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High Performance Gaming Mice Don't Perform
An anonymous reader writes "A new mouse performance speed-testing software has scientifically demonstrated that there is virtually no difference between the performance of expensive, high-end gaming mice and cheap laser office mice. The software, called Metalocity, is available for free download so you can test your own mice and confirm the empirical results for yourself. It also shows that the multi-button approach of the Razer Naga and WarMouse Meta increases user speed by up to 112 percent." Note that this report comes from someone who wants to sell you a $80 gaming mouse with a zillion buttons on it, so a grain of salt is required here. But the question is valid: are the expensive mice really worth anything?
Gaming mice, bought and classed as the greatest thing ever by those same people that use gold plated martian ray proof AV cables!
The extra buttons ones I guess serve a purpose if you are incapable of using modifiers or are some kind of Octopi
Witty Comment Here
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that TFA is actually a gratuitous piece of advertising fluff, which basically says "our competitors' products are rubbish so buy ours"... I've tried all kinds of mice over the years, including high-end Razer gaming mice and the like - and to be honest, I've never found that there's any kind of big, glaring performance difference. I think the most important thing with regard to mice is just to find one that you're comfortable with. For me, the Intellimouse Explorer 3 (but emphatically not the later versions) fits my hand well and has the right number of buttons positioned just where I want them, so I use that. It also has the advantage of being pretty cheap, which is handy since the wheel tends to gum up after 18 months or so in a way that I've never been able to fix, requiring periodic replacements. But at the end of the day, any "performance" differences are going to be pretty slim, so I'd just focus on getting something you're comfortable with and that supports your hand properly, to avoid joint pains later in life. The same goes for the keyboard - I've seen players with expensive gaming mice risk giving themselves all kinds of RSI by using keyboards which, through either sheer cheap-and-nastiness or plain old bad design, force their hands into all kinds of contortions.
On what you are buying it for.
If you are buying an expensive mouse because you think it will make you a l337 gaming god, then no. It won't do jack for you.
If you are buying an expensive mouse because it has better ergonomics than your cheap mouse and you want to reduce wrist strain, or if it has more buttons and you need or want that extra functionality, or if it has greater accuracy in movement and you need more precision, then yes. It will help you.
A mouse is a tool, like any other. Buy the tool most appropriate to your needs and desires. Don't buy one expecting it to make you a better USER of the tool.
In terms of things like ergonomics, number of buttons you can actually use/remap, etc. but the bottom line is that optical sensors have gotten pretty good, even at the low end.
It is true that the fancy laser stuff will let you mouse on surfaces where basic LED mice won't; but even laser diodes aren't all that costly, though they are used as a price discrimination feature.
Beyond mere ergonomic satisfaction, which is something of a matter of taste, and utility of extra buttons, which is a combination of taste and design, the only place that really dramatic differences jump out at you is with the wireless stuff. It is harder, though still entirely possible, to buy some really dire wireless mice. Slow refresh, shuts down to save power at the worst possible times and then spends 10 seconds waking up again, that sort of thing(and bluetooth? Pay double or insert dongle...)
For your basic rat on a string, though, it is hard to get too worked up about the differences between modern sensors.
...than about $50 tops on a mouse. Personally, I wouldn't spend more than about $20. My latest mouse I got when I replaced my keyboard (because one of the feet had broken off), I got a mouse and keyboard combo for about $30.
I shelled out and got me a setup that has the top (expensive) logitech stuff: G19 keyboard, G930 headset and the G700 mouse. It was the programmable macro keys (and the cordlessness of the mouse and headset) that sold me. Especially with the headset where I have a macro key as "push to talk" in teamspeak, so I can communicate with my pals while fixing a sandwich in the kitchen or (I usually don't announce this over comms) sit on the toilet...
The mouse fits my hand nicely has a nice rugged surface on the edges, has some nice macro keys and it can work both with the cord and cordless.
I mostly play Arma2 (fps/sim) and EVE Online (MMO) and the occasional Left 4 Dead 2 game.
English is not my first language, so cut me some slack -: Om du kan lasa det har sa kan du Svenska
As an avid computer FPS gamer, I can tell that using a higher end mouse definitely makes a difference. I've used quite a few in my days, mostly Logitech. I currently use an MX518. However, let's say for the sake of argument that the sensors are not of higher quality and don't offer any higher DPI or sensitivity than their mainstream office counterparts. There are other aspects to gaming mice that are quite important. The ergonomic shape of the mouse. The placement of the buttons. The software that allows you to configure the sensitivity very specifically to your preferences. In some mice, you have the ability to add or remove optional weights to suit your specific style. All of these contribute to being able to fine tune your mouse to give you the optimal control that allows you aim more accurately and quickly than a typical mouse that does not have these features.
We'll make great pets
Glad I'm not the only one of that opinion. A mouse has to feel comfortable and offer the features a user needs during the daily work. In my case that's the tried and proven MX518 combined with a Gen1 G15.
I had an old Logitech mouse that I just replaced and I didn't realize how bad it was until I replaced it. My new cheapo mouse is much higher resolution and the middle button actually works!
I love my Logitech MX1100R, it's an office mouse AFAIK, not really a gaming one, works great in gaming and standard use. Comfy, replaceable batteries and the extra 3 buttons are handy in some games. It was a bit pricey but I haven't looked back because it's so comfortable to use for extended periods.
Buying 'bling' mice to me personally, like "high performance gaming ram" is just stupid.
Owning and loving a Deathadder myself, I find the indisputable difference to be that if I were to try to game with an office mouse like the days of old, my hand would be vastly less comfortable. I've honed my skills around my hardware- and they have improved.
But this has to be the biggest load of shit I've ever read on /.
Gaming mice in "no better than a normal mouse for non gaming tasks" shocker.
Sort it out /.
I don't know if that stupid radioshack logitech I had was just particularly bad, but when I got a "gaming mouse" It felt a lot better. Of course, I mostly use this mouse for photoshop. Where the logitech couldn't seem to sit still or move tiny amounts, the razer is fine. Also, extra buttons are very useful in photoshop for tool properties, etc.
of course, the Gold Plated USB with Gajillion Hz Polling is a little much.
Also, use mouse acceleration if you really care (not OS but in-game)
From a technical standpoint, looking at benchmarks and the like? It probably doesn't matter so much. The extra buttons certainly help, if the mouse is well-designed. But I'll tell you this - if I feel more confident because the mouse I'm using cost $80 instead of $20, then I'm going to play better. And that might be worth it.
Never underestimate the potential of Human stupidity. -Heinlein
But that's all it really is. This is the online equivalent of those newspaper ads where an Amish craftsman oh so tenderly puts the finishing touches on the wood cabinet of an electric fireplace, while the fireplace is inside and running.
Moreover, I don't recall ever buying a gaming mouse so that I could perform a "500-click series of randomly generated commands" in the fastest possible time. I buy them because of the control I get over the mouse motion, leading to smoothness and accuracy in pointing.
No.
"Gamer" versions of just about any peripheral pretty much guarantees that it's at least 200% overpriced, and absolutely not one iota of performance better than the standard generic version you can buy at Microcenter from the big bargain bin.
Evidence:
"Gamer" Headsets
"Gamer" Keyboard
"Gamer" network card
"Gamer" mousepad
The only positive reviews I've ever seen of this crap come from people who were given one as a freebie to "review".
-Styopa
I've got an logitech MX518, had it for quite a while, and it's definitively better than your average office mice. The most noticeable difference I noticed between your average office mice and mine is that mine works on almost any surface. Only time it didn't work was when I tried to use it on an extremely shiny surface, that really surprised me. Other thing I like is about the MX518 is that it has extra "forward" and "backward" buttons, which I can use in firefox & explorer in windows, it's very useful, and I do think it speeds up my my mouse usage quite a bit.
I don't find it hard to believe that having more buttons on your mouse could speed up a lot of things, I mean we have 5 fingers on each hand, why should we be limited to only using two? or one for that matter? (I'm looking at you apple)
Lo and behold, for I am a sig!
A good gaming mouse should have:
* An ergonomic shape to hold for a couple hours at a time. I find that it works well to have a more arched shape for continuous use, instead of a flatter shape for reaching over to occasionally click something. Thumb rests are also popular.
* Lots of buttons, in a convenient arrangement.
* High resolution. Even if you don't want it to track fast, you want the tracking quantum to be small. For productivity apps, on the other hand, a larger quantum is nice to prevent it from accidentally moving.
There are also firmware differences. Ever notice how the LED goes dim when you're idling? That's a power saving strategy. It's actually just flashing it on occasionally to see if it's moved, then going back to sleep. Cordless productivity mice do this very aggressively, and you *will* miss that golden headshot opportunity if your mouse is idled down, since it won't start tracking again until the next flash - which can be as infrequent as once every couple seconds if you've been camping a while and it's gone into deep sleep.
TFA is measuring performance of speed clicking a bunch of icons. The mouse will never go to sleep in this scenario. If they tried another benchmark - like, hold still for 30 seconds and then click the icon as fast as you can - you will see some BIG differences, and gaming mice that don't go to deep sleep will win handily.
Bluetooth mice also gave wireless mice a bad name, and so a lot of gaming mice still have tails. The proprietary wireless interfaces are much less power hungry and respond so fast I can't tell the difference between my current midrange wireless mouse and the midrange corded one it replaced, other than no longer having the wire get tangled at inopportune moments.
The basic Logitech optical mice (of the sort that you get with Dells for example) always suited me fine for gaming. I tend to play FPSes though rather than stuff like WoW where the extra buttons could make some sense.
which is totally what she said
I'm a big fan of logitech products as well. I've had some bad experiences with them, but I bought their G7 wireless mouse years ago and found it better than all of the wired ones I had been using previously. I currently own 3 of them, the 8 year old one is still going strong but not in use anymore due to the coating wearing off and it looking very dirty no matter what I did in around year 5. After a year or so of the mouse the Logitech G15 came about, and I now have 3 of those as well, though two of them are spanish since they changed the keyboard and I couldn't find an english G15 first gen with 18 macro keys, the new ones have substantially less, with it topping out at 12 :(
Those two product lines I have had no problems with, but I have had problems with other Logitech products, so your mileage may vary.
I like my 4000 DPI gaming mouse a lot... It's not the interface and menu speeds that I care about. This test is absolutely worthless. I would have liked to see a test that tested acceleration (or hopefully lack thereof) and accuracy instead.
There has still never been a better mouse performance review than the ESR Mouse Score.
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
results comparisons : http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=21
He later reviewed the original Razer Deathadder and ran it through the same tests here :
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=longpost&id=1300293&page=4
But sadly I'm not aware of him doing any later tests, I would really love to see him do an ESR MouseScore 2011
Knowing /. I probably should have directly linked the benchmarking method : http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=3
Yeah, I use a (thumb) trackball mostly, but a simple Logitech LX3 works for me when I want to play games that don't do well with the trackball. Of course playing Touhou doesn't need a mouse at all...
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
notice how the LED goes dim when you're idling? That's a power saving strategy. It's actually just flashing it on occasionally to see if it's moved, then going back to sleep. Cordless productivity mice do this very aggressively, and you *will* miss that golden headshot opportunity if your mouse is idled down,
campers who are able to get their mouse to idle due to excessive camping are horrible, horrible gamers to play with anyway.
sorry, had to ;-)
"Logitech: another company I won't ever buy anything else from ever again." What did I miss about Logitech? Cry about astro-turf all you want, but I have a G15 (original with 18 buttons), MX Revolutions and a wired headset that I absolutely love. I've used Logitech for years and have always been happy with their quality. Out of 4-5 different PS2 wireless joysticks, the Logitech one I had was the only one that worked worth shit. Same for my USB Joysticks. The items that I have used from Logitech have worked for ages and as promised... So again... what has Logitech done to get "Boycott" status? Sony. Apple. EA. Some companies that I try to steer clear of, and for good reason... but why Logitech?
No surprise. Pinky and The Brain couldn't ever perform either...
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/06/Extremes_mouse.jpg
When I play on my laptop at work, the thing I miss more than anything is my Razer Naga. Seriously the best mouse I've ever purchased. I only wish all Razer products were that high in quality: my Razer Lycosa often freaks out and ignores certain keys. Very annoying.
I've had 2 Logitech MX Revolution mice. Each of them lasted about 6 months to a year, before they were unable to recharge again. Second one also had a very annoying bug where every so often a single click got interpreted as a double click. Extremely annoying. I can't believe you're peddling that crap here.
I'm Rocco. I'm the +5 Funny man.
I'll explain my point by looking at chairs rather than mice first.
At some point, an office chair is good enough. It's got everything for a healthy working position.
Spend 4 times more money, and you will most definitely sit more comfortable... but the question we're answering here is: do you work harder with significantly less chance for injury? Maybe just a little. Probably no measurable difference.
I don't doubt for a moment that you get a nicer gaming experience with your MX518 mouse. The question in TFA was not whether you like it more, but whether you can click faster or more precise. The answer given in TFA is that you can't really.
There is only one way to find out about the quality of a gaming mouse and it is to play with it. My gaming mouse is comfortable, fast and has a lot of buttons which are all bound and used. The adjustable DPI allows me to quickly swith from a sniper sensitivity to a tank pilot sensitivity. My G500 also has hyper-fast scrolling which is useful to find specific pages in huge documents or doing funny moves in games. Furthermore, I usually browse the web without touching my keyboard. DON'T PLAYER HATE ON ME
Ive had this mouse for almost 8 years now, I bought it new in late 03 or early 04, cant remember exactly. I still use it to this day as my main gaming mouse. I play mostly FPS, RTS, RPG's and its performed great for them all. If this one ever stops working I plan on going with a MX518 as its the same shape and design.
The basic Logitech optical mice (of the sort that you get with Dells for example) always suited me fine for gaming
I'll echo your experience. Before I switched to one of those newfangled oodles-of-buttons mouses, I used a run-of-the-mill Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorer 3 as my main gaming mouse. What it has over the most basic of basics is the two thumb buttons, and loving those buttons so much is what led me into the multi-button goodness (which I loved, up until I stopped playing WoW a month later, go figure). I never at any point felt that the mouse lacked accuracy or that the weight was off, or whatever else gaming mice are supposed to provide above regular ones.
I admit that I own a "gaming mouse". No, actually I own three of them, one for each of my computers at home. It's simply because the mouse that I found to work best for me happens to be the Logitech G5 (which now has been succeeded by the G500). The shape, the weight and the surface texture are all very nice, and unlike the less expensive mice, the "gliders" at the bottom are very large and the optical sensor works on pretty much every surface I tried it on. I just like it, and I think that when it comes to an input device you use all day long, you should buy something you really like instead of saving $30 and then being annoyed for years until you buy the next mouse.
I use an old microsoft (gasp!) trackball that rolls off the tongue with a model number x05-87475. I use it because of the very high tracking speed on the trackball. Everything else I've bought since then would choke if I flitted the ball too fast. They either stop tracking at all until the ball slows down (or gets epilepsy) or they track backwards.
It's a big beaste too. But you have very little choice if you want a "right thumb" ball instead of a center ball. I'm amazed no one has made anything like it since then. While I've been looking, I keep running into gamers using this exact same model of trackball mouse for gaming, for exactly the same reason, all of them looking for anything like it. It's apparently the only high speed trackball to ever hit the market.
All these "laser mice" we read about, I tried one, and besides fleecing my wallet, it didn't help. I can't get used to moving the whole mouse, I'm used to just moving the ball. And I don't understand how you can do things like circlestraffe with a mouse since you quickly run out of desk space? I may yet get ambitious enough to take power tools to my pricey laser mouse gathering dust and see if I can turn it into a trackball.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I'm so glad /. is turning into wikipedia with its bullshit. Clearly if anyone says anything good about something that they bought they are a corporate shill. In fact, I am quite clearly a corporate shill for dozens of corporations because I like their products!
Personally I use a Razer Abyssus, which is cheap and has no extra buttons. However, the resolution allows me to have very high sensitivity and still have great control (Sure, FPS guys swear by low sensitivity, but I play mostly RTS). This way I can reach everywhere on the screen while only using my wrist.
Another big difference for me was putting teflon feet on the mouse and using it on a hard plastic mouse mat. With good glide everything just feels so much easier to me. I also feel much less strain in my wrist. This really can't be described, you have to try it to really know what I mean.
All this combined feels like a big improvement when I'm working as well, having to use a mouse that at max pointer speed is still slow really annoys me now.
Of course it's different from person to person what you like, this setup is ideal for me.
For those who'd like to configure a multi-button mouse on Linux, it can be tricky. I have a little writeup here for 2 models. Hmmm, server seems to be down at the moment...
Non-Linux Penguins ?
With modern mice the whole laser accuracy thing shouldn't be too much of a revelation I guess. I recently shelled out for a Rat-7 on special which I am very happy with - not because I can shoot bad guys from the opposite side of the map with my sniper rifle because of 3 levels of laser accuracy - but because of the ergonomics of the thing. As someone said above, most peripherals are over-priced, and this one wasn't any exception - the difference is I was happy to fork out the extra $$ to get a comfortable peripheral that didn't leave my hand paralysed after 4 hours of COD.
So, we use one crappy example to draw a generic conclusion? Silly.
At best you can conclude that your particular mouse needs to be turned in for replacement, or that this is a very bad model (in which case one would hope reading enough reviews beforehand can avoid a bad purchase).
But some of them are good. The Logitech MX518 was mentioned here, and I second that. I used it until it was completely worn out. Now I have a G9x, and it's also good. They just work. Everywhere.
IF you buy a microsoft mouse or a Dell mouse. you are buying Logitech...
Microsoft and Dell simply rebrand Logitech mice... yes... How you like dem apples.....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Must be a different build quality. Guess it was a good idea i went for something more simple. Once I accidentally dropped my powered MX518 into a pitcher full of sweetened tea and now more than a year later that thing still hasn't croaked.
My first gen G15 stopped responding to spacebar.... why? because of their low grade mylar carbon tracks flaked off.
Yay thanks.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
So any office laser mouse is as good as any high end gaming mouse? Or, as the summary says, are they saying their 80 dollar mouse with a frikin JOYSTICK on the side is as good as the gaming mouse? It has 18 (tiny) buttons multiplied by 64 modes for a total of 3072 commands.
The metalocity (which when I search google tries to come back with some heavy metal stuff) software doesn't even make sense how it works so I can't compare my mouse.
I think I got mine bundled in with a gateway computer maybe 7-8 years ago. The middle mouse button was always a bit flaky. In FPS where you needed to use the middle mouse button to zoom (e.g. with a sniper scope) the damn thing wouldn't stay zoomed.
In my opinion one of the best mice as far as side button access goes, my thumb can never reach them well on other mice. My switches held up for years, but mine had half a magnet in it rattling inside when I got it new (one of those which cables are pulled through) when I got it and I had to put a bit of cardboard under a microswitch before it reliably connected to the side button. Also lots of people get broken wires in the cable.
Atrocious QA, iffy build quality ... still the best mouse ever. If I wasn't tight on cash I'd buy a couple as backup.
You know, I've used a lot of keyboards and mice over the years. They've been both items that I've bought for myself, and items on other people's computers.
My girlfriend has a Naga Razor. She was very excited about it when she bought it. The first one died after about 4 hours of using it. It just blinked off, to never come back to life. The second one has been working for a few months. It has a gridword of numbered buttons on the side. After a few months, various buttons stopped working. The scroll wheel is behaving weird, and doesn't always click when pressed. The forward and back buttons doesn't work predictably.
I've been very content with the cheap mice and keyboards. I at least demand optical mice (does anyone use ball mice any more?), and a scroll wheel that clicks. For the keyboard. I expect standard layout buttons (ins, del, home, arrows). Other than those wild expectations, I see no performance difference in other devices, other than bragging rights. Who really cares if I'm using a hand crafted platinum with gold inlay mouse that cost more than a new car? :)
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I'm on my second MX Revolution after I wore out the buttons on my first (about 3 years use). Even if I have to keep replacing them at the same rate, it's still the best mouse I've ever used. Good shape for my hand, variable traction scroll wheel, and the 3-way thumbwheel + 2 thumb buttons is enough for all useful tab manipulations.
I just wish they still made them: all their 'replacement' mice aren't nearly as useful.
is the only thing I refuse to shell money out for. I actually just built a new gaming machine with a AMD Phenom II X6 1090T processor, 8GB of RAM, 1TB hard-drive, GeForce GTX 590 Video Card, HP w2207h monitor, and MS Ergonomic Keyboard 4000. Notice there was no mouse in the list and that is because my Logitech M305 does the job. It gets my mouse pointer where I want it. I don't give a flying rat's butt about two optical sensors or multiple buttons. I have macros that I can use for what extra buttons would do and as long as my pointer goes where I tell it who cares how it gets there.
I was going to mention the G5 myself; I use one at home and love it. The main features that really make it work for me are the size and shape of it (I have big hands and this mouse is fairly big), the fact that you can put weights in it to make it heavier, the extra buttons and the ability to quickly increase or decrease the sensitivity of the mouse which is great for photo work.
I guess you can only define performance once you define your priorities because my gaming mouse performs the tasks I want it to exceptionally well.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
...so I can communicate with my pals while fixing a sandwich in the kitchen or (I usually don't announce this over comms) sit on the toilet...
You might not realize it, but you probably are announcing it...
I hate talking to people on the phone or things like that when they're doing their business in the bathroom. Often those sounds, where splashing or tinkling water is involved, come through loud and clear...
Just bring back the microsoft optical trackball explorer.
I also own 2. But they're relatively cheap--Logitech mx518. They go for around $30 now. I probably end up buying a new one every other year or so, but I use it a lot as I work from home and do some gaming. Either one of the mouse buttons go, or the cord connection gets loose and it'll drop out connection from time to time. Sometimes I contact Logitech and get it replaced, but I'm horrible at keeping sales receipts. Or at least terrible at being able to find them.
And holy crap the G5's are expensive now. Who actually pays $150 for a mouse that's no longer made? I take it the mx518's are still made since they're so cheap.
I loved my G5. A few weeks ago the scroll wheel stopped working intermittently, so scrolling became a PITA. I got a G500, and it's also really great. I don't do much gaming anymore, but I really like the feel of the mouse. At work, I have a dinky mouse that my hand is way too big for, so I have to hold it with my fingertips. With the G5(00), I can get my hand around it, and the rough texture gives it a nice grip.
For a minute there, I was marveling at the idea that the biotechnology industry would have need for such specialized lab animals as high-performance gaming mice. (Do you reckon they count cards or are experts at reading a bluff?) Then I realized we were talking about computer hardware. (Yes, I had a very good weekend, far away from work.)
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
"Aye hates mieces to pieces" [WB Sylvester the Cat]
I also do not play many games. But my son does, and the retro PS/2 interface seems preferred over USB as it appears to have lower latency. Myth?
Heh, I stopped slamming my mouse when it stopped working--when mice started having optical sensors and not some rubber roller ball.
I've never felt the need to buy anything other than a standard Microsoft USB Basic Optical Mouse...
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
I concur.
But you forgot to add a good software package to create and edit powerful macros on the fly.
P.S: The last Logitech mouse (G700), can be both wired and wireless a win win situation.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
I don't care about click speed, I care about movement accuracy. When my hand twitches a little, does the mouse accurately send that information in a timely manner? If I wanted faster clicking, I'd use software with an auto-repeat feature.
I use a decent Logitech laser mouse and it has very good performance and fairly good responsiveness for a wireless mouse. On the other hand, I've used office mice that I have to shake around to get a response out of.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Polling rate on USB is configurable. (Many gaming mouse change this, but on Windows it's just a registry setting so it can be done manually too).
So I guess this is a myth.
They are the $300 Monster cables of the gaming world. I thought everyone knew that.
But AFAIK, PS/2 generates interrupts (not polled) so could be faster by 1-10ms.
"Aye hates mieces to pieces" [WB Sylvester the Cat]
Mr. Jinks, actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixie_and_Dixie_and_Mr._Jinks
Hey, do I win pedant for the week award? :-D
Latency of both USB and PS/2 is well below a fraction of human reaction time. So it doesn't matter at all. No myth, just hype.
I thought the WarMouse sounded familiar. It was also known, once, as the OpenOffice Mouse. Its lead designer, Theodore Beale, is also known as Vox Day. Vox Day is a anti-evolution, anti-feminist, christian writer and blogger who believes -- amongst other things -- that all atheists are sociopaths.
He is the author of a handful of poorly reviewed games, including the tedious looking The War In Heaven.
None of this will affect the quality of his mouse, it should live and die by its merits. But because of who is behind it, I for one, and going to give it a miss...
What do you know I wrote a novel
Microsoft and Dell simply rebrand Logitech mice... yes... How you like dem apples.....
I don't like them, because those are road-apples. Wake up and smell them.
Microsoft and Dell sell their own mice, made to their own specs. They're not selling rebranded Logitech gear. This kind of nonsense comes out all the time by people who have no idea what they're talking about, and gets read and regurgitated by people often enough that these rumors get accepted as true by the extremely gullible, or by people who can't tell the difference between a factory and a design. Disassemble a few, or many, and compare them. They're not the same, even if they may share a few common internal components.
John
I'm thinking less and less that this dude is a shill and more likely a troll. I'd wager that he read one too many accusations of 'shill' and decided to show somebody what a real shill would look like.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
However, that does not mean it doesn't matter or is imperceptible. Humans can perceive things they cannot react to; oftentimes these are called "feelings". Furthermore, many games have finger-twitch challenges that certainly will respond inside of 1 ms. If a gamer successed more often on one than the other, then that is also data.
I'm a gamer and build my own systems over the years. Lets be clear what I consider performance.
- Smooth movement (is it jumpy or does it smoothly move the icon or view in game)
- Comfort of mouse (does it feel good to my hand so my hand won't hurt later)
- Buttons (Are they quality? Do they depress easily? Are they located in the right spots?)
- Software (Does the software allow me set sensitivity and map keys?)
Mapping out how fast a click response rate is stupid. Of course there won't be little difference.
The purpose of getting a more expensive mouse are the additional features. If anyone purchases a mouse because "it's response rate is faster than an average mouse" is just stupid. I have a Razer mouse and it vastly exceeds in my performance criteria than the standard Microsoft Intellimouse.
I've tried about 20 different mice while gaming and coding and non perform for me as well as the $70 Razer I have. Is it right for everyone? no. But their study is flawed.
I have a Logitech MX518, with it's DPI cranked up to 1800. I am very quick with this mouse, whereas any of my friends who touch it tend to be slower, as the increased sensitivity often means they overshoot buttons on screen.
I would hazard that the testers might be quicker using office mice because that's what they are used to.
To much anime is bad for the brain...desu.
Sorry. Couldn't help it.
It improves your usability a lot.
This gave you away.
Brain Drain in the Marketing department is becoming obvious...
- Dan.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
I notice a huge difference with gaming mice. Most importantly:
1) Anything less than 1800dpi is horrendous, esp for FPS
2) Wireless is a joke
3) Mapping one of the side buttons to shift, alt, or ctrl exponentially multiplies your keyboard hotkeys.
That being said, mice like the Naga are absolute overkill.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
That depends on the game. If you're playing Quake-style deathmatch, sure, that kind of camping is lame.
I play things like Project Reality where the maps are enormous and the gameplay is much slower. You squad up and hike across the map for a good several minutes without any enemy contact (though you have to be constantly on your toes). You reach a river. The whole squad crossing at once is suicidal, so you go in pairs, with everyone else staying in the trees and ready to provide cover fire. With 30 seconds for each pair to cross the river, you're going to be sitting there watching your sector for a while. Constantly looking around to keep your mouse awake just makes you easier to see. When you see a muzzle flash on the far bank, you have to react fast: the shooter's already cycling in the next round, and he's sure to have friends. The 1 second it takes your mouse to wake up is an eternity when the guy crouching next to you just took one in the head.
If you live through that exercise and make it to the enemy base, the first part is easy: run in, blow away anyone who objects to your presence. But then you have to hold the territory until you achieve the capture, which means a couple minutes of hiding on the porch or behind some sandbags, holding your breath. It's not going to be a surprise attack: you know the reinforcements are coming; it's just a matter of when and where. Moving means you become the canary. Lag - including from your mouse - means you will let your squad down when half a dozen bad guys with assault rifles jump out of the alley.
I agree that the "high resolution" portion of the gaming mice are complete bunk. After a certain point, it doesn't matter much unless you are playing on a really odd surface (like nearly unblemished glass). What matters most is the features.
I can play equally well in terms of accuracy on a cheap dell laser mouse as I can with my $100 mouse. I have the $100 mouse because I use the buttons/features (adjustable palm, thumb, etc...) which the cheap dell mouse doesn't have. If I switch out for a different mouse, I go back to a $30/$40 Logitech MX series mouse and it's fine. It's all about the other features on the mouse, not the resolution of the laser.
Re G19 LCD. No it doesn't. It can't.
It's a feature designed to make you take your eyes off the screen. How exactly does that help? If you have to take your eyes off the screen you're doing something wrong.
I find being offended by me offensive.
it's why most corded gamers refused to go wireless initially, because the perceptible delay was so damned frustrating.
For me it's a matter of 'I've got enough damn peripherals that use batteries and I've got 8 USB ports on my tower...what's one extra cord?'
I don't think that it matters too much when it comes to keyboards. All I look for in a keyboard is a standard layout, no built-in wrist rest, and some decent tactile feedback from the keys. Beyond that, everything else are just nice extras. My current keyboard has illuminated keys with rubberized surfaces. It's the best keyboard I've ever owned, but it was also very expensive. Without the two extra features mentioned, it wouldn't be any more expensive than $20.
Mice do matter however. Some mice are simply better at things like games and graphic design due to the devices' DPI. Beyond that, optimal size and shape vary greatly from one person to another. For my money, I also like to have a thumb button.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
I usually spend more on a brand "gaming" mouse because of the extra features and the quality. Being able to change DPI on the fly is very useful(for me) in FPS games. Also, the 4.5k DPI lets me set mouse sensitivity to low and crank up the DPI. This means my cursor moves 1 pixel at a time instead of 3-4.
I also find that optics on higher end mice track on many more surfaces than cheaper mice. I also find brand gaming mice to be extremely durable and the last a long time.
I've used different mice, and I have seen an improvement in my gameplay depending on the mouse. I recently purchased a Zalman FPS Gun Mouse. It took a little getting used to, and I don't really like it for anything outside a FPS, but my accuracy did go up once I got used to it. Now this may have someting to do with the way you grip that mouse, but I think it also had a lot to do with the fact that you can switch between 3 different dpi settings with one button as well as the versatility of the various buttons on the mouse. I agree that its best to use whatever mouse your most comfortable with. $12 office mice just don't offer all the features the expensive gaming mice offer and those features make a difference in gaming. If all I did was check my email and write memos in word, then I wouldn't really care about what mouse I used. However a 13 button gaming mouse is great If I'm trying to heal up 5 team mates in Arathi Basin in WoW while kiting a Rogue, healing my self, AND keeping an eye on our flag, I'll take all the features I can get. I think the point is, Gaming mice offer features tailored for gaming, and exactly how useful those features are depends on the user and the game they are using the mouse with.
Circle strafing has gone out of fashion in shooters over time. Shooters have gradually drifted towards high damage hitscan weaponry. This results in small fast clashes that end before someone can strafe in a circle.
It hasn't gone entirely extinct. The remake of Serious Sam, and Borderlands still rely heavily on circle strafing, and of course, older games won't go away.
I liked my trackball too, and I got great results with it at the time, but I've moved on since then.
Yeah it's a pretty crappy test.
Where are the tracking accuracy tests? e.g. use something very accurate to move the mouse to position A, move it to position B, move it back to position A. How far is the cursor now? Get a machine to make the mouse draw a circle, does the mouse draw a circle or is it an oval? Repeat at different speeds.
Where are the max speed tests? There's a limit to how fast some mice can track, beyond which they guess and/or limit the max delta.
Where are the latency tests? How much time between mouse click, and the mouse click actually getting to the PC, compared to other mice? Same for mouse movement.
Surface compatibility tests? Repeat a subset of the above tests over different surfaces.
The highest value is in cheap microsoft mice, they seem to have a ridiculous high build quality for the price, excellent shape and flawless behavior.
for about a decade I used microsoft trekker wheel mouse, a ridiculously good ball mouse that sold for 8 euros and later 5 euros before disappearing, and then I'm currently using a "wheel mouse optical 1.1" that costs 11 euros. I like lightweight mice with classical shape and three buttons and this is it. No parasitical movement when you lift it, even by a few millimeters!
Real gamers map all their keys to a nostromo anyways... or whatever they're calling it these days. Who needs more than a few buttons on the mouse?
http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404
Is my UID low enough to say I agree with the GP without being labeled a troll? I had the MX 1000 and now I have the Revolution MX. Both are fantastic devices with THOUSANDS of hours on them each. My only complaint is that the mousewheel scroll doesnt work anymore
Good-bye
As far as I know it's limited to 120Hz on Windows (I guess the interrupt is really just on a timer, then).
USB can do far more.
Yeah the first gen G15 spacebar was terribly designed. IT ended up where you could only strike it on the left side or it would jam.
Good-bye
They do have a 2nd gen Revolution MX. Saw it at staples the other day. They raised the button behind the scrollwheel too high and removed the thumbwheel. I instantly hated it
Good-bye
It's called the Logitech G5. I've had mine for something like 4 years. The one time I had a problem, I called logitech and they mailed me a replacement. Best mouse I've ever used. Has just enough to get stuff done. (well NOW it does... I do miss the second shoulder button, which they fixed when they revised it)
I have the same double-click bug too on my MX Revo. Otherwise it was a good mouse. Terrible shame.
Between me and my GF, we've had 4 or so 18 key G15s that we've used over the years. The paint flakes off the keys after awhile (Which is when she replaces hers) and I replaced mine for a keyboard problem that ended up being something else software related. Neither of use has ever had keyboard problems, much less space-bar problems. I've taken mine apart periodically to clean it out and continue to use it too this day...
I'll keep that in mind when I go to buy my next keyboard. I'll either get the G510 or a DAS with a G13 style "gameboard". I do remember having a keyboard with that issue (half of space-bar would work), but I can't remember if it was a G15 or not (I don't think it was... but I could be wrong)
A good mouse allows you to point where you want quickly and repeatably with minimum stress. Extra buttons are a nice bonus if they're ergonomically successful.
I've used 3 optical mice and the best one is 20% slower than a ball mouse because it's erratic. Wireless mice are even worse, occasionally cutting out even if the receiver is only 2" (5 cm) from the mouse.
It's freaky to hold the mouse in one place and watch the cursor climb up the screen. I've never had a ball mouse do that.
Optical mouse technology has a long way to go before it's right.
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My ultimate "gaming" mouse, is actually not a gaming mouse at all. It has the basic buttons (who needs more anyways) but has a very cool feature : I can recharge it with a micro usb connection WHILE playing ...
This is great when when the battery runs low during a long gaming session, the battery indicator on the mouse turns red. Plug it in and continue to play !
Also this mouse works on a glass table ... which can not always be said from other L.A.S.E.R. mice.
Falling for the "gaming" tag on the box is for idiots and signature geeks.
Same shit, different day
Under linux, device drivers are written in 2 parts. The first responds immediately, and usually just records the event and notifies the OS. When the OS feels like it, the second part is activated to do the heavy lifting.
I suppose they can be written differently for special purposes.
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The one and only time I spent more than £20 on a mouse -- a Razer brand which had no features beyond standard buttons+wheel other than being advertised as a "gaming" mouse -- its left button broke after 2 weeks. I got another few days of use out of it by breaking the "warranty seal" over the screw holding it together and propping up the flimsy microswitch under the button so its dry solder joint stayed connected.
A 10-button office mouse I bought for 1/3rd of the price lasted well over a year.
My old Logitech optical trackball (so old that I'm looking at it now, but the model and such have worn off the bottom) works great. There's no flick of speed that causes problems. They don't make this exact one anymore (and haven't for at least 5 years), so I don't know what I'm going to do when it breaks.
Learn to love Alaska
The MX1000 was a bucket of shit. I had one and so did my sister. Both of them had the usual godawful RF issues. You needed the damned thing to be right next to the wireless base with a clear line of sight or it didn't work worth a shit. Even when it did, it couldn't track at remotely high speeds and had a jitter when you tracked slowly. Thankfully, the G5 I'm using now is working far better (I'm never using a wireless mouse on my desktop again), but I think the left button is starting to go.
I've always been dubious about gaming mice, because the advertising usually focuses on their high resolutions. Even obsolete ball mice had resolutions high enough that were capable of producing more data than could be transmitted through the interface.
It used to be suggested to use old PS/2 interfaces instead of USB interfaces, because it was easier to increase the hardware polling rate on PS/2 interfaces. However, even then, the real problem was that the original default polling rate for PS/2 mice was 40hz. Increasing the polling rate to 80hz made a noticeable difference; that later became the default polling rate for PS/2 mice (I think with Windows XP, on the Microsoft side of the fence). The default polling rate for USB is 125hz. It's debatable whether it's humanly possible to perceive the difference in resolution this makes.
The advantages of optical mice are better ergonomics and less trouble with crud collecting on moving parts. The only thing that distinguishes modern optical mice is ergonomics. Choose the mouse that fits your hand; the rest is irrelevant.
I have to agree as well. I'm still using my original Logitech wireless keyboard. First wireless keyboard and mouse combo. Can't even count the number of hours I've spend on it, but I've had it since late 2002/early 2003. I have switched the mouse since then, as I wanted more than 2 buttons and a scroll wheel, but it lasted several years until replacement. Considering switching the keyboard on my main computer with a new one, but I can never find a reason to other than "shiny!". So, I still use the old one, and it works great. Headsets are all pretty decent, and the speakers are logitechs from about 2003 as well. Can't find a complaint about them, myself.
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
Maybe I'm just too stuck in my ways, but after trying my ePeen 'must have benchmarks!' customers "gaming" mice I went back to my plain old boring ass Logitech 3 button and was happy. I find trying to keep up in my head what button is mapped to what too distracting, especially when I have most keyboard setups are all mapped the same and I know by feel where I am on the board. It is just easier for me to reach out a finger and pop the button on the keyboard while keeping the mice buttons the same three (shoot M1, reload M3, Zoom M2) on every game. Maybe its just me but I find that better than having funky buttons all over the mouse.
Now if I could just find a keyboard mapping routine that would let me set up Just Cause I to my beloved Just Cause 2's keyboard setup I'll be a happy camper. Otherwise trying to mentally remap from the JC 2 control Scheme is just too jarring so I'll have to wait until I'm done with 2 to pick up 1 which is a shame, as 1 has some cool features of its own and it'd be nice to switch back and forth.
But this and any other problems I've had with games in the past I doubt could be solved by piling buttons on my mouse. The keyboard is just more natural for this old greybeard. Now get off my lawn!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
[quote]Circle strafing has gone out of fashion in shooters over time. Shooters have gradually drifted towards high damage hitscan weaponry. This results in small fast clashes that end before someone can strafe in a circle.[/quote]
Read: Newer games are boring and rely less on skill.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Astro-turf some more, puppet. Whatever you do, don't ever tell us what you didn't like about the product (and no, "greatness might be expensive!" doesn't count). That wouldn't please your masters. Of course it is total coincidence that the two products you most favorably mention are made by the same corporation. Yeah, uh huh.
Logitech: another company I won't ever buy anything else from ever again. C'mon corporate America. Keep showing me how underhanded you can be. It is good to know who cannot be trusted.
Huh? As it turns out, good products create fans. That's how having consistently good products works. My desktop has a Logitech keyboard/mouse combo, and my Anywhere MX for my laptop is the best mouse I've ever used. I really can't think of a single thing I'd improve about it. I'm sorry there's nothing significant I don't like about a product that I can tell you. But before you call me a shill for Logitech as well, consider that I'm a Microsoft employee.
How wonderfully hypocritical of you. Either the mouse lives and dies by it's merits, or it lives or dies by the creators reputation, but you can't say it should live and die by it's merits, and then pass on it for reasons unrelated.
Yeah, I pretty much couldn't stand a keyboard that didn't have macro keys like the G15 (and I do so like that LCD panel. Mine's a bit long in the tooth - I have no specific manufacturer loyalty, but no-one seems to make a decently priced alternative to the G15 so I don't replace it).
I mean, you might be thinking it's due to games - but you'd be wrong. You can almost use it as a sort of macro editor for development. Hit G1 and sit back while the keyboard cleans out your build folder, executes the test projects, and runs the build. Sure, I could do all that with pre-build tasks, but what sort of developer doesn't use the wrong tool for the job occasionally just to prove it's possible?
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
I apparently didn't phrase that last line as I intended. What I meant to says was:
Which is not a contradiction. Very few people know, or care, who Vox Day is; nor are they likely to let that affect their mouse choices. A very small minority will care, and will either buy it because it, or walk away. But it won't be what makes or breaks the sales of this mouse.
What do you know I wrote a novel
If it's a corded mouse, it may never goes to really deep sleep. Cordless mice are the ones that have very aggressive sleep patterns.
This sort of game I've often thought would be a great idea. However it always falls down when I remember that on-line FPS gamers cant really work together. BF Bad Company 2 is about the only example of where you can kind of have team players and that's pretty much only because you get extra points for reviving, assists, resupply and spotting.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I used to play Day Of Defeat (in good old Iron Fist League...) and was often the team's sniper. Even when camping I would constantly move the mouse; partly because the DoD sniper rifle sight moves to simulate breathing, partly to scan a slightly larger area. If your mouse is idled down you aiming at one point only, not tracking targets or scanning the edges of your field of view, and are a horrible camper anyway.
Not a sentence!
~20ms? You're a bit off, almost by a factor 10: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php
Or on wikipedia if you must: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time
That decision is entirely up to you. You now have information you did not before, AC. Now you can decide what you want to do with it.
What do you know I wrote a novel
I think to play a game like the one he's describing - a mod, especially, which these days aren't as popular as in the old days - you'd need a bunch of people you know reasonably well. Perhaps they all hang out at the same forum, or whatever. I used to play some games with that type of group from a forum (in the days of the original Rainbow Six game, and the first few sequels), and it was fantastic - most people knew each other and everyone was playing the game as intended, forming small squads and so on, with no forced mechanism like in Bad Company 2 (which is my favorite game at the moment, to be clear).
Also, when the original Day of Defeat and Counterstrike were popular (pre-Steam), there were lots of dedicated servers with groups of dedicated people who all knew each other, like we did in the Rainbow Six days. I had a list of four or five public Day of Defeat servers I cycled between, and there would always be a fair number of people I recognized playing, and everyone took the game seriously and worked as a team. The Rainbow Six group moved to Counterstrike after the Rainbow Six games kind of lost their way, so there was one Counterstrike server I always played on and it was great (I tried Counterstrike Source and besides me being terrible at it now, all the servers sucked).
I stopped playing games on computers a few years ago, partly because that community aspect started falling apart - it's hard (if not impossible) to find public servers running games as good as then now. I do try once in a while.
I play Bad Company 2 on the PS3; it's easy to just pick up random games because of the way matchmaking works there, and generally it's fine, and the squad mechanism means at least some of the time you've got teamwork (very loosely most of the time, but it's something). Hardly a replacement for the old days, but it's fun to play for an hour or two once a week or so (which is about all the gaming I do in total nowadays...)
That's the one I just bought, the lack of the thumbwheel was actually a big part of my purchasing decision. Debating another for the $DAYJOB computer.
My only objection is that I don't like the lower thumb button, the hit point isn't quite right.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
Mods are where it's at. Boxed releases are meant to be easy for a broad audience, most of who can't handle teamwork.
PR is *brutal* on people who can't work as a team. Occasionally you get some dork who won't follow orders and just Rambos around. He quickly ends up without a squad. Soloing in PR sucks - long stretches of hiking with no action, then a well organized squad takes you out. They get frustrated with that routine pretty quickly and uninstall the mod, having decided it's lame. The ones that remain are fair to good.
I used to be in Bellum Aeternus on PlanetSide. We played the Vanu team (generally considered to be "hard mode" for PlanetSide, at least back then). The clan was great - coordinated assaults and organized defense can take out utter hordes of Terran / NC zerglings. Over the course of the day we'd completely take over most of the universe, triumphing even when the other two races would team up against us. I heard it fell apart eventually, though.
Long ago, it was lmctf (Loki's Minions CTF mod) for Quake 2. That was the most fun I've ever had. Again, lots of people who know the basics: Coordinated, communicating base defense organized at choke points; designated flag carriers and escorts carrying appropriate runes; people who understand and use sophisticated tactics. "ROAR! ... This... is CNN." ... You had to be there. :)