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Stuxnet Virus Now Biggest Threat To Industry

digitaldc writes "A malicious computer attack that appears to target Iran's nuclear plants can be modified to wreak havoc on industrial control systems around the world, and represents the most dire cyberthreat known to industry, government officials and experts said Wednesday. They warned that industries are becoming increasingly vulnerable to the so-called Stuxnet worm as they merge networks and computer systems to increase efficiency. The growing danger, said lawmakers, makes it imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer."

195 of 254 comments (clear)

  1. We should thank Israel, or whoever by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a wake-up call to a new vulnerability. There are a helluva lot worse ways to have found out about it than this relatively innocuous version. It also exposes stupid weaknesses like the fact that all Siemens PLC's (programmable logic controllers) have a hard-coded password that was never meant to be changed, and that all the obscure proprietary software in the world on PLC's doesn't mean jack for security--because they all still have to take their orders from a machine running it software on regular old Windows.

    We could have realized these vulnerabilities only after a bunch of stuff started exploding.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by poetmatt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      this is a wake up call to a new "cyber-vulnerability"! Oh noes! I said the word cyber! It's not a threat, it's a cyberthreat!

      yes, this is the hype they want you to believe. Stuxnet is something to be concerned about, but adding the word cyber is just bullshit hype all around.

      the rest is just calling into play Siemens shitty programming ethics which are now going to bite them in the ass as businesses and government will probably shy away from business with them until this can be fixed.

    2. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by mevets · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We also could have foreseen these vulnerabilities.

      I used to work in industrial automation - in its pre-windows era, and people did put effort into isolation, access control and validation.

      After having made the bad decision to deploy on Windows, when years of evidence that it had a horrendous lack of access control, how did Siemens just continue on? What were they thinking?

    3. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Thomas+Charron · · Score: 1

      Security? If I have a physical piece of hardware that could cut someones head off, why exactly would I have it connected to a network?

      These PLC's operate with a swarm sort of mentality. The network is merely a method for them to communicate. Kind of like how your light switch authenticates you to turn on and off a light.

      Oh wait, it doesn't... OMFGz0rs, someone could cause a fire by turning on the light without authentication!

      --
      -- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
    4. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh noes!

      Just fucking stop that, okay?

    5. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, according to Captain Hindsight, we should have secured our PLC's and SCADA infrastructure better years ago.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    6. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the problem is that even if your PLC's aren't networked--the laptop that reprograms them may be at some point (and can be infected with a virus). Even if you pull your whole infrastructure off the network, it doesn't ensure security if Jim the IT guy is using the Step 7 laptop to surf the web, or if any yahoo can stick his thumb drive into said laptop and give it a digital STD.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    7. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      This is not new vulnerability, this is old vulnerability called "security through obscurity". Designs of nulclear power plants are not open for review, which leads to these kind of flows quite naturally.

      --
      839*929
    8. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by wmac · · Score: 1

      This is indeed the way Iranian PCs in nuclear sites were infected. Some people brought the worm inside using USB drives and laptops (based on the intelligence ministry of Iran).

    9. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      I have a piece of hardware that could potentially bludgeon someone or knock them into other equipment that could cut something off (it's a pipe bender, to be specific), and it's connected to a network because our management decided that the operator shouldn't need to be able to read blueprints, but rather a different personnel will read blueprints and create part files that instruct it what to bend, which will be moved to that machine over the network. /sigh

    10. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by squizzar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Every time someone suggests a Windows based system in _any_ critical situation plenty of people come out shouting how it will undoubtedly lead to the end of the world. Hindsight doesn't even come into it - the possibility of these scenarios was predicted, brought to people's attention and dismissed.

      'Captain Hindsight' parodies people who appear out of the woodwork to say what is now blindingly obvious, not people who had the foresight to predict these problems but were ignored.

    11. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Those bender units are notoriously unreliable and surly.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    12. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by JWW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yep, you and the GGP post are correct, this was a foresight issue. I too was in a position where I was asked to replace reliable, effective, and secure Unix control systems with Windows based systems.

      It was a ridiculous play for the new eye-candy, and "usability" (why do you need general application usability on machines that should be running only ONE program?). Just the fact that there were now Windows machines on the production floor led to enormous headaches. All kinds of access controls and system policies and restrictions and processes needed to be put in place to keep these machines functioning even reasonably well, where the Unix boxes (and X-terminals) they replaced were ROCK SOLID.

      Now the industry will pay for using the quick and easy and VULNERABLE hardware to run their process control systems.

    13. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by dunezone · · Score: 1

      What were they thinking?

      The customer uses Windows, thus we need to make our solutions work on Windows.

    14. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      all Siemens PLC's (programmable logic controllers) have a hard-coded password

      A Siemens PLC has no such hard coded password. In fact, if the plants in question had activated the write protection options provided by Siemens PLC's, then there would have been no way for the worm to change the PLC code (without the worm knowing the plants' password). Any manufacturer's PLC would have been vulnerable in the same way, if the customer didn't make use of the security features provided.

      The password confusion is related to a vulnerability in the WinCC visualization/operator software, which runs on a Windows computer, and communicates with a MSSQL database. It is the database password that is fixed in the Siemens software, and there has been a team created to address this, and other potential security concerns.

    15. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Everything, everything, is a reason for "new government controls" these days. If the TSA groping 3-year-old girls isn't a wakeup call to the gradual march of fascism we seem to embrace, I don't know what is.

      "Threat"? I don't care. "Cyber-threat"? I don't care. I don't care what the threat is any more. I have more than enough government, and I want less! The biggest threat by far is our government, and it's time to de-fund the whole stinking mess.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      You have paid the price for your lack of vision.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    17. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wake up call? new?

      Lots of IT pros have been screaming for a DECADE that only complete fucking morons put a SCADA system on anything that is connected to an external network. Let me repeat that. ONLY A COMPLETE MORON will hook up a scada system to a pc that bridges the internet and the secured network, OR puts the whole damn thing on a unsecured network.

      Guess what, Complete morons are the managers of these places, these complete morons do not want to buy extra pc's so they have the employees check their email ON THE SCADA computers. OR they do something stupid and not lock them down and allow the users to install and run software on them.

      This is not a new problem. Those of us in IT have known about it and have been yelling at the idiots in charge for a long time now. IT's just this is the first real "BITE THEM IN THE ASS" that has happened and got a lot of publicity.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    18. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because the customer is too stupid to use a different OS for the single application that needs to run on that?

      If you think that you need to run Office on the SCADA computer, please throw yourself from the nearest building as people who think the way you do are the cause of this problem.

      "Hey dave, the nuclear reactor computer, you think it will run Netflix?" Yup: you're the problem.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    19. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      What idiot would program the system with a general purpose laptop? All parts of a SCADA system are supposed to be seperated including the programming pc. you sneaker-net the sourcecode to the programming pc, you compile it there. Only infection vector is to infect the sourcecode in a way that makes the compiler execute the virus. reduces the infection vector to that of military top secret levels.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    20. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      By all means, stop paying taxes. Consider it a protest.

    21. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      An idiot who has the choice between wipeing a laptop and reinstalling the OS, or actually getting home on time tonight.

    22. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, some retarded fringe protest is the opposite of what we need. What we do need is people to wake up to the gradual increase in totalitarianism, and stop being OK with it. We still have a functioning democracy, and any every intrusive government agency can be destroyed entirely with a stroke of a pen. Every single world event is an excuse to make out government stronger and more intrusive if we let it be so, but we can just as easily decide that enough is too much, and put and end to it.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    23. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Fire that idiot.

      Write program on whatever you want, take SOURCE CODE on a CD (sorry no usb stick, that is not secure) to the secure programming workstation, compile there only after a scan of the files on the cd.

      If the idiot cant figure that out, he really needs to be fired.

      Stuxnet and other viruses can not infect the sourcecode unless the compilers are so borked they will execute the virus for them.

      Better yet, require development be done on a secure machine.

      Downloading updates? only download using a known clean LiveCD to download to a disk that you format inside that live CD.

      This is not rocket science, just security 100 level stuff.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    24. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by poetmatt · · Score: 1, Informative

      lets do another simple example.

      de-funding.

      so we stop funding our science program, or space program, or social security, or welfare, or our government employees.

      notice something? one of those is not like the other.

      what do you think happens if we scrap social security? Do you think it's going to affect high income folks? No, they have money set aside for windfalls. Do you think it's going to affect middle class and low income folks? Yes, and that will crush our economy.

      just a fyi. Social security money is given to people and then spent. Tax cuts or not giving money to the gov't are saved and not spent.

    25. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      ONLY A COMPLETE MORON will hook up a scada system to a pc that bridges the internet and the secured network, OR puts the whole damn thing on a unsecured network.

      As someone that worked on SCADA software for about a decade, I wholeheartedly approve this message. With very few exceptions, every bit of SCADA code I saw makes [insert favorite insecure software target here] look like Fort Knox. You do NOT want the internet getting anywhere near that code.

      P.S. Thanks, Slashdot, for making me log in to IE to post. I still can't copy/paste in Chrome.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    26. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, that's not really true. It is more likely that front-line staff who did know better and customers/citizens will pay the price for management's/government's lack of vision, which isn't the same thing at all.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    27. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Is it just me who find it ironic that a virus alleged to have been created by two governments is used as a pretext for giving the governments more powers to "defend" against cyber-threats?

    28. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      "And for what reason did they do it? "

      Uh, to prevent their being murdered? DUH.

    29. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All of the above. Less government funding. Less government taxing (except we can't in practice, but it's still desireable). Fewer government employees, especially at the federal level. But all of that is secondary: less government intrusiveness in my daily life is the main thing.

      Here's a clue: roads and NASA and pretty much everything else that the feeral government does that's actually productive is down to less than 20% of the budget. The vast majority of the budget consists of money taxen from less-politically-favored individuals, and handed directly to more-politically-favored individuals.

      But even that's just money. The money part is only interesting because were out of it, and can't borrow any more. The real problem is the continuous growth of the government having a say-so every action in my daily life. We have a name for this: totalitarianism. And we seem to grow more accepting of it every day, allowing both political parties to continue to encroach on daily life.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    30. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Our science program and space program and, well, every program that produces something - roll all of them together and it's still peanuts. Social Security, Medicare, the precription drug progam, and government pensions will fail - it's not an "if" any more, but a "when". In order to meet the obligations we have made in these areas we would need to collect an additional one million dollars per taxpayer over current tax levels. It's not about whether you're for it or against it on principle, the money just isn't there. We can face reality and find a way to exit gracefully while providing for those who counted on the promises that were made, or we can ignore reality until the whole thing implodes.

      But that wasn't my point at all. My point was the we need less government intrusiveness into daily life. When the government starts fondling children we've simply gone to far.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    31. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      Oh, it's better: a virus created by an allied government is the excuse to increase our government's power. Nice, yes?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    32. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Smiths · · Score: 1, Troll

      Oh Grow up. Iran has not attacked any of its neighbors in the past 60 years. Israel has done it dozens of times and Israel is in violation of more than 50 UN resolutions.

      The fact that critical thinking so quickly goes out the window for so many people when the govt says 'Iran wants to destroy us' is indeed, sad.

    33. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of NASA's budget goes to contractors, who in turn make huge donations to the politicians who vote on the appropriations. Is that your idea of "productive"?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    34. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, they produce something, which is a stark contrast to most of the budget's transfer payments from the more-favored to the less-favored citizens.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    35. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Ok wait. Defense, social security and medicare are the other 80%. Eliminating Defense entirely would cut 20% of the budget. Are you saying that social security and medicare are less "productive" than NASA?

      Just curious.

      https://financialpostbusiness.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/us-budget-deficit.jpg?w=620&h=434

    36. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Iran's proxies in Lebanon have been attacking Israel repeatedly for over 30 years.

      Iran's security services have gone further afield, and bombed Jewish sites in such places as Buenos Aires.

      And Iran's president has openly spoken of nuking Israel. It should hardly be a surprise that Israel would act in hopes of depriving him of the means.

    37. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      (Psst. Stuxnet targeted a system that wasn't connected to an external network)

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    38. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yes, NASA is "productive" in the most straightforward sense of that word. They produce a good or service. They're terribly inefficent cost-wise, but then they direct a lot of open-ended research, so that's not the biggest problem. Transfer payments to a more-favored citizen from a less-favored citizen produce nothing. Defense produces, well, defense, a topic too controversial here to include. The link in my sig shows the other large budget items with exact amounts.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    39. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Bill+Dog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From a post of yours further above, I don't think we can "just as easily decide that enough is too much" any longer in this country, because maybe about two thirds of us are actually cool with more govt. control of things. I'd say about half of those have been duped, but the other half are the dupers. And about half of the latter group are prolly actively trying to implode the system, considering it too immoral to salvage even for transformation.

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    40. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      How do you get the word out for a candidate on the national - or even state level - when the media and political parties often conspire to exclude third party candidates (SEE: the Presidential Debates of the last 40 or so years)?

    41. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      we've definitely gone too far on many things - I'm just saying that people need to look at what.

      to just go wah big government big brother doesnt' say shit and certainly doesn't make an impact.

      I didn't mean that as you specifically, but you know, that people need to define things. I'm tired of the republican agenda of "we need less government". I'd gladly support an agenda that actually gives examples and of things backed up with research - yet we have no such political group, and it's left more to science folks.

      I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying let's look at a goddamn solution. Why do we have to tax everyone a million dollars? Why can't the wealthy 1% contribute 85% and we split that other 15% of the cost between the entire rest of society, adjusted by poverty? It sounds sad, but guess what? It'd be damn fair. (note: numbers pulled out of my ass, just trying to make an example) The rich bear the burden of that which they have positioned themselves for.

    42. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      Serves them right.

      A closed system controlling important hardware should NEVER have open USB ports. It's that simple. It's security 101.

      If you cannot disable them completely in a password-protected BIOS/UEFI, just use some superglue in the USB plugs.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    43. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      In the primaries of the party closest to your view. The primary system is multi-party within a Party. The Tea Party proved you can unseat incumbants this way, if you're not alone in your views (and if you are alone in your views, democracy can't help you). The official Party money will always go to defend incumbants, but that's not always enough to prevent change.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    44. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      ? Why can't the wealthy 1% contribute 85% and we split that other 15% of the cost between the entire rest of society, adjusted by poverty?

      We tried that experiment already. It doesn't work, because of the Laffer Curve. The thing about the wealthy? They're savvy about money. Raise taxes too much and they will change their behavior, and the economy will suffer to the point you actually raise less tax revenue overall. This isn't theoretical. Think especially of small business owners (who are the most likely to have high incom, as opposed to wealth): that's a damn hard job, and people aren't going to live with the stress and hours of running a small business unless the compensation is there.

      Also it's fundamentally unfair - and the whole concept of "the government has designated a group of people as unfavored, and is taking their property" should set off all sorts of alarm bells. Why is it suddenly OK if the basis of discrimination is class instead of race or religion?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    45. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I don't care what the threat is any more. I have more than enough government, and I want less! The biggest threat by far is our government, and it's time to de-fund the whole stinking mess.

      Ah yes, the Republican mantra. Government isn't perfect, so we should kill off all those good things it does first and foremost...

      The TSA overreaching is a serious problem, but it's now getting public attention, which will likely lead to forcing them to step back.

      As for every other major problem we've had in the past deacde... its pretty well all corporations behaving like criminals wherever government oversight hasn't yet reached, or has been rolled-back. It certainly wasn't the government causing the housing bubble, or forcing huge financial firms to fully leverage themselves in subprime mortages. In fact its government regulations dating from the 1940s that kept us from having problems like this in a good 60 years.

      The government didn't create Enron, they just stopped regulating the industry and them run wild and manipulate the market. The government didn't create BP, or tell them to fuck-up their offshore drillingoperations, it just dropped the ball on the authority it had to monitor them for safety violations.

      If you want to cut down the government, don't try vague, nebulous crap. Say what you're actually going to do. The two huge money sinks in the us government are medicare/social security and defense spending. The rest is a relatively tiny fraction. Which would you like to eliminated? And don't do the typical republican thing and pretend that we can drastically reduce spending eliminating some nebulous "waste" you're only going to do it by cutting real, actual services. So talk about what you want to get rid of, and you might be able to form a real, intelligent conversation about the best direction for the country.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    46. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      Hey now, this is a *pipe* bender, only girder benders are notorious for being surly. =p

    47. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Smiths · · Score: 1

      There is a different in pre-emptively attacking someone and attacking someone because they invaded and took over your land.

      Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon for 15 years...they bombed them willy nilly 4 years ago...to this day they occupy Lebanese land.

      when Israel stops building settlements outside of their border they'll stop being attacked, every freedom loving person should support that. Iranian or not. Also the quote you mention is a LIE unless you can show me a citation.

      I suggest you broaden your views on I/P.

      http://imeu.net/#panel-1

    48. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      There is a different in pre-emptively attacking someone and attacking someone because they invaded and took over your land.

      Actually, no. War is war.

      Lebanon declared a state of war with Israel in 1948, and has never, ever withdrawn it.

      Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon for 15 years...they bombed them willy nilly 4 years ago...to this day they occupy Lebanese land.

      Lebanon has sent raids into Israel sporadically for 60 years. Israel has done the same on a different scale. War is like that.

      when Israel stops building settlements outside of their border they'll stop being attacked, every freedom loving person should support that.

      The government of Iran holds that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are authentic, and that Jews must be reduced to subjugation and attacked wherever they are.

      Which is why the government of Iran went so far as to bomb the Jewish Community Center of Buenos Aires.

      And that has nothing whatever to do with Israel's policies. Iran intends to use nukes against Israel. Israel has every reason to do what it can to prevent Iran from aquiring them.

    49. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by mjconllc · · Score: 1

      Please don't believe any government hype about anything to do with this. Any excuse the current (or former) government gives for putting controls on the internent is simply another method of reducing your first amendment rights. The current government has as its primarly EXPRESSED purpose to CHANGE things: one of the things it wants to change is the right of the people who can communicate to do so effectively, which means controls on the internent. They already have the right to cut down American general access to the internet, for anyone but a total nerd. Since I am not a total computer person, that means that my right to defend my ability to communicate is under threat. I use the net but I am not an expert in the means to get around governemtn edicts and methods of cutting access. Please do anything you can to put a stop to government controls on the net. It is your freedom and your communication ability that is at risk.

    50. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Actually, no... just... no. Social security and medicare and unemployment benefits and all those other social programs produce SOMETHING--they just don't produce anything you care about. The difference is profound.

      Student loans and aid produce a more educated populace, medicare produces a higher life expectancy and acts as a valuable social safety net. Social security produces a reduction in impoverished people. These are benefits that are quantifiable and whose effects on society and the economy can be quantitatively analyzed and modeled. Likewise, the goal of national highways isn't to "produce some tangible good", it's to produce an a number of benefits: increased mobility for the military, enablement of increased economic activity, etc.

      You can argue that these government functions are immoral, unconstitutional, too expensive, or better performed by other entities, but you can not simply assert that they produce no service.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    51. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      Taking money by force from those you don't like and giving it to those you do like doesn't produces government control, while it destroys the economy. I guess governnment control, like defense, is a service, come to think of it, but not in the sense of producing anything for the citizens. Social Security "produces" an impoverished people dependent on the government (as opposed to any sort of defined contributions system, which you'd do if you actually wanted people to be wealthy), which I guess is yes a sort of "production". Maybe I need to find a better word.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    52. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by lgw · · Score: 1

      Sheesh, when is /. going to join the Third Millenium and allow editing of posts! Man, what a mess.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    53. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Smiths · · Score: 1

      The Armistice Agreements in 1949 said that neither party would attack the other...Israel broke that agreement and again, invaded, bombed and killed the people of Lebanon.

      Iran has never had a war with Israel nor directly attacked Israel. You want to buy the propaganda that Iran is a direct threat to Israel...despite no proof, no historical record, be my guess.

      Israel is committing suicide right now. Even if they attack Iran and succeed militarily they will lose any legitimacy they had. The world is a changing and nothing Israel can do save for respecting international law is going to help it.

    54. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      "The Armistice Agreements in 1949 said that neither party would attack the other...Israel broke that agreement and again, invaded, bombed and killed the people of Lebanon."

      And Lebanese soldiers began sniper attacks into Israel with the ink still wet, and those have never stopped. Then tehre's that slight matter of raiding parties coming into Israel.

      "Iran has never had a war with Israel nor directly attacked Israel."

      And the Gottis never killed anyone with their own hands.

      Hezbollah is Iran's proxy. So much so that the word "Hezbollah" is what Iranian dissidents use to describe their own regime. That's war enough.

    55. Re:We should thank Israel, or whoever by plover · · Score: 1

      We also could have foreseen these vulnerabilities.

      I used to work in industrial automation - in its pre-windows era, and people did put effort into isolation, access control and validation.

      After having made the bad decision to deploy on Windows, when years of evidence that it had a horrendous lack of access control, how did Siemens just continue on? What were they thinking?

      For security reasons, many industrial control systems are deployed completely isolated from any other network. It's one of the core security best practices. With an air gap in place, the system owners probably believed that they were secure from all ordinary "Windows threats." For that reason, they probably felt they could let their guard down. Why risk putting security patches on a machine that's never actually connected to a network where it's exposed?

      This also means that updated SCADA software is never sent to these isolated control systems, because it can't be. A technician has to carry software updates physically from the development environment to the production plant, and typically does so on removable media like a USB stick.

      The thing stuxnet did was find a way to infect a machine using a bug in the Windows code that reads AUTORUNS.INF, a convenience feature for CD-ROMs that is disabled by default for USB drives. Note that the victim machine does NOT to be configured to automatically AUTORUN software from a removable drive, simply inserting it was enough to exploit the bug, installing the virus.

      What this shows is that you still need good security throughout, which needs to be done in many layers.

      --
      John
  2. Idea by Haedrian · · Score: 1, Funny

    They should run Mac software on PLCs. Macs don't get viruses!

    </satire>

    1. Re:Idea by transporter_ii · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if they were really serious about ending terror, they should nuke Redmond

      --
      Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    2. Re:Idea by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      If I said something like that, I'd get modded troll.
      (hugs his Mac G6... like a G6...)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    3. Re:Idea by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      They also make you morally superior to and smarter than anyone using a Windows machine. It's common knowledge in any coffee shop or arthouse theater.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:Idea by wmac · · Score: 1

      and your home (I hear that you have windows PCs in home).

    5. Re:Idea by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      Uh no. Apple products just make you cool and artistic.

      Its Linux which makes you smarter.

    6. Re:Idea by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      And I only eat whole foods and organically grown vegetables. Between that, my hemp clothing, and my new solar panels; I'm superior to 99.9% of the population now.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  3. The solution by Lord+Lode · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't use Windows for important industrial systems.

    1. Re:The solution by wmac · · Score: 1

      Worms can be created for any operating system including Linux etc.

    2. Re:The solution by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      More importantly, don't use control software from companies who mandate that passwords are hard-coded and cannot be changed.

      MS: "By the way, the Windows Server 2008 Domain Admin password is 12345. Be sure to write that down!"

      IT Industry: "Lolwut? GTFO."
      Nuclear Fuel Refinement Industry: "The same as my luggage! I like it!"

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:The solution by Is0m0rph · · Score: 1

      Of course but unfortunately Windows is everywhere in industrial systems. To truly be isolated they should be running dedicated HMIs connected to the PLC with no computer at all. But modern automated facilities want to be able to monitor everything from a SECS/GEM host, be able to remotely look and control HMIs, etc. I bet the companies that spent extra for Rockwell Automation PLCs over Siemens are happy with there choice now. How idiot to hard code a password like that. Not sure why we need legislation for this though.

    4. Re:The solution by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Simple answer for a not so simple problem.
      Back in the old days people used systems like the PDP-11 and VAX for things like this. Problem was they cost a lot of money and someday the are out of production.
      A good while back people started to use PCs and DOS. That was cheaper but even those are not out of prodcution. Believe it or not there are companies still making PDP-11, VAX, and even DOS/ISA bussed systems today!
      Your company may depend on using a very expensive machine that uses and ISA buss card to interface to a DOS program.
      So to solve that problem they have gone to TCP/IP and network connections. And I bet in 20 years somebody will be looking for a hub that supports 10-Base-T!
      So now we are using COTS hardware and TCP/IP or maybe ican ir even IEE-488 but with now instead of a VAX or PDP-11 we have a PC.
      Okay. so the problem is how do you get data on and off the PC. Do you use a network connection? In some places they do.
      Or do you use USB "That is how Stuxnet spread"
      Or what?
      The way this worm probably spread was by infecting connected machines in the plant and then spreading by USB drive to none connected secure machines.
      While it did use Widows exploits that doesn't mean that it couldn't have used exploits in Linux, AIX, OpenBSD, OS/X or any other OS. I do not think that any OS is exploit free.

      I can think of a few methods that I would use to make any system of this time more secure.
      1. Remove all certs from the controlling machine except for a private one. Then require all software updates be signed with that internal certificate. That would make the stolen certs useless.
      2. A USB firewall system. This would be an unconnected system that isn't running Windows or what ever OS the controller console and or connected systems are running. Say your controller console is running Linux and your connected systems are running Windows. The firewall system could run OpenVMS or OpenBSD. This firewall systems only function would copy files from one drive to the other. It only copy specific types of files. Thinks like symbolic links, soft links, and hard links would never be copied.
      3. Final firewall for the USB could be that you never put the USB drive into the system. Maybe you copy all data files and updates to the controller console via an RS-232 connection using kermit.
      That way you would be sure only the data files you want would be copied.
      Those steps would probably have stopped Stuxnet in its tracks but what about the next one?
      If you use the system I suggest I am sure that somebody smarter than I am would find a way around it.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:The solution by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      "expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer"

      I'm sure we'll be safe after they make Norton Antivirus mandatory on all machines (which is about as much as I expect from Government...)

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:The solution by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

      And how would the non-computer HMI be configured and updated when the plant needs to change the calibration on a pressure meter, or similar? Presumably by some kind of PC or engineering workstation with an "HMI Configuration" package on it? Gee, that sounds rather a lot like the kind of "PLC configuration" workstations that were the attack vector for getting into the PLCs!

      It's turtles all the way down, I'm afraid. You can't implement a programmable control system without a general-purpose, insecure, infectable PC somewhere along the line. The *degree* of insecurity and infectability is variable, but I don't think there is such a thing as a secure general purpose OS on the market today - and if there *is* such a thing, there certainly isn't any PLC or HMI configuration software written for it.

      And since the privileges needed to attack a PLC are the same user privileges needed to configure & program one, a well-implemented trojan might not even need privilege escalation on the engineer's workstation; they can do everything they need using his or her logon.

    7. Re:The solution by Simon80 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You say that as if it would be challenging to make an exception to this for these security-critical systems. It's not as if random individuals like me are successfully running something else on their home computers..

    8. Re:The solution by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      This is true. But tell me, how do you propose to get said worm onto a Linux system?

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    9. Re:The solution by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why?

      I solved this a decade ago when I was into SCADA programming Entire SCADA system is isolated NO connection to outside network, no apps other than the Control software.

      Need to have data go to the administrator for stupid reports? easy solution.

      Rs232. Rs232 TX and Gnd only hooked to the Scada system and set to output all stats in a streaming basis. Supervisors PC hooked to that RS232 to monitor all he likes. Infect his pc with nasty kil lyou all virus and it CAN NOT infect the SCADA system unless it can run a RX wire and Solder. it onto the connector.

      Rs232 at 115bps was fast enough for a water filtration plant that had only 11,000 sensors and control-points. to be real time on the supervisors monitor.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:The solution by tsj5j · · Score: 1

      That is not the solution.

      From an earlier article, Stuxnet has been analyzed to be a very specific form of attack against a very specific industrial system.
      http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/0347231/Stuxnet-Was-Designed-To-Subtly-Interfere-With-Uranium-Enrichment?from=rss
      Their modification of the frequency to such precise values show that they know exactly how the architecture works.
      This is a very targeted attack.

      As much as Windows is a piece of crap in terms of security, other operating systems have flaws too, zero-day as well.
      In fact, Windows is much more persistent about getting you to update (due to the bad rep over the years) than other operating systems like Linux.

      If someone (guessed to be state-backed) is going through so much effort to target such a specific industrial system, their intelligence should have no problem identifying the OS you use.
      From there on, it's just finding a zero-day vulnerability to exploit to release the next targeted attack.

      The real solution is better security practices.
      Industrial systems AND the systems used to program/control them should be properly isolated from the outside world.
      Developers and techs should not be able to bring their own laptops in, plug a USB in or anything of the sort. ... and more. Those are just a small subset of good security practices. A lot more can be done.

    11. Re:The solution by Is0m0rph · · Score: 1

      Very true wyvern. Even on isolated systems there's always a laptop used for configuring the PLCs, uploading code, etc (and usually Windows XP in my experience). Also the chance they would be running WinCC on a non-Siemens PLC isn't that likely. Every PLC maker has their own SCADA software.

    12. Re:The solution by kenj0418 · · Score: 1

      The solution: Don't use Windows.

      FTFY

    13. Re:The solution by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      How do you update the software on the Control Console. Not the reporting console but the acutal control console?
      What about transferring data like software updates for the PLCs?
      The Stuxnet worm infected USB drives.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    14. Re:The solution by Zerth · · Score: 1

      Flipping switches on the front panel, byte by byte.

    15. Re:The solution by jnpcl · · Score: 1

      Easy, just convince them to use Damn Vulnerable Linux!

    16. Re:The solution by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      This is dumb advice. Not running windows may protect you from your typical "try to infect as many computers as possible" worm. This was a targeted attack. In any targeted attack they will use a vulnerability that exists in the operating system that runs the machine.

      Here's a bit of a trivia question: how often do control machines go down for a reboot to install patches?

      If you guessed anything other than a) when the plant goes down, b) when the computer crashes and it's convenient to apply the updates, or c) during a long drawn out carefully planned cycle that doesn't at all make sure the system is any more than 6 months up to date, then you would be wrong. Any Linux, BSD, or Solaris system attached to a PLC is likely to be so full of holes on account of out of date software that the suggestion to not use windows is quite pointless.

      Two of the computers at our plant on the emergency shutdown system run Windows NT 4.0. Does that make me unsafe? What about the fact that only 2 people have access to it, and the computer has no USB ports or network connection?

      Don't use windows, or just airgap, are the suggestions of the uninformed and definitely not security experts.

    17. Re:The solution by dave420 · · Score: 1

      A suitable method of I/O? Of which there are plenty?

  4. Cut the hardlines by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's no reason why these machines should be connected to the internet. Maybe some of the top-level communication computers to coordinate between plants, but certainly not the local-area computers/machines.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually Stuxnet does not require the machines to be connected to the Internet. In infests the machines used by the designers of these systems, and piggy backs on update PLDs (programmable logic devices) for the production machinery. It does not even rely on the PLD programming machines being connected, as it infests the PLD design files. It infests the PLD design engineers workstations when someone plugs an infected laptop into the private network that all the design computers are on.

    2. Re:Cut the hardlines by ichard · · Score: 1

      They don't need to be connected to the Internet to get infected -- they just need to be connected to something, with a link to something else, that happens to share a wireless network with another computer, that once had a laptop connected to it with a crossover cable, that sometime in the past had an infected memory stick plugged in.

      Protecting humans from pathogens involves strict biosecurity, and computers are no different. Isolated means *isolated*. Maybe they should use token-ring for the secure network to make sure nothing else can connect :-)

      --
      i hate computers
    3. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 1

      Burning a CDROM on one and using it on another is enough. Its almost as is nobody remembers floppy discs with file and bootsector viruses. With Stuxnet because it can infect the design files, moving the PLD designs from one computer to another by _any_ means (USB key / SDCARD / DVD etc...) will spread the infection.

    4. Re:Cut the hardlines by Inda · · Score: 1

      Not strictly true.

      I'm sat here at head office, and I can measure 30,000 sensors on over a dozen power stations. There is a link over the internet.

      At the power stations, I can walk into the control room with anything I choose. Getting onto the power station site would be more difficult.

      But you are right, the control room is not connected to the internet.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    5. Re:Cut the hardlines by T_Tauri · · Score: 1

      Without a connection to the internet it would be harder to get software updates & virus protection updates. Do you think it would be more secure running WinXP SP1 and no internet connection? Fine until someone brings a memory stick or CD with a new set of settings for the centrifuge...

    6. Re:Cut the hardlines by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Oh so it's just like when Windows XP(?) shipped with a virus on-board. That should make it easier to control, simply by virus protecting the Engineers desktops.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 2, Informative

      I said stuxnet does not _need_ the PLC (PLD) containing machines to be connected. In reality they may be connected, but disconnecting them will not stop Stuxnet infecting them as it gets in when the PLC programming is updated.

      http://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/enterprise/media/security_response/whitepapers/w32_stuxnet_dossier.pdf

      For reference a "Field PG" is a machine used to program the PLCs not the actual target of the infection.

      Quote:
      "Once Stuxnet had infected a computer within the organization it began to spread in search of Field PGs, which are typical Windows computers but used to program PLCs. Since most of these computers are non-networked, Stuxnet would first try to spread to other computers on the LAN through a zero-day vulnerability, a two year old vulnerability, infecting Step 7 projects, and through removable drives. Propagation through a LAN likely served as the first step and propagation through removable drives as a means to cover the last and final hop to a Field PG that is never connected to an untrusted network."

    8. Re:Cut the hardlines by master0ne · · Score: 1

      The problem was not that the targeted machines were connected to the internet, they wern't. If you have RTFA's the targeted machines were supposed to be infected by USB sticks transfered between infected machines and the mission critical systems. Thats why the Stuxnet worm did its best to hide very discreetly on a USB stick, so that it could be transfered from internet connected systems to the mission critical systems without being noticed. Hell, you probably could have picked up on this if you had even RTF summeries from all the posted articles on the Stuxnet worm.

      --
      Noone writes jokes in base 13!
    9. Re:Cut the hardlines by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      How do you scan the proprietary upgrade boards used within the control machines themselves? 'Cause that's the method of infection; Infect the engineer's network, get written onto the upgrade software supplied by the engineer, get installed by an engineer.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    10. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 1

      Virus detectors only detect known viruses... Even with virus protection, you are vulnerable to unknown viruses.

      To make this even more thought provoking, what if the virus detector is infected. What if the 'C' compiler is infected, such that all programs it generated automatically are infected, and cannot detect the infection. If the infection is not spotted soon enough, all virus detection products compiled with the compiler will be infected. What if this has already happened?

    11. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 1

      I just realised the reply I replied to was replying to a hidden comment, and not my previous reply, so I replied in error, my apologies.

    12. Re:Cut the hardlines by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

      Yeah, AV on the laptops does help - but as usual, only against known threats. When a nation state decides to gin up some custom sabotage-ware to take out your specific factory, you can count on it bypassing any and all AV until its dirty work is done.

      I think it's difficult to ever be truly secure against an attack with this level of dedication. Stuxnet targeted air-gapped facilities, and appears to have succeeded in its primary mission. If anything, the failure of Stuxnet was that it spread *too much*. It's unlikely that industrial control/telemetry guys would have been able to diagnose what was actually going wrong with the centrifuges (or whatever) given how stealthy Stuxnet is. If it stayed within the target system, to which access is presumably very restricted, the "many eyes make all rootkits shallow" principle suggests that it could perhaps have stayed undetected much longer.

      Stuxnet used multiple zero-day flaws to attack the Windows SCADA / PLC configuration boxes, and attacked the PLCs from there. Use of (hypothetical) Linux software for the SCADA / PLC configuration packages just means that the nation state actors would have had to find/purchase some zero day Linux flaws, rather than Windows ones. I find it hard to believe that there aren't any zero-days in Linux that would permit a similar attack vector, especially considering that the initial attack is code being run by an authenticated, logged-in user rather than a remote exploit.

      AutoPlay is a disaster on Windows though. I don't why MS hasn't abandoned it completely; the benefits are just not worth the downsides.

    13. Re:Cut the hardlines by keean · · Score: 1

      I agree about the difficulty of being truly secure against dedicated attackers. I think the idea that security is "done" and you are "secure" is part of the problem. I think its more like how hard do you want to make it. The more time and effort you spend on security, the greater the cost to the would-be attacker. But given enough time and money _any_ security system is vulnerable. In a way it comes down to risk management. How much is the cost of a compromise, and then how probable is it to happen.

    14. Re:Cut the hardlines by Zangief · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but stuxnet was designed to spread even without the internet.

    15. Re:Cut the hardlines by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Rabbit holes aside... There used to be a very good end-user tool called Thunderbyte AV that leveraged not just the--basically worthless against first strike attack--signatures method but also used heuristics to detect unknown malicious software. Unfortunately I think this method has largely gone by the wayside for the sake of ignorant users and supporting business models.

      Now, this technique only exists in enterprise class protection hardware/software used by big business. It unfortunately isn't being used by the not so IT savvy industrial sector nor end-user and is one of the primary reasons we continue to read new anecdotes and reports on our soft industrial underbelly.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  5. Funny how the answer is always more government by fotbr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you really want the idiots in D.C. telling you how your computer must work? Ask anyone doing IT related stuff under the DoD -- their own security policies cause more outages and problems than anything else. Those policies are from people who supposedly know what's what. Now put clueless politicians in charge.

    You DON'T want this, no matter how much you like government control of your lives.

    1. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by ewieling · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do not mind the government telling industry that they must secure their systems. Who else is going to do that? Customers?

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    2. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Paranoia and its associated billions and billions spent because of it is how the US will be weakened.

      It's been said that one of the (many) reasons the Soviet Union collapsed was because of the spending on military hardware to keep up with the US - their economy just couldn't support it.

      The US has no real reason, at least at this time, to spend billions and billions of hardware BUT security is another matter.

      We're so paranoid, that we're searching each other to make sure that our neighbors aren't a threat - "They could be!" is the cry from the peanut gallery and politically connected businessmen who want to bleed the American taxpayer to line their own pockets.

      Now we have this virus that will attack our NUCLEAR installations. GASP! It's NUCLEAR!!! Everybody panic. We need to do something!!!

      Along will come politicians and businessman with a solution. Hundreds of billions of dollars will be spent on "protecting" us from this "threat".

      Another threat will come. And another. And another. And hundreds of billions of dollars will be spent on each.

      In the meantime, the Fed is "Quantitatively Easing" (*snicker*) our currency. We're running huge deficits.

      We're considered to be Imperialistic by most of the World - OK, all of the World except for ourselves. And one of the best ways to take out a superior force is to have them take themselves out.

      To quote from "Blade Runner" - "We are stupid."

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    3. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When the last time the government solved the problem that it told you it was trying to solve?

    4. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by gsgriffin · · Score: 1

      That's exactly right. People can all yell and complain about the litigious society we live in, but it is the fact that people can and will sue companies that scares the pants off them and keeps them working toward safer and better. I was involved in a biotech company in the development of a new manufacturing plant over 5 years ago. Their control computers (which I installed) were completely isolated from the rest of the company. No cables coming into the control server room from the rest of the company. They are not only scared of customers but also the FDA. Same with any company. They all want to stay in business. They simply need to know of where problems can come from, and they will make changes to cover their butts.

      --
      jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
    5. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I am two minds about this: one, it's definitely time for someone to put down standards. But two, the government has consistently failed to get its own shit in order, which can only be attributed to crappy bureaucracy.

      It's pretty much all of a piece, I suppose.

      A simple fix would be to pass a law that lets people sue companies more easily for problems related to their crappy computer infrastructure...Let the market take care of the rest.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Calsar · · Score: 1

      NIST puts out some good standards. The problem is that they don't follow their own standards. There is a disconnect between the security researchers and the IT staff. Despite this, it still has better handle on technology than any other govenment agency I've worked at.

    7. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Except that the government won't settle for telling industry that they must secure their systems. Government will tell industry how to secure their systems and if industry follows government standards they will be protected from lawsuits...even if everyone knows that meeting government standards will do nothing to actually secure industry's systems.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      It's been said that one of the (many) reasons the Soviet Union collapsed was because of the spending on military hardware to keep up with the US - their economy just couldn't support it.

      And it is pure bullshit because Soviet Union did not have companies. Government would not be able to "spend" anything even if it wanted to because it owned all industry, and would end up paying itself. It also had no unemployment and very little income disparity, so everyone who could be paid a salary, already was paid that, regardless of where he worked.

      "Collapse" of economy only started after politicians convinced each other to bring USSR/Russia equivalent of Libertarians into power.

      As usual, Americans project their own economic system's deficiencies onto their "enemies".

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    9. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      The thing that enrages me is that each branch is allowed to implement their own security standards, and then allowed to choose their own contractors, etc, etc, etc.

      I hate the whole "run the government like a business" mentality, but in this sense, that's absolutely what should happen. No corporation would let it's business units all set their own standards, buy non-standard equipment, etc, etc. They also need to bring everything in-house.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    10. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by fotbr · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that bureaucracy never makes things better, and adding politics to the mix makes it even worse.

    11. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      I can certainly understand the "two minds" position. I'm in a likewise position. I'm not certain what would be the best solution but history does seem to make it clear that nothing will get done unless someone or something puts a fire under industry's a**. There needs to be a business case for them to do it. Unfortunately market pressure is unlikely to exist unless there's an actual incident and a very high chance it will happen to others on a regular basis. This is obviously something best avoided. So we're left with coming up with preemptive strategies. I am unfamiliar with any other reliably effective means of providing a business case for doing something than to prevent them from having a business in the first place absent from compliance to a certain measure.

      We know that government legislators have a tradition of poorly prescribing technological specifications. However, we also know that the NSA has a rather strong skill in the area of security. Perhaps we can find a means of leveraging our tax payer investment in the NSA to produce a solution. An unfortunate challenge to providing a solution however, will be the lack of authority at the federal level for any business not subject to the Commerce Clause. This encompasses a rather large segment of which includes critical infrastructure such as power, water, etc.. Most states, and some in particular are a rather bit difficult to get to voluntarily comply with anything the federal government requests.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    12. Re:Funny how the answer is always more government by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Three words: Clean Air Act.

      Furthermore, last I checked, rivers haven't caught fire in recent years, something for which you can thank government regulation.

      Not that I expect you to understand this... your anti-government blinders have lead you to an erroneously black-and-white view of the role of government in society, and alas, that's unlikely to change simply because you're presented with evidence contrary to your beliefs. As recent studies have shown, evidence will likely just reinforce your already incorrect beliefs.

  6. Legislation? by TD-Linux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would think that the risk of prolonged downtime in a factory that plows through millions of dollars a day would be enough of an incentive for any manager to tighten their security.

    1. Re:Legislation? by Ryanrule · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But you see, that is the fault of some IT guy they can just fire. But a VP would have to submit outrageous expenses for such security, and that would hurt his bonus.

    2. Re:Legislation? by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it isn't. Humans in general and managers in particular are famously bad at correctly estimating the factors of low-probability/high-impact risks. Not always in the same direction - we vastly overestimate the risk of some stuff, and vastly underestimate others. But we're almost always off, and by several orders of magnitude.

      And don't forget the human factor - the risk for the manager is not millions of dollars of company assets, that is an abstract figure at best. The risk to him is the loss of his job, which is lower in both value and likelihood than the event itself. However, spending money on security is a 100% loss of profit which will impact the bottom line, profit, quarterly report, etc. with a very high probability of negative impact on his bonus or raise.

      Unfortunately, almost everything you learn about management or governance acts as if "the company" would make decisions, and not humans. And ignores that humans have a more personal context that also influences their decisions, and routinely overrides even those cases where the optimal decision can be clearly demonstrated.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    3. Re:Legislation? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      As long as it doesn't break, then they're not going to sink a lot of money into security and contingency. Hard for management to justify a big expenditure without any obvious problem.

      When it does break, then you'll see some meaningful change.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:Legislation? by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      The risk to him is the loss of his job, which is lower in both value and likelihood than the event itself. However, spending money on security is a 100% loss of profit which will impact the bottom line, profit, quarterly report, etc. with a very high probability of negative impact on his bonus or raise.

      This is in fact the exact same behaviour pattern that was behind the recent financial meltdown.

      People got bonuses for knowingly doing something for short-term profit which many of them knew lead to long-term disaster, then they got their bonuses on those short term "successes" and, at worst, lost their jobs after some years of making oversized bonuses.

      The giving of rewards based on short-term gains and an unbalanced Reward-Punishment ratio are the essential problems with Managemement practices nowadays in publicly traded companies and that does not seem to be changing in any way, recession or not.

  7. Do i get this right? by durrr · · Score: 1

    So first the goverment makes the most malicious worm possible to do their bidding in wiping out the enemy, and then the goverment figure they can use this worm as an argument for imposing more restrictions and expanding their power.

    Next up: the police starts killing people so they can use the higher homicide rates to motivate expansion.

    1. Re:Do i get this right? by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      My though exactly. Kill two birds with one stone.
      But at least the government is becoming more efficient.

    2. Re:Do i get this right? by digitaldc · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the ultimate cyber conspiracy.

      --
      He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    3. Re:Do i get this right? by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      I find the US government to be a bit weird.

      It tries to impose regulations in places where they probably shouldn't, and leave it as a free-for-all on places where it should.

      And before someone mentions "Socialism", you should probably google what that word means.

    4. Re:Do i get this right? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      You mean the only way the government can get it right, is when they intend to fuck things up?

    5. Re:Do i get this right? by Dunega · · Score: 1

      No, they fuck that up too.

  8. A Ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "The growing danger, said lawmakers, makes it imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer."

    The mystery of the who and the why of stuxnet is now over.

    1. Re:A Ha by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 1

      ...imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer.

      From the same legislative body that brought you a series of tubes not serviced by dump trucks.

      Be afraid. Be very afraid. 10 to 1 they bring in experts from Microsoft to help craft the legislation...

      --
      I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
    2. Re:A Ha by Andrewkov · · Score: 1

      Ok, but just don't touch my junk.

  9. Stupidity is the problem, training the solution. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As sophisticated as Stuxnet is, it still relies on people doing Very Stupid Things. The solution isn't government intervention to control how everyone designs their networks (They'd be perpetually ten years behind current technology anyway), but to just weather the current panic, learn from it, and remember CHANGE THE DEFAULT PASSWORDS and USE A FIREWALL! The only reason this has been such a problem is that industrial control networks are designed by people with insufficient training in IT security, so often even the most common-sense measures are neglected.

  10. This isn't a 'vulnerability' by Thomas+Charron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't exaggerate the issue. The exploitation of PLC's by Stuxnet is akin to a device on your car vehicles CAN bus issueing commands across the network. Does your cars radio require authentication? Newp. How about your speedometer? Newp.

        What StuxNet *does* emphasize is why it's a very, VERY dumb idea to have a network with PLCs connected to an external network of any kind.

        "OMFG, I can't believe my cancer test came up negative because some hax0r compromised it. What kind of suck software was RUNNING on that device?"

        OOOOOOoorrrrrrr..

        "OMFG, you idiots, WTF would you connect a device which is going to tell me if I'm *DYING* to the MTF internet?!?!"

    --
    -- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
    1. Re:This isn't a 'vulnerability' by dbIII · · Score: 1

      We all know this, but the stupidity arises from having an interface that requires change to be done by connecting via something that has previously been connected to the outside world. An isolated network isn't isolated anymore once somebody connects their malware ridden laptop to it.

    2. Re:This isn't a 'vulnerability' by wiredog · · Score: 1

      The PLC's weren't connected to a network. They were connected to a controlling PC. Sure, the connections are a network, but it's a closed one, and one you have to have.

    3. Re:This isn't a 'vulnerability' by Thomas+Charron · · Score: 1

      *sigh* Siemans PCL's are network connected.

      Reading.. It's whats for dinner.

      --
      -- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
  11. Blowback by srussia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ain't it a biatch.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  12. Stuxnet is only a threat to Seimens by kurt555gs · · Score: 1

    There are lots of choices. Just avoid using Seimens controllers. Problem solved!

    --
    * Carthago Delenda Est *
  13. Even liberals agree, this is dumb. by RingDev · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A fair number of people have labeled me a socialist, and even I can see that this is nothing more than a blatent attempt at a power grab by the federal government, and profiteering by Symantec.

    Dean Turner, director of the Global Intelligence Network at Symantec Corp., told the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee that the "real-world implications of Stuxnet are beyond any threat we have seen in the past."

    So we're having people who stand to gain more power over their country men making a decision about taking that power, receiving testimony about the threat from the company that stands to profit the most by their decision to take the power. Yeah, that's not a recipe for a horrendous outcome.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  14. Missing in the summary by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    "Think of the children!"

  15. lol the irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its probably American dollars that paid for stuxnet in the first place (by way of "Aid" to certain countries)

    just deserts come to mind

    1. Re:lol the irony by treeves · · Score: 1

      Well, Israel is in the Middle East but it's not ALL desert. It is right on the Mediterranean.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  16. Nuclear Plant Security by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

    Obviously, this virus showed that nuclear security is much harder problem then anyone realised before. Nuclear plants are using on unsecure closed-source programs. It is unlikely that anyone competent reviewd sources of these programs. It should be remebered that all arguments on how "new reactors" are now safe, as opose to Chernobil, are invalid, all of a sudden and there is little Nuclear Lobby can do in short term to restore safety argument.

    --
    839*929
    1. Re:Nuclear Plant Security by khallow · · Score: 1

      It should be remebered that all arguments on how "new reactors" are now safe, as opose to Chernobil, are invalid, all of a sudden and there is little Nuclear Lobby can do in short term to restore safety argument.

      And why are those arguments invalid? Keep in mind that some reactor designs, such as pebble bed, are sufficiently safe no matter what the computer systems are doing.

    2. Re:Nuclear Plant Security by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      Well, if there is mechanical "switch" independant of what any microcontroller says (like: mechanical switch connected to microcontroller in cars. You can "push breaks" in SW, albait it is mechanical part), then I am accepting your argument. For this however, design of nuclear power plants should be open for review.

      --
      839*929
    3. Re:Nuclear Plant Security by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Well, if there is mechanical "switch" independant of what any microcontroller says (like: mechanical switch connected to microcontroller in cars. You can "push breaks" in SW, albait it is mechanical part), then I am accepting your argument.

      Besides this there are reactor designs that are prevented from exploding or melting down by the laws of physics, regardless of any control system tries to do be it a mechanical switch or a microcontroller.

  17. Hahaha by KingFrog · · Score: 1

    Yes, because my Congressman is without a doubt the best qualified to draft intelligent, thoughtful cyber-laws to deal with cyber-threats! :) I now await his first press conference talking about his "Superior Cyber Technology"...

  18. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by moeluv · · Score: 1

    and if macOS were ever to become popular enough that malware writers decide to target it? Just because something is too obscure to be targeted does not mean it's totally secure. The virus was written for windows because that's what the system runs. If it ran Linux it would have been a Linux virus.

  19. Re:industrial control systems? by should_be_linear · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And what if I pay some random employee of nuclear plant $1 million to run .exe from USB key? Then I possibly can create another Chernobyl. In case of Nuclear plants only solution is to stay with pure electrical control systems and not moving it towards electronical programmable (computer) control systems. If there is no SW, there is no possibility of infection.

    --
    839*929
  20. Re:industrial control systems? by mcvos · · Score: 1

    Yeah, but then how would they check facebook?

  21. The Interent is not the only WAN by blind+biker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously, who TF came to the idea that all WANs are to be extinguished and only the Internet can be used for site-to-site networks? Maybe I'm showing my age, but I don't care: when I was working in IT (before returning to academia), private WANs were the norm, and nobody even dreamt of connecting any part of a company network, no matter how unimportant, to the Internet. Somehow, common sense wasn't snuffed entirely. Oh, and we did have e-mail, shockingly enough, which was nicely routed to the Interent (if the e-mail address was an Internet e-mail address).

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:The Interent is not the only WAN by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

      What makes you (and half of Slashdot) think that Stuxnet was designed to primarily attack systems that are connected to the Internet?

      It's not. It's designed to use multiple propagation strategies to get over air-gaps, helpfully transported by people who need to use both a) internet connected resources and b) private network resources. Once it's over the air-gap, it then spreads just fine within the private internal network. But it *does not* require sensitive assets to be on the public internet to be a genuine threat.

    2. Re:The Interent is not the only WAN by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Seriously, who TF came to the idea that all WANs are to be extinguished and only the Internet can be used for site-to-site networks?

      Private links still exist. I manage several. However, you're an idiot if you think that somehow a leased line is magically more secure than two sites that use an IPSec VPN over the internet. Both are IP networks with an that might or might not have internet access.

      Once you have an IP network, all it takes is a single infected executable, or laptop, to get onto your private network and infect all others. Security requires extensive network access controls, not just barracading the front door. Stuxnet is a prime example, as it doesn't require internet access to spread, but will then use whatever network access it gets on the infected machines...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  22. Didn't our government launch that virus? by HangingChad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So the US government launches a cyber attack aimed at Iran's nuclear production and now the government wants to protect us from cyberthreats?

    Where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah! We woulds hate to see bad tings happen to yas.

    Besides taking naked pictures of you at the airport, now the government will be infiltrating your office network to protect you. Boy, I feel so much safer now.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Didn't our government launch that virus? by MCHammer · · Score: 1

      You are dead right on this. I've seen this a million times before. This is companies lobbying congress with fear, uncertainty, and doubt to force controls on the internet. This is nothing but a scare tactic. Companies and government would like nothing more than to take over the chaotic internet so that they can better monetize it and prevent competition from small players... not to mention eliminating anonymity.

    2. Re:Didn't our government launch that virus? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Didn't our government launch that virus?

      Maybe. Maybe not. No one actually knows.

      But one thing I do know: Basing an entire post on an erroneous premise wastes everyone's time, including your own.

  23. Windwos Now Biggest Threat To Industry by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

    There, corrected for you.

    And before you Microsoft Astroturfers obey your master and mod me into oblivion, thats how it is. Windows is the attack vector used when gaining access to the various SCADA systems its after. Even with a Secure SCADA system, as long as its managed on a Windows computer its vulnerable to attacks. Take Windows out of the picture and the threat lowers significantly.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  24. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    The virus was written for windows because that's what the system runs. If it ran Linux it would have been a Linux virus.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, much of the most important Internet infrastructure runs on Linux and yet it seems remarkably lacking in virus infections.

  25. 2000 virus by tunetalkhwan · · Score: 1

    http://hotinfo10.wordpress.com/ Wow, didnt know that such a treat exist. Well, during the Millenium there was a news regarding a virus that posed great threat to the US government.. hopefully the world can pull through this time like we did in 2000

  26. Stop using Windows98 by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    Stop running your robots with a computer running windows 98 (or winxp that auto-logs-in to admin on bootup). Stop putting those same computers on the Internet because Jim the Operator needed to read his email. Buy a dedicated computer for that, and remove/disable the NIC on the controller computer.

  27. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by Spad · · Score: 1
  28. Government can make us safe... by AbrasiveCat · · Score: 1

    Well if governments can pass legislation to make us safe, then unless it violates some other law (constitution) they should do it. And while they are at it pass a law to make cars all safe, the air safe, children safe, and all the other stuff safe. I don't think it is so easy and business has an obligation to protect themselves. When you take a research network and later try to legislate rules into to it you are missing the boat. (I am getting tired of "someone" saying congress can fix "it" with a law, take some responsibility. Even if you are BP, a power company, a consumer, a person driving a car, a parent, an airline passenger, a record company, etc.) Sigh

  29. Is this a script? by gambit3 · · Score: 1

    Why does it always follow the outline:

    [INSERT REAL OR IMAGINED DANGER HERE], so the only solution is for [INSERT GOV'T BRANCH HERE] to [INSERT DESIRED ACTION HERE].

    "The growing danger, said lawmakers, makes it imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer."

  30. GOOD! by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    This is a wake-up call. It is one that has been missing for a long time. Thankfully, it is not damaging to ANYTHING. The ONLY downfall is that if you are running the German designed centrifuges, then it will only mix Uranium with a tolerance that is acceptable for Nuke Plants. Basically, it does not have high enough tolerance for bombs. The problem for Iran is that they obviously have ZERO intentions of doing this work for nuke plants like they claim. It is all for bombs.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  31. Good thing the cylons aren't attacking. by gblackwo · · Score: 1

    The only reason we survived the cylons was by not having our computers networked for "increased efficiency". We are doomed.

  32. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    I wish that I had not replied on this article. I would have modded you down. Obviously you are neither a cracker, a virus writer, or logical.

    Ppl target Windows not do to number of systems, but number of openings. If a system had 99% penetration of desktop markets, but had ZERO opening, or even limited openings, then the crackers/virus writers/etc would then target the 1%. Why? BECAUSE IT IS EFFECTIVE.

    Hell, just look at 7-11 vs. banks. Once upon a time, banks were the favorite targets. Then along came 7-11. Much smaller amounts, but banks had acquired security, while 7-11 had none. When 7-11 moved to having decent security, then robbers went back to mostly banks. There are more banks robbed from in Colorado than 7-11s. WHy? Because 7-11 has effective security.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  33. Proof of Concept? by rakuen · · Score: 1

    If foo works on one system, and foo is adaptable, then foo + bar might work on another system.

    We can make jokes about the Windows OS and giving vital machines an active presence on the Internet all day long (and it seems we have), but that would be missing the point. What we have here is a virus which has been proven to work, and which like many viruses, can be altered to infect other systems. People who say these organizations should run OSX or Linux, who's to say this virus can't be recoded to work on those systems (yes, I realize time required). People who say steer clear of the Internet, direct contact is always a potential vector for infection.

    At the risk of having to put on my tin foil hat, I'd say the whole Iran infection is a proof of concept. The virus works, and it's possible to get into proper positioning to release it. All this talk about government regulation isn't going to change that fact either, if anything, the bureaucracy might cripple response times. It falls on security professionals to figure out how to head this virus off. Identify it, reverse engineer it, kill it, and figure out a way to detect new variations before they can cause too much damage. But if all of us are too busy shooting for +5 Funny/Insightful by bashing Microsoft, well, we're certainly not getting anything done, are we?

  34. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by gsgriffin · · Score: 1

    You've obviously never owned a Linux server on the web. Gosh!! Updates came nearly weekly (and had to be manually installed) and even then my box was completely cracked and used to try to break into Stanford U graphics department one weekend. Ran up an $800 bill for me. Thanks Linux.

    While your statement about Linux being used on much of the web is correct, try working for a shared hosting company that has thousands of Linux boxes on them, and they will tell you it is a 24x7 job trying to keep them patched and clean and updated. Nothing out there is plug-n-play-n-forget.

    --
    jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
  35. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by moeluv · · Score: 1

    and in other news this virus had an industrial target. It wasn't simply looking to disrupt internet traffic. Once a malware writer decides they want to disrupt internet traffic in general I'm sure we'll see things written to affect those linux machines. Don't get me wrong i prefer linux and run it at home but blaming the target doesn't solve the problem. If you are putting forth the idea that no viruses/malware/exploits exist for linux then you sir are either woefully unaware or a complete idiot.

  36. Government controls??? by ZenDragon · · Score: 1

    "The growing danger, said lawmakers, makes it imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer."

    Uh NO... it makes it imperative that security folks get better training! Why does this government think they can fix everything by expanding government controls???

    1. Re:Government controls??? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Government doesn't think it can fix anything by expanding government controls, it just thinks it can get people to accept government controls if it claims they are going to fix problems.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Government controls??? by Israfels · · Score: 1

      Exactly, how does more government controls of all industrial companies' software make for a more secure application? If anything, they'll want their own special back-door access which will itself be a security risk.

  37. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

    So what's your solution to salespeople who have to use Windows and need the ability to install printers on the road? You can't do that in Windows without admin rights.

    Or what about the people who rely on UPS software? Also requires admin rights.

    But I'm sure you have it all down pat, in your little limited environment, and none of the Windows viruses / worms affect your company at all. Right. Because it's gotten to the point that a simple Google search can get you infected if you run IE -- even IE 8 and 9. Or maybe your company doesn't use any of the other Microsoft products (SharePoint for one) which require IE?

    The point is the other OS's -- Linux, UNIX, OSX -- all ship with more security and fewer holes. When's the last time you saw someone infected with a virus / worm on Linux? On UNIX? On OSX? Think hard. Now when was the last time that happened for Windows users?

    You realize Patch Tuesday is there for a reason, right? And that the Windows anti-malware and antivirus industries make a ton of money, selling products people need to keep their machines working until the next threat comes out and the arms race begins again.

    Defective by design -- that's Windows. Doesn't require an idiot to launch a trojan to get infected. Just connect it to a network or the Internet and let the fun begin.

  38. Re:industrial control systems? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the love of god! You cannot create another Chernobyl, it had ZERO core containment. US reactors have 12 feet thick concrete surrounding the core! It *may* melt down, but then it's entombed in tons of concrete, so there isn't much to worry about! Equating a meltdown to Chernobyl is naive.

    As an AC this post will never see the light of day, but I really wish people would stop being so afraid of nuclear power, it's really our only hope to get off fossil fuels any time soon.

  39. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    Popularity is one reason MS is targeted, but the way Windows is designed is the primary factor in its proliferation of malware.

    An example: making a program executable by changing the extension, and then hiding that extension by default. That JPG file can be an executable in Windows, but not in Mac or Linux.

    Another example: software repositories. It's as easy to install a Linux program from a repository as it is to install a Windows program in Windows, but probably too hard for Joe Sixpack to install a program not in the repository. In windows, clicking any install file and answering all the questions with "yes" installs a program.

    They are getting better about it, but they're nowhere near the security of Mac or Linux.

  40. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

    No. Stuxnet targeted Windows because the _specific plant that Stuxnet was designed to sabotage_ used Siemens WinCC, which is a Windows-only application.

    If Stuxnet was a piece of general purpose malware written for economic or general purpose espionage reasons (like the Russian Business Network's systems or Ghostnet) then your argument would make sense. In the case of Stuxnet, which is one of the most specialized pieces of malware ever made, it targets *whatever platforms are necessary* to get at the 33+ Variable Speed Drives that it was specifically designed to sabotage. If that plant used a Linux-based control system, then Stuxnet would have been a Linux + PLC rootkit instead of a Windows + PLC rootkit.

  41. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    and in other news this virus had an industrial target. It wasn't simply looking to disrupt internet traffic. Once a malware writer decides they want to disrupt internet traffic in general I'm sure we'll see things written to affect those linux machines.

    You're right: owning a DNS server, or amazon.com, or google would be of no value whatsoever to a bad guy. That's obviously why they haven't hacked those servers, not because they're vastly more secure than Windows.

    This whole 'no OS is any more secure than any other' nonsense is one of the reasons why we see these kind of problems.

  42. Air Gap by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

    Anyone involved in industrial control systems - especially nuclear fuel refinement, for Bob's sake - needs to look up "air gap" in a dictionary. It's not a guarantee of security, but it's a start.

  43. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by moeluv · · Score: 1

    No I'm not a cracker virus writer I am logical though. There are TONS of exploits for Linux jackass. They do exist and you not wanting ot admit it doesn't make it go away. Read gsgriffins response it sounds like he has some experience working with linux. Talking about theft banks are still a favorite of thieves and far more is still stolen from banks than from 7-11's. You're analogy still works a little though. The low end thugs with no talent( script kiddie sfo rour purposes ) hit 7-11's, crooks with more finesse (actual crackers) steal much larger amounts by defrauding banks. Both get robbed so obviously even with security there is risk. jackass.

  44. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by moeluv · · Score: 1

    All of those things have been hacked before.... so your point being.

  45. undoing mis-moderation by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Get the dropdown right on the first try. No submit button for you!

    AJAX isn't necessarily a bad thing, but incompetent web developers replacing good interfaces with bad ones, sure is.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  46. Learn A Little About Stuxnet Before Commenting by Fantom42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Many of the comments here seem to be unaware of what Stuxnet actually is or how it works. Symantec has a great whitepaper on it that is updated as they learn more. 50 pages of technical detail. Of course you can read the executive summary and at least avoid making the kinds of uniformed comments I'm seeing here.

    http://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/enterprise/media/security_response/whitepapers/w32_stuxnet_dossier.pdf

    Just a Few:

    1. "People are so stupid to connect their industrial control system to the internet!"

    Stuxnet does not require internet access. It delivers its payload in various ways, and in particular, if an infected USB stick is inserted into a susceptible machine, it will find a machine on that network with the Siemens PLC development environment and infect it in such a way to insert hidden malicious code into the PLC.

    2. "Just don't run Windows"

    There is some validity to this idea. But the payload was not delievered to a Windows machine, just via one. How many embedded controller development environments require a Windows machine? Try coding a Xilinx FPGA without a Windows box, or just about anything out there without one.

    3. "We could have seen this coming"

    Most people did see this coming. But they didn't think it was actually plausible to defend against. The Stuxnet worm required a huge amount of resources and detailed knowledge to pull off. Everything from the payload to the infection method. Someone really thought this through. It is a proof of concept of what people generally believed to be only possible in theory.

    The fact that government is getting involved here is a bit worrisome. I hope they at least pay attention to the existing specifications already out there to help mitigate some of these threats. NIST 800-82 is a decent read that is free (final public draft) and there are other pay ones out there as well.

    The reason why I am kindof annoyed about people's ignorance about Stuxnet is because the biggest lesson learned from it is largely being ignored. 1. That "air gap" protection you think you have is not as good as you think it is. 2. The "insider threat" is worth thinking about, even if you trust your insiders. They may not know they are a threat.

  47. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

    and if macOS were ever to become popular enough that malware writers decide to target it? Just because something is too obscure to be targeted does not mean it's totally secure. The virus was written for windows because that's what the system runs. If it ran Linux it would have been a Linux virus.

    If OS X ever became popular enough that it had 40% of the market not only would it be much more resistant to malware than Windows is now, Windows would adapt and become much more resistant to malware. Here's the thing that people don't seem to get. Windows isn't built on an inherently insecure foundation that can never be fixed. It's not insecure because it is built by Microsoft. It's insecure because it has monopoly influence on the market so competitive forces that would normally drive real, functional security improvements, are just not there.

    Now I'm not saying all OS's would be immune to malware if Windows was not a monopoly. What I'm saying is that they'd adapt to be resistant enough to satisfy the needs of their main customer base and some OS's would target the secure workstation segment. The weakness of Windows is that investing in security doesn't make Microsoft more money than dumping half that money into marketing about security or security theater features.

    You want to know the most effective way I can think of to improve computer security, break Microsoft up into at least two companies BOTH with full rights to the windows code, forbid them from any nonpublic communication or collusion. Let Microsoft A and Microsoft B bid against one another for contracts and we'll see just how fast they can make real security improvements at lower costs in order to win that contract.

  48. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by moeluv · · Score: 1

    Interesting idea.

  49. Re:industrial control systems? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Nothing happens..

    Why? because competent system designer and installer would have disabled USB storage capabilities.
    How about a CD, sure, got the key to open the rackmount computer door? No... sowwy...

    It's easy to fix that issue.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  50. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by WindBourne · · Score: 1
    Actually, I was responding to the fool parent to me. In it, he implied that Mac would be cracked when they were no longer 'obscure'. That kind of logic is what lets MS off the hook for the many decades that they ignored security.

    As to this particular virus, yeah, they CHOSE Windows. They could have chosen to make the virus work via neutral arch (i.e. all intel/amd OS; which is hard), pure hardware (which is doable, but again hard), OR simply use a singular easy to hit target (which is always windows). Had germany had any real thoughts about Security, they would have done Linux, Mac, or simply Unix. Thank God that some damn lazy marketer foisted windows into Siemens. Otherwise, I think that it would have been a LOT MORE DIFFICULT to hit the box. Not because it is *nix, but because if you push *nix and push Security for the reason, then Iran would have had a secured network. As it is, Iranians are obviously just as foolish as others that run that junk, so it was exposed.

    Personally, I find it interesting that Iran is in such turmoil from it. If anybody wanted proof, that was it. The modification allows the final uranium to be usable for nuke plants, but it is worthless for bomb-making. IOW, Iran would have no reason to be concerned if this was for peaceful uses. The fact that they are near panic about it, says that this is purely about weapons. As such, I say that offer Iran an ultimatium:
    1. if you export to anywhere with the tech or the bomb and we have proof, then we will flatten ALL of their facilities and any nation that the tech was transfered to.
    2. if they explode a nuke, even as a test, we will do the same.
    3. if they Launch a missile at anytime, then we will flatten all of their military site and all locations including cities, in which we think that they have ANYTHING in a military fashion. IOW, we WILL wipe out their military.

    Finally, we change our no-nuke pledge to the world to include the possibility of using it on Iran and anybody that they transfer nuke tech to.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  51. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    O RLY?

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  52. What were they thinking? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    They were thinking: 'look at all this money'. Windows = minimum level of comfort to clueless PHBs that sign fat POs. Ca-ching!

    1. Re:What were they thinking? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      It's spelled "ka-ching".

      Maybe the GP is Spanish....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  53. The End of .... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    "Imperative that Congress move on legislation that would expand government controls and set requirements to make systems safer"

    Yep, Congress acting in the interest of the corporate-welfare state could end innovation in the USA. Market/Customer-base elitist protectionist legislation has never made anything, over the last 50 years, better or safer for people or economics.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  54. Re:You're a fear mongering fucktard by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Stuxnet is precise because it was designed to attack a very specific target and hide for as long as possible, not because it had to be. Anyone could use the same principles to attack a much broader range of PLC's and other SCADA systems much more aggressively.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  55. Liability? by taxman_10m · · Score: 1

    Is the government that created Stuxnet liable for any damage as a result of the modified version?

  56. Re:Still igoring the attack vector I see by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Stuxnet doesn't use the internet as its only attack vector. It also uses thumb drives and optical drives. That's how most of the facilities in Iran were infected.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  57. Corrections and insights. by AB3A · · Score: 1

    Correction: The Siemens WinCC software had that password, as did the Step 7 development package. Siemens used it as some sort of idiotic way to validate licenses. That is why they were unable to tell anyone to change the password. It was hardwired everywhere. Note that this password was disclosed publicly in 2008, and yet Siemens did nothing to change the code.

    The PLC did not have this password. The PLC was built on the assumption that those who have physical access to the unit have ultimate authority anyway (they can walk over to a motor control center and just turn a switch). In today's networked to everywhere situation, this looks foolishly quaint. However, back when these devices were designed, it was assumed that those who build these networks are doing all they can to block the traffic on to the office network.

    Unfortunately, there are way too many office IT "experts" who think that because they know the office that they know the plant floor IT as well. They design the one great big network of everything and then use a VLAN to keep it apart. The VLAN gets bridged when some dreamy eyed idiot wants to surf the web and monitor the plant from the same box. And that's when things go downhill pretty fast. I speak from experience. If you do any form of office IT, you would be wise to pause and think before you post your ignorance for the world to see. If you have never done embedded computing, worked on a Programmable Logic Controller, or managed a real industrial process, there will be surprises in store for you. This is not just another app.

    The Stuxnet PLC code was looking for something very specific. Current speculation leans toward the notion that this was aimed at the Uranium Enrichment facility in Natanz, Iran. However, there is only circumstantial evidence at best and the clues are awfully thin. Even if this is true, I doubt anyone will be confirming this story in our lifetimes.

    One of the interesting aspects to targeting an S7 PLC platform is this: It is one of the most popular PLCs world wide. If someone were to install a back door timebomb that stopped this PLC cold, the world economy as we know it would collapse in a matter of weeks. There is a significant amount of high energy stuff based upon this PLC platform. Aim at more than one platform of PLC and the world as we know it could change overnight.

    This is the Nuclear option of weaponized software. Anyone who launches an attack like this has very little concern for anyone but himself. That is why Stuxnet was probably so narrowly targeted at one facility. If they hadn't it would have blown back on the rest of the world.

    The lesson learned from Stuxnet is that the response by the CERT agencies world wide was either bad or awful. Even today, Siemens have very little to say about how to remove the Stuxnet rootkit. They'll only remove the payload carrier. Gee. Thanks. It would have done that by itself eventually.

    It took a business consultant like Ralph Langner to break open the first evidence of the nature of the PLC code. I was there at the ACS conference in DC when he gave his first presentation on the subject. Yes, there were rumors that INL was doing it too, but they never released their findings. DHS keeps stamping their work secret even when it would have been better not to.

    We need to do better. The CERT groups need to step up to the plate and realize that there are other platforms besides the PC. Furthermore, they also need to realize how issues of functional and I/O validation fit in to the picture, and how safety is handled. This may be a simpler platform in many ways, but the social and safety issues that go along with it make financial information system designs look like child's play. At least you can restore the latter from a backup and nobody gets maimed or killed.

    Welcome to my world...

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
  58. Sam pattern for politicians by uslurper · · Score: 1

    Funny, I see the same pattern in politicians.

    Campaign promises may be popular but at best are short-sighted and at worst outright lies. No one would vote for a candidate that campaigns on the premise of making those hard long-term decisions.

    "Humans in general and managers in particular are famously bad at correctly estimating the factors of low-probability/high-impact risks. Not always in the same direction - we vastly overestimate the risk of some stuff, and vastly underestimate others. "

    This is also true of politicians and I see many political issues that seem vastly over-hyped or under-valued.

    --
    oldhack: "Security is a waste of money until shit hits the fan. 5 minutes later, it becomes waste of money again. "
  59. Re:Guess which OS it targets? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

    You've obviously never owned a Linux server on the web.

    I have, for, oh, a decade or so, I'd say. I've had my machine rooted *once*, many many years ago. How? By having a POP3 server exposed to the world. Solution? Firewall. Problem == solved.

    'course, the same is true of any other OS. The key to securing a server: minimize your surface area, and stay updated. If your server is directly exposed to the internet, you're doing it wrong. Period.

  60. Not just the network. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Lots of IT pros have been screaming for a DECADE that only complete fucking morons put a SCADA system on anything that is connected to an external network. Let me repeat that. ONLY A COMPLETE MORON will hook up a scada system to a pc that bridges the internet and the secured network, OR puts the whole damn thing on a unsecured network.

    It's not just the network. Malware predates general Internet accessibility by a number of years. The earliest ones were spread by removable disks carried via sneakernet.

    "Only a complete moron" would build into a scada system a machine loaded with software that has THOUSANDS of wide-open known ways to infect it, if malware comes in on ANY vector: Network, removable disks, storage sticks, infrared flickering, WiFi signals, ...

    Such a machine is an agar plate waiting for the first bacterium to land. And a well designed chunk of malware (and this one looks like a masterpiece) can spread from network to machine to storage device to whatever and try them ALL, so that if there is even ONE POSSIBLE PATH it will be found.

    Which apparently is what happened to Iran's uranium enrichment system, since reports are that it WASN'T connected to the net.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  61. Re:industrial control systems? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Such mission critical systems should NEVER have untrusted media inserted, and they should NEVER be on the public internet. Further, inserting a media such as a USB stick should be safe because nothing should be automatically run.

    How about removing the commodity black-box software, chock full of known vulnerabilities, that is wide open to infection by such paths, replacing it with software where you CAN disable or control such access.

    Belt and suspenders.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  62. I do not mind the government telling industry that they must secure their systems. Who else is going to do that? Customers?

    Stockholders. B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  63. There's been something similar to that. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Next up: the police starts killing people so they can use the higher homicide rates to motivate expansion.

    Interestingly, there have been a number of instances of firemen, or whole fire departments, who committed repeated and serious arson.

    Probably more for the fun of putting the fires out than as a budget booster, but still ...

    However police administrations also have a long history of prescribing "solutions" to crime rates that actually increase them. The commonest one is opposing private use of guns for self-protection, which drastically hikes violentcrime rates. Others include the "DARE" program, which increases illegal drug use and related crime.

    And practically everything governments do create more problems than they claim to solve - often the same ones they claim to be solving. Wars on poverty increase the number and misery of the poor. Housing assistance ends up with people being thrown out of their homes. (This round isn't the first for the US: Search for "HUD houses".) Education. "Homeland Security". "War on terrorism" and the resulting "blowback" is just the latest in foreign policy bullying-inspiring-retaliation-by-asymmetric-warfare.

    I could go on for pages.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  64. Ok, Reality Check.... by gnalre · · Score: 1

    Ok lets get some real facts into this conversation.

    1. Windows should not be used in SCADA systems

    we all know that windows has a number of security holes. Whether this is because it is inherently insecure, its closed source aspect or its familiarity is a debating point. Probably some of all 3. Unfortunately it is a fact most SCADA systems use windows. The reason for this is historical. The most common SCADA communication system is OPC. When it was originally specified it was based on communication over DCOM. Now you could argue that this is one of the most insane decisions ever because basically it has given windows a near monopoly on SCADA over the past decade. However things are changing OPC-XA is the latest standard and this is more open. However the ubiquity of windows means that I can't see other OS making an impact anywhere in the near future. So we just need to deal with it.

    2. Outside networks should not be connected to a industrial control system.

    Great in theory, and maybe achievable in a factory environment as long as you have engineers on 24 hour call. But there are many situations where it is not practical. For example a offshore wind farm. In these situations unless you are going to lay your own cables, the most efficient way of monitoring your system is over the internet cloud. Now this does not mean you are using the internet. You will use VLAN over dedicated portals. Your system will be protected behind multiple firewalls.There are many levels of protection you can put in and while no protection is totally secure it will still survive the majority of attacks.

    In fact a greater danger is often not the internet but the ubiquity of USB memory keys. Basically if you lock down your system so there is no network access, support and commissioning engineering being persistent little buggers will find ways to make there life easier like putting patches on via USB keys which were only recently connected to there home computer. At least with network access you can monitor the activity.

    The one thing the Stuxnet virus has done is wake people up to the dangers. Most people who work in the industry new industrial systems are far less secure than say a banking system. However the assumption has been that because viruses were targeted at things like obtaining credit card details, there was little damage they could do if they infected a control network. Also the assumption was that control networks OS are outside the knowledge area of the average virus writer so targeted viruses would be rare. This is awake up call that now control systems are seen as the new battleground by governments. Why bomb a nuclear plant when you can plant a virus? There is going to a lot more emphasis on security on such systems going forward and that can only be a good thing

    --
    Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies