Slashdot Mirror
China Calls Out US On Internet Freedom
rsmiller510 writes "In an interesting case of the pot calling the kettle black, the Chinese government released a report criticizing the US government of being hypocrites where Internet freedom was concerned — criticizing others for cracking down, yet circling the wagons when it involves US internal security (WikiLeaks anyone?). And the Chinese might have a point."
If you keep saying the U.S. isn't all about freedom, we'll bomb the shit out of you!
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
For a shame society, they really have none...
China shouldn't be calling anyone a hypocrite. As furious the barking in Washington has been there's no bite, and nothing compares to China's outright abuse of its people and efforts to censor the internet.
in communist China when you Google freedom you go to re education camp.
Some keep saying:
"China should look at their own track record before criticizing the US on freedom an human rights"
and others keep saying:
"The US should look at their own track record before criticizing the China on freedom an human rights",
IMHO it's good any time *either* country points out abuses in the other and they should each aggressively push each other to improve.
is it really the pot calling the kettle black when said pot is accusing said kettle of hypocrisy and might have a point?
One country criminalizes speech. The other country criminalizes theft. Forgive me if I see enough of a difference as to not only rule out hypocrisy, but make China's argument look ridiculous.
Yes in that if the US can't (and won't) live up to the standards it claims to set, then other governments are entitled to ask if those standards are achievable or even desirable.
No in that if the front-runner drops out of the race, you still won't win by joining them.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The US has become a police state with significantly less "freedom" than most European countries and most Americans are too stupid or ambivalent to either know nor care. I could never understand why so many become irate when they perceive that their 2nd amendment rights are being infringed, yet those same people couldn't care less about what happens to their 1st and 4th amendment rights.
more exterminations are planned. freedumb is, as always, the ruling class chosen ones positions
So you're saying the Chinese are accusing the U.S. government of preaching one thing and doing another? That's ... inconceivable!!
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
Well now, when you use Google, you go to re-education camp. There is no google.cn (Mainland), it redirects to google.com.hk (Honk Kong).
It's POLITICIANS, both Chinese and American.
What do you expect from a bunch of scum sucking pig-dogs ?
The US heralds itself as an example of what the rest of the world should strive for and, in theory, this may be true. The US has failed however to ensure that it's actually striving for the same goals whilst preaching to everyone else.
It's about time that they were called out on this.
During the Cold War, the Soviet Union pointed to the civil rights issues, the freedom rides, the riots, excess of authority to argue that the US had no place in criticizing the Soviet Union for invading Hungary, Czechoslovakia or pushing the crack down on Poland.
Because racial tensions are equal to invading other countries.
China is just pointing at the US to justify it's own censorship.
To the references Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/11/china-us-human-rights-double-standards/print
To the Chinese report: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/us/2011-04/11/content_12303177.htm
... and it's only the kettle that claims to be another color.
There's no "might" about it. They do have a point and they are correct to point it out.
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
These are completely different issues. China may try to conflate the two issues, but they're wrong.
China actively censors people who express dissent. They are concerned with ideas Want to speak your mind? Want to promote a religion like Falun Gong? They might have a problem with that. In the US, you can speak your mind on just about anything without fear of the government coming to get you. The one big exception in the US would be obscenity. If you want to write a manual on having a sexual relationship with a child, you might end up in trouble. But China isn't talking about that.
The Wikileaks situation is different. The US is trying to keep specific classified documents under wraps. If a journalist figured out this stuff on their own, the US government wouldn't be going after them. The US government isn't going after ideas or even facts. They're concerned about specific documents that weren't supposed to be leaked.
And yes, I think the US government's reaction to wikileaks has been bullshit. But let's not conflate that with restrictions on freedom of expression.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Many Americans will not pay attention to issues until they are directly affected, or "I have nothing to hide" until it directly affects them.
They forget their history.
First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Fight Spammers!
The entire report, "Full Text of Human Rights Record of the United States in 2010", is worth reading. Most of the items on the list are well known, and have even come up on Slashdot.
These are problems the US has that aren't being fixed.
Some would say they are the same thing, but I think that is a bit of stretch. We all say crap about our families behind their backs, that isn't censorship.
China is blocking the names of the kids that died in the earthquake and then jailing those who put them out. That is a huge difference then not releasing private conversations concerning foreign relations.
I can still access wikileaks anytime I want to. Can the Chinese say that about the majority of the western based web that they block?
In either country, the people are peasants. And in both cases, we can't control our masters with the ballot box.
Have gnu, will travel.
Yes, and less every day....
You have missed the point completely, like a typical American politician. Before you spout off, learn what the word hypocrite means: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
The point: China doesn't act like they don't filter. China has quite clearly stated that they believe that press should be limited. China has quite clearly stated that the group has more importance than the individual. China has quite clearly stated that they want to do what's best for their economy only.
The problem is the U.S. THEY say they are for freedom of the people, and install dictators in countries. THEY say the are for freedom of the press, and limit war reporting, harass reporters, and go after people who expose government abuses. THEY are for capitalism, and then bail out the companies that should have been allowed to fail.
Bel, the mostly sane.. "Of course I can't see anything! I'm standing on the shoulders of idiots." -- Me
scale
context
some of the mental concepts you will find missing from those in the west who draw a false equivalency between the usa's crimes concerning internet freedom and the chinese
but most importantly, you will find them, freely and openly criticising their government, without fear of reprisal. unlike in china
so if listening to mentally subpar cranks on the internet equate china and the usa in illogical ways, i accept that as a price to pay for freedom of political expression
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
China be trollin' hard. This is obviously a vain attempt to pressure the US government into releasing all of its military secrets so China can has them.
US politicians have a rather nasty habit. (No, not chasing people around in cloak rooms or playing footsie in bathroom stalls, but they seem into that too)
Namely, they like to straddle the fence, and are very bad at doing so.
Take for instance, the media spectacle of the Egypt and subsequent middle-eastern revolts. The talking heads on capital hill squirmed and looked at each other for DAYS before finally resolving on an official position---AFTER the brave people in Egypt forced their hands. You see, they had been caught with their knickers down. On one side, you had "Heroic efforts to bring real democracy and freedom by the populace"-- which is the anodyne that they spew here in the states (Even though the body politic has rendered most of these so called freedoms that we are supposed to enjoy inert, or highly restricted with red tape and restriction) and on the other, there was Hosni Mubarak-- "Our Man" who "Helped us" with some rather "Nasty Renditions"--and more importantly, the diplomatic bargaining power he brought to the table in middle eastern affairs. (Namely, their dirty underhanded dealings) Having to pick a side and stick with it seems to have ruffled more than just a few feathers up there in washington--- the concept of lasting consequences and of having the onus of that kind of choice on them makes them squirm like worms under the light of a Fresnel lens. Back-troll through the media coverage prior to the deposal of Mubarak, with emphasis on the position from capital hill--- and you will find lots and lots of deflectionary statements.
Same kind of thing with this "Pot calling kettle black" issue with China, and censorship. The US government, like *ALL* Governments, is addicted to power; namely, the power to control its citizens-- (But the US is more aggressive, in that it likes to control OTHER nation's citizens as well. Extra-ordinary rendition, et. al.) As such, it innately LIKES the idea of a serious crackdown on free information exchange. You can go just about anyplace in government where there is "Enforcement" of any sort, be it military to as mundane as city police departments, and you will find a highly prevalent bias toward wanting to control or at least obsessively monitor/record pretty much every kind of correspondence. Constitutionally protected rights to personal papers and effects be damned.
Take for instance, the rather nasty provisions in the US patriot act, which has come up for review TWICE now, and somehow (rolls eyes) keeps getting new lease on life-- specifically, the data retention policies it enforces on public internet providers. (like internet cafes and libraries) Handing over lending histories was only ONE of the provisions; Another that was discretely added was the requirement to provide, on demand, complete packet logs of persons of interest, without oversight. If Government Man wants, it, Government Man gets it, basically.
No wonder then, that libraries and such were up in arms over it.
Essentially, the US wants to maintain the *illusion* that there is freedom and privacy in people's day to day correspondences, while secretly spying on, sanitizing, and orchestrating "enforcements" on "undesirable" communications. Wikileaks being just one high profile example. Philosophically, how is this any better than China's approach? If anything, the US approach to censorship is more obscene and insideous, because it promotes false senses of security in the citizens impacted--- China at least doesnt deny that it uses strongarm tactics; the US on the other hand, does gymnastics to validate why it purpetually authorizes warrantless searches, siezures, and interrogations at places like airports.
Basically, the US is JUST like China, just in a velvet glove instead of a cold steel one.
And the appropriate response to the Soviet Union would be "You're right, we have civil rights issues. Racism is terrible, and we'll try to fix these issues." And to our credit, we have come a long way. In addition, we should respond "Hey guys, quit invading other countries!" (never mind the fact that the US continues to invade countries to this day...)
In this case, again, we should take a good look at the criticisms and not ignore them because of the messenger. Maybe we are doing a bad job of preserving internet freedoms, and should work to fix them. Maybe China is also doing a bad job.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
and I expect they'll quash this story quickly, removing all traces and fill the holes with ads for facebook.
China bans facebook and other sites for a reason - America cannot be trusted with peoples personal information. The big debacle by Google wifi sniffing is a case in point. Nothing compares to America's outright abuse of it's people, especially as they had all the money and power to treat their people with respect but instead chose to view them as fattenable pigs. In almost every way I find China to be more respectful of human rights than America. But Wall st. is vested in big Chinese banks so that could change too ...
Yes, the U.S. is not perfect and I would like to see improvements. But neither is it remotely comparable to the Chinese government's ongoing campaigns of repression and censorship.
Let's just start with voting rights (i.e., self-determination): In the U.S., some groups' ballot box power is reduced by gerrymandering and polling place restrictions (IDs, etc.). In comparison, in China there is no ballot box.
The list of similarly absurd comparisons is long. I look forward to the day when the people of China control their own fate.
I mean let's not give the US a free pass, they are not perfect. However it is not even the same kind of shit China is pulling. Just because the US should be better does not mean they can't point out people who are much, much, worse.
The US has some problems balancing the right to free speech against other needs (you find that rights can almost never be unlimited, as it'll lead to trampling on the rights of others) and some problems with corporations using their influence with government to their own ends. China outright blocks and modified things they don't like, and will lock up or kill people for dissent.
The US isn't perfect, and only an idiot would say it is but it is way, WAY better than China in the freedom department.
Liberal always side with dictators. Retards.
So Imams calling for deaths of infidels is A-OK because they've only killed some of the people they rail against.
Right.
Tell me something new.
Both countries should amend their transgressions or GTFO. I couldn't care less for what one country "yo momma"'ing the other.
are you fucking kidding us ? tell that to the people whose accounts are subpoenaed and are going to be revealed to u.s. government soon. just for knowing people in wikileaks. only and only.
Read radical news here
Let's look at the commensurate Chinese data...I'm sure it must be here...umm....hmm. I'll go look under the couch. BRB.
You had better do as I say, not as I do!
Yours truly,
America
They'd probably be better off picking on Germany, where the government is once again trying to enact censorship laws which would allow them to block access to specified sites.
Last time around they used the excuse of wanting this measure it to block access to child pornography content and this time they're hiding behind anti-terrorism doublespeak.
"Some people's cows can moo, but yours should keep quiet."
"the pot calling the kettle black" back.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
If WikiLeaks had happened in China the Families of Manning and Assange would have already received the bill for the bullet. Just say'n.
Throwing shit at each other in a cage called world.
And the shit, that's us.
The US is far from innocent when it comes to Internet freedom, but nobody should suggest that the US is in the same league as China on this issue.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Indeed, the incarceration rate is a key indicator (if not THE key indicator) of a government's overall respect for human rights in practice (not in theory which is a useless bullshit measurement).
The fact that the US government incarcerates more individuals per population than any other country in the world speaks volumes about the reality of the situation, as does the fact that the vast majority of prisoners are non-violent and were emprisoned not for crimes against other human beings, but merely crimes against the state.
That's because China kills far more prisoners than the US does.
Most Americans are only dimly -- if at all -- aware of the fact that parties other than Republican and Democratic even exist. The problem with assigning the blame for this entirely to the populace, though, is that it's partially existing policies and practices that perpetuate the two-party system. Rules regarding campaign finance, ballot placement, debate eligibility, "equal airtime" availability, and so on pose a significant -- if not insurmountable -- barrier to entry for any aspiring third party. The PR wings and media connections of the entrenched parties provide them with ample opportunity to shout down and shut out the newcomers and perpetuate the "us vs. them" mentality. The "winner takes all" voting system means there's scarcely a way for a third party even to get a toehold from which to expand.
Many of today's voters had no hand - even indirectly - in electing the representatives that established these obstacles. Sadly, many of them are also easily swayed by polarizing polemic and emotional appeals. But I would posit that those who are ignorant of the existence of alternatives are at least as much victims of the two-party system as they are responsible for it.
I think it's great when people call us out on not living up to our standards, because it helps to keep us honest (or at least less dishonest). Unfortunately, those prone to using phrases such as "blame America first" do not agree with me. They feel America should only be criticized when a Democrat is in the White House.
Parallel evolution?
I have high health standards. If a wino comes up to me and points out that I would be healthier if I lose 5 more lbs. of fat and add 10 lbs of muscle, and points out that my diet is not great, he's right, even if he's a fat slob without a job. Similarly, even if China is killing people for speaking out in a way that we abhor, their point about our reduction in freedom is absolutely accurate.
Currently hooked on AMP
And now we're the ones invading other countries, and they're the ones with the local crackdowns...
I see a huge difference in the criticisms given to both China and the US.
Clinton criticized China for detaining its own artists and dissidents.
China is criticizing the US for civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, for mistreating prisoners of war, and for targeting Wikileaks.
It's pretty plain that China is being accused of mistreating its own people, while the US is being accused of mistreating everybody else. Yes, there were some comments about poverty and the US prison system, but the bulk of criticisms of the US concerned how we treat non-US-citizens. The US government allows its own citizens to have expansive human rights. We just don't afford those rights to foreigners.
Now, there is a lot of hypocrisy there -- we should treat non-citizens with as much respect as our citizenry. But there's no real comparison to China. A country who treats its own citizens better than everyone else is much, much better than a country who mistreats everyone equally. Given the choice between a hypocrite and someone who's outright evil, I'll choose the hypocrite every time.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Because racial tensions are equal to invading other countries.
of course they aren't. and some have both.
And the Chinese might have a point.
No, they do have a point. Even if they are even worse, even if you don't like them. The serial-killer child-rapist cleptomanic is still right when he points out the guy who ran the red light. It may be any number of things, but it doesn't change the simple fact that the truth remains the truth no matter who reports it.
And sometimes, it needs an unpopular perceived enemy to speak out what all your friends don't dare to say out loud and clear.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/obsessed-with-jacob/Content?oid=7560624
(And old buddy sent this to me to post around:)
FORENSIC ECONOMICS 101
Private equity firms/leveraged buyout firms manage and oversee the bulk of the largest pension funds (superannuation funds) out there, including most union funds. They leverage these funds to destroy unions and future union employment, while structuring them with credit derivatives which profit themselves but end up destroying those funds.
With the destruction of those funds, which must either be bailed out or allowed to default, comes the further destruction of local governments as they are usually heavily invested (through their bond issues) in those pension funds. Thus allowing the super-rich to go in and pick up new assets at bargain basement values.
This would be considered the optimal asset stripping.
U.S. foreign aid (US taxpayer assisted) is well known to be directed to countries which will then purchase weapons systems from defense contractors, but what is less known is what the greater slice of that foreign aid goes to.
The bulk of it is managed and manipulated by American-based multinationals to build foreign factories, production facilities, R&D labs, worker training, etc., to which the multinationals then offshore American jobs to, and create new jobs at. Extreme examples of this were the two “free trade agreements” supported and passed during the Bush administration, lobbied on behalf of by former president, Bill Clinton (in the pay of the jobs offshoring industry), involving Jordan and Oman.
Foreign aid established factories in those two countries, which then imported the cheapest labor they could from Bangladesh and the Philippines, chiefly benefitting the American-based multinationals who exported those jobs to the factories, and the small number of wealthy and connected managers and owners in Jordan and Oman who managed those factories.
The co-opting of the conservation lobby (Nature Conservancy, League of Conservation Voters, Sierra Club, etc.) and the environmental lobby (those entities duped into supporting cap-and-trade) by Wall Street (corporate and individual land monopolists and oil/energy corporations).
For example, when a volunteer group works to set aside a tract of land for conservation purposes, etc., and they don’t continuously track the final result, they are unaware that some, or all, of the tract is eventually sold for pennies on the dollar to foreign corporations, either in a quid pro quo deal, or which is owned through circuitously laddered holding companies by an American-based multinational.
Also, various conservation groups will lobby on behalf of tax cuts and benefits for set aside lands, unaware they are working – for free – on behalf of those super-rich land monopolists.
The controlled, compromised and highly manipulated tax code which chiefly exists to benefit the one percent, the speculator class.
A traditionally popular example of this is the “Louis B. Mayer clause” dating back to 1954, where Mayer’s tax attorneys bribed the usual congressmen to insert a special clause in the tax section to allow Mayer to avoid paying taxes on his fortune when he retired. This clause specified that only the special pre-existing tax situation (i.e., exactly targeting only Mayer’s situation) existing prior to the date of that clause was allowed – the complete antithesis of all legal foundation, i.e., a law is normally passed to be in effect which affects everyone after the passage of said law!
A recent example is the “Blackstone Group clause” – essentially the Blackstone Group bought some congress critters to allow them to continue paying the same capital gains tax rate after they went public, when by law they should
Add a teaspoon of internet abuse to a barrel of freedom and you get internet abuse. Add a teaspoon of freedom to a barrel of internet abuse and you get internet abuse.
It's all or nothing, people.
Mind you that China does not mistreat everyone equally. Chinese committing a crime against foreigners on Chinese soil are punished more severely than Chinese committing crimes against Chinese. Also, China frequently deports and temporarily bans foreigners who commit a crime instead of jailing them as they would Chinese. (Not that this is any better than equal mistreatment.)
All the new-age hippies here are claiming that their free-speech is just an illusion are delusional. The very existence of internet sites like this prove my point. Go to China and try to post half of what is posted here and you will find yourself in a cell quickly. Go ahead and claim that Wiki-Leaks exposed some US government conspiracy, but in truth, they just dumped anything they had with Top Secret on it to the public. Your free speech remains so based on the many things you DON'T know, because what you know, the enemy does too!
when i am making an example of the stereotypical false equivalency moron, it helps not to reply to the comment as exactly that sort of moron, in exactly the way i describe
i guess my entire post was a WHOOOSH right over your head, eh?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I don't see how the US cracking down on a website that allows top secret and sensitive documents be seen freely by anyone, to be censorship. The people who gave up the info were commiting espionage and treason......thats far different from a government controlling it's countrymen's internet access.
Thank you to most for your input. What a treasure trove of thought provoking commentary on topics that need to be more openly discussed, more often, in more forums and private assemblies. There's something here for everyone to read, digest and, hopefully, assimilate. IMHO of course.
May the lies we live by make us strong, healthy, happy and wise - Kurt Vonnegut.
They are experts at violating freedoms, internet and others.
>^_^<
My guess is that this would be partly explained by the Chinese love for capital punishment. It's easy to have a low prison population if you just kill lawbreakers.
It's the same as a republican calling out a democrat for not caring about the people.
the "free" west (especially US, but also their "partners") have given China a free reign here... As many have said through out this case (myself included) pursuing WikiLeaks in the way that have happened have simply legitimized China, Russia and any 3rd. world dictator that uses the same means to shut down critics of their reign.
And it is not so strange that this is starting to happen now... If China had moved earlier, the US could have backed down, now they are in it so bad that whatever they do, they are fried.
As others have said before me, we are probably witnessing the end of the US as a global power, perhaps even as a nation. It took the Roman empire almost 600 years to get to this stage, and then another 400 years to collapse completely.
Wikileaks HAS happened in China. Go have a look for yourself (Oh, no, that might make you uncomfortable). Guess what? No bullets.
Maybe China have a problem buying them?
the pentagon has been in electronic eavesdropping since arpanet .....echelon ..... carnivor .... anyone ? a 98% intercept rate of WORLD electronic communications ..... no need for a great firewall
IMHO it's good any time *either* country points out abuses in the other and they should each aggressively push each other to improve.
China's point is not that there are abuses in the USA per se.
China's criticism is that, they openly apply their own law to the letter (no matter how many people thing that these law are wrong), whereas the ideology of the USA is not consistant with its deeds.
It not a question of who does what, but a question of who pretends to do what.
In short :
China: we're abusive bastards. it's for the great good of motherland. it protects the state and the economy. (and do pretty much what they say : they are abusive)
USA: we're not abusive, we're pro-freedoms (then go doing some abusive stuff for the great good of motherland, under the pretense that it protects the people against "evil pedo-terrorist pirates").
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]