Bad Science Writer Talks About the Placebo Effect *NSFW*

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Bad Science Writer Talks About the Placebo Effect NSFW

Posted by samzenpus on Tuesday January 18, 2011 @06:15AM from the I-want-to-believe dept.

The Guardian newspaper's Bad Science columnist Dr. Ben Goldacre does a stand-up routine about medicine, the placebo effect, and the mysteries of the human body at Nerdstock. From a scientific standpoint, I can't accurately say how funny it is because I was told it was great before I saw it.

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Is he really talking fast? by KPexEA · 2011-01-18 06:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Or do you just think he is because he said he was going to?
1. Re:Is he really talking fast? by ColdWetDog · 2011-01-18 06:25 · Score: 2
  
  Or do you just think he is because he said he was going to?
  Placebo effect
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
2. Re:Is he really talking fast? by northernfrights · 2011-01-18 07:14 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  All I know is that the speed of his mouth and the speed of my brain were neck and neck the whole time.
3. Re:Is he really talking fast? by a_nonamiss · 2011-01-18 07:26 · Score: 1
  
  I see what you did there. Funny!
  
  --
  -Arthur
  Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
4. Re:Is he really talking fast? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-18 09:20 · Score: 1
  
  That's just the Placebo effect... It's actually going so slow that it needed one year to reach Slashdot
5. Re:Is he really talking fast? by md65536 · 2011-01-18 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  I had skipped past where he said that, and I didn't even realize he was talking at all until I read your comment.
  Also, I didn't think that I was watching a video until I hit "preview" on my comment and read where I'd written about watching the video.
6. Re:Is he really talking fast? by BanjoLawson · 2011-01-18 13:57 · Score: 1
  
  Dr BenG appears to be like that always. Hyperfunctional hypomania.
Bad Science book by flynt · 2011-01-18 06:21 · Score: 4, Informative

I can highly recommend Ben's book "Bad Science". I bought a copy for each of my family members for the holidays. It gives a very realistic overview of the current state of medical research, both from the "mainstream" and "alternative" medicine worlds.
1. Re:Bad Science book by drfireman · 2011-01-18 09:21 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Let's not forget his column/blog (badscience.net).
2. Re:Bad Science book by syousef · 2011-01-18 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  I can highly recommend Ben's book "Bad Science". I bought a copy for each of my family members for the holidays. It gives a very realistic overview of the current state of medical research, both from the "mainstream" and "alternative" medicine worlds.
  Despite the standup routine, this story doesn't belong in idle.
  
  --
  These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
3. Re:Bad Science book by Simmeh · 2011-01-18 11:42 · Score: 1
  
  I had his book until my ex girlfriend burnt it in a ritual book burning of my belongings. Who said fundamentalism was dead? I also recommend his site www.badscience.net
4. Re:Bad Science book by caluml · 2011-01-18 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  I did the same. "My" copy is at my girlfriends, and I bought one for my Mum.
  
  --
  Get your own free personal location tracker
5. Re:Bad Science book by badkarmadayaccount · 2011-01-20 09:03 · Score: 1
  
  Whaaaat?
  
  --
  I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
6. Re:Bad Science book by RockDoctor · 2011-01-20 11:42 · Score: 1
  
  I had his book until my ex girlfriend burnt it in a ritual book burning of my belongings.
  I hope that she was an ex before you discovered her penchant for burning books. Dangerous animal. Back away carefully and make good your escape. Not human and not safe for sex.
  Try to get her to fuck a lawyer (another non-human animal form) and then look on from the sidelines as she burns his belongings and gets deeply fucked over herself.
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Wow by Philomage · 2011-01-18 06:22 · Score: 1

Those are some badass anecdotes.
Let me be the first to say: by Meneth · 2011-01-18 06:26 · Score: 1

Citation Needed.
1. Re:Let me be the first to say: by inpher · 2011-01-18 06:33 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Try a Google search for Ben Goldacre placebo
And now... by sconeu · 2011-01-18 06:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

I can't accurately say how funny it is because I was told it was great before I saw it.
And now, neither can the rest of us.

--
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
1. Re:And now... by Minwee · 2011-01-18 07:20 · Score: 2
  
  Don't worry. There's a pill you can take that will make that feeling go away.
2. Re:And now... by furrymitn · 2011-01-18 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  how is it not surprising, that in true /. fashion, both of those comments took place before reading/viewing TFA.
3. Re:And now... by proverbialcow · 2011-01-18 08:01 · Score: 2
  
  Not me - I just clicked on the video because I saw a link.
  
  What's this? A lemon party?
  
  --
  The only surefire protection against Microsoft infections is abstinence. - The Onion
4. Re:And now... by Chewbacon · 2011-01-18 08:56 · Score: 1
  
  I didn't think it was really that funny, but just amusing. I've read about placebo effects before and found stuff just as amusing. Like patients who were given placebos and told it was a narcotic showed trace indications of having the narcotic in their blood stream. Pretty boggling shit.
  
  --
  Chewbacon
  The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
Just another way to say by zzsmirkzz · 2011-01-18 06:37 · Score: 1

That thoughts create and manifest themselves in the physical world.
1. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  That thoughts create and manifest themselves in the physical world.
  Modern medicine is just shamanism, then, isn't it? Different totems, but same result - the believers heal themselves.
2. Re:Just another way to say by Maxo-Texas · 2011-01-18 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  It's nice to believe that but reality is a lot of drugs have measurable, repeatable effects that placebos don't create.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
3. Re:Just another way to say by austinpoet · 2011-01-18 06:54 · Score: 1
  
  shame it doesn't work for God
4. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  So... Didn't watch the video, did you?
5. Re:Just another way to say by Sockatume · 2011-01-18 07:01 · Score: 1
  
  The placebo effect causes physiological and behavioural changes in the believer, and through social interaction, those around them. However its effects are strongly bounded. You cannot arbitrarily generalise the observation, any more than I could suppose from the existence of gravity that all forces are attractive.
  
  --
  No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
6. Re:Just another way to say by Sockatume · 2011-01-18 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  I'm pretty sure that if you were to email Ben Goldacre right now claiming that all medicine's effectiveness is psychosomatic, you'd not get a very positive response.
  
  --
  No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
7. Re:Just another way to say by snookerhog · 2011-01-18 07:07 · Score: 2
  
  "Did you make mankind after we made you?"
  (thanks Andy)
8. Re:Just another way to say by RazzleFrog · 2011-01-18 07:28 · Score: 1
  
  He says beliefs can override the effects in some cases but he never said that the effects aren't real in the first place. I assure you that there are many drugs that do exactly what they say they do without any psychosomatic influence.
9. Re:Just another way to say by TastyCakes · 2011-01-18 07:30 · Score: 1
  
  If you actually believe this and are not just trolling, you are not familiar with anything Goldacre says. Much of his writing relates to homeopathy or "alternative medicine". He has an enormous amount of contempt for those people precisely because they try to convince people that their "medicines" - their placebo pills - are as effective as actual, properly tested drugs. So yes, this video suggests that the placebo effect is able to overpower the effects of certain drugs. But it very obviously does not show that believers always heal themselves by thought alone in modern medicine (or any flaky alternative medicine you care to list). Vitamin pills don't cure AIDS better than anti-retroviral-drugs, no matter how much you believe in them. That very example is the subject of this, a chapter of his book not published originally due to a lawsuit with its subject, Matthias Rath.
10. Re:Just another way to say by Gripp · 2011-01-18 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  most medicinal study's have control groups purely for the purpose of comparing results to the placebo effect - and are proven effective when the results are better than the placebo effect. so yes, they have a measurable, repeatable effect which the placebos do not. don't fool yourself into thinking that becuase this guy has proven to you that the body can heal itself given the proper motivation that all medicine is crap, that's simply not true.
11. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  I never said shamanism was crap, though. Without the power to induce the body to heal itself, then no, it clearly wouldn't work. But how it works becomes largely irrelevant in the face of the fact that it is the body itself doing all the work.
12. Re:Just another way to say by NatasRevol · 2011-01-18 08:00 · Score: 2
  
  Or that giving the patient a placebo *and letting them know that* is better than nothing, and better than most IBS medicine.
  http://ibs.about.com/b/2010/12/27/the-ibs-placebo-study.htm
  
  --
  There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
13. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 08:06 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, this too.
  I predict that we're exiting a dark age of medicine.
14. Re:Just another way to say by TastyCakes · 2011-01-18 08:26 · Score: 1
  
  No one is arguing that placebos don't have an effect, indeed that's what the video is all about. But it is stupid to say that all medicines are no more effective than placebos. It is stupid because unless you are incredibly uninformed, you must know that when they test medicines they test actual drugs against sugar pills, and if the people receiving the actual medicine don't do better than people on the placebo then the pill is a failure. By their very definition, drugs that have gone through medical trials are more effective than placebos.
15. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  But it is stupid to say that all medicines are no more effective than placebos.
  Yes, that would be stupid to say, but most strawman-paraphrases are, aren't they?
  I'm saying simply that the pill clearly does nothing. The human does it. Getting the human to do it will continue to be the trick. So it may well be that giving them the actual pill is the best way to get them to do it today, as opposed to the placebo. BUT the fact that the placebo works AT ALL is strong evidence that we're going to find another way to achieve this same result. We'll be able to get the human to heal without the pill, because again, the pill isn't ultimately responsible when you can get a human to do it without any medicine at all.
  It's nuanced, but I'm confident you could understand the difference between what I'm saying and what you're paraphrasing it to be - if you're willing to try.
16. Re:Just another way to say by Gripp · 2011-01-18 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  lol, got me.
17. Re:Just another way to say by Maxo-Texas · 2011-01-18 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  It's blocked at work and was just responding to the poster.
  Placebos DO have an effect.
  And after you've taken some real pills for a while, then placebos can even cause some effect similar to the medication.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
18. Re:Just another way to say by Maxo-Texas · 2011-01-18 09:13 · Score: 2
  
  It's the internet. He's just being a little fast and lose with his spelling.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
19. Re:Just another way to say by TastyCakes · 2011-01-18 09:17 · Score: 1
  
  The placebo effect is an amazing thing, and often can have significant positive results. But I think you're extrapolating its powers too far. There are limits to its impacts, limits that have been mapped out it many studies.
  
  It appears to me that you are making a strawman argument yourself, something along the lines of "Placebos can cure nausea and IBS etc. Placebos can cure anything!". Your base premise is wrong: people don't always heal themselves. Sometimes they do, but not always. There is no reason to believe that just because a placebo can treat IBS as well as a drug or surgery that a placebo could treat, say, cancer as well as a drug or surgery. In fact there are lots of well tested reasons to believe the contrary.
  
  I'm all for more effective placebos. In some cases they can show doctors and pharmaceutical companies how to better deliver actual medicine (for example, the colour of pills affects their effectiveness, for purely psychological reasons). But suggesting that medicines don't do anything, that it's all internal to the patient and we could somehow do away with drugs and just use psychological effects instead, is just wrong.
20. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 09:18 · Score: 1
  
  A specific example in the video has subjects getting more tense after taking muscle relaxers... Check it out when you get home.
21. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 09:35 · Score: 2
  
  Actually the base premise is factually infallible:
  Of the people that heal, they all heal themselves.
  Or, if you'd rather:
  A human body that will not heal cannot be helped by medicine of any sort.
  One more try, perhaps:
  Healing > Medicine
  My final point would be that we could be researching HOW the placebo effect works in order to harness that power without using placebos. Getting the body to heal itself would be the ultimate goal, and I believe that the observables within placebo effects can lead us down that path.
  Once those secrets are revealed, then not even cancer would be insurmountable, because again, exactly zero cancer patients who cannot heal have survived it. All of their bodies healed themselves. We need to figure out how to make that happen directly, and understanding the mind's impact on health would seem essential.
22. Re:Just another way to say by Maxo-Texas · 2011-01-18 11:19 · Score: 1
  
  I finally got to take SOMA for the first time in my life after a recent car accident.
  It was nice and my back didn't go into spasm.
  I went straight for muscle relaxers this time since last time (back in the 80's) my back was fine for a week and then went into spasm which lead to about 8 weeks of pain.
  I've also used ephedrine for skiing and it makes a huge difference.
  And I've used 4 hour nose spray for when I have a cold. The effect is real and nearly instantaneous.
  I may get time for the video- not sure. working 12 hour days right now.
  The fact that some people react a certain way to a certain drugs does not mean drugs in general are placebos.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
23. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-18 11:27 · Score: 1
  
  I understand your skepticism. Please, though, don't try and assuage the points without taking in the content. All you can possibly do is speculate, and since you're not necessarily some kind of expert in the matter, it isn't necessarily a productive use of our time.
24. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-18 13:38 · Score: 1
  
  Or that giving the patient a placebo *and letting them know that* is better than nothing, and better than most IBS medicine.
  Eh, I figured that out years ago. It used to be that whenever I got a cold, I'd go out and waste buttloads of money on all sorts of pills and liquids to try and get it to go away. Always thought they did a marvelous job. Then I became a skeptic and learned about the placebo effect, and figured out that they really weren't doing anything other than convincing me to feel better. So now I just have a cup of tea, and tell myself "this will make you feel better". Seems to work just as good as any of the other junk.
25. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-18 13:45 · Score: 1
  
  Of the people that heal, they all heal themselves.
  What a stupid thing to say. It would be just as accurate (and just as stupid) to state that, of the computers which recover from a virus, they all disinfect themselves.
26. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-19 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  Of the people that heal, they all heal themselves.
  What a stupid thing to say. It would be just as accurate (and just as stupid) to state that, of the computers which recover from a virus, they all disinfect themselves.
  How so? The former statement illustrates an observable, known feature of humanity. We heal. The latter statement is utterly false. Computers do not heal. Please do explain.
27. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-19 11:14 · Score: 1
  
  How so? The former statement illustrates an observable, known feature of humanity. We heal. The latter statement is utterly false. Computers do not heal. Please do explain.
  I'm sorry - I assumed that someone who comments on slashdot would be familiar with how computers work.
  You see, we have this thing called "anti-virus software" which is a bunch of bits that function as part of your computer, and work to fight off viruses. It's role within the host is quite similar to the function of white blood cells in the human body, though the mechanism is quite different. Check out www.avira.com and www.clamav.net for more info.
  Of course, even ignoring the existence of anti-virus software, a human typing "format c:" and then reinstalling windows on a computer is still just assisting - the computer is doing the actual "healing". Much like a doctor who opens up your leg, sews together nerve fibers and blood vessels, implants screws into the shattered bone, and then stitches you back up, is "just assisting" your body's "natural healing abilities".
28. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-19 11:37 · Score: 1
  
  Ah so if we do not apply software computers do not remove virii, and therefore if we do not apply medicine people do not heal?
  The latter part hasn't been my experience. And, seeing as humanity predates modern medicine by a wide, wide, wide margin, I assume I'm correct.
  Computers, on the other hand, are not organic. They weren't evolved in nature, and thereby lack any defense mechanisms whatsoever. They have no need of them, since they're not organisms and are merely tools.
  Looking back at your leg example. Without any doctor at all, is it impossible that the leg will see further use? Of course not. That sort of thing (depending on severity) can heal quite a bit on it's own. It may hobble you for life, but the organism can still eat, procreate, etc. Not so for a computer.
  In short it's genuinely just a bad analogy to compare a man-made object to an evolved organism...
29. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-19 11:58 · Score: 1
  
  Ah so if we do not apply software computers do not remove virii, and therefore if we do not apply medicine people do not heal?
  Eh? No, the antivirus is part of the computer. It heals itself! Start paying attention!
  
  The latter part hasn't been my experience
  You've obviously never performed CPR on anyone.
  
  Looking back at your leg example. Without any doctor at all, is it impossible that the leg will see further use? Of course not.
  You are, of course, correct. Assuming that you don't die of the ensuing infection - as most people have, historically - I'm sure your mangled and disfigured leg could be very useful in soliciting donations from passers-by, or for earning an income as a carnival freak. Likewise, your virus-infested computer could work just fine as a paper-weight or a door-stop.
  
  In short it's genuinely just a bad analogy to compare a man-made object to an evolved organism...
  Yes, but given that I was addressing the claim that "people all heal themselves", I really didn't feel the need to try very hard. First you need to make a comment that's worth taking seriously.
30. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-20 02:50 · Score: 2
  
  Your feigned disinterest is betrayed by your post count.
  Bad point is bad.
  Medicine is merely an aid to the underlying biological processes. Quality of life improvement, and little else.
31. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-20 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Your feigned disinterest is betrayed by your post count.
  I didn't say I'm not interested - I said I can't take you seriously.
  
  Bad point is bad.
  Yes, it is.
  
  Medicine is merely an aid to the underlying biological processes. Quality of life improvement, and little else.
  And homeopathy is a miracle cure.
32. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-20 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  And homeopathy is a miracle cure.
  AHH! There it is. I was wondering which axe you were looking to grind...
  I never made this claim, and never will. Indeed, I find homeopathy as entirely similar to most of modern medicine, chiropractic care, acupuncture, etc: If you believe in it, it might work. If you don't it probably won't.
  As amazing as that is, it holds entirely true.
33. Re:Just another way to say by c6gunner · 2011-01-20 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  AHH! There it is. I was wondering which axe you were looking to grind... I find homeopathy as entirely similar to most of modern medicine
  
  Actually, I didn't bring an axe, I just picked one up at random. But thank you for displaying your ignorance in such a spectacular fashion. You can hand in your geek card on the way out.
34. Re:Just another way to say by BobMcD · 2011-01-20 08:50 · Score: 1
  
  I genuinely don't require your approval and/or inclusion. Thanks though for assuming.
Nice by meerling · 2011-01-18 06:41 · Score: 1

I liked that. Either he's a really good speaker, or he's a mediocre speaker that's successfully put in a lot of work at getting better :)
Careful watching the video by elrous0 · 2011-01-18 06:50 · Score: 2

If you try to watch it all the way through, you'll get diarrhea.

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
1. Re:Careful watching the video by aquila.solo · 2011-01-18 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  Crap.
  
  Anybody have any spare drawers? Size *mumble mumble*?
2. Re:Careful watching the video by MrHanky · 2011-01-18 07:05 · Score: 2
  
  Mod parent up. I thought he was joking, but then I really got diarrhea towards the end.
3. Re:Careful watching the video by mathfeel · 2011-01-18 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  Because you were told you will get diarrhea by the parent, so your body produced one per your expectation.
  
  --
  The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
4. Re:Careful watching the video by Kaz+Kylheku · 2011-01-18 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  If you try to watch it all the way through, you'll get diarrhea.
  Why, do they play the brown note at the end?
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note
5. Re:Careful watching the video by sskagent · 2011-01-18 08:30 · Score: 1
  
  You're shitting me, really?
6. Re:Careful watching the video by alvinrod · 2011-01-18 08:31 · Score: 1
  
  Outside of that, of the thousands of people who've read that comment, there's a non-zero chance that one will develop diarrhea-like symptoms through natural causes. For all we know MrHanky just got done eating Taco Bell and has digestive system was going to get a kick in the gut regardless of the fact.
  
  If you tell people you're psychic and ask them to randomly choose a number between 1 and 100, eventually you will get it right and look absolutely brilliant.
7. Re:Careful watching the video by morgan_greywolf · 2011-01-18 08:37 · Score: 1
  
  I'm glad I watched the video all the way through before I read tha......uh, oh, gotta run the bathroom. BRB!
  
  --
  My blog
8. Re:Careful watching the video by Beezlebub33 · 2011-01-18 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, you stole that! See: http://xkcd.com/628
  
  --
  The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
Watch it here by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · 2011-01-18 06:56 · Score: 1

Here's a much better version of this performance with a good sound quality: 6Nerdstock: Nine Lessons and Carols for Godless People
1. Re:Watch it here by pacinpm · 2011-01-25 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe, I can't judge that because it was made private. :-(
Enjoy this one... by Bazman · 2011-01-18 06:58 · Score: 1

Seems the BBC didn't want to transmit this year's Nerdstock (aka Nine Lessons for Godless People). Oh well.
Thank God for MPlayer by pugugly · 2011-01-18 06:58 · Score: 1

Play at 80% speed, and you can understand the man.
Pug

--
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
1. Re:Thank God for MPlayer by Sarten-X · 2011-01-18 08:30 · Score: 1
  
  Think at 125% speed, and you can understand the man.
  
  --
  You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
I wish we had television like this in the US by acidradio · 2011-01-18 07:00 · Score: 1

It is hard for me to fathom television in which something relevant and intelligent is presented, with a slight bit of profanity (just enough but not too much) and where the crowd is excited to hear it. Instead I turn on my television in the US and see the bitter dregs of society: The Real Housewives of ..., Jersey Shore, anything on the Oprah network, etc. Perhaps Dr. Goldacre has a placebo cure for those kinds of shows?
1. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by RazzleFrog · 2011-01-18 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps you are watching the wrong channels? There is intelligent TV out there. You just have to know where to look.
2. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by evilbessie · 2011-01-18 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  Ah how you must want the BBC.
3. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by RazorSharp · 2011-01-18 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  Really? Where? Or are you just going to keep that secret to yourself? South Park is about the most intelligent thing I've seen on my selection of channels.
  
  --
  "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
4. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by acidradio · 2011-01-18 08:01 · Score: 1
  
  What I would give to have at least SOME of the BBC channels. We do have BBC America and I watch it religiously. But I could go for more, lots more.
5. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by 1s44c · 2011-01-18 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  BBC iplayer?
6. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by RazzleFrog · 2011-01-18 08:55 · Score: 1
  
  Did you watch Planet Earth or Life on Discovery? A lot of the stuff on Nat Geo and the Science Channel is interesting, too. If you are looking more for debunking you can watch Bullshit by Penn & Teller. I guess it depends on what you are looking for. Sometimes you just have to flip around.
7. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-18 09:08 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, Planet Earth and Life were created by the BBC. Discovery partially funded the project and used US actors for the US release.
8. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by RazzleFrog · 2011-01-18 09:14 · Score: 1
  
  You can still watch it on US televisions which was the point.
9. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by jo_ham · 2011-01-18 09:23 · Score: 1
  
  BBC iPlayer is geo-locked. It's the modern internet equivalent annoyance - while once it was animated gifs and midi files embedded into web pages, now it is video services that refuse to play content if you are outside a specific geographical area.
  You can get around them with proxies, but it's annoying. I can't watch clips of The Daily Show on the website, for example, because they are not available to viewers in the UK (at the request of Channel 4).
10. Re:I wish we had television like this in the US by WarwickRyan · 2011-01-18 09:41 · Score: 2
  
  > Ah how you must want the BBC
  Don't worry, the quality of the BBC's output is going downhill at record places.
  The Wikileaks news coverage was closer to Fox News than it was BBC News circ 2005.
  BBC One is now 24-7 cooking, property, reality or any combination of the three. Preferably with dancing.
  BBC Two seems to be repeats of BBC One, plus snooker or darts.
  BBC Three and BBC Four are where the quality content is to be found.... so the BBC have decided to close them to cut costs.
Citations Granted by eldavojohn · 2011-01-18 07:05 · Score: 2

Could not find the vomiting study in the rotating drum but I believe the muscle relaxant study was of Carisoprodol and can be found at this PDF. The asthma placebo effect study appears to be this study on this new bronchodilator.

If you're saying "citation needed" to imply that the placebo effect is not real, then I ask you why so many reputable institutions almost require a placebo group? It's obviously so they are capable of renormalizing the results to account for the placebo effect and not wrongly attribute their drug to something the patients caused themselves to believe they felt or to actually feel.

I might take issue with his claim that the placebo effect 'caused the muscle relaxant molecules to be more effective in relaxing the muscles' (or however he rambled it) as I have always thought that the placebo effect operated on a psychosomatic or neurological level.

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My work here is dung.
1. Re:Citations Granted by pesho · 2011-01-18 09:07 · Score: 2
  
  Here is the reference for the 1 vs 2 sugar pills effect on ulcers study (it is actually 2 vs 4 pills). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014313/
2. Re:Citations Granted by MHolmesIV · 2011-01-18 12:36 · Score: 1
  
  He said that the people who took the muscle relaxant, and were _told_ they were getting the muscle relaxant had higher concentrations of the muscle relaxant in their blood plasma than the other two groups that also received an identical dose of the muscle relaxant.
  That part is fact. He speculated on what could cause this. But just the fact by itself is pretty freaky.
Re:No titties by hoggoth · 2011-01-18 07:17 · Score: 1

> Why is this marked NSFW?
Ask me again while Ben Goldacre is skull fucking you with his data-cock.

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- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
Re:Fast talker by Somewhat+Delirious · 2011-01-18 07:18 · Score: 2

only one, but they told him it was speed.

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The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
Well of course the body helps by fluor2 · 2011-01-18 07:24 · Score: 1

The mind have various strings it can pull to produce and help the body. E.g. we all know that if we want to get excited, you can make the body release adrenaline. The body and mind is somehow defined as a dead tool of some, however I think it's time we accept that the mind and body is a living organism designed to react and behave by stimulants beyond drugs.
so, what he tell is hardly surprising.
1. Re:Well of course the body helps by RazzleFrog · 2011-01-18 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  I think the fact that the placebo effect can completely override the real effect is pretty surprising. I can understand them netting out perhaps but that they actually were MORE tense than the placebo group is pretty amazing.
Re:I only watched the first 5:30 of this video by iammani · 2011-01-18 07:34 · Score: 1

Try 5:31
In review - Meh by pugugly · 2011-01-18 07:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

Not that I don't find placebo effects interesting, but what is it about a certain species of skeptic that says (in this case, explicitly says) they think the concept of people healing themselves through mental processes, whether you call it psychic or otherwise, is uninteresting and entirely unscientific to investigate.
Call the same thing "The Placebo Effect" however, and suddenly it's fascinating and scientific?
WTF Over?
Pug

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An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
1. Re:In review - Meh by zzatz · 2011-01-18 09:17 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  The influence of the mind on the body is interesting, and well worth studying. What's not worth studying are the bullshit explanations that people come up with to psychically move money from the gullible to the promoters.
  Here are examples from a more easily studied area: perception of sound. The placebo effect is easily demonstrated with various audiophile gadgets and gimmicks. Make a change and it really does sound better. Or, more accurately, you perceive that it sounds better, because you expected it to sound better. But when blind tests are done, the difference can't be detected. Except when it is, which is why the change has to be hidden not only from the subject, but from the experimenter, to prevent the experimenter from unknowingly influencing the subject. It's amazing how people can no longer tell the difference between two devices when the tests are double-blind.
  Some differences are real, that is, can be reliably detected using double blind tests. But the explanations may be nonsense. Some people prefer vinyl to digital, or vacuum tubes to solid state. There's nothing wrong with preferences. But to claim that one is more accurate than the other is not preference, that's a claim that can be measured. Vinyl has limited accuracy, easily exceeded by inexpensive digital audio devices. It's OK to prefer the sound of LPs, it's not OK to claim that they are more accurate. It is well known that some sounds may be more pleasing with certain changes made; boost the mid-bass, add a little second harmonic, and so forth.
  The placebo effect is real. Homeopathy is a scam that uses the placebo effect. We can have the benefits of the placebo effect without rip-offs and mumbo-jumbo.
2. Re:In review - Meh by Spad · 2011-01-18 09:29 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe because the Placebo and Nocebo effects have been repeatedly shown to exist in rigorously controlled double-blind scientific studies, we just don't really understand the mechanism by which they operate, whereas people saying that they use their psychic powers to cure people never stand up under rigorously controlled double-blind scientific studies?
  To put it another way; just because taking a homoeopathic remedy gets rid of your headache doesn't mean that homoeopathic remedies work, because taking a sugar pill that you've been *told* was a homoeopathic remedy for headaches would have the same effect.
3. Re:In review - Meh by Peeteriz · 2011-01-18 09:49 · Score: 2
  
  Anything that actually happens is 'scientific' enough to investigate.
  Nature and the truth doesn't care about what seems reasonable and interesting - what works, works, and should be studied scientifically.
4. Re:In review - Meh by 1+a+bee · 2011-01-18 17:36 · Score: 1
  
  We can have the benefits of the placebo effect without rip-offs and mumbo-jumbo.
  How? It's the very fact that the people are deceived that empowers placebo. You MUST have believed deception to make placebo work in any fashion.
  Not quite. The current wisdom is that You Can Have the Placebo Effect, Even If You Know It's a Placebo.
  -
  Remind me again, why is this story in the idle section?
5. Re:In review - Meh by swillden · 2011-01-18 18:00 · Score: 1
  
  We can have the benefits of the placebo effect without rip-offs and mumbo-jumbo.
  Unless the rip-offs and mumbo-jumbo are what convince the person that the placebo will work.
  
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6. Re:In review - Meh by Namarrgon · 2011-01-18 19:17 · Score: 1
  
  Placebo works if you think it's going to work. If you're given a pill that actually does work - and you're told it's going to work - then you get placebo + physical, for double-plus effectiveness.
  In fact, from what Dr Ben said, if people feel the drug taking effect, that enhances the placebo effect even more - even if the drug is actually having the opposite effect. The placebo effect can be so strong it can actually override any opposite effect of the drug - but if the drug is really doing what they believe it is, the resulting combined effect is enhanced most of all.
  It's not that "medicine" like homeopathy doesn't help people (thanks solely to the placebo effect), it's that it's a) way overpriced for what it is (i.e. pure water), and b) that money could be spent on real, effective medicine that actually helps people in addition to the placebo effect (and in fact reinforces the placebo effect even further).
  
  --
  Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
7. Re:In review - Meh by Puff_Of_Hot_Air · 2011-01-18 20:24 · Score: 1
  
  How have you addressed the parent post? The placebo effect has real physiological effects that have been researched and documented. Audiophiles simply think they hear an improvement, whilst being demonstrably wrong. Thinking your hear something is not interesting. Thinking a sugar pill will make you well, actually making you well, is very interesting indeed.
8. Re:In review - Meh by pugugly · 2011-01-27 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  So what your saying is that homeopathy, psychic healing, et al is not scientifically acceptable because it doesn't beat the scientifically verified Placebo effect . . . which has no known mechanism, is growing markedly stronger and harder to overcome in current studies, but which is scientific because the term is derived from Latin rather than Greek.
  Thanks for your clarification . . . wait, what?
  {G} - Pug
  
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  An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Re:Further Weird Placebo Effect by Mindcontrolled · 2011-01-18 18:20 · Score: 1

Not that surprising - the placebo effect is probably based on the release of endomorphines, that is, pain-killing substances that are naturally produced by the body. They work by the same mechanism as morphine itself, so the morphine antagonist given also blocks the endomorphines, thereby blocking the placebo effect.

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Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Don't worry by LostMyBeaver · 2011-01-18 20:32 · Score: 1

It wasn't funny, it was British :)

On the other hand, this guy should start reading for a collegiate text audio book company. I think his extremely rapid speech is much better than speeding up a normal audio book. This way, you can cover a chapter or two of text reading while driving to class.
Related wierdness by clickclickdrone · 2011-01-18 22:47 · Score: 1

From another Dr Ben item, research has found that if a given tried and tested drug shows say 80% effectiveness in patients and a new 'improved' one comes out, the previous one stops being so effective by quite a margin. Only the latest newest one works best.

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I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
1. Re:Related wierdness by RockDoctor · 2011-01-20 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  Does that work in a study population who do not know of the existence of the new, improved drug?
  
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  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Not just drugs by wiedzmin · 2011-01-20 10:02 · Score: 1

Placebo effect applies to other things too. For example, most elevator "close doors" buttons have been "wired" to do absolutely nothing for the past 20 years or so.

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Bow before me, for I am root.