Finnish Record Labels Want To Block Pirate Bay

jones_supa writes "International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, the national trade association representing record companies in Finland, has filed for a court injunction ordering the Internet service provider Elisa to block access to the Pirate Bay website. 'The development of a legal online market is impossible in Finland if illegal services like The Pirate Bay are freely allowed to continue their operations,' said Lauri Rechardt, a spokesman for Finland's branch of IFPI."

Comments

Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[Microlith]

If that was true in any way, shape, form, or sexual position then Apple, Amazon, and a multitude of other legitimate services would have failed.

Lo and behold, they have not. Instead they have grown.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[dsavi]

Not to mention Spotify. Spotify was absolutely huge in Finland- It was replacing TPB before they made the free version lame.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[billcopc]

If they can't get by with gigs and t-shirts, they're doing it wrong and deserve to fail.

My own business didn't take off overnight, just because I showed up with a screwdriver and gaudy business card. It took off because I busted my ass for years to build it up. Music for profit is a business, and must be built from the ground up, just the same. You write good tunes, you put on good concerts, you identify your market, you establish relationships with other bands, promoters, producers, etc. You keep working at it until all that investment starts paying off, and if it doesn't, you either fucked up, or you're offering a product for which no one wants to pay.

I sure as shit would not buy someone's shirt or pay to see them, if all they played were Limp Bizkit covers, but that's what a lot of kids today are doing. Playing absolute shit to disaffected hormonal preteens, and wondering why, five years in, they're still not globe-trotting bazillionaires. I should know, because I'm operating a label :) I actually encourage my acts to give free tunes online, because it generates a ton of buzz and goodwill that pays off in spades down the road. Just look at Die Antwoord, as a prime example. They're a niche act from South Africa that has toured worldwide to great success, and yet their first album was posted on their web site, in its entirety, free to all visitors. I bought the commercial re-release, I bought the merch, I've seen them live. They've made about $60 from me, just by posting free music online, because it was GOOD music. Multiply that by the 2300 people who showed up to that one concert, and that's a pretty nice chunk of coin for a relatively unknown act. Now multiply that by the hundreds of shows they're played, and I'd call that a thundering success.

How much money has Rihanna made from me ? ZERO. I wouldn't even download her shit for free. So what's the difference ? I actually WANT Die Antwoord to succeed, I'm interested in their offerings, I appreciate what they're doing, and the entertainment they're providing me is worth every penny. I've played that free album more times than I can remember, it gets stuck in my head. Rihanna, she just makes me reach for the mute button. The more I hear her crap on the radio, the more I feel compelled to strangle puppies. Puppies with Rihanna's album cover taped to their cute little faces.

I don't know who Finland's most popular musical franchise might be, but it's a safe bet that if they need lobbyists to write up laws to secure their income, chances are they suck. Chances are I wouldn't ever sign them to my humble little label. Chances are I'd cheer if they got run over by a drunk driver. You're not allowed to call it art, if you're not investing your entire being into the work.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Maybe it's a typo. "The development of a legal online market is impossible in Finland," said Lauri Rechardt, a spokesman for Finland's branch of IFPI. "If illegal services like The Pirate Bay are freely allowed to continue their operations..." to which the rest of the quote continued, "...at least we can see that there are some people out there who are interested in Finnish artists, whom we should probably be promoting on the international market rather than just within our own small country, where we still think we're a 'Phonographic' Industry."

I mean, I'm just trying to read into it and draw out the best possible alternative for Lauri.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[lordholm]

I know for a fact that iTunes music store is available in Finland. Not sure you can get anything else, but the FIFPI has apparently no clue. The development of online markets in the EU is a complete stone age thanks to the likes of the FIFPI who continuously oppose the establishment of the digital single market. Usually the arguments is that it is bad for diversity, something that I don't understand... how is it diverse if it is impossible for me to download French or Italian music just because the record companies refuse to sign a EU wide license.

As soon as the Commission manages to set up the rules for the digital single market, that they have promised to establish within the current term, the European digital market will bloom.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[blair1q]

Amazon killed Borders Books.

So your argument may be built on a cantilevered floor of lahvosh.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[elrous0]

Spotify was absolutely huge in Finland- It was replacing TPB before they made the free version lame.

So, sales were great when the price was $0?

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, oddly enough the $0 price was the thing that got people into actually paying for it eventually. Pity the labels had to ruin the whole idea; now it's near death.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[nospam007]

"Maybe the culture of pirating is more pervasive in Finland?"

Yes, billions of people downloading Leningrad Cowboys.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[interkin3tic]

How much money has Rihanna made from me ? ZERO. I wouldn't even download her shit for free. I actually WANT Die Antwoord to succeed, I'm interested in their offerings, I appreciate what they're doing, and the entertainment they're providing me is worth every penny.

You lost my remaining mod point when you went negative here, since I am not afraid to admit I like Rihanna, both her songs and what little I know about her personal life. Furthermore, what are you implying? That's one mainstream act you don't like, fine. If you're saying that -no- mainstream acts that sell music rather than giving it away meet your approval, well, we should just agree to disagree. And I'll jokingly call you a hipster.

The larger point is this: not wanting to give away your work does not make you evil, a bad artist, or a bad musician. It's all well and good that some acts can follow your model of "making it by concerts and shirt sales" while giving their music away free. I see no reason to suggest that could work with all or even most acts. I see no reason why your standard of "if they do that, it's good music" is better than my standard of "if it's good music, it's good music." I see no reason to fault acts that don't choose to go with your model, just as I see no fault with software developers that choose to charge money for their products rather than simply asking for donations.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[brit74]

> "If that was true in any way, shape, form, or sexual position then Apple, Amazon, and a multitude of other legitimate services would have failed."
Indeed, because if there's one thing propping up Apple, Amazon, and other legitimate services, it's sales to Finland.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[arisvega]

.. then Apple, Amazon, and a multitude of other legitimate services would have failed.

Well, those already have an established client base. Plus they also deal hardware, plus most of their clients are in the USA where, apparently, the penalty for downloading a song or two is incarceration with rapists, killers, drug dealers, and the like.

So if you are just starting your little business now, it IS going going to be harder- unless people are willing to buy it so some of the money ends up to you. Which is something they do in Scandinavia, out of respect for other people's work.

Finland is not considered that much scandinavian, but still, notice how they are actually telling the truth about it; i.e. not "it is immoral", "DRM this and that", but actually "this will stop my business from making money, and I want that money".

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[cyber-vandal]

$0 with adverts every other song. It was limited to 20 hours a month and then they changed it to 10 hours a month. So now it sucks more. I don't mind paying for it, it's great.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[lpq]

Americans are trained differently.

This is reasoning for why things like legalized cannabis-coffee shops work in the Netherlands, or legal prostitution works, but not in the US.

In addition to the large number of law abiding citizens, there are a huge number who wouldn't know how to download something. There is also laziness.

I suspect the ratios of those various groups are different in other countries.
Now whether or not those differing ratios would prevent the start of such a service is anyone's guess.

Another factor -- The US has draconian penalties for almost every crime, imprisons more people than any other country in the world. Once you have a prison record, you become part of an underclass -- one which encourages further criminal behavior. I don't know how many people think about these things or consider their chances of getting caught or prosecuted, but it could be considered more of a threat than in other countries.

So, it's hard to compare the success or fail of different rules & policies in different countries given all the different factors -- unfortunately.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[Skal Tura]

Freemium is often very excellent :)

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[hsa]

That might actually be the point.

Legal online market in Finland is not selling so well. So they blame piracy.

Instead, Apple, Amazon, even Spotify are selling much more than Finnish online retailers together. Why buy from local legal online service with shitty DRM and/or high prices, when you can buy from well established American counterpart? The people in Finland can use the internet and they are just flocking to better online music providers.

Re:Bzzzt! Bullshit.

[billcopc]

I'm not at all offended that you like Rihanna, you're obviously not alone. I like a lot of pop music too, I wouldn't call myself a hipster at all. I can't stand Rihanna but I dig Lady Gaga. That's completely beside the point.

One of the many reasons I'm opposed to selling digital music, and then suing downloaders, is that the industry itself is hypocritical: they'll release "singles" on the radio, cost-free, as a way to promote the rest of the album. Problem is, the singles are often the only good songs on the whole damn disc, so they're effectively giving away the good stuff, and then charging you $18 for filler. If you go and download the free singles, they sue you for infringement, even though the same song has been playing 40 times a day on pop radio.

Just set the dials on your time machine to 11 years ago, when Metallica shat all over Napster. What was the result ? Massive backlash against the band, not increased sales. I still remember that awards show where they aired a skit of the band "borrowing" tangible belongings from a Napster user, leaving him in his underwear in an empty room, as if that were any realistic parallel to file sharing. They didn't get the clue back then, and the industry still doesn't get it today. Music is a social phenomenon. No sane artist would systematically alienate millions of fans like that! The correct response is to adjust your business model to provide more of what the customers want.

File sharing has replaced the mixtape, and if it weren't for countless "personal top 40" torrents on The Pirate Bay, a lot of bands would never find an audience outside their hometown or small country. Do you honestly believe I'd be a huge Dutch metal fan today if my only source of new music was HMV or Wal-Mart ? I'm the only guy in my circle who knows these bands, so if I hadn't stumbled upon the music online, I would never have been exposed to it at all. Now the wife digs it, a couple of friends dig it too, and you can be sure if a Dutch metal band ever comes to Canada we'll be ordering four tickets and train fare to go see them. Four paying customers, acquired for FREE. It didn't even cost them bandwidth, I got the music via P2P. Just hit their facebook pages and you'll find a thousand more stories like mine. These rather obscure bands from half a world away can already look forward to a sold-out concert, despite not spending a penny on advertising over here. Even after the venue takes its cut, that's a six-figure payday. Considering we're crawling out of a recession (supposedly), that's nothing short of a miracle.

whoa

[nomadic]

Record labels want to stop an organization which makes money from their copyrighted work without compensating them for that? That is just shocking.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Record labels want to stop an organization which makes money from the copyrighted work that their cartel basically extorts from artists without compensating them for that? That is just shocking.

FTFY

Re:whoa

[DJRumpy]

The artists are partially to blame for that. They continue to perpetuate the control the record labels extend by signing those shitty contracts. The sad thing here is that if they managed to block that site, and records sales still don't improve, who are they going to after next? Recorded music, as a technology, hasn't decreased in price as the technology became cheaper. People can buy spools of a hundred CDR's for pennies, meaning the only real value is the music itself, and when you compare a 3 minute song to the value of a matinee movie for 5 bucks, the difference is a bit startling. 5 Bucks for a few hours of entertainment vs. a $1.00 or more for 3 minutes, it's just not a good value in most people's eyes.

Re:whoa

[cpu6502]

Dear Nomadic:

I would feel sorry for the record industries decreasing profits (from 2 to 1.9 trillion since 2000 --- oh so sad!), if they didn't SCREW THE ARTISTS AND REFUSE TO PAY BILLIONS IN BACK WAGES (link below). It's like trying to feel sorry for Al Capone because someone stole his bootleg liquor..... or Sony because judges won't let them jail customers who buy used games instead of new. My sympathy is non-existent for these bastards.

http://www.futureofmusicbook.com/2011/03/music-managers-and-artists-could-collect-over-2-billion-in-unpaid-royalties/

Re:whoa

[MightyMartian]

Traditionally artists had little choice. I agree that that is no longer the case, but what do you do if you're a band who signed your distribution and publishing contracts even ten or fifteen years ago? Yes, new artists will probably more and more find alternative means that avoid the traditional recording companies and publishing houses, but the issue for older artists is still there.

Re:whoa

[nomadic]

Extorts? So the labels threaten to break their kneecaps if the artists don't sign over rights to their songs for absolutely no compensation?

Re:whoa

[d3ac0n]

At issue is not that the organization wants to protect it's copyright. That is certainly a logical desire. At issue is the argument that they make in an attempt to protect said copyright. The argument is clearly and obviously flawed and frankly, just plain silly on the face of it, as evidenced by the success of iTunes alone.

Re:whoa

[DJRumpy]

I wonder how long a typical contract is that they sign? I know a lot of younger artists are using the net for distribution, and doing so with great success. Surely those contracts don't last a lifetime. I would think even older artists, once they get past that 'new' stage and get some name recognition, probably have more bargaining power.

Re:whoa

[nomadic]

In other words, the problem is the record labels screwing over artists, so the remedy is for the Pirate Bay to make money by offering the work and screwing over the artists even more? As bad as the labels are, they at least compensate the artists SLIGHTLY. The Pirate Bay just screws them over completely.

Re:whoa

[SilentStaid]

I would like to point out that 5 dollars for a movie gets you to that show. 99c for a song from apple and you could listen to it until your harddrive gives out.

Re:whoa

[MightyMartian]

I think a lot of it depends on ownership of publishing rights and to the masters. A lot of older artists, to put it bluntly, were royally screwed as far as ownership goes, or, to put it more bluntly, bamboozled. The recording industry left behind a lot of victims, which is why I find the current "woe is us, TPB is killing us" rather ironic. The problem is that, no matter how you do it, the fall of the record companies, whether it happens now or later, will have a lot of victims who weren't in on the scam.

Re:whoa

[Professr3]

Or until the DRM decides otherwise.

Re:whoa

[Moryath]

No, but the IFPI/RIAA/MAFIAA "either you sign the contract with us or we'll have you blacklisted from most live venues and you won't be eating by next week" negotiation model is pretty damn close.

Re:whoa

[mcgrew]

Fewer musicians are doing that. I know a fellow personally who's been offered a label contract. He told them to fuck off, he'd rather play in bars than give his work away to the record companies.

Re:whoa

[hairyfeet]

Actually most musicians will tell you they don't make shit from record sales, all the money comes from concerts and merch. hell even those of us that played in regional bands can tell you that, you sell the CD for a little over cost, just to cover production, and where you make your profits are the T-shirts, hats, mugs, keyrings, etc.

Why? simple: the music is advertising that gets you to the show. The more CDs you have out there, the more people you have potentially listening and hopefully playing it for their friends. this advertising then gets said friends to go to the show, where you as the artist then sell them the merch.

I had a nice thing going with my band where in each city we played I'd go hit the pawn shops and pick up a "pawn shop special" guitar or bass, which we would all sign and either myself (if it was a bass) or one of our guitarists would play it for a few (or several if they liked the sound) songs and then we would raffle it off. Every CD,T-shirt, etc got you another slot in the drawing. made out like bandits with that one we did. Oh and if any other musicians want to use the idea I offer it under the GPL. As long as you give me credit have fun! And enjoy the money, as we'd make close to a thousand a night with that trick.

So you see Nomadic the CDs are adverts nothing more, and it is the middle men leeches, that royally fuck EVERYBODY that are trying to make them profit centers. and why not? they steal the rights from the artists, don't pay them shit (last I checked even top draws only get a lousy 80c on a $20 CD) and own the rights to do with as they like for eternity.

Oh and as for why anyone would sign? We were told flat footed that NO radio stations in any of the markets would be allowed to play us, NO TV other than local would be allowed to touch us, and you know what? They were right. We had DJs tell us "Man we just love your stuff and listen to it in our cars, but we'll get fired if your name isn't on the list". You see this is what in the past would be labeled payola or antitrust, but since our corporate masters were able to get those pesky laws ignored with sack fulls of bribes they are allowed to pull that shit. We never signed but we got to see first hand what happened when you did, as one of the bands opening for us did. They ended up breaking up and never being able to work together just to get out of their contract, and now they can't play those two albums worth of songs, since the record company completely owns them for eternity.

So I can tell you that you aren't hurting any artists by going PTB, in fact the more people that listen to them the better. They will be lucky if they get a few pennies from the record leeches, more likely they will be like our friends and get hit with a $60,000 bill for "advertising expenses" for a record THEY promoted THEY recorded for less than $10k and THEY hustled to sell. The record management set up a grand total of TWO radio interviews, then new management came in and decided they were "going in a new direction" and basically left them in the street. so fuck the record companies and the horses they rode in on, you ain't doing no favors to artists by buying from them!

Re:whoa

[Moryath]

The Pirate Bay just screws them over completely.

O RLY?

Interestingly, the heyday of the RIAA, the point at which they were making the most money, was the period when Napster was also in its heyday. New artists were coming out all the time, getting a ton of exposure through Napster that they'd never get over the radio.

MafiAA revenue declines match well with four factors, none of which have anything to do with "piracy":
#1 - The rise in other forms of entertainment. Video games, in the past decade, have ballooned. In a system where people only have a finite amount of recreational funding, people are less likely to buy music CDs. Youtube videos, Hulu... people have a ton of access to other time-wasters. About the only thing CDs are good for is car listening.

#2 - The re-rise of the single over services like iTunes. Why buy an entire album when you can just buy the 1-2 songs that are any good off of it and leave the rest of the crap songs behind?

#3 - Economic decline in general. Face it, when 15-20% of your target market is unemployed, you should EXPECT revenues to decline.

#4 - Lack of investment in new acts and production of new material. Instead of anything innovative, or anything GOOD, we get overproduced, cookie-cutter garbage 99% of the time these days. Miley Cyrus, the Jonas Brothers, and don't forget the newest gay disney boyband "BBMak." Britney Spears sounds like Mcdonna sounds like Lady Gaga sounds like Who The Fuck Cares I'm Done. Rap, "Hip-hop", and the bastardized "R&B" that has ceased to mean "Rhythm and Blues" and instead now means "Retarded and Black"? Yeah. I don't care if you talksing like William Shatner about shooting cops or fucking hoes, I really don't, because your "music" is pure crap.

Re:whoa

[Lumpy]

No they don't like the competition for robbing the artist. And they are frightened that the artists will discover they don't need the label at all. Honestly, if you are good and you recorded everything and threw it all to the internet for free, you will be a success. People will go to your shows, people will BOOK YOU for shows, they will want the tshirt, etc.... There are a couple of bands here that have done this and they all now do music stuff and no longer need day jobs. Do they make $40,000,000,000 in record sales? no but that 's not realistic.

Re:whoa

[iceaxe]

Does your friend have a website where I can purchase something from him? I'd like to support that attitude.

Re:whoa

[Maxo-Texas]

I bought Moulin Rouge for $9.99.

I've watched it 20 times. I can continue to watch it.

That movie took hundreds of people to make. The typical record takes a couple dozen (some involved for only a few hours).

Prices for records reflect the tiny market of the 1950's- not today's market of millions of listeners.

If you sell your self-produced song to 7 million people for a dime, you just pulled in $700k for 5 to 10 people. Not bad for a month's worth of work.

Prices will trend downwards- there is an enormous glut of entertainment. I fall more behind every week. One way I choose is based on price. By watching cheaper now- the price on the other stuff drops and it becomes cheaper to watch in 3-5 months. I have one friend who is now 3 years behind and his entertainment is very inexpensive.

The last "bootleg" disk I got (Blue October) resulted in my spendng about $130 so far on their concerts and T-Shirts.

Re:whoa

[Maxo-Texas]

A huge, already successful band tried to bypass the concert system a few years ago.
Failed.

The only way you can bypass the labels is if you find a new path- the existing ones are all wholly owned top to bottom (distribution channels, record stores, radio stations).

I think it's breaking apart and hopefully the radio stations will not be able to lock up online distribution.

Re:whoa

[iceaxe]

The problem is supply and demand and changing technology leaving behind a formerly profitable business model that is slowly but surely going extinct, and not going quietly into that good night. The recording industry would do well to spend their efforts on figuring out a business plan that fits tomorrow instead of yesterday. Some will make the transition, some won't.

As for TPB, they merely supply a place to discover what other people are offering - whether illegal or legal. They profit from the traffic to their website creating ad revenue. One might successfully claim that they encourage illegal acts, and that they facilitate illegal acts, but they aren't selling anything but ads and TPB paraphernalia.

As for the artists, they are getting publicity and growing fan base at the low low cost of $0.00, which is one heck of a lot less than what the big labels charge them. (Give up your artistic freedom, give up your publishing rights, give up nearly all of the profit from selling recordings, etc. etc.)

The fact is, for most artists the labels provide a valuable service for a steep price. However, the value of that service is decreasing, but some labels still see more profit in fighting change than in revising their way of doing things. The future is bright for labels that offer good service with equitable terms to artists, and fair prices for desired products to consumers. Fact is, though, the value of a commodity is how much someone is willing to pay for it, not how much it costs to produce. And bits are cheaply and easily obtained - unlike in the past.

Re:whoa

[Coren22]

What is the band name? In Baltimore, they actually have a venue that does weekly shows on Monday night, and the most popular band each night makes it onto the local radio station (www.98online.com) and they even run contests where the outcome is a recording deal (not distribution deal), but I am unsure how often that happens.

Re:whoa

[SilentStaid]

Sir, if you're still buying DRM'd music when you can get the mp3s for 99 cents I'd call that the first problem.

Re:whoa

[MBGMorden]

5 dollars get in you into that movie until it comes out on DVD. Then $15 buys it on release day, then $10 a year or two later, finally ending up in the $5 bin a few years after that. The really unpopular ones end up at Big Lots for $3 or so. For the most part though, you can buy plenty of movies for that $5.

Re:whoa

[Methuseus]

I thought BBMak came around in the late 90's and then went back into obscurity pretty quickly. Don't tell me they're still around and still big!

Re:whoa

[mcgrew]

His name's Joe Frewe, he's been doing solo shows. I think "The Station" has been approached by labels as well, they play all over the midwest and have at least two CDs out. Their front man, Dave Littrell, is about the most talented musician I've seen. The guy plays guitar, sax, keyboards, and sings. You can download thir live shows in several formats both compressed and lossless at archive.org.

Re:whoa

[mcgrew]

His name's Joe Frewe, he's been doing solo shows. Not sure if he has a web site but he's most likely on FaceBook.

Some other friends are in "The Station", I think they've been approached by labels as well. They play all over the midwest and have at least two CDs out. Their front man, Dave Littrell, is about the most talented musician I've seen. The guy plays guitar, sax, keyboards, and sings. You can download thir live shows in several formats both compressed and lossless at archive.org, can probably buy their CDs at thestationmusic.com, and IINM they're on iTunes as well.

Really?

[Robadob]

What about iTunes and amazon music etc, don't these count as legal online markets to purchase music? (Or are these unavailable in Finland?)

Re:Really?

[kehren77]

Yes, iTunes has a Finland store.

Re:Really?

[dsavi]

Most of the regular services are available in Finland, with the exception of Pandora (However "regular" Pandora is, I don't know). Finland also has Spotify. Given Finland's stance on free speech (We top the Reporters Without Borders press freedom index along with a few other countries, last I checked), I doubt that this kind of censorship will go through. I know, press freedom isn't entirely related to this. But Finland is a lot more liberal about such things than, say, the US.

Pretty much everyone I know here in Finland had moved to Spotify from illegal downloading, until Spotify watered down the free version. Restoring Spotify to its previous state would be far, far more effective than blacklisting TPB.

Re:Really?

[Aggrajag]

TTVK (IFPI representative in Finland) is blaming piracy when the real reason is that most Finnish online record stores are not very good and the music is full of DRM.

Re:Really?

[elrous0]

Restoring Spotify to its previous state would be far, far more effective than blacklisting TPB.

Yeah, if only they would give it away for free, we wouldn't have to steal it.

Re:Really?

[uvajed_ekil]

This isn't about fair trade or free speech, unfortunately. Record companies around the world developed a sense of entitlement because their business model worked very well for a few decades. Now that consumers and artists alike have grown tired of the record companies only serving their own interests while screwing everyone else, no one wants to support the old business model. Force legislation down our throats to protect a bad, dying model is not the way to go.

Don't allow the big corporations to tell you what you must buy and how much, and they will be forced to adapt if they want to survive.Take Apple: they went through some very tough times (because there were no laws designed specifically to protect them), so they innovated, adapted, gave people what they wanted, and now they are thriving. The case with Ford in the US is somewhat similar - they were bailed out, yes, but their competitors were not banned or handcuffed; Ford is once again producing quality products that people want and can afford, and they are doing remarkably well as a company. I'm considering buying a new Ford for the first time in my life, though I see little reason to spend $18 on crappy CDs using 1980 technology, which I can not return or test drive. I also never buy movies anymore, since $20-30 for new releases I will only watch once or twice more, and am legally (though not technologically) unable to back-up. Ford didn't screw me or push restrictive laws to force all cars look and perform like a 1989 Ford Taurus forever, they went back to the drawing board (after borrowing a few bucks, which they have repaid, of course).

I'm a couple of generations removed from Finland, but I doubt this will go over well there, arguably the most "free" country in the world. Besides, iTunes is proof that a legal market can exist and thrive amidst piracy. And you'll never eliminate piracy entirely - they just keep making it more inconvenient, and some one else keeps finding ways to make it easier. Folks will revert to analog copies if digital-digital copies are ever somehow made impossible.

Re:Really?

[indeterminator]

Actually, a lot of previously free Spotify users I know are now either paying for it, or considering paying for it. The big reason: Spotify mobile (which never was free).

10€/month is close enough to free for a lot of people.

(also most people I know wouldn't know what a 'torrent' is)

Re:Really?

[mmcuh]

It was never free. It had ads in it. It may be the case that the ad revenue didn't cover the expenses, but it was never free.

Re:Really?

[cyber-vandal]

It's not really free since you have to listen to adverts every other song.

International Federation of the Phonographic Ind..

[Haedrian]

Remember kids! Don't download your Long Plays and Singles illegally,

Not always infringment

[McGiraf]

What if someone is using the pirate bay to distribute his own content?

Blocking it for the record company is just using the government and laws to prevent competition.

They are losing control of the music business and they are getting scared.

Re:Not always infringment

[brit74]

> "What if someone is using the pirate bay to distribute his own content?"
Use a different method. There's lots of them available on the internet. Here's a few: setup a website and put your music on there, put your music on MySpace, put your music on Facebook, put your music on Megaupload, put your music on dropbox.

> "Blocking it for the record company is just using the government and laws to prevent competition. They are losing control of the music business and they are getting scared."
No, it's blocking illegitimate competition.

Re:Not always infringment

[McGiraf]

"No, it's blocking illegitimate competition."

Which law is the Pirate bay breaking?

(Hint, US laws do not apply outside of the US)

Re:Not always infringment

[gknoy]

> "What if someone is using the pirate bay to distribute his own content?"

Use a different method. There's lots of them available on the internet. Here's a few: setup a website and put your music on there, put your music on MySpace, put your music on Facebook, put your music on Megaupload, put your music on dropbox.

A torrent is more convenient for your customers (people you might want going to your shows or buying your next album) than some of those, and after the initial seeding, requires very little from you in terms of upload bandwidth. I'm not saying that a torrent is the best option, but saying "well don't use it" is disingenuous.

Of course

[Dachannien]

The development of a legal online market is impossible in Finland if illegal services like The Pirate Bay are freely allowed to continue their operations.

Well, duh. I mean, it totally turned out that way in the US and various other countries with unfettered access to TPB. Nobody ever buys music online from iTunes or Amazon.

Re:Of course

[brit74]

> "Well, duh. I mean, it totally turned out that way in the US and various other countries with unfettered access to TPB. Nobody ever buys music online from iTunes or Amazon."
If you look at the numbers, you'd see that music sales in the US, when adjusted for inflation and population growth, have declined to 1/3rd of what they were 10 years ago.

Re:Of course

[Dachannien]

That's not what their statement is arguing. They're saying that there's no way to develop a viable online market for music sales in the face of file sharing, which simply isn't true. In fact, despite the decrease in sales overall, there has been a significant increase in online sales over the past several years. The CD is dying, and digital sales will take over regardless of whether file sharing sites like TPB are accessible or not.

As for the decline in sales overall (and I'd like to see a reputable reference for your statistic, preferably one with a nice graph), one could attribute this to several things other than file sharing: one, a shift to other forms of entertainment in the Internet age; two, the ability of people to preview music before buying (e.g., 30-second clips on iTunes or Amazon); three, the ability of people to purchase only the songs they're interested in rather than having to buy complete albums; four, a perceived reduction in the quantity of high-quality music over the past several years; five, a reduction in marketing "bandwidth" resulting from fewer people listening to radio and MTV no longer showing videos; six, the increased accessibility of the non-RIAA "long tail" associated with being able to discover music online. I'm sure there are others, but that's what I could come up with right now.

What about the levy fees?

[Fizzl]

We pay ungodly amounts for our blank media so we can legally copy. Fuck you Teosto and Gramex.

Re:What about the levy fees?

[Lemming Mark]

In *some ways* I like the idea of being able to legally copy, even though I'm against imposing a stupid tax on blank media. To what extent can you "legally copy", though? Can you really just copy any physical media you can get your hands on and it's OK? e.g. rent all the films you want once, then share your copies of those disks with friends?

This case basically sounds like the same people who'd be in favour of the "free market" if the boot was on the other foot, now whinging because nobody is enforcing their business model.

Re:What about the levy fees?

[grimJester]

We're allowed to copy, iirc, "a few copies for oneself, family and close friends" provided that the original source was legally acquired. I assume a p2p system where you only download from / upload to people you know irl would be legal.

Anyway, these claims about the Finnish market being somehow special is complete junk. The actual companies behind Teosto and Gramex are the same old RIAA, any realistic online market for music is international anyway and Finnish consumers have the same devices, habits and preferences as people listening to music anywhere.

Re:What about the levy fees?

[negge]

Finnish law is a bit outdated on this subject. The tax on blank media originates from the times when movies were bought on VHS and music on CD or cassettes. The purpose of the tax was that individuals could freely make personal copies of movies they'd bought and the movie and record industry could still have a piece of the cake. Today the problem is that even though you're allowed to make personal copies of DVDs and Blu-ray discs, you're not allowed to break the encryption, which is required if you want to make a copy, essentially defeating the whole purpose on the tax.

In related news the "blank media tax" has been widened to also include USB memory sticks and USB harddrives. The tax on external harddrives with capacity over 250GB is 20 € if I recall correctly, which of course is absurd. Luckily the tax doesn't seem to have affected retail prices (yet).

Re:Not going to happen

[denis-The-menace]

it doesn't matter.
Any website that angers or annoy rich people will be taken down by hook or by crook (e.g.by bought politicians)

Re:Translation

[i_ate_god]

well, reasonable price? TPB is free, it doesn't get much more reasonable than that in the eyes of a consumer.

Pricing

[archer, the]

The development of an *overpriced* legal online market is impossible. Make a fairly priced legal online market, and I'll be there, as I am with Amazon's MP3 store.

Re:International Federation of the Phonographic In

[idontgno]

Don't Download This Song!

I'd have to say...

[Megane]

I'd have to say that The Pirate Bay is... Finnished.
(removes sunglasses)
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

So provide an equivalent service...

[SharpFang]

I'd like then the record labels to provide a free search and tracker for Linux images, free games, public domain music and ebooks, alternative cinema and investigative journalism movies, and other legal material provided normally by the Pirate Bay.

The development of a legal online free culture is impossible in Finland if corrupt organizations like IFPI are allowed to shut down their operators.

Re:So provide an equivalent service...

[brit74]

> "The development of a legal online free culture is impossible in Finland if corrupt organizations like IFPI are allowed to shut down their operators."
What silliness. All that stuff can still be put online. Here's a few places: YouTube, MySpace, MegaUpload, Wordpress, Download.cnet, or one of the trackers that actually respects copyright. What in the world would make you say that "legal online free culture" is impossible without the PirateBay?

Re:So provide an equivalent service...

[SharpFang]

A full DVD of the last "The Yes Men" stunt?
In one comfortably available piece?

Youtube? no. Myspace? hell no. MegaUpload - in 50 pieces with delay between downloads, so no. Wordpress? Unlikely. Download.cnet? hell no. Other trackers? The people shamed by the movie will send (baseless, invalid) DMCA and the trackers will comply without a fight.

BTW, did you RTFS? The last sentence of it?

Re:yawn

[mlts]

Bingo, the more there are bans against sites, the more companies will be stepping up to offer VPN services.

The sad thing is that once people are forced to VPN services, there is nothing countries can do to see traffic, unless try to ban the services. Then a cat and mouse game will ensue.

Re:Translation

[d3ac0n]

Actually, if the success of iTunes is any indication, You actually CAN get more reasonable than "free".

I know that I don't mind paying a moderate price for the cost of an "album" because I get a sense that I am supporting the artist. Particularly if I am buying it from either the artist's website or from an independent artist not affiliated with a major record label.

That feeling alone is a form of value. It is the intangible value that you do NOT get when you simply download it. I think the success of online music sales has proven that even without a physical object, legal ownership of data does carry intrinsic value all on it's own.

Re:yawn

[Lumpy]

and it does not matter, once the tracker get's out you are fubar. so I cant get the tracker at Pirate bay, but dave can and he can paste that magnet link on another site and BOOM I now can enjoy the 39,000,000 seeder swarm that will be this artist's album and a bootleg recording of their shower singing recorded by someone to prove a point.

There are Finnish record labels ?!

[bugs2squash]

Holy crap ! What next, Klingon ?

FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Your feeble entry to Eurovision will be mocked!

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Luckyo]

That was below the belt.

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

PLEASE! KEEP FINLAND OFF TORRENTS!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA5Vno4Z43M

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Luckyo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE = what should have gone to eurovision.

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Ouch.

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Skal Tura]

Let's not forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ZfQMOHB5k ;) Yes, hell froze over

Re:FINLAND BE WARNED!

[Skal Tura]

Special hero heavy metal version shot in lapland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M6px6Ynm90

Re:Not going to happen

[lordholm]

Most likely not as Finnish courts have to abide by rulings from the Union courts: http://euobserver.com/893/32190

Re:Give us our MONEY BACK

[GCsoftware]

You fail the Internets. (Hint: Iceland != Finland)

Hungary

[sourcerror]

Hungary has a similar law and tax (and quite a few other European countries as well). The tax is currently only distributed among musicians, moviemakers don't get a share, and the distribution ratio is based on popularity ( radio playlists and number of records sold). Downloading copyrighted work is legal*, uploading is illegal. So bittorrent is illegal in theory, as people upload as well, but users aren't prosecuted. (Although, you can't use it in university networks.) Sometimes trackers are shut down. Pay-for-ftp warez servers are quite often the target. And there's BSA. But they only harass corporations.

* Rationale is that users can't know what content is legal and what isn't, but they won't prosecute you even if you're using a pay-for-ftp warez site.

Re:legal online market is impossible w/ piratebay

[shentino]

Singles aren't as profitable when you can force consumers to buy the whole CD and pay for every song on it.

Pirate Bay is Sweden, a local old rival of Finland

[circletimessquare]

nothing here to see except typical nationalistic ego tweaking, jealousies, and grudges. move along

Suppose, Just Suppose...

[Nom du Keyboard]

Suppose, just suppose, that someone in Finland wishes to download something from TPB not owned or controlled by this trade association requesting this all-encompassing block? Something otherwise legal in Finland to download? Hasn't the trade association totally overstepped their charter by trying to deny that as well?

behind the times

[MrDiablerie]

Really? People still use TPB? i thought everyone pretty much moved onto private trackers.

Legislative, executive, judiciary, and now media

[tepples]

Why? simple: the music is advertising that gets you to the show.

So how do fans get into the show if they're not 21 years old yet? And are all musical genres amenable to live performance?

Every CD,T-shirt, etc got you another slot in the drawing.

Did you make sure that this drawing was in compliance with local sweepstakes regulations, which often stipulate no purchase necessary?

We had DJs tell us "Man we just love your stuff and listen to it in our cars, but we'll get fired if your name isn't on the list".

"So how do I get on the list?" If you collect enough replies that a local band can't get on the list, try reporting about these replies to the local newspaper, to newspapers of nearby cities, and then to the major news media. The media have in effect become a fourth branch of government.

People listen to Finnish music?

[coronaride]

Other than "How's it hangin', Grandma?", I thought that Fins don't even listen to their own music.

Re:People listen to Finnish music?

[OwMyBrain]

Well, if you're into Power Metal (like me) you're actually probably quite familiar with plenty of Finnish music. In fact, I was drawn to this article because I care way more about the music coming out of Finland than I do about the music here in the US.

When you get tired of all the recycled Pop, Alternative, and Hip Hop around here check out some bands like Nightwish, Stratovarious, Sonata Arctica, and Lordi. You won't be disappointed!

Does anyone use Pirate Bay anymore?

[LordRobin]

Okay, I'm being semi-facetious. But when I want a torrent of something, I never type in Pirate Bay's URL. I go to one of the many torrent search sites easily found by Google. Of the torrent files I download, many point to a Pirate Bay tracker, but just as many don't.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see what is accomplished by singling out the Pirate Bay at this point.

------RM

Other way around?

[Rozzin]

'The development of a legal online market is impossible in Finland if illegal services like The Pirate Bay are freely allowed to continue their operations,' said Lauri Rechardt, a spokesman for Finland's branch of IFPI.

That sounds backward: isn't it difficult-to-impossible to get an illegal trade under control unless there are legal alternatives competing with it?

Between two recent recessions

[tepples]

#3 - Economic decline in general.

There have been two recent recessions: one starting in 2001 caused by the collapse of the dot-com bubble and the attack on the World Trade Center, and another starting in 2008 caused by the collapse of the housing bubble. Where were the labels between those?

OCILLA

[tepples]

I'd like then the record labels to provide a free search and tracker for Linux images, free games, public domain music and ebooks, alternative cinema and investigative journalism movies, and other legal material provided normally by the Pirate Bay.

Mininova.

Here in the United States, we have a process called OCILLA (17 USC 512) in which a copyright owner can tell a service provider to take an allegedly infringing copy of a work down, and then the subscriber can tell the service provider to put it back up two weeks later. In return, the service provider is immune to contributory or vicarious infringement liability (Viacom v. YouTube). The two week delay is intended to allow the copyright owner enough time to file a copyright suit against the subscriber. I imagine that other countries have analogous processes. But I seem to remember that The Pirate Bay has made a point of flouting such notices, unlike Mininova which stays in business by heeding them.

Insightful

[fuzznutz]

Fact is, though, the value of a commodity is how much someone is willing to pay for it, not how much it costs to produce.

This has to be the most insightful comment I have ever read here. Throw in a bit about artificial scarcity, and I will vote for you for Emperor of Slashdot.

Re:legal online market is impossible w/ piratebay

[brit74]

> "iTunes seems to be doing just fine, even though piratebay and other illegal sites exist."
That's because many people refuse to accept piracy as a legitimate means to get entertainment. It's also worth noting that music sales in the US, when adjusted for inflation and population growth, are roughly 1/3rd what they were 10 years ago.

Oh noes

[cyberfin]

I read phonographic wrong. Very wrong. Need poffee, I MEAN coffee.

Will this be

[cyber-vandal]

A fight to the finnish? (sorry...)

Keep it laughable, guys.

[quag7]

Back in 1985 or so, I remember reading all of the anti-piracy stuff that was being put out by software companies, all of which essentially amounted to this argument:

If people pirate stuff, there won't be any monetary incentive to create, and:

* The video game industry will dry up and no one will make any more video games.

* The business software industry will dry up and no one will make any business software.

* The record industry will die and no one will make any music.

In 2011, is there any more appropriate reply than "LOL"?

At bare minimum, they need to stop making stupid arguments. "We are losing revenue which we could rightfully pocket if piracy were stopped" is far more honest here, however anyone else feels about piracy. Or "sharing." Or whatever people call it.

People need to drag out the "Don't Copy That Floppy!" stuff from the early days, and rather than laugh at how dated the pitch looks, use it as an example of how fucking stupid the argument is, as it has no basis whatsoever in reality. I seriously wonder who the affected industries think they're impressing with the "OMG piracy - the pump don't work 'cos the vandals took the handle! SOFTWARE FAMINE ICE AGE WASTELAND COMING!" argument, because this is such a laughably shit argument.

Re:Legislative, executive, judiciary, and now medi

[hairyfeet]

I have seen guys playing Nintendos in avant garde Lo fi, so frankly I don't see why any music can't be played live. hell in case you ain't heard Elvis is on tour (digital Elvis with live band) and in Japan they have a hologram throwing live concerts and packing the place!

As for the sweepstakes rules? Dude cops don't care about that as long as the drawings are fair which was why they had the "no purchase necessary" placed in there in the first place! Hell we even had a uniformed state trooper do the drawing at one of our shows, he got a thrill out of being the one to choose the winners and hand out the prizes, nobody cares as long as you're honest, and since we in the band NEVER did the drawings ourselves, but would pick some random person from the front row to reach in and draw the tickets it was all good.

As for kids most of us are QUITE happy to play outdoor festivals and all age shows, our main concern is you get to enjoy the music, not how much booze you get to drink. Most bands love playing the summer shed shows, it lets us get closer to the audience (we would always set up a booth in the back where folks could get merch and talk to us about anything, it was nice to get folks asking questions like "Why do you play that pretty red & white bass on some songs and not on others?" Answer-Because it is nearly 40 pounds of South American Swamp ash and sling that sucker for the whole show slows me down, whereas my black JP90 is less than 10 pounds and lets me run across the stage like a madman?) and we were all kids too once you know. We remember how nice it was to go out and catch a live band and have a good time.

As for "how do I get on the list" are you SERIOUSLY that naive dude? Because the same companies that own the radio own the TV thanks to the congress critters removing that pesky "only allowed so many stations per area" rule. Go look up the rules on Clear channel play, I'm sure you'll find them posted, no big secret. you have to be signed with an affiliated label to get on the lists. No label deal? no play for you! It isn't exactly a secret dude, its been that way for years. Good luck BTW since no lawyer is gonna want to tangle with those sharks for less than a couple of hundred grand up front, as they know the appeals will take the better part of a decade.

Finnish music industry

[fibonacci8]

How else are we going to get such wonders as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE

Re:erm, good luck

[icebraining]

Here in Portugal the video rental club association tried to get TPB blocked. Result? There's a torrent which points to a few thousand of their emails, extracted from their server. Oh, and TPB was never blocked :)

Re:Legislative, executive, judiciary, and now medi

[tepples]

Because the same companies that own the radio own the TV

Then get your story on NPR.

Go look up the rules on Clear channel play, I'm sure you'll find them posted, no big secret. you have to be signed with an affiliated label to get on the lists.

I couldn't find such on ClearChannel.com nor on Google rules on clear channel play. Nor does Wikipedia's article about Clear Channel Communications contain the word "label". Google clear channel affiliated label pulls up an article about Clear Channel's allegedly having ended payola four years ago.