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US Contemplating 'Vehicle Miles Traveled' Tax

dawgs72 writes "This week the Congressional Budget Office released a report saying that taxing people based on how many miles they drive is a possible option for raising new revenues, and that these taxes could be used to offset the costs of highway maintenance. The proposed tax would be enforced through the use of electronic metering devices installed on all vehicles. The mileage tax is being considered instead of an increase in the gas tax in order to tax hybrids, EVs, and conventional automobiles equally."

135 of 1,306 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds like a headache by rwa2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, um, how are they going to split that between county, state, and federally-funded roads?

    Infrastructure is infrastructure. Everyone benefits from having it. Putting this kind of administrative overhead on it just makes it more expensive *and* takes away the benefit.

    I think the real problem is that people mostly can't afford to live close to where they work. This leads to a lot of inefficiency, as they waste lots of time and energy driving back and forth from their cheap suburbs to the higher rent districts that pay just barely enough to survive if you live a neighborhood a tier or two away. Relatively cheap transportation sorta creates this situation, but there has got to be better ways to solve this than by making transportation more expensive with all of this metering equipment.

    Make cities denser, cheaper, more accessible to families with better schools & playgrounds, etc. Get rid of suburban sprawl by zoning more parks and greenways. Maybe build some summer cottages / timeshares so people can still get away "to the country". Done! All the other countries are doing it :-P

    1. Re:Sounds like a headache by morgauxo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So the government would be getting into the timeshare business then?

      Also, how do you keep crime down as you increase population density? The most populated places near me are also the scariest.

      Would you offer people money to move? I'm not just talking moving costs, I'm talking mortgage buyouts. A mass migration from the suburbs to the cities would break any family that still owed a significant amount on their mortgage. Who would buy their houses? They can't all become government owned timeshares can they?

    2. Re:Sounds like a headache by metlin · · Score: 3

      The real problem is that people want sprawling houses, and are not comfortable living in smaller places.

      I mean, why bother living in a small apartment downtown when I can get a sprawling, waste of space out in the 'burbs, and drive 20 miles each way?

      People raise kids in NYC and in other big cities. You can just put your kids in a private school, and they can take the train or the bus to get to where they want.

      No, I think this is a great idea. Some of us ride bikes and take buses and trains. And we do not live out in suburbs, and even live in neighborhoods which are well connected with good, public transportation.

    3. Re:Sounds like a headache by bberens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We already pay for infrastructure with fuel taxes and by paying for vehicle registrations. If we need more money for infrastructure we have the facilities in place to raise revenue for infrastructure: raise fuel and registration taxes. This is good because it encourages energy efficiency and smaller vehicles for the consumer (which also cause less wear and tear). This is just a case of some vendor making a product and trying to get millions of units sold and/or more big brother. Take your pick.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    4. Re:Sounds like a headache by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The real problem is that people want sprawling houses, and are not comfortable living in smaller places.

      And how is that a problem?

      Ah, because governments don't want people getting what they want, they want to force the proles to live in Stalinist apartment blocks while only the Polibureau get houses in the country.

    5. Re:Sounds like a headache by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because my "sprawling" 1280 sq ft. home in the suburbs (where I ride the bus 20 miles each way) costs me $723/month whereas rent would be over $1000/month and a mortgage would be well in excess of $1000/month in the city?

    6. Re:Sounds like a headache by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can't. It's a size issue. this idea of everyone living in a city is absurd.

      Sure you can - It just takes city planners with vision. Look at these pictures from my city (Vancouver, Canada). I have lots of friends raising families in the city, with parks, schools, supermarkets nearby and all walkable.

      http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2734/4112965898_7112701b00.jpg

      http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/08/70/45/400_F_8704550_q9V0W99I76eCkun4RbXmAi8sjTieGEix.jpg

      The buildings you see in those pictures are all residential.

    7. Re:Sounds like a headache by HockeyPuck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Get rid of suburban sprawl by zoning more parks and greenways.

      Hmm then you won't have any space in the cities for people to live. Plus as one of those that lives in suburbia, I like having a backyard to bbq in, grow a garden, throw a ball with my kid or sit on my patio watching the birds in my birdfeeder.

      If I lived in an apartment/condo highrise, I won't have those aspects to the quality of my life. Sure there are rooftop gardens and community parks. But when you live in a highrise with a 1000 other people, how much space on the rooftop garden can you reasonably get? Btw, I also have windows on all four sides of my house, which is wonderful for the indoor plants without using grow lights.

      Btw, what are the prices of a condo in NYC that overlook Central Park? I bet it's quite a bit more than my humble home in suburbia.

    8. Re:Sounds like a headache by Firehed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to mention that not everyone wants to live in a city. My dad commutes an hour each way to/from work simply because my parents wanted to live somewhere rural and quiet, and actually have some land. Both my brother and I are out of school so that's irrelevant; it has nothing to do with the practicality of living in a city. A lot of people just hate that kind of environment. If they wanted to live near the office they could afford to do so, they just don't want that.

      A better investment would be improving other infrastructure so that telecommuting is more practical. Maybe not five days a week (for most people, it's very hard to keep on task without spending at least a day a week in the office), but even if it's only useful one day a week you're still removing 20% of the commuting. Never mind that people will be happier because they can spend more time with their kids/spouses/etc, not wasting their own time driving around, and can avoid at least some office politics. And, oh yeah, we have better communications infrastructure, which helps us stay relevant to the rest of the world.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    9. Re:Sounds like a headache by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      Uhh... the problem they think they're resolving with this is that vehicles are expected to continue using ever smaller quantities of taxed fuel, even no petroleum at all in some circumstance. Do you really believe that they'll stop at millage meters on cars if they find people are using bicycles and/or public transportation?

      I do think it's a great way to level the playing field between gas guzzlers (the ones that tear up the road the most) and more efficient vehicles. How dare the less wasteful, lighter footprint vehicles get a tax advantage!

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    10. Re:Sounds like a headache by rwa2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Meh, I think it's kinda absurd that everyone would live in a contiguous suburban metropolitan complex that extends from Virginia to Maine, and commute an hour each way to work, and consume 20-40 gallons of gas a week between two vehicles just to keep up with the nominal pace of life. Yet here we are.

      It's kinda sad that people haven't really figured out how to get along in close proximity with each other, that we've kind of moved from huts and even row houses to single family detached homes with picket fences, and we still sick the HOA on each other at every opportunity. But that's a political problem, and one that probably deserves a political solution, or better yet a diplomatic one (does anyone even do diplomacy these days? or is that considered "weak"?).

      Anyway, this whole suburban sprawl problem was more or less inadvertently created by the Eisenhower Interstate System anyway, where it made it cheaper to build out instead of up. So everyone who could afford to (by all this new infrastructure) left the city for the rolling meadows (clear-cutting the trees and naming the streets after them when necessary) the US cities were kinda left to rot and decay. But the city still has the draw of industry and business around what little pieces of "cultural" core remained, maybe surrounded by a few layers of impoverished neighborhoods that couldn't make the rush and were abandoned by the more affluent tax base. And now that the interstates are clogged up (including all of the extra "interstates" they built to deal with the extra rush-hour-only load), the problem is finally bad enough for people to start successfully promoting "smart growth" initiatives, where population centers build up around mass transit instead of out.

      In any case, I think the problem is more about how we build our living/working arrangements, rather than our transportation system (which had no small part in determining how our living/working arrangements got so screwed up in the first place). But tweaking the transportation system probably isn't going to directly address the real problem of being too spread out and wasting too much resources and energy crossing acres of dull suburban wasteland to get to the few places worth going to.

    11. Re:Sounds like a headache by Golddess · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is just a case of some vendor making a product and trying to get millions of units sold and/or more big brother.

      Oh no doubt, as there is already a perfectly good method* of getting the kind of information they require. But I think you missed a part in TFS.

      The mileage tax is being considered instead of an increase in the gas tax in order to tax hybrids, EVs, and conventional automobiles equally.

      *Vehicles already have odometers, and don't all states require periodic emissions inspections? If they really wanted to tax based on actual miles traveled, they can just copy down the mileage then.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    12. Re:Sounds like a headache by AxemRed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not all of us can afford a decent quality apartment downtown, let alone a private school for our kids. And not all of us live in cities with decent public transit. I live in a house in the suburbs mostly because it was my best option for my money.

    13. Re:Sounds like a headache by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't. It's a size issue. this idea of everyone living in a city is absurd.

      Of course you can, but local and city zoning regulations force developers to limit the number of stories and units in their developments (tall buildings are ugly!), how much of their land they can use for building and how much must be allocated to set-backs (green space!), how much of the land can be developed for mixed-use and commercial (usually none), how much of the land must be allocated for parking, and on and on. Some of these rules have a legitimate purpose but most of the time it's NIMBYism on planning boards and city councils, trying to force a town to look like an artificial 1950s ideal of what a suburb should be, without regard for what people want to buy, where they want to live and work, what developers want to build, and what would save everyone money.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    14. Re:Sounds like a headache by Infernal+Device · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The real problem is that people want sprawling houses, and are not comfortable living in smaller places.

      That's a pretty gross generalization.

      I mean, why bother living in a small apartment downtown when I can get a sprawling, waste of space out in the 'burbs, and drive 20 miles each way?

      This depends on the conditions in the downtown area. In my experience, a house in the suburbs is considerably cheaper than an apartment downtown.

      People raise kids in NYC and in other big cities. You can just put your kids in a private school, and they can take the train or the bus to get to where they want.

      Only if you're made of money. The vast majority of people would not be able to afford a private school for their children.

      No, I think this is a great idea. Some of us ride bikes and take buses and trains. And we do not live out in suburbs, and even live in neighborhoods which are well connected with good, public transportation.

      Terrific. Now bring that to my city and we might sign on to it. But don't hold your breath - the politics behind public transportation are such that the people who actually need are usually the ones who can't afford it and politicians are loathe to do anything that actually affects rich people.

      --
      "My God...it's full of trolls!"
    15. Re:Sounds like a headache by RCGodward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't forget, if this comes, there will be no more fuel tax.

      Riiiiight...

    16. Re:Sounds like a headache by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      Well that's one world view... I'm pretty sure that's not what anyone was really suggesting though. It was an assertion that a large representation within the American culture have a preference towards highly inefficient lifestyles. For instance it is not uncommon for people here to work in urban centers, yet live well outside in rural areas. Each day they commute--typically driving their own vehicles, usually not very efficient ones such as trucks and SUVs--seldom car pool, and do so in excess of 50 miles each way every day. Is it their right? Sure. Is it a good idea? Probably not.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    17. Re:Sounds like a headache by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Land in a city is hugely expensive. The temptation for someone to demolish the park and build an office complex is great, both for private developers and for the local government eager to see the land generating tax rather than demanding upkeep.

    18. Re:Sounds like a headache by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's fine - if you don't want to live in a city, you'll pay a bit more for infrastructure, and things will be further away (duh). We currently subsidise rural/suburbia, and that will have to stop (so we can make improvements in the city). Meanwhile, telecommuting is perfectly reasonable in a lot of places, but the management is often the roadblock. Perhaps if you bribed them somehow... subsidise parking based on the number of people that switch to 4 day weeks? If it's less than the projected cost savings, then win-win!

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    19. Re:Sounds like a headache by DalDei · · Score: 2

      Time to tax Bike Miles and Public Transport Miles. They all take a toll on our infrastructure.

    20. Re:Sounds like a headache by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The real problem is that cities offer higher crime, worse public schools, more noise, less privacy, worse traffic -- all that and a higher $/sqft to boot. If I wanted to live in a claustrophobia inducing space, listen to all of my neighbors' arguments, enjoy little or no natural surroundings, fight over parking spots, and do my laundry off-site, I'd live at the office.

      Cities are great if you're young enough that the social life makes up for it, or rich enough that you can isolate yourself from the downsides, but for pretty much everyone else cities are the worst of what's available.

    21. Re:Sounds like a headache by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      Using the bus for a 20mi commute isn't the same as the 50mi+ driving an SUV each way person, which is very common, and what is usually being spoken to when such statements are made. Perhaps the GP is being a bit extreme but American's do have a bit of a waste problem.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    22. Re:Sounds like a headache by frosty_tsm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The mileage tax is being considered instead of an increase in the gas tax in order to tax hybrids, EVs, and conventional automobiles equally.

      *Vehicles already have odometers, and don't all states require periodic emissions inspections? If they really wanted to tax based on actual miles traveled, they can just copy down the mileage then.

      I find this reason ironic because for half a decade they were handing out incentives for hybrid owners. But that's just how government works I guess.

    23. Re:Sounds like a headache by w_dragon · · Score: 2

      Why not put a few office buildings in the suburbs? Wouldn't that make a lot more sense? Why do you need the massive business density in the city core for things like software?

    24. Re:Sounds like a headache by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's an interesting tangent you take. So you are saying the idea that people want to raise their families in suburbs has to do with racism? Wow. Quite a conclusion you jump to there. But in defence of "white people" everywhere I have to say this:

      Even black city cab drivers don't [prefer] to pick up black passengers. That can't be just "racism" as much as it is a belief that they are dangerous or otherwise untrustworthy. That reputation, even amongst themselves, has to have come about somehow. Regardless of any given causes or sources, there is a general fear of black people based on their reputations for crime and violence. I am not saying it is deserved or to be believed. I am saying the reputation exists. Is it racism? Tough call. I can say that as a person who is discriminated against based on his ethnicity as well as his sex that it's "not fair" but I have no defence against it -- white males are also presumed evil and predetermined to be untrustworthy in many circles.

    25. Re:Sounds like a headache by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Sure, but you have to tear everything down first. Put people out of their homes, businesses out of business. Essentially, you're asking for OCP to come in and tear down Cadillac Heights to build you Delta City. I saw that movie, it sucked.

    26. Re:Sounds like a headache by KingMotley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, that might work for little cities like Vancouver.

      Now try the same thing with the city I am from (Chicago, IL), with 6 times that population. You can't just take your 30ish story buildings and turn them into 180 story buildings. Nor will you have enough space for grocery stores 6 times the size, nor will the parks accommodate 6 times the number of people, roads accommodating 6 times the number of cars, buses, trains, etc.

    27. Re:Sounds like a headache by hoggoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      > Because my "sprawling" 1280 sq ft. home in the suburbs (where I ride the bus 20 miles each way) costs me $723/month whereas rent would be over $1000/month and a mortgage would be well in excess of $1000/month in the city?

      Where is this? Idaho?
      Here in New York rent or mortgage is certainly over $3,000/mo.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    28. Re:Sounds like a headache by Stargoat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The use of petrol is a detriment to our society. Those who use less of it should be rewarded and those who use more of it punished. There definitely needs to be petrol excise taxes.

      The detriment is environmental and military. We maintain an enormous navy to protect the supply routes from the Middle East to Europe, China, Japan, and United States. We maintain an enormous Marine Corp to ensure that any oil producing country that threatens these supplies will be dealt with. We maintain an enormous Air Force to supply and support that Marine Corp. We maintain an enormous Army..... well, I'm not sure why we maintain an enormous Army, probably to support the Marine Corp with slightly less well trained and qualified soldiers.

      The environmental detriments are obvious, although they are improving significantly. If we could get some more SUV commuters off the roads, we'd be better yet.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    29. Re:Sounds like a headache by Surt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not really fair to call it NIMBY ... that's disparaging, and usually applies to people who are opposed to things for irrational reasons. What you're dealing with is people who have actually already paid into a system, expecting to get a certain low-density quality of life, and then later people chasing after that quality demanding the right to increase the density to suit themselves. That's why people who have established something that they like write it into the laws to protect their investments.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    30. Re:Sounds like a headache by mozumder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Crime doesn't come from density, but from poor people.

      Manhattan has surprisingly low crime now that rent starts at $1800/month, instead of $80/month like it used to be in the 70's.

    31. Re:Sounds like a headache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The real problem is that people want sprawling houses, and are not comfortable living in smaller places.

      And how is that a problem?

      Ah, because governments don't want people getting what they want, they want to force the proles to live in Stalinist apartment blocks while only the Polibureau get houses in the country.

      People who drive large distances to work use lots of government subsidized resources. More cars on the road means we have to build and maintain larger highways. We need more emergency service providers (EMS, police, firefighters) to cover a larger area. Our economy becomes more sensitive to oil prices, because people who drive an hour to work each way suddenly feel poorer when oil prices rise. America's foreign policy has to be crafted to ensure we can get oil as a reasonable cost, and the price of the military it takes to make that policy effective is where about a third of your federal tax dollars are going.

      The choices people make have real costs, and the people complaining that they don't want the government to tell them what to do tend to be the same people who complain that the government takes and spends too much of their money. There are no free lunches. Comparing the US to Russia under Stalin because a US citizen uses his first amendment right to question the wisdom of the way cities are planned is the reason no libertarian will be elected to national office in my lifetime.

    32. Re:Sounds like a headache by erroneus · · Score: 2

      I kinda get what you are feeling, but in reality, the government DOES want people getting what they want. The happiest people are the easiest to control and manage. This is true in prison as it is true in society. "No way" all you like, but happy people don't protest, don't demonstrate, don't riot and certainly don't attempt to oust their leaders from office.

    33. Re:Sounds like a headache by tycoex · · Score: 2

      Maybe he actually wants his kids to get an education? :)

    34. Re:Sounds like a headache by citylivin · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Look at these pictures from my city (Vancouver, Canada). I have lots of friends raising families in the city"

      Are you fucking kidding me?

      Perhaps if your friends are super rich they can afford to live in vancouver city proper. MOST people with kids live in the suburbs, unless they live in their parents old house or some other stroke of luck. There was even an article on it in the tyee recently: Vancouvers Downtown Chases out kids

      Not to mention the fact that EVERYONE drives in the lower mainland.. EVERYONE.. Taking the transit is simply not an option as its between 3.75 to 5.00 each way from any suburb. Which is MORE than it costs for gasoline on the same trip, even with gas being 1.31/L currently. Source

      Vancouver is HORRIBLY designed. We have very poor density compared to many other urban centres, with sprawling "vancouver special" houses which are built wide, not tall due to regulations. You have these choke points of bridges which clog up and waste tonnes of time every day. Even in my 7km commute to downtown (read BARELY in the suburbs), generally takes an 30-45 minutes in rush hour. And thats using plenty of shortcuts.

      Now these condos you mentioned, from your image it looks to be olympic village. Want to know what it costs to live there? Go take a look: Olympic Village Pricing. You will see that it costs 500k -1M for a 2 bedroom 800sqft apartment in your "city planners with vision" utopia. How the fuck is that affordable for a family???
      Sure if you think its a good idea to raise a family in an 800sqft shoebox with only concord pacifics Ãvisionà of "shared green space" (2 acres for like 10k people to relax in) Source. But honestly, i think you are rich, terribly deluded, dont have kids over 4 years old, or simply misinformed.

      The bottom line is that you are wrong to use vancouver as a good model of anything sustainable or affordable. Vancouver, where you cant get a 1200sqft house for under 850k. Vancouver, where there is a whole site making fun of the fact that you cant tell million dollar houses from crack house.

      Vancouver has a LONG way to go before it is hospitable to families or even pedestrians! When was the last time you walked to surrey from downtown? To burnaby? To richmond?

      --
      As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    35. Re:Sounds like a headache by Ruprecht+the+Monkeyb · · Score: 2

      Vancouver is more expensive than Boston, Washington, DC, San Francisco and Chicago (actually, more expensive than any US city except New York).. It's certainly possible to live in those areas with public transportation, local parks, schools, and supermarkets. But you've got to be rich or live in the crappy part of town.

      If you make it desirable to live there, you're going to drive prices up to the point where only the well-to-do can afford it. But the well-to-do aren't going to mow the lawns, clean the toilets, haul the garbage, or teach the kids. So you end up forcing the people that will do those jobs out to the suburbs. .

      The result is places like San Francisco that can't hire teachers, because they can't afford to live near their schools. And since they can't get good teachers, the families with kids are fleeing to the suburbs. Or Washington, D.C., which is on the verge of not being a majority-black city because gentrification is driving up property values. They've had to abandon residency requirements for municipal employees because they couldn't fill vacancies anymore, so even trying to force people to live in cities doesn't work. People are willing to accept a certain degree of misery in their daily commute in exchange for larger homes, bigger yards, better schools, and less crime. If someone is already willing to live with a 2-hour commute each way, there's not much you can do to punish him further.

    36. Re:Sounds like a headache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      But that's because there's a supply-demand issue. Everyone wants to live in the city, but there is limited housing.

      Over here in Germany, the number of multi-family housing (apartment blocks) are tremendous, and all over the place in the cities. Most every shop, store, building, has tons of residential housing (varying from 1, 2, 3 or 4 bdrs) on top. And because there is so much available, it's really cheap to be living in dense housing in the city, close to the trains, and the parks, and the shops (which are sometimes just downstairs). My rent is 250€/mo here, much much cheaper than renting out in the suburbs.

    37. Re:Sounds like a headache by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>>The use of petrol is a detriment to our society. Those who use less of it should be rewarded and those who use more of it punished.

      Having been an environmentalist at one point, I can tell you that BEING ALIVE is a detriment to society. Humans produce tons and tons of pollution each year. Other forms of energy also causes damage, as does food production (especially meat), and human waste products (urine, feces,methane), and the draining of water supplies/lakes/rivers. It makes no logical sense to pick on petrol as "evil" while ignoring all the other dangerous pollutants/impacts caused by homo sapiens.

      If you don't believe me, just consider how much pollution would be reduced if only 30 million humans were in the US. It would basically be a non-issue. (No I'm not some kind of nut advocating genocide. It's a thought experiment.)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    38. Re:Sounds like a headache by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
      I think a bigger question is this:

      What part of the constitution gives the Federal Govt. the power to require all of this?!?!?

      How are they going to bastardize the interstate commerce clause to force this piece of shit regulation on the states and the citizens of each state?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    39. Re:Sounds like a headache by qbzzt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How are they going to bastardize the interstate commerce clause to force this piece of shit regulation on the states and the citizens of each state?

      They won't require it. They'll just threaten to withhold interstate funding from any state that refuses to comply.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    40. Re:Sounds like a headache by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Try Seoul. Try Frankfurt. Try Tokyo. Big cities have been done successfully, Americans just don't understand them. The main reason is that the American still includes a house with a picket fence and a yard. Of course that doesn't work after certain population densities are reached. The solution to this is to understand that there's nothing magical about owning a house.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    41. Re:Sounds like a headache by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They won't require it. They'll just threaten to withhold interstate funding from any state that refuses to comply.

      You know...at what point are the people and the states going to get pissed off and put a STOP to us giving so much $$ to the Feds only to allow them to used it to blackmail us?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    42. Re:Sounds like a headache by RobertM1968 · · Score: 2

      Make cities denser, cheaper, more accessible to families with better schools & playgrounds, etc.

      You can't. It's a size issue. this idea of everyone living in a city is absurd.

      Bullshit. The only problem is that cities tend to have *gasp* BLACK PEOPLE in them, and we simply can't have THAT!

      No, the only problem is that cities generally tend to have people like YOU in them. And sadly, it's not legal to euthanize you... yet.

    43. Re:Sounds like a headache by green1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the problem is that people living in those sprawling houses aren't usually willing to pay the true costs to do so.

      I have no problem with people having the sprawling mansion in the country. What I have a problem with is that I have to pay for them to do so. I pay the same amount per month for garbage collection, recycling, water, and sewer that they do, but the cost to deliver those services actually costs less to my house closer in than it does to theirs further out.

      This is why my taxes go up every single year, and by more than inflation. It's because the taxes paid by those in the new communities on the outskirts of the city do not cover the costs associated with providing them the services, so they raise everyone's taxes to compensate.

      Live wherever you like, live in whatever type of house you like. But don't pass your costs on to me.

    44. Re:Sounds like a headache by lgw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not to characterize your views, but it's amazing to me how many Shashdotters believe that road costs should be billed by usage, but medical costs should be born by everyone.

      News flash: we all use the roads more indirectly, by the trucks that bring goods to the stores we shop at (or our doors), than we do in individual driving. Trying to bill by mile or gallon or whatever is just an excuse for more government employees and more intrusion by the government into your day-to-day activities. The % of the income taxes that you pay that goes to road building is just too small to sweat these sorts of details (unless your actual goal is government intrusiveness, of course).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    45. Re:Sounds like a headache by pnuema · · Score: 2

      And how is that a problem?

      It's not, as long as they don't expect me to subsidize their choice. I live in a house about half the size I could afford if I moved 30 miles outside of the city, but as it is now, I live less than 3 miles from work. Meanwhile, all of the douchebags that are moving to the suburbs to live in cookie cutter houses they can't afford are forcing the DOT to build massive highway expansions that I have to pay for. Pay your own way, assholes.

    46. Re:Sounds like a headache by RajivSLK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is it racism? Tough call

      No it's not a though call. That is the very definition of racism you bigot. Just because you think blacks are doing it to other blacks doesn't make it less racist.

      Racism: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

      Let me define the problem for you because you and everyone who has modded you up seem to be retarded. Take yourself, whoever you are, and changed your skin color to black. You are the exact same person as you were before however, now a taxicab won't stop for you and that job you have will no longer be available to you. That's fucking racism and anybody who defends this state of affairs is a bigot. period.

      You have no control over how other black people act and you have no control over you skin color and you should not be judged on that basis.

    47. Re:Sounds like a headache by knight24k · · Score: 2

      The detriment is environmental and military. We maintain an enormous navy to protect the supply routes from the Middle East to Europe, China, Japan, and United States. We maintain an enormous Marine Corp to ensure that any oil producing country that threatens these supplies will be dealt with. We maintain an enormous Air Force to supply and support that Marine Corp. We maintain an enormous Army..... well, I'm not sure why we maintain an enormous Army, probably to support the Marine Corp with slightly less well trained and qualified soldiers.

      Not to pic nits...ok I am going to pick because the Air Force does NOT support the Marines. The Marines have their own aircraft and can support themselves. The Marines are also part of the Department of the Navy so they can draw on Navy aircraft as well. I could care less about your opinions about why we have each branch but at least get the little things right. The Marines are self contained, for the most part. They are their own supply, air support and ground. Which is one of the reasons they are usually the first ones sent in. There is no need to coordinate with multiple departments, just call up your Marine guard dog, point in a direction and say sic 'em. Oh, and it's Marine Corps not Corp.

      Semper Fi

    48. Re:Sounds like a headache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If "your thing" includes getting your own oil from the ground, refining it into gasoline, and disposing of all your waste products without negatively impacting me or anyone else, then, yeah, do your own thing, I don't give a damn.

      When you drive by my house on your way to work, clogging up my roads that I use, polluting the air that I breathe, consume gas from my station and electricity from my power plant, and eat food from my grocery store - then I start to care, a little.

      When 300 million of "you" start doing it, it might be time to consider a few laws about how it's done and whether it makes sense for people who live in close proximity to work, school, jobs, groceries and recreation to be subsidizing people who drive 2000 miles a month with free roads, cheap gas, free license to pollute, etc.

    49. Re:Sounds like a headache by hoggoth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Shitheads from New York City (unlike the normal people in the northern part of that state) seem to view NYC == World.

      At least we don't think everyone else is a "Shithead".

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    50. Re:Sounds like a headache by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 2

      $1900/month for childcare for two kids? That's insane! That's $22,800/year, 2/3 of the median income in the US, how do people afford to have childcare over there? It seems like the cost of having the kids in childcare would eat up most of the second income in a family with two working parents, and most single parents would have no chance of affording childcare...

    51. Re:Sounds like a headache by ryanov · · Score: 2

      That's complete bullshit, unsupportable, and backwards.

    52. Re:Sounds like a headache by ryanov · · Score: 2

      So you want to live far apart from other people and want to do it, presumably, without paying the costs. Sorry, can't have it both ways.

      People have a very screwed up mindset in this country where they refuse to take the bus because they might have to run into "other people," don't talk to their neighbors, and so on. It's not healthy for anyone.

    53. Re:Sounds like a headache by ryanov · · Score: 2

      Because there is no way to create an efficient transit system doing that, meaning everyone needs to drive to everything. That's the way it is now, essentially, and it's pretty fucked up.

    54. Re:Sounds like a headache by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      While there is no need anymore to live next to the factory, there are immense benefits to live next to the supermarket, the school, a business center with locksmiths, plumbers, etc. Furthermore, living bunched together reduces environmental problems because there are many economies of scale to be achieved (travel being just the most obvious of them).

      Dilution is very well a mitigation for pollution, but it certainly is not a solution. Living farther apart from each other might reduce the amount of pollution found in one place, but the increase in logistics to support a thinly distributed population increases the overall amount of pollution generated. Does one cancel out the other? I don't know, but the problem of pollution is definitely not solved by just spreading out.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    55. Re:Sounds like a headache by Totenglocke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, suburbs were built because people wanted to get away from the noise, crime, pollution, and cost of city life. I'm going to take a guess and say you went to college and probably lived in a dorm - remember how crappy that was? Do you really want to live essentially that same existence for the rest of your life just because you have some irrational idealized version of cities in your head?

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    56. Re:Sounds like a headache by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Right, that's why you live in a country where the government actually works for the people most of the time, instead of a fascist country like the USA where all the government cares about is keeping their corporate benefactors happy.

      Obviously, Canada doesn't have such problems, as we can see from the OP's pictures of Vancouver. I've been there several times and it's a wonderful city, and puts US cities to shame. The downtown area is even very nice, safe, and fun to wander around, unlike US cities where you have to worry about being shot at and everything is dilapidated.

    57. Re:Sounds like a headache by RajivSLK · · Score: 2

      If a taxi driver doesn't stop for people who dress like gangsters that's fine. If a greater proportion of those people are black then that's fine too. Go ahead and judge people by the way they dress or act or talk. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't do that. However, two people who look similar apart from their skin color should be treated similarly. If you are hiring people go ahead a judge them by their education- if there are no educated black people applying then don't hire them. However, you don't want to live in a world where a baby born black has less opportunity than anyone else. Racism limits a persons before they even have a chance to prove themselves. A society where everyone has a chance to reach their full potential is a much better place to live. More doctors, lawyers, teachers and all around productive people; fewer criminals and gang members.

      That doesn't happen when some looks at a black person and says I'm not going to hire that guy because statistically he less educated and more likely to steal stuff. I'm not racist is statistics! No statistics aren't racists. Using them to generalize and judge an individual because people with his skin color are statistically more likely to have certain traits is racist. That is just justifying racism. Regardless of the statistics and which "category" someone falls into each person is entitled to be judged as an individual based upon their own character and their own achievements.

      Instead crowing about statistics and using them to justify avoiding and discriminating against black people maybe you should be working to ensure that black people are treated equally- so a black person who is educated and productive like yourself has as easy a time finding a job and gets equal pay to yourself. So that his children can live in a nice area with schools that are properly funded and can grow up to be productive members of society and the leaders of tomorrow. And young black people from his community can see his success and realize by example that this is a path available to them. More of them will go to college and get good jobs themselves and you'll have better statistics and less to complain about.

    58. Re:Sounds like a headache by vux984 · · Score: 2

      Yeah Vancouver has monthly passes too, which really should be considered in any assessment of transit. A 3 zone pass (which is what you generally need to get from the suburbs to down town) is $151/month.

      I calculate my car expenses as "Car+Insurance+Repairs+Gas" not just "Gas" because doing it this way illustrates that owning a car is WAY more expensive than taking public transit

      But that forumula almost presumes you can do without a car entirely, which most of us can't. So for most of us the car is present either way so that's a wash. The insurance drops if you downgrade it to pleasure from commuter, and repairs/gas go down in proportion to the mileage you drive. Its a bit more complex but more realistic.

      The trouble with transit in vancouver is that its generally a LOT slower for most people, the skytrain works great if you happen to live and work near terminals... but as soon as you are bussing to it at each end a trip that takes an hour by car in rush hour, 30 minutes by car off peak... takes 2hrs by transit regardless.

      My time is valuable.

      Finally, the city is famous for rain. Most of us can't afford to show up for work looking like something the cat dragged in. And that makes public transit less desirable... umbrellas and boots, and water proof jackets only get you so far. Spend any length of time as a pedestrian and you'll want a change of clothes.

      It also makes bike commuting nearly impossible, unless you are fortunate enough to be able to change and shower once you get to work.

      Contrast with driving direct from garage to parkade and back. It may well cost more, but its faster, and a lot more comfortable.

    59. Re:Sounds like a headache by DaveGod · · Score: 2

      Having been an environmentalist at one point, I can tell you that BEING ALIVE is a detriment to society. Humans produce tons and tons of pollution each year. [...] (No I'm not some kind of nut advocating genocide. It's a thought experiment.)

      Far as I'm concerned the objective of "environmentalism" is striking a balance on quality of life (current and future), therefore any ideas of eliminating people or even reducing the opportunity of life is running contrary to the fundamental objective.

      Environmentalism is not, except for a small fringe, about "saving the planet" but rather reducing the negative impact on quality of life in the future. "Saving the planet" is a somewhat failed edu-marketing slogan once used as a strategy towards achieving the objective, but is now often confused as the objective itself. Witnessing some horrendous result of pollution may appear to trigger a feeling of guilt just because it looks like we're ruining mother earth, but really what we're thinking is that we're fucking shit up for future generations. A bit like how we might feel guilty when looking at the bumper we just hit not because we care much for the car but rather it's owner.

  2. Double dipping? by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't this already covered by the gas tax, which is inherently incurred on a "per mile" (gallon, really) basis?

    Anything that can be taxed, will. Those things which can not be taxed will be fined.

    1. Re:Double dipping? by leehwtsohg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, basically it is a way to additionally tax fuel efficient vehicles. Something like an anti-fuel-efficiency tax.

    2. Re:Double dipping? by _0xd0ad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's still double dipping. They're considering it instead of an increase in the current gas tax.

      If they eliminated the gas tax and replaced it with this, their stated reason would be an acceptable one.

    3. Re:Double dipping? by tophermeyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Another way to look at it is it will tax the vehicles that use the public roadways, not just the vehicles that consume gas.

      The gas taxes would remain though. So don't worry, fuel efficient cars will still enjoy a tax benefit..

    4. Re:Double dipping? by Phleg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gas taxes pay for a frighteningly small percentage of the cost of roads. The lion's share is usually from property taxes.

      --
      No comment.
    5. Re:Double dipping? by PyroMosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but the logic is sound.

      If you look at gas tax as a sort of sin tax to pay for the environmental damage you are causing, it's a perfectly reasonable tax because a Matrix "costs" more to the environment than a Prius does.

      But that's not the limit to their cost. A Matrix may cost more to the environment than a Prius, but they're a similar size and weight, and so their "cost" to the roads they travel on is very similar.

      So you charge for both. In this way, it makes sense to have two separate taxes rather than just raising the existing tax.

      I think it's premature, though. Right now, we should be taxing gas more to encourage it's abandonment. Only after there is an overwhelming majority of hybrid and/or electric vehicles on the road should we be considering something like this, because once you're not using gas any more, you still need to fund roads...

    6. Re:Double dipping? by rwa2 · · Score: 2

      From the summary:
      "The mileage tax is being considered instead of an increase in the gas tax in order to tax hybrids, EVs, and conventional automobiles equally."

      Yeah, that part doesn't make so much sense... the heavy vehicles are the ones that create most of the wear and tear on the infrastructure. You could probably have a thousand passenger cars drive by and still not cause as much strain as a single loaded 18-wheeler :-P

    7. Re:Double dipping? by Stormthirst · · Score: 2

      With the current taxation system, the more heavily polluting and inefficient vehicles are taxed more, creating an incentive to buy 'greener'. Trouble is, the only people who can afford new cars (ergo more efficient), are the wealthy. The people who are least likely to be able to afford more efficient vehicles are the poor, who are by definition the ones who need it the most.

    8. Re:Double dipping? by camperdave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lawn mowers, tractors, forklifts, parking lot shuttle vehicles, snowmobiles and quad-runners, motorboats, etc all use gas but do not contribute to road use. Taxing mileage and gas are two separate things. It's not double dipping.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    9. Re:Double dipping? by PhotoJim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Easily solved. Increase the gas tax. Not only does this restore the revenue, but it creates greater incentive for those who drive inefficient vehicles to change to more efficient ones.

      A mileage tax might seem to make sense in some ways, but imagine the logistics of collecting. Unless you are going to make every road a toll road (and good luck with that project), a fuel tax increase is going to be far easier and cheaper to implement.

    10. Re:Double dipping? by Seumas · · Score: 2

      Right, so while more tax is an inherently bad thing, why create a whole new tax to add on to the old tax rather than just increasing the original tax? Of course, one reason is that people might get a bit bitchy when you tell them you're charging 20% gas tax, but not as much if you say you're taxing them 10% gas tax and then the equivalent amount (or more) in mileage tax. Also, gas tax has an inherent usage fee built into it without any additional monitoring, auditing, or surveillance.

    11. Re:Double dipping? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know down at the farm we can buy farm diesel and farm gas for those vehicles which exclude fuel taxes meant for improving roads. You don't often find it in the city and most people don't know you can buy fuel for your lawnmower that is circa 30 cents a gallon cheaper (in this state at least) since it doesn't go on the road.

      So indeed, charging the tax on gas for cars AND charging a usage tax for cars is double dipping.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    12. Re:Double dipping? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Problem is, the gas tax is NOT a sin tax, it is a tax to fund roads. At least that is it's stated purpose. I have no problems paying a tax for roads whether it be gas or by mile. Governments need revenue to build and maintain roads. I understand that and willing to pay my share.

      What I don't agree with are "SIN" taxes of any type. I see taxes as a way for the government to raise the funds they need to operate. Not a way for them to dictate how people should live and what they should or should not do.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    13. Re:Double dipping? by smbarbour · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here's a logical usage taxation for vehicles: Tax the tires. They have a limited lifespan which is already measured in miles. Additionally, the lifespan is reduced if they are not maintained properly (which also leads to increased wear on the roads). Wear out the tires sooner, you'll have to buy new tires sooner, which means that more taxes will be paid for higher roadwear vehicles. The more tires your vehicle has, the more wear you are likely placing on the roads, and thus the more taxes your vehicle will be providing for road maintenance. You can even have varying taxes based on the intended usage of the tires: Farm tractor tires would pay less in road maintenance taxes (since they spend most of their time off the road). Racing tires would also pay less (perhaps almost none) since they would rarely, if ever, be used on public roadways.

    14. Re:Double dipping? by hab136 · · Score: 2

      They may modify the numbers, but they'll never abolish federal income tax and institute a VAT, for example.

    15. Re:Double dipping? by Illicon · · Score: 2

      If we all rode bikes in protest, I promise you, they will find a way to tax that.

    16. Re:Double dipping? by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I can make a firm pledge under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."

      A new tax is not a tax increase.

  3. Why tax Hybrids and Guzzlers equally? by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shouldn't we be encouraging people to use less gas? An excise tax on gasoline is an excellent way to do so.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Why tax Hybrids and Guzzlers equally? by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Becasue ti's about road repair. and guzzlers will still pay extra in tax in that they still need gas.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  4. Why federal, again? by LordLimecat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I ask this quesiton sincerely-- I honestly would like an answer from those who agree with this.

    If I lived in Arkansas, and I only drive on local roads in state, and I do 3-4000 miles a year doing so,... why would this be justified by either Constitution or 10th amendment? I dont mean to troll or attack, but I cannot conceive of why this should be federally managed. I am not against seatbelt laws or think that all regulation or social programs are evil, but honestly, shouldnt there be a limit to what the Fed deals with?

    1. Re:Why federal, again? by Batmunk2000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Constitution? We still have one of those?

    2. Re:Why federal, again? by smelch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Federally managed because the federal government is what people want. Largely, the United States seems to want a large, powerful, federal government and not respect the different cultures of different states. This is why the popular vote fiasco with President Bush was so easy for people to harp on. They no longer recognize or respect the separation of states. Further, the Federal Government uses taxes it levies on people to redistribute to state governments specifically for that kind of infrastructure. In a way, even state roads are paid for with Federal money.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    3. Re:Why federal, again? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      "shouldnt there be a limit to what the Fed deals with?"
      of course, but tlak to your state. They do NOT have to take the funds the Feds offer.

      People like to blame the feds, but it's the states they give power to the feds.

      To answer you immediate question:
      Even if you do not use interstate or roads maintain or built with fed money (you do) , you still benefit from the systems. You get stuff delivered to you with those roads, companies can operate because of those roads, transportation is more efficient with those roads and so on. They wouldn't have even been able to build the infrastructures that became the internet.

      Federal roads are a cornerstone to pretty much everything that happens.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Why federal, again? by ILMTitan · · Score: 2

      Section 8 - Powers of Congress
      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
      To borrow money on the ...

      That seems to cover this

    5. Re:Why federal, again? by slick7 · · Score: 2

      Constitution? We still have one of those?

      We need a tax on these congressional meatheads and their inane laws that line their pockets, about 30 to 50 years would be appropriate.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    6. Re:Why federal, again? by Xanthas · · Score: 2

      The federal government has the power to levy taxes.

    7. Re:Why federal, again? by ArcherB · · Score: 2

      Surely part of the problem with the Constitution as it stands is that it was written in the 1790s, when they didn't pave roads etc. The Founding Fathers had some great ideas, but perhaps now is the time to start looking at a new constitution - one that incorporates freedom of speech at the outset, rather than being bolted on the side like it was an afterthought.

      There's no need. What needs to happen is for the government and courts to treat the 10'th Amendment with save vigor that they treat the first.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    8. Re:Why federal, again? by roystgnr · · Score: 2

      Freedom of speech wasn't an afterthought. The trick is that, in order to understand how freedom of speech was guaranteed to begin with, you have to deliberately reject a misunderstanding that is at the foundation of hundreds of thousands of pages of US laws and regulations.

      "Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?" - Alexander Hamilton

      The Bill of Rights' whole existence was subject to this debate. One side thought that, without any extra, spelled-out-for-the-slow-children protections for basic human rights, the government would have been more likely to violate those rights. Another side thought that the Bill of Rights would be misleading, confusing people into thinking that the federal government was to be empowered to do anything that wasn't covered by a short list of enumerated limits, rather than understanding that the federal government was to be limited from doing anything that wasn't covered by a short list of enumerated powers.

      Sadly, in hindsight both sides were obviously correct.

  5. No Inscentive to be more efficient with this... by bratloaf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OK, so let me get this straight. They want to create a GIANT system with many layers of government, to take more money based on actual miles driven. But we already have that - called a gasoline tax. At least with the gas tax I have an incentive to buy a more fuel-efficient car if I must commute (I must, far too). With this I would have much less. I think this is just to avoid being the "bad guys" that raise the gas tax. I thought one of the points of the gas taxes was to encourage efficiency.

  6. Oh good - another industry "created" by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 4, Interesting
    See that? The government will create a new market by mandating the use of electronic metering devices, AND bring in more tax revenue!

    Win-win!

  7. All this effort, just to avoid the real problem... by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That being, that they (State and federal governments) are spending too much money already.

    How about they do something a little more useful, like impose a moratorium on new expenditures until the economic crisis is over?

    Oh dear-- I just imagined government workers being cautious with other people's money! How silly of me!

  8. Maybe, but only if... by sureshot007 · · Score: 2

    I would only be ok with this if: 1) I didn't have to pay ANY taxes when registering a car (in NY it gets a little out of hand) 2) The electronic device did *not* have gps 3) The readings were taken during my annual inspection, and they just read the mileage on the odometer (ie - no new hardware to install, no costs associated with it)

  9. Which makes the idea worse. by sethstorm · · Score: 2

    Not only do you still have your Big Brother, you have less control of them.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  10. Re:What is the Real Issue? by ak_hepcat · · Score: 2

    Because they're only taxing on federally funded highway/interstate miles, not on local infrastructure.
    And they use the GPS, so that way there's no problems with knowing where your vehicle is.

    You know, because that local road that sits underneath the highway is simple for the GPS to figure out...
    Or the frontage road that's 20 feet to the side of the highway...

    --
    Support FSF: Stop thinking with your wallet, and think with your imagination. (cc/non-commercial)
  11. Gasoline tax is better by yerM)M · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "these taxes could be used to offset the costs of highway maintenance...The mileage tax is being considered instead of an increase in the gas tax in order to tax hybrids, EVs, and conventional automobiles equally."

    If this were really the case then the gasoline tax is both a great proxy for miles driven and the weight of the vehicle (heavier vehicles consume more gasoline and also damage roads more per mile). It also fosters the purchase of lighter, more fuel efficient vehicles.

  12. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by etymxris · · Score: 3

    Taxes have been cut multiple times since the early 80s, while spending has increased. I'm all for cutting taxes, AFTER we get our spending under control. The govt should only be able to cut taxes if receipts > expenses AND there is no current deficit. It'll be a long time before our budgets are balanced unless we lay off the entire military or let poor people start dying in the streets. Had we been a little more responsible over the past 30 years none of this would have been an issue.

  13. Cars already have this device installed by sandytaru · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's called an odometer.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Cars already have this device installed by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...and they're completely tamper proof.

      So you believe the correct answer is to install a second, hardened odometer that provides no benefits whatsoever to the owner. You work as a contractor, don't you?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  14. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let me start by saying, flat out, that I'm not trying to troll or start a war here, but what exactly would you have them cut?

    It's a fact that most fiscal conservatives, when asked what they would have the government cut can't name a single program to cut that is both A) large enough to have an impact, and B) not political suicide to cut. Would you take benefits away from people on a fixed income, who were promised and rely on that income and those benefits to make it through the month? Would you cut spending on military and defense? Would you tell young people that Social Security won't be there for them when they are elderly, and then tell them to keep paying in anyway? Cut funding for sciences and eduction? NASA?

    It's very easy to say "we should be spending less". It's a lot harder to identify areas to be cut that will make a difference and that people aren't so passionate about that the cuts won't be reversed in 4 years or less.

  15. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by hedwards · · Score: 2

    Aside from the DoD, the government really isn't spending too much money. The real issue is that they aren't taxing sufficiently to maintain a viable government without going into debt. Things like roads, schools, law enforcement and other things cost money, you can't continually to cut them without damaging or eliminating the tax base.

    But, the other bit of it is that the voters reward the politicians that are willing to go into hock to start pointless wars and cut taxes for the rich and for corporations. We've got the money to pay, it's just that we're penny wise and pound foolish.

    Plus, it's got basically nothing to do with government workers, they aren't the ones that pass these insane ideas or sign them, that's your politicians work.

  16. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by Antisyzygy · · Score: 2

    Had they not cut taxes on the rich since Reagan this would not be a problem. Rich people don't like to use their own money to pay for their governing the rest of us.

    --
    That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  17. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by spike2131 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    like impose a moratorium on new expenditures until the economic crisis is over?

    Great idea! Slow down economic activity until economic activity speeds up!

    --
    SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
  18. Re:Something's rotten in Washington... by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 2

    A Republican's wet dream forsooth.

    The report was requested by Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-N.D.), who held a hearing on transportation funding in early March. In that hearing, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said the Obama administration is hoping to spend $556 billion over the next six years, much of which would go to federal transportation improvement projects.

    I don't see a whole lot of Republicans in this story...

    The idea that Republicans are in the pocket of big business and the Democrats are not is demonstrably false. They all are, and the sooner we all start focusing on what is realistic, reasonable and feasible instead of ideals and supporting "our" team, the better off we will all be.

    --
    I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
  19. 4th power of the axle wieght by mdsolar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Road damage goes as the 4th power of the axle weight so a Honda Insight does essentially no damage. An Escalade does do damage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#Maintenance

    I'd rather not see a miles traveled tax. It would be better to have a new vehicle fee proportional to the expected life of the vehicle and the 4th power of the axle weight. That cost gets passed along proportionally in the further sale of the vehicle.

  20. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by Fastball · · Score: 2, Informative

    Raising taxes from historically low, unsustainable levels? Preposterous!

  21. Just a CBO report, not "being considered" by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Indeed.

    The CBO reports on all sorts of things. The existence of this report only means that one person in congress asked them for a report. It does not mean that congress as a body is even considering such a thing, much less likely to do it.

    For "nerds" a lot of people sure are susceptible to propaganda.

  22. The Real Real problem by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People who cavalierly wast resources should be paying this burden, not us people who are stuck with commutes, but thoughtful enough to buy vehicles which are misers on gas consumption.

    I'm confounded when I drive through suburban neighborhoods and see 80% of the homes have at least one Pickup/SUV in the driveway - most of these are never going to be used for construction or off-road. They're the modern equivalent of the Station Wagon. If gas is so cheap these people are commuting with these, and I see them in large percentages on my daily commute, then gas is still too cheap. Get off that addiction, people!

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:The Real Real problem by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This, The sooner gas hits $20/gallon, the better.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:The Real Real problem by tophermeyer · · Score: 2

      If (and it's a very if) the thinking behind this tax is to better recoup costs from people using public roads, it makes sense.

      I haven't seen anything indicating that the energy efficient vehicles cause less wear & tear on roadways than gas guzzlers (though it logically makes sense with their lighter weight).

      If the people are wasting a common resource then by all means tax the resource. If that resource is gas then tax gas. If that resource is the condition of the roadway itself, then we should be taxing the use of the roadway.

    3. Re:The Real Real problem by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Cars put very little burden on road paving. Trucks are what damage roads. Tax them more and shipping will move to more efficient rail. Right now shippers are being subsidized by gas taxes providing them with low cost roads.

    4. Re:The Real Real problem by dbc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes. Extremely insightful.

      And the reason trucks damage roads is the way they are taxed. Trucks are taxed per axle, thus by loading up each axle to the weight limit they pay the least tax. But high axle loads in trucks is the cause of the majority of road wear. If instead trucks were taxed based on axle weight, they would have more axles to carry the same load and significantly reduce road wear. We should turn all those 18 wheelers in to 56 wheelers, and roads would last a lot longer.

      The axle load versus wear effect has been well known for at least a quarter of a century. We could fix it by making a two line change in the tax code, thus realigning the incentives. Why doesn't this happen? Because all the truckers have to replace a lot of expensive infrastructure. So the way to make this happen is to phase it in -- all new trailers pay the tax the new way, all old trailers can pay the old tax for 10 years if they were manufactured before a certain date. Ten years is a long time? *pffft*, if we had done this when the problem was first documented we would have been converted over more than a decade ago.

    5. Re:The Real Real problem by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      What wears out roads is mass per axle. This is a well known phenomenon. Not only do trucks have more mass per axle than cars by far, they are taxed per axle so they load each axle the maximum amount.

      Road damage increases much more than proportionately with vehicle weight on a road surface. For example, if Vehicle A weighs 48,000 pounds and Vehicle B weighs 4,000 pounds, the damage done to the road by Vehicle A is far more than 12 times the damage done by Vehicle B.

      http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/FTP_RES/docs/Reports/EffectWeightMileTax.pdf

    6. Re:The Real Real problem by adeft · · Score: 2

      That's quite a bit insensitive. All day at work I dream of driving my hobby cars (which tend to be hard on gas). I guess in turn I hope whatever you enjoy doing becomes prohibitively expensive as well.

  23. Re:Non starter by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Anything that monitors my car will not sit well with me.
    Oh wait, or anyone at all.

    Unless you have a car that was built pre-OBD2 (older than 1996) your car already has this in place. PID 31 records how many miles your car has traveled since it was last reset.

  24. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by mdarksbane · · Score: 2

    Lowering spending from historically high, unsustainable levels? Ridiculous!

    The last time we were spending this high of a % of our GDP on government we were using it to beat the Nazis.

  25. The real problem is it is safer out where I live by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can leave doors open all day, I have left windows on the lower level of my home open all day, simply because of where I live which is the suburbs

    Big city schools, yeah that is where its at, if at is graduating a small portion of your students and generally getting stomped by most schools in surrounding counties for GPA/SAT and graduation rates. Top it off with more chances for gang activity and I think you begin to see why people might not want to live in them.

    You live your life and let the rest live theirs. NYC is special because of rent control and the like which has gone further than many other cities. Or perhaps you would prefer San Francisco which has nicely driven nearly all blacks from the town by pricing them out of the mark with new building rules and restrictions on what can go where.

    Cities work for some people, they don't work for everyone. Atlanta is almost to racial parity but is that a good thing? It is a simple reason really, the city is getting too expensive for the poor to live in it and the poor are majority minority here. Yet people say "move to the city" which brings more yuppies who tear down or gut nice row homes jacking the costs to live in the neighborhood

    Back to the story. It was to be expected with the push for better mileage vehicles that the method of taxation must change. Why they need meters I will never know, they can just do inspections and check your mileage. Of course with meters and GPS they can tell which roads you used. It all comes down to one thing.

    Instead of spending the money they get and doing well with it they are forever looking for new sources and usually spending it before they get it
    .

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  26. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by wierd_w · · Score: 2

    It is a fallacy that government subsidies enrich the economy, at least as far as government income is concerned.

    Example-- I, as the government, give a subsidy to an energy company so that they can provide the necessary infrastructure my population requires. The energy company accepts my subsidy with sweaty palms, then promptly invests that money in an overseas venture. "We can't possibly track individual dollars as they move through our enterprise!" they proclaim. By "pure coincidence," a large sum of money approximating the savings that they received from the subsidy ends up in a non-taxible foriegn subsidiary, in say-- Ireland.

    Meanwhile, prices at the pump and for the domestic services for which you have implemented the subsidy, remain unchanged, or, rather, increase. "We have to charge to meet demand!" they proclaim.

    Similar stories with telecom. Did you know that the US government made a slushfund to replace the copper POTS network with straight up fiber in the 90s? Where did the money get spent instead? Oh dear.... That's what I thought.

       

  27. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

    That being, that they (State and federal governments) are spending too much money already.

    Do you offer this as fact or opinion?

    How about they do something a little more useful, like impose a moratorium on new expenditures until the economic crisis is over?

    Funny thing is, we can always afford wars half-way around the world and tax cuts for billionaires, but can't afford to keep the country running.

    And that's with a "liberal" in the White House.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  28. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by wierd_w · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not exactly-- What I have a problem with is not people becoming more educated, being able to afford their own homes, or to ensure quality education for their children, as many left wing pundits would claim about me.

    What I have a problem with is senators and other government employees creating subsidy programs in both military research expenditure budgets, and in technology and infrastructure budgets that generate conditions that destroy actual market competition, with the goal of enriching themselves through enriching the corporations they offer the subsidies to (Shock, horror, Senators can own stock!).

    "You just dont want to pay taxes so little Timmy O'Toole can get new crutches!" is a red herring. What I really dont want to pay taxes for is so Dick Cheney can get richer from killing people in Iraq, or so government regulators can get spiffy pension pension plans, while people are starving and suffering contrived forclosures (remember that leak about bank of america?) and losing everything.

    Basically, I dislike being told I hate the poor, while watching senators do land grabs and Cesar spout soliloquies while Rome burns to the ground.

    Clear enough for you?

       

  29. The first round of cuts should be simple by EMB+Numbers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We have a larger navy than the next 11 countries combined, and 9 of those are our allies.
    Step 1) Reduce navy to the save of the next 5 countries combined.

    We have more agriculture department employees than there are farmers.
    Step 2) Eliminate all farm subsidies and cut the agriculture department to the bone.

    We fight too many wars
    Step 3) Stop fighting wars and eliminate supplemental war expenditures.

    Stop fighting the "war on drugs" and every other "war on..." that we have been loosing since the 1960s. Get over it already.
    Step 4) Stop prosecuting and start taxing vices and victimless crimes.

    I currently work as a defense contractor, and I know first that the government is incompetent and defense spending is largely wasteful.

  30. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by X_Bones · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh dear - you just imagined a government providing no safety net to citizens and no confidence to investors until some vaguely-defined point in the future! How silly of you!

    State and federal governments are not spending too much money - if anything, they're not spending enough (and not only that but they're taxing the wrong people to get it). The job of the government is to provide for the security and well-being of its citizens. Cutting spending during a massive economic downturn is absolutely no way to do that job. Providing help through stimulus and job creation is.

    I swear, it's like the only lesson all the small-government starve-the-beast meatheads learned from the Great Depression is to have a couple of wars when your country is going to shit.

  31. 100% of current tax not going to roads by chiph · · Score: 2

    Depending on your state & locality, not all of your motor fuels tax is going towards road construction & repair. In North Carolina, about 25-30% of that money is being diverted into the general fund.

    So when a politician calls for an increase in tax "because we need good roads", ask him where the rest of the money he collected went that was supposed to have gone to replacing bridges in imminent danger of collapse.

    Chip H.

  32. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by Loosifur · · Score: 2

    Well, it's easy to reduce the budget by simply decreasing the amount by which existing funding for annual budget items is increased. Easy logically, that is, not necessarily politically. It's not like the choice is between eliminating Social Security and halving the federal budget, or increasing spending by adding services and creating new government. The third choice is to simply maintain current spending.

    That said, as a "fiscal conservative", I would change Social Security at the very least by implementing means testing. And yes, I would begin to phase out Social Security. It wasn't intended to be used as a retirement fund so much as a safety net. Not everyone is supposed to get their money back out of it, and if you're relying on Social Security to provide for you in your old age, you're probably going to need a few other safety nets as well. I don't expect to get a dime back from Social Security, if it's even still around when I retire, and that's fine. I just look at it as another tax, frankly.

    I would also cut defense spending, which I believe is one of the bigger line items in the federal budget. IMO, the State department is underfunded, while Defense is bloated. There's a massive military industrial complex that soaks up a lot of tax dollars, when we should be sending some of that money to State, and some of it elsewhere in the budget.

    And I know this is unpopular, but I would eliminate the Department of Education, which I believe is more properly a state-level matter. And Homeland Security, which is totally unnecessary and has consistently failed to accomplish its overall mission since its inception. Also, I would take a look at stuff like agricultural subsidies, which are a pretty fair chunk of the budget.

    Even if you make a quarter of those cuts, and only cut a quarter of those elements of the budget, you're already saving a lot of money. My point is that, just because you might not be able to find one single line item in a budget that is both unpopular enough to be cut without political danger, yet large enough to make a big dent in the budget by itself, does not mean that there isn't a problem with wasteful and/or unnecessary spending in the federal budget.

    Ps. I would leave NASA alone, because more money gets spend on the food stamp program than gets sent to NASA. And NASA is a model of efficiency within the Fed, frankly, before we even start talking about all the useful technology and research we gain from that particular agency.

    --
    This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
  33. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 2

    I disagree. I'm a fiscal conservative but a social liberal. I have no problems with tax money providing a social safety net (and would prefer to see the US have Western Europe-style "social nets"). To steal from another Slashdotters signature, "I like taxes; they buy me civilization."

    What I want is efficient spending. Get me the biggest bang for my buck.

    Conversely, I *do not* want my tax money wasted. I've worked for the federal government through the DOE on an LHC detector. I've *seen* how the money is wasted (no, the LHC isn't a waste, I watched how a DOE lab's computing division burned money away because, heh, we've got it, might as well spend it even if we don't need it). To the point, I'm saying "Take my tax money", but please, use it as efficiently as possible.

    Fiscal conservative = ruthless efficiency.

  34. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A) large enough to have an impact, and B) not political suicide to cut.

    That's like saying you can't find a number between 3 and 5 that isn't 4, therefore, we math cannot exist.

    Of course huge ass programs need to be cut. And there are 4 areas of government that will need to come under serious fire:
        - Social Security:
                    a. phase out for anyone that is above the poverty line between now and 75 years from now
                    b. reduce the tax to 1-2% of net earnings to encourage hiring
                    c. Match the (Life Expectancy - Retirement Age) delta from 1935 to today's Life Expectancy
        - Medicare
                    a. We'll start with negotiating for drug prices. When was the last time *you* bought something for 40 million people and didn't get a volume discount?

        - Department of Defense
                    a. No one in their right mind thinks we need to be the world's police anymore.

        - Discretionary Spending
                    a. We don't have any money. There is no "entertainment" budget. Cut it all.

    When we balance the budget, and we pass a Balanced Budget Amendment, we can start spending again. If you're going to spend, you're going to have to tax. It's that simple. Focusing solely on Discretionary Spending (which only Republicans want to cut, Democrats are still holding out on even that), and ignoring DOJ, SS, and Medicare, which no one wants to cut, is a fool's game. It's senseless and no one should take any politician seriously when they say they want meaningful cuts but ignore these areas.

    If Barack Obama gets his way, we'll spend $1.65 trillion this year (we still don't have a budget because of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid ineptitude from last year).
        - that's a 7.5% *increase* in spending over last year

    If John Boehner gets his way, we'll spend $1.55 trillion this year.
        - that's a 6.5% *increase* in spending over last year.

    So that brings up 2 questions:
        1. what the hell are Democrats complaining about, when even John Boehner wants to increase spending by 3x the rate of inflation? Stop being children and deal with these problems like adults do when they balance their checkbooks.
        2. why would anyone in their right mind think that either of these men aren't complete jokes?

    These folks don't give a shit about our economy and deficit, and are just fooling around with the United States Economy as if it's their first chance to get a Nintendo and play Mario Bros. We are out of extra lives, and I don't see a Game Genie lying around anywhere.

  35. Re:Are you sure? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2

    And this is what makes politics so difficult. When no one knows anything. Your speculation is typical of the sort of thinking that infests our politics. Sorry, but the reasons you're thinking about are trivial next to the main causes of road damage. Trucking companies would be very happy to have you inadvertently defend them.

    The 2 things that cause the bulk of the damage to our roads are water and heavy vehicles. 1 heavy truck can do as much damage as 10000 cars. It matters very little whether the cars are SUVs or subcompacts. We've been working on making the roads better able to handle 80000 pound trucks, but there are still many old roads that weren't designed for that kind of use. And we have all these weigh stations and inspections, because truckers will cheat on weight limits.

    You ask for a paper? Here's one.

    As for the idea that poor people get stuck with less efficient cars, this is not really the case. The cheapest cars are often the most efficient. Hybrids have changed that because they are very costly, but this is a recent, and still small segment. A much bigger expense for poor people is being forced to live further from work to get affordable housing. Fix that, and you will do far more for the poor than any fooling around with the gas tax could.

    This whole proposal sounds like pure politicking, principally backed by Big Oil. What of the huge costs in monitoring everyone so that a mileage based tax could be assessed? The thing I dislike most about toll roads, even more than the dodgy privatization schemes, is the expense of collecting the tolls. It's very expensive to have dozens of toll booths manned 24/7. Automated collection is cheaper, but still far more expensive than the gas tax.

    The most shameful thing about the US gas tax is that it is a fixed amount! Been 18.4 or 18.3 cents per gallon since 1993, and inflation has not been 0% all that time. It should be a percentage, like income tax.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  36. Re: Invasion of privacy by skids · · Score: 2

    Close: the rate of wear to the tires versus that to the road is not necessarily linked. It's not friction wear.

    However a tire tax would be simple, effective, and could be used to rate based on wear due to the simple fact that different tires are required for heavy vehicles. So you just tax different models of tires differently.

    And in the meantime you don't have to manufacture several hundred million GPS units.

  37. Why tax all cars equally? by mmcuh · · Score: 2

    The gas-driven cars are doing far more damage to everyone else than the rest of them. An increased tax on gas (which is still ridiculously cheap in the US) encourages people to get smaller and more efficient cars and doesn't require any new mandatory monitoring or any new infrastructure at all. Just bump the tax percentage a bit, and you're done.

  38. Re:All this effort, just to avoid the real problem by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

    You just told us why. Because they are earning more then they are worth. You think they should get that to be 'fair'. You are wrong.

    The main problem with the federal work force is feather bedding. Fire half of them and the rest will get _more_ done (if you fire the right half).

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  39. TANSTAAFL by geek2k5 · · Score: 2

    When dealing with essential infrastructure like roads, spending less can cost more in the long run. If you let your roads get too bad, people end up paying more because they have to pay for vehicle repairs and new tires. If the road conditions cause accidents, people may pay with their lives.

    In some instances, spending MORE can mean fewer expenditures in the future. High quality roads can be more expensive to build front end but they can last longer with less maintenance.

    If people want good roads, they need to remember TANSTAAFL.

  40. Endgame by Catbeller · · Score: 2

    Everyone is tracked. Endgame.

    Phone calls: monitored and possibly recorded. Internet surfing: recorded. Texts: recorded. GPS location on phone: recorded. eBook purchases: recorded. Credit card activity: recorded. Purchases: recorded. Music purchases and listening habits: recorded. MAC addresses/IP addresses: recorded. Visible activity: recorded. Political beliefs: recorded if you protest. Library checkouts: recorded. Train usage: recorded. Bus usage: recorded. Plane usage: duh. The last thing left to do: car tracking. Every damned thing you do, say, listen to or read, and everywhere you go, recorded, now or very soon.

    The people who are doing this? Not recorded. Bush's White House staff emails from the 9/11 period are gone, baby, gone. Amazing, ain't it.

    Professor William Cronon is having his every electronic posting subpoenaed soon as retaliation for an article he wrote summarizing Governor Walker of Wisconsin's transgressions. And the Republican Party will probably get every communication he's ever made, digging for dirt to destroy him. That's what this all means.

    Told you so, ten years ago. Endgame.

    And oh yeah: raise your damned taxes to pay for the roads. EVERY damned shortfall is being used as an excuse to cut spending for the weak or poor, or to further extend the police state to endgame. Instead, just pay taxes, cheapskates. Life costs.

  41. This was once considered in the Netherlands by FridayBob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the Netherlands (a much smaller country than the US), they tried and failed to introduce this idea (road pricing), abandoning it in 2001. The problem was, how to implement it? Their are basically two ways to do it: either an attempt is made to identify all the cars on all the roads at all times in order to work out how far each has traveled so that they can all be taxed accordingly, or all vehicles must have a tracking device installed (basically a cell phone with a GPS) so that the tax authorities can perform the same calculations. The former is impractical due to the cost and complexity of implementation, while the second raises serious privacy concerns. Because of this, the Dutch government eventually decided to back down and stick with the decades-old flat tax for all motor vehicles no matter how much or how little the individual motorists use the roads.

    Actually, if the idea had been implemented, it would have made all forms of commercial transportation using the roads (for goods, services and people) significantly more expensive. Well, would the companies involved have had to pay those taxes equally? Perhaps. If so, you know those costs would have been passed on to the consumers anyway (including the ones without cars), making everything from peanuts to public transportation more expensive. If not, the average motorist would consider the tax unjust.

    Consider also that there is a much simpler alternative: simply add more tax to the price of fuel (75% of which already consists of tax in the Netherlands). This is not only an effective solution (those who drive more pay more tax), it's also low-tech (so it's super cheap to implement) and it further encourages people to drive more fuel-efficient vehicles. In addition, a fuel tax is arguably also a more effective method of taxing foreign vehicles that would otherwise likely pay less, or no road tax at all.

  42. Isn't a gas tax the same thing? by LibRT · · Score: 2

    Those who drive more are already paying a "vehicle miles traveled' tax by virtue of the tax on gasoline.

  43. No need for electronic metering devices... by unitron · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...Just tax tires.

    The more miles you drive, the sooner you have to replace your tires, and the more tax revenue they get, regardless of your means of propulsion.

    And as a side benefit, the kind of stupid, potentially unsafe behavior that wears out tires more quickly will financially penalize the idiots doing it even further.

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  44. This is never going to work. by Zero_DgZ · · Score: 2

    Partly for all the reasons listed above in detail by everyone else who has already posted. For instance, we have toll roads for a reason. And I already get taxed for highway maintenance in my regular taxes, not to mention the exorbitant titling and registration costs to the tune of hundreds of dollars every year I have to renew, not to mention mandatory insurance (how much do the insurance companies get taxed for supporting road use, I'm guessing none?) gas taxes, sales tax, and ridiculous fees tacked on to every traffic ticket. Here is why ELSE it won't work:

    I am, just like lots of other people in this country, a delivery driver. I use my own vehicles for work. I put a lot of miles on them, and I make money doing it. Currently, the miles my car travels are tax deductible as a business expense. This is because it already costs me money just to work: Nobody reimburses me for gas, and when I get a string of no-tippers on any given day this prevents me from basically depreciating my car and working for free. (Because, due to previous governmental meddling, we are in the same class as waiters and therefore our employers are allowed to pay us FAR less than minimum wage, and therefore 100% of them do.)

    There are two kinds of delivery driver in this world: Punk high-school kids who drive around in the summertime or between 'real' jobs for a couple of months to make a few bucks, and us professionals who have been tough enough not to be chewed up and spit out by the bullshit that is the modern American experience. (Complete with crime, corruption, and personal peril. Accept no substitutes.)

    Let me tell you something about professional delivery drivers. We are, to the last man, batshit fucking insane. Not only is it the only way to survive, but it's the only way to make money. You would HAVE to be cracked to make a living driving your own car into the middle of the ghetto with somebody else's pizza and a light up sign on your roof that says "rob me" twenty times a night. But we do it. We do it because the trademark of the professional driver is that we don't take shit from anybody. Not the customer, not the punks on the street, not the boss, not the police, and sure as fuck not some swine in Washington who can't figure out how to pay their goddamn bills.

    If this passes into law, two things are going to happen: Of course, everyone else in the world is going to whine and moan on the Internet and in newspaper opinion columns, and many hands will be wrung with nothing done about it. But meanwhile, there's going to be a traffic jam on the beltway; A line of cars as far as the eye can see, each emblazoned with a sign: Domino's, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, more Chinese restaurants than you can count. There will be fucking taxicabs in there. Stretch limos, and private tour buses. Every one of those vehicles is gonna have one pissed off professional driver behind the wheel, and they're all going to be headed to Washington D.C. to personally strangle whoever is responsible for this bill.

    And we're not gonna take "no" for an answer.