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Marking 125 Years Since the Great Gauge Change

Arnold Reinhold writes "This month ends with the 125th anniversary of one of the most remarkable achievements in technology history. Over two days beginning Monday, May 31, 1886, the railroad network in the southern United States was converted from a five-foot gauge to one compatible with the slightly narrower gauge used in the US North, now know as standard gauge. The shift was meticulously planned and executed. It required one side of every track to be moved three inches closer to the other. All wheel sets had to be adjusted as well. Some minor track and rolling stock was sensibly deferred until later, but by Wednesday the South's 11,500 mile rail network was back in business and able to exchange rail cars with the North. Other countries are still struggling with incompatible rail gauges. Australia still has three. Most of Europe runs on standard gauge, but Russia uses essentially the same five foot gauge as the old South and Spain and Portugal use an even broader gauge. India has a multi-year Project Unigauge, aimed at converting its narrow gauge lines to the subcontinent's five foot six inch standard."

426 comments

  1. And still shortsighted by x*yy*x · · Score: 0

    It needs to be done once again when larger areas want to connect. And then continents. And again until we actually get the whole world to use the same. And by that time trains are obsolete already.

    1. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how do you pronounce gauge?

    2. Re:And still shortsighted by isopropanol · · Score: 1

      There's not much rail traffic between the americas and Russia, nor will there be in the forseable future... For cargo we have intermodal containers, which are compatible with almost any guage.

    3. Re:And still shortsighted by vlm · · Score: 2

      It needs to be done once again when larger areas want to connect. And then continents.

      Europe - Asia no problemo

      N.A. - Australia this is getting difficult

      S.A. - Antarctica now that's ridiculous.

      Arguably with intermodal all that really matters is container size, since you'll be switching transport providers every couple thousand miles anyway.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Of course, there will always be rouge nations using odd guages.

    5. Re:And still shortsighted by NFN_NLN · · Score: 1

      It needs to be done once again when larger areas want to connect. And then continents. And again until we actually get the whole world to use the same. And by that time trains are obsolete already.

      When it comes to trains the US is "all aboard" the standards express, but when it comes to the metric system, nada.

    6. Re:And still shortsighted by furbearntrout · · Score: 1

      With a long A and a hard G.

      --
      Crap. What did the new CSS do with the "Post anonymously" option??
    7. Re:And still shortsighted by Finallyjoined!!! · · Score: 1

      We pretty much are, 4' 8 1/2" is standard in most of the world.

      --
      If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
    8. Re:And still shortsighted by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Funny

      Of course, there will always be rouge (sic) nations using odd guages (sic).

      Rouge nations? Would that be the Kingdom of Maybelline, the Covergirl Islands, or the Republique de l'Oreal?

      And what's a "guage"? It sounds french. Do you pronounce it "goo-aj", "g-ow-gh", or "joo-a-jee"?

    9. Re:And still shortsighted by frisket · · Score: 2

      Ireland, however, uses 5' 3". Fortunately we are an island, with no rail intercommunication with anywhere else :-)

    10. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, how do you pronounce 'savages'?

      http://www.borderlandbeat.com/

    11. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not between russia and the america's, but there is the potential for future growth of rail traffic between continental europe and russia.

      And of course there isn't much rail traffic currently between europe and russia, the rail stock uses different gauges.

    12. Re:And still shortsighted by Ossifer · · Score: 1

      Don't yuo hate when poeple invert thier diphthongs?

    13. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh!

    14. Re:And still shortsighted by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      Obviously, your education was lacking in firearms training and the study of railroads. You should have put a couple years in the Navy. You would have learned that a riot gun is actually a 12 guage shotgun, and that a 5 inch 54 caliber gun's chamber is 54 inches long, and 5 inches diameter where it necks down into the barrel.

      First "g" is hard, the "au" is a long "a" second "g" is soft. End it right there - the "e" is silent. I guess you could sound it out if I were to spell it G-A-J-E.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    15. Re:And still shortsighted by kabloom · · Score: 1

      It could still aid rail car manufacturing, which is an international industry with orders for trains in one country from companies in a different country.

    16. Re:And still shortsighted by plover · · Score: 5, Funny

      And, how do you pronounce 'savages'?

      WINN-dohs YUZ-ers

      --
      John
    17. Re:And still shortsighted by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Obviously, your education was lacking in firearms training and the study of railroads. You should have put a couple years in the Navy. You would have learned that a riot gun is actually a 12 guage (sic) shotgun, and that a 5 inch 54 caliber gun's chamber is 54 inches long, and 5 inches diameter where it necks down into the barrel.

      And perhaps you should have paid attention in your English classes. It's "gauge", not "guage". There's no such word as "guage" in the English language.

      ... which was also why I made fun of how you would pronounce the fictitious word.

    18. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh.

    19. Re:And still shortsighted by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      LOL - alright, I knew that, but you win because I wasn't paying attention!

      You've seen those tests, where they type sentences, paragraphs, even pages of stuff with a lot of letters missing or transposed. People read right through them, because they "fix" it in their own minds. Guage or gauge, I read it the same.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    20. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On that train all graphite and glitter
      Undersea by rail
      Ninety minutes from New York to Paris
      Well by seventy-six we'll be A.O.K.

    21. Re:And still shortsighted by Tim+the+Gecko · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was surprised to find that this was standardized in the same Act of Parliament that mandated 4' 8 1/2" in Britain - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Regulation_(Gauge)_Act_1846

    22. Re:And still shortsighted by fotbr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be pedantic, when referring to artillery, and specifically naval artillery, a 5"/54 caliber gun would have a barrel length of 270 inches; as the 54 refers to the number of diameters that the barrel is long, not the chamber length.

    23. Re:And still shortsighted by Flyerman · · Score: 2

      I think we're forgetting about how the trains into Australia will need to be scanned for any small breasted women who could be seen by pedophiles.

    24. Re:And still shortsighted by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When it comes to trains the US

      I always thought the best gauge for trains was the standard N-gauge. I still have my Rock Island Golden Rocket in a box down in the basement. My gramps was an engineer for the Rock Island and I rode it from Chicago to the West Coast several times as a kid. What a magnificent train that was. It had a 12-bedroom sleeper car called La Palma and it was like taking a room at the Four Seasons from Union Station to Los Angeles. You'd fall asleep crossing the Mississippi at St Louis, lulled by the gentle motion and wake up in the Rockies.

      The coffee in the dining car ("El Comedor") was a special blend. It was served in those silver pots with heavy, short beige and red china that said "Golden Rocket". Delicious roasted potatoes and pork chops. Man, that was one sexy way to travel. Screw Southwest Airlines. If there were still decent passenger trains in the US, I'd never sit in another cramped 737 with a smelly fat-ass on either side of me eating cardboard extruded cookies.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    25. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last thing I would want to do as an Australian is visit the US again. wet dream no-nightmare yes

    26. Re:And still shortsighted by Sique · · Score: 4, Informative

      And of course there isn't much rail traffic currently between europe and russia, the rail stock uses different gauges.

      Not exactly. In fact the rolling stock exchanges the wheels at the borders. The whole waggon gets liftet from the bogies, the bogies are rolled away, new bogies of the right gauge are rolled in, and the waggon gets eased down on the new bogies.

      The TALGO train which is used between Spain and France has adjustable wheels to adapt to the different gauges.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    27. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notice you said "again"...because you wanted everyone to know that you have visited the USA...

    28. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean LUZERS, AMIRITE

      No. Living in the Stone Age does not make you a loser.

      But seriously, please die in a fire.

      Sigh. Yeah, that's how I feel when I'm forced to use Windows.

    29. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Rock Island Line is a mighty good road :)

    30. Re:And still shortsighted by Twisted64 · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, some Australians DO want to emigrate to the U.S. And we're OK with letting that type of person go.

      --
      Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
    31. Re:And still shortsighted by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Between Vancouver Island and the mainland trains use ferries ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry ) which I guess Ireland misses out on with incompatible lines.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    32. Re:And still shortsighted by compro01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And by that time trains are obsolete already.

      I really rather doubt trains are ever going to be obsolete, barring us figuring out cheap teleportation. There's simply no better method of moving stuff en masse across land.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    33. Re:And still shortsighted by Cimexus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ooo can I reply to the troll?

      Yep. I sure want to leave Australia and move back to the US. I'm getting so sick of the higher salaries, greater number of holidays, mandated 4-6 weeks of annual leave, the more casual work-to-live culture, cleaner environment, low crime rate, higher life expectancy, affordable healthcare, booming economy, 1-5% unemployment (depending on State), good food, having decent quality TV news and current affairs (ABC/SBS), stronger consumer protection laws, massively lower poverty rate, having more choice in phone and internet services, not getting nudie-scanned or groped at airports, oh the list goes on. I'm just itching to get out of here!

      Ok so that's a bit tongue-in-cheek - I'm a dual American and Australian citizen and still spend a lot of time in both countries. No emi/immigration required for me. And there's still stuff that the US has Australia beat at. The highway system there is better than in Australia (which suffers from having a huge area but not a huge population/tax base to fund things from). The cost of living (particularly housing) is less too (though, wages are lower which offsets some of that advantage). The natural environment is also more diverse (don't get me wrong - Australia is beautiful, but it simply doesn't have the diversity of environments and climates that the US/North America does).

      But at this point in time I don't think you'd find to many Australians wanting to emigrate to the US. Perhaps the very wealthy, who would like to take advantage of the lower income tax for high earners. But Australia has been incredibly prosperous for the last decade or two - the middle class along with the rich. The financial crisis didn't even scratch it. Not surprisingly, it consistently ranks as one of the top handful of places to be (both in 'economic' and 'quality of life' indices).

      Having said that, there is a HUGE number of Australian tourists in the US in the last year or so. This is because it's now incredibly cheap to do so: the AUD is worth more than the USD for the first time in history (thanks to the US Fed printing USD like it's going out of style). The buying power of the AUD in the US is huge at the moment. Combined with generally higher Aussie wages and the already-low prices of goods in the US, it's a shopping bonanza. I have guys at work ask me to get clothes and running shoes and stuff for them when I visit the US because due to the currency movements it's literally less than half the cost. Hell, for big ticket items, it'd be cheaper to fly to the US, buy it, and fly back, than to buy it locally...

    34. Re:And still shortsighted by Cimexus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most Australians travel internationally quite regularly. Not just to the US. Not every country is like the US where only a tiny proportion of people have a passport.

    35. Re:And still shortsighted by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Did you just call me a savage? I'LL KILL YOU!

    36. Re:And still shortsighted by moronoxyd · · Score: 1

      N.A. - Australia this is getting difficult

      S.A. - Antarctica now that's ridiculous.

      I'd go for N.A. - S.A. and S.A. - Australia.
      Shorter bridges, so less expensive.

      Or we go N.A. - S.A., S.A. - Antarctica, Antarctica - Australia (via Tasmania).
      Who doesn't want to spend 2 months on a train to see the penguins in their natural habitat? ;)

    37. Re:And still shortsighted by FhnuZoag · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, arguably having an incompatible railway network won World War II on the Eastern Front, so, I'm not counting on the Russians changing their system just yet. ;-)

    38. Re:And still shortsighted by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      No one will invest in a Bering Straight tunnel with that attitude.

    39. Re:And still shortsighted by i_ate_god · · Score: 1

      I think Queensland wants to become the next US state only.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    40. Re:And still shortsighted by somersault · · Score: 2

      depends how overweight they are

      --
      which is totally what she said
    41. Re:And still shortsighted by DrXym · · Score: 1
      For train travel between the UK & Ireland people can go from Rosslare to Fishguard / Holyhead. There are train stations next to the ferry terminals on either side so it's usually a matter of getting off the boat, walking several hundred yards onto the waiting train. I'm sure they could transport the entire train, but it's probably not worth it, gauge or not, to stick an entire train on a boat when they could be using the same space to haul 5 or 6 lorries.

      Other routes don't have rail connections but usually you can travel by coach, e.g. Eurolines. You probably get turfed off the coach on one side and there is another waiting on the other side.

    42. Re:And still shortsighted by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      I was at BEA World in San Diego years ago, and one of the presenters for a JMX topic was extolling the virtues of "Gwadge Beans". It took me a while to realize he'd learned 'Gauge' as 'Guage'.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    43. Re:And still shortsighted by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean woohs?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    44. Re:And still shortsighted by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      an even-keeled response

    45. Re:And still shortsighted by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Don't yuo hate when poeple invert thier diphthongs?

      Is that 'code'?

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    46. Re:And still shortsighted by S.O.B. · · Score: 1

      Yeah, every time I go to the beach people laugh at my inverted diphthong.

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    47. Re:And still shortsighted by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 1

      Not really, the logistics of carrying a train across a ferry, is far more higher than just going by train to departure port, taking ferry, then catching another train at the destination.

      --
      Have a nice day!
    48. Re:And still shortsighted by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      There's not much rail traffic between the americas and Russia, nor will there be in the forseable future...

      Heh, apparently Slashdot users pay as little attention to past articles as the editors do.
      http://news.slashdot.org/story/07/04/18/2240257/The-Worlds-Longest-Tunnel

      Ah, the dreams we used to have, back when we thought we had had money :-P

    49. Re:And still shortsighted by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's right. Until the whole world is on one gauge. It is vital that North American trains can cross over into Australian track and European trains can cross over onto South American track. Just be sure to mind the clearances when on the lower line where the Great Atlantic Trestles cross.

    50. Re:And still shortsighted by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I don't see it as much more than an inconvenience. After all, car companies seem able to cope with different emission standards, lighting regulations, steering wheels being on different sides and the like.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    51. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For some reason, gwadge sounds like a euphemism for female naughty bits.

    52. Re:And still shortsighted by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking of freight, not passengers as Canada is like the States with crappy expensive train travel. For passengers and automobiles there is an extensive car ferry system.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    53. Re:And still shortsighted by squidguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah but there's a shitload of traffic between Europe and Russia, and having to regauge at the transition point is a pain in the ass. Costs money and time.

    54. Re:And still shortsighted by bungo · · Score: 1

      "the AUD is worth more than the USD for the first time in history"

      Oh my. I feel old. I predate history!

      I believe back in the early 80's, when I was in high school, that the AUD was more than the USD. It dropped way below overnight when the Oz government devalued the AUD.
      My economics teacher even predicted the devaluation and I believe made some money on currency speculation.

      --
      "The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
    55. Re:And still shortsighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ho, Ho, Ho....
      That is the way to go, Ho Ho Ho...
      something about Santa is lost
      in the mists of time.

      The the rock Island Line IS mighty good ...

    56. Re:And still shortsighted by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Sorry - should have said "first time since the dollar was floated", not "in history". The AUD has historically been higher than the USD before, but only because its value was artificially pegged to the USD. Once it become a freely traded currency, as you alluded to, its value plummeted overnight :)

    57. Re:And still shortsighted by vlm · · Score: 1

      Not every country is like the US where only a tiny proportion of people have a passport.

      Very tired old urban legend. Its closer to 1/3. If you play games with "lifetime ownership" vs current and up to date the number is much higher. Mine has expired, and I don't want a RFID tracking device, and I don't want to be molested by the TSA agents who apparently got their soft skills training by watching movie portrayals of SS agents, and I don't have the vacation time available to travel anyway. I'm healthy and have a stack of money.

      The other 2/3 probably don't even have the basics like decent housing, decent food, decent health insurance, so expecting them to travel the world is kind of irrational. Maybe they should, you know, buy food to eat, or medical care, first.

      Also USA people have approximately zero vacation time compared to anywhere else in the civilized world, I literally don't have time to go to Europe even though I could quite easily afford it (and when I was younger, I somehow did, and had a blast, even if it was only a "long weekend"). I don't have much vacation time, and most of it gets used one day at a time on family events, etc. I haven't had more than seven consecutive days away from work since... fall of '91?

      The odds are in the USA you'll either have the money to travel, or the time to travel, or the health to travel, but rarely all three simultaneously.

      The other aspect is, in Europe, at least before the EU, it was hard to travel 100 miles in any direction without needing a passport and maybe a visa. In the US 100 miles is just a boring weekend drive. At one point in the past, US citizens only needed a drivers license to visit Canada and Mexico (maybe still true?) so for at least some of us, we would need to travel many thousands of miles to reach a country to use a our passports... /. automotive analogy is pretty much anywhere other than the US or USSR, you need a passport if you drive your car more than one hour, but in the USA you could possibly drive in one direction for the better part of a week before either hitting water or a customs station.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    58. Re:And still shortsighted by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Oh I understand the ~reasons~ behind the low rate of passport holders in the US. I have lived in the US myself for many years, and when I raised the question, the vacation time problem is the one most often mentioned to me. I do understand this - it simply isn't worth the cost of the airfare to go overseas for only a week or two. I definitely now appreciate having the >4 weeks annual leave that is mandated by law here in Australia. I usually take at least three of those weeks in one hit every year and travel overseas during that time. So do most of my friends and colleagues. I earn a pretty average middle class salary so this is by no means something that's unusual here.

      It's a real shame though - so many Americans are missing out on the wonderful experience of travel through no fault of their own. And it's sad that it's simply unaffordable for so many. Without meaning to troll, I admit I was genuinely shocked when I first became aware the sheer number of people in America living near or at the poverty line. I mean, every country has its share of low income earners for whom even housing, food and healthcare is a struggle to afford. But in Australia it is comparatively a very small proportion of the total population. In America it's much, much greater (statistics like 20-25% spring to mind, but don't quote me on it). I never really understood that until I lived in the US myself, having grown up knowing that per capita GDP was higher in the US and assuming that since America is such a rich country, most must live comfortably. What I didn't understand was the huge disparity in incomes - your GDP per capita may be slightly higher but it's skewed by the 1-2% of the population that's ultra-wealthy.

      Anyway I did a bit of Googling and the most recent official figures I could find was a passport ownership rate of around 25% for the US and a little over 50% for Australia. Once you eliminate children, that probably rises to around 1/3rd and 2/3rds respectively, which sounds about right to me from what I've seen in both countries. That discrepancy must be substantially due to the two things you mention: greater annual leave entitlements in Australia, and the flatter income distribution (Australia has less super-wealthy, but also very few living close to poverty - it's a comfortably middle class place). Geographically, Australia is actually more disadvantaged than the US when it come to travel - it's the same size as the lower 48, but much further from most foreign destinations except SE Asia. In the US you are lucky to be only 7 hours or so from Europe. Here it's a full 24 hour flight (and at least 15-18 hours to the US).

    59. Re:And still shortsighted by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Can trains ever truly go obsolete? Physics students, help me out on this.. Isn't their some kind of rule that concentrating power generation into fewer large engines is more efficient than many smaller ones? For example the big coal plants produce electricity more efficiently than a million little single home generators would. Semis are more efficient than a fleet of pickup trucks and a single train engine pulling a mile long chain of freight cars is more efficient than a fleet of semis. Sure, we may have advances which make the semis more efficient but the trains will benefit from the same technology.

      Also, don't even try to say any kind of aircraft will replace trains. Sure, it's great for getting items somewhere in a hurry but not only do you require energy to take the goods the distance but you need way more energy just to get it all into the air and keep it there.

      I think trains are here to stay. What we need are more tracks.. AND lot's of trestles, bridges and tunnels so that we keep trains and cars from crossing paths. We don't need more railroad crossings.

  2. Did they by Grindalf · · Score: 0

    Did they have to go on a training course? :0)

    --
    The purpose of existence is to make money.
  3. Part of a general pattern by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the second half of the 19th century the US took rail transit very seriously. The standardization of the gauge isn't the only example of this. The US also spent a large amount of effort building the transcontinental railroad. A major reason for the success of the United States in the 20th century was the massive investment in infrastructure in the end of the 19th. Unfortunately, the US hasn't done much in the way of large scale infrastructural improvement since the building of the highway system in the 1950s. Our electric grid is primitive and outdated and our fastest passenger trains like the Acela high speed rail on the East Coast are slower than regular trains in other places like Japan (the maximum speed of the Acela is less than the average speed for some of the Japanese trains). I'm deeply worried about what the next few years are going to be like.

    1. Re:Part of a general pattern by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Our electric grid is primitive and outdated and our fastest passenger trains like the Acela high speed rail on the East Coast are slower than regular trains in other places like Japan

      Both have the same core problems...

      First, private monopoly large scale providers result in the inevitable property taxes levied on the routes, after all why not make the "outsiders" pay property taxes until they bleed... The owners can/might survive depreciation and interest costs of improved routes, but they'll never survive the prop taxes on improved routes. Its kind of like adding an extra 5% to the published interest rate in perpetuity, and taxes always and only go up making an unlimited liability for the private owners.

      NIMBY is the second problem, for better or worse we operate sorta kinda partially under the rule of law, and we certainly have plenty of hungry lawyers out to stop all progress.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Part of a general pattern by DigiShaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know I'm stating the obvious for many readers. But that's because post WW2, oil was cheap, and driving equated to the ultimate form of personal freedom. So much freedom in fact that the suburbs were created in that time period too. Of course, cheap energy wont last forever. I can't predict what will happen in the future with regards to transportation, but I can predict that the current status quo will not last.

      The problem wasn't our desire for freedom and independence with how we lived our lives. The problem was the instruments of energy we chose to achieve that without a clear vision or plan in mind to maintain it.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cheap energy in the form of nuclear reactors is possible but the wusses in congress fold every time the greenies knock on their door.

    4. Re:Part of a general pattern by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      driving equated to the ultimate form of personal freedom

      Still does. Try getting anywhere that's not in New York City, San Diego, or Chicago without a car, and you'll be spending a lot of time waiting or being herded where others want you to go. And you'd better plan in advance, because the bus isn't stopping at that quaint roadside diner you just saw.

    5. Re:Part of a general pattern by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Cheap energy hasn't happened yet.

      As soon as solar and wind becomes cheap and efficient enough the natural gas and coal devoted to power production will be able to go toward syngas and Diesel production.

      While the US never had the rock oil reserves of Saudi Arabia, the US has alot of natural gas, coal and potential for both solar and wind.

      It'll either be cheap and ubiquitous solar/wind or fusion that brings on the age of cheap energy.

    6. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with the point you are making, I find it curious you mention San Diego but not DC, Boston or San Francisco. I lived in all four (in addition to NYC) and San Diego's public transportation, while extensive, isn't as responsive or convenient as the others. I tried to commute to work from downtown to Point Loma, and what would take 15 minutes by car would take 2 hours to go by trolley then bus.

    7. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The current reliance on cars gives many areas the perfect excuse not to implement decent public transportation, which is pretty much why the US has terrible public transportation. Visit Europe sometime and you may stop using that argument. Also, add Seattle to that list, because I don't drive a car.

      And please, anyone should be able to tell that if you're on a bus and you see a quant roadside diner that you want to stop at, you pull the cord and walk back from the next stop.

    8. Re:Part of a general pattern by mveloso · · Score: 1

      Well actually, the status quo will probably last until it gets better. The US is very, very good at coming up with technological solutions to its environmental problems. Have you read the article about the horseshit crisis of the 1890s-1910s?

    9. Re:Part of a general pattern by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Whatever it is, we need it ASAP! Countries like China and India are hungry for oil. And they have every right to compete for it in the market place too. But we better stop dicking around and look to upgrade our electrical grid as well. It's currently not within spec to handle the kind of energy oil generates. That is to say, if we're going electric for future transportation, we're going need additional lines to handle the load.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    10. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Diego, without a car? Are you serious?

      Better to add Portland, OR or Seattle, WA, which both have pretty decent public transportation.

      But, really, San Diego? (yes, I do or have lived in all but Nyc. Chicago suburbs and exburbs public transit is non existant, unless you're taking Metra to or from Chicago)

    11. Re:Part of a general pattern by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      i can't speak about the other cities, but I live in the D.C. area. If you and your destination are both near Metro stations then public transportation is convenient here. But if not, it really isn't. And it's not very cheap either.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    12. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Diego is a nightmare to get around in using public transport. I did it for two months or so as I had no car. Your point still stands though. The difference between San Diego and the subs is the difference between night and day. You can get around in San Diego with public transport. You just can't get around in most subs period without a vehicle. The little bit of public transit that exists in the subs is a joke. You are inevitably heavily reliant on vehicles. To get some place which might take 20-30 minutes by car would take you almost half the day by bus.

    13. Re:Part of a general pattern by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      I don't know what the solution was, but my best guess is "moving it all to the White House".

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    14. Re:Part of a general pattern by Pharmboy · · Score: 2

      As soon as solar and wind becomes cheap and efficient enough the natural gas and coal devoted to power production will be able to go toward syngas and Diesel production.

      I don't think so. It is a Catch 22. If we could magically jump to 50% renewable tomorrow, that would make the price of oil, coal and natural gas go DOWN. This would make biofuels of all kinds relatively more expensive, including syngas and biodiesel. Regular diesel would be cheaper, but the US taxes it heavily (to capture funds from trucking), which is one reason why there are so few diesel cars in the US. Money will NOT flow into these other technologies unless someone is convinced that they will pay off. Otherwise, few will invest in them, which is where we are today.

      Power generation will always be done by the cheapest method, period. The only way to change what is used for power is to change the cost, and the only tool to overcome the market is called "taxation".

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    15. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, cheap energy wont last forever.

      Sure it will. Once they start building nuclear reactors with passive safety features on a large scale, energy will become essentially free "forever" (where forever here means until the next 99% global extinction event).

    16. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could spend a lot of time waiting or being herded where other want you to go in those cities as well. I was just in Chicago last week. Public transportation from what is technically the "suburb" to the Field Museum wouldn't have been easy.

    17. Re:Part of a general pattern by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

      I would dare to say that the railway system of the USA is what gave them the supremacy position that they enjoy today. The fact that USA didn't had any damage in the mainland in both world wars wouldn't have yielded any advantage to americans without one of the best railways networks in the world at the time.

      --
      Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
    18. Re:Part of a general pattern by loshwomp · · Score: 2

      Try getting anywhere in America that's not in New York City, San Diego, or Chicago without a car, and you'll be spending a lot of time waiting or being herded where others want you to go.

      There. Fixed that for ya. :)

    19. Re:Part of a general pattern by Super+Dave+Osbourne · · Score: 1

      The current status quo can continue to grow, demand is ever higher every day. The source of freedom will be some other form of fuel, sun, electric, gas, hydrogen, whatever. However limited, the world will demand personal travel freedoms and markets resulting. Its just the way it will be, and the poor or unable to afford the costs will be in the bus watching others eating at the diner they just passed.

    20. Re:Part of a general pattern by quintesse · · Score: 1

      You "pull the cord"? Please tell me that was a figure of speech because otherwise your public transport is in worse shape than I thought! :)

    21. Re:Part of a general pattern by TheTyrannyOfForcedRe · · Score: 2

      The current reliance on cars gives many areas the perfect excuse not to implement decent public transportation, which is pretty much why the US has terrible public transportation.

      Cars may only be an excuse. I've lived in two different cities where opposition to public transit improvements came from people who wanted to keep their white upper middle class suburbs free of "others." In both cases the improvements would have allowed people living in poor (and mostly nonwhite) areas easy access to upper middle class enclaves. There's a reason people pay a lot of money to live in upscale areas. Aside from the nice landscaping and large homes the main motivation seems to be to get away from "those people."

      --
      "Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
    22. Re:Part of a general pattern by timeOday · · Score: 1
      The solution to the horseshit crisis was the automobile; their emissions are a lot less than a horse, on a per-mile basis. The positive view of this is we can innovate our way out of anything. The negative view is we might create even bigger long-term problems by doing so.

      I am closer to the positive view. If nothing else, we could adopt nuclear on a massive scale to make ample electricity and greatly reduce gasoline consumption without changing life all that much. Yes, it would be several trillion dollars, and driving might be somewhat more expensive for several decades. But I don't think we're at risk of sliding back out of the industrial revolution or anything like that.

    23. Re:Part of a general pattern by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Tell me about it. We've been working on that problem in Seattle for some time now, and we still haven't gotten it right. Part of it is that we consider buses to be primarily about environmentalism rather than a social service like they are in the cities you mention. And part of it is that we haven't gotten to the point where we're willing to bite the bullet and completely redo all our routes. Half of which all run through our downtown core. Making for trips that don't logically start or end near there take longer and added confusion about when to pay the fare.

      We're getting light rail which should help the situation out, but that's mostly being tunneled and not going to be complete for at least a decade at this point. Even then it's not going to be comprehensive.

    24. Re:Part of a general pattern by Christopher+Fritz · · Score: 2

      You "pull the cord"? Please tell me that was a figure of speech because otherwise your public transport is in worse shape than I thought! :)

      For US Americans such as myself who are used to either pulling a cord (horizontal cord that goes across the wall of the bus) or pressing a button (much less common from my experience) to signal a stop, what other methods are there? I'm genuinely curious. I did a quick Google search, but I don't seem to be able to come up with the right search terms to get a result that tells the methods of stopping a bus for various non-US bus systems.

    25. Re:Part of a general pattern by SuperQ · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're on the list for "most short sighted person in humanity". Just because something is an inconvenience for you doesn't mean that there is no benefit.

      It sounds like you're delivering stuff by trucks/cars. Guess what, there might be something more important out there than you.

      Trains deliver huge amounts of raw materials. Things like steel that are used to make trucks.

      Trains deliver huge amounts of energy, namely coal used to power nearly half of the electricity in the US.

      Try looking past your nose some time.

    26. Re:Part of a general pattern by SuperQ · · Score: 2

      Most of your quaint roadside diners were eliminated by the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways. People stop are herded along the interstate and only stop long enough for gas, mcdonalds, and starbucks.

    27. Re:Part of a general pattern by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      In the second half of the 19th century the US took rail transit very seriously. The standardization of the gauge isn't the only example of this. The US also spent a large amount of effort building the transcontinental railroad. A major reason for the success of the United States in the 20th century was the massive investment in infrastructure in the end of the 19th.

      The vast majority of the rail in the country was paid for by private investment, not public. Also, the vast majority of public and private investment in infrastructure occurred in the 20th century, not the 19th.

    28. Re:Part of a general pattern by Confusador · · Score: 1

      Since the GP was talking about "the second half of the 19th century," you might want to try that again with references to the correct time period.

    29. Re:Part of a general pattern by magamiako1 · · Score: 0

      The residents of Fukushima I'm sure share your sentiments.

    30. Re:Part of a general pattern by peragrin · · Score: 1

      While Iam not quite so annoyed by trains as the GP they do bother me. I have to cross 6 sets of tracks to get to work and on all three of them the trains will often stop in the middle of busy roads, and back up to switch tracks.

      If it was a side street it wouldn't be so bad, but every time they do traffic literally backs up for miles on each side.

      Trains do deliver a lot more than people realize(most cars are delivered by rail, and then offloaded to trucks closer to the destinations) However I really wish they wouldn't interupet regular traffic when they have places they can safely switch tracks(Not far from those intersections are huge sections of unimproved land miles in length with which they could work without crossing roads to do it.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    31. Re:Part of a general pattern by peragrin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Solar and wind will never replace coal or nuclear.

      Wind is far too inefficient (something like on average 25% of a given rating is actually produced) So 1MW are only really good for 250KW So to replace say a single nuclear plant you need several thousand wind turbines. Going bigger actually makes things worse. And the land and water areas required will make every cringe.

      Direct solar is also horribly ineffeceint(20% for a given amount of space) and requires huge flat areas to work.

      Solar Salt stands a decent chance, It still requires huge land areas however it can at least get up to decent MW levels.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    32. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still does. Try getting anywhere that's not in New York City, San Diego, or Chicago without a car, and you'll be spending a lot of time waiting or being herded where others want you to go. And you'd better plan in advance, because the bus isn't stopping at that quaint roadside diner you just saw.

      Agreed. Even if you live in NYC, especially the "outer boroughs" you aren't doing didly squat without a car or truck. Try hauling that week's worth of groceries for your family (or even a couple) without a car. Neighborhood supermarkets are out of reasonable walking distance with more than a
      bag or maybe two. I carried a microwave home once... never again.

    33. Re:Part of a general pattern by SuperQ · · Score: 1

      Proofreading is not my strong suit today.

      People are herded along the interstate and only stop long enough for gas, mcdonalds, and starbucks

    34. Re:Part of a general pattern by Americium · · Score: 1

      The problem was the instruments of energy we chose to achieve that without a clear vision or plan in mind to maintain it.

      Problem? We have been using gas for 100 years, and the only time there was a problem was when price controls were implemented. I keep hearing about problem that will arise.

    35. Re:Part of a general pattern by catmistake · · Score: 1

      (Oblig.) When God was handing out brains, he thought it was trains, and since he hated trains, he decided not to get one.

    36. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A massive government investment in railroad infrastructure is one of the biggest accepted historical myths. The only reason the railways were built is because those paying the bills were expecting profits. It was capitalism that built the American railway, not government. That said, I agree the investment was invaluable to the success and growth of our country.

      We also have to give thanks to all the low wage labor that moved the stone to get the job done.

    37. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget to mention the billions spent on clever advertising to keep people thinking that their car is the ultimate expression of freedom, the ultimate expression of who they are. Even as they sit in 5MPH bumper to bumper traffic. Even as they make the payment on an investment that will lose half its "value" in five years. Even as they spend $70.00 to fill up the fuel tank. Even as I on my bike keep catching up with them at stoplight after stoplight after stoplight.

      Sure, I have a car, a 2010 Jetta with a gas engine and a manual tranny. But I kept my last car (another Jetta) for fourteen years and the Jetta before that for eight. I like the new car, but I don't need it to get an erection.

    38. Re:Part of a general pattern by slapout · · Score: 1

      Quite a few things get to the warehouse on a train and are then delivered on a truck.

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    39. Re:Part of a general pattern by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      That's more of an issue of "the local gov't can't be arsed to build a bridge". Probably combined with NIMBY of people not wanting the hassles associated with constructing the bridge.

      Grade level crossings are just bad ideas in general. Too many impatient drivers attempt to dodge around the crossing bars, or the bars fail to lower, or they cause traffic jams.

      Unfortunately, bridges are expensive.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    40. Re:Part of a general pattern by souravzzz · · Score: 1

      "Steam engines will never replace Horses. Steam engine is far too inefficient. And the maintenance and cost will make everyone cringe. Petrol/diesel is also horribly inefficient and not at all reliable like horses." -some guy in 1750

    41. Re:Part of a general pattern by SuperQ · · Score: 2

      Yup, this is one of the major problems with some train routes in the US. There are tons and tons of train routes, the only ones you notice and get annoyed at are the ones with grade level crossings.

      Nobody gets upset because there's a BART going by. But people (including myself) have to wait for Caltrain to go by in a lot of places. Thankfully I only bike over Caltrain's right of way about once every few weeks these days.

      The US needs a major infrastructure push to get rail fixed.

      A) Eliminate grade level crossings in urban/suburban areas
      B) Electrify track to reduce noise and allow for more modern trainsets
      C) Fix regulations so passenger trains don't need to be as heavy (fixed by automation and better track scheduling systems)
      D) Fix tracks so that we can go faster than 79mph for both passenger and freight traffic.

      Imagine if lighter weight freight goods could be moved at 150+ mph. UPS/Fedex could move online orders cross country in 1-2 days instead of 4-5 via ground shipping.

    42. Re:Part of a general pattern by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      If you and your destination are both near Metro stations then public transportation is convenient here. But if not, it really isn't.

      On the other hand, given the difficulty of parking and the insane traffic patterns in D.C., if either public transportation or walking isn't convenient for your destination, then nothing is.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    43. Re:Part of a general pattern by niteshifter · · Score: 1

      That's not entirely correct: The White House handles the overflow, the principal repository / recycling center is the Capital with two chambers dedicated to the task.

    44. Re:Part of a general pattern by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2

      You "pull the cord"? Please tell me that was a figure of speech...

      Eh? One pulls on a cord running horizontally the length of the bus to signal the driver, "please stop at the next bus stop." Otherwise, if there are no passengers waiting to board at that stop, the bus will skip it.

      This is a common method used by buses in the U.S. Perhaps a different method is used where you are; I've been on buses that had some sort of touch sensor, but this is apparently much more expensive.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    45. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you'd better plan in advance, because the bus isn't stopping at that quaint roadside diner you just saw.

      While I agree that this is a good example of the increased freedom one gets by travelling by car, planning in advance is certainly not a bad thing. Even if you do have your own car, you would still be dependent on there being roadside diners along your way that are open for business, have good food, and so on. The safest choice is still to plan ahead and either eat before you leave or somewhere in the town you are leaving, assuming you won't reach your destination before you need to eat (I rarely go anywhere that takes more than 6-8 hours to go by car).

    46. Re:Part of a general pattern by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      We spend a lot of our energy (in the form of oil) on trucking where a lot of that could go by rail, if it were competitive. I live in Germany and it's pretty much the same here. The German Rail System, which used to be the envy of the world, now seems mismanaged and many of the same causes are found in both countries. Moving as much cargo as possible to rail would not only save huge amounts of energy, it would also get a lot of the heavy trucks off the interstate system and save on maintenance costs. It's estimated that an 18-wheeler causes 40 times the damage than a family sedan. But no one in the US (or Germany) seems to have the political will to drive that change.

    47. Re:Part of a general pattern by dave87656 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I know I'm stating the obvious for many readers. But that's because post WW2, oil was cheap, and driving equated to the ultimate form of personal freedom. So much freedom in fact that the suburbs were created in that time period too. Of course, cheap energy wont last forever. I can't predict what will happen in the future with regards to transportation, but I can predict that the current status quo will not last.

      The problem wasn't our desire for freedom and independence with how we lived our lives. The problem was the instruments of energy we chose to achieve that without a clear vision or plan in mind to maintain it.

      The low-hanging fruit in this equation is freight. If we could move a large portion of the long-distance freight to Rail, it would (1) relieve the interstate system and (2) save a lot of oil, since rail miles per gallon per ton is about 435. An 18-wheeler can transport about 36 tons and gets something like 7 or 8 mpg, which is about 250 miles per gallon per ton. Of course, there are other factors, such as the fact that the train will probably have a slightly longer route and that you will still need local delivery, but the potential savings, financial and ecological, are high.

    48. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a reason for the divide, and its a little more complicated than some income issue you read about in your school textbook.

    49. Re:Part of a general pattern by DeathElk · · Score: 1

      Ah, the joys of non-linear text creation.

    50. Re:Part of a general pattern by moronoxyd · · Score: 1

      Here in Germany, I only ever see buttons to signal the bus driver.

    51. Re:Part of a general pattern by blackchiney · · Score: 2

      Fukushima was built in the late 60s, when nuclear was the wave of the future. But rather than build new reactors and decommission old ones they run those same old reactors until they literally fall apart. Nuclear power construction has improved since then but the only people getting new, updated, clean reactors aren't Japan or the US. If anything Fukushima residents should be blaming TEPCO first and the government second. The former should have shut it down ages ago and the latter should be authorizing new plants to be built.

    52. Re:Part of a general pattern by quintesse · · Score: 1

      It's because cords to ring a bell (even if it's electronic at the very end of the cord) harkens back to the days of horse driven trams!

      It just shows that if there is so little money invested in the public transport system that they start cutting back on the small expenses like a cord instead of just a bunch of simple buttons (which is what I am used to see).

      It also means that you can't easily have different kinds of stop signals. Or at different hights. In several European countries for example they will have buttons at a height where people in a wheelchair can reach them. For the same people (or a parent with a baby in a stroller) there is a button they can use to ask to lower the bus or a ramp so they can get off (more easily), depending on the type of bus.

    53. Re:Part of a general pattern by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 2

      Energy from nuclear reactors is not cheap at all. Even if you try to ignore the risk of a disaster, nuclear reactors are incredibly expensive to build and decommission and the story of cheap nuclear energy is a pipe dream that was never realized.

      Why do you think the nuclear lobby complains about Congress? There is no law on the books against building new nuclear plants. Of course you have to get the permits, but Congress does not give those out, the various government agencies do, and they usually do give out permits. There are already permits issued for several new nuclear plants in the US. No the nuclear lobby complains about Congress because they want money. Because the story about cheap nuclear energy is a lie and the private sector will not build a nuclear reactor without getting a bunch of taxpayer or electricity payer money to fund it.

      Take another example natural gas. Nobody asks Congress to build natural gas reactors, they just build them. That's because they actually make money, which means people invest in them, so nobody needs to squeeze money from the taxpayer to make them. But nuclear plants are huge and expensive boondogles and actual investors are not dumb enough to invest in them. So they go after the taxpayer of course hoping that the taxpayer is dumb enough.

    54. Re:Part of a general pattern by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 1

      San Diego???? Why was San Diego an exception? I used to live in San Diego and believe me it sucked without a car. Yes they do have a trolley they are very proud of, but it does not really go anywhere, it just makes a lot of noise around downtown, and San Diego is mostly suburbs. Did San Diego get a city wide subway system without me noticing? That would be awesome, but I really doubt it happened.

      Anyways you probably meant to say San Francisco.

    55. Re:Part of a general pattern by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I am willing to bet that one of those cities was LA. The bastards in Hancock park completely blocked the subway because it would ruin their pristine neighborhood. And now we have a hugely expensive subway system which does not go anywhere near the west side of LA or the beach so it is kind of useless for most people.

      So now we all get to enjoy the traffic.

    56. Re:Part of a general pattern by m50d · · Score: 2

      In Britain at least, "pulling the cord" means the emergency-stop mechanism. Signalling for a bus to stop is usually a button; we'd probably just say "ring the bell"

      --
      I am trolling
    57. Re:Part of a general pattern by teh+kurisu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's what they said about the first generation of nuclear reactors. "Too cheap to meter" was the phrase. But we're still in the situation where heating a house using electricity is an expensive option, and even the 'cheap' option of natural gas heating is too expensive for some people during the winter.

      Nuclear reactors exist within an electricity market and will sell their electricity for whatever they can get for it. They also have to make sure that over the lifetime of the plant, they save up enough cash to fund the extensive decommissioning process at the end of the plant's life.

      I'll believe in "too cheap to meter" when I see it.

    58. Re:Part of a general pattern by dkf · · Score: 1

      Try getting anywhere that's not in New York City, San Diego, or Chicago without a car

      The Chicago 'burbs suck without a car. (OTOH, quite a bit of Boston is reachable by public transit, but I don't know whether enough of it is; only done conferences there...)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    59. Re:Part of a general pattern by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      While I understand you're speaking from your personal experience, but to say that they can't do stuff like that is simply naive at best. Here in Ottawa, Canada, we have multiple kinds of signal available on the bus system... there's no signals on the commuter trains, but that's because they stop at every stop anyway. As for the bus, though, there're buttons every couple of vertical posts, as well as at the doors, there're cords running along the windows, and there are buttons at wheelchair height in the wheelchair bays at the front of the bus. The newer double decker buses they're rolling out don't have the cord any more, but are otherwise the same.

      It's not really a question of money not being spent though... Ottawa has a woefully underfunded (and overpriced) transit system... many of the buses we're using are more than 15 years old, and I have seen much newer buses in use in other cities... we only *just* upgraded the buses to have a disembodied voice from above announcing the stops (which makes me giggle inside, because it does it in English and French, even though proper names don't translate and most of the time it's just saying the same thing again with a French accent), which is something I saw in use in Europe more than a decade ago. It's a question of the people buying the buses not really thinking through the features on the buses they're buying. Most of Ottawa's fleet is manufactured by New Flyer, in Winnipeg, and they're a company that does understand what they're doing in terms of accessibility... some of the other manufacturers of buses not so much, it would appear.

    60. Re:Part of a general pattern by Christopher+Fritz · · Score: 1

      Oh, like in that one episode of "I Love Lucy" where Lucy keeps pulling the cord and bring the train to an abrupt stop. The comment from quintesse completely makes sense now. Thanks!

    61. Re:Part of a general pattern by erikdalen · · Score: 1

      In Sweden there used to be cords to pull in 60's era buses they have been replaced by buttons long time ago.

      --
      Erik Dalén
    62. Re:Part of a general pattern by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the US hasn't done much in the way of large scale infrastructural improvement since the building of the highway system in the 1950s.

      Unless you count, you know, the Internet. Surely that counts as infrastructure, doesn't it? The ability to move data offsets some of the need to move people and goods.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    63. Re:Part of a general pattern by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      It's too bad that we haven't had a Department of Energy to guide our collective energy policies for something like 30-40 years.

      Oh wait, we have. And they've spent BILLIONS of dollars, to do what again?

      The simple fact is that infrastructure spending is motivated by growth or by decrepitude. The US isn't particularly growing into the empty spaces anymore, so that's no longer an impetus.

      So now it's decrepitude. We, as a democracy, will continue to elect legislators with the nicest smile, the right skin color, or based on their policy of what is or isn't happening in a woman's uterus. Politicians who cogently explain that we will have to forego services we've become accustomed to, and even perhaps raise taxes in order to pay off the maintenance we've deferred for 30 years - will never be elected.

      A bridge will collapse, we'll point fingers, it'll become politically expedient to throw piles of money at the problem (the least efficient way to maintain infrastructure), and some things will temporarily improve until everyone is distracted by Hollywood news again.

      We get what we deserve, really. When's the last time you sat in on a city council meeting?

      --
      -Styopa
    64. Re:Part of a general pattern by RockDoctor · · Score: 2

      But that's because post WW2, oil was cheap,

      [SNIP]

      Of course, cheap energy wont last forever.

      cheap energy didn't last forever.

      FTFY

      I am an oil geologist ; finding new reserves is getting harder, and un-explored or under-explored areas are getting fewer and further from market - which is my specialism, and why I work intercontinentally and inter-hemispherically.

      Actually ... you've just proposed a problem for me - is there a hemisphere on the Earth where I haven't worked, and if there is, what would it's pole be? That's an interesting maths problem, but I think it'd be easier to check with my globe and some Post-Its(TM).

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    65. Re:Part of a general pattern by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Nice straw man. Public transport isn't supposed to replace every random journey you make, it is supposed to make life easier for a large number of people who make similar journeys.

      In places with good public transport you can get say from home to work faster and in more comfort than you could in a car. More direct routes, less traffic, right to the centre of town with no parking to worry about or pay for. You can sit down and read or use your phone/laptop on the way, making use of time that is otherwise wasted behind the wheel of your car.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    66. Re:Part of a general pattern by minorproblem · · Score: 1

      While you say that all these feats are impossible, just wait till you see the technology that is being developed to support this new infrastructure. The division of the company i work for is involved in new HVDC designs. We already have working prototypes and are preparing for large scale production of the next generation of HVDC converters which are much more compact and can easily fit on a small offshore platform and transmit 500MW+. Also the next generation of offshore wind turbines we are producing are rated at 5MW per unit. Also we are the number one provider in energy market prediction and sale software. The next 50 years is going to be wind, solar, gas, nuclear and anyone who has the technology to adapt the gird to support all of this infrastructure interconnected is going to make a fortune.

    67. Re:Part of a general pattern by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      You forgot about the cost of pollution. Oil and coal are artificially cheap because the people who use them to pollute don't directly pick up the cost, so the government has to step in with taxes.

      Politics will drive the move to renewable too. In Japan there is more opposition to nuclear than ever now, so projects for generating energy from alternative sources are being accelerated. Japan doesn't have much in the way of natural resources like coal or gas and space based solar looks to be the way forward there.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    68. Re:Part of a general pattern by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It IS part of a general pattern... of paranoia. Instead of converting the nation to the standard used in Russia we converted to something else to prevent them ever shipping rail cars over here with artillery on them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    69. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot Boston, Philadelphia, and DC. Basically the northern half of "The Sprawl" from Neuromancer exists IRL.

    70. Re:Part of a general pattern by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I live in one suburb and live in another. I could take a bus, if I walked a couple miles then sat on two busses for two hours.

      Or I can just hop in the car and be at work in about 10 minutes.

      Some of my coworkers do bus in from one suburb to the one I work in; they happen to live roughly due west, and a lot of the bus lines basical run toward and away from Chicago.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    71. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Derp.

    72. Re:Part of a general pattern by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      In my town, which is supposed to be the 16th largest city in the US, it takes me ~35 minutes to travel from home to work. If I take the normal line bus route, that same trip is ~75 minutes. If I take the express line, the trip is ~55 minutes and I am limited to working about a 7.5 hour day (and no lunch) - which isn't good for the employee who can't make up the time while on the road sitting on the bus.

    73. Re:Part of a general pattern by eth1 · · Score: 1

      The problem was the instruments of energy we chose to achieve that without a clear vision or plan in mind to maintain it.

      Of course there was a clear vision. It was CLEAR that it wouldn't run out in OUR lifetime, so why should WE worry about it...

    74. Re:Part of a general pattern by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Fukushima was hit by the largest earthquake in Japanese history and a huge tsunami. And, even still, how many people will it kill in the end--a few dozen maybe (most of them plant workers)? WAY more people died in the surrounding area from that tsunami than will ever die from any radiation. And yet, it will be treated as some sort of great disaster, used by environmentalists as a bludgeon to stop much-needed nuclear plant construction for decades to come. And all because environmentalists will never admit that wind and solar will NEVER be able to replace more conventional forms of electrical generation, no matter how much they try to hype them. Nuclear power is the only practical, consistent, realistic form of electrical generation that can replace coal right now. So if you don't want to go with nuclear, you had better damn well learn to live with coal. Because wind-farms and solar arrays just ain't going to cut it, buddy.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    75. Re:Part of a general pattern by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Did you even read what I wrote?

      Your public transport system is shit. Even good ones will not serve everyone. However, when the system is well run and cheap it can be beneficial for a lot of people, including the ones who drive to their destination on less congested roads.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    76. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that the Oil and Auto industry conspired to destroy public transport. They bought up and drove into bankruptcy trolly lines, making car ownership absolutely necessary in the burgeoning suburban world.

    77. Re:Part of a general pattern by PerfectionLost · · Score: 1

      Live in a city. Buy a bike.

    78. Re:Part of a general pattern by khallow · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the US hasn't done much in the way of large scale infrastructural improvement since the building of the highway system in the 1950s.

      What's "unfortunate" about it? As I see it, the highway system is still building up. Electric grid is more reliable and capable than it was in the 50s. Air travel is vastly more capable and safer than it was in the 50s. And we have the internet.

      In comparison, no business case for high speed train has been made in the US. Acela is moderately profitable, despite this, but it has to support the rest of the Amtrak failure. Most of the track currently proposed doesn't connect viable destinations (for example, connecting cities too close together so that HSR can't compete with cars), high costs, and doesn't have ridership to cover those costs.

      I'm deeply worried about what the next few years are going to be like.

      I am too, but that's because the US government is insisting on spending tremendous money on entitlements such as health care or pensions rather than infrastructure, new or old.

    79. Re:Part of a general pattern by databaseadmin · · Score: 1

      No major infrastructure improvements lately?

      Um. The internet. The at-home-broadband.

      Things to do:

      First, wireless cities.
      Then, Low-Latency-High-Throughput Wireless cities and we could make the physical transportation of people for work mostly obsolete. While others are trying to achieve 186 miles per hour?! We'll be cruising at 186,000 miles per second.

    80. Re:Part of a general pattern by operagost · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the fact that gasoline and diesel fuel didn't exist in 1750, I'd like to point out that even a 100% efficient solar panel would be hard-pressed to produce the power of a nuclear plan in the same land area unless our sun decides to start putting out more energy. The sun puts an average of 100 w/sq ft on the Earth, while a modern nuclear plant (you know, the ones that the "green" movement doesn't want us to build) generate about 300 w/sq ft. This means lots more private property seized via eminent domain. Of course, I don't expect anyone in the green movement to care because 3/4 of them are socialists who hate private property (because they don't have any) and the rest are corporatists who are eagerly awaiting the seized property to be awarded to their enterprises.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    81. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last year I went from Berlin to Prague by train, then wised up and rented a car to meander my way back to Berlin to fly home (to America). The first half of the trip I remember a lot of train stations, bad food, rude German people, having to worry about where my 50 pound backpack was all the time, etc. The second half was rolling green fields, windmills, parks, castles...

      So yeah, trains are good for getting from point A to point B cheap, if you don't cherish your time. I would be OK commuting to work on a train, maybe. IMHO, the dream of seeing Europe by train is crap, unless it's the only thing you can afford.

    82. Re:Part of a general pattern by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      It depends where in the city you want to go. In some places parking isn't hard. Downtown, it's very hard, unless you're willing to pay twenty bucks for a spot in a garage, in which case it's also easy. But not everyone has twenty dollar bills to throw around like that, so I see your point.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    83. Re:Part of a general pattern by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The difference is that in the US you can't practically get *anywhere* without a car except downtown, while in the rest of the world you can at least get around the city and suburbs. But if you're going somewhere relatively unpopulated, good luck where ever you are. The car is always going to be first choice to get to your cabin in the middle of nowhere.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    84. Re:Part of a general pattern by demonbug · · Score: 1

      It's because cords to ring a bell (even if it's electronic at the very end of the cord) harkens back to the days of horse driven trams!

      It just shows that if there is so little money invested in the public transport system that they start cutting back on the small expenses like a cord instead of just a bunch of simple buttons (which is what I am used to see).

      It also means that you can't easily have different kinds of stop signals. Or at different hights. In several European countries for example they will have buttons at a height where people in a wheelchair can reach them. For the same people (or a parent with a baby in a stroller) there is a button they can use to ask to lower the bus or a ramp so they can get off (more easily), depending on the type of bus.

      Buses where I'm from use the cord method. Seems much more sensible than having to place (and wire) a bunch of individual buttons. Just string a cord on either side of the bus along the windows, with a vertical cord attached every few feet, and one switch on each side. Easily accessible to everyone, including people in wheelchairs (though if the bus is packed and you are stuck standing in the aisle you might have to ask someone to pull the cord for you). I don't see how having lots of individual buttons that need to be individually wired and where each is prone to failure is any kind of improvement.

      In the buses here, the disabled access ramps are only located at the front of the bus, next to the driver, with the disabled/wheelchair seating immediately behind. So no need for electronics, or separate disabled buttons, you just tell the driver and he/she lowers the ramp.

    85. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we'd probably just say "ring the bell"

      No bell on the last American bus I rode. Just a computerized voice that says, "Stop requested". The buttons are far nicer than cords, but this bus still had cords.

    86. Re:Part of a general pattern by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      You make some good points. I don't understand your impatience with Caltrain grade level crossings, though. Where I live there are freight trains that take up to 10 minutes to pass (multi hundred car coal loads) and these are a big inconvenience. Light rail crossings are usually less than one minute, about the same as a pretty quick traffic light.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    87. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you know, the ones that the "green" movement doesn't want us to build) generate about 300 w/sq ft. This means lots more private property seized via eminent domain. Of course, I don't expect anyone in the green movement to care because 3/4 of them are socialists who hate private property (because they don't have any) and the rest are corporatists who are eagerly awaiting the seized property to be awarded to their enterprises.

      Nice straw man. I'm glad to see you easily defeated him. Keep it up and you'll be fighting paper tigers before you know it!

    88. Re:Part of a general pattern by spitzak · · Score: 1

      That always sounded really stupid to me. Oh, no, we can't have the subway stop here, the gang bangers might use it to get here and do drive-by shootings!

      Hint: those people you fear have cars.

    89. Re:Part of a general pattern by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      Plant insurance is the another thing that comes to mind: nobody, really, nobody will insure a nuclear power plant against the risk of meltdown, no matter how small.

      So the plants run uninsured.

      Not a big deal, since meltdowns happen quite rarely. BUT: Coal, gas and oil fired power plants have to provide private insurance. Nuclear plants don't.

      But since damages will be felt by people, will destroy property, will destroy health and wipe out entire towns, an uninsured nuclear power plant is in fact still insured against meltdown - just by the taxpayer.

      Therefore, a running power plant will bring profits to a private corporation, while the general population aka the Taxpayers bear the risks.

      Private gains for public risks. Now why do even die-hard free-market zealots have a problem with nuclear power?

    90. Re:Part of a general pattern by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      You forgot about the cost of pollution.

      In America, pollution is free, for the most part.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    91. Re:Part of a general pattern by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      The residents of Fukushima I'm sure share your sentiments.

      Good points but I wonder what the politics and
      regulations were that facilitated the upgrading
      and replacement of these systems. Oh wait
      these plants are about as old as they get....

      The reactors and generation facilities at Fukushima
      were not the latest and greatest. Could the operators
      have updated the site. Yes I suspect they could have built
      sea walls that were bigger because they did not "touch"
      the site directly. But could they have rebuilt and
      moved the reactor.

      Much of the globe has facilities that need to be
      refreshed and upgraded... what regulations constrain and
      limit improvements.

      This issue is not limited to the nuclear industry...

      A lot of this is like aspirin. Aspirin would "never" pass
      regulatory review and become the over the counter drug
      it is today if it was not already on the market.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    92. Re:Part of a general pattern by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      A massive government investment in railroad infrastructure is one of the biggest accepted historical myths. The only reason the railways were built is because those paying the bills were expecting profits. It was capitalism that built the American railway, not government. That said, I agree the investment was invaluable to the success and growth of our country.

      We also have to give thanks to all the low wage labor that moved the stone to get the job done.

      The massive government investment needs to include/ consider the six mile checkerboard
      of land almost half of which was granted to the rail. Also include the land grant school
      sections. Two critical requirements were involved. One was the cadastral survey. The other
      was the rail grade, track and right of way. Pacific Railroad Act of 1862... and more...

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    93. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, there are other factors, such as the fact that the train will probably have a slightly longer route and that you will still need local delivery, but the potential savings, financial and ecological, are high.

      Much of the savings in (what's left of) manufacturing came from Just In Time inventory management. The idea that the last windscreen in inventory is placed on the vehicle as the new batch of windscreens arrives at the loading dock. The current scheme of JIT management has optimized for road delivery, not bulk delivery. In fact, much of factory manufacturing was done to the scale of train freight.

      In order for rail freight to compete with road freight, rail has to provide the ability to deliver smaller quantities more often. No business wants to be left holding the inventory bag at the end of their (financial) year and pay taxes on it. No business builds larger warehouses to hold months of raw materials for manufacturing. Everything is made as needed, and shipped out in small batches..

      Well, the point was that the current rail system has several physical bottlenecks, one of which is Chicago. There is not enough capacity to route freight across the US without moving it through Chicago. Most times, it takes days to unhook, route, and shuffle amongst the railyards until you find the train headed in the general direction of your freight.

      It's pretty well established what needs to be done to get a new highway through -- federal and state environmental studies, bulldozers, concrete or asphalt, and you have a new highway linking two points. For some reason, the same process for railways seems to take much longer.

    94. Re:Part of a general pattern by SuperQ · · Score: 1

      Caltrain is heavy rail, not light rail. Durring commute rush hours this situation can happen at the Mountain View caltrain station:

      North trains: 5:37, 5:46, 5:58, 6:03
      South trains: 5:36, 5:50, 5:56

      The timing is pretty good for north and south bound trains arriving at the same time. The problem is that the station is 200 feet from downtown mountain view's main street which crosses the busy central expressway. The expressway is not a freeway and has traffic lights.

      When the northbound train arrives the lights are cycled to make sure there are no cars blocking the track in case the train is unable to stop. This causes the lights to be cycled twice per northbound train. If the southbound train is off by a few min this can cause a continual reset of the light cycle backing up traffic for a while. There are some other grade crossings that are worse due to the long cycle length of the central expressway lights.

      This causes more than just traffic problems. Lots of pedestrians and cyclists are trying to cross the expressway to get to the train station. This causes some people to make dangerous against the crosswalk light crosses in order to try and make it to a train on time.

      Grade level crossings need to be removed in order to provide smoother train operation.

    95. Re:Part of a general pattern by mcornelius · · Score: 1

      Coal kills even more people.

    96. Re:Part of a general pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A large portion of the long distance freight is already on rail. It is not uncommon to see trains consisting of nothing but double stacked containers on their way from a port to the warehouses from which their contents will be distributed. The same is true for large bulk shipments of grain, coal, chemicals, etc. The problem with the railroads isn't that the route may be longer or that a truck is still needed to take the freight from the rail yard to the final destination. The reason so much freight is still on long haul trucks has to do with the flexibility and speed at which they can take freight from one part of the country to another. By the time it takes the railroad to assemble a train of freight cars that will be going from Point A to Point B, a truck has already delivered its cargo and returned with another load, possibly several times. That's not a problem for items that aren't time dependent or where the entire train is dedicated to one delivery (ex: a load of coal from a mine to a power plant, or a load of grain from a series of grain elevators on a normal scheduled route to a processing or export terminal). Many companies also don't want their products sitting in a relatively unprotected rail yard for up to a week or more either. The phrase "um..it fell off a truck" was certainly proceeded by "um..it fell off a train" as was the case a few years ago when Nike lost a shipment of new shoes from a rail yard. The shoes were a part of an yet to be announced product line, so when a high school basketball team near the rail yard showed up at a game with all the players wearing the unannounced footwear, it didn't take the cops too long to figure out where they originated.

    97. Re:Part of a general pattern by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      That makes sense, thank you for explaining the problem. I think these problems tend to occur gradually, making assumptions and compromises that were reasonable at the time unworkable as more road, traffic, trains are added over the years. I've seen heavy rail areas with underground or elevated pedestrian crossings which would address part of the problem.

      I don't know the political situation in the bay area, but in most of the US there is an irrational hatred of rail that results in strong opposition to any investment in improvements.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  4. as Great Great Great Stephen P. Jobs the 1st said: by arcite · · Score: 1

    "Standard Gauge is thin. Standard Gauge is beautiful. Standard Gauge goes anywhere and lasts all day. There’s not right way or wrong way. It’s crazy powerful. It’s magical. You already know how to use it. It’s 11,500 miles of track and counting. All the worlds” interchanges in your hands. It’s 4 ft. 9 in., standard. More rail than you could ride in a lifetime. It’s already a revolution and it’s only just begun."

  5. Only a few left.... by caluml · · Score: 0, Troll

    Metric. Date format. IPv6. 240v 50Hz. Not many left to go, Americans.

    1. Re:Only a few left.... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1, Troll

      Metric would be good.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    2. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mosyt of those, there are clear advantage to. easy base conversion and unit creation, unambiguous and lexical-chronological sorting equivalence, more than 4bil addresses respectively

      is there some clear advantage to 240v 50hz AC?

    3. Re:Only a few left.... by isopropanol · · Score: 2

      Houses are already wired for 240v, just not most appliances so not most outlets. Few residential applications use synchronous motors, so the frequency doesn't matter much (beyond higher frequencies allowing smaller transformers). And at least mainland North American countries all use the same plug.

    4. Re:Only a few left.... by x*yy*x · · Score: 2

      Date format is stupid all around the world. Everyone should just use 2011-05-08 15:00. Yes, drop the stupid am/pm stuff too.

    5. Re:Only a few left.... by Jeek+Elemental · · Score: 5, Funny

      wow that must be one mother of a plug

    6. Re:Only a few left.... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well if you're going to do that then you should also drop the 24 hours clock - 24? What's up with that??? The 100 hour/day clock makes much more sense - think of all the overtime we'd get!

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    7. Re:Only a few left.... by Cwix · · Score: 2

      Fire marshal had a heart attack when he saw all the daisy chained power strips.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    8. Re:Only a few left.... by caluml · · Score: 1

      I think Swatch made a watch that basically counted 1000 .... ticks? per day. So you'd wake up at, say, 300, go to work from 400 to 800, etc. Just found it

    9. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      240V lets you use less copper to deliver a given amount of power. (Higher voltage -> lower current -> lower resistive losses -> higher acceptable wire resistance).

    10. Re:Only a few left.... by dj245 · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a slight advantage to having 240v but not much. Cables can be thinner and carry the same amount of power since the amps are lower. But, for the highest power devices in US homes (water heaters, clothes driers, ovens, etc) they are already on 240V. For other appliances there isn't enough advantage to justify switching the entire country and changing billions of dollars of infrastructure. The efficiency advantage is small. 60hz has the advantage as far as frequency goes. 60hz distribution systems are slightly more efficient. 60Hz steam turbines are smaller than their 50hz counterparts, which saves material costs for turbine manufacturers (and the utilities who buy them). There is basically no difference to the end-user. All the advantages/disadvantages are on the utility and distribution side. Again, there is no compelling reason to change the entire US over to 50Hz, and change out billions of dollars of infrastructure.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    11. Re:Only a few left.... by lilomar · · Score: 1

      Oh, I see you use the Microsoft theory of "standard" aka: make shit up that doesn't match what anyone else is doing, then try to force everyone to follow.
      (yes, I know you were being factious, so was I.)

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    12. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Higher voltage = lower transmission losses. (APC has a whitepaper recommending 240 V in the server room on this basis.)

      50 Hz vs 60 Hz makes no difference (except that analog equipment designed for one will fail horrible on the other, of course.)

      Considering that modern switching power supplies will happily accept anything from 100 to 250 volt, and any frequency (even DC), there's not much point in standardizing either.

    13. Re:Only a few left.... by caluml · · Score: 1

      I think most of the world works on 240/50. It would make travelling, a lot easier. Different plugs, sure that's easy, and adapters are small, but to have to bring converters with you, that's a pain. Although I have just looked up which countries use what, and actually it's not quite such a clearcut divider as metric/imperial.

    14. Re:Only a few left.... by dascritch · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, as long America is a British Empire Colony, no way to explain them the beautiful simplicity of the Metric system.

      --
      (Sorry my bad French) Je fais parler les Guignols de l'Info. Le pied, quoi.
    15. Re:Only a few left.... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but there is any advantage on 50Hz? Or any disadvantage? Or any kind network effect?

    16. Re:Only a few left.... by Glendale2x · · Score: 5, Informative

      is there some clear advantage to 240v 50hz AC?

      No. Frequency is largely irrelevant. The only common (although probably not so much anymore) residential application I can think of are wall clocks with synchronous motors using the line frequency to keep time. Increasing the voltage would give you more usable power out of your common 15/20A household branch circuit, but that's it. Perhaps you could lower the total number of branch circuits by going to higher voltage, but I don't know how many people would really care that they have 1/3 fewer breakers. Or you have crazy ass things like the UK ring circuit.

      Take a look at a lot of your electronics and you'll see that they probably accept a "universal input" of 50/60Hz between 100-240VAC. One distinct advantage higher frequency has is allowing smaller size of components like transformers. This is why you'll see things like 115VAC @ 400Hz in aircraft.

      --
      this is my sig
    17. Re:Only a few left.... by dakohli · · Score: 2

      Date format is stupid all around the world. Everyone should just use 2011-05-08 15:00. Yes, drop the stupid am/pm stuff too.

      Try: 1500 08-05-2011

    18. Re:Only a few left.... by perryizgr8 · · Score: 0

      i find 8-5-2011 the most logical date order. and the stupidest way is 5-8-2011. now that is just random!

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    19. Re:Only a few left.... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Funny but you do know standard gauge is not a metric standard. So when is Europe going to finish it's move to metric and change all their rail road tracks to some metric standard?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    20. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Hungary, that is the standard and everyday use. (only with dots in the date instead of dashes)

    21. Re:Only a few left.... by stumblingblock · · Score: 2

      Your forgot Esperanto.

    22. Re:Only a few left.... by Megane · · Score: 2

      143.5cm. There, all done! Now get cracking on moving all those rails 0.1mm closer.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    23. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "i find 8-5-2011 the most logical date order"

      Logical in what way? the digits are most significant first, and the date/time elements are least significant first.

      If you want to be consistent with least significant first, you would have:

      00:51 80-50-1102

      If you want most significant first, you would have:
      2011-05-08 15:00

      Which is international scientific

    24. Re:Only a few left.... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      2011-05-08 15:00 sorts naturally left-to-right. 1500 08-05-2011 requires you to parse out the elements and sort on each one individually.

      Internally, though, you should just use POSIX time, which is universal and mostly easy to handle, only becoming difficult when you have to make distinctions based on traditional representations (and that's *always* difficult). Convert it out to whatever format the users need when necessary.

    25. Re:Only a few left.... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Most significant on the left is the natural order for most writing systems (if you're not from the middle east), and including leading zeros makes it easier to sort automatically, thus 2011-05-08 is more logical than 8-5-2011. Both are more logical than 5-8-2011, though.

    26. Re:Only a few left.... by lucian1900 · · Score: 1

      That's an odd thing to say, seeing as how the UK has been transitioning to metric for quite a while now.

    27. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Try: 1500 08-05-2011"

      If you are going to be consistent with least-first order,

      Try: 0051 80-50-1102

      Or if you are going to consistent with most-first order,

      Try: 2011-05-08 1500

      (ISO 8601)

    28. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard gauge is metric, it's 1.435 meter.

    29. Re:Only a few left.... by brit74 · · Score: 1

      Just so you know: most countries in the Americas use 120v. Europe used to use 120v, as well. Now, the Old World almost all use 240v. ( http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm )

      Shall we standardize our electrical plug shapes, too? At least the US and most of North America has a standard shape. There are currently 13 different plugs because everyone wanted to develop their own.

    30. Re:Only a few left.... by dkf · · Score: 1

      240v 50Hz.

      They'd be better off going to 240v 60Hz (currently used in some parts of Asia, IIRC) as that allows older devices to work with only a simple passive converter transformer; high-power applications such as motors are much more likely to need to be frequency matched than low-power applications such as electronics.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    31. Re:Only a few left.... by zippthorne · · Score: 2

      No, little-endian makes more sense because it's consistent. In your example, you've got a big-endian super-format, where each of the constituents are little-endian. That's just stupid.

      And there's already a standard for dates. ISO 8601. It's basically what the parent described.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    32. Re:Only a few left.... by jcwayne · · Score: 1

      Sorry, why again should we bow down to you people, oh great and wonderful god-like perfect Europeans?

      It's standard etiquette, at least in civilized countries.

      --
      Failure to follow this advice may result in non-deterministic behavior.
    33. Re:Only a few left.... by brit74 · · Score: 1

      Around the time of the French Revolution, the French came up with some metric ways of measuring time. They created a calendar of 30 days each month (with five extra days each year), and the time of day was split into divisions of ten ("ten hours, each hour into 100 decimal minutes, and each decimal minute into 100 decimal seconds"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

    34. Re:Only a few left.... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Yes. Beats. But there was a single timezone, so you might wake up at @900, get to work at @950 and leave at @350 the following day.

      An elegant system but no pressing need to change when everyone's standardised on hours minutes and seconds.

    35. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      metric enough to measure => standard gauge is 1,435 mm
      also standard gauge isn't an imperial measurement either, it's a 'standard', if it were, it would be a furlong wide, a cup deep, hold a chord of ties and held down with a stone of nails

    36. Re:Only a few left.... by WarwickRyan · · Score: 1

      Well, as long America is a British Empire Colony, no way to explain them the beautiful simplicity of the Metric system.

      It always makes me smile that the UK runs on the metric system. I'm 30 and I only know the imperial measurements from road signs and the British Pint (~568ml).

      One thing that everyone (except programmers) does wrong is dates in the Gregorian system. It would be much easier if we just went small endian: 2005-12-31 or 2005/12/31 is much better than 6/4/2005 because it sorts logically and can't be confused as dd/mm/yy and mm/ddy/y are.

    37. Re:Only a few left.... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Mmmmm, perhaps you meant to say facetious?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    38. Re:Only a few left.... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Not really. Not enough to justify changing it anyway. There are devices (usually clocks) that expect a 60Hz input. 50Hz is a more common standard but enough of the world uses 60Hz to stick to it.

      Also I've heard that 60Hz televisions can cause strobing issues with 50Hz fluorescent tubes, although that may just be something I read on the internet.

    39. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, as long America is a British Empire Colony, no way to explain them the beautiful simplicity of the Metric system.

      Worked for the Empire, should work for the Colony :P

    40. Re:Only a few left.... by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      Hey, get China and India to standardise on your units and we'll consider it ourselves.

      Thing is we all think standardisation is good. Most of the world uses metric. It's easier for the 5% to change than the 95%.

    41. Re:Only a few left.... by kmdrtako · · Score: 1

      US is Metric. By law. Passed in Congress in 1866. Not mandatory, but still---

      Go to the store. Look at boxes of cereal, cans of vegetables, bottles of soda, etc.. All measured in metric units.

    42. Re:Only a few left.... by Gim+Tom · · Score: 1

      Uh, and would your Sig. apply to Roger?

    43. Re:Only a few left.... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      A friend once bought a laser printer in the US (60Hz) and took it to New Zealand (50Hz). The power supply handled the 120v to 240v issue, but the motor that fed the paper through the system couldn't handle the frequency difference so that when he printed, the image on the pages was compressed because the paper moved too slowly.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    44. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's how the metric system started!

    45. Re:Only a few left.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this a major problem somehow? Are Chinese and Indian public infrastructure projects failing because American road signs use miles instead of kilometers?

      Its not a war of standards, keep using metric, the 4.5% isn't interested in making the 95.5% switch

    46. Re:Only a few left.... by MrQuacker · · Score: 1

      With light bulbs running at 50Hz, you can see them flicker out of the corner of your eye. Its just at the edge of the range where yours eyes can tell the difference.

    47. Re:Only a few left.... by adolf · · Score: 2

      Some linear power supplies (think transformer, diode bridge, caps) that are designed for 60Hz will fail in ugly ways with 50Hz power. The current capacity of the transformer is reduced, and for power supplies that are already heavily loaded (which is disturbingly common for unregulated supplies) this can push them over the edge. (Not to mention the effects that frequency has on the desired size of filter caps, which might also be insufficient at 50Hz)

      Much of the audio gear I have would be unhappy at 50Hz.

      The opposite usually works fine, though: Linear supplies designed to operate at 50Hz are generally happy at 60Hz, as the current capacity increases.

      On the other hand, most of the current breed of switching supplies don't really care much about input voltage, frequency, or waveform: They're so not picky, these days, you can pretty much feed them anything resembling AC and they'll either produce proper output, or no output.

    48. Re:Only a few left.... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Metric would be good.

      Hmmm, got modded Troll for that... methinks somebody has their panties in a bunch. A really tight bunch. Or thinks America is perfect just the way it is. Either way kind of sad.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    49. Re:Only a few left.... by Glendale2x · · Score: 1

      Eh, unless you're traveling with your laser printer or microwave, converters are mostly a thing of the past. All the stuff I normally travel with (cell phone, possibly laptop, camera chargers, anything electronic) already accept a universal input of 50/60Hz 100-240VAC. The real problem now is physically plugging them in.

      Resistive devices like a curling iron or hair dryer that don't have a 120/240 switch still need an adapter though.

      --
      this is my sig
    50. Re:Only a few left.... by ThatMegathronDude · · Score: 1

      Do you say "2011, August 5th"? English speech states the year last, and tends to have the month first.

    51. Re:Only a few left.... by arose · · Score: 1

      Numeral representation needn't follow how you say it.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    52. Re:Only a few left.... by arose · · Score: 1

      Shall we standardize our electrical plug shapes, too? If it's schuko I'll consider it.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    53. Re:Only a few left.... by lilomar · · Score: 1

      Yes... perhaps I did....

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    54. Re:Only a few left.... by zzatz · · Score: 2

      50Hz requires more iron in the core of power transformers than 60Hz. Similar effects apply to motors. Now that consumer electronics have switched to high frequency switching supplies, that's not much of an issue for the end user. It does still matter for the transformers used in the power grid to step down from higher distribution voltages to lower domestic voltages.

    55. Re:Only a few left.... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Printed in metric perhaps, but definitely not measured in metric, barring litre and two litre bottles. Unless there's some other good reason to use non-round numbers, like 355ml, other than the fact it lines up with a round imperial measurement, like 12 fluid ounces. Or 591ml bottles, which is 20 ounces. Or 710ml, which is 24 ounces.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    56. Re:Only a few left.... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Believe it or not, our date format was chosen at a time when there didn't exist machines that could alphabetize lists of dates automatically. I know it's shocking, you might want to sit down for awhile.

    57. Re:Only a few left.... by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      is there some clear advantage to 240v 50hz AC?

      Perhaps you could lower the total number of branch circuits by going to higher voltage, but I don't know how many people would really care that they have 1/3 fewer breakers.

      God, no. It's already bad enough that when I want to cut power to one room, I have to take out 2 other rooms with it. If anything, I want MORE breakers, even if they aren't electrically necessary

    58. Re:Only a few left.... by dakohli · · Score: 1

      Agreed. As a user I prefer 22:19 8 May 2011. It really reduces the ambiguity.
      In Military Messages we used a DTG (Date Time Group) which would be in this case: 082219 May 2011 which seemingly breaks all the rules.

    59. Re:Only a few left.... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Most any piece of line-operated electronic equipment is cheaper on 60 Hz than 50. Energy storage capacitors can be 17% smaller, and so can line-frequency transformers

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    60. Re:Only a few left.... by dakameleon · · Score: 1

      India & China already use metric, 240v 50Hz, and most other common units. What's your point?

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    61. Re:Only a few left.... by chunkyasparagus · · Score: 0

      "Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea..."

      Timezones? Where we're going, we don't NEED timezones.

    62. Re:Only a few left.... by Patch86 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      English speech states the year last, and tends to have the month first.

      Interestingly, not in countries which use the DD/MM/YYYY format. In the UK, it is quite uncommon to hear "May the 8th 2011", and far more common to hear "8th of May 2011".

      I've often wondered about that in a chicken-and-egg sort of way. Was it the American turn of phrase, with the month first, that led to the US MM/DD/YYYY annotation, or is it the fact that the MM/DD/YYYY annotation is a US standard that has led people to adopt that turn of phrase? And vice versa for the UK?

    63. Re:Only a few left.... by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      But, for the highest power devices in US homes (water heaters, clothes driers, ovens, etc) they are already on 240V.

      But those are (were, it differs and is changing) on 400V three phase here. As is industrial equipment, bigger motors, welders etc (some of which are not uncommon in home workshops). And you don't have that available. The "European" system is 230/400V, not just 230V.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    64. Re:Only a few left.... by moronoxyd · · Score: 2

      Ah, yes arrogance. Let me guess - you're from Europe? That's the only part of the world that has the arrogance to insist everyone else should live, act, and think exactly like they do. Woe to the person(s) who don't.

      I have to resist the urge to point out all the ways that Americans insist everyone else should live, act and think exactly as they do.

    65. Re:Only a few left.... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      That between them they represent a couple of billion people, so if anyone is going to change to accommodate others, [perhaps it should be the 300 million or so in the US.

    66. Re:Only a few left.... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      No. But if I'm looking for a component to fit my metric device, and there are offers from India, China, Japan and the US, All else being equal, I'll go for a country that speaks metric so I don't have to also invest in a bunch of imperial tools to maintain the thing.

      America is losing out in the export market.

    67. Re:Only a few left.... by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say it was uncommon to hear the month-first representation in speech in the UK, but to see it written down as MM/DD/YY is a complete mind-bender.

      What is uncommon is to hear "May nine, two thousand eleven", where the usual UK phrase would be "the ninth of May, two thousand and eleven". Americans seem to drop syllables all over the place.

      Also, Americans break their month-first rule by celebrating their Independence Day on the "fourth of July", instead of "July four".

    68. Re:Only a few left.... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2

      Incandescent lightbulbs are far to slow to flicker at that frequency (I can't believe they'd cool more than 10 degrees in the zero passing. It's just way to short) and CFL's have a electronic ballast which requires them to have a high frequency (about 5 KHz I believe). Large scale modern TL arrays (office) usually have an electronic ballast too (and thus are at a high frequency). Old small scale TL's do flicker at 50 Hz and can cause headaches.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    69. Re:Only a few left.... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Internally, though, you should just use POSIX time, which is universal and mostly easy to handle

      It is not possible to reliablly convert a future time from local time to universal time reliablly because you don't know what definition of local time will be in force. Therefore for all future dates (e.g. a scheduling application) you should really be storing the originally requested time and timezone (and whenever your timezone data changes you should re-run validation to check no new conflicts have been introduced). Not doing this will cause user confusion.

      Also note that POSIX time has a leap second issue. It is supposed to be tied to UTC which has leap seconds but posix time has no way of representing those so you get some kind of time jump or distortion arround them. This may be important if you need to accurately and reliablly handle times iarround midnight UTC (not sure what that maps to in american local time)

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    70. Re:Only a few left.... by kmdrtako · · Score: 1

      You're picking nits. What do you want, egg in your beer too? 354 ml is every bit as much a 'measure' of what's in the bottle as 16 fl. oz. is.

      There are two measurements on every box, can, and bottle: metric and US. Since at least the 70s, everyone has been taught the metric system in school. There are highway signs with both miles and kilometers; though perhaps not in Kansas. The speedometers in my cars have a KPH scale. The Buick my dad bought new in 1977, fricken 1977, was built with metric fasteners. Ditto for the Mercury he bought new nine years later.

      How much more do we need to do to be 'on the metric system'?

      There are, what, about 200 million Americans over the age of 16, who, despite all the above, are apparently happeier with US measurements? You think you're going to convince them to switch to something else? Overnight? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    71. Re:Only a few left.... by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      logical in this way: when i ask someone what date (no mention about the time) is it, it is most likely that i don't know the day, after that it is most likely that i don't know the month and in the very rare case i might not know the year either. so, my way of writing the date (or speaking it) gives the reader (or listener) the info that he most likely wants first, and then in decreasing order of likeliness. also, the date is not a long number, it is a set of three values. you cannot jumble up the insides of those values.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    72. Re:Only a few left.... by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      when i ask somebody the date i'm almost always asking it for the day, not month or year, which i usually know. so i find 8-5-11 much more logical than according to significance.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    73. Re:Only a few left.... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Why would I want to use a format created to suit things as they no longer exist?

    74. Re:Only a few left.... by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      You are educated stupid if you deny 4 equal 24-hour days per rotation of Earth. 96-hour Cubic Days debunk 1-day as witchcraft.

    75. Re:Only a few left.... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      354 ml is every bit as much a 'measure' of what's in the bottle as 16 fl. oz. is.

      There are two measurements on every box, can, and bottle: metric and US

      And which of those measurements is a number you can do math on (e.g. 591ml bottle, 460kJ per 250ml, how many kJ per bottle?) without a calculator/pen&paper? Granted, this is marketing manipulation, but unit games are what facilitates it.

      Since at least the 70s, everyone has been taught the metric system in school.

      To a questionable degree of completeness, judging by the number of people I talk to who can't grok that watt-seconds=joules and insist on assemblages like x per second per watt.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    76. Re:Only a few left.... by dj245 · · Score: 2

      But those are (were, it differs and is changing) on 400V three phase here. As is industrial equipment, bigger motors, welders etc (some of which are not uncommon in home workshops). And you don't have that available. The "European" system is 230/400V, not just 230V.

      Actually, 277/480V is quite common in the states for commercial and industrial uses. You can get it in your house too if you are willing to pay for it, but most people are not since there isn't any compelling reason to do so. The monthly service fees for the 480V hookup far exceed the cost of the extra copper that is required for the lower voltage cable.

      Keep in mind that electricity in the states is commonly distributed at 14.4kV and 120/240V is just the voltage you get after it has been converted by the step-down "pig pole" transformer on the neighborhood telephone pole. 120/240V is a convenient standard for home users the same way that 277/480 is a convenient standard for commercial and industrial customers. If you need something special and are willing to pay, the electric utility is more than happy to work with you and bill you accordingly.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    77. Re:Only a few left.... by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      Didn't know the details of that. You learn something every day. Yes, in northern Europe three phase 400V/230V is the most common subscriber hook up. I have it to my house, with 20A fuses I pay $300 a year in service fees. (I could probably get by with 16A easily, as there is no electric heating anymore, but I haven't bothered to have the meter fuses downgraded).

      And we do transformers here also. We just don't put them on poles... :-) I have only something like 30 meters of underground cable to my substation. (They typically service a couple of houses). The feed to that is typically 10kV though it differs by country.

      Single phase supplies (like yours but with only one voltage) are getting more common in southern Europe though, for no really good reason.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  6. Slight delay here? by vlm · · Score: 1

    Over two days beginning Monday, May 31, 1886, the railroad network in the southern United States was converted

    Isn't that something like 21 years after they lost "The War of Northern Aggression" known by Ken Burns and the yankees as "The Civil War"?

    Give me 21 years to pre-plan and pre-position supplies and workers and I can probably pull 11500 miles of CAT-5 in 2 days.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Slight delay here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When I took history in Alabama it was "The war between the states".

    2. Re:Slight delay here? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

      I suspect that one General Sherman's er... enthusiastic removal of southern legacy hardware really helped speed up the transition. He did have a real air of resolve when it came to dealing with insurgents.

    3. Re:Slight delay here? by Ossifer · · Score: 0

      In New York we called it "The War To Put Down The Hicks".

      And no, you didn't have 21 years to plan. The decision wasn't made in Appomattox Court House. And you'll have to pull your Cat 5 after General Sherman destroys your cities, towns, homes, and economy.

      And then, after all that, you'll find we're not using Cat 5 any more in the developed world you live next door to...

    4. Re:Slight delay here? by moortak · · Score: 1

      Damn those Northerners for firing on Fort Sumter.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    5. Re:Slight delay here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sherman was a war criminal. He should have hung...

    6. Re:Slight delay here? by Nimey · · Score: 2

      Sherman did what was necessary to end the war sooner. Tearing up the South's rail net, as these things go, was no atrocity.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    7. Re:Slight delay here? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Eh, those were just illegal enemy combatants, hardly to be afforded the protections of the Geneva convention that hadn't been written yet. Whatever was necessary to drag Jefferson Davis out of his spider hole, and all that. 4/11/61! Never Forget!

    8. Re:Slight delay here? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you lived in New York at the time, you probably called it the War The Damned New Englanders Had To Fight That Dried Up My Cotton Supply. New York was a hotbed of pro-Southern sentiment, for commercial reasons.

    9. Re:Slight delay here? by Duradin · · Score: 2

      Great, first Truthers, then Birthers, then Deathers and now Sumterers.

    10. Re:Slight delay here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Americans and geographic knowledge, oh-oh.
      Mongolia uses Russian gauge, as it was the Russians who built the first lines here.
      The jacks in the long shed are at the Chinese border-point in Zamin-Uud/Erlian.
      And the game of choosing gauges for national interest is still not over, this is how it is being played here;
      Currently coal, copper and gold-mines are under development in the Mongolian Gobi, big stuff, requiring more rail.
      China will buy anything mined here, on it's northern doorstep.
      A hotly debated decision was made by the Mongolian Government to expand the existing network (basically one single-track North-South-line) with a 1200 km lateral line, in Russian gauge, in stead of two relatively short 100 km-hop to the closest Mongolian/Chinese border-points, to which the Chinese have their tracks already laid.
      These small pieces may be laid AFTER the wide-gauge-line is ready, says the plan.
      The decision is momentous insofar that it means that Chinese coal buyers will not be able to send their rail-cars into Mongolia to load, but will have to wait for their turns at the (completely congested) Mongolian-controlled border, the one with the jacks.
      By this way Mongolia will attempt to be more independent in the choice of customers for it's export, by being able to rail to Vladiwostok, to sell overseas.
      (for the Americans, Mongolia has only two neighbouring countries/just like the continental USA by the way)
      It also means that coal from the world's biggest coal-mine-in-development will be trucked over unpaved desert-roads to the border (100 miles) for the years to come, a local social and ecological disaster in the making.
      Up to 1000 trucks a day.
      To make more iPads!

    11. Re:Slight delay here? by Ossifer · · Score: 1

      How old do you think I am?

    12. Re:Slight delay here? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Hey, you're the one who said that's what you called it in NY...

  7. What about curves? by AmericanBlarney · · Score: 1

    It seems like any time there was a curved track section, it wouldn't work to just move it in 3 inches since the old piece would be to long or too short (depending on which way the curve was going). Not sure exactly how frequent this is, but I would think there would be quite a few to replace in 11,000+ miles of track. That would actually be interesting to me since you would have to have all the new pieces ready and on site (since you couldn't move them with the track torn up) waiting for that day.

    1. Re:What about curves? by vlm · · Score: 1

      Ah that's relatively easy. A harder problem is adjusting the radii of all those curves. The hardest part is stretching all the bridges, tunnels, and viaducts 3 inches wider. And X crossings. Even station platforms might have to be moved...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:What about curves? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The radii of the curves remain the same for the most part (railroad curves are very gentle by design, 90 mm just isn't that much).

      Bridges, tunnels and viaducts don't need to be stretched wider, because the conversion was from 5-feet to 4-feet-8.5.

      Crossings were mostly across dirt roads in those days, not a big deal.

      Finally, there were no station "platforms" as such. Passengers had to board trains by climbing up stairs on each carriage. No level platforms, and no gaps to mind either.

    3. Re:What about curves? by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      The ties "float" on a gravel bed. Watch a train up close as it goes by, the ties move up and down.

      I'm sure any differences in length can be sorted out by the ties being moved slightly, making the curves a little different than before.

  8. In other news by hoytak · · Score: 1

    "This month ends with the -125th anniversary of one of the most remarkable achievements in the technology future. Over two days beginning Monday, May 31, 2136, the gui manager for the linux desktop was converted from the old-earth version one to one compatible with the slightly narrower one used in the space federation. The shift was meticulously planned and executed. It required one side of every gui to be moved three inches closer to the other. All font sets had to be adjusted as well. Some minor animations and rolling stock were sensibly deferred until later, but by Wednesday, the 11,500 megaline code base was back in business and able to exchange screenshots with the rest of the world. Other operating systems are still struggling with incompatible interfaces. MicrApple still has two. Most of the solar system runs linux, but the outer planets use essentially the same gui gauge as old earth and CmdrTaco and timothy use an even broader gui size. Alpha centari has a multi-year Project Unigui, aimed at converting its narrow gui lines to the federation's five foot six inch standard."

    --
    Does having a witty signature really indicate normality?
    1. Re:In other news by j-beda · · Score: 1

      If they are still using inches for anything in 2136 other than nostalgia in the "space federation" then they are doing something wrong.

  9. Re:as Great Great Great Stephen P. Jobs the 1st sa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Standard Gauge is NOT 4ft 9in.
    IT IS Frigging 4ft 8.5in. OK.

  10. surprised slashdot is bringing this up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Outside of rail circles, this is the FIRST time I have heard the Great Gauge Change mentioned. I am quite shocked really.

  11. There is only one true BROAD GAUGE by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 1, Troll

    and that is the 7ft 0.25in of Brunel's GWR.
    anything else is just a sham.

    --
    I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
    1. Re:There is only one true BROAD GAUGE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody's a railfan...

    2. Re:There is only one true BROAD GAUGE by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      and that is the 7ft 0.25in of Brunel's GWR. anything else is just a sham.

      You know, it doesn't quite capture the larger-than-life, cigar-smoking awesomeness unless you say it in full: Isambard Kingdom Brunel's Great Western Railway.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    3. Re:There is only one true BROAD GAUGE by Noughmad · · Score: 4, Funny

      Because nothing says "awesome" like being named "Kingdom". Until somebody trades you for a horse.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
  12. John C. Gault? by adenied · · Score: 1

    Is it just me or is it a little amusing that the guy who was telling them that the 4 ft. 9 in. gauge wasn't necessarily a good idea was named John C. Gault?

    I wonder if Ayn Rand had any idea.

  13. Time for the next big step. by Fuzzums · · Score: 0

    Convert them all from feet to centimeters :)

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:Time for the next big step. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you want insects on your feet?

    2. Re:Time for the next big step. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Already done. The official width for the standard gauge is 1435 mm.

    3. Re:Time for the next big step. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I know you're joking, but there isn't any particular reason for us to convert. And that's really the biggest hindrance to us doing so. There are a few areas like science and inter-operating with other countries where converting would be useful, but the reality is that for most things it's just not that helpful. And we tend to do a lot of things, like cooking, with fractions rather than decimals.

      More than that, I don't see an undertaking that substantial to be worth the cost and confusion in the middle.

    4. Re:Time for the next big step. by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I know he's joking too, but all that Europe did to "convert" was say "it's now 1435mm". Assuming all the European (and Canadian?) rail wagon/infrastructure manufacturers already use metric -- and I know they do in the UK -- I wouldn't be surprised if some in the US were anyway.

  14. Rail is best for heavy freight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Railroad's advantage is in lower friction than rubber tire on cement. That is maximized with slow freight railroads, which the United States has among the best in the world. Most of the energy losses at ~200 mph, are aerodynamic, not friction. Rail does not help there.

    Also, high speed transport, including all air transportation, is a fraction of the boring highways. Less than 1 percent of freight travels by air. High speed transportation is more of a luxury. I thus think it is quite logical for the United States not to have high speed rail.

    1. Re:Rail is best for heavy freight by Sique · · Score: 4, Informative

      Most of the energy losses at ~200 mph, are aerodynamic, not friction. Rail does not help there.

      Even here Rail helps. If you have a 1600 passenger train half full, you have only one front with air friction per 800 passengers. With cars seated two each you need already 400 fronts where each one creates its own air friction. So even the most aerodynamically perfect cars wont come close to a single train even with no consideration going into air friction.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:Rail is best for heavy freight by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Actually, rail's main advantage in terms of efficiency is being able to travel at a mostly constant speed with fewer slowdowns and stops. Overland freight trucks could be significantly more efficient if they had a dedicated road system with centralized traffic management and they could travel at pretty much the same speed throughout. They still wouldn't approach the efficiency of a train for reasons you've touched on, but the efficiency could be improved greatly.

    3. Re:Rail is best for heavy freight by zevans · · Score: 1

      This morning I was sitting on a bus thinking there was little point in introducing a hybrid given that the driver was totally incapable of driving smoothly. This was not because of the prevailing road conditions; it was down to a total lack of awareness around how and why to ANTICIPATE. I seriously wonder how many tons of carbon London could save if drivers were retrained. This would also cut the number of injuries to standing passengers radically.

      --
      "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
    4. Re:Rail is best for heavy freight by operagost · · Score: 1

      Actually, I believe a hybrid would still help, because an electric motor uses no power to idle and regenerative braking can recharge the batteries. Obviously, overall efficiency is much greater with smoother driving.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  15. HO GUAGE FOR ME, THANK YOU VERY MUCH !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anything bigger and I just can fit it in the basement !!

    Or I'd have to dig up the bodies !!

  16. Victories of Standardization by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

    Now let's see this applied to the Japanese grid (60/50Hz split).

    1. Re:Victories of Standardization by Nexx · · Score: 1

      That would be awesome, but let's standardize to the 60Hz, not 50 as it's in the eastern part.

  17. How did they do it? by hawguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How did they get the work done on time? How many people were involved?

    11,500 miles/track is around 32 million railroad spikes that have to be pulled and respiked in the new location. If it takes one person 20 seconds to pull a spike and rehammer it in, it would take a crew of 16,000 people working 16 hour shifts to do the work in 3 days. And this is only the guys that are doing the spiking, it ignores the thousands of others that would be involved in moving (and lengthening/shorting curved sections when necessary) the rails, altering the running stock gauge and handling the supply logistics for materials, food, water, housing, etc for these large teams. So maybe 20,000 - 25,000 workers were involved?

    1. Re:How did they do it? by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      I would imagine there's more to it than moving spikes: the spikes are ~1 inch thick (I think) so having them ~2 inches away from the old hole in the sleeper might not be such a good idea. I'm curious, did they need to replace the sleepers too?

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    2. Re:How did they do it? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      The bulk of the Southern Railroad net was damaged or destroyed by the War, so likely they started the rebuilding during the Reconstruction around fall of 1865 or spring of 1866, there were large numbers of demobbed soldiers and freed slaves for a work force.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_railroads_in_the_American_Civil_War

    3. Re:How did they do it? by DrNoNo · · Score: 1

      I am guessing, but I think it was a long time in preparation. With the UK broad gauge, the difference in gauges was large enough that track could be laid in mixed gauge, so the actual changeover could be years of dual gauge operation. For the Southern US, the gauges were too close to permit mixed gauge, I would think. An easy way to do a quick change would be to spike the sleepers [US = ties] on one side only left and right on alternate sleepers when laying track to the broader gauge. Gauge would be held by stretcher bars every few sleepers. On changeover day, the stretcher bars could be taken out and the left and right rails complete with sleepers slewed together and the unspiked sides of the sleepers spiked to the new gauge.

    4. Re:How did they do it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here's what's written in a history of the Illinois Central Railroad. Note that this re-gauging, On Friday, July 29, 1881, predates the one mentioned in the summary by several years.

      "Most railroads in Illinois conformed to the Illinois Central gauge of four feet eight and one-half inches, commonly known as the English, or standard, gauge. But in the South the gauge of nearly all railroads...was five feet.

      "Owing to the difference of three and one-half inches between the gauges at the Ohio River, sleeping cars, passenger cars, passenger coaches, baggage cars, and the freight cars employed in service from the completion of the rail route in 1873 were designed and fitted so that cars could be run over specially constructed dual gauge tracks at Cairo, jacked up and converted from standard to wide gauge, or vice versa, by removing one set of trucks and installing another on each trip.

      "In the spring of 1881, Clarke, having obtained authority to undertake the conversion, announced a plan which was without precedent in the history of American railroading -- a plan to change the gauge of the entire 550-mile line between East Cairo and New Orleans in the same day -- in fact, within a few hours! This was the first Southern railroad east of the Mississippi River and one of the first in the entire country to change from wide to standard gauge..." ...

      "To complete the herculean task, more than 3,000 men were distributed along the line. The work began as soon as it was light enough to see, and by 3 o'clock in the afternoon, every rail had been spiked into place in what the Railroad Gazette described as the 'the greatest feat ever accomplished in gauge changing!'

      "Describing the methods employed, the Gazette said:
      'The west rail was moved inward 3-1/2 inches. All the spikes on the inside of rails to be changed had already been drawn, except the spike in every fourth tie on the straight lines and every third tie on curves. Spikes for the new gauge were already driven in every fourth tie and third. All necessary spikes were distributed on the ends of the ties into which they were to be driven. Each section foreman was furnished with a narrow-gauge hand-car and a full set of tools." ...

      "Clarke's feat was hailed as a "truly wonderful achievement," and in 1884-1886 when other Southern railroads began to lay plans for converting their lines to standard gauge, the leaned heavily on his instructions and experience."

      Source:
      Main Line of Mid-America
      The Story of The Illinois Central Railroad
      Carlton J. Corliss
      Creative Age Press
      1950

    5. Re:How did they do it? by Confusador · · Score: 1

      If it were me, I would at least look into the possibility of simply filling the old hole. Leaving it empty would obviously be a bad idea, but I'll bet that if you just plugged it you'd still have enough strength.

    6. Re:How did they do it? by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Unions? Nope.
      Cheap Irish labor? YES!

    7. Re:How did they do it? by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      Not a train buff by any means, but this made me think of when our Great Western Railway in the UK was switched from Brunel's 7ft broad gauge to standard gauge (I can remember as a kid my dad showing me sections of track that still had the broad gauge sleepers); it being one of the busiest railways in the world at the time I wondered how they actually got it all done. Turns out they managed to replace 177 miles of track *in a single weekend*.

      At daybreak on Saturday 21 May 1892 over 4,200 platelayers and gangers were assembled along the line ready for the task. All broad gauge rolling stock and non-essential engines had been worked to Swindon, whereby at mid-day on Saturday 15 miles of specially prepared temporary sidings were filled with such a collection of rolling stock and locomotives as will never be seen again.

      The conversion was planned to be completed by 4.4 am. on Monday 23 May and it was! This is shown by the fact that the Night Mail from Paddington to Plymouth on the Sunday had been booked, in the instruction issued on 30 April, to proceed from Plymouth North Road to Penzance at that time, which it duly did.

      Thus in less than two days 177 route miles of main line were converted from broad to narrow gauge with the minimum of interruption to traffic.

      http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/RailSteam/GWRBroadG/BGHist.html

      I wasn't aware of the gauge shift in the US but reading about it now... utterly staggering amounts of planning and manpower for a tiny 2 day window. It's the sort of project that just wouldn't happen any more, and certainly a testament to what was perhaps the high point in an era of "big engineering". Especially laughable when you consider the frequently lamentable services the UK trains offer today where rail replacement or upgrades will frequently run on for months or years.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    8. Re:How did they do it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did they get the work done on time? How many people were involved?

      11,500 miles/track is around 32 million railroad spikes that have to be pulled and respiked in the new location. If it takes one person 20 seconds to pull a spike and rehammer it in, it would take a crew of 16,000 people working 16 hour shifts to do the work in 3 days. And this is only the guys that are doing the spiking, it ignores the thousands of others that would be involved in moving (and lengthening/shorting curved sections when necessary) the rails, altering the running stock gauge and handling the supply logistics for materials, food, water, housing, etc for these large teams. So maybe 20,000 - 25,000 workers were involved?

      You forgot that those 16,000 people would be working in parallel. Using your numbers:

      Each person would have to pull 2000 spikes (32e6 spikes/16,000 people = 2000 spikes/person). At 20 seconds per spike, it would take each person 40,000 seconds to complete his task, which is just over 11 hours.

  18. Metric system, anyone ? by dascritch · · Score: 0

    meters meters meters

    --
    (Sorry my bad French) Je fais parler les Guignols de l'Info. Le pied, quoi.
    1. Re:Metric system, anyone ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US we'll wait until the UK switches to kilometers (which will probably happen when you no longer order beer in pints)...

    2. Re:Metric system, anyone ? by dohzer · · Score: 1

      So we should change our meters to read in metREs?

    3. Re:Metric system, anyone ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the old days, people used inches for this kind of thing, because metric hadn't been invented. Being human, they chose round numbers. So railway gauges are nice round numbers of feet & inches, or horrible fractions in metric.

      So people still talk about railway gauges in feet, and this is completely rational.

  19. Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by calidoscope · · Score: 2

    I'd like to know which country has an electric grid that makes the US grid look primitive. Japan still has the 50/60Hz split, the US grid has been 60Hz only since 1948 (albeit there are remnants of 25HZ systems for railway/electrochemical use). Haven't heard anything about Europe that makes it superior to the US. China might have an edge due to the newness of their infrastructure.

    --
    A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    1. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is primitive. Not necessarily that it needs to be compared to anything...most countries have grids that could stand improvement.

      The US grid is actually 3 individual grids. East, West, and Texas. Makes some sense as the Rockies divide east and west. But I'm not sure why Texas is on their own.

    2. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      Actually five grids.

      Two major, three minor.

      Western Interconnection and Eastern Interconnection are the two major, the three minor interconnections are the Québec Interconnection, the Texas Interconnection, and the Alaska Interconnection.

      Western and Eastern currently have six DC connections and a giant connection is being built between Texas, Eastern and Western - Tres Amigas SuperStation was announced to connect the Eastern, Western and Texas Interconnections via three 5 GW superconductor link

    3. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Maybe it's the piss poor domestic voltage (110V P-E) that necessitates using 2 phase supplies for domestic electric heating, the occasional domestic installations rated for 50 amps (5.5kW) and the un-earthed non-polarised plug / sockets? Or maybe it's just the yearly summer rolling blackouts?

      Coming from a country where you can run a 3kW power-tool from a single phase domestic plug / socket combo, then when your done quickly boil water in an electric tea kettle to make a nice hot drink, and at the end of the day wash yourself clean in a 10kW electric shower I can say that the US domestic supply at least looks pretty fucking dismal.

    4. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is, indeed, quite a shame that us Americans haven't had two good continent-wide wars to give us pause to say "shit, we may as well tear down what's left and start over with 240 volts."

      I can say that the US domestic supply at least looks pretty fucking dismal.

      Translation: "Rah rah rah, I'm going to froth at the mouth in anti-American smugness, without even considering the shameful backstory on my region's fancy grid."

    5. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by kmdrtako · · Score: 5, Informative

      Maybe it's the piss poor domestic voltage (110V P-E) that necessitates using 2 phase supplies for domestic electric heating, the occasional domestic installations rated for 50 amps (5.5kW) and the un-earthed non-polarised plug / sockets? Or maybe it's just the yearly summer rolling blackouts?

      Coming from a country where you can run a 3kW power-tool from a single phase domestic plug / socket combo, then when your done quickly boil water in an electric tea kettle to make a nice hot drink, and at the end of the day wash yourself clean in a 10kW electric shower I can say that the US domestic supply at least looks pretty fucking dismal.

      110V domestic voltage? Ungrounded, non-polarized plugs? 50A service? Are you referring to North America? If so, you're woefully misinformed, or ignorant, or both. With minor exceptions domestic service is 220V split phase. While most things in American households run on 110V (one half or the other of the 220V split phase) electric appliances like water heaters, stoves, ovens, and clothes dryers, run on 220V. Current building codes require grounded, polarized outlets, and the only place you find ungrounded, unpolarized outlets are old buildings that haven't been upgraded. Most new construction gets 200A service, and like the outlets, the only place you find mere 50A or 100A service is in older homes that haven't upgraded their service.

      And I shower with water, not electricity. ;-)

    6. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Your.Master · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Translation:

      Oh my god, I can't stand ANYTHING about my country not being the best out of all the countries ever; I'd better come up with some excuse to get defensive and turn it into a bad thing about the other countries so mine is best again!

      Yes, there are reasons Europe's grid is better. That doesn't mean it's not...better. The GP was arguing that it wasn't better.

      Seriously, not everything is about your smug sense of nationalistic superiority. You didn't design the fucking grid; what's it to you anyway if somebody says it's bad? Fix it, or accept that it's bad but you're going to focus on other things. Don't pretend that it's a good thing because Hitler. Or some damn thing.

    7. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll notice I wrote 110v(P-E) as in phase to earth, the hilarious American "split-phase" system is merely a testimony to how poor your domestic supply.

      It's hard to jingoism your way around facts, but you still made a good go of it.

    8. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by kmdrtako · · Score: 1

      It's hard to jingoism your way around facts, but you still made a good go of it.

      Jingoism? Clearly, you're as ignorant about what jingoism is as you are ignorant about ungrounded, unpolarized outlets and 50A service. Nearly illiterate too. "...hard to jingoism your way around facts..." I can barely parse that.

      That's okay, coming from an eurotrash AC, I wasn't taking you too seriously in the first place.

    9. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've already stated yourself that 50 amp services and unpolarised ungrounded plugs are "at large" in the field, and your domestic supply is undeniably 110v phase to earth. So as far as your concerned everything I said in my original post was true?

      With that settled this "eurotrash" AC has got some electricity to go and enjoy in the form of a nice hot cup of tea.

    10. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I grew up in the UK and the only power outage we had was caused by striking workers. We lit candles.
      I've lived in large cities in the USA east coast/west coast and in the middle and there are *always* power outages. Now I'm at a large remote facility we rely on diesel generators because power can be out for several days.

      Electric wires strung up on poles leaning over a funny angles the length and breadth of the country just waiting for an errant branch to have to burn off with reclosers, ya, I call that primitive. Bury the stuff and be done with it.

    11. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by schnikies79 · · Score: 1

      You will hard pressed to find 110v at any outlet. Most utilities have raised the voltage to ~120v. Myself, in the midwest, have not had a power outage lasting more than a couple minutes in at least a decade. The California power problems are not repesentative of the U.S.

      --
      Gone!
    12. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to know which country has an electric grid that makes the US grid look primitive. Japan still has the 50/60Hz split, the US grid has been 60Hz only since 1948 (albeit there are remnants of 25HZ systems for railway/electrochemical use). Haven't heard anything about Europe that makes it superior to the US. China might have an edge due to the newness of their infrastructure.

      Probably Sweden or Finland or one of those viking countries. They always seem to be up to something better than anyone else..

    13. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I'm no expert, but I do remember that during the Enron brown-outs in Southern California, states just to the north with plentiful energy supplies couldn't sell power to California because the power line capacity didn't exist to carry it... instead, California had to buy power from Mexico. (Which, you know, isn't a big deal, but it's a little embarrassing.)

      Of course, learning later on that the whole thing was basically fabricated, maybe that story was fabricated as well.

    14. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So cute! Have you even read my post? Or are you just blindly defending the anti-American rants?

      I think it is clear from what I wrote that, had we had the fortune to deploy our power grid from scratch commencing 1945, we would have had something better than a grid that has been built up since 1895.

      You get an F for reading, and a bonus F for the imaginary Goodwin.

    15. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      The original topic was the power grid, not residential wiring standards. As far as I know, the US grid has far more high voltage AC lines (i.e. 765kV and above) and HVDC lines than Europe.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    16. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of Europe grids are 220 V which is a vast improvement. They are also far far far more reliable than the american grid. In switzerland you don't lose electirc power untill something drastic happens, and compared to the american grid it's far less 'noisy' (variability in voltage, etc.)

    17. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Patch86 · · Score: 2

      Almost all major Western countries are suffering the same problem. Just because they're all equipped with the same primitive grid systems, it doesn't make it any less of a problem.

      The grids as they stand were mostly designed 60 years to a century ago, principally for powering a few factories and keeping the street lights on. They just aren't designed for handling the intermittent power generation from renewables like wind or solar, or dealing with the intense surges that come of quickly charging large battery cells (al a electric cars).

    18. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by moronoxyd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think it is clear from what I wrote that, had we had the fortune to deploy our power grid from scratch commencing 1945

      Europe had to rebuild much of it's infrastructure in the 20th century, in some areas twice, which cost's a lot of money and time, and still we managed.

      What's your excuse for not getting your system up to date?
      You didn't have the same drawbacks that we did.

      GP is right: You are one of those people that take any factual statement as a personal insult and lash out.

    19. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      I was about to say that in Scotland, we used to suffer power cuts every time there was any significant snowfall due to the snow weighing down the power lines. In 2001 we had snowfall in my area that was probably about as bad as the last couple of winters have been nationally, and the power was out for about three days.

      Having said that, in the past two years we've had two severe (in UK terms) winters and never suffered a single power cut, so I guess things are improving.

    20. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2

      I have been hearing people complain about the stability of outlet voltage in CFL topics for as long as these bulbs exists. One comment said something like: "These CFL lights don't reach their long life in real world applications. Maybe with the perfect outlets in test labs but not with the varying voltage in real life."
      I have never seen the voltage on my outlets vary, except for an occasional complete fail (due to a tripped fuse or something). My CFL bulbs seem to have the expected lifetime. I live in the Netherlands.
      This is where I get the idea that the US power grid sucks donkey balls.
      Here in Nijmegen is a company called Smit Transformatoren. I had a job interview there a while back, they told me most of the large transformers in the US were outdated, under powered and poorly maintained.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    21. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      In France, whenever a line go down like that we rebuild it underground. It has been going on for decades, and now most power lines are underground. No storm issues anymore, but when something goes wrong, it's a heck of a problem ;-)

    22. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it works? It isn't perfect, and there is the "Tommy Edison's light from the 19th century needs to still work" aspect, but in spite of its problems the power grid, at least in the Boston area, is fairly darn good in spite of its age.

      You want to talk about the advantages of 240 volts at the outlet, I am all ears (I'd support that). You want to talk about the advantages of 50 Hz, I will listen (but 60 Hz has some small pluses over 50 Hz, as outlined elsewhere). You want to talk about undergrounding, I will be interested (I support it, but current research indicates that undergrounding is a wash in terms of reliability). Metric system? Guess what, I already decided on my own to start working internally in metric.

      But if the substance of your argument is "America sucks" then I will shoot you down. Because it is non-productive, ignorant and inflammatory. Tell me, is that wrong?

    23. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by minorproblem · · Score: 1
    24. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      well, Canada for one. Because of the cold climate, Canada buries most of its power and other lines. Apart from the high reliability, the result is that residential neighborhoods look much better. After seeing this, come back to the US, with its ugly, leaning, and vulnerable poles, and you think you're headed back in time. The power grid in the US looks a lot more like a third-world country than it does like a modern one. The reliability isn't that great either.

    25. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by David+Chappell · · Score: 3, Informative

      You'll notice I wrote 110v(P-E) as in phase to earth, the hilarious American "split-phase" system is merely a testimony to how poor your domestic supply.

      It's hard to jingoism your way around facts, but you still made a good go of it.

      It is true that in the US we use the three wire Edison system and that it does have 110v to earth while in much of Europe they use straight 220v with one side earthed. But exactly how the transformer secondary is earthed does not change the amount of available power. The Edison system simply makes it possible to easily have both 220v and 110v in the same building.

      Your statement that the US system "necessitates the use of 2-phase supplies for domestic heating" is true, but I do not see how this is a disadvantage. All you are saying is that one must connect the two supply conductors of a large electric heater to the proper terminals in the service panel so that it will receive 220v. So what?

      (Aside to US electricians: I know that in your trade split 110v/220v supply is considered single phase. The poster is calling it two-phase because the two hot wires are 180 degrees out of phase. If we were to use strictly consistent terminology, the very old 110 volt only service has a single phase 110 volts from neutral, almost all houses now have two phases 180 degrees apart at 110 volts from neutral, and many office buildings have three phases 120 degrees apart, often at 110 volts with respect to neutral.)

      As other posters have pointed out, you are wrong about water heaters. Only the very smallest are ever connected to a 110 volt supply. You are correct in your statements about electric tea kettles and power tools. Since almost all outlets in the typical American home are wired between one of the phases and the neutral, they can only deliver about 1500 watts.

      I suspect that the justification for the Edison system is that 110 volts is less dangerous than 220 volts. This system provides a (supposedly) safer 110 volts for most plug-connected devices while still making 220 volts available for those things that need it.

      In other words, your complaint is not with the US electrical distribution network, but with the fact that 110 volt outlets predominate in the US home.

      I believe the biggest disadvantages of the US system are that it requires wires twice as thick and that many appliances (such as air conditioners) that should be running on 220 volts run on 110 volts because the manufactures know that few users would buy them if they had to install a 220 volt outlet in order to use them.

      Finally, yes, there are 50 amp 220 volt/110 volt service panels still out there. At least in New England they are now very rare. 60 amp was standard in the 1960's and nothing less than 100 amp is installed today.

    26. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by cavreader · · Score: 0

      How about the excuse of having to pay for the rebuilding of your infrastructure as well as providing protection it for 50 years to make sure you didn't destroy yourself for a 3rd time.

    27. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a truly miserable cretin like yourself who responds to correction with smug denial. How is one so comfortable in his purposeful ignorance?

    28. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by operagost · · Score: 1

      That is a movement I wish we would adopt in the USA. I would think the initial expense would pay off for the power distributor in the long run.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    29. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Texas has their own so that Californai can't ruin it, and New York can't ruin it, and the power stays on! OK, so a bit of that arrogance was deflated a few years back when Houston had a rolling blackout due to silly maintenance decisions (protip: don't take all backups down for maintenace simultaneously), but that's the reason - and Texas does amazingly well with their deregulated system.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    30. Re:Electric grid primitive? Compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people complaining about the lifespan of CFLs are probably not leaving them on for at least 15 minutes and are probably turning them on/off like they would normal bulbs.

  20. At the risk of invoking Godwin by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Informative

    The fact that the old Soviet trains ran on a non-standard gauge was a contributing factor to the survival of the Soviet Union from the German blitzkrieg. Germany was not able to immediately use the Soviet rail system to reinforce and supply its troops, and was faced with having to use a few captured locomotives while re-engineering the Soviet rail system to accommodate German trains. Because of this most of the supplies needed by the army had to be shipped by road, except there are a few months out of the year when Russian roads turned into rivers of mud...

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by dbc · · Score: 1

      Except that if memory serves correctly... the German army assembled a work train of well trained track layers as part of an invasion force and converted a strategic section of the Soviet rails over to German standards.

    2. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, they did. But it took *time*, and they couldn't do everything. The German railroad units mostly concentrated on advancing maybe half-a-dozen railheads for the entire Eastern Front. By the time winter started in 1941, advancing German forces had completely outrun the slowly reconstructed railways and were in considerable supply difficulties because of that.

    3. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maintaining a non-compatible standard always tends to favor the incumbent in power, sometimes this can be beneficial, sometimes not.

    4. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Memory serves only the young and the sober, of which, I am neither. Citation please?

    5. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite correct. At least not correct that it was a major factor. Russia didn't have much infrastructure, be it rail or road. It was the poor and lacking infrastructure, not its incompatibility, that was the problem.

      Many argued that Russians had a major leadership problem allowing Germans to advance as much as they did. Russians only started to counter German invasion after Stalin rescinded his direct involvement in planning. And at any time when he started to micromanage, soviets suffered major setbacks.

    6. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Agreed, which is why I said it was a contributing factor - but by no means did I want to imply it was the only factor.

      I've also read the argument about Stalin being a terrible general and that Soviet troops were used in an incompetent manner, however I'm not convinced that this was the cause of the deep penetration. After all, this was the army that had pushed both French and British heavy tanks back in Fall Gelb - and at least the British, if not the French, had leadership far more competent than Stalin. I think it was a combination of tactical surprise (even the Germans were amazed at how much daily progress their own spearheads were making), incredibly superior German morale, the far superior Luftwaffe (despite being decimated in Sept 1940 it was better than what was currently available in the USSR) and the Soviet's inability to fight a maneuver war.

      When the T-34 became available in significant numbers and the Soviets were able to fight a mobile war with better firepower, it became a matter of numbers and time.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by jkmartin · · Score: 1

      I read something interesting the other day about the T-34 and the tank the Germans designed to counter it (the Panther). In 1943 the T-34 cost $25,470 to build and the Panther cost $51,600. That's not really surprising. What is surprising is that the T-34 took 3,000 man hours to build while the Panther took 55,000. Tigers seem to at least double the Panther on both cost and hours.

      German tanks were horribly unreliable, heavy, underpowered, and even used gasoline engines. They did have great guns, optics, and armor; but given the choice between 18 T-34s and 1 Panther I'm taking the T-34s.

    8. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      When the T-34 became available in significant numbers and the Soviets were able to fight a mobile war with better firepower, it became a matter of numbers and time.

      When the USSR got enough Lend-Lease trucks from the USA/Canada/UK (Yes, Canada supplied trucks to the USSR) to actually supply those T-34's, it became just a matter of time.

      T-34 was an amazing tank. Well, except for the Commander having to lay the gun instead of command. And the hatch that made any commander trying to actually command a sitting duck for any German with a rifle. And the lack of a radio in 9/10 of the tanks.

      But it's not what allowed the Soviet mechanized war to really take off. What did that was the same thing that the USA/UK/Germany needed - trucks to haul food/ammo/fuel forward as fast as it was being used up by the millions of soldiers and thousands of tanks/guns/etc.

      Remember the Red Ball Express - 6000+ 2.5t trucks running back and forth from Normandy to the 3rd Army daily could just barely keep up with that one Army's demands for supplies. And when those supplies dried up after the diversion to Market-Garden, the 3rd Army basically stalled for a few months till sufficient inventory of supplies could be built back up again for more offensive operations.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:At the risk of invoking Godwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC, a similar track conversion task was done by the North during the Civil war as areas were captured. The South had used several different track widths, but where the Union army moved, the tracks were changed to standard gauge so supply trains could follow. This wasn't done everywhere until a few decades later.

  21. Why the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those now living in a modern peaceful and standardised regions of the world, should not forget how having different rail systems would be an excellent tactical choice during war times, as an invading country could not directly and effectively make use of the invaded host's rail system to move troops, equipment and supplies.

  22. Compared to what's possible/needed by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd like to know which country has an electric grid that makes the US grid look primitive.

    I don't think it's so much that the US grid is primitive compared to other countries. Rather it is primitive compared with the available technology and projected needs. The monitoring and control equipment on much of the grid remains rather primitive, the wire infrastructure is fragile (major outages every time a serious storm blows through), many areas still depend on sending a person out to read the meter for billing, there is a too much interdependence without adequate safeguards, local generation (solar, wind, etc) remains problematic in many places, generation sources are relatively dirty, usage controls are primitive, etc. Most of our infrastructure was built decades ago and (IMO) too little was allocated for ongoing upgrades nor were the increases in demand adequately planned for.

    The grid works but it's not nearly as robust, efficient or clean as it could be. That's the problem.

    1. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is well understood, to see some of the current (ha!) information on the sublect: http://smartgrid.ieee.org/

    2. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by hedwards · · Score: 2

      That depends where you live. Around here the power is rarely out for more than a moment, and even those times are infrequent. And really the only reason we notice at all anymore is because we're more used to having devices like computers that can reveal a power outage over night.

      But in general, the power grid is what you make of it, if you're utility sucks, then you're going to get poor reliability. Around here we have a public utility which handles it and they by and large do a good job.

    3. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm 35, German and can't recall a power outage because I never experienced one.
      So if you say "Around here the power is rarely out for more than a moment, and even those times are infrequent." then yes, your grid is not quite up to date...

    4. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by Pieroxy · · Score: 2

      In France, I have a server in my garage. I moved recently, so I got a downtime, but it is the norm to get more than a year of uptime between power outages. I've lived a bit in the SF bay area, and what I got there was very very far from that. Not counting rolling blackouts, we'd rarely get two month without an outage.

    5. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Rather it is primitive compared with the available technology and projected needs. The monitoring and control equipment on much of the grid remains rather primitive, the wire infrastructure is fragile

      A former drinking buddy of mine - haven't seen him for several years now - is/ was a maintenance planning engineer for the UK National Grid ; he expects typical field life of an item of equipment (i.e. Mean Time Before Failure) to be around 40 years. So he's going to be installing equipment now, in his run-down to retirement, which should not need to be replaced until his replacement is also nearing retirement.

      Unsurprisingly, nation-level electrical grids are not composed of cutting edge technologies.

      I don't know - I'll ask next time I see him - how they validate the MTBF of equipment? Probably by looking at it's installed lifetime in non-grid systems such as heavy plant. So if you're tearing down an industrial plant's electrical system for a re-build/ re-purpose, then your colleagues in the National Grid will be very keen to see how various of your components have survived 18 years of abuse and neglect. And it is to both of your benefits to share this knowledge.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    6. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I've been to Germany, you guys have some pretty significant advantages to us. For one thing, your infrastructure was rebuilt more or less from scratch about 60 years ago. Giving a substantial opportunity to redesign the grid, ours is significantly older than that and just expanded for the increased capacity that we now need. But ignoring that, most of our power has to travel many hundreds of miles to get here, through rough terrain the likes of which you just don't have in Germany, servicing numerous small communities on the way.

      The point is that I doubt very much that if we just deployed whatever technology you're using that it would result in any better result than what we presently have.

    7. Re:Compared to what's possible/needed by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      It's not the outages you have now that are the problem. The current design (if you can call it a design) is subject to cascade failures. Suppose a part of the grid (region 1) loses contact with generating capacity (or the generators go down). So region 1 starts pulling power from region 2, which was already pulling power from regions 3 and 4. The region 2 to 3 connection overloads and shuts down. Then region 2 starts sucking all the power out of region 4, overloading a section of region 4. Region 1, 2, and 4 go dark. Meanwhile region 7, which was buying power from region 1 and shipping it through 2, 3 and 5, starts having brownouts as does 5.

      The situations are typically more difficult than that and the initial failure more complex. Of course these multi-region failures are pretty rare. Once every couple decades or so. They are rare enough that the power companies won't design for them. It's cheaper for them if you're without power for a week every 15 years. It's probably cheaper for you, too, unless you happen to need emergency surgery after the Hospital has run out of diesel fuel for its backup generators.

  23. Mil specs live forever by dargaud · · Score: 2

    I have no idea if this is true, but I've always liked this story that's been going around the 'net for years...

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:Mil specs live forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

    2. Re:Mil specs live forever by dch24 · · Score: 1
      Sorry, you should have read the article you linked to:

      This is one of those items that - although wrong in many of its details - isn't exactly false in an overall sense and is perhaps more fairly labeled as "True, but for trivial and unremarkable reasons."

      In other words, mostly true, but some false claims. Read the Snopes article. It's a good read.

    3. Re:Mil specs live forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual, check Snopes:

      http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

      Short answer: it's not really true.

  24. Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by ascii · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I took the trans mongolian railway from Moscow to Beijing about 10 years ago. One memorable experience is that near the border between Russia and Mongolia (or Mongolia and China i forget) they will change the bogie's on the entire train because the gauges differ in russia and china. The entire trainset is lifted up; the bogies moved out and new ones put in place. A very memorable experience.

    --
    naah sig schmig
    1. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Between China and Mongolia. I took the train from Beijing to Ulan Bator and back.

    2. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Sounds like a lot of work. Surely it would be possible to design bogies that work on either gauge. Evidently not, but I can't see why.

    3. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. Sounds like a lot of work. Surely it would be possible to design bogies that work on either gauge. Evidently not, but I can't see why.

      "A lot of work" is relative. If labor costs are low enough, it's not that much.

    4. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Doomie · · Score: 1

      The same thing happens between Moldova and Romania. It's loud and time-consuming, but definitely quite an experience.

      --
      Doomie
    5. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In August 2010 I took the trains from London England, to Krivoy Rog in Ukraine, and back again. At the border of Poland and Ukraine, they jacked up all the cars and changed the trucks. I'm not sure if they gave us new trucks or just reset the width on some adjustable ones, because I couldn't see that from the train car. But I did see some trucks parked on a nearby track that seemed to be adjustable.

    6. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess not memorable enough to remember which border it was :)

    7. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One memorable experience is that near the border between Russia and Mongolia (or Mongolia and China i forget)

      So not that memorable then?

    8. Re:Gauge shift on the trans mongolian railway by juan2074 · · Score: 1

      You can see this in the movie Transsiberian.

  25. Wooshed by the wooshed by traindirector · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wooshed! by he who himself was wooshed.

    Also, for those who can't tell, I inverted the "o"s in woosh for added effect.

    1. Re:Wooshed by the wooshed by aynoknman · · Score: 1

      Also, for those who can't tell, I inverted the "o"s in woosh for added effect.

      I also notice that the last three letters of "added" and the first four letters of "effect" are spelled backwards.

      --
      We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
    2. Re:Wooshed by the wooshed by OakDragon · · Score: 1

      Send not to know
      for whom the whoosh whooshes
      it whooshes for whoo... I mean, thee!

  26. Re:240v is a lot more dangerous than 120v by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    240V is getting into voltages that kill.

    Since when did voltage kill?

  27. Too Narrow For The Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Standard rail gauge is already an anachronism. In the future, it will be more ridiculous still.

    As peak oil is passed, our society will once again rely more and more on railroads for heavy transportation. Even today, railroad companies are introducing larger freight cars in an attempt to increase capacity, but the only realistic way to meet future needs is to increase rail gauge. What was appropriate for the nineteenth century just will not apply for the twenty-first, twenty-second, and beyond.

    People of the future will lament that an increase in gauge was not planned much earlier. Having to redesign and rebuild a national rail infrastructure is no mean feat. We need to get moving now.

  28. standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Standards area a good thing. So, how about the metric system America?

    1. Re:standards by PPH · · Score: 1

      When Hell reaches 0 degrees C.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  29. Re:240v is a lot more dangerous than 120v by green1 · · Score: 2

    Since it started driving higher currents through the same resistance (in this case the human body)

    It's very difficult to design your outlets to limit the current that will go through a human without limiting what will go through an electronic device, however lower voltages have less ability to overcome the same resistance to cause large amounts of current to flow through the heart (which is usually the important bit in the "killing" part)

    110v can kill you, so can 5v, or 3000v. But if I had to choose, I'd much rather trust the natural resistance of my skin to adequately limit the current flow from a 5v, or even 110v system than a 3000v one, or even a 240v one.

    On a somewhat related note, I know someone who moved from Britain to Canada many years ago, his primary reason to do so was because we use 110 instead of 240. He worked as an electronics repair person (mainly TVs) and was sick of taking 240v shocks. Personally I've always described it as "110 tickles, 240 doesn't!"

  30. Regauging by lennier · · Score: 1

    And here I thought this might be about Feynman's work on quantum electrodynamics.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  31. Might be already stated... by Super+Dave+Osbourne · · Score: 1

    Today it would cost billions, and take years to do this. Just how far has the US come in flexible able engineering? It has gone backwards.

    1. Re:Might be already stated... by SuperQ · · Score: 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia

      Try building a bridge that can take an earthquake and then have a planned life span of 150 years.
      http://baybridgeinfo.org/projects/sas-tower

      Sure, it was cheap, only $77mil.. But you might have been lucky to make $0.50/hour

      Adjusting for inflation that's 1.1 billion, and the thing failed in a 7.1 earthquake. Imagine what would have happened if the 9.0 that hit Japan happened in SF.

  32. Re:240v is a lot more dangerous than 120v by vivian · · Score: 1

    A safety switch will protect you from large currents - they are designed to shut off the supply as soon as there is a difference between active and neutral current, or if there is a leak to ground.

    I have been stung by 240v a couple of times too, when I was younger. I haven't had a hit in years, now I treat it with much more respect and caution. Also if your friend is careless enough to get get bitten by 240v and 110v, , it's just as well TV's don't need fly-back circuits any more or he'd be getting bitten by the several thousand volts from those circuits.

  33. Once they set the wheels in motion... by mr_lizard13 · · Score: 1

    ...they remained on track to complete the change on time, and the project didn't go off the rails.

    --
    "We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
    1. Re:Once they set the wheels in motion... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I think you've just realised where some of our idiomatic baggage came from. Congrats!

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  34. Railfan.net moved their content... by Two99Point80 · · Score: 2

    ...the link in the article now points to a blank page. Try this instead: http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8.ZZZ/gauge.html

  35. Why not variable gauge trucks? by swb · · Score: 1

    A single gauge track network makes the most sense, but where you have multiple gauge networks, why not make the trucks adjustable? It sounds like a problem that even 19th century engineering could have solved.

    1. Re:Why not variable gauge trucks? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      If the two gauges are sufficiently different, you can make "compatible" track by simply laying two rails on one side. It's still not trivial at switches, but it's not too bad, and has been done many times at many places in the past.

      The problem here is that there were converting to a gauge which was really close to the original gauge. Close enough that two sets of tracks wouldn't fit that close together and still allow enough clearance for the wheel. They pretty much had to pull-up and replace a rail.

      As for adjusting the track for each train... are you high? That's hugely difficult... probably possible, maybe even possible with 19th century technology and logistics, but it's a really stupid way to solve the problem. The significantly, significantly easier way is to switch-out the bogies on the rail cars. Shockingly, this is the solution that's actually used on trains that need to cross to a different gauge.

    2. Re:Why not variable gauge trucks? by jsiren · · Score: 1

      Trucks, i.e. bogies, not tracks. There are adjustable wheelsets, although it's more common to change the entire bogie. Also, 1435 and 1524 mm tracks can coexist on a four-rail track; this kind of solution exists, for example, between Sweden and Finland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haparanda-Tornio_rail_bridge_Sep2008.jpg

      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
    3. Re:Why not variable gauge trucks? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Thanks to contributing to the discussion by repeating my point and adding nothing.

    4. Re:Why not variable gauge trucks? by jsiren · · Score: 1

      Thanks to contributing to the discussion by repeating my point and adding nothing.

      You're welcome, although I was mostly commenting on the "As for adjusting the track for each train... are you high?" sentence, since swb was talking about adjustable wheelsets, asking why not make the trucks adjustable? Point taking about gauging my writing before posting. My train of thought must have derailed somewhere...

      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
    5. Re:Why not variable gauge trucks? by Uzuri · · Score: 1

      They did that, believe it or not, back when practically every line had its own gauge.

      Basically they made the wheels wider with the flanges set for the narrowest gauge they planned to encounter.

      Unfortunately, this is fairly unstable and therefore not a great solution. Also, I'm not sure if they were able to use it on locomotives or not, I can't remember. Read about that it a neat old library book full of old rail stories and I just wish I could remember its title.

      --
      I'm a she-slashdotter... but I make up for it by living with my folks.
  36. US freight rail is doing very well by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    The US has a freight rail system that is the envy of Europe. (Europe is ahead in passenger rail, but that loses money.) Intermodal traffic (containers) is way up over the last decade, and profitable. There's new rail construction going on, and rails and locomotives have been upgraded in recent years.

    Modern large locomotives use what are essentially giant computer-controlled servomotors to drive the wheels, so that all the wheels on all the locomotives stay in sync and share the load equally, which means they can all be torqued up to just below where they start to slip. This means fewer locomotives per train, little or no wheel slip, and the ability to coordinate many locomotives spread throughout a train.

    Last year, Union Pacific ran a train 3.5 miles long from Los Angeles to Denver. Average freight train length in the US is now 6500 feet and climbing. That replaces a lot of trucks. Since Los Angeles built a no-grade-crossing rail connection to the port there, far fewer trucks are moving to the port.

    Europe still has a lot of little 2-axle freight cars. Those disappeared from US trackage some time before World War Two, replaced by the standard big four-axle cars still used today. The bigger cars are also stronger, with a consistent minimum coupler strength, which means longer trains are possible.

    Mixing high speed passenger trains and freight on the same track cuts severely into freight capacity. Each passenger train uses up the track time of six freights.

    1. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ironically, one of the reasons passenger rail isn't taking off in the US is because it consistently gets bumped by freight rail.

      Our little Sounder commuter train from Seattle to Everett is constantly pre-empted for freight traffic-- usually mile-long trains hauling nothing but smelly garbage-- and its reliability is so bad, I finally just gave up and moved back to the bus. Considering the train runs 2/3rds empty every day, I'm not the only one.

    2. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by mrxak · · Score: 1

      I used Amtrak for several years, but CSX was always causing delays. If I can drive faster and more reliably than I can take a train, I might as well drive. It's a real pity too, since trains are more comfortable and I can get a bite to eat without having to stop.

      I don't remember now, but it was probably cheaper too, especially since gas is going up and up. But ultimately, if I was going to get stuck on a train for another 10 hour delay, I was going to snap.

    3. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Jeff1946 · · Score: 2

      Yep, it is truly impressive to see these trains. I play golf at a course next to the rail lines that head out from LA to Cajon Pass. The trains have 4 diesels in front and two in the rear and all working hard to make the grade that has begun.

    4. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Ran a train... heh heh heh." -Beavis

    5. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      The US has a freight rail system that is the envy of Europe.

      How true. I live in Europe (Germany). The highways are full of trucks. The problem is that the state owned railroads are mismanaged and inefficient. The US really does a great job with rail freight in comparison.

    6. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Last year, Union Pacific ran a train 3.5 miles long from Los Angeles to Denver.

      Yeah, I had to wait for that fucker at the RR crossing for 20 min.
       

    7. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >(Europe is ahead in passenger rail, but that loses money.)

        Mmh, just have no meaning. In Europe trains are (mostly) state financed, we just pay taxes for these.

        I pay nothing (but taxes) to use the train to go to my workplace. The balance of the Railway companies always are neither positive nor negative just balanced.

      Fta:
      >But the problem with America’s plans for high-speed rail is not their modesty. It is that even this limited ambition risks messing up the successful freight railways.
      >Their owners worry that the plans will demand expensive train-control technology that freight traffic could do without.

      This is just bullshit. High-speed trains need specific tracks. The network of high-speed and freight train are nearly totally independents. Absolutely no impact.

    8. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      Now imagine how great the US freight rail system would be if government didn't siphon off billions of $$$ each year while at the same time subsidizing trucks.

      This is not Joe Crackpot speaking, the thing is this:

      1. The rail corporations have to maintain their tracks and pay property taxes on their rights of way. The US used to have a lot more double-tracked and electrified sections but because those are taxed heavier the companies ripped them out wherever possible. Even where it made economic sense if it wasn't for taxes. Now it's just barren strips of land next to the single track.
      2. Trucks don't have to pay property taxes for roads. But wait, don't they pay fuel taxes? Yes, but the average truck damages the road about 1000 more than a passenger car (the number is from the industry itself). In addition the gas tax doesn't pay for the roads. Most of the gas tax is generated on local roads that aren't covered by it and spent on highways. But even then the federal highway trust fund requires yearly bailouts and it's not much better in many states.

      In short, Republicans should be all for addressing this anti-business outrage and Democrats should wanna hug a tree, but both are too craven to face the lobbyists.

      Each passenger train uses up the track time of six freights.

      That was basically the idea behind China's high speed lines. Separate freight and high-speed traffic. They got side-tracked by the usual Chinese gigantomania, but the basic plan is sound. The problem is that you can't construct a sensible *mass transport* system in the US because North Dakota (no masses to transport) hates the idea of subsidizing New York even though New York pays billions each year to North Dakota for all kinds of shit (Interstates, agriculture, whatever) but they never make the connection. So you need "high speed" trains in the heartland where no one rides them. Amtrak would be profitable, too, if it didn't have to service all 50 states.

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
    9. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Europe still has a lot of little 2-axle freight cars.

      I'm sure they exist and are used sometimes, but I think they're rare, at least in Western Europe. Everything I see go past my house has four axles, although most of the freight is probably on its way to France (which requires it to go on a high-speed line, so possibly only newer wagons are certified for this?)

      Mixing high speed passenger trains and freight on the same track cuts severely into freight capacity. Each passenger train uses up the track time of six freights.

      High speed passenger trains need dedicated lines, and it's rare for these to be used by freight (there are exceptions, like the Channel Tunnel).

      But, it's correct that capacity is cut. Round here many lines are at maximum capacity with passenger trains for part of the day. But you can run a freight train from one end of this country to the other overnight (including the slow, remote bits), which is quite different to the US.

      The highest "normal speed" passenger trains in Britain run at 120-140mph (or something like that), and even local trains reach 80-100mph on many lines. Many freight trains run pretty fast (60mph), some run very fast -- here is a parcels company using 110mph freight trains. Apparently sometimes they run too fast (and I see some two-axle coal wagons there...)

      "New coal wagons are designed for operation at 75mph" (cite

    10. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Last year, Union Pacific ran a train 3.5 miles long from Los Angeles to Denver.

      And pissed the hell out of anyone who had to stop at a rail crossing for it. 3.5 miles + 500 ft warning on both ends, train going 30 mph = 7 and a half minutes wait.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    11. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      And the freight rail system is doing well despite how much track has been decommissioned in the last 40 years. Some has been decommissioned due to mergers, but a lot of other right-of-ways have been removed entirely. When I was growing up in the upper midwest, towns of 200 still had railroad stops for loading grain and timber. At that point it was still the best way to get to the paper mill or to the grain market. (The other option being 200+ miles on 2 lane roads with no shoulder).

      Now, of course, the tracks have been pulled and the right-of-ways are all snowmobile or cross country ski trails. Nothing makes for exciting cross country skiing like a 10 mile straight stretch. Now you might have to drive 40 miles to the nearest set of tracks, and 60 to the nearest freight stop. The trains won't be coming back, even if we need them to. People are to jealous with their land to allow that. Of course, that's been true for a long time. When I was growing up, the tracks to my home town had long since been removed. The right of way crossed my parents driveway. There were trees three inches in diameter growing on it. They're probably much bigger now.

    12. Re:US freight rail is doing very well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amtrak doesn't serve all 50 states and it services the ones it does, poorly. Running separate tracks for high speed passenger rail would require the purchase of large amounts of land. If it were used to run "trains in the heartland where no one rides them", it would be a huge waste of taxpayer money. For what? It satisfy some central planners' quest to be like their European counter part in the passenger rail pissing contest?

      Property taxes are on a state and local level, so unless the railroads can con the various levels of government to create a public rail system where the Feds and states own and maintain the tracks, they can just suck it up and pay the taxes on the property that they were given in the 1800s.

  37. if you can do that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If changing all the rail systems could be done so quickly, converting to metric should be a snap.

    Just need to do a little more prep and then we'll start. Any day now.

  38. off by half an inch by Dr+Fro · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gauge

    It's 4 ft 8 1/2 in.

    --
    ********************
    I object to Intellect without Discipline.
    1. Re:off by half an inch by Arnold+Reinhold · · Score: 1

      Right, but the South switched to 4 foot 9 inches in 1886 to match the gauge used by the Pennsylvania RR. The last 1/2 inch came later. But that was good enough.

  39. Re:240v is a lot more dangerous than 120v by green1 · · Score: 1

    A safety switch will protect you from large currents - they are designed to shut off the supply as soon as there is a difference between active and neutral current, or if there is a leak to ground.

    Which does absolutely nothing if you aren't grounded. if the current is passing through you from one prong of the plug to the other there is no way for the circuit to know the difference between you and a toaster. And simply limiting the amount of current won't help either because it only takes about 60mA to kill you if it flows through the right places. (and most of the things you legitimately want current to flow through require a lot more than that)

    Although ground fault breakers are big safety improvements, they just can't protect you if you're contacting both wires, and not ground.

  40. Variable Gauge systems by williamyf · · Score: 1

    Science marches forward, nowadays several variable gauge systems have been invented. Two types are in use in Spain, where I did my MBA.

    check this:

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Variable_gauge_axles

    So yes, the gauge change had to be done in the 19th century, but nowadays is less of a necesity.

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
  41. Unseen Power of the Picket Fence by catmistake · · Score: 1

    Well the singer, he had long hair,
    And the drummer, he knew restraint.
    And the bass man, he had all the right moves,
    And the guitar player was no saint.

    So let's go way back to the ancient times
    When there were no fifty states.
    And on a hill, there stands Sherman,
    Sherman and his mates...

    And they're marchin' through Georgia!
    They're marchin' through Georgia!
    They're marchin' through Georgia!
    G-G-G-G-G-Georgia!

    They're marchin' through Georgia!
    They're marchin' through Georgia!
    Marchin' through Georgia!
    G-G-G-G-G-Georgia!

    And there stands R.E.M.

  42. East Broad Top Still runs on narrow gauge. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    And it always will.

  43. combine roads with rail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the nice thing about cars on roads, no need to worry so much about exact wheel placement. If only they rolled as efficiently. Maybe roads should be smooth as glass and cars should have roller bearings for wheels. Bumper cars. Would be like blood cells sloshing through veins - calling roads arteries couldn't be more apt. Just a few little engineering hurdles to overcome, nothing major...

  44. What I can't figure out. by readin · · Score: 3, Funny

    If the American south could convert to standard US gauge in only two days, why us is it taking the rest of the world so long to convert to US standard measurements? It can't be that hard to ditch the 4 syllable metric system for the more efficent 1 to 2 syllable Imperial system.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    1. Re:What I can't figure out. by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I think the rest of the world would respond to that idea with one or two well-chosen syllables...

  45. subject by Legion303 · · Score: 1

    "Over two days [...] the railroad network in the southern United States was converted [to] standard gauge"

    Compare and contrast: 2 days to convert 11,500 miles of railways to narrower gauge vs. PSN downtime.

    Of course I know Visa's probably reaming Sony for PCI concerns right now, but I'm still going to sit back with this delicious popcorn and enjoy the show.

  46. Bill Gauge by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    "4.71 inches otta be enough for anyone."

  47. OBSF by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    One of the Colin Kapp "unorthodox Engineers" stories had a planet where no two railway lines used the same gauge.

    'The Railways Up On Cannis' or maybe 'The Subways Of Tazoo'.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  48. How long until the US uses the metric system? by jopet · · Score: 1

    that should actually be easier to accomplish and would benefit more people.

  49. Actually business took rail seriously by Shivetya · · Score: 2

    the US government was not building rail lines. The majority of rail lines built in the 180s were done by private businesses, many without any grants or federal assistance. As such we have an abundance of rail still to this day for moving freight. As society improved roads became dominant because people valued their freedom, freedom to travel and where to live, all within their means.

    I don't understand why so many bemoan out passenger train service. There are only two profitable lines in the world and all the rest require subsidy because the expected number of riders never materialized. There is also the problem in the US of population density, or lack thereof across much of the country. I remember many years ago (think early 90s) having friends over from France who asked if I could pick them up at the airport. They flew into NY, I live in Atlanta. They asked about a short train ride and I explained to them how long it would take. Naturally they flew to Atlanta from NY. We then lent them our van and they toured the US. What was supposed to be two weeks for them turned into six.

    It is all about scale. Railroads do what they do best here, move freight. We then top that off with a large number of trucks because as a people we value convenience. That means not having just a few stores with items we want but many stores. It really is phenomenal how convenient we have it. Bring friends over from the Poland and Czech and they were amazed not at our grocery stores (they actually have a couple of good ones) but the sheer number of them. Just driving back from the airport to my house (twenty miles) we passed more of them than they knew of in their own home areas. Not one of them even mentioned travel by train btw, apparently they are quite used to travel by car. Even going so far as to tell me, never drive through Poland with a car that has German plates.

    We don't have a need for widespread high speed rail. We don't have the population density to support it. Even Europe doesn't have it in many areas even served by rail. It takes a lot of extra money to keep it all operating. Regardless of what some think, travel by train ain't fast, no matter the speed of the train. Airports even with our boneheaded security will get you farther faster. I can engineer a few "what about X to Y" but it still doesn't make it right.

    I love this one fact, the US moves nearly fives times as much by rail as Europe does. This is measured as how much freight is moved by train. Now tell me who has the problem?

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  50. While I'm all for standardisation ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    ... there are good reasons for some lines to be built to a different gauge. The cited examples of "hill lines" (probably in the Himalaya foothills, but not necessarily) are a case in point ; on steep, rapidly curving hillsides, narrow gauge systems have much lower construction costs because they need less length of tunnels, viaducts, etc.

    There are costs of trans-shipping between gauges, etc ; but it's not a totally one-way calculation. You do need to evaluate the alternatives.

    Yes, reducing the number of gauges in use would have benefits for rolling stock manufacturers, but they're only modest benefits since equipment is built in batches on short production lines. Again, there's a calculation involved in the bidding. And there is an external relevant standard for new systems : the shipping container. If you can get standard shipping containers along your line, then the drive to upgrade/ completely rebuild would be lower.

    Which standard to choose ... probably varies from one continent to another. Though the cited Australian morass illustrates the problem well.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    1. Re:While I'm all for standardisation ... by Lorens · · Score: 1

      The cited examples of "hill lines" (probably in the Himalaya foothills, but not necessarily)

      Japan is an excellent example. Lots of rail, but lots of mountains and not a lot of place to avoid them.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan#Gauge_and_electrification

    2. Re:While I'm all for standardisation ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      Fair example.

      Coincidentally, I was just driving past the Scottish home of Thomas Glover, "the Scottish Samurai", who was an engineer and merchant involved in the start-up of what eventually became Mitsubishi Corporation. He was responsible for the import of Japan's first locomotive, and thus indirectly for the choice of the commonest gauge of line in the country.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  51. And what of the horses by Lorens · · Score: 1

    So, since the distance between rails was determined by the size of a horse's ass, does that mean the Southern horses were better fed?

    http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

    Seriously though, the snopes writeup notes that the South used not just five-foot gauge but a total of three different ones, and that that inconsistency was one of the factors that decided the Civil War.

  52. WTF are you talking about? by sirwired · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure it would be illegal to build a house that only had 50A service, and has been for some time. (You'd never pass electrical inspection.) Current code calls for at least 100A 220V split-phase, and most will have 150A and up. I think even my grandmother's house (built in '45) has better than 50A service. Likewise with the non-polarized and/or ungrounded sockets. (Again, not code-compliant for a very long time.) And rolling blackouts are quite rare; they are largely confined to California during only the most extreme heat waves. They aren't "yearly."

    Ok, you can't run a 3kW power tool in your kitchen. That's hardly "dismal." (And getting a split-phase outlet installed for that purpose is a cheap job that can be done by any electrician.)

  53. indias Guage by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

    Just a question. Would 5 foot and a half as mentioned really be 1.5 meters as a width?

    --
    Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  54. I live in Chicago and this is not true by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    The busses stop every block or two at worst. Nearly everything you'd want to go to is on the El and frequently it's much faster than traveling via car. Having to park a car on the city streets, however, is the total opposite of freedom. Between street cleaning tickets, break-ins, stray balls from kids, bad drivers taking out your mirrors, and other headaches on top of what you'd have in suburban car ownership, it takes a hell of a lot of time and money to deal with.

  55. But if they hand gone metric too. by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    But if they hand gone metric at
    the same time we would not have
    missed that space shot to the Mars.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  56. The grid isn't bad, just not as good as possible by sjbe · · Score: 1

    That depends where you live. Around here the power is rarely out for more than a moment, and even those times are infrequent.

    Power in general is quite reliable in most of the US in the sense that power outages are infrequent and normally short - rarely more than a few hours a year most places absent a major natural disaster. Nevertheless, I am not aware of any location in the US that is not subject to periodic power outages and (primarily due to cost) much of the infrastructure is not installed in the most reliable methods possible. I've had two power outages of several hours duration (due to storms) in the last 9 months and at least a dozen short power interruptions of a few seconds. Those could have been avoided with buried cables but buried cables are expensive so the more vulnerable above ground system is used. It's a tradeoff but it's unclear if the cost/benefit ratio is optimized.

    My point isn't that the power in the US is bad - it's actually amazingly good. Rather, my point is that the power system in the US isn't nearly as good as it could be. Our currently available technology significantly exceeds the capability of the vast majority of our electrical grid. Remote monitoring equipment is only fairly recently getting rolled out. My place now is the first place I've lived where I don't have sometime come out to read the meter. The sophistication of the equipment in most houses, businesses as well as at the utilities to monitor and adjust usage is positively archaic and only very slowly improving.

    Actually I think there will be some interesting improvements coming down the road if plug-in hybrid autos catch on like I think they will. Some improvements will come very naturally as power companies try to keep costs in line. Other improvements will probably require a bit of prodding by our government and by consumers to take place, such as emissions regulation. Power companies don't make money by getting you to consume less energy so they have a built in disincentive to make certain types of efficiency improvements.

  57. Germany vs US = Oranges vs Apples by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I'm 35, German and can't recall a power outage because I never experienced one.

    I don't know much about the German grid but a few facts come to mind.

    • Germany is roughly 357,000 km^2 which is a bit larger than New Mexico and smaller in area than 4 US states. The sheer area the US grid has to cover is vastly larger and the population density is far lower in the US. This means wires have to go farther to reach each person and each person is more expensive to serve on average. For cost reasons, much of the US power grid is necessarily more exposed than it might otherwise be.
    • Many areas of the US are significantly more prone to severe weather than Germany. Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, are regular occurrences in some parts of the US. Some areas also experience normal conditions much more severe than anything in Germany - there is no German equivalent to the Sonora or Mojave deserts in the southwest US. Germany does have some of the Alps but that is not nearly as high or vast as the Rocky mountains. Combined with the distances mentioned above, reliable service is necessarily more challenging.
    • Germany's grid was basically rebuilt after WWII whereas parts of the US grid are notably older.
    • I'm not sure of this but Germany apparently has separated electricity production from electricity distribution. In the US, the two are typically owned by the same company. This creates a disincentive for US power companies to invest in improving infrastructure because that is expensive.

    Perhaps you have never experienced a power outage (I'm dubious of your claim but perhaps it is true) but if you are going to compare the US grid to the German grid, you need to understand the differences in what the engineers on this side of the pond face.

  58. i'd like 2 remind those of u... by airdrummer · · Score: 1

    who perhaps don't know, given the sad state of education in the u.s., that all of europe was rebuilt about 60 years ago under the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

  59. Uniguage in India by PIC16F628 · · Score: 1

    This Uniqugauge project in India is more than a decade old. Majority of the metre guage (exactly 1 metre wide) have now been converted to borad-guage (5 feet 6 inches). This has tremendously improved connectivity to both passengers and frieght across the country. There are no bogie changing or wheelset adjusting mechanisms in use anywhere here. The broadguage trains run much smoother and faster than the metre guage ones. The narrow guage tracks are mostly in use on the mountains. Only a handful narrow guage tracks on the plains are being converted to broadguage. Typically it takes 3-5 years for the convertsion to complete and for that duration no trains will run on that section. Quiet absurd really, blocking travel for years.