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Autism-Vax Doc Scandal Was Pharma Business Scam

Sockatume writes "In his second report, Brian Deer exposes how MMR-autism prophet Andrew Wakefield aimed to profit from the vaccine scare. Two years before the research that 'discovered' the MMR-autism link, Wakefield began courting interest in a hundred-million-dollar diagnostics firm. The doctor hoped to seed the company with government legal aid money and profit by charging 'premium prices' for new diagnostic tests to be used in vaccine injury lawsuits. By the time Wakefield published, the proposals had expanded into producing new 'safe' vaccines, two businesses to gather legal aid funding, and interest from partners including Wakefield's own hospital. The scheme ultimately disintegrated with the arrival of new leadership at Wakefield's hospital and ongoing scrutiny into his research."

541 comments

  1. Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? Someone was out to make money off of autism and vaccines? Say it ain't so!

    1. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by gomiam · · Score: 4, Insightful
    2. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by c6gunner · · Score: 1, Informative

      The worst part is that we've known about this for at least 6 years now. Here's an article from 2004:

      http://briandeer.com/mmr/st-wakefield-vaccine.htm

      It's always good to see that Slashdot is firmly at the cutting edge of science and technology ...

    3. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Moryath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I submit your son's troubles are directly causally related to exposure to you. After all, his condition declines with exposure to you.

      Facetious? Yes. At the same time, people are very good at convincing themselves that they understand the "cause" of something even when they don't. This is how superstitions are born. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is called a logical fallacy for a reason, yet for some reason there's a sizable, possibly majority, portion of the population that simply cannot grasp the difference between correlation, causation, and just plain coincidence.

    4. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Myopic · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did you ever give him steamed carrots? Like, the baby food with carrots in it? Or did you ever cook and mash up your own carrots? Or did your wife ever eat carrots and breastfeed your son? I don't want to cause undue alarm, but you need to search the web TODAY about carrots and developmental abnormalities. Seriously. Do it, and be careful with carrots until your child is at least in its teens.

    5. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by redemtionboy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My problem with this sir, is that even it did cause your son to get autism, which it didn't, it would still be worth it. Should we not spare 40% of children from DYING so that 1% doesn't get autism. That is easily worth the trade off.

    6. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny


      I'm sorry to hear about your son.

      I'm a Doctor (Doctor of Chiropractic). Please get your son in to a Chiropractor for immediate adjustments which can allow the nervous system to heal. If it hasn't been too long, the toxins in vaccines can be removed by chelation therapy. As a Chiropractor, I'm not allowed to make prescriptions but can recommend such treatments.

      Remember:
      - Proper Nutrition
      - Exercise
      - Regular Chiropractic treatment
      - Don't visit MDs, they are quacks.

      Good luck!

    7. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "redemtionboy" - Hey, Moron - it's spelled "redemption".

      http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=redemtion&aq=f&aqi=g-s4g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13

    8. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Addressed to all the previous respondents to parent, and the mods to same:

      Whoosh!

      I see there are many people here who still need a sense of humour implant.

      I would have thought the comment's title alone would have made it clear it was intended as a joke....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is the part of the whole thing I never understood. Even if we accept that vaccines increase the risk of Autism (which they don't), the problem they solve is much more serious. People die or get permanent life altering disabilities from the diseases we vaccinate against. To employ the very over the top rhetoric of the movement itself: "Don't these people understand that they're killing babies?!?!" Sure we don't have a lot of experience with most of these diseases, but that's precisely because we are nearly immune to them as a society. Remove the herd immunity and they go right back to killing people.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    10. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by eleuthero · · Score: 1, Funny

      His child is an "it" now? More importantly, it isn't carrots, it's garnets... pesky gems available widely in January. I highly recommend anyone who has to live through a January avoid people born in that month. Garnets are dangerous -- bad combination of minerals and color. Speaking of dangers, we should also note that peas are dangerous too... especially when attached to a pin and stuck into a large Starbucks straw.

    11. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your child is still alive you insensitive clod.

    12. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The fancy and +5 Insightful way to say 'CORRELATION IZ NOT CAUSATIONZ NEWB'

    13. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by redemtionboy · · Score: 0

      yeah, I realize this. I made the name up when I was 12 and have stuck with the alternate spelling ever since then. Deal with it.

    14. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by D'Sphitz · · Score: 0

      You forgot to suggest some homeopathic remedies.

    15. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by chronosan · · Score: 2

      A chiropractor is a massage therapist that believes in fairy tales.

    16. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by SemperUbi · · Score: 1

      Can you cite any published studies in peer-reviewed journals that would support your claim?

    17. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by thijsh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but even then there are different conclusions possible. If you assume autism or death was caused by a vaccine based on this fallacy why jump to the conclusion the vaccine is bad. It could just as well have been any other problem like contamination. This can of course be accidental but I would not even expect mayor manufacturers to destroy entire batches when a few are known to be polluted (after all they even shipped AIDS infected products knowingly so I don't really have their general code of ethics in high regard). So if and when jumping to conclusions based on incomplete evidence and a logical fallacy I would claim a polluted vaccine probably caused it instead of boycotting all vaccines...

    18. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by FictionPimp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Trying saying that to the mother of a son who died from whooping cough because she listened to 'experts' in the media and didn't get her children vaccinated.

    19. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by FictionPimp · · Score: 2

      I drink water every day. I'm assuming that the 500000000X dilution of adam and eve's piss should be so powerful it cures all illness.

    20. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Smallpond · · Score: 2

      The thing that came out recently was the outright fraud in the research. Previously, the science was assumed to just be not reproducible.

    21. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      Which is why you will never be a very good conspiracy theorist.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    22. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by ceiling9 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's kind of an interesting game theory problem - from the perspective of an individual parent, the risk of not vaccinating only their child is relatively low, given that they are assuming everyone else will be vaccinated. if there is even a tiny perceived danger in getting the vaccine (real or not), than the rational choice may really be to not be vaccinated. Unfortunately, this can lead to a Nash equilibrium, in that the outcome for the entire population is worse if everyone were to make this choice, similar to the prisoner's dilemma problem. From the perspective of the entire population, for example a public health official, it obviously makes sense to vaccinate everyone, even if there is some very small risk from the vaccine, as long as that risk is smaller than the risk of getting a disease without the vaccine.

    23. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 0

      Not a problem. Just hire a troll to say it for you. It's good for the economy.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    24. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      Although not specifically mentioned in "The Crackpot Index," the number of exclamation points does indicate zealous nuttery. Instead of -1 Flamebait, it probably deserves a +1 Successful Troll.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    25. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by thijsh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Shhhhht, that is what I want *them* to believe. ;)

    26. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      As a Chiropractor, I'm not allowed to make prescriptions but can recommend such treatments.

      - Don't visit MDs, they are quacks.

      Good luck!

      I think there are very good reasons that you aren't allowed to write prescriptions.

    27. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      ...especially when attached to a pin and stuck into a large Starbucks straw.

      Well now I'm going to have to go and get myself thrown out of my favorite coffee house. Thanks a lot.

    28. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not as bad as the prisoner's dillema, because there is a REALLY big payoff to being vaccinated if other people start choosing not to be vaccinated. GP has it right: people are unfamiliar with the diseases being vaccinated against, so they blindly disregard these much more serious outcomes.

    29. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by superflippy · · Score: 1

      You're a Clemson fan, aren't you? Trying to convice people Garnets are dangerous. Hmph!

      --
      Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
    30. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      Really, no. It's been known for years that the 'science' was utter rubbish. Previously Wakefield was known to be wrong, now he's known to be a fraudster.

    31. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by mattcsn · · Score: 1

      Are you sassing me in Eskimo talk?

    32. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by gomiam · · Score: 1
      If you are the AC I answered to, yes, I'm answering to you. My being impudent or insolent is, though, a matter of opinion. Oh, and just so you don't need to read the link I put just in case you didn't want to learn a little bit of Latin, here is my statement in English: correlation (things happening close together) does not mean causation (something happening because something else did).

      Yes, IHBT. IHL. IWHAND.

    33. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Worse, a chiropractor is a massage therapist that believes in fairy tales that many jurisdictions permit the use of "Doctor" in front of their names, creating the illusion of medical competency that simply does not exist.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    34. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Graff · · Score: 1

      I don't want to cause undue alarm, but you need to search the web TODAY about carrots and developmental abnormalities.

      No no no no no no!

      All of the real research is being done into dihydrogen monoxide, that insidious compound that has been known to be associated with many diseases!

      Although I hear that they are finding that hydrogen hydroxide can be useful in dealing with dihydrogen monoxide problems.

    35. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by johneee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or worse, how about the pre-vaccination age babies who died because kids around them hadn't been vaccinated. If it was just the people who didn't get the shot by choice who were dying, then I wouldn't mind this whole thing nearly as much. The problem is that once you fuck up herd immunity, you've fucked it up for everyone, including the very young, the very old, and those with compromised immune systems. And, of course, the really horrible thing is that the people who don't get the shot, may actually survive MMR perfectly well, since by the time they or their parents have made that choice they are a bit older and more able to resist the disease, they've just made it more dangerous for everyone around them.

      And (and and and...) of course, as other people have mentioned, they're putting a chunk of the population at risk of death, simply to save themselves from the (as it turns out, rather specious) chance of getting a no doubt life-changing, but absolutely non-fatal disease.

      In short, and pardon my directness, but speaking as a parent, fuck those who don't get the shots for themselves and their kids right in their entitled, self-centred, arrogant asses. They and their spawn should be given the choice to get them, and then airdropped on a remote island with all the rest of the assholes who think that the chance of their precious little snowflake having a disability is more important than the life of other people's so they can't screw it up for the rest of us. /rant finished.

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    36. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Eh, no. The whole point of the story was that the profit motive preceded the fraud. The GP is largely correct in his assertion.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    37. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear, I have not attempted this and any results you might have with larger peas from fresh (as opposed to frozen) produce sections should not be related to my above post.

    38. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by mattcsn · · Score: 1
    39. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by shentino · · Score: 1

      It may be a logical fallacy, but often times in practical use it makes a damn good heuristic.

    40. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      The difference being that chiropractic practices aren't based entirely on something utterly ludicrous. At least mechanical manipulation of the joints and soft tissues can have an effect on some conditions, namely those tied to the joints and tissues in question. That's already a step up from homeopathy, in which the treatment for all conditions is very expensive water, which can only directly treat being thirsty, and even then not very well in the doses provided.

    41. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by lingon · · Score: 1

      While most other replies to you have been rude, they are nevertheless true. It is *extremely important* that you do not start believing that your son's vaccinations caused any trouble with him and leave that to rigorously controlled scientific studies.

      The reason is that the ones making sure the anti-vaccination crowd always have a saying are not themselves, it's the parents with that small doubt. It's the parents thinking "I don't believe there is a link between vaccinations and autism. Although perhaps the idea shouldn't be thrown out the window, our child/the neighbour's child/that guy at works' child has autism and it became prominent just after the vaccinations. Perhaps there is something small to it after all?". That kind of thinking needs to stop *right now*, or more children will die from preventable diseases.

    42. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Rallion · · Score: 1

      Sometimes. If a chiropractor tells you they are going to cure your indigestion and improve your vision and align your chakras, then yeah. That person is either crazy or lying. If a chiropractor tells you that they might be able to relieve some spinal issues, that's a different story.

    43. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      I drink water every day. I'm assuming that the 500000000X dilution of adam and eve's piss should be so powerful it cures all illness.

      That wouldn't work unless Adam and Eve's piss in undiluted form could cause all illness. You should really talk to a professionally licensed homeopath!

      No seriously, homeopathy is even dumber than just "the more diluted the more powerful". It's also "something that causes a symptom, once diluted, cures that symptom, even if it's not what actually caused the symptom in this case." So, you know, inflammation due to the venom of a biting or stinging animal can be cured by diluting some other animal's venom, or probably just any inflammatory substance.

      So I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that the diluted solution of Adam and Eve's urine that we're all drinking would cure Original Sin. Boy isn't that one going to throw the Catholic Church for a loop!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    44. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.thechiropracticjournal.com/

      Real papers by real Doctors.

    45. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 0

      One question is ... why is this a "pharma business scam" ? This guy was a government employee when he committed his scam. He worked in the UK, where vaccines are not part of the private sector, then in Canada, where the same is true. This guy was scamming the government, while being part of that same government. Given that the vaccine was indeed shut down and another bought, for multiple countries' national health insurance, one would think that this scam made several million dollars change hands ...

      This guy had all the titles on could possibly ask for. You know, this was one of the guys that Obama has now given all medical decisions to, "to lower costs". Of course, he was found out. How many of this type of scams succeeded ?

      The fraudulent research, for 12 years(1993-2005) , was about as evidence-based as you can get. It had been researched, published, peer-reviewed, re-published. Then replication was attempted, and this replication failed (and at this point he was not accused of fraud - for good reason - research fails to be replicated all the time and lots of research is never replicated. Maybe it's impractical, maybe there's no money, and 95% certainty limits that 5% of medical research will be outright wrong - with no fraud at all involved - and hopefully unreplicateable)

      Even with these accusations, the 95% bound on "believability" means that 1 in 20 research papers - with correct statistics - is outright wrong, over all fields of study. Does it really need to be said that most non-exact disciplines do not see statistics as a core research subject to be taught to students ? Some studies have found that as many as 86% of medical research papers had insufficiently verified their conclusions - purely based on math. 36% had outright wrong math in them. Needless to say, this means that the correctness of 86% of medical research papers is in question.

      But suppose Obama says (not that he does this, but hey) we'll only use "verified" science. That means 2 peer-reviewed publications. Let's see what happens. That means that 1 in 400 (20*20) decisions is flat-out-wrong in the theoretically optimum case.

      In real life, based on the 86-30% research, about 1 in 9 or 12% of honestly taken medical decisions based on verified research will be wrong - at least (30% * 30%) and worst case 86% * 86% or 74% of decisions will be wrong.

      If we take the reality of "evidence-based healthcare" - without replication, between 30% and 86% of decisions taken by an honest board (you know the "death panel") will be wrong.

      This is BEFORE any fraud occurs on the part of these political appointees - which will control the medical spending of 300 million americans, and therefore will have a HUGE incentive for cheating.

      How is this going to work again ?

    46. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Actually, you bring up a good point. It, also, points out where the line should be for mandatory vaccines. There was some talk about making Gardasil a mandatory vaccination. The problem with making Gardasil mandatory is that the risk it guards against is relatively low (compared to polio or measles). Additionally the risk is behavior dependant. Therefore, the decision as to whether or not to use Gardasil should be a decision that is made by the parents in consultation with their family doctor after weighing the various risks. I used Gardasil because it was big news in the last few years and I am somewhat familiar with it. I am pretty sure there are other vaccinations out there that would be good examples as well. I am afraid that some of them are mandatory, but I hope I am mistaken.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    47. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          So are you saying that the theory that says stupid is contagious is wrong? Every time I see one stupid-infected person, there are other stupid-infected individuals nearby. I've seen instances where one stupid (but buxom) blond walks into a room, and every man and half the women are turned into drooling idiots. The incubation period appears to be less than a second.

          That, kind sir, is what is going to be the Apocalypse of 2012. Not a comet crashing into the earth. Not a grand flood. It will be a viral pandemic of stupid.

          Just as we've done with vampires and zombies in centuries past, we must eliminate the threat now! Do it quickly, before you become too stupid to act!

          What was that you were saying about causality and correlation? Which is better, to prove me wrong, or agree and thin out the scourge of stupid? :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    48. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    49. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are making some mighty big assumptions in your numbers there fella. Probably not a good idea when you are bashing others for making them in theirs.

      Not every research publication has a p value of .05 to give a 1 in 20 chance of being a random event. I've published a number of papers with conclusions based on p values of .000000001. So a lot fewer medical papers are going to be wrong based on random chance than the numbers you are slinging around would.

    50. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. All it does is give you a place to start research. If you observe A, and then B happens afterward, the very next thing you should do is come up with a falsifiable experiment that attempts to prove or disprove A caused B.

      It's not a heuristic of anything because you can spend all day coming up with fallacies. Here's one. My alarm clock causes the sun to come up. One always happens after the other, right? So it's a heuristic, right? Wrong. It's speculation. Make a falsifiable experiment. Turn the alarm clock off and see if the sun still comes up. Test it. Then you have your heuristic.

      Speculation isn't anything but speculation.

      Getting back to the original topic, these jackasses who put this scam forward should be held personally responsible for every child that missed their vaccinations from the scare. It always amazes me when businesses will actually put profits ahead of human lives. Why we don't send people like this - or tobacco executives, or people who hide design flaws in cars - to jail for life is beyond me. Killing people for money should be an across-the-board kind of a thing. If someone pays someone else a few thousand to shoot someone it's first degree murder. But if you do it for the stockholders it's somehow okay.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    51. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by mog007 · · Score: 2

      It's the multi-player version of the prisoner's dilemma. It's called the "tragedy of the commons".

    52. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Nick+Ives · · Score: 1

      Determining causation for health issues isn't one of those times though.

      --
      Nick
    53. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      The argument for mandatory vaccines could just as easily be used as an argument for mandatory kidney harvesting.

    54. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do and did. I got all the vaccinations for my child. Potty mouth.

    55. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, that is simply stupid. There are certainly a lot of witch doctor chiropractors out there, but claiming that moving a bone that is out of place, back into place has not medical value is just...well...stupid. If you pull your arm out of it's socket, and you go to the emergency room, the doctor will put it back in it's socket. That IS chiropractics. It is chiropractics in it's most crude sense, but it is chiropractics all the same. To claim that chiropractics is a fairy tale is to claim that putting a persons arm bone back in it's socket when it has been pulled out isn't really helping and any precieved improvement is just the patients imagination.

      Are you REALLY going to claim that? Really?

    56. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by jasno · · Score: 1

      I know you're joking, but you could be right! I just ran across a study linking(weakly) lavender to breast growth in prepubescent males. Who the hell would have thought that something like lavender could affect sexual development?

      http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064725

      The world is probably full of phytochemicals that could have health consequences if consumed in sufficient amounts.

      --

      http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
    57. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      If the spine was out of alignment as much as chiropractors claimed, the patient would be crippled.
      The spine cannot be manipulated like that, it is not a weak length of bones as they would tell you.

      All of this was demonstrated in cadaver studies in the early 1910s (or 1920s).

    58. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by c_sd_m · · Score: 1

      Nash equilibrium isn't necessarily the most rational solution, given sufficient information. Look at fishing as a tragedy of the commons problem: it makes sense for each player to overfish as much as possible, which eventually degrades the stocks. But if you know everyone's going to do it, then you'd be a fool to stake your livelihood on it for the long term. Same with vaccines, if you can predict that enough other parents won't vaccinate their kids then you'll realize that the risk of measles to your kid will rise significantly. So then it's rational to vaccine your kid. Or you could hedge it and run the probabilities assuming a 50% chance of significant some loss of herd immunity, 25% chance of no change, and 25% chance of enough kids not being vaccinated and the viruses mutating. Part of the definition of Nash equilibrium is that no other player in the game can change their strategy if you change yours. If you model the diseases as players since their effects can be affected by the actions of the other players, then you have a player whose strategy may change if you change yours. So it's not Nash equilibrium in that model.

    59. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Although not specifically mentioned in "The Crackpot Index," the number of exclamation points does indicate zealous nuttery.

      Actually, I was counting the number of times he put '1' in instead of '!' as an indication of a deliberate joke....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    60. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Jerry · · Score: 1

      I'm sure your opinion is well founded in facts, but here are facts which suggest you are wrong.

      There are quacks among both MDs and Chiropractors. An MD gave my son and I Hepatitis B, which nearly killed him since he got the first dose of anti-biotic from a glass syringe the doctor "sterilized" between shots. He gave the person he treated before he treated my son an anti-biotic shot to treat that person's case of Hep B. I would never had known the source of our Hep B had not his nurse been a former student of mine and called to tell me of his "practice" of using glass syringes to save money. He lost his medical license as a result. Both of my feet give constant pain while walking after two failed surgeries, by different doctors claiming they could "fix" my severe case of hammer toes. The literature is filled with examples of incompetent doctors doing damage to their patients.

      I met a Chiropractor who claimed he could cure the common cold with spinal adjustments. He was suffering from a cold at the time.

      My sister was in an automobile accident and had her jaw fractured in several places. She recovered from her injuries but over the next 10 years she suffered severe headaches, and her sight in one eye went from color to black and white, with tunnel vision, before becoming totally blind. She was on high doses of analgesics for years. She grew weak on the same side and eventually was confined to a wheel chair. The vision in her other eye became black and white and started to tunnel. Tons of X-Rays, MRI's and CAT scans over the years didn't show the doctors any reason for her illness, which they attributed to mental causes, but didn't hesitate to add that she probably didn't have long to live if the paralysis continued to spread.

      My brother-in-law took her to a home show to get her out and put her mind on something other than her troubles. They happened to stop at a Chiropractor's booth. He briefly examined her and announced, without any prior knowledge, that she had been in an auto accident and it caused a small dislocation of one of her vertebra. Over the next several months of therapy my sister discarded the wheel chair, strength returned to her right arm and leg, and more importantly, color vision returned to her remaining good eye. Unbelievably, within a year full color vision returned to her other eye. While the vertebral displacement could account for the lateral weakness I still don't understand how it could have led to her loss of vision.

      She filed a lawsuit against Kaiser HMO (Colorado) and the doctors who treated her and with a court order obtained her original X-rays following the car accident, and on many visits afterwords. They were compared with ones taken by the Chiropractor on her first visit and on her last visit. All of the X-rays showed an approximate 1/8 inch displacement of a vertebra, except the last one taken before the Chiropractor discharged her. The lawsuit was thrown out because of problems getting other doctors in Colorado to testify, and out-of-state doctors being rejected by the court, but Kaiser gave her $15,000, which supposedly was reimbursement for her visits lawyer fees. They got off light.

      The next time I saw her, about 5 years after her lawsuit, she was wearing an nasal cannula connected to an Oxygen bottle. Forty years of smoking did what an accident couldn't. She got tired of living her life tethered to an Oxygen bottle and still having breathing become more difficult as the Emphysema progressed. She checked herself into a hospital, took off the nasal cannula, and specifically requested no heroic efforts to save her life. It took her three days to die of suffocation. She was one tough gal, and I miss her.

      Personally, I always prefer a Chiropractor to a "Physical Therapist" for problems relating to physical trauma.

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

    61. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by johneee · · Score: 1

      Oh, and in case it wasn't clear from the above note, I did get my son vaccinated, knowing all the risks and possibilities involved on both sides. Even if there was a chance that the vaccination did do everything people said it did, I would have been in there holding him while the doctor jabbed him in the legs.

      And if he had become autistic, I would have loved him the same as I do now, but I don't think it would have changed my mind and each and every subsequent kid would have recieved the vaccinations as well.

      Why? Because that's the price you pay for living in a civilisation where most of these diseases have been eradicated. It's like taxes and obeying traffic laws - it might suck, but unless you pay the price, you don't have the moral right to recieve the protections they afford you.

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    62. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Jerry · · Score: 1

      Homeopathy IS a scam, as anyone with a degree in Chemistry or Biochemistry can tell you. Many DOUBLE BLIND studies have been done testing the claims: Homeopathy's efficacy beyond the placebo effect is unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence.

      To maintain their scam proponents make the absurd claim that "water has memory", so even though physiological agents may have been removed by dilution, the water "remembers" what the preparation is "supposed to do".

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

    63. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      But suppose Obama says (not that he does this, but hey) we'll only use "verified" science. That means 2 peer-reviewed publications. Let's see what happens. That means that 1 in 400 (20*20) decisions is flat-out-wrong in the theoretically optimum case.

      What's the alternative?

      I'm not actually sure what you're objecting to. Are you opposed to the scientific process? Or are you just arguing against government involvement in medicine? Since the same process is used in all fields of science, are you opposed to government involvement in ANY scientific endeavors? And, if we refuse to allow science to sway political decisions, what process do you propose replace it? Blind guesswork?

      I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you've said, although the AC already pointed out one of your errors. Much of it is pretty accurate. I'm just not sure what it is that you're proposing.

    64. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "pre-vaccination age babies" don't really die just "because kids around them hadn't been vaccinated" - you're acting just like Wakefield, scare the shit out of parents to achieve the results you're interested in.

    65. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Anyone who's been following the debacle has known for years that it was outright fraud. It's just that now we have an "official finding" that we can point to. But I get what you're saying; I guess for most people this might be big news, but my first reaction was "wow, yeah, and the sky is blue, too".

    66. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, some anecdotal stories... it's always the same for those trying to promote the lies of pseudomedicine.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    67. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      So you're saying we should have no control over our own bodies, because you know so well what is good for everyone? That we shouldn't be allowed to weigh the benefits and risks on our own, because your highness already has? That you support the government grabbing adults and children alike and injecting them with substances against their will?

      Quite thankfully, that's why you aren't in a position to enforce your will upon the world. Unfortunately, some people will never learn that their opinions aren't gospel truth. You're one of them.

      I am not against vaccines, but people like you are exactly why we're quickly losing our freedoms. Same fucking argument as "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear," except dressed up differently. You make me sick.

    68. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      How about I'm arguing for government to stay out of every decision it can reasonably stay out of ?

      Which would of course mean that people choose for themselves which docter they believe - and NOT that the government decides for them.

      The problem with that is that if you make government pay for healthcare, while giving people these options, you're heading into disaster. Unlimited spending "tends to go wrong". But no problem ! If government does not have anything to do with paying for it, the problem goes away.

      And if you wish to provide healthcare for the poor, how about you ... go out and do that ! Or donate money. Or ... But how about you do not force others to do it in your stead, them start balking about how "moral" this is supposed to be.

    69. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by johneee · · Score: 1

      Bullshit:

      "All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness, which is why parents and caretakers are being urged to get booster shots. Typically, babies are given a series of vaccinations, then receive booster shots between ages 4 and 6 and again after age 10.

      Many parents forgo vaccines for their children because of concerns about autism, typically fueled by misinformation on the Internet, said Dr. Mark Sawyer, a University of California-San Diego professor and fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics."

      http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2010/09/17/9-infant-deaths-in-california-whooping-cough-outbreak/

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    70. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by johneee · · Score: 1

      If you read my comment, you'll see that I have no problem with people deciding for themselves what they should or shouldn't do.

      However, as the old saying goes, your freedoms end where mine begin, and since their freedom to not vaccinate clearly infringes on the rest of the world's desire to not die, society has the right and to a certain extent responsibility to exclude those who endanger it by their choice of inaction.

      Do I really think people should be airdropped on an island? No. I was engaging in a certain amount of rhetorical exageration.

      I do think that any daycare or school that I send my son to must have a policy of vaccinations for everyone who attends, and I think that hospitals should have a policy of not allowing those who are vaccinated to visit, and if a hopsital needs to admit someone who hasn't done what they should, they should put them in a different wing than those who have until they've been proven not to be carriers.

      I am not alone in wanting to restrict behaviour that endangers the society we live in. Try building a breeder reactor in your backyard and see how fast your freedoms get curtailed. Spray Agent Orange to get rid of your weeds, run your waste water pipe out to the street into the storm drain, shout fire in a crowded theatre or play Justin Beiber at concert levels in the middle of the night, and then tell me how far your liberty goes. How about you punch out a cop, shoot a bank teller or shit on the sidewalk? What, you wouldn't be allowed to do any of those? Better break out the blue wode and claymore! Your FREEDOMS have been curtailed!

      Get my point yet? For a society to function healthily, reasonable restrictions and patterns of behaviour have to be put on people. If you really don't want to be a part of that, and play by the rules, you should find a place where you don't have to, but be aware that you don't get to receive the benefits of the rules either.

      I make you sick? Huh. Must be catching.

      --
      - ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
    71. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      OK, here goes (can't decide whether you're trolling so I'll bite)

      One question is ... why is this a "pharma business scam" ? This guy was a government employee when he committed his scam.

      He was involved in a number of companies selling vaccines, and had pending patents on single vaccines, and was apparently involved in companies to sell those single vaccines. He was also on the payroll of a group set up to litigate in the context of multiple (MMR) vaccines. So it wasn't "big pharma", but definitely he was involve in pharma.

      This guy had all the titles on could possibly ask for.

      Wakefield was an [adult] gastroenterologist doing research in paediatrics and autism, both fields in which he had no titles.

      The fraudulent research, for 12 years(1993-2005) , was about as evidence-based as you can get. It had been researched, published, peer-reviewed, re-published.

      Very few people took Wakefield's evidence seriously at the time, it was always contentious. Subsequent studies were not done to replicate Wakefield's findings, they were done to lend weight to the mainstream, orthodox view that his research was bunkum.

    72. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      ...especially when attached to a pin and stuck into a large Starbucks straw.

      Well now I'm going to have to go and get myself thrown out of my favorite coffee house. Thanks a lot.

      I get myself thrown out of Starbucks all the time, but usually it's because I'm shooting peas out of a straw at fellow customers, the servers, etc.

    73. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by gomiam · · Score: 1

      Oh, am I supposed to know about that series? AFAIK, it doesn't get aired here in Spain ;)

    74. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by gomiam · · Score: 1

      Correction, it _is_ aired. I have never watched Big Bang Theory though.

    75. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by gomiam · · Score: 1

      You are mistaken. He states that his son was alright, was vaccinated, and after vaccination his son started having problems. In this context he is implying there is a cause (vaccination) and effect (problems) without providing any more information. As such, it's a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy (sassing in Eskimo talk aside).

    76. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      How about I'm arguing for government to stay out of every decision it can reasonably stay out of ?

      Sure, I'd buy that, but I don't see how you get to that point by criticizing the best method of discovery which we have. Essentially, your argument boils down to "the government is going to make mistakes no matter what, so let's keep them out of it so that people can make even more mistakes". I'm not sure that this is a logical argument :)

      You could make the point that while individuals on their own will tend to make worse decisions, at least those decisions won't affect everyone. That could be a valid argument. But, again, attacking the scientific publication and review process doesn't really get you there.

    77. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      Also, I've put together this custom bag of supplements you can buy for $50, and, oh here is this pamphlet showing how simple and logical the cause of and solution to your medical problem is...for only 15 bucks. Also, I'll need your email address so I can follow up on you... You'll probably want to receive my monthly newsletter, its only $5 a month. And hey can you fill out this questionnaire really quick...

      Oh I see this in almost all my patients. You have a sub-clinical (fungal, bacterial, oxygen) deficiency or subclinical (fungal, bacterial, acid) excess. Taking this medication for 4 months at a sub-clinical dosage will care of that, I can sell you all you'll ever need for $250. So remember to watch your diet and stress levels, don't forget to spit into a clear glass of water every morning to see if your spit sinks to the bottom. If that ever happens it'd be best for you to come back for a second visit before you get toxic, the problem is my treatment worked too well and we need to replace the (fungus, bacteria, acid) using this second package. Most of my patients never return to me though so you probably won't have to worry about it.

    78. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      Carrots have significant amounts of dihydrousmonoxide.

    79. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by SemperUbi · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I'll check it out.

    80. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Why don;t we just call it as we see it;

      Reckless endangerment: A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. “Reckless” conduct is conduct that exhibits a culpable disregard of foreseeable consequences to others from the act or omission involved. The accused need not intentionally cause a resulting harm or know that his conduct is substantially certain to cause that result. The ultimate question is whether, under all the circumstances, the accused’s conduct was of that heedless nature that made it actually or imminently dangerous to the rights or safety of others.

      What Wakefield and other charlatan espousing the imaginary dangers of vaccinations need to feel the full weight of the law in this matter. Not everybody can be vaccinated and people who can be and aren't due to superstitions suggested by these charlatans for personal gain pose a danger who can't.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    81. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by SquirrelDeth · · Score: 1

      so I don't really have their general code of ethics in high regard
      But yet you trust them? Wow you were the bright one of the litter weren't you?!

    82. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by lingon · · Score: 1

      Whoever modded this up: Shame on you! Of course arguments for mandatory vaccinations can be used for mandatory *everything*, including both positive and negative things as long as they have a net benefit for society, that doesn't mean they have anything in common with each other.

    83. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by lingon · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the parent talked about a chiropractor moving a vertebra, thus fixing a spinal problem. While I agree with you generally, it seems that in this case, patient first encountered a bunch of incompetent MDs that missed an obvious problem and the chiropractor fixed the obvious spinal cord problem.

      Now chiropractice is of course pseudomedicine, but in this case, moving vertebra could fix problems with a dislocated vertebra.

    84. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      They are both medical procedures that carry risk. Seems like they have a LOT to do with each other. If you can't see the connection between two medical procedures where it is suggested that they be mandatory for the benefit of OTHER people, your just not looking hard enough.

    85. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      You are twisting logic to fit your cynicism. There are frauds in the public sector, but there are even more frauds in the private sector. And I'm talking about real frauds, those that cheat people out of their money by fraudulent misrepresentation, not just the dishonest market-power leveraging industries such as finance.

    86. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by thijsh · · Score: 1

      I trust science in general, and when there have been billions of vaccinations given without too many side effects (all of which are well documented) but there is still the possibility that something else goes wrong. When something does (after all children *have* died directly after vaccination) the cause is either a mass coverup of faulty vaccines or another simpler problem. I don't trust medical company's, like any company can't be trusted by their nature, but it i'll believe the logical simplest explanation.

    87. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      I thought that was more or less my point. Chiropractic is "fairy tales" in some ways, but it's still a step up from small amounts of very expensive water (which can itself only actually treat thirst, and even then not well in the quantities provided) which is all homeopathy is, as mechanical manipulation of the joints and soft tissues can at least treat mechanical issues that deal with those same joints and tissues.

    88. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!1111!11! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Well my counterargument will be :

      1) I refuse to believe that any collection of docters and politicians, no matter how skilled they may be, are going to take decisions from 5000 km distance, about theoretical "classes" of patients that will outperform what a doctor, patient in front of him, lots of medical history available, will decide about a living, breathing human being in front of him. The govt. healthcare will be like mcDonalds : strong, central bureaucracy, resulting in -at the very best- bad, but edible food, or healthcare. Our current system is like the restaurants in cities - lots of quality differences - some good, some bad. One in a hundred is even worse than mcdonalds. On average, however, they are *much* better than the forced central bureaucracy.

      (In Europe, this happens, one of the results is that doctors are forced to use certain approved medicines (at most 1 or 2 per disease), even when it has been established before that that patient is unresponsive -or worse- allergic. Thank God that in Belgium, you *are* allowed to violate the govt's prescriptions as a doctor, but it's very, very costly. So while people may get prescribed the other alternative medicine, this takes self-sacrifice from doctors. And in general, the older doctors do this without thinking, most younger ones don't often do this)

      2) any mistakes by this central obama bureaucracy will affect everyone. A bad doctor, worst case, will affect a few dozen patients. A bad apple on the "death panels" will kill thousands.

      3) People that make their own decisions, based on a realistic assesment of their own situation, can take responsability for what they do. If a patient dies (or simply does not do well) due to medical error under national healthcare, it's Obama's fault. It's not the patient's responsability since he could not possibly have done anything to improve it. A different doctor, using the same central bureaucracy's categories will take the same - potentially wrong - decision.

      Now if a patient does bad, because of something that could be prevented, it is likely that going to several doctors could have prevented the calamity. Furthermore, the patient is presented with all choices, and then has to make his own decision, factoring in everything that matters : money, moral implications, chances of recovery, ...

      All these factors will still exist in Obama's "death panels", they will simply make a -potentially bad*- choice and force it on eveyone, and then in true government fashion, refuse to admit they made some mistakes when patients start doing bad, or even dying. This will happen, regardless of the fact that many doctors will in fact know better.

      * you cannot make a one-size-fits-all decision in healthcare. Of course the whole point of Obama's system is that he does do that. People with types of diseases that are not well-known or in some way strange (the majority of serious diseases), will get suboptimal decisions forced upon them.

      ** the decisions of the "death panels" will be -partly- based on wrong science, so there's no question what will happen. Meanwhile the people in these panels never see a living patient, never mind that they see real patients for all the categories they decide about. Do you honestly believe they'll prefer reality over what their papers say ? We've established theory and practice could be very different in quite large classes of patients.

  2. Heh by Pojut · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know it's not the same thing, but this sorta reminds me of that TNG episode where two planets were suffering from a plague, and the cure was on one planet...but the cure was also a narcotic. One planet cured themselves of the addiction, but kept selling it to the other planet under the false pretense they would die if they didn't continue consuming it (their symptoms were withdrawal, not plague death.) I love how at the end of it, Piccard is like "Let's get as far away from this system as we can. Screw these loonies, let them duke it out." Can't remember the name of the episode, but I know it was in the first season.

    1. Re:Heh by Moryath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem here is, Wakefield's scam has actually caused the death of hundreds of kids and caused thousands of others to get sick with completely preventable illnesses.

      He's personally responsible for causing outbreaks of diseases which were all but eradicated to spring back up as enough stupid parents followed the lead of batshit-insane people to break down what we call "herd immunity", which is also what we rely on to protect the small number of people in society who don't get vaccinations for "religious" reasons or because they have a demonstrable allergy to one of the vaccine components.

      Further, the "debate" over this has increased distrust of doctors, which isn't helpful. We already have enough problems with hypochondriacs who should have their WebMD access taken away because they are constantly convinced they are "special" people with some rare, exotic illness rather than a garden-variety head cold.

    2. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      He indirectly contributed to the deaths of 6 kids. no need for hyperbole

    3. Re:Heh by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      "Symbiosis". A decent ep, but more notable as having Kirk's son from the movies in one of the guest roles.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    4. Re:Heh by wjousts · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...to break down what we call "herd immunity", which is also what we rely on to protect the small number of people in society who don't get vaccinations for "religious" reasons or because they have a demonstrable allergy to one of the vaccine components.

      And also those for who get the vaccine, but it just plain doesn't work, for whatever reason.

    5. Re:Heh by gmuslera · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The worst problem is that it don't ends now. For years (centuries?) from now people will refuse to vaccine kids because "i hear somewhere that it causes autism", that kind of lies, misunderstandings and myths are documented that remain for very long, no matter what science says loudy all around (like some few examples that came to light recently)

    6. Re:Heh by MogNuts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. Thank Jenny McCarthy for that. And Oprah.

      Oprah has done a lot of good, so she gets a pass. But again a reason that celebrities should just shut up and do their job, because almost 100% in any other aspect of life, they're idiots.

    7. Re:Heh by sorak · · Score: 1

      The punchline there was that the planet selling the narcotics needed the Enterprise's help to get cargo lines reestablished. So, by leaving them high and dry, he was creating a situation where the one planet would get past their withdrawal before cargo could be reestablished.

    8. Re:Heh by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I have worked in the med-device industry since 1990, the whole time doing cutting edge research while anticipating the probable outcome of that research so the company can patent solutions to the problems that people don't know they need to solve yet.

      Ultimate goal: profit. Scheming to make millions? Yes, we all did it. I have been under the impression we are acting like good capitalists following the American dream, taking risks to have a chance of reaping great rewards. Falsifying research, suppressing unwanted results? Not in my jobs, but rumors of bigger companies (especially pharma), doing it abound.

      The whole vax/anti-vax thing has evolved into a sad prejudiced polarization of opinion, worse than religion and politics for most people I hear debating it.

      You could show me a video of Jenny McCarthy giving Dr. Wakefield a blow job before he published his "research" and even if I believed the video was authentic, it isn't going to sway my opinion on whether or not following the current U.S. recommended vaccine schedule is in the best interests of my children. Wakefield's study is just one data point among millions, and it never was the fundamental basis for my opinions. I had already discounted his findings it when I learned that he had funding to do a study on 150 children, but declined to do so, staying pat with his results from 12.

    9. Re:Heh by Antisyzygy · · Score: 0

      Doctors already do enough whereby they should not be trusted. In my own personal case, having a doctor tell my wife "they will pray for her" rather than try to solve her problem is enough to throw up a red flag for me. Or the fact that they advocate CT scans for things that can be diagnosed by x-ray or ultrasound, or the fact that they don't even bother to prescribe medicines to you you actually know will help you from previous experience. Doctors have a "I know this you don't" attitude that is draconian in light of, uhhh the INTERNET. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out that this dude is a dirt bag like many other doctors.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    10. Re:Heh by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Frankly, people that stupid don't deserve to procreate anyway. I don't advocate child abuse but it is absolutely ridiculously stupid to believe horse shit like "vaccines cause autism" if you have half a brain. Autism is a similar symptom of a myriad of diseases or genetic/developmental abnormalities. To think it has some cause effect relationship with dead bits of virii or proteins is asinine.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    11. Re:Heh by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Scientology. Tom Cruise.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    12. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And i'm an engineer because I can Google how a bridge works.......
      Let me guess, your experience was with American health care

      Or you were just looking for oxys and docs said no....

    13. Re:Heh by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      And of course, none of those kids will be allowed to go to school (at least in my state, no one is allowed in without a certain set of vaccines... I guess homeschooling is an option, but the home school crowd usually does so because they want a better education than is being provided by the state / private schools and would likely be aware of the scam issues) and thus, won't impact the majority of people when they get sick... this is a tragedy because they will have less apparent value to society already (I am not saying they actually have less value but that society tends not to appreciate the value of the uneducated today).

    14. Re:Heh by grub · · Score: 2


      Vaccines disrupt the body's humours!

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    15. Re:Heh by tist · · Score: 1

      ...batshit-insane people...

      Like Scott Shoemaker http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/07/chelation-and-t.html. I happen to know Scott and Josh. His story is anecdotal, I admit. But the effect of treatment on his son is a matter of fact, not up for interpretation. I saw a boy who spun in circles and rolled his eyes constantly. Who could not talk to his parents and was afraid of his little sister. After his treatment, he was (and still is) quite normal. How did Josh get Autism? I don't know. Did he have Autism? Don't know that either. Did he have heavy metal poisoning? If you look up the symptoms you'll see they are quite similar. I know this is unpopular among the slashdot crowd, but it is an accurate accounting of a real life incident.

    16. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This scam completely backfired. The goal was to break a single vaccine into 3 different vaccines and charge three times as much. Instead people decided not to get ANY vaccines and go to "alternative therapies" outside of big pharma. I'm a big advocate for ethics courses to be taught as a big part of any MBA program.

    17. Re:Heh by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Also how much research money and precious time were diverted to chase this false Austism-vaccine correlation instead of pursuing other avenues of research.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    18. Re:Heh by Moryath · · Score: 5, Informative

      Did he have heavy metal poisoning? If you look up the symptoms you'll see they are quite similar.

      In order to get heavy metal poisoning from vaccines, you'd have to get vaccinated on the order of multiple times daily. There are much easier ways to get yourself an accumulation of toxic metals.

      On the other hand, there's every chance Scott Shoemaker's kid was chewing on shitty chinese-made Cadmium-laced or lead-laced toys. Or chewing lead paint from the house's walls.

      Blaming the vaccines is stupid.

    19. Re:Heh by Wilf_Brim · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, a bit worse. The MMR vaccine (measles component notably) does not have a 100% response. Since in my facility we began testing for immunity I've come to agree with the ~90% response rate, at best. So, even with 100% coverage, only 90% (give or take) are going to be immune. If you take away allergies, and immunocomprimise, it doesn't take huge numbers of vaccine resfusers to drop below the 80% required for herd immunity. Thus, the outbreaks of measles in the UK, Canada, US and (ongoing) in Australia and NZ.

    20. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the home school crowd usually does so because they want a better education than is being provided by the state / private schools...

      Hah! At least in California, most of the home-schoolers I've encountered are whack-jobs, and I'd say more accepting of the autism scam and other baseless conspiracy bullshit than the general population. Usually their desired education is "better" as in fully indoctrinating into their precious worldview, without the challenge of exposure to normal kids and socialization of public schools.

    21. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doctors have a "I know this you don't" attitude

      Because with 99.999% of patients, this is exactly the case. Years of med school and practice can't be substituted with 10 minutes of googling generic symptoms.

      or the fact that they don't even bother to prescribe medicines to you you actually know will help you from previous experience

      Maybe the doctor had good reasons not to? From the doctor's point of view he sees the patient basically saying 'I want $PILL give it to me! why aren't you giving it to me?" Sure, it's wise to tell doctor about the medication and its effects, but don't automatically assume the doctor is out to screw them if he doesn't immediately grab the Rx pad and ask 'how many months can i put ya down for?' Ask the doc to explain his decision.

      Of course doctors can make mistakes. If you believe the doctor is in the wrong, there are other doctors to get opinions from.

      having a doctor tell my wife "they will pray for her" rather than try to solve her problem

      If the doctor just plain is a jerk, then fair enough, find a new one. I wouldn't write off a whole field because of a few jerkoffs (I mean, look at the software field)

    22. Re:Heh by stephathome · · Score: 1

      No, most states have a way for parents to decline the vaccinations and put the kids in school anyhow. Sometimes it's as simple as saying they don't believe in vaccinating.

    23. Re:Heh by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      Jenny McCarthy isn't batshit insane, she's just a gullible bimbo. Please don't insult all the truly batshit insane people out there by linking them with her dumb ass.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    24. Re:Heh by SemperUbi · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not hyperbole. Pertussis has undergone a resurgence in the past several years, in part because some parents are not having their kids vaccinated for various worries (of which autism is only the most recent). Pertussis can kill kids.

    25. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You cannot, CANNOT say that the treatment helped. Was it the treatment? Was it new socks? Was it being treated differently due to his parents EXPECTING him to improve? Was it him getting more water? Was it him having a change in diet? Was it the position of mercury relative to venus?

      Chelation is dangerous. It's used by the vast majority of doctors as a last resort for heavy metal exposure, or for genetic diseases causing the accumulation of metals (Think Hemochromatosis or Sickle Cell patients that need frequent transfusions), and if those docs are any good it scares them JUUUUST a tiny bit every time they use it. This is because they can strip other ions and electrolytes, and if you're not paying attention you can get in trouble quick.

      Autism is in the genes, the set up at least. And a child that was autistic at 2 years, was autistic at 18 months, was autistic at 1 year, was autistic at 9 months, and probably earlier. I've worked with a number of autistic children, and I couldn't tell you how many "odd" parents I've met. Nice folks, often enough, but different. It varies from perseverating behavior and questions (Think OCD-like) to inappropriate affects (oddly cheerful, or oddly intense), to droning tones, to histories of "Not having friends" when growing up, there's a huge variety of "oddness."

      And I say this as an "odd" person myself. I had problems socializing growing up, I'd devolve into tears and anger when I didn't understand people, and while I slowly improved as I got older, I'm still "odd." Hell, it took me until I was halfway through my post-graduate training to realize *most* people didn't ACTUALLY want to know how I was really doing when they'd randomly meet me and say "Hi, how are you doing?"

      I'm terrified this is going to be more pronounced in my children. But I'm going to watch like a hawk, and get them the therapy they need to aid their behavior development, as/if they need it, instead of blaming vaccines, or "heavy metals" that aren't actually there.

    26. Re:Heh by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the whack-jobs are ruining for the few who actually do want a better education. Back in the '90s, there were a lot fewer homeschoolers and a lot more of them actually cared about education, so they got the rules changed, but now the loonies are taking advantage of the system and giving the rest a bad name.

    27. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course their idiots - they speak because their celebrity status affords them the ability to be heard by other idiots.

    28. Re:Heh by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Michael Crichton (who was kind of a flake himself, but did occasionally make a trenchant observation) once said that 90% of Hollywood was "2+2=5 stupid."

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    29. Re:Heh by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      And of course, none of those kids will be allowed to go to school (at least in my state, no one is allowed in without a certain set of vaccines... I guess homeschooling is an option, but the home school crowd usually does so because they want a better education than is being provided by the state / private schools and would likely be aware of the scam issues) and thus, won't impact the majority of people when they get sick... this is a tragedy because they will have less apparent value to society already (I am not saying they actually have less value but that society tends not to appreciate the value of the uneducated today).

      Its a good thing that a search for MMR vaccination certificate pdf turns up only 17,000 hits on google. Otherwise there might be parents out there tempted to just let the other kids get vaccinated but why take a chance on little Jimmy.

    30. Re:Heh by Zironic · · Score: 5, Informative

      What the heck are you talking about? Herd Immunity is the concept that as long as a significant amount of the 'herd' are immune to the disease, then the disease can't effectively spread which in practice helps the non-immune members of the herd as well.

      This means that even though you don't take your vaccine for whatever reason, you're still safe as long as everyone else does.

    31. Re:Heh by DrXym · · Score: 2
      Ultimate goal: profit.

      Of course it's profit. Medical treatments that go through extensive trials and can be proven to be efficacious and safe can make a lot of money. The key point being medicine must be proven to work. If it doesn't it gets dumped or discarded for one that does. It doesn't mean the system is perfect though or that pharmaceuticals are saints.

      As for vaccinations, researchers have tried time and time again to show a correlation between various conditions such as autism and vaccination and the results have been negative. There is no link. None. Vaccination is a proven cheap and affordable way of stopping people especially kids from succumbing to the most unpleasant and potentially fatal diseases. Vaccination is also why we don't have wards full of people on iron lungs any more, or crippled polio kids or a high infant mortality. They work. Not only do they work for the vaccinated person but they also work for those around them because it breaks a communicable link that could spread the disease. Hence "herd immunity" protects everyone not just the vaccinated.

      I feel very strongly that any who withholds vaccination from their kids is guilty of neglect. At a minimum they should be required to sign a waiver and they should be put on trial for neglect, assault or involuntary manslaughter if / when their kid or any other kid he / she comes into contact with contracts a preventable disease. Wakefield and the anti-vaxxers have blood of dead kids on their hands and it's time the law changed to reflect the harm they have caused.

    32. Re:Heh by Blue+Stone · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's worth watching episodes of Chris Morris's Brass Eye for very good examples of 'celebrities' who will say anything they're told to, or think they should say about subjects they know absolutely nothing about, as if they were leaders of society and authorities in their own right.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    33. Re:Heh by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How did Josh get Autism? I don't know. Did he have Autism? Don't know that either. Did he have heavy metal poisoning? If you look up the symptoms you'll see they are quite similar.

      As a parent of a kid who was diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder, I have to say that there is a huge problem right now with overdiagnosing Autism. I can't really say I blame the behavioral health people--it's just that a lot of different issues tend to present like Autism in little kids.

      At around age 1, my son was a mess. He had these routines that he'd do over and over and over again, and if you interrupted him, he'd scream for 2 hours. He couldn't talk, wouldn't make eye contact, didn't interact at all with anyone. He was developmentally delayed in every area that they measure. We brought him to a behavioral specialist who said that he was too young to know for sure, but that in a few years, we should plan on him being diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder. She said that there was definitely evidence to support that diagnosis at the time, but that she prefers not to label kids that young.

      My wife and I did a ton of research on Autism and anything else we could find. I was reading some stupid article on curing Autism by changing the kid's diet when it hit me: as an infant, my son was allergic to dairy. He was shitting blood, vomiting, etc., but he got over it at about age 6mos. Anyway, we called his pediatrician and asked if we'd be nuts to take him off of dairy, and he said that taking him off of dairy for a few months would actually be a great idea.

      So we took him off of dairy, and lo and behold, he was cured. He was a different kid. Engaging, charismatic. The routines disappeared. He started to develop. Obviously, he wasn't Autistic at all. He was just still allergic to dairy, and he was in excruciating pain, which inhibited his development.

      So I think there are a lot of "Autistic" kids out there who are suffering needlessly due to their actual condition remaining undiagnosed. I really wish doctors just send every developmentally-delayed kid to a behavioral specialist. An allergist should always be consulted, IMHO.

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    34. Re:Heh by TheNarrator · · Score: 1

      No, the worst problem is researching the causes of autism is now a stigmatized field. It would be good to figure out what causes it, whether it's genetic, a brain damaging pathogen, or some sort of new environmental toxin like BPA or even an old one like Dioxin. Now every time someone comes out with a study that probes the causes of autism, a huge avalanche of skeptics will come out comparing it to the earlier fraudulent vaccine finding and dismiss it before giving it a through review.

    35. Re:Heh by tophermeyer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To think it has some cause effect relationship with dead bits of virii or proteins is asinine.

      ...to people that are educated enough to understand what autism is and how vaccines work. There are a lot of people that have not had the benefit of such an education, and lack some critical tools for pursuing their own research.

      Not that we need to coddle people that are willfully ignorant, but I think that society has an obligation to provide all of its members with the information they need to make informed choices. When charismatic people willfully spread misinformation to push some personal agenda I think society has an obligation to push back.

      Also, it doesn't help that we keep using the word 'Autism' to describe what is likely a very large spectrum of different disorders with potentially different causes.

    36. Re:Heh by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they can make you kinda grumpy

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    37. Re:Heh by JoeMerchant · · Score: 0

      researchers have tried time and time again to show a correlation between various conditions such as autism and vaccination and the results have been negative. There is no link. None.

      Like I said about the polarized, prejudiced positions everyone has on the subject. It sounds to me like no amount of links or evidence I compile will change your mind. I did my research in 2003, just after my 2 year old stopped talking, and smiling. I dug deep in dozens of press stories, following up on the studies they referenced, reading those studies, and weighing the evidence for myself. At that time, the studies concluding that vaccines do no harm were based on relatively small sample sizes, dozens at best. They got tremendous press with dramatic headlines and emotionally charged stories about how this proves, once and for all, that we all need to vaccinate our children with every shot available, to do otherwise would be irresponsible and EVIL. There were also several studies published around that time that did find links - these studies tended to be based on long term data collected across thousands of children, things like the Danish health registry, and another across the state of California. They did show a significant link in their data, not smoking gun damning proof, but enough to raise a concern and look into it further. These tended to get quiet, balanced press coverage from just a few outlets.

      The more experience I get with issues like this, the more respect I get for our lawmakers, I used to have absolutely none. The laws surrounding issues like these tend to protect minorities against whiplash popular opinion, protecting society against itself for the ultimate good of everyone. The law provides an "out" for people who do not want to vaccinate their children. We can conjecture for a long time why that option is preserved and whether or not we'd all be better off if it weren't.

      Personally, I don't want to live in a world where the government sends you to a leper colony just because you haven't had your leprosy vaccine.

    38. Re:Heh by tophermeyer · · Score: 2

      My GF watches Oprah, and I've developed kind of a mixed opinion of her (Oprah).

      She clearly devotes a great deal of energy to spreading medical information. As an example, she's built up the wildly successful real-life character Dr. Oz, who is a very hunky and charismatic guy that gets on TV and gives people some generally very very good medical advice.

      A problem with Oprah's brand of medical and lifestyle advice is that she doesn't encourage independent investigation. She doesn't really encourage people to go out and do the research themselves. She hands out medical opinions but rarely empowers people with the tools to make their own medical decisions. Just like her book clubs, people fall in line with the Oprah diet and exercise guides (seriously, I've got one on my coffee table right now). Unfortunately, this is exactly what most of her viewers want.

      I wish that she would do more to encourage science and medical education, rather than simply telling women what she thinks about medicine.

    39. Re:Heh by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Translation: I build Medi-chairs so I've deluded myself into believing that makes me some sort of an "expert".

      You're a flake, pal, an ignorant flake. I wish more jurisdictions would ban the children of people like you from schools. I pity your kids, who would grow up being taught by the intellectual equivalent of a stale loaf of bread, but at least the rest of the kids would be protected from the effects your particular brand of stupidity.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    40. Re:Heh by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      He's personally responsible for causing outbreaks of diseases ...

      Wakefield, though dishonest, was only one man. He could not have caused the hysteria alone.

      The true culprit here is the sensationalist media. The consciously stoked up a baseless story to prey on people's fears, and did so with the direct intention of making a profit through increased advertising revenues. Children a dying and getting sick not because one man published one fraudulent study, but because many other men and companies abused their positions to make money.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    41. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you retarded? Herd immunity is when enough of a population is immune to the disease that individuals who aren't immune are still safe. And generally that immunity is understood to come through vaccination. I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

    42. Re:Heh by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Once you get past one childs death as a result of fraudulent for profit research and many many others who needlessly suffered, do numbers really count. Life imprisonment for one or hundreds, does it really make that much difference.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    43. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly birth rates tend to drop with educational levels. Remember these people are the ones who in school were the first to ask "Why do we have to learn this?" and tried to avoid any science class they could.

      That said don't make assumptions yourself such as

      To think it has some cause effect relationship with dead bits of virii or proteins is asinine.

      . Inflammitory responses found to be at the heart of many chronic ailments have been popping up in research. Not saying that is the case here but don't make the same mistake you are pointing out.

    44. Re:Heh by Kijori · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It takes a special type of arrogance to post a completely incorrect comment, while calling other commenters "idiots" for getting it right, when there's a link to a nice, simple explanation of the concept in the comment you're replying to.

    45. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wakefield's scam has actually caused the death of hundreds of kids and caused thousands of others to get sick with completely preventable illnesses." *Citation needed*

        BTW the outbreak in a UK boys school was among mostly already vaccinated kids. So much for the actual effectiveness of the vaccine.

    46. Re:Heh by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Interesting that "think of the children" is okay when we agree with the agenda.

    47. Re:Heh by Moryath · · Score: 5, Informative

      but I think that society has an obligation to provide all of its members with the information they need to make informed choices

      Jenny McCarthy has all the information she needs to make an informed choice. The problem is not a lack of information, the problem is that she's a brainless fuckwit.

    48. Re:Heh by wjousts · · Score: 1

      For a disease to spread amongst a population (a herd) it needs to be able to find another vulnerable host (or several hosts) to jump to before the current host either dies or recovers. If most of the population are immune (either inherently, through previous exposure, or through vaccination) then a disease can't spread. That is herd immunity. If person X is not immune to a disease and person Y has the disease, if X never meets Y and nobody who is vulnerable meets Y and then X (and therefore acts as a carrier between them) and there is no chain of vulnerable people between Y and X, then X is protected by herd immunity.

      I've no idea what you're babbling on about.

    49. Re:Heh by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      the fact that they don't even bother to prescribe medicines to you you actually know will help you from previous experience.

      Did you ask why? Maybe that medicine has proven to have previously unrealized and serious side affects. Maybe it's addictive in certain quantities and the doctor, knowing that you'd had it before, didn't want to keep giving to you. Maybe your symptoms were subtly different in a way that made him think something else was better. Maybe he just thought something else would work even better. Maybe the medicine addressed symptoms very well, but didn't address the underlying problem (hence the relapse). There's about a million maybe's. Doctors will talk to you and answer direct questions. If they won't, find a new doctor. They're like everyone else, some are good, some are bad, some are good but terrible with people, some are bad but very good with people (so they seem better to the outsider).

      Look at the TV show House. Yeah, it's fiction,yeah the format is bullshit, just look at he character. Think of the people you know in your own industry. If you're in the tech industry I'm sure you know a guy like House. We all know a guy like him. Brilliant, certified in everything, able to make every system in the place sit up and beg, but a complete nightmare to work with. His patients (users) hate him, though all their stuff always works; his colleagues grudgingly respect his results, but make every effort to avoid working with him.

      The Internet does not make you a doctor. At best it's a tool you can use to complement your doctor's work. How many times have you been called with a tech problem and a firm diagnosis from your "patient", only to realize immediately that this person had no idea what they were talking about? Do you think that happens a lot to doctors?

      I cringe every time I see my one friend's Facebook entries about her doctor visits. She clearly sees them as some sort of competition whereby she must "correct" every "misdiagnosis" she receives (essentially anything the doctor tells her). She had pregnancy hypertension. Her blood pressure was *extremely* high every time she went to the doctor. She was convinced that anything else was at fault other than her poor diet: blaming the equipment, the position they were measuring her pressure in, everything. She's self diagnosed herself with at least five extremely rare illnesses two of which would have killed her by now if she actually had them. She spends significant time every visit trying to convince her doctor she has one or another of them. Of course most of her problem are the result of being overweight, over 40 and having had two babies in the last three years; but hey, what do I know?

      I'm not saying your doctor is right and you are wrong. I'm not saying you shouldn't take an interest in your own health care, get second opinions, or research your symptoms. I am saying that realistically your doctor probably knows a lot more about this stuff than you do. He may not (won't) be right every time, but most likely if you lay the odds out he's a lot more likely to be right than you are. Talk to him. Find out why he did what he did. If he won't talk to you, or you discover that you just have completely different philosophies (and that can happen, quite often), find a new doctor. Unless your insurance is complete crap or you live in total BFE there's got to be other options.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    50. Re:Heh by skarphace · · Score: 1
      Do a tiny bit of research before spouting your mouth off, man. Here it is, straight from the NIH/CDC site:

      A concept of protecting a community against certain diseases by having a high percentage of the communitys population immunized. (Sometimes referred to as "herd" immunity). Even if a few members of the community are unable to be immunized, the entire community will be indirectly protected because the disease has little opportunity for an outbreak. However, with a low percentage of population immunity, the disease would have great opportunity for an outbreak.

      Citation

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
    51. Re:Heh by DrXym · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Like I said about the polarized, prejudiced positions everyone has on the subject. It sounds to me like no amount of links or evidence I compile will change your mind.

      No they won't because they have been discredited over and over. As for your own circumstances, as unfortunate as they may be, you confuse cause and effect.

      My kids are coeliac. One was diagnosed in hospital, the other retrospectively (due to other issues and the positive diagnosis on his sister). I could as easily blame their condition on vaccines as you could for yours. After all, their problems started around the time they had vaccines right? But I don't. Their condition was always there and was exposed during their development because they started eating solids containing gluten.

      The antivax movement has tried for a long time to claim that vaccines are harmful (autism being just one example of alleged harm) and has utterly failed to prove any link. That's even after Wakefield stirred up a hornet's nest that saw multiple attempts to reproduce his results. If there was evidence it would stand up to peer review and medical scrutiny. Anecdotes & personal testimonies don't count. Discredited studies don't count. The word of various quack doctors and institutes don't count.

      Blogs such as Respectful Insolence spend a great deal of time picking through anti-vax claims and methodically squashing them. You would do well to read some of them. It's not a case of some massive big pharma conspiracy. It's a case of good evidence based medicine versus quackery and anecdotes.

    52. Re:Heh by Moryath · · Score: 1

      without the challenge of exposure to normal kids and socialization of public schools

      After seeing firsthand in numerous schools the "lord of the flies" crap that goes on in most public schools, it's not entirely a "wack-job" reaction to not want to expose your kid to that.

      If public schools had actual disciplinary guidelines that were enforced to prevent bullying and allow teachers to remove disruptive kids from the classroom, that'd be one thing. But I know a teacher who was fired for "touching a student" when he broke up a fight (where one student was trying to stab another with a pen) and hauled the fight-starter down the hall to the principal's office, holding the kid by the arm because the kid was STILL trying to attack the other kid. The school district fired the teacher rather than defending him after the parents of said retard, who happen to be rather wealthy (doctor+lawyer combo who are never fucking home to raise their latchkey retard) threatened a lawsuit.

    53. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, let's all thank Jenny McCarthy with all of our hearts.

      thankyoujennymccarthy.com

      Love,
      The Measles

    54. Re:Heh by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      I don't have other options, that is the problem. The best doctors work for places my insurance won't cover. When I had better insurance I had an awesome, well educated doctor from Baylor. Unfortunately students are required to go to the university heath care center which has doctors who get paid 120,000 a year but they can be morons.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    55. Re:Heh by kmcarr · · Score: 2

      Of course their idiots...

      Who's idiots are you referring to?

    56. Re:Heh by lingon · · Score: 2

      I've also done this. I had a friend who very honestly believed that vaccinations causes autism so I searched my university's medical databases. I found the exact opposite of what you describe: the few studies that said a link wasn't improbable were either small, strangely executed, not done by medical professionals or linked to the anthroposophy movement. The large ones, such as the ones funded by WHO, found no link. At all. It even got to the point where the World Health Organization actually recommended that no further studies be done as it was just a waste of money.

      There are two other problems with your reasoning: The first is that by not vaccination your children, you are endangering your own children *and mine*. Some children can't be vaccinated and some children never develop immunity even though they have got the vaccine.

      The second is that, as so many others have pointed out, even if these studies shoving a link were true, you're not thinking rationally when choosing to not vaccinate your own kids. Even if the studies are true, you are putting your children to a greater risk by not vaccinating them since the diseases they prevent are deadly and/or give life-long handicaps.

      There is simply no reason at all to not vaccinate your kids. At all.

    57. Re:Heh by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Picard didn't say "Screw these loonies", he specifically forbade the one planet from being able to deliver their latest shipment of drugs to the other planet. By the time they could get another harvest of drugs over to that planet, they would have presumably broken the addiction.

    58. Re:Heh by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      And yet, you are also telling everyone that vaccines are worthless, and that people should avoid them. The more people that listen to you, the lower the vaccinated population gets, until it is too low to adequately protect the herd.

    59. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... On the other hand, there's every chance Scott Shoemaker's kid was chewing on shitty chinese-made Cadmium-laced or lead-laced toys. Or chewing lead paint from the house's walls.

      Blaming the vaccines is stupid.

      Yes, but they got the Low Price Always[TM]! And isn't that the only thing that really matters?

    60. Re:Heh by Pojut · · Score: 1

      He didn't forbid them, he just refused to give them the part they needed to repair their ship. More like denied them. /semantics

    61. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are also other cognitive disorders which may or may not even have a name. Just as many kids with milder forms of autism used to be diagnoses with ADHD or just as being weird, many kids now are probably diagnosed as autistic when they actually have some yet-unlabeled cognitive variations.

    62. Re:Heh by Nick+Ives · · Score: 2

      "Genetically, paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEolSjlcqng

      --
      Nick
    63. Re:Heh by Relayman · · Score: 1

      They don't grade fathers but, if they did, you would get an A+. Taking the time to do the research completely improved your son's life and yours as well. But watch for the autistic part to show up again, especially if you are on the autistic spectrum yourself (especially if you are high-functioning and don't realize that you are on the spectrum).

      --
      If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
    64. Re:Heh by nigelo · · Score: 1

      Some days I wake up grumpy, others I let her sleep in...

      --
      *Still* negative function...
    65. Re:Heh by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      And yet, you are also telling everyone that vaccines are worthless, and that people should avoid them.

      Who are you addressing here? Zironic has said no such thing in this thread.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    66. Re:Heh by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Well, when your definition of a 'whack-job' is someone who homeschools their child, then yes, ALL of them will be 'whack-jobs' in your view. When I was first looking into how to legally home school my child, I went to a talk being given by a small school supply store. After she went over the legalities, she started talking to me about the 'real reason' for public school. The red flags started going up in my head. The woman sounded like a loon. What made her sound crazy was that she was claiming that the point of public school wasn't about education (It's been shown that home schooling produces a better education), but instead that the public school was a large scale socialization project. People like you keep validating her crazy. And, there are a lot of you.

      Your use of "normal" to define public school kids can only be defined as "common". It is generally considered 'wierd' by people to have a well educated child who can interact with both his own age group, as well as those that are older and younger than themselves.

    67. Re:Heh by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      But watch for the autistic part to show up again, especially if you are on the autistic spectrum yourself (especially if you are high-functioning and don't realize that you are on the spectrum).

      It'll be interesting to see. My wife and I definitely wonder if the dairy allergy was his only issue, or if it's dairy+something else that's so mild we wouldn't have brought him in for it.

      Because of his delays, we went ahead and did behavioral therapy for him just in case. It was a low risk decision since he started when he was only 15 months old or so (i.e. low risk of a label causing him to believe he was "different" and then behaving that way). He probably would have done fine without it (and his therapist said as much after a year or so of treatment), but he still needed some catch-up. We're very glad we did it.

      At this point, we can still see some behaviors in him that hearken back to his "Autistic" self, but they are so subtle that you would never know if you weren't a pediatric behavioral specialist. Even then, a specialist probably wouldn't flag him in his current state. After all, you study ANY kid under a microscope and you'll find something atypical. We're not robots, after all.

      It is interesting that you bring up whether I'm on the spectrum, myself. I don't believe that I am, and probably will never find out, as it's difficult to diagnose mild ASD in adults. That being said, all of his triggers (situations/sensations/etc. that he was unable to cope with) are things that make me uncomfortable, as well.

      It's eerie just how similar we are in that regard, but I asked my parents if these things were debilitating to me at his age, and they were not. So, clearly we were different in our natural ability to manage the stress of the discomfort. Definitely made for some funny exchanges:

      Wife: I'm going to _________.
      Me: I don't recommend you __________. He's not going to like it.
      Wife: Don't be ridiculous. He's not going to care if I ___________.
      Son: [Insert 5-Alarm Tantrum here].

      Perhaps without behavioral therapy he wouldn't have learned to cope as well as he has? Perhaps we're still in for a surprise? I guess that's why parenting is never boring.

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    68. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said, "Who is idiots are you referring to?"

      You ought to have said, "To whose idiots are you referring?"

      *It's best to be sure your grammar is correct before you point out someone else's error.

    69. Re:Heh by jc42 · · Score: 2

      The worst problem is ... lies, misunderstandings and myths are documented that remain for very long, ...

      Of course, if you want some really good example of this phenomenon, all you have to do is look at any of our religions.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    70. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not hyperbole. Pertussis has undergone a resurgence [cdc.gov] in the past several years, in part because some parents are not having their kids vaccinated for various worries (of which autism is only the most recent). Pertussis can kill kids.

      And - because the vaccine doesn't last forever, and because those of us who got vaccinated blindly assumed that herd immunity still worked - often goes undiagnosed in adults for weeks.

      And in passing a hearty "FUCK YOU" to my antivax moonbat cow orker. I had that motherfucking cough for a fucking month because of you. Hope your kids die of it.

    71. Re:Heh by fl_litig8r · · Score: 1

      Prediction: someone will completely misread this post and start a blog about how dairy causes autism in 3. . . 2. . . 1

    72. Re:Heh by gt35r · · Score: 1

      Herd immunity sounds a lot like: Welfare, This means that even though you don't have a job for whatever reason, you're still safe as long as everyone else does.

    73. Re:Heh by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      In her defense, she's probably had her brains fucked out many, many times over the course of her lifetime!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    74. Re:Heh by thegameiam · · Score: 1

      Good catch, and for anyone playing along at home, gluten intolerance can manifest in much the same way. Gluten is present in barley, rye, wheat, oats, and spelt, and fortunately nowadays there are lots of products which are marketed "gluten free."

      --
      Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
    75. Re:Heh by Ganthor · · Score: 1

      I for one am FOR vaccination for life threatening diseases.

      I am totally amazed by the ability of people to discount all science and information that does not support their view.

      Eg, Anti-Vax people will not look at the long term results from Japan banning the MMR or will latch on to recent statement of this doctor saying his research is valid and it's all a big conspiracy. They will do their "research" only on the internet and will only accept information from sites that have a clear anti-vax point of view. My opinion is that anti-vax people do not do research at all... they "gather supporting information" only.

      Now I'm not saying that there is no harm in vaccinations. I believe there are cases where there is an adverse reaction. I do not know in my circle, anyone who has had an adverse reaction to any of the major vaccinations. (Flu vax an exception here). However back when my mum and dad were at school (many many years ago), they both knew people suffering from polio. Point is, the adverse reaction rate is orders of magnitude lower than the infection-mortality rate.

    76. Re:Heh by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      After seeing firsthand in numerous schools the "lord of the flies" crap that goes on in most public schools, it's not entirely a "wack-job" reaction to not want to expose your kid to that.

      Yes it is, because they'll end up with at least a vaguely similar situation in the real world in the end with a job, dealing with other people.

    77. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sweet words - you learn that attitude from Rush Limbaugh?

    78. Re:Heh by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      You don't think a guy who, because he works in a field only marginally involved in any aspect of vaccine or autism research trying to claim some sort of authority is anything but a flake?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    79. Re:Heh by lennier · · Score: 1

      celebrities should just shut up and do their job

      Isn't by definition a celebrity's job to not shut up?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    80. Re:Heh by plover · · Score: 1

      The parents are "underinformed" or "misinformed", not necessarily stupid. Sure, today we here know that the vaccine scare was bogus, but there are people who don't yet know that, and won't receive this update until it's too late.

      Do the children deserve their fates because a clever trickster deceived their parents, and the parents haven't yet received the news that they were tricked?

      It's not the kids who need to suffer and die. It's Wakefield who needs to be incarcerated for at least six counts of premeditated murder, and McCarthy who should be tried as his accomplice, and investigated for possible complicity in the fraud.

      --
      John
    81. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I don't want to live in a world where the government sends you to a leper colony just because you haven't had your leprosy vaccine.

      But don't act surprised or indignant if the government doesn't let you into the non-leper areas.

    82. Re:Heh by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Intriguingly, when you see the notes of batshit-crazy bimbo Jenny McCarthy's "treatment regimen" for her "autistic" son, one of the major things they did is switch him to a gluten-free diet .

      Of course, this nutjob also threw every new-agey piece of crap nonsense therapy anyone suggested at the kid, so who knows.

      But telling in her case is that first, the doctors were thinking epilepsy; then she got a "second opinion" from someone who has a financial interest in diagnosing as many kids with "autism" and "adhd" as possible.

      Not being a doctor, but following from basic first aid training, it's quite probable that McCarthy's unfortunate son (unfortunate in his condition as well as the misfortune to be born to that batshit insane nitwit) was actually suffering from allergy-related seizures that were - no surprise - cleared up when she switched him to a gluten-free, dairy-free diet. The rest of his "symptoms" are also consistent with other cases involving developmental delays due to undiagnosed food allergies.

      It's just sad that her boob-to-brain-mass ratio is so large that she's completely incapable of grasping this simple concept, and instead goes around convincing parents to kill their kids by not vaccinating.

    83. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No amount of "ethics courses" will prevent someone from doing something unethical. It's always a personal choice, and those choices are the result of the person's experiences and reactions to said experiences, etc. The unethical people will just cheat / lie on the ethics exams to pass them another etc.

    84. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can safely say that Autism is overdiagnosed right now. If you look at the diagnosis of autism from 1997 to 2008, there was over a 550% increase. An increase that large would take massive levels of a mutanogenic compound spread over the entire country. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is far more likely that autism has just become the catch-all disorder. Classically, children may have been diagnosed with ADHD or emotional problems.

    85. Re:Heh by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Empowerment, noun: Doing whatever Oprah tells you to.

    86. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, now everybody that listens to Beck is going to be against vaccines. Thanks-an-f-ing-lot.

    87. Re:Heh by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You cannot deny that the vocal crowd of anti-vaxxers is doing just this.

    88. Re:Heh by JoeMerchant · · Score: 0

      I won't bother recounting my set of anti-vax reasoning, the whole thing has been debated ad-nauseum and every point has three counter-points from the opposite side. I'm glad you did the research and reached your conclusions for yourself and your children. I had unlimited access to Pub-Med at the time, and I did drill down into the references and look at them too. The major flaw in my research is that I used the current press as my starting point, so my sampling was skewed by basing on whatever was stirring up the press during that 3-4 month window when I did my research. I recognize this, but I was also more interested in the new findings at the time (2003).

      My feeling on vaccines is this: Polio vaccine is great, an amazing triumph of modern medicine, much better than drinking sewage to get the same effect. Whooping cough and some of the other major killers of the past, also a very very good idea. Today we're over doing it, period. By how much is hard to say, but I definitely feel we have passed the point of doing more harm than good. Too many new vaccines, too many kids with fevers spiking to 105 following the shot, too obviously pushed by the pharma money machine, and if you think that last statement makes me a conspiracy kook, take a look into what happened with HPV vaccine rollout and the Texas Governor and schools right at that time when I was forming my opinions. The WHO studies looked at populations as a whole, I am only raising two boys.

      The whole thimerosal debate was raging at the time too, and whether or not mercury in vaccines ever did any harm to anybody or not, it has no more reason to be there today than it does in fillings in your mouth, or lead does in paint and gasoline.

      We put the brakes on the vaccine schedule after our children started presenting serious ASD symptoms. That puts us in a more or less 1% of the population category, not enough to harm herd immunity even if the whole group opts out. I know anecdotes prove nothing, but our younger son, who stopped his vaccine schedule at age 2.5 instead of 4, has much less severe difficulties, still needs a 1 on 1 aide in first grade, but at least he can function in a mainstream classroom.

      The study I have never seen is the one that looks specifically at families with a history of ASD and compares vax/no-vax in that population. Those are the results I was trying to infer from the studies I read, and the the results were inconclusive.

      Our kids are vaccinated against all the major killers, and they will continue to get tetanus updates into the future, but they damn sure don't need to be in the first wave of boys to receive HPV vaccine. The schools are notified and they will stay home if there's any outbreak of something they're not vaccinated for. With the awareness, monitoring, and care-giving ability of present-day medicine in the United States, I don't feel that they are a significant health threat to others, or at significant risk of significant harm from anything the vaccines might protect against, and the law does still protect our right to opt out.

      I wouldn't want to live like the Amish, but I respect their right to choose that lifestyle.

    89. Re:Heh by JoeMerchant · · Score: 0

      I experienced this personally with "anti dandruff" shampoo in the 1980s - as long as you used it, you needed it, stop for a week and you get horrible dandruff. Stop for two months and the microbe colony in your scalp rebalances and dandruff settles down to about the same as when you were using the shampoo.

      The same thing happens with antiseptic mouthwash, use it twice daily and you'll need to use it twice daily, because the first bacteria to recolonize your mouth are nasty. Not saying vaccines are like this, but so much of what gets pushed at us is.

    90. Re:Heh by GCPSoft · · Score: 1

      The ST:TNG episode was "Symbiosis"

    91. Re:Heh by jwdb · · Score: 1

      True. However, it's not the anti-vaxxers who are promoting herd immunity as a reason not to vaccinate, but rather the vaxxers who are lamenting its disappearance due to the actions of anti-vaxxers. You're arguing with the people who side with you.

    92. Re:Heh by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      You cannot deny that the vocal crowd of anti-vaxxers is doing just this.

      Er, yes, but that wasn't the point I was making. It was whether you were implying that Zironic agreed with the anti-vaxxers (when there was no evidence he did).

      I read his comment as a plain *explanation* of herd immunity. *Not* as an endorsement of parents who don't vaccinate their kids and selfishly rely on herd immunity to protect them.

      Your comment

      And yet, you are also telling everyone that vaccines are worthless

      sounds like an attack on him for this reason. But there's no evidence he was suggesting that!

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    93. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Further, the "debate" over this has increased distrust of doctors, which isn't helpful.

      Because doctors inherently deserve our trust?

  3. Hanging is too good for him by BubbaDave · · Score: 2

    And he will probably suffer no repercussions.

    Dave

    1. Re:Hanging is too good for him by Stormthirst · · Score: 2

      And he will probably suffer no repercussions.

      Aside from being struck off you mean? He was a practising medical doctor and surgeon - which he will never be allowed to do again. After all the controversy I doubt he'd even be able to consult in any form of medical field. Wikipedia:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

      Being the land of law the UK is, it wouldn't surprise me if he got jail time.

    2. Re:Hanging is too good for him by BubbaDave · · Score: 1

      For the fraudulent activities that were already exposed or for doing it for profit?

      It was this new bit of info to which I was referring.

      Dave

    3. Re:Hanging is too good for him by golfbum · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wakefield is happily minting money in TX where he "manages" an alternative therapy clinic. He claims he isn't practicing medicine at all just "managing." He definitely should be back in the UK standing before a judge. gb

    4. Re:Hanging is too good for him by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      He should have his visa (or green card) revoked. If there is any clearer cause for someone to be declared persona non grata I don't know what it would be.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    5. Re:Hanging is too good for him by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminds me of the last scene of the "White Supremacy" storyline in the Wiseguy TV show....

    6. Re:Hanging is too good for him by moortak · · Score: 2

      He'll be able to "consult" with the antivaaccine crowd and probably maintain a nice standard of living.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    7. Re:Hanging is too good for him by SquirrelDeth · · Score: 1

      Burning is too good for him
      He should be chopped up in little pieces and buried alive.

      Part of a mob and no brain. Made a pig squeal lately bubba? Dave is a euphemism for stupid.

  4. Autism VAX? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now, I know RISC is cool these days and the VAX was pretty much the embodiment of CISC, but calling it autistic is a bit uncalled for.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Autism VAX? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, while the VAX wasn't autistic, it certainly its users weren't playing with a full DEC, either.

    2. Re:Autism VAX? by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      I had the same thought. Why are these damned kids so lazy these days? Or is it stupidity? Is it that they're too lazy to spell out "vaccine", or too stupid to know how to spell it?

      You are entirely correct, a VAX is an old computer. A Vaccine is the shot you get to immunise yourself from a disease.

      2 mch txtng?

      BTW, can you get these damned kids off our lawns?

    3. Re:Autism VAX? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      While I'd like to blame kids today, it's actually a Slashdot problem. The title is three characters short of the character limit for Slashdot headlines. That said, a few more-comperhensible permutations would have fit, such as 'Autism-Vaccine Scandal was Pharma Business Scam'.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Autism VAX? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, sir, should kindly leave the stage. The next stage out of town preferably, yessiree.

    5. Re:Autism VAX? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Says the contraction-using layabout. In my day, we had to earn each letter by bringing in a badger pelt, and we would never resort to removing letters or just smashing words together with an apostrophe just to save ourselves a few extra badger-claw wounds. They built character! Then your generation was all "they're" and "it's" and "wouldn't've" and so forth. Lazybones!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:Autism VAX? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I thought a VAX was a vacuum cleaner. Although there is no truth to the rumor that their marketing slogan was, "Nothing sucks like a VAX!"

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    7. Re:Autism VAX? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that would've worked better. I had the notion that I could lure in some of the antivaccine mob, by writing a title that could be interpreted as saying that Wakefield's being persecuted by big pharma, or some other such nonsense. I figured the surprise might help some of them absorb the idea that Wakefield, and not mainstream medicine, is the party peddling dangerous treatments to make money on the pharmaceutical business. I think simple clarity would've sufficed.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  5. Re:Doesn't Jenny McCarthy look stupid now by scubamage · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...I don't think that's egg.

  6. This is a Big Deal by microTodd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Being a new parent right around the height of the Autism/Vaccination scare, this is a Big Deal. This was huge! We had lots of talking heads on TV telling people not to vaccinate their kids. Famously, Jenny McCarthy went on Oprah and told parents not to vaccinate their kids. Many doctors and parents LISTENED! If you read the articles, you'll see that as a result children died of easily preventable childhood diseases because parents were too scared to get the proper vaccinations.

    I am frankly amazed that this turned out to be a scam and not just sloppy science research. I just cannot fathom the depths of this man's conscience.

    The sad part is, the repercussions will continue to last for years and years. Even after this has all been revealed as malicious, willful fraud, I bet dollars to doughnuts that many parents will still believe it, and won't get their kids vaccinations, putting them at risk.

    I'm normally a laid back guy but this one just makes me fired up.

    --
    "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    1. Re:This is a Big Deal by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      "I just cannot fathom the depths of this man's conscience"

      if (MakesProfit == true)
      {
      Scam scam = new Scam("AutismVax");
      scam.Start();
      }

    2. Re:This is a Big Deal by Bemopolis · · Score: 5, Funny

      If there were a God of Justice, Wakefield would be felled by polio and end up in an iron lung.

      And if there were a God of Irony, a study would be published that conclusively demonstrated that autism is caused by breast implants.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    3. Re:This is a Big Deal by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Best part was McCarthy's son was misdiagnosed. ... of course that just means he "was healed through a range of experimental and unproved biomedical treatments."

    4. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Famously, Jenny McCarthy went on Oprah and told parents not to vaccinate their kids. Many doctors and parents LISTENED!

      On the upside, this could (over time) increase "herd immunity" (via adverse selection) to the garbage that falls out of Oprah's cunt-mouth, so that's a bonus.

    5. Re:This is a Big Deal by glueball · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The fascinating part to me is people *knew* there was a link. It was in the literature. People with PhD's and MD's were trotted out saying to the masses "You don't have my education, my experience. This Autism link is real. Big Pharma is poisoning you"

      I see a lot of similarities to Global warming ^C^C^C^C Climate Change arguments.

    6. Re:This is a Big Deal by NorbrookC · · Score: 2

      What bothers me about it was that no one at Lancet, not the editors or the peer-reviewers, bothered to question the data and the assumptions to begin with. I'm also curious to know just what role the other co-authors had in this paper. Were they just "courtesy additions," or were they complicit in this research? Having written a few research articles, I can only think of one that went through without a request for revisions, or additional data. Most of the time, we were put through the wringer.

    7. Re:This is a Big Deal by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It should make you fired up, but in a different way.

      Look at what you said: Jenny McCarthy went on Oprah and told parents not to vaccinate their kids.
      So...Jenny McCarthy (famous for her diagnostic research?) went on Oprah (famous for its rigorous, investigative journalism?) and told people not to get a procedure that had been not just recommended but nearly mandatory for what, 40 years?
      And on THAT basis, they didn't?

      Sorry, but dude, if people are THAT gullible and witless that they trust their child's LIFE to the pronouncements of Jenny McCarthy and Oprah....well, they probably were going to have trouble making it across the street alive too.

      I'm sorry to sound so cynical, but at what point are people required to perform a little due diligence on their own lives? I mean, sure, we're not all epidemiologists or vaccine researchers, we can't all parse the raw data for results. But there are experts you CAN turn to (your family doctor, for one) for advice, and I don't know many of them basing their counsel on Oprah. And if you as a self-aware actor make the choice to disregard experts, that IS your choice. And the results - good or bad - are your fault. Sometimes, I'm sure, you'll be right. That would make your choice evolutionarily right, congrats.

      Usually, however, I'd guess that you'd be wrong.

      Looking at it objectively, one could say it was a 2nd-order Darwin effect. It's a bitch when it happens to be you though.

      --
      -Styopa
    8. Re:This is a Big Deal by Myopic · · Score: 2

      Of COURSE these people won't change their minds! To do that they would have to be capable of experiencing cognitive dissonance. Want to read some lunacy? Just check out what Jenny says on her stupid website this week:

      Recent Dr. Andrew Wakefield Media Circus: Much Ado About Nothing

      The mainstream media is in a frenzy over a new "study" claiming that Andrew Wakefield's 1998 Lancet paper was fraudulent. For years, the media has mischaracterized Wakefield's work as implicating the MMR vaccine in the autism epidemic. This was never true, as Wakefield himself wrote in the conclusion to his paper:

      "We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described."

      We hope the media will take the time to read the actual Lancet study, rather than repeating the message of a vaccine-industry funded media circus.

      Talk about missing the point! Hey lady, the person who convinced you of a certain thing was a fraud and a charlatan. He pushed phony bullshit on you and you bought it. It's all crap; none of it is true. The last nail in the coffin came years and years ago; this is merely the last scoop of earth on top of the grave-site. Give it up, be an adult, understand that you were horribly wrong and use your celebrity to try to undo some of the enormous harm you did to the world's children. For God's sake don't dig in your high heels and move the goalpost!

    9. Re:This is a Big Deal by golfbum · · Score: 1

      The negative impact on herd immunity cannot be overlooked... gb

    10. Re:This is a Big Deal by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      There are an infinite number of values between 0 and 1. But 2 isn't one of them.

      Its worse than that! There are an uncountably infinite number of values between 0 and 1!

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    11. Re:This is a Big Deal by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      If there were a God of Justice, Wakefield would be felled by polio and end up in an iron lung.....

      which through repeated friction from its rubber seal undulations would cause a bad case of necrotizing fasciitis.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    12. Re:This is a Big Deal by Burdell · · Score: 3, Funny

      Its worse than that! There are an uncountably infinite number of values between 0 and 1!

      Only if you are irrational.

    13. Re:This is a Big Deal by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      Big Pharma probably is poisoning us on some level already (at least indirectly through the various drugs that pass through current water treatment tech). Thankfully, it is better to have the "cure" than to attempt without it (or at least, so it would appear given that the life expectancy in Western countries (even in the low life expectancy ones like the US) is more than double what it is in places like Nepal and South Africa (or it was last I checked).

    14. Re:This is a Big Deal by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      That comment was simply transcendental.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    15. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am frankly amazed that this turned out to be a scam and not just sloppy science research.

      Well it's not like vaccines are 100% safe. A friend of mine has a sister that contracted the disease she was being vaccinated against. I don't know which one. It's not something we've talked about a lot. I've never met her but I know she got hit hard - limited vocabulary - can't walk unsupported. No mysterious hidden chemicals, but vaccines are still a risk.

      Also, it's not like we can say vaccines will never cause autism. There's plenty of research that points to autism being caused by poison induced brain damage and there are plenty of poisons in vaccines. There are plenty of poisons in food and air and water and everywhere else, but the issue still stands; it's possible.

      Now, obviously there is no evidence that withholding from the major vaccinations is safer, but rather the contrary.

      *sigh* I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say here. I don't support the anti-vax people, but I find the hate filled ignorant reactionaryism on this page disturbing and as dangerous as it's opposite in the long run.

    16. Re:This is a Big Deal by microTodd · · Score: 2

      You know, I was going to post more follow up messages about Dr. Wakefield's apparent lack of ethics, but two other posts in this article gave me pause.

      From A nonymous Coward

      from suv4x4

      These were both good comments, and made me realize that I was letting my emotion overtake my good judgement. Do I believe that Dr. Wakefield was some evil charlatan laughing in a study while drinking whiskey and petting a white cat? No, I don't. Its more likely that years of research and the lure of money clouded his judgement, or that he was too close to the source for objective thought.

      But it is concerning to me that somehow, this series of events combined with others, has resulted in such a shades-of-grey issue. The simple question: should I vaccinate my kids? is now complicated.

      I'm glad I'm not a doctor. Parents would just want me to say "yes or no" and I would not really be able to do it. I'd want to explain all the nuances going on here.

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    17. Re:This is a Big Deal by Kohath · · Score: 1

      You don't really have much of a point here. Wakefield had all the credentials that Oprah and Jenny McCarthy lack. His input was no more reliable.

      Appeals to authority on any particular question are only useful to the extent that the authorities have integrity and (for lack of a better word) honor. Does the scientific community routinely highlight the need for these virtues? Do they celebrate them? Who won the Nobel prize for integrity this year?

    18. Re:This is a Big Deal by mibe · · Score: 1

      I have trouble seeing how this is any different from child abuse. But, let's say that parents are completely within their rights to withhold from their children one of the greatest medical achievements of the past century (and, legally, they are). What about someone else who has a kid who can't get the vaccine for one of a variety of reasons? They're dependent on everyone else immunizing their kids to stop the spread of disease. Here, have a car analogy: It's one thing to say that it's alright for people to drive with their eyes closed if it's only going to hurt them, but we know that there is a significant chance that they'll also hurt someone else. In this context, widespread refusal to vaccinate has significant repercussions for everyone else not just the parents who refuse to vaccinate.

    19. Re:This is a Big Deal by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As much as you would think this would be the last word on the issue, this is not the end. Just after this news came out a friend of mine was was posting on Facebook that just because Wwakefield is discredited it doesn't mean that vaccinations are safe. -- he then put up a bunch of links to studies alleging things about Thimerosal etc and asked rhetorically "why don't you think you've ever heard of these studies?". The belief in the conspiracy has become self-confirming, and these people have since started websites, support groups, and they have elaborate FAQa and monographs to explain the "problem" to a new generation of parents.

      My friend has four children, all with some form of autism -- even the girls. Many of the "leaders"of this movement are desperate, angry people who have suffered much at the hands of a little understood mental disease, and grasp at any shred of evidence to link autism to something in the environment, something the can control. I don't think well hear the last of anti-vaccination until autism's cured or becomes genetically screenable.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    20. Re:This is a Big Deal by slimjim8094 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd completely agree with you, but these idiots aren't hurting themselves. They're hurting their (very young, infant) children. The kids aren't the ones saying "but I heard oprah", it's the parents.

      It's the same thing as the homeopathy nonsense. My mother has a friend whose kid had Lyme disease, but she thought the treatment was too harsh and turned to homeopathic treatment (saline and sugar pills). He got better! He only a few neurologic defecits that held him back a year in school and changed his personality. So, heretic me looks up what the symptoms of not treating Lyme disease... and sees something familiar. The poor kid suffered for years and is damaged for life because his mom is a dumb bitch - is that "her" problem, or his?

      I would fully support those people getting prosecuted for child abuse. People are allowed to be as stupid about their own health as they want, but not about their kids. Otherwise, they should be removed and placed in the care of people who will treat them properly - same as we do with other neglect.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    21. Re:This is a Big Deal by SemperUbi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'd really like to know the story behind that article. Lancet should do a root cause analysis of that paper's review process.

    22. Re:This is a Big Deal by SemperUbi · · Score: 1

      Just how much is Wakefield paying her anyway?

    23. Re:This is a Big Deal by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      indeed, what Wakefield wrought can't entirely be reined back in even after he's exposed, as is the case with many troublemakers of all stripes. This could happen even if the instigator had publicly repented.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    24. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, it may sound callous, but this is evolution in action.

      If your genes mean that you are too dumb to vaccinate your offspring, then its better for the gene pool and humanity itself if you and your offspring die. As soon as possible, and without any survivors to perpetuate that particular brand of idiocy.

    25. Re:This is a Big Deal by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      It's a bigger bitch when your kid get gets the vaccinations but, for whatever reason, they weren't sufficient to provide immunity. Then the lack of herd immunity - because 20% of your school classmates' parents refused to vaccinate them - gets your kid sick.

      We have too many laws, but there needs to be a law to make those 20%'s parents responsible for sickening or killing an innocent kid.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    26. Re:This is a Big Deal by ultranova · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but dude, if people are THAT gullible and witless that they trust their child's LIFE to the pronouncements of Jenny McCarthy and Oprah....well, they probably were going to have trouble making it across the street alive too.

      And that would be all fine and good if they were the ones who paid the price. But they aren't. It's their kids who'll be/have been hit by this. It's not their lives they are screwing over by being stupid; no, they are harming people who are just as entitled to the protection of law as anyone else is. That is the problem.

      Then again, there's not much that can be done about this. You could make vaccinations mandatory, but that would set a really nasty precedent. You could declare parents who refuse to take vaccinations for their kids incompetent, but that would set an even nastier one. You could increase education, especially of important subjects such as human biology, but you can't force people to learn or think.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    27. Re:This is a Big Deal by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      But there are experts you CAN turn to (your family doctor, for one) for advice...

      Many of the people who listened to Jenny and Oprah were also the type who distrust medical science in the first place and see naturopaths and homeopaths rather than relying on a real "family doctor".

      And the problem is that these idiots didn't simply keep their children unvaccinated. They also went to state legislatures, teaming up with fringe religionists to pass legislation that made it ridiculously simple to get an exemption for required immunization before little River, Moonbeam, and Pondscum went off to school. And, they continued to publicize their idiocy far and wide and they still do, even though the link between vaccination and any childhood malady (other than potential allergic reaction and minor side-effects) has proven non-existent. And, they were backed by their naturopathic and homeopathic "doctors".

      A lovely conflation, all brought about because some jackass decided he wanted to make money. Thanks, capitalism! And, before you say "It's greed, not my precious capitalism", ask whether or not this idiocy would have spread so far and so virulently had so many people not had the opportunity to grow their personal fortunes on the back of this fraud and the increased desire due to capitalism's sway. If you take the good of capitalism, you have to take the bad, too.

      --
      That is all.
    28. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's not possible for a person to know enough about all facets of modern civilization to make all their decisions based on their own understanding of the issues. This is why we have specialists like doctors, lawyers, and IT professionals.

      The problem is not one of people "not doing their own due dilligance" but rather one of people listening to laypersons as if they were specialists.

      This is only a problem because popular media prefers to give air time to attractive people who are saying easily understood things (like "vaccines bad, no get vaccine for child"). Actual specialists on the other hand tend to be a mixed bag for attractiveness and will tend to no distill the complex issues in their field (which they understand perfectly) into short easily digested statements (because doing so would render their statements at best situationally accurate). So you get a large number of celebrities saying "Vaccines cause autism!" and one lone scientist trying to rebut with "There are a lot of different vaccines and the side effects can vary I don't know of any studies which conclusively show autism as a side effect of a vaccine in circulation". And the audience reconciles the two as: "Vaccines cause a lot of side effects including autism!".

    29. Re:This is a Big Deal by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      I am frankly amazed that this turned out to be a scam and not just sloppy science research. I just cannot fathom the depths of this man's conscience.

      You're talking about the same guy who invited kids to his son's birthday party, and then paid them to take their blood samples. I don't think the words "conscience" and "Andrew Wakefield" belong anywhere near each other.

    30. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look elsewhere in this thread, others have talked about exactly the problem your friend had, unless I'm misunderstanding you. The measles vaccine only has about 90% effectiveness. So 10% of the people who get it can still catch measles. Combine that with lots of kids not being vaccinated, and measles doesn't die out and it keeps going around and around and around.

      The thing is, vaccines aren't completely safe. No medical procedure is. No action, or inaction, for that matter is safe. You take a risk of death or horrible dismemberment walking outside your front door. You take a risk of death or horrible dismemberment staying home (after all, the police may trace the call to _inside_ the house). I've argued with people over seatbelts who are convinced that seatbelts are a menace because people who wear them can become trapped in a wreck by them. I concede that, in some cases, seatbelts can indeed kill you (although in most cases where they do kill you, the wreck has to be so severe for that to happen that you'd have been smeared all over the inside of the car without the seatbelt), but that it's far, far more likely that the seatbelt will save your life than that it will kill you. People just don't want to do the math. It's interesting actually. With seatbelts, idiots seem to want to retain the illusion of control. They want to be responsible for their own safety, not be at the mercy of a safety device. On the other hand, with vaccines, it seems that the idiots want to bend the other way and avoid responsibility: if they don't vaccinate their children, then they can't be blamed for any vaccine side-effects and, in the event that their child suffers horribly as a result of that decision, they can just rationalize it as fate or the will of some diety, etc. It can be a hard thing, certainly, to knowingly gamble with your childs life and/or health, even when the odds are so much in their favor if you choose vaccination (historically anyway; just look at infant mortality in the 18th and 19th centuries and bear in mind that a big chunk of the difference from then to now is thanks to vaccines). The problem is, most people aren't objective about these things at all. After all, taking the kids for a drive in the car is a gamble with their lives. Perhaps an even better example is feeding children. They can choke to death on the food, or the food might be contaminated. So, just by feeding your children you're gambling their lives the alternative... well that's not even a gamble, we pretty much know what will happen. Similarly, we have a pretty darn good idea what will happen if we stop vaccinating children and it's not pretty.

    31. Re:This is a Big Deal by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Most researchers are fairly well versed on ethics. Fraudsters do not dominate the research community.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    32. Re:This is a Big Deal by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Some small proportion of the populace are allergic to opiates. Do you think the use of morphine, Demerol and other opiate pain killers should be banned?

      No procedure is without some risk. The risk of vaccines to a very small fraction of the populace is known. As with all medical procedures, the risk is weighed against the benefits, and in the case of vaccines, the benefits to the general public welfare so outweighs the potential risks to an exceedingly small group that there is no question as whether there should be wide-scale vaccination programs.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    33. Re:This is a Big Deal by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      You're letting him off easy. He was setting up a series of companies to profit from his fake study. He's a charlatan, pure and simple. There's no clouding of the issue going on. Remove the fraudulent Lancet study, and you remove the only meaningful claim that autism can be linked to MMR.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    34. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC, the head of Lancet resigned after much of this came to light. She said that the paper clearly shouldn't have been published and that it was a failing of the paper that it had been.

    35. Re:This is a Big Deal by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      And if there were a God of Irony, a study would be published that conclusively demonstrated that autism is caused by breast implants.

      I don't know about autism, but I can think of at least one case where they seemed to cause stupidity. *

      (If that dumbass can use logical fallacies, then so can I, dang it.)

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    36. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      She didn't just catch whatever it was. She caught it FROM the vaccine. I think her actual disabilities were caused by something like brain swelling. I know it was only a matter of days from injection to being over...or just beginning.

      I completely agree; this world is dangerous and we need to keep level heads and choose the safest path. The part I think the informed communities need the most work on is openly admitting that even some of the best paths are dangerous.

      The media are especially fond of telling people "this is safe". That may herd a few more into the better corral now, but it creates idiots who are willing to follow another sooner or later.

    37. Re:This is a Big Deal by Nicros · · Score: 1

      I think it is absolutely criminal what these idiot parents did by not vaccinating their children. And to say that they were gullible is too nice- they were too fucking lazy to spend a few minutes searching on the internet to see if there was any factual basis to what Jenny and Oprah were spouting.

      With access to the internet and the wealth of knowledge there, how friggin hard is it to look at as much information as you can and make the best informed decision that you can? And keep in mind these parents weren't in a 3rd world country they were in uppity places like Marin County.

      To be really, really cynical though, isn't this kind of Darwinism? The stupid parents weren't able to make a good enough decision to keep their children alive, so that genetic line will end. And since I'm already going to hell for that statement, I might as well propose that those stupid parents would probably have raised more stupid people.

    38. Re:This is a Big Deal by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Fraudsters do not dominate the research community.

      It doesn't take fraud to come up with an incorrect answer. Appeals to authority can often result in acceptance of incorrect answers whether there's fraud or not.

    39. Re:This is a Big Deal by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      I don't know about autism, but I can think of at least one case where they seemed to cause stupidity. *

      Actually, there have been studies that definitively show that there IS a connection between breast size and intelligence.

      The larger the breasts of a woman are, the dumber the guys around her will act.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    40. Re:This is a Big Deal by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I agree, but this doesn't seem to apply in the Wakefield case. He appears to have been a fraudster from beginning to end, not simply just self-deluded.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    41. Re:This is a Big Deal by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      I'd completely agree with you, but these idiots aren't hurting themselves. They're hurting their (very young, infant) children.

      Think of it as evolution in action. Stupid parents have stupid children, so this is just a thinning of the herd.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    42. Re:This is a Big Deal by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's actually worse than them hurting their own kids. They are potentially hurting other people's kids who can't get the vaccine because they are too young, have immune system problems, allergies, etc. If you can't get the vaccine, you usually rely on herd immunity to protect you. But thanks to Jenny McCarthy, Andrew Wakefield and the like herd immunity is breaking down in places. Parents who would vaccinate their children are having their babies die before they reach vaccination age.

      Example: Dana McCaffery, a 4 week old baby, died of Whooping Cough in 2009. She was too young for the vaccine. Herd immunity should have protected her but anti-vaccination groups lobbied for parents to stop vaccinating and suddenly whooping cough rates rose. The head of one of these groups (the Australian Vaccination Network), Meryl Dorey, said "You didn't die from it (whooping cough) 30 years ago and you're not going to die from it today." This was *IN RESPONSE TO* Dana's death. Not just in response to it, but with Dana's parents in the room! She had the gall to question the diagnosis having never seen any of the medical information, merely because it went against what she believed to be true about Whooping Cough and vaccines. Luckily, Australia has taken action against the AVN, but this won't bring back Dana or any of the other babies who die of Whooping Cough, measles or any of the other diseases that shouldn't be making comebacks because we have perfectly good vaccines for them.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    43. Re:This is a Big Deal by wikdwarlock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To your last point, while this sounds fine in theory, the application could be ghastly. Who decides that a parent is being "stupid" about their child's health? Surely not you. Perhaps a board of certified medical professionals? Are the board members (exaggerated for effect, not my personal views) crazy liberals from California, ignorant rednecks from the south, white supremacists, recently naturalized citizens with fake medical degrees from India? If not them, then the government, right? Local, state, or federal? Which lobbying interest do you want to dictate the "stupidity" of YOUR treatment of YOUR kid's health?

      What happens if the FCC's ban on Janet Jackson's nipple on broadcast television is conflated to be a psychological health risk, but you want to teach your child about the correct anatomical names of human's bodies? Or your babysitter reports your wife because your 3 year old son says he took a shower with Mommy? Or, if someone says 3D television can cause eye damage in children and you let your 5 year old watch Monsters vs Aliens on the new 3D tv you got for Christmas? Or that homemade fried chicken you brought to the company picnic is too fattening and 20 people can testify that you let your child eat it, willfully ignoring the Childhood Obesity Epidemic (TM) we've all heard about on 10 different talk shows?

      And all of this is completely based in my own attitudes toward health care. Other concerns from religious points of view are another set of problems. Maybe giving up chocolate for Lent traumatizes your child psychologically. Maybe the beef lobby convinces folks that Hindus are depleting their children's iron levels by not letting them eat cow meat. Etc...

      The bottom line is that people should (in my opinion) be allowed to be as stupid with their health, and with their children's health, as they want to be. It's a simple stance, but very complicated to work out in the real world, I know. And I DO believe that Child Protective Services should be able to remove children from situations of grossly negligent parenting, things like no access to clean food or water, inadequate shelter, abusive environment, etc, but even in those, the creeping grey areas can, and are, abused or misused in ways that reasonable, caring people don't intend.

      --

      "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    44. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely this, and it's complete cowardice on the parents' part - they'd prefer the risk that their child gets the disease to taking responsibility for the risk that the vaccine hurts them.

      What really, really upsets me is that these parents were probably vaccinated as children, so they've benefited, but don't have the guts to pass that benefit onto their offspring.

      My little guy is fully vaccinated, but only 6 months old, so there's still some to go, and what really worries me is the thought that because of these idiots it's easier for him to catch something nasty before he's had a chance to be protected.

    45. Re:This is a Big Deal by spiffmastercow · · Score: 2

      I think it is absolutely criminal what these idiot parents did by not vaccinating their children. And to say that they were gullible is too nice- they were too fucking lazy to spend a few minutes searching on the internet to see if there was any factual basis to what Jenny and Oprah were spouting. With access to the internet and the wealth of knowledge there, how friggin hard is it to look at as much information as you can and make the best informed decision that you can? And keep in mind these parents weren't in a 3rd world country they were in uppity places like Marin County.

      Actually the internet just exacerbates the problem. Google new articles for "vaccine autism" and set the time period to more than 3 months old, and I'll bet the first 12 pages or so are all "studies" validating the "link" between autism and vaccines, and consequently trying to sell you something.

    46. Re:This is a Big Deal by MoriT · · Score: 2

      For people like me, who's parents were caught up in it, it is possible to get vaccinations later and help undo the harm that's been done, as well as protect yourself against these diseases. Get your vaccination records and talk to your doctor.

    47. Re:This is a Big Deal by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      And that would be all fine and good if they were the ones who paid the price. But they aren't. It's their kids who'll be/have been hit by this

      Actually, that would still be fine. The problem is it's other people's kids who are paying the price.

      The majority of kids who have died from the anti-vax movement were too young to receive the relevant vaccines. They used to rely on herd immunity, but the anti-vaxers wrecked that.

    48. Re:This is a Big Deal by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2

      This may sound callous to your friend, who no doubt doesn't think of himself as some sort of Typhoid Mary, but there is a common factor here well outside of vaccinations. Autism has been pretty strongly linked to lots of factors, many of them genetic. I'm sure not going to come one here and say for sure one way or the other, but has this person considered that he or his wife (or even both, given that all four children seem affected) is probably a more likely cause than vaccines? I mean there's like millions of kids born every year and with or without vaccines the vast majority of them won't have Autism, but all four of his do? There's a statistically *much* higher linkage between his and his wife's genes than exists with vaccines no matter how you mess with the numbers. Even Wakefield never claimed that every child who gets vaccinated will get Autism.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    49. Re:This is a Big Deal by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      The simple question: should I vaccinate my kids? is now complicated.

      No, it isn't.

      We already knew the risk of 'adverse side effects' from vaccines. After Wakefield's fraud, we spent lots of money looking for more side effects, and found no new ones.

      The risk hasn't changed. What has changed is the fraud caused you to doubt the people who were not lying to you.

    50. Re:This is a Big Deal by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. Letting your kid eat McDonalds, while perhaps bad parenting, isn't neglectful.

      However, we can definitely look at particular things and say that they are unequivocally bad. From a medical standpoint, there's a lot of uncertainty - but there's a lot of certainty as well. Not treating your kids' infection is already considered neglect. Female genital cutting is as well, despite the fact that it's a cultural thing. There is little ambiguity that these are bad. It's (IMHO) the same with vaccines and homeopathy. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that vaccines work, and homeopathy doesn't - and none that show that vaccines cause damage, outside of some specific cases, or that homeopathy works.

      Before we get bogged down in the other stuff, let's start by disallowing those decisions which are unquestionably harmful.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    51. Re:This is a Big Deal by moortak · · Score: 1

      If it stopped with the parents and their children maybe a callous Darwinian approach would be the way to go. It doesn't. Lower vaccination weaken herd immunity, putting those either unable to get the vaccine or for whom the vaccine was ineffective at greater risk. A larger host population also increases the chance for the virus to mutate in a way the decreases the effectiveness of the vaccine.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    52. Re:This is a Big Deal by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      That's the nature of conspiracy theory and propaganda-- people readily believe things that are either shocking or that fit into their worldview, and resist un-believing such things because they don't like the idea that this new comfortable information could possibly be false.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    53. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. In both cases, a few paid shills with degrees are trotted out in the media to try to discredit the vast body of scientific knowledge in support of the opposite conclusion.

      Anti-vaccination nuts really are similar to anti-global-warning nuts

    54. Re:This is a Big Deal by microTodd · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. This did cause me to research thimerosol and bisphenol-A, which I would not have done otherwise.

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    55. Re:This is a Big Deal by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Every single day, parents make choices that effect their child. Many of them will be considered damaging for life by others. So, who, if not the parent, gets to decide what is good and what is bad for a child?

    56. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know of any doctors who advised their patients not to vaccinate. Doctors were skeptical of Wakefield's research from the outset. Proper clinical trials require dozens, hundreds, or better yet, thousands of subjects to return statistically significant results. Wakefield's paper was based on his examination of twelve kids. Just a dozen, and the parents of most of those would not have provided specimens if he hadn't collected them at a child's birthday party (and paid money to the parents for their consent). This was a scam from the very beginning, and I'm surprised it took this long for it to finally be exposed.

      Full disclosure: posting as anonymous coward, but I work for a public health agency, in a program that distributes vaccines. We've tried for over a decade to dispel this myth about autism, but even with all the scientific evidence available to refute it as a hoax, it stil persists, thanks to dipshits like Jenny McCarthy, Oprah Winfrey and Jim Carrey. Wealthy celebrities who think just because they're famous, everyone should listen to them instead of doctors and scientists.

    57. Re:This is a Big Deal by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      Except that isn't true. You speak of "vaccines" as if they are all the exact same thing. They are not, and pretending like they are is dangerous. I will agree that we can see the results of the polio vaccine, but there is no way that we can be sure of the side effects of the chicken pox vaccine. The particular side effect I am concerned with is making the virus WAY more deadly. You see, chicken pox is a major inconvenience for a child. To put it in perspective, it is less risky than playing high school football. Chicken pox is dramatically more dangerous for an adult. At the time that I had to choose whether to give it to my child, it had not been tested long enough to find out if it provided life long immunity like actually catching the disease does, or if it just delayed the disease long enough to become more dangerous.

      Given the low risk from catching chicken pox as a child, I chose not to have it administered to my child. 3 years later, large outbreak of chicken pox started showing up in schools with almost 100% immunization. As it turns out, the vaccine doesn't provide life long protection. The recommendations to pediatricians was to start giving boosters at (I believe) 5 years of age.

      Now, this might protect them for life, or it might just protect them long enough that the people involved in the decision have made (or saved) their money, and the child (now an adult) can deal with an unnecessarily life threatening disease on their own dime.

      Point being is that the risk reward, and known issues are vastly different when comparing the the polio vaccine vs. the chicken pox vaccine. Lumping all vaccines into a single category as if they all have the same risk/reward SHOULD fuel suspicion.

    58. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      //My friend has four children, all with some form of autism -

      At what point should your friend stop having defective children?

    59. Re:This is a Big Deal by Burdell · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I tried to come up with an imaginary response, but I found that too complex.

    60. Re:This is a Big Deal by Tack · · Score: 1

      You will always find a few crackpots or frauds like Wakefield who happen to have PhD or MD beside their names who will say absurd things and maintain positions not borne out by the evidence. The Discovery Institute has managed to put together an impressive list of ostensibly well-educated people (even biologists) who deny evolution. This does not mean this even remotely represents any scientific consensus. Project Steve is NCSE's satirical response to DI's lame list, a counter list of scientists who endorse evolution all named Steve (or some close variant).

      The people who "knew" about a vaccine/autism link were similarly way out on the fringe. The literature you speak of is sparse, with low quality studies and/or tiny sample sizes, and the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against any such causal connection, and has been for a long time now. Initial reaction to preliminary studies like Wakefield's is always met with skepticism, and then it trends toward a position as the data comes in -- in this case, the position that there is no link whatsoever.

      You're right, I do also see a lot of similarities here with climate change.

    61. Re:This is a Big Deal by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

      If there were a God of Justice, Wakefield would be felled by polio and end up in an iron lung.

      He is almost certainly up to date on all his vaccinations. He knows well that they are safe and effective. Therefore, in order for him to get polio he'd have to be one of the very rare cases the vaccine didn't work for and be exposed to it. But I suppose a god of justice could make that happen.

    62. Re:This is a Big Deal by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      To be blunt, you are being far too pedantic.

      The question "Should I have my child vaccinated?" lacks sufficient detail to provide a 100% accurate response, as there are no specific diseases listed. Therefore, most posters are going to assume the discussion is about the "controversial" vaccines that are the subject of the discussion. Hence the correct answer of "yes".

      It is silly to assume that the answer to such a vague question applies to all vaccines ever created. I can think of several off the top of my head for deadly diseases that should not be given to children and are not routinely given to children (such as smallpox and polio)

      More to the point, the grandparent post was continuing the fallacy that there are legitimate questions about all vaccines, a lingering result of Wakefield's fraud. The poster is doubting the doctors that did not lie because the poster continued to have a residual belief in Wakefield. The point of giving such a succinct answer was to drive home that there is no controversy. The Anti-vax movement is attempting to muddle the issue and build more distrust of the medical community that were not engaged in fraud in order to continue perpetrating that fraud.

      Besides, you completely missed the other reasons my answer would be incorrect in all cases: children with allergies to the components of the vaccine, children with compromised immune systems or children that are too young. If you're going to spend your time making sure every single post on Slashdot is hyper-accurate you can't let such things go without correction.

    63. Re:This is a Big Deal by Belial6 · · Score: 1
      No, I am not. If you look at this entire discussion, the argument is whether "vaccines" are good or bad. Look at all of the people pointing out how 'stupid' other people are for not understanding that Wakefield's 'study' only concerned specific vaccines, yet many people avoided all vaccines because they didn't know the difference. Getting vaccinated is generally rounded up into one big ball in most peoples minds. Try asking the next ten parents what vaccines were given to their kids. Specifically. Some might be able to tell you mumps, polio, or chicken pox, but beyond that they are will likely tell you that they don't know. I would be that not one of the those ten parents could tell you all of the vaccines their kids were given. Why? Because most people don't know one vaccine from the next. This leads both the avoidance of good vaccines, and the unquestioned acceptance of bad ones.

      The parent poster said:

      The simple question: should I vaccinate my kids? is now complicated.

      You said gave answer of:

      No, it isn't.

      Your answer is wrong. When I called you on it, you used the excuse that the subject is too complicated to give a yes or no answer, which is what the parent poster said, and you argued.

      You claim that the conversation is about the "controversial" vaccines. If that was the case, there would be no "controversy". There are alternative vaccines for all of the disease that were covered by Wakefield's 'study'. If people were not confused and lumping all vaccines in together, they would just use the alternatives, and that would be the end of the story.

      Even you are confused as you claim the polio vaccine should not be given to children. The primary recipient of the polio vaccine is children. Only high risk adults get the polio vaccine. Obviously the subject is too complicated for you to fully grasp, and thus, if a highly intelligent person like you finds it complicated, you can't expect normal people to find it simple.

      What has happened here is that you made a general statement about vaccines that was simply wrong. When called on it, you tried to change your meaning by claiming that you only meant the vaccines made "contraversal" by Wakefield. The problem is that people either fall in the group that thinks that all vaccines are harmful, in which case you are wrong; or the fall into the group that understands what vaccines were covered by Wakefield, and even if they believed the 'study', would have just used one of the other vaccines for the same disease with no controversy. Thus you would still be wrong.

      It is not that I am being pedantic. It is that there is no combination of meanings in what you said that can leave you correct.

    64. Re:This is a Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a kind of God of Justice. It's called the court system. Why is that bastard not rotting in a jail cell forever? He indirectly killed several hundred children for PROFIT.

    65. Re:This is a Big Deal by H0D_G · · Score: 2

      Meryl Dorey got thrashed by radio journalist Tracey Spicer just last week

      http://is.gd/khcTU

      It's fantastic

      --
      Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
    66. Re:This is a Big Deal by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Mainstream science actually rejected the link, because Wakefield's solitary study couldn't be replicated and didn't support the sorts of things he was claiming anyway. Vaccine-autism proponents were a vocal minority of nonspecialists trotted out by the media in a misplaced effort to provide "balance", having more in common with climate change denial, than the climate change consensus.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    67. Re:This is a Big Deal by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Two related posts by me to other comments to this article that echo your point from another angle:
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1947552&cid=34856878
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1947552&cid=34860252

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  7. Re:Doesn't Jenny McCarthy look stupid now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's not egg.

  8. Re:Doesn't Jenny McCarthy look stupid now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... egg on her face

    That's basically what the Japanese word "bukkake" means

  9. Obligatory Office Space Quote by scubamage · · Score: 4, Funny

    "You know what I can't figure out? How is it that all these stupid neanderthal mafia guys can be so good at crime, and smart guys like us can suck so badly at it."

    1. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      I think the problem is called conscience. That's what corporations are for, it's intelligence without conscience.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      That's what corporations are for, it's intelligence without conscience.

      For a corporation to lack a conscience, it has to have CxOs without consciences. Of course, having one automatically disqualifies one brom being a Chief Officer of most corporations.

    3. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's the problem with corporations, right there, in a nutshell.

      They favour the concentration of a large amount of power in the hands a few people. The larger the corporation (and thus the more power it wields), the more likely the CEO is to be a sociopathic bastard, because this is what it takes to compete with all the other sociopathic bastards to get to the top of that massive pyramid.

      So the most effective means of consolidating power is also the most likely to place that power in the hands of someone who'll misuse it. And they get to command the actions of otherwise OK guys who have become the equivalent of the henchmen of Dr Evil just because they have this overpowering urge not to be street people.

    4. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by gtall · · Score: 0

      Yeah, let's get rid of the corporations. We don't need no stinking cars, electricity, drugs, food, petroleum products, lumber, clothes, etc. We'll all live off the land in our little bunny world of a dirtball planet.

    5. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by ultranova · · Score: 2

      For a corporation to lack a conscience, it has to have CxOs without consciences.

      Wrong. It's entirely possible to have an organization made entirely of normal people, yet have it behave in ways that are normally deserved for cartoony supervillainy. The trick is to make every member of the organization think that he's just doing his duty, just doing his job, just following orders.

      This is what "banality of evil" really means: it doesn't take malice or greed to do evil, simple passive cowardice is quite sufficient.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    6. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by DamnRogue · · Score: 2

      Corporations - and governments.

    7. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by thijsh · · Score: 2

      Why is that always the response to this valid point? The guy points out an obvious truth that people with too much power tend to be corrupted evil bastards with lack of morals and ethics and your solution is to go back to the stone age... What about trying to keep modern things but still addressing this issue by not giving crazy amounts of power to any single human being? I'm fairly sure that we can figure out how to do that *and* keep corporations and society functioning...

    8. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      They favour the concentration of a large amount of power in the hands a few people. The larger the corporation (and thus the more power it wields), the more likely the CEO is to be a sociopathic bastard, because this is what it takes to compete with all the other sociopathic bastards to get to the top of that massive pyramid.

      In reality, studies have shown this to be the exact opposite of true. Typically nice guys get elevated faster than sociopathic bastards, because people don't like to promote sociopathic bastards, especially not to positions above them. Would you?

      What happens is once the people get to the top, they become corrupted by the power. It happens again and again. Here's a quote:

      Psychologists refer to this as the paradox of power. The very traits that helped leaders accumulate control in the first place all but disappear once they rise to power

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, let's get rid of the corporations. We don't need no stinking cars, electricity, drugs, food, petroleum products, lumber, clothes, etc. We'll all live off the land in our little bunny world of a dirtball planet.

      Strawman arguments are lies.

    10. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Yeah, let's get rid of the corporations

      That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Rather then getting rid of them, you pass laws and regulations limiting the damage their sociopathy causes.

      Of course, in a system like the US where a large corporation can pretty much own politicians lock, stock, and barrel, that would be pretty damned hard to do.

    11. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Counterintuitive, and interesting. I'll have to look into this more. They say "power corrupts" and I've always doubted it, thinking power attracts the corruptible. Now it seems that they've proven that power corrupts? Hmmm.

    12. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      Nice to be proven wrong so well.

      I guess what we really need are rulers like Lord Vetinari in the Discworld novels ; who considers a slice a dry bread and a glass of water an elegant sufficency, and who's one quirk seems to be a disproportionate dislike of mime artists.

    13. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nope. Everyone can shift the blame on someone else and pretend to do "good", which somehow kinda has to entail some "evil", but the "good" is more important. It works on every level.

      Some team leader has to fire one of his people, because 10% of the staff has to be cut. He knows all of his employees and knows that all of them really, really NEED that job, but he has to pick one. So he does. Is he evil for firing Bill who will have to move out onto the street with his wife and 2 kids (another one coming soon)? No, what were his options.

      His superior is facing the same problem. He can't do anything about it, it's an order from the CxO level.

      The CxOs in turn don't do that because they're "evil". They do it because they have a responsibility towards the shareholders, people who invest their hard earned money in the company to build a nestegg for retirement. And what about the other people working here? If he doesn't lay off 10% of the people now, the company could go under, or the investors would lose a lot of their income, maybe threatening their retirement!

      The investors in turn don't even know anything about the layoffs. They handed their money to their bank which does the investing for them.

      The bank in turn doesn't care for the layoffs. They have a responsibility to their investors to earn money for them! The investor there feels responsible for the money entrusted to him and needs to make the best out of it for his customer, that's his responsibility.

      And thus the circle closes, with Bill being likely responsible himself for being laid off. Without even knowing.

      Everyone is responsible for something, everyone has a duty to someone, everyone can shift the blame on someone. Intelligence without conscience.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't think it is a necessary result of attaining power, though. I take it more as a warning, to be careful not to become 'corrupt' once I become powerful. Not that I am becoming powerful, but if I ever did.......

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      That's not the kind of evil I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Monsanto plants were so filthy before the Clean Air Act that you couldn't drive past one without your lungs burning. How my grandfather fell four stories down an elevator shaft before OSHA was enacted because Purina was too sociopathic to put doors on the elevators. How BP cut corners and ignored their engineers in the Gulf of Mexiso and wound up ruining thousands of people's occupations and lives. How Sony put rootkits on music CDs, and removed features from game consoles that had already been shipped.

    16. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's not evil. That's profit. The closer the single person is to the problem at hand, the more they can blame the "higher ups" for it and that they can't do anything about it because if they don't, someone else will instead. And the further away and higher up someone is, the less he even knows about it.

      And all it takes in between is some sociopath that really doesn't give a shit about human lives as long as his quarter report looks good and his bonus matches that.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:Obligatory Office Space Quote by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but poisoning the air and water is evil. Period. Killing people is evil. Period. Profit is no excuse, and "well, someone else would do it anyway" is no excuse either.

      Killing for profit is far more evil than killing because of rage. To twist Jeff Foxworthy, "If you believe that killing people to increase your profits isn't evil, you just might be a sociopath.

  10. Damage is already done by bsDaemon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are so many parents who believed (the media interpretation of) the first study that they kept their kids from getting vaccinated. As a result, it has been more common to see childhood illnesses which had been virtual eradicated with the help of vaccination, particularly measles, as well as some other more dangerous diseases. Lives have been put at risk because this guy gambled (correctly) that new parents are easy to freak out and take advantage of. Now there is the daunting task of convincing those same parents, who aren't going to want to admit they were basically taken in a huge scam and put their kids at risk because they were dumb, which means a large number of people are going to convince themselves the retraction is a scam/conspiracy/etc and that the original study was right.

    Is there a degree of felony high enough to cover this?

    1. Re:Damage is already done by ledow · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem was ignorant parents. At no point did anyone say that ALL MMR vaccines are dangerous - the (completely unfounded) rumours only ever circulated on the combined MMR vaccine. You still can, and always have been able to, get the separate vaccines which have been working since the 70's in just about everyone without any problems of the kind mentioned here. But parents didn't read that bit. They just read "vaccination" = "autism" (which happened to be complete bollocks anyway) and assumed it meant EVERY vaccination. Stupidity on the part of parents who can't read can't be blamed on governments or rogue doctors here.

      In the UK (where this doctor was based and doing his research and started this scandal), you could opt for the normal, old, tested vaccines without any problem at all. It was only the new, combined MMR vaccine that ever had such claims against it. Doctors in the UK routinely offered the alternatives to parents who were worried. It was only the *dumb* parents who immediately steered clear of things that had been working, without problems, without dubious claims, and without association with any such scandals, even when they were offered them. The media over here actually did a good job of separating it out and offering correct advice, but some people always get too hysterical to actually LISTEN to what they are being told.

      It's like saying that a particular model of car has been recalled because of faulty brakes and then NOBODY buying a car ever again. It's that ridiculous.

      And it wouldn't be a felony, because he's in the UK and we don't have that word. However, he's already been dismissed by the GMC and will never practice as a doctor again. There's also the very-real possibility of legal action against the doctor, hospital, government advisers that listened, etc.

    2. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Is there a degree of felony high enough to cover this?

      Decades of wrongful death litigation might be enough.

    3. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the problem was a manipulative, amoral researcher and an *IGNORANT PRESS* that blindly accepted the assertions made by the antivax crowd as if they had the same weight as the scientific community.

      Just because someone has a loud opinion doesn't mean they deserve an equal chunk of the spotlight, and damn you all to Hell, Oprah, Larry King, and every other tabloid "journalist" that profited off of the "controversy."

      And these sons of bitches sleep like angels, I bet.

    4. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People who have been misled by false information are just that: 'misled'. People who choose to endanger their children (and others secondarily) after they know the facts are provably negligent.

      While it may be hard to prosecute for this because it is not that black-and-white (and people can always play the religion wildcard) it is possible to prosecute negligent parents when it does go wrong and their children die of a preventable disease... It is not pretty since they already lost their child, but other people might learn from their mistakes... If people don't see the consequence and learn from it we all are at risk of infection so there is a reasonable incentive to prosecute and shame these willfully neglectful parents as much as legally possible so people will say 'they would never mistreat their children like that'.

    5. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid I have to correct you here, part of the above comment is bollocks! The statement about the report being about the combined MMR is correct, but the availability of the single vaccines is not.

      Doctors have been told to refuse requests for single vaccines through West London, Berkshire, Hampshire and Oxfordshire (the areas that we have checked), and in one vaccine's case (Mumps) the single vaccine is no longer imported, nor available, in this country.

      Single vaccines for Measles and Rubella can be had on the private market (at a cost), but they are *not* available through the NHS, nor from *any* NHS Doctor's surgery. Choice has been removed by a government that pushed the combined vaccine even at the expense of parents who would quite happily use the single vaccines. Whether the government was "right" regarding the combined vaccine is irrelevant, by removing the choice from the NHS they are, partially, to blame for the current mess.

    6. Re:Damage is already done by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Lives have been put at risk because this guy gambled (correctly) that new parents are easy to freak out and take advantage of.

      "Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid.

      People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
      -- Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander

    7. Re:Damage is already done by Nyder · · Score: 1

      There are so many parents who believed (the media interpretation of) the first study that they kept their kids from getting vaccinated. As a result, it has been more common to see childhood illnesses which had been virtual eradicated with the help of vaccination, particularly measles, as well as some other more dangerous diseases. Lives have been put at risk because this guy gambled (correctly) that new parents are easy to freak out and take advantage of. Now there is the daunting task of convincing those same parents, who aren't going to want to admit they were basically taken in a huge scam and put their kids at risk because they were dumb, which means a large number of people are going to convince themselves the retraction is a scam/conspiracy/etc and that the original study was right.

      Is there a degree of felony high enough to cover this?

      Which religion are you talking about there?

      --
      Be seeing you...
    8. Re:Damage is already done by IICV · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's like saying that a particular model of car has been recalled because of faulty brakes and then NOBODY buying a car ever again. It's that ridiculous.

      The thing is, though, that people aren't inherently scared of cars. This whole antivax manufactroversy only got traction because a large portion of the population is simply scared shitless of needles. Like, completely and unreasonably unhinged when presented with something long and pointy that's meant to go in your arm. Do not want to the max extreme sort of thing.

      Essentially, a lot of people were just looking for some excuse, any excuse, to justify to themselves why they shouldn't vaccinate their children - and Jenny McCarthy handed them one on a silver platter.

    9. Re:Damage is already done by deadweight · · Score: 1

      A SciFi/Fantasy series. This one is from Wizard's First Rule. http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-First-Rule-Sword-Truth/dp/0765362643/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294858332&sr=1-1 The series starts good and kind of decays into an Ayn Randian mess around book 6.

    10. Re:Damage is already done by smugfunt · · Score: 1

      And it wouldn't be a felony, because he's in the UK and we don't have that word.

      Actually we do, though it's rarely used. It means a crime which attracts a five year tariff or more for a first offence.
      You can only make a citizen's arrest if you witness a felony.

    11. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty good troll, but you forgot to work in a "sheeple". 8/10 overall

    12. Re:Damage is already done by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Maybe you failed to notice. Here, I'll point it out in big scary letters like yours: WE LIVE LONGER AND HEALTHIER LIVES THAN ANY PEOPLE IN HISTORY. Modern medicine is not perfect. Not even close. There's lots of holes in our knowledge of the exact ways and meas that out bodies work and grow. New discoveries often change previously held viewpoints. That said, it works better than anything else out there. We live one average 25-30 years longer than people even a hundred years ago, and we remain relatively active, healthy, and productive for more of those years. Out infant mortality rates are a fraction of what they were. If we had a decent single payer health care system they'd probably be even lower (they are in most of Europe).

      Go find your father (you can probably do that, because he's probably still alive and healthy barring accident or freak illness) and ask him to open his mouth wide. What you will no doubt see, assuming he still has most of his natural teeth, is a patchwork and cacophony of metal and epoxy fillings. You probably don't have that. Wanna know why? Because there's fluoride in your water and has been since you were small. My father has 12 filling in his head and by the time he was my age he'd had a root canal. My mother has 6 or 7 fillings. I have none. I am 36 years old and I have never had a cavity. All signs point to me never ever having a cavity. I will most likely die with the same teeth I lived with since that magical that around 7 or so when The Toothfairy brought me my first quarter. I'll most likely do that dying at 80 or 90 years old instead of my early 60s. I'll most likely have most of my faculties be able to maintain a fairly robust life until shortly before that death or even right up until it. I could also get hit by a bus tomorrow, but there's not a lot to be done about that. I'll take the modern medicine, thanks.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    13. Re:Damage is already done by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      Of course, we see the same kind of stupidity with people supporting vaccines that we see with the ones condemning them. How many people (other than you) in this discussion are talking about particular vaccines. Many of the pro-vaccine folks here are calling anyone that doesn't get vaccines 'killers', and suggesting that they should go to jail. They don't say that people who don't get the measles vaccine are bad, or the polio vaccine. They just say vaccine.

      I can tell you that for my child, there was no question about getting the polio vaccine. The risk of not taking the vaccine was far greater than the risk of taking it. Heck, I even told my 1 year old son that we were going to the doctor to get a shot, and what it was for. The chicken pox vaccine on the other hand is just down right scary. It is a major childhood inconvenience, that is being delayed long enough to become a deadly adult disease by a vaccine that doesn't provide life long immunity. Since everyone in the chain makes money off of delaying the disease into adulthood, except for the child, the push is to keep giving them the vaccine. Heck, even the CDC has listed "Expense of parent missing work" as a reason to give your child the chicken pox vaccine.

      Lumping 'Vaccines" as a single entity is simply dumb. It is dumb whether you lump them all as bad, or lump them all as good. You may come to the conclusion that they are all good or bad, but one being good does not make another bad and vice versa.

    14. Re:Damage is already done by SquirrelDeth · · Score: 0

      possible to prosecute negligent parents when it does go wrong and their children die of a preventable disease
      Since every life is sacred to you I'm assuming you are also a pro-life wackjob or a hypocrite. People have a right do do what they want with their bodies or do you only believe that when it comes to abortion and sex changes? And also my religion forbids unclean animals (got to be kosher) are you an anti-Semite as well? Would you like to put me in a "camp" so you don't have to worry me and my family won't infect you? And also even if kosher was not an issue allergies are and I could die from certain vaccines and so could my children. Go back to praying to your picture of Hitler you fearful little redneck.

    15. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No government advisers (in the U.S. at least) gave much credence to the Wakefield study, but the FDA ordered thimerosol preservative removed from ALL vaccines, just to appease the true believers that MMR caused autism. Wakefield suggested that the vaccine wasn't the direct cause of autism, but that thimerosol might be. But thimerosol was a standard preservative for lots of vaccines, not just MMR.

      So ten years after thimerosol was withdrawn from the formulations of all vaccines, you'd think that autism rates would decline if there were any causal relationship. Just the opposite was observed. So now we have vaccines without thimerosol, which must be shipped and stored much more carefully, frozen or refrigerated below 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Because of the new storage requirements, we've seen millions of dollars of vaccine wasted because it wasn't stored properly, sitting on a loading dock over a summer weekend. Vaccines shipped to developing countries spoil because there isn't adequate refrigeration. And with all the wasted vaccine, the pharmaceutical companies have to raise the price because it costs more to manufacture. This scandal hurt everyone, not just the children of stupid parents who refused to vaccinate their kids, but also the parents who chose to vaccinate because the cost of this care went way, way up. And you still wonder why health care costs so damned much?

    16. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree with prosecution. Anyone who wouldn't be suitably punished by seeing their own child die will not be reformed by any punishment at all. Since no positive effect can be had either way, prosecution is just sadism and spite. If someone if to be punished, punish the "experts" and "authorities" that convinced the parents in the first place.

      It's not as if parents ignored all experts and medical advice, it's just that they chose the wrong authority to listen to.

    17. Re:Damage is already done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wakefield is filth, pure and simple. The only good I can see coming out of this sad case is that it will encourage scepticism regarding certain other pseudo-scientific scams being peddled by people who whip up fear and ignorance to line their pockets...

      Oh look, it's snowing again.

    18. Re:Damage is already done by jafac · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, there WAS a nice little side-benefit to his scam.

      IMHO; more money was spent on research to find the real cause (and treatments) for Autism (and related disorders) than would otherwise have been spent. I think that some of the genetic studies that were done probably would *not* have been done, or would not have been done with as large (and as decisive) a sample group, had the waters not been muddied up by this prior false data.

      The other side-benefit, is that it also drew attention to the use of mercury compounds as preservatives in medical solutions (not just vaccines). Many people ARE sensitive and allergic to these compounds, (particularly contact lens cleaning solutions), and I think that the industry developed alternatives as a result of the negative (if false) attention, brought by this scam-study.

      (I'm not advocating scam-studies as a way to bring attention to matters that our for-profit health industry would otherwise ignore. I'm just making lemonade out of the horrible lemons this man brought us.)

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    19. Re:Damage is already done by boxxertrumps · · Score: 1

      people are stupid.

      Mod parent up!

    20. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Damn, wrong side of the bed today? Chill out friend.

    21. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      I agree, it's kindof cruel and those parents won't learn... But even if it does not help them or leads to a conviction it shows a very clear warning to others and that's more needed now. Parents are entrusted with the care for their offspring, but their offspring is not their own body nor their property so they have to treat them responsibly. This message needs to be known to every parent, and (sadly) I don't know what other way would get the message across...

    22. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      It is intensely unethical to punish one person to teach another. You might as well grab a random person off the street and say "he's going to jail for your sins".

      What lesson would you have the parents learn? When opposing "experts" both blind you with science you should do a better job flipping that coin or face the consequences? Obey the government authorities in all matters great or small or else? No matter what you do, one day a cop will drag you away if you don't shoot him first? Kafka had a bit to say about crazy legal proceedings.

      So, I ask YOU citizen, will you flibbit the jim-jam like A says or will you knargle the flop like B says? Choose carefully citizen or there's a cell with your name on it!

    23. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Is it unethical to punish a person for letting a human being that was entrusted to their care die a preventable death? I agree that a judge *should* not give them any punishment because they have been punished enough, but at the very least they deserve a conviction.

    24. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      Is it unethical to punish a person for letting a human being that was entrusted to their care die a preventable death?

      Yes, given that it only becomes apparent (to them) in hindsight It is extremely unethical (bordering on obscene).Especially when the parents were following the advice of someone claiming to be a medical researcher who published in a well respected medical journal and everything. Or do you also advocate prosecutions of the next of kin in all cases where someone dies under medical care? (after all, they should have known to get a better doctor).

      Lets put it this way. You probably read in the news about that nutjob that shot the Congresswoman and over a dozen others right? Why the hell didn't you stop it? All you had to do is go there and yell "He's got a gun" as he walked up. I say we should fry you for mass murder!

      What's that you say? Not knowing is a valid excuse?

      Do you REALLY want to live in a world where simply being wrong despite your best efforts is treated as a crime? I would rather die in combat than allow your vision of the world to become reality. Even Mary Poppins was only "practically perfect".

    25. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      keywords: 'best efforts'... parents that believe idiots and thereby endanger their children are negligent. this isn't something that can only be seen in hindsight. i'm sure you can see the difference between an innocent bystander and people who ignore their own doctors advice because of an idiot from tv or the internet.

    26. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 2

      You apparently have no ability to understand that not everyone has your exact skillset. You might be surprised to learn that somewhere else there is someone saying anyone who doesn't know X should be locked up for life, and YOU don't know X. I can only hope to God you have no connection to any prosecutor's office now or ever.

      You should watch "Mystery Diagnosis". It's full of people who eventually had their hellish medical condition treated successfully only after they decided their doctor was an idiot and sought out another medical opinion.

      If you REALLY must satisfy your sadistic streak, perhaps you should focus your "punishment" on authority figures who commit fraud and convince these unfortunate parents to do the wrong thing. But be SURE you're punishing actual fraud and not people who are merely well intentioned but incorrect.

      One day you will realize in hindsight that you were wrong about something and it really mattered. You will then be very greatful there isn't a DA thinking the same way you are now. Or there will be such a DA and off to jail you'll go.

    27. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      sadistic? there is no need for name calling... and i do know doctors make mistakes like all humans, that is exactly what second opinions are for. i will make mistakes that will probably seem obvious in hindsight, but when that mistake cost someone their life i completely expect that to have consequences... also note that i said a conviction isn't even needed, just the message that it's an unacceptable failure. the 'experts' on the other hand should receive punishment but that is much harder to achieve in practice... the reason this is hard is because they always claim they didn't force anyone but only offered advice and they're free to offer any advice no matter how stupid. legally this is how responsibility works, so people should be careful whose advice they follow, whether from the doctor, charlatans, politicians, priests or crazy homeless people... you and only you are end responsible for your actions, there is more to the story than that but legally thats how it works. it is understandable that people try to blame others for their mistakes, but thankfully this isn't how law works.

    28. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      I'm not calling names, I'm being descriptive. What else am I to conclude from someone who while admitting that the parents have suffered enough and cannot learn anything from punishment they haven't already learned still advocates further punishment. Have you never heard that it's wrong to kick someone when they're down?

      Perhaps if we as a society could set aside our quest for excuses to kick people who are already down, we'd see less things calling for punishment in the first place.

      I TRULY find your attitude in this matter disgusting.

    29. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      judges often take into account the personal situation, a good rightful judge would convict the parents without giving an additional punishment... these kinds of verdicts are common in europe. no one thinks it is a good idea to also throw them in jail, but they have to show that people are supposed to act responsibly and can't lay the blame on others when their stupidity kills. in fact over here they also prosecute the people that give the stupid advice that leads to deaths mostly to make the point that it's not right even though there is never a conviction for this.

      you look at this matter too black and white, this isn't american politics where you have to be at one of two extremes, there is a middle ground here that isn't extreme. i find this attitude distasteful, implying someone is a sadist because his point is not on your side so it must be the most opposite evil... if you don't trust your judges to use good judgement and be just that is a whole other problem that you should try to fix, but over here you are not sent to the death camps the moment you have to appear before a judge... and if you believe a judge is too much too assess a situation legally when a child dies what other measure do you suggest the government should use to discourage this from happening again? Write a strongly worded letter perhaps and ask them if they please will promise to do better next time? i mean really, what's your solution?

    30. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      You act as if a trial is a simple procedure over in an hour at no real cost. It is FAR from that. It is a punishment in itself even when you are found not-guilty. It often leaves people bankrupt.

      In this case, what a great way to re-open or keep open a deep emotional wound.

      You clearly don't get it. I am not at all in the habit of calling people names just because I disagree with them. Feel free to check my posting history if you like (I'll wait right here...). I am calling you a sadist because you actually advocate taking grieving parents and putting them through even MORE hell than they have already suffered and rubbing their noses in the fact that their child is dead. That IS sadistic. Your attitude in this actually disgusts me. I find it reprehensible! I TRULY prefer that people with your view stay FAR away from anything to do with prosecution.

      That is: YOU MAKE ME SICK!

      Get it?

    31. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      If a non-extreme view like mine makes you sick you must have a stomach that is easily upset... What I don't understand (and I guess neither does your stomach) is that your reasoning would equally apply to parents who leave their baby in the car (often this is no real problem but sometimes the baby dies from heat and thirst). In my opinion these parents are responsible for their children's death and should be prosecuted for negligence, but according to your logic they shouldn't be punished because they suffered enough? And what about people who suffocate their baby intentionally? You have to get real, there is a line *somewhere* where you obviously do want parents to be held accountable, that line isn't easy for you or me to define, but a judge with proper legal knowledge has a much better capability for this... I just propose to use the experts we - as a society - have for exactly the purpose we have them, to legally assess the situation.

      I get your objections, they are valid and I understand that it can be a delicate situation. But you rant on how sick the very idea makes you and neglect to name any good alternative...

    32. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 2

      The cutoff point is fairly obvious in most cases. Intent is the key. For centuries the common law system recognized intent as essential to a crime. So in your examples, the parents who suffocate their baby intentionally should be punished.

      You could make a case for negligence where the baby is left in the car, but that's treading on thin ice and would IMHO require assessing the parents carefully before going forward. In this day and age, evidence suggests that few prosecutors have sufficient capacity for discretion, so it is probably best to just let the natural consequences serve as the punishment.

      In the vaccination case, the parents have already demonstrated that they are anything but negligent. They must have been quite concerned about their child's well being if they bucked the system in order to do what they thought was best (on the advice of an 'expert').

      If you're concerned that the parents who leave their child in the car or who choose not to have their child vaccinated learn the correct lesson from the suffering natural consequence brings them, give them grief counseling. If you want to make sure others don't make the same mistake, put out a public call for sympathy for the bereaved parents and explain the particulars (perhaps with a here's how to not end up like them piece). That approach is kinder, cheaper, probably more effective, and certainly more constructive.

      If you wanted my suggestion, all you had to do is ask.

      At one time, we understood that a prosecutor is supposed to also use judgment and to not unnecessarily burden either citizens or judges with cases that shouldn't be punished.

      If you want to drag every little thing to trial, what is your suggestion to make the trial itself non-punishing?

      As for non-extreme, it's truly a sad state of affairs if punishing one person who has already suffered for an error in judgment for the express purpose of teaching other people a lesson is considered non-extreme. All the more so when they were actually following the advice of someone held out to be an expert in the field.

      If you read carefully, you'll find that it flies in the face of most religious and moral teachings of the past 2000 years.

      It's worth noting that the cornerstone of the U.S. Justice system is supposedly giving people the benefit of the doubt and that it is better for 100 guilty to go free than to have one innocent punished. That in turn grows out of the same line of thought in the common law.

      I'll turn things around, why shouldn't I be sickened by the thought of a society that prefers to kick someone when they're down rather than help them up?

    33. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      You say the line is intent, but the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intent' has an origin, a lot of people are convicted that had the best intent but it just went wrong (like with the baby in the car). Proper criteria would be if something went wrong and people *could* have known and prevented it. When you accidentally kill without intent it is still manslaughter, but when you can show you had no way of knowing or preventing (a true accident) you can go free. So I would say this would differ per person for this scenario... You are right the DA has a role in evaluating these criteria, but the judge is the only one with the power to really evaluate the full story and respond appropriately.

      An example: Just this week in the Netherlands a young mother was arrested because she let her child alone and they found out because she left a pan on the stove that started smoking and someone called the fire department... She didn't have bad intent, and nothing serious happened (the kid is checked at the hospital for mild smoke inhalation), but it could have ended bad and is very neglectful so she learned the hard way that beside the scare she has to explain herself before a judge now... There probably won't be harsh consequences like losing her kid but the message is the important part. It is sad (and perhaps unnecessary) that she is now unable to visit her kid in the hospital, but how is she (and others by example) supposed to learn responsibility if there were no consequence at all?

      I agree with you that we don't need a lot more trivial lawsuits, and situations like this need to be carefully evaluated because like we both agree it is a very harsh consequence. But I don't think the death of an infant trusted to someones care is trivial, and there are situations where it definitely is needed to take action. In that case the fact that those people are down is not important just like the guy who drives drunk, crashes and kills his own wife in the passenger seat, it's sad that he already lost his wife but it should not be an excuse not to prosecute. But it can and *should* be an excuse for a judge to be lenient and withhold strong punishment. Like I said this is fairly common in European courts.

    34. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      There probably won't be harsh consequences like losing her kid but the message is the important part. It is sad (and perhaps unnecessary) that she is now unable to visit her kid in the hospital, but how is she (and others by example) supposed to learn responsibility if there were no consequence at all?

      So, in order to teach her the lesson she's already learned through natural consequences, they not only kick her when she's down, they sucker punch the child in the gut as well? And you believe that to be a constructive response? What do you think the child did wrong to deserve to be deprived of one of the most important emotional supports a child has? Do you consider the child's well being unimportant? Less important than inflicting additional punishment on a terrified mother? (and yes, unless she's mentally ill, she is terrified to see what could have happened) Perhaps you simply neglected the well being of the child (shouldn't you be punished)?

      After all of this, what lesson do you think the woman will learn from "the authorities" that she hasn't already learned by the natural consequences other than "whatever you do, never call the fire department"?

      What lesson do you think the child learns here?

      You REALLY and TRULY can't see any more constructive response than threatening a mother and child with separation (even if you don't advocate following through)?

    35. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      There are probably better ways (like for most things, I realize that), but in our current society with our current legal system it is the best response in my opinion. I hope the woman will be reunited with her baby tomorrow, but she deserves a reprimand for her irresponsibility. She was stupid and lucky (note that someone else called the fire department while she was out, if they didn't this story could have had a much worse ending), and she should know not only that but also that society does not tolerate people treating their babies like that. I really don't wish people like her anything terrible, but I also shiver to think how some people would treat their children if something like this makes the news with the note that the women just gets away with it... People do a lot of stupid shit they know/feel isn't right if they just think they can get away with it.

    36. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      You need to read your own words from a 3rd party perspective! You've been corrupted by the crap. For example, you used the phrase "gets away with it?". She has had a terrifying realization that a few moment's lapse of awareness nearly killed her child. In what way is that getting away with something? Do you not think that will nag at her for quite some time? You make her sound like a nefarious criminal on the lam after plotting to almost kill her child. Yes, she was indeed stupid and lucky, but do we really want that to be a crime? Do you imagine yourself to be above momentary lapses in judgment?

      From the child's perspective, no action at all from society would be better than what was done.

      Note, if you can show that this incident was part of a pattern of negligent behavior, you could make a case for doing more than leaving her with her own recognizance, but even then, criminal action wouldn't likely be it. It would be an indication that she was somehow impaired and perhaps not competent to raise a child without supervision, but it wouldn't show that she was criminal in nature.

      If that's REALLY the best the authorities can come up with, then the lesson I get is that the authorities are a domestic enemy of the people and should be treated as such. If you wonder why law and order seems to be breaking down in our society and why there are neighborhoods the police are afraid to go to at night, you've just found your answer! (I am not the first or the last citizen to learn this particular lesson you see).

    37. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      In the Netherlands it is in fact a crime to leave someone in need of help entrusted to your care alone, at least in some situations when they can be in harms way.

      But lets consider a time without criminal law when people lived as a tribal society and a clan would discuss these matters in their clan meetings (like some tribes such as the Maori still do today). When a young mother would have endangered a child thoughtlessness she would have been reprimanded and reminded that the child is not hers alone but it is a child of the whole tribe, and she has a sacred responsibility to care for and protect the child. She would not receive punishment but would be asked to observe tradition and perhaps be guided by older clan members. When however this woman was so careless to let something like that happen again there would certainly be another consequence beside strong words and a helping hand because by failing your child yo fail the whole clan... Solving a matter like this in the family court of a clan would be better in lots of regards than the modern day court equivalents, but in essence they serve the same role... A court can also help parents, not only punish them... Sadly there is less emphasis on this part nowadays but it is still an integral part of justice and most judges here keep in mind all personal circumstances. Helping people who have a hard time learning and repeat stupid mistakes becomes harder and these people often need to face some punishment to stimulate them to improve themselves. Like you mentioned a pattern of negligent behavior should be detected and acted upon, but how would you know if no authority is ever involved? Wouldn't a judge or other authority have to warn them to be able to establish this history of neglect?

      You asked if i'm above lapses in judgement, of course not, I do stupid shit just like anyone else But I believe that when you fuck up bad you need to take responsibility... I have a recent stupid example from newyear when me and my friends messed around just a little and were kicking fireworks at each other. It's all harmless fun and games but there is an ever so slight chance something does go wrong and I accidentally blind someone. The way I look at it I knew a slight risk existed and took the chance nothing would happen and it didn't, but when something would have happened I would have taken responsibility because it was my fault and I chose to ignore the danger. There can be a lot of legal consequences from blinding someone with firework but I would have manned up and taken that responsibility. Of course no-one wants things to go so wrong it does damage that can't be undone, but when that happens most people just make excuses and shift blame... But do you really want people to blame others more for their fuck-ups? Do you really want parents to feel less responsibility towards their children and society and be more busy with themselves? I fucking hope I will never fuck up so bad that I hurt mine or any others children, but when I do I will take full responsibility and face the consequences.

      P.S. On some ways authorities are the domestic enemy of the people, I completely agree with you there. But it hasn't come to a point that they have no merit or justice whatsoever. Well, until our justice system has become so corrupted and crazy that minors or mentally handicapped are given death sentences, some attempt at justice is still preferable to anarchy but there is a limit. We have to work with the flawed tools our society has (and attempt improve those), not abolish them because they are not perfect. I don't believe things are so hopeless yet, but perhaps given time and enough injustice I might change my mind about that...

    38. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      But lets consider a time without criminal law when people lived as a tribal society and a clan would discuss these matters in their clan meetings (like some tribes such as the Maori still do today).....

      In other words, the counseling and support I was talking about with an implicit lesson to others. No people with guns keeping the mother from the child, threats to lose the child, or the need to pay more than a year's wages to a lawyer (and so have no money to feed the baby with) to avoid those things. That is, a genuine non-punitive action that brings the tribe together and lets the mother know that the elders are behind her ready to help. Entirely in-line with 2000 years of moral and ethical thought from all around the world. Pretty much the opposite of being dragged to a criminal trial no matter the outcome.

      I'm honestly amazed that you cannot see the difference!

      As for domestic enemies, I would have to say that law enforcement and the justice system have failed miserably. Parents now advise their children that if they get lost, find an adult with children and tell them, but DO NOT EVER TALK TO A COP. They say this out of concern for their child and their family, and they do so in sincerity. These are not negligent people.

      As for executing the mentally handicapped, the supreme court finally decided that the ongoing executions of the retarded were wrong if their IQ was below 70, but only after several such executions happened. The mentally ill have no protection at all unless they are so far gone that they can't distinguish any right from wrong at all even in theory. Interestingly, the people responsible for those unconscionable executions faced no criminal proceedings at all to correct their reprehensible behavior.

      As for taking responsibility, that's quite different from punishment. If you injure someone you are responsible for making them whole again to the extent that you can. That has nothing whatsoever to do with criminal law, it's a civil matter.

      Note, however, in the case you mention with the fireworks, everyone concerned was aware of the risks and voluntarily accepted them. All share in those risks then and no assault takes place. Had you injured someone you and the other participants would share in responsibility for helping him to recover. You (collectively) paying his medical bills and giving your sincere apologies would help him a lot. You going to jail (or for that matter to any court) would accomplish no good for him or anyone else. In fact, it would only damage your ability to make the money you needed to pay your liabilities, and so would hurt the person you injured.

      As for learning lessons, are you actually saying that had you blinded someone you would have continued the same behavior in future unless you were arrested and made to appear before a judge?

      If not, then what good did the arrest and judge do?

    39. Re:Damage is already done by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Good points, and you're right that getting arrested wouldn't make any difference to me in regard to not making the same mistake twice. I like to think that I'm responsible enough to apologize, help and pay bills. The problem is the people who don't feel that responsibility and need to be coerced to do what's right, or in this case not wronging someone. A lot of people would fuck the guy in need of help over and only be concerned for themselves... It's like you said: "You apparently have no ability to understand that not everyone has your exact skillset."

      As for trust in authority I guess the difference created by an ocean between us is larger than I thought... Here people still tell their kids to trust cops to help them and here people get fair trials without going bankrupt. Here we still trust authority to protect us from egotistical people who refuse to take any responsibility when given the opportunity. I can understand that someone who lives in a world where those things aren't true would see authority as cruel and a trial as punishment itself, but can you understand that in a world where these things do still hold true it's not nearly as severe?

      And besides kids go in front of a judge (who wants to help them and looks at their background) for things as minor as graffiti or shoplifting candy and get a slap on the wrist (actually they really try to prevent kids like that from turning into criminals, part of which is not doing jailtime because that often makes it worse), don't you think that issues regarding the (almost) death of an infant are significantly more important and worthy enough of some time by that same (caring) judge*.
      *based on the axiom that justice is being served equally for all and not just the right of the rich and famous.

    40. Re:Damage is already done by sjames · · Score: 1

      A key to this is to act against people once they have proven they won't otherwise do the right thing, not before. In the example, in the unlikely event that you shirked your responsibility you could then be sued.

      Here, the system in the past depended on police and prosecutors to show appropriate discretion. Sometimes that still happens here, it's just that fewer people are comfortable counting on that. Of course, since the court's only power was punitive, it made sense that the court only saw cases where police, prosecutor, and a grand jury agreed there was likely a criminal act to be adjudicated. Also in theory we have a right to a court appointed attorney.

      In any event, it was commonly felt that you would be exceedingly unlikely to face any of that unless you knowingly committed a crime and truly deserved some sort of punishment. We MIGHT have just been fooling ourselves, but it certainly seemed to be true for the most part.

      The minor offenses of youth were generally handled adequately by the parents themselves with no involvement of the authorities. This would include the parents insisting that the child pay for the candy while apologizing in person to the shopkeeper or cleaning off the graffiti, also with an apology. Other punishment (such as grounding) would likely follow.

      In practice, police and prosecutors have become more interested in 'putting someone away' than in justice. More and more seem to not particularly care about who they put away for what. It is also said that a half competent DA can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. The public defender tends to be so overworked that he might not meet his client until actually in the court room and probably won't remember his name. A vigorous and skillful defense is unlikely. Thus, even the poor are advised to pay hundreds an hour for legal representation.

      If your courts do well enough that simply appearing before a judge isn't in itself a punishment, then I can see it would be less of a problem there when they get involved. I might still say that some of what you say is excessively authoritarian, but it would at least be conscionable.

  11. Hmm... by Haedrian · · Score: 2

    Maybe, just maybe, so much power over life and death shouldn't be given to for-profit organisations?

    Because then you end up with crap like this.

    1. Re:Hmm... by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Wakefield was working at a public hospital doing publicly-funded research. It's a shame he missed his true calling to do utterly abysmal science for a dodgy pharmaceutical firm, but I don't think that his setting made much of a difference to his ethics.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Hmm... by Haedrian · · Score: 2

      "Wakefield began courting interest in a hundred-million-dollar diagnostics firm."
      "...hoped to seed the company with government legal aid money and profit by charging "premium prices" for new diagnostic tests to be used in vaccine injury"

      The fact that you can make big money off this sort of thing is the main problem. While it was publicly-funded research, his idea was to use this in order to make money off the side from something like that.

    3. Re:Hmm... by bws111 · · Score: 1

      So no publicly-funded researcher ever falsified data to increase grant money (or keep their job)? The problem is that this guy was a greedy, unethical scam artist. Don't make it out to be anything more.

    4. Re:Hmm... by vlm · · Score: 2

      Maybe, just maybe, so much power over life and death shouldn't be given to for-profit organisations?

      Because then you end up with crap like this.

      Continuing that line of thought, you can't pay or promote individual docs for their work, or they could falsify their results. The only option available is a union payscale. Similar to military doctors whom get paid pretty much on salary.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:Hmm... by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but you must also prevent the researchers from having any contact with the outside. After all, didn't this case start with some lawyers offering him money so they could sue the for-profit companies?

    6. Re:Hmm... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Heh, that's funny. Back when Wakefield was the champion of the loonies, the argument was "YOU'RE JUST REPRESSING HIS SCIENCE BECAUSE YOU'RE A BIG-PHARMA BOOT-LICKER!!". Now that he's been exposed as a total fraud, the argument is "Well, this is what happens when Big Pharma wants to make a profit".

      Just can't win with you bastards, eh?

  12. Not *entirely* news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hi, speaking on behalf of the medical field, we've known a bunch of this for years. Which is why the accusations from the Anti-Vax mob about "Pushing Poison" on behalf of "Big Pharma" was so infuriating. This asshole lied about MMR and other vaccines because he was pushing his own vaccine. He's done incalculable harm, for his OWN profit, and his supporters accused *us* of being immoral profit slaves.

    And this includes all you soft-spined assholes who would take the stance of "Well, I'm not saying they're right, but maybe they have something, there are a lot of concerns right? What harm is there to letting the parents decide if they're uncomfortable?"

    Hope the truth burns, folks.

    1. Re:Not *entirely* news... by Kohath · · Score: 2

      Maybe you guys should think about this the next time someone tries to advance a hate campaign against Big-Whatever? Maybe, just maybe, everyone running these sorts of hate campaigns has a similar motive?

      The energy, food and beverage, agricultural, mining, banking, and manufacturing industries (and everyone else in the private sector except trial lawyers) could use a little fair-minded consideration.

    2. Re:Not *entirely* news... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      yeah, I don't want to reverse-discriminate against the big guy just because they're big and have done some other bad things (see signature for a somewhat less weighty example of this sentiment)

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    3. Re:Not *entirely* news... by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      a hate campaign against Big-Whatever? Maybe, just maybe, everyone running these sorts of hate campaigns has a similar motive?

      And maybe, just maybe, monkeys will fly out of my butt.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    4. Re:Not *entirely* news... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      The energy, food and beverage, agricultural, mining, banking, and manufacturing industries (and everyone else in the private sector except trial lawyers) could use a little fair-minded consideration.

      I agree!

      energy

      An industry that mines coal in often unsafe manner, destroying landscape and environment without proper mitigation, and ignores governmental regulations that were put on them only because they were shown not to be able to carry out their business in a way that did not endanger workers and the environment. Oil spills and their environmental damages are just a bonus. Besides, the Deepwater Horizon disaster was so long ago... Show some "fair-minded consideration".

      mining

      See energy above for coal. For other minerals, leach mining often pollutes local groundwater and in many cases, the companies "go bankrupt" after the minerals have gone and after having absorbed the profits for years,while sticking the government (read, you and I) with the cleanup costs.

      banking

      Yeah! They were just making money. God knows they did nothing to contribute to the largest financial disaster in seventy-five years. And they've been picked on so much...

      I agree that food and beverage, agriculture, and manufacturing industries have occasionally gotten a bum rap (although the latter not so much recently, since they learned to live withing OSHA regs and stopped killing so many workers), but I'm sure that the quest for profit makes sure that there are sins that need to be atoned for (I'll let others cover them). But for the other industries you mention, fair-minded consideration shows that their rapacious, sociopathic behavior to an extent that is breath-taking makes their bad reputation completely justified.

      And, you know what? If these companies did not behave so badly, trial lawyers wouldn't be nearly as wealthy as they are.

      --
      That is all.
    5. Re:Not *entirely* news... by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Thanks for illustrating the difference between fair-minded consideration and generalized hate-mongering and demonization.

      There are at least two sides to every issue. Fair-minded consideration considers them both. Activist demonization does not.

    6. Re:Not *entirely* news... by wikdwarlock · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Wakefield's asshole-ishness is wholly separate from others in the medical field. In fact, there may still be one or two people in the medical industry who are immoral profit slaves. Just because he was a Very Bad Person, doesn't mean that others can't also be categorized that way.

      --

      "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    7. Re:Not *entirely* news... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well there's an easy answer. File charges of murder(going by our lovely canuck version) against him, I think somewhere in neighborhood of 800-900 should do it.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    8. Re:Not *entirely* news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are advocating that children are now property of the State, to be treated by whatever means State sanctioned medical monopolies find profitable? Because there has never been a case of medical treatments causing harm, right?

    9. Re:Not *entirely* news... by RamblerRandy · · Score: 1

      Many of us in the Autism community (I'm Dx as Aspergers not too long ago) have been saying since the beginning that it was fraudulent as I've read time and time again that it was a false claim. I've always used a line: "it was a doctor that worked for a lawyer that sued pharmaceutical companies that started it" to explain the whole immunization / Autism fallacy.

      Of course the majority of the public still believes that you can catch "a human virus" from a computer virus. And some even believe that rainbows in sprinkler water is proof of pollution.

      --
      I'll think of a really good SIG just before I die.
  13. Blame to go around. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This "researcher" is the total blame. Anyone who believed some soft-core porn chick with fake boobs over their physicians kind of had it coming - it's a tragedy that their children paid the price for their stupidity.

    1. Re:Blame to go around. by Myopic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But... but.. but... she has "mommy intuition"! How could "medical science" ever trump that?

    2. Re:Blame to go around. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you Darwin...

    3. Re:Blame to go around. by spydum · · Score: 1

      Though I think you are being sarcastic, talk to the majority of the people practicing medicine and they will agree that when speaking to most level-headed mothers, their intuition is often better than the doctors opinion after seeing the patient for 5-30 minutes.

      Medical science is absolutely a wonderful thing, but keep in mind it's not perfect, especially when it comes to children.

  14. This goes to show by ticketswapz · · Score: 0

    The link between so-called scientific research and making a dollar. I had a girl on Facebook post about some "HIV breakthrough" that could "cure" HIV / AIDS. I hated to rain on her parade but I posted previous stories from 2010 where there were "HIV breakthroughs" that proved to not work or be false, basically calling for investment in exchange to continue the research.

    --
    ticketswapz.com - Buy, Sell, Trade Sporting Event and Concert Tickets
  15. The whole idea is flawed. by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is one issue I have had since the beginning.
    Assume it were true.
    Assume all the autism is caused by vaccination (it can't be worse than that).
    The autism percentage in the US in 2007 was 0.7%.
    The chance a kid dies from diseases he could have been vaccinated against is higher, dunno the exact number and am to lazy to look'em up.
    So these people think it's worse to have a kid with autism than to lose your child to a disease? Are these people insane?

    --
    Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    1. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      If people avoided all childhood vaccinations, that is. The mortality rate of many of the diseases we vaccinate against is higher than 0.7%, and before we started vaccinating against them, they were common diseases.

      People don't think about that, though, just like they say that people survived just fine before kids wore bike helmets and ladders had stickers telling you which rung not to go past.

    2. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by vlm · · Score: 2

      The chance a kid dies from diseases he could have been vaccinated against is higher, dunno the exact number and am to lazy to look'em up.

      Humorously your lazyness led you to have it completely backwards. The rate for measles, once diagnosed, is something less than 0.3%. But that requires a measles diagnosis. You can't discuss the death rate due to measles in the USA because its only single digits yearly for the entire developed western world. Its like debating the public health implications of protecting childrens heads from meteorite impacts. Before the measles vaccine, about as many kids died of measles as died of lightning every year, roughly. Compared to falls, car accidents, etc, its pretty much a rounding error.

      So these people think it's worse to have a kid with autism than to lose your child to a disease? Are these people insane?

      Hmm... Around a 1 in 100 chance of lifetime debilitating illness vs far less than 1 in 10000000 chance of death. IF the vaccine caused autism at 1% rates (which it seems it does not), they would be far better off taking their chances without the vaccine.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by Warskull · · Score: 1

      Problem is a lot of these diseases were unheard of due to the vaccinations, thus people forget about them and see them as a non-threat. They don't think chance X vs chance Y, they think "Autism, I don't want my kid to have that" and don't think about the diseases the vaccinations prevent. You want people to start thinking that vaccinations are mandatory again, you need prominent news story about how horrible these diseases are and how sad it is to watch kids die from them.

    4. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by clonan · · Score: 2

      Check your numbers again. The actual infection rate was estimated at 90% of people had measles by the age of 15.

      Now you are right that around 1 in 100 suffer the severe form, encephalitis, develops. Thoes who don't die are typically left with neurological issues. Please not that this is roughly the same rate as autism.

      So IF 100% of autism cases were caused by the vaccine, then and only then would it be a toss-up as to safer with or without the vaccine. Plus you also have Mumps and Rubella that are also prevented...

    5. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by mibe · · Score: 3, Informative

      The mortality rate for measles in otherwise healthy people in developed countries is 0.3% (yeah, I can Wikipedia too). This disregards several things: complications from measles in adults, the immunocompromised patient (measles has a 30% mortality rate in AIDS patients), and every single other disease we have vaccines for. Aggregate lifetime risk (not just mortality - see polio) from all of these diseases is far, far greater - and for a greater number of people - than any of the stated autism risk numbers. Moreover, the overwhelming body of evidence has shown that the stated autism risk numbers are, in fact, non-existent.

    6. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by wiredog · · Score: 1

      How many of these people have seen these diseases? I'm 45 and I've never seen smallpox, measles, or most other childhood diseases. I had chicken pox when I was 5 or 6, before the vaccine. That's it. I have seen kids with autism (and, like many slashdotters, probably fall somewhere in the "autism spectrum"). So which do you think most parents (in the West) are afraid of? The disease that none of them have ever seen, or the disorder that many of then have seen?

    7. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      Are these people insane?

      I've done some rigorous testing and the conclusion I've come up with is . . Yes, completely and utterly batshit.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    8. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by blueg3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't discuss the death rate due to measles in the USA because its only single digits yearly for the entire developed western world.

      One might think vaccination had something to do with that.

    9. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spectrum disorder That is all.

    10. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know! Autism = alive, but with difficulty. Which, to this atheist who can't demonstrate/bother to posit the existence of an after/pre-life - sounds like a good deal! Hell, prove it causes autism in 1% of the population, but prevents widespread outbreaks of measles, mumps, rubella, etc...etc... I mean hell, there is this thing called "children's tylenol" and a kid could OD on it pretty easily (Tylenol has a really close margin of "effective dose" to LD-50 - and its freaking over the counter...)

      Heck, say it was the definitive and only cause of autism - that'd even help us since we'd know what caused it! (lets forget that a bunch of high-functioning autistic people feel they benefit from the way they process the world..)

      People seem to have a short historical memory these days. Now adays you can basically give birth to a half term baby, bring it to term outside the womb, prevent it from getting diseases that wiped out millions of people in the past, feed it full of fat and sugar its whole life, fix the resultant diabetes and manage the resultant heart failure..

      We have turned a corner where for all intents and purposes, you have to try to die*. If 1% of people getting autism was actually the cost of that, we'd be doing pretty ok...

      * It always confused me in Les Miserables that after Cosette got married, Jean Val Jean basically went "well fuck it, time to wait to die" and then did in pretty short order... thought it was maybe a literary device - and then it occurred to me. In 18/19th Century Paris without competent medical intervention, healthy diet, vaccination, public hygiene and sanitation -- if you reached a certain age, left the windows open and pulled a brian wilson, you were going to die in short order.

      for 99% of human history we had to *fight* to stay alive... and now we lose it a little if there is a snowball chance in hell that omg, we all survive but some of us have more local connections in our brain instead of intra-brain connections, are a bit overwelmed by change and physical stimuli and are sometimes really hard to care for... BUT ARE ALIVE

      But MMR doesn't cause autism, so this is all moot...

    11. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If "God" takes your child to "heaven" early, that's easier for people to deal with than the fear of a child depending on you 24-7 for the rest of his life, long after your dreams of being retired and him taking care of you. But nobody wants to say that out loud because autism is the new depression; show any inclination towards not wanting to raise an autistic kid and you're lower than dirt.

    12. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised at all if the rationalization went thus:
      "If my kid dies to disease, at least I won't have to deal with him getting out of control because of autism."

      It's a horrifying idea to think about, but there are parents who discover that actual parenting is insanely hard compared to whatever they thought it was like in their mind's eye, so much so that some want to give away the kids and return to relative freedom-- never mind that they're quite literally chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

      It's almost as if we ought to consider requiring licenses for those who create children without considering the costs to themselves, their children, and their communities. (It won't fly, of course, so the best course of option is probably education...)

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    13. Re:The whole idea is flawed. by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      The chance of infection is greatly lowered by the fact that we vaccinate against it. There is even a threshold effect: The chance of even getting in contact with the disease is lowered greatly by the fact that most people are vaccinated. This helps to bring it down to that 0.3%
      To get the numbers correctly you should take the disease-caused infant mortality rate of a country that doesn't vaccinate on a large scale. These numbers are hard to get, due to offset because not all children are registered in these countries and thus the reasons for their deaths aren't registered. This wouldn't skew the results if the chance of infection wouldn't be larger in these demographics.
      The correct numbers may even be unavailable to researchers and I am quite sure they are unavailable to me.
      In hindsight: laziness (albeit true) was not the largest hurdle here.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  16. She's STILL SAYING IT! by Ieshan · · Score: 5, Informative

    Famously, Jenny McCarthy went on Oprah and told parents not to vaccinate their kids. Many doctors and parents LISTENED! If you read the articles, you'll see that as a result children died of easily preventable childhood diseases because parents were too scared to get the proper vaccinations.

    She's STILL DOING IT! She still says the same thing. Article in Huffington Post, dated TWO DAYS AGO:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenny-mccarthy/vaccine-autism-debate_b_806857.html


    I know children regress after vaccination because it happened to my own son. Why aren't there any tests out there on the safety of how vaccines are administered in the real world, six at a time? Why have only 2 of the 36 shots our kids receive been looked at for their relationship to autism? Why hasn't anyone ever studied completely non-vaccinated children to understand their autism rate?

    These missing safety studies are causing many parents to approach vaccines with moderation. Why do other first world countries give children so many fewer vaccines than we do? What if a parent used the vaccine schedule of Denmark, Norway, Japan or Finland -- countries that give one-third the shots we do (12 shots vs. 36 in the U.S.)? Vaccines save lives, but might be harming some children -- is moderation such a terrible idea?

    This debate won't end because of one dubious reporter's allegations. I have never met stronger women than the moms of children with autism. Last week, this hoopla made us a little stronger, and even more determined to fight for the truth about what's happening to our kids.

    Amazing.

    1. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by sorak · · Score: 1

      Sad. Scientists may have to perform those tests and waste countless dollars, just to make people stop taking medical advise from a woman who is best known for posing in playboy, and picking her nose on tv.

    2. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the questions she's asking (assuming they haven't been answered) are valid questions.

      The autism rate in non-vaccinated kids vs. the autism rate in vaccinated kids would be a real useful statistic to know, wouldn't it?

      If it's true that only 2 vaccines have been examined for a link to autism, that may be a valid research opportunity.

      Interestingly, it appears to me that both studies could be done quite inexpensively. Just find a bunch of kids who have autism and look at their vaccination history, and run analysis.

    3. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by MadKeithV · · Score: 0

      Waste of time. If that ever happens, the same batshit crew will claim big pharma rigged the new tests, and will be impossible to convince otherwise because they weren't the first to claim rigging.

    4. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by tpheiska · · Score: 1

      What if a parent used the vaccine schedule of Denmark, Norway, Japan or Finland -- countries that give one-third the shots we do (12 shots vs. 36 in the U.S.)?

      I'm disgusted that the name of my country is used by her in this context. That being said, we have an ongoing public debate considering the swine flu vaccination in Finland. The whole thing seemed really suspicious to me, and I am by no means against vaccination. I want to make this absolutely clear, I strongly support vaccinating children.

      After people were vaccinated in Finland there were many cases of narcolepsy. The doctors and authorities have confirmed that there exists a connection on the times when narcolepsy became more common and the vaccinations began. No correlation other than the dates has been found. However, there are interesting connections between the pharmaceutical companies and health authorities. The people that have recommended the vaccination program are also being paid by the pharma companies to do research. I find this extremely interesting considering that the vaccinations were rushed to the public with a schedule that is much faster than in normal vaccination programs. I myself did not get the vaccination. I really don't want to give ammunition to the antivaxxers but I still wonder if corruption and incompeteness prevailed in the vaccination program.

      --
      "wahts woring iwth my tyoping?"
    5. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you propose is exactly the wrong way to design a study. On top of that, no ethics board will approve a study where you won't vaccinate kids just to appease an idiot woman's desire for "science to be done".

    6. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Rogerborg · · Score: 2

      I seem to remember party girl McCartney being caught smoking and drinking while knocked up. Surely that should have toughened her womb-booger up and made him more resistant to the autism virusbacteriacurse?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Spad · · Score: 1

      Not only that, it's pretty much exactly what Andrew Wakefield did; find a bunch of kids with autism, look for common factors, conclude that any common factors must be the cause of autism.

    8. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that the current North American parents - possibly even grandparents - are at least a generation removed from polio, measles, mumps, and whooping cough. Outside the US, in places where new parents and teenagers have suffered through those infant diseases, they are all to happy to get the vaccinations in. Cost to the various governments or NGOs providing the vaccinations are the only limiting factor - the public knows all too well how these diseases can maim (permanent scars, infertility, damaged organs) and kill.

    9. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by thesilverfox06 · · Score: 2

      And the sadder part is, we still don't know what actually DOES cause autism. Perhaps if the researchers were allowed to spend more time on that rather than proving over and over again that the cause isn't vaccines, we would be a lot further along.

    10. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Zironic · · Score: 1

      I suspect the reason that different countries give different numbers of vaccines is because they have different numbers of native diseases?

    11. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Yeah, conspiracy theorists tend to render their rantings unfalsifiable; add in a few other logical fallacies to boot.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    12. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What if a parent used the vaccine schedule of Denmark, Norway, Japan or Finland -- countries that give one-third the shots we do (12 shots vs. 36 in the U.S.)?

      That's funny because EXACTLY DUE TO THIS TYPE OF STUPID REASONING, Japan split up the MMR vaccine into three separate vaccines given over a period of three years, and their autism rates just keep going up regardless. There's not even correlation between vaccination rates and autism, much less causation.

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    13. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "'stuck" into autism", huh? Have any of them considered the possibility that the immediate reaction they saw in their children was caused by the traumatic experience of the doctors visit and being jabbed by a needle rather than what was injected into them?

    14. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Last week, this hoopla made us a little stronger, and even more determined to fight for the truth about what's happening to our kids.

      Funny, when I read this I skipped the word "for". And suddenly it made sense.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    15. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Cwix · · Score: 1

      Womb-booger..

      Can you use that phrase only during the first trimester, or can it be applied to any unborn child?

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    16. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by sorak · · Score: 1

      And don't forget that the supposed Autism epidemic may be nothing more than a consequence of changes in how autism is diagnosed, and an increase in the number of autistic people who actually receive treatment.

    17. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by MoriT · · Score: 1

      It could also be the product of people having children at older ages. Older fathers are associated with a higher risk of autism. Of course, that doesn't leave you anyone to sue, so it's not nearly so popular.

    18. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Why have only 2 of the 36 shots our kids receive been looked at for their relationship to autism?

      Well, that would be fun.

      If you do 20 trials on 20 different vaccines, I would expect that around 1 of them would show a link at the 95% level of confidence due to chance alone.

      That's the problem with statistics. If you keep running trials you'll find all the evidence you want, and so will the other side.

      You can't just do data mash-ups and see what sticks. That was what that big article a few weeks ago was all about.

    19. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 1

      If you think that the "mercury" in the vaccines was the reason the "viruses were dead" then you're already too far behind the facts to provide a useful comment in this discussion.

    20. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why hasn't anyone ever studied completely non-vaccinated children to understand their autism rate?

      Well, probably because completely non-vaccinated children don't often live long enough to be studied long-term. This is especially true in third world countries where preventable diseases kill hundreds of thousands of children, autistic or not, every year.

    21. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Even in the US, when they stopped using thimerasol as a preservative, autism rates when up, not down.

      Did that stop the parents from blaming the vaccine? No, they just switched to the alternate theory that it's giving multiple vaccines at the same time that causes autism.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    22. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Phillip2 · · Score: 1

      It isn't sad that tests need to be performed. They do. We need to fill the holes in our understanding. We need to investigate any potential route for harm.

      None of this is relavant though. In the case of MMR, the evidence of a link between the vaccine and autism was always very weak. I have to admit that even a cynical old lag has been surprised that even this was fraudelent. But the keypoint remains, the evidence NEVER was strong. It was at best a suggestion. And since then, all the tests have been done, the data has been replicated (or rather not), the claims about mechanisms were investigated and turned out to be wrong.

      Wakefield is a problem; we can criticise him for his fraud, for not caring about the damage his claims caused. But there are many, many journalists who couldn't be bothered to check up, who interviewed and investigated without a basic understanding of science, without a basis understanding of medicine and still though that they were good enough, qualified enough to tell the public about it. MMR is a sad tell of the malicious, fraudulent and the stupid. And in the middle of all of this is the general public, lost, confused and incapable of making an informed choice because they can't get access to good information.

      In a civilized world, we'd burn the lot of them.

    23. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      What if a parent used the vaccine schedule of Denmark, Norway, Japan or Finland -- countries that give one-third the shots we do (12 shots vs. 36 in the U.S.)?

      Methinks the 12 vs 36 is a comparison of apples and oranges. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule, the USA has 14 vaccines in its standard schedule, while Finland has 12. Actually Finland's schedule nowadays includes HPV also, making it 13 (our elder daughter got it). Some of those, of course, involve shots repeated at different ages, but the number of such shots does not greatly differ between countries. Moreover, the measles, mumps, and rubella are still available as a combined shot in Finland, while they are counted separately in that table. So the difference in the number of vaccinations is probably 1, and certainly not 24. The difference in the number of actual shots will vary by region, but is probably small (maybe even negative).

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    24. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I'm not an anti-vax person generally either. The thing that really got me though was when they wanted to give my daughter a vaccine for Chicken Pox. I mean seriously, Chicken Pox, the relatively harmless childhood illness. In our state it's mandatory to recieve it if the kid hasn't contracted it already by the time they attend school.

      Our doctor explained that it was made mandatory so that insurance companies would pay for it. And the vaccine was developed because a bunch of kids in Chicago or somewhere died when they got staph infections because their parents didn't keep the sores clean.

      If the vaccine actually provided immunity I'd be for it even if it seems like a frivolous disease to make a vaccine for. But the vaccine is actually highly likely to cause your child to have a weak case of Chicken Pox. So weak in fact that your child won't develop the proper antibodies to fend it off in the future. I know at least a half dozen kids that recieved the vaccine and then immediately got sick with Chicken Pox. Then later in the year they all got a second case of it for real from kids at school. And I know at least one child that ended up with Shingles as a result of the vaccine. The vaccine also requires booster shots each of which can make you sick all over again.

      So in summary we go from having a disease, Chicken Pox, that has serious side affects maybe 1% of the time. And less than 5% of people who get it will have a second case of it. Now with the vaccine we have a similiar rate of serious side affects, but instead of running that risk once in a lifetime they'll be getting two or three shots at it. And if the vaccine does actually reduce the prevalence of Chicken Pox in general it means that more people will make it to adulthood without real immunity to it. And of course adulthood is when Chicken Pox goes from being a laughable childhood illness to a deadly disease. So our pathetic Chicken Pox vaccine could actually be helping to set us up for a Chicken Pox epidemic among adults.

    25. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by tpheiska · · Score: 1

      The medical math behind vaccinations is actually pretty simple. I had a discussion about this some time ago with a friend of mine who was at med school. The details are hazy but basically all the things you consider are

      -Number of people affected without vaccination
      -Number of people affected due to vaccination
      -Severity of affection without vaccination
      -Severity of affection with vaccination

      Then apply conditional propabilities and factor in the costs & human factors for each case. Simple, really. The health care officials will easily kill 5 people with vaccinations if it prevents 5 000 000 people to get sick with a 0.1% chance of dying. What makes it more complicated is the herd immunity factor and human nature. It's easy to game the system by not getting vaccinated and relying on the herd immunity. I'm not a doctor so I can't judge the pros and cons of chicken pox vaccination but I do believe that the system is not foolproof, people actually make mistakes and companies try to make profits with vaccines. Also, parent hysteria is a factor that must be considered.

      --
      "wahts woring iwth my tyoping?"
    26. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by sorak · · Score: 1

      I can agree that, in a perfect world, everything would be tested, very well. We would know every possible consequence of using ginseng, in any dose, for example. But, the reason I say it is sad is that we have more productive avenues to explore, but we are having to choose between the avenue that is more likely to lead to new preventative measures and the one that will make us feel good.

      To run these tests would be the medical equivalent of security theater.

    27. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by sorak · · Score: 1

      It could also be the product of people having children at older ages. Older fathers are associated with a higher risk of autism.

      I always thought it was the age of the mother that mattered...Are you sure about that?

    28. Re:She's STILL SAYING IT! by MoriT · · Score: 1

      The study I saw said only the father's age mattered: http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/mental/articles/2006/09/05/autism_study_finds_fathers_age_a_factor/ but a more recent study, http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/170/9/1118.abstract says that they both contribute. Early studies were complicated by examining maternal age and not controlling for paternal age, which is correlated. It appears to have since shaken out that both contribute.

      In addition, one newer study suggests a U-shaped relation between paternal age and autism. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2010.02223.x/full) Older fathers also appear to change the gender balance of the disorder, which supports the idea that a separate mechanism might be at play.

      Ultimately, I believe we will discover the causes of autism, not a single cause.

  17. Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Burnhard · · Score: 2

    Is this actual fraud, or the kind of confirmation bias that goes on in science all the time? In other words, did this guy actually really believe his own results and invest accordingly, or did he fabricate his results in order to profit from the fabrication knowing it was a fabrication? There's a subtle but important difference.

    1. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Informative

      He made investments based on the result of a study before he performed it, cherry-picked study participants, and then falsified results.

    2. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by digitig · · Score: 1

      Well, it looks as if he falsified the data, with the dates reported in his paper different from those in the medical records. That sounds like more than confirmation bias to me.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    3. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Burnhard · · Score: 2

      Oh well, I guess that confirms it.

    4. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      Not quite, if you look at the timeline. He was receiving payments from a MMR=autism lawyer before he performed his study (such as it was), and he *investigated* the possibility of profiting off the research results, but he didn't actually incorporate the company until just after the Lancet paper was published.

      I think Burnhard has a good point. Doctors and scientists form companies to profit from their discoveries all the time -- so long as the science is good, the results are published in open literature, and funding sources are disclosed, this is considered acceptable. In this case the science was truly bad and the funding sources were murky if not hidden outright, but I think it's still possible that Wakefield truly believed there was a connection between MMR and autism, and was lured by the money and potential fame into serious scientific misconduct.

      The key lies in his hospital's "dismissal letter", not really a dismissal at all, which gave him a year with pay to work on reproducing his findings. He seems to have ignored this opportunity and used it to score "the man is trying to shut me down" points, which is pretty damning, but doesn't necessarily prove "mens rea".

    5. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      Deer's other report indicates that Wakefield and/or his co-authors changed the medical histories of the patients when writing the study (no patient on the study went without having part of their diagnosis altered between original medical notes and the published results).

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    6. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      Deer's other report indicates that Wakefield and/or his co-authors changed the medical histories of the patients when writing the study

      Yep, but the examples I've seen of that have been shifting dates and adding details -- stuff that could be deliberate fraud with intent to deceive, but could also be a misguided attempt to "enhance" a connection that's already clear to you.

      It's a subtle distinction, I know, and requires us to get into Wakefield's personal head games, but it's the same sort of thing as distinguishing between murder and manslaughter. Just by way of example.

    7. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is actual fraud. The medical records of the patients in the study aren't consistent with the study. Several of the children showed signs of developmental problems before the vaccinations which was not reported in the study. It was a knowing fabrication.

    8. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda like global warming. Yah thats right they could even get the name right.

    9. Re:Actual fraud, or confirmation bias? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Yes, it could just be that he just didn't have a scientific mindset. I'm sure he wouldn't be the first medical researcher who saw something in the data and went out to prove it existed, rather than investigate its existence. However changing one's data, at all, is such an important part of medical ethics that I find it hard to believe that he didn't know what he was doing was at least frowned upon.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  18. It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The thrust of arguments seems to be that he intended fraud and a quick buck right from the start, or that he has been slandered and all will come out as he claimed once the dust settles.

    But a more likely scenario is that he was convinced of the link between MMR and autism from the very early preliminary studies, so much so that he reached out for financial support and to the lawyers, expecting to not only prevent autism cases, but secondarily to make a buck from the evil pharma in the course of making them pay for their dastardly greedy mistakes. Revenge is all the sweeter when the revengee has to pay you for their mistake.

    And in the end, so addicted was he to that end and his premature conclusion, that he deluded himself past the point where he could ever admit he had been wrong. When his data came out incompatible with his preconceived notion, he did not take a deep breath, count to ten, and reconsider his original position. He fudged the data to match his "reality" and passed the point of no return.

    Yes, he deserves to be slapped around, but to say he planned this fraud right from the beginning is too facile an argument.

    1. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by microTodd · · Score: 1

      Thanks for this post. You literally caused me to rethink my position.

      see?

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    2. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by Tim+C · · Score: 2

      While you are indeed correct about the tabloid media and commercial news shows, this report is in the BMJ which caters to an entirely different readership. I find it incredibly unlikely that they are attempting to create panic amongst their readership to boost sales.

      When his data came out incompatible with his preconceived notion, he did not take a deep breath, count to ten, and reconsider his original position. He fudged the data to match his "reality" and passed the point of no return.

      And in so doing set in motion a chain of events that caused people to die. He deserves rather more than to be "slapped around", and should be facing a criminal trial.

    3. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative
      I don't share your benefit of a doubt. The Lancet has retracted the original study. Their reasons:
      1. He was paid by a lawyer working for the families of the 12 subject children to find a link between MMR and Autism. This financial incentive was not disclosed.
      2. The data was altered or made up. The study said that symptoms shortly appeared after the vaccine was given. In some cases, that was not the truth. In some cases, the symptoms appeared before the vaccine. In at least one case, symptoms appeared six months after the vaccine. In both cases, medical records were altered to conform to the premise.

      These were done before publishing the original study not after. I have doubts about where he had true convictions about his research.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    4. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for this post. You literally caused me to rethink my position.

      wh.. wha? people do that? I'm guessing you are not an American? We don't do that silly-nanny liberal flip-floppin' here!

    5. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      I agree and I made this same point. However, it's worth pointing out that his original scientific focus was on the connection between measles and *bowel disease*. He only got on to the autism thing after he was approached by a lawyer for a vaccines=autism group and offered a £150/hour retainer. At this point his science shifted toward a three-way connection between vaccine, autism, and bowel disease, and later to autism alone.

      So while I agree that Wakefield may truly have believed his theory was correct, and he may not have intended fraud per se, the quick bucks started *before* the bad science, and clearly shaped his scientific process.

    6. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      None of your points changes the possibility of him having reached his conclusion before being paid by the lawyers or before doing his own study.

    7. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      It's possible that he believed that MMR was linked to Autism but on what basis would he have formed that belief? Before his study there were no other studies that hinted at the possibility of a link. He himself did not publish any other studies nor did anyone else. Also the fact that medical records were altered to conform to the premise makes me doubt he was firm in his convictions. I would think it is more a sign of fraud to alter such records rather than strong convictions.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    8. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, fraud after he started. I argue not that he didn't commit fraud, but that he didn't wake up one morning and say "Hey! (1) Fraud (2) Profit!" and then search for a way to commit the fraud. Rather, he started with a preconceived notion, evidence failed to back him up, by then it was too late and his mind was made up and he had commitments to the lawyers, too late to back down, so he then committed fraud.

    9. Re:It's too easy to say he was a fraudster by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      No one can know what is in the mind of another. But based on his actions, he was paid to find a link. He altered records to support his presumption. He released the study. Did he ever truly believe his presumption? We can't know. But his lack of credibility for me plummetted the moment he decided to alter the records.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  19. well... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    At least no one was hurt. White collar crimes only hurt insurance companies right?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165229009493675.html

    1. Re:well... by khr · · Score: 1

      At least no one was hurt. White collar crimes only hurt insurance companies right?

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165229009493675.html

      Maybe there should be a new category, in addition to "white collar" there could be "black stethescope" crimes.

  20. The trap of a simple world view by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I like the media. Everything is simple in the media. They can side with a certain viewpoint for a few years, implicitly calling everyone who doesn't agree, an idiot, selecting their guests and questions to only maintain the illusion of being neutral, while having a clear bias.

    Then suddenly, something happens, new information becomes apparent and an endless stream of "it turns out that..." articles flood the public. Everything we proclaimed bad is now good, everything good, is now bad. Panic, people, for you were caught off guard again. The savior was the devil himself.

    Media can repeatedly turn 180 on themselves and sell panic non-stop. They can even fabricate an issue where none exists, then as we recover, claim the opposite so we panic again. Really nice for ratings, and really suitable for pushing hidden agendas. Here's my world view: People's motives are complex. People's moral compass has more than two poles. Sometimes, good people becomes self deluded. Sometimes, bad people get things right. Sometimes, good studies fudge data, and sometimes, there is commercial interests behind a genuinely good cause.

    Am I saying Andrew Wakefield was "right" and vaccines are "bad"? No. Am I saying get yourself all the vaccine shots, and all the seasonal flu ones, always because they are "good"? No. Because the world is just more complex than that. Some vaccines have helped us rid of serious conditions, and ultimately made and keep making the world a better place, while other are just peddled for profit with little or no scientific support behind them. I'm not going into details, because I'm not trying to sell you a certain viewpoint on this "scandal" as correct.

    I'm only trying to bring recognition that in the media cycle we're in now, Wakefield is an evil incarnate who never even believed his own studies, who never ever had a honest thought in his life, and vaccines are as harmless as drinking purified water. You'll see one-sided "fact checks". You'll see journalist display clear dislike of Wakefield while pretending to interview him. You'll see them reiterate how wrong everyone always was.

    Until the next cycle.

    1. Re:The trap of a simple world view by sonamchauhan · · Score: 2

      > I'm not going into details, because I'm not trying to sell you a certain viewpoint on this "scandal" as correct.

      Your post is thoughtful and well expressed. I'd love to get your viewpoints on the vaccine issue.

    2. Re:The trap of a simple world view by microTodd · · Score: 1

      Thanks for this post. You literally caused me to rethink my position.

      see?

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    3. Re:The trap of a simple world view by Burnhard · · Score: 2

      It's called Publication Bias. Null results are rarely published. They're just not that interesting (to many).

    4. Re:The trap of a simple world view by StabnSteer · · Score: 1

      Sounds like Orwell's 1984 - "We are at war with Eurasia. We've always been at war with Eurasia..." (even though we were at war with Eastasia last week...)

    5. Re:The trap of a simple world view by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      This is the British Medical Journal we're talking about here, not a part of the mass media.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    6. Re:The trap of a simple world view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sound a lot like Global Cooling, oops, it's now Global Warming, oops, that's become Climate Change, ...

    7. Re:The trap of a simple world view by netchipguy · · Score: 1

      Well put, sir.

    8. Re:The trap of a simple world view by bartwol · · Score: 1

      But your analysis, your decision-making, should not be done in the context of the "media cycle", but instead, by preponderance of the evidence (well-formed studies, well-qualified facts).

      You present the major rights and wrongs in this case (and others) as being ambiguous. They are, but only if you choose to be informed by that media cycle of which you speak. Why would you choose, in your final analysis, to be informed by the media cycle? Why do you frame the decisions as in any way having to be made within the context of misinformation instead of well-qualified information?

      I suspect that, for whatever reason, your own truth is best rationalized in the context of the media cycle, or, that you somehow benefit by influencing people within the context of their own ignorance (and susceptibility to weak rationalizations such as you present here). That would certainly explain your well-phrased appeal for us to be understanding of, well, nonsense. But you've simply presented a foolish context within which to make important decisions that are fairly easily and reasonably resolved within the context of good information.

      The ambiguities you affirm are, for the most part, only affirmed within the context of misinformation and a willingness to trust untrustworthy sources. The issues are much clearer than you suggest, which is telling of your own brand of bluster.

  21. The sad part is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that it won't make a difference. Those who believe in a link between autism and vaccines will continue to do so, no matter what evidence to the contrary is offered.

    1. Re:The sad part is... by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      How many children will die or suffer lifelong complications from preventable diseases because their parents got scared of vaccines by his unethical greed?

    2. Re:The sad part is... by ozzee · · Score: 1

      How many children will die or suffer lifelong complications from preventable diseases because their parents got scared of vaccines by his unethical greed?

      Probably very few if not none.

  22. I hope so... by Gunkerty+Jeb · · Score: 1

    I hope this is illegal.

  23. he wasn't the only one with profit based motives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    his motives were profit based, just like the vaccine companies motives for distributing more vaccines are profit based.

  24. Re:why did BMJ pay Brian Deer to attack Wakefield by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 2

    That's like asking why people believe the earth is round. Big oil is paying billions to convince us that the world is round! We must fight this fraud!

    But seriously folks... Dr. Wakefield's conclusion was wrong. His conclusion brought back diseases almost eradicated by vaccinations. Jenny McCarthy uses her "experience" over REAMS and VOLUMES of studies that PROVE NO LINK. I don't care if the BMJ gave Brian Deer a BJ to 'attack' Wakefield. That doesn't make Wakefield right. It doesn't make him more evil. I am so sick of these celebretards getting a bully pulpit to push their horseshit agendas (Oprah, I'm looking at you). STOP listening to famous people who don't know any better than you! (I'm speaking of the royal you in this case, I mean.)

    I don't mind a little skepticism... but FFS, why in Jehovah's name are we giving anything like this even a MICROSECOND of our attention when vaccinations are SAFE and WORK? It boggles the mind. Wakefield has poisoned the well... it's going to take DECADES to undo what he and Jenny and Oprah have wrought... All because someone has an autistic kid and reads on the internet that MMR caused it. IT MUST BE TRUE!

    --
    It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
  25. Re:he wasn't the only one with profit based motive by grub · · Score: 1


    Pharmaceutical companies make relatively little money with vaccines. They make far more money on chronic disease and continuous medication.

    The world is far better off with vaccines and "big pharma" than without.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  26. Tom Insel quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Big Pharma is corrupt." -- Tom Insel, director of NIMH

    1. Re:Tom Insel quote by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      This isn't Big Pharma. This is little startup pharma, plus lawyers. Read the article.

  27. This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 5, Informative

    As the parent of an autistic child I always thought this one was bullshit. I witnessed my sons development. My family was convinced it was a result of the vaccines. He was normal and suddenly he stopped all the babble. Started staring into space for long periods of time. I think I'm the only one who noticed it happening before the vaccines. Its like no one looked before that. At least now when someone tells me that was the cause I can at least tell them it was a scam.

    1. Re:This is really great news for me by vlm · · Score: 1

      As the parent of an autistic child I always thought this one was bullshit. I witnessed my sons development. My family was convinced it was a result of the vaccines. He was normal and suddenly he stopped all the babble. Started staring into space for long periods of time. I think I'm the only one who noticed it happening before the vaccines. Its like no one looked before that. At least now when someone tells me that was the cause I can at least tell them it was a scam.

      I'm convinced its coincidental that it occurs at the same stage of development, more or less. The observable symptoms of the brain damage that results from bad vaccination outcomes is vaguely remotely superficially similar to the observable symptoms of whatever is going on in the brains of autistic kids. That proves, uh, nothing at all, not that one must cause the other or be related to the other. Its of about the same quality of scientific theory as making the observation that extreme lead poisoning and extreme mercury poisoning cause similar symptoms, therefore they must be the same thing, and to heck with the chemist and nuclear physicist conspiracy to claim mercury and lead atoms are different, my Aristotelian "earth humours" vital force theory must be correct.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:This is really great news for me by Antisyzygy · · Score: 2

      My wife has an autistic brother so my heart goes out to you. Funny thing about autistic people is that they have unusual but correct insight sometimes. I tend to think that there is a little savant in most of them.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    3. Re:This is really great news for me by outsider007 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Still, if you could do it all over, wouldn't you skip the vaccines?

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    4. Re:This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 1

      Its not brain damage at least in my opinion. I think he has a whole new set of instincts or motivations.

    5. Re:This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 4, Informative

      nope. Vaccines are proven to help stop the plagues that have caused a lot more suffering. I don't think its in anyway environmental other than our as a species sudden change of lifestyle.

    6. Re:This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My free association of this statement reminds me of this joke.

      Cal was out driving in the country, seeing how his new car handled the curvy roads at high speeds. As he rounded a corner, one of his tires blew.

      When he got out of the car to change the tire, he noticed that he had stopped in front of the state mental asylum. There was also a man sitting on the brick wall in front of the facility.

      The driver went about his business, not paying any attention to the guy on the fence. He first took his tire iron and jack out of the car, and got the car jacked up. Then, he removed the hubcap. Next, he removed the six lug nuts, and placed them in the hubcap for safekeeping.

      About this time, the guy on the fence decided to start a conversation. This startled the driver, and he reeled around quickly, knocking over the hubcap, and the lug nuts fell into the sewer drain.

      The driver gets angry with the guy on the fence, shouting, "Now look what you made me do. Now I'm going to have to walk to town to buy some new lug nuts. Just go back inside and leave me be."

      The guy on the fence says, "Why don't you just take one lug nut from each of your other three wheels, and use them on this one. That should hold it steady enough for you to drive the car to the auto parts store."

      The driver asks, "That's a brilliant idea...then why are you here?"

      The guy on the fence replies, "I'm just crazy, not stupid."

      http://www.ajokeaday.com/Clasificacion.asp?ID=47&Pagina=6#ixzz1Aq02HhUZ

    7. Re:This is really great news for me by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      As the parent of a boy at 14-months and the brother of a parent of a child with a severe disorder somewhere on the relevant spectrum, the kind of regression you describe scares the crap out of me (he's fine...for now). At what age did you first notice signs? Do you know the average age of detection? Two Caucasian parents? Obviously there is nothing I can say to reduce your grief, and I almost apologize for asking these questions.

    8. Re:This is really great news for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nothing like preying upon a suffering person by peddling cargo cult thinking. If I have a stroke while walking to the store for some milk, I suppose you'll be asking "if you could do it all over, wouldn't you give up milk?"

      Vaccines are given at various stages in a child's development. Chances are one of them is likely to happen around the time that autism develops. For that matter, one of them is probably going to happen around the time a child manages to get toilet training down, but we don't see a lot in the media about vaccines causing toilet training.

    9. Re:This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 1

      I feel no grief. Don't get me wrong but Ryan is difficult. But he is doing well. Last weekend I played the wii with him and won intentionally. He told me "I anger". That is a major breakthrough. He is in there. He just doesn't feel the need to talk about it. Instead he will talk about what he sees and what he is noticing. What scares me and could be a cause for grief is his climbing. He climbs without fear. He doesn't have coordination problems. He sees the world perhaps too much of it to make sense to him. he takes apart things has hidden caches of batteries and screw drivers. He is wonderful. He is high functioning and a little farther into the spectrum than a aspie. Ryan just has to learn what some of us are born with. As to your questions about any signs of autism. Look up a list of milestones and check your child. If you see something wrong your probably wrong about that. Worry when they don't start to talk or point at things at two. But I would suggest if you suspect something get your child checked. Oh and avoid the organization "autism speaks" they are scare mongering scammers imo.

    10. Re:This is really great news for me by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Thanks. No specific concerns/worries today, just a lot of fear from reading the media. He's ahead on most milestones, behind on a few others, but in general seems really sharp. The physical normative graphs seem based on obsolete information (he is always above 90th percentile on height and weight, but I often see larger children), so I also worry that the milestone lists are wrong. I guess my biggest concern is that his rate of progress will change or reverse.

    11. Re:This is really great news for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if he want's his kid to die.

    12. Re:This is really great news for me by openfrog · · Score: 1

      My free association of this statement reminds me of this joke.

      Cal was out driving in the country (...) "I'm just crazy, not stupid."

      What a wonderful story! I would call this one storytelling rather than just a joke Thanks for your insightful as well as lighthearted posts on this topic, Revek. I hope that many parents with an autistic child read you. You bring compassion to the conversation just when it is needed.

    13. Re:This is really great news for me by Revek · · Score: 1

      doubt is good. In this more so. They don't know so any wild ass stab will get some consideration.
      http://iautistic.com/ This guy has some good ideas and links.
      http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/index.html Several pdf files from the land of the fee
      http://pediatrics.about.com/od/growthanddevelopment/Growth_and_Development.htm

      Remember the google is your friend. but it also may want to kill you

    14. Re:This is really great news for me by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

      Still, if you could do it all over, wouldn't you skip the vaccines?

      So he could be autistic and dead? What kind of bullshit logic is that?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    15. Re:This is really great news for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And risk ending up with a dead kid instead of an autistic one?

    16. Re:This is really great news for me by Rumtis · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: These opinions are my own. Take them for what they are worth.
      As a parent of a relatively high functioning autistic 10 year old...

      I worried about what I could control (ie. He got the vaccinations. That was something I could control).
      Age I noticed the signs: We had a good idea at 3.5 years old. 20-20 hindsight, we could have gone as early as 3. (But how can you tell if it's autism or just slow development?)
      Average age of detection: Getting earlier as time has gone on. No actual idea, but between 2 and 3 at the earliest if I were to guess.
      Two caucasian parents: For us, yes.

      As for the GP comment about "a little savant in all of them". I attribute that to the ability to focus all there attention one one specific thing (in order to try to block out the rest). One example was that my son learned about all the Windows operating systems (back to version 1.01). For some reason he picked that as ran with it for about six months. Now if I could just channel that concentration... :)

      Anyway, like I said, he's pretty high functioning, but YMMV depending on severity. Thing is, don't go looking for symptoms. Just have the ability to recognize them if they are there. That's probably the best advice I could give.

    17. Re:This is really great news for me by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      If I have a stroke while walking to the store for some milk, I suppose you'll be asking "if you could do it all over, wouldn't you give up milk?"

      Three videos on how excess animal product consumption along with eating refined and processed foods is related to heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, and dementia:
      http://www.ravediet.com/preview.html
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPiR9VcuVWw
      http://ahealthykitchen.com/nutrition/dr-michael-klaper/

      So yes, eating dairy products may indeed lead to strokes... Still, 5% or so of strokes from burst blood vessels (as opposed to blocked ones) might be prevented with arterial plaque from dairy etc., so you want to skip the added salt, too, to help keep blood pressure down into your 90s. See Dr. Joel Fuhrman and "Eat to Live" for more details.

      If we had to choose eating well (and other lifestyle issues) vs. the pharmaceutical industry, we'd be better off eating well. See:
          http://www.bluezones.com/

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    18. Re:This is really great news for me by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Please see my other comments to this thread, including mentioning Mark Hyman's work and others. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  28. It's my fault by glyphi · · Score: 1

    I talked him into it because I own a bullwhip factory. Now I should start to cash in big time - but I won't because I'm going to give them away.

  29. Conscience ? by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Having a bank account full of money is enough for many people. As long as they are not confronted by their victim, and the victim stays an anonymous number, people will mostly not feel any remorse.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  30. public execution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Time for a public execution.

  31. He's still free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is it this scumbag isn't in prison? I have known for years that this study was discredited, but the fact that it was actually a scam makes me furious.

    1. Re:He's still free? by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 1

      Yeah, for fraud. I spent a ton of money on vaccinations hoping to catch autism. Now I guess I'll just have to practice playing the piano and learning how to count cards the old fashioned slow way. :(

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
  32. Re:Doesn't Jenny McCarthy look stupid now by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2

    Oh please. If she even hears about this, she'll just attribute it to a conspiracy against him.

  33. Re:why did BMJ pay Brian Deer to attack Wakefield by digitig · · Score: 1

    why did the BMJ pay Brian Deer to attack Wakefield

    Points out that this is nothing new (true, but not widely known which is a good reason for a popularising item). And states "I strongly suspect that if there was enough evidence to make the fraud accusations stick that it would have been brought up at the GMC hearing" -- but as far as I can see that wasn't the subject of the GMC hearing, which was about Wakefield's unauthorised medical experimentation on infants..

    Who funded Brian Deer

    Doesn't seem to understand how freelancers can get paid if they are not on the staff.

    Brian Deer’s Conflict of Interests

    Claims that Deer had a conflict of interest and tha the BMJ didn't do proper checking of that, but doesn't say what the conflict of interest was or point to any evidence.

    Dr Wakefield's Submission to the UK Press Complaints Commission

    Wakefield's complain to the Press Complaints Commision, which the PCC suspended pending the GMC hearing and which Wakefield did not pursue after the GMC struck him off the medical register.

    Andrew, is that you?

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  34. The man should be tried, convicted, and by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

    executed. Seriously.

  35. The problem with that by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    The problem with taking Picard's "solutions" too seriously, is that in his case it was other people's problems, and they were even forbidden to get too involved in them.

    Sorta like how if a US battleship lands in the middle of a rapidly escalating trade dispute between the islands of East Bumfuckistand and West Bumfuckistan, the captain isn't supposed to drag the USA into it or do his own gunboat diplomacy. The _correct_ answer there is to get the fuck out as quick as possible, and not end up being the guy who started WW3. Let them sort it out or let the UN and diplomats sort it out, your job as a captain just isn't to do diplomacy.

    Star Trek does give its captains a lot more room to, basically, be immature big kids playing soldiers, but that just makes it even less of a model to take in a real life situation.

    In this case however it's not someone else's problem. The autism scare scam has caused thousands of deaths and a resurgence in diseases that were previously just about extinct in the western world, and it caused those problems in our own nations. They're not the problem of some other nation (or planet in ST's case), they're _our_ problems. We _are_ the ones who get to sort out the mess in our own backyard.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:The problem with that by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Let them sort it out or let the UN and diplomats sort it out, your job as a captain just isn't to do diplomacy.

      Star Trek does give its captains a lot more room to, basically, be immature big kids playing soldiers, but that just makes it even less of a model to take in a real life situation.

      Not exactly. From my recollection, in the original series (TOS), Kirk did a lot of "gunboat diplomacy", and later in TNG, Picard did a fair amount of diplomacy (with less of the "gunboat" part) too. In Star Trek, I think Roddenberry's idea was not that Starfleet was a purely military force, but a combination of military and diplomatic and humanitarian, as needed by the situation.

      After all, think of all the episodes where the Enterprise hosted some type of summit, or transported diplomats, or had to deal with some brewing conflict and couldn't wait for the professional diplomats to arrive. Here on Earth, the US Navy does no such thing; its mission is purely military, and if diplomats need to travel to another country for diplomatic work, they take a commercial jet, not a military transport. You can also see this in the design of the Enterprises: they aren't military ships, as they have far too many creature comforts and not enough armor and weapons, and Picard's ship even has families on board.

      So occasional diplomatic dealings was, I believe, one of the normal duties of a Starfleet Captain. Of course, this really makes sense in the context of the story: it's set in outer space, where even with warp drive, the distance between inhabited worlds is great, and requires a large and expensive ship. There's no such thing as a quick jet to get from world to world, so the fastest and nicest ships are ones owned by interplanetary governments (as they have the funds to build giant ships and power them with antimatter fuel), and given a multi-role mission.

  36. Re:Heath Tragedy by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    (Story)
    I got my vaccine last week too. Now all I want to do with my life, ever, is study Heath bars. Did you know that the word for toffee might come from a creole word? Anyway, my Heath bars are all nicely lined up, all 310 of them, because that is the temperature you have to heat molasses at to make toffee.

    I am also developing an encoding language based on the 3 dimensional position of the holes in aerated sponge toffee. I believe it has applications to the theory of data storage on 3d hard drives.

    Now what was that about the side effects of the vaccine again?
    (/Story)

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  37. foreach $SCARE cui bono ? by ballpoint · · Score: 2

    SARS, DDT, H1N5, CFC, SO2, WMD, CAGW, Y2K, MMR VAX ... the list goes on and on and on.

    --
    Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
  38. Sturgeon's Law by KingAlanI · · Score: 2

    90% of *everything* is crap - I keep on seeing evidence for Sturgeon's point. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law)

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  39. OMG save the children by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Should we not spare 40% of children from DYING so that 1% doesn't get autism. That is easily worth the trade off.

    Try saying that when it's your child, asshole.

    Ok. Saving the lives of 40% of children is worth the risk of giving 1% of them autism including my own child. Easily worth the trade off. Your child isn't any more special than anyone else. Neither are any children of mine.

    Some people are just going to be unlucky. Taking stupid risks like not vaccinating because someone hypothesizes (fraudulently as it turns out) that there might be a link between a particular vaccine and autism merely trades a theoretical risk for another well established risk. Don't get vaccinated and you might not get measles or mumps but some percentage of the population absolutely will. It's a roll of the dice. Taking a hypothetical risk over a well proven one is retarded.

    Vaccines save lives. This is not in dispute. EVERY vaccine has side effects in at least some portion of the population. So does every medicine and medical treatment known to man. Unproven side effects in a few are not sufficient reason to not use a medication and certainly not reason to not be vaccinated.

    1. Re:OMG save the children by superflippy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My husband's cousin had a bad reaction to the polio vaccine and is in a wheelchair because of it. But I still vaccinated my children.

      If you actually read the info sheet the nurse gives you with each vaccine, you'll see there are risks. Some small percentage of the population has a bad reaction to some vaccines, and the info sheets describe what they are and what symptoms to watch for. I weighed the risks and decided in favor of vaccination.

      --
      Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
    2. Re:OMG save the children by burnttoy · · Score: 1

      I have done the same with my boy. Me and the missus weighed up the risks and it was a no brainer. He's 3 months and already had plenty of vaccinations. TB being one oft he most important for now. I knew several older people who had polio as children when I was a child and it radically and not pleasantly altered their lives.

      MMR jabs will come soon (at around a year old) and I have NO hesitation in taking these...

      OK, I hesitate for just a few seconds. I'll admit that every time I see someone approach him with a needle my instinctive reaction is to punch them in the back of the neck.

      I suspect this is true of many people and maybe, in some way, when parents/guardians here about a correlative link they can use that to justify not sticking poor little Charlie with a needle.

      If I could vaccinate him against many other vile diseases I would (assuming a very low risk of side effects). For example... cancer causing virus and bacteria, strep, all forms of clap, HIV, malaria, food poisoning... I mean... why not?

      --
      Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
    3. Re:OMG save the children by ozzee · · Score: 0

      ... Easily worth the trade off. ...

      The question is not whether vaccination should be abolished, the question is whether the vaccination regime should be changed to avoid complications.

      Perhaps we can introduce a vaccination regime where we gradually vaccinate for one disease at at time rather than the cocktail done now.

      Perhaps we can wait to vaccinate until signs of autism should be apparent.

      There also seems to be newer tools for diagnosing autism, perhaps we can study these before and after vaccinations.

      I'd like to know if these types of alternatives have been considered rather than this black/white vaccinate/not rant.

    4. Re:OMG save the children by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Why do you even consider a correlation between vaccinations and autism has any credibility? There is a stronger corelation between walking and autism than vaccinations and autism.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    5. Re:OMG save the children by lingon · · Score: 1

      Another poster has pointed out that this has already been tested in Japan (they stopped using the MMR vaccine and vaccinated for each disease separately with some time inbetween), with no effect on the level of autism in children. Other countries (such as mine) have fewer shots than the US (probably because we have a lot fever endemic diseases) but we still have the same levels of autism. Oh, and of course, all credible research (and there has been a lot since the 90s because of this Wakefield scandal) clearly shows that there is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine (or vaccinations in general, for that matter).

    6. Re:OMG save the children by Nutria · · Score: 1

      every time I see someone approach him with a needle my instinctive reaction is to punch them in the back of the neck.

      I suspect this is true of many people

      Really? Having a person in a sufficiently-medical-looking-outfit in a building that I know is a "doctor place" approach my kids with needles doesn't bother me at all.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
  40. a bit too cynical, but I see your point by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    I figure celebrities and average Joes are both about as likely to misunderstand things outside their fields of expertise, it's just that celebrities have a larger platform to talk about things they don't understand. Celebrities are people too. :P

    I'm thinking more of celebrities' political opinions than autism/vaccine BS or $cientology, but that fit too.

    Also different fields of expertise - conversely, doctors shouldn't and don't tell the likes of Oprah how to be an effective entertainer. Of course, some get self-righteous about the importance of their own field, evne with some justification.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  41. Re:Heath Tragedy by mrjb · · Score: 1

    Now what was that about the side effects of the vaccine again?

    I think you're faking it. Had you really been affected by a vaccine and developed autism, you'd have mentioned Celcius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin. You'd also have memorized that sugar (sucrose) melts at 186C, 367F, 459.15K.

    Also, had you really developed autism, you'd definitely fail at spotting a sense of humour and take things literally instead.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  42. This is pretty much evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prime example of evolution, bad parents kill off springs.

  43. Most probably by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They either overlooked it not understanding that those were symptom, or blinded themselves to reality.

  44. Let me give you number idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Try saying that when it's your child, asshole."

    Hey idiot, if you and your significant other had 100 children, and you refused a vaccine protecting you against a illness with 40% chance of death, because the vaccine could make 1% autistic, that means you would rather risk 40 of your children to die rather than have 1 out of 100 autistic.

    With such a line of reasoning as yours, I hope you stay childless, if you don#t already have children.

  45. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!2222!22! by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

    I got a tiger and put it in my backyard and have yet to be hit by a meteorite. Therefore having a tiger in your yard prevents being hit by meteorites.

    --
    It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  46. Re:Heath Tragedy by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Oh my.

    Well, since I carefully put tags to indicate that it was all a joke, if you only think I'm faking that's a little worrisome! I mostly started doing the tag thing when the mods started missing some of my double-barreled jokes. There's new research though that there are other a-social continuum spreads than autism. I just took a try at a spelling-pedant / rain-man mash-up.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  47. Wow he's certainly got them worried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All this fuss over one study? Amazing. Methinks they are afraid of something. By the By, anyone know how statistically insignificant the deaths were from either M M or R before the creation of the "mmr vaccine" yeah it was pretty low. A lot lower than the 1 in 150 that now land on the ASD spectrum.

  48. Jenny McCarthy Body Count by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  49. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!2222!22! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    I got a tiger and put it in my backyard and have yet to be hit by a meteorite. Therefore having a tiger in your yard prevents being hit by meteorites.

    And therefore, my tiger repelling rock (I haven't seen a tiger around me since I acquired it) can be surreptitiously placed in someone's yard to cause them to be hit by meteorites!

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  50. well... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    It's not like it killed anyone... oh wait...

  51. EVERYONE'S chlidren by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    This "researcher" is the total blame. Anyone who believed some soft-core porn chick with fake boobs over their physicians kind of had it coming - it's a tragedy that their children paid the price for their stupidity.

    Yes, that's a tragedy. Children shouldn't (but so often do) pay the consequences for their parent's failings.

    But it goes way beyond that. The children of parents who aren't stupid and listened to their doctors over Jenny McMommySense are still paying the price for the ones who were that stupid.

    Because they were too young to be vaccinated, because they had an allergy, or simply because vaccines are not and never were intended to be 100% immunity for those who get them. Instead, they're intended to make it difficult for a disease to gain a foothold and spread.

    Simply by creating larger pockets of the population in which the disease can get a foothold these idiots are potentially hurting EVERYONE's children. And that is simply not acceptable. Fuck Wakefield who should be in prison, fuck Jenny McIdiot, fuck all the parents who have no idea what horrors they are unleashing on themselves and the non-idiot portion of society.

    "Thank you Darwin" some AC says? Darwin is laughing at you -- by idly standing by saying "Thank you Darwin" thinking only those too dumb to vaccinate will be weeded out, you're proving yourself unfit as your children could be affected too. By failing to counter this idiocy long ago, we as a society have been proving ourselves unfit. I can only hope this result will be the first step towards succeeding, but frankly I don't see how this is going to convince any anti-vaxxer. They'll just see it as another smear job and cover-up of THE TRUTH.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  52. Re:Noooooooooo!!!!!!2222!22! by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

    Ah, well played

    --
    It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  53. Seems justified by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    to charge him with crimes against humanity - though I doubt anyone has the guts to do it (including the EU). But it just might stop the next snake-oiler clothed in pseudoscience from practicing Death by Lucre.

  54. Not a Nash equilibrium by Nick+Ives · · Score: 1

    A Nash equilibrium occurs when every player knows the equilibrium strategies of the other players and no player can benefit by changing their strategy whilst other players keep theirs unchanged.

    In this circumstance, each player can look at the others and ask "are they being vaccinated?". If they are, it makes sense to not get the vaccine and avoid any side effects. If all players choose the alternative strategy of not being vaccinated, it would then be possible for some players to improve their outcome by changing strategy and going for vaccination, thereby swapping the large risk of infection for the small risk of side effects.

    Thinking about this quickly, I think this shows that there isn't a stable equilibrium for this problem as whilst there is a majority of people being vaccinated the optimal strategy is to not get vaccinated but when herd immunity has disappeared the optimal strategy is to get the vaccine before being infected.

    --
    Nick
  55. Hindsight is 20-20 by mpapet · · Score: 2

    For *every* *single* I told you so post, I want to know how many had infants at the time of the peak of the hysteria or have infants now. The issue looks a whole lot different as a parent.

    In the U.S., there's a complicating factor. Vaccine manufacturers are generally shielded from liability. Where is the manufacturer's disincentive for distributing deadly product?

    Not every step forward in medical anything turns out necessarily good. Read up on Pharma's invasion of Psychiatry sometime.

    Finally, the choice with my kid was old-fashioned single vaccines. More shots, but essentially the same product that was given to me as a kid. For reasons I really don't get, there was a great deal of resistance to this method by a couple of pediatricians. We just found a pediatrician that had it on hand and did one at a time with time between each one.

    My wife buys into this stuff regularly, so my position was not immediately accepted. But she got to the point pretty quickly where one at a time was a good compromise.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Hindsight is 20-20 by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      My kid, born in 2001, got the normal vaccines on the normal schedule. Why? Because she had good pediatricians and I trusted them. In Oregon, you're not allowed to enroll your child in school unless they have been vaccinated.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Hindsight is 20-20 by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Where is the manufacturer's disincentive for distributing deadly product?

      The problem with vaccines is that there's so little incentive for companies to make them at all. Add even the chance of a disincentive and they'll just chuck the whole business rather than lose money. And there will be no vaccines.

      Of course, you could just add a huge premium to the price to pay for lawyers and liability insurance. You want to quadruple the price and give all the extra money to lawyers and insurance companies?

    3. Re:Hindsight is 20-20 by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Vaccine manufacturers are normally shielded from liability because there's a special court soley to hear vaccine liability claims, and a special fund they pay into in order to settle those claims. It's not that they're immune from liability, it's that their liability has been formalised and systematised outside of normal tort law.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  56. Re:Why Japan banned MMR by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

    Well, the Mail is well known for its medical recommendations...

    http://kill-or-cure.heroku.com/about

  57. Re:Why Japan banned MMR by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · · Score: 1

    Oops - forgot about this one too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTu7GLfrmUI

  58. Re:cynical by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

    I would say that even "experts" in the field should not be blindly listened to. There is a reason that people should get second and third opinions on major procedures, and in most fields, there are controversies where even the experts are on different sides of the debates.

    The problem is that if even experts can be mistaken, what chance does the average person have of being able to tell the correct experts from the incorrect or even more so from the outright frauds who are attempting to profit from misinformation.

    One big example I can think of are the mattress ads claiming that your mattresses weight doubles in 7 years from dust and mites. As this is being reported as fact from a firm that specializes in mattresses, an average person may well believe it instead of using their common sense and realizing that the mattress firm would profit from spreading such lies.

  59. Re:he wasn't the only one with profit based motive by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Yeah, last year's flu vaccine bonanza world-wide sales due to all that fear marketing only reaped something like 6 billion dollars in sales split between a half dozen small medical companies. Just in time for Christmas bonuses.

    But yeah, that IS actually relatively little money by comparison to all other combined drug sales. Amazing.

    Though, I don't know about the world being better off with big pharma than without. People are fat and stupid as a direct result of food/drug companies and their policies. As with most things championed by Slashdotters; the idea is great, but the reality and execution are pretty damned corrupt.

    -FL

  60. Re:why did BMJ pay Brian Deer to attack Wakefield by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    FFS, why in Jehovah's name are we giving anything like this even a MICROSECOND of our attention when vaccinations are SAFE and WORK?

    Because that's a blanket statement which isn't true all of the time, and you know it. There is corruption, greed and ineptness in the world, and to pretend that there isn't simply because we like the fundamental IDEA of vaccines, is foolish. Injecting mercury and formaldehyde and other questionable contaminants is a BAD idea even if it does happen to be done in conjunction with the execution of an otherwise GOOD idea.

    In a black & white universe, it's easy to make choices. But our universe is filled with colors and shades, and that is why we give this subject our attention. It's how we learn.

    People taking one side with great vehemence without considering the other really doesn't help.

    -FL

  61. Re:Doesn't Jenny McCarthy look stupid now by fl_litig8r · · Score: 1

    Oh please. If she even hears about this, she'll just attribute it to a conspiracy against him.

    She has heard about it and you're not too far off-base with her reaction. Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenny-mccarthy/vaccine-autism-debate_b_806857.html

  62. Do we get to prersecute you? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

    Do we get to persecute you if your child falls off a bicycle, is injured playing high school football, or is hit by a car crossing the street? All of these have proven to harm and even kill children. In fact in the case of the chicken pox vaccine, a child that is allowed to play high school football is MORE likely to be killed by it than a child that has not been immunized for chicken pox.

    I have seen many an abusive parent. From psychological abuse, to neglect, to drugging them up for medical conditions that don't exist, to literally pimping them out in the sex trade. Not one of those people refused vaccinations. The only people that I have ever seen refuse vaccinations were people who have looked at the information, and made a consiouse decision to not get the vaccines based off that information. One can argue whether the information they got was good or bad, and one can argue whether the parents interpreted the information they got well, or poorly. Claiming that they were neglectful is intellectually dishonest, and it is encouraging parent NOT to look at the available information, but to just do what everyone else is doing. Mobs have many heads but no brains.

    1. Re:Do we get to prersecute you? by thijsh · · Score: 1

      You might argue it is OK for a parent to let their 8 year old drive their car, after all it's their car and their child... But I disagree because their is a good chance the 8 year old crashes and not only injures himself but others (possibly me or my children). The vaccine is the same, when enough people endanger themselves they endanger the whole species. It's not just yourself and your children you should worry about.

    2. Re:Do we get to prersecute you? by Belial6 · · Score: 0

      There is a big difference between not letting a child do something in a public place, and forcing them to do something in private.

      Just like telling your wife that she is not allowed to have sex in public places is totally different that forcing her to do it in a private place.

  63. Death penalty by heson · · Score: 1

    I am normally against death penalty, but in cases like this (endangering millions for profit) I think it might not be harsh enough.

  64. Sounds familiar ... by Jerry · · Score: 1

    When I read this : the business was to be launched off the back of the vaccine scare, diagnosing a purported—and still unsubstantiated—“new syndrome.” , I thought that approach to research sounded familiar.

    Then it hit me. While browsing through the CRU FOIA files I recalled reading the "EURO4M_DoW_v2.doc" which outlined a set of "deliverables and milestones" for climate data (Figure B.1.3b. GANTT diagram for Deliverables and Milestones, on page 35, from:
    Project acronym: EURO4M
    Project full title: European Reanalysis and Observations for Monitoring
    Grant agreement no.: 242093
    Date of preparation of Annex I (latest version): 9 November 2009
    ).

    The document discussed in advance who would get how much of the grant money.

    The autism scam worked the same way. In advance of their "theory" becoming practice, the autism scammers had already worked out how the pie would be sliced: Wakefield would get 37%, and the father of child 10 22.2%. The venture capitalist would get 18%, Pounder 11.7%, and O’Leary 11.1%.

    In the CRU EURO4M document the "List of Beneficiaries" (their words, not mine) include:
    * Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute
    * Met Office
    * University Rovira i Virgili
    * National Meteorological Administration
    * Meteo Swiss
    * Deutscher Wetterdienst
    * Swedish Meteorological and Hydrological Institute
    *University of East Anglia (Climatic Research Unit)
    *Météo France

    One such set of CRU "Deliverables", out of around 50 areas of categorized "research", were:
    "
    * gridded high-resolution daily precipitation dataset for the Alpine region and analysis of daily to decadal precipitation variations (D1.1, M1.1, D1.2);
    * European window of the GPCC dataset available for the EURO4M (D1.3);
    * extended and updated ENSEMBLES gridded daily dataset for Europe (D1.4, M1.2, D1.5);
    * new UEA/CRU data products for Potential Evapotranspiration (PET) and PDSI (D1.6);
    * new satellite-based gridded datasets based on MVIRI (D1.7, M1.3, D1.8), MSG (D1.9, D1.10), Land-SAF (D1.11);
    * datasets for the Mediterranean (D1.12, D1.13, M1.4);
    * proposal for additional data rescue activities required (D1.14).
    "

    Now, as a retired programmer I can understand how one can write a proposal for creating software and give specific "deliverables" and milestone dates for product delivery and sign-off. But, having done research in anti-Cancer metabolites in graduate school, I found it amazing that someone could write a grant proposal for Global Warming (a.k.a Climate Change) and promise a delivery date for data which would support the AGW hypothesis. Nature is NOT so pliable.

    The comparisons between this scam and the AGW scam go even farther. Knowing the unethical, if not illegal, nature of their plans, the parties agreed to keep the relevant information secret, even from Freedom Of Information Actions. Except in the autism case, ... when Richard Thomas, at the time the UK’s information commissioner, traveled to the college’s offices and later served a formal notice, did they release the documents into my hands. . When Phil Jones got a FOIA request from Steve McIntyre, the UK Information Office went to the CRU and conspired with Jones to keep the AGW data secret. Of course, one has to ask that if the data did support the theory of AGW why would they want to keep it secret? McIntyre has proven to be a much better statistician than anyone at the CRU. IF the data showed what the CRU was claiming it showed, McIntyre could only punctuate their claims. Instead, McIntyre punctured their claims by showing how they fudged the data and, as the "HARRY_README.TXT" file revealed, created some temperature data sets for the 1960-2000 range Ex nihilo, a truly remarkable creation!

    Contrary to the autism or CRU publications, for at least two centuries the standard protocol when publishing in science journals is that the scientist ALSO includes the exa

    --

    Running with Linux for over 20 years!

  65. The link has been proven in court! by superdreamkilla · · Score: 1

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html http://www.911truth.ch/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2012 Secondly, no "correlative study" is needed. This is physiology. There is a direct pathway by which mercury and aluminum damage the brain.

    1. Re:The link has been proven in court! by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      See my other posts for this article with links to this and others: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  66. Re:he wasn't the only one with profit based motive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The world is far better off with vaccines and "big pharma" than without." *Citation needed*

  67. test. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    test.

  68. Drew Pickles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drew Pickles likes this topic!

  69. The "study" ... by rogerz · · Score: 2

    ... whether fraudulent or not, was based on 12 subjects. The innumerate media and public share some of the blame for not being highly skeptical about a study involving a 75% of the blame, but our government schools are not doing their job either.

    --
    If humans are mostly water, and beer is mostly water, then humans must be mostly beer.
    1. Re:The "study" ... by rogerz · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I mangled that (by not paying attention to html rules):

      The innumerate media and public share some of the blame for not being highly skeptical about a study involving a less-than-1% phenomenon based on such a small sample. This bastard deserved most of the blame, but our government schools are not doing their job either.

      --
      If humans are mostly water, and beer is mostly water, then humans must be mostly beer.
  70. Here is how in-effective MMR is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/

    and that is just one reference, there are others.

  71. Oh noooooosss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.northeastern.edu/news/stories/2011/01/deth.html

    A doctor that supports both vaccination, provided they don't contain aluminum or mercury, and supports Dr. Wakefield!!! Quick, ignorant Slash Idiots, find some way to discredit him.

  72. Re:cynical by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    True, though those are separate issues from nonexperts speaking on a topic.
    Yes, there's potential conflict of interest when those most knowledgeable about the industry have a personal stake in it

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  73. Be careful who you judge and for what... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    ... The problem is that once you fuck up herd immunity, you've fucked it up for everyone, including the very young, the very old, and those with compromised immune systems. ... In short, and pardon my directness, but speaking as a parent, fuck those who don't get the shots for themselves and their kids right in their entitled, self-centred, arrogant asses. They and their spawn should be given the choice to get them, and then airdropped on a remote island with all the rest of the assholes who think that the chance of their precious little snowflake having a disability is more important than the life of other people's so they can't screw it up for the rest of us.

    In short, and pardon my directness, but speaking as a parent, what about those who don't breastfeed their children for at least two years and beyond (WHO advised), and who don't get enough vitamin D, and who don't read about nutrition and "disease proof" their children?
        http://www.amazon.com/Disease-Proof-Your-Child-Feeding-Right/dp/0312338058
        http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
        http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/infantfeeding_recommendation/en/index.html

    And what about all those parents who spread disease by sending their children to day prisons so they can work, rather than homeschooling?
        http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/734486

    Not to mention the socio-psychological fallout:
        http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue.htm

    Should they and their "spawn" be airdropped on a remote island with all the rest of the "assholes" who think that the habit of feeding their precious little snowflake junkfood or putting them in school for convenience is more important than the life of other people's so they can't screw it up for the rest of us?

    How many people would that leave in the USA? 1%?

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Be careful who you judge and for what... by lingon · · Score: 1

      You're pulling straws out of your ass here. Vaccination is a proven and cheap way to minimize the risk of dying and/or lifelong handicaps from a bunch of diseases, the other things you list are either a normal part of society (sending kids to school) or things that the parents have less control over.

    2. Re:Be careful who you judge and for what... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Compulsory education in the USA was not "normal" until the last hundred years, and has a lot of negative side effects beyond being a major vector for communicable disease:
      http://www.thewaronkids.com/
      http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt

      Parents can choose to avoid compulsory school by homeschooling or using alternative schools or tutors with more flexibility, which is how most of humanity has been educated for most of time.

      You're also saying parents have less control over choosing to breastfeed for two years or choosing to feed their kids whole foods (vegetables, fruits, beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains, water, plus a few supplements like vitamin D) instead of junk? Less control than what? If so, why is this? Are their any commonalities between magic bullet thinking like with vaccines and other aspects of our society that relate in a refusal to invest the time and effort it takes for true health both as individuals and as societies building healthy infrastructures? Such as: http://www.bluezones.com/

      I'm not saying these things are not difficult to some degree -- more difficult than going with the mainstream profit-drive flow of US society, I'd agree. But, so what? If people are going to condemn others and suggest they be dumped on an island somewhere for posing a health risk, where do you draw the line?

      Also, is this the standard you use for vaccine safety and effectiveness?
      http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14401
      "Critics point out that CROs can come with built-in problems. Conflicts of interest can arise when CROs are paid royalties only after a drug is approved rather than being paid a set fee that is independent of how safe or effective the drug turns out to be. Problems can also arise because CROs know that favorable findings mean that research into a test drug will continue, and they may also believe that results that please the hiring corporation can lead to future contracts. "[C]ompanies know that the farther the compound moves through the research cycle, the more money they can raise," Nature reported. Merck spokesperson Amy Rose refused say how many trials Merck contracted to CROs or what percentage of the Gardasil subjects these contractors recruited in the Third World. She also refused to specify how, or even if, the company oversees CROs."

      Have you given any of this any thought before? For a long time, neither had I...

      Anyway, the bottom line is that it is almost certain that the poster I replied to meant well with that comment. I'm just following through on the logic expressed there. You seem to think then that we should draw the line on "cheap" things? So, it's OK to feed kids junk and to send them to physical and mental disease factories because that is the cheap and conventional thing to do? Well, that's your right in the USA, I guess. But the original poster is suggesting rights be taken away for people for not submitting their children to essentially medical experiments with new vaccines some of which have had only limited trials in foreign countries by profit-making organizations with conflicts-of-interest -- and implies that is great parenting, but mentions nothing else about keeping kids healthy. So, anyway, again, if we are going to talk about exiling parents and their "spawn" for living differently than the mainstream who submits their children to day prison brainwashing, who feed their children a lot of junk food (obesity is a big problem in the USA), who can't be bothered to breastfeed for two years or more, and who without question inject their children with any stuff some companies in foreign nations tell us is "safe", then what should the standard be for exiling families for "bad" parenting and a wanton disregard for public health and safety?

      Actually, I'm starting to think th

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  74. Mark Hyman on Autism Breakthrough Discovery by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html
    Not to raise false hopes, but from there: "The causes of mitochondrial dysfunction are well known, specifically as it relates to metabolism and the brain, and I have documented them in my books "UtraMetabolism" and "The UltraMind Solution." They include environmental toxins (iv) -- mercury, lead and persistent organic pollutants(v) -- latent infections, gluten and allergens (which trigger inflammation) sugar and processed foods,(vi) a nutrient-depleted diet(vii) and nutritional deficiencies.(viii) These are all potentially treatable and reversible causes of mitochondrial dysfunction that have been clearly documented. I found all these problems in Jackson, and over a period of two years we slowly unraveled and treated the underlying causes of his energy loss which included gut inflammation, mercury, and nutrient deficiencies. Over time, the tests for his mitochondrial function and oxidative stress (as well as levels of inflammation and nutrient status) all normalized. When they became normal, so did Jackson. He went from full-blown regressive autism to a normal, bright beautiful six-year-old boy."

    If you do only one thing, check vitamin D:
        http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/autism/vit-D-theory-autism.shtml
        http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/another-autism-case-report.shtml

    Vaccines may still be involved in a couple of different ways, for kids who are having problems dealing with various heavy metals, where they may be struggling before, but the hevay metals or other issues with the vaccines pushed them over the edge (especially in a vitamin D deficient child, since vitamin D is used in creating glutathione, the brain's master antioxidant). One doctor being discredited doesn't prove that some vaccines can't have side effects in some especially sensitive individuals.

    A new way of eating that in six weeks your family would like as much as how you eat now:
        http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx
        http://www.amazon.com/Disease-Proof-Your-Child-Feeding-Right/dp/0312338058
    At the very least, you'll probably live longer on that plan to help your kid longer.

    We try to eat more that way, and take our vitamin D, and so on...

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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  75. Autism prevention/treatment research links... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1
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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Autism prevention/treatment research links... by Revek · · Score: 1

      Its all garbage to me. Even if there is a cure or some sort of prevenitve snake oil out there its to late for my son. His brain is working okay even if it is not normal for values of normal. Until someone comes up with a demonstrable cause its just useless speculation that may and probably will do more harm than good.
      Since you have went to the trouble to look at the subject find out where in our DNA the instincts are. You know fear of spiders falling and such. Most people don't need to be told to be scared of spiders my son plays with them. It was the first creature he ever paid attention to. Even if its not genetic that information would help find a solution.

    2. Re:Autism prevention/treatment research links... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Please see this post by another parent about how nutritional issues (dairy in that case) were the cause of autistic-seeming behavior:
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1947552&cid=34849468

      Also, while I'd agree that a lot of stuff that happens in the womb or the early years can't really be improved (short of Star Trek 24th century medicine we don't have), nutrition and vitamin D clearly can improve a lot of things, and not just for your son, but even in your own life, so you can take better care of your son for a long time. It is not natural for humans to get little sunlight exposure. It is not natural to eat processed and refined foods, or so much factory-farmed animal products (especially weird dairy). Neither is it normal to have so many heavy metals and other toxins in our vitamins, which *increase* the need for a better diet, when instead we have a worse one. Whether fixing all these issues can improve ASD, they certainly can help prevent (or in many cases reverse) heart disease, diabetes, cancer (prevention only mostly), arthritis, and other chronic diseases.

      Other links:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPiR9VcuVWw
      http://www.healthpromoting.com/Articles/articles/PleasureTrap.htm
      http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx
      http://www.drfuhrman.com/children/default.aspx

      Genetics do affect part of health and part of behavior. But the vast majority of health and behavior reflects the interaction of genes and environment, and you can effect the environment.

      Vaccines are a distraction in that sense, where even if they work to some extent, and even if they are safe to some extent, the focus on a "magic bullet" is like a permission slip for ignoring the big picture about wellness. Dr. Fuhrman's work is heavily based on science, so you can find thousands of studies he references in his works (more than anyone else probably).

      And here is other scientifically based advice on wellness:
      http://www.bluezones.com/

      Anyway, call it "garbage" if you want. But science more and more is telling us the same thing that old wisdom told us about health -- eat a diversity of mostly whole plant foods for health.

      Ask yourself, where have you gotten your nutritional and other health information? What conflict-of-interests or profit-making influences have been involved in shaping your opinions about what is "normal"?
      http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/11/the-subsidized-food-pyramid.html

      In general, if you read something like Dr. Fuhrman's advice on nutrition in its entirety, and use a basic supplement, plus others as he recommends like vitamin D, it is highly unlikey you would do "more harm than good".

      Doctor Hyman, a different doctor I linked to who suggests in addition to many other things, chelation. I'd agree chelation is risky. I'd pass on the chelation until trying everything else (and even then, adequate iodine might help a kid excrete heavy metals rather than using chelation). But making sure a kid is not eating processed foods and is eating more whole foods is almost certainly not going to hurt them (one could probably invent behavioral scenarios or monodiets where there could be issues, so I'm not saying there are not things to think about at all).

      Do you own research, since most doctors are clueless about chronic conditions.

      Even look into info for spiders:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachnophobia
      "The alternative view is that the dangers, such as from spiders, ar

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    3. Re:Autism prevention/treatment research links... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Sorry, "in our vitamins" should have been "in our environment".

      Although, there are problems with our vitamins too, like too much preformed vitamin A (which competes with vitamin D and may have other problems, since we are supposed to make it ourselves from plants).
          http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml

      Dr. Fuhrman says similar things too, about excess vitamin A and other things in vitamins.

      But, again, I meant to write in our environment, that a heavier toxic load requires a better diet, but our diet has gotten worse. But, as I reflect on that mistake, toxins in our vitamins may indeed add to that, too. :-(

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  76. Re:Hindsight is 20-20 (but research may be flawed) by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932134&cid=34740048
    http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1932134&cid=34740098

    Also, from:
        http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14401
    "Merck spokesperson Amy Rose refused say how many trials Merck contracted to CROs or what percentage of the Gardasil subjects these contractors recruited in the Third World. She also refused to specify how, or even if, the company oversees CROs. Many consumers assume that the FDA carefully monitors CROs. But the agency hobbled by under-funding, politicization, and dependence on industry fees has few resources to assess foreign trials and relies on drug companies. "

    On the point in your sig, and maybe a way to get better research by less conflict-of-interest in funding:
        http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/#comment-392

    On keeping people healthy for cheap:
        http://www.amazon.com/Disease-Proof-Your-Child-Feeding-Right/dp/0312338058
        http://lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi111.html
        http://www.iodine4health.com/
        http://www.ravediet.com/preview.html
        http://www.bluezones.com/

    But that's the problem -- there are no enormous profits in natural wellness; the only big profits are in palliation and treatment for sickness or random attempts at "magic bullet" wellness through phrama stuff.

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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  77. Most autism is from such things? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    Please see my other posts to this article, including these links and others:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html
    http://www.amazon.com/Disease-Proof-Your-Child-Feeding-Right/dp/0312338058
    http://www.ravediet.com/preview.html
    http://www.iodine4health.com/

    The first link suggests that pretty much all autism is related to various issues like you discovered in time (there are just a bunch of them from vitamin D deficiency, to iodine defiency, to lack of omega-3s, to dairy, to toxins of various sorts in processed foods or, presumably, vaccines). From there: "Most neurodevelopmental disorders have common roots. But looking at only one aspect of such conditions will not solve the problem of autism. Current autism research is based on an outdated approach -- one that is something like blind men examining the proverbial elephant. Each researcher works in his or her own silo examining different factors and coming to different conclusions. Research that integrates, synthesizes and examines all the data on causes and potential treatments is practically non-existent. The mitochondrial dysfunction identified in the JAMA study I've been talking about is ultimately only one downstream symptom of many upstream causes. Other researchers have found systemic inflammation,(ix) brain inflammation,(x) gut inflammation,(xi) elevated levels of toxins and metals, gluten and casein antibodies,(xii) nutrient deficiencies including omega-3 fats,(xiii) vitamin D,(xiv) zinc, and magnesium, and collections of metabolic dysfunction related to quirky genes that make it difficult to perform chemical reactions essential for health in the body such as methylation and sulfation.(xv)"

    The second and third links show why excessive dairy is pretty harmful for most people (even ignoring how most of the world is lactose intolerant). The fourth is something I'm just learning about at the moment (iodine deficiency, where dairy is often a primary source of iodine, so watch out for it without dairy or eating seaweed or supplementing).

    Your son is lucky to have you as his Dad. You might want to still monitor for the other health issues and take pro-active steps to "disease-proof" your family on a diet of mostly vegetables, fruits, and beans (and some nuts, seeds, and whole grains).

    As a four year old, my wife had surgeons open up her belly and take her guts out (and put them back) because they refused to listen to her mother who suggested she had a millk allergy (from an article she read) -- and it turned out, after all the trauma, yes it was an allergy to milk and lactose. Doctors (especially surgeons) seem to be trained to sound very confident even when they don't have a clue (especially about nutrition). Part of how it got that way, starting around 1910:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

    For down the road:
        http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
        http://www.holtgws.com/

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Most autism is from such things? by H0D_G · · Score: 1

      Posting a link to the Huffington Post on this issue doesn't help your case. the HuffPo is full of a large amount of health disinformation. When a site uses Jim Carrey as a medical columnist...

      --
      Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
    2. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      I really liked the video in your Huff Po link, because the kid in it is just like my son. Look how bored he looks, staring off into space. He doesn't look at his father or the camera, yet he's paying complete attention. And the warm, engaging, charismatic smile at the end. Might as well have been my kid.

      Even after we took our son off of dairy, my wife and I decided to proceed with behavioral therapy for him. The dietary change brought about good results, but we are greedy and want great results. :)

      We found a terrific practice that doesn't treat the kid, they train the parents (the kid doesn't go to half the appointments). The doctor and therapist taught us to systematically build his cognitive and social skills via directed play therapy. We knew we were doing the right thing for 2 reasons: First, he loved it. Every time the next building block came his way, he was so happy. He'd tell us days later how much fun he had at his appointment (at age 2).

      Secondly, by the end of the session, he was completely wiped. It drained everything he had. That told us that, despite how much fun he was having, he was not wired correctly to function as typically-developing kids function. But then when we reinforced it at home, it became easier and easier for him. We were rewiring him.

      So I 100% believe that the dairy allergy was the main culprit in my son's "autism", but I have to believe that that's not the end of the story. I truly believe that there is/was something else awry with him, but I have no idea what that might be.

      In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. He's a happy little guy now, and that's all that any parent can ask for.

      I feel sorry for your wife--that's a hell of a thing for a 4-year-old to go through. It seems like modern medicine is starting to pay a lot more attention now to food intolerances. Given the garbage that now passes for food, I'd say that can only be a good thing.

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    3. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Lots of stuff (good and bad) is posted there (along with discussion of good points and bad points). Ignore it all if you want. Other links:
          http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/new-harvard-paper-on-autism.shtml
          http://drhyman.com/why-current-thinking-about-autism-is-completely-wrong-470/

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    4. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      By the way, two counter links:
      http://open.salon.com/blog/rahul_k_parikh/2009/09/06/huffington_post_health_watch_mark_hymans_faux_autism_cure
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/09/dr_mark_hyman_mangles_autism_science_on-.php

      But, while I agree with the dangers of chelation (I think appropriate iodine supplementation might be safer and as effective), in general, I feel Mark Hyman is right about the big picture.

      The problem is that in the USA, dermatologists and cosmetics companies have scared everyone about being in the sun, which along with and indoors lifestyle have led to vitamin D deficiency (which is involved in dealing with heavy metals). And with the way the meat, dairy, and processed/refined food industries have captured the US FDA, we have a crazy food pyramid that contributes to most people in the USA getting about half their calories from animal products and about the other half from refined and processed foods, with less than 10% percent of calories from fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, and seeds. We need to turn that around so less than 10% of calories comes from animal product and refined/processed foods, and 90% of calories comes from whole plant foods.
      http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/11/the-subsidized-food-pyramid.html
      http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-the-food-pyramid-of-the-insane.html
      http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx

      Unfortunately, because of the "Pleasure Trap", people have a hard time breaking out of that bondage to deadly foods and thus come up with endless rationalizations for why they are not harming us:
      http://www.healthpromoting.com/Articles/articles/PleasureTrap.htm

      And we've been told for so long by so many people to avoid the sun (whether for health or energy), it's hard to think it is important. A little story about that is at the end of this:
      http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-october.shtml
      "Then, new priests of science and medicine, told the people the Sun God was only a star, one of trillions, nothing special. Great temples called hospitals and research institutes arose, which admitted only filtered sunlight and where the people offered sacrifices to the gods of science and medicine, sacrifices that enriched the new priests. Then, thirty years ago, the new priests of dermatology told the people to shun the Sun God. "Banish her from your lives", they said, "She is evil." The people listened to the new priests and kept their pregnant women out of the Sun God's warmth, and told their children she was wicked. The people stayed inside, their children with them and traveled behind glass in their cars and wore sunblock and sunhats to keep the Sun God away. The Sun God grew vengeful...."

      Look, we've been told for decades that type 2 diabetes in incurable, when it is in most cases cured within a week of a better diet:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46_GInjBeQU
      http://www.rawfor30days.com/
      Above is a link on how to get past the "pleasure trap" keeping people from changing their diet for the better and readjusting their tastes to healthy food.

      We've been told heart disease and cancer are just inheritable and "genetic", when most of that is

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    5. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Are there any links you could please provide to any books or web sources about how to "build ... cognitive and social skills via directed play therapy"?

      I'd agree that raising kids has many aspects. Nutrition is only one of them.

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    6. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      Are there any links you could please provide to any books or web sources about how to "build ... cognitive and social skills via directed play therapy"?

      I'd agree that raising kids has many aspects. Nutrition is only one of them.

      I'm sure there are, but I wouldn't know where they are. My wife and I just go in every week to learn what we're supposed to be doing at that very moment. :)

      I can ask my son's therapist for some recommendations, if you'd like. What age group are we targeting? I can email you at webmaster@k____-f_______.com (censored due to spam harvesters... probably an overkill since you publish it on your webpage, but you never know), if you'd like to discuss.

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      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    7. Re:Most autism is from such things? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Thanks. No need to go out of your way. I see a bunch of links here:
      http://www.google.com/#q=play+therapy
      http://www.a4pt.org/
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_therapy

      And more specific stuff here:
      http://www.google.com/#q=play+therapy+autism
      http://www.a4pt.org/ps.playtherapy.cfm?ID=1161
      http://www.playproject.org/
      http://www.autismlink.com/pages/autism_therapy_play
      "Play therapy, or floortime, as some refer to it, is the t ype of therapy coined by Dr. Stanley Greenspan. The theory behind the concept is to enter the child 's world, play with the child on his or her terms, and slowly expand the base of play to include new ideas. Although there have been few studies on the efficacy of play therapy/ floortime, many parents have seen excellent results. For example, if a child is perseverating or obsessing with cars and perhaps watching the wheels spin, the play therapy approach would be to get down on the floor with the child and begin by watching the wheels spin with him or her, then eventually d o other things with the car, such as drive it on the floor as a typical child would do. Slowly, over time, the child will learn to expand his or her repetoire o f play, and will learn to interact with others. An excellent book on this subject, called "The Child with Special Needs," by Dr. Stanely I. Greenspan, explains the concept in depth, or you can click on some of the links below.
      AutismLink does not recommend one type of therapy over another. We can, however, tell you that what counts is the amount of time that the child spends ENGAGED with other people. No matter which modality of treatment you choose, you will see your child make progress. There is considerable debate among parents and pro fessionals as to which type of therapy is the "best" or the most effective. Choose what you feel is right for your child. Only you can make that decision. You can also choose more than one type of therapy and use a combination approach."

      I like this book, btw, just about play and education in general, from someone who helped run a "free school" that was play-based for thirty years:
      http://www.chrismercogliano.com/childhood.htm

      By the way, make sure you check vitamin D levels:
      http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/autism/autism-information.shtml
      http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/another-autism-case-report.shtml

      After discussing it with our (new) pediatrician, we give our kid about 2000 IU D3 daily (as one 5000 IU D3 gel cap every other day or so). Dental issues should have been an early clue to vitamin D deficiency, but the medical and dental community have been clueless in the past about nutrition. A source for better general advice we like is Dr. Fuhrman (even as I think he is a tad low about vitamin D):
      http://www.drfuhrman.com/children/default.aspx
      "As parents, we want what is best for our children. We would never intentionally harm them. In fact, we make sure to get them the best care we know, read to them at bedtime and insist they wear their seatbelts, but when it comes to children and food, somehow we don't know what is the best thing to do. Our children seem finicky and only eat cheese, pasta, chicken fingers or milk and cook

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      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  78. More studies suggesting an autism vaccine link... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.talkaboutcuringautism.org/medical/studies-about-vaccine-autism-link.htm

    Mentioned here:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/hxwhite/no-link-found-between-vac_n_715090_61080424.html

    Although, as in my other comments, the issue may be a much broader one about dealing with toxins, dealing with immune system issues from vitamin D deficiency, and so on, where the extra heavy metal toxic load or allergic reaction from some vaccines is just one of many issues...

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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  79. Statement From Dr. Andrew Wakefield: No Fraud... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1
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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.