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FSF On How To Choose a License

ciaran_o_riordan writes "FSF have put together their license recommendations, beyond just their own licenses, for software, documentation, and other works: 'People often ask us what license we recommend they use for their project. We've written about this publicly before, but the information has been scattered around between different essays, FAQ entries, and license commentaries. This article collects all that information into a single source, to make it easier for people to follow and refer back to. The recommendations below are focused on licensing a work that you create — whether that's a modification of an existing work, or a new original work.'"

210 comments

  1. On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Please don't use it for software or documentation, since it is incompatible with the GNU GPL and with the GNU FDL."

    I find this advice very, very bad. This is where FSF's mentality goes so very wrong, and where they really don't seem to stand for freedom in any sense at all. Remember: freedom is a two-way concept, not a one-way concept as the FSF gladly would want it to be. "Of course we're all about open and free licenses, as long as you choose one of ours."

    1. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me try to put this in perspective:

      It's documentation, who cares?!

    2. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course you find that advise bad, because you made it up yourself.

      I don't find that sentence anywhere in TFA.

      Are you just making things up now?

    3. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No he isn't. It's on GNU License List about Creative Commons license, like the topic says.

    4. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a recommendation. They aren't forcing you to choose one license or another.

    5. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      he found it in the CC section linked from the article, if you'd just care to read....... http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#ccbysa

    6. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Where the heel did you find that quote. Certainly not in the linked recommendation.

      He probably found it here.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    7. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by tao · · Score: 1

      This is quite ironic, since the GFDL isn't GPL compatible either...

    8. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Qubit · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Please don't use it for software ..., since it is incompatible with the GNU GPL and with the GNU FDL."

      A little birdie dumped a codebase on my head recently and one of the many bugfixes I had to do before I could even legally distribute the thing was to rip out some CC-BY-SA code and replace it with something GPL-compatible.

      I have no doubt in my mind that whoever chose the CC license for that code wasn't thinking. Or at least not that much. They wanted to open the code? Great. They wanted to copyleft it? Marvelous as well. A copyleft license like the GPL probably would have been fine for them. That's why we need more simplistic documents like the one that the FSF created.

      I do have some concerns about the GFDL and the CC licenses for documentation. On the one hand I feel that CC-BY-SA doesn't have some of the legacy non-free baggage mechanisms that you can find in the GFDL. On the other hand I have personally run into problems where documentation for projects includes non-trivial code examples, and the Benton Fraser in me has dutifully tried to get specific permission or dual-licensing on the code examples so that I can use them in a program.

      I hope that, just as there has been work to make the GPLv3 and Apache 2.0 licenses compatible, we'll see future work to make some of the CC licenses more compatible with permissive and/or copyleft code licenses. Remember that the FSF endorsed that relicensing escape-clause for Wikipedia and some other sites a little while ago, so it seems plausible that there might be some hope for reconciliation and cooperation in the future. At least we can all hope.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    9. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FSFs work isn't about license freedom, it's about software freedom. It would be a legal nightmare with 2000 somewhat compatible OSS licences. FSF have a few very good ones, they are right to promote them.

    10. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by ais523 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even Creative Commons suggest that their licenses aren't used for code; they simply aren't designed to apply to it well, and Creative Commons don't suggest that you use licenses for situations they'd be inappropriate for. (On the other hand, you can meaningfully GPL an image, but only if the image has some sort of equivalent to source code, which would rather depend on how the image was created; this may be a bad idea for other reasons, though.)

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    11. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      Of course it isn't. It's a different licence because the GPL is not appropriate for documentation. If it were GPL compatible, there would be no need for it as you could just use the GPL.

    12. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by tao · · Score: 1

      I find it quite handy to be able to have source code snippets in the documentation (even when these "snippets" a long enough to be copyrightable and thus subject to the license), or generate documentation from the source code.

      And if you'd bothered to read the quote in the parent post, you might've noticed the quote about not using CC-licenses because they're not compatible with the GPL. So pray tell, why the hypocrisy of advising against using a CC license for documentation (based on not being GPL compatible) when the GFDL isn't GPL compatible either?

    13. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Step away from the INTERCAL compiler and come with these nice young men in their clean white coats...

      --
      Not a sentence!
    14. Re:On the topic of choosing a CC license: by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      Looks to me like it says "since it is incompatible with the GNU GPL and with the GNU FDL." So it isn't saying "don't use it because it is incompatible with the GPL."

  2. Copyright Loophole by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 0

    Your brain made an unauthorized copy of my work in your memory. Therefore, I may sue you for copyright infringement.

    1. Re:Copyright Loophole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we eventually fuse computers with our brains this will be a serious issue.

    2. Re:Copyright Loophole by sorak · · Score: 1

      When we eventually fuse computers with our brains this will be a serious issue.

      So, we may one day see the day when a laws is passed requiring us to disable our eidetic memory chip when reading, watching movies, or enjoying any copyrighted work? I can almost see that happening.

  3. This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Notice how they never mentioned once the BSD license, arguably the most free license there is in the world.

    The whole premise of this exercise is ridiculous.

    1. Re:This Is Ridiculous by kyz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why would they?

      If you want "true freedom", put your software in the public domain.

      If you want BSD levels of freedom, the Apache license is better.

      --
      Does my bum look big in this?
    2. Re:This Is Ridiculous by bky1701 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Free for developers looking to make closed derivative works. Not free for society, other developers, and certianly not users.

      If you want it to be "free," just go public domain it. GPL is about actually keeping software free, not providing a toolkit to proprietary developers.

    3. Re:This Is Ridiculous by maxwell+demon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What is the advantage of the BSD license over the Apache license (which they did mention)?

      But it is not ridiculous anyway. It details what they think about how software should be licensed in order to further their goals.
      Now your goals may be different to their goals, so the advice doesn't fit your goals. So what? You may not share the goals, but the article isn't about the goals, but how to reach them. It would be ridiculous if the advice obviously did not further their(!) goals. But it is totally irrelevant if they further your goals (except if your goals coincide with theirs). If you don't share their goals, then this article is not for you.

      Of course you can argue whether their goals are right. But that's a different topic, unrelated to the question how to reach them.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    4. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      FTFA:

      In these special situations where copyleft is not appropriate, we recommend the Apache License 2.0. This is a permissive, non-protective software license that has terms to prevent contributors and distributors from suing for patent infringement.

      To repeat: Apache 2.0 better than BSD because: patent protection

    5. Re:This Is Ridiculous by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Informative

      What is the advantage of the BSD license over the Apache license (which they did mention)?

      Simplicity. OpenBSD rejects Apache 2.0 licensed code from the base system, because the license is so complex that you can't expect developers without legal training to understand it. I've read the Apache 2.0 license a few times, and I'm still not sure I could answer with 100% certainty what I can and can't do with the code.

      Perhaps more importantly, the Apache 2.0 license is incompatible with GPLv2 code. This means that you can not mix code under these two licenses in the same codebase. To give a concrete example of when this has been a problem for me, I wanted to index PDFs using code derived from Poppler (derived from xpdf, GPLv2) and Apache Lucene (Apache 2) - this was not possible without jumping through hoops, such as separating the code into two independent programs that could be used together. If either piece of code had been BSDL, then this would have been much easier.

      The interaction between the GPL and APSL code here made it harder for me to write Free Software. In the end, I just bumped that project down my to-do list and hacked on BSDL stuff instead.

      It would be ridiculous if the advice obviously did not further their(!) goals. But it is totally irrelevant if they further your goals (except if your goals coincide with theirs). If you don't share their goals, then this article is not for you.

      TFA purports to be advice. Advice should be telling people how to reach their goals, not yours. If someone's goals don't agree with yours, then the polite thing to do is refuse to give them advice, not give them bad advice.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:This Is Ridiculous by joib · · Score: 2

      If someone's goals don't agree with yours, then the polite thing to do is refuse to give them advice, not give them bad advice.

      So the FSF should not put up a web page explaining which licenses they recommend and why, because someone on the Internet might disagree? Seriously?

    7. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA purports to be advice. Advice should be telling people how to reach their goals, not yours. If someone's goals don't agree with yours, then the polite thing to do is refuse to give them advice, not give them bad advice.

      That's absurd. It's a publically posted statement of the FSF's position on certain questions. It can't possibly be tailored to the goals of any random person who migth read it without being an insanely complex decision tree. You might as well say that the government shouldn't post advice against smoking because "what if if I've been sentenced to death and want to have a last smoke before I die - I don't care about lung canacer, they should worry about my goals". If you don't care about the opinions of the FSF then don't read them. If you do read them then what you're going to get are the positions of the FSF.

    8. Re:This Is Ridiculous by jfrelinger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Free for developers looking to make closed derivative works. Not free for society, other developers, and certianly not users.

      Just because someone makes a closed fork, doesn't mean the original disappears. The original is still there and still free for users, still free for other developers, and society. Your statement is pure copyleft FUD.

      If you want it to be "free," just go public domain it. GPL is about actually keeping software free, not providing a toolkit to proprietary developers.

      The whole reason the BSD license exists is to explicitly provide protections to the original author that public domain doesn't explicitly provide, like indemnity to lack of fitness, warranty etc.

    9. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because the BSD license is just a little bit too naive for a world in which not everything is kittens, sunflowers and kumbaya-singing hippies. ;) (Which I don't have anything against per se.)

      As it is so free, that it allows the licensee to hang you by your own license. (TiVoization)

      I, for one, think that the only thing that's actually 100% free, is no license at all. (I.e. in harmony with actual reality, in which there is no property of ideas)
      Even using a license at all, already validates the "IP" delusion. And any terms at all, are obviously less free than no terms at all.

      So GNU is, sadly, validating the very position they oppose. (A common mistake of people not trained in social dynamics. [Keyword: reality dominance]) But at least it's, so your own works don't fall into the trap too.

      Why anyone would use a license, that does nothing to protect you, but still validates the "IP" delusion... in essence doing only harm at no gain... is therefore beyond me.
      If I had the BSD license mindset of wanting 100% freedom (which, in fact, I strongly do!), I'd choose no license at all.

      (Ok, in reality, I only have one term you have to agree to:

      I agree, that "intellectual property" (including, but obviously not limited to, DRM, copyright, trademarks, patents and DRM again) is a delusion, which in physical reality does not exist. Hence, if I ever acknowledge or believe in its existence, I will lose all freedom over these works/information/ideas retroactively for all time.

      :)

    10. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as "public domain" in many countries so public domain is NOT free. It's just talking stuff without permission and depending on where you are in the world thats ok. But free should me "free for everyone". Thats why BSD and the WTFPL have their use

    11. Re:This Is Ridiculous by djmurdoch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the Apache 2.0 license is incompatible with GPLv2 code.

      I think they see that as a feature, not a bug. The FSF really wants everyone to upgrade to GPLv3 (which is also incompatible with GPLv2).

    12. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the standard rap (how, *cough* Insightful), but you failed to see the point. But what is the point of some recommendation beyond your own license, when your choices are politically motivated? Indeed this exercise is without value.

    13. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apache 2 license is not compatible with GPLv2.

    14. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Skapare · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This (GPL vs BSD) is where the fork in the road is. It depends on whether you want your code to be widespread one or or widespread the other way. In the GPL case, your code won't be used in certain products where they can't open the whole thing. In the BSD case, it can be used everywhere, but there's no obligated to release source for what it gets added to. You have to decide, for code you create, which way you want it to go. I recently switched to BSD for my library code, and staying with GPL for complete programs.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    15. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      If you want BSD levels of freedom, the Apache license is better.

      Except for it's incompatibility with GPLv2 which is still far more prevelant in use than GPLv3 especially with legacy code?

    16. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      What is the advantage of the BSD license over the Apache license (which they did mention)?

      Compatibility with the GPLv2 which still makes up the vast majority of FOSS code especially things like the Linux kernel.

    17. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free for developers looking to make closed derivative works. Not free for society, other developers, and certianly not users.

      If you want it to be "free," just go public domain it. GPL is about actually keeping software free, not providing a toolkit to proprietary developers.

      Except that some legal jurisdictions don't recognise the public domain: this has caused the author of SQLite (and the people that want to use his code) much grief. The BSD/MIT license is the license with the fewest about of restrictions:

      Copyright (C) [year] by [copyright holders]

      Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
      of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
      in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
      to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
      copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
      furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

      The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
      all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

      THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
      IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
      FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
      AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
      LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
      OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
      THE SOFTWARE.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License

    18. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Will+Fisher · · Score: 1

      Look at SQLite. It's used _everywhere_ these days. Their own list is only a small segment of it's pervasiveness. I'm a programmer for a large company, and I use it in internal software I develop as part of my job.

      Has SQLite made the world a better place? Definitely.
      Moreso than a GPL equivalent would have? Of course.
      Have they got the full credit they deserve? Perhaps not.

      Of course, BSD vs GPL is a matter of personal preference, but after all, how is using SQLite in a proprietary program any different from using Linux in proprietary hardware? I don't see a philosophical difference. It's not as if anyone is taking SQLite, modifying it, and selling their modified copy. Who'd buy it when SQLite is so good?

    19. Re:This Is Ridiculous by khallow · · Score: 1

      And what will happen to the original project when everyone simply piggybacks off of it trying to make a quick buck instead of contributing to it in a way everyone can benefit from?

      In other words, it becomes more widely used. There are, as usual, pros and cons for this sort of thing. For me, my personal coding efforts tend to be a lot weaker than when I'm doing it for work. I haven't gotten anything to the point where it's good enough to throw at the public. But if I did, I'd go for a lenient license in order to encourage use. As I see it, if greedy moochers are pilfering my public code, that's a lot better than no use at all.

      You statement is that of a lazy developer who wont/can't write his own code and profit from it

      On the other side of the coin, most of the good developers are lazy. I personally would rather stay focused on my primary coding goals than become distracted by extraneous issues (Something which torpedoed a recent effort of mine. I had developed a toy language for another application, but found myself bogged down in details of the language particularly I/O and error handling. I'm currently redoing it in scheme though I still have the I/O issues.).

    20. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Dwonis · · Score: 1

      Except for Linux, I'm not sure that that's true. Most of the GPLv2 code I've seen is actually "GPLv2 or any later version", so it can be upgraded to GPLv3.

    21. Re:This Is Ridiculous by QuasiSteve · · Score: 2

      Free for developers looking to make closed derivative works. Not free for society, other developers, and certianly not users.

      I've seen this argument before. It is true. Anybody, including a business, including Microsoft (oh noes!), can use your code 'as is', modify it, or incorporate it into their own code, and make the compiled results thereof available to anyone they see fit, without the requirement to also provide your source code when so requested, when you choose the BSD license.

      But that means nothing for the source code that you still have and are distributing yourself. Somebody else can take that and distribute it 'as is', modified, or incorporated into their own code. They are free to do exactly that. Better yet - they are free to distribute it under a GPL license instead of the BSD license, as long as they still conform to the requirements of the BSD license (attribution, for example*).

      If you want it to be "free," just go public domain it.

      * public domain tends to completely mean "do with it what you wish" - this includes your renouncement of copyright claims or even attribution. So if you want it to be quotefreequote, use a BSD license. If you want it to be public domain, release it to the public domain.

      GPL is about actually keeping software free, not providing a toolkit to proprietary developers.

      GPL is about making derivative works just as free as the incorporated GPL component.

      If your software is already free-as-in-BSD, it'll stay free-as-in-BSD even when a megacorp incorporates a copy of it into their multi-million dollar government software because your software and their software are two different things at that point.

      Those looking for a middle road might ponder LGPL instead.

    22. Re:This Is Ridiculous by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Free for developers looking to make closed derivative works. Not free for society, other developers, and certianly not users.

      Oh? Where in the BSD license does it say that only developers looking to make closed derivative works may use it, modify it, or redistribute it? I'm pretty sure that the answer is "nowhere". You can do everything with BSD-licensed software that you can do with GPL-licensed software, regardless of whether you are a developer user, or society.

      The difference is that people making derivative works of BSD-licensed software are not forced to contribute back to the project. This doesn't somehow stop the original software from being free. When someone chooses to incorporate the software into their own project, they do not magically acquire the copyright to the original software. GPL doesn't "keep software free", so much as it forces developers who want to use the software to share their developments with the community. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it comes at the cost of some developer freedoms that would otherwise be present. Therefore, the GPL is slightly less free than BSD.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    23. Re:This Is Ridiculous by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      The article shouldn't be titled "FSF On How To Choose a License" but rather "FSF On How To Choose the GPL License".

      --
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    24. Re:This Is Ridiculous by samkass · · Score: 1

      So the FSF should not put up a web page explaining which licenses they recommend and why, because someone on the Internet might disagree? Seriously?

      No, they should title it something other than "How to choose a license for your own work." Perhaps "What license the FSF thinks you should choose for your work."

      --
      E pluribus unum
    25. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Except for Linux, I'm not sure that that's true.

      Not sure what it is true? There are vast amounts of code that are GPLv2 beyond the Linux kernel.

      Most of the GPLv2 code I've seen is actually "GPLv2 or any later version", so it can be upgraded to GPLv3.

      Yes, it could be but if it isn't Apache 2.0 isn't going to be compatible. And I doubt seriously that most projects are going to upgrade to GPLv3 for an asinine reason like accepting someone's contribution using the APL as opposed to just having the contributor use the GPLv2 which makes things far easier. Secondly, my statement had nothing to do with saying stuff is GPLv2 only.

    26. Re:This Is Ridiculous by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      The argument can be reversed in that a BSD developer is explicitely NOT lazy because he doesn't demand free source-handouts from all those that use his code.
      On the other hand, GPL developers may be considered lazy because they do.

      Obviously, both these and your arguments are completely senseless. It has nothing to do with being lazy and much more with (business) strategy and philosophical points of view.

      FWIW, I've released code in both GPL and BSD licenses, amongst others, for various reasons.

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    27. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2

      Are there people going to the FSF web site for advice on choosing a software license, who would expect to receive the opinion of than the FSF's?

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    28. Re:This Is Ridiculous by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      They don't mention BSD for a fairly simple reason: BSD licenses weren't designed to interact well with GPL licenses, and thus tend not to. If you are liable to end up needing software with different licenses to interact, and some of it is using a FSF license (as is likely if you are going to the FSF for advice in the first place), then using a BSDish license is liable to complicate things.

      They have another page which gets into details of compatibily of various licenses.

      If you aren't at all interested in using any FSF licenses (I gather in your case for idealogical reasons), then you are the one being "rediculous" for going to a FSF page discussing licenses in the first place. Go to your BSD-ish reccomended licenses page (wherever that is), and leave the rest of us alone, please. We are trying to get stuff done here.

    29. Re:This Is Ridiculous by icebraining · · Score: 1

      The argument can be reversed in that a BSD developer is explicitely NOT lazy because he doesn't demand free source-handouts from all those that use his code.
      On the other hand, GPL developers may be considered lazy because they do.

      No, they don't. Why do people keep saying this? The GPL does not force anyone to contribute code to the original project even if they distribute modified versions.

    30. Re:This Is Ridiculous by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Well, and you should have said in that post "I, samkass, think they should title it something other (...)" instead of just saying "they should (...)". People might get confused!

    31. Re:This Is Ridiculous by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      The difference is that people making derivative works of BSD-licensed software are not forced to contribute back to the project.

      This is the key element in my mind and a good example of this is the TCP/IP stack that everyone uses. It's an elegant piece of code yet as a dev, I can modify the hell out of it and maybe improve it tremendously but I don't have to share those improvements with anyone else unlike GPL code, which requires me to share them.

      It's this difference that makes the GPL better for the community yet for businesses, it makes more sense to go with the BSD.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    32. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lying nigger

    33. Re:This Is Ridiculous by dfghjk · · Score: 2

      GPL is not about keeping software free, it's about forcing future software to be like itself. You said it already, other licenses allow for "closed derivative works". Those derivative works in no way effect the free nature of the original software. All the GPL does is limit the freedoms on so-called free code, truly free software wouldn't care how derivative works were used, and they don't.

    34. Re:This Is Ridiculous by lucian1900 · · Score: 1

      Most people don't realise that BSD is in fact weakly copyleft. Read the license again.

      Arguably the most free license in the world is MIT. Of course, nothings wrong with BSD or Apache or Artistic or even GPL. Just get your facts straight.

    35. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Thnurg · · Score: 1

      What makes for a free society? One where each of us is free to murder and imprison each other, or one where the only restriction on your personal freedom is that you may not restrict the freedom of others?
      I prefer the latter social paradigm.
      That's why I prefer GPL.

      --
      The months are just too short. I can count the number of days on one hand.
    36. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many improvements to SQLite have we not seen?

      Correct answer: You have no idea. Which is the point.

    37. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Complaining about lack of freedom to take GPL-ed code closed-source is like complaining about the lack of freedom to steal stuff IRL. If I steal someone's car I go to jail! What a limitation on my freedoms!

    38. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's this difference that makes the GPL better for the community yet for businesses, it makes more sense to go with the BSD.

      lolwut

      Seriously. Your conclusion does not follow.

    39. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      Just because someone makes a closed fork, doesn't mean the original disappears. The original is still there and still free for users, still free for other developers, and society. Your statement is pure copyleft FUD.

      The fork however isn't free in most senses.

      The whole reason the BSD license exists is to explicitly provide protections to the original author that public domain doesn't explicitly provide, like indemnity to lack of fitness, warranty etc.

      Or require contributors listed in ads, you are forgetting your history here. It might be gone, but you can't leave it out of reasons the "license exists". BSD licenses also happen to be file-level copyleft, another thing you conveniently left out (though, most people don't even realise this).

      The whole reason the GPL licesne to explicitly provide protections to the original author and all downstream users and developers that public domain doesn't explicitly provide. Two can play this game.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    40. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      Code for code is a "free handout"?

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    41. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as the "public domain" in a global copyright sense. See here. Specifically: "many countries do not legally recognize the ability to release a work directly into the public domain - for example, all European countries"

    42. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      Have Linux and GCC made the world a better place? Definitely.

      Moreso than the BSD equivalents would have? Of course.

      how is using SQLite in a proprietary program any different from using Linux in proprietary hardware?

      If no other useful changes are made and it doesn't ease porting to less proprietary hardware there is no difference. Hence GPLv3 as the next step up in licensing options. It is still different on less proprietary hardware.

      It's not as if anyone is taking SQLite, modifying it, and selling their modified copy.

      It is mostly used as a library, yes. This is why the LGPL exists and why the FSF and common sense suggest licensing some things under a permissive license.

      Who'd buy it when SQLite is so good?

      People who don't know of SQLite or that what they buying is modified SQLite. People who need a feature in the modified version. If the support is cheaper then from the original author but only given to the proprietary version, that might convince some people as well.

      In the end GPL vs more permissive licenses isn't always a personal preference. There are practical considerations as well.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    43. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      Make that "Moreso than the BSD equivalents have done? Of course." Need to get coffee.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    44. Re:This Is Ridiculous by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Take a look at what Microsoft did with Kerebos. http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mtc-00029523.htm

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    45. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      GPL is not about keeping software free, it's about forcing future software to be like itself.

      One would presume that future versions of software are still software. With the presumption that the GPL is indeed your statement is tautologically false. If you are to argue that the mere keeping is making it non-free you will have to use less circular logic.

      All the GPL does is limit the freedoms on so-called free code,

      That is "all" that every legal framework trying to preserve certain freedoms does.

      truly free software wouldn't care how derivative works were used, and they don't.

      The GPL doesn't care how derivative works are used, only how they are distributed. Let's assume you did mean "distributed", surely truly free software like the one distributed under modern (without advertising clause and such) BSD licenses wouldn't place restrictions on distribution!

      Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

      Except for forcing future source code to be like itself that is...

      And requiring attribution.

      And preventing the usage of language that appears as if the authors are 'endorsing' it.

      But yes, aside from the restrictions that is has it doesn't have any.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    46. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Trelane · · Score: 1

      In the BSD case, it can be used everywhere, but there's no obligated to release source for what it gets added to.

      Unless statically linking (which is more complicated), the LGPL and BSD licenses both allow this. The LGPL doesn't allow for proprietary mutation of the original library.

      --

      --
      Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
    47. Re:This Is Ridiculous by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I think they see that as a feature, not a bug. The FSF really wants everyone to upgrade to GPLv3 (which is also incompatible with GPLv2).

      Are you saying that GPLv2 is, like, FSF's WinXP?

    48. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Asking FSF which license to use is like asking McDonald's where to get a cheap hamburger.

    49. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Does it matter if the fork is not free of the original still is?

    50. Re:This Is Ridiculous by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Aren't BSD and Apache 2 both incompatible (one-way) with GPL 2? So you can take BSD or A2 code and use them in GPL 2 codebases, but then they become GPL 2 licensed, but you can't take GPL 2 code and use it in either a BSD or A2 codebase at all?

    51. Re:This Is Ridiculous by arose · · Score: 1

      Does it matter if the original is free at all? Derivatives being free matters (or doesn't as the case may be) for the same reasons.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    52. Re:This Is Ridiculous by AnujMore · · Score: 1

      Which is why you have WTFPL and other licenses, that really don't mean anything more than "Take this. And please just don't bother me".

  4. Two views of copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't say that non-free software, music, games, films don't deserve protection and then turn around and say GPL'd (other other license) code _does_. Choose one or the other.

    1. Re:Two views of copyright? by bky1701 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't believe copyright should exist, but as it does, support GPL-like licenses as a sort of attempt at perversion of the system to ends actually beneficial to society. It would be stupid to give one side all the legal ammunition by just using public domain.

    2. Re:Two views of copyright? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I think almost nobody says the non-free stuff deserves no protection. For example, if you took the non-free song of someone else and then claimed you wrote it and spread copies under that claim, I'm sure that the vast majority of people here would against you, including those who wouldn't otherwise have any problem with you spreading copies of the song left and right.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:Two views of copyright? by walshy007 · · Score: 2

      If copyright were a reasonable length (say.. 15 years) this would not be an issue.

      So linux 2.0 goes into the public domain, all the better for society yeah? People are completely free to make derivative works, and 2.0 is rather useless by todays standards. Whereas more recent works like 2.6 are still protected.

      Windows 95 is then also public domain, especially useful if someone has the source code locked away somewhere (which would also expire from copyright) so it could be released to further the reverse engineering efforts of wine.

      Meanwhile, all the music from the 80's is now free to be remixed and new creative works made.

      I don't see the downside, 15 years is more than enough to make back money on your investment.

    4. Re:Two views of copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The GPL is not a 'perversion' of copyright. It allows authors to exert control over the work by taking advantage of copyright laws just like every other license does.

      Nowhere in copyright code is profit mentioned, or proprietary. That businesses have devised ways to earn a profit from it doesn't mean that author with different goals are a 'perversion'.

      You cannot be anti-copyright and pro-GPL at the same time and retain intellectual honesty. You are either for government enforced artificial scarcity or you are not.

    5. Re:Two views of copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is not neccessarilly any contradiction in being pro-GPL and anti-copyright at the same time.

      To make a car analogy, it's like being for mandatory safety standards in cars, and at the same time wanting to outlaw cars altogether.

      The GPL vs copyright debate is interesting, because of the whole source code / binary code dichotomy. The GPL is all about ensuring that everybody who redistributes GPLed code plays by the same rules, also allowing free redistrubition of their derivative work, and - significantly - the source code.

      A world without copyright means that this mandatory redistribution of source code in combination with binary code would not be possible. But the other goals of the GPL would still be met, ensuring that nobody can make a derivative work of your software and then limit its redistribution.

      Depending on which goals of the GPL you find more important, you can be pro-GPL and still anti-copyright.

      You can even be pro-GPL and anti-copyright even if you think software freedom - the freedom to modify software is important. One possible solution, proposed by Richard M Stallman himself, would be to abolish copyright, and institute a regime where anybody who wishes to distribute software in binary form must either distribute source code as well, or submit the source code into escrow, to be released to anybody after a period of N years. This would apply to proprietary software as well. (The principle is not entirely unheard of, in Sweden for example, anybody publishing a printed work must submit a copy to the Royal National Library, so that it may be archived.)

  5. Article summary by pedantic+bore · · Score: 0

    Use some variant of the GPL, or at least something that's copyleft. Use the Apache license if you just can't use GPL for some insurmountable reason. There are no other licenses.

    Pretty much what one would expect from FSF.

    --
    Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
    1. Re:Article summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      One of the first paragraphs:

      "When you contribute to an existing project, you should usually release your modified versions under the same license as the original work. It's good to cooperate with the project's maintainers, and using a different license for your modifications often makes that cooperation very difficult. You should only do that when there is a strong reason to justify it."

      That's a key part of what they advocate and very different from the attitude that you attribute to them.

      When they're talking about using a license for a new software project though, of course they recommend their own. It's specifically made to be the way they want it to be.

    2. Re:Article summary by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      Then why should we even talk about their recommendations? Microsoft recommends that you run a Windows operating system. The company that makes your toothpaste recommends that you use their toothpaste. Who the fuck cares? It's just self-promotion.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    3. Re:Article summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why should we even talk about their recommendations?

      Whether you want to talk about their recommendations is up to you - I don't care whether you do or not. For people who are interested in knowing what the FSF's opinions are on licensing more broadly than just "I'm making my own software project from scratch and wondered what license to use" then there is more in this document than just that. But it is still a pretty light document - if you're adding code to someone else's project, use the same license as them, if you're starting your own software project use the GPL, if you're writing documentation use GFDL, if you're adding other sorts of copyrightable material (graphics, sounds etc) use the same license as for the code. That's about it. If I was in charge of accepting submissions then this wouldn't make it through but it's silly to pretend that ALL they say is that you should use GPL for software projects created from scratch. There is a broader position here that some people may be interested in and for those that aren't - might I suggest moving on to a different article?

  6. No BSD by gclef · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I guess it's predictable that the FSF wouldn't be in favor of BSD-style licenses, but if they're going to mention things like the Apache license, they should include the BSD license. BSD is not mentioned anywhere in their guide...which is a shame. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a valid license, and should be included in the decision tree for choosing a license.

    1. Re:No BSD by Ailure · · Score: 1

      "The second is projects that implement free standards that are competing against proprietary standards, such as Ogg Vorbis (which competes against MP3 audio) and WebM (which competes against MPEG-4 video). For these projects, widespread use of the code is vital for advancing the cause of free software, and does more good than a copyleft on the project's code would do."

      They don't spell it out, but they do imply that there is cases where BSD-style licenses is valid.

    2. Re:No BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Five FSF licenses and the Apache license does not count for an overview of all the free software licenses out there. They intentionally glossed over the BSD license because it provides more freedom to developers and doesn't require copyright assignment to the FSF, period.

    3. Re:No BSD by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      True, I think that after the GPL, BSD is the most commonly known one.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    4. Re:No BSD by Qubit · · Score: 1

      They intentionally glossed over the BSD license because it provides more freedom to developers and doesn't require copyright assignment to the FSF, period.

      "more freedom" == the same nebulous debate that /. has every fortnight between a permissive license and the GPL.

      And none of the licenses that they mentioned "require copyright assignment" to the FSF or any other entity. I can't think of a single FOSS license that specifies that in the license proper.

      C'mon, Anonymous Troll, at least pick a fight that requires me to fire up more than a couple of brain cells.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    5. Re:No BSD by mikael_j · · Score: 2

      Yes, I was just about to make my own post about how this is clearly biased in favor of FSF licenses.

      BSD is one of the more popular open source licenses out there yet the FSF consistently either pretends it doesn't exist or tells people the GPL is better.

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    6. Re:No BSD by Qubit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      if they're going to mention things like the Apache license, they should include the BSD license....Whether you agree with it or not, it's a valid license, and should be included in the decision tree for choosing a license.

      I mean look at it this way: This is the FSF's cheat-sheet decision tree for people to choose a Free Software license. You could easily compare this document with that page that Creative Commons has to help people choose a Free Culture license.

      Now I don't have (read: I'm too lazy to go look up the url right now) the CC page memorized, but last I remembered they only put a few of their CC licenses on there. There wasn't any CC0 listed, and I don't remember the CC-GPL or the Remix license (not sure if that latter license is even being promoted by them anymore).

      If the FSF's target is people who don't geek out on the particular nuances of "distribute" vs "convey" in a FOSS license, then they aren't going to give someone a complete primer on all licenses. Remember that this document is designed as a tool for choosing a license, not working with existing licenses. Sure, if I had to educate a bunch of software developers about FOSS licenses I would probably start with the GPL, then move to BSD (3-clause, natch), MIT, Apache, and maybe sprinkle in some cautionary tales about weak or incompatible licenses. But that ain't the game here.

      It's obvious why the FSF chose the Apache 2.0 license as their default permissive license

      1. It's well written by Real Laywers
      2. It offers some patent protection
      3. It's GPLv3-compatible

      Sure, the new BSD and MIT licenses are shorter, but they don't offer developers and end-users the same kinds of structured protections that are available in the GPLv3 and Apache 2.0. And that's what the FSF is designed to promote.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    7. Re:No BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I already posted this above... but it deserves repeating

      FTFA:

      In these special situations where copyleft is not appropriate, we recommend the Apache License 2.0. This is a permissive, non-protective software license that has terms to prevent contributors and distributors from suing for patent infringement.

      To repeat: Apache 2.0 better than BSD because: patent protection

    8. Re:No BSD by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bullshit. Five FSF licenses and the Apache license does not count for an overview of all the free software licenses out there. They intentionally glossed over the BSD license because it provides more freedom to developers and doesn't require copyright assignment to the FSF, period.

      Nonsense. You don't need a copyright assignment to the FSF to license anything under any of the GNU licenses. You only need a copyright assignment if you want your code to become part of an official GNU project, that is, a project maintained by the FSF. Note that this doesn't even include creating a fork of such a project (e.g. making your own modified version of GCC). Only if you want the FSF to distribute your code as part of GNU, you have to assign. Distribute it yourself (or have someone else distribute it who doesn't want the assignment), and there's no need for copyright assignment.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    9. Re:No BSD by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Shock Horror: the FSF is biased on the FSF website in favour of FSF licences ...

      In other News: the Pope is Catholic ...

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    10. Re:No BSD by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      This isn't just a general list of licenses. They already have that here (where in fact several different flavors of BSD are mentioned). This is their reccomended list of licenses to use for any given goal, and thus will only list one license for each need.

    11. Re:No BSD by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Don't forgot Discordians, though that depends on his excommunicated/deexcommunicated status.

    12. Re:No BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nigger dick caught in your mouph?

    13. Re:No BSD by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      What? The Pope is Catholic! Has anyone told the Pope this?

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
  7. Wow, that's a broad overview by LizardKing · · Score: 1

    Five FSF/GPL licenses, one that elsewhere they state categorically not to use, and the Apache license.

    1. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by LizardKing · · Score: 1

      From TFA: "One case where using a different license can be justified is when you make major changes to a work under a non-copyleft license. If the version you've created is considerably more useful than the original, then it's worth copylefting your work" Trouble with this, is that there has been a number of cases where the GPL has been slapped onto a BSD licensed file without making clear that there is only a small portion of that code that requires adherence to Stallmans creed. Just to be clear, using BSD licensed code in a GPL'ed work is fine - re-licensing the whole file under a more restrictive license is not.

    2. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Also from TFA, in the same section: "To minimize the impact on others, show explicitly which parts of the work are under which license."

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by Qubit · · Score: 1

      Also from TFA, in the same section: "To minimize the impact on others, show explicitly which parts of the work are under which license."

      I'm pretty sure I read the whole length of the SFLC's paper about how to reuse permissive-licensed code under a copyleft license like the GPL, but I can't remember anything in there that showed how to indicate which parts of a file are under one license versus another.

      Maybe they're suggesting that people just do it on a file-by-file basis, but that part seems mostly like a no-brainer (no?).

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    4. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by no+known+priors · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Just to be clear, using BSD licensed code in a GPL'ed work is fine - re-licensing the whole file under a more restrictive license is not."
      Actually, you're wrong. The BSD license allows anyone to come along and relicense the entire file/program or whatever, under any other license, so long as the conditions of the BSD license are followed. Which mainly come down to attribution.
      The same 'freedom" which allows a propitiatory software developer (such as Microsoft) to take BSD licensed stuff and then say that others are not allowed to redistribute without their permission, is the same "freedom" which allows GPL advocates to take the same code and relicense under the GPL. Of course, if the attribution is done correctly there is nothing to stop you from going to the original source of the program and doing what you like.

      Oh wait, relicensing BSD stuff is only OK when you can't see the source code for the end result, not when you can see the source code, but can't use it because of that nasty GPL virus! Oh the horror!

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. The maximum is 120 characters.
    5. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Also from TFA, in the same section: "To minimize the impact on others, show explicitly which parts of the work are under which license."

      I'm pretty sure I read the whole length of the SFLC's paper about how to reuse permissive-licensed code under a copyleft license like the GPL, but I can't remember anything in there that showed how to indicate which parts of a file are under one license versus another.

      Maybe they're suggesting that people just do it on a file-by-file basis, but that part seems mostly like a no-brainer (no?).

      I guess anything which is non-ambiguous should work.
      But doing it on a per-file basis is probably the simplest and most sane solution.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    6. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you're wrong. If MS, under some NDA, gives me BSD licenced source code (for which MS does not hold copyright), they cannot legally prevent me from sharing that code with whomever I want, or claim that I've breached the agreement in any way. Nor can a GPL zealot slap his virus on BSD licenced source code and force me to share the source with anyone who requests it.

      Licences do not transfer copyright.

    7. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main point is that MS wouldn't have to give you the BSD-licensed source code at all, agreement or no agreement.

      If the source was GPL-licensed, however, they would have to do just that, of course.

      Nor can a GPL zealot slap his virus on BSD licenced source code and force me to share the source with anyone who requests it.

      Not with anyone, no, but with anyone to whom you have re-distributed the binary code, if any.

      Also: Zealot? Really? Meh.

    8. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh wait, relicensing BSD stuff is only OK when you can't see the source code for the end result, not when you can see the source code, but can't use it because of that nasty GPL virus! Oh the horror!

      Nerd rage IS the funniest rage.

    9. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by onefriedrice · · Score: 1

      Actually, you're wrong. The BSD license allows anyone to come along and relicense the entire file/program or whatever, under any other license, so long as the conditions of the BSD license are followed.

      Umm, that's not right at all. You seem to completely misunderstand copyright law and licensing in general. The BSDL begins with "All rights reserved," and nowhere in the license is there any statement that grants anyone who is not the owner of the copyright to relicense the work. On the contrary, the license states very clearly that the entire text of the license ("the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer") must not be removed from the source code and must be reproduced if the code is distributed in binary form. The only one who can relicense a work under the BSDL is the copyright owner, since all rights (including relicensing rights) are reserved and not granted in the license.

      Any modifications to a file under the BSDL are subject to copyright by whoever made the modifications. Only if you made significant modifications to the entire file would you reasonably be able to claim it different enough that the whole thing could be owned and thus licensable by you, otherwise only your own modifications are owned and licensable by you.

      So, no, relicensing "BSD stuff" (by non-owners) is not OK, even if the code remains available under a relatively free license like the GPL. Cutting out the BSDL text from header files and inserting a reference the GPL is in violation of the BSDL and is thus a copyright violation. It's that simple.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    10. Re:Wow, that's a broad overview by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BSD license allows anyone to come along and relicense the entire file/program or whatever, under any other license, so long as the conditions of the BSD license are followed. Which mainly come down to attribution.

      No, you are wrong. From the ISC (OpenBSD license):

      Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any
      purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
      copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.

      So you need to keep the attribution AND the license.

  8. well, finally by IZN0GUD · · Score: 2

    Well, finally there is a concise word someone whom we can trust more than we can trust others in the field, and they took their time to clarify information and to teach public. Their contribution is enormous and one can always learn from them, no matter how strong one's own expertise is. I listened to rms last year in Sarajevo, he is certainly authoritative in that field and also promotes very same goals that were my own reasons to get involved with IT in the first place. I, for one, would always back Mr. Stallman's views, opinions and teaching; rather than some Andrea Kempe or D. Brewer who spam my inbox on regular basis. It is very important to spread the word on the copyright and issues behind it; it is crucial for civilization's development and growth.

    --
    .Play.Open.Minded.
  9. Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In Debian, if you release some documentation using the FDL, and if don't specify that it has no back-cover or invariant part, we'll consider it non-free (eg: it wont go in Debian main, wont be allowed to be put on the CDs, etc.). Yet, the FSF doesn't recognize how bad this license is, and continues to push for this broken one. This is really pure stupidity. People are going to release documentation under this license, thinking that it will render the documentation free, when in fact, it's going to do the exact opposite thing. Why can't the FSF learn and correct this huge mistake? I don't get it...

    1. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by MikeyO · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why can't the FSF learn and correct this huge mistake?

      The people from the FSF who I have talked to about this issue took the (suprising to me) stance that they don't consider documentation to be software, and don't believe that documentation should necessarily be free.

    2. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by jopsen · · Score: 1

      Well, you can write a blogpost improving the documentation without creating a derivative work. So maybe documentation doesn't need to be free (as in freedom).
      that said, most projects probably want its documentation to be free.

    3. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't that then make them the NFSF (non-free software foundation)? (Rhetorical question. It does.)

      Seriously, why do people always think, somebody gives a shit about their (in this case "IP") delusions?

      FSF/BSA/MAFIAA/etc: Gnutella, and done. Fuck you! ;)

    4. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Glad we have Debian to keep the FSF honest, then. And I suppose the FSF to keep Debian honest, for that matter.

      If your software is GPL or LGPL, its essential documentation better be considered part of the software as well. You DO remove a lot of usefulness of a software when it lacks documentation, and the non-free FDL does not help ANYONE. All it exists for [in FLOSS-related matters] is out of paranoia that people would remove the manifesto from the emacs manual, or remove the GNU name from the software documentation.

    5. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      You can write a blogpost or whatever re-documenting the software, but if the original documentation isn't Free then you can't build on and improve it, just like you can't improve/modify software that isn't Free.

      I really am surprised that the FSF appears to be taking this stance.

    6. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by petermgreen · · Score: 0

      Why can't the FSF learn and correct this huge mistake?

      I don't think they consider it to be a mistake.

      Reading the GFLD it's pretty clear that the FSF belives that while technical documentation and code should be freely modifiable that their propoganda should not be freely modifiable and further that they should be able to force you to include their propoganda if you want to distribution their technical documenation. Debian rightly belives that everything in debian proper should be free regardless of whether it is code or documenataion (though there is an exception for the text of licenses themselves which is another place the FSF likes to put unmodifiable propoganda)..

      BTW I don't think there is anything in any of debians core rules that prevents the production of a non-free CD, it's just that noone has stepped up to do the legwork of identifying what packages could be legally included.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    7. Re:Yet, FDL is still considered non-free! by JoeRandomHacker · · Score: 1

      Doesn't that then make them the NFSF (non-free software foundation)?

      No, it would make them the Free Software, Non-Free Non-Software Foundation. FSNFNSF.

  10. More of this is needed by hackertourist · · Score: 1

    I recently did some editing on Wikipedia, and came to the issue of licensing my contributions (in this case, photos). I could choose between a dozen licenses, and figuring out the differences between them made my head hurt. The license-choosing process was way more involved than the upload itself, so I gave up and chose the recommended license. I understand the importance of making materials available so others can use them, but does it have to be this complex?

  11. LGPL with affero clause by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

    We're a developer group that is now writing a server library. We plan to use it for commercial projects by putting all the code into the library and creating a thin proprietary wrapper to keep clients happy.

    It's a strategic move to use the LGPL, as if we used GPL then we'd have to sell proprietary licenses. Proprietary people would choose to either:

    • Re-implement their own closed-source version of the software.
    • Buy a proprietary license from us and then not make the changes public.

    This way (by using LGPL) we get to extract as much free source-code from them as possible.

    The problem now comes with the fact that our library can be used for web services. People could make changes to our library, use them in their commercial service and not make changes public.

    I was searching the net and found these links:

    http://stackoverflow.com/questions/731246/lgpl-for-php-applications http://mohammed.morsi.org/blog/?q=node/270

    The 2nd link claims you can just include an affero clause in the LGPLv3? What is your word on this?

    Many thanks to the FSF. I love your work.

  12. Excellent! by JonJ · · Score: 1

    I often find myself wondering what license the FSF would approve, it's not as if they've got some kind of bias or anything. How about tomorrow we interview Theo and ask which license he recommends? I'm sure it will all be very surprising.

    --
    -- Linux user #369862
  13. I pick a different one by damn_registrars · · Score: 0, Troll

    I release all my code under the WTF license. Do WTF you want with my code. Sometimes I don't even bother putting my name in the code, just let it be completely free.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:I pick a different one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you don't put any licence at all then no one can use the code without your permission.

    2. Re:I pick a different one by Bomazi · · Score: 0

      You should always write a public domain dedication. Code with no licensing information is unusable since by default, it is copyrighted with all rights reserved.

      If you want to give your code away, use something like this:

      Written in <YEAR> by <AUTHOR NAME> <AUTHOR E-MAIL ADDRESS>

      To the extent possible under law, the author(s) have dedicated all
      copyright and related and neighboring rights to this software to the
      public domain worldwide. This software is distributed without any
      warranty.

    3. Re:I pick a different one by damn_registrars · · Score: 0

      Did someone piss in your loser-bran this morning? The WTF license is (mostly) a joke.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  14. Flamebait by NoAkai · · Score: 1

    I almost think the FSF published this only to spark a license-related flamewar on Slashdot... Personally, if I were inclined to do coding and release that code, I would probably go with the GPL; If I am to release my work for free (in both senses), I don't want some asshole taking that code and closing it up later on. But I can definitely see why some people might prefer a slightly less copyleft license, so I'm not going to bother trying to change other peoples viewpoints.

  15. Re:LGPL with affero clause by glwtta · · Score: 1

    The problem now comes with the fact that our library can be used for web services. People could make changes to our library, use them in their commercial service and not make changes public.

    How is this a problem? It seems hard to justify calling something Free software if people can't even use in the way that they want.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  16. Why I don't like Creative Commons by no+known+priors · · Score: 2

    There are a few reasons why I don't like Creative Commons, one of which is that they encourage people not to read the actual license text (just to read the "human readable summary"). But have a look at some of the restrictions one day. A quotes from Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported:

    Except as otherwise agreed in writing by the Licensor or as may be otherwise permitted by applicable law, if You Reproduce, Distribute or Publicly Perform the Work either by itself or as part of any Adaptations or Collections, You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action in relation to the Work which would be prejudicial to the Original Author's honor or reputation.

    Bet you didn't know that was in there (no actual bet intended).
    Moreover, most of the CC licenses hardly the easiest of licenses to read, too full of legalese. And which license? There are umpteen different ones, depending on which jurisdiction you want to cover. Not to mention the various versions (Flickr only let's you use version 2.0 licenses, rather than the latest 3.0 versions). Too much choice, leads to confusion.

    Personally, what I want is a simple, short, easy to understand, weak copyleft (like Lesser GPL) for non-software. Does anyone know of a license like that?

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    1. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is just an implementation of article 6bis (1) of the Berne Convention, using the Berne language almost verbatim. The United States are technically a signatory to the Berne Convention, but have enforced that clause only haphazardly (such as in the Visual Artists Rights Act), mostly because Hollywood hates that clause (see the "Asphalt Jungle" colorization lawsuit).

    2. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      What so you think that a licence that people pick so that anyone can use it but they get credit, should allow people to use it to poke fun at them and be derogatory to them ...?

      "... look he wrote this awful stuff, he must have, it has his name on it on a AASA licence"

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    3. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by ciaran.mchale · · Score: 1

      I also have concerns about the Creative Commons set of licenses.

      First, four of the six Creative Commons licenses are not "open source" since they prohibit modification and/or commercial use. There is nothing wrong with that per se; my gripe is that Creative Commons seem happy to let people assume that their licenses are open source.

      Second, Creative Commons do not provide txt/Word/RTF/LaTeX/whatever versions of their licenses that you can download and embed into a book you are writing. Instead, the copyright page of your book is supposed to just tell readers that they can find the text of the license on a website or by writing to a specific postal address. So what happens if: (1) the Creative Commons organisation's postal address changes, and (2) they forget to renew their domain name and a cyber squatter buys it and holds it to ransom for millions of dollars? (More realistically, what happens if in, say, 20 years time, the Creative Commons organisation goes bankrupt and shuts down operations.) Now the license page of your book tells readers that it is licensed under terms that they cannot verify.

      Third, the Creative Commons have gone through 5 versions of licenses (1.0, 2.0, 2.1, 2.5 and 3.0) in just over 4 years and (as far as I know) there is no forwards or backwards compatibility between the different versions.

    4. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This provision is law in most countries besides the US. It makes sense for the CC to explicit common conventions, especially as it tries to not be US-centric.

    5. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      IMHO, CC0 is the only one I care for. It is probably the best license to use if you don't want the "restrictions" of the GPL to apply to the work. It essentially makes the work Public Domain.

      If you'd like restrictions on reuse of your work, that's where the GPL comes in. So the other CC's aren't of much interest to me, unless I need to use someone else's work that used it.

    6. Re:Why I don't like Creative Commons by grumbel · · Score: 1

      Third, the Creative Commons have gone through 5 versions of licenses (1.0, 2.0, 2.1, 2.5 and 3.0) in just over 4 years and (as far as I know) there is no forwards or backwards compatibility between the different versions.

      There is forward compatibility, since I think version 2.0, 1.0 lacked it:

      You may Distribute or Publicly Perform an Adaptation only under the terms of: (i) this License; (ii) a later version of this License with the same License Elements as this License; (iii) a Creative Commons jurisdiction license (either this or a later license version) that contains the same License Elements as this License (e.g., Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 US)); (iv) a Creative Commons Compatible License.

  17. Re:LGPL with affero clause by walshy007 · · Score: 1

    How is this a problem? It seems hard to justify calling something Free software if people can't even use in the way that they want.

    Then put your work in the public domain. After all the clauses in the bsd license still limit your 'freedom' in this sense.

    The gpl and lgpl are there to protect the freedom of users. In doing so they restrict the freedom of distributors. You can 'use' gpl software in any which way you want, but you cannot distribute the software which violates the license.

  18. None by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is my license: None.

    I don't give a crap about some ridiculous laws and political nonsense, which some mind numb idiots imagined.

    It's all rat shit compared to my creations.

    1. Re:None by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

      Since your licence is "none", we cannot see or hear your great creation, because you have not given us any licence to do so. So, you can stick your great creation up your closet and enjoy being the great creator you are.

    2. Re:None by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post code anonymously.

      License: None.

  19. Re:Proprietary EULA by Noughmad · · Score: 1

    Free software is dead.

    Did Netcraft confirm it?

    --
    PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
  20. Re:LGPL with affero clause by Renegade88 · · Score: 1

    After all the clauses in the bsd license still limit your 'freedom' in this sense.

    "This sense" refers to "People could make changes to our library, use them in their commercial service and not make changes public.". BSD does not restrict freedom in this sense. The only restrictions are those 2,3 or 4 clauses listed on the license. The GPL tells you want you can do, the BSD tells you want you can't do (which isn't much).

    You can try to redefine free all you want. If one party loses rights at the expense of the other, calling it "free" is disingenuous at best.

  21. Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by Sasayaki · · Score: 2

    No documentation? Huh. Well, what about fiction?

    I want to publish both a novel and an iPhone RPG under a fan-fiction friendly license. Essentially what I want is to sell stories and games on the App Store, but allow my readers/players to, legally and safely, create Creative Commons, Share Alike, Non-Commercial original stories using the characters and settings I've created.

    Note, original. I would rather not see the whole book reproduced on the web, but I would love to see, say, the whole story retold and rewritten from another character's perspective. Or for a prequel, or a side story, or a 'dark and gritty re-imagining', etc.

    The intention here is to allow other writers to create original stories using the characters I've created (AKA fan fiction), and to publish such as they wish, safe from legal threats. Yes, safe even from ME, so if I go mad with wealth/power/poverty and decide to sue everyone, those who have created fan fiction using my stories can tell me to suck it and die.

    Ideally, if possible, I would also like a canonization clause. If someone writes fan fiction that I quite like, with their approval, I may integrate elements of their story into a sequel, side story, etc. This requires the author's express, written permission and they are more than entitled to say "no thanks".

    Is there any licencing model that covers that?

    --
    Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
    1. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by no+known+priors · · Score: 1

      Talk to your lawyer. Seriously.

      You want a custom license that fits your situation, and the quickest way to get one like that is to pay a lawyer to write one for you. Also, it's probably the best way. Don't try writing it yourself unless you are a lawyer, which I guess you aren't.

      What it sounds like what you want to do is to offer an explicit "character/universe license". Which allows people to use your characters/universe as they see fit. That's an interesting idea. But yeah, there isn't anything like that that I know of. Probably because most free culture licenses are written for software generally. Other types of work haven't really gained a large following for licensing stuff under a free license.

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    2. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why don't you just include a promise not to sue, specifically for the use of the characters and places, names and likenesses, within the work itself?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      If you do it right you might even make money from publicity. I'd be interested in such a license and any game that made encouraging fan-made content such a priority. And not just in the "I want people to write free mods for my game" kind of way, but the "I want to expand my fictional universe" kind of way.

    4. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by hendrikboom · · Score: 1

      It's not such an obscure thing to want. There are a lot of fan-fiction authors. And I think most fan-fiction itself should be published under such a license. I've certainly wanted there to be a standard license like this for things I've written.

    5. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by tepples · · Score: 1

      I agree with no known priors that paying a lawyer to write such a promise not to sue would be a good idea.

    6. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

      None that I can think of off the top of my head.
      What I would do is label it CC-BY-NC-ND, then make it explicit you make an exemption for using your characters or whatever.
      Or, you could go the usual route, and say "copyright 2011 Sasayaki, all rights reserved", and then just ignore/support people when they're all right with you.

      (Of course, if you really expect your project to go anywhere, you'd be best off with a real lawyer.

    7. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's retarded. Them writing their own original stores is completely fair and you can't stop them from doing that. And you don't need a license to say "I want to ask you if I can use this, and you're free to refuse" -- you just go ahead and ask them.

    8. Re:Original works which are fan-fiction friendly? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I agree, but for those people who don't have one and/or can't afford one (since we have established that you can do software development for at least some platforms cheaply enough for this to be relevant) it seems like at least trying to do the right thing ought to win you some points. I don't let not being able to afford legal counsel stop me from getting involved in something. I guess that's part of the joy of not having dependents.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  22. Re:15 years is more than enough by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Phrasings like that are a bit polemic, because for certain titles, it the chops off crispy profits "just because you said so". Disney is of course the famous case, and Star Trek and Dr. Who might be the poster cases right behind them for longevity. On the music side, RIAA has been getting nice sales for 40 years on tons of titles.

    I think these copyright proposals need a "small-profit (ad revenue on blogs) derivative works allowed" clause because tons of people just want to mash up stuff but they have no plans for big campaigns. They just want to submit their stuff to some site for street cred and some $100 of ad revenue.

    The other clause that would be useful is a "retainer" on certain "grandfather" titles like said Disney and Star Trek and Dr. Who paid by the companies every year to keep the big properties intact, but then all the millions of b-list titles then aren't worth it so they come up for availability. Last I knew the street guys hate using top-hits for anything but parodies anyway and that's already almost okay. When they want to get creative they look to fresher stuff, precisely where the revenue=0 for the big companies to begin with.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  23. GPL code in driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can I use existing GPL code from other author to code a Windows GPL driver ?
    Or does the existing driver code from another author need to be LGPL ?

    1. Re:GPL code in driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your code is GPL, then the licenses are compatible and their code can be used with your code.

  24. Re:LGPL with affero clause by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

    You can use GPL or LGPL software in any way that you want, and the user's rights are protected by the licence. The software is also protected from being made proprietary, so that users will always be free from the danger of a proprietary variant supplanting the original via "embrace, extend, extinguish". Freedom does not mean anarchy, anarchy does not provide freedom.

  25. Re:LGPL with affero clause by no+known+priors · · Score: 2

    Yeah, but the BSD licenses are not free 'cause they require you to attribute the original author/s and copy that long text all around the place. If you want real freedom you use the Do What the Fuck you Want License.

    To quote:

    DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE
                                          Version 2, December 2004

    Copyright (C) 2004 Sam Hocevar

    Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim or modified
    copies of this license document, and changing it is allowed as long
    as the name is changed.

                          DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE
        TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION

      0. You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO.

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  26. Re:LGPL with affero clause by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

    You can try to redefine free all you want. If one party loses rights at the expense of the other, calling it "free" is disingenuous at best.

    You are defining freedom as anarchy. Anarchy does not ensure freedom.

  27. The FSF is irrelevant today. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While they had a pretty significant impact 20 to 25 years ago, the FSF is becoming more and more irrelevant each day. GPL'ed software was once considered among the best available, especially given that it was free, but those days are falling further and further behind.

    When it comes to licensing, performance, quality, and reliability, the Hurd never got anywhere and Linux plays second fiddle to FreeBSD's kernel. The only advantage that Linux has today is hype.

    In terms of compiler frameworks, GCC has become a huge, bloated mess. Now we have LLVM as an alternative, which is released under a very liberal license. In many ways it's far superior to GCC, and can compile complex C++ code in a fraction of the time, while emitting binaries that perform very well.

    The userland tools from the various BSDs are much better to use these days than the GNU userland tools. Plus they're available under a truly free license, not the GPL.

    Even when it comes to databases, we have PostgreSQL and SQLite under extremely liberal and free licenses. There's just no reason to use MySQL any longer.

    We can't deny that the FSF and GNU software was once important, and it did help set the stage for the widespread usage of open source software. Nevertheless, its time has passed, and every sensible person has moved on to alternative software that's better and released under truly-free licenses.

    1. Re:The FSF is irrelevant today. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...wha? "Linux plays second fiddle to FreeBSD's kernel"? Have you perfected some form of hitherto unknown amazingly potent form of crack, and taken to smoking it? I think Linux has always been overhyped, and the FreeBSD kernel may in fact be superior, but how strung out do you have to be to think that in terms of "relevance" that the Linux kernel has lost out to FreeBSD?

    2. Re:The FSF is irrelevant today. by Grant_Watson · · Score: 1

      When it comes to licensing, performance, quality, and reliability, ... Linux plays second fiddle to FreeBSD's kernel. The only advantage that Linux has today is hype.

      I think it was meant to be read thus.

    3. Re:The FSF is irrelevant today. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Yes, but he's attempting to shoehorn that into an overall argument that the FSF license is no longer relevant.

  28. Length of the license and its sound by IllusionalForce · · Score: 0

    I'll admit, I've never ever read the entire GPL (or one of its variations), simply because they're so incredibly massive that I just know there's some paragraphs just to screw people over. I refuse to use any license I cannot understand within two minutes, including reading time. Everything else is just plain ridiculous and will never be done by any kind of end-user anyway.

    Because of that, I try to avoid using any GPL code, no matter what variation it might be, as much as possible in my code. Just the sound of GPL makes me run in circles, then crying myself to sleep in a lonely corner.

  29. Similar to Bruce Perens article from 2009 by Gribflex · · Score: 1

    There was a similar article from Bruce Perens a few years back: http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/02/16/1633200/How-Many-Open-Source-Licenses-Do-You-Need

    He describes his reasons differently, but arrives at the same conclusions. For those of you worried about the missing option of the BSD license, he does talk about this a little bit. But only a little bit -- it's quite a short article. Worth a read for an alternate take of the same point of view.

  30. They do mention permissive licences: Apache by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 2

    If you want a permissive licence, use the Apache 2.0 licence.

    FSF's doc says this.

    I concur. Apache serves the purpose that permissive licences can serve, plus it contains patent protections:

    http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Patent_clauses_in_software_licences#Apache_License

    1. Re:They do mention permissive licences: Apache by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      Yes, and the FSF recommends the Apache 2.0 because of a desire to push people to move to GPLv3 since Apache 2.0 is incompatible with the GPLv2. Most people don't find picking a license that is incompatible with vast amounts of code under the GPLv2 to be a good recommendation.

    2. Re:They do mention permissive licences: Apache by arose · · Score: 1

      I'd say the patent issues are more of a concern.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    3. Re:They do mention permissive licences: Apache by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Even still, if the vast majority of code is GPLv2 recommending a license that is incompatible with that license is stupid since even most projects at GPLv2 or later are not just going to up and change the license for something as stupid as excepting changes using the APL.

    4. Re:They do mention permissive licences: Apache by arose · · Score: 1

      But for the examples given (codecs) there is usually enough separation through frameworks like gstreamer that the licenses don't have to be compatible. Not sure where it falls for libraries though.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  31. Re:LGPL with affero clause by glwtta · · Score: 2

    You can 'use' gpl software in any which way you want, but you cannot distribute the software which violates the license.

    Ok, so you didn't read the original post or the portion of it I quoted?

    There is just no reasonable definition of 'distribute' that includes 'offer a service that uses the software'.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  32. Re:LGPL with affero clause by glwtta · · Score: 1

    Um, I understand all this.

    The OP was talking about forcing users to publish internal (ie not re-distributed) changes if they offer a web service that uses the software.

    Does no one even read the posts they are replying to anymore?

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. Re: why not use both licenses? by QuasiSteve · · Score: 1

    Why don't you simply use both licenses?

    I.e. the documentation is CC-BY-SA as a whole, however code examples fall under the GPLv3 license and that license applies to any use of them within actual software products.
    This still allows the documentation to be used verbatim, rewritten, reformatted, translated, etc. etc., including the code examples, under CC-BY-SA, while protecting the use of the code under GPLv3's terms.

    Mind you, I'm not sure how code examples in documentation could really fall under GPLv3. Say it's a printed work. I'm new to code completely and I read your code example "print 'hello world';". Now it's in my head and instead of jotting that down in my test program, I write "print 'hello gaia';". Oh dear, I just made a derivative work?

    I guess once your 'code examples' become non-trivial, as you say, there's more of an argument to be made there. But once it's non-trivial, does it really serve as a 'code example', or just a wholesale publishing of the (GPLv3) code?

  35. BSD is safer than public domain by Chemisor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Here in the US it is not out of the question to be sued for your public domain program. The BSD license has appropriate disclaimers of liability that protect the developer from many kinds of lawsuits. Because a lawsuit is likely to bankrupt you whether you are guilty or not, this is an important consideration.

    1. Re:BSD is safer than public domain by kyz · · Score: 1

      Here in the US it is not out of the question to be sued for your public domain program.

      If you have some concerns above and beyond freedom, such as being sued over the code, then why would you settle for a BSD license, when you could use the Apache 2.0 license which requires contributors to give patent indemnifications?

      Would you honestly prefer that a patent troll gave you some BSD licensed code to put in your project, then sued you over it?

      --
      Does my bum look big in this?
    2. Re:BSD is safer than public domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

      (Counter example: SQLite)

  36. So how did Apache2 get on there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or is your post a complete waste of electrons?

    Or do you think that the FSF tells people how to chose the GPL license (redundant) by telling them to chose a license that isn't the GPL?

    Maybe that's how YOU'D do it, but you're just nuts.

  37. I must be psychic by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

    I must be psychic. I knew exactly which licenses they'd recommend before even reading the article, right up to suggesting the Apache 2.0 license if you couldn't use one of the 3 GPLv3 licenses.

    Seriously, the FSF and GNU are the same (heck, all the email links on the FSF page footer are gnu.org email addresses), so of course they're going to suggest their own licenses. Some real news would be advice on choosing a license from some unbiased source.

    --
    GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    1. Re:I must be psychic by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Assuming your goal is to support free software in general and not say deliberately choose incompatible licenses for strategic reasons like sun did with opensolaris then IMO there are two main descisions to be made.

      1: which matters more to you, the patent protection clauses in newer licenses or the wider compatibility of older licenses.
      2: do you want "no copyleft", "library copyleft", or "full copyleft"

      Based on the answer to those questions chose between Apache2+, LGPL3+, GPL3+, BSD/MIT, LGPL2+ or GPL2+.

      I'd avoid the MPL and similar licenses, they were meant to be somewhere in between BSD and LGPL in terms of copyleft intensity but they are very weak in practice (one can just put all ones new code in new functions in a new file and make the modified version of the existing file useless without the file of new code) and have compatability issues with the GPL (though this can be got arround with multi-licensing arrangements).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  38. Original BSD license should not be used by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    The FSF points out that the use of the (original) BSD license is not advisable because of the existence of two version of it: the original with the advertising clause, and the modified without it. Because the modified version is equivalent to the MIT (or X11) license, you should use the MIT license instead to avoid confusion.

  39. WTFPL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe everything should be licensed under the WTFPL.

    http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/

  40. Re:LGPL with affero clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The gpl and lgpl are there to protect the freedom of users.

    No, they are there to protect freedom of the code. Users and developers are left with less freedom than say, a BSD license.

  41. My list would be a little different by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

    Having written quite a few assundry Free Software projects myself, I actually came up with my own list through trial-and-error. It goes like this:

    Basicaly, there are three levels of needs:

    1. I want the entire program to keep my license when modified
    2. I want my facility to keep my license when modified and distributed, but I don't want to restrict programs that use my facility to any particular license
    3. I don't want any restrictions on the license that modified copies of my code have to use

    For 1: use the full on GPL. For 2: use the GPL with linking and inclusion exceptions. Expat's license is an example, but many many libraries do this. Typically, this is just GPL with something like the following tacked on:

    As a special exception, if other files instantiate templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or you compile this file and link it with other works to produce a work based on this file, this file does not by itself cause the resulting work to be covered by the GNU General Public License. However the source code for this file must still be made available in accordance with section (3) of the GNU General Public License

    For 3: use Public Domain (preferably via CC0).

    These are all the licenses a person really ever needs to use for software.

    1. Re:My list would be a little different by AmbushBug · · Score: 1

      For 2, why not just use the LGPL? Doesn't it already include those exceptions?

    2. Re:My list would be a little different by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      For 2, why not just use the LGPL? Doesn't it already include those exceptions?

      Ahh, a great question! I just addressed this in a sibling answer, but it is an important point.

      LGPL only contains exceptions for code that is linked with a LGPL library. The act of linking will not "infect" the client program with (L)GPL. However, there are a couple of other ways that you can get some of the "library" code in your client code. For example, C libraries typically come with header files, which the compiler textually includes in the client source file. Most folks don't consider that a problem. However, if that header file contains C macros, then using one of those macros in your code is effectively taking some of that LGPL code and putting it into your source code, where it is not seperately linked but actually compiled within the client code. It is the opinion of quite a few sofware lawyers that this makes the client code subject to the LGPL too. Languages that have facillities like C++ templates and Ada generics have the same problem if those features are used in the interface to the "library."

      This is why the runtime of the FSF Ada compiler uses GPL with exceptions for its specification files, rather than LGPL.

  42. Re:LGPL with affero clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Implying freedom implies ensuring freedom

  43. Can you name this vast amount? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Not sure what it is true? There are vast amounts of code that are GPLv2 beyond the Linux kernel.

    Other than Linux and BusyBox, can you name some well-known examples? And that can easily be solved with an Apache 2/GPLv2 dual license.

  44. Uncontactable author by tepples · · Score: 1

    The FSF really wants everyone to upgrade to GPLv3 (which is also incompatible with GPLv2).

    Good luck with that if one contributor to your GPLv2-only project disagrees with the changes in the GPLv3 or simply has since become uncontactable.

  45. Just Slightly Biased by JoeRandomHacker · · Score: 1

    This is like the Vatican releasing a paper with suggestions on how to pick a religion.

  46. Software that copies itself into the output by tepples · · Score: 1

    There is just no reasonable definition of 'distribute' that includes 'offer a service that uses the software'.

    Say a work of authorship ("the software") implements a service. If the service copies parts of the software into its output, use is distribution. Examples from a web service include any images, HTML templates, or JavaScript programs included in a page. The AGPL is intended for programs that are organized as a quine, where part of the service includes downloading the software as source code. The AGPL uses the exclusive right to prepare derivative works so that any copy in your possession must maintain the quine feature.

  47. Re:So Microsoft are wrong too? by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    It's not that it's not "ok", it's that it's hypocritical. One argument for the GPL is that people must offer back any changes they make. But if you take BSD code, relicense it to GPL and make changes and don't offer those changes back under the original BSD license.... do as I say, not as I do.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  48. Re:Proprietary EULA by SleazyRidr · · Score: 2

    Now look here, I came here for a good argument, not just simple contradiction!

  49. Re:Proprietary EULA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, they did.

  50. Re:LGPL with affero clause by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

    The gpl and lgpl are there to protect the freedom of users.

    Actually that is not totally correct. GPL and LGPL protects the copyright holder by forcing users, who make changes and redistribute the derivative work, to make the changes available to the original copyright holder and public at large. The side effect is that the forced disclosure of source code required by the GPL and LGPL benefits more people since it allows for forks and continuation of development even if the copyright holder no longer supports said code.

    It's a subtle but potent distinction. The original copyright holder wanted his/her code to be available to the public and have it to include all improvements made by others. The GPL forces the user to respect the copyright holder's wishes. The problem with websites using modified GPLv2 code is that it doesn't fully protect the copyright holder's intent. The public at large still use the modified code since the difference between running on a remote server and running it on your local machine is inconsequential since you still have access to the results of the code. Because the executable code is not being distributed, the copyright holder and public at large don't have access to the modifications being used by the website. GPLv3 fixes this oversight and strengthens the copyright holder's intent of keeping the source code available.

    --
    These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
  51. Write a universe bible and license it NC by tepples · · Score: 1

    Essentially what I want is to sell stories and games on the App Store, but allow my readers/players to, legally and safely, create Creative Commons, Share Alike, Non-Commercial original stories using the characters and settings I've created.

    My suggestion: Write a universe bible (or an abridged version) and license it CC BY-NC-SA.

    1. Re:Write a universe bible and license it NC by Sasayaki · · Score: 1

      This is by far and away the most helpful comment so far.

      Thank you very much. If I can't find a better way I will do exactly this.

      --
      Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
  52. Re:LGPL with affero clause by arose · · Score: 1

    Of course the BSD tells you what you can do! If it didn't copyright would prevent most of what the license explicitly allows.

    --
    Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  53. Not the GFDL, God no, not the GFDL! by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    The GFDL is possibly one of the worst licenses ever. The only reason it has not been justifiably buried at the bottom of a swamp with "MISERABLE FAILURE" burnt into its forehead with a soldering iron is because Wikipedia used to use it. Wikipedia used it because Nupedia used it. Nupedia used it only because the CC licenses hadn't been invented yet.

    Literally no one understands how to reuse GFDL content safely, including the FSF. I sent a query about how it applies to aggregates; three months later, the FSF cut'n'pasted their "we have no idea either" response, suggesting you read the license text and consult your attorney. Given Wikimedia's attorney at the time was Mike Godwin and it made his head hurt too, this strongly suggests no-one left at the FSF wants to think about this thing. (They finally clarified this particular issue in GFDL 1.3.)

    In the context of mirroring a widely-edited wiki or a page thereof, its terms are difficult to follow, legally unclear and may be technically impossible to comply with in a comparable degree of safety to the GPL or CC by-sa. (Every copy must have the full 23 kilobytes of licence text attached, about seven pages of single-spaced 12 point. This is not so good for single articles or photographs, and Internet video is likely impossible to reproduce under the GFDL in legal safety. This is, of course, the easiest term of the GFDL to obey. CC by-sa allows the license to be named by reference.) And don't even ask about images.

    Before Wikimedia went Creative Commons, tedious nerds would frequently claim that any given reuser of Wikipedia content was technically violating the GFDL no matter what shrubberies they obtained (thus putting off quite a lot of reusers). The Debian project classes it as a "non-free" license because its terms are unclear and onerous in practice.

    Use CC by-sa, CC-by or Public Domain, like everyone else in the whole goddamn free content world does. Don't use GFDL for the same reason you don't use shitty home-rolled software licenses that may be technically free/open but are deliberately incompatible with everything.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  54. Same as Bruce Perens by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

    Interestingly, another response pointed out a blog post from Bruce Perens, where he (independenly) came up with the exact same taxonomy I listed above.

    We really only differed in the licenses we picked for the three types of projects. We both picked GPL for our most tied down license. For what he called "gift code", he (like the FSF) picked the Apache license, where I use Public Domain (CC0). From a legal liability standpoint, I'm willing to admit that he and the FSF have a good point on that one. I'm hardly someone worth suing, but they certianly are, and probably need the extra protection.

    For the intermediate level, he picked LGPL, whereas I use GPL with exceptions. On this one, I'm pretty sure Bruce has it wrong. LGPL works OK for this purpose if your library is written in C, with no macros in its client header files. However, if your library has client-included macros, or is written in a language that supports generic programming (eg: C++ templates or Ada generics), then LGPL is no different that GPL. With either, some of the facility's code gets "included" in the client code, rendering the whole program LGPL. This is why the FSF version of the Ada compiler uses GPL with exceptions instead of LGPL. Bruce, if you are reading this, I'm curious about your opinon on it.

  55. Re:LGPL with affero clause by walshy007 · · Score: 1

    the BSD tells you want you can't do (which isn't much).

    It's still a restriction, and so therefore, not 'free' if we are going to be pedantic like you want to be.

    Complete freedom (public domain and lesser extent bsd) gives the ability to cut off freedom from others.

    The gpl is seen as the greater benefit for everyone, allowing all to be free to do what they wish with the code except deny the same freedom to others.

    That you cannot deny the freedom to tinker from others is itself a restriction yes, but ensures those you distribute to to also do whatever else they like besides that.

    The only developers that it is a problem for are those that wish to be leeches and not share back, and I imagine most lgpl projects are glad that commercial projects can be created from their libraries. With any fixes or new features returned for all who use the library to enjoy, instead of being locked out.

    Basically, do you want to give people freedom to do anything include lock users in, or do you want to give them freedom for everything _except_ that?

    You can try to redefine free all you want. If one party loses rights at the expense of the other, calling it "free" is disingenuous at best.

    If we go black and white with your logic anything at all besides public domain isn't 'free' which is why I said go ahead and put things in the public domain.

    Sure, people might make some awesome things from it that has functionality that you would like, but oh look they kept it all proprietary and you now have to pay for what is mostly your own code, too bad. This is why people choose to restrict the freedom to restrict others freedom to an extent, quid pro quo and all that.

  56. Re:15 years is more than enough by walshy007 · · Score: 1

    Phrasings like that are a bit polemic, because for certain titles, it the chops off crispy profits "just because you said so". Disney is of course the famous case, and Star Trek and Dr. Who might be the poster cases right behind them for longevity. On the music side, RIAA has been getting nice sales for 40 years on tons of titles.

    I see no issue with the original series of star trek going out of copyright, same with all the movies up till '96. The new star trek movie would of course still have another decade left of copyright and so profits can still be sought for it. The copyrights would be 15 years from publication so everything new still has 15 years to make a profit.

    On the music side, RIAA has been getting nice sales for 40 years on tons of titles.

    Yes, lets tax what has by this time become part of our culture, all hail the culture tax overlords. :P People should be compensated if people like their work, and if people do like their work, there is a pretty damn high likelihood they can make some money off it in 15 years. It is better for all of us if our culture in general is not limited by eternal gatekeepers always making us pay again and again.

    The other clause that would be useful is a "retainer" on certain "grandfather" titles like said Disney and Star Trek and Dr. Who paid by the companies every year to keep the big properties intact

    There is no need for this trademark law would ensure only the original companies could come out with things of the same name so long as said companies remain in business. Copyright would allow 15 years for new works to make a profit, and then everyone can copy at their leisure after that. Mickey mouse can live even if copyright were shorter, but if it were shorter we could legally copy steamboat willy. yes we could make derivative works but trademark law would mean we would have to rename things somewhat.

  57. Re:"see no issue" by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Thanks for replying. As you call them, "culture tax overlords", like the money they have been making and are already thrashing like wounded dinosaurs. In their death throes they are getting more favorable laws than ever before.

    So when you "see no issue" with proposing a law that releases works faster than even the 28 year period, you are implicitly declaring a fight with those dead dinos and their profits. On the other hand, I went looking for where it turns into a long tail such that the materials are "unsellable" so that the dinos can keep the scraps of the few signature pieces that keep them fed, while new artists get the treasure trove of otherwise buried materials that are stuck in vaults. Check out Star Trek Phase 2 for one of the best examples of how do the licensing for hot button "IP properties".

    Suppose the term is 56 years, which is the original 28 plus one renewal at 28. So in the proposal meeting you say "Sure, you can still have Star Trek. We want Cordwainer Smith".

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  58. Do I need a license? by dev.kyle.watson · · Score: 1

    I've been working on a couple of android apps and want to make the code available for everyone. I've never worked on open source projects before, but it seems (from RTFA) that having a license could protect me more than not having one. Is that true? It seems scary writing software since it seems I'm reading about lawsuits daily.

  59. Re:"see no issue" by walshy007 · · Score: 1

    56 years is far too shifted in favour of the media companies.

    Remember the purpose of copyright is to "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts," when it is 15 years when someone turns 30 they can create a lovely remix of an old song they heard when they were 15 suited to a newer audience. 56 years means I can create derivative works from my youth on my death bed. This is far too long.

    So when you "see no issue" with proposing a law that releases works faster than even the 28 year period, you are implicitly declaring a fight with those dead dinos and their profits.

    Yes, but this is the only way to effectively shift copyright back to promoting the useful arts. In it's present state the large media companies hold all the cards and effectively limit peoples creativity with their own culture. This is what needs to change, the only way it can change is to fight them. Every individual that realizes this and is willing to do a small part contributes.

  60. Re:LGPL with affero clause by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

    So the FSF have taken a different definition of "user" than you.