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Could You Pass Harvard's Entrance Exam From 1869?

erfnet writes "The New York Times remembers back to when 'college was a buyer's bazaar' and digs up 19th-century classified ads from Columbia, Harvard, Yale, and others. In competitive efforts to attract students from the limited pool of qualified candidates, applications were taken as late as September for an October freshman class. Vassar offered lush room accommodations. The expectations were high: Latin, Greek, Virgil, Caesar's Commentaries; Harvard's entrance exam from 1869 is posted (PDF). Could any of us pass the exam today?"

112 of 741 comments (clear)

  1. Nope by heptapod · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I doubt they'd be able to pass a modern test either. These people grew up with a different curriculum than those at the latter half of the 20th century / new millennium.

    1. Re:Nope by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2

      This is especially true with regards to languages; Greek and Latin are optional, if even available, while it seems as though they were mandatory back then.

      --
      SSC
    2. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I'm a Harvard grad, and I can't answer any of the questions involving Greek and Latin translation on this test. I'm about 50% on the History and Geography section off the top of my head (i.e. without looking anything up), and the math sections look pretty trivial. All this proves is that we don't learn as much History and Geography these days, even at Harvard, and Greek and Latin simply aren't important parts of the average high school (or college) curriculum and are no longer considered mandatory knowledge for an educated gentleman as they were in the 19th century.

    3. Re:Nope by PFI_Optix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the whole thing speaks volumes to the disconnect between academia and reality. While an education in the high points of historical philosophy might be of limited use, much of that is pure nonsense intended to filter out undesirable applicants who, while quite capable of learning and performing, lack the "breeding" to be accepted. It was a great way to ensure that only like-minded people got degrees and continued the cycle.

      Colleges have gotten a lot better in the past century, but they still spend a lot of time making sure you think how they want you to think, or at least can pretend to.

      Disclaimer: I'm a college opt-out who was accepted to Harvard but didn't go (I applied just because I could). I decided there was a better way into the real world that the bullshit you have to endure at university. Take that how you want.

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      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    4. Re:Nope by perpenso · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yet it's interesting to note that they were expected to know Greek and Latin from high school (or equivalent.)

      There was also a much greater emphasis on Geography back then. Nowadays that's an optional course.

      Math is an optional course today. Last I heard my former HS is only requiring one year to graduate, pathetic.

    5. Re:Nope by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2

      if math, geography, greek and latin are optional courses now, what the devil do they learn in school? Oh, thats right, nothing.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    6. Re:Nope by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just curious - how did you acquire enough experience to decide not to go to school based on that reasoning, if you never wen in the first place?

    7. Re:Nope by PFI_Optix · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I did go to school, just not Harvard. A year in university before dropping out and going to work, then three more semesters at other schools before deciding I was right to stay away.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    8. Re:Nope by russotto · · Score: 2

      I doubt they'd be able to pass a modern test either. These people grew up with a different curriculum than those at the latter half of the 20th century / new millennium.

      The exam was probably a little easier than it appears. The three translation questions are all out of classic literature (Greek, not Latin), and they give you most of the words, so it's likely largely a matter of having memorized the translations of those phrases and (failing that) knowing Latin declensions and conjugations. The various history questions would have been part of the curriculum for a college-bound student as well. Math hasn't changed much; it seems strange that Harvard students are expected to know British currency, though. Presumably log and trig tables were provided. The arithmetical complement of a logarithm is a calculating trick which would presumably be familiar to students then -- instead of subtracting a logarithm, you can take its arithmetical complement (10 minus the logarithm), then subtract 10. This avoids doing subtraction of long hairy decimals.

    9. Re:Nope by zill · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've never even heard of Greek being taught in high school...

      I heard Greek is mandatory in Greek high schools.

    10. Re:Nope by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Colleges have gotten a lot better in the past century, but they still spend a lot of time making sure you think how they want you to think, or at least can pretend to.

      That's pretty much the purpose of schooling as a whole, at least in theory. Why would you seek an education, if not to learn how to think? I can dig up facts and figures any time I want, as long as I know how to research; what schools should be teaching is the ability to put those facts together into a cohesive model, and apply them to the real world. If anything, I think schools should put more emphasis on teaching students how to think and research, and less time focusing on rote memorization.

      As an aside, I have no idea why you got modded "troll". I hope some people with mod points will correct that.

    11. Re:Nope by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They learn that Heather has two mommies, that Islam is a religion of peace, hurt feelings run the world, and how to throw all of that into a inspirational powerpoint presentation.

      Modern School is nothing more than a giant social engineering program that is failing our kids.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    12. Re:Nope by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Math isn't really universal. I'm taking courses to teach English abroad, and the one thing that keeps coming up is that math is not a universal language. Most people do not study it anywhere near long enough to get to the point where they can genuinely communicate everything they need to about a situation using mathematical symbols. And many people have a diminished capacity for such reasoning anyways.

      Things which one takes for granted such as the order of numbers are hardly universal, there isn't an innate sense that 10 is smaller than 12, and for some students if you want them to turn to page 100, the will flip page by page until they get there. Now, with education, that can be changed, but it's hardly innate.

    13. Re:Nope by metlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The idea behind a liberal arts education is to become a well-rounded person, with a (hopefully) better understanding and appreciation of the world around you.

      This is something that is sorely missing in the vast majority of the population today, thanks to the transactional view of education. The idea of applicability to real life is something that was perpetuated by the likes of corporations, who needed skilled people but did not want to train. In fact, until fairly recently, companies offered training programs outside of your acceptance, and it was a given that you would learn those skills when you joined a company. These days, that is passe.

      Colleges have become trade schools, and are expected to teach trades that are applicable to a job, with little else. Except for a handful of top notch schools, the vast majority lack depth in what they teach. This lack of appreciation and understanding stretches to both the sciences and engineering as well as the arts and humanities. No one wants to learn computer science, they want to learn programming. No one wants to learn the philosophy of morality, they want to get a law degree. No one wants to learn how to paint or understand the fundamentals of the visual arts; they would much rather learn "animation" and "game design" join a design studio.

      The unfortunate side effect is that this is a shift in perception, one from when people wanted to be well rounded and enlightened, to one where people merely want to learn a skill and make money.

      And if you think that historical philosophy is not enlightening, or even applicable to the real world, you are missing out on some of the greatest thinkers that this world has ever produced.

    14. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      On top of that, I'm not sure the demographics are even remotely comparable either. The college-for-the-masses thing in the US didn't really start until after WW2. In the 1890s, high school wasn't even mandatory yet for most of the country; checking wiki (history of education in the united states) that didn't happen until decades later, and initially it was only mandatory to age 14. In 1890 there were only 200,000 high school students. Period. In the entire country. And that's a few decades after the given test date. And we're not told what was a "passing" grade for that entrance test (it was unlikely to be the "this test is geared such that if you don't get at least 90% of the points, you have failed to master it enough" that we use today for the more serious stuff like college admissions).

      From another direction, we have dropped the Greek-Roman fetish that was the style of the 1800s, when it was a point of pride that ALL western history and culture (and therefore all history and culture of any value) descended in a direct unbroken line from them to us. Heh. Once freed of that notion, there's a lot more history to cover, and it's more complex, and we're fairly more honest about it, there's 150 more years worth of it, and we're informed by modern anthropology (didn't exist yet, back then... not as the serious science it is today). For that matter, biology and chemistry have completely changed too. And we have more great native-english literature, such that you don't have to build the whole literature curriculum on another language anymore. Oh, and much more math. Hell, you can get into math in high school today that we hadn't even agreed on the notation for yet in the mid 1800s.

    15. Re:Nope by gadzook33 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ok, could you pass the math part? I have several degrees in engineering and I don't think I could. But then, upon reaching grad school I always felt I was woefully under-prepared compared to the 98% of my class that wasn't from the US. Looking at this exam just reminds me of that. And it doesn't look like the inclusion of general relativity would have slowed these guys down much.

    16. Re:Nope by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have to learn how to read those church inscriptions somewhere, right? I've not learned any Romance languages using my Latin as a base, so that's pretty much all I can do with it. You're totally right about the beauty of the language - being able to stand in St. Peter's and read TU ES PETRUS, ET SUPER HANC PETRAM AEDIFICABO ECCLESIAM MEAM... that was pretty cool.

    17. Re:Nope by jdpars · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Learning Latin and Greek open up an entire world and culture to a student. When they are taught outside of the terrible rigor and memorization we always hear about or see from Hollywood, they are terrible. But when instead they are shown to be gateways to the rise and fall of whole civilizations, well, it gives a student perspective. Another way to think about it is like this: few subjects have what my teacher-education classes call "enduring understandings." These are supposed to be more than facts, but knowledge that stays with a student throughout their life. There are so many of these with subjects like classical languages that they permanently affect a student's life. Yes, many of the elite would educate their children in Latin and Greek, and the knowledge or lack of knowledge on these subjects was probably used unfairly to judge applicants. But the languages were studied because there was value in them, and to this day there still is.

    18. Re:Nope by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      At the time, Harvard was a very different school than it is today. Gentlemen only, please, and if you didn't know Greek and Latin you'd definitely not had a gentleman's education.

    19. Re:Nope by jdpars · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just some more info to aid metlin, "liberal arts" comes from Latin "artes liberales," literally the "freeing arts." Up until very recently, these included science. The modern definition (at least in the USA) of liberal arts is art, music, literature, language, social sciences, and history. That's a horribly lacking bunch. I spent almost two years as an engineering major before switching to a "liberal arts" degree and I feel I am only just barely well-rounded because of my strengths in math and science.

    20. Re:Nope by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 3, Informative

      And before any of you think that the PowerPoint presentation is in jest - I've got a client who's son is in grade 7 this year. He has to purchase the school "blessed" laptop and in return must run Microsoft Office 2010 (they heavily use OneNote, which has no alternative, free or otherwise), as well as the Adobe Creative Suite 5 Master Collection.

      Now, this suite of Adobe software retails for over $4k here (sure, there's a massive edu discount) but I can't believe they're being taught this when in school I learned BASIC and LOGO.

    21. Re:Nope by Entropius · · Score: 4, Informative

      OT: That inscription is CREEPY, if you know all the symbolism behind it.

      All the other cathedrals are expressions of some sort of artistry, or aspiration to heaven, or whatever.

      St. Peter's is this imposing thing that says I am the Pope; I am the most powerful man on Earth; do as I say or suffer the consequences. And then there's that inscription -- "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church", said by Jesus, for those who don't know the Latin -- inscribed above the canopy where only the Pope can say Mass, as if to say "I am Peter's descendant as Pope, and Peter is Jesus' successor, so to slight me is to slight Jesus, so do what I say!"

    22. Re:Nope by jbeach · · Score: 2
      Also, Biology including evolution, Astronomy, Chemistry; Algebra, Trigonometry, Calculus; Computer programming; Print shop, metal shop, and actual knowledge about health.

      If you want to see more of that and less "social engineering", then more money should be put into them.

      Also it's worth realizing that most places in 1869 didn't even *have* public schools. An eighth-grade education was quite sufficient for an agrarian economy mostly reliant on unskilled or blue-collar labor.

      Most kids today really do know a lot more than most kids at the same age back then - at least as far as abstract knowledge. Of course, most "kids" back then were married by 19 because statistically they'd probably be dead at 38.

      --
      The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is what punches workers in the nuts.
    23. Re:Nope by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      While it's true that "how to think" is an important skill, the basic idea of a canon of knowledge (aka rote memorization) is really very important. A shared body of knowledge is critical to communication, and if it's present can make expressing very complex thoughts much easier. It's not especially important for most people to know that Luther nailed 95 theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg in 1517, but it's important to know that it happened after the Crusades and before the Enlightenment.

    24. Re:Nope by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2

      if math, geography, greek and latin are optional courses now, what the devil do they learn in school?

      In Baltimore County, 3 years of math are required for high school graduation, and that must include algebra and geometry. YMMV; the greatest myth about the American public school system is that there is one. In fact there are probably thousands, when each county or city with some degree of local control is accounted for.

      Taking into account my long-ago high school experience, plus what I hear that the kids are studying these days, besides math, geography, and Latin (none of the schools here seems to offer Greek) students might be studying English literature, creative writing, history, cultural anthropology, archeology, economics, civics, philosophy, sociology, psychology, biology, chemistry, physics, Spanish, German, Japanese, French, Chinese, Italian, Arabic, drafting, carpentry, auto repair, construction, electronics, first aid, health and fitness, cooking, computer programming, dance, theatre, music, studio art, or photography. I'm sure I'm missing a few options.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    25. Re:Nope by grolschie · · Score: 2

      Koine (New Testament) Greek != Ancient (Classical) Greek != Modern Greek.

    26. Re:Nope by rolfwind · · Score: 2

      Places like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, more often than not, is more about getting to learn the right people rather than just subjects. Some people people try to network/schmooze a million other people in some pathetic attempt to advance, going to these schools allows you access to colleague that will be in the advanced ranks in coming years and have them see you as one of their own.

      Right now, most SC justices are from Yale/Harvard despite the fact that most SC justices historically never even graduated from law school:
      http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/DC-Decoder/2010/0511/Elena-Kagan-not-a-judge-Well-at-least-she-went-to-law-school

      Of course, exceptional people can overcome that, but that requires extra work, and comparing 2 people who are pretty much the same, the one who went to the right schools has a definite advantage. Another aspect of that is the old "nobody got fired for buying IBM" type thinking.

    27. Re:Nope by Sir_Sri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      the question becomes: is it the same greek as being asked here. In 1869 Greece was 20 years independent from ottoman rule and still basically a nothing state on the world stage (not that it's much of anything today). Greek as taught in modern greece (or in this case 1860's greece) is not necessarily the same as the various versions of greek that would pre-date the modern world. There are classical language courses you can take at some schools, including universities, but the version of greek harvard is asking about in 1869 probably has relatively little bearing on contemporary greek of that period let alone modern greek.

      Today you can find greek in a smattering of countries, italy, turkey and greece being the big ones, but armenia, ukraine, cyprus and a few others as well, but no more than a person today could do well with old english (which is nearly unintelligible), or middle english (shakespeare and KJV bible era, which is somewhat comprehensible).

      I think probably if you could pass that exam today you could probably still do well in most liberal arts programmes at least. It shows an ability to grasp foreign languages (always handy), and a relatively diverse reading set. Not that there wouldn't be better measures of success today though. I think a modern scientist faced with an exam from 140 years ago might have a lot of trouble. There's language, terminology and style advances, skills that have largely been obsoleted (by for example the calculator), and then well, we know more now than they did then of course. Even if the math is the same, the way the math is written has changed quite a lot (hello matrices!). Any test carries with it the context of its time, and there's probably a ripple effect. What is today a challenging entrance exam at harvard or a PhD level topic in programming will 20 or 30 years from now be pushed into the highschool curriculum, and then 20 or 30 years later it will likely be long forgotten as it is supplanted by new problems and techniques.

    28. Re:Nope by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure I understand why some people here are getting so defensive about it. The article never claims that we should go back to using that test, it is simply presented as a historical curiosity and might invite one to reflect on the standards of today; particularly for me it brings up the balance between the liberal arts and the more vocational paths taken by engineering programs like mine.

      I'm not ashamed I can't pass it. Well, I am a little bit, because I fail the Latin sections miserably and took 3 years in high school. Nonetheless, it is fascinating to read though, because it provides a window into the education and mindset of the leaders and high society of the antebellum era.

    29. Re:Nope by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a substantial difference between teaching you to reason and teaching you reason in the same way as other academics, inevitably reaching mostly the same conclusions. It is not without reason that academics have been accused of living disconnected from the real world, having convinced themselves that their highly theoretical model of how the world works actually reflects reality. Or perhaps ideological models is the right word, most working men have a more pragmatic approach.

      Then again, I'm not so worried about academic people out of touch. Far worse are the career politicians that have never had a "normal" job in their life, all they've done is to work for political organizations. They have some very funny ideas about how the world runs plus an overinflated ego about their own importance. They only decide how to split the cake, they're not the ones baking it.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    30. Re:Nope by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      True, by our standards the math portion of their test would be simple by the standards of anyone applying to Harvard (and seriously expecting to get in), where top tier students are learning advanced calculus in high school. It's interesting that although history and geography haven't changed much, our focus is very different, being far less focused on ancient history and far more focused on the past few hundred years (including, in the US, events occurring shortly before 1869!).

      I suspect candidates back then would be stumped with our math/science tests, even if we played fair on the latter by only testing on scientific development that occurred before 1869. It's interesting how focus has changed.

    31. Re:Nope by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 2

      I think it's more because of the mass media focus towards not dropping out: If you're smart and say "I dropped out", most peole will look at you wondering why you did such a silly thing. The proper responce to that is to explain /why/ you dropped out, and avert the question.

      Personally, I just went to a tech college and got a degree in Precision Machining(+cnc). Who needs to suffer through academia when there's plenty of blue-collar jobs that pay a lot out there? Especially when that four-year degree may not net you a job at all.

    32. Re:Nope by JanneM · · Score: 5, Interesting

      there isn't an innate sense that 10 is smaller than 12

      I have a hard time believing this. Got any references (except mentally retarded and seriously underage ones)?

      I think the OP may refer to the fact that above some small number (5-6 or thereabouts) we no longer have a preconscious sense or relative magnitude. If you put one set of five objects and one set with six objects, you can immediately, unthinkingly point out which set is the larger one. And so can anybody, including children with not a day of education, and even some other animals (their limit may differ of course).

      With 10 and 12 objects, you need to count. More to the point, you need to learn how to do so. You can longer rely on any kind of automatic perceptual or cognitive ability to do so.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    33. Re:Nope by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Meh, I'm not Catholic, so it didn't really bother me. The Church is a human institution, no doubt, but it spent a long time as the only civilizing influence in a lot of Europe. I know why people condemn it, but (like any other institution) its bad sides aren't the entirety of it.

    34. Re:Nope by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      of course we also train a lot more people too (both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population). In practice the details of law, and the depth of knowledge that define a law degree are no less than that required to define the philosophy of morality. The few that truly grasp the latter in addition to the former can become professors. Everyone else just gets a law degree.

      The more complex the world the more time needs to be spent to understand it at any level. I don't think schools lack depth, in fact I would argue they have tremendous depth (and choice), but it is implicitly assumed that you both study and learn something about morality when you take a degree in law. Animation is a college not university thing, so I won't hit on that (that really is job training, there are Uni level comp sci courses on animation but that is an exercise in kinematics, physics and rendering, a somewhat separate problem again). Game design, which is where I live, is a whole other ball game. There's the 'arts' side of design, which incorporates psychology and writing, essentially 'how do I make it fun'. There's no painting involved, and it's much more about storytelling and pacing but with a game development twist (along with all of the things that make a game a game, death, violence, or lack thereof, complexity and so on). And then there is the 'science' side of design (which is what I do), which really is an exercise in computer science. How do you define and test balance? How do you quantify and assess all of those things the 'arts' designers need as tools? How complex is this problem? The broad philosophical question "what is fun" is certainly covered, a lot. But in practice you need to know 'how do I define fun' 'how do I know if it is fun' rather than just 'what is fun'. The devil is in the details as it were. I can write you a 40 page paper on what is fun, but it's worthless unless I can translate that into numbers in a program that runs and actually *is* fun. The standard has been raised from a general understanding to a specific one.

      Virtually all of my students * ARE* well rounded already. Admittedly I see physics, math, chemistry, engineering and CS types and the occasional wayward business student. They have a grasp of, and an internal model of how the world behaves, where they fit in it, and how to learn and understand problems. They wouldn't be in university if they didn't. What they need is depth of understanding of a specific area. Everyone of them has some high minded idea of what morality is (and, if so inclined can easily find the classic texts on whatever your topic of choice is), but if you cannot apply those principles to solve real problems they have no value. Not because the principles themselves are valueless, they aren't, but because they all get the principles already, what they need is to understand the details of real problems.

      It is the difference between the people who complained a lot about democracy in libya and got nice cushy faculty positions in the UK and the US from it, and the people who are now trying to actually build a system of government. Some of them are even the same people, but the latter are just as committed to the principles of democracy as the former, they just have to spend time building electoral districts, a parliamentary system and voting rules.

      Don't kid yourself for one moment, the people learning the enormous depth of information required to actually solve problems understand and appreciate the world around them. That's why they are invested in learning to actually solve real problems at all. 140 years ago you needed to worry about people who 'got the big picture' much more than today. Teachers are better, information is more accessible (and cheaper). It's much easier to a make a student reasonably well rounded now by the time they're done high school. But of course nearly everyone graduates high school. In canada it's about 90% of people by the time they are 24 have completed high school, compared to the US in 19

    35. Re:Nope by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      I was educated in US public schools, but I am pretty sure that I could ace that one, and that by todays standards it would have been considered an easy test.

    36. Re:Nope by definate · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Who needs to suffer through academia when there's plenty of blue-collar jobs that pay a lot out there?

      EXCELLENT!

      I've been looking for a good quote to show people in the "jobs going over seas" threads. This way when blue collar workers are complaining about their salaries/jobs going over seas, I can reference this which shows either the mentality of their compatriots, or even themselves.

      Blue collar workers who passed up the opportunity for higher learning, and still continue to pass it up (eg, refuse to go back), despite the fact that the price of their labour is decreasing, to amounts they can't afford, resulting in their jobs being moved over seas. Who then cry foul, and want us to bare the cost of their lack of skills through regulation, subsidies, or similar.

      This is perfect. Thanks!

      --
      This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    37. Re:Nope by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Comparing just life expectancy for 20 year-olds, in 1850 a young man could expect to live to 60.1.

      http://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-the-1800s-not-as-bad-as-reported/

      19 year old kid would likely live to 60. Problem was reaching 19 due to early childhood deaths (under age 10). Typical of misunderstanding of how life expectancy works.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    38. Re:Nope by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      The idea behind a liberal arts education is to become a well-rounded person, with a (hopefully) better understanding and appreciation of the world around you.
       
      This is something that is sorely missing in the vast majority of the population today, thanks to the transactional view of education. The idea of applicability to real life is something that was perpetuated by the likes of corporations, who needed skilled people but did not want to train.

      Colleges have become trade schools, and are expected to teach trades that are applicable to a job, with little else.

      Um, no. For most of their history colleges were job training programs - intended to produce doctors, lawyers, priests, government ministers and functionaries, etc..., etc... The 'liberal arts' programs designed to produce a well-rounded person are a rather late development and have always been the minority.

    39. Re:Nope by dakameleon · · Score: 2

      Even if you weren't travelling or conducting business in Britain itself, 1869 was pretty damn close to the height of the British empire, and you would certainly be conducting trade with them. London was a centre of finance with greater weight in global commerce than even New York today, so it's not surprising to find an interest calculation in pounds.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    40. Re:Nope by mcmonkey · · Score: 2

      The algebra, trig, and geometry is all pre-calc. I would hope a high school junior expecting to go to college would get most of those. (Certainly one expecting to go to Harvard or study any hard science.) The only one I doubt I'd get was the one with square rods.

      As for the Latin & Greek, give me a zero on that section.

      I comfort myself knowing my physics and chemistry would win multiple Nobel prizes.

    41. Re:Nope by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "The unfortunate side effect is that this is a shift in perception, one from when people wanted to be well rounded and enlightened, to one where people merely want to learn a skill and make money."

      The problem is there is too much people want to experience today and too much work. Over the centuries education as we know it was not a requirement for existence. Over the last few hundred years public schools were invented to deal with the demands of the industrial revolution. You have to understand the very origin of schooling for the masses. What you're talking about is schooling for the elite, the people who could afford to be learned. People who had enough money/sheer interest to enjoy education for it's own sake.

      The educational requirements today just to exist keep going up and hence this is why universities are flooded with applicants who want skills for money. It's the natural outgrowth of needing more and more just to earn a living, or at least it is from societies perspective whether it is true or not.

    42. Re:Nope by dingen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Seriously? Wow. Here in the Netherlands, both Latin and Greek are still very common on the highest level of high schools (gymnasium). You don't have to pick both of them to graduate though, but one is usually mandatory.

      --
      Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
    43. Re:Nope by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Yes, I was surprised by that comment too. The maths part of the test is tedious, but none of it is actually hard. I'd find it quite time-consuming, but that's largely because most of the things on the test I learned before I was 16 and haven't actually had to do for over a decade. Almost any of those questions now would be answered with the aid of a computer, so if I had to solve them with just a pen and paper then it would be more effort. I'm pretty sure that one of the proof questions came up on my GCSE exam (taken aged 16). The only minor problem is that mathematical language has changed slightly at some point between Harvard 1869 and the UK 2011, so I had to read some of the questions a few times to work out what they were actually asking.

      The Latin questions were tedious, and my Latin is really rusty, so I'd be surprised if I got even half marks there, but my Latin was a lot less rusty when I applied to university. My Ancient Greek is almost nonexistent, so no marks there.

      I found the Geography questions the most interesting. The subject has changed a lot, and is now a lot more about understanding processes, rather than memorising locations. If anything, this test shows that the humanities have changed a lot more than the sciences in the intervening period. I'd expect a modern maths exam to be of a similar form ('calculate this, prove that', with an emphasis on the latter), while a modern Geography or History exam would focus a lot more on causes and processes than places and dates.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    44. Re:Nope by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      it was unlikely to be the "this test is geared such that if you don't get at least 90% of the points, you have failed to master it enough" that we use today for the more serious stuff like college admissions

      It always surprises me that the US makes the grade boundaries so high. It seems to be a sort of anti-elitism. The difference between a perfect student and a passing student is only 10%. The exams end up containing lots of filler questions, which no one who was awake for the exam could get wrong and then just a small number that actually separate the students.

      In my university, a pass was 40%, and the top grade was 70% or above. The spread for the top students is greater than the spread for all of the passing students in a typical US exam. It's always entertaining when students on exchange from the USA first sit an exam and think 'oh, if you only need 70% to get the top mark, the exam must be easy', don't bother studying, and walk out with 20% or so.

      If a student actually gets 100% on an exam, then it means that the exam isn't really assessing them properly, because all it gives you is a lower bound on their ability. If lots of students are getting 100%, then the system is seriously flawed.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    45. Re:Nope by Ecuador · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and still basically a nothing state on the world stage (not that it's much of anything today).

      Us Greeks appreciate your insight...

      Anyway, I don't hold grudges, so I will still answer your "question".
      Looking at the exam, the "Greek" it refers to is, of course, ancient Greek (the easiest form though, similar to what was used in the Hellenistic period). (At least written) Greek of that period (katharevousa) was actually pretty close. But in any case, ancient Greek is still a mandatory part of Greek high-school (Latin is optional) - I can read Hellenistic period works with no University level training in the subject.
      The difference is that in 1869, the classical languages were a big part of university education, since the ancient body of knowledge was comparable in volume to the -at the time- modern one. So if you wanted to go to the University, you had better learn your Greek/Latin well. So, even if ancient Greek is currently taught to all in high-school, students who want to study engineering or math in college, usually do the minimum and end up not learning much in those courses. But high school students who want to go into classics, literature, philology etc, will know the Latin and ancient Greek for this exam. They would find the particular test quite awkward though, as nowadays the focus is translating FROM Latin/ancient Greek, while this test is the reverse, although it tries to make it easy by translating most words for you.

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    46. Re:Nope by Tom · · Score: 3, Interesting

      *wave* - over here.

      I want to a public school that taught latin starting 5th year (i.e. when I was 11) and greek starting 10th year (pupils aged 16-17).

      Ok, this is good old Europe, we're not being bred to become burger flippers. Maybe that's a point. And yes, it's not your average school, but it's neither an expensive place (free, in fact, just a regular public school) nor very special.

      Education can be had if you want it (for your kids). But you do have to look around and make a good choice. It's not everywhere. And - and that's probably the main point - you have to have some yourself in order to understand how to make that choice.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    47. Re:Nope by stink_eye · · Score: 2

      Oh so true! Because we all know that people aren't graduating from college at the moment drowned in debt with no viable job's in the offing! Bravo! I'd say the knuckle dragging blue collar worker probably has a leg up on the debt saturated graduate in this period of the American Economy.

    48. Re:Nope by spauldo · · Score: 2

      Wow, you should talk to your school board. Around here, they teach math, science, history, literature and composition, and various elective courses including the various shop classes, art, music, home economics, and varoius others.

      My sister (who is graduating this year) never mentioned a class on how many mommies Heather has. Even in Oklahoma, it doesn't take a whole semester to tell them "two". She didn't take any comparative religion courses or classes on hurt feelings, so maybe those were electives.

      She did learn Powerpoint along with the rest of the Microsoft Office suite, but so what? Back when I went through school, I took typing for pretty much the same reason - it's used in business. She'll be off to college next year, and knowing her way around a spreadsheet and word processor will aid her greatly. She'll get more use out of it than I did from learning Pascal.

      If you're worried about the social engineering that makes up such a small part of the curriculum, be sure to imprint whatever hate and racism you feel your children need at home. School has never been a replacement for parenting.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
  2. different time by satsuke · · Score: 2

    Ah yes, the education of that day, based on assumptions that are still present in some form today.

    Might have been a more refined age, though for today I'm pretty sure your average CS major needs to be able to quote Dante in his original language about as much as he needs an extra heavy bender prior to the big test.

    1. Re:different time by daniel_mcl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please tell me you're kidding. Latin != Italian.

      And for that matter, heaven forbid that college should be about getting an education instead of necessary vocational training. Clearly knowledge is worthless except as a bullet on a résumé.

      --
      I used to read Caltizzle. I was a lot cooler than you.
  3. This is not a question. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    "To circumscribe a circle about a given triangle."

    I fail.

    1. Re:This is not a question. by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2

      that... that is easy.... locate the center-point of each leg of the triangle with a compass, and plot a line perpendicular to it, locating the center of the triangle, then use the compass to plot the circle, beginning at any point of the triangle. takes like, 10 seconds.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    2. Re:This is not a question. by BradleyUffner · · Score: 2

      that... that is easy.... locate the center-point of each leg of the triangle with a compass, and plot a line perpendicular to it, locating the center of the triangle, then use the compass to plot the circle, beginning at any point of the triangle. takes like, 10 seconds.

      His point is that the "question" is not in the form of a question, or even a set of directions. It is a fragment.

  4. hmm... by ShiftyOne · · Score: 5, Funny

    I wonder if they were allowed to use calculators?

    1. Re:hmm... by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 2

      What was Soylent Green then?

    2. Re:hmm... by Convector · · Score: 5, Funny

      I feel certain there was no rule forbidding the use of calculators.

  5. lol@Exam [hint:joke] by buchner.johannes · · Score: 4, Funny

    Man, if the examiner had been smart he'd written page 3-4 in LaTeX and saved himself a lot of handwriting!!!!

    --
    NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  6. Re:Would they do the same exams again? by zill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To be fair, there weren't exactly a whole lot of science back then. Plus much of the scientific knowledge in 1869 were available exclusively in Latin, hence the emphasis on the "dead language".

  7. Educational standards by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Could any of us pass the exam today?

    Well, the theory of relativity, evolution, anything about computers, most modern medicine, etc., would be straight out because they didn't exist then. And I doubt many people here would disagree that knowing how to use a computer and a basic understanding of physics something every college would want in its students. It's no use trying to test ourselves according to the standards of over a hundred years ago... we know so much more about the world it's not even fair. The smartest person of that era would look like a total idiot today just trying to get by with what we take for granted -- driving a car, using a cell phone, browsing the internet, etc.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Educational standards by daniel_mcl · · Score: 4, Informative

      If your idea is that the average person alive today -- never mind the average high school student -- has any knowledge at all of relativistic mechanics, evolutionary biology, computer science/engineering, medical science, etc., I think you'll find you're sadly mistaken. Yes, the average teenager knows how to use a cell phone. Clearly this is an insurmountable obstacle, and Isaac Newton himself would be unable to figure out my Nokia.

      At any rate, the material on the "arithmetic" and "algebra" sections is still taught and used in schools today, and I'll outright guarantee you that if I printed those out and took them to a Calculus III section at the local university I'd be unlikely to get a very high pass rate, despite the fact that most of them have memorized how to take dozens of integrals or apply Lagrange multipliers.

      Knowledge isn't worth as much as people seem to think; at its heart, it's just trivia. What matters is the ability to think, and that doesn't change from generation to generation.

      --
      I used to read Caltizzle. I was a lot cooler than you.
    2. Re:Educational standards by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OK, here's a revision. With a week's training, I'll bet the 1869 man could drive a car, use a cell phone, or browse the internet. Could you, with a week's training, learn algebra, geometry, trig, history (in depth), geography, Latin and Greek? The two sets of tests aren't equivalent. (Sorry, I'm being a bit unfair. You did mention relativity, evolution, computers, medicine. But relativity isn't taught in high school. Evolution is a simple and obvious concept. Medicine, beyond the germ theory of disease and other easy bits, isn't taught in high school. That leaves computers.

      The obvious lack in the old test is science, there should have been something on agriculture or animal husbandry, or medicine or astronomy.

      The obvious "We don't care" for modern times is Greek and Latin.

      The sad lack in modern education is history. One reason our modern politics is so thoroughly screwed up is that a high quality understanding of history has been lost to the general population for a century.

      --
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    3. Re:Educational standards by Draek · · Score: 2

      With a week's training, I'll bet the 1869 man could drive a car, use a cell phone, or browse the internet.

      I'll take that bet. Try teaching 70-years-old people to drive a car, use a cellphone or browse the internet. Then remember they're people that saw those technologies be born and mature in front of their eyes throughout the years, while the 1869 man is not.

      In fact, I'd bet if you took a hundred volunteers to teach a hundred 1869 men to do those things, after a week at least half your groups would've seen casualties from the 1869 man killing either himself or his teacher on account of the alleged "satanism", "dark magics" or such of the technologies in question. Sure they're Harvard alumni, but technology shock can be very powerful even for otherwise smart and clever people, and if you've taught old people you've probably seen it yourself.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    4. Re:Educational standards by metlin · · Score: 2

      Poor example. I wish someone had taught you the basics of statistics in school -- your selection group is awful. 70 year old people, really? Have you looked at the scope of cognitive development in a 70 year old?

      Assuming you take a normal age group, your assumption is blatantly false. You've clearly not worked with refugees, or people from societies that have not seen or used modern devices. My wife (who, incidentally, goes to Harvard) volunteers with healthy policy organizations. She works with people people from the middle of nowhere in Africa, who have been granted asylum and arrive in the US. These are folks who have never seen or heard of things such as cellphones and cars, who go on to get driver's licenses, use computers, and cellphones on a regular basis.Some of them are quite easily in their 40s, even, and learn these things.

    5. Re:Educational standards by mgbastard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The sad lack in modern education is history. One reason our modern politics is so thoroughly screwed up is that a high quality understanding of history has been lost to the general population for a century.

      I was looking hard to see if anyone had a glimpse of why greek and latin are important to education. You almost nailed it.

      We've lost the art of teaching of how to think. The gentlemanly Greek and Latin were taught towards skills in reading texts, not in conversing to Joe Greek on the street about how he feels today; the pupil is then empowered to read many great and early works documenting the foundation and thought, and its progression, that form the fundamentals of our knowledge in philosophy, government, sciences and mathematics. Reading the literature of the time in the original source language conveys the subtext much more fluidly, thus enabling full comprehension. Individual languages are colored by the culture speaking it: Much is lost in translation. If you are to understand how to think, and achieve parity with where we have already tread in thought, then you need to understand first-hand how we arrived at the present knowledge, complete with the traps and tangents, not just the right answer. You learn how temporary some right answers are, giving you the humility and perspective to grow beyond the works of mankind thus far.

      --
      Anyone seen my low uid? last seen 10 years ago while panning the #@$# out of Taco's 'web based discussion system'
  8. PDF Files? by LazloHollyfeld · · Score: 5, Funny

    I find it hard to believe they had PDF files in 1869.

  9. Re:re Maybe by antifoidulus · · Score: 2

    Could a Harvard graduate from the era be able to send an email from a laptop? Would he know how to even turn-on the laptop?

    I guess it would all depend on the time scale. If you set a laptop down in front of him(and they were all males back then) and said, "Send me an email in the next 5 minutes stating your name and major" then yes, he would fail. However if you gave him a day and allowed him unlimited access to the laptop then he might be able send one. Critical thinking skills are pretty timeless, and unfortunately seem to be lacking in today's college environments.....

  10. Apparently you fail in reading comprehension by Calibax · · Score: 4, Informative

    True, the ink stamp on the documents is 1899, which is likely to be the date they were added to the Harvard library. You will note it is stamped on top of the content on each page and is clearly not part of the original page.

    However, at the bottom of each page it gives the date as 1869. This date appears to be part of the original page.

    Apparently you failed to read each page completely. One fundamental rule of all examinations: read the questions fully. That hasn't changed.

  11. My grandpa could have passed this; I don't need to by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

    After utterly failing the Latin and Greek sections, I think I'd get a pretty bad reputation with any reviewer, even though I could do the rest just fine with a slide rule. Of course, I could follow up the geometry section with a lovely essay relating the theories of computability, genetics, and medicine, and the reviewer would be equally confused.

    The parts that are important in modern innovation are still certainly appropriate for an entrance exam. The only difference I see between this and a modern exam is that the Latin and Greek sections have been replaced by English tests and some basic science questions. After all, the purpose for knowing Latin was that is was supposed to be the universal language of scholars, and during the burst of scientific progress following WWII, English took a firm grasp of that role.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  12. If you ain't moving.... by Wintermancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the exception of the arithmetic, logarithms and trigonometry, algebra and plane geometry, not a chance in Hell.

    Now, how well would a prospective applicant fare with some of today's knowledge? Introductory quantum mechanics can be taught at the high-school level. Now someone out Victorian era and give them the mathematical equations and they would fail due to not having the conceptual foundation to understand it.

    Hold onto your seat for the big reveal: Knowledge advances over time, but correspondingly, some knowledge is made obsolescent. How well would any of do at knapping flint knives and spears? You might make a passable one, but not one that would qualify as a quality tool in the Paleolithic era.

    Progress, folks. It's a good thing.

  13. Latin is critical to the web today ... by perpenso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What use is Latin and Greek today?

    Latin is very important today, especially with respect to the web. Have you tried to come up with a short decent sounding company name that is both trademark-able and has an available .com domain? I found it easier to accomplish with Latin than English, Perpenso.

    1. Re:Latin is critical to the web today ... by PFI_Optix · · Score: 2

      Not to mention the incessant use of Latin by people who spend far too much time arguing on the internet. Some people seem to think that the use of Latin somehow validates their point.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  14. Distorted idea of the University by Doctorer · · Score: 2

    A lot of the comments so far are of the tack that "Greek and Latin are useless" or "CS majors don't need to quote Dante". I respond that they have no idea what a university education was for over its thousand year history. If you think you only go to university to learn how to write programmes and get a job in an industry, the 19th (and even 12th) century university man would tell you to get an apprenticeship - the early 20th century university man would tell you to go to a technical school.

    Greek and Latin are still the most useful languages available for educated speakers of English because they allow you to decode almost any term in the English language, especially technical terms. Quoting Dante's Mediaeval Italian may make you as good a computer scientist as quoting Shakespeare's Elizabethan English, but the you will also be just as cultured - and I don't think anyone who understands what a university is for can claim that a cultured CS (all other things notwithstanding) is worse than an uncultured one.

    1. Re:Distorted idea of the University by Doctorer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing omitted in that observation however is that until only this very generation, being able to recall with precision what one has learned was a crucial skill in any kind of study. Moderns don't bother remembering anything (even their own phone number) because they can just "look it up". High school students unceasingly complain about having to learn the first principles of mathematics "because I can just do it with my calculator" - how much more in any other discipline (which is not so clearly procedural as mathematics) would students need a "specific education" if there is to be any hope of them learning further?

      I do think that universities are mostly to blame here, having flocked to the fashion of generating money-spinning faculties (like "commerce" and "journalism") while abandoning the faculties that gave the university its identity for centuries (philosophy, history, theology).

      There are some overlapping faculties (such as engineering) which both teach a mostly technical discipline while also requiring a more advanced theoretical foundation, and these probably do still belong at the university... but perhaps the time is coming when we will have to look more closely at the "BS/BA only candidates" and the "graduate studies material". Actually that's already happened, with a sharp divide between the undergrads who happily toddle off to their careers in industry and never darken the doors of the academy again, and the lifelong academics who seem never to leave at all.

      Perhaps the thing I find most objectionable is the indignantly anachronistic egalitarianism on display in the comments here, for the most part by people who know nothing of education (or scholarship in general) beyond their own experiences as a one-time student. Latin and Greek are not "stupid shit" put up as a wall to keep the unwashed masses out, they were (and remain) an exceedingly useful foundation for any advanced study in any discipline with a European vocabulary. At the turn of the (last) century, French may well have taken a dominant role in European correspondence but it only worked because everyone worth writing to had a working knowledge of Latin and Greek.

  15. Re:Would they do the same exams again? by seyyah · · Score: 2

    To be fair, there weren't exactly a whole lot of science back then.

    Do you really believe that?

    Plus much of the scientific knowledge in 1869 were available exclusively in Latin, hence the emphasis on the "dead language".

    1869 not 1689.

  16. Re:re Maybe by zill · · Score: 4, Informative

    PROTIP: Latin America does not speak Latin.

  17. Re:Damn, should have gone for classics in high sch by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2

    "To circumscribe a circle about a given triangle."

    locate the center-point of each leg of the triangle with a compass, and plot a line perpendicular to each, thus locating the center of the triangle at the intersection of these lines. Then, use the compass to plot the circle the center-point of the circle being the same as that of the triangle, and the radius of the circle being the distance from that pont to a Vertex of the triangle. beginning at any Vertex of the triangle, circumscribe the circle about the triangle, returning to the same vertex the circle began on.

    more or less. its a word problem, with a word answer, perhaps a diagram would be expected to be drawn along with the answer.

    --
    I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
  18. Tricky, but aimed at a specific type of knowledge by parmadil · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm two weeks away from a master's degree in Ancient Greek. I'm not sure I'd pass the Greek portion of the exam. Why? Because it focuses on extremely rigorous memorization of obscure details (and I'm talking obscure details of an arcane dead language, mind you). I can read even difficult Greek pretty well, but that doesn't mean I can decline 'trirs' (a noun in a highly unusual declension), or form the correctly-accented participles of 'histmi', or decline much of anything in the unusual dual number, off the top of my head and without consulting a grammar. Nor, I think, could most of my colleagues. The translation *into* Greek, however, is quite easy. It's a hard test for college freshmen, to be sure, but it's also testing based on a very different sort of educational objective. Passing the Greek section requires more memorization than actual competence in the language.

  19. Latin answers by dsanfte · · Score: 3, Informative

    Translation:

    1. Me non refero quam divitem esse Gygen. (Unsure how to decline 'Gyges' but we'll go with that for accusative. I guess it's a Greek paradigm.)

    2. Quis clarior Graeciae quam Themostecles? Quis, cum in exilium expelleretur, injuriam suae patriae ingratae non tulit, sed idem quod ante viginti annos Coriolanus fecisset?

    3. Primo veris venit consul ad Ephesum, et militibus ab Scipio acceptis apud milites contionem habuit, in qua, virtute sua collaudata, adhortabatur ad novum bellum cum Gallis suspicandum, qui (ut inquit) Antiochum auxiliis iuverunt. (I left in 'ut inquit' and 'in qua' although they were meant to be omitted. I wondered if the last bit should be infinitive/accusative construction due to indirect speech, however I think 'ut' demands the indicative.)

    Grammar:

    You could copy this out of Wheelock so I don't see the point of reproducing it here.

    --
    occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
    1. Re:Latin answers by orzetto · · Score: 2

      [Ego] non refero quam divitem Gygen esse.

      Me is the accusative, you either use the nominative ego or you don't use the subject at all (it is understood by conjugation of refero). Also, verb should be last in sentences (usual, though no rule). Vale.

      --
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  20. Practical/vocational math classes by perpenso · · Score: 2

    If they don't need the knowledge, then forcing them to memorize it (which they would likely soon forget due to the fact that it isn't important to them) would be rather useless and counterproductive, would it not? I'd say some of the more advanced math classes should indeed be optional because many people won't really use the knowledge.

    I would not advocate that everyone take college prep math classes. What I would advocate is that everyone take some sort of math class. Schools should have two math tracks, college prep and practical/vocational, and a student should be taking classes in one or the other. This is not an original idea, I'm basically describing what my grandmother told me about HS in her day. The practical/vocational classes included things like balancing a checkbook, calculating interest on a loan, calculating a bill with credits and discounts, calculating your paycheck given overtime and sunday pay, area and volume calculations you might use in the home or on the farm, fraction based calculations you might use as a carpenter, machinist or cook, etc.

    I realize that there are spreadsheets, apps, etc for many of these things but in learning how to do these calculations yourself you also learn the mechanics of modern society. If more people had had such practical/vocational math when in HS then perhaps adjustable rate mortgages would not have been such a mystery?

  21. Re:Would they do the same exams again? by Nemyst · · Score: 2

    Let's see... 1869?

    Oh, that just leaves classical mechanics, much of calculus, much of linear algebra, some thermodynamics, some electromagnetism (I won't blame them for not thinking about Maxwell's equations, which were introduced just 8 years prior and were rather obscure in their time)... Could go on.

    Nah, it's not that there wasn't a whole lot of science at the end of the XIXth century, it's just that much of the science was done after you'd get in the university. You didn't have baseline education much farther than elementary school back then (or a sort of equivalent, with languages and "humanities" being more developed usually), it was straight to university afterwards (I believe entrance age was earlier than it is now, too, but I'm not a historian). You would be expected to be able to talk, write and calculate, but not so much be half a scientific already like it is now.

    I would argue that university is a lot tougher than it has been, though, what with sciences growing over time. I mean, nowadays quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality are part of the common curriculum in a physics degree, and quantum field theory is an almost obligatory passage in a Master's. Mere decades ago this would've been left to postgrads, if taught at all.

  22. Money, motivation, and prestige in 1869 by erice · · Score: 2

    Two things bear heavily on the difficulty of being admitted to a school:

    1) The reputation of the school at the time of application.
    2) The pool of qualified students with the means to attend.

    1869 was a time when most people in the US made their living through manual labor or subsistence farming. Neither occupation offers the means or the motivation for higher education.

    And I have to wonder just how prestigious the Ivy League schools were in 1869. This was just 90 years after the revolution. I expect that "schooled in Europe" carried more weight than any kind of degree from Harvard. What did it take to get into Cambridge in 1869?

    1. Re:Money, motivation, and prestige in 1869 by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And I have to wonder just how prestigious the Ivy League schools were in 1869.

      It is worth noting, in this context, that Harvard once offered the chair of astronomy to Galileo. They've been around for longer than most think. At the time, of course, admission was much more predicated on pedigree than intelligence, but then again a good pedigree is actually a reasonable first estimate of intelligence.

    2. Re:Money, motivation, and prestige in 1869 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    3. Re:Money, motivation, and prestige in 1869 by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      You're talking about families that have stayed wealthy for many generations, even after the feudal gravy train ran out. They are obviously doing something right.

    4. Re:Money, motivation, and prestige in 1869 by Confusador · · Score: 2

      A good pedigree is a reasonable first estimate of education.

  23. Re:re Maybe by hedwards · · Score: 2

    The reason for Latin and Greek being required is that it was believed up until sometime in the 20th that knowing those languages in particular would make a person smarter. Basically the brain would grow strong by having to contort to handle those languages.

    We know now, that it's not really the case that the benefits of learning Latin or Greek are not inherent to either of those languages anymore than any other languages a person might learn beyond the first.

  24. Re:You got it by mini+me · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The world is no longer a place where most people are labourers and an elementary education is all that is needed (if that). It is a complex, information based, place where people need to know more. That means more schooling for all.

    If anything, higher formal education is less important now than it was in years gone by. Today, the complex, information based, place we live in allows one to learn about anything on demand, in seconds. Unless your interests are purely academic, you don't need the full background of a given study crammed into a short time period to solve problems in the real world. Like someone commented earlier, knowledge is just trivia; being able to think is all that matters.

    What really happened is that the universities found the appeal in money. More students equals more income. The lure of higher incomes advertised on false premises attracted people in droves. One of the best marketing campaigns to date, in my opinion.

    University is a fantastic place for one to pursue their passions in the study of a given topic, but to say more schooling is needed to survive outside of academia seems a little misguided. I do agree that you can never stop learning; if university is the only place you can learn, more power to you.

  25. Re:Would they do the same exams again? by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

    To be fair, there weren't exactly a whole lot of science back then.

    There was a lot of incredibly important science going on back then. It just wasn't in the same areas as now, and it wasn't expected to be studied heavily before college.

    To give a taste of what was going on scientifically:
    * Biology was in the middle of radical developments, as Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was getting developed, while Gregor Mendel's was quietly developing genetics.
    * In geography, there had recently been the establishment of the Prime Meridian going through Greenwich and international efforts underway to standardize longitude.
    * The metric system was spreading throughout Europe, in part because of Napoleon, but also in part because it was easier to work with than the alternatives.
    * A couple of decades earlier Charles Babbage had built the first thing that could reasonably be called a computer, and Ada Lovelace was kinda programming it.
    * Louis Pasteur was improving vastly on the understanding of microorganisms and vaccination.
    * Claude Bernard proposed and described what is now known as the scientific method.
    * In economics, there were lots of new ideas floating around, with Karl Marx forming the ideas of communism, while Carl Menger was forming the basis of the Austrian School.

    Now, there was definitely different emphasis: Anyone who was expecting to be an educated person had to know Latin, Greek, and probably French. Many were trying to enter the clergy, so there was more emphasis on religious matters than there is today. But to say that this was a period of scientific stagnation would just be flat wrong, given that there were a lot of major discoveries going on right around this time of the sorts of principles that we now take for granted.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  26. Re:re Maybe by c6gunner · · Score: 2

    But the point is, TFA is bull, the curricula is irrelevant, we are not smarter or stupider today than 142 years ago.

    Actually, the data seems to show that the average IQ has increased quite a bit since then. Of course, this is probably due to the increase in abstract thinking abilities amongst the populace on the lower end of the scale, but it certainly does suggest that, as a people, we are more intelligent today than 142 years ago.

  27. Vs today, political motivations, class filtering by itzdandy · · Score: 2

    surely the vast majority of Harvard applicants would fail this test. Greek and Latin or quite depreciated. Simply replace those languages with equivalent questions in relevant modern languages or subjects.

    One strong point of modern college is that language classes have be depreciated for fields they have no bearing. A robotics or CS major will have zero use for latin or greek or really any language other than english.

    On the other hand, Latin is an immensely useful language if you are planning a major in any romance language. Latin Italian but knowing Latin gets you Italian at an 80% discount, Spanish at 70% and French at 60% . Its learning 4 languages for the price of 2. Greek is pretty much useless in this regard, not many languages have a Greek base that isn't already covered by greek>latin loan words.

    As other people have mentioned, some of the exam was politically driven. It had some ulterior motive built in to exclude those of a lesser social class. Sure, greek and latin had more value in education at that time but not so much that a business degree required such knowledge, especially greek.

  28. Re:re Maybe by jelizondo · · Score: 2

    When did you stop beating your wife?

    What is the proper answer?

    I managed to reach 5th grade without knowing how to "properly" divide, when by the school's standards at the time I attended elementary school, I should have been able master it by 4th grade. I managed by sequential subtraction to arrive at the right answer. But again, I never had to take group theory or elementary statistics in 12th grade like my children did.

    TFA is bunk. Are multiple-choice exams killing intellectual progress? Is it better to know how to find something in the Internet than knowing what Virgil wrote about? Should I had been sent back to 4th grade because I could arrive at the answer only thru the long around when dividing one number by another? Or should I have been allowed to continue to 6th grade and take remedial lessons? (Actually that is what happened, and today, some 40 years later, I'm a successful IT manager, dealing day-to-day with technical issues beyond the comprehension of my employers? )

    There is no way to actually measure and compare today's entrance exams to those 140 years ago, so again, there is no point. The brilliant student of 140 years ago, time-machine moved to today, would seem stupid because of his ignorance of everyday stuff. Would he do better then than today, given a few years of education? Who can tell? Maybe his best skill was buying slaves at good prices, which today would be useless.

    --
    Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
  29. Greek & Latin.. by Tex2000 · · Score: 2

    At my high school in Mexico City we had an old teacher who taught Greek & Latin, he was considered quite an erudite, Also I'm pretty sure that greek & latin ARE required for any recognized highschool in Mexico, (then again maybe the whole education system needs to be modernized in Mexico), of course it was just one class, and with one class we never got the knowledge needed to solve this exam.. I'm glad I can at least read the words and understand the general meaning.

  30. Re:re Maybe by Skidborg · · Score: 2

    Or as a human race we are more attuned to solving the kinds of problems presented by standard IQ tests. We probably have lost skills in other areas that we no longer know how to test.

    --
    Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
  31. Problem is where, not how much? by perpenso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Also, Biology including evolution, Astronomy, Chemistry; Algebra, Trigonometry, Calculus; Computer programming; Print shop, metal shop, and actual knowledge about health. If you want to see more of that and less "social engineering", then more money should be put into them.

    The US spending per student is already comparable to the UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Japan, Israel, etc. Perhaps the problem is not the current spending level but how/where it is being spent?
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS/countries/1W?display=default

    1. Re:Problem is where, not how much? by Splab · · Score: 2

      Watch waiting for Superman, they show you some of the issues with the US educational system.

    2. Re:Problem is where, not how much? by perpenso · · Score: 2

      Work was not encouraged when I was in high school. You had to get permission, have and maintain sufficiently high grades, etc. I'm not sure that sports spending is out of control. There may be quite a bit more administrative overhead in the US, plus corruption. Top administrators in Los Angeles get a car with driver, have spent $100,000+ on office remodeling, etc. Add in various vanity projects that inflate the costs of schools and other infrastructure. With respect to unions the government made the same mistakes that general motors and other corporations did. Decades ago they traded long term retirement benefits for short term concessions on "today's" wages (shifting compensation to the future), giving little regard to the bill that their successors would have to pay decades in the future. The union leaders are often a bit like the administrators too, seeking to protect and enlarge their personal power, position and expense accounts rather than represent the interests of educators and students.

      Maybe things could be summarized that the politicians are directly running the schools rather than the educators.

    3. Re:Problem is where, not how much? by Gilmoure · · Score: 2

      My daughter's public elementary school (New Mexico) has started her in on Algebra and Geometry in fourth grade, as well as actual chemistry, biology, earth science and astronomy. They're also learning not just how to use computers/office suite but the theory behind computers and information search/classification. Due to budget cuts, music and art are now taught by parent volunteers in before and after school programs as well as a lego robotics club. This school isn't a charter school but about half the students' parents work at a DOE National Lab and tend to be pretty active with the school.

      As for language, grandma (college spanish professor) is teaching her Spanish and I'm giving her the basics of Latin. She should do ok.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  32. Middle English by cdecoro · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is a minor point, but Shakespeare and the King James Bible aren't Middle English; they're Early Modern English from the early 1600's. They are almost completely recognizable to a speaker of modern English, especially once the "thou/you" distinction is explained, and with the occasional vocabulary word. For an example of Middle English, the best known example is Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (late 1300's), http://www.librarius.com/cantales/genpro.htm. That's significantly more difficult to understand, though if you sound it out, and read about the rules of grammar, it doesn't take too much practice before you can read it without trouble.

    But you're right, the big change was from Old English, which was a Germanic language that is far more intelligible to modern German speakers than modern English speakers. Our current language is highly influenced by the importation of French and Latin words after the Norman invasion of 1066.

    1. Re:Middle English by avgjoe62 · · Score: 3, Funny

      So when I was a kid, and that old guy from Sussex was always yelling, "áwiergedon cild! tengest min ediscum!", he really was making sense and not just yelling gibberish?

      --

      How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?

  33. Re:re Maybe by smellotron · · Score: 2

    The reason for Latin and Greek being required is that it was believed up until sometime in the 20th that knowing those languages in particular would make a person smarter. Basically the brain would grow strong by having to contort to handle those languages.

    Don't forget that many English words are derived from Latin and Greek words or stems. Learning both of those languages effectively expands your English vocabulary.

  34. Re:re Maybe by antifoidulus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Better nutrition, especially during early childhood, is probably a bigger factor. Studies have shown that kids who go hungry in the first 5 or so years of life tend to score markedly below those that do not.

  35. Re:let's compare it to MIT's 1869 entrance exam by 2centplain · · Score: 2
    http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/exam/

    English | Geometry | Algebra | Arithmetic

    No Latin or Greek...

  36. Origins of our Culture by catchblue22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think the whole thing speaks volumes to the disconnect between academia and reality.

    Your post, and the fact that you are rated as "insightful" speaks volumes to the shift that has occurred. Your statement, and the rest of your post, where you claim that "...an education in the high points of historical philosophy might be of limited use..." speak volumes of a profound poverty of mind, where education and the search for truth is predicated in material gain. This intellectual poverty forms us into individual intellectual islands floating through time, neither looking backwards nor forwards. We are separated from the origins of our society, our culture, our values. We forget that our society was modelled after ancient Greece. Ideas such as private property, money, justice, freedom of speech, constitutional government all come from ancient Greece, and were refined and developed by the Romans (at least during certain periods of Roman history).

    Before you write off classical education, read Plato's "The Apology", where you start to see the beginnings of the ethical underpinnings of our modern world. Read Plato's Gorgias, where Socrates carries on a debate about many issues that still rings true today. See if you can see in this quote a great summation of the modern field of advertising and public relations in his statement about "oratory":

    Socrates: The same is true about the orator and oratory relative to the other crafts, too, then. Oratory doesn't need to have any knowledge of the state of their subject matters; it only needs to have discovered some device to produce persuasion in order to make itself appear to those who don't have knowledge that it knows more than those who actually do have it. Plato - Gorgias - 459c

    Reading the first volume of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" has given me a great appreciation for how civilizations develop and change, and about how valuable our current stable democratic systems are. When you look at long succession of Roman emperors who were all removed by various methods of murder, you start to realize the value of electing leaders.

    When you speak of the "disconnect between academia and reality", I think you minimize the work of centuries of great thinkers. When you look at the world logically, you begin to realize that it is very strange. You start to realize your own limitations. It gives you a sense of humility, both for yourself and for the poor sods who think they have figured it all out. You start to realize what pathetic creatures we are, how we weave illusion upon illusion. It is the way we are, and the best we can do is to try to understand the world. However, we should never believe that we have "figured it all out", because when we do that, we effectively stop thinking. Socrates said that "as for me, all I know is that I know nothing". He spent his life questioning and seeking knowledge, but he always remembered his limitations.

    Education cannot simply be about utility. It has to also be about making us more complete as human beings. It should help us in our search for wisdom and truth in the world. Socrates said that "the unconsidered life is not worth living." When you do not consider the purpose and meaning of your own life, you become a football, being kicked around in someone else's game.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  37. Re:Agreed by azaris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I admit, I struggled a bit with the polynomials as I don't work much with them anymore, I still don't see any direct application for them even after years of working in scientific computing. Therefore, I see them as a graduation test only, meaning "If we can force you to learn this, then we can force you to learn anything.".

    Just for that you fail the exam.

  38. you're all liars by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Predictably, half the comments here reply, "Oh, wow, this test is easy except the Latin/Greek because that's not important!"

    Well, bullshit on all counts.

    (1) The purpose of learning Latin and ancient Greek is not to enable you to speak Latin and ancient Greek. They've already been dead languages for millennia and they were arguably even more dead then (Greece being even less relevant). It's an exercise in the study of language and of foundations of European culture and literature. You don't get the same experience by learning "Japanese for anime fans".

    Anyway, I "aced" Latin at school - that sort of thing was something I enjoyed and came reasonably naturally. Many years later, I have forgotten enough of it that I could not do a good job of these questions. The translations into Latin would today leave me hopeless without a dictionary. What is more, these aren't trivial Latin beginner questions.

    (2) History/geography - at least some people are admitting that they don't know some of these, though I see a lot of "oh about half". Really? Did you actually sit down with that sheet and no references and write detailed geographical and historical answers? Did you then go one by one checking at the end that they were all correct? Or did you just think "oh yeah I've heard of that before" and sneak in a "check" to Wikipedia, confirming knowledge you didn't really have to mind?

    The subject of my masters thesis was the history of an area of mathematics; background reading required me to be familiar with specific areas of classical Greek and Roman history. I enjoyed History at high school, though none of it was classical. Latin class included a certain amount of Roman history surrounding Pliny the Younger and Virgil, with an earlier school covering the historical context of the Odyssey and the Iliad. And yet I don't think I could do justice to any of the essay-type questions. "Pericles - the Man and his Policy" - really? Are even a significant minority claiming they even know more than a sentence or two about Pericles?

    (3) The maths section. Oh, what a surprise, everyone is claiming that the maths section is trivial. Well, bullshit again. I have a postgrad mathematical education and, yes, I can probably answer these questions. But I would have to think about the plane geometry proofs (which, it is likely, the candidate would be expected to have simply memorised for this test) - I can't recite all of them off the top of my head and I bet I'd stumble on some details for some of them if I were to actually write the answers all out rather than just wave my hand over the paper dismissively and say "this is easy".

    What is more, you annoying geeks, there were no electronic calculators in the mid-19th century. You know what this means? It means that half the challenge is doing the arithmetic quickly and without mistakes. And, whether by reading original Leibniz or the speling errors on /., there is one reassuring thing I have come to know (I am reassured because I do it myself and thought I was the only one): numerate geeky types make lots of trivial mistakes. A good mathematician - perhaps the sort who is intuitively familiar with geometry - might make a bad doctor or accountant, i.e. may fail in a profession where speed and accuracy with numbers is important.

    Whenever I visit Slashdot and there's a topic where people have the chance to put their knowledge to the test, I always see a huge number of people claiming that they did wonderfully at the test. And yet, in real life, hardly anyone ever performs at such superheroic levels, whether dumb, average or intelligent. This isn't because /. isn't full of super-geniuses - even though it isn't - it's because the sheer amount of information accessible in the world today means that everyone necessarily specialises a great deal. No particular random test which has not been prepared for is likely to fit the knowledge of a random sample of even fairly bright individuals.

    I guess it's just a predictabl

    1. Re:you're all liars by LordNacho · · Score: 2

      I guess it's just a predictable defence mechanism. Some moderately intelligent types at school used to do it: each time they'd finished a test, they'd proudly announce to everyone (particularly those who they regarded as competitors) how easy it was; telling them the answers to all the questions they were confident about. You know what? This sort of person never reached the top. That place was reserved to (i) the quietly confident - the real genius types who had no insecurity they needed to make up for; and (ii) the fairly talented who also happened to be extremely hard-working (and had no time for such nonsense).

      I always found it amusing when someone said the test was easy. Because of course, they'd never get it all right.

      Actually, the people who annoyed me the most were the ones who'd go "oh, it was really difficult, I think I might have barely passed" and ended up getting 100% anyway. Humble motherfuckers.

    2. Re:you're all liars by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 2

      I think your argument is that Europe and its babies are too Eurocentric ;-). This is possibly true and was inevitable before globalisation, although a degree of Eurocentricity is not necessarily inappropriate: if you grow up in Spain, say, you'll get a lot more understanding of your surroundings (physical, political, cultural, etc.) through knowledge of Greece and Rome than you will from learning Japanese language and history. There is only so much time to learn in sufficient depth and there are strong arguments for putting an emphasis on understanding where you are now before you understand somewhere half way across the world. As for some ideal of equal understanding of "all" known cultures by some point in one's adult life:

      (i) it won't actually be "all" but inevitably be a subset comprising whatever's considered fashionable/popular/ideologically sound/rich - for example, so many geeks are interested in Japan, Arab culture has suddenly become popular at the expense of Russia since US imperialism^Wpolitical interest has shifted, and still everyone pays way too little attention to African culture;

      (ii) the majority of people don't plan to bounce around the world and there's not much evidence that creation of a pan-cultural individual is possible.

      As for the "Japanese for anime fans", I was distinguishing between the sort of education one gets in a good Latin class - a combination of language, literature and history - and the sort one tends to get in a modern language class. One could certainly study "classical Japan and Japanese" analogously to Latin or ancient Greek studies, but this is rarely what people have actually done when they talk of doing something "instead of" Latin or ancient Greek.

      But there's nothing whatever wrong with learning more modern foreign languages in addition to learning the basis for one's own or another culture. My oddball choice at school happened to be Russian. It is no coincidence that I have always found Russian history and culture interesting, but learning the language did less to explain for me where I am now than did learning about Rome or Greece.

  39. Re:Agreed by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    I did three years of latin at school, from age 11-14 (in the UK), although no greek. I'd say it was one of the more useful subjects that I learned. When I learn any romance language, it's relatively easy to pick up words because I can understand their derivations, so I can often guess the correct meaning for new works that I encounter. Latin lessons also had a far more formal treatment of grammar than English (or French or German) lessons, which was useful both for learning to write correct English and when I went on to study the design of programming languages.

    Of all of the subjects that I learned at school, Latin is the only one where I ever find myself wishing I'd paid more attention in class.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  40. diverging contours of cluefulness by epine · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You haven't heard from *all* the drop-outs, have you? And many of the people who didn't drop out, but stayed in the system a little too long, are guilty of the converse Kool-Aid.

    There have been an increasingly dire series of reports that many (expensive) post-graduate degree mills are steering their studious lemmings over a career cliff.

    This as it becomes increasingly unclear why a person needs to pay big money for higher education in a world where it's hard to think up anything you can't find out about in 30 seconds or half an hour.

    If I had stuck it out in math class and learned how to do the Laplace transform and other manipulations of the s-domain, it would have saved me a phone call or two to other people who stuck it out in math class. And even without the training, I can fill in the blanks cook-book style, and I have a pretty good idea what the s operator is all about. I'd be hard pressed to improvise, but how many people out there would you trust to improvise on the subject of analog filter design?

    I'd also like to figure out the structure of the electromagnetic field in our measurement product, but none of the people I know who stuck it out in math/physics class can do it any better than I can. If we're determined to know the answer, we're going to have to use an electromagnetic field simulator.

    Here's an example of the knuckle cracking involved just to warm up to the problem:
    The Velocity Factor of an Insulated Two-Wire Transmission Line

    But I'm sure Lawrence Pritchard Waterhouse could scribble out the answer free hand on the back of his entrance exam, because it occurred to him while proving that "circles are to each other as the squares of their radii" that he had never constructed a Sierpinski curve that carpets the unit circle, and that lead to other things.

    In my initial survey of computational options, I discovered MEEP, under the GPL, from MIT. Scheme/C++/Python front ends. I can do all that. Correctly setting up temperature and frequency dependent complex permitivities in several different bulk materials, and not missing out a crucial factor of 1/2 pi somewhere, I'd really want to have someone "educated" to check my work. On that little DIY proposition, I think just opening the box is a three day exercise. With another six years of formal math education, I could maybe even contribute some patches.

    Kenneth Arrow

    I quote this all the time. And this is old school, already. I'm amazed at the resilience of mass pyramid schemes in the modern workforce. It works this way in pro sports. For every four kids with the talent to "make it big", three drop out due to injury, bad timing, or circumstance with little to show for it, while the kid who makes tenure with the big club reaps huge rewards; not even counting the untold hours invested by kids who dropped out far earlier in the process. The same evolution is taking place in academia these days: $30,000/year as a post-doc shifting test-tubes in some dank over-lit basement. Sign me up.

    In the post-Arrow world, the relationship of education to knowledge or common sense is becoming ever more tenuous. I think Temple Grandin has been underemployed in modern curriculum design. On a bad day it feels like the fundamental economic output of the modern labour force is income disparity.

    Gone are the days, it seems, that one could get by having the skills and personality to make a positive contribution to the world around us. Yet the opportunity to contribute, as gated by the availability of the core knowledge, has never been greater.

    What the world needs is a way for bright kids to drop out of the overpriced educational treadmill without being suspected of having a chip on their shoulder. Or educated voters who give a damn, but the second item seems out of reach. (Is it just myth that back when education was rare, presidents spoke inte

    1. Re:diverging contours of cluefulness by LateArthurDent · · Score: 2

      If I had stuck it out in math class and learned how to do the Laplace transform and other manipulations of the s-domain, it would have saved me a phone call or two to other people who stuck it out in math class.

      So what you're saying is that somebody needs to take the class, which makes it pretty clear why we need it. Not to mention that I'm not entirely clear on how you would even know whether you would need to use a Laplace transform unless somebody who took all those classes informed you about it. Or somebody who took all those classes wrote the wikipedia page that you found. There are always people behind the knowledge you are searching, and these people need to learn it.

      I'd also like to figure out the structure of the electromagnetic field in our measurement product, but none of the people I know who stuck it out in math/physics class can do it any better than I can. If we're determined to know the answer, we're going to have to use an electromagnetic field simulator.

      People who stuck it out in physics will be able to look at the result of the simulation and be able to tell 'hey, this is obviously wrong.' Not only are those things not bug-free, but often the operator isn't, and might not have set the geometry or the values for the material correctly. Also, the people writing that software need to know something about the physics. You can't just stop teaching this stuff.

      There's an awful lot wrong with the education system, but skipping it altogether is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to revise the system, not tell people that it's ok to drop out. It's not, and the more advanced we become the more that will be true.