Motorola Sticks To Guns On Locking Down Android

What a great way to die by aliquis · 2011-01-19 13:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hundreds of thousands of potential costumers go "ok."

Re:What a great way to die by chaffed · 2011-01-19 13:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

However, for that to happen, people need to care.
For the vast majority of the smart phone crowd, they do not care. Just as long as they can get that "urgent" work email, post a picture of their lunch and tweet about how tired they are in the evening.

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What could possibly go wrong?
Re:What a great way to die by TheRealGrogan · 2011-01-19 13:57 · Score: 4, Informative

I despise Motorola and their rubbish. My parents had motorola phones previously, and they were so proprietary they wanted $90 for a program just to let us transfer pictures from the phone to the computer.
I dicked around (for hours) trying to get a home grown solution working and finally just gave up. It involved installing a driver from motorola (deeply buried on their web site), and a third party app for accessing it. All it did was hang. What I learned (but wasn't sure if I believed) was that even the USB cable was proprietary and while it was the same connection as a camera cable, it was wired differently.
So I don't particularly care what they say and do, there will be no more Motorola devices in this household anyway.
The folks have since switched to Blackberries.
Long before this, I hated Motorola for their shitty modems. Some of the worst rubbish that I have ever had the pleasure of tossing in the garbage.
Re:What a great way to die by h4rr4r · 2011-01-19 14:27 · Score: 4, Informative

There are something like a million downloads of cyanogen mod. Even if that is the same folks downloading each release you are still looking at hundreds of thousands. That is one ROM, not all of them.
Re:What a great way to die by Microlith · 2011-01-19 14:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

And this apathy is what they're all banking on. They can tighten down the screws and leverage the masses an excuse to do so. This is true for Microsoft, Apple, Motorola, and every vendor that forces you to root.
They want to do this to PCs, and I expect the push and attack on standard, uncrippled PCs to step up in the next few years. It's far more profitable that way.
Re:What a great way to die by dlgeek · 2011-01-19 14:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

In other words, a manufacturer is selling a product that does exactly what the vast majority of it's customers want.
Re:What a great way to die by PopeRatzo · 2011-01-19 15:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

Are we really so weak that we absolutely cannot do without a smart phone until manufacturers actually start giving us what we want? I mean, we're the goddamn customers. Vote with your feet.
Some company's going to do the right thing and that's the phone you buy. That's all. You're not going to die if you wait a few more months to buy an Android phone. Or, you can do what I did, and buy a wi-fi only handheld device and use your regular phone because who wants a phone with 4 hours of battery life anyway? Do you really want to have to run to an AC outlet as soon as the plane lands so you can make a call just because you wanted to watch two movies on a cross-country flight?
There is power in being a consumer, and it's astounding that people have been so diddled by advertisement and marketing voodoo that they won't even consider using that power to get what they want.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:What a great way to die by AchilleTalon · 2011-01-19 15:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

Since the vast majority of the smart phone crowd just don't care, why did Motorola spent so much time to make sure they have a technology to prevent it? I mean, if peoples don't care, there is no reason to make sure they can't. And for the rest of us, what's the problem?

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Achille Talon
Hop!
Re:What a great way to die by postbigbang · 2011-01-19 15:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have a Moto Droid 2. I rooted it. It works FINE. Not bricked. It's using at most, a nice tethering app. Does all I want.
If I wanted a playground, I would have bought a park.
This is my experience. Yours will vary.

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---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Re:What a great way to die by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-19 17:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Posting anonymously because I work for a company vaguely related to all this.

The only purpose of this is to allow them to use the next version of Android as a selling point ...
I'm not entirely sure that's true. I've been watching this for a few years, and I have this weird impression that this is all because wireless carriers, like cable companies, need to feel ... special. And that's really all there is to it.
Really. Take cable companies. Comcast wants to be your main squeeze, selling you a DVR and a selection of channels, and not just be a dumb pipe through which bits flow. Because deep down, that's all they are: a bit pusher. If it really came down to it, you could get (or build) any old DVR, and/or stream Hulu and Netflix, and/or do the torrent thing. It's all just data, so that's really all Comcast is: a bit pusher. And let's be clear: being your personal bit pusher would be a great job for a cable company. It's vital to the economy. But the cable companies don't want this job, even though they already have it and are making a killing on it. They think it's beneath them.
The wireless carriers are the same way: they want to be special. They're not mere bit pushers (even though you and I know they really are, and even though we know the bit-pushing job is perfectly respectable and important). No, they want you to love them. Verizon, for example, wants you to really HEART the fact that you have a Verizon phone with a stupid red checkmark as its default wallpaper. And Motorola is catering not to you and me, but to these poor, sorry carriers who don't want to accept that they're just bit pushers, and want to feel loved.
OK, end of rant.
Re:What a great way to die by rk · 2011-01-19 17:33 · Score: 5, Funny

What's wrong with Angry Birds? I run that all the time on my Droid running CyanogenMod-6.1.2 when I have a few minutes to kill and don't feel like reading, thankyouverymuch. Rooting your phone and mindless entertainment are not orthogonal activities, after all.
Re:What a great way to die by eggnoglatte · 2011-01-19 19:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yeah, you can keep telling yourself this - everybody who doesn't want exactly what you want clearly doesn't have a clue.
Here is a reference point: I am a computer scientist, I've been using Linux both professionally and privately on the desktop for almost exactly a decade now. But the very last thing I want of a phone is yet another device to upgrade or configure a kernel for, or worry about malware and viruses. Locked down sounds pretty good to me. I just want to have access to email wherever I go, I don't buy a lot of apps (I have 4 total), and I am not going to start developing for the darn thing. There is only so much time in a day, and the phone is one device that I don't want to have to fiddle with to have it work.
Re:What a great way to die by gmack · 2011-01-19 21:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

They have that and it's called GeeksPhone. The price for mine was better than Google's developer handset and even though it originally came with Android 1.5 they have provided 2.2 (Froyo) and 2.3(Gingerbread). It comes rooted and their forums will happily help you with whatever mod you want to attempt.
I no longer care what Motorolla or anyone else does because I have a phone that does what I want.
Re:What a great way to die by Haeleth · 2011-01-19 22:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

Some company's going to do the right thing
I admire your faith in humanity.

Or, you can do what I did, and buy a wi-fi only handheld device and use your regular phone
Which is totally useless if the reason you are interested in a smartphone is so you can, I dunno, use the internet everywhere or something. Maybe you live in some magical land with free wifi everywhere and you never go travelling at all, but most of us aren't so lucky.

Do you really want to have to run to an AC outlet as soon as the plane lands so you can make a call just because you wanted to watch two movies on a cross-country flight?
You watch movies on your phone? How strange. Most of us use the movie-watching device handily built into the seat in front, or a laptop if we want to bring our own.

There is power in being a consumer
Yeah, like there's power in being a voter. But I don't see many supporters of minority parties celebrating because their interests are being represented in Congress.
Re:What a great way to die by sveinungkv · 2011-01-19 23:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

What do you think is the most likely reaction of a politician when he hears about this technology that makes it impossible for a user to change the software on his devices? Will it be to ban it or to make it obligatory so the government can put stuff in your firmware. (Only to be used against terrorists and pedophiles of course. (At least in the beginning. (At least officially.)))

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Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)
Re:What a great way to die by sveinungkv · 2011-01-20 00:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

There is power in being a consumer
Yeah, like there's power in being a voter. But I don't see many supporters of minority parties celebrating because their interests are being represented in Congress.
The beauty of the free market compared to democracy is that you don't need to be in the majority to get what you want. The majority can buy from Motorola and others while you can freely buy from the those that cater to you. Personally I have an OpenMoko Freerunner. If you want something newer you could have look at GeeksPhone, Nokia 900 or one of the many other phones out there to see if they are free enough for you.

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Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)

Dump your Motorola stocks by Ariastis · 2011-01-19 13:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

A company who tells its clients to go buy from someone else is usually on the way out...

Re:Dump your Motorola stocks by Bogtha · 2011-01-19 14:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Apple have this exact attitude and they just posted a record revenue of $26bn for this quarter, beating Wall St estimates by $2bn. Looking at their iPhone sales alone, they are the largest mobile phone vendor in the world by revenue. They have $60bn in cash reserves and no debt.
All other things being equal, sure, more customers = more profit. But all other things are rarely equal, so summing an entire company's future up into one single factor is idiotic.

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Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Re:Dump your Motorola stocks by vikstar · 2011-01-19 15:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

Apple has the opposite attitude. They don't say "buy elsewhere" they say "by our stuff instead because ..." and then continue with 20% truth.
Motorola's mistake is that they're telling people to "buy elsewhere" instead of just lying to everyone like Apple does.

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The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.

"Then buy elsewhere" by SquirrelDeth · 2011-01-19 13:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Fine I will.dumbasses

Re:Is that a challenge? by Seumas · 2011-01-19 13:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

The ones who know what they're doing aren't the masses. They're the ignorable minority.

Great! by fotbr · 2011-01-19 13:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

Let 'em fail. It wasn't that long ago that motorola could barely GIVE their phones away.

Misleading Headline. by mjwx · 2011-01-19 13:49 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is not locking down Android, this is locking down a Motorola Handset.

Hardware lock down, not software. Pretty big distinction.

But Motorola has jumped the shark. HTC are offering better handsets and MotoBlur is a complete joke. I liked my Milestone too, but due to Motorola's insistence on locking it down I wont be buying the Milestone 2. HTC Desire Z looks a lot better.

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Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.

Re:Misleading Headline. by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-01-19 14:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

What's the practical difference though ? The big advantage of Android compared to iPhone, I'm always told, is that it's open and there are so many different models to choose from. But what remains of those advantages when you have to eliminate a lot of phones because they are just as locked down and then have to research the remaining models to see which can be rooted, what the difficulties are, etc. ?

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
Re:Misleading Headline. by h4rr4r · 2011-01-19 15:02 · Score: 3, Informative

That you can get a Nexus and have the open experience. No iPhone model like that.

Bootloader Feedback Policy by Vap1d- · 2011-01-19 13:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

Seems that sentiment was pretty quickly retracted. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=495971028278

Re:Is that a challenge? by teh31337one · 2011-01-19 13:59 · Score: 5, Informative

The e-fuse has a 1024 bit RSA key. Good luck trying to brute force that.

But if you want to waste electricity, you can sign up for the efforts to brute force Motorola Milestone - their first phone to feature this draconian lockdown.

Re:Who should I buy from? by teh31337one · 2011-01-19 14:02 · Score: 4, Informative

Go for the Nexus S - they're the most dev friendly. You'll also find that HTC phones are also supported pretty well, even though they have a similarly draconian nandlock in place. It's just been cracked :)

Re:Dumbfounded...... Can anyone explain? by Spykk · 2011-01-19 14:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

e-fuse doesn't stop you from rooting your phone and installing wireless-tether. e-fuse is there so that Motorola can stop releasing kernel updates when the droid 3 comes out so that you are forced to buy a new phone if you want the latest version of android.

Re:welcome to the future by martin-boundary · 2011-01-19 14:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

That's why the GPLv3 is so important. There are two trends going on here: there's locking down of software to prevent hacking and keep monopoly control on the devices, but there's also the use of free software components.

Without free software to do the heavy lifting, the phone manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete at the same price point in the market, so free software developers actually have some leverage to prevent lockdowns in the future.

But for that, the community must be smart and use the right kind of license, eg GPLv3, but not BSD. If the Linux/embedded systems developers drop the ball and continue to use the wrong kinds of licences (GPLv2 is not good enough), then the future you talk about will certainly happen.

The word 'e-fuse' doesn't mean what you think by pslam · 2011-01-19 14:15 · Score: 5, Informative

The strategy they are referring to is a feature Motorola pioneered called 'e-fuse', the ability for the phone's CPU to stop working if it detects unauthorized software running.

Oh not this bullshit again. This was first published by an ill-informed "hacker" a while back and regurgitated by every blog in the world with no fact checking.

Here's what an e-fuse is: a write-once programmable bit.

Here's what they're typically used for: unique IDs (serial number), RAM repair (mark bad rows etc), feature selection, keys, miscellaneous factory config things.

Here's what you find with e-fuses in them: almost every CPU in the world, probably all of the SoCs used by Motorola's competitors, probably every SoC in every cell phone.

Here's what they're not used for: bricking devices.

Motorola has even stated very clearly that they never intend to completely brick a device if it detects an unauthorized ROM. It'll just need restoring. The SoCs Motorola uses are in no way pioneering e-fuses. Someone just read a gigantic amount of conspiracy into the tiniest of press release. This is OLD technology. Can this lie please go away?

Re:The word 'e-fuse' doesn't mean what you think by Tacvek · 2011-01-19 14:22 · Score: 5, Informative

Correct. The actual technology here is TI's M-Shield, a feature of the OMAP processors. Motorola was just one of the first to use it in a noticeable application. M-Shield which lets OEMs burn a public key into a set of ordinary e-fuses, which the processor will use to verify a boot-loader signature, falling back on a recovery firmware if the signature is not valid.

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Re:welcome to the future by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-01-19 14:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

Without free software to do the heavy lifting, the phone manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete at the same price point in the market, so free software developers actually have some leverage to prevent lockdowns in the future.

Here's a newsflash for you: Google created Android to make sure they have a presence in the lucrative mobile market and could care less about "open" and "free." The reason Android was released as open source is to take advantage of the geek word-of-mouth (or geek internet press) and the geek anti Apple backlash. There won't be any "leveraging" done. I guess this is the point where a a bunch of disillusioned geeks get together and vow to create a 100% pure open(tm) alternative (ETA: 2015.)

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.

Re:Which smartphone for OS development? by teh31337one · 2011-01-19 14:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Nexus S

Re:welcome to the future by icebraining · 2011-01-19 14:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Android's core is composed of the Linux kernel and the Apache Harmony libraries. They don't get to decide the license of those - and any code of the kernel they modify and distribute _must_ be released under the same license (GPLv2).

If Torvalds et all changed the kernel's license to GPLv3, Google and the phone manufacturers would either have to comply with it or stop upgrading.

So thinking that Google holds all the keys is wrong.

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Update to article by Georules · 2011-01-19 14:52 · Score: 4, Informative

This article needs an update. Motorola has already officially apologized for the youtube admin's tone.

Re:Update to article by John+Jamieson · 2011-01-19 16:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think they said they were sorry... is that the same as an apology?
I really think they are only sorry that this is a big black eye, and is going to hurt in the morning.
"The response does not reflect the views of Motorola." can be translated as "our responses should not piss off customers"
This just seems like damage control to me, an apology means they are sorry about What they have done, not just sorry about the consequences of a poorly worded but truthful response.

Fractional Users by Roger+W+Moore · 2011-01-19 14:55 · Score: 5, Funny

That isn't what they are saying, it is just what the 0.0000000000000003% of users that might want to install their own OS

Got a little carried away with the zeroes there did we? Even if everyone on the planet owned a Motorola phone that would be about 20 billionths of one user who is understandably going to be rather upset when several thousand brain cells attempt to install their own OS.

Re:welcome to the future by M.+Baranczak · 2011-01-19 15:13 · Score: 4, Informative

We've been over this. Torvalds can't change the kernel to GPLv3, because the copyright is owned by a thousand different contributors.

Re:Is that a challenge? by mug+funky · 2011-01-19 15:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

i get quite annoyed at the constant arrogance and elitism on /.

sorry to burst your bubble - this isn't an elite site, and the "99% of the masses" argument is pure shit that i hear everywhere all the time, in many different disciplines.

whenever someone asks me to recommend them a TV, the conversation will lead to "nobody would ever notice that", but yet we're talking about it and a choice about what to buy is being made based on it.

what do the masses do when they need advice? they ask that nerd friend of theirs. if the nerd has communication skills slightly above the lower end of the Autism Spectrum, the masses will even get a useful answer.

be honest, how many times have you heard a friend say something to the effect of "i'm looking for a smartphone but i don't want an iPhone... what should i get?".

consider each time someone asks that as a lost sale for Motorola...

i don't think it'll kill their business, but their overall crap products certainly are having an effect, and political issues such as this (yes! political! not technical and therefore outside the grasp of the average simian on the street!) will certainly make a large dent in the long run.

Re:Is that a challenge? by mea_culpa · 2011-01-19 15:28 · Score: 5, Informative

That link is for the old project.
Here is a link to the new AndrOINC Project

Dirty Secret - Carriers want this, not Motorola by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-19 16:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Motorola does not want to lock them down, the carrier(s) are forcing them to. I have inside info from a dev about this, and I've argued with him about it at length angrily. Unfortunately, their hands are tied, it's the carrier's way or the highway.

If you want to be upset at anyone, be angry at e.g. Verizon. People need to fight the carriers on this, it's about our freedom!!

Re:Is that a challenge? by Opportunist · 2011-01-19 17:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

Quite the opposite, we're very uninteresting as customers.

Do we buy ringtones? No, we know how to make our own (provided we care about them altogether).

Do we buy background pics? No, same applies.

Do we buy applications? Rarely. More often than not, we'd know a free alternative.

We're not really the dream customer of someone trying to peddle phone crap.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Apple doesn't sell a commodity by rsborg · 2011-01-19 20:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

Motorola plays in the commodity Android space. You know, where features rule and competition is fierce.

Apple doesn't play by those rules and makes up their own... but they write their own OS, design their own chip, and create a unique product out of the whole mess.

Apple "gets away" with their arrogance because they have something other companies don't... and consumers like what they have.

What has Moto done lately that HTC or Samsung can't match?

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Open or "open" by leuk_he · 2011-01-20 01:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Androids big advange is that is is open (compared to iPhone). All apps can run upon i without approval from the apple app store border. That does not make iPhone bad, it can still give a very good expierence.

But if you have an adroid phone, that is supposed to be open , and then you start locking a (big) part down, then you are limping: You don't have the advantage of an completely open platform and you don't have the advantage of closed expensive controlled fantasy environment of the iPhone.

If you do a thing, do it good. iPhone is a good closed platform.
Android is a good open platform.
Motorola is good at ?? making deals with carriers???

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Motorola Sticks To Guns On Locking Down Android

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