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Are We Too Reliant On GPS?
RedEaredSlider writes "A new report from the Royal Academy of Engineering in London suggests developed nations have become too reliant on GPS systems. The report from the Academy focuses on global navigation satellite systems (GNSS) and their vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities include deliberate or accidental interference, both man-made (such as jamming) and natural (such as solar flares). While most people equate GPS systems with the tiny screens which get drivers from point A to point B, the report says society's reliance on the technology goes well beyond that. The Academy says the range of applications using the technology is so vast that without adequate independent backup, signal failure or interference could potentially affect safety systems and other critical parts of the economy."
VOR/DME is still the way to go. ADF will get you by in a pinch, but it can throw you a real curve ball sometimes.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
I was on a shuttle bus with a set of Marine veterans going to Vietnam. They were reminiscing about training and someone threw in that a group of recruits were kicked out for cheating on their basic fieldcraft/map reading. Apparently, the defence used by the guys who were caught is that basic fieldcraft isn't relevant because they know where they are from GPS. I found it unbelievable that the thought even crossed their minds.
All it takes is the US GPS system to be jammed, and they are in a hell of a lot of trouble...
We are also too reliant on electricity, computers, cars, airplanes, ships,...
Let's just fly it all in to the sun, and mate with cavemen!
I will make the same comment I make every time we debate technology's superiority to paper:
I cannot remember the last time my map crashed. It may be inaccurate (but so may GPS), it may be out of date (but so may GPS), it may not be intuitive (but so may GPS). But when I turn too fast and pull the plug out of the lighter socket, my paper map will still work. When some jerk is driving next to me with non-FCC licensed equipment drowning out the GPS band, my paper map will still work. It doesn't call out turns a mile ahead, it doesn't show up-to-the-thirty-minutes-ago traffic, all it does is show me where I am and I can use my brain to figure out where I'm going.
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
Just my $0.55 (US inflation, 1774-2008, for $0.02)
I was cleaning the basement the other day and came across an old compass of mine. It got me thinking, I wonder if future generations are even going to be able to operate the things.
Sent from my PDP-11
You don't see any problems with becoming reliant on receiving realtime directions while having no personal knowledge of where you are and how to get where you are going?
The person who walked into traffic because the GPS didn't tell them they weren't in a safe area for pedestrians to waltz across the road should be a warning not an example to follow.
They key word you used is "assistance". If that's all it is to you, you're fine. I actually rarely use it, even though I have it on my phone. My biggest use is to center the map on my location because that's convenient.
If you don't know how to read a map, or figure out which direction is North, it's no longer "assistance". It's the only method of navigation you understand.
GPS receivers break, their batteries die, they are subject to interference. I use them all the time, but I also have a paper map in the trunk.
The difference between the spoken directions (lowest tech) and the GPS is that if the GPS breaks I have no idea where I'm going from there, and probably can't find my way back because I've been focusing on a GPS screen and not viewable landmarks. In your example, if I've driven five sees and I haven't encountered a barn, I can backtrack about three sees and look more carefully for a barn. And if the barn is torn down, chances are I can try the two or three roads at the second see and start looking for the next landmark.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
And this is exactly why society or the economy won't come crashing down if GPS fails. In most cases we can and will switch to less convenient but more reliable tech.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
If you had, y'know, read the article (or even the summary) you would've seen them point out that the issue is not whether John Q. Driver can get from place to place, but how there are a lot of invisible applications, like synchronizing the US power grid, that have grown to rely on GPS. Those are the things that are in danger from intentional or unintentional jamming, no one cares about navigation.
The worst part about this is that the solution is not as easy as this article makes it out to be. GPS signals have to be as weak as they are by design- you just can't get much more transmitting power into those satellites, and while LORAN might help, I don't think it has the accuracy either in positioning or in timing that a lot of applications need. It does highlight the necessity for these devices to "fail gracefully" instead of catastrophically though.
Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
What are you trying to argue, that people shouldn't be using tools? One of your distant ancestors could have just as easily claimed that flint knives are just another way to not take responsibility for mammoth killing.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
First of all, why are the Slashdot abbreviated comments using gray type on a gray background! This is painful. Secondly, given human nature, if the GPS info is reliable for more than a few days at a time someone will make an app for that... After a while it will end up controlling our nuclear arsenal. It's the same reason people live on the sides of volcanoes. If it hasn't blown up for a while, someone has to move there.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
He's an inertial nav test guy, I'm a former avionics developer.
We both agreed that we can understand the financial incentives to remove inertial nav from planes, but that it's misguided.
You *NEED* a backup in case GPS fails (and dead reckoning has a good chance of leaving you just that -- dead).
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
the engadget pictures speaks for itself
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/08/early-mid-week-shocker-research-says-we-are-overly-reliant-on-g/
I have traveled down some roads which the GPS says are continuous state roads but are closer 4 wheeler trails.
The GPS makes no claim to accuracy of the maps they provide. There is nothing quite like being out in a storm only to find out that the short cut your GPS maps show as roads are really dirt trails.
It happens far to often. It is why I don't rely on GPS. Useful yes, but in a jam I have two eyes, two ears and a brain between them
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Mind repeating that in English?
It is not my first language either, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.
With the South Atlantic Anomaly getting bigger, going back to compass readings might not be reliable during a pole flip either. GPS might need some hardening to prevent spoofing. But I thought it would be a good system to have in place when magnetic poles move.
The exact argument is we're becoming too comfortable with tech and leaving off old-school thinking.
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That is a problem with the maps you were using not GPS. GPS is Global Positioning System, it just tells you where you are and that is it.
Well all I got to say is I'm yappin' with someone on how get to where I want to go and they say, "I'm at 37.655, -121.998."
dammit how about a street address? and a cross street will be helpful as well. and if you got brain one, how about Thomas Guide page/grid number?
mfwright@batnet.com
This is nothing to do with road navigation.
It has everything to do with all the other systems using GPS: the thing that tracks the location of your important parcel, or keeps the "Next train in 5 minutes" indicator accurate, or synchronises the clock on something.
I don't see how that's a problem exclusive to GPS. You could just as easily be following directions from a gas station map that has the same trail labeled as a state route. GPS didn't invent map errors.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
Geez dude. Maybe you should learn to rely on spellcheck.
"relay" should by rely.
Technology is not capitalized.
"to the thinking way"... I think you left out the word "do".
"to much" should be "too much".
"person" should be "personal".
"responsibly" should be "responsibility".
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
See the original text of the report.
Not to be a total ass, but a map doesn't actually show you where you are. You have to determine your own location on the map.
I agree that a map won't fail in the same ways a GPS unit will fail, but your argument isn't really a fair argument. An outdoor GPS works in the rain, a map gets wet and turns to mush. A GPS takes much less room to store more map data. A GPS won't have small tears at the edges and folds.
Each method for location has its' own strengths and weaknesses. Use the correct tool for the job.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
Why does the Railroads need GPS when they they have FIXED TRACK and like 30-40 year old systems for keeping track where trains are at.
We rely on technology to do the thinking way too much these days. GPS is just another way to not take personal responsibly.
It's either clever or ironic that your comments illustrate the problem so well. Good job either way.
Meh, as long as you don't blindly follow GPS directions it's fine to rely on it for driving. Now for situations that could endanger my life (backwoods hiking or mountain climbing or sea kayaking) I don't even start with GPS but use a simple compass and waterproof map that I've studied before starting my trip (should I lose the map).
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
There was an article a few weeks ago on how people have died through following their GPS into Death Valley, then getting into trouble - no water, no cellphone coverage, very high temperatures. Go figure.
I've got a slide-rule, if that helps with the math and trig.
As an American that has been to the UK (the apparent location of the authors) and has driven around with both a GPS and just a map, I will take the GPS hands down! The signage in a typical UK town is bad. You generally need to look at the buildings to find out what street you are on if you can spot it before you pass it. The roundabouts seem to tell you what town you are going to end up in if you take that particular road instead of what street that you are turning onto. Navigating with a map was painful!
Now it could just be because I am not used to it. I know that there are parts of the US (Maryland and NY come to mind) that I have been to that can be similarly difficult to navigate, but not to the level that I experienced in the UK. So I am curious if there are any Brits that have driven in the US and what their impressions were on driving here compared to the UK. Would you take GPS over a map also?
Well, I guess you haven't heard about all of the things that are actually reliant on GPS. Sure, it is used for consumer navigation and that could easily be replaced with a paper map.
But, did you know that the 60Hz synchronization of electrical generation in the US is reliant on GPS clocks? Lose GPS and the synch will drift and this results in disconnecting from the grid. I.e., power failures. I believe the previous synchronization systems were primarily manual tuning which was happily thrown out completely when the GPS clocking was available. No, nobody can go back now. At least not without some pretty significant down time.
And of course we are working up to a aircraft navigation and control system that will be 100% reliant on GPS. No GPS = planes do not take off. Not just passenger planes but also all air cargo.
Ships at sea used to use LORAN but the US Coast Guard has been dismantling the LORAN system they maintained. I believe it is gone now, so there is no going back.
Most of the stratum-1 NTP clocks (keeping the Internet clocks synchronized) are driven from GPS today. Not atomic reference clocks and not radios receiving WWV signals but GPS. Think about how much fun it is to synchronize databases when the system clocks aren't in agreement.
Are you getting the picture? GPS is used for way, way more than consumer navigation in cars. Lose the GPS system and today there is no backup and no possibility of continuing without some pretty major hiccups.
A lot of people think of GPS as only positioning, but a lot of embedded things pull time through GPS (either PPS for real time, or 10MHz for use as a timebase).
I'm sure there are plenty of things with sloppy code that doesn't exactly fail gracefully when losing GPS, especially for long time periods.
Anyway, another aspect to think about.
Sent from my PDP-11
I believe LORAN is gone. The US Coast Guard used to maintain the system worldwide - a friend of mine was stationed at a LORAN station in both Alaska and later in Japan, but they have shut down so many of the stations (if not all of them now) that is it unusable in many placed. If not all of them.
What are you trying to argue, that people shouldn't be using tools?
Tools should be used, but assumed to sometimes be fallible. Now live by that and you'll probably be fine. :p
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
Are you in danger of using a GPS so much you'll forget how to read a map?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder whether IBTimes pays RedEaredSlider per submission or per word for his work?
In his brief time on Slashdot, RedEaredSlider has submitted many dozens of articles; every single one of them references IBTimes and only IBTimes. I could even forgive a little Roland-Piqepaille-like self promotion, but this pattern of behavior screams paid promotion.
I ask a question in rebuttal: has Slashdot become too reliant on corporate media promoters?
Except that GPS is used for a bunch of other things, one of the biggies being time synchronisation - it's a cheap easy way to know the time. The basically same story from yesterday linked to http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20202-gps-chaos-how-a-30-box-can-jam-your-life.html?page=1 which has this gem:
So the backups failed, because they relied on GPS in ways nobody had bothered to think about.
Thank you
Phone networks - both landline and mobile - use GPS. Without GPS, there's no way to precisely sync up timeslots in TDMA backhaul.
You need a compass and landmarks to determine where on the map you are. Maps are available both laminated and printed on water proof material. This will also be resistant to tearing. Not every map is like the one you got at disneyland last summer.
First, there's no reason why a cell phone tower or an ATM should need GPS data to operate. There are many other ways to get timestamps, and in neither case is the facility likely to move much.
Anything important should have a GPS smart enough to tell when its data is no good. If you can receive from four satellites, you have enough information to tell if the data you're getting is bogus. Life-critical applications like aircraft should receive from GPS, GLONASS, and Galileo, and cross-check.
GPS satellites fail occasionally, and there are occasional gaps in coverage. Also bear in mind that GPS control is very centralized. It's run from Colorado Springs, and if the control center goes down, the constellation becomes inaccurate after a week or so.
we are too reliant on all technology.
If it all breaks down or stops working, we are fucked.
Be seeing you...
Without GPS, there's no way to precisely sync up timeslots in TDMA backhaul.
That sounds a little pessimistic. You mean at this moment there are no deployed time sources that will work.
To keep our morse code circuits aligned (just kidding) we had Cesium clocks, Rb clocks, etc. Cough up the dough and you can have very accurate time.
I'd have to look at the specs, but a really good ovenized xtal might be good enough for TDMA. By really good I don't mean the cheapest dip oscillator money can buy from the cheapest vendor. Think more like the "frequency west bricks" of ye olden days.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
You forgot the period on the end of your sentence. Maybe you should learn to rely on spellcheck.
I will make the same comment I make every time we debate technology's superiority to paper:
I cannot remember the last time my map crashed. It may be inaccurate (but so may GPS), it may be out of date (but so may GPS), it may not be intuitive (but so may GPS). But when I turn too fast and pull the plug out of the lighter socket, my paper map will still work. When some jerk is driving next to me with non-FCC licensed equipment drowning out the GPS band, my paper map will still work. It doesn't call out turns a mile ahead, it doesn't show up-to-the-thirty-minutes-ago traffic, all it does is show me where I am and I can use my brain to figure out where I'm going.
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
It's obvious that you're part of the group who incorrectly thinks GPS is that magic box which tells you were to aim your car. If you'd read ( and understood ) the article you might have seen this one sentence:
In the U.K., on top of satellite navigation, GNSS is used for data networks, financial systems, shipping and air transport, agriculture, railways and emergency services.
The biggest problem if GPS were disrupted would *not* be hoards of tourists stopping to ask for directions.
while LORAN might help
Only via a seance. LORAN is dead. Omega too. Omega was cool. Still have WWVB and WWV out in Colorado.
There is no particular reason why you couldn't re implement GPS using ground mounted atomic clocks and a bunch of towers. Conveniently, we have an infrastructure of cellphone towers neatly mapping with civilization, also providing coverage to big cities.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Is the Royal Academy of Engineering in any way involved with Galileo, the European counterpart/competitor to GPS?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
I believe you are wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
Don't you mean grammar check?
That's Satnav, not GPS. Regardless of what the sign says.
Stars? Luxury! When I was a young'n the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
So we had to develop a Spirit of God (SOG) navigation system. And He kept moving over the surface of the waters, which made it even more difficult. This is still in use today, as some US soldiers will tell you that they are assigned to SOG, but are not allowed to tell you exactly what they do.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
I have ridden horses, I have made clothes and probably could make shoes, I have made fires with flint and tinder and the bow method. Why? Because each of those things taught me something, and it was fun to do. Plus I can fall back on it if I have to.
You need a compass and landmarks to determine where on the map you are.
You've grown too reliant on technology if you need the compass.
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No, it is just the next step down, after that you can fall back to stars or just landmarks, etc. Each step back gets you a little less accuracy and easy of use.
A satnav (which is what you mean, not GPS) safely gives you navigational information whilst driving. A map doesn't unless you have a passenger. You have to stop to safely use a paper map. And that's a problem on a motorway.
For sure, it's a good idea to have a paper map in the glove box in case the satnav lets you down. But so far the satnav has never let me down. Well at least once I worked out that it was best to set it for "fastest" or "most economical", not "shortest".
Critical infrastructure could just use a more sensitive and precise antenna.
I'm not sure what in the grid would require synchronizing based on GPS. It's not like the stations and control centers ever move.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"that will be 100% reliant on GPS"
no they wont.
There are technical solutions for everything thing you mentioned. In any case they should be implementing them now.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
A compass and landmarks MIGHT tell you where you are. But most of the time you'll have to travel a bit before the landmarks give you certainty of where you are. GPS will give you your position where you are far more often.
And that goes 100 fold for people at sea.
Well, there you go again trying to inject facts into a perfectly good discussion about why "technology" is to blame.
Say, is there an open source project for creating road maps? Since GPS information is pretty much available for free, and lots of Android devices have GPSes built in, it seems like the wiki approach would be great for this purpose. Of course, it would require users to be aware of the risks of people vandalizing maps and putting in roads where there are no roads, but I'd be willing to handle that risk. There are ways for increasing the dependability of open source information.
I bet there's already something like this going on, but I'm just too clueless to know about it.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Stars will only give you your latitude, not your longitude. For longitude you also need an accurate time... or a GPS.
And for most parts of the sea there aren't any landmarks.
You just made me google "ovenized", "frequency west bricks" and "xtal".
Thanks.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Which sentence is missing a full stop? Or am I missing a pun or reference or something?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
We relay (sic) on Technology to [do?] the thinking way to (sic) much these days. GPS is just another way to not take person (sic) responsibly (sic).
Grammar checkers are just another way to not take responsibility for our engrish.
Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
Oh dear. I think you just put yourself on a terrorist watch list.
All these systems should have a decent local clock to fall back on. Calibrate a local clock based using gps, and they'll be able to go for a long time before degrading significantly.
I lived in what was then Zaire for three years back in the late 80s. Flew in a significant number of small planes using visual sight rules, maps, compass, etc. Had some close calls when the weather socked in over a dirt airstrip right before we got there, but for the most part it worked just fine.
Yeah, that's a great general rule but it really has nothing to do with GPS.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
just as you thought
The GPS makes no claim to accuracy of the maps they provide.
This is why it would be cool to put trackers on all the cars so that very accurate maps could be automatically drawn and redrawn indicating traffic flow. Oh, but there's that thing...
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Yep, openstreetmap.org.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
A satnav (which is what you mean, not GPS) safely gives you navigational information whilst driving. A map doesn't unless you have a passenger. You have to stop to safely use a paper map. And that's a problem on a motorway.
Satnav is just another way to say "GPS":
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gps
a navigational system using satellite signals to fix the location of a radio receiver on or above the earth's surface; also : the radio receiver so used
You don't see any problems with becoming reliant on receiving realtime directions while having no personal knowledge of where you are and how to get where you are going?
Not really. If there is a freak occurrence and GOS disappears *and* by chance I don't have a map in the glovebox, then I'll just take a best guess until I find somewhere with a map.
The person who walked into traffic because the GPS didn't tell them they weren't in a safe area for pedestrians to waltz across the road should be a warning not an example to follow.
Lets not pretend it takes a GPS for an idiot to get run over by a truck. WIthout a GPS they are even more likely to find themselves lost on a freeway.
I will make the same comment I make every time someone posts this idiotic "rebuttal" to a statement that says "the old version is more reliable".
First, GPS as commonly used by individual, still requires maps. Based on your discussion I'm assuming that you're excluding GPS as a position-fix system and the use of external maps (which may be paper and which function without the GPS unit). Also note that on most GPS units with integrated maps the maps still work even if GPS position fixes are not available, they just lose the "you are here" feature -- i.e. they lose some functionality already not present in paper maps.
So really you're just comparing paper vs silicone as a storage and playback system. This is an argument that's been had many times, and I think most everyone would agree that both forms of storage are have their own advantages and disadvantages, and that both forms of storage are susceptible to some forms of damage or loss -- you can lose or burn both, both need protection from water and other forms of surface abrasion or staining, etc. Silicone requires an external, powered reader. Paper has a much lower storage capacity. If you're going to talk about which one is more reliable you really need to pick a specific scenario. If your requirement is "I cannot be dependent on a powered reader" then paper wins. If your requirement is "I need to store reasonably detailed maps for all of North America in my glove box" than silicone wins. If you have both requirements neither paper nor silicone is appropriate.
Also, a compass can be jammed with a bit of iron and a paper map can be jammed with a bit of jam. And paper maps don't work in the dark, whereas GPS-based system generally include their own illumination.
So if you want to play this "know how do do things the old way" game, try this view of all maps (paper or otherwise) as new and unreliable technology:
Maps can get lost, stained, ripped, burned or otherwise become unreadable or unavailable, but dead reckoning cannot. Dead reckoning can be done without any batteries or light source, while maps and GPS both require some power/light source to be usable. Maps/GPS only work when people have been sent ahead to scout the area, while dead reckoning works so long as you know the relative position of your endpoint, even if you have to go around unknown obstacles. Maps/GPS require the ability to see landmarks or otherwise get a position fix, whereas dead reckoning requires not such external reference.
Clearly anyone using maps instead should also know how to navigate via path integration or some other fully-internalized navigational system, or they risk becoming lost when their fancy new "map" technology fails in some way. Plus I'm not sure this whole "paper" thing is going to catch on anyway, since it's so susceptible to damage compared to other, more established inscription technologies like stone.
Clocks do exist. Even very accurate ones, they get pricey though.
No it's not. And your link does not back you up. GPS just gives you a position on planet earth - Latitude, longitude and possibly elevation. Satnav adds navigation (i.e. maps and routing) to the functionality.
Three main uses of GPS -- nav, position, and standards (time and frequency).
I can connect a GPS antenna on the roof to a small box in the lab and have frequency and time references at an accuracy that previously were limited to national laboratories! (search for Trimble Thunderbolt). When the green lights are on, I've got accuracy on the order of ten to the minus eleven or better.
To the over-reliance claim, when the green lights go off on that box and the red lights go on, I'm back to using the references in each of my lab instruments. More important, the red lights let me know I'm not operating at those higher, known, levels of accuracy.
The "over-reliance" argument is more an argument against not having a Plan B to put into action when Plan A goes down the tubes. Am I "over-reliant" on electric motors because I use an electric shaver in the morning rather than a straight razor? Or because I use a motorized coffee grinder rather than some manually operated device? No, it's a trade-off, and hopefully one I have made knowingly.
I read these types of stories more along the lines of, "Did you know how much you use GPS?",
This is a useful question with lots of technologies as they become ubiquitous. Its a good gut check for some people who don't think about things like what happens if GPS won't work for some reason? Its stupid to not use a tool, after all if you are not going to use it why have the tool at all. Still if you drive places you are not familiar with and use the GPS to get you there that is great but it might be a good idea keep a road atlas under the seat just in case, the sat nav stops working for any reason.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Critical infrastructure could just use a more sensitive and precise antenna.
It's difficult to create an antenna that has good gain straight up and to the horizons (where you find GPS satellites), and no gain at all to terrestrial sources (which could be in a nearby tree or hill that's above the horizon line). At ground level, a GPS signal has a strength of 1 x 10^–16 watts - a 100W (or 10W or even 1W) transmitter a short distance away can easily mask that signal.
I'm not sure what in the grid would require synchronizing based on GPS. It's not like the stations and control centers ever move.
GPS isn't used just for positioning, but also as a "reliable", highly accurate time source.
I believe you are looking for:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
If you've stepped back in technology as far as the compass, as the thread had, then no, clocks do not exist.
whoooooooosh!
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
I believe you are illiterate. Reading the contents of links is even more important than posting them:
"The current LORAN system has been phased out in the United States and Canada. The United States Coast Guard (USCG) and Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) ceased transmitting LORAN-C (and joint CHAYKA) signals in 2010."
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Its important to note, the military has authenticated GPS.
Its only commercial/civilian GPS that can not authenticate the signal.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
According to another fine article I saw yesterday (don't recall where but googling yesterday's news should turn it up), when GPS goes down or gets jammed, cell phones stop working. Apparently they use GPS time signals to synchronize hand-offs between towers or something. Also ATMs stop working (they rely on GPS time stamps for transaction codes, and may use encryption dependent on timestamps obtained by GPS). Also entire electric grids can be brought to their knees (GPS time is used to synchronize phase between different grid segments).
I guess I'll now read TFA to see if it mentions any of this stuff that AFA talked about....
Will
That there are no alternative time sources currently deployed that would work as a backup for GPS strikes me as being a little too optimistic about the situation. Simply knowing that such solutions could be put to work does nothing to bring the level of optimism down to a realistic range.
I suggest that in addition to brushing off the ancient ways of doing things, a little more pessimism needs to be injected into the system.
And remember that Murphy was an optimist.
Will
No it's not. And your link does not back you up. GPS just gives you a position on planet earth - Latitude, longitude and possibly elevation. Satnav adds navigation (i.e. maps and routing) to the functionality.
I don't know if you happened to read the definition I provided, but it does include navigation:
a navigational system using satellite signals to fix the location of a radio receiver on or above the earth's surface
Tell me again what the difference is between "GPS just gives you a navigational system using satellite signals to fix the location of a radio receiver on or above the earth's surface" and what you just said: "a position on planet earth [from satellites] plus navigation (i.e. maps and routing)"
Is navigational system different than navigation?
Perhaps English is not your native language, m-w.com also gives a definition for English learners:
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/GPS
a radio system that uses signals from satellites to tell you where you are and to give you directions to other places
Or maybe your dispute is with the dictionary definition of GPS? That's a valid dispute as I don't believe m-w is the reference standard for English language.
avoid collisions that the job of the signals!
Is it just me, or is using (sic) becoming more and more snarky? Nah, must just be me, I can't imagine grammar and spelling nazi's being snarky.
Reminds me of the marines. A paper map with a bullet hole in it is still a map (slightly less detail). A computer with a bullet in it is a paper weight. Pack accordingly.
(they rely on GPS time stamps for transaction codes, and may use encryption dependent on timestamps obtained by GPS).
i don't think this is true. ATMs often sit on the bottom level of a multistory building in which they can't get GPS signal. so i doubt its a requirement for most ATMs.
Perhaps English is not your native language, m-w.com also gives a definition for English learners:
I'm English. The fact that you are questioning that means you know you've already lost on the facts.
a navigational system using satellite signals to fix the location of a radio receiver on or above the earth's surface
GPS fixes location most certainly. It is a tool to be used for people who are navigating for sure. So long as they also have a map or chart. It does not navigate. However you want to interpret the link you googled.
GPS is a US government system on satellites, and the receivers that give a position. Nothing more. When third parties use the GPS position to give a location on an electronic map, then its sat nav. GPS and sat nav aren't synonyms, and as we're on slashdot, 99% of the people here know that. You're the 1%.
Or maybe your dispute is with the dictionary definition of GPS? That's a valid dispute as I don't believe m-w is the reference standard for English language.
No indeed. It's not even English.
At sea you take special care not to get lost. It's pretty easy actually. First, if you left coastal waters we can assume you have charts, a compass, and a decent clock. This is in addition to any technological measures you have on board. The rest is just good piloting. You mark your starting point and time, and plot from there on out. If you ever fail to do so... you are a dumb ass, which is now lost. If you are old school, you can get by with a sextant and some knowledge, but that's a dying art.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard about someone getting "lost at sea" while still less than 5 miles from shore. The problem isn't reliance on (unreliable) technology. The problem is people are fucking stupid. Like the guy in the slip next to me that has a $250,000 yacht, with every electronic toy you could ask for, 3 radios and a satellite internet link, and he gets lost going from SF bay to the ocean. No, I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. It's happened TWICE.
Here signs are illegible, missing, misleading or nonsensical because of our highly competent (heh-heh) DOT. No road goes in ANY direction here and, as a result, all navigation is point to point. Businesses and people do not put numbers on their houses or buildings. You are screwed without a GPS here.
> It has everything to do with all the other systems using GPS: the thing
> that tracks the location of your important parcel, or keeps the "Next train in
> 5 minutes" indicator accurate, or synchronises the clock on something.
Synchrophasor measurement units, which are being integrated into the power grid for a number of reasons ("smart" and old-fashioned operational as well), are heavily dependent on a GPS timing signal.
sPh
> GPS is a US government system on satellites, and
> the receivers that give a position. Nothing more.
Actually, GPS is also a system that provides an extremely precise timing signal synchronized worldwide. I realize that the availability of such a signal is an essential ingredient of navigation, which is why the US Navy was originally going to call its satellite system "Navstar" (Nav = Navy = Navigation; I hope someday the real story of how the Air Force grabbed control of the project is told). But the precise timing signals, once made available, were and are used for many many things besides navigation. Operating continental electric grids is a good example.
sPh
I didn't Google any link, I looked it up the largest American dictionary. If you want to say "Well, that's not true in the U..K.", then that may be a valid point, but that's not what you said.
Perhaps you'd like the Wikipedia definition better:
GPS: The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a space-based global navigation satellite system (GNSS) that ...
GNSS: Global navigation satellite systems (GNSS) is the standard generic term for satellite navigation systems ("sat nav") that provide autonomous geo-spatial positioning with global coverage.
Or, to paraphrase: GPS is a GNSS, GNSS is a "sat nav", therefore GPS is a "sat nav".
If you really want to be pendantic, then wouldn't it be more correct to say that GPS is a system of orbiting satellites and controlling ground station that provide positioning information to receivers on the ground? Therefore, GPS doesn't provide your position, it's your GPS receiver that provides your position? After all, not all GPS receivers provide your position, some only provide a time signal.
Chose you to respond to, although i could have chose many in this thread. You know, even with the satellites off line, I'd use my gps, just for the map! Always around, searchable. What detractors of gps are missing is that we'd have similar units *even if we had no positioning* //Gps's are the coolest tech out there. Takes almost every branch of science. An everyday modern miracle! Let's not look the gift horse in the mouth too much.
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
Why not? I've had an axe head fly off the handle, a blender motor burn out, and a GPS receiver take 30 minutes to figure out my location. The respective workarounds are to make sure nobody else is near the axe, keep a wire whisk handy, and know how to use a map & compass.
Using secondary solutions is a basic part of robust engineering. With regards to GPS, each piece of GPS-using technology can use an appropriate backup system. For something that only needs to know its approximate position, like tracking a shipped package, the cellular phone network can be used. For ships, LORAN may be acceptable (if not for the fact that it's being shut down in North America). For trains or other vehicles on a fixed route, local beacons or even visual recognition may be sufficient. For all such applications, it may even be acceptable to simply use another satellite navigation system in the future. Regardless, all engineers working on a GPS-using project should be asking themselves "what happens if this fails?" constantly. The results of not asking such questions can be lethal.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Or measure the distance to the moon. With a pre-calculated table(put it on the back of the map) and a sextant(which we used to measure the stars for latitude), it only takes 10-20 minutes.
Also don't forget SONET/SDH, they need very precise timing signals too. Though in this case atomic clocks might be used, as they are getting cheaper and smaller.
technology is not capitalized.
FTFY
Came across a couple of articles recently here and here specifically talking about GPS interference and "dead-zones".
Curious part, is that this technology is APPROVED by the FCC. The frequencies used by LightSquared (1525 MHz—1559 MHz) is just below the GPS frequencies (1559—1610 MHz). While it SHOULDN'T interfere, the power levels used by LightSquared is much higher than the signals from satellites.
cell towers and wimax towers use GPS for timing and synchronization.
And of course we are working up to a aircraft navigation and control system that will be 100% reliant on GPS. No GPS = planes do not take off. Not just passenger planes but also all air cargo.
Yeah they can and will take off they will just have to navigate the old fashioned way with a compass and a watch and a weather briefing that includes winds aloft. EVERY pilot is still taught that basic navigation skill to this day, just the same as I was when I got my pilots certificate.
Ships at sea used to use LORAN but the US Coast Guard has been dismantling the LORAN system they maintained. I believe it is gone now, so there is no going back
Yes LORAN is gone but sun still rises and the stars are pretty much where they should be. All I need is a clock with a known error rate, sextant, chart and a copy of Bowditch.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
"GPS" only tells you where you are. It has no map. You're probably thinking of SatNav, which combines a map with a GPS.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"GPS: The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a space-based global navigation satellite system (GNSS) that ..."
Well, to be true, GPS is obviously *not* a global navigation system or else it would have been GNS; GPS is a global *positioning* system. Of course, being GPS both global and fast makes the transition from positioning to navigation a triviality but it's still not the same.
OK, "lost" in the sense of not knowing your position I can see, but "lost" in the sense of "can't find land" is just crazy, unless you can't see the sky, or you're more than a day trip out to sea.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"I'm not sure what in the grid would require synchronizing based on GPS. It's not like the stations and control centers ever move."
Time. GPS provides not only positioning but accurate time too. And bastardly cheap, for that matter, so it's seen as horridly cost-uneffective to provide a backup, which is exactly the point of the article.
Of course there are known methods to substitute GPS signals but the problem is that they are not in place. Imagine a strong Sun flare brings down the satellites for a week without previous notice. Probably the power grid, wireless communications, international navigation and a lot of others would take quite a strong hiccup with no fast backup in place.
"There are technical solutions for everything thing you mentioned"
Yeah. But are they in place? How much time/money would take to provide with them? Do you think those having to take money from their pockets to provide the backups will willingly do it?
Now, you see the problem, don't you?
Oh dear, you just gave them an idea. Stop that before you get promoted.
Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
...because when GPS inevitably goes down, stupid people will be that much clearer to identify.
-Styopa
A computer with a bullet hole may be a paperweight, but it will deflect/absorb a bullet much better than a paper map.
Duh and/or hello, being snarky is 90% of the reason to use this site.
No megalomaniacal media baron would screw up GPS to cause Britain and China to go to war. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120347/
But pendulums do!
"To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
GPS is about more than just finding your way. The John Deere DB120 seed planter, for example, requires GPS to operate. There are still plenty of conventional planters around today, but as farms continue to expand the technology will be adopted by more and more farmers. What happens if GPS goes down in the spring and large acres of land are not able to be put into crops? That will have a profound affect on your life.
Most industrial dependence on GNSS is as a frequency standard. Standard atomic clocks are too expensive, a good dual frequency GPS received costs about 20% of an atomic clock and outputs a 10MHz clocking source more than good enough. That goes for GNSS dependency on telecommunications, financial institutions. GNSS = All GPS like systems (GPS, Glonass, Galileo, Compass, ...).
Now we have Chip scale atomic clocks which seem to be just as accurate as dual frequency GNSS receivers as a frequency standard. That should eliminate some dependency on GNSS.
WAAS/EGNOS augmented GPS gives 20ft or better accuracy all the time.
In a decade with L5 fully operational, it will give 8ft accuracy all the time.
VOR is dead. DME/DME is worth something, but won't give time, and its only useful for aircraft. But it's accuracy is about 600ft, and lateral positioning only.
What we really need is a ground based GPS pseudo lite network that gives GPS accuracy regardless of GPS signals. Each pseudo lite should broadcast on L5 for line of sight users and on a much lower frequency for non line of sight users.
Killing eLoran was the dumbest decision the Obama administration did in my opinion.
, all it does is show me where I am and I can use my brain to figure out where I'm going.
Err, how does a paper map show you where you are?
Dropbox drops it like it's hot.
But there are commercial applications, too. Suppose you're in a mall, and you want to know how to get from where you are now to the Old Navy store. A forward-thinking mall might provide an app for that.
A forward thinking mall would provide a map for that and not assume that everyone uses the why!?Phone.
I didn't mean it didn't apply to GPS at all, just that as general rule it doesn't apply to GPS any more or any less then it applies to things like axes and blenders.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
In a boat it's not enough just to find land. As you approach land there are lots of underwater obstacles such as rocks, and if you hit them, you're going to damage and possibly sink your boat. So you need to know which bit of land, and either have a chart, or know from experience where the local hazards are.
This seems to be winner at best terrorist attack with upto 30 people and 500000$ 30 terrorist just dispersed in USA launch meteorological baloons with 30$ GPS jammers and see power grid collapse. It is even better than winners 1. Genetically modify corn to produce botulitoxin, plant it at several field and watch americans die as they refuse eat corn 2. Buy copper wires and throw them at power/rail lines. 3. Donate 500000$ to republicans
The ITAR regulations also prevent the design and manufacturing of GPS receivers which reject interference through beam or null steering.
One of the easy technical solutions is beam or null steering which ITAR happens to forbid. As usual, politics is the largest problem.
(Unrelated to parent post)
Using a GPS jammer will really screw up GPS based ticket system at public transports, at least in some cities.
The ticket system for the public transport in Gothenburg, Sweden uses GPS to determine how much a trip costs, and in general people lose money on a frequent basis in that system. A great rip-off since they claim that GPS is infallible.
Another limitation for GPS is that it's not that good when you are in polar regions, the precision is not as good as in warmer areas.
However GPS is a great system too - especially if you are going somewhere the first time. A side effect is that it doesn't take into account that roads may be closed and stuff like that so you may sometimes need to take a detour. And having a real paper map works fine as a backup, but even paper maps has their limit since the resolution is often rather crude.
But to some extent we are getting reliant on GPS as a technology - it doesn't have common sense, and it does contain bad or conflicting information from time to time causing delivery trucks ending up in a backroad in a neighbor town and all kind of stuff like that.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Um, what? Marine chronometers have been around since the 1700's. These are clocks accurate enough to be used for navigation. This technology was not replaced until GPS (although radio solutions were in wide use too - but not always practical at sea - and before that, calculations from the position of the moon). So there's a pretty large time in there where compasses were used for navigation, and clocks existed.
I guess we should go back to looking for moss on the backs of trees.
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Even slashdot is filled with narrow-minded fools. GPS is used for air navigation (they're pulling other guidance systems out of planes, even; if the GPS goes down they fall out of the sky, autopilot sure as hell won't work), power grid synchronization (for the love of god why? Everything here is in a fixed location!), and God knows what else. There's a lot of "do we really need this?" going on, or "This is nice but what about a failsafe?" as we rip out all traces of old methods because the new method is so cool.
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Since Google Maps does not accurately place my house on my street, pizza dude takes an extra 20 minutes to get my food to me.
For the record, it's not that big a street.
Me? I use paper maps.
I think the subtext of the argument is "don't rely on another nation's tools". Not an issue if you're from the USA, but if you're not from the USA this is a bigger issue of concern. Your shipping, military, directed vehicles etc are all dependent on another government's political and military preferences. If you have a different opinion from the USA, you could be in big trouble. And you don't have a vote in how the USA wants to guide its policies.
This is one of the big reasons why the EU and Russia want to build their own GPS-like systems, they want sovereign control over satellite guidance, not to be dependent on how much the Americans like them on any particular day.
This is not really correct. CDMA for example is not really affected. GSM doesn't need it that accurate and for the most part does not use GPS time signals, not to mention that they do have good local clocks and PPL. There are some methods that use it, but IIRC they don't really *need* it.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
But, did you know that the 60Hz synchronization of electrical generation in the US is reliant on GPS clocks?
Sounds like BS to me. First it makes more sense to synchronize to the power lines them selfs, via a PLL or what not. Second we had power grids long before GPS. Third, its trivial to show that the 60Hz single from the socket is only very approximately 60Hz. It has high levels of drift, which means you *can't* synchronize to with a different timebase, you should sync to what you need syned... a PLL(Phase Locked Loop) on the 60Hz grid signal itself.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
self-reliance is treason against the corporate state.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
What is that, some sort of telecom microwave repeater site?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
We had Omega on a couple of ships I was on, and... it never worked. LORAN was cool if you were close enough to shore, Transit was (usually) good for a couple of fixes a day, but I don't recall ever, ever getting an Omega fix.
This wouldn't be world-wide, though, unless you could convince a bunch of other countries to play along. And that might be a hard sell: countries interested in their own nav systems are already building satellite constellations (GLONASS, Gallileo), or just free-riding on GPS.
Most of these effects don't have anything to do with the position of the equipment involved - it has to do with timing. Keeping power stations all in the same phase is critically dependent on knowing *exactly* what time it is. GPS does that very well.
In a way, I agree with the GP, though - a sense of perspective is warranted. GPS is relatively easy to jam... over a small area. So sure, maybe your local airport will have schedule disruptions, or maybe your local power plant will go offline. Those are indeed bad things. But individual power plants and airports have problems all the time, and life goes on. What's not easy to do is bring down the ENTIRE GPS system. Jammers can screw things up locally, but it's not as if our entire national air traffic system will go on the blink after being attacked by a few soda-can GPS jammers.
The US military can't simply "turn off the satellites you're using". For one thing, I'm not sure it's even possible to switch them off. Further, the satellites are not geosynchronous, so they'd have to continually be switching satellites on and off as they rose over your home territory, and that would blind huge swathes of the world (including the US military itself). The only conceivable thing they could do is turn selective availability back on, and that doesn't degrade the position all that much. The DoD has also agreed that they will not use SA anymore because it pisses off the FAA too badly.
I think you can breathe easy with respect to continued use of GPS - denying it to certain parts of the world is such a pain in the ass that I doubt it would ever be done.
That must be why we've never had a train collision in the age of signals! Dude, seriously. Signals are not that great of a way to prevent collisions.
Polaris had an inertial nav system that was initialized by a star fix. I believe some of the Russian ICBMs worked the same way.
... when it's cloudy. My first deployment in the Navy we had a casualty to our Transit system while enroute from Hawaii to Samoa. No problem, we'll just do celestial nav. Except it was cloudy... for days. We had to dead reckon for like 3 days before we got a fix. Luckily we weren't too far off track, but you can get really screwed up.