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Lawmaker Reintroduces WikiLeaks Prosecution Bill

angry tapir writes "New legislation in the US Congress targets WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange for espionage prosecution. Representative Peter King, a New York Republican, introduced the Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination, or SHIELD, Act (read the bill here [PDF]). The bill would clarify US law by saying it is an act of espionage to publish the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the US military or intelligence community."

389 comments

  1. Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, does this apply to Libby / Chaney leaking name of active CIA operative? Oh wait, got a pardon from Bush....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Libby

    1. Re:Libby and Cheiney by rwade · · Score: 3, Informative

      More to the point, he had his sentence commuted because Bush thought 30 months for endangering the life of a intelligence operative was excessive:

      From the wikipedia article you cite:

      "After Libby was denied bail during his appeal process on July 2, 2007, President Bush commuted Libby's 30-month federal prison sentence, calling it "excessive", but he did not change the other parts of the sentence and their conditions.[17] That presidential commutation left in place the felony conviction, the $250,000 fine, and the terms of probation."

      He was still punished, but whether a fine and probation is enough is questionable...

    2. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

      Apply it to Libby and Cheney all you want. Richard Armitage revealed the fact that Valeria Plame was an agent.

           

    3. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Except that Valerie Plame's name was not leaked by Libby/Cheney. It was leaked by Richard Armitage (who opposed the Iraq war).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    4. Re:Libby and Cheiney by CookieForYou · · Score: 2

      Well, revealing the information was ALWAYS a crime. This law seeks to make it illegal to "publish" that, which would include the Washington Post (in this instance) as well as several people, including Libby, who "published" it on television.

      The "leaks" were from Bradley Manning, just like they were from Armitage in the example. They're seeking to make it illegal to "publish" already leaked information.

      It won't pass a constitutional test and is such an absurd knee-jerk, with so many ridiculous implications....

    5. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you're right, but ever since torture passed a constitutional test I am very pessimistic.

    6. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

      Keep in mind that we don't even know that Bradley Manning was the one who leaked the information. The only "evidence" anybody knows about is simply an accusation by someone else... someone who happens to have been convicted before of hacking into computers...

    7. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 0

      We can't let the facts get in front of Bush/Cheney bashing.

    8. Re:Libby and Cheiney by jpmorgan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Libby was convicted on counts of perjury and obstruction of justice, not actually outing Plame.

    9. Re:Libby and Cheiney by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 4, Informative
      http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Pete_King#Valerie_Plame_comments

      In 2005, during the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, King said the crosshairs ought to be set on the news media, which weren't tough enough on her husband, former Ambassador Joe Wilson, rather than Karl Rove. King also suggested that the media "be shot" for pursuing the story and identifying White House aide Karl Rove as the alledged leaker.[6]

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    10. Re:Libby and Cheiney by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 2

      More to the point, he had his sentence commuted because Bush thought 30 months for endangering the life of a intelligence operative was excessive:

      Hrrm, so what about the CIA cover company she worked for? And all the informers involved with that company? Nah, not a single scratch reported, right?

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    11. Re:Libby and Cheiney by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 2

      Apply it to Libby and Cheney all you want. Richard Armitage revealed the fact that Valeria Plame was an agent.

      Exactly, Libby and Rove were Whistleblowers like Bradley Manning - where's he at?

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    12. Re:Libby and Cheiney by AHuxley · · Score: 4, Informative

      The US informers involved with "that company" where left in Iraq. Many where systematically 'lost' in the fog of war, like they where on some list.
      The movie Fair Game hints at the details http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0977855/
      As for US law, this will be very chilling on the press. From the 1920's and 30's books on US ww1 code breaking to the Pentagon papers, NSA books ect. US law has been clear about the freedom to publish. What has been published is mostly collected from the press, been cleared or hints at deep crime, useless hardware/software, limited hangout efforts, pure propaganda or PR.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    13. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      As can be seen by the fact that the post I replied to is moderated +3 "insightful", which is really stupid since it isn't insightful to repeat a false meme.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    14. Re:Libby and Cheiney by sg_oneill · · Score: 2

      Yep, its going to get killed at the first hurdle, because the big papers can just throw infinite lawyerage at it, and these lawyers are press lawyers who live and breathe first amendment.

      Its a bit like those silly anti-porn laws that used to get introduced every few years then get knocked off as being unconstitutional. A couple of years later it'd start again because politicians dont introduce the laws for them to be laws but to create persecution complexes for mouthbreathing authoritarian conservatives to get angry about when their "right" to persecute people gets trumped by reason.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    15. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Informative

      Libby did not endanger the life of an intelligence operative. He didn't even reveal the name of an intelligence operative. All he did was recount a telephone conversation under oath differently than the other party to that conversation did. I do not understand how his lawyer failed to present reasonable doubt that the reporter (who was the other party to the conversation) remembered correctly, or that Libby legitimately remembered the conversation as he recounted it. That being said, when the prosecutor questioned Libby, the prosecutor already knew that Richard Armitage was the person who had revealed Valerie Plame's name (Richard Armitage was, at the time he revealed her name, trying to undermine the Bush case for war with Iraq--whether that played any role in him revealing her name is unknown, but doubtful).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    16. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Plame's name was dropped in front of Richard Armitage and others, under ambiguous circumstances. Libby and close associates of his were in the center of these "accidents". When the prosecutors tracked down the leaks to a specific timeline, and questioned Libby about key related conversations, from the investigator's POV, Libby appeared to fabricate an alibi from whole cloth.

      So the circumstances strongly suggested that this "mistaken" recollection was not innocent.

      And the jury all agreed. I would note that multiple jurors stated they believed Libby was a "Fall Guy".

      There are two kinds of Fall Guy. There is the complete innocent who is framed on purpose or through bad luck, which is vastly more common in fiction than real life. And there is the very guilty Fall Guy, who is left holding the bag while more morally culpable individuals escape justice.

      It is unambiguous the jurors were thinking of the second kind, which, if taken at face value, implies they believed there must have been a criminal conspiracy within the highest levels of government.

    17. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It won't pass a constitutional test and is such an absurd knee-jerk, with so many ridiculous implications....

      And even if would pass, it wouldn't help convicting Assange for anything even if he had released the materials in the US as a US citizen, unless nullum crimen sine lege is not part of the US system of criminal law..

    18. Re:Libby and Cheiney by tombeard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, I'm sure after as much "time for reflection" necessary has been allowed, Bradley will certainly remember whatever is required for his conviction.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    19. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like always, it's the cover up that get's ya busted. Be a man, not a Scooter and just do the crime like you mean it.

    20. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Aryden · · Score: 1

      Here were refer to it as "Ex Post Facto" law. You cannot prosecute someone for committing a crime before the act was made a crime. Which, completely gets ignored here in the US if they back date the law within the law itself. Meaning, they can write into the bill "Any act committed on or before x date" where x date can be several years prior to the passing of the law.

    21. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're pessimistic because of that?

      How about the laws Obama has passed? How about the fact that the President can now assassinate US citizens anywhere in the world by simply making an accusation of terrorism. No evidence needed. How about the fact that the President can now imprison US citizens indefinitely without any kind of due process by, once again, making an accusation of terrorism with no supporting evidence.

      How about the ability of the US government to take over any business they so choose and never release any information about it? The business owners/executives are automatically under gag orders so they cannot talk about it, and all FOIA requests are denied by default.

      These are greater reasons to be pessimistic about the direction of our country. In your instance a non-US-citizen can be tortured. In the instances I brought up the consitutional rights of US citizens are destroyed.

    22. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He took the fall. They commuted Scooter Libby's sentence because someone who's had their sentence commuted can still plead the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination in response to future questioning. Someone who's pardoned cannot, since he can no longer be "incriminated."

    23. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why is any of that relevant. Richard Armitage was someone who had clearance to know who Valerie Plame was and what she did. I find it hard to believe that he did not already know who she was and her relationship to Joe Wilson. However, that is beside the point. The prosecutor was commissioned to investigate who had revealed Valerie Plame's name to Richard Novak. He very quickly discovered that it was Richard Armitage. Why was the prosecutor still investigating when he knew who had revealed the name? And it was someone who would have had no part in "revenge" against Joe Wilson. There is no evidence that Libby ever revealed Valerie Plame's name to anyone who was not cleared to know it.
      The prosecutor in this case was on a witch hunt and he was unwilling to end his investigation without charging someone with something...even though the "crime" he was investigating was not a crime (revealing Valerie Plame's name was not a violation of the law as it is written, which is why he did not charge Richard Armitage).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    24. Re:Libby and Cheiney by sumdumass · · Score: 3

      What are you talking about? A pardon wouldn't have been any different then the sentencing commute concerning the fifth amendment. He had already been tried and convicted for everything a pardon would have covered.

      Further more, he was only convicted on making false statements, nothing in depth or detail of the Plame leak case. The investigation pretty well showed that the leak was because of Richard Armatage which is supported by Armatage himself and the reporter who broke the story that originally outed Plame when Armatage was drunk at a state diner or something and someone asked who in the hell Joe Wilson was and he replied, his wife's a spy or something to that effect.

      Shit.. move on guys.. This is all history you should at least be aware of. Here's something else you probably aren't aware of, Bush is out of office, he isn't running for any other office. You can stop bashing him, you can stop misrepresenting the truth in order to bash him. It serves no purpose.. unless you think someone in office still has to run against Bush to remain in power.

    25. Re:Libby and Cheiney by budgenator · · Score: 1

      And even if would pass, it wouldn't help convicting Assange for anything even if he had released the materials in the US as a US citizen, unless nullum crimen sine lege is not part of the US system of criminal law..

      That would only apply to documents published before the law is passed.

      The bill would clarify U.S. law by saying that it is an act of espionage to publish the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the U.S military or intelligence community.

      Documents in their possession but not published would be illegal to publish without the identities of informants redacted and possibly the re-publication of covered documents. Whether it clears constitutional muster under the 1st amendment is another matter.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    26. Re:Libby and Cheiney by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      It still all fails, as it only cover people releasing data in the US. Once the data is released over seas by a non-US citizens the scope of US law is extinguished, unless the US is going to categorical state that it's Laws take precedence over all other countries laws within their own boundaries, a literal pre-warning of declaring war against the rest of the world should they fail to obey.

      Now for example if countries overseas catch, US spies and informers, and declare and try them, is the US stating those countries have committed a crime against the US for doing so. One step further from current laws where US spies and informers are legally free to break others countries up to and including mass murder, including supposedly allied countries.

      So if Julian Assange were to release the name of a US intelligence operative stealing data or corrupting Australia politics in Australia, would the US, demand Julian Assange's extradition for being a loyal Australian citizen.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    27. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 1

      The fact that person A leaked something does not mean that person B did not leak it as well. You have no proof that Armitage leaked it. But even if you did have proof that Armitage leaked it that would not prove that Cheney and Libby did not leak it.

      Also why do you think Armitage opposed the Iraq war? He was in the department of state which was not as gung ho about the war as the vice president and department of defense, but still supported the war.

      The only thing that is known for certain in this whole affair is that Libby lied to a grand jury about it and obstructed justice.

      I hoped the prosecutor did his job better and found out more about this affair, but he did not, so here we are.

    28. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, you are right, I have no proof that Armitage leaked Plame's name...except of course the statement by Robert Novak and by Richard Armitage himself. The reason I think that Armitage opposed the Iraq War is because I have a memory and I remember him doing so.
      The investigation was into who told Robert Novak Plame"s name. Robert Novak testified that it was Richard Armitage. Richard Armitage testified that it was Richard Armitage. Why should I think that someone else told him when he said that it was one specific person who told him and that one specific person admitted to telling him? The thing is, "leaking" Valerie Plame's name was not a crime, that is why Richard Armitage was not prosecuted. The special prosecutor knew early on that Richard Armitage was the one who leaked the name. Everything he did after that was a fishing expedition.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    29. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely, because Valerie Plame was not an active foreign operative at the time. Making this whole thread a non sequitur.

    30. Re:Libby and Cheiney by tekrat · · Score: 1

      Why are you defending Bush? We are all still paying for his errors, and we will probably *still* be paying for his errors for another 20 years.

      He did more damage to this nation than any other president in history. His name should be spoken in the same way we speak of other leaders who committed atrocities.

      I will continue to bash Bush, thank you. I mean, unless you're trying to make the argument that Bush was a patsy and Karl Rove and Dick Cheney did all the damage. But it doesn't matter. Bush called himself the Decider, and now he has to live with the consequences of destroying the USA "because God told him to do it".

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    31. Re:Libby and Cheiney by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It still all fails, as it only cover people releasing data in the US. Once the data is released over seas by a non-US citizens the scope of US law is extinguished, unless the US is going to categorical state that it's Laws take precedence over all other countries laws within their own boundaries, a literal pre-warning of declaring war against the rest of the world should they fail to obey.

      Worryingly, I don't find this particularly hard to believe happening.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    32. Re:Libby and Cheiney by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, I'm sure after as much "time for reflection" necessary has been allowed, Bradley will certainly remember whatever is required for his conviction.

      After a year of waterboarding I'd be happy to confess to crucifying Jesus, organising the Nazi concentration camps and flying one of the planes on 9/11 just to get them to stop.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    33. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Shit.. move on guys.

      I will not. These people committed serious crimes. They need to be tried for them. I want Bush prosecuted like any other suspected criminal. Then I'll move on. Deal?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    34. Re:Libby and Cheiney by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why are you defending Bush? We are all still paying for his errors, and we will probably *still* be paying for his errors for another 20 years.

      Who's defending bush.. I'm saying let go of the purposeful ignorance that's only some attempt at slandering and bashing Bush. It would be different if the AC was actually factual and right in his statement, but he wasn't.

      He did more damage to this nation than any other president in history. His name should be spoken in the same way we speak of other leaders who committed atrocities.

      Even if you believe that, it's still no reason to spout falsehoods in some vein attempt of bashing him. And if the arguments against him were actually based on what is real instead of what is floating in someone's imagination, you might not believe the statement you just said.

      I will continue to bash Bush, thank you. I mean, unless you're trying to make the argument that Bush was a patsy and Karl Rove and Dick Cheney did all the damage. But it doesn't matter. Bush called himself the Decider, and now he has to live with the consequences of destroying the USA "because God told him to do it".

      Then you will continue to be a complete fucking idiot if you continue to support, spout and defend falsehoods and lies about him. There is plenty of stuff to bash him for legitimately. There is no reason to lie and make stuff up, or even repeat the tired old false crap that anyone with half a mind has already found out to be incorrect.

      And no, this isn't a defense of Bush, this is a defense of the Truth. I'm sorry that wasn't the argument you were trolling for, but hey, it the argument I made.

    35. Re:Libby and Cheiney by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I will not. These people committed serious crimes. They need to be tried for them. I want Bush prosecuted like any other suspected criminal. Then I'll move on. Deal?

      What serious crimes? Further more, if you would have read my comment instead of letting your knee jerk so hard that you had to post in order to avoid hitting yourself in the head, you would see that I was talking about the untrue and blatantly false accusations that show completely no intellectual honesty at all like the op stated when he claimed Libbey's sentence was commuted instead of pardoned because he could take the fifth. That was nothing but a false accusation in an attempt to revert the discussion to bashing bush under false premises.

    36. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      What serious crimes?

      War crimes. Treason.

      you would see that I was talking about the untrue and blatantly false accusations

      I understand that, and I don't disagree. I was replying to the back half of your post. Don't get ad hominem on me.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    37. Re:Libby and Cheiney by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should have paid a little more attention to the "This is all history you should at least be aware of." that came directly after the move on portion of the comment. The back half of the post was about getting things right and not making crap up to demonize Bush.

    38. Re:Libby and Cheiney by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      I agree with that completely. We have no need to make things up; the evidence of history speaks for itself.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    39. Re:Libby and Cheiney by mog007 · · Score: 1

      Because ex post facto law is forbidden by the Constitution. I'm all for bashing on Cheney and his fucked up ideas, but don't throw out one of the guiding principles of our country just because Cheney is an asshole.

      If something you did yesterday is made illegal today, you can't get arrested tomorrow.

  2. Misleading... by Shoten · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Neither this law, nor the original version of it, would have retroactive applicability; in other words, you can't make something illegal today, and then prosecute the guy that did it yesterday. It's more like the early laws around computer crime, which came about not to prosecute people who had already been hacking, but instead came about because existing law didn't properly address something that should already have been criminalized, in the eyes of the legislature.

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    1. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...and I thought SHIELD was the organisation with Samuel L. Jackson in it?

    2. Re:Misleading... by Fluffeh · · Score: 2

      Yes, but it tries to put a stop on the next bunch of Wikileaks that are on their way...

      He is basically following the "Trick me once, shame on you... trick me twice, shame on me" mentality.

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      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    3. Re:Misleading... by mcmonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, but leaving those documents available on WikiLeaks after the law passes (if it passes in to law) would be an on-going act that could be illegal.

    4. Re:Misleading... by bstender · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Neither this law, nor the original version of it, would have retroactive applicability

      you trying to tell a law-maker what the law is? maybe they'll just pass another law making it lawful to enact retroactive law enforcement, bitch! it's not like the US public will say squat about it anyway as long as the cheap gas and Bacon double-cheesburgers keep rolling. and don't try that "i have rights constitution" bs, you must be a terrorist to talk like that. i've heard enough, guards, silently lock him away.

      --
      look sig is kool
    5. Re:Misleading... by v1 · · Score: 1

      you're confusing the "good guys" with the "bad guys".

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    6. Re:Misleading... by hamisht · · Score: 1

      not retroactive, phew, at least Karl Rove will be safe then.

    7. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's because any such law would be illegal under the US Constitution. We have a strong prohibition against any ex post facto law, and for good reason.

    8. Re:Misleading... by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...and I thought SHIELD was the organisation with Samuel L. Jackson in it?

      You're off by 90 degrees.
      David Hasselhoff as Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD

    9. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except sex offender registries and the subsequent restrictions placed on them. Those were retroactive. So were the changes to the statute of limitations on sex offenses, again, held up by the supreme court as having "special merit" because PEEDOFILES ARE IIICKY.

    10. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, what's HAMMER up to these days?

    11. Re:Misleading... by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 1, Section 9, Paragraph 3.

      No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

    12. Re:Misleading... by bhagwad · · Score: 1

      What puzzles me is how can the US (or any country) make a law that can possibly apply to what a citizen of another country does outside the US?

      Assange is Australian. He never committed any "crime" on US soil. How the hell can any US law be legally binding on him? It has to be either an Australian law or the law of the land where he's staying. Or do I not understand what's going on? The US cannot for example pass a law saying "Shouting 'zigaboob' in Italy in a public space" is illegal. It can only say it's illegal in the US...

    13. Re:Misleading... by adamstew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except they can't do that. It's expressly forbidden to do this in the US Constitution. It's called "Ex Post Facto" and it's not allowed.

      I could be wrong, but I don't even think an amendment to the constitution can allow ex post facto laws, since it's explicitly in the section called "limits on congress".

    14. Re:Misleading... by exomondo · · Score: 2

      Yes, but it tries to put a stop on the next bunch of Wikileaks that are on their way...

      He is basically following the "Trick me once, shame on you... trick me twice, shame on me" mentality.

      at least it's not the bush version..."fool me once, shame on....shame on...you...................the fool can't get fooled again"

    15. Re:Misleading... by TheEyes · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 1, Section 9, Paragraph 3.

      No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

      Except it's already been done, and relatively recently: telcom companies were given retroactive immunity for participation in the Bush warantless wiretapping program.

      Make no mistake: despite what politicians of both sides of the aisle say, no Republican, and far too few Democrats, really know or agree with what's actually in the Constitution.

    16. Re:Misleading... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      Sounds like good reason to immediately release the entire stash of documents before it becomes illegal to do so. There are still hundreds of thousands we haven't seen yet.

    17. Re:Misleading... by timeOday · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Are you entirely sure? There are people who argue that the Constitution applies not to actions of the US government in general, but that it only guarantees rights to US citizens. So, for example, the US government could detain foreigners without charging them indefinitely (no right to due process) or torture them (no ban on cruel and unusual punishment).

    18. Re:Misleading... by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 0

      Neither this law, nor the original version of it, would have retroactive applicability; in other words, you can't make something illegal today, and then prosecute the guy that did it yesterday

      Not only un-Constitutional, but if it were applied retroactively it would also affect Cheney, Bush, et al for the Plame thing, too.

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    19. Re:Misleading... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Is wikileaks hosted in the USA?
      I really doubt that.

    20. Re:Misleading... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      I'll bet that way down deep inside the UK–USA Security Agreement, of which Australia is a member, theres stuff in there about being able to go after citizens of a member state.

      Assange is Australian, but Australia is in a super duper signals intelligence sharing treaty with Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, All the member states spy on the other member state's citizens.

      The US Department of Justice likely can go get a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) warrant and go after an Australian national for pushing around sensitive US documents.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK–USA_Security_Agreement

    21. Re:Misleading... by tm2b · · Score: 2

      Yes, but they are idiots. The protections in the USC are rooted in the enlightenment ideals of the natural rights of humans.

      --
      "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
    22. Re:Misleading... by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      Ahhh yes, that little nugget never fails to make me smirk or grin.

      *sips coffee*

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      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    23. Re:Misleading... by adona1 · · Score: 1

      Don't count on the Australian Government to try to protect Assange. The Prime Minister has already said that the Wikileaks releases are illegal, despite being later unable to clarify what law was broken.

      Essentially, if America's Attorney General demanded Assange, then Australia's Goverment would bend over backward to comply.

      --
      Between the falling angel and the rising ape
    24. Re:Misleading... by currently_awake · · Score: 2

      Most of the inmates in Guantanamo bay are accused (not charged) of breaking US law in a foreign (not USA) country. You are making the mistake of thinking the US gov must follow the laws, where it's already been clearly shown that's not true.

    25. Re:Misleading... by click2005 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Harassing Assange Might Make Exposers Reconsider

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    26. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the illegal act was to leak material that was classified.

      Classified documents become declassified once they're in the wild. You can't put the cat back in the bag, you can't pretend that you know nobody made a copy or leaked even the stuff that Wikileaks didn't run with.

      If they're no longer classified, they're no longer illegal to trade or leak anymore.

    27. Re:Misleading... by RLaager · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Retroactively granting someone immunity (which is a limited form of retroactively making something legal) is very different from making something retroactively illegal. For example, if Congress were to repeal the prohibitions on marijuana and apply that retroactively, people could be released from jail. On the other hand, if Congress made possession of ibuprofen illegal retroactively, the fact that someone owned Advil (and took it all) last year could land them in jail. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that making something legal retroactively would not run afoul of the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto laws.

      I'm not taking a position, in this post, on the wiretapping immunity law itself, the legality of said wiretapping, or the legality of Congress granting such immunity.

    28. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh don't be silly. That's why they have extraordinary rendition and Guantanamo bay! Not good enough for their own soil but on land rented from "Commie Bastards".

    29. Re:Misleading... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      What puzzles me is how can the US (or any country) make a law that can possibly apply to what a citizen of another country does outside the US?

      No, any country can declare anything, anywhere illegal, if it wants to. I don't understand why that would not be so.

      The US has had laws like that for a very long time, such as the Alien Tort Claims Act from 1789, which is still on the books, and still used at times. Of course, enforcing such a law can be rather tricky. Just because something is made illegal worldwide by one country, there's no obligation for any other country to recognize that or to cooperate.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    30. Re:Misleading... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      Well, they're usually idiots. Most of the guarantees of rights in the Constitution apply to 'people' or 'persons' and not merely citizens.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    31. Re:Misleading... by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Classified documents become declassified once they're in the wild.>

      By common sense, yes, by law, no. The executive order handling classified information (currently #13526) explicitly states "Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information." in part 1, section 1.1c.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    32. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      uhm maybe take a geography course? World > usa
      No amount of legislation is gonna make julian assange come under U.S jurisdiction. To do that , you need to cook up some moronic charges and get him extradited to the u.s.a, oh wait...

    33. Re:Misleading... by Teancum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There still is a rather obscure part of the U.S. Constitution:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      I don't know what part of "congress shall make no law" those guys can't figure out, but making a law to prohibit the publication of the names of people is unconstitutional. It says so right there.

      Then again, if they don't give a damn about the constitution and are willing to be so bold as to shut down a media outlet by legislation, they also don't give a damn about ex-post facto laws either.

      No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

      (Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 4)

      Some people thought it was idiotic and wasting time to actually read aloud this document at the beginning of the current session of Congress. Frankly, I don't think it gets pounded into their heads enough and that should be an annual tradition.

    34. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad it's not retroactive, if nothing else for the sake of Valerie Plame.

      meh. What am I thinking? Signing statements would obviate it.

    35. Re:Misleading... by severoon · · Score: 1

      Yes, that would be ex post facto. But it also means that Assange wouldn't be able to continue doing what he's doing.

      Of course, neither would journalists, so this probably violates the 1st Amendment. "Espionage" only applies to spies. Last I checked, spies don't generally publish what they know; only journalists do that.

      Aren't the people that leak the information actually spies, though? Why isn't that enough?

      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    36. Re:Misleading... by blair1q · · Score: 1

      That isn't how the law works.

      Watch the extradition news about Assange. It actually brings up the point that the country sending him out has to agree that a crime was committed. In many cases it has to be something that is against the law in that country as well as in the country requesting extradition. His lawyers are making bones about the differences between Swedish sexual-assault law and British law, trying to keep the extradition from happening. They're not fishing; they're working the system the way it's supposed to be worked.

      So yes, the US can declare anything illegal, and request extradition from anywhere on that basis. The country holding Assange can then decide whether or not to cough him up, and can base it either on differences in the laws or on its belief in the facts of the case (see Roman Polanski) or just out of bloody-mindedness however it decides.

      If extradition isn't involved (yet), it's a matter of Assange being careful enough never to be in the U.S. nor in a place that would agree to extradite him to the U.S. There aren't that many of them. He thought that Sweden was one, but then he got there and decided that even Sweden's laws didn't apply to him, and now he's a couple of layers deep in the mess.

      I don't actually think the law in TFA is necessary. The original espionage act is enough. This guy's just posturing.

    37. Re:Misleading... by qeveren · · Score: 2

      Funny, it doesn't say anything about 'illegal', it just says 'ex post facto Law'. It's like say, being convicted on a possession of marijuana charge, and then two weeks later they make marijuana legal. You don't get to go free because it's legal now; it wasn't legal when you committed the act.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    38. Re:Misleading... by qeveren · · Score: 1

      Because economic and military power, that's how. Might makes right, after all. :P

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    39. Re:Misleading... by Digicrat · · Score: 1

      Except it's already been done, and relatively recently: telcom companies were given retroactive immunity for participation in the Bush warantless wiretapping program.

      Make no mistake: despite what politicians of both sides of the aisle say, no Republican, and far too few Democrats, really know or agree with what's actually in the Constitution.

      Technically that's not a law, so much as a pardon or promise not to prosecute. The government can't retroactively create a law, but they are always free to retroactively rescind one or grant immunity.

      It would have been more interesting (and perhaps more constitutionally correct) though if Bush, before leaving office, wrote a Presidential Pardon to any corporation participating in the program. After all, corporations are considered to be people now...

      Disclaimer: IANAL

    40. Re:Misleading... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      it would depend on the statute, it could very easilly shorten all currently running sentences to end on the date of implementation and it could expunge the records of anyone convicted under the previous laws, it could also not do so, changing the law does not make previous convictions inherantly invalid as those people did in fact break the law. when a court overturns a law everyone gets freed since the court is declaring that it should never have been illegal in the first place.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    41. Re:Misleading... by nzap · · Score: 1

      Who thinks that? Maybe they think the parts that grants rights only applies to citizens, but it specifically states limitations of the government. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." You can't get much clearer.

    42. Re:Misleading... by russotto · · Score: 2

      That's because any such law would be illegal under the US Constitution. We have a strong prohibition against any ex post facto law, and for good reason.

      Actually, we don't. The first crack might have been the Gun Control Act of 1968, which prohibited felons from owning firearms, even if their crimes were committed before the effective date of the law. The various Megan's Law decisions widened that considerably, and US v. Comstock (allowing indefinite "civil commitment" for sex offenders following their prison term) drove the final nail in. The government need merely claim the purpose of the law is protection rather than punishment, and the ex-post-facto prohibition vanishes.

    43. Re:Misleading... by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You seem to think things forbidden by the constitution can't be done.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    44. Re:Misleading... by tragedy · · Score: 1

      The problem with being able to make things like that legal retroactively is that it effectively completely nullifies the constitution. Want slavery? Pass a law allowing it and enslave people without due process of law (it's actually still constitutional to do it with due process of law, which is pretty disturbing). Wait for it to work its way through the courts. Right before it is inevitably declared unconstitutional, pass a new law, slightly differently worded under which you can re-enslave the people you're about to be ordered to free right after you "free" them. Then, pass a law retroactively pardoning the people involved. Voila, the constitution means nothing. You can apply the same principle to freedom of speech, right to assemble (no special laws really need to be passed there, they can just pen people up between two advancing columns of police, then arrest them for failure to disperse, hold them for a while, then release them without charges), right to bear arms, search and seizure (although, with the blatantly unconstitutional civil forfeiture situation, it seems you don't need any new special laws in that department either), etc. etc.

      Basically, if the legislators can absolve their enforcers of the consequences of violating the rules that are supposed to bind the legislators, then there are effectively _no_ laws binding the legislators. The problem is, it's not just the legislative and executive branch in on the problem. The Judicial branch either seem to conspire to neuter the constitution as well, or meekly acquiesce, possibly out of fear of being labeled an "activist judge". Otherwise, they wouldn't operate under the assumption that, when the constitution is massively violated, nothing can be done because no one has standing to sue over it.

    45. Re:Misleading... by Anachragnome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Yes, but it tries to put a stop on the next bunch of Wikileaks that are on their way..."

      Too fucking late.

      Only 4,091 of 251,287 of the diplomatic cables have been released so far.

      Lets take a look at the way things are playing out. Starting in Tunisia, we have mass protests that eventually lead to the ouster of Tunisia's ruling elite. These protests started on December 17, 2010. Wikileaks had been releasing cables relating to Tunisia starting on November 30, 2010, more then two weeks before Mohamed Bouazizi self-immolated. Next is Egypt. Demonstrations there started on January 25, 2011. Wikileaks started releasing cables from Cairo on December 13, 2010. Next, Jordan. Protests started there in late-January. Wikileaks began releasing cables regarding Jordan as early as November 30, 2010. It goes on and on...

      The fact of the matter is the events taking place there have all been preceded by cable releases that directly apply to those countries. I am surprised Brazil hasn't followed suit--plenty of cables to get people riled up in Brazil.

      Reading between the lines? You bet. So fucking what--everyone does it. It is part of our "intuition", that inner-self that tells us the truths we do not want to hear. What I see are very scared men trying ANYTHING to stem the flow of cables. Shit is changing fast and Wikileaks is most certainly NOT helping things, as far as the scared little men are concerned. They are losing power, that which they hold in the highest possible esteem. These cables are being released strategically and the little men are starting to realize the shit they are in, finally understanding the true power of truth. To what end are they being released strategically? A shift of power from the elite and corrupt. To whom? Who knows. That remains to be seen.

      The US government doesn't want Assange for execution or prosecution--they want to hold him hostage, alive, to stop the flow of cables. Nothing else will do as the little men know he has insurance. But, we all know that will not work. It is TOO FUCKING LATE. Julian knew what he was getting into, and life is full of risks.

      The train is just leaving the station, folks. The real changes are still to come. Roughly 246, 000 cables left...

    46. Re:Misleading... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      The US (with the blessing of the Aussie government) has already convicted one Aussie of being a terrorist using retrospective law, what makes you think the constitution will stop them from doing it to another Aussie?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    47. Re:Misleading... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Yes, an amendment to the Constitution could do just that. Amendments have changed portions of the Constitution before, try reading up on the ones starting after #10. ;)

    48. Re:Misleading... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      The majority of inmates in Gitmo are there because they don't properly fall under the Geneva Conventions definition of POWs. They're not linked to nations, but extra-national organizations. So there's no precedent for what to do with them, which is why it's such a big mess.

    49. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the US Government already does exactly that. Haven't you been watching the news the last few years?

    50. Re:Misleading... by RLaager · · Score: 1

      How would you define "ex post facto law"? As it turns out, my definition seems to match Calder v. Bull, which is apparently the relevant precedent in the U.S.:

      I will state what laws I consider ex post facto laws, within the words and the intent of the prohibition. 1st. Every law that makes an action , done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2nd. Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed. 3rd. Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed. 4th. Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offence, in order to convict the offender.

      -- Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. 386 (1798)

    51. Re:Misleading... by icebike · · Score: 1

      We need Constitution Impact statements filed with each bill.

      We also need a provision that if you introduce or vote for a bill that is subsequently struck down as unconstitutional you lose half your salary and half your retirement for the first offense, and your office, salary, and retirement for the next offense.

      How's that for Ex Post Facto, Mr Congressman!!!?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    52. Re:Misleading... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, there is a ton of material supposedly not released yet. So if it were passed today, it would likely prevent that future release, it apply when it is released.

      From the summery, this focuses a lot on printing/disclosure.. It's likely means to deal with future situations like you said, but if all of the leaks wasn't released already, it could cause it to matter with Assange.

    53. Re:Misleading... by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      lol.. do you really think they care about what the constitution says?

      Seriously, they just pulled stunts and tricks to get a health care bill passed that was declared unconstitutional by a court of law. They are still trying to fund that law. People are reinterpreting the constitution to create whatever authority they want whenever they want it. Look at the bastardization of the general welfare clause in the attempts to justify social spending.

      I always told people, if you don't like what it says, amend it. but if you continue to ignore or reinterpret it, eventually it will be ignored or reinterpreted. It's really a shame all those people who started this country spent so much time for a process to amend the constitution as our country's needs changes when all that seems to be needed is reworking the definition of a clause and lingual gymnastics.

    54. Re:Misleading... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Where they are hosted is meaningless, unless the law has a phrase like "It is illegal for anyone in the United States, it's Territories .... to" and I'd be surprised if this law has that phrase.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    55. Re:Misleading... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Why would that be an ex post facto law? That's like saying if you broke a law before it was a law, then can can continue to break the law after it is a law. The real question is whether the publication date is when they post it on the web or when my browser downloads it. Personally it creeps me out when the legality of an action is dependent on the actions of a third party so I'd hope it when posted rather than downloaded, but with legal stuff you just never know.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    56. Re:Misleading... by saihung · · Score: 1

      Yeah, countries (not just the USA) make things that happen outside of their own borders illegal all the time. Many countries restrict what their citizens may do, even when they're abroad. So a US citizen can be charged at home for engaging a child prostitute in Thailand, or a Singaporean prosecuted for smoking pot in Amsterdam. France gives itself the right to charge anyone who harms the French state in any of a variety of ways. National legislatures give themselves all kinds of crazy powers, but the question is always whether they'd be able to extradite. In the case of someone like Assange, unless he f'ed up and travelled to a US client state the answer is almost certainly "no." Most bilateral extradition treaties expressly exempt "political crimes" from extraditable offenses, and any state can refuse to extradite if it finds there was no valid basis or jurisdiction, if doing so would violate international human rights norms, would subject the accused to torture or other illegal treatment, etc.

    57. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, they just pulled stunts and tricks to get a health care bill passed that was declared unconstitutional by a court of law.

      Actually it's been declared unconstitutional by two courts now, and declared constitutional by two. It'll end up going to the USSC.

      People are reinterpreting the constitution to create whatever authority they want whenever they want it. Look at the bastardization of the general welfare clause in the attempts to justify social spending.

      It's only bastardization if the courts decide that it is. Otherwise it's just the accepted interpretation. Funny how both sides yell at the other for this, but turn a blind eye to their own bills.

    58. Re:Misleading... by ridgecritter · · Score: 2

      Sorry to say, we left the Constitution behind quite some time ago. In earlier times (like when I was sitting in my constitutional law class @ Boalt), you're right, it would have been ex post facto and prohibited. No more. Stuff that I would have bet my life I'd not see in the USA (warrantless wiretaps, indefinite detention without trial, etc.) is now just doin' business. No constitutional amendments needed. Just aquiescence by all concerned.

    59. Re:Misleading... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Whose signing statements? You mean Obama's?

      Signing Statements Reappear in Obama White House

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    60. Re:Misleading... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. A country can't unilaterally extend its law's jurisdiction.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    61. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So would many historical books. Going after wikileaks with such malice is stupid. They weren't and aren't to blame for US government letting it's secrets leak in the first place.

    62. Re:Misleading... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You're right, and the Bill that put ACORN out of business was a Bill of Attainder. We don't always follow the Constitution but nobody's perfect.

      (TapeCutter, as an Aussie you may not know about ACORN. It was an organization that among other things registered voters that righties in country don't want voting and helped with housing and other things in low income communities. It was done in by some highly edited video that falsely implied they were abetting prostitution and everyone jumped on the bandwagon to deny them funding.)

    63. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But only if you are in America or American... The rest of the world can follow its own laws.

    64. Re:Misleading... by Ckwop · · Score: 1

      Neither this law, nor the original version of it, would have retroactive applicability; in other words, you can't make something illegal today, and then prosecute the guy that did it yesterday

      It also wouldn't apply outside the US either, which is sort of a problem. What's to stop a Wikileaks clone starting in say, Iran, and doing the same amount of damage as Wikileaks?

      It's weird in a way, I thought America came out of the Wikileaks cables pretty well. America acted, for the most part, in private exactly as they acted in public. It's everyone else that looked like a bunch of douche bags.

      As a Brit, it's done more to repair the reputation of the US than, say, the election of President Obama. I've actually surpised myself with that sentence, but it's actually true!

    65. Re:Misleading... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Lets take a look at the way things are playing out. Starting in Tunisia, we have mass protests that eventually lead to the ouster of Tunisia's ruling elite. These protests started on December 17, 2010. Wikileaks had been releasing cables relating to Tunisia starting on November 30, 2010, more then two weeks before Mohamed Bouazizi self-immolated. Next is Egypt. Demonstrations there started on January 25, 2011. Wikileaks started releasing cables from Cairo on December 13, 2010. Next, Jordan. Protests started there in late-January. Wikileaks began releasing cables regarding Jordan as early as November 30, 2010. It goes on and on...

      The fact of the matter is the events taking place there have all been preceded by cable releases that directly apply to those countries. I am surprised Brazil hasn't followed suit--plenty of cables to get people riled up in Brazil.

      Brazil is a democracy. People don't need mass protests to overthrow their government. What surprises my is that the US hasn't followed suit.

    66. Re:Misleading... by Baldur_of_Asgard · · Score: 2

      The Constitution explicitly outlaws Ex Post Facto laws - and does so twice, to be sure.

      However, the U.S. government has a way around Constitutional limitations it does not like. It simply ignores them. They all pretend that the limitation is not there, and just do what they want.

      In recent years the usual "justification" for usurpation of power are the twin "threats" of terrorism and pedophilia. The "terrorists" are generally people who are upset because the United States government - or the thugs it supports - have been killing their friends and family; and scapegoating pedophiles is a no-brainer - they're generally too gentle and peace-loving to fight back much.

      The U.S. has now allowed pedophiles to be held indefinitely after they have served their full sentence for any crime they may have been convicted of, and even though the change allowing indefinite detention was made after their conviction. This is clearly an ex post facto law, as well as violating due process, but the Supreme Court has officially declared it's OK - so who cares what the supreme law of the land actually says?

      The U.S. has also sent agents to a foreign country (the Netherlands) to kidnap a foreign national for "crimes" committed in a foreign jurisdiction. IIRC, this happened in the 1980s, and was also connected to pedophilia. In the late 1980s the U.S. government also invaded Panama in order to enforce U.S. laws there, despite not having any legal jurisdiction, more recently the U.S. government has exercised jurisdiction on British businessmen who operated gambling websites based in central America (IIRC), and the U.S. and Britain have both declared worldwide jurisdiction on pedophiles.

      So, the U.S. government has already declared the Constitution null and void, in everything but name. The U.S. government has already established the principle of allowing ex post facto laws, and the U.S. government has already established precedents to claim worldwide jurisdiction on several types of laws - and it has used the two non-threats of terrorism and pedophilia to justify them all. And, of course, the United States government is waging war on Love itself. I leave it to the reader to determine who is actually threatening the peace of the world.

    67. Re:Misleading... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Sure it can. And other countries are free to refuse to extradite to them, and set themselves at cross-purposes that may lead to economic sanctions "to fight terrorism".

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    68. Re:Misleading... by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      The US is not in a position to impose sanctions. As long as you not only live of imports but live of imported money, a trade war is the last thing the US can afford.

    69. Re:Misleading... by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

      Iceland, I reckon if Assange can get there he's safe. Though I have no evidence to back up that assertion.

      --
      If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
    70. Re:Misleading... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In fact the US's attempt to do so may ultimately keep Assange free. One of his arguments against extradition to Sweden is that once there he might subsequently be extradited to the US where the law is incompatible with British justice. He also claims that there is a real danger of being abducted by the US (extraordinary rendition) which is also unacceptable.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    71. Re:Misleading... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The US is not in a position to impose sanctions. As long as you not only live of imports but live of imported money,

      Guess you missed the currency dumping the USA has been involved in. We live on exporting funny money.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    72. Re:Misleading... by flex941 · · Score: 1

      Exactly how democracy removes the need for mass protests to overthrow their government is beyond me.
      Especially the kind of "democracy" commonly practiced nowadays.

    73. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, an amendment could. There are several parts of the main document of the Constitution that are changed by amendments, such as the popular election of senators.

    74. Re:Misleading... by ShavedOrangutan · · Score: 1

      Details like "make no law" and "shall not be infringed" are only applied selectively.

      --
      Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
    75. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. Fuck the broken status quo that we try to convince ourselves is "the best".

    76. Re:Misleading... by timeOday · · Score: 2

      Oh, I agree. But my point is, ex post facto wouldn't make me feel entirely safe in visiting the US if I had reason to think some new law was really targeting I had done in the past.

    77. Re:Misleading... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually it's been declared unconstitutional by two courts now, and declared constitutional by two. It'll end up going to the USSC.

      What courts declared it constitutional? as far as I know, unless they were reviewing the unconstitutional rulings, it doesn't matter. BTW, a court doesn't declare something constitutional, the declare it unconstitutional. You can't declare something constitutional in court, the doesn't have the ability to do that. They can only hear arguments where someone was put at a disadvantage or somehow impacted by a law where they claim a constitutional right in some way that is counter to the law. All the court can do in this case, it rule to where either the government has a right pertaining to that argument, or the argument shows the government doesn't have a right. However, that doesn't make a blanket allowance if the argument fails.

      It's only bastardization if the courts decide that it is. Otherwise it's just the accepted interpretation. Funny how both sides yell at the other for this, but turn a blind eye to their own bills.

      No, it doesn't work that way. You can't change the meaning and interpretation of something just because it suits your purpose and wait for it to somehow be ruled on otherwise. Historically, the general welfare clause has not meant what people are attempting to make it out to be, even FDR never made that claim and specifically made the alternative case in many speeches before he became president.

      But if you think it is ok to do that, then get ready for indefinite detention, get ready for the suspension of habias corpus or ignoring the 4th 5th 6th or even first amendments. Why, because when the constitution doesn't mean what it always has meant, then anyone, including those you disagree with, can change it simply by interpreting something different without any amendment process or public input. Is that what you want?

    78. Re:Misleading... by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      As a practical matter, no one has ever taken "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech" absolutely. As evidence, see the Alien and Sedition Act which (was almost certainly unconstitutional) was passed and signed by a substantial number of framers, and the universally (in legal circles at least) accepted position that Congress can make laws abridging things like libel, slander, fighting words, and obscenity.

      Also, unless you're standing next to Ayn Rand you look like the biggest fool in the room if you stake out the position that congress cannot regulate the disclosure of classified information. There are legitimate debates that can be had of the extent and type of material the gov't can classify, but under any serious analysis, Diplomatic Cables will be covered.

      Next, this bill tries to avoid the ex post facto problem by claiming to "clarify" existing law. A court will have to decide whether existing law could plausibly be read to include what this bill says it included. I'd put my money on the fact that existing espionage statutes always have extended this far.

      Finally, and most importantly, is the question of who disclosed the information. There is a very, very solid argument that under the Pentagon Papers case the the gov't won't be able to meet its burden of proof against Assange, but it is important to note that (a) Pentagon Papers did NOT say that classified information can published with impunity, and (b) the Roberts court is very different from the Burger court. There can be no (serious) doubt that the gov't can bring down the hammer on whoever leaked these documents, the only question is if they can go after the publisher.

    79. Re:Misleading... by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      So ... is civil rights legislation constitutional? What about privacy based legislation? Under what enumerated power? Do you want privacy and civil rights legislation to be enacted? Do you want your congresscritter weighing his salary against the likelihood that Scalia will be able to round up 4 other Justices to say that the government can extrodiarily render you unto Algeria? That the police can scan your house with FLIR? That they can attach a GPS to your car w/o a warrant?

    80. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just as a digression on the Brazil subject, if you actually read the cables about Brazil, there's nothing there that states that the government has been screwing the people and spreading their legs to the US, and although there are a lot of flaws in the Brazilian government, the government is not autocratic. Corruption in Brazil might be very high, but the guys who do the corruption were elected by the people, and get re-elected by the people without needing to cheat on the election (which are widely considered some of the most transparent in the world).
      The middle east is an entirely different beast, their current status is a direct result of Western interference in their affairs, and any confirmation that the rulers have made deals with the west is enough to spark trouble.

    81. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What puzzles me is how can the US (or any country) make a law that can possibly apply to what a citizen of another country does outside the US?

      I see you've not heard of the ICC.

    82. Re:Misleading... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that's what Manuel Noriega thought too. The United States actually has a reputations for prosecuting certain crimes far more aggressively than would be expected and with diminished regard for jurisdictional complications; such as First Degree Murder, Rape and various international organized criminal endeavors. Assange could easily be better off being tried for rape in Sweden and subsequently protected from the US by virtue of the prohibition against double jeopardy.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    83. Re:Misleading... by MaDeR · · Score: 1

      They already did it. You need key to decode it, though. This key will be released immediately if anything funny will happen to Assagne. Judging by tempo of releasing cables, this should be enough for a while.

      --
      What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
    84. Re:Misleading... by MaDeR · · Score: 1

      "how can the US (or any country) make a law that can possibly apply to what a citizen of another country does outside the US?"
      As other said, yes they can and will.

      Anyway, problem is different - that Yankees thinks that Earth belong to them (reminds me of world map according to USA courtesy of uncyclopedia - you know which). And later you USAns wonder why so much people do not like you... so much that they cannot be dismissed as terrorists or other doubleunplusgood persons.

      --
      What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
    85. Re:Misleading... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that's what Manuel Noriega thought too. The United States actually has a reputations for prosecuting certain crimes far more aggressively than would be expected and with diminished regard for jurisdictional complications; such as First Degree Murder, Rape and various international organized criminal endeavors.

      There is a little detail that it took an act of war to extend US jurisdiction there (for all practical purposes Panama was conquered by US at that point).

      Assange could easily be better off being tried for rape in Sweden and subsequently protected from the US by virtue of the prohibition against double jeopardy.

      This would be the stupidest idea ever expressed on Slashdot, if you exclude Microsoft astroturfers. Double jeopardy does not apply to being charged with multiple crimes, and on top of that Sweden can just refuse to prosecute Assange once he is extradited, and act as an agent for US from that point.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    86. Re:Misleading... by Walkingshark · · Score: 1

      IMHO it's not as good as "weapon of mass destruction related program activities," from the SOTU speech.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    87. Re:Misleading... by Walkingshark · · Score: 1

      Funny, it doesn't say anything about 'illegal', it just says 'ex post facto Law'. It's like say, being convicted on a possession of marijuana charge, and then two weeks later they make marijuana legal. You don't get to go free because it's legal now; it wasn't legal when you committed the act.

      This is completely wrong. You do not understand how the legal system works in this regard.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    88. Re:Misleading... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Mass protests are always good, of course, but in a democracy, you don't need them to overthrow your government. Your government is automatically overthrown every 4 or 5 years, and then you get to elect a new one.

    89. Re:Misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, a court doesn't declare something constitutional, the declare it unconstitutional. You can't declare something constitutional in court, the doesn't have the ability to do that.

      Jesus. Yes, I know that. I thought it was quite obvious that the meaning there was that the courts didn't find the law to be unconstitutional. Didn't realize you were going to be so pedantic about it.

      No, it doesn't work that way. You can't change the meaning and interpretation of something just because it suits your purpose and wait for it to somehow be ruled on otherwise. Historically, the general welfare clause has not meant what people are attempting to make it out to be, even FDR never made that claim and specifically made the alternative case in many speeches before he became president.

      It's precisely how it works. The Constitution has its original wording, and then hundreds of years of cases established the actual meaning of the Constitution and the laws that are based on it. There's precedent, which is generally abided by, but still overturned sometimes. If you were correct, then every instance of a court interpreting something differently than another court did, or every incidence of a precedent being overturned is a bastardization. Is that what you're arguing?

      But if you think it is ok to do that, then get ready for indefinite detention, get ready for the suspension of habias corpus or ignoring the 4th 5th 6th or even first amendments. Why, because when the constitution doesn't mean what it always has meant, then anyone, including those you disagree with, can change it simply by interpreting something different without any amendment process or public input. Is that what you want?

      I can't tell if you're joking here, or just don't know much history. Please clarify.

    90. Re:Misleading... by flex941 · · Score: 1

      Containing (for the most part) the same people in different order.
      Containing the same parties (with same agenda, just different words)
      in different proportions. Yeah, dream come true. This is not overthrowing.
      It's just a stirring happening regularly.

    91. Re:Misleading... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Well, that's a matter of choice. If you can mobilize enough people to overthrow a government, you should also be able to mobilize enough to elect one.

    92. Re:Misleading... by flex941 · · Score: 1

      The problem is not about mobilizing enough people to elect a government. The problem is that the government after the election will be (about) the same it was before. Choice to elect somebody new (with new and sincere agenda) is pretty much nonexistent. And even if somebody "new" comes in, he/she/it will be corrupted before you can blink your eyes even one time. You know, power just ruins people. And it's easier to walk the path somebody (everybody) has walked before. Conclusion - democracy is just a joke. It's no better than other forms of governing. Enlightened dictator would almost certainly be better than the "entertainment" democracy we tend to have nowadays.

    93. Re:Misleading... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If everybody in power is by definition corrupt, overthrowing the government isn't going to help you either.

  3. de facto by Apocryphos · · Score: 0

    Are they making it retroactive then?

    1. Re:de facto by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I believe that would be an ex post facto law, which is expressly forbidden by the US Constitution. Whether information published after (and if) the law is passed would be protected by the 1st amendment is another issue.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:de facto by Nichotin · · Score: 1

      They might not be able to prosecute him for what has already been done, but what about future leaks?

    3. Re:de facto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ex Post Facto is unconstitutional.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

    4. Re:de facto by idontgno · · Score: 3

      I think the "facto" phrase you're thinking of is "Ex post facto. As in "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." (Section 9 of Article I of the United States Constitution).

      So no, it won't be made retroactive, because no amount of OMG WAR ON TERROR fearmongering will make the US Supreme Court sustain an overtly unconstitutional law.

      Well, almost none. But at least recently, the Supremes have resisted the siren call of undeclared war and "no express grant of rights".

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    5. Re:de facto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe that would be an ex post facto law, which is expressly forbidden by the US Constitution. Whether information published after (and if) the law is passed would be protected by the 1st amendment is another issue.

      The Republican Party, and many Democrats don't believe that the Constitution applies to non-Citizens.

    6. Re:de facto by v1 · · Score: 1

      The Republican Party, and many Democrats don't believe that the Constitution applies to non-Citizens.

      and if you're an American citizen, they delcare you an "enemy combatant" and snatch you off to gitmo in the night.

      What a lovely place we live in.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    7. Re:de facto by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      The Republican Party, and many Democrats don't believe that the Constitution applies to non-Citizens.

      But they do believe that the Constitution applies to laws of the United States.

    8. Re:de facto by artor3 · · Score: 1

      no amount of OMG WAR ON TERROR fearmongering will make the US Supreme Court sustain an overtly unconstitutional law.

      Oh how I wish that were true, but the Roberts court is thoroughly corrupt. Bear in mind - four of the justices decide cases entirely on the desires of their party. If the Republicans want to see Assange in jail (and boy do they ever) then the best possible outcome is a 5-4 decision with Kennedy joining Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan. Recently there was just such a decision in Boumediene v Bush to uphold habeus corpus rights. Who knows if a bit more fearmongering might push Kennedy over the edge?

    9. Re:de facto by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I believe it isn't an ex post facto law because it's about the publication of names of protected individuals and a big part of it will depend on the legal definition of what a publication date is on an online document. If it goes the online documents are published on demand then things will get interesting.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    10. Re:de facto by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I believe it isn't an ex post facto law because it's about the publication of names of protected individuals and a big part of it will depend on the legal definition of what a publication date is on an online document. If it goes the online documents are published on demand then things will get interesting.

      True - does the original date something was made available online determine when it was published or does making something available online constitute an ongoing act of publication? Print is pretty easy since there is a tangible item put out but online content can be removed from the public. At any rate, if Assange would remove the material prior to the bill being signed into law (if it were to pass) then he would be protected under the Constitution.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    11. Re:de facto by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I believe that would be an ex post facto law, which is expressly forbidden by the US Constitution. Whether information published after (and if) the law is passed would be protected by the 1st amendment is another issue.

      The Republican Party, and many Democrats don't believe that the Constitution applies to non-Citizens.

      Doesn't that make all foreigners technically outlaws? This concept makes me extremely uncomfortable, and it feels like it belongs in a highly fascist society.

      Of course some people argue that that is exactly what the US is, but I'd expect that only a small minority would actually want their country to go that far.

  4. Can this be applied retroactively? by pipatron · · Score: 1

    In Sweden, we can't apply laws retroactively, that is, if something is still legal at the time you do it, you have not suddenly committed a crime just because someone passes a new law. How is the situation in the US?

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    1. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      The US Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws in Article 1, Section 9. So, no.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. It's in the Constitution, Article One Section Nine: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

    3. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Firehed · · Score: 1

      Of course, we have the minor problem that nobody in government has glanced at or otherwise considered the contents of the Constitution since... I'm going to say 9/12/2001.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    4. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't remember anything particular happening on Sunday, december 9th, 2001.

    5. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ideally it's the same, practically they'll probably state that since wikileaks is still active, Julian Assange will have been violating the law as soon as it's passed (Unless of course they state it's from the time the law was DRAFTED, not passed. I'd be somewhat amused to see that happen with the modern US political/legal system.)

      Currently though, yes, it is just like Sweden, you can't be convicted for something done before it was a crime, as well as having a statute of limitations on many crimes of 1, 5, 10, or 20 years I believe, depending on the severity (With murder and certain others I believe having an indefinite one, although I haven't researched that, and have seen differing reports of 20 year statute even for murder, and not.)

      YMMV IANAL, ETC.

    6. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the Frontal Lobe of the USA was destroyed the day before.

    7. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come on, since when does what the constitution says actually matter?

    8. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't remember the US changing the MMDDYYYY format to DDMMYYYY, either.

      This IS an article about the United States, after all...

    9. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      And that's why I always use CCYY-MM-DD format.

      That and you can compare two dates as strings to see which one is earlier.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    10. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't remember anything particular happening on Sunday, december 9th, 2001.

      Americans typically write dates in middle-endian format MM/DD/YYYY. He's referring in this case to the day after the 11 Sept 2001 attacks.

    11. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't it be nice if we all just settled on ISO 8601? 2001-09-12 sorts nicely.

    12. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you live in a part of the world that lists dates in an absurdly backwards fashion.

    13. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by tombeard · · Score: 1

      I think you mean 12 April 1861.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    14. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone is using the little-endian date format dd/mm/yyyy. This date was in middle-endian mm/dd/yyyy. The poster was referring to September 12th 2001, which had a lot of things happening on it. I guess you probably knew all this, but if we were to use only one way to display dates, big-endian should be the correct way, since it is the only one that has been standardized in ISO 8601. This format is yyyy/mm/dd, but ISO 8601 specifies separator as "-" instead of "/" as in: yyyy-mm-dd.

    15. Re:Can this be applied retroactively? by alexo · · Score: 1

      I don't remember anything particular happening on Sunday, december 9th, 2001.

      The incumbent Igor Smirnov won the presidential elections in the breakaway republic of Transnistria.

  5. article 1 section 12 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, nor any law impairing the obligation of contracts, shall ever be passed, and no conviction shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture of estate.

    1. Re:article 1 section 12 by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Well, we have laws impairing the obligation of contracts and those that result in the forfeiture of estate through conviction, so it's only a matter of time before the rest of the section is ignored as well.

    2. Re:article 1 section 12 by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Since when?
      What laws allows you to convict the dead and take their former assets?

    3. Re:article 1 section 12 by dryeo · · Score: 1

      They sue or convict the assets. Google civil forfeiture. As an added bonus, allows them to get around that pesky due process stuff.
      Supreme court didn't have any problem with ex post facto laws being applied to people who'd already been convicted of sex crimes (sex offenders list)

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  6. Uh... what? by TriezGamer · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure exactly why this would apply to Assange. US law, last I checked, doesn't allow for prosecution of an act committed while it was still legal.

    1. Re:Uh... what? by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 2

      http://vlex.com/vid/sec-disclosure-classified-information-19190926

      if he didn't pull the information down from the site after it gets passed, he'd be in violation of the first paragraph - namely "or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person" .

      At that point he could be prosecuted.

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    2. Re:Uh... what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Obviously if you violate the SHIELD act you are a terrorist and will be sent to Gitmo.

      Your arguments against ex post facto laws and due process, et al, will all be considered at some future date when you may or may not stand trial, but they sound intriguing let me say!

    3. Re:Uh... what? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's also questionable how it could apply to a non-citizen for an act that didn't take place on U.S. soil...

    4. Re:Uh... what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It can't apply to a non-citizen for an act that didn't take place on U.S. soil. No question about it.

    5. Re:Uh... what? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Only if he hosted it in the USA.
      Should I be awaiting arrest for all the "underage" drinking I did outside the USA?

    6. Re:Uh... what? by mywhitewolf · · Score: 1

      they could treat it like a terrorist / espionage act & therefor "for the security of the nation, we will pursue those who engage in this behaviour across country borders".

      which makes things interesting because the government who receives the information would consider the American "spy" would be conducting espionage and breaking their law.

      Best way to ruin relations with your allies though.
      America: "this Australian has told everyone about the spy we've got in australia, we are going to charge him as a terrorist"
      Australia should say : "Illegally kidnapping an Australian for a terrorist act by informing the Australian public about illegal spying against the Australian government... this is an act of war."
      Australia will say : "Naughty reporters... here you go America, wanna BJ while we are here too?"

    7. Re:Uh... what? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a base on the island of Cuba full of non-citizens who did acts on soil that wasn't U.S?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    8. Re:Uh... what? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yes, all 100% illegal! I never said our government had any respect for law or Constitution.

    9. Re:Uh... what? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Only if he hosted it in the USA.

      Host what? You mean the stolen US Government classified documents? Is that really necessary?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    10. Re:Uh... what? by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Not till there's a reason to nab you.

    11. Re:Uh... what? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      1. Not stolen, copied
      2. Not copied by him
      3. If he does that outside the USA, what law in his nation is he breaking?

  7. Damn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course, this lets Mr. Novak, The Dick Cheney, et al. off the hook for "leaking" Natalie Plame's name...(OK, so Novak is dead...), as it's not supposed to be all that Constitutional, etc. to pass laws that retroactively incriminate people, not that it doesn't happen...

  8. Constitutional? I doubt it. by davidwr · · Score: 2

    I don't see how the courts would uphold this outside of wartime (in wartime courts routinely let Congress and the Executive Branch run all over the Constitution), assuming the publisher didn't have "dirty hands" in obtaining the information in the first place.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Moot point.

      It IS wartime, and shall likely be for a very long time to come....

    2. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Who cares about the constitution? Well, you and I likely do, but the government as of late doesn't seem to.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    3. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      in wartime courts routinely let Congress and the Executive Branch run all over the Constitution

      Doesn't this policy implicitly encourage warmongering?

    4. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err.. given that between the various "wars" being pursued by the US government, we've had about ... zero days of actual non-wartime in the past few decades. I can certainly see Congress letting this one pass.

    5. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Question: When was the last time the US was not at war?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1, Troll

      I don't see how the courts would uphold this outside of wartime

      Well, then, it's a good thing we've always been at war with Eastasia.

    7. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      You know that the United States almost constantly been involved in a "small war" since 1815 right?

      Be it the Indian Wars, unrest in China, the Banana Republic conflicts, the Spanish-American War and the Philippines, two World Wars and then the Cold War, somewhere there have been Americans fighting or getting ready to fight.

      The biggest gap I can think of off the top of my head would be the end of the Indian Wars in winter/spring 1891 to the Spanish American War and China in 1898.

    8. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our entire system encourages it, so yes. Remember, war is the largest profit generator in existence.

    9. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 1

      It's not 'Wartime' because war has not formally been declared against anyone (outside of the conceptual 'terror'). It's an extended military conflict, which is perpetuating some sort of oilmongering deal Bush began.

      Why Obama tolerates it continuing is well beyond me. It would only require a single command, as he IS Commander-in-Chief, to bring every single one of our troops home. Someone must have some good dirt on him...

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    10. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But we are at war we are allways at war, 'Terror', 'Drugs' ,'Evolution' - chose your posion.

    11. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Enter+the+Shoggoth · · Score: 1

      We've always been at war with Eastasia.

      --
      Andy Warhol got it right / Everybody gets the limelight
      Andy Warhol got it wrong / Fifteen minutes is too long.
    12. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: When was the last time the US was not at war?

      It's better to ask when was the last time we were at war. We are not currently at war and we haven't been for sometime...

    13. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by tombeard · · Score: 1

      We have not been at war since 1945. Anything excused as a "war power" since then is completely bogus.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    14. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Since the Kennedy assassination, every US President knows what happens if he opposes the CIA war machine.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    15. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      War on Drugs began on June 17, 1971
      I'm sure there are others.. ;-)

    16. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by johnjaydk · · Score: 1

      Question: When was the last time the US was not at war?

      Before the first Roosevelt administration. That is the guy who started the proud tradition of meddling in others countries affairs.

      --
      TCAP-Abort
    17. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometime before 1620 when the Pilgrims landed.

    18. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by upside · · Score: 1

      Sure, you've lost 100,000+ young men in golfing accidents around the world.

      http://americanveterans.homestead.com/links.html
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States

      Looking at those I noticed more civilians have now died in Iraq than you lost soldiers in WWII. Nice.

      Each time a new president is elected in the US, I ask myself which part of the world will get a taste of American exports this time. I'm certain I will not see a single presidential term during which Americans aren't involved in a military conflict somewhere. It's remarkable how you manage to keep the population motivated.

      I found the recent US political debate following the Giffords shooting quite remarkable, journalists exhorting how Democrats and Republicans should recognize each other as humans and should try to settle differences in a civil manner. The rest of the world will have to wait to get the same recognition, it seems.

      --
      I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
    19. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US hasn't been at war since February 10th, 1947.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Declarations_of_war
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947

    20. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: When was the last time the US was not at war?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

    21. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are not currently at war and we haven't been for sometime...

      lol

    22. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Horza66 · · Score: 2

      We've always been at war with Eastasia

    23. Re:Constitutional? I doubt it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last war was WWII. We have not declared war since.

  9. Although this might stop wikileaks in the US by pipatron · · Score: 1

    I guess this is some sort of panic attack to be able to legally block wikileaks from the US and that make sure that Assange actually can be taken to court if it shows that he allowed someone in the US to take part of any of the leaked cables after this law is passed..

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  10. Seems to me... by sdguero · · Score: 1

    That we need less punishment for publishing state secrets as the government become more and more overbearing with things like the Patriot Act, foreign wars, and free market manipulation. What are we supposed to do when the government runs afoul if that same government can throw us in prison for talking about it? Representative King is more interested in having his name in the papers than representing the people. Protecting intelligence assets is the responsibility of the intelligence community, not the publishers that it gets leaked too.

    1. Re:Seems to me... by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Representative King is more interested in having his name in the papers than representing the people.

      Welcome to the United States, my friend! Enjoy your stay.

  11. Joke by sexconker · · Score: 1

    Our politicians are a joke.

    Julian Assange is not subject to US law.

    No American citizen who has "publish[ed] the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the US military or intelligence community" in the past would be affected by this law.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    1. Re:Joke by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Please! Any information the government deems as a secret is no longer considered free speech. Sure, that doesn't make sense at all but it's completely true!

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  12. No by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    That is one of the things the Constitution has a specific thing to say about. Article I Section 9 Paragraph 3 says "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

    So if the law were passed it would make such an act illegal in the future, but would not apply to what has already been done.

    Now what this would do it make it illegal for Wikileaks to release more information along the lines specified in the bill. Just because they had it before the law was passed wouldn't mean they could freely release them after the law was passed, if the law made it illegal to release information of that nature.

    1. Re:No by mywhitewolf · · Score: 1

      Now what this would do it make it illegal for Wikileaks to release more information along the lines specified in the bill.

      no it wont, Wikileaks isn't under American jurisdiction.

    2. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This does not apply to tax laws, which can be retroactively enacted on past income owing to ways things can be "carried forward" in accounting. Also, territorial claims don't apply, nor do sentencing laws for certain crimes. Also does not apply to various "sex offender" laws.

    3. Re:No by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Wikileaks could publish the key to the insurance file before the bill was signed into law. Do you think that is what they want?

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
  13. Marvel should sue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Did no one else see "SHIELD act" and immediately think Marvel Comics?

    I half expected the link to lead to an Onion article with Nick Furry on it

    1. Re:Marvel should sue by VRisaMetaphor · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'd ask you who "Nick Furry" is, but I'm afraid of what the answer might be.

    2. Re:Marvel should sue by JonySuede · · Score: 0

      He was recruited by Tony Stark to form the SHIELD alliance, the nemesis of the Hydra organization.

      --
      Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
    3. Re:Marvel should sue by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      I'm putting my chips in with HYDRA from now on. At least Molok is upfront about his world domination schemes.

    4. Re:Marvel should sue by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      No, but Nick Fury was...

    5. Re:Marvel should sue by Laurence0 · · Score: 1

      He was recruited by Tony the Tiger to form the FIELD alliance, the nemesis of the Liger organisation.

  14. Espionage Definition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Espionage involves an individual obtaining information that is considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."

    Wasn't the information considered secret in the first place?
    Why do they need to clarify U.S. law by saying that it is an act of espionage to publish the "protected names" of American intelligence sources?

  15. How about by Gonoff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Bills should be introduced in the USA, UK, Australia and lots more places saying things like

    It is a crime to hide things from the electorate. (This should not be mixed up with "Freedom of Information acts" that rarely work.)
    It is a crime to govern by misdirection of public attention.
    It is a crime to protect the powerful to the detriment of the weak or less powerful.
    It is a crime to take away civil rights, whatever the state of the nation
    It is a crime to introduce 'knee jerk' legislation.
    It is a crime to retrospectively criminalise something. It can only be criminalised from the introduction of the law
    It is a crime to give or accept identifiable corporate campaign donations

    That last one would be the one that would upset many politicians and large companies.

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    1. Re:How about by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      That last one would be the one that would upset many politicians and large companies.

      No, it would violate an individual's right to free speech. Because money is speech (somehow)! Sure, it causes so many problems and the average person has no chance against people with seemingly unlimited supplies of money (outside of unrealistic boycotting, which may or may not work), but it's speech somehow, and therefore we can't make that a crime!

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    2. Re:How about by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      It is a crime to protect the powerful to the detriment of the weak or less powerful.

      So, the US emergency response plans would become illegal, where the government is scattered across the US while regular citizens are left to die?

      It is a crime to retrospectively criminalise something. It can only be criminalised from the introduction of the law

      This is already illegal in the US and, more than likely, the UK and Australia as well.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is not that money isn't speech -- of course it is, people with more money are better able to express themselves and limiting what they do with that money limits their expression. The problem is that we don't really want free speech in terms of political campaigns. No one wants to admit that, but what we really want is a little campaign socialism, where the state controls how much spending is allowed/etc. While that's definitely an impingement on certain freedoms it might be the only real way to ensure we don't lose them all.

    4. Re:How about by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      The problem is not that money isn't speech -- of course it is

      How?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    5. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is a crime to introduce 'knee jerk' legislation.

      The funny thing is that this would itself be "'knee jerk' legislation".

    6. Re:How about by Ayashii+ · · Score: 2

      While I do agree on most counts, I don't think that hiding things from the electorate is a crime, it's more of a sheer necessity. A lot of times things that aren't deemed "morally acceptable" by the masses need to be done for the greater good of a country, also there are some things that NEED to be kept a secret to be of any use (just think what would happen if informations about undercover operations or police investigations would be made public... they'd be useless). Sure they should be revealed 30 years down the line and involved people may need to be judged for them, but leaking them before that should be a crime, one of the worst ones that you could commit against a country. Depending on the situation (if you risk to endanger many lives by that action, even if nothing happens) it should be AT LEAST treaded as multiple counts of attempted murder. Even worse if it's a situation of war. Believe me, you don't want to be down there fighting for your country and having to fear both your enemies and some dumbass at home that tells everyone, enemies included, informations about you :\

    7. Re:How about by CrazyDuke · · Score: 1

      You are arguing with people who make assloads of money doing nothing but talking shit and occasionally signing something. Of course they equate money with speech.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
    8. Re:How about by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Corporations are not individuals. Let the people who work for it or own it give donations. I would prefer no money be used this way, but the US electorate is too brainwashed for that.

    9. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of times things that aren't deemed "morally acceptable" by the masses need to be done for the greater good of a country

      What a load of shit.

    10. Re:How about by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      I mentioned the word corporate. Individuals would still have their right to free speech.
      It is a legal fiction that corporations should be treated like people. They are not. Neither are other corporate bodies like pressure groups and 'think tanks'.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    11. Re:How about by Archwyrm · · Score: 1

      Machiavelli, is that you?

      --
      Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Mussolini
    12. Re:How about by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      Sure it needs time limit but 30 years is ridiculous though. It should be months for most things a couple of years for some and perhaps 5-10 years for a very few exceptional things.
      The police do not hide things from the electorate. They have to tell us what they have been up to in the past - just not minute by minute. Police informants deserve anonymity. We need to know what the police are doing - personal information should be confidential.
      The same applies to the military. We need to know what they have done - not what soldiers are doing this afternoon. If an operation is in progress, they can tell the public when it is finished and the matter is dealt with.
      The only thing that deserves permanent privacy is personal information. This may be where politicians seem to deserve something better than they already have. If it does not affect his job, I do not care who my prime minister/secretary of state/chancellor/etc is sleeping with. If it comes out in the divorce courts that is the same as it would be if you or I was in that situation. If I expect my personal information to be kept secret, it is fair that the same information is private for them. No more and no less.

      Government activities need to be scrutinised while people still actually care about them. Who cares what our leaders did in 1981? What happened in 2006 is relevant to most of us and if we knew what the finance departments were doing 6 months ago, we could consider making them answer for it...

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    13. Re:How about by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      No. Protecting the weak would be allowed. You can even plan for emergencies where ordinary people suddenly become needy, less powerful and weak.
      Or do you mean where they plan to take all the 'important' people underground in case of invasion/nuclear war. That is very dubious. Why should the taxpayer fund that?
      What I said was a law should be passed to stop the powerful being protected in ways that harm those who need protection.

      Already illegal is it? That is precisely what is at the top of this article. Yes it is illegal in the UK and presumably Australia. Someone feels that it is legal to do this in the USA. I would look to your constitution about that...

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    14. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it doesn't violate anyones right to free speech, no corporation may contribute to any politial process or party, there is no denial of free speech to anyone.

      Name my an corporation that doesn't have an individual in it..... Any individual can contribute and their contribution is capped so all people are equal in that respect. No corporation should be given the same freedoms of a person EVER. And the corporate shield removed from them who run it.

      The guy who runs a corporation, he can donate himself, his corporation should not have that right and thoughs who are employeed by it should not be compelled to donate.

      Sorry but saying that not allowing a corporation to donate is a violation of free speech rights is about like saying crushing a car is murder as the corporation isn't a person. If it was, it could be imprisoned for breaking the law or killed outright.

    15. Re:How about by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Money itself is not speech.
      The act of giving money can be considered speech, or communication of approval -- just as flashing headlights at other drivers is a form of sending a message.

    16. Re:How about by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Already illegal is it? That is precisely what is at the top of this article. Yes it is illegal in the UK and presumably Australia. Someone feels that it is legal to do this in the USA. I would look to your constitution about that...

      Huh? The US Constitution directly prohibits ex post facto laws. So, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    17. Re:How about by nzap · · Score: 1

      Those seem subjective to me. In that case the decision would be left up to the judges. I can imagine how well that would turn out.

    18. Re:How about by Ayashii+ · · Score: 1

      Well the 30years was really too much I admit (even because all "secret stuff" at least here, becomes public after 20 years anyway, or at least, it should), I just went random on that, didn't put much thought on the exact duration. Still some things need to be kept secret till they are done. Sometimes a couple of weeks is enough, sometimes years need to pass, the important thing is not to let public opinion (and mostly journalists acting like vultures ready to criminalize anything to get a better share, so most of them) interfere or hinder the activity of the government, police and military. Anyway no, it's not Macchiavelli, just a fan, but I feel sometimes that guy was a bit too moderate :D

    19. Re:How about by SaroDarksbane · · Score: 0

      No, it would violate an individual's right to free speech. Because money is speech (somehow)!

      No court has said that. You will probably cite Citizens United, but that decision didn't allow corporations to donate as much money to a campaign as they wanted (as some less-than-honest members of the media have portrayed it). It simply said that the government cannot stop a group of citizens (or a corporation) from publishing actual speech under the guise of campaign finance reform.

      So Microsoft is still not free to give $$$$ to a political candidate, but they are free to use their money to make a political video about a candidate and publish it. This is, unquestionably, a free speech issue.

    20. Re:How about by ekhben · · Score: 1

      Is it detrimental to the weak or less powerful to keep a functioning government during an emergency?

      Wikipedia has a nice article on ex post facto law. It's unconstitutional in the U.S., but happens anyway. it's constitutionally OK in Westminster systems like the UK and Australia, but viewed unfavourably - and happens anyway.

      (Also, GP, retrospective is probably not the word you intended to use; try retroactive).

    21. Re:How about by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      The act of giving money can be considered speech

      It can? I would call that an action.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    22. Re:How about by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Freedom is not synonymous with safety. In fact, freedom is risky, dangerous, and essential.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    23. Re:How about by tombeard · · Score: 1

      So it is acceptable to act immorally? Is slavery freedom? Are lies truth? We could power the world with an Orwell generator!

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    24. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could never happen, as government would cease to function unless it simply ignored them.

      Secrecy is necessary in lots of cases, and #3 would legalise almost all burglary. #4 essentially says that no legislation can ever be passed ever again, irrespective of the circumstances of the time, and without regard to whether it is actually valid.

    25. Re:How about by mcvos · · Score: 1

      So first we make this law, and then we lock up all politicians. I'm okay with that.

    26. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a crime to retrospectively criminalise something. It can only be criminalised from the introduction of the law

      It is a crime to give or accept identifiable corporate campaign donations

      That last one would be the one that would upset many politicians and large companies.

      Already is illegal in the UK - it's called corruption. Straight and simple - no idea why it's allowed in the US?

    27. Re:How about by MaDeR · · Score: 1

      "How?"

      I have money, I make rules. And incidentally rule that money is free speech is one of them.

      Now you know.

      --
      What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
    28. Re:How about by MaDeR · · Score: 1

      "A lot of times things that aren't deemed "morally acceptable" by the masses need to be done for the greater good of a country"
      Like what? Something like making boom in block and killing russia cizitens to (re)start Chechen war by russia secret services? Hell, why shooting so far, you have Guatamino already. I can't wait for true American Branded Concentration Camps(TM)(C)(R)(whatever).

      BTW, someone told you that you are morally abhorrent?

      --
      What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
  16. clarification by mug+funky · · Score: 2

    in a way this could be good.

    now there's no doubt about what needs to be redacted, and wikileaks can get on with their job without that extra accusation being thrown at them. just redact protected names and be done with it.

    1. Re:clarification by sgrover · · Score: 1

      and who decides what names are "protected"? And when they become protected? If the name is added to the protected list AFTER documents have been published, is anyone really breaking the law? Closing the barn door after the critters escape is not doing any good.

    2. Re:clarification by hackingbear · · Score: 5, Funny

      Easy. They just need to publish the list of the names on government websites, so everybody know what not to publish.

    3. Re:clarification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm wondering how this isn't abused.

      If you want someone locked up, claim that a (even fictitious) person is an agent and protected. How else are you, in defense, going to prove otherwise? It's not like you're going to find data on them, and if you do, well, you also just worked the case against you.

      This law is what it is, nothing more than a tool to throw people in jail the gov doesn't like because they posted words online. This ass is a fellow Republican. What a dick. Yesterday, I was reading how Diane Feinstein (sp), a Dem, years ago made or wanted IED info provided online made illegal.

      Apparently no one believes in the first amendment anymore. Fact is, the government is being embarrassed by data that they didn't want released, being released because they were too god damn stupid to secure it in the first place.

    4. Re:clarification by blair1q · · Score: 1

      There was no doubt before.

      There was also no doubt that Assange could have turned it all over to the White House and had it done on the US Taxpayer's nickel. He claims the Pentagon wasn't cooperating, but he was dealing with the wrong people and in the wrong way.

    5. Re:clarification by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Should you?

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    6. Re:clarification by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Oops. Thought I was replying to mug funky. What I said, up one.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    7. Re:clarification by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      in a way this could be good.

      now there's no doubt about what needs to be redacted, and wikileaks can get on with their job without that extra accusation being thrown at them. just redact protected names and be done with it.

      ::Poof:: Suddenly every member of the US government and all persons they associate with is instantly an American intelligence source who collaborates with the US military or intelligence community.

      You know, sort of like how info that's not really a "threat to national security" yet is embarrassing to the US government finds its way under a "Classified" stamp?

      I'll bet that there will be unlimited supply of classified documents that specify any name they choose as an American intelligence source.

      The only clarification I see here is that the US will stop at nothing to silence those who reveal their embarrassments and/or corruption; 1st amendment rights be damned.

    8. Re:clarification by BatGnat · · Score: 1

      Yes but wouldn't the list of protected named be classified to begin with?

  17. Could be worse by atari2600a · · Score: 2

    Seems like a bigger deal than it is-- had Assange done what everyone told him to do & take the extra 5 minutes to censor all the names, it would still be law-abiding! Well...names of the human-rights-violators should still be left intact...

    1. Re:Could be worse by bstender · · Score: 2

      1. no names means the leaks are fairly useless to the public, who are the ones who need to know
      2. this pathetic law he's pitching is about reinforcing the state of immunity from accountability for those very criminals (himself included)
      3. they're all human rights violators, putting it politely

      --
      look sig is kool
    2. Re:Could be worse by atari2600a · · Score: 1

      touche

    3. Re:Could be worse by blair1q · · Score: 1

      1. The public's need-to-know has value in political terms. Outing informants in Spin Boldak is not relevant to anyone stateside. Knowing what they're doing that is counter to your principles of war and the rule of law is. Their names don't mean a thing to anyone but the people who want to kill them. If it turns out what they did was illegal, it's up to the courts to determine their names.

      2. Not sure I follow what you're saying, but the law is redundant with prior laws against espionage against the U.S.

      3. Who's "they" in this sentence?

    4. Re:Could be worse by bstender · · Score: 1

      1. people who dont care, dont care, wherever they are. and the rest are relevant to someone. this people who 'might be killed' is a red herring, covering for 'probably be indicted'. Nonetheless, i do believe the wikileaks org has committed itself to redacting with an excess of caution to protect the former for quite some time now.

      2. that's me mouthing off...i meant that this (yet another) blowhard is all about squashing the meme of transparency. short answer, they're crooks

      3."they" meaning the politicos with their knickers in a knot about wikileaks. they should be indicting people goddammit.

      --
      look sig is kool
  18. Systems protecting their own by SigmaTao · · Score: 0

    I understand the US government wanting to protect itself from Wikileaks and send a message to any others that it will cost them. What worries me is that from here (Australia) it appears that a large proportion of the american people think what Wikileaks is doing is unjustifiably bad. Is that really the case or is it just media hype?

    1. Re:Systems protecting their own by bstender · · Score: 1

      i suspect it is media hype, but all i have to go on is media hype. ergo whatever the media around here is hyping is generally opposite of the truth (it's bad, send help!)

      --
      look sig is kool
    2. Re:Systems protecting their own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the american governement is devolving into a scared little child. It appears to be trying to make laws and restictions that the majority or people don't want or like, mainly because it gives power to them that they shouldn't have. They then realise that everyone is out for their blood and either cave in or back away swinging their club wildly.

      It is slowely heading towards either revolt - which they keep trying to make as illegal as possible (inc. peaceful protest, marches, etc.), or totalitarianism, where the rules have gotten so good a revolt is near impossible (like 1942).

      At the end of the day, the victor says who was noble and right in the history books. I think Wikileaks is a great concept - An anonymous place for whistle-blowers to post. Shouldn't matter if it is about a company that dumps toxins into ground water, telcos harvesting private information, or governments ordering genocide. Guess which one will get you an extradition order though!

      I think that the american (citizens) who agree to extradite Assange are either following media hype, or view through the medias arguement - that wikileaks is causeing harm by nameing and describing people/events/jobs which in turn puts those people at risk. A spy is of no use when everyone knows who he is and what he does.
       

  19. If it applies to one, then to the other too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If they somehow try to apply this to Assange then they should apply it to Dick Cheney and Karl Rove for outing (or giving the orders to out) Valerie Plame.

    The GOP (actually all Congressmen) show their complete hypocrisy. They cried foul when Plame was outed and the Democrats accused the administration of being involved, but now they are jumping all over themselves to go after Assange.

  20. Recursive law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This law does not make sense. It says that it is espionage to discover US espionage? Moreover, this is the first recursive law I had ever read. For example, would that mean that a US newspaper/US attorney can be prosecuted for publishing a story about a criminal if he is a spy?

  21. But by Dyinobal · · Score: 3, Funny

    But will they be able to get Nick Fury to run S.H.I.E.L.D?

    1. Re:But by nzap · · Score: 2

      I wonder how many overpaid staff members it takes to come up with acronyms for all these bills. If we got rid of them, we could probably cut the deficit in half.

    2. Re:But by Xelrach · · Score: 1

      I doubt they even appropriated any money for a Helicarrier! Half-baked congressional legislation as always.

  22. The first part sounds like a good idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean, Securing Human Intelligence? Sounds good to me!

    1. Re:The first part sounds like a good idea... by SaroDarksbane · · Score: 0

      But if they are starting in D.C. . . . well, that's one easter egg hunt I'll pass on . . .

  23. What about by Mistakill · · Score: 1

    So, if the pass the law, people would just go Bob Smith, 123456 Weird St, Auckland, New Zealand is NOT the person who supplied the US with information... ie... youd end up with alot of 'not' words being added to documents... brilliant

  24. And they want to use the new law retroactively? by VShael · · Score: 2

    Gee, I wonder if anyone could use the SHIELD Act to prosecute Karl Rove or someone for leaking Valerie Plames CIA cover.

    Oh that's right. It's not a crime when Republicans do it.

    1. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Well, when the President does it that means that it is not illegal."

      --Richard Nixon, Republican

    2. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, I wonder if anyone could use the SHIELD Act to prosecute Karl Rove or someone for leaking Valerie Plames CIA cover.

      Oh that's right. It's not a crime when politicians do it.

      There, fixed that for you.

    3. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm no fan of rove or bush but she wasn't undercover, and it wasn't rove who leaked it either it was someone else, but of course a lib would never do anything but repeat talking points.

    4. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is. Scooter Libby was convicted of it.

      Unfortunately, it was an open secret that he wasn't the only one who was supposed to be tried for it.

    5. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by guspasho · · Score: 0

      But his co-conspirators commuted his sentence to a fine, and paid for it for him. So in Libby's case, the principle holds.

    6. Re:And they want to use the new law retroactively? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      That's not about our government so much as it's about the crooks we let into it.

  25. More legislation is needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can someone introduce a bill that outlaws backronyms?

    1. Re:More legislation is needed by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I was thinking.

      It seems like every other bill has a stupid backronym. I guess it's marketing.

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  26. we are the world? by juliuszs · · Score: 2

    So King claims jurisdiction outside of USA. Audacious, if stupid. Would he be OK with Ruritania legislating against morons being elected to US Congress on the basis that this constitutes a clear and present danger to the world? Would the USA comply with demands to extradite King and others of his ilk to be incarcerated until such time they are deemed fully functional and literate?

  27. Somethings is Rotten in the District of Columbia by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Informative

    Anonymous seems to have stumbled upon a much bigger problem. Read Glen Greenwald's piece on the collaboration between DoJ, BoA and rogue 'security' companies. Greenwald was to be personally targeted, and now he's taking names:

    It's impossible to imagine the DOJ ever, ever prosecuting a huge entity like Bank of America for doing something like waging war against WikiLeaks and its supporters. These massive corporations and the firms that serve them have no fear of law or government because they control each. That's why they so freely plot to target those who oppose them in any way. They not only have massive resources to devote to such attacks, but the ability to act without limits.

    It's his most powerful piece to date.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  28. We need S.H.I.E.L.D. by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

    "... it is an act of espionage to publish the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the US military or intelligence community."

    I agree with this statement.
    By all means, pass it as a law and then bring in Samuel L. Jackson sporting an eyepatch to start an agency named after this Bill.

  29. Backronym abuse by WombatDeath · · Score: 2

    How about a bit of legislation prohibiting the titling of bills in a manner that constitutes blatant propaganda? It's perhaps not as bad as the PATRIOT act, which is the most crotch-punchingly offensive example I've come across, but it's the same fucking ballpark. I'm not sure who should be most insulted: people who don't back the legislation, or the general public whose intelligence is held in such dim regard (and all snark aside, I don't think that most people are really all that stupid).

    If simply using sequential numbers is too boring, I propose that the opposing team be allowed free rein to add words to the title of the bill, with no right of appeal or amendment granted to the originator. In this case, for instance, the 'no' camp could insist that the title be amended to Another Nugget of Awful Legislation Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination.

    1. Re:Backronym abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still find it amusing that the second US-Iraq war (the one in the last 10 years) was originally named Operation Iraqi Liberation.

      No! That's not what it's about at all! Our interest in the Middle East is for purely altruistic purposes!

    2. Re:Backronym abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "How about a bit of legislation prohibiting the titling of bills in a manner that constitutes blatant propaganda?"

      The Confederate States tried that. Here is Article I, Section IX, paragraph 20 of the CSA constitution:
      "Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title."

      I like that idea.

    3. Re:Backronym abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or the general public whose intelligence is held in such dim regard

      The politicians aren't stupid, in fact .. they're a whole lot less stupid that all of those people who aren't really all that stupid. So if the politicians realize that there are a lot of folks out there who know what's going on.. what does it tell you that they still behave this way? These bill names are the pollies thumbing their noses at the population.. they're untouchable.

    4. Re:Backronym abuse by tombeard · · Score: 1

      Their best idea was succession. You know how the US government dealt with that.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    5. Re:Backronym abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They freed the slaves?

    6. Re:Backronym abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another Senseless Something Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination.

      Nathan

  30. Who's the enemy here? by chicago_scott · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "The bill would clarify U.S. law by saying that it is an act of espionage to publish the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the U.S. military or intelligence community."

    Anyone who would want to create a classification of people who are immune from public scrutiny is definitely an enemy of United States. That's you Rep. King.

    1. Re:Who's the enemy here? by JustNilt · · Score: 1

      No, this is more about protecting from reprisal those we've asked (OK, or blackmailed into or paid) to provide us intelligence. This protection is standard practice amongst all nations and has been for centuries. Think of it as a confidential informant in a criminal investigation if you must but these people are often killed when outed so let's not fuck around with this one, OK?

      That being said, I support Wikileaks in general. I just don't think publishing names such as these should ever be allowed or even considered. It's naive in the extreme.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    2. Re:Who's the enemy here? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      You're assuming the only way to know that something bad happened is to know the names of all the people who are doing anything.

      You don't need to know anyone's name until it's determined that something bad happened, and then you'll take them into custody and it won't matter whether they're protected or not.

      The law, on its face, is a redundant attempt to point out that Assange, in the process of trying to illuminate a few illegal acts, put a lot of other people in danger who hadn't done anything we the people of the USA would consider wrong.

    3. Re:Who's the enemy here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans don't believe that betraying your country and its government is wrong? Then why are we even having this discussion?

    4. Re:Who's the enemy here? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      It's wrong to betray my the good guys. It's not wrong to betray the bad guys. Doesn't matter whose country is involved.

  31. Hah, Hah, good one. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You obviously don't work for a telecom company.

  32. How would they know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How exactly would they know which names are protected? IRC, Wikileaks offered the government a chance to identify such names, and the govt. refused.

  33. not retroactive, but effective by v1 · · Score: 1

    wikileaks won't be able to be prosecuted for the leaks they've done, but they won't be able to make any new leaks. This isn't about retaliation or damage control, but about giving them some legal teeth for later.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  34. Publishing name by Dracos · · Score: 2

    Didn't WikiLeaks ask at least one federal department for help redacting names and other identifying info from the documents, and those departments declined to do so?

    I bet the people who drafted this Bill for him (and I don't mean his staff) didn't know that, or conveniently forgot about it.

    1. Re:Publishing name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't WikiLeaks ask at least one federal department for help redacting names and other identifying info from the documents, and those departments declined to do so?

      I bet the people who drafted this Bill for him (and I don't mean his staff) didn't know that, or conveniently forgot about it.

      Why the hell would they help do something they knew should have been, and intended later to make illegal?

    2. Re:Publishing name by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Didn't WikiLeaks ask at least one federal department for help redacting names and other identifying info from the documents, and those departments declined to do so?

      I bet the people who drafted this Bill for him (and I don't mean his staff) didn't know that, or conveniently forgot about it.

      Formally, it is irrelevant that WL asked a dept to redact out the names. It is like: "If I asked you to help me in staying legit and you refused, it will be your responsibility if I'd be doing something illegal".

      Mind you, I'm not saying that WL did something illegal.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  35. First prosecute Curveball, Scooter and Cheney by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    Today, Curveball admitted he lied to start the Iraq War.

    Millions dead - mostly civilians and drafted Iraqi soldiers.

    Bankrupt nation - both Iraq and America.

    After the war crimes trials for all three ... then they can come for Assange.

    And NOT a MOMENT before.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:First prosecute Curveball, Scooter and Cheney by PPH · · Score: 1
      1. 1. Search for the guilty
      2. 2. Punishment of the innocent
      3. 3. Promotion of the non-participants
      4. 4. ????
      5. 5. Profit!
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:First prosecute Curveball, Scooter and Cheney by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Punishment first.

      Trial second.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  36. They are Punishing the wrong person. by jameskojiro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They should throw the book and the bench at Pfc. Bradley Manning and not touch Jullian Assange. Manning was the one who STOLE the information in the first damn place.

    This amounts to trying to "kill the messenger" if the messenger was telling everyone about something he heard from from someone who stole the information. It has a bad "chilling effect" and is not good for free speech.

    It is like trying to shut down a newspaper that published stolen state secrets, instead of going after the person who stole them in the first place.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    1. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have proof Bradley Manning has done anything to warrant a book and bench throwing? Nice to see you picking and choosing who to throw under the bus.

    2. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is currently being tortured by the US government!

    3. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by Dracos · · Score: 1

      Why Manning? No one has been able to find a link between him and WikiLeaks.

    4. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by nzap · · Score: 1

      "I was just following orders" is supposedly no excuse for committing a crime, but the people who wrote the orders are definitely not exempt either. Julian Assange, Wikileaks, et al. may be liable, that is if they actually gave the orders.

    5. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they should give Bradley Manning a medal and a large sum of money for doing such a good deed in telling the world the USA's dirty secrets (if indeed he did do it).

    6. Re:They are Punishing the wrong person. by haploc · · Score: 1

      No, they should give Bradley Manning a medal and a large sum of money for doing such a good deed in telling the world the USA's dirty secrets (if indeed he did do it).

      Not only the USA's, but also the USA's view on other countries.
      The release of the cables did allow some populations to see what was going on behind the scenes in their own country and act on that.

  37. Worry about the guys leaking them by Arch_Android · · Score: 1

    The politicians need to realize that, in this day and age, once a secret is out, it's out forever. Once the next Bradley Manning leaks some secrets, they're pretty much public. All Assange is doing is putting them in one place. I'm not saying leaking secrets is good. Some secrets should stay that way. But go after the people leaking them.

  38. Good luck with this. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

    So... It would be unlawful for a foreign citizen, to publish information in a foreign country, using foreign resources. Basically a US crime, but not committed on US territory. Good luck with that.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Good luck with this. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      If he is ever in the jurisdiction of a country with whom we have an extradition treaty, then he'll be served up to the U.S. in handcuffs.

      The only reason he's being extradited from the U.K. to Sweden and not to the U.S. is that the U.S. Attorney General is still constructing an indictment against him.

      We may have to wait until he's out of a Swedish prison to get him, but I don't doubt we'll end up trying him for what he's done, with or without this law.

    2. Re:Good luck with this. by tombeard · · Score: 1

      I doubt they would end up trying him. Just like the gitmo captive that died last week, with legal indefinite detention and government sanctioned torture why go to the expense and potential embarrassment?

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    3. Re:Good luck with this. by tokul · · Score: 1

      So... It would be unlawful for a foreign citizen, to publish information in a foreign country, using foreign resources. Basically a US crime, but not committed on US territory. Good luck with that.

      US was lucky at least once. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

      And this does not include Gitmo.

    4. Re:Good luck with this. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Assange doesn't fit into the category of people who end up in Gitmo, who are still listed as "enemy combatants".

  39. US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Stripe7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That still does not address the issue that Assange is an Austrialian currently residing in England. Does that mean rendition teams from US will apply US laws to any foreign citizen? Then the reverse is true and rendition teams from other foreign countries can do the same to US citizen. Like prosecute Cheney or Bush for war crimes with rendition teams in the US.

    1. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The rest of the world will just bend over and take it like it always has.

      He's going down like a cheap hooker, you should start practicing too.

    2. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by zdepthcharge · · Score: 2

      I'm all for it. A world government based around the notion any law you pass MUST apply to EVERYONE in the world. It might result in victimless crimes being wiped out and death penalties for those that commit atriocious acts of war. Or just a bunch of laws that allow you to take out teh other countries leaders...

    3. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Peter+H.S. · · Score: 1

      Perhaps these laws are not directed only at wikileaks, but also against any US newspaper and publisher that uses wikileaks documents as the article suggest.

    4. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      They could.

      But if they tried to do that by force, they'd start a war.

      They're currently trying to do it by law, so it's merely a matter of whether the U.S. government will agree to the extradition.

      You can bet that Cheney and Bush won't be setting foot in those countries of their own volition, ever.

    5. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That still does not address the issue that Assange is an Austrialian currently residing in England. Does that mean rendition teams from US will apply US laws to any foreign citizen? Then the reverse is true and rendition teams from other foreign countries can do the same to US citizen. Like prosecute Cheney or Bush for war crimes with rendition teams in the US.

      Fool......... every american knows that their laws apply to the entire universe. You know, god is on their side and all.

    6. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Or just a bunch of laws that allow you to take out teh other countries leaders...

      I like the gist of it. Like passing a law in Nauru making illegal idiots be elected in US senate.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    7. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent!

    8. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It worked against somali pirates.

    9. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by tombeard · · Score: 1

      So, assault and fraud (of various degree) would be the only recognized crime?. How could we possibly run the world on such a moral system? We would have to dig up Lysander Spooner and make him king. He would, of course, decline the office.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    10. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Tom · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, No.

      Yes, the US routinely applies US laws to foreign citizens. I have first hand experience of that, as one of the defendants back in the DeCSS case.

      No, the same does of course not apply the other way around. The US does not consider itself a peer amongst peers, it thinks of itself as the greatest nation on earth, chosen by god himself, above all international law save the one they bring themselves, with guns and tanks.

      But it's good that they're doing it now. Julian has hinted towards this from the beginning, it will give his fight against extradition more strength.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    11. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Similarly to Tom's response, the answer is "Yes" and "No/maybe".

      Countries apply their laws to citizens of other countries all the time. If I hack into a server at the Pentagon from here in the UK for instance, perhaps looking for evidence of the existence of UFOs, there's a pretty good chance the US government will apply to my government to have me arrested and extradited to stand trial in the US.

      Similarly, if an American citizen in America hacks into a server run by/on behalf of the UK government, there's every chance that the UK government would apply for them to be arrested and extradited to stand trial here in the UK.

      The only question is whether, in either situation, the government having the request made of them will (attempt to) comply.

    12. Re:US law to apply to foreign citizens? by BatGnat · · Score: 1

      Fool......... every american knows that their laws apply to the entire universe. You know, god is on their side and all.

      Now,....Don't go bringing facts into this argument....

  40. What about Gov't Negligence? by eepok · · Score: 1

    "The bill would clarify US law by saying it is an act of espionage to publish the protected names of American intelligence sources who collaborate with the US military or intelligence community."

    Ya, ok... but if, say, the US Gov't was approached with the opportunity to redact any/all of the names that should be protected but refrained from doing so would they be complicit in the final action? Would they hold some blame?

  41. Re: Libby and Cheney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But what was he lying about exactly? Was he just obstructing because he didn't like the tone of the question? No way -- Libby wanted to prevent the release of information that suggested that SOMEONE had betrayed Plame's identity. Aiding and abetting, in my opinion.

  42. Didn't the US just publish a similar list recently by sirlark · · Score: 2

    Like a list of suspected russian spies on US soil. I realize that Russia doesn't have such a law in place, so it's a bit of a moot point, but it does throw perspective on the idea that this law is effectively attempting to outlaw the counter espionage acts of other sovereign nations. If my government catches a US spy, then they are committing espionage, and when they are tried for espionage their names enter public record, making the judge (?) or the master of court records (?) or just the entire government criminals... But that's because the US should be allowed to spy on everyone on as they see fit, cause they're special...

  43. Is this law itself cause for prosecution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given WikiLeaks is a whistleblower site exposing corruption, isn't any effort to undermine it inherently an act of corruption?

  44. The irony by Riverstx · · Score: 1

    We already have Shield Laws. But they protect Journalists, not prosecute them. Some people are really not meant to come up with names.

  45. Peter King is a moron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is simply a fund raising tactic. The US can't touch Assange and they shouldn't.

    The guy toppled more Mid East governments than the CIA has in their wettest dreams.

    1. Re:Peter King is a moron by MaDeR · · Score: 1

      If CIA (and USA) would want, it would topple half of dictatorships of this world without any problems. In some cases just stopping sponsoring them would be enough.

      --
      What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
  46. get it by buswolley · · Score: 1

    he isn't american.

    --

    A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    1. Re:get it by PPH · · Score: 1

      he isn't american.

      Makes no difference. We've got laws on the books that cover worldwide activities by citizens and non-citizens alike. All he (or many other poor fools) have to do is to set foot on US soil. Even if its handcuffed, with a bag over one's head, pushed off a CIA airplane.

      Want examples? Take a look at our tax code.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:get it by tombeard · · Score: 1

      And by what basis can we assert that our laws apply to anyone other then out citizens? I have heard the assertion, but not the basis.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    3. Re:get it by Evtim · · Score: 1

      Power.

  47. Lovin freedom..... when its in Egipt and China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lets teach freedom of speech and democracy to the opressed... Lets... :(

  48. So Dick goes to Jail? by rahvin112 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Lets make sure it's retroactive so Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney can go to jail for espionage as well! After all they did compromise the identity of a secret agent of the CIA.

    1. Re:So Dick goes to Jail? by UnCivil+Liberty · · Score: 1

      Lets make sure it's retroactive

      They can't... Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3

      --
      Distributed proteome folding @ WorldCommunityGrid.org
      Team Slashdot - Members:#1 Run Time:#1 Points:#1 Results:#1
  49. targets Julian Assange by Jessified · · Score: 1

    "New legislation in the US Congress targets WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange for espionage prosecution."

    How does any legislation target one person?

    "The penalty for being Julian Assange is 20-30 years in prison and a minimum $250,000 fine."

  50. NATO? by Thad+Zurich · · Score: 1

    I'm finding it hard to believe that Wikileaks hasn't posted anything that's NATO-classified. Even if Sweden isn't a NATO member, wouldn't that expose Assange to prosecution in the UK, which is a member, and also happens to be his present location?

    1. Re:NATO? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      I'm finding it hard to believe that Wikileaks hasn't posted anything that's NATO-classified.

      What is the probability the State Dept cables to contain NATO-classified information?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:NATO? by tombeard · · Score: 1

      I find it hard to believe that slashdot has not published anything that is tombeard classified.
      What is the possibility that redit reposts do not contain tombeard-classified information?

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
  51. Three Words by sconeu · · Score: 1

    Ex Post Facto

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  52. Never going to happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They can pass all the laws they want. International law says he can't be prosecuted for something that was not illegal at the time it was done. Something lawyers call Ex Post Facto.

  53. crime to accept identifiable Union donations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bills should be introduced in the USA, UK, Australia and lots more places saying things like

    It is a crime to hide things from the electorate. (This should not be mixed up with "Freedom of Information acts" that rarely work.)

    It is a crime to govern by misdirection of public attention.

    It is a crime to protect the powerful to the detriment of the weak or less powerful.

    It is a crime to take away civil rights, whatever the state of the nation

    It is a crime to introduce 'knee jerk' legislation.

    It is a crime to retrospectively criminalise something. It can only be criminalised from the introduction of the law

    It is a crime to give or accept identifiable corporate campaign donations

    That last one would be the one that would upset many politicians and large companies.

    Happy with,
    "It is a crime to give or accept identifiable corporate campaign donations"

    if you add;

    "It is a crime to give or accept identifiable Union campaign donations"

    1. Re:crime to accept identifiable Union donations by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      if you add;"It is a crime to give or accept identifiable Union campaign donations"

      No, Just as I can personally post identifiable donations to a political campaign and the politician can accept them if they want, I should have the right to personally give identifiable money to a trade union.

      It would be reasonable to stop corporations from doing so. This might happen, for example, when 'they' figure out that candidateX will be more "business friendly" (amenable to pressure) than candidateY. This is them interfering in union politics and is little different from them interfering in electoral politics.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  54. Head in the sand syndrome by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
    Wow, that's an excellent idea. Let's make sure that only foreigners can legally publish the names of American collaborators, it's the best way to protect the American public from learning any inconvenient facts. Of course, we'll have to put a great firewall around the country too, otherwise the precious snowflakes might just read disturbing national security secrets during their coffee breaks.

    +1, Ostrich Strategy.

    1. Re:Head in the sand syndrome by tombeard · · Score: 1

      We are working on that wall in the south. Give us time.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
  55. Re: Libby and Cheney by ravenshrike · · Score: 3, Informative

    He was 'lying' in that his account of a certain set of dates recalled from memory differed slightly from someone else's recall of a certain set of dates, also from memory. Moreover, the judge threw out the expert witness that Libby wanted to use who would point out that memory is quite fallible.

  56. Jurisdiction issues? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh I do hope they raise this in evidence at the UK Assange hearing ...

    Telling judges in one jurisdiction that you're going to usurp their powers from another jurisdiction is not what I'd call killer public relations. :)

  57. Is Wikileaks based in the USA? by carvalhao · · Score: 1

    If not, who gives a fuck what laws they pass?

  58. Depends on the law but yes it can by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    You don't get a free pass on a crime because you happen to be in another country. That is the whole point of agencies like Interpol and things like Extradition Treaties. You can't just skip to another nation and say "Ha, ha! Can't arrest me!" That is actually what is going on with Assanage right now. Sweden has chosen to criminally charge him, but he's in England. Sweden has requested he be extradited so he can be tried. So England is have an extradition hearing to decide if he will be or not. More or less they see if the request is legal per the treaty, and if there's any extenuating circumstances as to why it shouldn't happen.

    Now this also can apply to crimes that are committed form outside a country, but have an impact on citizens in the country. If you run a fraudulent business selling dangerous good to US citizens marketed as safe, you can get charged for that. Doesn't matter that you aren't in the US, your crime is happening there. They can charge you with it.

    Now again, it depends on the country you are in. Some countries don't have extradition treaties with other countries and thus you aren't going to get handed over. Also the nature of the treaties differ, so not all nations will hand over people for all things. For example the US won't extradite for some minor crimes.

    England and Australia both have extradition treaties with the US and the nations are very cordial. If he was charged with a felony in the US, and there was evidence to substantiate it, the nations would almost certainly extradite. Now once in the US, the court would try him like anyone else. A criminal court is not concerned with how a defendant got there or where they are from, they are concerned only with the matter set before them to decide.

    Now as to prosecuting Bush for war crimes, no probably not. For one, you really have no case. The idea that the Iraq war was somehow illegal is completely false. A bad idea and started on flimsy pretense, but not illegal. The fact aside that sovereign nations have a right to make war, the US was already at war with Iraq. There was no peace treaty after the first Gulf War and Iraq continually violated the no-fly zones by shooting at US jets. A de-facto state of war existed, even if no actual major conflict was being fought. Also the UN didn't pass any resolution against the war (and couldn't because the US has veto power, along with several other nations).

    That aside when dealing with national leaders, right or wrong, the rules are a little different. The US is a powerful and influential nations, not to mention one with a really big military. Trying to charge its leaders would be a non-starter, in particular because you'd have to ask the US to extradite them, which it wouldn't, or try to kidnap them, which would be an act of war.

    1. Re:Depends on the law but yes it can by Kakari · · Score: 1

      You don't get a free pass on a crime because you happen to be in another country. That is the whole point of agencies like Interpol and things like Extradition Treaties. You can't just skip to another nation and say "Ha, ha! Can't arrest me!" That is actually what is going on with Assanage right now. Sweden has chosen to criminally charge him, but he's in England.

      The rest of your post seems to clarify, but your first sentence only alludes to the fact that these things are enforceable when the crime is committed on US* soil. If you are from the US and go to Amsterdam, smoke some weed, and come back to the US, you haven't done anything illegal** (assuming you aren't a member of the military in which case you'd be subject to the UCMJ the whole time). There are some other exceptions in US law, notably that traveling to have sex with a child/engage in kiddie porn is illegal (leaving the US with the intent, not the actual act in a place where it may be legal).

      * : By US I mean the country in which the act is committed - and given the story, this applies.
      ** : Pedants who wish to educate me on the finer points of Netherlands drug laws need not respond.

  59. Dear elected US Representatives, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do not control the FUCKNG world!

    Stop acting and legislating like you do, or the citizenry will vote you ignorant ASS out of office!!!!!

    1. Re:Dear elected US Representatives, by BatGnat · · Score: 1

      You haven't seen the documentary program "Team America: World Police" then have you?

      America.....Fuck Yeah!

  60. Re:Libby and [Chaney] by tqk · · Score: 1

    We can't let the facts get in front of Bush/Cheney bashing.

    Elucidate, oh Genius/PolyMath/Insightful wizard, please!

    Meh.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  61. This does not affect Wikileaks by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    Even if they pass this law it cannot impact Wikileaks because it would be ex-post-facto. You can't make something illegal after the fact.

  62. Re: Libby and Cheney by Danse · · Score: 1

    He was 'lying' in that his account of a certain set of dates recalled from memory differed slightly from someone else's recall of a certain set of dates, also from memory. Moreover, the judge threw out the expert witness that Libby wanted to use who would point out that memory is quite fallible.

    Apparently the jury didn't see it as such a little slip-up.

    --
    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  63. please dont delete i want to post anonymously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lonnae O'Neal Parker of the Post
    and try an pretend they aint the oldest hdfo's in the bar and
    actually have enough money between the two of them to buy a drink instead of

    manipulating some dude into buying them one.."I've known about it for several weeks

    because she's been trying to decide what to do for a while," said journalist

    Danielle Belton. Belton knows Callahan socially, but that didn't stop her from

    acting like she was doing a piece of journalism regarding this story and was in on

    the deliberations. "We were all like, 'Come on!' She probably would not have done

    anything with it. She is not someone who wants that kind of media attention." Yeah,

    except for the fact that a simple Google search on Yesha Callahan reveals that she

    is a compulsively blogging/tweeting media whfore with little to nothing to actually

    say who tried out for the Real Housewives of D.C. Jersey, and, strangley Orange

    County, go figure.
    http://theloop21.com/news/yesha-callahan-gives-first-last-post-the-craigslist-

    congressman
    At Danielle Belton's suggestion amidst a group of "Waiting to Exhale, How Stella

    Got Her Groove Back" burnouts and crusty drama queens, Callahan reached out to

    Maureen O'Connor at the gossip Web site Gawker, which guaranteed her anonymity for

    a period of time long enough for Callahan to find a buyer for her "coming out"

    piece. After the story appeared and the New York representative resigned, Belton

    interviewed Callahan anonymously about what happened for the Web site

    TheLoop21.com. So some dumb bitch from theloop21.com interviewed her drinking

    buddy? Cool, I guess people just start blogs and interview their houseplants now

    too and then act like its journalism.

    http://theloop21.com/news/yesha-callahan-gives-first-last-post-the-craigslist-

    congressman

    Callahan, 34, said she wrestled for weeks about what to do with the e-mails she

    swapped on Craigslist with Lee last month. He'd told her he was a 39-year-old

    divorced lobbyist with a son; she traced his e-mail address to his Facebook page,

    then discovered he was, in fact, a married, 46-year-old politician. Who does that?

    she wondered. (Lots of people bidtch, see AshleyMadison, nature, the history of the

    ffdhucking world...then get over yourself and why don't you and Tony Dungy and his

    deceased white hatred black power 9/11 afficionado son get off your high horses

    stat.

    A faculty specialist for the University of Maryland (actually Yesh, you work at

    UMUC, which is the red headed government mandated step child to the august U. of

    Maryland) and single mother of a preteen son, Callahan hashed over the e-mails with

    her social circle of young professionals, if bys "young professionals" you mean

    other aging stank ho's with nothing better to do than tell everyone via their lame

    blogs about how they manage to be black and stuff, a real Grand Counsel you called

    there, Yesha. Lee's deception was out of bounds, her friends agreed, mostly because

    he was white, and Callahan began to see this as a cautionary tale.

    The picture that Chris Lee sent Yesha Callahan. (Gawker) Political scandals in

    photos

    "I assumed that other people have probably come across him as well, and he had lied

    to them," she said. "I felt annoyance at just the audacity of people thinking that

    they're not going to get found out when they are lying when triflin' horses like

    myself are lying in wait to blackmail them, I mean really."

    From Flyblackchick.com Yesha Callahans blog post on the matter wherein she lies

    about how the Washington Post came to know her (she contacted them) and tries to

    act like she didn't knowingly, willingly break her own "anonymity" in this regard:

    "Since all anonymity is lost (note: Here G.E.D. possessing Yesha tries to be

    clever and not outright admit that she outed herse

  64. Re:Didn't the US just publish a similar list recen by tombeard · · Score: 1

    My kingdom for a mod (up) point!

    --
    The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
  65. Yet another reason not to visit the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US government seems so hypocritical.

    The US Governement (all sides) say want political freedom and democracy elsewhere in the world, but they legislate to prevent openness and accountability when things are not in their favour...

  66. Outside of Jurisdiction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assange is not only not a US citizen, he's not likely to ever go anywhere near the US for the remainder of his lifetime. The US has absolutely no legal jurisdiction over him in any way, shape, or form.

    The only methods they could, (and we should not doubt that they will use them), are extralegal. In fact, any one in the world who has pissed off the US can now, thanks to Assange, argue against extradiction from anywhere to anywhere on the grounds that it might lead to US extraordinary rendition.

    Second, there should be a legal test everytime legislation so overreaching is produced. If it is found to be against the constitution, the legislator who put forward the bill should be shot.

    That would certainly make legislators think twice before trying to pass specious, social destruction legislation.

  67. Prosecute then US military abroad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Therefore if they apply the law to the rest of the world we should start prosecutting US troops that commit war crimes abroad.

  68. Re: Libby and Cheney by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    A jury is a group of 12 people of average ignorance. - Herbert Spencer.

    A jury consists of 12 people chosen to decide who has the best lawyer. - Robert Frost.

    When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty. - Norm Crosby.

    Almost arbitrarily the jury can decide whether you genuinely forgot something, you're lying about forgetting something, or the fact you can't recall is sufficient. Never underestimate the level of "stupid" a group of lay men can bring to a discussion between educated people.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  69. US Gov gone rough... by 3seas · · Score: 2

    I am an American, but I do not see the US government being any longer a genuine American government consistent with its founding documents. But only drifting further and further away, becoming a rouge government. And now its becoming quite obvious the US government is disconnected from the people it is supposed to represent, but instead leads the people with deception.

    What began in north Africa is spreading and it will come around to the US too.

    The math is to simple. there will be 7 billion people on this planet this year and its only some fraction of 1% of the population that is causing all the trouble and waring wasteful expense of the mind games of these few rather than correcting real world problems for the rest of us, RE: http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/TLSF/theme_a/mod02/www.worldgame.org/wwwproject/index.shtml which would be much more effective at reducing the motives of others to attack us, as well.
    This is the best indicator of a government that can be rightfully diagnosed as being psychologically unfit to command anyone.

    Making up the rules as they go along does not work in this country as its supposed to be a democracy but where is our opportunity to vote on this?
    Sept 10, 2001, Rumsfield publicly stated that they cannot account for 2.3 trillion dollars of Pentagon spending.... Thats about $8,000 per man, woman and child in the US..... Its also taxation without representation... striking at the very heart of the birth of the US.... the Boston Tea Party... And they continue to spend massive amounts for defense.... 47% of the total world defense spending. Add in the Allies spending and we are over 60% of world spending where teh remaining 40% is divided amount many many poor countries. We don't need to spend anywhere near that much on defense... unless we are going to be attacked by Aliens... Yeah right....

    What began in north Africa is spreading and it will come around to the US too, for teh US government continues to show evidence of their failure to understand the founding documents of this country and even teh Declaration of Independence states its not only our right but duty to put of such corrupt government and make the corrections ourselves.
     

  70. I see opportunities for criminals here by dmcq · · Score: 1

    I don't see anything about what these people in the intelligence services are engaged in. For instance if they rob, kill or torture people will publishing anything about that be lawful? Does it mean that the intelligence services can employ lowlife to do their work and if they do a few crimes on their way they get immunity from investigation? Looks like a bunch of opportunities to me. And why anyway are intelligence services so special compared to anybody else? If you know someone is going to be endangered by your actions shouldn't you tell them in advance anyway so they can prepare?

    --
    thou discernest my thoughts from afar
  71. Re: Libby and Cheney by lpq · · Score: 1

    They didn't get him for doing anything actually 'wrong', just for not having 100% recall? _I_ don't have that type of recall I barely remember what I did last week, let alone daily events that happened months ago.

  72. Publish? by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    Hasn't this guy read the constitution and amendments? You know the the one he took an oath to uphold?

    It would be one thing if he were proposing an amendment but contradicting the constitution? We as American citizens need a way to impeach government officials ourselves.

  73. Dear Congressman by KeensMustard · · Score: 1
    Dear Congressman,

    Just so you know, if US law applies to Australians, then equally, Australian laws apply to Americans - to you. So here's what will happen if you continue with this farce.

    We'll pass a law in our Parliament, say, making it illegal to be a dickhead. Then we'll arrest you. You can cool your heels in Long Bay - or maybe enjoy the comforts of one of our famous detention centres. Fair exchange?

  74. As others said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wikileaks didn't leak the information, they published it. The leak came from Manning.

  75. McKinnon ring a bell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    McKinnon ring a bell? The crimes he's charged with to extradite were brought in AFTER he pootled around in DoD networks.

    Ex post facto doesn't matter.

    Sometimes.

  76. exposer by rodneylee · · Score: 1

    Exposing Government Corruption and Cover ups is the Duty of every American Citizen. -- ''During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'' My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. ~Thomas Jefferson

  77. Lets add Clinton and Gore to the list... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So that goes for Clinton and Gore when they gave sensitive military secrets to the Chi-Coms??? Actually, Berger should've been prosecuted for his crimes as well. If found guilty, Berger would long been worm food.

    Irony is awesome.

    : )

  78. Secrets by Wowsers · · Score: 1
    So if divulging US supposed secrets is a crime, what is it when the US give away another so called friendly country's secrets? US can't have it both ways, US influence in the world is waining, as the whole Middle East democracy moves have shown, and people dumping the ever worthless US Dollar. US to give British nuclear secrets to Russia

    Information about every Trident missile the US supplies to Britain will be given to Russia as part of an arms control deal signed by President Barack Obama next week. Defence analysts claim the agreement risks undermining Britains policy of refusing to confirm the exact size of its nuclear arsenal.

    The fact that the Americans used British nuclear secrets as a bargaining chip also sheds new light on the so-called special relationship, which is shown often to be a one-sided affair by US diplomatic communications obtained by the WikiLeaks website.

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
  79. Loopholes by Quila · · Score: 1

    1. There are many loopholes in the prohibition on ex post facto. They can still screw up your life for something you did long ago.

    2. An amendment to the Constitution can change anything about the Constitution.

  80. Re:Misleading... is silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "no law..abridging freedom of speech"

    So, I assume it is ok to publish child pornography ? Snuff Films ? detailed blueprints for nuclear devices ?

    no law doesn't mean "no law" it means something like "minimal laws consistent with current notions of morality and ethics"
    maybe you stopped fixating on the text, and thought a while, you would understand that

  81. Re:Libby and [Chaney] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see that you corrected the title. Are you talking about Lon Chaney or can you really not spell "Cheney"?

  82. Constitutionally speaking you are correct by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Constitutionally speaking, and with no intent to show disrespect for all of our military soldiers who have dodged bullets and more since WWII, we haven't been at war since V-J Day in 1945.

    OK, I take that back, we were at war for a short period of time during and shortly after the actual attack of 9/11 and arguably for brief periods of time during and after other, much less significant, actual attacks and insurrections on the United States. I don't think it's constitutional to consider the wars that resulted from 9/11 as extending much past September 2001 as Congress had ample opportunity to pass a formal declaration of war and chose not to do so, the War-Powers Act and related laws notwithstanding.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  83. Burn the books! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this law passes, we'll have to burn the history books that list the names of nazis since many later worked for USA (as Nazi Hunters, ironically). This would have unforseen consequences and could result in the destruction of history (and school).

  84. nice name by formfeed · · Score: 1
    I would vote for it.
    I just like the names.

    Patriot act?
    SHIELD?

    What's next?
    Securing Homeland's Information Technology?
    Hicks inbreeding clueless klan supporters?

  85. well, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Julian Assange and his associates who have operated and supported WikiLeaks not only damaged U.S. national security with their releases of classified documents, but also placed at risk countless lives, including those of our nation’s intelligence sources around the world,"

    I believe you caused this yourself, America - by doing what you do best - Keeping secrets, and doing dirty business.