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Italian Consumer Watchdog Sues Microsoft Over 'Windows Tax'
An anonymous reader writes with this quote from El Reg:
"[An] Italian consumer watchdog is suing Microsoft over the 'Windows Tax' – the near impossibility of an ordinary user getting a refund if they decide to delete Microsoft's software from a new computer or laptop. The class action case says Microsoft makes it too difficult for people who buy a computer with Microsoft software on it to remove that software and get their money back. Most users do not realise that starting the software means you have accepted the end user licence."
I recently bought a Sony VAIO laptop. I was somewhat surprised to see that Windows 7's license agreement now says "contact the manufacturer and find out their refund policy" rather than "contact the manufacturer for a refund". Not only that, underneath it was a separate agreement from Sony which said, in a nutshell, that it was all or nothing. Looks like somebody got tired of actually having to keep their promises to us nerds.
Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
now look at the mac os tax
it has to be at the most $1500-$500 on the mac pro.
Way to go ADUC.
They might not get very far, but I will cheer them on.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Why buy a computer with Windows when you want a computer without Windows? I buy lots of things and throw out part of it. I don't expect a refund on the skin of an onion that gets peeled and promptly thrown away.
I'm sorry this is not a racist stereotype... he didn't say Latin Mediterraneans... he said Italians. This is a nationalist stereotype. Grazie, you may continue :-)
Furthermore, how can someone prove they removed Windows 7 from a computer they bought?
You don't activate it. When you turn on your computer for the first time it asks to activate it. It's that simple.
Microsoft makes deals with PC manufacturers, who then bundle Windows and sell to end customers. If you buy such a PC, and don't want Windows, you should talk to your manufacturer instead. Why is it an issue for Microsoft to deal with, or make it convenient for you to get a refund from your PC manufacturer? It just doesn't make sense.
So sue the manufacturer instead.
I do not know Italian law, but I would not expect an outcome similar to Anglo-American law. AFAIK, they mostly use a "code" approach to the law, the codes dating back to the Romans and being used as generally guiding principles for the judges who have more discretion than common-law courts.
The fundamental problem for MS and the bundling mfrs is that a refund is not the same as a non-sale. It might be a remedy, but the money has been paid, and the negotiating power is reversed.
If, for instance, I boot my new machine from a USB key or CDROM, I might never see any notices of refund. Such a clean boot would be a very reasonable precaution to avoid running MS software and avoid a possible allegation of "use".
Actually, it is a Sicilian stereotype... and Northern Italians have a much dimmer view of Sicilians than Americans do! Prego.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I'm not sure about 7 or Vista, but XP used to sometimes come pre-activated by the OEM.
A computer is not a car. Analogy Fail.
A computer is not made by Microsoft.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Funny, I thought that is what liveCD's and OS installation software was for?
Actually, I got so $%&&%$## off a year ago when I bought my last (as in never again) Dell and I was forced to purchase a 64 bit copy of Windoze just to get the amount of memory I wanted. Even though they knew I was going to wipe whatever they put on the disk drive as soon as it arrived I still had to pay the ransom/extortion fee. I never looked back. My next machine was an HP with twice the memory and a blank disk drive. Speak with your wallet, as that is the only language they truly understand.
Not really good enough.
MS doesn't know that you didn't activate it and never intend to, all they know is that you didn't activate it YET.
The license is still bought and paid for and can be activated any time you wish.
What is needed is an option to have it shipped with NO Os installed, or a permanent deactivation of that serial number followed by a check from Microsoft.
Most people would be very unhappy with the pittance they get back, because MS will at best give you an OEM price back not a retail price. The OEMs pay Microsoft a tiny fraction of what you pay for windows when.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Being half-Sicilian, I can assure you that the reverse is also true.
Just ask your average Sicilian what she thinks of the Tuscan.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Bad analogy - more like you can only run Chevy brand gasoline, oil & tires.
Dan Means
Car engines are not interchangeable parts. Operating systems are. A better analogy would be that the Chevy dealer shouldn't be allowed to force you to pay $1000 for a stereo system when you know you can have an even better aftermarket system installed for $200.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
A new Chevy engine can be removed from you car and resold for a significant amount of money. Try reselling the Windows license that came with your computer and see what happens...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Contrary to popular impression, monopolies are not illegal. But they are restricted by law from doing things (mostly that would preserve or extend the monopoly) that are perfectly legal for other companies.
Tying or "bundling" is one of those illegal things that monopolies must not do. Selling their product as part of another sale. Software, including should be a sales choice ("Do you want Windows with that?") and invoice line-item.
How the boxen are configured and shipped is a separate matter. It would probably not be illegal to ship a machine with MS Windows pre-installed (and even stickered) even though the OS was refused at sales time and no price was paid for it. Quiet about virus! This would not authorize use, although a gift recipient might have an innocent user defense.
The whole point of the consumer watchdog is that if consumers for whatever reason can't conveniently prove it and get the refund, then the bundling and any agreements between retailer and Microsoft are illegal. The fact that it's inconvenient or unprofitable for MS, or killswitches are lacking or people might cheat doesn't really matter in the eyes of the law - forcing a purchase this way is illegal in EU according to the consumer laws.
That's exactly what I said. But it'd be the manufacturer that issues the cheque if the license has already been sold.
The original round of people that got a refund on their Windows licenses as allowed by the EULA in the past decade got more than $10, but less than the OEM price. That's the result of the kind of exclusive deal I was talking about.
The theory is, Microsoft makes it very difficult for manufacturers to sell computers without Windows. In the past Microsoft has been proven in court to have been strong-arming OEMs into not selling computers with other OSs, or no OS, because for most OEMs their core business is computers with Windows pre-installed, and they don't want to lose their favourable volume discount from Microsoft.
I don't know if this still goes on now, but it is really difficult to buy an off-the-shelf PC with no OS. Arguably the situation is a bit different now than it was 10 years ago, Linux is very much on the radar as is Mac OSX. However, countries differ in their competition and consumer protection laws, and it may well be that, in Italy, it's possible that the current situation runs foul of those laws/regulations.
To answer some of the other posts here asking why no-one complains about OSX, well - maybe some people would like to buy a Mac without an OS. This isn't the point though - it's very difficult to force a company to sell a certain combination of their own products. The issue here is that the MS Windows / Generic PC combination is two different products from two different companies, and that could run foul of competiton and consumer protection rules.
In the US, it was from a court case that basically said people had the right to buy a computer without having to pay for a Microsoft OS they're never going to use.
Microsoft had argued that anybody buying it without an OS was going to pirate Windows anyway, so they should get paid.
Basically, it was found to be uncompetitive behavior and harmful to the consumer as it was nearly impossible to NOT end up paying Microsoft around $100 on every new computer sold.
Except, Microsoft doesn't sell branded PCs, and as part of the anti-trust settlement they made, they agreed to stop doing that.
You can't buy a Windows 7 phone without an OS on it either -- it's a completely specious argument in this case.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
If you have to click through a EULA to use the CD-ROM drive and you disagree with the terms of use for it, you should be able to send it back for a refund.
using your mouse example -- if the computer box says "Comes with mouse", but in order to use the mouse you're required to install special software and click through a EULA that says "This mouse and software cannot be transferred to any other computer or resold to another person", then you should be able to return it for a refund since you haven't really bought the mouse if you can't decide to move it to your mom's computer.
I'd be happy to pay for the Windows license if I were allowed to sell it on Ebay since I won't be using it. Just like I can sell the keyboard from my new computer if I decide not to use it.
Having read a lot of the bizarre analogies above ('onion skins' 'car engines') I feel that most people haven't got the point that OEM manufacturers are _not_ selling their laptops without _3rd party_ software. There is an argument that the only people who would wish to purchase such a laptop would be a minority of linux users - i.e. around 1%, and therefore it would be a logistical cost not worth bearing. I might buy this argument if manufacturers provided laptops in a one-size-fits all strategy, but given a geek, like me, can choose between 5 ranges of laptop from Lenovo, with around three options each for RAM, processor, graphics cpu, hard drive size, wireless connectivity, screen resolution and type of windows installation, then don't try and tell me that it would be difficult or costly in anyway to sell a plain unformatted hard drive without without a license. If I can decline bluetooth, why can't I decline Windows?
The only aspect of the law suit that doesn't make sense is Why Microsoft? Why not sue lenovo? Unless this guy has some evidence to show that Microsoft are using anti-competitive strategies to maintain their marketshare, I don't imagine it will be successful.
Which is a shame, and means we'll have to wait for the EU to step in.
Should offer a "Linux Option". and a known Linux Option. Not a "bizzare Linux no one has ever heard of that has no drivers" option, and not a "FreeDOS option". But a "Fedora Option" or a "Mandriva Option" or a "Ubuntu Option" or a "SuSE Option" - That should cover 90% of Linux users.
Last time I bought a computer it was via Dell,
I rang them up and argued about the fact I didnt want windows.
they argued it was built into the price.
at the time windows home premium was around $250 odd, so I said I wanted $200 off the price, whether or not windows was installed.
it was easier for them to discount me the price of windows (and I doubt it costs them that much per computer) than it was for them to sell me a laptop without windows.
so forget about trying to get it without windows, the main thing is to not have to pay for it!
"This is my Sig. there are many like it but this one is mine."
IANAIL, but we definitely do not have any code dating back to the Romans. There is no continuity between the Roman Empire and the Republic of Italy, which started out as the Duchy of Savoy, then Kingdom of Sardinia, then Kingdom of Italy. We have a sort of Napoleonic code (good thing that our expats bring back something useful sometimes), which if anything gives much less discretion than in common law.
For example, a judge cannot rule on the basis of custom, but only on written law. Sentences do not create precedence, unless they are from the highest court. Frankly I found it always odd that in common law you can use a precedent from a judge as an argument in front of another one.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
I recently bought a Dell Zino HD from Dell NZ. I did it over the phone, so I could ask for the Windows licence to be refunded - there is now way to do it on the website of course.
The first operator didn't really know how to handle my request and asked if they could call back. When I did get called back I was offered a discount to the value of the Windows licence. So presumably Dell ended up paying Microsoft for a licence on my purchase anyway.
I'm guessing that Microsoft have insured themselves in the agreements with the system builders and distributors in this way. I don't know how you would go about finding out what the content of those agreements really is though.
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
Considering that your computer is near unusable after a certain amount of time when first turned on, yes they probably know it was never intended to be activated and/or was never sold.
Car engines are not interchangeable parts. Operating systems are. A better analogy would be that the Chevy dealer shouldn't be allowed to force you to pay $1000 for a stereo system when you know you can have an even better aftermarket system installed for $200.
And to continue your analogy, making it a bit more relevant here...
And if you buy a new Chevy, you cannot remove the stereo system and return it to the dealer for a refund of that $1000 it supposedly costs.
I could probably buy a new car for $20k and get at least $5-10k back in "returned parts" that I don't need or could find better/cheaper aftermarket replacements for. But you just can't do that because the deal is that it's a package deal.
price of ( sum of parts ) != sum of ( price of parts ).
I don't see this as bad practice... If you don't want a computer with Windows on it, then don't buy it - there are plenty of places you can go and get a computer WITHOUT Microsoft software. Most of them are probably local shops.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
The truth of the matter is the Italian government is trying to close a budget deficit and attacking Microsoft is a good way to get money. If they actually cared about spurring competition and making it easier for the consumer to have choice they would require PC manufacturers and/or resellers to offer at least two OSs or a no operating system option. That way it would be easier for the consumer to choose without having to go through the effort of getting a refund and would level the playing field so MS raising the cost on a manufacturer for not exclusively using their OS wouldn’t matter.
The fact that buying a bare laptop is more expensive is a nasty side-effect of MS's licensing arrangements with OEMs. That, in turn, is why people are getting fed up with the Windows tax.
Bare bones doesn't sell worth shit.
While Walmart.com finds it profitable to stock 240 Win 7 laptops and 89 desktops. None of them high end product.
The OEM Windows PC benefits from enormous economies of scale.
In manufacturing. In marketing.
The OEM Windows PC benefits from the fact that it is sold as a ready-to-run home appliance and not a kit of parts.
You buy the Win 7 laptop knowing that the sound will work. That ain't always true with Ubuntu.
There is damn little evidence that talk of the "Microsoft Tax" rings anyone's chimes but the geek's. Top 5 Operating Systems
But you can remove the stereo and sell it through eBay (although Chevy is probably trying to figure out how to stop that trade). Try re-selling your OEM license of Windows!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Here are a couple of places from whom I've bought linux boxes: http://system76.com/ , http://www.zareason.com/ Based on my extremely small sample size, I've found system76 to be a little better in terms of quality, but I've seen lots of positive comments about both of these businesses on the web.
Of course I realize that the existence of alternatives doesn't mean that Microsoft isn't massively exploiting its monopoly power over the market ("monopoly" in the legal sense, which does not require 100% market share). But if nobody bothers to buy from the alternatives, then I can sure as heck guarantee you that the situation will get worse, not better.
Some big retailers such as Fry's, Target, and Walmart have tried selling linux machines. As far as I've been able to tell, none of them have been successful, and I don't think the failure has anything to do with strong-arm tactics by MS. A while back, Fry's used to sell linux machines for $180-250 that were actually pretty decent. I bought several of them (one for my father, one for my daughter, etc.), and they lasted a long time and gave yeoman service. But they stopped selling them, and when I asked one of the salespeople at Fry's he said that they'd had so many returns that it wasn't profitable. Realistically, what was happening was that a lot of people were buying them, wiping linux off the hard disk, and installing a bootlegged copy of windows. Then when the windows install didn't work correctly, they would return the machine. This wasn't subtle at all. The machines came with a custom linux distro (ThizLinux) that nobody in the U.S. had ever heard of and that didn't even have a web page in English. The docs that came with the machines consisted of five pages of instructions on how to install windows, and no info whatsoever on how to use the linux that came preinstalled.
Walmart was selling the gPC for a while. I bought one, and although the hardware was decent, the quality of the software integration stank to high heaven.
What the smaller sellers like system76 and zareason are doing right is to stop trying to invent their own crappy linux distro and just ship their machines with ubuntu, which works. Another thing they're doing right is to market their computers to people who actually want to run linux, as opposed to people who don't know about, don't care about, or don't want linux.
Find free books.
When I bought my car I asked them to remove the radio and they deducted that from the listed price. I did not want it, so I did not buy it.
They even installed my radio for me.
Sure, I agreed on this pre-sale and not after 2 months or so. I would agree to this in a store as well. Just say I do not want the OS, they remove it and take the amount from the bill.
The problem then will be support (which is 2 years in Europe). Not impossible, but more expensive as phone support would be non-existing for those systems. And only around 10% of the problems are hardware (Not a made up statistic. Standard is 8-12%). The rest is software/user error that can be 'repaired' by reinstalling by phone.
These would now be brought to the repair center where no hardware error would be seen. This adds costs and thus increase the price of the PC.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The polentini and terroni are seemingly always at odds..
It was explained to me by many venetians (polentini) that because Veneto produces 80% of Italy's GDP, from which taxes are paid to the south (terroni, and includes sicily) and do not return to the region.
Polentini = polenta people = people of gold (snooty-like insult by the south)
Terroni = people of earth = dirt people (indigenous/3rd-world insult by the north)
I know you're just trolling, but you generally don't pay for Linux.
Yes I know that not everyone is so inclined or has the time, but if you can (and it's really not that hard), it's a no-brainer to build your own. You get better components, only exactly what you need, and save money.
I know some will say "what about the other people"... well, most who can't or won't build their own machines just don't care. This Italian dude is a rare exception. Perish the thought, but most users *want* Windows. And I'm in the don't care camp, too, because when I hear "oh I hate Dell", or whatnot, I'm like, whatever.
What is needed is a system where we either:
1) Have competitive markets that are broad enough in competition such that this one-way model can't exist.
OR
2) Regulations that protect consumers (like anti-trust laws, but with judges and leadership without corporate campaign funding)
---- But something about the reality of it all tells me that we'll get the bad version of #2, where we need to regulate against oligopolies, but nothing real is done about it.
That they're a bunch of Dorics?
"I DARE you to make less sense!"
And Microsoft is not the one tying the OS to the PC. So again, not Microsoft's problem.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Crap... Since when were there different kinds of bootlanders?!
DATABASE WOW WOW
more like you can only run Chevy brand gasoline, oil & tires.
Give it time. They are already using more and more specialised tooling to force you to take it to the dealership. I'd be surprised if we made it a decade before GM vehicles go the way of the Apple walled garden and force owners to do everything through the dealer at a (ahem) slight premium.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
Even if you don't use Windows, you benefit from the economy of scale created by millions of Windows-using PC users around the globe who create the demand for PC's.
Also, because Windows is big, bloated and slow, this has created massive consumer demand for more powerful hardware.
The upshot is that you wouldn't have a PC which is as cheap, as fast and with as large a memory as what you have today if it were not for Windows.
Even the fact that Windows is preinstalled on PC's is a piece of streamlining which saves the industry as a whole money (remember, most users end up with Windows: this is just the principle of optimizing the frequent case!)
True story: My grandmother, when I was maybe 16 or 17 years old, explained to me in a serious talk that the most important thing about finding a girl is to find one that I truly loved and who truly loved me. She told me that it didn't matter her nationality, her religion, her station in life, rich or poor, educated or not, and to my great surprise she added, looking me dead in the eye "..or black or white". Then she held my eyes and gravely said "As long as she is not Tuscan".
Sure enough, the first girl I got serious about, senior year of high school, was a red-headed Tuscanese. She turned out to be a witch, a real strega with a crazy family. She had an older brother who put a beating on me for "soiling" his sister (little did he know).
I should have listened to grandma. Whenever talk turns to Italian regionalism, I remember that story.
You are welcome on my lawn.
But Microsoft is the monopolist here. Mac OS X wouldn't stand a chance if Apple didn't produce Macs
Try re-selling your OEM license of Windows!
Fortunately this is not a problem in some countries, e.g. Germany, where Microsoft cannot enforce any restrictions on OEM software. It can be resold just like "retail" software.
I'm not talking about Apple. I'm saying that the PC manufacturers are the ones tying Windows to the PCs, not Microsoft. Microsoft may be guilty of trying to manipulate the market in a heavy-handed fashion (and if they are, they should be stopped), but claiming that they make it impossible to get a PC without Windows is asinine.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Given that history, both MS & the mfr would have to prove there was no bundling. Quite easily done if theirs always a sales-question asked and invoice line-item. Much more difficult if not. Yes, this is guilty until proven innocent, but that is precisely how the US Sherman and Clayton (antitrust) Acts are crafted, interpreted and enforced.
lmfao. great story.
I was living in northern italy; it was always comical to hear my local pals talking crap about certain people --- pointing them out --- talking loudly in their direction... all because they were southern. lol.
good times in italy.
"Contract of adhesion"
Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Retailers make a fair thwack of money out of all the crap they pre-load onto PCs to the point where the craplets cover the cost of the Windows license and subsidize the cost of the PC. Stuff like Norton and Nero doesn't end up on these machines for free - those companies pay to get it on there. Because of this, it can end up to be more expensive to by a naked machine than it is to buy one with all the crap installed because you lose the subsidies.
It is just that they lack the markedshare on the desktop/laptop marked to be forced to open it up.
And unlike MS, they are not bloody everywhere, yet.
And since they lack the markedshare, they won't be hit by anything like a anti-trust, so they can be a exclusive brand as long as they don't reach quite high markedshare.
Yes but apple is evil, and you know it. Pretending to be "different" while selling overpriced computers with intel processors. Yeah sure Apple i'll buy that. This is not a PC it's a MAC, bullshit through and through!
Its about time someone stopped MS from forcing vendors to sell Windows.
Whooah there, steady on, controversial opinions like that could get you banned from slashdot.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
That's an apologist argument. It assumes that none of the development of computers would have happened without Windows and that's an invalid conclusion. Saying that Linux distributions are too hard to use overlooks the significant changes in the user interface that MS makes at each of their nearly-forced upgrades. It's just as big a change from XP to Ubuntu as it is from XP to Vista and requires just as much training or attitude adjustment. I'm not using Linux right now; I'm using Vista (yuck) because this Sony laptop came with it and Linux drivers for this hardware are elusive. Would I upgrade to Windows 7? Maybe for free - the same price that I'd pay for a Linux distribution.
We know why the tax exists, just look at the open letter to the altair hobbyists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists where microsoft was saying that pretty much all hobbyists were all pirates. To keep this from springing up again, they worked up deals with ibm compatible computer makers to force MS down the customers throat. The difference now being that when they started this, they might have been the only OS for the hardware. Today though is a totally different enviroment thanks to new x86 operating systems popping up everyday. So it is no longer the fact that if they bought the hardware without the software, that they are naturally pirating microsoft product. Dell had a good start going, selling ubuntu and freedos machines of course. Something though I noticed from the places that sell pure linux systems is the price of the systems are not worth it to say, "no microsoft tax was paid", or like with dell, the selection was pretty small. Especially people who want high end performance/gaming laptops. For instance, I bought an asus g60 off newegg for 700usd which had 4 gigs of ram, a 320 gig hard drive, another slot for a hard drive, a 16" screen, a nvidia gtx 260m 1gb dedicated, etc etc etc. If I want the performance hardware I'm forced into the MS tax unless I'm into desktops. I am happy that we aren't forced into paying the tax when buying our own hardware and building, but until laptop parts are more standardized, we will be under their thumb. By the way, if you know a supplier of new, affordable linux/noOS/freedos/unix laptops, let me know, so I can check them out.
I don't believe that for a minute, I was using a home computer for years before the PC finally invaded the home. There were loads of different machines by different manufacturers running different Operating Systems. The existence of all those machines had a much bigger downward effect on PC pricing than Microsoft. What Microsoft (with IBM) managed to do was pretty much eliminate all the competition from those home computer manufacturers and computing became pretty dull for a long time because of that. The companies that created the demand for home computers were Commodore, Sinclair, Atari, etc. the PC was overpriced for a long time.
Apple are pretty much the only ones left in the market and Microsoft stepped into to help keep them alive.
If you eliminate Microsoft from history, then the PC still exists just with a different OS. There would still have been open source software to run on it, even if Linux was never created, as open source software pre-dates the PC.
But my story takes place on Taylor Street (Little Italy) in Chicago!
I guess folks take their prejudices with them when they cross the ocean.
You are welcome on my lawn.
And the child that broke the shopkeeper's window pane is keeping the glazier in business.
Microsoft isn't selling you Windows. It's silly to me that they are suing Microsoft, they really have nothing to do with this. A PC maker buys Windows and then installs it on the machine. It's like suing black and decker because Home Depot won't take your refund you for a drill. HP, Dell, Sony now owns the product. Why it's cheaper is becuase installing Windows is part of a process. To uninstall windows takes manual intervention, hence more money. Then putting on the advertisement shortcuts on your desktop help lower the cost even more. I am just surprised that people don't get how life works. It's not some nefarious tax or people out to get you. It's about making a product as inexpensive as they can. It makes perfect sense that taking windows off cost more money than putting it on.
How much "crap and trialware" does one get on an empty disk? HP, for all its faults, is one of the few machines which one can buy without the Microsoft tax/extortion-fee. I have had several HP's in the past and you are correct in that they can have their problems, but don't they all?
Google: barebones pc
Google: barebones laptop
Some notable manufacturers of Barebones Laptops: ASUS, OCZ, MSI
If you eliminated Microsoft from history, Digital Research would have provided CP/M-86 for the PC and their operating systems were not open source. However Gary Kildall was significantly more benevolent than Bill Gates IMHO. CP/M, then Concurrent w/Gem would have gone down the GUI route. The thing about DRI though was that they didn't pile on new software on top of old. They re-engineered their operating systems, and they were lean and mean.
The so-called "over-priced computers with intel processors" are staying viable and lasting years longer than the PC's I have bought. Apple sells well designed and supported hardware that has excellent quality control when it comes to the OS working well on the hardware. When I bought my 8-core 3.0GHz Xeon Mac Pro, it cost more than a clone, but then again the 3.0GHz Xeon CPUs were only being shipped by Intel to Apple, and I got extra performance for my extra money. Also my three year old Mac Pro is running very well, compared to any three year old Windows machines I purchased from other vendors. Non-apple machines running Windows 7 run like crap, and when you buy a machine with Windows 7 Home Pro, it doesn't take long to discover you have to buy an upgrade to get the XP emulator so you can run all you legacy software. If you haven't used a Mac day after day, and experienced the responsive, solid, Mac OS performance, are you really qualified to say their machines are overpriced?
[Disclaimer: I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy]
I get 5 TV networks broadcast to me for free. I can watch them, but I have to put up with ads for $399 Amish Space Heaters and Cialis (which I don't buy). Or, I can watch PBS and maybe donate for their cause if I want.
I watch The Office and take a whiz during the commercials, but mostly watch Nova and Masterpiece Theater.
So, buy a laptop with windows, wipe the crapware (Office, Nero, Norton, MSN), herd it into its own nice small partition, then put a better operating system on it and go from there. If you need windows for something someday (just conjecturing), you have it. You paid less than a barebones, because you got the "standard" model.
Desktops are different: you can get bits and pieces on sale & rebate, and put them together. But sometimes it isn't worth the trouble.
-
It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. --Acts 26:14 KJV
Guys, you may say anything defending Microsoft and OEMs on that idiotic practice to sell hardware with crapware. But say me, what I must do if I do need it all really? Why I should pay for stupidity of others?!! It's almost impossible here in Ukraine to get refund from any vendor. And I can not buy good notebook without Windows 7 I'm not going to use at all. Why I should just give 200 bucks to Microsoft for nothing?!!
Everyone with his head on shoulders knows that Microsoft rapes every OEM and forces them to install widooze, not linux. Remember ASUS story with EEE PC? That's simply the dirty way to keep monopoly. Nothing more.
And if you such a stupid oxymoron that needs windooze preinstalled, I'm sure you can not tell the difference if you get KDE4 with linux and OpenOffice instead of widooze!
And yes, they(OEMs) MAY sell windooze software pack separately in separate box with separate price. They already do that by supplying "rescue" disk.
One should be just an stupid brain-dead idiot not be able to put DVD in drive or flash in USB and power up notebook to start fully automatic install of that crapware.