MacBook Pro Specs Leaked, iPad Event March 2

Stoobalou updates us on the various Apple rumors, saying, "Snaps of Apple's imminent update to the MacBook Pro range have been leaked, confirming most of the rumors doing the rounds." Light Peak looks like it will be called Thunderbolt. The 13" will feature 2.3ghz Dual Core i5s and 4 gigs of RAM. In addition to the MacBook Pro rumors, the iPad update rumors have been confirmed, with invitations going out to the formal announcement on March 2.

Comments

hmm

[rainmouse]

It seems everything Apple is working on is leaked and it really is becomming a tiresome marketting ploy, perhaps moreso because it seems to work.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

But...but...I need to know about everything Apple!!!

Oooooh. I just heard that Steve Jobs had a bowel movement! zOMG!!!!!1111eleventyone

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet it's some marketing ploy from Apple also when we have photos of sick Steve Jobs in front of a cancer treatment facility.

It's also a marketing ploy when all the news site can't shut up about a smaller 6 inch iPad, and a "cloud iPhone that's half the size of iPhone" knowing full well it's bullshit.

And it's marketing ploy when random outlets report that iPad 2 will be late for months because of production issues.

Or maybe it's just that everyone can't stop reading about Apple, and therefore there's huge pressure for a leak to occur.

The reason leaks don't occur in Oracle or Computer Associates is, no one gives a damn. And leaks do occur at Microsoft and Adobe too, but again, no one gives a damn.

Re:hmm

[dunezone]

You know what was an awesome leak? The Doom 3 alpha or the Half-Life 2 source release, two products we were not suppose to have hands on time with.

This is a freaking list of specs of a laptop that doesn't look that powerful and will cost an arm and a leg. Now the iPad update will probably have some feature that should have been released with the first generation but for whatever reason *cough* BUT TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY IT AGAIN *cough* was not included.

Everything is a leak today no matter how silly the information being leaked is.

Re:hmm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

But...but...I need to know about everything Apple!!!

Oooooh. I just heard that Steve Jobs had a bowel movement! zOMG!!!!!1111eleventyone

I'm so sick of the Apple news posted around here! So I'm gonna keep bitching about it over and over again on every Apple thread so this ad supported site knows just how annoyed I am! When Apple stories often reach 200+ comments, they'll surely back down one day!

Re:hmm

[wandazulu]

What's interesting is that it seems Apple's product announcements are the only remaining tech that gets everyone talking, whether pro or against, people do talk about it. Dell might have released half a dozen new systems last week, but who'd know? I was in a tmobile store the other day and saw a number of Android-based handsets that I hadn't heard of. And even though I consider myself a geek, I have very little idea what the Xoom is, other than a Motorola tablet, and more to the point, why should I care?

I'm not saying that we should care about Apple product announcements, but Apple seems to be the only ones who can generate any significant buzz about whatever it is they're announcing.

Re:hmm

[commodore6502]

>>>leaks seem to work.

The slashvertisements sure work.

(hugs Apple G5) No I'm not upgrading yet! It still works! (pause) What do you mean the latest iTunes and safari require an Intel Mac? Oh crap.

Re:hmm

[Dzimas]

Apple's marketing strategy is brilliant. Unlike other companies, they don't release products with incomprehensible names like the KDH-4001. They don't have to address a myriad of OS compatibility issues (for example, A4-based devices are eligible for iOS updates, the older ones aren't). They have streamlined product lines -- one iPad, one iPod Touch, one Apple TV. By reducing choice, they reduce buyer confusion and uncertainty. A side-effect of this zen marketing approach is that it's easy for the press to write about their products. When a new iPad is introduced, we know ahead of time what to expect, with the addition of a few easy-to-explain doodads (camera! Another camera! Faster! Thinner!). That makes for good copy and makes technophobic users feel somewhat comfortable.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

We're annoying you with Apple news?

Glad to oblige.

Perhaps one day you will learn to filter out Apple news.

Re:hmm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

What's interesting is that it seems Apple's product announcements are the only remaining tech that gets everyone talking, whether pro or against, people do talk about it. Dell might have released half a dozen new systems last week, but who'd know? I was in a tmobile store the other day and saw a number of Android-based handsets that I hadn't heard of. And even though I consider myself a geek, I have very little idea what the Xoom is, other than a Motorola tablet, and more to the point, why should I care?

I'm not saying that we should care about Apple product announcements, but Apple seems to be the only ones who can generate any significant buzz about whatever it is they're announcing.

Slashdot, as well as many other ad-supported tech news sites, make money from fanboyism. The people who truely dislike Apple news and products aren't doing themselves any favors by bitchbitchbitching.

Re:hmm

[mini me]

Now the iPad update will probably have some feature that should have been released with the first generation but for whatever reason *cough* BUT TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY IT AGAIN *cough* was not included.

There is only so much time in the day to bring a product to market. I get what you are saying, but I fully understand why lots of companies, Apple included, leave out features that seem like they should be there from day one. If they had delayed the iPad 1 until every last obvious feature was complete, we would just be hearing about it for the first time come March.

Re:hmm

[JustinOpinion]

I'm not saying that we should care about Apple product announcements, but Apple seems to be the only ones who can generate any significant buzz about whatever it is they're announcing.

The hype can get out of hand, but I think Apple more or less earns this exposure. The reason is Apple is one of the only companies that really puts effort into design.

Now, I say this despite not being much of a consumer of Apple products. My desktops (work and home) run Linux, though my laptop is a (4-year-old) Macbook Pro. But even though I have many reasons I don't like Apple products (lockin, etc.), I recognize the serious effort and skill they put into designing not just a product, but a successful user experience.

One of the reasons journalists and bloggers and design professionals and design enthusiasts all watch Apple closely is that they are one of the only companies that actually carries a design through to its full conclusion. Other manufacturers can, and do, come up with innovative ideas and the beginnings of a good design, but they all ultimately compromise on that design (usually for money). Think of something as simple as putting all those "Optimized for Windows" and "Intel inside" stickers on a laptop: I suspect those were not there in the original artist renderings; they are a corruption of the design. The crapware that is loaded is another corruption. Trying to get the price down to competitive levels requires all kinds of compromises in terms of build details, quality, etc. Edges don't meet quite flush because of some engineering or price constraint (not because it makes the device more pleasing to the user). UI elements are not very responsive because it would have taken too long to optimize that code. They don't worry about there being a subtle (but satisfying) 'click' when plugging-in a cable. And so on. (Note that I'm using "design" as shorthand for "design of the user experience"... obviously these companies have successfully engineered/designed products for a certain constraint-set.)

Apple makes its fair share of gaffes, and it's not obvious that all of their design choices are worth the premium costs. (Again, I mostly don't buy their stuff.) But as far as test cases to ponder, their products are the best around. One can really evaluate the pros and cons of a touch interface now that Apple put serious effort into designing a UI that is touch-centric (previously most touch interfaces were either crappy overlays on top of mousing UI (e.g. Windows tablets) or just terrible to begin win (e.g. a kiosk touch-UI)...).

So, in short, by having a focused vision and seeing it through to the end, they create products that are not ugly mixtures of compromises (where when things don't work you're left wondering if it's because it was a bad idea or poorly executed); their products are consistent and cohesive (so that you can evaluate a given design choice, and copy/improve/ignore it as needed in designing other products). Even if you don't like (and don't buy) their stuff, it's worth watching what they produce.

Re:hmm

[Sechr Nibw]

That "whooshing" sound over your head is the /sarcasm tag that was implied in the GP.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason leaks don't occur in Oracle or Computer Associates is, no one gives a damn. And leaks do occur at Microsoft and Adobe too, but again, no one gives a damn.

Only Mozilla leaks - and then only memory.

Re:hmm

[Rectal Prolapse]

I have a theory that this is why the Japanese automakers were so successful in North America too.

Re:hmm

[cyfer2000]

Xoom?

Re:hmm

[michelcolman]

Oooooh. I just heard that Steve Jobs had a bowel movement! zOMG!!!!!1111eleventyone

That's GREAT news! I'm buying Apple stock right now.

Re:hmm

[ukyoCE]

Absolutely right.

One of the reasons is probably their comparatively sparse product lineup. I was looking at Sony Vaio laptops, recently, and they have a 10", 11", 12"... everything up to 17" laptops. Apple has 3, 13", 15", and 17". There are a hundred android handsets with every imaginable combination of hardware, but there only 2 iphones, the gsm and cdma ones. When apple changes their product lineup people know what product they're talking about even if they don't own one. It's not "the 12" version of the SXA laptop model", its just "the macbook".

They also (generally) maintain their price point across product revisions, so there's extra interest in when a new launch is going to arrive. Waiting a month might mean significant hardware improvements for the same cost. The Macbook Pro is still $1800, but now you get an extra 2gb of ram, an SSD, a newer CPU, new battery tech, and whatever else they toss in the new model. Or maybe it's a shrug of an upgrade, just a minor cpu update, and you'd rather go ahead and get one now than wait 3 months?

With so few product models and infrequent changes, it makes people more interested than they would otherwise be. Any tech company could probably do this. But they have to be willing to put in the legwork (ie: NDAs, lawyers, and paced product updates) to make it happen.

It's also worth noting how much more impact Apple's launches have when they aren't significantly leaked. That is Apple's goal (or at least Steve Jobs'), so I doubt they regularly leak details on purpose. Remember the bomb Apple dropped on Microsoft when they released updated iPods along with a price drop shortly before the Zune's launch? By keeping it secret up until launch they left Microsoft's head spinning. MS was caught competing with last year's model and prices, rushing to play catchup.

Re:hmm

[dch24]

If this refresh of the Macbook Pro does not include a quad-core processor as an option, I won't buy it.

- Looking for a laptop

Re:hmm

[NekSnappa]

As unfortunate as it may be. The reason I finally put my G4 luxo lamp iMac out to pasture was the requirements for the iPad.

Re:hmm

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The slashvertisements sure work.

Yeah, Apple'll make big bucks when the iPad 2 without the retina display goes on sale.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Design?

You mean looks. Some of the egonomics and controls on Apple products are down right awlful and some of the UI aspects would make Edward Tufte cringe.

And other firms puts a lot, and I mean a lot into design, for functionality (like a removable battery compartment). Not looks, and that's where Apple excels.

Re:hmm

[Sepultura]

Apple makes its fair share of gaffes, and it's not obvious that all of their design choices are worth the premium costs.

While I agree with much of what you say I have to ask: What "premium costs"?

Why are we still hearing this even though it's been shown for YEARS now to be a fallacy - ie. other manufacturers aren't significantly less expensive when comparing similarly spec'd hardware, and often have horrid designs to boot?

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

none. there isn't even a slight chance.

quit being a dumbass

Re:hmm

[Nimey]

Isn't it odd how Japanese cars have just a few trim levels and no stand-alone options besides what you can get installed at the dealership? That /is/ very much like how Apple does things.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the "should have" bit with features? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Were you coddled as a child?

Re:hmm

[The End Of Days]

Why is it that you have to consider people idiots for not agreeing with your opinions? How is being a specwhore objectively smarter than liking clean design and a good experience?

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's so that he's got a "reasonable" excuse to shout "Ha! Apple are shit!" and feel all smug and justified.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't all mobile i7's quad core? They make an i7 right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, people are under the impression that increased cost means better performance. You can get a better equipped laptop for 500-1000 cheaper than Apple provides.

No, people are under the impression that increased cost means a better laptop, this doesn't necessarily mean better performance, and for the most part, they are right. It means a better sturdier case. It good performance but still 5 times the battery life of your $500 craptop. It means a trackpad that actually works. It means a keyboard you can type on comfortably for hours at a time. It means much quieter cooling than your $500 craptop. It means being thinner and more portable. It means looking good (yes, many people actually consider that valuable).

For the record – apple's laptops are around the $1000 mark, not the $2000 mark you seem to think they're at.

Re:hmm

[Draek]

Not really. Remember the launch of Windows 7? tech event of the decade as far as I'm concerned, and those of the X360 or even the Kinect weren't so insignificant either.

The reason Apple launches are news is the same reason Microsoft or Google product launches are news: they're an insanely big corporation with more devoted followers than most companies have plain old customers.

Now, you could argue that other large corporations like IBM don't get that kind of media frenzy, but I'd say it's mostly due to their customer base: CEOs don't frequent Slashdot, and they certainly don't write articles for newspapers. It's easier to hype something up when you're hyped about it yourself, after all.

Re:hmm

[pandrijeczko]

How is being a specwhore objectively smarter than liking clean design and a good experience?

1. As long as a tool does the job that's required of it, why does it matter what colour it is?

2. A confident individual makes choices for their own benefit rather than to seek the approval or admiration of others.

3. As a techwhore, I know enough about Apple's products to realise they're not worth the money being asked for them, unless it was important to me that an electronic gadget needed to match the outfit I was wearing on that particular day. But I also know nothing about, say, cars, so if I was buying a car then I'd read up on them and go to a car expert friend for advice - therefore, someone buying an Apple gadget clearly has too much money and/or no friends to get advice from.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes total sense, if you're still living in 1995 and bitter about not being able to build your own clone.

In today's world, the iPad is somehow the cheapest game in town, the iPhone is competitively priced, and the computers are flying off the shelves because by now, everybody knows somebody who won't stop going on about how much easier his life got since he bought one. (I realize that the latter statement is one completely alien to the crowd here, as no /. would deign to waste his time on mere mortals. ;-)

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"Some of the egonomics and controls on Apple products are down right awlful and some of the UI aspects would make Edward Tufte cringe."

Go for it, list them instead of making wild generalisations. I'm willing to bet that the "egonomics" are likely to be lies, and the cringeworthy UI aspects are entirely subjective.

Re:hmm

[Smauler]

Really? I mean really?

Seriously, Apple products are more expensive. Often significantly. Sure, you can show how some macbook is nearly as quick as a dell and doesn't cost much more, but generally the gap is much wider.

The horrid design thing is another issue... the point with paying the premium for the mac is that you're not dealing with that horrid design. God forbid you went for a cheap-ass phone that couldn't make calls when you hold it wrong.

Re:hmm

[Belial6]

You are describing a mythical Apple that doesn't exist. I had never noticed "there being a subtle (but satisfying) 'click' when plugging-in a cable". So, I inspected the Mac Mini sitting on my desk. Nope. No click when I plug in the cables. Not even a little bit. The edges where the parts meet up also have gaps. They didn't even bother to put the power button on the front of the machine. All in all, it is a moderately attractive box. Nothing special, but moderately attractive, and a usability disaster.

Just like all companies Apple makes compromises. They are just good at convincing people that the compromises they make are features.

Re:hmm

[PatHMV]

I can get a nominally better-equipped laptop for cheaper, but it doesn't actually perform better. I've never found a Windows-based laptop yet that doesn't take at LEAST 30 seconds to wake up from sleep or hibernation, and it's usually a minute or more (especially after a system gets gunked up with all the usual crappy drivers at auto start programs). My MacBook Pro wakes up in the time it takes me to type my password. As soon as the screen appears (which is immediately after typing my password), it's ready to use. This fact alone has saved me hours of annoyance in the past year I've had it.

Also on Windows machines, I've had plenty of problems with little glitches here and there, unexplained slowdowns, screen freezes, you name it. With the Mac, those problems have been drastically reduced. Yeah, the Windows machine specs out nicer, but that doesn't mean much outside of test-bed environments, looking at performance from a clean install on a pristine new computer.

Re:hmm

[nOw2]

Leaked on the eve of release, after the products have been sent out to thousands of resellers who /might/ just open the boxes and post pictures on the internet?

Re:hmm

[vlm]

I was in a tmobile store the other day and saw a number of Android-based handsets .... Apple seems to be the only ones who can generate any significant buzz about whatever it is they're announcing.

Other products sit on the shelves, people actually buy apple products. Thats why they're important. Quantity has a quality all its own.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Because each one of us a human, and colour and various other aesthetic properties matters to nearly all humans. It might be fashionable in some parts of geek culture to outwardly reject such things but I suspect those who do are doing so against their nature.

2. A confident indivual doesn't care what choices in computing devices others make. Not even enough to compose a post deriding those choices.

3. "Worth the money" is entirely subjective. I won't argue that I have too much money, but most all of my friends prefer some Apple product over its competitors. Either the phone or the music player or one of the laptops. We all do this not for the reasons you believe, but with our eyes wide open to know exactly what it is we are buying, from the processor to memory to storage to colour. It isn't that we want or need to spend money to impress anyone. Quite the contrary: if there were something better we would simply buy it.

But regardless, your concern over how we spend our money falls on deaf ears. We didn't ask you before we made it and we certainly won't start now.

Re:hmm

[vlm]

Isn't it odd how Japanese cars have just a few trim levels and no stand-alone options besides what you can get installed at the dealership? That /is/ very much like how Apple does things.

The "american car maker" way to sell electronics would be to sell the box for $100 and then mark up all the accessories, so the video cable and the gold plated cat seven ethernet cable each cost $75. Also they'd refuse to discuss prices and only talk how-much-a-month. And instead of spraying rustproofing they'd offer anti-virus installation. Actually that sounds very much like my last trip to Best Buy. Anyone know a good "Japanese style" place to buy electronics in the USA, other than apple?

Re:hmm

[adisakp]

“Make the impossible possible, the possible easy, and the easy elegant.”

Feldenkrais was talking about physical movement but Apple applies it to their UI, products, and marketing.

Re:hmm

[vlm]

Yeah, the Windows machine specs out nicer, but that doesn't mean much outside of test-bed environments, looking at performance from a clean install on a pristine new computer.

You cannot buy a pristine new windows laptop at this time. Only offered by Apple. Everything else is stuffed with bloatware by the manufacturer.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe in Apple speak, leaked means 'released'

Re:hmm

[Matey-O]

Who you kiddin? Anybody making that kinda comment wasn't going to buy Apple anyway and you know it.

Re:hmm

[Duradin]

So as long as the screwdriver drives screws that fact the it gives you blisters in only a few minutes of use doesn't matter?

Re:hmm

[mister_dave]

Trying to get the price down to competitive levels requires all kinds of compromises in terms of build details, quality, etc. Edges don't meet quite flush

On the whole, I think you make an excellent argument, but with my 2006 MacBook, I have to say I've been disappointed with the build quality since day one. "If this was made by Sony the battery would be flush with the body", I thought to myself. "If Apple cared about quality, the top case wouldn't be cracked."

That said, I'll be in the market for a MacBook Pro come May. :-)

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

"Specwhore" is a stupid way of referring to a "responsible purchase". The only reason Apple gets away with those prices is because idiots keep paying that price for them.These idiots are the ones sold on Apple as some kind of elite club or status symbol. The rest of the people that buy them have money to burn. Why defend Apple's ridiculous prices as "a better user experience" when its really "I just have money to burn". Be honest. Believe me, I would like to have an Apple Macbook as I do like the OS, but they are too expensive to be justifiable. You can get the same user experience and clean design out of an HP with an aluminum chassis with Ubuntu installed.

Re:hmm

[gstoddart]

Now the iPad update will probably have some feature that should have been released with the first generation but for whatever reason *cough* BUT TO MAKE PEOPLE BUY IT AGAIN *cough* was not included.

Ever read the "Mythical Man Month"? Nine women can't have a baby in a month, and you can't put every possible feature into a new product.

If every product waited to release until they could include all technologies it would ever have, well, we'd never actually see products due to all of the new stuff that gets built.

Like them or not, Apple releases a product that people are free to buy or not. And then, quite predictably, the ones that sell get near-annual refreshes to add features to them -- smaller, better, faster, more storage, touch screen. I've lost count of how many generations of each of the kinds of iPods there are.

And, really, Microsoft has been bragging about coming out with an iPad killer since about two weeks before the product launched. To the best of my knowledge, that doesn't exist yet.

At least Apple actually released something.

Re:hmm

[pandrijeczko]

Not at all. But the fact it gave you blisters would count as a black mark against functionality, and just because it was blue in colour would be no guarantee that it didn't give you blisters.

Re:hmm

[JustinOpinion]

I had never noticed "there being a subtle (but satisfying) 'click' when plugging-in a cable".

I was referring to the story about how for the original iPod launch, Steve Jobs was aghast that the prototypes didn't have a satisfying 'click' when you plug-in the headphones. So he forced the engineers to spend all night putting in better jacks into the prototypes. (See here, or here, or here.)

Just like all companies Apple makes compromises.

Absolutely. They make mistakes and compromises, as I was careful to point out in my previous post. But the perceived quality of their products is more than just "convincing" people--they put much more careful thought into their designs and design tradeoffs. Are their products perfect? Far from it. But their designs are far better in consistency and execution, than all of their competition. (If you want to argue that 'being best' is too low a bar, and that products are in general not sufficiently carefully designed, I largely agree...)

Re:hmm

[guruevi]

If you want a decent computer that you don't have to assemble yourself, you pretty much only have Apple left these days - they're about the same price as counterpart Dell's a little more expensive than the others but less bulky (Toshiba's power supplies are about as large as the laptop for example) and you won't gore yourself when attempting to replace user-serviceable parts (HP, Gateway). I only buy Apple at work even if it's for a Windows computer because of the cheap 3 year on-site service (compared to Dell or HP) and the generally good quality of products. I made the mistake once buying HP for cheap and I had to buy my own video cards because they didn't come with one (why'd you sell a desktop without even an on-board video card is beyond me).

Re:hmm

[jedrek]

Apple also tends to keep it's mouth shut until the day their product is ready to ship (they released the iPhone before it was available because of leaks) but it's always been that way: the day they release something is the day you can go into an Apple Store in the afternoon and pick it up.

Re:hmm

[Samalie]

Actually, the comment by parent (somewhat) stands.

Yes, Apple will cost more than a similarly equipped PC.

On the ultra-low end...well, Apple doesn't have an "Ultra-low end" - so you can get a $400 PC vs a $1000 MacBook, and you scream "Look! CHEAPER!" - but the included parts in the PC are all, well, cheaper too. The plastic is cheaper, the screen is cheaper, just about everything is cheaper. THe PC will be loaded with bloatware and a ton of Intel Inside and other such design sticker bullshit. The body will be plastic, not Aluminum. The list goes on and on.

On the ultra-high end...without going to an OEM type build, I ran a fully equipped MBP vs everyone else's web stores when last year's MBP refresh hit. Apple came out $250 more than a similarly equipped Dell, and actually $23 LESS than a similarly equipped HP. (Granted, these are webstore prices and not Amazon/Newegg/etc which I know are better...but doing a direct-from-manufacturer compare here). Add in the fact that there is percisely NO bloatware on an Apple, no stickers, no other cost-cutting-for-PC-maker bullshit, and well...the Apple isn't that bloated price-wise. Throw in an Apple student discount (which is SO ungodly easy to get it may as well be available to everyone) and well...the build quality of the Apple makes up for the 10% or less increased cost.

Sure...you will ALWAYS be able to buy a cheapass PC, and said Cheapass PC will always be cheaper than the lowest of Apple's offerings. But for some of us quality is as important as the specifications, and no $400 Craptop will ever compare to the quality behind an Apple build. Period.

Re:hmm

[BlueStraggler]

3. As a techwhore, I know enough about Apple's products to realise they're not worth the money being asked for them, unless it was important to me that an electronic gadget needed to match the outfit I was wearing on that particular day.

You're obviously trolling, but seriously, where does this idiotic meme come from? Macbooks are white or unpainted. Meanwhile, over at Sony, the Vaio Fall Collection (this is no joke) are available in black, gold, glossy carbon, bordeaux red, sangria red, striped, wavy black, wavy white, arabesque black, arabesque gold, crocodile black, and crocodile pink. FUCKING. CROCODILE. PINK. So you're clearly an asshat who doesn't know the first thing about accessorizing your computer to your wardrobe, since you should obviously be running Win7 if you have to match your PC to your boots. And by the way, you'll pay as much or more for a Vaio as you will for a Macbook.

Re:hmm

[milkmage]

are you talking about blog marketing because "rumor/new" + "apple" + "anything" = page hits?

doesn't make sense for Apple to leak because it will discourage people from buying the current model and emptying the channel while they prep for new SKU's

Re:hmm

[BitZtream]

Oh, and if the Apple branding on your devices isn't important, then how about scratching off the little Apple logos on each one then?

Seriously?

Why don't you modify your bios logo? Why don't you change all the kernel text to remove Linux from it so is unrecognized able? Did you remove the manufacture logo and identifying marks from your car?

You don't 'scratch off the little Apple logos' because theres no reason too, and the idea that you would bother doing such a thing shows that you're really the one concerned with logos.

Your sig gives a clear warning that your posts are from an irrational Apple hater. I realize you probably think you're being witty and showing us how smart you are, but it doesn't. It just shows your more concerned with raging against the machine than doing anything practical. Basically it lets us know your opinion doesn't really matter unless you're trying to compare your differing levels of douchebaggery.

Re:hmm

[jjohnson]

You can get the same user experience and clean design out of an HP with an aluminum chassis with Ubuntu installed.

Bwahahahah! Okay, now I know you're a troll. The user experience of OS X vs. Ubuntu is like comparing a professional massage to a kick in the nuts. The aluminum case on the MacBook is just icing on an already delicious cake.

And yes, I've used a variety of linuxes (and Windows) boxes for my main workday computers. As someone who's actually worked hard with all three, my MacBook wins hands down for the nebulous but real quality of "best user experience."

Re:hmm

[BitZtream]

The only reason Apple gets away with those prices is because idiots keep paying that price for them.These idiots are the ones sold on Apple as some kind of elite club or status symbol.

Funny thing is, you really only hear this from people who have never owned one. I'm not sure that its because you're too ignorant to bother to realize that your statement is not always true and look or if its that people who have owned one change their minds afterwords. I don't really know, but when I bought my laptop it was the cheapest one available with the hardware it has. Of course, I buy directly after a refresh and not two days before a refresh, so maybe its just your level of intelligence thats the issue and not that people who use apple products that are blowing money.

You can get the same user experience and clean design out of an HP with an aluminum chassis with Ubuntu installed.

No you can't. The fact that you made that statement shows your entire post is pointless. You simply don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Im not talking about Windows VS MacOS. Im talking about how Apple makes more money per PC than any other manufacturer. They charge a premium for the exact same hardware configurations you can get elsewhere, slap a good OS in it, tweak some ergonomics, and then somehow make more money per PC than anyone else? If the reason you bought an Mac is because its pretty and had a good os and you have money to burn, say so rather than defending its "superior user experience". Install Ubuntu on a 1000 dollar HP ENVY 14 series. There. I just configured a PC with a aluminum/magnesium chassis, backlit keyboard, great OS, good (and free) software, a superior user experience, and its cheaper by 200-800 dollars and has better hardware specs than anything Apple currently has in its class (i.e. MacBook Pro 13 and lower end 15).

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? I mean really?

Seriously, Apple products are more expensive. Often significantly.

Yeah really. And the iPad is the prime example.

http://daringfireball.net/2010/11/apples_pricing_advantage

The few Android tablets with decent reviews that either have shipped or don't look like total vaporware are all priced higher than iPad's $499 starting price point ("often significantly"), even with carrier subsidies, displays several inches smaller than iPad, and a free OS courtesy of Google (imagine the price if Google was charging for Android licenses). And heaven help 'em when iPad 2 comes out next week at the same price with all the new features other vendors are having to promise will be in their still-pricier tablets when they ship--Apple is about to knife those babies in the crib.

Right now, it's no exaggeration to say that Dell et al can't compete on price against the iPad.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Troll my ass. People defend Apple likes its their religion, when really all Apple is doing is cheating you. Why do they make more per PC than any other manufacturer if their are so many apparent superior costly features included? If you bought the Apple because its pretty and you have money to burn, be honest rather than lie about some bullshit "superior user experience". For the record, eye pleasing graphic transitions != superior user experience.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

1. It's "fashionable in some parts of geek culture" to, in other words, *not* be fashionable. Isn't that a paradoxical statement?

Not really. Whenever one group (consciously or not) partially or wholly defines itself by rejection of the values of another group, anti-fashion fashion has a good chance of happening.

It's not just geeks. Consider the heavily tattooed biker 'rebel' culture for example, a group which prides and values explicit rejection of mainstream norms of dress and appearance.

Oh, and if the Apple branding on your devices isn't important, then how about scratching off the little Apple logos on each one then?

That's a really really dumb retort.

First, the branding being "not important" to people like the GP and myself does not equate to "hate it so much that I must obliterate it". It means... not important. We can take it or leave it. There is no reason to take it off, doing so would require effort, therefore it stays.

Second, you'd leave behind ugly scratch marks on an otherwise pristine glass or aluminum surface. In an Apple logo shape, to boot! To anybody who likes the aesthetics of Apple products, this would not be an improvement. Not even if your only objection to said aesthetics was that you hated the logo.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Funny thing is, you really only hear this from people who have never owned one. I'm not sure that its because you're too ignorant to bother to realize that your statement is not always true and look or if its that people who have owned one change their minds afterwords. ................. No you can't. The fact that you made that statement shows your entire post is pointless. You simply don't have any idea what you're talking about.

You are simply a pretentious and presumptuous idiot. I own a Macbook Pro, which I bought refurbished because Apple is a bunch of greedy twats. I am aware of the "refresh" but even then you can still get a superior machine from another manufacturer. If Apple really was worth the money, then why do they make more per machine they sell than any other manufacturer? I thought there were numerous costly features built into the machines! Apparently you haven't used Ubuntu in a few years, otherwise you would agree with me. Keep in mind Fancy graphics transitions != Superior user experience. Superior user experience = ease of use and ergonomics. MacOS has those for sure, but so does Ubuntu and I don't have to bend over for an ass reaming to get it. As far as the last part of your statement, you offer no counter argument or proof for your accusation, hence my accusation that you are an idiot.

Re:hmm

[pandrijeczko]

You were the one that made the declaration that if something better existed, then you would buy it. That, by implication, means you have no brand loyalty to Apple, therefore I asked you to prove lack of that brand loyalty by scratching off the logo.

Yes, you are correct. I *AM* concerned enough about logos to the point where they are not the sole criteria by which I choose to use something. Similarly, I know enough about them to realise that just sticking a logo on something means the price of it can be increased. Other than that, I can't say I even remember who made the BIOS on each one of the PCs I own - maybe when I'm bored with "fishing for fanbois and reeling them in", I'll reboot this machine, take a look and then let you know.

I am not automatically an Apple hater - it's just in 30+ years of using computers and gadgets, I've never worked out a good enough reason to buy anything they've made. I stand prepared to be educated by those who do - so off you go then, I'm listening...

Rage Against The Machine? Awful band, far too shouty and angry for my tastes, I much prefer Jethro Tull.

"Douchebaggery"? Well, if that isn't really ancient Anglo-Saxon slang for some medieval sport using bits of pigs and virgins then it bloody well ought to be! If nothing else, it's a damn fine made up word that *NEEDS* to appear in the next Harry Potter novel...

Raging?

Re:hmm

[Fulcrum of Evil]

the hardware lasts for years and the overall experience is leagues better than windows. If you don't care, that's fine, I'll just keep buying what I like.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Nobody that is not an idiot buys Sony.

Re:hmm

[jjohnson]

People defend Apple likes its their religion

And people like you attack Apple like it's your enemy's religion.

If you bought the Apple because its pretty and you have money to burn, be honest rather than lie about some bullshit "superior user experience".

I am being honest when I say that it's not because I think it's pretty or that I have money to burn. You're the one imagining that buying Apple products is all about accessorizing, not about paying more for a better experience. You're the one who can't understand why literally tens of millions of people pay extra and feel like they're getting extra.

This is just a suggestion, but when tens of millions of people do something, and you think they're idiots, you might consider the possibility that you're failing to understand the appeal, not that they're idiots.

For the record, eye pleasing graphic transitions != superior user experience.

The superior user experience of my MacBook is like the superior user experience of my Honda Accord over a Ford Escort: There's a whole bunch of individually better bits that add up to a much improved experience overall.

The most immediate feature of OS X over Windows or Ubuntu is font anti-aliasing, especially on the screens that ship with MacBooks. Windows anti-aliasing is too harsh, and Ubuntu's just looks sloppy. In comparison, text on my MacBook looks crisp at any size and is easiest to read.

Another feature that I far prefer are Apple keyboards. I like the crispness coupled with the short key travel.

Another thing is that "just works" happens far more often for me under OSX than under any Linux yet that I've tried, yet when I want command-line goodness, I have one icon click away with iTerm. Superior desktop experience coupled with the full power of Unix under the hood.

I could go on, but listing all the details misses the point. I genuinely prefer the collection of better things that I get with my MacBook, and I'm willing to pay extra to get it. I don't give a shit about how someone looks at me when I'm working on my MacBook, and I don't have money to burn. I'm just old enough, and have been working with computers long enough, that I'm no longer willing to put up with all the rough edges and sharp corners that litter the landscape in the Unix desktop experience. I've been doing this long enough that I appreciate a "nice" environment that just seems to work as expected.

So please, cut the fucking bullshit about how people who buy Apple products are status-seeking zombies. Your failure to understand does not imply idiocy on the part of everyone else. It's just your failure to understand.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

You argument is completely refuted by how much Apple makes per PC and its comparison to how much other manufacturers make per PC. Guess what? Apple makes WAY MORE. If they truly had some superior features and construction, they would be making close to the same per PC, but they don't. Its because people like you buy them to be part of some elitist laptop user club but its just a made up idea Apple sold you.

Re:hmm

[Quiet_Desperation]

The most fun place for that is wish lists for the next Elder Scrolls game. If you put them all together, you *might* be able to run the game on a 1000 processor computing cluster.

Re:hmm

[Belial6]

Pretty much all headphone jacks have a slight click. The story could more easily be read the other way around. Their Apple engineers tried to slip below par work into the prototypes, and Jobs was aghast that his product was so much worse than even the most low budget audio device, that he mad the engineers spen all night bringing up the iPod's quality to that of even low budget trash. Why do you think he felt there should be a click? Because that is what he was used to with the other audio devices he has used. It was already the norm.

Their designs are not far better in consistency and execution than all of their competition. They have spectacular failurs like Macs that burn themselves up if you set something on top of them, and phones that lose reception because they antenna is badly designed. The difference is that Apple is very good at blaming the user for the failures, and they have built this myth that if they do it, it must be right.

The Emperors New Clothes applies exactly to Apple products.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

The hardware is the same hardware in other PCs. They don't just make all the parts and assemble them, its manufactured by some of the same companies making parts for HP, and Dell, etc. If you don't like windows, install Ubuntu on a HP Envy 14. You just bought a machine that uses a very good non-windows OS, got a better machine than the mid-range MacBook 15, and also saved about 800-1000 dollars.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Most of the new HP Performance models and Ultra-portables have a lot of emphasis on design. Also, the ENVY's are supposed to directly compete with Macbooks at about 800-1000 dollars cheaper for better or equivalent hardware (yes, it also has a metal unibody).

Re:hmm

[tsa]

Man all those people complaining about Apple news annoy the hell out of me. I will call them names and in that way display my superiority.

Re:hmm

[mlts]

Dell and HP have decent business lines, provided you get the premium level of support with the machine.

Apple doesn't piece things out, other than AppleCare. You buy a Mac, you get a known good quantity, and you get a good support level. It is a heck of a lot easier to bring a machine into a Genius Bar if something is broken as opposed to sitting on hold for 3 hours only to get yelled at (and hung up on) for being "non-cooperative" because you are not booting Windows on a box that doesn't even POST.

For people who are versed in computer hardware, it may not make a difference. However, for people who use their computers for a living, having CS that is actually usable can be well worth the difference in price between a Mac and a big box store PC.

Re:hmm

[pandrijeczko]

1. I will have to take your word on that. Since I don't actively seek the approval of others when selecting things like computing devices, then I have no capability of defining them as either "fashion" or "anti-fashion". Besides which, definition of what is and isn't fashionable depends on the size and type of group you are looking at - for example, it would be "fashionable" for pygmy tribesmen in New Guinea to be running about in loin cloths, but put those same tribesmen in the middle of London then clearly those loincloths would then be considered unfashionable.

2a. So, in other words, if you were looking to buy, say, a Macbook and some bloke on a street corner was selling "authentic Macbooks" that he said functioned identically to normal Macbooks, even looked the same, at half the cost but didn't have an Apple logo on them, you would therefore buy one?

2b. I don't get the logic there. Why could I just not scratch out a square shape that covered the entire Apple logo but was then clearly not the same shape as the original logo.

2c. Define your usage of the word "aesthetics". Since scratching the logo off a product would not normally affect it's operation, then since this would not be an improvement to one who revels in "Apple aesthetics", then I take your definition to be the overall look of the product - which, to me, is ultimately irrelevant since the device is a tool, not a fashion accessory - therefore what it looks like is immaterial compared to how well it does its job. But then that also means you've lost the argument as you've basically admitted that the look of a product is of high importance to you, and this is precisely the point I am making about Apple products - style over functionality.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Wrong. MOST people buy Apple because they are status seeking zombies. The fact that people obsessively report Apple news, flock to Apple stores every new release, and buy up all the stock overnight is evidence of that. The fact that kids on my campus tote their iPads with matching iPhone or Macbooks that daddy bought them around and treat them as status symbols is evidence of that. YOU are probably an exception. I would buy one for the operating system if I had money to burn because there are a lot of reason a Linux friendly OS that has good software support would help me with my work as an RA. I am considering an iPad to replace my current HP laptop ultra-portable (which by the way, is the best machine I have ever owned as far as ergonomics and ease-of-use go and even better than my wifes Macbook Pro from 1.5 years ago which I periodically use) simply because the cheaper iPad is a good value and I can write and organize math and engineering diagrams on it without wasting paper. I suspect the iPad 2 will be the best option for me since I suspect I will need a little more processing power. See? Im not some Apple hating zealot. I just think people artificially inflate the cost of their products because the demand is so high, for aforementioned irrational zombie reasons, and frankly it pisses me off because it makes it unaffordable for people that could actually get a good use out of the product rather than using it as some overpriced netbook.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's marketing strategy is brilliant. Unlike other companies, they don't release products with incomprehensible names like the KDH-4001. They don't have to address a myriad of OS compatibility issues (for example, A4-based devices are eligible for iOS updates, the older ones aren't). They have streamlined product lines -- one iPad, one iPod Touch, one Apple TV. By reducing choice, they reduce buyer confusion and uncertainty. A side-effect of this zen marketing approach is that it's easy for the press to write about their products. When a new iPad is introduced, we know ahead of time what to expect, with the addition of a few easy-to-explain doodads (camera! Another camera! Faster! Thinner!). That makes for good copy and makes technophobic users feel somewhat comfortable.

I agree with all of this. I'm a pretty big Apple fan. Switched from Linux to OS X back in 2003. However, I have an Android phone, and it reminds me too much of the stupid PC world. Apps don't work on different hardware platforms or they just suck altogether. The UI is clearly inferior to the iPhone. Every time I have to read a post on how to get something to work on the phone, people spell out what version of Android they have, what hardware they have, this and that. With an iPhone, you just say, "I have an iPhone 3gs" or whatever and you are done.

I've thought a good amount about this recently. To the extent, I was wondering if Apple actually depends on the fragmented PC market for it to succeed or if the Apple model is clearly superior, and the fragmented markets are of no value. I'm beginning to think that the Apple model is the better way. I was doubting in that maybe the PC market served as a testbed to see what new technologies worked and didn't before they were put into Apple products, but I don't think that is the case. Apple has consistently been a hardware and software leader. No other mass produced products are as fragmented as "computers", which include phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, and I guess servers as well, but lets ignore servers. I don't go to Honda and tell them that I want an LS1 engine in the car. But things like phones and PCs come with a slew of OSes made by various people. Just think about how solid Windows would be if it was targeted to specific hardware by a single vendor. I would imagine that the decades of negative connotations towards Windows would have never cropped up if they had a narrower hardware base.

OK, I guess I do disagree with the OP on one point. I don't think this is a marketing strategy, but rather an engineering one. Sure, a streamlined product line helps with marketing and product recognition. I would think that focusing on having fewer products is better than many. Again, lets compare Windows vs OS X. There are a couple versions of OS X (10.4-10.6 older versions are not worth mentioning). There are 5 or so versions of the current offering of Windows (don't know the details, don't correct me here). How does a consumer even know which version of Windows they need? Why should they care? Remember the LS1 engine?

I seriously believe that the streamlined product approach like that of Apple is a better way to go.

Re:hmm

[default luser]

You cannot buy a pristine new windows laptop at this time. Only offered by Apple. Everything else is stuffed with bloatware by the manufacturer.

Yes, you can. Microsoft, in trying to improve the image of the PC, now sells Signature laptops on their online store.

Sure, some of the installed software could be classified as "Crapware" (e.g. Zune) but most of it is useful (Windows Live Essentials, Acrobat Reader), and some of the software is among the best in it's class (Microsoft Security Essentials, Windows Media Center).

You know exactly what you are getting, and it's a whole lot better than your average Windows laptop load-out. And yeah, you pay more (the sale right now knocks $150 off - regular prices are usually $50-100 more than other online stores). But you pay EVEN MORE to get the same star treatment from Apple, so you can hardly call them "overpriced."

Re:hmm

[MoonBuggy]

...and you won't gore yourself when attempting to replace user-serviceable parts...

Although, having done Apple repairs for a while, I can tell you that parts considered non-user serviceable (which used to include the hard drive in iMacs, don't know if it still does) are often hidden behind a matrix of bear traps and razor blades.

Re:hmm

[pandrijeczko]

Sorry, but when did the following equation suddenly become true:

"I do not like Apple products" == "I suck hungrily on the barbed black cock of Sony"

And not that it matters a tinker's cuss to this argument, but I don't use Windows 7 whatsoever. It may be a perfectly good OS that lots of people like but I use Linux and Windows XP and can find no reason to upgrade... or buy Apple products... or indeed spit or swallow the demon jism of Sony.

Re:hmm

[gtall]

"The people who truely dislike Apple news and products aren't doing themselves any favors by bitchbitchbitching."

I think you are ignoring the therapeutic value people who truly dislike Apple news and products get by bitchbitchbitching. If it weren't for the constant stream of Apple news, they'd have a big hole in their life to fill; they'd have to find something else to hate to get the same high.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but this leak is great for me. I've been needing a new laptop, and was going to buy one last week, but then heard about the imminent release of new models. I would have been sorely disappointed (and probably heading back to the store with a return) if I put down a bunch of money a few days early in this case.

I really appreciate at least knowing "this is the date that the next one comes out for probably the same price".

Re:hmm

[thetoadwarrior]

You've never heard of sarcasm have you?

Re:hmm

[Draek]

Because what you so arrogantly call "being a specwhore" means caring about features, which enable us to do things we couldn't otherwise, and that "liking clean design and a good experience" line would be a lot more believable if you went with non-Apple products every once in a while and waited until the actual products were out before you started evangelizing about them.

Re:hmm

[narcc]

iPad 2 comes out next week at the same price with all the new features other vendors are having to promise will be in their still-pricier tablets when they ship--Apple is about to knife those babies in the crib

You're either psychic or a blind zealot. You, like just about everyone else, have absolutely no idea what Apple is going to show on March 2nd.

If their product history to date is any indication, the iPad 2 is going to be a rather prosaic upgrade. It'll have better hardware, obviously, and possibly some UI improvements. RIM, on the other hand, has taken the tablet UI to the next level with the Playbook -- something Apple has never done in a 2nd generation product.

Amazing UI aside, RIM has managed one of the coolest innovations with Blackberry Bridge. Tethering the Playbook to your phone gives you access to all your data and all the security you've come to expect from RIM without needing to manage an addition device. (That's very business IT department friendly.) If that wasn't enough, you don't even need an additional data plan for your tablet -- it can use your phones existing data plan. (Especially cool, you can hand off the PB to a coworker and they'll have access to all their files, email, etc. and no access to your data! If the device is lost or stolen, no need to worry -- all your info is safe from prying eyes -- it won't even be on the device!)

So, with its next-gen UI, business and pocketbook friendly tethering, excellent security, and above-par office suite the Playbook is setting the new standard for tablets. I expect Android tablets to follow RIMs lead and offer similar features and UI improvements later this year -- something Apple isn't likely to do.

If Apple doesn't break from convention with the iPad 2 and offer major changes and improvements, they're going to get destroyed on the tablet front. Check out some videos and you'll agree, the Playbook is a generation ahead of the pack.

Re:hmm

[BlackSnake112]

Any laptop or desktop when taken care of can last for years. If you do not take care of your laptop or desktop, it will not last for years. This is not a hard concept. As far as overall user experience goes, that is very different from person to person. Apple computers are not for everybody. Then again, no one computer manufacturer is the best for everyone.

Re:hmm

[19061969]

Proviso: Am not OP 1. Very few people actively seek approval - it's a social thing with subtle cues. You may not notice or care but lots do. Either way, it's getting OT. I don't by macs for approval. With my way of thinking, busting open a plain laptop with Slackware would be the coolest thing but it doesn't really matter to me. 2a. Yes I would if I was sure they would work as well. Sign me up! 2b. You could. I wouldn't because: 2b i. I might want to resell it - yeah, I'm sure you'd be happy to buy a scratched computer but most people would want a discount. My aim would be to maximise the sale. Therefore, I try to treat my goods (not just Apple computers) carefully so that I can sell for as much as possible. 2b ii. I couldn't be arsed to waste my time in doing this. If the logo was a sticker, then maybe (I've removed many 'made for Windows' -type stickers, but scratching off a logo just to prove your point - it sounds like Adrian Mole and friends wearing red socks under normal socks as a protest. Like the GP said, would you buy a car and then spend hours scratching off all the manufacturers identifying marks. People who do this are far more concerned about "image" than those who don't give a monkeys. I had a friend like this: he never said he was anti-fashion but that he didn't care what clothes he wore. However, he spent more time shopping for down at heel clothes and getting ready to go out than anyone else I know. Methinks you care more for image than you realise. 2c. how things look / sound is mine. Names aren't important to me - as a photographer, I use Fed cameras rather than Leicas even though I have enough cash to afford either. My phone until last year was a flip-top motorola V220, not cool these days by any means.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

http://blogs.computerworld.com/16430/windows_8_leak_shows_why_microsoft_is_no_apple

Re:hmm

[BlackSnake112]

The ipad being the cheapest was an article (on cnn I think?) I read the other day. It boils down to apple having brick and mortar stores and the apple app store. Apple can sell their ipads for less since apple doesn't have to use third parties to sell their products. The other tablet makers do. Maybe not dell, but dell has few stores. Apple sells directly. Also the app store which brings in money for apple is the only place were people can get applications for their ipad.

If ford sold a car that you could only use ford gas, ford tires, ford spark plugs, ford radio stations, and ford mp3s people would be in an uproar. This is not the case with electronics. That method is acceptable for now. Will this change, we will see. But for now, apple has a cash cow that they will milk for as long as possible. Sony, samsung, and everyone else would do the same thing if they could.

Re:hmm

[gstoddart]

Apple's marketing strategy is brilliant. Unlike other companies, they don't release products with incomprehensible names like the KDH-4001. They don't have to address a myriad of OS compatibility issues (for example, A4-based devices are eligible for iOS updates, the older ones aren't). They have streamlined product lines

You know, that's as much an engineering/manufacturing strategy as it is marketing. Two sides of the same coin, and more representative of an entirely different end-to-end philosophy.

If your product line isn't cluttered with 16 variations of the same thing that nobody can decipher, you can focus on making one and doing it "right" (for however you define right).

There's no Starter, Home, Deluxe, Ultimate, Enterprise, and Shiny Sparkly versions to deal with ... just a single product which can be articulated to the consumer. Even if you have different sizes (like the iPad or some of the iPods), this can be easily explained to the consumer -- this one has more storage than that one, if you have more stuff, buy the bigger one.

That makes for good copy and makes technophobic users feel somewhat comfortable.

Again, not just "marketing" -- once they get it home they feel comfortable when they're actually using it.

It's one thing to say "easy and intuitive to use" in the marketing glossy ... it's another to actually be easy and intuitive. Now, for the hard-core geeks around here, Apple may offer too "easy" of an experience -- but, for the rest of the people who use it, it does precisely what they've been told it would do.

That's kind more than you can accomplish with just marketing.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You were the one that made the declaration that if something better existed, then you would buy it. That, by implication, means you have no brand loyalty to Apple, therefore I asked you to prove lack of that brand loyalty by scratching off the logo.

Again, on the contrary, I care so little about the logo it doesn't matter to me if it is there or not. And again, if there were something better, different logo or no logo at all, I would buy it.

So to point out the obvious to those whom it escapes: it is you who cares most about the logo. You want it not to be there. I don't care either way.

Re:hmm

[gstoddart]

Another reason people are so obsessed with them is that they have made themselves become status symbols by their cost and appearance. If you fork out 2000 for a laptop people look at you like you have money. Also, people are under the impression that increased cost means better performance.

Has it occurred to you that people don't necessarily buy it because it's a status symbol, or because they feel they're getting better 'performance'?

No, really. I know guys with Master's degrees in computer science, who are perfectly capable coders, and who can get into the grotty bits of hardware just like everyone else. When they go home in the evening, their personal machine is a Mac -- not to show off to their friends, but because in their experience, the Mac simply is easier to use and doesn't give them half the headaches as their work laptops do.

To a person, the people I know with Macs are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a better experience. That is, usability, stability, and less fiddling with it.

Maybe you're not including enough things in your evaluation of "better" and "quality" -- if you don't need a million frames per second on a high end gaming rig, or you just want to do basic things and not get mired down in forcing the computer to do what you want -- for some people's standards that slower computer with less RAM is a better computer.

At the end of the day, it's only the functional aspects of my computer I really care about. And my personal machine is a big honking Vista box with what used to be obscene amounts of RAM and disk. I've thought many times of adding a Mac to my flock of computers.

Re:hmm

[JoeytheSquid]

I agree, and I think those who don't comprehend Apple's success simply may not have an appreciation for aesthetics. They're either buying products on price or spec and to that point, a pulsating glowing LED, cables that click nicely into place and well-machined, metal cases don't factor into their purchasing decisions. After all, products don't elicit a feel, they simply perform a function.

As a designer, I can't wrap my brain around that. However I appreciate the fact that to some, my own ideals are equally as ridiculous. After all, I'd buy a technically inferior product simply because it was prettier and easier to use. Nevertheless I'm thankful Apple exists because it gives consumers like myself a choice. Although I use a wide variety of tech (and currently don't even carry an Apple phone), I like that at least one tech company is providing the world with some gorgeous industrial design. And as HP looks to be jumping on the Apple bandwagon in order to differentiate themselves from all the other PC vendors, they may start doing the same with their webOS line.

In that respect, choice is great. People are free to use their technically advanced Android phones while I can use my aesthetically pleasing and easy to use webOS phone. Everyone wins.

Re:hmm

[amentajo]

You were the one that made the declaration that if something better existed, then you would buy it. That, by implication, means you have no brand loyalty to Apple, therefore I asked you to prove lack of that brand loyalty by scratching off the logo.

I'll help to try and clarify BitZtream's point a little... not adding an Apple logo onto a computer that does not yet have an Apple logo is worlds different from scratching an Apple logo off of a computer that does have one. "The Apple branding on my devices isn't important" means that one does not care if it's there or not. Not caring about whether or not there is an Apple logo means that, without added incentive, one is not going to add an Apple logo if it's not there, and one is not going to scratch it off if it is. It does not necessitate scratching off an already-existing logo, because it has already been posited that one does not care.
Furthermore, if one scratches the Apple logo off of one's computer without an external incentive to do so, then it can be safely assumed that one does, indeed, care whether or not there is an Apple logo on the machine.
In fact, I believe that it would be enlightening to see how many people would pay $50 less to get an Apple computer that doesn't sport an Apple logo versus an otherwise-equivalent one that does.

Yes, you are correct. I *AM* concerned enough about logos to the point where they are not the sole criteria by which I choose to use something. Similarly, I know enough about them to realise that just sticking a logo on something means the price of it can be increased. Other than that, I can't say I even remember who made the BIOS on each one of the PCs I own - maybe when I'm bored with "fishing for fanbois and reeling them in", I'll reboot this machine, take a look and then let you know.

It sounds to me like you're making an implicit straw-man comparison here. I doubt that most people who buy Apple products do so solely because of the logo, though that may play a non-zero role in the decision-making process, and the branding likely does get reflected somewhat in the price of the product. For instance, Mac OS X does not come pre-installed (legally) on any other manufacturer's computers that I know of. Say what you will about the relative merits and demerits of that operating system versus others, Mac OS X is more valuable to some people than Microsoft Windows is, and those people will pay a higher price for a Mac than they will for a "Windows machine" of equivalent hardware specifications.

I am not automatically an Apple hater - it's just in 30+ years of using computers and gadgets, I've never worked out a good enough reason to buy anything they've made. I stand prepared to be educated by those who do - so off you go then, I'm listening...

I completely agree with your stated position, though I can only really claim a mere 15+ years of using computers and gadgets, myself.
One potentially good reason that one might buy an Apple machine, if you are genuinely looking for such a reason, is to be able to develop applications to sell on the App Store. That kind of exposure could be lucrative under the proper conditions. It's not a good reason for me to buy a Mac for myself, but I believe that it is a good enough reason for the rational consumer who does have those needs.

Re:hmm

[jimicus]

If "cheaper is always better" were universally true, 2001 would have been the Year of the Linux Desktop.

As it stands, AFAICT Apple's product development works something like this:

• Release a product. It may not be an entirely new idea - the iPhone wasn't the first smartphone, for instance - and it may be missing features that will lead to raised eyebrows. But overall, it'll be as slick as a very slick thing and while it won't be cheap, if you compare it to top-of-the-range offerings from their competitors, at the very least they're pretty comparable. Quite often the competitors are left looking rather silly - usually because their product is identical specs-wise but nothing like as neatly executed. And costs about the same.
• Essentially sit on the product for 2, maybe 3 years. Release occasional incremental updates of the sort which anyone would have expected from the day the product was first released. Towards the end of this period, the product starts to look somewhat outdated and poor value for money - competitors have products with similar specs on paper but a LOT cheaper. What was top of the range 3 years previously has filtered down to the bottom of the PC market, but Apple are still selling it as a top of the range product. I would say the 13" Macbook Pro is at this stage.
• Release an update that is such a big upgrade that you're back to step 1.

Re:hmm

[Beer_Smurf]

One thing that gets left out of the craptop issue.
The Apple product comes with a full blown non-crippled copy of the OS.
The full copy of Windows you need to add to make the comparison accurate costs an additional $250.00.

Re:hmm

[gobbo]

To be clear, there are only two Mac OS choices: OS X (currently 10.6) and OS X Server, so for a desktop user there's really only one choice. (iOS is mandatory on relevant devices, no choice there.)

OS X is a pretty complete unix install, apple flavoured, with proprietary stuff lathered on top... i.e. the base model is the pro version, not crippled in any way (other than general apple buggy/quirkiness).

Re:hmm

[gobbo]

More than this: I was annoyed by the lack of a mid-range headless mac, so I set out to build a hackintosh. At the time, the IPS monitor on the iMac 24 was what I was aiming for (1.8 yrs ago, time to upgrade soon), and I needed video editing capabilities with Final Cut.

By the time I'd priced out all the parts (newegg/NCIX, don't say I didn't shop right) to find equivalent function and similar quality, I was $120 under the price of a refurb iMac, except for the crappy video card. I'm not a gamer, so I bought the iMac and saved time and money.

OTOH, I needed a cheap laptop. HP netbook for me, and I never bothered to hackintosh it, because Win7 is just fine (and linux netbook offerings aren't good enough yet).

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Those coders use a Mac because its as easy or easier than Windows but its Linux friendly. It also is optimized more than Windows however, you cannot say that Windows 7 is less functional than MacOS X, it just isn't as optimized and eats up too much CPU/GPU time and Memory. You can use pretty much all the Linux software you want on a Mac. I don't dispute that the operating system has many merits that make it better than Windows. I am saying that buying a Macbook is a not a purchase you can justify by simply saying "the user experience" is superior unless you are willing to say an operating system is worth a 500-1000 dollar premium upcharge. You can get the same features that a Macbook Pro has for less money, and you will actually have better hardware on the machine. An example is the HP Envy 14. Install Ubuntu on that sucker and you have just saved 1000 bucks and only have a few minor inconveniences. The iMacs and Mac minis are probably the best value Apple has, and you can lump the iPad in there as well. I know its hard to see, or maybe you are not exposed to it on a daily basis like I am, but Macs and Apple products ARE a status symbol. Its evident by the sheer volume of students on my campus that use it as one, the people that obsess over Apple products in the media, and the fact that people exhaust the supply of new Apple products that are released in massive lines around the corner of stores. Many times you will have students who in no way could possibly afford themselves to buy an iPad/iPhone combo or a iPhone/Macbook combo themselves, yet they act like they are part of some elite club of notebook users or part of some Apple subculture and try to show it off to their friends. What pisses me off is that Apple products became a status symbol. I actually have a very good reason that I would need a Macbook, much like the coders you mention, but I cannot afford one because idiots pay exorbitant prices for them in droves simply because IT IS a status thing. If you don't believe that the prices are too high, consider this. Even after the engineering and design, Macbooks and some other Apple products are still making more money on each sale over pretty much every other manufacturer out there. Why should this be the case if so many extra-cost features are added to the machine? If Macbooks would cost 200-300 dollars more than equivalently equipped laptops, I would pay it gladly. Unfortunately its more like 500-1000 or more. Maybe you are one of the few who use a Macbook as it should be used, but most people just get one because it makes them "cool".

Re:hmm

[RocketRabbit]

"tech event of the decade as far as I'm concerned"

Did you have a Windows 7 house party?

Re:hmm

[SimonTheSoundMan]

This comes to mind:

Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Uhhh. No. The iPhone is ridiculously expensive and not comparable to other offerings cost-wise. You can get a very powerful and functional Android phone for less than half what a iPhone costs. There also is no "similar specs on paper but a lot cheaper" in their computer market. Its MUCH BETTER specs on paper for competing manufacturers, and its a lot cheaper (500-1000 bucks cheaper). Compare the HP Envy 14 to the Macbook Pro 15 low-end. Apple never, ever, ever tries to compete with price / performance ratio with other manufacturers. The best time to buy an Apple product is after the first release, otherwise you are getting screwed more and more every day since they don't change their prices as the base component costs get cheaper, and they don't even bother trying to compete by offering more recent hardware developments in their products. The last revision of the Macbooks literally had no reason to put the Core 2 Duo in the 13 inch Macbook pro, especially at that price. You could have bought much better hardware at that time, for cheaper.

Re:hmm

[gstoddart]

Those coders use a Mac because its as easy or easier than Windows but its Linux friendly.

See, now you're actually speaking out of your ass. The guys that I know with Macs, are not going home and dropping to the UNIX command line. They're using the GUI. They're not going home in the evening and coding in PHP, they're looking up recipes and sending email.

I am saying that buying a Macbook is a not a purchase you can justify by simply saying "the user experience" is superior unless you are willing to say an operating system is worth a 500-1000 dollar premium upcharge.

Yes, and the people who prefer their Macs believe that the overall system is worth that much more ... do you not get that? Yes, you make a strong case that among superficial college students, it's a status symbol ... but we're not all college students.

I know its hard to see, or maybe you are not exposed to it on a daily basis like I am, but Macs and Apple products ARE a status symbol. Its evident by the sheer volume of students on my campus that use it as one

Look, University was a long time ago. I don't measure myself according to the standards of some whiny 20 year old ... maybe you should realize that there is more to life than how you perceive it at this age.

Many times you will have students who in no way could possibly afford themselves to buy an iPad/iPhone combo or a iPhone/Macbook combo themselves, yet they act like they are part of some elite club of notebook users or part of some Apple subculture and try to show it off to their friends.

Again, college students ... a couple of years ago, everybody was putting fancy rims on their POS car.

I'm not going to seriously debate your assertion that all people who buy a Mac are buying it as a status symbol based on the fact that your entire sample seems to be based on college kids.

Use that big, fancy college brain of yours to realize that for many of the Apple market (it's not all college kids), it is about functionality. When you get out into the real world, and actually have a paycheck, you might understand that for many people, they'll gladly pay the premium to get what they perceive to be a better overall experience.

Part of what you should be learning is to see the world outside of your own self and how you've experienced it. When you go around making the categorical statement that all people with Macs have bought them as status symbols, you're completely seeing the world from the eyes of a college student and how you perceive life on campus.

The world changes when you're out in it, and one of the things is that messing around with a &*^%*& computer i your spare time is a waste of your time.

Dude, seriously, take a couple of humanities courses, date some hippy chick who smells like patchouli, broaden your horizons ... and stop worrying about what other people buy. That's what I'd do if I was back in college.

Re:hmm

[Fulcrum of Evil]

The HP costs about $400 less than the MBP I got a year or two back. For that money, I have Office, Photoshop, a large amount of support, and unix. Match that.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Again, college students ... a couple of years ago, everybody was putting fancy rims on their POS car. I'm not going to seriously debate your assertion that all people who buy a Mac are buying it as a status symbol based on the fact that your entire sample seems to be based on college kids. Use that big, fancy college brain of yours to realize that for many of the Apple market (it's not all college kids), it is about functionality. When you get out into the real world, and actually have a paycheck, you might understand that for many people, they'll gladly pay the premium to get what they perceive to be a better overall experience. Part of what you should be learning is to see the world outside of your own self and how you've experienced it. When you go around making the categorical statement that all people with Macs have bought them as status symbols, you're completely seeing the world from the eyes of a college student and how you perceive life on campus. The world changes when you're out in it, and one of the things is that messing around with a &*^%*& computer i your spare time is a waste of your time. Dude, seriously, take a couple of humanities courses, date some hippy chick who smells like patchouli, broaden your horizons ... and stop worrying about what other people buy. That's what I'd do if I was back in college.

I am not simply some University student. I am a PhD student. I have spent the better part of my life using computers for gaming, coding, productivity, and research. As a matter of fact, I currently work for a Lab doing facial recognition research, and guess who uses Macs? The students with wealthy parents who give them anything they want, and the professors that staple their names to your papers when all they do is edit them and give you a meager sum to live off of. And by meager, I mean I could make more money at McDonald's.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Here you are in an Apple thread....

Re:hmm

[Draek]

No, but neither did I have even a drink in celebration for the iPhone, iPad or iWhatever.

Re:hmm

[gstoddart]

I am not simply some University student. I am a PhD student.

*laugh* Piled Higher and Deeper. Post Hole Digger. If anybody needs to take some humanities classes, date a hippie chick, and get laid, it's you. Of course, at this point, it might be too late for at least two of those things. ;-)

guess who uses Macs? The students with wealthy parents who give them anything they want

Well, there will always be people who have more than you. It's a fact of life. Worrying about the status symbols of other people is a waste of your time and energy. If being a perpetual student has made you bitter and sulky that other people have things that you don't ... well, you chose it.

and the professors that staple their names to your papers when all they do is edit them and give you a meager sum to live off of. And by meager, I mean I could make more money at McDonald's.

Yup, poor starving graduate student ... I don't regret for a minute that I didn't finish graduate school.

Truthfully, the people I know with Master's degrees don't know anything more practical than I do, and they will likely end up never actually using anything they studied after their undergrad. (OK, that's a bit unfair, but I do know people with Master's degrees who don't know stuff they should have learned as an undergrad.) The people I know who started PhD's all either decided to go the industry route and left, or ended up too qualified to actually work anywhere.

So, either you've wasted all of those years, or you'll be one of the few lucky ones who gets to do something with it and get paid for it -- besides, of course, become a prof and abusing your own graduate students. Once you're getting paid, you might realize that some of the things you call status symbols, the rest of us call "nice things" that are worth the money. Seems the people who can least afford such things are most worried about them being status symbols.

But, you should not confuse something being purely a status symbol, and realizing that those that can afford it think it's worth the money. Especially if you're only basing it off college life. Believe it or not, lots of smart people who don't want to muck about with the fiddly bits use Macs because they find it to be a far better system for what they use it for.

When people make choices that aren't the ones you made, they aren't automatically wrong.

Re:hmm

[j-beda]

Apple's profit margin could partially be a factor of their manufacturing process and their overall costs for returns and repairs - it is possible to make something a little better than your competition and then charge a bit more than your competition, and then have a profit margin a LOT more than your competition.

Clearly Apple tries to position themselves as a "premium" brand, and has many have pointed out a lot of that positioning is psychological rather than actual differences in the product. But there are some significant differences in customer satisfaction at the end of the day. Consumer Reports is not by any measure particular fans of Apple products, but their reader surveys do seem to indicate that their customers are highly satisfied with the whole "Apple Experience" from purchasing, through using, and trouble support. How much this "experience" is worth from a financial point of view of course is very subjective. In any case they seem to have managed to convince a lot of people to buy their stuff - so at least some people don't think it is too overpriced.

Re:hmm

[worx101]

Not denying that some buy Apple as a status thing, but this is far from the majority. Some do it out of Microsoft hate and they find Linux complicated. Some do it out of brand loyality(still sort idiotic but its not out of fashion.) I also personally like OSX because it is basically Unix and it has all the software I need released on it already. And in all honesty, the price isn't that much different if you compare everything and not just the processor and hard-drive size.

Re:hmm

[froggymana]

Personally, I would go with a Lenovo Thinkpad for your laptop needs. Sure they might not be considered to be as good as when made by IBM, but they are still a step above the rest in my opinion.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"Install Ubuntu on a 1000 dollar HP ENVY 14 series"

AND you can still run Lightroom on it! Oh, wait - maybe not. BUT the software that came with my Canon camera will run on it ... Wait, no, that won't either. BUT the software that comes with my new ...
WAIT! Tell me again how putting Ubuntu on it makes it better than OS X or even Windows?

Re:hmm

[codepunk]

I have on that the keyboard top has cracked on three times. When it cracks and starts annoying me enough I walk into a apple store and they just clean the whole laptop and replace the cover for me, yes for free. When I buy another laptop it will be another mac, their customer support is without question the best.

Re:hmm

[dropadrop]

Yeah, the Windows machine specs out nicer, but that doesn't mean much outside of test-bed environments, looking at performance from a clean install on a pristine new computer.

You cannot buy a pristine new windows laptop at this time. Only offered by Apple. Everything else is stuffed with bloatware by the manufacturer.

Yeah, I got my HTPC with Windows 7 and left it on the side while installing Linux as the primary OS. Windows was amazingly slow to boot and sluggish to use untill somebody here posted a link to the pc decrapifyier: http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/

Now Windows boots up about as fast as the minimal Ubuntu server / XBMC set up and works surprisingly well given the hardware (1.6ghz Atom). I still don't consider it a pleasure to use, but compared to the state it was when the machine was sold to me it's like buying a 2 generations newer computer.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

There's no Starter, Home, Deluxe, Ultimate, Enterprise, and Shiny Sparkly versions to deal with ... just a single product which can be articulated to the consumer.

Microsoft needed all those editions because they had customers in all those markets. Apple has customers in two markets; home users and graphic artists. They used to have music, too, but they lost that in buckets in the PPC era when you could get a PC that did twice as much for half as much money. The graphic artists were too stupid and/or obstinate to switch during the same time and are STILL paying for it (my mom is one of them. her first machine was a Mac IIci system with a 20" grey display that cost her $5k and would have retailed for eight thousand... When a comparable PC cost about four. Unfortunately, Adobe plus Windows equaled Crash at the time.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

I find Gateway's hardware to be mostly OK, but their support is CRAP and so is their whole mentality. I have a gateway netbook with Athlon 64 and they disabled AMD-V! so basically I have a Sempron 64. Fuck you Gateway, I will do everything I can to prevent sales by you for the remainder of my existence. Further, when you call them on the phone for even something which is their fault they fall all over themselves to tell you why it's your fault.

HP sold me a netbook with a Quadro GPU die bonding problem. They knew it had the problem before it shipped. I finally got a tech to admit they knew they had a problem and eventually got a new machine... after over 24 hours of phone time.

Sony? Don't even talk to me about Sony.

The last good laptop is Asus.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

Bwahahahah! Okay, now I know you're a troll. The user experience of OS X vs. Ubuntu is like comparing a professional massage to a kick in the nuts.

That is so true. In Linux, I can rearrange my gadgets and theme to be easier to work with. In OSX I'm stuck with steve's widgets. In Linux, I can make my window-tiling and virtual-desktop-tiling features behave how I want them. In OSX, I'm stick with steve's options. In Linux, all my applications look pretty much the same since Qt made QGTKStyle part of the Qt main distribution. On OSX, Apple is still using what, four widget sets? Or is it five? On OSX, when the GUI beachballs I have to log in remotely to kill it, and then more than half the time I have to reboot anyway. On Linux, when the GUI hangs I switch to a VT, log in, and kill the X server, and I usually get to log right back in.

The aluminum case on the MacBook is just icing on an already delicious cake.

Yes, Apple makes very nice cases. Too bad the guts aren't any better than anyone else's. It's also too bad the UI is so fucking poor. That you have convinced yourself that you like it says nothing about it whatsoever, only about you.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

HP sold me a very expensive laptop (a loaded EliteBook) with a GPU die bonding problem that they knew it had. Then I had to spend about 24 hours on the phone (not consecutively... over a period of months) to get it replaced, with the machine crashing every time I made much use of the GPU all the while. For all Apple's ills, they don't treat the customer THIS badly.

I will never give HP another dime for anything if I can avoid it. Printers, PCs, scanners, you name it, I'm done.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

Apple makes its fair share of gaffes, and it's not obvious that all of their design choices are worth the premium costs. (Again, I mostly don't buy their stuff.) But as far as test cases to ponder, their products are the best around. One can really evaluate the pros and cons of a touch interface now that Apple put serious effort into designing a UI that is touch-centric

Whether you deal with OSX or Windows you have an event queue that is stuffed with events, and the motion that eventually produces the events comes through the pointing interface. How is this really different?

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

CHEAPER!" - but the included parts in the PC are all, well, cheaper too. The plastic is cheaper, the screen is cheaper, just about everything is cheaper. THe PC will be loaded with bloatware and a ton of Intel Inside and other such design sticker bullshit. The body will be plastic, not Aluminum. The list goes on and on.

A low end mac is made of plastic. High end PCs in metal cases are available. The bloatware is real but can be vaporized. An intel inside sticker can be removed. But most telling, both the mac and the PC are made of the same stuff inside. Asus and Apple motherboards are both made by Foxconn, with the exact same components. Neither Apple nor Asus makes their own chipsets, CPUs, et cetera. Your comment is loaded with a bunch of dizzy-headed Apple fanboy bullshit.

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

You cannot buy a pristine new windows laptop at this time. Only offered by Apple. Everything else is stuffed with bloatware by the manufacturer.

If you buy something business-grade rather than kiddie-grade that is not true. HP EliteBooks for example do not come with anything extraneous but the HP updater which you DEFINITELY WANT since they actually make driver updates. I would not give HP another dime ever if I can avoid it due to their awful customer service but that doesn't change that there are OEMs who offer machines without crapware.

Re:hmm

[Vectormatic]

i said the same thing several times about the mac mini (and the ipad), going "if they upgrade the base mini to X specs, i'll get one". They end up doing the upgrade, but also raising the price by 100 euros, reducing the price/performance ratio back to what it was, or worse, immediatly destroying my desire to get one

on the ipad launch, i was basically pretty smashed that all it was was an ipod touch maxi.

I did end up getting an ipod touch though, but next time when looking for an mp3 player, itunes is going to be a serious mark on any candidate (yeah, rythmbox handles it adequately these days, but i prefer my mp3 player to simply be a USB mountable volume)

Re:hmm

[Vectormatic]

One thing that gets left out of the craptop issue.

The Apple product comes with a full blown non-crippled copy of the OS.
The full copy of Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLinux you need to add to make the comparison accurate costs an additional $25^H^H0.00.

there you go

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You're either psychic or a blind zealot. You, like just about everyone else, have absolutely no idea what Apple is going to show on March 2nd.

Not exactly, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Apple has been watching what hardware all these forthcoming Android tablets are supposed to have and will build similar tech into iPad 2. You really think Apple is stupid, don't you? You think Apple doesn't watch these other product announcements?

If their product history to date is any indication, the iPad 2 is going to be a rather prosaic upgrade. It'll have better hardware, obviously, and possibly some UI improvements.

Now who's trying to be the psychic?

RIM, on the other hand, has taken the tablet UI to the next level with the Playbook -- something Apple has never done in a 2nd generation product. Amazing UI aside, RIM has managed one of the coolest innovations with Blackberry Bridge. Tethering the Playbook to your phone gives you access to all your data and all the security you've come to expect from RIM without needing to manage an addition device...

Yep, all nifty sounding features. A shame the Playbook isn't for sale yet. Call me when its a shipping product and not a video demo.

If Apple doesn't break from convention with the iPad 2 and offer major changes and improvements, they're going to get destroyed on the tablet front.

[sarcasm]Yeah, because history shows that the minute somebody comes out with a gizmo with neat feature, it will immediately decimate all of the highly entrenched competition.[/sarcasm] You call me a blind Apple zealot, but you're a blind Apple hater. That little missive of yours reads like a RIM marketing brochure.

Apple get destroyed on the tablet front? Apple and Android have been decimating RIM, not the other way around. Apple owns 80%+ of the tablet market and has a the dominant ecosystem, which is proving to be just as important as tech specs and features. 80% of the Fortune 500 have either adopted or are field-testing iOS devices; and there's no tablet tech on the horizon that RIM or anyone else can come out with at this point that Apple doesn't have the expertise and resources to match. Heck, Apple has the cash on hand to outright buy RIM if they really thought the Playbook was going to be that kind of threat.

Nope. Apple's position in the tablet market is extremely strong, and it'll take more than a few neat features in a competing product to unseat them.

Re:hmm

[guruevi]

Hard drive, RAM and some other things are user-serviceable on most models. The rest is not really modular even in other computers and usually they'll end up replacing the whole unit - almost none of the main manufacturers bother troubleshooting any further than "Hard Drive", "Peripherals" or "Other" problems.

If not, the 1 or 3 year warranty allows you to bring it to any Mac Store, Apple Reseller for on-the-spot repairs or they'll send next-day on-site tech(s) for repair. Alternatively they'll ship you a self-addressed, padded box in the shape of the product with detailed instructions how to ship it (or the parts) back (free UPS or FedEx pick-up).

Dell, HP and the rest require you to buy an expensive Gold/Premium contract to get that type of service and even then work hard against you in order not to have to do too much. And usually you'll end up having to pay for the shipping and then have the audacity to tell you that you shipped it incorrectly and voided your warranty.

Re:hmm

[Dog-Cow]

They announced the iPhone early because they had to submit it to the FCC for certification, and that was going to make it public anyway.

Re:hmm

[jeremyp]

If Apple really was worth the money, then why do they make more per machine they sell than any other manufacturer?

Because the machines they make are worth the money. If they were not worth the money, people would not buy them and they would be forced to lower the price and their margin.

Whether something is "worth the money" is not a function of manufacturing cost but of the perceived benefit to the buyer.

Re:hmm

[Ol Olsoc]

There ya go!

Ummm, it's well enough known that some people are just going to complain about anything Apple. So your ranting is simply going to:

1. Establish you as either a kook or a Hater of all things Apple

2. Prove to the advertisers that they are being seen.

On the other hand, you might try to organize some sort of boycott of any advertisers who put ads on a page that is about Apple Products. See rule 1 above. If they get the idea that only kooks read /., they might pull their ads.

Otherwise, set there and keep yelling "Get those Apple fanbois off my damn lawn!"

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

Generally speaking, if a manufacturer has a low production cost, the cost of the product goes down for competition. This is not so with Apple. They have successfully created a marketing campaign that has convinced everyone that it IS worth the extra dollars because "it just works". They basically took advantage of peoples frustrations with technology (which is actually a function of their own ignorance not necessarily stupidity) and made a product that convincingly is easier to use with flashy little eye candy incorporated. I can use my PC without any hiccups at all, its not a mac, so why can't they do the same? It didn't even take me very long to figure it out. It would probably take me longer to learn how to use a Mac like I can a Windows machine than it would make up for in the claimed productivity time people seem to think they get out of their Mac. Im not suggesting that people do not have a right to spend their money as they see fit, I am merely stating a fact that there are more cost effective and equally good products for purchase out there than Apple. I don't understand why Apple-heads come out in droves whenever someone criticizes the business practices of Apple. They charge too much, its obvious, and they don't care because one more person falls victim to good marketing and flashy design every day. My HP laptop is fucking gorgeous, "it just works", its sturdy as hell, super light weight, made of partially aluminum with a plastic bottom, doesn't slip around on smooth surfaces, and has ergonomic keyboard layout, doesn't get bogged down with use its designed for (i.e. not 3D gaming), has dedicated graphics for HD video, boots in about 30-40 seconds, and comes out of sleep in probably 20-30. Is it REALLY worth 500-1000 dollars more money to get an extra 20 seconds? I can install Ubuntu for free and get that. My laptop cost me 600 dollars and has more RAM, a faster and bigger hard drive, and same resolution screen as the 1200 dollar models Apple gave you before the update today (which isnt suprising since I bought it over a year ago). I think my laptop is lighter weight too. The Core2Duo is a better processor than I have, but doesn't cost 600 dollars more than the one I have. Really, the only thing that would make my laptop better would be the Magsafe but thats also not worth 600 dollars. All I am saying is, be honest. You buy Apple for the sexiness and nice OS, not because they make some superior product for functionality and sturdiness.

Re:hmm

[PatHMV]

Well, I bought my MacBook Pro 17" last year because it was lighter and thinner than my previous comparably equipped Dell, had a longer battery life, and had a much more reliable and speedy OS than the Dell. Is a "good" OS worth several hundred extra dollars? To me, you bet. For me, the price premium is justified simply because I don't have to wait a minute for the machine to wake up from sleep every time I lug it from home to the office or vice versa, or when I come back from lunch. Not having to reboot at least once a week (usually much more often) is also worth some of that cost. And I didn't have to spend hours of my life digging into obscure settings and learning how to set everything just right to make that happen. Also, on my Dell laptop, I often found that I'd be in the middle of typing, in a browser or on the word processor, and some other high priority task would kick in for unknown reasons, and what I typed wouldn't be displayed for several seconds. That hasn't happened with the Mac. Also worth a good chunk of money to me.

As for your Linux PC, please. As another responder noted, Lightroom is THE easiest to use, most powerful photo-editing and photo-organizing software out there. Photography is my major hobby, and switching to Lightroom has drastically reduced the time it takes me to sort, select, and edit my photos. That caliber of software is not available on Linux at the current time.

So thank you, I think my choice of the MacBook Pro was quite rationale given my needs and what's currently available on the market. A pretty case had very, very little to do with it. If Dell or somebody else could make a Windows machine function this well, I can assure you I'd be happy to buy it... and then there would be real competition, and Apple would have to lower its prices some and no longer make more money per PC than anybody else. Apple decided to compete on performance... REAL performance, not tech spec porn performance... and it's winning, and thus making more money.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

None of what you said happens on my HP, and it cost 650. I routinely leave it on for a week or so at a time (well, in sleep I suppose). It boots in about 40-50 seconds, comes out of sleep in about 30-40. It has a upper half aluminum chassis, but thats good because the bottom doesnt slip around on surfaces and its light weight and I can actually access the hard drive and ram to upgrade if I want. It actually has better resolution at 13 inches than the Macbook Pro 13. It comes with a faster hard drive at the same capacity as well. It doesn't have as good of a processor, but its processor is designed for lower power consumption so its not really comparable. I also have dedicated graphics on it, but its not as good as the 320m. I bought this over a year ago. The only complaint I have for it is the power button being a weird sliding switch on one side, and the fact it doesn't have magsafe (which is by far the coolest feature on Macbooks IMO). Im just saying, Macs are no longer the superior user experience everyone claims them to be. They were 2-3 years ago, not anymore. Other manufacturers as well as Microsoft had to learn a hard lesson, and they did. The extra aluminum, magsafe, backlit keyboard, OS, and CPU can't possible make up for the 550 dollar difference (at least not to me). Hell, whatever floats your boat man. Some people can afford to pay twice as much for an increase of 10 percent. Its like with guitars. You can buy a damn good one for 1000 bucks, but if you want that 10 percent extra good sound and handling out of a guitar you will end up paying well over 2000.

Re:hmm

[PatHMV]

Fair enough. I do note that my coming out of sleep time is about 5 seconds, compared to your 30-40. And you said you're running Ubuntu. As I said, I can't run the software I need on Ubuntu. If all I did was web surfing and some office document work, fine. But for the photography work I do, the Adobe tools are the fastest, easiest tools to use available, and they're not on Linux.

But your main points are perfectly valid. I just get peeved when some /.ers wildly assert that Mac users are just distracted by pretty things, rather than recogniziting that at least a few of us are simply willing to pay more for a product which does in fact go that extra 10%.

Re:hmm

[Antisyzygy]

No no. I use Windows 7. Its much better than Vista and XP is. Hell, DOS is almost better than Vista. Last time I had a Vista machine I installed Ubuntu on it and it actually worked pretty good for my purposes (audio recording / office / email). I upgraded to a new HP dv3 a little over a year ago and its been the best laptop Ive ever had. My wife seems to like her Macbook Pro alot. She told me "She switched to Apple" last time I talked about some cool new non-Apple things like the HP tablet I am hoping gets more apps. Then again though, she does graphic design so I guess that's the industry standard for it. Even at that we bought her Macbook Pro refurbished so its a better value. Its true, Apple makes a killer product. I just have trouble justifying it for my own uses at that price when perfectly reasonable substitutes exist (for my use). If they sold it cheaper they would put everyone out of business.

Re:hmm

[Coren22]

I am currently typing on a Mac Pro. Mac is expensive junk, the only reason I use one is that I am a sys admin, and have to support Macs, so I got the Mac that is closest to the PC I would normally get (for 1k more than the equivalent Dell that was two years old and being replaced...) Macs absolutely are only status symbols. The people around here who use Macs look at the Dell servers we use and call them plastic junk, which I find hilarious as they are way stronger and better designed than anything made by Apple.

If you want to get an idea of why items made by Apple are expensive junk, compare the prices on Dell, HP and Apple 30" screens. They have the same features, and use the exact same LCD panel.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent comment. It's called differentiated marketing, as opposed to low cost leaders (Dell). Slashdot people are a niche of people that can/will/do build their own machines and play around with linux. Not Apple's market. Geeks need to take some marketing/management classes.

Not fiber?

[NotAGoodNickname]

I'm very disappointed that Apple chose the copper variant of Light Peak and not the fiber version. You can guess why!

Re:Not fiber?

[Sponge Bath]

Even more bizarre is the suggestion that Thunderbolt replaces the mini-display port. Just as monitors start to come with mini-display port they switch to a new port type with zero support?

Re:Not fiber?

[thomasdz]

Don't worry... they'll have an adapter / converter cable.... you'll have a Y cable and one part of the Y will be mini-display port and the other part will be LightPeak data transfer

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even more bizarre is the suggestion that Thunderbolt replaces the mini-display port. Just as monitors start to come with mini-display port they switch to a new port type with zero support?

if i recall... they were also accused of the very same thing with usb on the original iMac in 1998. that really turned out dud decision... lol

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

What, for $29.95 at the Apple store? I can't wait for the lickable convenience!

Re:Not fiber?

[MyCookie]

It combines them.

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

An Apple A Day Keeps the Doctor Away, But Fiber Keeps You Regular?

I know what I find tastier: my RDA of irony.

Re:Not fiber?

[dagamer34]

Because fiber cables cost more than copper ones? I doubt USB 3.0 is dead, considering Light Peak is protocol-agnostic, it's just a way to send lots of data over a pipe. It doesn't define what that data is like USB or FireWire is. Nice thing is you should be able to get a port replicator that will have whatever port you want, possibly including USB 3.0.

Re:Not fiber?

[TheRaven64]

Monitors come with mini displayport? I've not seen any. I've not seen many that come with full-sized displayport and even the Apple ones don't use mini displayport, meaning that, if you buy one of the current generation Apple laptops, it is not possible to plug it into any display without an adaptor. And, of course, none of these adaptors are standard anymore, they're all $20 extra...

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not... depending on the output from a fiber optic cable, can you expect Joe Sixpack or his 4 year old to not look down the cable?

There is a reason there are signs in a machine room that say, "Do not look down fiber optic cable with remaining eye."

Re:Not fiber?

[node 3]

Apple has only one display, and that display has only a Mini DisplayPort connector.

Well, two if you count the 27" iMac, which can be used as a display, and that too has only MDP.

Re:Not fiber?

[node 3]

Light Peak *is* only copper, right now. Light Peak over fiber is still at least a year off.

Re:Not fiber?

[keytoe]

if i recall... they were also accused of the very same thing with usb on the original iMac in 1998. that really turned out dud decision...

I have a box full of various adapters that Apple forces me to buy every time they change display interconnect to the 'next best thing'. Between the computers changing ports and the display manufacturers trying to keep up, the permutations can become large. Those adapters are $25 each from Apple.

On the other hand, I can still plug in the same USB devices I did from 1998.

People have a legitimate gripe here.

Re:Not fiber?

[JPRelph]

I've not seen many that come with full-sized displayport and even the Apple ones don't use mini displayport... And, of course, none of these adaptors are standard anymore, they're all $20 extra...

The Apple Cinema Displays *do* use Mini DisplayPort, and it's been officially brought into the standard now, so isn't just an Apple only port. There's also quite a few laptops out there using it, from Dell, Toshiba HP... The Wikipedia page for Mini DisplayPort has a list of a few.

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've not seen many that come with full-sized displayport and even the Apple ones don't use mini displayport, meaning that, if you buy one of the current generation Apple laptops, it is not possible to plug it into any display without an adaptor. And, of course, none of these adaptors are standard anymore, they're all $20 extra...

Just to make things clear: Is a cable with a USB plug on one end and a mini-USB plug on the other an "adaptor"?

Re:Not fiber?

[itsdapead]

Monitors come with mini displayport? I've not seen many that come with full-sized displayport and even the Apple ones don't use mini displayport,

Displayport is showing up on lots of monitors (mainly higher end ones) including models from Dell and HP. This dealer lists 21 models. I have a HP with DisplayPort, and a (passive) MiniDP-to-full DP cable cost me £4.

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm very disappointed that Apple chose the copper variant of Light Peak and not the fiber version. You can guess why!

Look what I found in your trash: "I'm very disappointed that Apple chose the fiber variant of Light Peak and not the copper version. You can guess why!"

Re:Not fiber?

[vlm]

There is a reason there are signs in a machine room that say, "Do not look down fiber optic cable with remaining eye."

I'm not sure if FDDI GBIC escon or any other "end user-ish" fiber system has ever been sold thats not eye safe.

Now telco gear, some of that is not to be fooled with, but then again you're probably violating several laws by messing with ma bells stuff.

Can anyone out there think of a non-eye safe end user-ish optical transport thats been commercially available (not vaporware?)

Re:Not fiber?

[BitZtream]

On the other hand, I can still plug in the same USB devices I did from 1998.

The irony is that Apple is the reason your using those USB devices in the first place.

Re:Not fiber?

[BitZtream]

It doesn't define what that data is like USB or FireWire is.

So you don't understand how technology works I see.

USB and Firewire are just data channels. USB devices respond in well defined ways that allow generic support for them. So does firewire ... and so does Lightpeak.

You're confusing the USB protocol stack with the Lightpeak wire transfer protocol. You're comparing Apples to the ground the tree grows in.

Re:Not fiber?

[Graham J - XVI]

I guess you'll like Light Peak then, you'll only need one port to connect all manner of devices. Soon the norm will be a breakout box that plugs into any LP port - one adapter for everything. Ever desk will have a LP breakout box so there'll only be one wire to connect. Sweet.

Re:Not fiber?

[DurendalMac]

True, but he at least has the right idea. LP can carry any protocol, so as long as you have a way to physically convert the connector at the other end, you can adapt Lightpeak to just about anything.

Re:Not fiber?

[itsenrique]

I think this is different though. PS2 was limited in usefulness and USB filled a gap for serial interfaces. Apple has switched up the monitor out since VGA at least 4 different times. WHY NOT JUST GIVE US HDMI OUT WITH A $2,000 LAPTOP?! There, I said it.

Re:Not fiber?

[itsdapead]

I have a box full of various adapters that Apple forces me to buy every time they change display interconnect to the 'next best thing'.

Yeah, its a pain, and I do miss the PowerBook G4 and 1st Gen MacBook Pro with the full-size DVI port - but on the other hand, people do like their laptops small and their batteries big, but the industry keeps coming out with massive connectors. Look at a teardown of a 13" MacBook Pro and you'll see how the size of the circuit board is determined by the row of connectors down one side, something that's only going to get more ridiculous as more and more of the circuitry is moved to the processor die and the chip count reduces.

...and what interface do you want? If you plug into data projectors you'll need VGA. Some monitors need DVI, newer ones need HDMI. Its not Apple's fault that the VGA cable refused to die and was never completely replaced by DVI. Should Apple build big clunky laptops with 3 big clunky video ports? And apple are far from the worst offenders when it comes to gouging people for video cables: I'm still walking funny from the time I needed a DVI-to-HDMI cable in a hurry and was forced to buy one on the high street (it cost a lot more than an Apple DVI adaptor).

Re:Not fiber?

[pandrijeczko]

...and Adolf Hitler is the reason why I own a trusty & reliable Volkswagen Passat car.

Your point is what precisely?

Re:Not fiber?

[jo_ham]

That's what suggests these images are faked to me. It just seems like a crazy move, especially after 1) standardising the mini-displayport and making it royalty free and 2) releasing a whole line of LCD panels with cabling specifically designed to mate to a laptop - mini-displayport, magsafe connector supplying power from the screen, USB etc.

Re:Not fiber?

[cwebster]

The images are all allegedly of the 13" model where space is a premium and they combined the ports to save space. I imagine the 15" and 17" will have separate mini-display ports and thunderbolt/lightpeak ports.

Re:Not fiber?

[Antisyzygy]

Having worked at Best Buy in the past I can tell you I have personally received an 80 percent discount on all cables and adapters while I worked there. That's where they make the money. You are better off going to a Microcenter or ordering online.

Re:Not fiber?

[zippthorne]

Or $5 each from monoprice....

Re:Not fiber?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because HDMI can't do VGA.

With mini display port they can support

VGA
DVI
HDMI
Display Port

all through a single connector.

Re:Not fiber?

[Mattsson]

This is not the same thing at all.
If they keep the Displayport but remove all USB and Firewire in favour of Light peak, then it would be the same thing. If you want to connect a scanner, printer, keyboard or mouse, it has to be a Light peak version of the device.

Forcing people to use their Light peak ports as a monitor port instead of a device connector is not a good way to make Light peak devices available.

Re:Not fiber?

[Vectormatic]

i might be missing something, but i can replace all instance of LP/lightpeak in your post with "copper wire" and it still makes the same amount of sense.

Is lightpeak just copper wire with an interface chip driving it which can be programmed to handle any protocol? Sounds like an awesome way to confuse the fuck out of consumers.

Buy HPs new lightjet printer, equiped with Lightpeak technology!*

*HP proprietary LP protocol libraries needed, only available on HP sold computer systems

Re:My lunch break is almost over....

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Will someone please post some Apple Troll comments?

Come one! Pictures of Gay Pride parades with the rainbow - just like Apple's rainbow logo - coincidence? I think not!

Come on! Apple Trolls are the most entertaining!

Sit tight, the Android people will be here soon.

Another Apple Prototype Left in a Bar

[Anonymous Coward]

Details of the new MacBook Pro and iPad become public after an Apple employee left prototypes of the new devices in a San Francisco bar.

Steffann, a bar tender at The Horny Rainbow found the prototypes while cleaning up a puddle of semen, urine, and blood beneath the bar's glory hole.

Need to drop the 13" Pro

[MyCookie]

...and it's features to the non-Pro. I'm not going to pay for a 13" with a 1200x800 screen when it costs me any more than $1000. This one doesn't even have switchable graphics.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention an anemic dual core processor when quad core or better should be the norm.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people like the 13" models. I have one from the current generation, and it was about $600 cheaper than the next-step-up 15" version.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

If you cared about price and not just image, you wouldn't be considering Apple in the first place.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I work, we just dock these into a 24 inch monitor. Seems to work okay imo even though I'd rather be on a PC.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is anemic about a dual-core? It's still more than 99% of the population needs.

My main desktop rig is a single core athlon (with 4gb ram) and I have no intention of upgrading anytime soon. My laptop is a 2008 MacBook with a 2.4ghz c2d and 4gb ram, again, I'm not upgrading for at least a few more years.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[AdrianKemp]

You might not, but I an 7 other people I know did. Some of us like laptops that actually fit in your lap but still have good specs.

You're right though, apple should drop the model because you don't personally want to buy it.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

My main desktop rig

Oh, god a PC ricer. Those are the only idiots who call their computers "rigs". Let me guess, you have tri-color LED fans to illuminate the case and some gaudy, mass-produced case decal that shows how "original" you are?

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, I have it a bone-stock, gutted Dell Dimension 2400 case. Thanks for playing.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[radl33t]

Way to make a non-point. The dual-core will need to be upgraded sooner than the quad core. so "Again" said user would delay upgrading longer. As are your apparent plans. Or right, I forgot we're using your arbitrary definitions of adequate performance.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Really disappointed in the features of the MacBook Pro. I don't mind a 13" but I do mind a ~$1000 or more price tag on a meager resolution of 1200x800. I literally just today ordered a 14" (with a better resolution naturally) lenovo ideapad with a stand-alone graphics card (mbpro has integrated intel), the i5 480m (considerably faster than the MBPro i5), it has the macbook style keyboard, 5hrs of battery life, weighs less than 4 pounds, is less than an inch thick, and cost me just under $650 free shipping plus tax. I do a lot of music work and perform live at shows and parties with my laptop and many other peripherals, so 4 usb ports helps too. It's got more HDD space and its memory is easily upgradable to 8gb. It's really disappointing that what is considered the music and art industry choice of computer is so far below par of current laptops and so far above standard price.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[TheRaven64]

Not to mention the fact that the 'mobile' quad core chips from Intel use 45W, while the dual core ones use 18-35W. You may be able to fit one into the 17" MBP without having power and heat problems, but there's no chance of getting one in the 13" model. Are there any 13" laptops with a quad-core processor? If so, I expect that they're quite a bit thicker, or have a very short battery life.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

that's just it though.. these specs suck

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[TheRaven64]

Why did you buy the 13" MBP instead of the 13" MB? His point is that the specs are almost the same, but the MBP costs significantly more.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[countertrolling]

I don't know... Some of us like having BSD* on the desktop

*I can't believe it's not unix

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Err, the MBPro has integrated Intel AND a 330M. not the fastest nVidia chip, but, it's certainly NOT a crappy integrated Intel GPU.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[binary paladin]

There are always tradeoffs in the mobile world. Quad core processors use more power, period.

One of these days hardware Nazis will get it that MOST users would rather have more battery life than a quad core processor. MOST users will take more battery life over powerful graphics. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

You saved a whole $600 dollars on your overpriced shiny? Wow, what a deal... Sign me up for 3!!!

I hate it when I hear the mac fanbois spew stuff like this. You didnt get a good deal, you got RIPPED off.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

duh.. you need moar coars to run all those bloated non-native half-interpreted/VM'd 'binaries' out there nowadays.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Plastic?

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

and I suppose you're an apple riche-boy wanna-be-cool type who must have the shiny gaudy apple styling for his machine?

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[JonJ]

One of these days hardware Nazis will get it that MOST users would rather have more battery life than a quad core processor. MOST users will take more battery life over powerful graphics. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Gamers still seriously believe that they're not a niche.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[AdrianKemp]

The pro weighs less
The pro is smaller but has the same screen size and keyboard
The black border around the screen makes it look much better, and at night doesn't distract you from the actual screen.
The pro has an SD slot and firewire (though I don't care about the firewire)
The pro has a backlit keyboard (very important)
The pro can take a better chip, and more memory (important, since I need the 8GB of ram for my 2 virtual machines)
The pro has better sounding speakers (they may well be the same, it may just be the aluminum case that muffles them less/more to make it sound better)
The pro has an aluminum shell instead of bullshit plastic (probably the single most important thing)

Other than those reasons, I suppose they are the same. As it happens, those features are worth well more than the $200 extra that it costs.

If they made the standard MB have all of those features, I would buy it in a heartbeat. It would also cost $200 more.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Firewire.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

The 13" MBP gets you the following over the White MB:

1) Backlit Keyboard
2) LED Backlit Screen
3) Faster CPU
4) Aluminum Unibody
5) Glass Multitouch Touchpad
6) Firewire 800
7) Twice the battery life.
8) SD Card Reader

That's easily worth the additional $200.00

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an Alienware m11xR2 late last year for about $1200. Core i7, 4GB RAM, 320GB 7200rpm drive, switchable graphics (GT335M vs GT330M that's in my MBP 17"), HDMI out, 1366x768, and no eject key on the keyboard. ;) Very portable and packs considerable punch with very good battery life for the spec. I even find Windows 7 satisfactory.

The build quality isn't up to Apple's standard. The screen isn't edge to edge, and I do miss the wonderful glass trackpad of my MBP when I use any other computer. But I also don't have to remember a witch's brew of keyboard combinations to perform common document/code navigation like forward delete, page up/down, home/end, etc. And I'll never understand the reasoning for the placement of an eject key on the keyboard...

Point is, I think the parent has a valid point. On value, Apple's specs are often poor. Don't get me wrong, I think they're very good laptops in many respects and do deserve a premium for features that include OS X, screen quality, multitouch trackpad, and general build quality. It's just that after using the m11xR2 for six months and the 17" MBP for the last two, I think the m11xR2 is a better value. It'd be especially so compared to the 13" MBP.

I'd like to see Apple spec out their new line of MBP accordingly: SSD, eSATA, USB 3.0, HDMI, BD drive (though optical media doesn't matter to me), full-sized keyboard for 17" model, SD card reader on 17". If they offered that, they're atop the leaderboard. My feeling is that Apple has skewed too far toward content consumption in their specs; the touchscreen phenomena from the iPhone/iPad is probably to blame for that. There's no other explanation for ditching a forward delete key in favor of a fucking eject key. I believe the 17" should be better equipped for coders, writers, and content producers. I can get CD/DVD/BD playback, photo viewing, and web browsing much cheaper and just as good elsewhere. Move the speakers (who ever bought a laptop for its speakers' audio reproduction?), increase the keyboard to something fuller, put the eject button on the side next to the optical drive, and get with the program and offer HDMI without the need for a separate dongle. Alas, I'm probably wishing for a miracle.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Aluminium, baby.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Mac users are 10 times worse than PC ricers.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[BitZtream]

I can't believe it's not unix

I'm not sure if I just missed the joke but uhm, you do realize that OS X was certified as an official UNIX ... RIGHT?

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost the same specs but the MBP costs significantly more? Well, let's check the facts: The MacBook starts in Apple's online store at $999, while the MacBook Pro 13" starts at $1199. So that's $200 more. For that, you get
* the same 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, the same display size/resolution, the same graphics processor
* 4GB of RAM instead of 2GB
* an SD card slot
* a Firewire 800 port
* a backlit keyboard
* a cool metal-and-class casing (some people might not care, for some this might be a major selling point :)
* a weight reduction from 4.7 pound to 4.5 (granted, not much, but when you lug it around all day, every bit helps. also, see previous item)
* a slightly thiner, smaller frame (again, see previous two items)

Does this justify the price increment of $200 ? Well, I think this really depend on your needs, but I certainly can see why some people are willing to spend this.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[DurendalMac]

You do realize that we're talking about laptops, right? Quad core Intel mobile chips have a 45w-55w TDP. Dual core Intel mobile chips tend to top out at 35w. You'd have a pretty bulky and ugly 13" laptop if you tried to shoehorn a quad into it with proper cooling and a big enough battery to run it for a time comparable to the current 13" Macbook Pro. "Or better"? Right. Show me a laptop with a 6+ core CPU in it that isn't a hideous monstrosity with a ten pound power brick.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[DurendalMac]

Trollface.jpg.bmp.exe. Go back to /g/.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[hairyfeet]

But why not let them have both and thus give them more value for their $$$$? Both AMD and Intel now have the ability to shut down cores when not in use, hell the new AMD Bulldozers can even shut down portions of the GPU when not needed to drop power usage even lower. This lets you have the power when you need it (they could even set it up so it only ran on outlet if they really wanted to be anal about it) and the battery life when you don't.

So I have to agree with the other poster that using dual cores now just seems stupid. You are cutting down on the amount of jobs the PC can do and when you figure in the Apple premium paying more for a dual just doesn't make sense, not when you can buy nice quad laptops starting at around $700.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

at least you're consistent.. my case is some inwin tower from 1998 with fans held in by tape so I guess I'm the opposite of bling. beige trash.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

I used my old white MB four years, and I expect my new MBP to last as least that long. Considering that, the 150 € or so price difference between the two seem quite acceptable: The 13'' MBP has more RAM as standard, a SD slot the white MB doesn't have, and it's made from aluminum and glass, which feels so much better than plastic. (And I think the screen panel is of higher quality, not sure on that one though.)

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

The pro has an SD slot and firewire (though I don't care about the firewire)
The MBP 17 does not come with SD slot. It has the ExpressCard slot instead.

The pro has better sounding speakers (they may well be the same, it may just be the aluminum case that muffles them less/more to make it sound better)

Who ever bought a laptop for its high fidelity audio reproduction? FWIW, my Alienware m11xR2 sounds richer and warmer than my MBP 17.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did you buy the 13" MBP instead of the 13" MB? His point is that the specs are almost the same, but the MBP costs significantly more.

The aluminum chassis and backlit keyboard were enough to make me spend the extra money.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did you buy the 13" MBP instead of the 13" MB? His point is that the specs are almost the same, but the MBP costs significantly more.

max of 4GB of RAM on non-pro (biggest issue for me), non-unibody and non-metal enclosure, and the SD card slot

putting the i5 in the laptop makes it worth my while rather than getting a mac mini to get by

(yes, I feel having at least one mac with 4GB+ of RAM is worth my money even knowing the prices of alternatives)

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[MMC Monster]

I bought an aluminum macbook during the very small window when it was available. As far as computers go, that's been my smartest decision ever.

The surface is so resistant that when I upgrade, I'll go to a macbook pro just to get the same surface (plus backlit keyboard -- man, I wish I had that).

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

One of these days hardware Nazis will get it that MOST users would rather have more battery life than a quad core processor. MOST users will take more battery life over powerful graphics. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Gamers still seriously believe that they're not a niche.

Funny thing is, most laptop gamers would probably be better off with a dual core processor. Games don't utilize quad cores very well (perhaps not suprising since the last time I saw Steam stats the average PC still had less than 2 cores), so 2 faster cores are better for most games than 4 slower ones (and that's a tradeoff you have to make, unless you want to buy one of the ridiculous boat anchor laptops with desktop CPUs and GPUs which eat their batteries in about a millisecond). It's not quite as harsh a tradeoff as it might be if you buy Intel's i7 quad core notebook CPUs, due to their turbo mode allowing 2 active cores to run a lot faster than when all 4 are active, but it's still there.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally went with the 13" MacBook air, myself. 1299 and it's like a desktop on my lap and light as hell. I was laughing about it til I tried it... Flash (ssd) disk makes it scream and the battery lasts as long if not longer than a netbook. That being said, for lax browsing on the go I prefer my iPad.

Oy

[tool462]

Can we stop calling them leaks and start calling them press releases? Nobody is fooled by this anymore.

Re:Oy

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Can we stop calling them leaks and start calling them press releases? Nobody is fooled by this anymore.

If Gizmodo is willing to pay several grand for a stolen phone, I don't think we can safely assume it's just marketing.

Re:Oy

[Anonymous Coward]

No thats what you call successful marketing.

Re:Oy

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

No thats what you call successful marketing.

Yeah, for Gizmodo.

Re:Oy

[Anonymous Coward]

And wikileaks are also just press releases from the US government.

Re:Oy

[BitZtream]

Not really, that stunt and their little stunt fucking with displays at a tradeshow were the two things that resulted in me no longer ever visiting Gizmodo. I have no need for websites run by people who are clearly douche bags that still act like 15 year olds. I'm not 15 anymore, that shit isn't cool anymore either.

So ... if by successful you mean lost a 'unique visitor'/ad revenue, then yes it was successful, but by my definition it was not in anyway. I don't like hoodlums, which is all they are.

Re:Oy

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I get your point, but I'd be truly surprised if they didn't have a huge surge in income as a result of that little escapade.

Leaks

[Thyamine]

Of course I read earlier today that there were rumors that it was being pushed back a month or two. Everyone likes rumors because they seem illicit. You weren't supposed to know that! Much sexier than an official announcement of some kind.

power icon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's the marketing dipstick that decided to demarcate the lightpeakthunderboltwhatever port with the most recognizable symbol for power worldwide, the lightningbolt? Cause that's not gonna be confusing as hell for the general audience.

Re:power icon?

[sexconker]

Who's the marketing dipstick that decided to demarcate the lightpeakthunderboltwhatever port with the most recognizable symbol for power worldwide, the lightningbolt? Cause that's not gonna be confusing as hell for the general audience.

The most recognizable symbol for power is the I/O symbol.

Either represented as I/O or as a nearly-complete circle with a I at the top. Think C- and rotate it counter-clockwise 90 degrees).

This symbol represents an open and and closed circuit.
Unfortunately, a lot of devices will incorrectly have "O" (the completed circuit) be off, because, you know, it's an O, and "off" starts with the letter "O"!
And I've seen plenty of devices that have a button with "I / C-" on it, mixing the dual-symbol sign (typically used for switches that toggle or have some throw), and the single-symbol sign (typically used for momentary switches/buttons).

So basically, even though people fuck it up, O/I or C- is still the universal symbol for electrical power. It's related to the core idea of electrical flow.
Lightning bolts are warning signs for the dumbest of the dumb.

No USB 3?

[Tumbleweed]

"Fuck them. Fuck them up their stupid asses."
- Steve Jobs (may have been Jason Mewes)

Re:No USB 3?

[binary paladin]

It's got Light Peak on it (or Thunderbolt) so that's mostly irrelevant. eSATA, USB3, Firewire 1600 or whatever can all be hooked up through Thunderbolt which is really what makes this release interesting.

Re:No USB 3?

[Tumbleweed]

It's got Light Peak on it (or Thunderbolt) so that's mostly irrelevant. eSATA, USB3, Firewire 1600 or whatever can all be hooked up through Thunderbolt which is really what makes this release interesting.

Where is this info about Light Peak being able to do eSATA or USB 3 or Firewire coming from?

Re:No USB 3?

[fgodfrey]

Light Peak is 4 lanes of PCI Express Gen 2 (or, at least, that's what Intel demo'd at IDF 2009) *or* Display Port. So, fundamentally, it should be able to do pretty much anything out the other end that you can run across PCIe, which includes SATA and USB, etc.

While I couldn't really say for sure from the picture, other people are saying copper-only for Thunderbolt, which, if true, is a major disappointment.

Re:No USB 3?

[Tumbleweed]

Light Peak is 4 lanes of PCI Express Gen 2 (or, at least, that's what Intel demo'd at IDF 2009) *or* Display Port. So, fundamentally, it should be able to do pretty much anything out the other end that you can run across PCIe, which includes SATA and USB, etc.

While I couldn't really say for sure from the picture, other people are saying copper-only for Thunderbolt, which, if true, is a major disappointment.

Whether it's got the bandwidth for it isn't the issue. The issue is - is it compatible? Can you stick a USB 3 device into this port and have it work? There are lots of USB 3 devices (I have multiple USB 3 devices at home). Light Peak itself has no backward comptability with anything less someone goes to the effort to make it so, and I've not seen any official announcements about that. I think Light Peak sounds very interesting, but I still want USB 3 compatability, so I can use USB 3 and USB 2 devices. Those devices will be around for YEARS. Light Peak is not a replacement for USB (of any version) at this time.

Re:No USB 3?

[pandrijeczko]

Here's a clue:

You know when you're relaxing in the bath when, all of a sudden, those bubbles rise to the surface of the water and pop, giving off a smell of cooking cabbage? Well it's from the same place as those bubbles.

Re:No USB 3?

[serviscope_minor]

What kool aid are you drinking?

So tell me, how many external hdds or cameras are there that plug into that port?

It is entirely "relevent" that there is no USB3 because other USB3 stuff exists, and other light peak stuff does not yet.

Re:No USB 3?

[Antisyzygy]

Interesting its called "Light Peak" but is not fiber optic. Sounds like the almost dead Firewire to me.

Enough Already

[Anonymous Coward]

We get it, Apple = latest and greatest hardware at a premium cost because they're greedy. Got it. In order to compete with Microsoft, and other hardware companies they must charge more. And lastly, we must create hype around our product to rev up initials sales to Geeks, Know-it-alls, and Coffee drinking college students.

They don't need to "leak" the information this way any longer. Folks that understand what they're getting will buy out of necessity. If they're buying due to hype, then
Wintel based companies need to rethink their strategies.

Ok Done Trolling now, Carry on.

Good.

[crow]

Copper cables and connectors are cheap. Much cheaper than optical. The advantages of optical would only be used by a very tiny portion of the market.

I also wonder if the copper version carries power like USB does?

Re:Who cares....

[Anonymous Coward]

Still Apple proprietary hardware, lack of software, tiny market share an lack of how to implement a vision.

Speaking of 'lack of vision', you haven't seen the bloody thing, yet. Being righteous doesn't mean being right.

In other news

[GameboyRMH]

Specs of the Shenhuan SZ-2 laptop were leaked today, and the launch event for a novelty illuminated party hat is to be held on March 2nd.

I hope now the Apple fanboys can understand how little I care. And this is supposed to be news for nerds? I swear if Jalopnik was run like Slashdot, they'd have stories about delivery vans and soccer mom wagons.

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

When will whiny bitches like you realize that you can filter the stories.

Re:In other news

[GameboyRMH]

How can I filter out useless Apple fanboy fapping material without filtering out other potentially interesting Apple-related news?

Re:In other news

[sexconker]

When will whiny bitches like you realize that you can filter the stories.

When will apologists like you realize that, no, you in fact cannot.
Since the redesign there is no way for me to filter Idle. You can filter the WORD Idle, but does that mean any stories with "Idle" in TFS get filtered? TFH? Nobody knows. I don't want to risk filtering a story about idle CPU time just because it has the word "idle" in it. And even when I do filter Idle, I still get Idle stories showing up. It doesn't work.

Since the redesign, there is no way for me to get the mainpage to show the full summary (instead of just the headline) for all stories.
  - This is a problem because it requires an initial click to read TFS.
  - This is also a problem because if I middle click the link, my new tab opens up to the slashdot main page, NOT the story I wanted.

Prior to the redsign, many options simply didn't work.
After the redesign, many options simply don't work.

Slashdot is broken. And the people who care get shat on whenever they say something about it.
Mod me offtopic, but until there's an actual place where legitimate complaints and concerns will get actual attention, this place is just as apt as any.

Re:In other news

[Duradin]

How would you get your hate-on without all the Apple fanboy articles?

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

They also have this filter called a brain. A brain works by seeing articles it doesn't like and ignoring them. Now trolls like you and the grand parent have defective brains because when you see a story you hate you not only read it you comment in it.

USB Ports

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess... only 2 USB ports, right beside each other again? I hate this design

Re:USB Ports

[v1]

Let me guess... only 2 USB ports, right beside each other again? I hate this design

Until you try to plug in one of those 2.5" external usb-only drives that comes with the "Y" dual-usb cable for more power, and find the cord is way too short to plug into the left and right USB ports at the same time. (an issue I have ran into repeatedly with my 15" mbp)

Re:USB Ports

[Rockoon]

Whats wrong with two at the corner, one on each edge? This design would seem to be the most accommodating. Better still, both back corners could be this way, so that there are 2 USB's on the back (opposite sides) as well as 1 USB for each of the left and right sides.

If I was designing a laptop, thats what I would do. Maybe nobody but me sees the value in 4 USB ports in an age where just about every peripheral can be gotten with a USB interface (hard drives, cd/dvd, mouse, sound cards, headsets, compact flash readers, webcams, ethernet ports, phones and MP3 players,...)

Re:USB Ports

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe nobody but me sees the value in 4 USB ports in an age where just about every peripheral can be gotten with a USB interface (hard drives, cd/dvd, mouse, sound cards, headsets, compact flash readers, webcams, ethernet ports, phones and MP3 players,...)

Because this is 2011?
- hard drives, okay for low speed (that includes USB flash drives), but there's a FireWire 800 port built-in that's much faster
- phones/MP3 players, okay
- compact flash readers, they now offer SD card readers built-in although you might want to use other formats
- mouse, built-in trackpad but okay I can see the need, I wouldn't want to use a trackpad for everything
- CD/DVD, what's the point if the laptop already has one built-in? (you got a point for the MacBook Air but even so, they have Remote Disk)
- sound cards, built-in inputs and outputs
- headsets, yes some are USB but most are still using 1/8" jacks
- webcams, built-in
- ethernet ports, there's one built-in

If you really need that many USB ports, connect a single cable that goes to a hub. There's a reason for having four USB ports on a Mac mini, not so much on a laptop. The more stuff you connect to a laptop, the less portable it becomes.

Re:USB Ports

[Rockoon]

- hard drives, okay for low speed (that includes USB flash drives), but there's a FireWire 800 port built-in that's much faster

FireWire is irrelevant if all my devices are USB.

- sound cards, built-in inputs and outputs

..and do those offer 24-bit 192khz with superb SNR like my E-MU 404 USB soundboard? How about a MIDI port.. oh it doesnt even have that, so I need a USB midi controller anyways? Yeah...

- headsets, yes some are USB but most are still using 1/8" jacks

1/8" Wireless? Yeah.. not.

webcams, built-in

..so not as good as the one I already have thats USB?

ethernet ports, there's one built-in

So only one? Yeah.

Re:USB Ports

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to then run traces on the PCB to two completely different places instead of just one place. These data lines have the potential to interfere with other components. For instance if a data bus runs under a heat sink it can turn that heat sink in to an antenna. Having the USB ports next to each other greatly simplifies the motherboard design.

Re:USB Ports

[v1]

Based just on external ports I'd tend to agree with you. But modern computers tend to use USB for internal modules also.

- bluetooth
- SD card reader
- camera
- IR sensor
- built-in trackpad, keyboard
- ambient light sensors

And other things. So USB tends to be scattered around on the motherboard anyway. These connectors tend to be on the edge of the board near the part they connect to, wherever that happens to be placed. (thermisters and fans are usually direct analog though because they interface with the firmware more directly, and not usually sound either tho I don't know why)

Re:USB Ports

[painandgreed]

Because if you are actually using that many peripherals with your laptop at the same time, using a USB hub won't be any more trouble or you bought the wrong thing and really need a desktop.

Re:USB Ports

[thetoadwarrior]

Most laptops come with 3 USB ports. Two beside each other and one on the other side. I'd hardly call missing the one on the other side a big deal especially when you can use some mac devices and not lose a USB port like the keyboard which will actually give you an extra USB port.

Re:USB Ports

[Rockoon]

Because if you are actually using that many peripherals with your laptop at the same time..

More than 2? You are arguing that 2 USB ports is enough.
External HD + Mouse .. so no other peripherals at all.. no connecting your MP3 player or synching your phone.. no thumb drive.. none of those other devices.. zero.. oh, I should disconnect one of those two? really?

Re:USB Ports

[painandgreed]

zero.. oh, I should disconnect one of those two? really?

Yep, that's pretty much it. Your workflow is unusual enough that it's not worth troubling everybody else with the cost and weight of more ports when you could just carry along a four port USB hub.I mean you are already carrying around a laptop, externa HD w/cable, mouse, and then other devices. Does it really hurt to just throw in a small USB hub too? (which is probably smaller than your MP3 player) The figure I've heard before is 80/20. The make their products work with the 80% of people and work well. The other 20% are left to deal. Now 20% is by no means rare, but not enough of a demand to force their needs on the other 80%. Then there is always the chance that the 20% really don't know what they want and in your case would switch to complaining about the cost, weight and size of a Mac Book if they all had four USB ports.

Personally, I carry around a wireless USB mouse and a thumb drive. I do digital photography on location. iPhone gets pugged into the wall instead of the laptop because it normally syncs with my desktop and gets confused when I plug it into my laptop. (I'm in the 20% there I think.) I purposely don't carry around an external HD or other devices simply because I don't want to carry around extra shit. I've got enough stuff in my bag especially on overseas flight that I've learned every ounce counts. I just buckle down before I leave and make sure I have the space on my internal HD or upgrade to a larger one. I can sympathize with your plight, but I can't say you are correct.

"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[supersloshy]

Light Peak looks like it will be called Thunderbolt.

If that seriously is the final name for Light Peak, then I don't quite agree with their decision. What exactly does it have to do with thunder or bolts? "Thunderbolt port" sounds more like innuendo than an actual port you'd use, as opposed to "Light Peak port". At least "Light Peak" gave me a vague idea of how the tech works by the name alone, whereas Thunderbolt just sounds completely unrelated to the technology.

I swear, marketing comes up with the worst names for everything these days. "Xfinity" et al.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[supersloshy]

...and now I just read the article and it seems that "Thunderbolt" is just a variant of Light Peak. Not the "final name", hopefully.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[JPRelph]

...At least "Light Peak" gave me a vague idea of how the tech works by the name alone, whereas Thunderbolt just sounds completely unrelated to the technology.

It's worth bearing in mind that the version of Light Peak that we're likely to see tomorrow, is probably going to be copper-based rather than optical, so Light Peak would probably be just as unrelated as Thunderbolt

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[AdrianKemp]

In fairness if they are in fact (as it appears) going with a copper variant of light peak, then light peak isn't exactly an appropriate name either.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I'd agree, but I'm trying to find the extinguisher. The firewire port on my MacBook is acting up again.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[mini me]

Thunderbolt is apparently a copper interconnect, as opposed to Fibre, which the name Light Peak seems to imply. For that reason, I feel they made the right decision not making reference to light and the ties between thunderbolts and lightning does make some sense in this case.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[Anonymous Coward]

If the firewire port puts out fire, does the thunderbolt port deafen you?

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[hawk]

>What exactly does it have to do with thunder or bolts?

It's as new convenient way to zap your ram. :)

hawk

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[Antisyzygy]

Thor disagrees with you.

Re:"Thunderbolt"? Bleh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus I find the word Thunderbolt confusing. There's a lightning bolt and the sound of thunder... what's a thunderbolt?

yippie

[retech]

yet another proprietary protocol. I'm so happy to see the widespread adoption of MDP has worked out. But I know this will satisfy Job's fantasy of one port to rule them all. I just cannot imagine the price tag on those devices that will be covered under that "all". (currently zero)

Re:yippie

[betterunixthanunix]

It is not an attempt to create one port to rule them all; it is an attempt to keep Apple computers separate from every other PC out there. You know, so that people will continue to think that a Mac is something different than a PC.

Re:yippie

[v1]

yet another proprietary protocol.

I thought Apple was working with Intel on this? At what point between "only one person has it" and "everyone has it" does it cease to be labelled "proprietary"? I thought that happened when it hit 2.

Re:yippie

[binary paladin]

This is a venture with Intel—and they're not the only two companies involved. Light Peak isn't going to be Apple specific for very long and it's as "proprietary" as USB.

This is all about "1 port to rule them all" and, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would have a problem with that. I'd like to have 6 ports on my laptop that could be hooked up to ANYTHING without compromise. Suddenly I can hook up a couple more monitors to my laptop or use a high speed external drive or whatever. Or even better, have a hub where, when I put my laptop down at the desk I connect ONE port and all is right in the world.

Intel Graphix

[WorkingDead]

I think the big thing in this release is that they went with Intel graphics on their 13" line. Compared to the current nvidia 320M, the old generation may preform better than the new release. Does this kill gaming on the 13" MBP?

MBA

[jimmerz28]

Phew I just ordered a Macbook Air I got scared they were just going to upgrade it within a few weeks. At least it'll be a few months now!

Re:MBA

[pandrijeczko]

Wouldn't it just be cheaper for you to spend a few hours in a gym in order to build up enough muscular stamina so that you can lift a slightly heavier, but cheaper and more functional laptop with those "important extras" like an optical drive & an Ethernet port?

The only reason I can ever come up with where I'd pay a premium price for a Macbook Air is if I was in the terminal phases of some wasting disease and simply couldn't lift anything heavier.

Re:MBA

[binary paladin]

*rolls eyes* Just because YOU think an optical drive is an "important extra" doesn't mean it is to everyone. I was hoping Apple would do away with those across the pro line and replace it with something that's ACTUALLY an important extra like additional mass storage or, I don't know, more battery. I don't even care.

For the once a month (if that) that I use my optical drive I can just use an external and use that space for something that matters on a day to day basis (like... more battery).

On top of that, Light Peak is gonna mean that doesn't really matter anymore. Ethernet? USB? Firewire? Display? eSATA? It'll all go through Light Peak at some point. I figure about the time we see a bump to the 100Gbps optical variant, that's gonna be the end for most of the other ports on Macs.

Re:MBA

[pandrijeczko]

Okay, so in other words, Light Peak is designed for people too stupid to be able to work out what cable plugs into what socket on the computer - fair enough, it takes all types to make a (computer using) world.

I may only be a techie engineering type but even I know the first rule of marketing is "If you give it a smart sounding name, some suckers will stump up the money for it as an upgrade, even if it's no better than what they upgraded from."

You remind me of the proud mother stood next to the roadside watching her soldier son march past with his regiment, who turns to the lady stood next to her and, pointing to her son, says:
"Look, that' s my son - and they're all out of step with the marching music except him."

Clearly, by virtue of the fact that most PCs come with some sort of optical drive still, then they are considered by most to still be of use. ...and I *DID* notice that you didn't even respond to my comment about the inanely stupid design decision regarding no Ethernet port.

Re:MBA

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's designed for people who like the idea of having flexible ports. Need another monitor? There's another port there! Don't need a monitor but want another hard drive plugged in? There's another port there! SSHing into the machine and fancy hooking up a ton of hard drives to make a bunch of backups? Unplug the monitor and plug a hard drive into it! Got two graphics outs but only use one monitor? No problem, you can plug a USB stick into the graphics out!

What is so fucking hard to understand about this?

Re:MBA

[ColdWetDog]

I was hoping Apple would do away with those across the pro line and replace it with something that's ACTUALLY an important extra like additional mass storage

You can do this yourself in your spare time. Get an SSD from Otherworld along with a 2.5" HDD adapter for the optical drive. Stick the old HD in the optical port (or get a brand new 1 TB one) stuff the SSD in the main drive and incredible instant upgrade. It's a really weird feeling to have 1.25 Terabytes of storage in a laptop. I remember when ... Oh, I'll shut up now, it's time for the nurses to bring my meds.

Re:MBA

[pandrijeczko]

I understand the technological design concept, I just don't understand what use it is.

Additional monitor? Maybe in some industrial monitoring application where you need lots of displays - but, let's face it, Apple ain't a big player there. Plus with X-Windows and/or VNC you can do it on a couple of cheap PCs with a network cable anyway.

Ton of hard drives? Erm, why not just stick in a RAID box over a network and mount it for backup? No need to even plug any drives in...

USB sticks? Any PC I own has at least 4 USB ports, can't think of one scenario where I've needed to do stuff on 5 USB sticks simultaneously...

Are you making this shit up or something?

Re:MBA

[jimmerz28]

I spent 34k on a Sandstone Drake and that's just for looks; this isn't really much different. Sometimes I pay extra for looks.

Re:MBA

[BitZtream]

Okay, so in other words, Light Peak is designed for people too stupid to be able to work out what cable plugs into what socket on the computer

No, they didn't design it for people like you.

They designed it for people like me.

My laptop has 2 USB ports, an MDP, a firewire port, and ethernet port. So I can only plug in 2 usb devices, 1 mdp device/monitor, 1 fireware device and 1 network connection. So when I have my wireless mouse dongle and the usb power cable for my lap cooler, I can't plugin my phone, but I can plugin a monitor or video camera ... which I don't need.

On the contrary, if I had 5 LightPeak/Thunderbolt ports, all of which are capable of being ANY of the above ports, then I can plugin any 5 things I want, to any one of the ports I want, rather than being limited to 2 of one type of device, 1 of all the others, I can now mix and match however I want because we've gotten rid of the retarded restrictions based on connector type.

Again, just because you're too stupid to figure out the clear advantages it offers doesn't mean its a stupid idea, it just means your too ignorant, arrogant and self absorbed to think for a couple seconds that you may in fact, not have thought of everything.

Re:MBA

[BitZtream]

Plus with X-Windows and/or VNC you can do it on a couple of cheap PCs with a network cable anyway.

And this is an acceptable substitute for a locally attached display? Do you like lag for no reason what so ever? Seriously ... VNC? You could not have picked a more shitty example of how to do multiple monitors. I'm pretty sure what you've described is in a text book somewhere as how NOT to do it.

I have 2 USB ports, means I can plugin my mouse dongle and my laptop cooler power supply cable ... and not my phone to charge or sync ... but I've still got an unused firewire, ethernet and MDP port ... instead, with lightpeak/thunderbolt I can have all 3 devices I want plugged in today, and tomorrow I can unplug my phone and put a fast external drive in it if I want ... Or I can plugin my phone, ethernet, external disk and my mouse and cooler, or I can drop ANY one of those in favor of an extra ANY ONE OF THOSE.

5 ports that all use the same connections/protocols and are all sufficiently capable of replacing any of the 4 different ports on my laptop means I have far more flexibility.

Its not difficult to see unless you're just being a curmudgeon. If you can't understand why the choice and consistency is useful than I don't really understand how you cope with life in general, must be hard.

Re:MBA

[pandrijeczko]

And this is an acceptable substitute for a locally attached display? Do you like lag for no reason what so ever? Seriously ... VNC? You could not have picked a more shitty example of how to do multiple monitors. I'm pretty sure what you've described is in a text book somewhere as how NOT to do it.

I've found VNC perfectly acceptable for running remote desktops in some scenarios - like connecting to my home server from the Internet, if I need to run a GUI then it's pretty easy to tunnel VNC over SSH and not be too bothered about whether the remote PC is a Windows one using PuTTY and, say, RealVNC or a Linux one. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't use it run Crysis with all graphic options turned on on a remote display. Your definition of "shitty" is therefore irrelevant since that's determined by precisely what you are using it for.

I have 2 USB ports, means I can plugin my mouse dongle and my laptop cooler power supply cable ... and not my phone to charge or sync ... but I've still got an unused firewire, ethernet and MDP port ... instead, with lightpeak/thunderbolt I can have all 3 devices I want plugged in today, and tomorrow I can unplug my phone and put a fast external drive in it if I want ... Or I can plugin my phone, ethernet, external disk and my mouse and cooler, or I can drop ANY one of those in favor of an extra ANY ONE OF THOSE.

Wow! You've really worked hard on this "how many different device combinations can I plug in at once" argument, haven't you? But the practical advantage of all this unplugging and plugging is precisely what? You get more to do with your hands?

5 ports that all use the same connections/protocols and are all sufficiently capable of replacing any of the 4 different ports on my laptop means I have far more flexibility.

Okay, I can see a practical use here. There you are, in your pod at work when a loony with a gun jumps up behind you, holds it to your head and shouts "I need you to plug a second screen into your laptop within 20 seconds or I will blow your brains out", then clearly your likelihood of survival is far greater than mine in the same scenario, what with my plebian HP laptop with all those confusing different shaped ports on it.

Its not difficult to see unless you're just being a curmudgeon. If you can't understand why the choice and consistency is useful than I don't really understand how you cope with life in general, must be hard.

What is this? "Anglo Saxon Special Word Day" or something? First there was "douchebaggery", now "curmudgeon"... indeed, there is much flyting going on this fine Winter's eve.

Thunderbolt?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when does Apple make Android phones? (HTC Thunderbolt - See Verizon for further Details)

Re:Thunderbolt?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I could, but I'm on a call right now.

In Other Words

[Anonymous Coward]

... those of you who flocked in your hordes to buy iPad 1s at Christmas-time, just 8 weeks ago, are now getting the equivalent of Apple shitting into your mouths with the imminent release of iPad 2.

Re:In Other Words

[mbourgon]

Only if you didn't have a brain and chose not to hear everyone predicting an April release date, back in December. In other news, Apple goons come and take your iPad away, break it in half, then steal your credit card and buying an iPad2.

Fake...

[D-OveRMinD]

Pix are fake. That is a last gen macbook pro with a display port and a thunderbolt icon badly shopped in its place. Copper Peak will be a standard USB styled plug, and allow USB3/2/1 compatibility.

Apple is silent, while other talk up nothing.

[mosb1000]

When Apple talks, it actually means something, unlike the empty promises made my other technology companies.

It's because Apple doesn't announce products months or years before they are released. They only announce them when they are sure they'll have a product to ship. All you hear from other companies is hyped up initial announcements followed by delays and retracted features. From Apple you hear about new products that will actually ship as promised. It's not because Apple is better at shipping quality products on schedule (though they are). It's because they don't go on blabbing about every new technology they have in the works years before a working prototype has even seen the light of day.

Re:Apple is silent, while other talk up nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up, very insightful indeed.

Re:Apple is silent, while other talk up nothing.

[pandrijeczko]

Indeed. Never have I seen a more insightful opening and generalised sweeping statement than that one.

Re:Apple is silent, while other talk up nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

People said the same thing about Kinect. That it was vaporware.

Kinect sold faster than the iPad.

Re:Apple is silent, while other talk up nothing.

[Antisyzygy]

Its actually because Apple has a documented and real contempt for the consumer. They simply don't give a shit about you, because they know enough people will fall in line and buy up their products like little sheep. They will release a new product as they see fit, even if that means you just bought the old one with inferior hardware yesterday at the same price.

Re:Who cares....

[pandrijeczko]

Fair enough.

And when, on iPad 2 launch day, Apple also announces that iOS has been GPLed and that you can buy applications for it from sources other than the Apple Store that haven't gone through their pre-approval process first, then he and I will both be righteous enough to accept you're right.

iPad 2 Out March 2nd!

[pandrijeczko]

...but if you're a sandaled Free Software Foundation pornmonger who likes passing non-masturbatory time playing retrogame ROMs on emulators, then move along please. Nothing to see here!

Re:iPad 2 Out March 2nd!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who has non-masturbatory time?

Re:iPad 2 Out March 2nd!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, son. This hippy is going to be playing with the 2011 release of the Haskell platform, which is bringing the Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compiler up to version 7 and compiles, by default, to the Haskell 2010 spec.

You mother-bitches can take your iPads and give yourselves a nice shiny colonoscopy!

Re:iPad 2 Out March 2nd!

[pandrijeczko]

Oooh, I want your header files now, baby!

Re:iPad 2 Out March 2nd!

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, if you're a beret wearing hipster who likes riding fixies and listening to the latest Arcade Fire album, book all day March 2 to tweet all about the latest fashion from cupertino to all your fellow high school peeps.

Re:Who cares....

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The GPL just means you're getting software that's free, not software that doesn't suck.

I've had my fair share of iOS software crash, but, I don't think I've ever had a single piece of malware, rootkit, or nastygram come from the App Store. On mobile, I don't care, I don't want to tinker. I want the damn thing to work.

Is anyone else utterly bored by these 'leaks'?

[martinux]

I'm mystified as to why this is new for nerds, it's so terribly uninteresting. I can't see anything other than a (comparatively expensive) moderate upgrade to unremarkable hardware.

Statistics for laptop malfunctions http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_laptop_reliability_1109.pdf indicate that for a higher price you get poorer reliability than many more modestly priced laptops.

I can appreciate that Apple computers are considered to be high quality to the general public but they don't seem to do things any better than a PC with Linux so where's the nerd angle in this?

Need to drop the 13" Pro and get a Dell

[InsaneProcessor]

I have a 15 inch dell that cost me $450 that has more features than this, better ATI graphics and a $30 apple OS. I have more that you do for less than half the price.

OMG! It doesn't have a lit up apple picture on the back!

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro and get a Dell

[BitZtream]

Having run a hackintosh before I bought a real one, I can safely say that you do not have what I have. Every hackintosh I've ever seen has had a bunch of shit that didn't work. Its either sound, or graphics issues or not going to sleep, or ports not working all kinds of shit depending on the hardware you're trying to stuff it on.

After playing with it, reading forums till I turned blue, borrowing laptops on the 'known good' lists, I finally got sick of it and just bought a MBP.

What I learned is ... I wasted more money (in the form of my time) trying to get a hackintosh working properly and dealing with the bullshit when it didn't than I spent on my MBP.

You might think you're getting the same experience, but I assure you that you aren't. Trip over the cord and pull your laptop off the coffee table once or twice ... and then get a real mac and and not worry about it any more ... subtle thing that you'd never think about when buying a laptop ... and I will never own another laptop without a magsafe connector, even if it means I have to pay Apple $2,000 to get the EXACT same machine spec machine that dell sells for $450.

You simply don't know what you're missing, and you won't until you go from a real MBP to trying to use something else again.

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro and get a Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

so, just to get this straight, you'd pay $1,550 for a magsafe connector? that's one expensive power adaptor. just think about it... $1,550 for a magsafe connector?

i'm posting this from my macbook pro 15", i've got a powermac through there, a macbook pro 13" beside it and an ipod classic lying around somewhere and i love them all but, seriously, that's crazy talk. i could pay someone to modify my adaptors and put small magnets on the cable and computer for way less than that! then i'd ahve my EXACT same machine spec from dell and a nice magnetic connector, AND money in my pocket. or i could simply not bother tripping over my power cable and have $1,550 in my pocket...

Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro and get a Dell

[narcc]

Trip over the cord and pull your laptop off the coffee table once or twice

This has never happened to me or anyone I know.

Is tripping over the cable really a common problem for Mac users? Do you frequently suspend the cable a few inches above the floor across a common walk-way?

Honestly, it amazes me that this has happened to anyone -- let alone so many people that the "magsafe" connector was invented in the first place.

I pity the poor fellow who trips over his power cable so ofter that "magsafe" has become an essential feature. He must spend a lot of time at the hospital emergency room.

Re:Who cares....

[pandrijeczko]

Yep, some GPL software sucks, just like some commercial software - thanks for pointing out that one to me because in 15 years of using Open Source and Linux, I hadn't worked that one out for myself.

Incidentally, I've never had a single piece of malware using Open Source either - just because I can get my software pretty much anywhere that I want to does not mean that I haven't grown at least a few braincells to work out that there are some places I can trust to get my software from and others that I cannot.

Just because Mother Apple keeps you in clean diapers all your life doesn't automatically mean I end up stinking of shit because I've not worked out how to "go toilet" myself and clean myself afterwards...

Re:Who cares....

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Yet, that doesn't keep malware from stinking up the Android market place.

I'd rather not have to juggle around and make sure that my software is coming from trust sources or that I have to clean up my phone. I did tech support jobs when I was younger and the pay wasn't that great. What makes you think doing it for free on my own time is a better alternative?

I really don't think that's it...

[mbessey]

If you fork out 2000 for a laptop people look at you like you have money. Also, people are under the impression that increased cost means better performance.

I don't know a single Mac user who doesn't complain about Apple's high prices, but they pay them anyway. They must be getting some value for that extra cash.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you fork out 2000 for a laptop people look at you like you have money. Also, people are under the impression that increased cost means better performance.

I don't know a single Mac user who doesn't complain about Apple's high prices, but they pay them anyway. They must be getting some value for that extra cash.

They are also the only ones that complain loudly when their manufacturer (Apple in case you lost track) brings out new machines with better specs "too soon" after they bought theirs.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Drakino]

I don't complain about Apple's prices, because it has always been worth it for me. When I bought a Mac Pro tower in 2008, spec for spec it came in around $200 cheeper then the equivalent Dell Precision. Does this happen all the time? No, but the best time to catch Apple being competitive with pricing is right when a new system ships. Yes, I could have built a system cheaper, but I preferred to let someone else do the labor and research on what parts to integrate. This resulted in receiving a box, opening, and working within 15 minutes. And it's a very quiet machine to boot.

Here I am, with the machine approaching 3 years old, and I have no urge to replace it. I've upgraded the video card, added some more RAM, and threw in a small SSD for some apps. It's also been covered under a warranty that means I call one place if it breaks, instead of having to troubleshoot what part and deal with the vendor directly.

"You get what you pay for" does really apply to Apple. Their laptops are some of the highest quality machines I've seen, especially when surrounded by plastic creaking heavy systems at Best Buy. All the little things add up, like LED backlighting, huge touchpad, sealed in battery for longer life and so on.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Antisyzygy]

"You get what you pay for" does really apply to Apple. Their laptops are some of the highest quality machines I've seen, especially when surrounded by plastic creaking heavy systems at Best Buy. All the little things add up, like LED backlighting, huge touchpad, sealed in battery for longer life and so on.

Then explain to me why Apple makes more profit per Mac than any of the other manufacturers of Laptops and Desktops. The real reason people buy Apple is because they have money to burn, and yet they defend their choice as a rational one rather than one based purely on looks and hype. If you actually try some of the new HP's they are of the same caliber, easy to use, decent bundled software, sturdy metal chassis, light weight and all. However, Apple fanboy's are quick to trumpet "superior user experience" when its mostly bullshit. If you are anti-windows fucking install Ubuntu, its a good OS with a ton of free software. A person who knew what they were talking about would first mention "Well, MacOS is Unix based and CPU/memory efficient" as the first reason for buying a Mac, not the other crap. I don't dispute you cannot get good deals on Apple's sometimes, but thats generally rare and only reasonable people take advantage of it. I bought my wife a refurbished Macbook Pro for about 400 less than retail. It was a good deal.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Antisyzygy]

Whats it called when you make a poor decision but justify it for yourself afterward so you feel better about it?

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah yeah yeah yadda yadda yadda, keep banging that drum cos no-one's gonna give a fuck unless you keep on at it for hours

what i'm *much* more interested in is that "sealed in battery for longer life bit". how does *that* work? the rating of the battery doesn't change if they seal the fucker in and charge you $50 to take it back out again, they just make more money. me, i love my macbook but i'll never pretend apple aren't a bunch of money-gouging cunts. just that they're less so than people tend to say when you spec up similar machines (including battery life). and that sealed-in battery, so far as i can see, is a way of gouging more money from us when the thing inevitably goes shit after 18 months.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[SteeldrivingJon]

I don't complain about Apple's prices.

Of course, I remember paying $3400 for an SE/30. You can buy a lot of Mac today without approaching the non-inflation-adusted price of the 68k Macs. (Or early 486es, for that matter).

My eyes start to water at $3000 these days, and there's no way I'd buy a configured Mac that totaled out to over $4k without winning the lottery.

I'm fairly comfortable paying $2000 for an Apple laptop, though.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[SteeldrivingJon]

I believe the theory is that by not making it removable, they can use the space that would be taken up by the battery casing and socket, and have a bigger battery, without making the computer itself bigger.

They also aren't constrained into shaping the battery in a way that is convenient for it to be a compact removable unit. They can flatten it out, turn it into multiple lobes that fill the available space more efficiently, etc.

Hell, if they could inject a lithium battery filling into a laptop like donut filling, so that it used up every spare cubic nanometer of space, they'd probably do it.

Re:I really don't think that's it...

[Coren22]

You should have compared the video cards than...Mac Pro is not cheaper then the equivalent Dell, I have checked, and that is BS. Written on my work Mac Pro (not my choice...)

Re:Who cares....

[pandrijeczko]

It doesn't stink up my Android market place because I'm clever enough not to download endless advert shitware that, for example, makes my mobile phone look like a glass of beer when I hold it to my lips and tip it.

I don't get why you have such a big problem with this as a concept - if you have a driving license then you invested money and time in learning how to use a car and a bit about how it works. Why, just because it's a computer, are there different rules?

I use Windows and Linux, I've not seen any viruses or malware in years because I don't use virus-ridden pirated software, I don't use deeply embedded (into Windows) apps like IE or Outlook and I scan and update regularly. Just like I sometimes put oil in my car engine and pump some air into the tyres.

And with your last point, maybe if you can't find the time to do something properly, then stop doing it or organise your time better?

Re:Who cares....

[scot4875]

I don't think I've ever had a single piece of malware, rootkit, or nastygram come from the App Store.

I would hope not -- isn't that basically the entire point of having a walled-garden approach to the app store? Apple personally vets each application -- if they let something like that slip through it would be a huge black mark on their "verification" process.

Also, I've never had a single piece of malware, rootkit, or nastygram come from the Android Marketplace either. Are they out there? Probably. Am I stupid enough to install a ringtone set that requires full internet permissions and the ability to read information off the phone? Haven't been fooled so far.

--Jeremy

Huh? (Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro)

[wsanders]

Huh? Base 13-in MBP is only $200 more, comes with 4G instead of 2G and SD reader, slightly smaller and weighs a few g less.

If you bring MB up to 4G, only $100 difference.

Re:Huh? (Re:Need to drop the 13" Pro)

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, only 20% more? Well gee then, that's nothing!

It's called industrial design

[Anonymous Coward]

We're not talking about color, we're talking about carrying half a kilo less than a similarly specced laptop, having a well thought out system of interchangeable plugs for the power adapter so you can easily bring it to another country, having a high quality LCD panel, having a backlit keyboard, having a solid aluminium enclosure that doesn't twist when you open the lid, having a computer that wakes from sleep in less than the time it takes to open the lid, having a power connector that automatically releases if you trip over the lead, having a nice wide trackpad that you can use gestures like two-finger tap for right click and two-finger drag to scroll. It's called industrial design. It's something people who have money are willing to pay for.

Re:It's called industrial design

[Antisyzygy]

It's something people who have money are willing to pay for.

Then stop defending Apple as some superior user experience and admit you actually have money to burn, thats why you bought it. Ive used tons of different laptops with equal or better user experience than Macs. Apple just gives you a better looking setup with some extra ergonomics. You cannot possibly tell me that they are charging whats fair for their products when they make more profit per PC than any of the other manufacturers.

Re:It's called industrial design

[Antisyzygy]

Backlit keyboard? Don't they have electric lights or torches on your planet, either?

I would mod this up but I posted already.

Re:It's called industrial design

[serviscope_minor]

Have you actually used non-apple products, or apple ones for that matter?

We're not talking about color, we're talking about carrying half a kilo less than a similarly specced laptop,

Rubbish. There are laptops spanning the entire power/weight spectrum from non apple vendors. It's even possible to get ones with carbon fibre shells.

having a well thought out system of interchangeable plugs for the power adapter so you can easily bring it to another country,

They use the standard figure-8 socket, just like almost everyone else. Well, they do now. They used to prefer the much less standard B shape instead.

having a high quality LCD panel

Subjective. I hate glossy panels.

, having a backlit keyboard,

That's a decent feature, but not unique.

having a solid aluminium enclosure that doesn't twist when you open the lid

Like the 1st gen Airs which had that problem of blowing out the hinge on the nice solid aluminium case? There are also plenty of laptops which have a very solid feel to them.

having a computer that wakes from sleep in less than the time it takes to open the lid,

Suspend to RAM seems standard these days. My eee wakes up very quickly.

  having a power connector that automatically releases if you trip over the lead,

Which is a lovely feature. I really like that. But, whyohwhyohwhyohwhy did they have to make it so damn slimline that the cable entry into the magnetic part wears out too easily. They could have added an extra 5mm and added years to the service life.

having a nice wide trackpad that you can use gestures like two-finger tap for right click and two-finger drag to scroll.

You know, basically every synaptics pad supports those gestures? Also, the large pad is quite nice, but it does make the laptops quite large.

It's called industrial design. It's something people who have money are willing to pay for.

Yes I agree. The industrial design is to me far more important than raw computing power (which is why I use an eee). But, Apples industrial design on laptops has been quite spotty over the years.

The tower desktops have excellent thermal design and noise (at the cost of reduced density compared to some cases). The smaller portable devices appear to be as solid as any other (ignoring the antenna foul up). But the laptops, well meh. Sure, they're better than a bottom of the range 4" thick Dell junker, but then almost anything is, and they certainly do have nice features.

But they've had hinge issues, fan issues (if you happened to live at high elevation), problems with the cable in power plug, and overheating issues. And I personally find the DVD drives to be substantially worse at reading damaged DVDs than other laptop drives I've tried.

Their industrial design of laptops is OK, and on the upper end, but not outstanding or best in class.

But there have been planty of mess ups too.

Re:It's called industrial design

[hackstraw]

I think my macbook's backlit keyboard is pretty cool. Sometimes, like right now I'm in a dimly lit room and I don't feel like turning on a light. I've had many friends say that they wish their laptop's keyboard was backlight.

Each to their own.

Re:It's called industrial design

[pandrijeczko]

Yes, but you've simply confirmed what I've been saying all along - your friends think its cool meaning that it's a feature designed to improve the look of the device rather than the functionality.

I could argue that I've never been in a situation such that I couldn't use a computer keyboard because it was too dark - therefore, as a feature it adds little in the way of actual functionality.

Re:It's called industrial design

[gstoddart]

Yes, but you've simply confirmed what I've been saying all along - your friends think its cool meaning that it's a feature designed to improve the look of the device rather than the functionality.

No, he has confirmed that the feature is cool because it provides functionality, not because it's pretty. ABS in a car is pretty cool too, and it used to be something you had to pay extra for -- was it a status symbol, or a safety feature? Might it have been both?

I could argue that I've never been in a situation such that I couldn't use a computer keyboard because it was too dark - therefore, as a feature it adds little in the way of actual functionality.

I could argue that I have never needed the oxygen mask in an airplane. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's functional. A lighted keyboard would be cool -- not in a "Type R" kinda way, but in a "this is useful" kinda way.

Just because you have never had occasion to use a feature, doesn't make it a cosmetic feature.

Waterloo of the Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

Computing devices becoming ever more ubiquitous and easy to use. These are good time for people who want to have other interests than how to set DIP switches on a motherboard.

People are interested in Apple's stuff. No one gives a gnat's fart about the latest from Dell or HP. Maybe pull your head out of your fat, geek ass and figure out why, and, no, not the fuckhead, asshole, superficial fake reasons that you nerd miseryshits like to traffic in. LOL! Dumbasses. The world is LAUGHING at the apoplectic fits you geeks launch into over Apple's successes. Please. Have more conniptions. You've become a sideshow.

Re:Waterloo of the Nerds

[jimicus]

Wouldn't normally bother replying to an AC, but there's a glimmer of truth in what you're saying.

Thing is, a LOT of people in IT are basically making a living off smoothing off the rough edges around Windows XP. They don't have the depth of experience to build out an entire network. Yet the emergence of Apple as a force to be reckoned with - and the release of Windows 7 (which while it's a long way from being perfect, has substantially fewer rough edges than XP) - means that there's going to be a lot fewer jobs for people like that over the course of the coming years.

Re:Waterloo of the Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, DIP switches? I guess you switched to Apple sometime in the late 90's. Lured by the sexiness of System 9 and an Apple without Steve Jobs. Hardcore man, just hardcore.

Re:Waterloo of the Nerds

[otuz]

Hey, everyone knows DIP switches were replaced by the much cheaper jumper blocks in PC hardware in early 90's.

Maybe the problem is you, not them

[Quiet_Desperation]

It's only tiresome to you if you take it so seriously. If they are doing it intentionally, and it works, who gives a damn? What bothers you so much about an American company doing well in this economy? I know a guy who just got hired to a high paying engineering position at Apple. OMG! That's HORRIBLE! (eyeroll)

Wow. A company getting tech into the hands of folks who might not have otherwise taken the plunge. Getting people to learn that the big bad intertoobed tech world is actually nothing to fear, despite what Hollywood and the news media incessantly preaches. HOLY SHIT! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!!

Re:Who cares....

[BitZtream]

Yep, some GPL software sucks, just like some commercial software - thanks for pointing out that one to me because in 15 years of using Open Source and Linux, I hadn't worked that one out for myself.

He wasn't pointing the obvious fact, he was pointing out the ratio of good to suck ... and the difference is clear to anyone without blinders.

Intel video is going backwards from past systems a

[Joe The Dragon]

Intel video is going backwards from past systems and if apple thinks that they can get $1200 for this they most be joking.

What will the next mini have i3 on board video? Light peak tied to the video out port? No light peak, NO USB 3.0 in the next mini?

Right, from the guy who sued to stop leaks

[unassimilatible]

Jobs is notoriously secretive. He likes surprise, "on more thing" announcements. But now he's leaking? He's more likely to be cast on The Biggest Loser. It's more probable that vendors or partners are breaching NDA's a little early.

As for the iPad 2, it's coming out in a couple of days. It's not like Apple endlessly teases vaporware. And after the stock got hammered by that stock manipulator in Taiwan, claiming iPad 2 delays, God forbid Apple counters with the truth! Marketing ploy! (insert eye-roll emoticon here).

I'd just like for apple to have a resonalbe update

[cdpage]

its not asking much, and it makes 'leeks' seem less well leeky.

I'd really like to know what their deal is the the Mac Pro's.

What takes so long to update these? i mean really Towers should be something they have update every couple months. It's a Tower!

Re:Who cares....

[pandrijeczko]

And that ratio is precisely what then? And what size of sample group did you use to determine that ratio?

I think "find" on the Linux command line is a great command for locating files on my system - but my wife, as a Windows user, would probably say it sucks and prefers to use Windows Explorer to find her files. So which opinion is right or wrong?

I'm all ears because clearly you have an answer to this.

True, but Oracle is pretty hardassed

[unassimilatible]

The reason leaks don't occur in Oracle or Computer Associates is, no one gives a damn. And leaks do occur at Microsoft and Adobe too, but again, no one gives a damn.

I agree with most of what you wrote about Apple, i.e., the idea of Steve "One More Thing, Leak And I'll Sue You" Jobs leaking is preposterous. I mean Jesus, he was just excoriated here for not giving more info on his health, and shareholders voted today on making their succession plans public (dumb idea, but it does tend to make my point). And there is so much speculation by the Apple blogosphere, somebody has to be right. And vendors and partners violate NDA's early.

But I can speak to Oracle. My GF works for them, and they scare the crap out of employees not to share stuff outside. Her e-mails are emblazoned with, "DO NOT SHARE OUTSIDE OF COMPANY - PRIVATE FINANCIAL/PROPRIERTY TRADE SECRET INFO, blah blah blah" warnings (I don't know the exact warning because she won't show me, ha ha). I've sat next to her on the bed, and she won't show me or tell me about the contents of these secret e-mails, for fear she will be fired. True, nobody is waiting with bated breath for the next RDBMS release, but Saddam's staff had a more relaxed atmosphere. Jobs isn't the only whip-cracker in tech, lemee tell ya.

Re:True, but Oracle is pretty hardassed

[Anonymous Coward]

But I can speak to Oracle. My GF works for them, and they scare the crap out of employees not to share stuff outside. Her e-mails are emblazoned with, "DO NOT SHARE OUTSIDE OF COMPANY - PRIVATE FINANCIAL/PROPRIERTY TRADE SECRET INFO, blah blah blah" warnings (I don't know the exact warning because she won't show me, ha ha). I've sat next to her on the bed, and she won't show me or tell me about the contents of these secret e-mails, for fear she will be fired.

Or maybe she's just having an affair with a colleague.

Re:True, but Oracle is pretty hardassed

[drinkypoo]

I agree with most of what you wrote about Apple, i.e., the idea of Steve "One More Thing, Leak And I'll Sue You" Jobs leaking is preposterous.

To suggest that Apple is not leaking information deliberately because Steve Jobs says so is about the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. Apple wants controlled leaks and still hasn't figured out that leaks don't work that way.

Idle

[jvonk]

Since the redesign there is no way for me to filter Idle.

I thought I was alone in noticing. You used to be able to filter it in the old index, and I did. Some[who?] have speculated that they have deliberately made it hard to filter Idle because it helps to push traffic to other chosen sites. I noticed some submitters commenting in threads that their submissions' links have been changed from direct links to the content over to those annoying adword-infested blogs that so many complain about.

I don't want to risk filtering a story about idle CPU time just because it has the word "idle" in it. And even when I do filter Idle, I still get Idle stories showing up. It doesn't work.

I triaged the problem differently than you did: I decided that I loathe Idle enough that I am willing to lose ham in order to kill more of the spam. Of course, as you pointed out, it doesn't work if they studiously avoid using the word "Idle" in the submission.

After the redesign, many options simply don't work.

I know. Since the redesign, I have lived in constant fear of JonKatz returning to post more stories, with no way for me to block him anymore (haha). I believe I originally filtered him out back in 2001. Ah, good times on the old Slashdot...

yes, and...

[Gary W. Longsine]

Yes, and:

1. the whiners can set their slashdot preferences to avoid seeing most apple related stories
2. both the rumors and the FUD are driven by Google ad revenue for web sites that cover this stuff, so we'll continue to see it so long as Apple does interesting stuff

Re:Japanese automakers

[DocSavage64109]

I was going to say something about Datsun 210, 310, 510, etc. but then I realized Datsun renamed to Nissan and the cars now have names for the most part.

iPad premium == negative a hundred bucks or so

[Gary W. Longsine]

Well, judging by what other manufacturers are promising to maybe think about possibly shipping one day real soon now, the iPad premium is roughly -$100 to -$150.

Copper rocks my world

[Gary W. Longsine]

Assuming there is a new connection type, and assuming it's copper based, and assuming it's in the neighborhood of 10Gbps and full duplex, and otherwise based on LightPeak, it should be pretty keen. The world needs a decent copper based high speed i/o connection. It will probably co-exist for many years with the fibre based version to come. With luck, it will feature a decent connector plug and kill off USB3.

Quad Core i7

[Gary W. Longsine]

The Quad Core CPUs apparently are not yet shipping. Furthermore, they apparently will pump out an extra 10 watts of heat (35 Watts for dual core, 45 for quad core parts). I'll be more excited for a quad core laptop when they get it into a thermal envelope that won't endanger future generations.

Re:Quad Core i7

[Gary W. Longsine]

"The Quad Core CPUs apparently are not yet shipping."

That has since changed. It would appear that Intel didn't list them as available parts because Apple bought the initial production run of them. All.

I love Apple Bloggers

[SpeedStreet]

Apple seems to have the best market research available to them:

In Year 0, some blogger will make up a completely false story citing "sources within Apple" that may or may not exist. The story is complete bullshit but fanbois go absolutely bonkers at the mere thought of something as innocuous as a front facing camera on their phones for video chat.

Year 1 rolls around, and Apple is releasing the same product again and now more bloggers make up stories about "Feature X" being the "One More Thing" Cancer Man will unveil. Hype reaches a crescendo as dozens of conflicting photoshop renditions are made, most of them using blurry camera phone pics that couldn't clearly come from the superior cameras built into Apple products!

Year 2 Apple finally adds the feature that other products have had now for some time. Cue the Apple orgasm.

Now that being said, they still make the prettiest laptops and trackpads :)

Light Peak will kill USB3

[Gary W. Longsine]

Granted, the information which has been made public by Intel is not sufficient to allow outsiders to speak authoritatively on this points, but LightPeak appears to be a fully functional device connection standard in its own right, more akin to (or a superset of) FireWire in its capability. The fact that it can carry other protocols like USB is not evidence that it's not fully capable of being the "native" connection type (it almost certainly is thusly capable).

Retina Display!

[exomondo]

The report also mentions iPhone 4-like "Retina Display" technology, which on an iPad form factor, would translate to over 2,000 pixels.
From.

Whoah! That's nearly 1/2 the amount of pixels on my Nokia 3210!

Not a USB/Firewire replacement

[itsdapead]

If the leaks are right, then it looks like the Thunderbolt (shudder) port is also a mini-DisplayPort (it certainly looks identical, and the leaked box photo says it is MDP and Thunderbolt) - i.e. you just plug your MDP cable in as usual.

That suggests to me that Apple's initial plan for Thunderbolt is more as a "docking" system than a USB/Firewire replacement. After all, there are currently zero Thunderbolt/LightPeak* peripherals to choose from (and I wouldn't hold my breath for either with USB3 just taking off) - but a future Apple Cinema Display (or an iMac) that used the link to provide sound, USB, Ethernet, storage... without the overhead of going over USB would be rather cool.

Also, given that it looks like Apple are going to get behind Lightpeak and push, much like they did with USB, this could be a strategic move to ensure that all would-be third party peripherals sport a through connection (unlike some cheapskate Firewire devices),

(* Oh god, "Thunderbolt and Lightpeak" - *plink* the penny drops... Groan!)

USB3 Must Die (and other Light Peak info)

[Gary W. Longsine]

Light Peak is designed to be what the minimal Intel marketing on Light Peak calls "multi-protocol" capable, which most observers have taken to mean "it can serve as the transport layer for other protocols" in the same way that FireWire can serve as a TCP/IP connection on the Mac, today. The exact capabilities do not seem to be public information, just yet. The public demonstrations of Light Peak which Intel has performed clearly indicate that one intended use case is a remote "hub" which can have Light Peak as well as other connection types on it, such as the USB and Light Peak hub demonstrated in this Intel demonstration of Light Peak.

Re:USB3 Must Die (and other Light Peak info)

[Gary W. Longsine]

Oh, and conceptually, that remote hub is intended to be built into other devices, like a monitor.

Thunderbolt might be only a rumor

[Gary W. Longsine]

Regardless, in the most generous case, "Light Peak" gives you only an erroneous idea of how an electron based connection type would work.

13 inch still 1280x800?

[aztektum]

The 13" MB Air gets a rez bump but none for the "Pro" model. Assuming these specs are legit, that is disappointing.

Re:13 inch still 1280x800?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm definately disappointed. The baseline specs for the Pro should be the baseline for the regular MBs. If the $1200 price is kept that's a 3200GB 5400RPM and only 4GB of DDR3 1333. If 4GB is kept I would expect it to at least be DDR3 1600.

Oh, well, guess we're gonna get owned in upgrade charges.

Re:Who cares....

[thetoadwarrior]

Apple doesn't implement any hardware you can't get use (or buy) elsewhere. That is why Windows works perfectly fine on a Mac and all my mac hardware (keyboards, monitors, etc) work on a windows machine.

About the only thing Macs really lack in software is the vast gaming library Windows has but other than that you're just making yet another uninformed comment.

Re:Who cares....

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I'm clever enough not to download endless advert shitware that, for example, makes my mobile phone look like a glass of beer when I hold it to my lips and tip it.

What about something that claims to be a task manager or some other benign entity?

And with your last point, maybe if you can't find the time to do something properly, then stop doing it or organise your time better?

I don't bother and I still browse safely and have a pretty good user experience.

I'm just wondering why you think this is a better way for all users? With the car metaphor, we invented the automatic transmission and starter motor. Unless you argue that people are lazy by not having to double clutch or get out front and crank.

Jobs' jobbies

[wrencherd]

Butt...butt...I just heard that Steve Jobs had a bowel movement!

FTFY

Steve Jobs going all GG Allen

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he's planning to die during a keynote speech?

"Well, that's the iPad2. And one more thing... AAAUUUGGGHH my liver! *thump*"

Unimpressive specs even on the Pro

[cbhacking]

4GB of RAM? WTF? I have a laptop that's 2 years old, cost me just over $1000, and came with 4GB. I mean, I've come to expect Apple devices to be over cost and under spec right before an update, but right after? 4GB is barely better than low-end for a new laptop these days, netbooks excepted (not that any Apple "notebook" would cost anything close to a netbook). Putting that in a "Pro" model machine, which will probably cost about 2x what my 2-year-old laptop did, is simply ridiculous.

Hell, I upgraded another laptop - a 12" tablet - to 4GB of RAM (2x2GB) at the same time as I bought the other machine, for a cost of $90. By Moore's Law, the same amount of money should get me 8GB today, and I'm sure Apple can get better discounts than I can by just going down to Fry's. What's their excuse?

Random example (neither of my current laptops are Dell, but their business lines are decent):
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/vostro-3300/pd?oc=bvcs34a&model_id=vostro-3300
2.53GHz Core i5 (better than the MBP)
13.3" display (lower res than the MBP though)
4GB of DDR3 RAM

Total cost after tax and all is about $700. The new MBP is *probably* not more than 3x as much...
For a bit under $2000 I could get 8GB and a Core i7, in 13.3" form factor.

Re:Intel video is going backwards from past system

[Anonymous Freak]

Intel video doesn't bother me as much; many reviews say it is roughly equal to the nVidia 320M that is in the current Mini and 13" MacBook Pro (and MacBook, and MacBook Air.) Yes, it would be nice to get better video, but for low-end machines, it's not that big a deal.

Wait, we were talking about a Pro machine? Okay, that sucks.

Honestly. I truly don't care on the 'consumer' machines as the stock video - yeah, the iMac should still have good video, but the Mini, Air, and just-plain MacBook are fine with HD3000. It supports the same feature set as 320M (Yes, even OpenCL, although part of it is implemented in the CPU hardware, it supports it, so who really cares HOW it supports it.)

But the "Pro" machines should all have higher-end graphics. To me, this is one of the main selling points. It used to be that in the light-pro category, the major selling point of Apple over competitors was the use of discrete video.

For the mini, I hope it has i3 standard, with quad-core i5/i7 as optional, on board video is fine, Light Peak (which can be a dual-use video port, although that would be odd having to choose BETWEEN Light Peak and video,) and no USB 3. Since I'm interested in the 'Server' version, I hope that it (at $999,) includes a quad-core by default, and what would *REALLY* kick ass is dual spinning hard drives (2.5" drives are up to 1 TB now,) PLUS the SSD-on-a-stick from the MBA. Even the 64 GB one would be sufficient for OS+Apps, with the dual 1 TB drives (although to hit the $999 mark, smaller spinning drives would be okay,) for mass storage.

What a speedy HD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah another 5,400 RPM drive - wheeeeeeeeeeee. Do they have to special order those?

Acer has a system with better video, cpu and bigge

[Joe The Dragon]

Acer has a system with better video, cpu and bigger HDD for $700

apple will want $1000+ for a slower cpu intel video and smaller hdd

Here is good place to start...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Peak

Re:Acer has a system with better video, cpu and bi

[Danimoth]

The macbook also has 2.5x the battery life. Sometimes its worth paying for a better engineered product.

Re:Acer has a system with better video, cpu and bi

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah, but the Apple will work.

You're a moron

[Anonymous Coward]

I assure you, as an Apple stockholder, I follow this a lot closer than you do. You're a fucking moron if you think Jobs wants any of these specs leaked out. Fucktard.

Could be both

[unassimilatible]

But it would be a lot easier not to drive to my house and just be with the colleague.