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Patriot Act Up For Renewal, Nobody Notices
Ponca City, We Love You writes "When the Patriot Act was first signed in 2001, it was billed as a temporary measure required because of the extreme circumstances created by the terrorist threat. The fear from its opponents was that executive power, once given, is seldom relinquished. Now the Examiner reports that on January 5th, Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) introduced a bill to add yet another year to the soon-to-be-expiring Patriot Act, extending it until February, 2012, with passage likely to happen after little debate or contention. If passed, this would be the second time the Obama administration has punted on campaign promises to roll back excessive surveillance measures allowed under the act. Last year's extension passed under the heading of the Medicare Physician Payment Reform Act. 'Given the very limited number of days Congress has in session before the current deadline, and the fact that the bill's Republican sponsor is only seeking another year, I think it's safe to read this as signaling an agreement across the aisle to put the issue off yet again,' writes Julian Sanchez."
Veto it.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
I noticed yesterday when it was published in another news source.
All of Slashdot noticed today obviously.
Quit acting like nobody noticed or the politicians might start to think they can get away with nobody noticing.
That deaf-dumb-blind kid, sure could play a mean pinball.
Ha, bet you thought I was gonna say "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss", didn't you?
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Wont.
More unconstitutional drivel from our elected body. I guess reading the constitution isn't doing them a bit of good.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Why is anyone surprised that Patriot act has bipartisan support? At the time it was passed all Democrat senators voted for it except for one (Feingold) and he is not in senate anymore. Democrats always supported the act, just like the Republicans did. Obama has renewed it regularly since so its a safe bet that he would have voted for it had he been in senate at the time.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Let's not forget his promise to shut down Guantanamo and to end the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy.
When Obama and the Democrats didn't repeal it when they had all the power, and now, when they seemingly won't object to its renewal, does that mean they are hypocrites? Does it also mean that they actually tacitly approve of it?
For all the noise and whining that's been made about it by their constituents , the Dems sure have been quiet about it.
When the people you hate (republicans) and the people you love (Democrats) seem to be of like mind on something like this, is it time to consider that you are on the fringes and just a bit nuts?
we talk about how unworkable, public-enemy the system in america has become. and say that wikileaks exposes stuff like these, and it is necessary. whoops -> mod down to oblivion. uncomfortable truth better not heard.
and when we call on americans, some of you come up saying that not all americans are the same, some of you actually see what's going on, and aware of how things really are. ok. well. nice.
however, you have to do that, BEFORE being called out. if, you dont speak, and instead let the most loud voice that speaks be of irrationality and make-believe, it means that you are basically leaving the arena to such minded people.
when the wise dont speak, fools have the day.
Read radical news here
How long until they set it up so it's "extended for another year" renewal bill becomes automatically passed if it isn't voted down?
They've done it on other things. It's a scam where they can refuse to vote, it automatically passes, and they can claim they didn't vote for it.
It's going to take a lot of people to metaphorically kick them in the balls repeatedly until they get the idea that maybe that nazi act needs to be retired before they'll do it.
I love the way US laws are given these cheesy, sometimes forced, acronyms.
I think you guys are doing yourself a disservice as they seem to dumb down the often complex debates and arguments covered by these acts, and force folk into simplistic positions based on the naming of the acts. It must be hard to argue against a PATRIOT act: most people don't want to appear 'unpatriotic'.
I am guessing there are civil servants paid to make up some of these acronyms, some of them must have taken some thinking! ("Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001" - impressive!).
is a mandatory sunset date on every bill that they sign into law. A year wouldn't be bad. A year would give legal scholars and the public (and maybe even congress itself ,... nah wait for it...... hahahahaha) a chance to review it to see if it actually works.
True story, bro. President Obama will not veto the Patriot Act. One thing both parties agree on, the Patriot act is a great tool for maintaining the status quo of the current power elites.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The PATRIOT Act is here to stay. There is NO WAY the Federal Government is going to willingly give up all the powers it granted them.
Of all the stupid things that happened during the Bush years, that is by far the most damaging. And it's going to take a Congress and a President with a hell of a lot more spine to repeal it. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Would anyone even notice? Would he comment on it? Here's the mailing address:
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
A mailing address that changes all the rules.
"What no one seemed to notice... was the ever widening gap... between the government and the people. The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway... and kept us so busy with continuous changes and 'crises' and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the 'national enemies,' without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that... one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. But the one great shocking occasion... never comes. That's the difficulty." - Milton Mayer (1908-1986) journalist and educator, writing about the Nazi takeover of Germany from the point of view of the average citizen, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1938-45
Americans seem to fall into these categories:
The rich - they don't care about justice or injustice, just money
The poor - they may care but they have no power
The oblivious - they're busy watching American Idol and eating pizza
The middle class - they're just trying to maintain or looking for work
"What keeps most Americans from being shocked by the shredding of the Bill of Rights is that they have yet to feel the consequences, either personally or through someone close to them. It would appear, however, that they only have to wait." - William Blum
No, we decided that if we were going to be oppressed, we could at least bask in the small luxury of complete sentences.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
There has not been much serious abuse of the law since it was created. While the potential for that abuse is still there I have not seen convincing evidence that the innocent have been terribly harassed because of this act. The war is still on. Numerous attacks have been foiled in the last several years primarily due to good intelligence. I hope someday that we will again live in a world where these laws are not needed, but I don't think that day has come.
Obama is worse than Bush: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
And to think that man almost become vice president... Man! dodged a bullet on that one..
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
This is textbook propaganda. All governments do it.
Doublespeak, newspeak, thought-terminating cliches, loaded language and weasel words.
Bonus points if you can shoehorn all that it into a backronym.
I think moreso than anything else, the Patriot Act can be held up as a shining example of both parties caring about nothing more than maintaining power. The Patriot Act goes against almost everything the Democratic party supposedly stands for; quietly continuing its usage and doing nothing to try to kill it should be proof to all but the most hardcore lefties that their beloved politicos are no better than the right-wingers they despise.
"I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here: I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs. I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking. Wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!" -Bill Hicks
Living With a Nerd
Why oh why did I just spend my last modpoint on a funny post about salty bacteria ?
What a depressingly stupid machine.
While I agree that Obama has left much to be desired, comparing a common speech problem with a bumbling idiot is flamebait at best and ignorant at worst.
I mean, come on...seriously? Making fun of a guy who pseudo-stutters? What is this, fucking kindergarten?
Living With a Nerd
I didn't like it then, not because I thought it would be abused at the time, but because you never give a gov't that kind of power, since they will never give it up and it would continue to grow.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
If only it were just a desire to subjugate us, then getting rid of it would be easy.
Don't forget the thousands of contracts, business and funding that have propped themselves up with the Patriot Act, getting rid of those won't make voters happy.
Also there is the little problem of re-piecing the US code back together after it was shot to swiss cheese after that abysmal act was passed (very difficult considering all legislation that has been done since then). Granted IANAL, but that doesn't seem like an easy task.
Actually, "the most hardcore lefties" are pretty fucking disillusioned with Obama right about now. We all kinda hoped he would do something about the, you know, TORTURE. But not only did he not go after the torturers in the previous regime, HE KEPT ON DOING IT. It was at that point that all the hardcore lefties went, "Oh. Whoopsie. Looks like we elected another fucking lizard."
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Sorry if I was obtuse, I completely agree. Change is fantasy. I was deriding the slogan not the grandparent poster.
--- Do you believe in the day?
But I have to take my hat off to your lot, you've got it down to a fine art! Our lot still call laws things like the "Constitutional Reform and Governance Act".
Hardly works the same with rednecks eh? you can't give somebody a hard time by saying "hey buddy, you're not un-CRGA -tic are you?" ;-)
No, you weren't obtuse at all, but this is the Internet and there are dumb people about, so I decided to spell. it. out. really. simply. for. them.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I didn't say Obama, I said the Democratic party. You do realize Obama isn't the only person with a (D) after their name, right?
Living With a Nerd
What is this, fucking kindergarten?
Is that a rhetorical question?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I always thought that McCain was reasonably articulate. I'm not seeing where you are going here.
I feel sorry for people who can't understand sarcasm. Republicans call us demoncrats all the time, I was just reclaiming the word. I did not actually use the word "demoncrat" when complaining to my right wing friends about the patriot act.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Well excuse me then. I actually still like a few democrats. They are not all right of center sellouts like Obama. I was objecting to your characterization of "the most hardcore lefties" being the holdouts supporting this travesty. The most hardcore lefties were the first ones who realized it was happening. We aren't like the republicans, we do not circle our wagons, coordinate our talking points, and defend "our team" to the death.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
"There's a reason .... blah blah blah blah..."
There are probably lots of reasons, but mostly because aside from all the distractions (airport screenings and all that) the hardcore intelligence is out there actually catching the threats. How many "almost did it again" threats have been on the news? How many more never made it to the news? I personally know of one apartment not far from where I lived in Arlington, TX that was literally filled with explosives -- I've got a lot of pictures from that bizarre incident with some guys dressed up like big fat Halo Spartans and lots and lots of emergency vehicles. (pretty sure that one never made the news... maybe it did... I didn't see much in the way of media on location though)
Also, it's been done before, so they will do something else.
And yes, there is some truth to the "no passenger will let it happen" thing because, frankly, I'd be first in line to jump in to stop it. But to cite that as the only deterrent? Hardly.
The only way is to apply pressure. I am sure they don't give a damn about what the few geeks think on slashdot and other sites combined. So what do you do. MAKE NOISE. Get in the news u know like the tea party people did. Organize a rally against it in Washington. Noise and pressure is the best way to get noticed.
What's a pseudo-stutter?
If W was really an idiot, would it be his fault? Guess what: he's Ivy-league educated, and not an idiot. Why are you calling people names? What is this, preschool?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
In case you haven't ever noticed, there is no left wing in the US. There are two rights.
Mastering the English language is fucking easy: all you have to do is to put an f* word in every fucking sentence.
They are not all right of center sellouts like Obama.
Just about every politician in existence is a corrupt corporate sellout. Even so, I do wish the American drones would give a third party a chance for once.
The guy holding the puppets is special interests. Get money out of American politics and the puppet loses his strings.
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/01/11/lind_five_worldviews
The Democrats and the Republicans, when they govern, all generally govern as neoliberal globalists. Some Democrats campaign as social democratic liberals; somewhat more Republicans, lately, campaign as nationalist populists. Nonetheless, the consensus of power itself is pretty stable, and has been since the mid-90s.
Neoliberal globalism is essentially "center-right" ideology. It's very close to core neoconservatism, with the difference being that neo-conservatives give a bit more authority to the idea of the nation-state in carrying out its policing function.
No it would not be his fault, it would be the fault of the folks that elected him.
As to his supposed education, have you ever heard of a "Gentleman's C"?
What makes you think I haven't done something? Sounds like you are projecting a little.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
What third party? The Greens? The Tea party? Ross Perot?!?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
"You and your ilk"
I don't see you doing anything about it either. Which makes you a phony as well.
Honestly I don't see why people get so worked up about politics. It's not about left versus right, liberal versus conservative. It's about "us" the politicians, dividing "you" the population, so that you're at each other's throats and too busy to notice that we stole the cake.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Is it? We have been making noise, but the corporate media won't cover it because they are simply apologists for the power elite that own them.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I wish we knew what Obama got from Columbia, because he wouldn't release those grades. We do know he got less than a 3.3 because he did not graduate with honors. He did do well in law school.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Whoa, Obama is right of center?? Wait a minute there. Me thinks you need to readjust your pointer. Right of center is Libertarian area and he aint Libertarian one single bit. You know Libertarians demand smaller government, hands off approach to everything, Obama and the Democrats are not even there.....yet.
"Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
The first rules of power is you never give up power. Why should we think now is any different with democrats than republicans? That being said it could also be debated that we, as a country, are no safer now then when the Act came into being. What if anything has truly changed?
We all kinda hoped he would do something about the, you know, TORTURE. But not only did he not go after the torturers in the previous regime, HE KEPT ON DOING IT. It was at that point that all the hardcore lefties went, "Oh. Whoopsie
Obama was very clear during his campaign that he would step up the war in Afghanistan. Why is anyone surprised?
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
No, we decided that if we were going to be oppressed, we could at least bask in the small luxury of complete sentences.
Still think it was Obama vs. Bush in 2008, huh?
Oh, and have a listen to Obama in the rare occasion he's not reading from a teleprompter. Not much better than Bush.
But at least he can pronounce "Nuclear".
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
If W was really an idiot, would it be his fault? Guess what: he's Ivy-league educated, and not an idiot.
"I'm going to put people in my place, so when the history of this administration is written at least there's an authoritarian voice saying exactly what happened." --George W. Bush
"One of the very difficult parts of the decision I made on the financial crisis was to use hardworking people's money to help prevent there to be a crisis." --George W. Bush
"I'm telling you there's an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That's the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best." --George W. Bush
"In terms of the economy, look, I inherited a recession, I am ending on a recession." --George W. Bush
"First of all, I don't see America having problems." --George W. Bush
"I want to tell you how proud I am to be the President of a nation that -- in which there's a lot of Philippine-Americans. They love America and they love their heritage. And I reminded the President that I am reminded of the great talent of the -- of our Philippine-Americans when I eat dinner at the White House." --George W. Bush
The man is a fucking idiot.
Living With a Nerd
That was why I voted for Hillary in the primary. I voted for Obama because he and Biden are still better than Grumpy Grandpa and Caribou Barbie. I knew he was another Clintonesque corporate centrist, and quite hawkish for a supposed democrat, but even I thought he would do away with our policy of torturing people.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I listened to George W Bush address this nation for 8 years. Were you listening? If the man isn't an idiot, he was doing a great job talking like it.
Living With a Nerd
1) He's off by a factor of 50, which while not great, is still orders of magnitude better than the 1:1 odds of being spied upon that he quotes. Even if both stats are off by a factor of 50, the point still stands; or
2) He's engaging in the ancient and time-honored art of hyperbole, in which case his point STILL stands.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
McCain's undoing was the Palin crap and not running as he did before. Had he ran as McCain in 2000 he could have been elected, instead he did as his party told him and lost for it.
What difference would it make? If he got straight As, he would be an elite asshole (or he paid someone off.) If he got B or Cs, he'd be average and not worthy of the presidency. If he got straight Ds, he'd be an idiot.
Right?
Living With a Nerd
Yes, I remember those days, that was before the US got 57 states!
Haven't you been listening to the source of all "truth", Fox News? Obama is so far left that's he's completely off the map, looney Communist nutjob?
No they don't cover shashdot etal. They cover rallies in washington. And the pundits spew their stuff over the rallies in washington. Tea party, Jon Stewart, etc. So there needs to be some organization, marches, and lots of REAL noise. Not noise on Slashdot.
Stay calm, ma'am, the whaaaambulance is on the way. Please try to stay standing, you will only make the butthurt worse by sitting down.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I wasn't talking about noise on Slashdot, and by "we" I didn't mean any of you here. "They" didn't really cover any of the rallies in Washington I went to. Get off your high horse, you aren't the only politically active person who happens to post on Slashdot.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
North of center is Libertarian area
Lol.. This is a stupid argument I see made all over the place. Just because the left wing isn't left of some world allusions of center is doesn't mean it's not left of the right in America.
In referencing politics in America, there is a left and a right in connection to American politics. There is even a center in reference to it. The fact that they fall somewhere else on a scale used outside of the US means little when delving into the details of politics in the US. It's like saying your Chevy pickup truck is one of the fastest cars sold in America because Chevy makes the 2011 Corvette ZR1 which can go 205 mph (329.9 kph). You are concentrating too much on the adjectives and not enough on the details.
Besides, the terms left and right were historically resulting from the French revolution in which it was referring to the seating arrangement in parliament. Those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization. So instead of resorting it to some political scale, it can accurately be used to describe a state of politics completely separate from that scale.
McCain's undoing was that the economy spectacularly tanked in the year before the election; combined with the impression Bush left, it made it certain that no Republican could win.
Well, there is another reason and the GP actually stated it without realizing it.
If it took a law called the Patriot Act that "enabled Intelligence agencies to reorder themselves to combat new threats, identified post-9/11, and out of that what is in place now is standard practice and procedure", then without that law all that will disappear and old standard practice and procedures will return.
As it turns out, the patriot act has a sunset clause in it. That clause requires it to be reexamined and renewed, altered if need be, to assess the changes in the threats and possible remove encroaches on out freedoms that might be within it while making it as effective as possible without hampering any, or as little as possible, our civil liberties. Because of this sunset clause, if it isn't renewed, those protections and/or changes the GP mentioned and seemed to agree with will be removed as the laws previous to it do not allow it to happen.
"My ilk"? I'll have you know, sir, that I don't even *own* an ilk!
Hi America, You've lost your privacy (FBI, NSA) You've lost your dignity (airport security). You've lost your liberty (Patriot Act). All because of a few bogeymen. Best hide under your beds clutching your teddy bears - its all you've got left.
Not that different from George Bush, really. Except that Pres. Bush would plow ahead and build bizarre grammatical constructs, while Pres. Obama just stops and continues repeating his word until he decides what to say next. The result is generally a more grammatically-correct sentence, but it doesn't make him sound any smarter while he's doing it.
Except for one point I'd like to make... at least, once Obama is done, whether you agree with what he said or not, he makes sense. Half the time, by the time Bush is finished with his "bizarre grammatical constructs", he's making no sense. One can speculate what he means, but honestly, I usually have no clue, and worse yet, I dont think he does either.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Shhh. you are going to hurt their feelings. I mean putting a man who has achieved so much more then them down can only be looked at as an attempt to feel better about themselves.
If you spoil that for them, they will have nothing. So quiet down now.
Damn straight he is. The center in this country wants a public health care option, an end to the Bush tax cuts, the Patriot Act repealed, Gitmo closed, and their kids home from getting shot at in the desert. That's the center. The Obama administration is firmly to the right of it. It's not hard to understand.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
problem with "democracy" is that it really just ends up meaning the ones with the most money, win. All you have to do is convince more gullible sheep than the other person running, and bam - there you are. Sure, sure, it's really just how we've implemented democracy, not democracy itself that is a problem...except, I disagree. There is no way to have the common man make wise, intelligent decisions that are good for themselves. They want instant gratification. The common man has as much business deciding on budgets, long term goals, etc as a 5yo child does in a household - let the parents/adults make those decisions, kktnx.
What economy has been growing at an astronomical speed? The one that is able to make quick and intelligent decisions (China) without worrying about the people it harms. There's a happy medium between the two things...and that happy medium was what we originally had; a system where only the educated could vote. Was it perfect? Hell know, but at least it wasn't farking stupid like the crap we have now. I've never understood why people so readily accept the brainwashing that democracy is the only right way...think about how horrible medical science would be if we let the "common man" make decisions about how to do treatments, what procedures would be most respected, etc. Think about how successful medicine would be if any actor, random dude on the street, or whatnot could suddenly declare themselves a surgeon.
There is a certain skillset and personality to being a real, honest politician. One that has little to do with reading polls daily. We'll never get that back here - ever. C'est la vie, I guess.
Doesn't the Patriot Act go against what both parties supposedly stand for?
If anything, I'd think the general dogma of the Republican party (smaller, less intrusive government) would be more Anti-Patriot Act than the Dems position. Granted, the Patriot Act appears to be taken up as a Republican cause. Of course we all should know by now that its about power and money, not which party you are in or bothersome things like values or the Constitution.
I'm so apathetic nowadays I don't even know what party to belong too anyway. Every time there is an election, its a choice between a giant douche or a turd sandwich.
Err....how did he get into Harvard Law with a 3.3? "Honors" varies from school to school.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
The Greens? The Tea party?
Yes, some green tea would be lovely. No sugar please.
Reply to That ||
... had that kind of courage. RIP.
-kgj
Hmm, the public wants health care reform... Health care reform does not necessarily mean the public health care option which most people in my experience (unscientific obviously) clearly don't want.
The people who pay taxes want an end to tax cuts? I'm sorry no... Are you talking about the same tax cuts that were billed as only affecting the rich up until they were due to expire, now there is a panic on both sides of the isle worrying about the tax increases on the middle class when they expire?
Patriot act repealed, hmm I can't argue with this, never liked it in the first place... My question is what happened to those of you on the left that stopped complaining about this once our current president took office?
I have no problem with closing gitmo, but before we can we need to figure out what to do with the prisoners there first, many of whom the countries we would normally deport them to don't even want them...
I to want to see our brothers and sisters in the military come home. Who doesn't. However, just up and leaving isn't the best solution here or we will find ourselves going back at some point in the future... Did Bush do well in these wars? No. Is our current president doing any better? No.
Odd, three of your five points have been agreed to at least in principle by someone who who is definitely right of center... I do however have a few conditions on some of your absolutes...
One thing I've learned over the years, both the left and the right think they are near the center, in reality neither has a clue as to where the center is and who is actually in it. All to often the people in the center feel their choices when voting are bad and worse, which side is which can vary depending on the beliefs of the individual.
For the most part, people seem to look at reality through the lense of their beliefs, not seeing reality but their interpretation of reality, which doesn't always match up to what is actually happening...
--- When you start with the conclusion that you want, then throw out any facts that don't agree, is it true?
Libertarians aren't even on the map, they are a tiny fringe group of utter wingnuts more divorced from reality than even the teabaggers.
Divorced from reality? Sorry to be so blunt but why exactly do you think that?
"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
The system will not allow somebody get elected who is threatens to disrupt those in power today. The best you can do is end up in a few party primaries like Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich and quickly be marginalized by the party elite, the press, the tv media, and even big donors. You think its bad for 3rd parties? Well, the people within the parties get calmly screwed and setup in more covert ways-- With Nader, all you get is some transparency because they have no incentive to be as nice.... That is, if you pay attention to the 3rd party at all because the press sure does not tell you about the dirty tricks.
Obama could be great; however, it does not matter about him personally or what he tries to accomplish - he is a pragmatist and totally willing to compromise over ideals, ethics, etc. THAT is why he was allowed to proceed despite being an untested outsider -- Hillary would have won if Obama couldn't be managed. (The party elite were largely in her camp at the beginning- but they are just 1 of the weaker factions.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Ron Paul is, like all libertarians, a corporatist tool. The only "libertarian" issues he cares about are the issues his ultra-wealthy elite masters tell him to care about, lower taxes for the rich, and getting rid of any safety nets that would allow the working man to negotiate with the elites on a more level playing field. His corporate masters would have said, "Ron, we like this. Shut up about it," and he would have shut up like the good little drone he is.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
let me help you with this:
http://politicalcompass.org/
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
I'll tell you why I think libertarians are divorced from reality. Because they believe in simplistic solutions to complex problems. Because they do not think through the implications of their policies. Because they refuse to look at the lessons of history. Because they are funded by ultra-wealthy elites like the Koch brothers. Because they live in an echo chamber of their own devising. Is that enough, or would you like some more?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I've taken the test. I'm a social anarchist, which is why I despise free market anarchists so much.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I think you'll find the center wants health care reform, fair taxation, and gitmo closed on the condition that everyone there gets shipped back home or, for the lulz, into Russia (just so long as they aren't here). So you got 2 right, 1 pretty close. But HCO is a pretty far left ideal, the most centric idea in health care is just anti-corporate reform and regulation (almost everything they've proposed is pro-corporation, that's precisely what we don't want, k Obama?). In any case, with our current congress, the whole healthcare thing is a lose-lose situation since either way the big companies win, only real (read: anti-corporation, pro-consumer) reform and regulation would harm their bottom line and make healthcare more affordable without damaging our economy. And as for "fair taxation" -- that topic is so controversial it's likely impossible to achieve. Liberals want anyone making more money than they need to have the rest taxed away. Conservatives want any company making any profit at all to be completely untaxed. Two moronic extremes that are completely incompatible each other and what the average American is likely to want. Fair Tax has some good features but it glosses over parts that would unfairly tax the poor. Whatever happens, it needs to be simple, our current tax system breeds overpaid jobs and govt. agencies that over-consume budget but that complexity is entirely unnecessary -- it also tends to favor big corporations who can hire paralegals and tax specialists to find big holes for their money. That's a shocker, isn't it? *sigh*. The United Corporations of America.
The largest Washington protests not only got downplayed but some of the biggest in history were almost entirely ignored. I'm thinking of some of the early anti war protests that hardly had coverage and many people I knew didn't know about them or that they outnumbered most (perhaps all) the Vietnam protests in size.
I've been to some protests and while they were only a few thousand, I knew how many people where there because I know how big a crowd that size is (my high school as that large) but the local news ranged from thousand down to 500. Fox news was there and their man gathered the 6-8 republican supporters against the back of our crowd and filmed them as a group which was portrayed as non-staged and because of the direction didn't give as much of a picture as to how few of them there were. I know because I was board and counted all them that afternoon. (Assuming they wouldn't just stand around looking like they were with the protesters and would have opposing signage.) I also followed around the fox news guy to see what he was up to; along with spotting 4 undercover cops (that makes a fun game.)
Yet when Glenn Beck or or some tea baggers are less than 15k in size they get more attention than 100k do.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
The trouble with that compass is that it doesn't really represent well-round worldviews, and certainly not the ones that animate the American populace. It charts, well, how you feel about the presence of government in a couple of axes.
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/01/11/lind_five_worldviews is a much better description - past the crude "right/left" axis which has meant different things at different times.
Sellout?--That means he (we) got something for giving up principles.
If he's a sellout that means the French were sellouts during WWII because they turned out to be cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
You and millions of others just plain got fooled, notwithstanding my sig.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
Liberals want anyone making more money than they need to have the rest taxed away.
That is not the liberal position at all. Liberals want fair and economically sustainable tax rates. Liberals don't like taxes more then anyone else, but they also don't try to pretend that the government can do the things we want it to do without them.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
Mr President When you swore to close Guantanamo, I wept. The pure vindication of my life long love for America seemed finally vindicated. You swore a return to sanity, to justice and peace. You swore an oath to your countrymen with such passion that they entrusted upon you the highest office. Your treachery is boundless.
Haven't you been listening to the source of all "truth", Fox News? Obama is so far left that's he's completely off the map, looney Communist nutjob?
I thought he was a fundamentalist Kenyan Muslim who wants to institute Sharia law in the United States. It's so hard to keep up with the sheer, unadulterated evil that is Obama.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
The certainly explains how a black man is president. Status quo sheesh.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The center? of 'people around you'?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
No. It doesn't. The fair tax taxes consumption above the poverty level; the poor aren't taxed at all.
I'm going to lay some numbers down to show you how it works. I'm picking them because they're easy to follow, not because they're specific suggestions. What the actual numbers should be would vary, but if you actually understand the following, your concerns about the poor will be resolved. There are only two numbers: cost of living, and the fair tax percentage.
Lets say that the cost of living for an average person is determined to be $1000 per month. Let us also say that the fairtax, which is a tax only levied on purchase of new materials, is 35%. Those are the numbers. Here's how it goes:
Every person gets a check at the beginning of the month from the government. That check, in the case of 35% fairtax and $1000 cost of living, is exactly $350. So what happens is, as you buy your cost-of-living necessities, and you are charged 35% tax on them, you are paying it out of this $350 check. You have exactly enough to pay the taxes on $1000 worth of purchases: 35% of $1000 is $350. Three important consequences arise:
First, you're paying no taxes on your $1000 of spending -- because that $350 came from outside your income. It's extra. So this means, no question about it, that up to cost of living, your purchases are tax free.
Secondly, because you got the $350 at the beginning of the month, and you have given it back to the government it by the end, then next month, when you get your next $350 check, it's the same money as last month so there is no ongoing expense to maintain this. Just a one-time outlay of $350 per person that gets recycled.
Third, administration costs are almost zero. Everyone gets a check. There are no exceptions, there are no variations. So there are no conditions, no verifications, no nothing. Everyone gets a check, period. This means the government saves huge amounts of money. The IRS can be disbanded; businesses no longer have to collect taxes from employees; accountants, lawyers and other parasites will have to look elsewhere for their hosts. The economic gains are huge.
The poor person who is actually living at the cost of living line is now living tax free, period. The middle class person can also benefit from this, because they don't pay taxes until they start spending on options, upgrades, excesses. The high income person doesn't really give a damn, because that $350 is meaningless in terms of their income.
The fairtax is extremely fair. Proportionally speaking, it benefits the poor much more than the middle class, and the middle class more than the rich. Which is just what you want it to do. And anyone with any extra money at all, not to mention people who work the used market, can save money, tax-free, under the fairtax.
The idea that the fairtax is "unfair to the poor" or "regressive" is propaganda or misunderstanding. No more, no less. Modern income tax implementation is highly regressive, however, and does huge harm to the poor by hiding taxes in the prices of goods and services.
These cartoons may help you understand these concepts:
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
However, sunset will never come. Just like last time, they'll shove it into some otherwise irrelevant bill, and it'll be renewed. Forever. Count on it.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
When Obama was elected, he had a website, basically "hey citizens, tell us what you want!" The most popular thing on that site, bar none, by huge margins, was the legalization of marijuana. You know what Obama did? He laughed it off. He mentioned it, but specifically said the only reason he was mentioning it was because he wanted us to know it wasn't going to happen.
That's what happens when the public makes its will clearly known.
This is not a democracy. This is a corporatist republic. Once you fully understand that, you'll stop wasting your time writing letters.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Oh, no. They read it, all right. They scanned every word to see if there was a political contribution in there, or a way to eke one out of you. You know, money. Once they were done with that, then they threw it away. I assure you, they read every letter carefully.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I believe the appropriate English-language article would be German Emergency Acts.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Personally, I think that most libertarians have the same understanding of society's complexity of a toddler. Most conservatives just follow the line that religious leaders and big media say them to follow. The last great conservative intellectual in my opinion was Robert A. Heinlein.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
As I recall, a good-sized chunk of the Patriot Act was written by John Kerry (you remember him, right? He ran against Bush in 2004). So, no, the Patriot Act doesn't actually go against everything the Democratic Party stands for.
Ooops! You said "supposedly stands for", not "stands for". My bad.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
That sounds much better than what I originally read about. When I last looked into the concept, it appeared to only be a fixed percentage spending tax (that % to be determined, but 35% estimates thrown around). I didn't read about a reimbursement from the govt. for cost of living, however that would definitely fix the issues for the poor, along with potentially lessened taxes on certain food items like we currently have.
In that case, I'm quite for this. But you have to fight against bringing the IRS down, killing the need for tax lawyers, etc.. we'll see "XX thousand jobs to be destroyed by this bill." Needless to say, the plenty of companies who specialize at cheating people out of their money to figure out their taxes up to this preposterous tax code we have aren't going to go quietly, and congress tends to respond to money and lobbyists more than voters.
Instead, we have a plutocracy run amok that will not stop until they end with their heads severed by a guillotine. American democracy currently is a very bad joke since there are not term limits,campaign spending limits, rules about propaganda in mass media, rules about what are you allowed to say about an opponent or a standardized voting method. That coupled with a poorly educated population is a recipe for disaster. Montesquieu wrote about how will look a sick republic several hundred of years ago. His description fits perfectly for the USA and most western nations. My country, Mexico, is just in a more advanced state of rotting than USA or France, but is a matter of time and lack of citizens will to change to be in the same mess that we mexicans are.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
"More divorced from reality" is the religious.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
Libertarians want FREEDOM. They want the Constitution. They want sound money. They want friendly relations and trade with other countries without wars and without being the military dictatorship of the world.
They want the right to speak and the right to be left alone.
They want the government to be scared of the people and not the people to be scared of the government.
Liberty.
I'm a free market libertarian and I can guarantee you have no sound reason to despise me.
Liberty.
The truly wealthy, already control the government and the money supply. Why do they need his changes? Why do they want a reduction in government when they already own it and use it as their power tool?
Why do they want a reduction in military spending and the exit from the wars; when they ARE the military industrial complex?
Why would they want a return to sound money when they are in control of the printing of fiat money? Why would they want de-centralizing of power when they control the centralized powers and continually push for more globalization and centralization of power - into their hands?
Why would they want to give individuals the right to be left alone and the right to free speech when they want more control over individuals and more control over the centralized mass media?
Give it a chance. Listen to him and listen to Judge Napolitano. Listen to his good friend kucinich.
Liberty.
The chief architect of the Patriot Act was Viet Dinh, Assistant Attorney General to John Ashcroft.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
The PATRIOT act was not required. They just passed it because it allowed them to do stuff that is only possible in times of war. Since with terrorism, you're not fighting something or someone very clear (i.e. a country), you can always say you're under threat and therefore do all the things you can't do in times of peace.
That was a real clever move, albeit evil.
"The body may heal, but the mind is not always so resilient." -- Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Yeah, it's really a great plan, but you're quite right, on its best day it'd be long, bloody fight, and odds are, if they implemented it at all, they'd do it as an addition to the IRS, which would be the most perverse thing you could do with the idea. Which, of course, is why they'd do it. Because they're perverse.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Too bad the only senator to vote against it the first time got voted out. I wonder if anyone (either House or Senate) will even try to take a stand this time around. My guess is no, because they're all worthless pussies.
Let me put a camera on you 24/7 for 8 years, and lets see what kind of 'best of' reel I can make. I hear a lot of sniping at Bush, but not a lot of considered and defended arguments in opposition to his opinions or actions. So, what has the empty suit in the white house done different from Bush that can be looked at and defended as a superior action? When he actually does anything, it turns out to be the same position Bush took. Otherwise, Obama's just a jaw wagging in time to a teleprompter.
If you're going to talk about considered and defended arguments, don't drop shallow insults like "empty suit" and "Obama's just a jaw wagging in time to a teleprompter".
Hopefully at least some of my reps will vote it down once it hits the floor for a vote.
Thanks for posting this on Slashdot. I don't think it's being covered in any mainstream news media outlet.
In a related note, has anyone noticed how obnoxious it has become to contact congress? I had to fill out a different web form for each congressman and the one for the house asked me for my full 10 digit zip, twice! It still only took about 15 minutes which is fully worth it for this issue.
Think globally but act within local variable scope.
I believe Raplh Nader called right at the beginning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo and of all people Fox not-News is coming to the defence of Uncle Tom Obama.
In fact is has gotten worse in the last two years with irradiate and grope, activist pre-emptive arrests, continued exemption from basic legal rights for foreigners in foreign lands (blowing up suspects, who were not innocent until proven guilty as well as their neighbours whom I assume are now guilty by association).
Methinks you do not understand the political spectrum at all, centre politics is very conservative (as in actually conservative not Republican conservative) ie, strict adherence to laws, always constrain change and risk by adding more laws, don't go to war, minimise imports, be more isolationist. The centre left was to add social welfare to that ie. universal health care, minimum wage based upon liveability, fair trade to take precedence over free trade, all people treated equally under the law, social welfare net to reduce societal stresses and crime, more open government and more involvement of the electorate in government.
The hardcore left is a meaningless term, mainly used as an insult against the centre left implying that they are radical far left revolutionaries, especially when they provide valid reasoning for their policy stances, which don't allow for insane selfish greed.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
The funny thing is, it's very rare to actually get anything when what you're selling is your principles. I won't say there hasn't ever been an instance where someone compromised on his principles and later was able to go back to thtem and have gained something in the meantime, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it has never happened.
Compromising may be better than sticking to the principles in question, but temporarily giving up on principles virtually never works.
Now all that's needed is a third.
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
The Republicans were definitely not in a good position in 2008, but the old John McCain would have been about the best possible pick as he was about as far away as you could get from Bush while still having an R after his name. However, his hard right turn starting about 2006 hurt his chances a lot, and then his pick of Palin as a running mate showed that he was no longer capable of making a good choice when it came to important decisions. That is what sank him.
Shhh. you are going to hurt their feelings. I mean putting a man who has achieved so much more then them down can only be looked at as an attempt to feel better about themselves.
Really? Name ONE thing he did that is a meaningful aspiration.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
So, what has the empty suit in the white house done different from Bush that can be looked at and defended as a superior action? When he actually does anything, it turns out to be the same position Bush took.
So, repealing don't ask don't tell is indefensible? Reversing Bush's ban on stem cell research?
I hear a lot of sniping at Bush, but not a lot of considered and defended arguments in opposition to his opinions or actions.
I suspect that's because you don't listen for them. Criticism of Bush's policies is legion.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Err....how did he get into Harvard Law with a 3.3?
Must have been a legacy.
You think I'm making a joke about Bush getting into Yale, but actually Obama's father got his masters at Harvard.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Sounds to me that while talking, he can't hold a train of thought and plan ahead while talking, and when he slips, the scenario worsens. That's a brain tasking issue, not a proof of him being an idiot.
Its also kind of a disqualifier for being a modern politician since speaking well under stress is kind of a prerequisite. Before Bush there was Quayle. The closest thing the other guys have to that is Biden - but he isn't stupid in the same way, he just doesn't have a filter. He's still plenty coherent even at his worst, just kind of an ass.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
No, the center of "every poll done on any of these topics." Which you could damn well have looked up yourself. Google, motherfucker. Do you use it.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
I am most certainly not "looking at reality through the lens of my beliefs." (FWIW, I'm nowhere near the center.) I'm looking at reality through the lens of the polling that has been done on these topics.
Yes, people want a public option. Overwhelmingly. In every poll that has been done on the topic for the last forty years. This is undisputed. Ask people why they're upset about "Obamacare." The overwhelming refrain is that it's a giveaway to the insurance companies that does nothing for real people's real problems. People don't want an insurance company bailout, and they don't want any more weak ass excuses about "but the meanies on the other side wouldn't let us!" They want this fixed.
The people want the tax cuts ended. Yes. Look at the numbers. Everybody wants this, Republicans, Democrats, everyone. Except the Republicans and Democrats in government, and the people that pay for them. But everybody else.
The Patriot Act. We seem to agree on this. But I'm not "those of you on the left." And I never shut up about it. You'll have to take that up with "those of them on the left." Who I detest more than you do, I assure you.
Gitmo and the war(s). Nope. Nobody cares anymore. Sick of it being our problem. The people at Guantanamo? Send them home. Do it today. The troops in combat? Bring them home. Do it last week. This is a miserable failure that's bankrupting America and killing our children. It's time to come home.
But what will those poor brown people do? The same damn things they were doing before we blew their countries up. End it. Bring them home.
And I don't see why you insist on continuing to make this a "our team's better than your team" thing, because I was at no point talking about anyone's team, but since you asked: Did the Bush administration win this war (oops, sorry, wars)? No. Is the Obama administration going to win these wars? No. That's my whole point.
End it. Bring them home. This is economically and morally bankrupt. Now, what do I think? I think we should bring every single soldier home. Right the fuck now. And then I think Barack Obama should appear on a globally transmitted television broadcast, get down on his knees, and beg the world's forgiveness for this atrocity. I think we should pay reparations to get these countries back on their feet. We blew all their shit up. We should pay to rebuild their shit. And then I think George W. Bush (and Barack Obama, yes) should be tried for war crimes, and put in a very small room for the rest of their natural lives. That's what I want. But we're not talking about what I want, more's the pity. We're talking about what "the center" wants. The center wants it over with. Bring them home. Now. No "bring them home except for 50,000 troops who are still in Iraq today," no "bring them home at the end of some arbitrary year that will be totally punted when the time comes because we're gonna fucking be there when I'm old," I'm talking about "put my kids on a plane in Kuwait this week and bring them home." People are sick of it.
Now, like I've been saying here, I'm not center. I'm not sure what I am, but I'm hardline something. But I'm not talking about me here. I'm talking about publicly available polling numbers that you could have looked up yourself instead of turning this into a partisan screed.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
Free market libertarians are funded and lead by the ultra-rich. People like the Koch brothers give you your marching orders. You've been fooled into believing their interests are yours.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
"The Big Guy" is not as in charge as he would like to be. Government still acts too fairly for his taste, policing things he would rather were not policed. Government is the only thing keeping him from dominating you utterly. He has tried to control government, but still fails, at least here in America where we still have rules. He would profit from your labors far more easily if he didn't have government trying to keep things fair. That is why "The Big Guy" hates government.
You and I hate government because "The Big Guy" HAS captured some of it. But the answer is not LESS regulations, as he would have you believe. That would only allow him to dominate us, and no group or individual would be powerful enough to stop him.
I want less domination by the powerful. Insofar as it is government dominating us, I want less of that. But government also protects us from domination, and I want more of that part. The free market is a good tool, but like any tool it requires attention and maintenance to keep it in working order. The powerful can dominate markets as easily as they dominate governments. Only regulations keep free markets free.
The powerful want a reduction in government because maintaining control over a fundamentally democratic structure is expensive and difficult, and prone to sudden catastrophic errors on their part or shifts in national mood which can set them back immensely. In addition, they will need to fight for control over any NEW programs the government enacts. That is why they hate change.
"They" do not want a reduction in military spending, you are right on that one. Ever notice what a hawk Obama is? Is Hillary any kind of a peacenik? That's one reason the corporate media marginalizes politicians like Kucinich, he's not a hawk.
Don't get me started on "sound money." It will likely degenerate into me hurling epithets at you in frustration over you being so god damn stupid. You mean specie backed currency, don't you? It's a prime example of the "simplistic solutions to complex problems." The problem with specie backed currency is that fluctuations in production and industrial demand will influence monetary supply. Economies are almost constantly growing. So is industrial demand for precious metals. You do the math. Don't think constant, random deflation would be a problem? Then you haven't thought it through.
The system we have is quite capable of producing sound money. We need an elastic monetary supply. Of course, we need it controlled democratically, rather than in the hands of fat cat bankers, and it should not be there to produce a profit, but to keep the economy stable.
Contrary to some opinion, "They" love decentralized power because they can pit localities against each other. They are already powerful. Naturally they want to weaken the only democratic structures large enough to really challenge them. They will move capital to the poorest, most desperate localities, allowing the rich areas to fall apart and become desperate. When the poor areas start to become wealthy, they will move to the next desperate location. We will all be serfs in a new global feudalism, with capital constantly fleeing wealthy areas in search of the next batch of desperate slaves.
They want free speech because they have free speech and they like it. Don't forget, they control media empires, you have one mouth, and perhaps a blog... that no one reads. Your free speech isn't the same as their free speech. And if they ever dislike like what you are saying, they can simply destroy your reputation and deny you all their access to the national consciousness.
I believe in the power of collective action to protect my interests and defend my rights, and I call it "government." I tend to think of myself as a social anarchist. Libertarians are individualist anarchists.
Anarchy does not mean chaos. The word has been co-opted. There is a reason libertarians won't identify as anarchists, even though they are. People like the Koch brothers want to cut off libertarianism from its a
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Lol.. He became president didn't he? I mean that's a lot more then most of us will ever do in our lifetime.
Lol.. He became president didn't he? I mean that's a lot more then most of us will ever do in our lifetime.
Funny, that's exactly what I expected you'd write.
And no. becoming president is not meaningful at all.
Plenty of scoundrels have become president.
Its just another job that in and of itself accomplishes nothing.
What matters is what someone does with the opportunities afforded by their job.
The list of destructive things Bush did with his job is pretty long.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
It's still a bigger achievement then most of us will ever accomplish. You are the one placing the arbitrary meaningful qualification to it.
If you don't believe me, ask yourself which sounds better on a job application for the last 8 years of employment. I was president of the United States of America, verses, I flipped burgers at burger town while living in mom's basement and going on line to argue and complain about everything that is wrong in this world.
Nuff said.
It's still a bigger achievement then most of us will ever accomplish. You are the one placing the arbitrary meaningful qualification to it.
Lol, I'll take that as admitting that you can't think of anything that he did that was worthwhile.
If you don't believe me, ask yourself which sounds better on a job application for the last 8 years of employment. I was president of the United States of America, verses, I flipped burgers at burger town while living in mom's basement and going on line to argue and complain about everything that is wrong in this world.
While we are making up arbitrary phrasing to rationalize our love of hierarchy... Which is going to sound better to Saint Peter? I was president of the united states of america during the single worst economy in the history of the country and caused the deaths of over 100,000 and maiming of over 500,000 people due to my direct orders to invade a country under false pretences OR I flipped burgers at burger town living in my mom's basement and lived a completely unremarkable life?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
No, take that as meaning the term worthwhile is subjective and is a requirement that I never placed when making the comment. I was avoiding it because it will just turn into a flame war from someone who is arguable trolling.
I think you got it without realizing it. Your requirement is arbitrary and subjective. Because you see, in my subjective world, I think St. Peter would appreciate the good that was done by removing the 500k people who were basically bad people for the most part.
Do you see how arbitrary and subjective that is? You made it sound like a christian saint would disagree with the killing of people from some other religion who is attempting to kill his religion's people. And the economy got shot to hell because they scammers and asshats making it difficult for the little people finally got taken down.
Do I need to get more subjective in this analysis? I mean seriously, it's nothing more at this point then what you want to see as good and bad verses what I want to see as good and bad. If this is the leg you are trying to stand on, then go troll somewhere else.
I think you got it without realizing it. Your requirement is arbitrary and subjective.
Lol, so you are saying that it is only in YOUR head that people put down Bush to feel better about themselves.
Thus admitting that your judgment of their actions is completely about yourself and not about them at all.
Kinda what I thought from the beginning, just surprised you copped to it.
I think St. Peter would appreciate the good that was done by removing the 500k people who were basically bad people for the most part.
You made it sound like a christian saint would disagree with the killing of people from some other religion who is attempting to kill his religion's people.
That is pure psychopathy.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You see, you are a complete idiot doing nothing but trying to bring others down in order to prop yourself up
lollers. The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
And why do you think this only applies to libertarians?
Dems: "increase minimum wages == more money for the poor" -- seems pretty simplistic, and just as deluded.
Repubs: "less bank regulations == success"
Dems: "health insurance companies are now required to accept all interested parties, regardless of pre-existing condition or risk" somehow equaling "cost savings" for the overall system?
Repubs: "tax cuts == boost in business"
Dems: Social Security & Medicare are _substantial_ proof-of-examples of failures of "large federally run social programs" -- yet they want _another_ one similarly run and bloated (aka latest healthcare bill).
Repubs: Bank deregulation
Dems: Billionaire Democrat: Warren Buffet. Billionaire: George Sorros. Sergey Brin, Democrat, Billionaire. Larry Page, Democrat, Billionaire Charles Koch, Democrat, Billionaire Kirk Kerkorian, Democrat, Billionaire Abigail Johnson, Democrat, Billionaire Ballmer, Steven, Democrat, Billionaire
(source: Yahoo Answers)
Repubs: Too many to count
Dems: ThinkProgress, Digg, Twitter, etc, etc
Repubs: FoxNews, Hannity, Rush, etc, etc
Something uniquely libertarian certainly would be nice as you've so far listed nothing that doesn't mar all politics/politicians across the aisle.
Perhaps it's more of you imposing your trollish beliefs into conversations in a way that you inject fallacy within your objectiveness.
Now go away and troll elsewhere.
Perhaps it's more of you imposing your trollish beliefs into conversations in a way that you inject fallacy within your objectiveness.
Dude, you write like the spittle is dripping off your monitor. The problem is with you by far.
It's particularly funny that you believe Bush is better than all of us because he is a recovered drug addict.
Talk about scratching the bottom of the barrel there, its like you are trolling yourself.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
well, then, lets just leave it at that and you can disappear.
well, then, lets just leave it at that and you can disappear.
Not just spittle-tastic but solipsistic too.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
lol.. You just couldn't resist trolling one more time could you.
lol.. You just couldn't resist trolling one more time could you.
Seriously? Are you really are so failing in self-awareness that you can't even recognise a mirroring of your own actions?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Minimum wage laws have a history of working. Find me something from a mainstream economist showing they don't.
The Dems never claimed the cost savings came from mandatory coverage. Not that I believe the program will save money, but it won't cost as much as the Repubs claim. Knowing the Repubs would claim it would cost several moons and body parts, the Dems had to claim it would save money.
Social Security and medicare are the most successful social programs in American history. I challenge you to prove they have failed.
Charles Koch is not a democrat! He is one of the main men funding libertarian think tanks. He is a RADICAL right winger. I don't personally know about the others, but I do not trust any of your examples now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Koch#Political_activities
Digg an twitter are Democratic? Hahahaha, oh, that is rich. In any case, your refrain of "I know you are but what am I?" is hardly a rational adult argument.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Perhaps if you made sense outside your own warped little mind, I could see that. However, you don't and I have attempted to end this thread more then 3 times only to have you jump back in with yet another lame ass claim of some sort that doesn't even begin to touch the topic at hand..
Go troll elsewhere. Try the third grade where your whit might be better matched.
Where do you get your data? Even a bare minimum of fact checking (aka Wikipedia) speaks to the contrary: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Minimum_wage
An analysis of supply and demand of the type shown in introductory mainstream economics textbooks implies that by mandating a price floor above the equilibrium wage, minimum wage laws should cause unemployment
Economists disagree as to the measurable impact of minimum wages in the 'real world'. This disagreement usually takes the form of competing empirical tests of the elasticities of demand and supply in labor markets and the degree to which markets differ from the efficiency that models of perfect competition predict.
Some leading economists such as Kevin M. Murphy and Nobel laureate Gary Becker do not accept the Card/Krueger results,[60] while some others, like Nobel laureates Paul Krugman[61] and Joseph Stiglitz do accept them as correct
Nobel laureate James M. Buchanan responded to the Card and Krueger study in the Wall Street Journal, arguing:[65] ...no self-respecting economist would claim that increases in the minimum wage increase employment
In a 2008 book, David Neumark and William L. Wascher described their analysis of over 300 studies on the minimum wage.[3] The studies were from several countries covering a period of over 50 years, primarily from the 1990s onward. According to the Neumark and Wascher, a large majority of the studies show negative effects for the minimum wage; those showing positive effects are few, questionable, and disproportionately discussed.
Until the 1990s, economists generally agreed that raising the minimum wage reduced employment. This consensus was weakened when some well-publicized empirical studies showed the opposite, although others confirmed the original view. Today's consensus, if one exists, is that increasing the minimum wage has, at worst, minor negative effects.[72]
According to a 1978 article in the American Economic Review, 90 percent of the economists surveyed agreed that the minimum wage increases unemployment among low-skilled workers
Ultimately, opinions are all over the board on the issue, which is exactly why I put it under the category of "simplistic solutions to complex problems". If it were truly that simple, we would just set everyone's minimum salary at 1 million. Problem solved.
Yet they claimed the bill overall would save money...even the CBO says this. If the "added risk without compensation" cost was not taken into consideration when determining how much money this bill is going to "save" us, I would say that adequately fits the category of "do not think through the implications of their policies". It is my impression that they were more concerned with "getting everyone healthcare" and "keeping people from being denied" than they were with cost-savings. And the fact they claimed (and continue to claim) we're ultimately going to save money from this is tentative at best (and an outright lie at worst).
They've almost single-handedly driven our debt to the level it is right now and they'll still on the verge of insolvency. People still do not have adequate retirement money and people still can't afford healthcare. By what standards do you define "successful"? I challenge you to prove they succeeded.
However, you don't and I have attempted to end this thread more then 3 times
No you haven't. Telling the other person to shut up is only an attempt to end a thread in the mind of a egotist.
Perhaps if you made sense outside your own warped little mind,
Lols. Dude the only reason I'm trolling you is to make the punishment fit the crime.
When you go around accusing people of being a troll simply because it hurts your brain to consider what they have to say, then the only thing left is to troll.
You bring it on yourself, especially because you are so easy to provoke -- troll, troll, herp, derp, troll, troll, dirkadirka, troll.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Do common and ordinary words mean anything to you at all? well, then, lets just leave it at that and you can disappear.
No, I accused you are being a troll because that is what you were doing. I made a statement that is backed largely by public opinion, added my opinion to it. You came about demanding conditions that were entirely arbitrary and subjective and couldn't deal with me not wanting to go down that path. When I finally did go down and list some things, you completely ignored them to jump to your next line of idiocy. You gave no one a taste of anything except your extreme lunacy.
Do you really think you provoked me? I mean seriously, I spotted you as a troll from your second post onward, made that notice public knowledge and refused to dive into your crap citing the flaws in it. It would seem that in your mind you are the master of third grade recess. Well, truthfully, I don't really care, most of us have grown up and moved on. If you are demanding that you be allowed to act like an immature ass using third grade logic, then go back to the playground and stop your insistent mental masturbation before you get all sticky.
No, I accused you are being a troll because that is what you were doing.
To the simplistic, sufficiently advanced concepts appear as nonsense.
Do you really think you provoked me?
You keep posting don't you? Loller, loller, get your lollers here.
Do common and ordinary words mean anything to you at all? well, then, lets just leave it at that and you can disappear.
Do motivations and ideas mean anything to you?
See how this works, I will 'try' to end the conversation now, "let's just leave it at that and you can disappear like the tool that you are."
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Are you thinking out loud or something? I mean that's a question you should be asking yourself.
You think everytime someone posts something it's because they were provoked? Wow.. Not only are you a troll, you're an idiot trying to troll.
Well, they do. Buy you would be a damn liar if you claimed you expressed either.
Ok, let's leave it at that then. BTW, when I said it, that was all I said. If you somehow think your troll here is remotely similar, you are foolishly wrong.
You think everytime someone posts something it's because they were provoked?
When they keep claiming to be trying to end the conversation than yes, that's exactly what I think.
Ok, let's leave it at that then. BTW, when I said it, that was all I said. If you somehow think your troll here is remotely similar, you are foolishly wrong.
When faced with the same "attempt" you jump back in with yet another lame ass claim of some sort that doesn't even begin to touch the topic at hand..
Why didn't you disappear like I commanded you to? Hypocrite.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
It would appear then that you think wrong.
See, above. and repeating what I said doesn't make it anywhere near relevant of accurate for you.
Unlike me, you added a lot of content to your statement. As I said before, you cannot compare what you did with what I did without showing how utterly ignorant you are. When I ended the conversation, I left your last statement standing and even said let's leave it at that. When you did it, you rambled on about how your inferior mind somehow creates some logic that you believe to be the best thing since sliced bread and that someone makes me in the wrong. You see, that completely different from what I did.
What I did was acknowledge that we weren't going to agree, skipped replying to your comment and stated that we should end the thread. What you did is continue to troll, totally and completely failed to present any clear argument or even remotely relevant discussion to what I had said, then act even more stupid then you have already by intentionally ignoring the obvious. I never commanded you to do anything. You never commanded me to do anything. What I did was fail to continue to argue with you. What you did was completely the opposite.
But hey, it's not like we both can't play your game. How about I start doing the same shit you are. I mean seriously, there's nothing stopping me and your concept is so unoriginal that it was obvious from the second post. It's up to you- I don't really care as I have almost as much time available as you might. I can even save time by recycling your own posts and just pasting the nonsense into threads you are actively engaged in.
If that's what you want, then just tell me. I know words are hard for you to understand and articulate so I'll try to interpret as best I can.
It would appear then that you think wrong.
Lollers.
Slave to your id I provoke you into writing at least 10x as many words in response.
When does the dumass realize he is nothing more than my dancing monkey?
I am starting to think you are mentally ill though, after all you did admit to living in your mother's basement and worshipping a drug addict.
Dance monkey! Dance for me!
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You know it's interesting. I'm not the one crying about posts being modded down after trolling people. Perhaps you should examine your own life before attempting to tear someone else' down in order to prop your own up.
Oh damn.. did we just get back to what I originally said?
You know it's interesting. I'm not the one crying about posts being modded down after trolling people.
Haha. Monkey boy admits to abusing mod points in futile attempt to release impotent anger.
Keep dancing for me monkey boy. Herp a derp.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I didn't admit to anything. I pointed out that your behavior is not very intelligent as others are telling you by the moderation you are getting. You can't see that and it appears to completely offend you because you start whining about it in threads under yourself.
I know you will continue to only consider what you can imagine in your mind no matter how fallacious it might be, but the dance is being done by you.. Perhaps you should examine the situation a little better.
I didn't admit to anything.
Only two people know that post was modded "troll" me and the modder - slashdot doesn't show that moderation type to anyone else.
My reply deliberately misrepresented it as an "overrated" mod, not "troll" as a dumbass trap. Look who it caught!
So yes, you admitted to doing EXACTLY the same thing you are bitching about here - trying to bring someone else down in order to make yourself feel good.
What a sad little life you must live - so full of impotent rage, so easily made to dance for my amusement.
I command you: dance another dance of denial and shame-hiding, make me laugh some more!
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Actually, anyone following the thread would know it was modded because that's how it works. you see a score and if you want to know the mods, you click on it and it shows the mod history for the post. Anyways all that super secret asinine spy shit to see what your post was modded wasn't needed. You see, you cried about it right underneath it. Does "Hah. Hey dipshit who modded my post down" sound familiar? And if you had half the reading comprehension skills you think you do, you would also notice I never said it was modded troll, I said you were crying about being modded down after trolling.
See above, then look in the mirror and then say "I will try not to be an idiot even though it's the most difficult thing to do in my life". Then repeat that ever fucking day you are alive.
lol.. I got you all worked up because of your own ignorance. Who's dancing now monkey? This is just so hilarious as your entire premise is based on your own ignorance of how mods work on slashdot. And now you are trying to make a statement that to anyone with half a clue knows is completely false.
You just don't get it do you? lol.. do you really want to play? I mean seriously, think about this. Do you really want to play this game when you obviously don't know how it's played?
So you laugh at your own mistakes huh.. That's good because I have been laughing at you too. Face it, you have been completely wrong about everything so far, this is so obvious that your mom should be able to point it out. Now you come on here and make a statement that is so unbelievable stupid that it makes you appear as if you just started surfing slashdot on the interweb last night. The funniest part is that you think you are winning.
I got you all worked up because of your own ignorance. Who's dancing now monkey?
You are, with another 10:1 provoked response.
All that verbiage and no one reads it. Not even me.
I keep winning and you are helpless to control your own fail.
Dance for me once more, I command it!
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
lol..
Blah, blah, blah.
So your measurement of content is saying the least. Well, that explains your intelligence problem. Now go cry about being modded down and act like you don't understand the obvious again.. Whah.....
lol..
Blah, blah, blah.
So your measurement of content is saying the least. Well, that explains your intelligence problem. Now go cry about being modded down and act like you don't understand the obvious again.. Whah.....
I've been informed by one of your friends that you have a mental disability.
Given that, its not fun to tweak you.
So I will now stop and I will even permit you to get the last word to make up for my cruelty.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.