioning, let alone "free", if there is a monopoly player in it. A monopoly is a market failure, and cannot be solved by the market. This is because the market for a monopoly product is a monopoly and its consumers.

      You should study economics instead of Libertarianism. The differences are vast.

      You should study Friedman instead of Marx.

    9. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by selven · · Score: 1

      The government is a monopoly that survived without anyone protecting it.

    10. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, this is a rare response from me to an AC, don't expect another.

      And nothing of value was lost...

    11. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      If you can name an industry where an incumbent will have a lower cost of capital than the monopoly, I will call myself a Marxist. That is a BIG if.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    12. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to fall for the "Oh, but there's a bunch of dwarves that managed to scavange 1% of market share so the huge company with 99% of market share is not really a monopoly" semantics. If one or more companies can and do use their (combined) market power to screw both their customers and competitors, that's good enough monopoly for me. Those who are elected to enact laws are the formal government. Those who can abuse their power to make your life miserable if they want to are the effective government. As for the example of monopoly: Microsoft.

    13. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Terrible. Substitute "incumbent" with "newcomer".

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    14. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by shentino · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as an un-regulated market.

      Regulation will come either from a government answering to its voters, or a monopoly corporation answering to its shareholders. No matter how close those two alternatives may actually be, you cannot have a power vacuum and not expect it to be filled.

    15. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. All unregulated markets devolve into monopolies - ultimately, political as well as economic. That's why dictatorship is the norm throughout human history.

      That's quite possibly the most ill-informed statement I've read today.

      Food? Clothes? Housing? Electronics? Have you ever even LOOKED for a market breakdown on 99% of the goods and services you purchase?

      You *DO* realize that small business accounts for 99% of the business in the US, right?

    16. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 1

      Agreed, a market with a true monopoly player is not a free market.

      Disagreed that it's necessarily a market failure. In every single instance I can think of, monopolies arise as the result of state interference in the market, either directly or indirectly, which only happens in command economies or "mixed" economies, not in free markets.

      Studying economics, btw, is a common route to libertarianism.

      You appear to be tragically uninformed.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    17. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Suki+I · · Score: 1

      Name *one* that stayed a monopoly without government protection.

    18. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Disagreed that it's necessarily a market failure.

      And that's where you're wrong, since a monopoly does not represent an efficient outcome. In particular, a monopoly has price setting power, and will set prices above its marginal cost of production.

          If a market does not produce an efficient outcome, it has failed. That is the definition of a market failure.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    19. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      All unregulated markets devolve into monopolies

      Yeah, that's why we get all our services today from one big company. /sarcasm

    20. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Of course a monopoly is not an efficient outcome. Did you even read what I wrote before hitting reply? FFS. The point is that the market doesnt create this outcome. The state does. That is not a market failure, it's a political failure.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    21. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Except that larger businesses have lower costs of capital, and can produce more widgets than the competition at the same price. Markets tend to monopolies if a firm is already much larger than the others.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    22. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      Did you even try to comprehend the great grand-parent? Markets are inherently unstable, because those with more market power tends to be able to accumulate even more as time progresses. Anti-trust laws exist for a reason. The market is not the "savior" as you claim it to be, and government is not always bad, especially a government that is in effect accountable to the people.

    23. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I understand this guy. His real argument has nothing to do with economics, competition, nor 'freedom,' instead arguing semantics. His statements boil down to "a monopoly isn't a monopoly unless the government says so," which is true, but is a minor and technical labeling point in the discussion of economic systems.

    24. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Jessified · · Score: 1

      If the "market" buys this outcome with corporate lobbyists and campaign contributions (i.e. regulatory capture) then the market is a huge part of the failure.

      Imagine a huge corporation lobbying their way into a monopoly type situation. And then rather than call it a market failure, you say, "Well it's the governments fault for essentially taking our bribes! You should have known better than to listen to us!"

    25. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We just need the "right" people in charge, right? Like was asked above, name one example of a monopoly that survived without the government protecting it. People like you just spew what you memorized from some tenured socialist and you think that is the way it is. If the things are the way you say then provide the example she asked for.

    26. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, "looking for a market breakdown" is useless in the context you're asking for since looking around won't show off any unregulated markets...

      "looking" around me, combined with your 99% statement shows me circumstantial evidence that regulated markets work to prevent monopolies..

      "You *DO* realize that small business accounts for 99% of the business in the US, right?" I guess the regulated market works.

    27. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Suki+I · · Score: 1

      Worse than that. He doesn't know the difference between a monopoly, a cartel or an oligopoly. I am willing to concede over 51% of a market, if the market is properly defined (100% of 'IBM PC' is not a market). Somehow, they still cannot name a business that had a monopoly without the force of government behind them.

    28. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      You can't even apply free market principles to companies that are largely based around the government backed monopolies of copyright and patents. Those things are regulations, and those regulations help preserve monopolies. Same goes to telecoms, where the FCC et al create artificial barriers to entry.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    29. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yeah that's why the 1800s US had so many monopolies/oligopolies, because of all the regulation and state interference...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    30. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "name a business that had a monopoly without the force of government behind them."

      What use would this add to your argument? A market failure may still exist without needing any backing at all. Further, intentional 'market failures' may be desirable anyway in, say, providing aid to flooded cities or communications to small towns.

    31. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the "market" buys this outcome with corporate lobbyists and campaign contributions (i.e. regulatory capture) then the market is a huge part of the failure.

      The "market" has no lobbyists or campaign contributions, the market is not a player, it is the field on which the players compete. Blaming the market itself for the actions of would-be monopolists is nonsensical. Like claiming the field is at fault when players cheat. The field is an inanimate object, it cannot be at fault in any meaningful sense. But the umpires - the umpires who have tremendous power and the obligation to use that power fairly, justly - they may be at fault. The umpires in the market are created by the state - no other organisation has that power.

      Imagine a huge corporation lobbying their way into a monopoly type situation. And then rather than call it a market failure, you say, "Well it's the governments fault for essentially taking our bribes! You should have known better than to listen to us!"

      Not for taking *our* bribes but for taking *their* bribes, thank you, and yes, the root of the problem is clearly on the government side.

      It's a CEO's job to look after the business. If paying bribes is necessary to continue doing business, of course the CEO will be paying bribes. He didnt create the distorted market, he is just playing on the field he finds himself. It is NOT his job to look out for the general welfare, and even if he wants to he isnt in a position to do so.

      It is the state, not the commercial enterprise, which is tasked with looking out for the general welfare, and which has the power to do so. It is the state alone which has the power to "regulate" the market, for good or ill. If the state chooses to use that power to seek bribes, and to rig the market against those who do not pay them, this is no failure of the market, and it is no failure of the businesses who do what they must in order to compete.

      --
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      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    32. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 1

      The example that comes readily to mind of a monopoly at that time and place would be the railroads, and those railroad monopolies are in fact perfect examples of my point. These were built as much by cultivating legislation as by laying track. The land-grants alone make it clear that there was no free market involved.

      --
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      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    33. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Jessified · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A good response.

      Do note that I used the quotation marks on "market" for a reason. Of course the market is inanimate.

      The point I am trying to make is that the same people who blame the politicians for effectively taking corporate "bribes" turn around and complain that regulation is an unfair infringement on free markets. The whole point is that free markets cannot be simultaneously competitive and unregulated. You seem to recognize this, because you are saying that it is the responsibility of politicians to make sure that CEOs can't, for example, make bribes (that is, that the government, like an umpire, needs to put limits on players in the game...i.e. regulation). Every game has rules.

      BTW the same arguments you make to apologize for inscrupulous CEOs can be applied to less-than-ethical politicians. Politics is an expensive and dirty game, you can't get by without monetary contributions. That line of reasoning could be used to excuse any common crook ("He's just trying to make his way through this tough game of life. He didn't create this distorted situation, so he has no ethical obligations.")...it's just really weak logic.

      I believe you are saying that in an ideal world the free market should work perfectly and monopolies would not occur. Maybe!! But in an ideal world communism would work, too. There are variables like human nature which prevent either of these ideal situations from working in real life. IRL, free markets cannot be both competitive and unregulated.

    34. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by wizardforce · · Score: 1

      show me an example of a monopoly that didn't start with some corporation getting powerful enough to start influencing government to its own ends and thus ensuring the corporation's position.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    35. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by martas · · Score: 1

      i think we need a new word to describe a sector of the market dominated not by one, but a few very large units - say, instead of 'monopoly', we'll call it a 'polypoly'? [there probably already is a word for that, but whatever it is, i'm sure it's not as much fun to write as 'polypoly'. go ahead, give it a shot.]

      now, as far as i can tell, 'polypolies' aren't as bad as monopolies, but they're still problematic in many ways - they concentrate a lot of the wealth in the hands of a few, making it next to impossible for individuals/small groups to enter the market. and i have plenty of examples for that, retail probably being the most obvious. that's what walmart is - it's not a monopoly, it's a polypoly [heh, i love that word...].

      it sucks, but if you let demand determine everything, i think polypolies are inevitable. walmart can give you the best prices around, so people will go there. as people go there, they get bigger, and offer even better prices. a small mom and pop store doesn't have a chance to compete against that. you're right, natural monopolies seem to be rare without government support. but that doesn't mean complete deregulation leads to good things.

    36. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by martas · · Score: 1

      ah, just remembered, the word is 'oligopoly'. still, i like polypoly better...

    37. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by moortak · · Score: 1

      Standard Oil controlled a vast majority of the refined oil market and did it without the force of government.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    38. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 1

      A good response.

      Thanks.

      The point I am trying to make is that the same people who blame the politicians for effectively taking corporate "bribes" turn around and complain that regulation is an unfair infringement on free markets.

      You say that as if you see some inconsistency?

      I dont. Discriminatory legislation masquerading as "regulation" is the one side of the coin, bribery or improper influence of one form or another is the other side of the same coin. Quid pro quo. Get rid of one you get rid of the other. Why would businesses bother throwing money at congresscritters if those same congresscritters didnt have any power to tilt the market in favour of one against another? To ask the question is to answer it.

      You seem to recognize this, because you are saying that it is the responsibility of politicians to make sure that CEOs can't, for example, make bribes (that is, that the government, like an umpire, needs to put limits on players in the game...i.e. regulation). Every game has rules.

      Yes, every game has rules, and that means umpires, in one form or another. In our current system the politicians have the power to play umpire, and with that comes the responsibility to do so fairly.

      BTW the same arguments you make to apologize for inscrupulous CEOs can be applied to less-than-ethical politicians. Politics is an expensive and dirty game, you can't get by without monetary contributions.

      The difference is that a CEO never takes an oath to serve any other goal but profit, and lacks the coërcive power of the state. His job is to run a commercial enterprise successfully, which means turning a profit, and he is expected (indeed, required) to use any lawful means at his disposal to do so. A politician, on the other hand, takes an oath to serve the general welfare, and *does* wield the power of the state.

      I believe you are saying that in an ideal world the free market should work perfectly and monopolies would not occur.

      Well, depends on what exactly you mean by 'ideal world' I suppose but that isnt too far off. A free market may not work 'perfectly' but certainly better than any other option. Monopolies might arise in a free market under certain conditions, but without state power backing them they can only be ephemeral and unable to do the same sort of harm that a monopoly created and maintained by state power can do.

      IRL, free markets cannot be both competitive and unregulated.

      In a sense that is true, with a sufficiently broad definition of regulation. But regulation, understood that broadly, does not require a state; indeed it predates it.

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    39. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by epine · · Score: 1

      The "market" has no lobbyists or campaign contributions, the market is not a player, it is the field on which the players compete. Blaming the market itself for the actions of would-be monopolists is nonsensical.

      Welcome to Reductionism 101. It's also clear we can't blame the atoms. I think.

      In a richer view of the world, it's sometimes reasonable to regard markets as a human institution, built up from negotiated agreements involving many players, including regulatory bodies, whose actions are partly based on representations to the general public, for all it's worth.

      There was a capital market culture from 1950 to about 1980 that was reasonably stable. It was becoming frayed a bit at the end by algorithmic trading. No consensus lasts forever. Things change.

      Then there was a very different ideological consensus in place from the early Reagan/Thatcher years based Hayek and some loony rhetoric about the Laffer curve. I can't find the hilarious Martin Gardiner parody just now. It looked a bit like this:
      tworm.jpg

      A Google engineer has a decent blog post about Laffer-nomics in the button down MSM.
      A Laughable Laffer Curve from the WSJ

      But I would argue that if he's going to subtract Norway, he should also subtract the UAE, which isn't actually an observational data point anyway. Then what curve would you have? A graph of tax code loophole coverage, aka Swiss cheese. He points this out concerning the nominal 34% US corporate tax rate generating almost no revenue.

      The free trade component of this new consensus was relatively sane. The extent of financial market deregulation was not. And especially the oversight was conducted on the notion that if the ground underneath you is undulating slowly, you can't be anywhere near a cliff face. And don't put your ear to the ground to listen for industrial scale dollar excavation right under your feet.

      That market consensus is gone now. We're still too busy drip feeding blood into the wounded church looters to declare future policy.

      No, you can't blame an abstract market conception. But you can blame the markets we've actually built. And yes, the behaviour of a gas is determined by the behaviours of the constituent atoms, but sometimes we prefer to talk about the properties of the gas as if it actually exists.

      It's also possible to distinguish monopolies from the exercise of monopoly power. Long ago Microsoft infused $150m in cash into Apple when Apple was on the ropes. If Microsoft held those shares, they made a bundle (one site says $18b based on stock history). Microsoft likely held the power to yank Apple's life support back in 1997, but they were subject to constraints on the exercise of their monopoly powers. That didn't make them *not* a monopoly. Not every company waits until they've been fingerprinted by the FTC to exercise discretion.

      I think in any professional toolbox, the trick is to be able to sell solutions. It doesn't hurt to be able to sell solutions you believe in. And you do need to think a bit before jumping on a bandwagon.

      Long ago I invested a lot of energy mastering standard C++. But it was hard to find a project where I could actually use those skills because of the abortion known as MSVC, a calculated effort to queer platform independence. I didn't much enjoy programming in dialect of the damned. Kai C++ was wonderful, then Intel snapped it up, and it became code generator of the damned, not working so great for the AMD platform.

      How much could I seriously invest in mastering .NET before I'd wake up in a cold sweat and rush off first thing to read MS trade journals for any hint of future platforms whims that awaits me? Even Java made me nervous, on a much longer rope.

    40. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DeBeers.

    41. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You should study Friedman instead of Marx.

      Because there are no other economic theories in between, right?

    42. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Studying economics, btw, is a common route to libertarianism.

      Speak for yourself. Studying economics, for me, was a route away from libertarianism and back into pragmatic sanity. My technical mind kinda misses the simple, elegant solutions propped by libertarians, but simple things don't work IRL.

    43. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "The "market" has no lobbyists or campaign contributions, the market is not a player, it is the field on which the players compete."
      And yet everyone involved will try to rebuild that field to their own advantage.

    44. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Reading Ayn Rand books is not studying economics.

    45. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The example that comes readily to mind of a monopoly at that time and place would be the railroads

      This is because you know nothing about history at all, and know even less about economics. (Yes, you have negative knowledge about economics.)

      Please explain how Standard Oil was created by legislation. You know, the reason we have anti-trust laws?

      Or how the government made the National Linseed Oil Trust? No one cares about linseed oil, or even knows what it's for, but that monopoly managed to make it almost quadruple in price.

      For that matter, please explain how US Steel, which the courts said was a monopoly but wasn't engaging in any abusive practices, was created by legislation. Just a few different business practices, which they could have trivially done, would have made them an illegal monopoly....they were just smart enough to carefully not do them. (So this is a clear example of regulation causing monopolistic abuses not to happen.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    46. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      You *DO* realize that 'small business', as used in that statistic, simply means a specific kind of corporation, and includes doctors and lawyers (Which people don't normally consider a 'business' at all.) and corporations that make millions of dollars a day?

      Have you ever even LOOKED for a market breakdown on 99% of the goods and services you purchase?
      You *DO* realize that small business accounts for 99% of the business in the US, right?

      Yeah, let's pretend those two statements have anything to do with each other. Just because they are 99% of the businesses doesn't mean they are 99% of the goods and services people purchase. In fact, according to the government, despite being 99.7% of all businesses, they only employ half the employed people in the US. It would seem unlikely that half the people working are producing 99% of the stuff.

      Perhaps you should do the math. Start with your ISP, you're paying them every day. Are they a 'small business'? That food you're eating, was it made by a small business? Was it sold by one? The gas you bought, was it sold by a small business? Refined by one? Pumped by one?

      If the answer to any of those question is 'no', small businesses are not supplying '99%' of your stuff.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    47. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      All corporations do everything with 'government protection', you nimrod, because they don't exist without the government. They don't just magically appear out of thin air.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    48. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Jessified · · Score: 1

      All very good points.

      "But regulation, understood that broadly, does not require a state; indeed it predates it."

      Could you elaborate? I don't think I understand what you mean here. How could regulation predate the state? Is that to say that in a perfect free market the players would automatically self-regulate?

      I think before you asked for some examples of monopolies or near monopolies that didn't require state intervention to continue to exist. Would Google be an example (has the state propped them up?) Or Microsoft? (I suppose their intellectual property is essentially a state-backed monopoly.)

      If it were so hard for monopolies to exist in a true free market, then why would we need things like antitrust laws? Why should we have a problem with price-fixing schemes and cartels, if the market itself were capable of resolving these problems?

      Thanks for the discussions.

    49. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by cforciea · · Score: 1

      Man, I'd love to spend a day living in your world, where dogmatic statements about free markets can controvert hundreds of years of evidence and you can't understand why nobody else thinks the same way. The easiest thing to do is go back thousands of years to the dawn of civilization. Why do you think that virtually all of the oldest civilizations were hereditary dictatorships? They all formed in completely free markets with absolutely no government interference. That is the logical conclusion of a regulation free market. Or you could look a little closer in history and figure out when the advent of anti-trust law in the U.S. was. Are you going to tell me that U.S. Steel and Standard Oil were creations of the government? Or how about even more recent. Please explain to me how the government made Microsoft engage in anti-competitive behavior. They should teach Libertarianism in Religious Studies classes.

    50. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by dryeo · · Score: 1

      AT&T built up quite the monopoly with only the force of patent protection.
      And every company can exist only due to government regulations against things like killing your competition and stealing their property.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    51. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Standard Oil controlled a vast majority of the refined oil market and did it without the force of government.

      What a bunch of shit. I think the AC is right, you people ARE regurgitating crap from tenured socialists.

      The railroad monopolies, created by the government, enabled the Standard Oil monopoly.

      This is all right there in the decision by the courts in the Standard Oil anti-trust suit of 1909, where the court stated:

      Almost everywhere the rates from the shipping points used exclusively, or almost exclusively, by the Standard are relatively lower than the rates from the shipping points of its competitors. Rates have been made low to let the Standard into markets, or they have been made high to keep its competitors out of markets. Trifling differences in distances are made an excuse for large differences in rates favorable to the Standard Oil Company, while large differences in distances are ignored where they are against the Standard. Sometimes connecting roads prorate on oil—that is, make through rates which are lower than the combination of local rates; sometimes they refuse to prorate; but in either case the result of their policy is to favor the Standard Oil Company. Different methods are used in different places and under different conditions, but the net result is that from Maine to California the general arrangement of open rates on petroleum oil is such as to give the Standard an unreasonable advantage over its competitors

      Now stop using Standard Oil as an example of a monopoly that wasnt created through government influence. The government created the Railroad monopolies, and the railroad monopolies created the Oil monopoly.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    52. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      ..and as others have clearly forgotten, it was the railroad monopolies that created the Oil monopoly.

      Each regions respective railroads heavily discriminated against Standard Oil's competitors.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    53. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 1

      How could regulation predate the state?

      The modern state is quite a recent thing. If you look at say Saxon England, you dont have the modern concept of a state at all. yet you did have regulation in the broadest meaning - quite an impressive and organic system, in fact, which became the basis of English Common-law and thus of US Law, but which has parallels around the world, as close as Iceland and Scandinavia, as far away as the Iroquois Confederacy - as long as humans have been economic animals there have been markets, and as you said they cannot exist without regulation in the broadest sense.

      There there was no state, but organic customs that set and enforced the ground rules in a more-or-less transparent way.

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    54. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by moortak · · Score: 1

      They were able to leverage their market position over a government backed monopoly. They themselves weren't a government backed monopoly.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    55. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Please explain how Standard Oil was created by legislation. You know, the reason we have anti-trust laws?

      Its all right there is the courts decision on the matter.. you know, that case which was the reason we have anti-trust laws.

      The courts in 1909, the finder of fact, determined that the railroads gave Standard Oil a significant advantage by discriminating against all of Standard Oil's competitors.

      So your first question was easy.

      Your second question is silly because there was no monopoly. The Linseed Oil Trust was an example of market collusion by individual non-monopolies.

      Your third question answers itself. U.S. Steel was ruled a "monopoly" with (only) 67% market share, but was never broken up or regulated against because it wasnt doing anything wrong.

      The end result is that the market destroyed the "monopoly" by competing with it, which it was allowed to do because U.S. Steel wasnt doing anything wrong. It has less than 10% market share today.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    56. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      They didnt leverage a market position. They simply bribed the owners of the government created monopolies. This was the courts finding of fact.

      Are you second guessing the court on the issue of Standard Oil?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    57. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      Blaming the market itself for the actions of would-be monopolists is nonsensical. ... The field is an inanimate object, it cannot be at fault in any meaningful sense.

      The playing field most certainly does effect the outcome of a game. In football, they don't switch directions at halftime just for fun, you know. You've surely also heard the phrase "tilted playing field"? Referees have been known to make favorable and totally unfair rulings, and get away with it by excusing it as a "mistake". The fans also affect the game, or don't you believe there is such a thing as "home field advantage"?

      If paying bribes is necessary to continue doing business, of course the CEO will be paying bribes.

      Are you seriously condoning that corporate leaders commit crimes if that will advance the business? Pretty cavalier dismissal to label that as "just doing the job". Where does it stop? A bit of vandalism of competitors' stock? Pressuring competitors' employees to quit or customers to leave? Murdering them if they don't quit?

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    58. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The courts in 1909, the finder of fact, determined that the railroads gave Standard Oil a significant advantage by discriminating against all of Standard Oil's competitors.

      If you want to argue that the railroad monopoly caused Standard Oil, you can, but that's not the only reason they existed. They were just so extremely abusive a monopoly they used the railroads to help them be abusive.

      Your second question is silly because there was no monopoly. The Linseed Oil Trust was an example of market collusion by individual non-monopolies.

      Um, only if you've decided to define 'monopoly' so that it can't be a trust.

      Which it, in fact, can. The Linseed Oil Trust itself was a monopoly. It doesn't matter what non-monopolies it helped collude with each other, it was the monopoly.

      Your third question answers itself. U.S. Steel was ruled a "monopoly" with (only) 67% market share, but was never broken up or regulated against because it wasnt doing anything wrong.

      Which doesn't change the fact it could have.

      I quote the post I was replying to: 'In every single instance I can think of, monopolies arise as the result of state interference in the market, either directly or indirectly, which only happens in command economies or "mixed" economies, not in free markets.'

      There are two fucking monopolies I posted which inarguably appeared without regulation causing them: The Linseed Oil Trust and U.S. Steel.

      The fact that the first was a trust doesn't change the fact it was a monopolizing trust, and the fact the later wasn't an illegal monopoly doesn't change the fact it was a monopoly, it was just a legal one.

      Microsoft was also a monopoly that wasn't due to government regulation, but for some reason people think 'Oh, they had copyright, that's government regulation' excludes them, although that's stupid...copyright is no more 'government regulation' than normal property ownership.

      Obviously, in the strict sense, government regulation creates all monopolies, because government regulation creates all corporations. And, of course, government regulation creates all ownership, period, without which a monopoly would be pretty tricky.

      But somehow the people who are arguing that 'government regulations creates all monopolies' never want to do the next logical step of forbidding the government from creating corporations, or forbidding the government from issuing copyrights, or forbidding it from letting corporations own property.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    59. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Arker · · Score: 1

      The playing field most certainly does effect the outcome of a game

      Obviously.

      Are you seriously condoning that corporate leaders commit crimes if that will advance the business?

      Campaign contributions are not criminal acts.

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    60. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      There are two fucking monopolies I posted which inarguably appeared without regulation causing them: The Linseed Oil Trust and U.S. Steel.

      You started with the one that was arguable because...?

      Oh, yeah.. you didn't know that Standard Oil was created by a monopoly that only existed because of government interference.

      Now you are downplaying it, just like you are ignoring the fact that U.S. Steel only had 66% market share and then only for a few years.

      It only had this market share because it borrowed money to buy some competitors.. that the natural order of things was not for a monopoly to form, but the exact opposite.. that immediately after acquiring those companies, it began losing market share to the remaining competition.

      And no, monopolies and collusion are not synonymous. We have separate laws against collusion which apply with or without a monopoly.. as in the case of the Linseed Oil, which required no monopoly to violate..

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    61. Re:'Free market' means muddled thinking by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I said the other two are 'inarguable' because I simply didn't feel like arguing that Standard Oil wasn't caused by 'government interference'...but I guess I'll have to make that argument:

      All monopolies are, strictly speaking, caused by 'government interference', because all corporations are caused by government interference. They don't exist otherwise. Which is what makes the 'no monopoly exists naturally, it's all caused by the government interfering in the free market' claim so stupid.

      The Standard Oil monopoly existed because of perfectly normal land ownership laws. There was no 'government interference' for the railroads, they had no magical special rights to do stuff to their land.

      Granted, they owned that land because the government eminent domained it, and sold it to them, but there is absolutely no reason that the railroads, or the oil companies for that matter, couldn't have bought enough land to stop competing shipments.

      There might be a few people who refused to sell, but it's much easier to block something than to actually build something. You have to have an unbroken line to build, you can zig-zag to block. And considering that Standard Oil wouldn't need to build a pipeline anyway, they can bid more, and people are more likely to sell to them than their competitors. (Of course, in this hypothetical universe we have no functioning rail system, so I guess they would need to build something.)

      All corporations have 'government interference' in their past, which is incredibly handy for libertarians when trying to explain why they're monopolies. Sadly for them, in almost all cases the monopoly could have happened just as easily without government interference, or the 'government interference' is something that everything relies on, like private property laws or railroads.

      Guess what? If we didn't have private property laws, that evil 'government interference in the market', we wouldn't have monopolies either.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  25. Well, duh! by bradley13 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "Could it be that the free market ... actually tends toward monopolies?"

    That's economics 101: economy of scale means that a pure free market tends to monopoly. Why anyone should expect the Internet to be different escapes me. The usual argument is that the role of the government in a free market economy is to provide regulation to limit this tendency: first, by preventing the abuse of the monopoly (to prevent competition, or to take over related fields), and second, by limiting the maximum size of companies, if necessary, by breaking them up.

    The recent banking mess is a good illustration of the failure of modern governments. They should never allow companies to become "too big to fail". If a company has achieved such a size, the government has failed its regulatory responsibility - at the cost we all saw: hundreds of billions of dollars/euros of your tax money used to prop up companies whose mistakes should have simply bankrupted them.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Well, duh! by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      We ought to abolish Google and let new search engines pop up, and when one of those dominates, we rinse and repeat the process.

  26. Google as a monopoly by bmo · · Score: 1

    Google is a monopoly as long as the alternatives suck.

    Seriously.

    I have yet to see Bing, Yahoo, Altavista, Webcrawler, Lycos, etc, bring their products up to speed to offer better alternatives to Google's offerings.

    There is nothing stopping Microsoft making Bing a successful alternative to Google except maybe the poor algorithms they use.

    Oh yeah, and where are my advanced search functions, Bing?

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:Google as a monopoly by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      The problem is that Bing is too much focused on the average user. What google does right is that they are appealing to techies, and this gives them all sorts of extra benefits that MS is not getting.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
  27. Not monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These are not monopolies. A monopoly is a company that has complete command over a market, to the point where nothing else can possibly compete. These companies are large and dominant, but they are nowhere near being monopolies.

    Let me explain the difference through some examples. If Standard Oil had decided in 1910 to start charging $1 per gallon (a fortune in those days) they could have done it. People would have had no other choice, aside from abandoning petroleum altogether. There simply was no competition in too many areas. Similarly, if Ma Bell had decided to charge $1/minute for phone service, again people would have had no choice but to pay.

    In contrast, consider the so-called monopolies from this article. If Google started charging $1 per search, Google would have no more business. If Facebook started charging $1 per post, facebook would be gone. And those are in today's dollars, which are far less valuable than they were back in 1910 or even 1980. None of the companies listed have the ability to arbitrarily gouge their customers without losing their positions.

  28. What irony that comes from Murdoch. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Tim Wu has a piece up at the Wall Street Journal

    They speak of hating monopolies, yet that's what Murdoch wants to be.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  29. Citation needed by parent poster by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    N/T

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  30. can tech help? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The question here is: can technology help reduce our reliability on monopolies? Are projects like diaspora /opensocial viable? Will monopolists be able to keep up their information walls indefinitely? And can open source help out?

    1. Re:can tech help? by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      The idea is perfectly viable and I think it's the inevitable future of such services. The implementation is still lacking though and even after the implementation improves significantly, it'll take a lot of time due to snowball effect.

  31. Re:So diverse and individualistic, actually love t by StripedCow · · Score: 1

    This is actually what TFA says.

    --
    If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
  32. big and small monopolies by swell · · Score: 1

    TFA refers to big monopolies that are familiar to us all, but there are millions of small monopolies that also drive business.

    The USPTO gives monopolies to businesses and individuals in the form of Patents, Trademarks and copyright.

    Exclusive rights to something of value confer power to the owner. This is the core strength of all the big monopolies mentioned.

    Your local shoe repair shop will never have power because it owns no IP or other exclusive rights.

    Your local gas station is in the same situation except that it may have exclusive rights to the only viable corner in the neighborhood.

    But your local hacker who comes up with a patentable idea could skyrocket to wealth when Google buys his idea. Or he could just sit on it and prevent anyone from using it.

    Monopolies come in all shapes and sizes. They can benefit or hurt individuals, corporations, nations or consumers. This general discussion cannot lead to a simple answer about monopolies.

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
  33. You forgot the most important by Athrac · · Score: 1

    c) a company buys all the competitors

    Of course you won't find perfect examples of that because we do have some regulation preventing that. But even with regulation, that's the direction we're going towards. Each year top 100 companies in the world make up a bigger and bigger part of the world economy. And the entry barriers in pretty much any business today is so high, that new competitors don't just magically appear out of nowhere.

  34. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

    "This isn't Wikipedia. Grow up!"

    Exactly! Citations are only useful on Wikipedia. Who needs those silly things anywhere else?

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  35. It's about scale. by Dan+East · · Score: 1

    When it comes to the internet I think it's all about scale, not necessarily free market. For example, what scale (infrastructure, etc) is required to generate and update a searchable index of the entire WWW? Isn't the main appeal of Facebook the number of users it has?

    Being big is essentially a requirement - my point is whatever entity provides these specific services must be of at least a certain size in order to function or meet a critical mass of sustainability.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:It's about scale. by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Critical mass is a requirement only for services which separate their infrastructure from infrastructure of their competitors. Most services simply try to achieve dominance through vendor lock-up. However, vendor lock-up in Internet services is not as strong as it is in proprietary software so most monopolies are eventually going to lose to open competition (like Jabber, though I'm not sure if I can count Diaspora for technical reasons). The bad news is that it could take more than a decade before users realize that they should require open infrastructure where they can change service providers like socks instead of sucking up to the biggest closed player in the field.

  36. 7% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usa makes for about 7% of the internet users, why assume that it is your likes or dislikes that shape the darn thing

  37. Move along, nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Monopolies naturally form in industries that have increasing returns to scale. For example, it's hard to compete with Facebook, even if you have a better product, because initially no one has signed up for your service and therefore no one will want to (since they won't have anyone to friend or message).

    Monopolies naturally form in fields based on intellectual property. For example, someone can't just copy Mac OS X and start selling it (on a large scale).

    Information technology companies simply have natural barriers to competition and that is why companies can reduce supply and increase prices with impunity.

  38. HA ! by unity100 · · Score: 1

    i havent seen it put shorter, more precise than this. a very fat dog eh.

  39. belief. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    yours is just conditioned belief. you are either young, in or fresh out of college, or indoctrinated, or stupid. no offense, these are the potential possibilities.

    there wasnt any government interference back in early 19th century to late 19th century. and, at the end of that period, america ended up being owned by FOUR persons, which can be named even today. vanderbilt to rockefeller.

    the only way to prevent that, has been the regulations theodore roosevelt put.

    simply ; in a dog eat dog world, you end up with one very fat dog.

    read the below post.

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1847700&cid=34083272

    1. Re:belief. by Jessified · · Score: 1

      Wasn't the 19th century the time of mercantilism??? As in state-run monopolies and the ultimate nationalistic protectionist policies??

    2. Re:belief. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      mercantilism is from mid 16th centuryish until mid 18th centuryish. mid 18th century until early 19th century is age of enlightenment AND industrial revolution. industrial revolution continues until early 20th century.

      crown monopolies have been in the mercantilist era in between 1500-1720. 19th century, starting with 1820s and ending with 1900 was the great, free expansion era in especially united states, with all its land rush, opportunities, little rules and regulations. and it almost ended up with 4 people owning america.

      nationalism has no relevance to age of mercantilism. in between 1500-1720, the concept of 'nation' wasnt even in infancy. it was the high point of kingdoms and aristocracies.

  40. Yep, and it just happens to be faster online by Mike+Zilva · · Score: 1

    Microsoft took a bit longer to get it's monopoly without the internet because after all there was a real world distance propagation delay...

  41. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by hedwards · · Score: 0, Troll

    Admittedly this is anecdotal, but when I was using Bing for my searches I didn't notice any more of a skew than I did with Google. At this point with Google the first page or so is typically crap. Link farms regularly appear in the first page, as do sites which ask for a donation to see the information while including it at the very bottom so that they're technically in compliance with Google policy.

    In short Google doesn't have a better product. In fact the use of their dumb algorithm to do the searches has probably set the industry back several years. The reason people started using them was that they were fast and provided more relevant searches more quickly. The problem is that they did it by not even bothering to attempt to analyze the sites.

  42. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by hedwards · · Score: 1

    As much as I dislike MS, the reality is that Bing is really not a bad search engine. Which is typical of MS their products in areas that they don't control are frequently quite good, it's not until they own the market that the products start to really suck. There are exceptions like their mobile software platform, but it tends to hold up fairly well.

  43. god. by unity100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    dear fool, WHAT identifies a government, and a corporation ?

    if, a private entity owns all rights to a vast swath of land, all the resources and amenities that come from that swath of land, any rights that can be conceived over that land, arent they de facto ruler of that land ?

    so, if someone owns a vast swath of land as large as idaho or arkansas, then arent they de facto the government of that land ? because they own all rights to it.

    it is even the case today. the ONLY thing that is limiting their sovereignty there, are the laws that GOVERNMENT put out. if those laws had not been there, they would be able to do anything with that tract of land. its as simple as that. if they said that 'no people will drink water in this land, without paying to us', everyone would have to abide. if they said 'noone will be able to make homes in hilltops', they would have the right to it. if they said 'we are going to sell all the iron in this land to pygmies', it would happen.

    so, if you take the government out of the picture, any owner of anything becomes RULERS of what they own. its as simple as that. there is no discussing this. this was the historical foundation of feudalism and aristocracy. im not even saying this is a fact - this is the way things, societal dynamics work. if you let anything happen, you will eventually see some parties overpower others, and rule over them, in any manner conceivable.



    read some history, and less right wing bullshit.

    1. Re:god. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dear fool, WHAT identifies a government, and a corporation ? if, a private entity owns all rights to a vast swath of land, all the resources and amenities that come from that swath of land, any rights that can be conceived over that land, arent they de facto ruler of that land ? so, if someone owns a vast swath of land as large as idaho or arkansas, then arent they de facto the government of that land ? because they own all rights to it. it is even the case today. the ONLY thing that is limiting their sovereignty there, are the laws that GOVERNMENT put out. if those laws had not been there, they would be able to do anything with that tract of land. its as simple as that. if they said that 'no people will drink water in this land, without paying to us', everyone would have to abide. if they said 'noone will be able to make homes in hilltops', they would have the right to it. if they said 'we are going to sell all the iron in this land to pygmies', it would happen. so, if you take the government out of the picture, any owner of anything becomes RULERS of what they own. its as simple as that. there is no discussing this. this was the historical foundation of feudalism and aristocracy. im not even saying this is a fact - this is the way things, societal dynamics work. if you let anything happen, you will eventually see some parties overpower others, and rule over them, in any manner conceivable. read some history, and less right wing bullshit.

      Government has police power, businesses and citizens who form them do not. Yes, I know you are stupid enough not to know that.

    2. Re:god. by unity100 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      businesses do not have police power ? what do you think the private security firms are ? hell, in the last decade, that even reached private ARMY scale. blackwater is better equipped than any united states army platoon. already many companies take care of 'security' in their holdings ...

      such naivete ...

    3. Re:god. by Suki+I · · Score: 1, Interesting

      businesses do not have police power ? what do you think the private security firms are ? hell, in the last decade, that even reached private ARMY scale. blackwater is better equipped than any united states army platoon. already many companies take care of 'security' in their holdings ... such naivete ...

      You are using Blackwater, in their capacity as a GOVERNMENT contractor, all of their "police powers" coming from the government, demanded from the government even, as an example? HA!

    4. Re:god. by unity100 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      idiot.

      yea i called you an idiot, because you are not using an ounce of brainpower before shooting off an argument. the other option would be to take you as a disrespectful troll, and cut talking with you. instead, im calling you idiot. you can transplant naive, fool, rookie, whatever you want in place of it. they all point to the same point :

      blackwater company is a PRIVATE group which was allowed to do business as mercenaries. they are able to set up a private army, BECAUSE government has allowed establishment of private armies. basically, government 'privatized' the 'military sector'. its quite 'free market' and its quite 'ayn rand'.

      before government allowed their creation, private individuals wouldnt be able to set up armies. it was forbidden. government allowed this to happen, so now private individuals can set up armies, under the guise of "security contractors". a new business field has opened up, thats great, in line with 'free market'. after all free market should regulate it, shouldnt it.

      but now, there ARE private armies, owned and directed by private individuals. blackwater had contracted with government in iraq, but heaven knows how many other newly spawned private 'security contractors' have contracted which wealthy individuals or corporations or interests for doing what.

      so now, a megacorporation which owns some percentage of a state as private assets in someplace in usa, can actually hire a private army and put them there, for 'security'.

      first contractor being the government is irrelevant. what matters is, allowing creation of private armies. that means, military, army, is no longer in government monopoly, and private individuals can set up private armies.

    5. Re:god. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ignorance knows no bounds. You can own all the land you like and government can take it all away. Or worse, they can prevent you from using it for anything and still tax youfor the privilige. No business can do that.

    6. Re:god. by cforciea · · Score: 1

      And if a mega-corporation gets to the point where it can hire a private military force that is more powerful than that of the government? Corporations only do not have police power for as long as it takes for their budget to significantly exceed the government's ability to spend money on the military. And if one corporation gets big enough, they can significantly impact the government's bottom line, as well, so the possibility is not as absurd as you might think.

    7. Re:god. by lennier · · Score: 1

      Blackwater, in their capacity as a GOVERNMENT contractor, all of their "police powers" coming from the government

      I rather think Blackwater/XE's "police powers" come more directly from Colt and ArmaLite.

      Ultimately, "government" is nothing more or less than a mixture of fear and respect, with the fear coming from the credible threat of force and the respect coming from doing things that other people with respect want done. The first is often measured in bullets and the second in dollars and votes - but increasingly in dollars.

      In other words, if a person points either a gun or a suitcase full of cash at you and says "I' would like to suggest that I'm the boss of you", and you agree, that _makes_ them the government of you, regardless of what any piece of paper says. The "official" US Government just happens to be the people with currently the biggest suitcase full of cash and ammo, and employs people who work hard to keep it that way - but there are plenty of other players out there, inside and outside the USA, who would like to redefine that contract.

      The worry is that if we start devolving too many guns and bullets to private players like Xe, things might get really hairy if the USA's big suitcase starts to wobble. If you have one big player, everyone keeps a bit of order. If you have two or more trying to renegotiate at the speed of lead... that's when the bartender ducks behind the bar and chairs get broken.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  44. sorry by unity100 · · Score: 1

    i have exhausted my quota of debating against ayn rand bullshit a few posts ago. i wont be able to reply to you. other than that, all these are 'if this happens, if that happens', invisible hand etc are no different than belief in miracles of our lady of santa maria da rosaria and catholic church.

    its belief.

  45. Am I getting this right? by khallow · · Score: 1

    The premise seems to be that because there is a dominant player in a market, that we have a "monopoly". Here's the problem. None of the companies mentioned in the article have a monopoly on the market that they dominate. That's because competition still exists and there are alternatives for each of the businesses mentioned. Here's my take. If we applied the same low standard to a dozen randomly chosen markets in the world, we're going to find a few that happen to be dominated by a single business. In other words, the same phenomena seen here appears everywhere else as well. So I don't think the author can even claim that internet markets are more likely than any other market to tend towards market domination by a single player.

    PS, what's particularly striking is that Microsoft only gets mentioned once as a competitor to Google's "monopoly". Think about it, the premier example of the internet monopoly and they only get mentioned once in passing. That's what happens to dominant players, if they can't evolve out of their market niches.

    1. Re:Am I getting this right? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      It would probably be fair to call these things monopoly, but monopoly doesn't inherently equal an abusive monopoly. Google dominates the search market, but if Google results start sucking, I'll switch to something else. The frictional cost of changing search engines is pretty low in most cases. Thus, in order to maintain ~90% of the search market, Google has to keep having kick ass search results. It's true that a startup with marginally better results probably wouldn't be able to take over because the cost of switching wouldn't outweigh the benefits, but most people don't claim that free markets are perfectly efficient, but rather that they are more efficient than anything else.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:Am I getting this right? by khallow · · Score: 1

      It would probably be fair to call these things monopoly, but monopoly doesn't inherently equal an abusive monopoly.

      Why would it be fair? And why would it be a monopoly?

      The frictional cost of changing search engines is pretty low in most cases. Thus, in order to maintain ~90% of the search market, Google has to keep having kick ass search results.

      Because Google has competition, they have to keep "kicking ass". Thus, they can't be a monopoly (by definition). In other words, having 90% or more of the market share isn't good enough to be a monopoly because the competition can easily suck up every current google user (and for that matter, ad placer), if Google does something wrong. This is the point I'm getting at. The author of the original story says, "business X is a monopoly" without considering the brutal competition that most of these companies endure. Merely having a large portion of the market share doesn't make you a monopoly. You also need pricing power.

      What's particularly bizarre is that the company with perhaps the best pricing power, Apple, doesn't have the market dominance that one would associate with a monopoly. But they have pricing power due to the Apple brand.

  46. Give me a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    market forces overcome democratic forces within the government

    It is government that is the organization holding the special right to employ coercion as a means, not "market forces". No private group can possibly hold that right; otherwise, they wouldn't be private at all, but an arm of government.

    In other words, only government holds the key to government corruption, not "market forces". They can bribe government all they want, but if government takes the bribe, it is ultimately a deliberate decision on that part of government.

    1. Re:Give me a break by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      It is government that is the organization holding the special right to employ coercion as a means, not "market forces". No private group can possibly hold that right; otherwise, they wouldn't be private at all, but an arm of government.

      This is only partly true.

      The Mafia uses force, and is not a part of government. Admittedly, they do not have a "legitimate" right to use force. But this isn't a question of legitimacy. It is a question of money and power.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    2. Re:Give me a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean that 'mafia' that had willing accomplices in government, right>

    3. Re:Give me a break by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Mafia that the government failed to stop is sufficient. No accomplices in formal government are required.

  47. Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    3. I don't care if ANYBODY thinks gov't regulations is a 'good thing'. Gov't is terrible from my perspective for every single one thing completely and fully.

    So, children should still be working underground until they die from exposure to their working conditions? Workers should be born into debt to the company hospital? Slavery should still exist if it's economically viable?

    Really, no one takes you seriously except for yourself.

    1. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Should children be still working from age of 5 on the fields? Should children be given an opportunity of being something more than a subsistence farmer?

      The capitalism allowed children to be more than that. Yes, some worked in terrible dangerous conditions, that's not a reason for any gov't involvement ever.

      It may be a reason for private interests to have a union, I am not against totally private unions, they make sense in an economy just as much as a business makes sense.

      Gov't intervening does not make any sense and it ends up destroying economy.

      As to 'workers being born into company hospital', tell me something, how much better is it to be born into the gov't caused debt, into gov't caused economic disaster that will destroy economy and currency and all jobs? How much better is it?

      Should slavery exist? Did gov't really stop slavery or was slavery stopped by people? Business will use the cheapest form of labor, but realize that gov't didn't protest much AT ALL to that when slavery existed.

      Gov't has a job - protect liberties and freedoms of its citizens, I am not arguing against this point.

      I don't take you seriously either because you cannot argue me at all on points.

    2. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      Gov't intervening does not make any sense and it ends up destroying economy.

      GDP per capita stats are dominated by strong regulatory states, not weak ones. The rest of your crazed ranting cannot change reality.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

      1 Luxembourg $78,409
      2 Qatar $78,260
      3 Norway $51,985
      4 Singapore $50,180
      5 Brunei $47,930
      6 United States $45,934
      — Hong Kong $42,653
      7 Switzerland $40,484
      8 Netherlands $39,877
      9 Ireland $38,685
      10 Australia $38,663

    3. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Singapore is where lots of action is in Asia and where regulations are much more lax than in US or Europe. Qatar is an exporter of oil, known as emirate state.

      Luxemburg is a 'country' of 500,000 people. I suggest you go there if you haven't been, I was just in London last week and went through Belgium and into Luxemburg before going further my way. They are a producer of actual refined materials and chemicals. They are also an investment hub.

      None of these countries spend on wars, they also pretty much do not print money, imagine that.

      However US doesn't even belong in that list on that line. The US GDP is fake, like most of information you will keep finding about it on the web.

      The CPI is fake, the inflation rate is fake, the GDP is fake. Everything about US economy that is reported by the gov't is false.

      Hong Kong is an extremely free market oriented economy with competing private currencies, maybe you should look into HK dollars, they are cute. They also are printed by different private banks and are backed by production capacity.

      HK also has very low taxes: 8%, 14% and 20% depending on your bracket, and that's it.

      Switzerland, I enjoy my canton because there is no federal income tax there.

      It has the money of the world and almost no taxes only user fees.

      Ireland... you'll hear soon about Ireland. It's going down, it's a disaster.

      Australia is a raw material exporter, they'll be fine.

      ---

      All these countries import Chinese products, some are running deficits now, but except US nobody is running wars and insane levels of military spending and their social spending is actually much lower than what US has it at.

      ==

      What is funny about you, is that you have not a single clue about the actual world that is around you.

    4. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      What is funny about you, is that you have not a single clue about the actual world that is around you.

      That's a lot of shit to spew to end up not saying a single thing about the efficacy of regulatory economies. Nearly every single country in the top 100 has a strong regulatory economy.

      Let me remind you of your assertion that you have failed to support: "Gov't intervening does not make any sense and it ends up destroying economy." Yet you can name no economy that's doing well that doesn't have an intervening state authority and regulated market.

      You are still pathetically, laughably, and predictably full of shit.

    5. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      All economies with gov't intervention are suffering because of gov't intervention.

      US is suffering, UK is, France is, so is Greece, Ireland. USSR has collapsed.

      All this while Hong Kong is growing, China is growing, Singapore is growing, Taiwan is growing.

      The point is not to find a country that has no gov't intervention. All countries have gov't intervention.

      The point is to understand why the economies are dying.

      --

      USA was created artificially, as somewhat of an ideal system, with federal gov't being pushed down and held down. Over 100 years from 1800 till 1913 the gov't was learning how to get away from that repression and it learned the tricks, it turned itself around and became the power that it was never supposed to be.

      Now that power is destroying US economy and some other economies in the process by destroying their currency after they have destroyed their free market ideas.

      You are siting Hong Kong and Singapore and Switzerland and Qatar as examples here, but they are not examples of anything you stand for.

      It's much easier to do business in Hong Kong than in Singapore, and it's much easier to do business in Singapore than in US. Switzerland has no federal gov't anywhere near with power of US gov't over US states. Switzerland's federal gov't can't even impose federal income taxes.

      Qatar is an oil exporter and importer of all other items and goods.

      You are insane if you are comparing any of these economies to US, but it's not that you are truly insane, it's that you are what you accuse me of being: full of shit.

    6. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      You're dodging the question again. You assert that strong governments destroy economies, but you cite China, Singapore, and Taiwan as growing economies as if they weren't strong states with strong regulations. Fucking Singapore? The same nation that has a blanket ban on chewing gum? China... China?

      I don't think the other voices in your head are still taking you seriously.

    7. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am not dodging any questions.

      China, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Switzerland do have much more relaxed attitude towards business regulations, they do not regulate businesses the way the social paradise of US or Greece or France or Italy or Spain or UK does.

      China. Yes, China. In China opening a business is a breeze. That's why so many people return to China. Of-course not everybody wants to be in China directly, so many move to Singapore or Hong Kong, but the idea is the same, yes. Business is much simpler to start and to operate and to succeed in when you are in China than if you are in USA.

      The reasons are crazy regulations and high income taxes and labor laws and minimum wage laws and insurance laws etc.

      Patriot Act is a very simple example of a regulation that makes USA unproductive and uncompetitive and prohibitively expensive. So is any other bill passed by US gov't. ANY subsidy to a business, any tax, any regulation, any rule, any and all of them are killing US and all these other highly socialistic places in terms of competition for production of goods, so this kills the trade balance and drives up deficit and gov't never stops spending, there is nobody to tax, gov't prints money, currency is debased, etc.etc.

      Those voices are in your head, but they are not helping you it seems at all.

    8. Re:Bullshit by khallow · · Score: 1

      So, children should still be working underground until they die from exposure to their working conditions? Workers should be born into debt to the company hospital? Slavery should still exist if it's economically viable?

      Who enforces that bullshit? Government. I appreciate what you're trying to argue here. But you really need to get on your game.

    9. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      Germany is far more socialist than the US, and is second only to China in raw exports, and second to very few across all economic measures. Your arguments are as hollow as that spheroid travesty you call a head.

    10. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      In reality, democracies are run by people, not some magical entity called "government."

      I think you would have found a very different result on plantations in the south if the slaves were allowed to vote. Alas, the wealthy didn't want anyone else to have that privilege. You should count yourself a proud member of that tradition.

    11. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am in Germany right at this very moment.

      I buy my own healthcare out of pocket, but there is a national system as well, clearly. So that is 'socialist'.

      However banks in Germany are not insured by anything close to 'FDIC', that's not socialist at all. The fractional reserves in those banks is set by gov't standard, that is socialist.

      But Germany has much laxer regulations on actually doing business than USA does.

      Example:

      Generally, vendors of food products do not need a special registration or permission to do business, as long as their merchandise conforms with legal standards, such as the specific informational and labeling requirements, and as long as they do not pose any danger to consumers' health. Nevertheless, customs authorities may stop and investigate food imports. They especially may require an official laboratory report proving the product's safety, if a national or European institution has given an alert on the item/s.

      USA (Atlanta):

      You are legally required to obtain a business license, register a sellers permit, and file a dba certificate. A business license is required by all businesses and because you sell items that sales taxes must be collected, you need the seller's permit. Finally you need to register a DBA because the trade name you do business under must be registered. You can also form an LLC or Incorporate instead of filing a DBA.

      so even this simplest of examples shows the actual difference. The triangle that you call your head must have just exploded... yet nothing of any value was lost.

    12. Re:Bullshit by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Business is much simpler to start and to operate and to succeed in when you are in China than if you are in USA.

      The process of receiving a bullet in the back of the head for economic crimes like fraud, embezzlement, and tax evasion is also *much* simpler in China than it is in the US.

      Yep, sounds like pretty lax regulation to me.

      Anyhow... You were saying...?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    13. Re:Bullshit by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      That's not regulation, that's weeding out the stupid who do stupid shit and get caught.

      I left a comment in this thread responding to the moron over there, showing that as an example in Germany you don't need a license to be a food vendor AS LONG as you are actually doing the correct thing - making sure that you are following the correct food handling procedures, but if you do not follow procedures and you get caught, it means your ass - fines and who knows what other sanctions.

      OTOH in USA you need to get various licenses, vendor permit, sellers permit, dba certificate...

      That means that before you start a business you already have to deal with a bunch of bureaucratic nightmares, this obviously means that startup costs go up and it cuts off a bunch of people from doing business before they even start.

      --

      So my point is that it is much easier to do business, to start business in Asia and even in Germany than it is in US in many cases. This relates to gov't subsidizing monopolies, creating monopolies, creating regulations that kill competition before it even starts. Then there are crazy taxes, rules, regulations you have to comply with while running a business, takes the joy out of otherwise interesting work as well.

      Patriot Act made it impossible for new start ups in fund hedging, you have to become an IRS and CIA rat basically, you have to set up systems, logs, control and check points, you have to prove you have all of that working. Then there are enormous amounts of regulations concerning what you can even OFFER to your customers and all of this was created by gov't, who subsidizes the existing banks/insurance firms/hedge funds, in many cases it was created as a knee jerk reaction to these gov't created monopolies taking advantage of their customers BECAUSE they have no competitor they can really go to.

      Then the new start ups have to somehow comply with all these regulations, that were created with huge existing monopolies in mind, for who all of these regulations are a minor issue, no problem, they have cash flow, it's just a small cost and very easy to fit into existing structures they have, and given they are also subsidized and bailed out they have basically no risk to themselves doing any of this.

      But if you are a private individual today in USA, you actually have to be a millionaire to even try and start your own hedge fund and you probably will fail anyway because the field is rigged, you are not subsidized by gov't, because you'll be paying outrageous taxes that existing monopolies all have exemptions for since they are part of the system.

      --

      Bullet in the head for an insignificant number of cases for doing something wrong? That's a tiny price to pay for a working economy.

    14. Re:Bullshit by khallow · · Score: 1

      In reality, democracies are run by people, not some magical entity called "government."

      Unless you had a point to make, this observation is totally worthless. The people who run the democracy have distinct, specialized roles and are easily separated from the people who don't run the democracy (eg, the voters and non-voters).

      I think you would have found a very different result on plantations in the south if the slaves were allowed to vote. Alas, the wealthy didn't want anyone else to have that privilege. You should count yourself a proud member of that tradition.

      I'll consider you a proud member of that tradition too.

    15. Re:Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

      The tax collected as a percentage of GDP in Germany is 40.6%. The tax collected as a percentage of GDP in the USA is 28.3%.

      And you think Germany is less socialist than the USA? You're fucking retarded.

      God willing your trust fund runs out sooner than later.

  48. ehhhh by unity100 · · Score: 1

    you may be born before me, but, apparently im still much older than you, since i have better comprehension. find me one pointer in the post you replied, which points to you as the person who is fresh out of college. or, is understanding posts from one's ass an oldtimer specialty ?

    1. Re:ehhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is understanding posts from one's ass an old-timer specialty

      I was wondering how long you could refrain from making a reference to another guy's ass.

      Not very, long, as it turns out.

  49. Mod Parent Tard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/c

  50. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by iserlohn · · Score: 1

    This morning Google gave me 20 results for a search, none of which answered by question. So I tried Bing - 0 results. Several other specialist queries later, so result so I gave up.

    People don't switch products unless they feel that the new product is significantly better. So, nuff said.

  51. Yet another clueless economist by yuberries · · Score: 0, Troll

    Competition needs not actual competition; as long as the market is free for new investors to come in, competition already exists. The "monopolist" can only profit as much as it would cost the second best entrepreneur to come in. But that's something I suppose only Austrian Economists fully understand, so it's inevitable that people will be clueless for decades to come still.

    Also, the state is the biggest monopoly of all. Those inherently opposed to monopolies should consistently oppose it - yet most do not. They look for the greatest monopoly to swallow all others, never accomplishing anything that was allegedly intended. That's because the state cannot increase competition, it is analytically impossible. All the state can do is restrict, forbid, restrain. Every time it breaks a monopoly for example, it creates a cartel of higher prices.

    http://mises.org/journals/rae/pdf/rae9_2_3.pdf

    1. Re:Yet another clueless economist by Canadian+Window+C'er · · Score: 1

      Further, it sounds like 'monopoly' is being used like it's a dirty word, but is a monopoly automatically a bad thing? I'm not asking is it ever a bad thing, but rather is it fundamentally a bad thing.

      Regards

    2. Re:Yet another clueless economist by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

      You cannot have a monopoly without a group who are monopolized.

      So the question is, do you mind being somebody's property? And if not, do you have the ability/awareness necessary to move out from beneath that monopoly?

      Where it gets dangerous is when said monopoly manipulates your awareness and ability to seek something different.

      -FL

  52. All those monopolies by Katchu · · Score: 1

    All those monopolies competing one against the other!

    --
    Keep Doing Good.
  53. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by Quince+alPillan · · Score: 1

    http://advice.cio.com/shane_oneill/bing_search_tainted_by_pro_microsoft_results

    This has been around for a while, and was referenced on Slashdot.

  54. Interface ripping by tepples · · Score: 1

    Everyone wants a common interface - but you are not allowed to just rip

    You might be surprised at how much ripping U.S. courts will allow. See, for example, Lotus v. Borland : Borland made and sold a 1-2-3 workalike with the same menus, Lotus sued, Lotus lost in the Supreme Court. The end result is that menu text in a computer program is not subject to U.S. copyright.

  55. MPAA controls the US news media by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    The political innovation that made markets work so well is to counterbalance them with democracy, where the guiding principle is "one person one vote" (i.e. votes can't be traded away - the opposite of markets).

    Mass media broke this. The parent companies of five movie studios control U.S. television news, which in turn controls the general public's awareness of issues and of candidates. Notice that TV news hasn't covered ACTA or other issues where the public could stand to gain at the expense of the MPAA or vice versa.

    Governments are associated with monopolies when market forces overcome democratic forces within the government.

    This has in fact happened. U.S. voters by and large do what the TV tells them.

  56. Network effects by tepples · · Score: 1

    With Facebook, the resource you are accessing is not necessarily the social network platform itself but its other users, and the users of Diaspora and Appleseed are a rounding error. It'd be like trying to start an alternative to AT&T before the breakup: if all your contacts are on the big network, and you can't call anyone on the big network from an alternative network, you have no choice but to use the big network. Likewise, as far as I know, you can't use Appleseed or Diaspora to friend someone on Facebook or like a group on Facebook, and you can't use Tumblr to follow the feed of a Twitter user. And under "Comparison of VoIP software", can software other than Skype call a Skype user?

    For Apple you recommended Microsoft and Ubuntu. Like Facebook, Apple provides a platform for the resources you want to reach, namely applications. The applications that one can run on an iPod touch are usually not available for Zune or for whatever Ubuntu-powered handheld device you are thinking of.

    What alternative do you recommend to the Microsoft-Nintendo-Sony oligopoly on local multiplayer video gaming? Apparently there aren't a lot of games with a mode designed for PCs connected to TVs because there aren't a lot of PCs connected to TVs, and vice versa.

    1. Re:Network effects by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      For Facebook, the alternative would be to be an added network which may eventually supplant the old network, which isn't that outrageous to do. I'm sure there are lots of people who have myspace, facebook, and twitter accounts without any negative repercussions. Apps wouldn't really be an internet thing, and Apple isn't actually the dominant force in smartphones. TFA said that Apple's dominance is in online content delivery (iTunes), and there are lots of alternatives, including decentralized peer to peer networks.

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    2. Re:Network effects by tepples · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there are lots of people who have myspace, facebook, and twitter accounts without any negative repercussions.

      So when you post status updates on Twitter, Tumblr, Identi.ca, or Facebook, you have an application that sees what you have posted and reposts it to the other three networks. Is that what you were thinking of? That'd be like having one mobile phone and phone bill for Verizon, one for Sprint, one for AT&T, and one for T-Mobile, so that you can call people on other networks.

      Apple isn't actually the dominant force in smartphones.

      It is in North America, where Nokia has little presence. And smart phones aren't the entire market; some people want a device that doesn't cost $600 or come with yet another $70 per month phone bill. Can you name some smart MP3 players that are in major electronics store chains across the United States, other than iPod touch? I checked Sears and Best Buy, but I could find neither Archos 43 nor Samsung Galaxy Player 50.

      TFA said that Apple's dominance is in online content delivery (iTunes), and there are lots of alternatives

      Again, iTunes Store is a platform through which a user obtains major-label music and videos. The "decentralized peer to peer networks" that you mention usually either lack major-label music and videos or have only infringing copies.

    3. Re:Network effects by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      So when you post status updates on Twitter, Tumblr, Identi.ca, or Facebook, you have an application that sees what you have posted and reposts it to the other three networks. Is that what you were thinking of? That'd be like having one mobile phone and phone bill for Verizon, one for Sprint, one for AT&T, and one for T-Mobile, so that you can call people on other networks.

      It varies. As far as status updates go, the could be more or less put into one application. For everything else, you check your facebook, your myspace, etc. Most of these services have email notifications, so you can check your email and find out who has sent you messages.

      It is in North America, where Nokia has little presence. And smart phones aren't the entire market; some people want a device that doesn't cost $600 or come with yet another $70 per month phone bill. Can you name some smart MP3 players that are in major electronics store chains across the United States, other than iPod touch? I checked Sears and Best Buy, but I could find neither Archos 43 nor Samsung Galaxy Player 50,

      It's been a while since I've seen the numbers, but I think blackberry has a larger market than Apple in the US, and Android is pretty competitive as well.

      Again, iTunes Store is a platform through which a user obtains major-label music and videos. The "decentralized peer to peer networks" that you mention usually either lack major-label music and videos or have only infringing copies.

      Infringing copies play just as well as legitimate copies on any device you have. In fact, they generally don't have DRM, meaning they play on more devices. Copyright infringement does act as a competitor to prevent certain abuses of a monopoly. As far as legit services go, Amazon has comparable selections to iTunes, and I'm sure there are plenty of other services that compare pretty well.

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  57. free market / monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As much as I agree with people stating that free market is a temporary period before stronger entities devour others and things stabilize as (mono|duo|oligo)polies, I think that services industry (like custom web development) will have place for lots of players for some time.

  58. Democracy tends towards duopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "failure of modern government" you mentioned is IMO a result of a familiar economic process: elimination of all other players by the most cunning/brutal ones. The situation is probably not likely to change due to the population having been "trained" by media that serve the two winning entities.

  59. Slashdot Economics by tabdelgawad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Only on slashdot would such economic bullshit (and the socioeconomic bullshit referenced within) get modded +5 insightful and repeated ad-nauseum. Free markets do NOT tend towards monopolies eventually. The vast majority of markets are not monopolies and are in no danger of becoming so, regardless of government intervention or regulation. The evidence on this is so overwhelming I wouldn't know where to begin. In fact, there are so few examples of natural/existing monopolies (where the efficient scale of production exceeds the size of the market) that we tend to use the same examples over and over in classrooms and textbooks (public utilities).

    The internet and information goods have some interesting characteristics (e.g. network effects) that tend to encourage consolidation, but even in this area, changing technology and consumer preferences tend to overthrow dominant firms (e.g. Microsoft).

    And yes, I'm an economist.

    --
    Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
    1. Re:Slashdot Economics by Baldrson · · Score: 1
      You can't simply hand-wave away network effects in the free market. When a guy like Bill Gates gets to sit on the potential of Moore's Law and trash it for literally decades of 18 month doublings, we aren't dealing with petty theft.

      And yes, I do mean THEFT because the tax base is not charging even approximately the costs of maintaining property rights -- such as control of MS-DOS hence Windows -- it is geared around taxing producers via the 16th Amendment.

      A rational market tax system would approximate a mutual insurance company for indemnification of loss of property value and guess what that means?

      Taxation of net in-place liquidation value at something like the risk free interest rate of modern portfolio theory.

    2. Re:Slashdot Economics by dinolocks · · Score: 1

      Well, "tend towards" and "are" are two different things. The fact that vast majority of markets are not currently monopolies does not negate the concept that they tend towards it. But honestly, I think all of your ire comes from the usage of the word monopoly instead of oligopoly. I believe the thrust of this article and the comments you are railing against is the idea that in older markets, there will most definitely be larger companies. I believe what most people in this thread are saying is that it becomes harder for smaller start ups to coexist in a market place with giant companies since giant companies have large amounts of leverage to throw around. The only companies who can compete with that type of leverage are companies who also have massive leverage. Speaking as an economist then, would you still say that free markets don't tend to oligopolies? Whether you shared the concept that free markets tend towards oligopolies, would you say older free markets are ever or often good for garage start ups?

    3. Re:Slashdot Economics by tabdelgawad · · Score: 2, Interesting

      First, oligopoly is a far cry from monopoly. Barring collusion (which is illegal under anti-trust law) oligopoly markets can be extremely competitive, leading to razor-thin profit margins, low prices, rapid technological change, and consumer choice: compare the current mobile OS market to Windows in the 90s, or even the cell phone service market to pre-1980s AT&T.

      Second, successful companies continue to grow to achieve scale efficiencies, but at some point, 'bigger' starts to bring its own problems of lack of agility and innovation and uncoordinated management. Anyone who watched Microsoft or Detroit's big three stumble can see this. So there's a limit to how large a company can/should grow based on the nature of its business.

      Third, whether a market becomes an oligopoly or not depends on the overall size of the market relative to the efficient size of a company. The extreme case of a natural monopoly happens when the size of the market is smaller than the efficient size of the company (so there's room for only one), but in most cases, the market is large enough to accommodate several firms of efficient size.

      Finally, just because a market is an oligopoly doesn't mean the same players remain successful and continue to control the market. Changing technology and innovation create a lot of churn (Schumpeter's creative destruction). This is particularly true in the IT world where leaders can quickly lose their edge to small upstarts and the game is changing at break-neck speed. A few years ago, Asus was a name known only to geeks, now it's a household name churning out millions of netbooks each year. A year ago, nobody gave a shit about 'tablets', now it's the rage with a few unlikely names poised for success (Samsung?!). There's still plenty of room for 'garage' innovation here, and lots of venture capital to see it through to commercial success.

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      Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
    4. Re:Slashdot Economics by crabboy.com · · Score: 0

      To those modding parent as flamebait: just because you disagree doesn't make it flamebait.

      --
      The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money
    5. Re:Slashdot Economics by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In fact, there are so few examples of natural/existing monopolies (where the efficient scale of production exceeds the size of the market)

      According to libertarian party line, there is no free market today, and there has, in fact, never been a true free market before (when the failure of the markets in 19th century which lead to the Gilded Age is pointed out, they're quick to say that it was still not free). So the low number of monopolies is entirely consistent with the claim that government regulation is required to keep it that way.

      And yes, I'm an economist ... Imposing Libertarian views

      That does not speak well of your credentials as an economist, then. It's like saying "I'm a physicist, promoting luminiferous aether".

    6. Re:Slashdot Economics by dinolocks · · Score: 1

      To your first paragraph: I agree that oligopolies are healthier than monopolies for innovation. But I wouldn't say they are the healthiest market place. The reduction of competition in anyway seems detrimental to the variety and innovation competition brings. While there should be a useful price drop as economies of scale come into play, I fail to see how in a market place filled with only larger companies, their leverage tend toward helping consumers.

      To your second paragraph: I agree there is a limit to a size a company should grow if their consideration is just what makes the best product/service for the consumer, I disagree that that is the common stopping point. Your assertion makes it seem like because they have been disadvantageous to consumers they would instantly wither and die, but in fact as their power grows they begin to acquire a range of additional abilities to re-balance the market place in their favor, consumers be damned.

      Your third paragraph brings up an interesting point of discussion. If I understand you correctly, I agree that all markets of sufficient size tend towards oligopolies. It is rare that an actual monopoly with occur though (and we might disagree here) I contend it is because that is when government regulators finally step in.

      Finally, wouldn't the inclusion of venture capital as the only way to compete in that market place be proof that at some point and oligopoly is more hostel to garage start ups? The only people who can compete in it already have more than a garage worth of money.

    7. Re:Slashdot Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The above poster couldn't be more wrong, and btw this issue has nothing to do with ideology. It is fairly easy to show, using game theory and many other tools based on decision theory, that free markets invariably lead to monopolies. That is why you will not find a free market anywhere in the world. Or do you think that anti-trust legislation and all the other market regulations in place worldwide where invented just for fun? Read a good book on economic theory, it might surprise you.

    8. Re:Slashdot Economics by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of markets are not monopolies and are in no danger of becoming so, regardless of government intervention or regulation. ...
      And yes, I'm an economist.

      Only on Slashdot would an economist spouting naive orthodoxy be modded to +4 insightful.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    9. Re:Slashdot Economics by unity100 · · Score: 1
      'oligopoly'. it isnt a 'far cry' from anything. it doesnt matter whether a single company controls things, or some small number of mega firms do, or a handful of companies which are proxied behind proxy corporations, corporate holdings and subsidiaries dominate everything. it ends up the same : a hierarchy, an order which is no less feudal than medieval times, end up. with even less number of controlling percentage of population sitting at top, and ensuring continuance of the order. and the masses are kept in check by the promise of 'making it', just like how they were kept in check by the promise of heaven in afterlife in middle ages.

      moreover, as it was replied to you by someone else :

      The above poster couldn't be more wrong, and btw this issue has nothing to do with ideology. It is fairly easy to show, using game theory and many other tools based on decision theory, that free markets invariably lead to monopolies. That is why you will not find a free market anywhere in the world. Or do you think that anti-trust legislation and all the other market regulations in place worldwide where invented just for fun? Read a good book on economic theory, it might surprise you.

      you people are no different from radical religious believers. you believe something, and you dont even heed any kind of indicators to the fallacy of your belief. i suppose even what's below wont have any effect on you

      http://www.google.com/search?q=adam+smith+regulation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    10. Re:Slashdot Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bravo! What else is sad is all of the well informed posts that get modded down for not towing the Soviet line.

    11. Re:Slashdot Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this is the kind of evidence economists think are enough to put out to support a point, it's no wonder why it's considered a soft science with very little credibility. Good job! Derp

    12. Re:Slashdot Economics by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      You're obviously assuming that the big players will never, ever abuse their market power to keep startups too small. This assumption is false. Oligopoly may be highly competitive... or not. I live in a small EU country where all banks are owned by big European bank houses. Instead of fierce competition, our banking system is actually a testing ground for the big bank houses to see what ridiculous fees they can come up with and how high can they take them before they completely piss their customers off. There already was an antitrust investigation with no effect. The banks in question have no collusion, they just follow orders from their foreign owners.

      The only room for "garage" innovation is in land rushes. Upstarts can be successful in a land rush and become giants but they have no chance of attacking established markets directly. And if the old giants don't bet everything on one product, land rushes are not that dangerous for them. That's as far from open market as you can get.

  60. Flawed article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with the article is that it assumes that the Internet is one huge homogeneous market. In fact, it is many markets almost as diverse as the real world, but all using the Internet as a delivery mechanism. Of course some companies get bigger than others, but only in their respective markets, and often in markets where being big is an advantage, like search and social networks. Other markets, however, are not subject to monopolies.

  61. Well said by dhammabum · · Score: 1

    Then you get illicit market activity, such as kickbacks, blackmail,

    lobbying, donations, special access ...

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    I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
  62. Quit complaining. by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

    Monopoly is such a scare word, ESPECIALLY on the internet. If something better comes along people will eventually tend towards that. People are scared of Google? What do you expect? Google is simply phenomenal at what it does. If something better comes along, then people will use that, like they did when people switched to Google in the first place. Myspace died because Facebook was better. Facebook will probably eventually die out, too. It works, it works well, and people will continue to use it as long as it works well.

  63. Monopolies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, but people really have to lookup up what this effing word means. The very fact that he claims the internet is ruled by monopolies (plural) rebuts his whole argument.

    I have a lot of choice online, choosing one service that is better or I prefer more then another is not a monopoly. Only having one service available to me is a monopoly.

    I tire of success being equated to monopoly. The moment one company pulls away from another and sells more product or makes more profit naturally the internet becomes littered with cries of monopoly, especially in light of the fact that while it may not be easy to compete against these companies, its not impossible.

    Monopoly = the absence of choice. It's economic definition is "a market in which there are many buyers, but only one seller". When did Google become the only thing on the Internet?

  64. People CAN be controlled. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Google, I would argue, is not a true monopoly as I define things.

    Google still requires public assent, ("We all like this option and so we give it all the power!"). People can still collectively choose something different. Google, however, is buying into the infrastructure which makes it possible to choose and become informed. If they were to use those muscles to quash competition in subversive ways, and if they were successful at this, then they would become a monopoly and we would be owned.

    People have the conceit to believe that large human populations cannot be contained, programmed and controlled. The Free Market only works if we are free, but in many ways, we are not.

    The interesting part is that we are made up of collections of set and predictable behavioral reactions. It takes awareness and will power to break those reaction cycles, but most people, and I mean nearly everybody, never attains the self-awareness necessary to accomplish this. The Ego gets in the way. People THINK they achieve self-awareness and self-determination, but really, their reactions are not only predictable, but easy to control without their being aware that they are only choosing within a set of pre-determined and controlled boundaries.

    The American two-party political system as controlled by the global banking elite is an example of this kind of illusory "free" market. There are options within it, but really, to break out of its primary bounds is very difficult. -Especially when people are so totally programmed to not ever question it or even see it. The control level extends right down to our basic beliefs about reality and the soul.

    Many of the economics specialists and students quoting their knowledge here are, in fact, caught in a type of semantic control. The system will not teach you that you are slaves. It will teach you to be happy within the system and to not see beyond it.

    -FL

  65. Title's a bit wordy by billyoc · · Score: 1

    s/the Internet//

  66. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    There have been a bunch of such stories about Bing as well. Every time, someone eventually points out that this is due to fluctuations in the page ranking algorithms, and you can just as well come up with queries slanted for the "other side". Or get the same kind of bias from Google.

  67. nope by unity100 · · Score: 1

    thats the point. if things go more in the direction the right wing wants, government wont be able to do ANYthing regarding your land. 'private rights', 'individual liberties'. 30 senators including mccain had given objections to a bill that prevented companies from putting contract clauses in their contracts with female employees, that held them not to sue the company or the rapists, if they were raped by company employees while working overseas.

    their reason was 'government should not be able to tell private citizens how to conduct their business'.

    so in short, they are saying that, if a private company lets its employees rape each other, it should be able to do so, if they drop a contract clause preventing rapists and company from getting sued.

    this was an actual hearing, in u.s. houses. it was an actual bill. the 30 senators objected to it were actual senators. one of them, was the presidential candidate of the last election. these are real people.

    this is where ayn randists want to end up. and youre saying 'government can take it away'. yeah. not if they get their way with 'no government'.

  68. Re:Perhaps there are reasons unrelated to monpolie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And then Microsoft proves that they did it by "un-fixing" the results a few days later.

  69. +1 Insightful! by Arker · · Score: 1

    "The "market" has no lobbyists or campaign contributions, the market is not a player, it is the field on which the players compete." And yet everyone involved will try to rebuild that field to their own advantage.

    Exactly! This is the key conundrum of human government.

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  70. USA has monopoly on the homosexual agenda by Snatch422 · · Score: 0

    Covert drugging, anesthetized sleep, or disabled consciousness surgeries, implanted devices, bodily abuse and mind abuse
    Advanced and clandestine surgical or abuse techniques to cause target to be essentially unaware.
    Covert drugging with anesthetics such as needle injected Propofol (also known as the "milk of amnesia") or a gas such as Chloroform administered through a hose into the sleeping area of the target or by a rag over the target’s mouth and nose.
    Using directed energy weapons to maintain a sleep state in the brain of the target.
    Brain surgery to install a mind control chip that simply allows the conscious mind to be disabled when a target is asleep so they remain unconscious making drugging unnecessary.
    Plastic surgery on the face, nose and rectum to make a "designer face" or a "designer rectum."
    Cochlear implants for inner ear transmissions covered up with eczema behind the lower back crevice of each earlobe.
    Tracking device implants in center of left eyebrow, upper right earlobe or right armpit.
    Tear duct implants.
    Rectal pain suppression implants.
    Beating forearms or calves of target.
    Wedging items between teeth to move teeth out of or into alignment.
    Designing dried nasal mucus in nose of target.
    Skin conditions in places hidden by clothing but noticeable to the target (specific harmful topical creams and chemicals such as nail polish remover which are well known to scientists/dermatologists are generally used): eczema, psoriasis, warts, acne, moles, in-grown hairs, in-grown toenails, freckles, strange hair growth.
    Mouth sores especially canker sores.
    Ear and eye infections.
    Tap water drugging.
    Medically necessary surgeries or operations to maintain health of target.

    Signs (upon awakening):
    Needle injection marks especially on upper right (or left) arm, forearms, back of fingers, back, stomach, ankles, and calves.
    Ability to easily cause bruising by squeezing sites of needle injection marks.
    Object the size of a grain of rice especially if found in eyebrow, upper earlobe or armpit.
    Eczema behind lower back crevice of each earlobe to cover up cochlear implant surgery.
    Feeling the post-anesthetic type of drugged-out dazed and confused mental effect.
    Unexplainable severe pain in limbs.
    Strange skin problems.
    Strange mental (conscious or subconscious) feelings or sensations.
    Homosexual and degenerate behavior recruitment campaign
    Lust themes including sexually degenerate behavior, homosexuality, poly-amorous lifestyle, infidelity, pedophilia, bestiality or other fetishes.
    Designed by corrupt and perverted psychotherapists and psychologists who study and practice sexual identity manipulation.
    Designed experiences to destroy sexual fantasies and make women seem unappealing.
    Homosexual and liberal messages in mainstream media.
    Attempting induction of homosexuality through geographic location in known areas with large populations of homosexuals.
    Use of all boys and all girls schools or summer camps.
    Attempting to incarcerate or institutionalize the target such that they can be raped in jail or prison or in the hospital where nobody will believe them or be able to communicate with them. This type of rape is also referred to as mind rape as the mind is conscious during the rape as opposed to being raped while unconscious during sleep.
    Unconscious Body Manipulation
    Sexual abuse.
    Forced swallowing or injection of hormones to give a hyper-masculine sexual drive.
    Genital manipulation: Penile eczema or scraped off skin on the bottom center of the shaft or tip or on the left or right front tip of the penis, excessive penile hair growth on the base of the shaft through hair growth creams and hormones, scrotal stretching.
    Symptoms of genital manipulation: eczema from chemical such as nail polish remover or skin scraping plainly visible, painful and stretched out scrotum.
    Anal manipulation: clandestine serial rapist(s) performing rape or sometimes special gang-rape rituals involving sodomy and

  71. Contributory copyright infringement by tepples · · Score: 1

    some people want a device that doesn't cost $600 or come with yet another $70 per month phone bill.

    I think blackberry has a larger market than Apple in the US, and Android is pretty competitive as well.

    As I said, some people don't want another phone line. There are plenty of BlackBerry and Android counterparts to the iPhone, but which counterpart to the iPod touch do you recommend that people try?

    Copyright infringement does act as a competitor to prevent certain abuses of a monopoly.

    But in my home country, it is considered contributory copyright infringement for the maker of a device or service to promote it primarily for use with infringing copies. A&M v. Napster; MGM v. Grokster. For this reason, few established companies will try making a bullet point out of ability to play warez.

    1. Re:Contributory copyright infringement by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      As I said, some people don't want another phone line. There are plenty of BlackBerry and Android counterparts to the iPhone, but which counterpart to the iPod touch do you recommend that people try?

      Probably some archos handheld, or a MID. You might even argue that a netbook competes to some degree. And once again, apps are not internet businesses, so it's not even relevant. App store kind of is, but half of those have competition even on the iPhone through web sites anyway.

      For this reason, few established companies will try making a bullet point out of ability to play warez.

      I agree, but the entire point I'm making is that you don't need a company for some kind of competition. iTunes is competing with piracy, which keeps their prices lower than they would be if people somehow weren't capable of piracy.

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  72. The subject of competition is dominance by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

    I really wonder at the fundamental stupidity of the surprise that free markets tend towards monopoly.

    Free market capitalism involves competition for profits. The point of gaining profits is to invest them in future production, for increased profits. A successful competitor wins a decisive advantage over the unsuccessful competitors. Competitors in a free market are competing to be monopolies, and the prize for winning a round of competition is the means to become a monopoly.

    Professional team sports, with rules to enforce competitive equilibrium and a reset of standings each season, notoriously suffer from the problem that successful teams have more resources to recruit players and coaches than less successful teams. How much more the case would it be if successful teams got to claim the best players and staff from the losing teams at the end of each game?

    The only way I can imagine a free market with a level competitive playing field persisting is if there's a level of state intervention that would be more heavy-handed than a completely monolithic and centralized command economy. I would prefer a democratic socialism, in which the competition occurs between debaters proposing policies in a democratic theater.

  73. Restocking fee by tepples · · Score: 1

    Probably some archos handheld, or a MID.

    The advantage of iPod touch over "some archos handheld, or a MID" is that an individual can walk into a Best Buy store and try the former but not the latter. A handheld device bought online that turns out to be unusably unergonomic for the buyer leaves the buyer $100 out of pocket in shipping, return shipping, and restocking fees. Apple has a monopoly on in-store demonstrations of Wi-Fi-only MIDs in that size range.

    You might even argue that a netbook competes to some degree.

    In fact, I've described iPad as what Apple makes instead of netbooks.

    iTunes is competing with piracy, which keeps their prices lower

    Piracy costs several thousand dollars even when done by a home user. Capitol v. Thomas.

    1. Re:Restocking fee by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Apple has a monopoly on in-store demonstrations of Wi-Fi-only MIDs in that size range.

      I suppose I'll grant you that rather odd niche that isn't really internet related.

      Piracy costs several thousand dollars even when done by a home user. Capitol v. Thomas.

      Statistically, it costs basically nothing for home users. Every lawsuit they bring against individuals is a huge net loss, so they aren't going to sue more than one person a year. Let's say 100 million people pirate a year in the US, and that when the lawsuit is over, they end up paying a million dollars. Averaged against the people who don't pay, that's a penny per year per person for piracy.

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