Slashdot Mirror


How Citigroup Hackers Easily Gained Access

Endoflow2010 writes "Hackers who stole the personal details of more than 200,000 Citigroup customers 'broke in through the front door' using an extremely simple technique. It has been called 'one of the most brazen bank hacking attacks' in recent years. And for the first time it has been revealed how the sophisticated cyber criminals made off with the staggering bounty of names, account numbers, email addresses and transaction histories. They simply logged on to the part of the group's site reserved for credit card customers and substituted their account numbers — which appeared in the browser's address bar — with other numbers. It allowed them to leapfrog into the accounts of other customers, with an automatic computer program letting them repeat the trick tens of thousands of times."

371 comments

  1. you have got to be kiddinbg me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they were asking for it ( now watch them store the account number in a unencrypted cookie ) gl with the future javascript injection

    1. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by icebike · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sending the account number out in a URL over SSL should not be that big of a hole.
      (Ok, not smart, but the risk lies mostly in the person looking over the user's sholder).

      The problem was allowing the change in the URL without going thru re-validation of credentials.
      Apparently they set a session flag indicating that validation had been passed, and never bothered
      to match that with the change in the account number.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by uberjack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sending the account number out in a URL over SSL should not be that big of a hole

      Exposing an internal ID in such fashion is not only foolish, but very much a beginner error. I would expect this from some half-assed forum software - not a bank. That said, I've worked for the government before, and seen the same stupid mistake repeated time and time again. A salted hash would have been a lot less idiotic. The fact that there was no authorization performed makes compounds the issue, however, and one wonder who these people hired to write their infrastructure.

    3. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      Right, because you can't set cookies with wget or squid.

    4. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Keeping critical parts of the session-state is an absolute beginners mistake. Nobody halfway competent in the are of web-security will do anything this stupid. It is also very easy to spot and exploit. The responsible parties at citigroup should face harsh criminal penalties for this and that includes management that signed off on this trash.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by skr95062 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The lowest bidder.

    6. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by oPless · · Score: 1, Redundant

      It's hard to even get management to acknowledge the problem, even when you spot them.

      1) Spot an Id that's obscure, but knowing that Id means something to the framework that you're using.
      2) Report it to project manager, and in this case it's the Technical Director of the company(!)
      3) Get told in no uncertain terms that you're spouting rubbish, as a 'tiger team' employed by the customer has done a security audit.
      4) Repeat that given a reasonably short amount of time that I could manipulate the framework to drop into an administrative mode with full control.
      5) Get told my PM/TD that I am not to waste my time on such nonsense, and get on with whatever it was I was doing at the time.
      6) Mention a methodology to my colleagues that I might try, if I had been given time (hint hint)
      7) Take a few days off sick leave, after discussing things further with an interested peer.
      8) While away peer follows up on my ideas, and demonstrates it on live app, with a manager who has an account at said institution
      9) Shit hits fan.
      10) Find out that I'm sacked when I return
      11) Profit, sued for unfair dismissal. (Yes it's more complicated than the above summary)

      Summary; People are stupid, PM want the job done as quickly as possible and Directors want profit as soon as possible - results corners are cut. News at 11

    7. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by spydum · · Score: 1

      TCS no doubt.

    8. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by Lehk228 · · Score: 2

      it is entirely and completely bad and serves no good purpose.

      whatever step you are using to "verify" the id passed by the URL is what should be tracking this in the first place, by passing an ID in the url you only open things up for some other coder working on a different section of the system to use that ID without realizing it is not authenticated. unique short lived tokens already make this a solved problem, especially if every page loaded gets a new token as well and is only valid for actions connected to that page

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    9. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by tibit · · Score: 1

      I agree. There were a couple semiconductor manufacturers, whose support ticket trackers had the same bug. I ended up helping out other people who had trouble with support drones. All it took was changing the ticket number in the URL. It's as trivial of a bug as it gets, yet I don't think it'll ever die out.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    10. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the URL could show up in the browser's history.

      Doing anything in the URL is an extremely bad idea if you care about security. We learned this like 15 years ago, what the fuck is wrong with developers today?!

    11. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by turbidostato · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But "the lowest bidder" is the spirit of corporate America!

      Obvisouly it is not that Citibank were criminal morons with absolut disregard about their customers, but that the attackers were sophisticate terrorists (and paedophyles, now that we are talking about it).

    12. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I was asking for it. You fucking dumb shit who do you think gets hurt from this? I have a citibank cc and I sure as hell wasn't asking for it seeing as how I pay APR out the ass and at least expect my fucking card info to remain private in return

    13. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Banks often buy ready made software and customise it rather than writing their own from scratch, and there aren't many suppliers of online banking applications... Also the people writing the software and doing the customisation will be under pressure, and are likely to cut corners etc.

      However i would expect a bank to have hired external contractors to audit the application, and any semi competent security testers should have found an issue like this. Perhaps their testers relied on automated tools, and while automated tools are good at finding the most well known webapp bugs like sql injection, they are useless for finding logic errors such as this - since the tool has no way to know that the account data its seeing doesn't belong to the currently logged in user.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    14. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by datapharmer · · Score: 1

      Yes, *most* banks will, but the big ones (citi, BoA, HSBC etc) usually have their own. Of them the Chinese one appears to have the best security based o what I've seen.

      --
      Get a web developer
    15. Re:you have got to be kiddinbg me by halowolf · · Score: 1

      And lets not forget that CC numbers follow a specific formula that allows the CC number to be identified as a potentially valid number, which will greatly reduce the burden on the hacker to generate potentially valid CC numbers to hack with.

  2. Seriously, what the fuck! by jandrese · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no facepalm big enough to express my feeling at that hack. I'm sure they paid good money to "security professionals" to set that up too.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Funny

      Makes Sony's security setup look like Fort Knox. And that's saying something.

    2. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Squiddie · · Score: 2

      Think of the great employment opportunities now that you know that anyone can be a "security professional!"

    3. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by danlip · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the management actually understands how big a screw up this is. I'm sure they understand that "stolen data = bad" but not what a ridiculously easy exploit this was. If they did understand it probably wouldn't have happened.

    4. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by HeckRuler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Agreed. And this:

      'broke in through the front door'

      It was an unlatched SCREEN DOOR with a missing hinge!
      I wouldn't consider it hacking even by the media's definition. It's akin to asking the teller for someone else's information, and coming back 200,000 times to do it again.

      Whiskey
      Tango
      Foxtrot

    5. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      Yup. Every bit as valuable as being an "HTML programmer" in 2000. And, obviously, about the same skill levels.

    6. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1
    7. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by swanzilla · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can make the same argument for my luggage.

    8. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And yet FTFA:

              One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

              He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

      Wow. Yes, I can see how making accounts accessible via an unhashed URL is really something no one would have guessed would be a problem. Especially when the same technique is referenced explicitly in a recent blockbuster (The Social Network).

    9. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by t33jster · · Score: 1, Redundant

      I can make the same argument for my luggage.

      Wait - is the combination 1, 2, 3, 4, 5?

      --
      Take off every 'sig' for great justice.
    10. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Whoever made this should be forbidden from working with computers ever again. Is there any legal process that can do this?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    11. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by UncleTogie · · Score: 3, Funny

      Think of the great employment opportunities now that you know that anyone can be a "security professional!"

      Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night....

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    12. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      In a radio broadcast in Germany not long ago, the online security of banks was described to be the equivalent of putting the money in a carton box on the street (if you understand German: Here's a transcript as PDF).

      After reading this story, I think the carton box would actually provide more safety.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    13. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by WhoseSideAreWeOn · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard!

    14. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    15. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Yvan256 · · Score: 2

      That so-called expert should be fired immediately for these two incredibly starter-level errors:
      1. that was not a "vulnerability in the browser" at all.
      2. any idiot worth his lines of code would have seen this type of vulnerability coming from a lightyear away.

    16. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard!

      It sounds like something an idiot would put on his planetary air shield. Wait... I think we got this joke backwards somehow.

    17. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by demonbug · · Score: 4, Funny

      And yet FTFA:

              One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

              He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

      Wow. Yes, I can see how making accounts accessible via an unhashed URL is really something no one would have guessed would be a problem. Especially when the same technique is referenced explicitly in a recent blockbuster (The Social Network).

      See, this is the real reason Firefox wants to get rid of the URL bar. Only hackers would directly enter a URL. Legitimate consumers will just follow the link to their account from their Facebook page.

    18. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      ... my comment is only valid if TFS is right about simply changing a parameter in the URL to access other accounts. No I didn't RTFA.

    19. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      They call idiot an expert!? Holy shit.

      Also Zuckerberg's high-speed-technobabble in The Social Network was meant only to show most viewers that he's supposed to be a computer genius. They have little or no idea what he's talking about. Someone with as little knowledge as this "expert" wouldn't have understood it.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    20. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Sulphur · · Score: 2

      That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard!

      It sounds like something an idiot would put on his planetary air shield. Wait... I think we got this joke backwards somehow.

      It worked great for his luggage.

    21. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Well it used too, before the TSA just busted that lock...

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    22. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      In a radio broadcast in Germany not long ago, the online security of banks was described to be the equivalent of putting the money in a carton box on the street (if you understand German: Here's a transcript as PDF).

      After reading this story, I think the carton box would actually provide more safety.

      It would. If you allow plastic bags, then the box could contain coffee grounds. This would be especially true if one has a few trial runs to convince the crooks that the box is worthless.

    23. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sony's problems were down to exploits in open source packages, which they failed to patch. I.e. they were using an out of data distro. Blame buggy open source developers and lazy admins (or the beancounters that wouldn't let them upgrade) for Sony's mess, this however, shows the people that put this together were typical web-weenies, completely ignoring the decades of previous knowledge on how to handle sessions.

    24. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a reason that "expert" is anonymous: it's a PR flunky that has to feed ass-covering statements to the press. Something for the masses who don't know any better to swallow.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    25. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by religious+freak · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm wrong UK based folks, but isn't the Daily Mail famous for BS... or am I thinking of a different British mag? Anyone else have any other sources which corroborate this story? On a quick search, I cannot find any.

      This is literally unbelievable to me.

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    26. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Offline banking is evidently not much better. A few years back, after a data breach, Jeremy Clarkson posted his account number and sort code (equivalent of a US routing number, I believe) in his newspaper column to demonstrate that the leak wasn't as big a deal as it might be - his logic, I believe, was that those two items alone only allow you to uniquely identify the account and deposit money into it, and that there is additional security to withdraw money. The fact that anyone you've ever given a cheque to has these numbers means that they're hardly secret information.

      As you will have no doubt guessed by now, it turned out that anyone you've ever given a cheque to does, in fact, have the power to drain your account. I believe he got off with little more than a proof-of-concept charity donation being made with his money, but that doesn't change the fact that banks are apparently pretty stunningly insecure.

    27. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by hedwards · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean Google. Firefox just wants to do it because Google is doing it.

    28. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Firehed · · Score: 1

      s/fined/arrested/g

      Seriously. That is criminal negligence.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    29. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. And this:

      It's akin to asking the teller for someone else's information, and coming back 200,000 times to do it again.

      WTF indeed, but I'm afraid it's worse than that. 200,000 is the number of correctly guessed accounts, the actual number would have been much higher (although less then a consecutive range if luhn algo checking was imployed)

    30. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by icebike · · Score: 2

      There is no facepalm big enough to express my feeling at that hack. I'm sure they paid good money to "security professionals" to set that up too.

      The hack isn't as simple as you might think at first glance.

      Sending the account number out in a URL is not that big of a deal in an SSL environment. (Not defending it, people looking over the users shoulder and all. It should have been an encrypted session string, or an encrypted cookie so that the user couldn't see how to alter it.).

      But the ultimate problem here was accepting the altered URL without going thru re-validation, without asking for passwords again, etc.

      It wasn't so much a hack as a simple (but gigantic) oversight in the web server security suite.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    31. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

      Single most clueless statement by a 'security professional' in years. Dumber than a blade of grass.

      Now Citi can be entirely and truly embarassed.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    32. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by etijburg · · Score: 0

      "Legitimate" What only nerds and hackers know what the url bar is for. Come on. I have a 10 yo that understands what the url bar is for and uses it. It is this kind of simple thinking that gets developers to dumb down their products. Lets create software for stupid people rather than people with a brain.

    33. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by jojoba_oil · · Score: 1

      Whoever made this should be forbidden from working with computers ever again. Is there any legal process that can do this?

      I was going to mention Kevin Mitnick and just leave it at that...

      But then I thought better of it: If the government has a "legal" process to restrict people from using computers, how do we know they won't abuse it? They seem to have a pretty piss-poor track record with buckling under the MAFIAA's requests. What happens when people start getting "forbidden to use any communications technology other than a landline telephone" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_conviction.2C_and_incarceration) for alleged copyright infringement (of movies, music, whatever)? Just look at ICE's recent domain name seizures; "fighting copyright infringement" my ass.

    34. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Good points...this guy will never be able to do as much damage as the MAFIAA's lap dogs and cyber-terror fear mongers with a law like this.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    35. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by crafty.munchkin · · Score: 2

      You've clearly never done tech support for the great unwashed.

      --
      ... wait, what?
    36. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by ambrosen · · Score: 2

      Not quite, in that with the UK system, those details only allow people to set up a Direct Debit, which can only be used for certain types of Consumer to Business payments, and are automatically refundable on the consumer end, but still makes it worth keeping your account number and sort code private.

    37. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      Famous for think-of-the-children-ism (while featuring scantily clad teen celebrities), famous for railing against asylum-seekers, famous for generally low standards of journalistic integrity. An odious rag for sure, but I've never seen them out-and-out make up a story of this magnitude.

    38. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The only reason to ever link to the Daily Mail is when providing the punchline to a joke. It's the national newspaper of the stultifyingly uniformed angry white middle-class meatbag.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    39. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by jd · · Score: 2

      I'm guessing they used the same security guys that wrote a similar front-door for Hotmail. (One of their earliest security holes was where you could swap your user ID for anyone else's. Including the system admin's.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    40. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Same deal here, except it's more like a paper shredder.

      Banks used to borrow (yes, borrow) your money and pay you interest for it. Now they pay 0.05% interest on Savings, which costs more to print than you can earn from it.

      Since your money is now no longer holding its own against inflation in your Savings account, it's being shredded by the bank. Or rather, it's being stuffed in their pockets, since they are happily investing it in all sorts of things and making record profits on it.

      So, to recap: you're shredding money that they're taping back together and spending on congressmen to keep the scam going.

    41. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by blair1q · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Account numbers don't need to be secret. In fact, you hand them out when you write checks.

      It's the access using the account number that has to be protected by more than "is the rest of the URI formatted correctly and does the browser have a cookie we issued to it?"

      Hashing the account number (and other info) into an identifier in that cookie, then using that as the session ID, and only allowing access to that one account from that port until another session was authenticated on it, would be more proper.

      It's not just the URI that is screwy, it's the whole lifecycle design of the session, and a failure to partition the data in any meaningful way.

    42. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by gweihir · · Score: 1

      It is one of the first things you look when assessing web application security. Absolute standard approach. Incidentally, this also means there never was any meaningful outside security assessment or pentest for this piece of trash.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    43. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      and are automatically refundable on the consumer end

      Good luck trying to actually get that refund. The one time I did, I just got a run-around between the bank and the merchant (it was an ISP who had stopped providing service, but not stopped billing me and presumably other users). I only lost about 100 quid, so I didn't try too hard, but still, I lost most of my faith in direct debit from that incident.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    44. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by gweihir · · Score: 2

      It is a hack as incorrectly keeping state client-side is one of the trivial first things to look at when assessing web-application security. Absolute beginners mistake, but found surprisingly often in the wild. My guess is that the people creating these applications can barely program at all and have no clue where their session state is. But any halfway competent external pentest or security assessment would have found this very fast.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    45. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by quarterbuck · · Score: 1

      More like using the same key in every room in a hotel and the key actually working.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    46. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      The register has a much better story:
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/citigroup_website_hack_simple/

      they actually point out how insanely insecure the setup was.

    47. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet FTFA:

              One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

              He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

      Wow. Yes, I can see how making accounts accessible via an unhashed URL is really something no one would have guessed would be a problem. Especially when the same technique is referenced explicitly in a recent blockbuster (The Social Network).

      I hope he becomes unanonymous after the investigation is over.

      So I can avoid him and anyone he works with like the bubonic plague.

      Cuz he an idiot.

    48. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by JordanL · · Score: 2

      The whole concept of how we use banks now is terrible, because it assumes that the net production of energy in the world, and tradeable goods made from it, will increase every single year at a rate faster than interest and most certainly faster than inflation.

      This hasn't been the case for at least 40 years.

    49. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This exact type of bug was actually in Apple's internal payroll system when I was an intern. I just saw my employee id in the url & was like, "Hmm... i wonder what happens if...". To Apple's credit, IT thanked me & fixed it pretty quick.

    50. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EdIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah...... this was not hacking. That word has been expanded entirely way too much in much the same way Schizophrenia was used a dump bucket for psychological disorders we just did not understand yet.

      Hacking, even in this context, implies there was security to begin with.

      This was not a SQL injection attack. If they were posting stuff in the URL bar then that means that Citigroup's website was programmed to take the $_GET (or whatever non-PHP equivalent) and just return the data.

      No validation, or even a comparison against the user profile held in the session data? Seriously?

      Everything we do is AJAX with JQuery. We authenticate a user and from that point on their user profile information is stored in the session. Every API call from that point forward passes their unique ID along with the action request (even just informational requests) that get validated by our own security processes at the API level, especially before a database call is made in the first place to return data from the appropriate database for that customer/process/application. We validate who you are, what you are accessing, and what rights have been assigned to you, before you get an XML/JSON response document back from us.

      Anything else, is just unwise and unprofessional. By no means, am I or the people I work with superstars. This is just the basics of anybody that approaches a project with security first, application second mentality.

      According to this article, Citigroup was just wide wide WIDE the $*$%(# open. It's not hacking when asking the "question" of the web server does not initiate authentication. Citigroup literally allowed anonymous requests for information by design .

      I would not even prosecute the group. Seriously.... for what? Walking into a bakery where a mentally challenged person was just freely giving away cherry pies? Was it unethical to take advantage of the poor idiot and take the cherry pie when you know that normally it cost $5? Probably. Was it stealing? I don't think so.

      If anything, there should be class action suit against Citigroup by all of the members for gross negligence. How ironic is it that huge groups like this, with tons of money (some of it stolen through mortgage fraud) pay hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and get less value than a small time development group that charges 15k-20k for a small site ?

      It's deliciously stupid that the biggest groups are programmed by morons, and that the smaller websites are actually programmed to be more secure.

      I'd like to say I can't believe it, but I know too many stories where half million dollar websites are running on $50k worth of hardware, with IT budgets that allow judicious use of hookers and blow, and yet they can't program themselves out of a wet cardboard box, let alone prevent SQL injection attacks.

      The wonderful stupidity....

    51. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by farnsworth · · Score: 1

      Wow. Yes, I can see how making accounts accessible via an unhashed URL is really something no one would have guessed would be a problem.

      Is there any concrete information that the problem was that the url was /AccountDetails?AccountNumber=123? I haven't seen any.

      There are a ton of understandable (but still inexcusable) reasons for an organization to subvert it's own security measures. Perhaps this online banking site had a requirement to display account information from two different backends that are otherwise unaware of each other. Perhaps this was implemented using javascript or flash "drm" or "cryptography". Perhaps a vulnerability those libraries allowed the attackers to compute some hash 2 billion times which yielded 200k valid account numbers.

      This obviously reeks of a hacky shortcut of something that should have been implemented properly, but I haven't read any credible facts that it was as simple as you put it.

      Again, I'm not trying to excuse anyone. Just saying it's probably more complicated than you are making it out to be. And this guy was probably quoted out of context and probably was not being understood by the reporter.

      --

      There aint no pancake so thin it doesn't have two sides.

    52. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by RoverDaddy · · Score: 1

      I actually facepalmed before seeing it in the tags. Honestly.

      --
      RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
    53. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Thing+1 · · Score: 2

      Uh, yeah, so your regex had no effect on the input stream.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    54. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The amazing thing is that we passed a law in the US requiring better than average security for online banking. And yet the banks have not yet bothered.

      It's a pro-corporate world. We either pass laws and fail to enforce them, or the regulators are too overworked to do anything, or there's complete regulatory capture. The system is completely broken and too bulky to be enforced or even understood. I think we need to go to a "spirit of the law" system. Trash it all and start over with some simple rules but with the proviso that you can't violate the spirit of the laws either (which would also apply to ethics rules, accounting procedures, disclosures, etc). The spirit of the law would be decided by jury composed of citizens who are neither politicians, executives, or members of any board public or private or nonprofit.

    55. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by nomadic · · Score: 1

      while featuring scantily clad teen celebrities

      Link?

    56. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      They didn't understand because they failed to hire anyone to validate the security. Probably during the big online boom they quickly rushed and hired the first IT guy they met on the street, and that was the last they ever thought about the issue.

      There's only so much checking you can do from the poop deck of your yacht.

    57. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      The surprise is that they tried this on a smart phone and failed to find the URL bar, so they assumed it was safe.

    58. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see two possibilities here.

      Option one is the article was spot on, the "hack" was incredibly obvious, Citigroup is fucking stupid, the "security experts" investigating this are fucking stupid, and law enforcement is fucking stupid. Ok, I'll grant you the law enforcement part...

      Option two is this was an inside job, and the article is nothing but a PR con-job.

      Option two smells a lot better to me. Citigroup is counting on 75%+ of the public being too stupid to understand the technical details. Those same 75% would probably freak out about an "inside job" because they've seen to many movies. Sure, there have been lots of movies in the past 20 years with geeky things being done to commit crime/make money, but they didn't understand WTF was going on there either. Citi would rather appear inept and stupid to 25% than "vulnerable" to 75%. Ok, we fell victim to evil hackers, sorry, nothing we could do about it. Unless you want to grant the FBI new wiretapping powers, but that would be preposterous (and completely unrelated, but would make a good movie,right? or wait, did that already happen?)

    59. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The analogy of a mansion with high tech security that forgot to lock the door isn't quite right. It feels more like entire apartment building had a very high security front door but none of the individual apartments had any locks on their doors. So you're authorized to go inside the building with the naive assumption that you'll only visit your own apartment and not your neighbors.

    60. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by qubezz · · Score: 1

      And the author of the article (Lee Moran, unfortunate name) also says, "it has been revealed how the sophisticated cyber criminals made off with the staggering bounty of names." Hardly sophisticated: typing random stuff in the website URL gets you into other people's accounts. It's just non-obvious that a bank would be so inept.

    61. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Yea, obviously it's not perfect. I've given up on waiting for the media to get any tech-story right. But he wanted confirmation from a different news source, and this certainly qualifies. Plus, despite it's flaws, it's definitely an article which informs the reader about the actual issue at hand, instead of pretending it's some super-hacker doing computer-vooodoo.

    62. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's textbook hacking. It's a clever way to "(ab)use the system. Granted, it's not much of a system. Did the bank not have some sort of independent audit of it's security measures? I'm surprised there's not some sort of legal requirement. I suspect there will be. The cost of which will (necessarily) be passed on to customers. Verified security of any quality costs.

      Stealing someone's password is *not* hacking. It's theft of keys.

    63. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by koreaman · · Score: 1

      So why can't they just say the hackers used Complicated Computery Magic? Why make up a story about how woefully insecure their setup is?

    64. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by ruiner13 · · Score: 1

      It isn't a hack any more than a file is protected on your computer because it has an obscure name. This is no different than if they had left all their customer files on a server that any customer could log into using their own credentials. Just because it was a query parameter and "virtual" file doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it any different. This would have been caught by ANY outside security audit, so I'm guessing they never had any done. They can charge $3 for a 15 second transaction at the ATM, but they can't afford any real security or audits. Just wow. Next up, log in using your facebook credentials!

      --

      today is spelling optional day.

    65. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by qubezz · · Score: 1

      Only hackers would directly enter a URL. Legitimate consumers will just follow the link to their account from their Facebook page.

      You mean by pushing the button for the internet?

    66. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Christopher+Fritz · · Score: 1

      ... my comment is only valid if TFS is right about simply changing a parameter in the URL to access other accounts. No I didn't RTFA.

      Says the article:

      They simply logged on to the part of the group's site reserved for credit card customers - and substituted their account numbers which appeared in the browser's address bar with other numbers.

      It allowed them to leapfrog into the accounts of other customers - with an automatic computer programme letting them repeat the trick tens of thousands of times.

      To be fair, the article didn't state what the expert was an expert of. But I thought the same as the grandparent, and will be forwarding the article to co-workers so they can get a laugh from it.

      Personally, I wonder how many people "looked around" at other accounts without looking suspicious in Citigroup's logs.

    67. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Amouth · · Score: 1

      yet sadly as they keep lowering my vertical pixel count - i'm looking forward to the extra 25px.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    68. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks India, and major consulting group, for getting that job done on time and under-budget! This was such a great idea to use the innerwebs. No more costly paper statements, we can advertise to our customers constantly, and advertise that they can do business with us anywhere, any time!

      I thought it was a little odd that 90% of our budget went to "project managers" holding endless meetings in the states, but it appears to have worked out great.

      Oh shit... well, I guess we can use a small percentage of our savings to give users a couple months of free security service... provided by us.

    69. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by astrotek · · Score: 1

      this is more like the people who leave a candy bowl out a Halloween with a sign that says "please take one" and then they get upset when one kid empties the bowl

    70. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by jonathanjespersen · · Score: 1

      They must have too and missed the realization that Holiday Inn Express makes you a real expert.

    71. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then the managers had numerous meetings, which chipped and mangled the original system into a copromise that satisfied the manager generated checklist.

      Been there, done that, got paid, and got the hell out while I could.

    72. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yet sadly as they keep lowering my vertical pixel count - i'm looking forward to the extra 25px.

      Go to Firefox Addons, install TabScope.
      Right Click in the blank space somewhere in the tool/tab bars, untick "Navigation Bar".
      Restart Firefox.
      Set your home page to Google or Bing or whatever.
      Profit (or not)

    73. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by justaguy516 · · Score: 1

      I have had two citibank accounts (CC and banking) since 2008, and at least the citibank site that I access is fully https and jsp based. The only thing in the URL is https://citibank.co.in/infolaunch/launch.jsp. So, either the US citibank site is completely different or the real story is worse.

    74. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      "Legitimate." What, only terrorists know what the URL bar is for?

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    75. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      It is a hack as incorrectly keeping state client-side is one of the trivial first things to look at when assessing web-application security.

      The URL has nothing to do with where they kept session state, the session hash doesn't have to live in the URL either, it can live in a cookie. They could have had a URL with a session id hash (or a cookie), storing no state, and still be vulnerable to this if they were stupid enough not to check users were authorised to view the pages they requested. All you'd have to do is log in as a valid user, and you would have access to all the info if they have no proper access control, which would not be fixed by your suggested solution.

      This does not have to be about session state being stored on the client-side, in fact it probably wasn't, it is because of inappropriate or non-existant access control.

    76. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EnempE · · Score: 1

      Hacking is a pretty loose term, Hackers generally insist that there is no harm or damage caused by hacking, as opposed to cracking. Perhaps it should be known as what it really is.

      Illegal access
      The access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.
      System interference
      When committed intentionally, the serious hindering without right of the functioning of a computer system by inputting, transmitting, damaging, deleting, deteriorating, altering or suppressing computer data.
      Computer-related fraud
      When committed intentionally and without right, the causing of a loss of property to another person by:
      a) any input, alteration, deletion or suppression of computer data, or
      b) any interference with the functioning of a computer system,
      with fraudulent or dishonest intent of procuring, without right, an economic benefit for oneself or for another person

      (adapted from the European Council of Europe's Convention on Cybercrime)

      Regardless of how few skills were required to perform this action, it is still criminal and it makes the web worse for the rest of us. Instead of laughing this off as lame and ranting about how citibank acted like n00bs and got pwnd. Think about how we got to this point and where we are going. This our Internet, we are going to give this to our kids one day.
      My point is this.
      It is bad that it happened. The internet shouldn't be a bad place. You shouldn't condone bank robbery because the bank left the door unlocked (Regardless of how silly it was). Citibank was the victim of a crime. Victims should get sympathy.

    77. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EdIII · · Score: 1

      This was still not hacking.. until you bring in your definition of dishonest intent.

      Citigroup (not Citibank) announced to anyone smart enough to understand that if you pass it an account number it will pass you back the profile. I am not sure that dishonest intent trumps implicit authorization and condonement of the activity.

      Sometimes it is hard to give real world examples of just how the interactions play out. Basically, what this was is that you could walk up a house and tell a man a number between 1 and 1 million. If you guessed a correct number, he would give you a cookie. Now someplace else, somebody may have been selling those numbers and other people owed them.

      However, that does not change the fact that the man announced his policy that he would give the cookie regardless.

      That is the way I see their $_GET situation. Asking a "question" of a system should always be deemed harmless when it is not inherently designed to bypass security and gained unauthorized access.

      Which, by the way, is my real problem with it. I have a hard time consider it unauthorized based on how they designed the system.

      Regardless of how few skills were required to perform this action, it is still criminal and it makes the web worse for the rest of us. Instead of laughing this off as lame and ranting about how citibank acted like n00bs and got pwnd. Think about how we got to this point and where we are going. This our Internet, we are going to give this to our kids one day.
      My point is this.
      It is bad that it happened. The internet shouldn't be a bad place. You shouldn't condone bank robbery because the bank left the door unlocked (Regardless of how silly it was). Citibank was the victim of a crime. Victims should get sympathy

      This is lame. Super lame. Stupidity at Darwinian levels of proportion.

      I call into question the full level of criminality here.

      Yes. We should learn from this and serious organizations should take security seriously. Security in the last 15 years has been way too much of an afterthought, and not enough of a fundamental base upon which your digital structure is founded.

      I am not condoning bank robbery. Technically, that has not happened yet. What I said was is that it stretches the definition of criminality and hacking because of Citigroup's involvement visa vi their gross negligence. There is more than one guilty party here.

      I never indicated a lack of sympathy. However, NOT for Citigroup. They deserve no sympathy and nothing but our laughter, ridicule, and condemnation. Their issues are so severe in their impact and indicative of a complete disregard or complete incompetence in having a secure web presence. They are not just noobs here, they are a major freakin corporation and have ZERO excuse as to why they did not hire multiple security firms to overlook their infrastructure, software, and procedures.

      The victims are the customers of Citigroup and they should sue them out of existence for any damage caused by Citigroup's actions.

    78. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by naich · · Score: 1

      ... "another expert, who actually knew how computers worked, was unavailable for comment - he was laughing too hard to speak coherently".

    79. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EnempE · · Score: 1

      I 100% agree with you on Citigroup's negligence. The failure to provide adequate protection on the data is negligent and they should have to answer to the ICO in the UK or a similar body. They have broken some laws in some countries too. I seem to remember a case recently where a bank in the US had to prove it had industry standard security, I would see citigroup struggling to show this as being anything of the sort. Citigroups clients suing them to ensure that they prioritise this stuff is probably a good idea.
      I can't really blame the hacker either, It could have just been done to see if the security really was that bad, and they were making it easy.
      I am not flip flopping here, my point is that they weren't actually giving it away, and intentionally obtaining anything by deception (even by pretending to be the rightful recepient of a cookie) is still a crime which therefore makes citigroup the victim of a crime. They did infringe security measures, no matter how lame they were to obtain computer data.
      My beef is with this emerging culture of publishing hacks rather than notifying the company so that they can fix it. I know that it could be considered that the companies brought this on themselves by their attitudes, not disclosing breaches and shooting the messenger at times. It doesn't mean I have to like the wild west attitude that is starting to be revered.
      So to agree with you Citigroup are the bad guys here as well. But the other guy did commit a crime and that makes it not okay.
      I would buy you a beer for taking the trouble to organise your argument, but I have had to cancel all of my online banking and paypal accounts due to the RSA hack and LulzSec publishing passwords :-)
      P.S.
      Do you mean as stupid as Darwin himself, Stupid as the theory of evolution (both of which I am flattered by), or Darwin awards stupid (which I am not flattered by)?

    80. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by frap · · Score: 1

      I'll take a bit of a hole in direct debit security if it makes Clarkson look like the knob that he is.

    81. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banks aren't at all concerned about security. When a buddy on mine was calling on Well Fargo for test equipment, he demo'ed some T1 and datacomm analyzer products and casually demonstrated how you can pick off individual or bonded channels off a T1 with a push of a button and then feed them into a datacomm box to analyze specific modem and network traffic. During the demo, along comes a modem connection from an ATM machine and across the datacomm box display comes the account number and PIN completely unencrypted. The IT manager sees this, recognizes what it is and end the demo.

      So what does the Well Fargo IT manager do then? Bars my buddy's and his company from ever coming on site or doing business with the bank and demands everyone sign an NDA preventing anyone from saying anything. Well, being blacklisted was enough reason to not sign the NDA so I hear about it. Classic security-through-obscurity only worse: cover-up security failings when discovered rather than even do jack about them. I stopped banking with WF pretty quick after that. But Citibank probably isn't any better when it comes to bone-head insecurity.

      This is the banking industry. This is reality. Shysters and they respond with cover-ups when found out. IS ANYONE ACTUALLY SURPRISED BY THIS?

      Of course, you can buy the $5K equipment and then you set up at a exchange box (you know those boxes just off the sidewalk) down the street from any Well Fargo bank pretending to be a phone company employee, pick off their ATM traffic, do re-play attacks inserting transactions and get the ATM to transfer or spit out money until the cows come home. A typical ATM can hold $20K-$250K in cash, depending.

    82. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by bjd1970 · · Score: 1

      Hashing the account number (and other info) into an identifier in that cookie, then using that as the session ID, and only allowing access to that one account from that port until another session was authenticated on it, would be more proper.

      I don't see why you are coupling the session of the user with the account on the client side. The id of the cookie is arbitrary to the extent that it is unique, and the server will have a lookup of what cookie is with what account. It seems as if with the above approach, subsequent programmers could be misled into thinking there is some trust associated with the cookie identifier and enable some reverse lookup backdoor functionality.

    83. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wonderful thing is that you only need to make one mistake. Gratz, you didn't make this one.

    84. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I wonder if any account holders noticed the problem and reported to to Citigroup?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    85. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      Incompetent people use tech support far more than other people. The sample is so biased it tells you virtually nothing about the computer skills of the population at large.

    86. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One word: outsourcing. They got what they paid for.

    87. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is what everyone here should know about Banks and financial institutions. They will take the advice of the "Security Professional" of which I am one and flush it down the toilet. They will trade in security for performance, functionality and compliance any day. In a recent audit I found 138 ways to hack into a financial company's infrastructure. Rather than fixing the vulnerabilities, we spent the next 3 months arguing about how my report was worded so nobody looked bad.

    88. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by JackDW · · Score: 2

      I closed my Citi account based on the very poor quality of their internet banking system and concerns about its security... concerns which I explained in writing.

      Their internet banking system was filled with obviously half-assed security measures. For instance, you could send a "secure email" to customer support - but the email couldn't contain any character that might be used in a SQL injection attack (e.g. quote marks). If it did, then clicking Send led you to an error page, and of course you weren't told what parts of the email were causing the problem, or given an opportunity to re-edit it.

      It was as if they understood that attacks were possible, but had no clue about the right way to deal with them. If anything, it seems I underestimated how incompetent they were.

      --
      You're an immobile computer, remember?
    89. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I completely disagree. Hacking is to make something do something else which it was not intended to do. Manipulating a URL post login is doing exactly that. I will completely agree with you however that the term hacking/hacker has been manipulated and twisted, primarily by the media, to mean Cracking or breaking into something. When the word Hacker or Hacking was originally coined it was originally used by train enthusiasts who would hack their hardware to make it behave differently.

      Now did this hack require an extensive technical skill-set to execute....not particularly. We should however be giving credit where credit is due because these are the first inquiring minds who were able to see the flaw for what it was.

    90. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      I work in IT in banking as freelancer, used to work in IT companies in the past.

      Of IT in banking I say the following:

      There are 3 ways of doing things:
      - The right way
      - The wrong way
      - The banking way

      It very much a self-contained universe (typically, in order to be extended an offer for a job or contract in IT in banking, you must have already had a job or contract in IT in banking) filled with people that have never had had any professional experience working in companies outside the financial sector, so it take AGES for IT best practices to be adopted in there.

      For example, about a year ago Agile became fashionable to ask for in job adverts, but it's clear from many job adverts out there (and interviews I've had) that they're going for it because "everybody else is going for it" rather that with an understanding of "how can it help us".

    91. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by tbannist · · Score: 2

      Similar Donald Knuth stopped issuing his reward checks for finding errors in his books because people were so proud of receiving them that they posted pictures of the checks online. The information visible on the front of the check in some of the pictures was enough to enable someone to steal money from his bank account. The moral of the story? The entire banking system is mostly insecure.

      I'm not sure that much has improved since the events depicted in the movie Catch Me If You Can happened. It seems like the banks don't bother fixing anything until after it has been used to steal a significant amount of money.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    92. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by medicman81 · · Score: 1

      This could have been prevented by any weekend warriors rudimentary PHP and JavaScripting. As EDIII said, this was barely hacking.

    93. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by gregarican · · Score: 2

      I had the same thing happen! My mortgage is through Citi and I kept on typing out these long "secure" messages to them and forgot about the illegal characters. Had to keep retyping. Nice sanitizing!

    94. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      But what do you think would happen to a customer who actually reported such a problem?

      One scenario: He'd be reported to the police for possible investigation of "hacking". (How else could he have uncovered a vulnerability?)

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    95. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by black+soap · · Score: 1

      This is more like, once you figure out how to operate a telephone, realizing that you could just type in a different number, and it would call someone else, even if you didn't find the number in a listing.

    96. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah - all that happened was somebody set-up a direct-debit on his account to donate money to a charity. That has little to do with UK banking as a whole and just demonstrates the sheer awfulness of direct-debits.

      Direct-debits are simply tunnels from your from account to a company/charity - the idea being that you set a default sum that is taken each month. However if the company/charity in question requests more, it's just given to them - no questions, no checks and depending on the bank, no refunds.

      Whats more - if you don't have the cash for a direct debit that's due - you will get charged. So if you have your credit card form the same bank as your current account, and do as they ask by setting up a direct-debit payment (and they always ask that you do :s) then if you fail to have the money in time, you get charged once for missing your payment, and charged again for the debit failing - from the same bank! Double Dipping degenerate wankers......

    97. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Something for the masses who don't know any better to swallow.

      Really, the masses should remember that there are teeth in a mouth...

    98. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Compaqt · · Score: 2

      visa vi -> vis-a-vis

      accent on the "a"

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vis-a-vis

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    99. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol. Even my website, made by me an amateur programmer or whatever you want to call me, logs you in securely and checks the session data.

    100. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The same way you "uncover" leaving the front door open.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    101. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by juancn · · Score: 1
      I have a few friends that worked for Visa a few years ago (they had a small consulting company). They were hired to add SSL to the communications between banks and Visa. At the time, it was a plain socket with everything sent in cleartext through the internet, with hardly any authentication.

      The migrated that to use SSL with certificates for authentication (rather than plaintext passwords).

      I wouldn't be surprised there still are services around sending financial information in plaintext.

    102. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      I suppose you could decouple the hashed account number and the session ID, but why? The hashed value should be unique per session. Making it the session ID means you're not getting in with another hashed value, and you're not using that one again. Although now I think about it, hashing isn't necessarily guaranteed to produce a unique result, while sequential session IDs has a better chance of it. Okay. You need both a unique session ID and your hashed key, and the session ID should be hashed into the key with your account number, and maybe some other salty goodness as long as we're expanding it, although you'd want to be able to recreate it later, in case you need to trace something for technical or legal purposes, so adding a random salt would be a no-no.

    103. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Where is the mod for an informative and polite Spelling Nazi?

      Thank you. I thought I had it wrong when I was writing it, but it was late.

    104. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Hey, the expert is showing exactly how this type of vulnerability can "happen". Having experts like that on their investigation team shows exactly how well assisted Citigroup is regarding security.

      It makes me wonder how many more vulnerabilities as "hard to prepare" as that one are there...

      That, or maybe the "expert" is actually one of the hackers playing a double-prank on Citigroup. After all, he remained anonymous...

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    105. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      I gave up my mod points to post that!

      Anyway, sorry for taking an informative comment (yours), and focusing only on the single French word in it.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    106. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Do you mean as stupid as Darwin himself, Stupid as the theory of evolution (both of which I am flattered by), or Darwin awards stupid (which I am not flattered by)?

      Well.... you would not be flattered. I am a scientist and believe in the scientific method. According to our observations of the world Evolution is a fact, not a theory. All species on Earth are in a constant state of evolution. Sometimes people have misunderstood that major evolutionary changes don't happen like X-Men in a single generation. We are talking thousands, but we can still see this in bacteria much more quickly (which is why we are having problems with super strains) and some species of animals. So trying to disprove evolution by claiming that there are no changes in a single generation or two generations is specious.

      Not all science is impartial. I believe in Evolution as a process. However, as a scientist I must admit that we simply don't have enough data to prove that evolution created Man, or any other specie specifically. That is why it is a theory and not a Law.

      However, again, I think the theory has more weight with me because it is at least based on observations and data (no matter how little) when there is ZERO data to support Intelligent Design or the existence of divine beings such as the Christian God.

      Being a man of Faith, I recognize Faith for what it is. I believe certain things to be true in spite of the fact that I have no evidence to prove it, let alone a method to determine it as a fact. I'm okay with that. What I don't like is when people create such an emotional investment in their Faith that they need to state it is a fact, when Faith and facts are mutually exclusive. An intelligent and rational person realizes this.

      Evolution is the best answer we have right now. Nobody else has given me a better one, and my own faith is not one of the monotheistic faiths that have doctrine and define how the world was created.

      For all we know, an ancient alien civilization was deciding on colonizing and genetically modified monkeys to adapt their bodies over time to allow their consciousnesses to be transferred, or essentially be a new species of their own "race". By the way, that idea is from NASA. Not our origins per se, but how to colonize other Earth type worlds by adapting existing species to be more "human like". Same idea to create species adapted to space travel.

      My point being that we can try to explain the origins of Man, but neither side can fool itself into thinking we have proven it. However, since you vaguely indicated that you not a supporter of evolution, I will have to be disappointing you by saying that I still think evolution is the best idea and theory with sound logic and reasoning behind it, not faith. Theory is not a form of faith either, which is the usual response I get.

      My real honest opinion, since you seem to base your emotional response on my answer, is that you are part of the overall problem. Why we argue and make such emotional investments in arguments about faith to the point where harm others is monumentally stupid. We can't prove God, yet others will delude themselves and warp faith into fact, and yet more others will delude themselves into impartiality about their hatred of religion and support of science.

      The whole thing is tragic and why we don't deserve what we have, or to be out in space spreading our species.

      I might be making a mountain out of mole hill here and misinterpreting your seemingly emotional investment and judgement against me based on my answer. If so, I apologize in advance.

      In any case, can't we just agree that we both don't know the truth, that we can still be friends, and we can still cooperate on making the world a place of peace?

    107. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

      Single most clueless statement by a 'security professional' in years. Dumber than a blade of grass.

      Now Citi can be entirely and truly embarassed.

      you are charged for defaming a blade of grass.

    108. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by EnempE · · Score: 1

      I do believe this is a mountain out of a mole hill. That is what the internet is for though. The internet itself could be considered a mountain out of a mole hill.
      I consider you a rational person, able to construct an argument whom presented their opinion. If you are offended by that then i apologise

      I am emotionally invested in the issue of computer related crime, but that emotion is not really negative.

      My intent was to temper your opinion with my own and illuminate the subtle nature of morality on the internet

      The reflection on your assesment of my point as super lame and stupid, was to let you know that I considered the remarks as harmless.
      I did not intend that the theory of evolution, or darwin is stupid, merely that if those things are considered stupid then I am happy to have that tag applied to myself.
      That is:
      If Intellectual Value of Evolution = Stupid and Myself = Stupid Therefore Myself = Intellectual Value of Evolution.

      In that manner, I would be flattered.

      Someone who I am very fond of, David Hume would applaud your attitude to causality and faith. We can definately agree that we don't know anything.
      I think it is commendable that you are a scientist. I like science.

      I think you must get into arguments at parties about religion quite a bit. That used to happen to me too, I just nod and smile these days. I agree with your understanding of science and faith. Perhaps we both read the same books to come that opinion. I think Faith is an irrational acceptance of a paradigm of the universe. Proof would make it a rational acceptance, which is not as interesting as the skill of having faith is important. Going back to Hume, we can't be be sure that the sun will rise tomorrow, the past is no predictor of the future if we didn't have faith in the sun rising everyday we would have difficulty living contently.
      Thanks for sharing, that simple act of sharing your point of view to someone open minded enough to consider it has made the world a better place.
      I hope that your opinions evolve in the manner that you descibed, not to say that you should agree with me but that these exchanges are of benefit to you.
      You are welcome to get in contact with me should you wish to stay in touch. I moderate this forum on cyber crime . My email is available on that site. Have a look around while you are there, you might find some facts to support your opinion :)

    109. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      You sneaky little hacker! You owe the phone book company all sorts of money now.

    110. Re:Seriously, what the fuck! by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      And a "seriously, what the fuck" of my own: Slashdot, why the fuck don't you show the score in the heading line any more? WTF? I can see from my comments page that the parent was modded up one. I have no idea what the fucking moderation was though!

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  3. Seriously... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Heads need to roll for this one... Amazing. Words escape me.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Seriously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      roll> surely it's criminal negligence at the least?

    2. Re:Seriously... by sarysa · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree. I'm not a fan of the ten degrees of litigation that have somewhat wrecked U.S. society, but whoever coded that site needs to not be protected from said litigation. Webmasters of sites hosting animated GIFs of dancing deities and lolcats know better than that, and said idiot(s) is(are) responsible for safeguarding the finances of millions worldwide?!

      --
      Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
    3. Re:Seriously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heads need to roll for this one... Amazing. Words escape me.

      This one needs literal heads to roll... not just figurative this time...if someone is out there writing code like that on a huge corporate website, they don't deserve to be here anymore...

    4. Re:Seriously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heads need to roll for this one... Amazing. Words escape me.

      Don't worry. I'm sure the outsourcing firm Citi used to develop its website has concluded its contract, and a new one has been hired to replace it!

  4. I did something similar by aardwolf64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I did that at a bank I was working with. It was actually a hidden form variable with the institutions username/password, but grabbing that page before it auto-submitted allowed me to pull anyone's statement. I showed it to my manager, and eventually got a promotion out of it. :-)

    1. Re:I did something similar by Volante3192 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be thankful your manager wasn't a complete idiot; playing the odds, that would normally get you fired, arrested and pilloried...

    2. Re:I did something similar by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Funny

      The part of the story aardwolf64's not explaining: The reason he got the promotion was not because of the obvious security problem but because of the payment to whipsandhandcuffs.com he found on his manager's statement.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:I did something similar by phobos512 · · Score: 1

      "The part of the story aardwolf64's not explaining: The reason he got the promotion was so that he wouldn't blow the whistle and they could go on with the status quo..." FTFY.

    4. Re:I did something similar by jcoy42 · · Score: 2

      Who else was disappointed when whipsandhandcuffs.com didn't resolve?

      --
      Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
    5. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have had this problem. I once worked for National Car Parks in the UK, and I showed them how I could get away with £10,000 and I got called into a meeting where I was threatened with some 'security group' and I wouldn't like it.

      I told the manager who was threatening me I'd tell them the same I had told him, and that I had warned the manager and he had failed to do anything about it.

      I was then told to get out of the office, and it was swept under the carpet.

    6. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      perhaps you ought to try fetlife

    7. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, I do the same thing on porn sites. Sometimes the URL's have the gallery number like 01, 02, 03, just incrementing this will get you to the rest of the pixxxx. I have a little script that helps me out with it.

      Sadly, this doesn't work for most sites any more, though. Even the pr0n developers have caught on, but I guess it's over Citigroup's head.

    8. Re:I did something similar by gweihir · · Score: 1

      That is why when looking for web-app vulnerabilities, you use an interceptor proxy. Plenty of good free ones out there. Easy to write one yourself if you can actually program.

      While this mistake is made surprisingly often, it is an absolute beginners mistake and shows zero understanding of IT security. "Criminal negligence" is what any expert would call this.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:I did something similar by blair1q · · Score: 1

      You didn't grab it?

    10. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wasn't there some Internet law about that?

    11. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless it was part of the job requirement.

    12. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The part of the story aardwolf64's not explaining: The reason he got the promotion was not because of the obvious security problem but because of the payment to whipsandhandcuffs.com he found on his manager's statement.

      www.whipsandhandcuffs.com - server not responding...... dammit, liar

    13. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in a test system, which you have to assume he was using

    14. Re:I did something similar by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      It's a major cultural failing. I saw it expressed in a Sean Connery film, of all things once.

      The Japanese have a saying, “Fix the problem, not the blame.” Find out what’s fucked up and fix it. Nobody gets blamed. We’re always after who fucked up. Their way is better.

    15. Re:I did something similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize you're just being funny, but in reality, that should have no bearing unless they somehow got delivered to them something specifically illegal in the country. What the hell is wrong with society that what perfectly legal an consenting things someone does behind closed doors is grounds for getting them fired from completely irrelevant, unassociated places?

    16. Re:I did something similar by aardwolf64 · · Score: 1

      No, it was in production. But I had access to everyone's statement as part of my job anyway, so it wasn't that bad of a thing.

  5. So stupid by locallyunscene · · Score: 2

    When writing our rest services the first thing we considered was how to prevent users from accessing other users data. I don't understand how this could happen to a bank with credit card data. It's ridiculous.

    1. Re:So stupid by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I don't understand how this could happen to a bank with credit card data.

      Didn't you read the summary? It's Citigroup. The guys who keep calling me to offer me a credit card despite me having repeatedly told them not to call me anymore and to remove me from their call list. Somehow they think calling me again will make me change my mind and give them business. I guess it's easy to do what you want when the federal government is willing to bail you out.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:So stupid by Red+Flayer · · Score: 0

      Blah blah blah blah big banks blah blah anti-government rant that has nothing to do withthe subhect at hand other than a tangential connection because the subject of the article happens to be a bank. You do know that Citi isn't actually the company calling you, right?

      As for them calling you... telling them to take you off their list is not enough.

      You need to ask them what company is calling on behalf of Citigroup. Then you need to ask to be taken off both their list and Citi's list. Finally, make sure you get the ID# or name of the person calling. Take detailed notes.

      If they call again, fill out a complaint form with the FCC, the form is available at their website and extremely easy to file. I suggest grabbing the form first so you know what specific information to note when they call. This course of action may be unpalatable to someone who hates the idea of big government, so I'll understand if instead you just want to waste energy griping about it.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    3. Re:So stupid by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      fill out a complaint form with the FCC,

      Yes, the FCC has jurisdiction outside the US. Guess where I live, dipshit. Global company. Global internet. Not everyone you talk to here is from your neighborhood, Billy-Bob. Blah blah blah blah typical Americentric rant blah blah.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:So stupid by hedwards · · Score: 1

      When the FDIC illegal seized WAMU, they ended up with my information. I cancelled my card immediately, but I have a feeling that they've probably retained my information, given that they weren't willing to take no for an answer.

    5. Re:So stupid by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      1. Total lack of truly critical thinking in the development group.
      2. Total lack of effective or even minimal penetration or security testing.
      3. Total lackof creativity on the part of anyone involved in development.
      4. Dumb luck they actually caught them, my speculation.

      I'd like to think that around here, in design, this would get someone dismissed from the team. Fundamentally incompetent in this day and age.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    6. Re:So stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When writing our rest services the first thing we considered was how to prevent users from accessing other users data. I don't understand how this could happen to a bank with credit card data. It's ridiculous.

      I can. IT at Always The Low Price. Always.

    7. Re:So stupid by inject_hotmail.com · · Score: 1

      Oh man, first post to make me actually laugh out loud in quite a while. Keep up the good work.

    8. Re:So stupid by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Simple: They went for the cheapest possible developers due to management stupidity. Then they either ignored the results from a 3rd party security evaluation or they did not have one done. Whoever was responsible for the decisions leading to this fiasco should go to jail for more than a few months.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:So stupid by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Considering words of "the anonymous expert performing the investigation" in the article, I'd say they performed some very "in-depth" security reviews of the site. Except they were performed by "experts" just as clueless as the people who wrote the faulty code. Yep, bad testing is almost worse than no testing.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    10. Re:So stupid by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Or they went for the cheapest 3rd party security evaluation just as well.
      Exactly like they went for the cheapest investigation party just now - just read the statements by these morons in TFA.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    11. Re:So stupid by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You are right of course.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re:So stupid by Dilaudid · · Score: 1

      These are the guys that brought you the credit crunch. Nice to see nothing has changed.

    13. Re:So stupid by fafaforza · · Score: 1

      Heh, all of a sudden, living outside of the US is some sort of a badge of honor. If you raise your nose any higher, you'll be looking backwards!

    14. Re:So stupid by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      You can't really find fault with me assuming you live in the US, since you refer to the US government as "the government" .

      At any rate, my point still remains. Have you signed up for Robinsonliste? It's free. Have you sent them a letter revoking your consent to be contacted by telephone? It is illegal for firms to telemarket in Germany unless prior consent is given.

      So are you still going to sit on your ass and gripe about it, or are you going to take action to stop it?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  6. Wow, that's negligence on their part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Dealing with credit card information I know for a fact that security implementation is 100% illegal if the allegations are true. Citibank will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars if they follow the law ($100,000 per incident). I mean base level security for this would be only allow that user access to that specific account. If they were able to simply change URL numbers to see other account holders info... wow... just wow.

    1. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by Verdatum · · Score: 1

      That's my understanding. In order to be allowed to handle credit card transactions, you enter into an agreement with Visa/Mastercard/etc promising that you won't do things like send account numbers via URLs. Every infraction is a specific, and very large fine. Multiple infractions results in loosing your license with that credit entity. At least, that's on the Point Of Sale level. I can't imagine how it works on the bank level.

    2. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      Luckily for all of us who will eventually end up paying the fines for them, Citibank is Too Big To Fail.

    3. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Kinda looks like they failed PCI-DSS as well. How embarassing to be called out and have a mainstream app decertified.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    4. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      On a very basic level, PCI requires you not send the card number in the clear, even over an SSL connection. In a URL, it's so clear you might as well tie a pork chop on it.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    5. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no law mandating PCI/DSS (Payment Card Industry Data Security Standards). The people who enforce the security standards or credit card information are AMEX, VISA, and MASTERCARD; and they mostly do it by simply saying "you are now fined" and say pay us or your customer's credit card transactions will.
       
      The only people that can be held accountable criminally are the people who stole the information.

      All that aside citibank should crucify the carrier of that "security expert". He should never work in the computer security space again.

    6. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      "Citibank will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars if they follow the law ($100,000 per incident)."

      And then we'll turn around and bail them out again because they're "too big to fail." Even though the big fail is right here in this story.

    7. Re:Wow, that's negligence on their part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > At least, that's on the Point Of Sale level. I can't imagine how it works on the bank level.

      "Hey Bob, Sorry but we fucked up, no hard feelings eh, golf on Sunday?"

  7. Should be easy to find them by bezpredel6 · · Score: 1

    Seems like the website required to have *some* authenticated sessions. Even though they probably used some stolen credentials (at least one would hope), they must have used their own when they *discovered* it. So the way to find them is to look at the logs and find people who accessed diff acct urls under the same auth token prior to this massive theft. I bet there are not going to be that many of them.

    1. Re:Should be easy to find them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm assuming any system dumb enough to be susceptible to this attack doesn't have logs like that

    2. Re:Should be easy to find them by citizenr · · Score: 1

      You are so cute, you think they keep logs.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    3. Re:Should be easy to find them by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Knowing how easy it is to keylog someone, it would be trivial to just watch a cafe, see the Citi logo, and go retrieve your data. Imagine the FBI carshing into Grammy's trailer, guns drawn, looking for the hax0r who did this.

      It would be funny if not for the likelihood that Grammy ends uop with a broken hip or a heart attack, or Grampie shot to death cause he thinks the black helicopters have landed.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    4. Re:Should be easy to find them by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      Why use your real name when you can use stolen identity to open an account, or even login because one of the Sony customers use the same password on Citi?

    5. Re:Should be easy to find them by bezpredel6 · · Score: 1

      Because before you steal stuff, you discover the whole. Unless you know it is there because you left it, there have had to be this "aha" moment when some dude logged into *his* citibank account and tried it. ah, its too late to respond, this post is too stale

  8. Pathetic by mirix · · Score: 1

    Mind numbingly so.

    Really makes me wonder wtf is up with some banks and their incompetence. I registered for online banking with my bank some time ago, and they only allow [a-z][A-z][0-9] for passwords. no ~!@#$%^&*(. In the 21st century. Shame.

    --
    Sent from my PDP-11
    1. Re:Pathetic by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Really makes me wonder wtf is up with some banks and their incompetence.

      Too. Big. To Fail. There simply are no consequences anymore. Fines? OK we'll jack the fees. Losing money? Borrow it at 0% interest from the fed. Going bankrupt? Doesn't matter, the shareholders get wiped out and Uncle Sam will bail us out. Yeah we'll get fired, but we already have our multi-million dollar bonuses. We'll just work for another bank...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, American Express *requires* you to have less than eight characters in your password. Whose great idea was that?

    3. Re:Pathetic by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      One thing puzzles me...

      Password security is rated on difficulty, sure. But once you eliminate the dictionary search, you're down to brute force testing each key in turn.

      [a-z][A-Z][0-9] = 62 values
      [a-z][A-Z][0-9][~!#$%^&*(] = 71 values

      So which of these increase the keyspace better...

      pow(62, n) to pow(71, n)
      or pow(62, n) to pow(62, n+1)

      I suspect the answer is "n to n+1". To which the only limit is password size.

      If you're arguing about "these keys are not common in passwords" as security, aren't you arguing "security by obscurity" ... and if you succeed in convincing folks to use non-alphanumerics, aren't you eroding that very obscurity?

      You might as well say "they don't let me type in Unicode values that aren't in the standard alphabet". Anyone got stats for cracking the unicode character space? Is there any particular reason it would be more or less secure than using just alphanumerics, for any given key size?

    4. Re:Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, because it's too difficult to store Unicode as plaintext.

    5. Re:Pathetic by inject_hotmail.com · · Score: 1

      You missed a few:

      [space] )_+-=[]\{}|;':"?,./

      which is 71 + 20 = 91 values.

      In an 8 character password:
      62 ^ 8 = 218,340,105,584,896 combinations
      93 ^ 8 = 4,702,525,276,151,521 combinations

      which is just over 21.5 times as difficult to brute force.

      Anyway, we should really be speaking about bits instead of this key/that key, because a password is only good if you can type it on the device you wish to use to access the data behind it. Sure, I can enter Unicode characters on my computer...but have fun trying to gain access with an phone, game console, or whatever other 'smart' device, but the simple fact remains that there are only so many typeable characters. We could use a Unicode character set, but that alone would provide any further difficulty to brute force because the attacker would know the keyspace...whether it's represented by ASCII or Unicode...(well, then we'd open it up to which alphabet/language is used, but that is a very guessable attribute).

    6. Re:Pathetic by black+soap · · Score: 1

      If something is truly too big to fail (without dragging the rest of us with it), sounds like it is well past time to break it up into smaller bits.

    7. Re:Pathetic by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      One thing you might (or might not) have missed: character compression.

      with 62 characters, you can compress each character into 6 significant bits (losing a couple), allowing you 62^10 combinations in a 64 bit key.

      But both your 93^8 password and my 62^10 character password demand that those characters (and character spaces) be used. Some day, some day.

      On Unicode, I would be surprised if Japanese phones and game consoles etc didn't have some version of the windows IME to allow kanji to be entered. But as you point out, any means that allows simple/trivial/guessable entry of passwords/gestures/ID also reduces the space a brute force attack has to cover.

  9. Wow, just wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is web security 101. I can respect being SQL injection, or even a clever cross site scripting attack to fish users. But changing the account number in the url bar; words escape me.

  10. If you don't know, ask. by chaboud · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you don't understand how a secure negotiation protocol (and the protocol for the session after the fact) works, admit it and either ask someone or read several books until you recognize that you should still go ask someone. I've read more than my fair share of crypto books and papers, but, being an application developer who does only trivial personal server-side development, you can be damned sure that I'd ask for help when working on a username/password system. This goes double if it involves banking.

    That any session allows them to go digging around willy nilly is so unbelievably stupid, I can't even find the words.

    1. Re:If you don't know, ask. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      The only mitigating factor that could possibly exist here is, Citi is probably one of the first few banks to even have online account access, and this may be in the oldest portion of their access system. Its design may have been done way before securing against such things would even come up in a programmer's mind. And once in place and working nominally, nobody would ever have had cause to review it until they decided to start a new system from scratch (something banks almost never do; i have daily interactions with a couple of banks that i keep exhorting to scrap their crappy user interfaces and start over; nothing ever changes, not even things I'm personally not complaining about; banks long ago stopped putting money into their online presence).

      And while it's mitigating, it's not an excuse. Whoever's in charge of online security (and it's a CIO at least) is likely being ass-raped in the executive washroom (and I doubt I'm being metaphorical here) by the board over this, while the CEO holds the paper towels.

    2. Re:If you don't know, ask. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming the article is correct, this vulnerability had nothing to do with anything as sophisticated as encryption, or even authentication. It's far stupider (and far less forgivable) than that.

      They were too dumb to check that a parameter in a URL was authorised for a given login. Any idiot knows you need to check piece of information that comes from an untrusted source.

    3. Re:If you don't know, ask. by hvm2hvm · · Score: 1

      No way, any decent programmer would think if this even if "hacking" wasn't popular at the time. If not for security, at least to protect the system against user error e.g. the user entering the url by hand (maybe he's an idiot that copied his url to a piece of paper to be able to log in from other computers).

      --
      ics
    4. Re:If you don't know, ask. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I would say by the time they switched to web-based online banking (I'm e-banking from since before the www was available for home users) that by then they had some basic experience already.

      And also I would expect that they have gone through various implementations of their web site, if only to add extra functions and features. Encryption has advanced, for example. Https has been added. Keys have increased in size. Etc. Not keeping up with industry practice is no more than total incompetence. Banks, particularly the big ones, surely have the means to pay for the experts that know what they're doing and that can put this together securely.

      Being the first to have offered e-banking is not mitigating nor an excuse, at all.

    5. Re:If you don't know, ask. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      They added ssh. They probably considered that "securing the link" and didn't take another look at how the accesses themselves worked once you were in, because their interest was in "securing the link".

      And while banks have the means (i.e., my money) to pay for experts, they rarely if ever do, unless some standard or regulatory body somewhere explicitly requires it.

      Seriously. In 1994, when this was probably installed, nobody would have thought to stress-test putting random numbers into the fields in the URI. Banks were the ass-end of online computing, and careful attention to online security consisted of using a password other than "password". Separate the database and the URI by a few layers of browser and HTTP server and cgi-bin frosting, and there may have been nobody even cognizant that the number in the URI was passed unmolested to the database query.

      Now the whole chain would be clad in adamantium. Then, SQL-injection city. I bet you can pwn citi's servers with the examples on CPAN.

  11. Hard to prepare for? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My favorite quote:

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. ,
     
    He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    Yes, it would have been hard. For example, one would have had to take a security course, where this type of attack would have been discussed in the first 10 minutes.</sarcasm>

    1. Re:Hard to prepare for? by Iron+Chef+Unix · · Score: 1

      This was exactly my thought... "Hmm, we would have never thought of changing the account number. That must be some dark haX0rs voodoo magic."

      --
      Like puzzle games? Warehouse51 for iOS
    2. Re:Hard to prepare for? by Ruke · · Score: 1

      Saying one would have to take a security course might be pushing it a little. Honestly, it seems like, in order to pull off this attack, one simply needs to notice that your own account ID in in the location bar. This is "hacking" that a twelve-year-old could figure out. In fact I'm pretty sure that I did try this sort of thing trying to "hack" a Pokemon BBS when I was 12 or 13. (It didn't work.)

  12. Can't be real by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good fucking god. This can't be true.

  13. Won't an ISAPI filter prevent this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I could be misunderstanding something, but shouldn't something as simple as an ISAPI filter have prevented this?

    1. Re:Won't an ISAPI filter prevent this? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Something as simple as common fucking sense could have prevented this, no filters of any kind needed. He obviously allowed all users to log in with the same credentials at a lower level, and made it dead simple to switch users with a URL hack.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  14. WTF by itchythebear · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From TFA:

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    /epic facepalm

    First, this is NOT a hard vulnerability to prepare for. If the only method of user authentication you are doing is based off a string of characters received from the URL your not even qualified to build an ecommerce site for some mom-and-pop 2-sales-a-week company, let alone a bank.

    Second, why is this a surprise to this security "expert"? Anyone who has done development for a website with dynamic content would be familiar with passing information through the url. This is like web design 101. If I logged into my credit card account and saw my CC number in the URL bar the FIRST thing I would think of would be: "what would happen if I typed in another number in there." Security expert my ass, no wonder why some companies have this happen to them, look at the people they hire to test and investigate their systems!

    /rant

    --
    If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
    1. Re:WTF by itchythebear · · Score: 1

      erm, when i say CC number, I mean account number. I was temporarily blinded by the text quoted in my above post...

      --
      If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
    2. Re:WTF by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      It isn't like this a new type of attack either. Just look at people sharing pictures. If they post a bunch of pictures with default names you can very often just change the numbers to find more pictures, frequently ones they didn't intend to share for various often entertaining reasons.

      Hell the first year of college I was able to do something like this. The class registration method was primitive and putting the wrong numbers in when registering would often register someone else for that class. They fixed it for the next registration period but it did make things very interesting for the start of the winter session.

      Some day people will actually learn from history instead of just reading it. This was in no way a sophisticated attack, it was a simple script kiddie method that shouldn't have been open on any system to begin with much less a banking system...

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    3. Re:WTF by LastDawnOfMan · · Score: 1

      "Security expert" is probably about the same level of expertise as Jen of The IT Crowd. It seems to me that anyone with any technical expertise has been run out of every corporation and government position. That's how it was in the company that laid me off, anyway. By the end, you couldn't even say the word "network" or "computer" in a management meeting without peoples' eyes glazing over, because the only people left after the massive layoffs were all incompetent butt-kissers who were so technically challenged they thought those were Hard Words to Understand. Thus the talk about a "sophisticated attack" which is only sophisticated if you're completely ignorant of anything technology-related. And, of course, there's this scramble to make the attack sound really unfair and It's Not Citibank's Fault At All That Such Clever Bad Guys Attacked Them.

    4. Re:WTF by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      It isn't like this a new type of attack either. Just look at people sharing pictures. If they post a bunch of pictures with default names you can very often just change the numbers to find more pictures, frequently ones they didn't intend to share for various often entertaining reasons.

      I assume this is on Facebook?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:WTF by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3

      If I saw my CC or Account number in the URL bar...the first thing I would do is cancel my account and look for another service.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    6. Re:WTF by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      That "expert" probably had some qualifications aswell.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    7. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The super sad thing is that almost no matter what framework they're using - PHP, Python, Perl-CGI, even Java... it's between 2 and 3 lines of code per page to test the current session cookie against the authentication of whatever page they're viewing.

      (hint: the magic word is "include")

    8. Re:WTF by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Forgiven. Please consider upgrading to PAN in the future... :)

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    9. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding. Didn't anybody at Citi ever scam galleries off of pr0n sites growing up? They almost always had URLs where it was pretty obvious what needed to change to get at additional, um, "content"...

    10. Re:WTF by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Security expert probably means that this is the guy in the office who knows how to reset email passwords when hus colleagues forget theirs. It's the same way anyone in an office of non-techies will attain ubergeek status on successfully clearing a paper jam.

      Jesus wept. There is no part of this story that is not insane.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    11. Re:WTF by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      "I assume this is on Facebook?"

      Anywhere.

    12. Re:WTF by EdIII · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Second, why is this a surprise to this security "expert"? Anyone who has done development for a website with dynamic content would be familiar with passing information through the url. This is like web design 101. If I logged into my credit card account and saw my CC number in the URL bar the FIRST thing I would think of would be: "what would happen if I typed in another number in there." Security expert my ass, no wonder why some companies have this happen to them, look at the people they hire to test and investigate their systems!

      I made another comment about how awesomely stupid this is, but yeah. If you see your account number in the URL bar stop the service and find another company.

      There should be NOTHING in the URL bar. NOTHING. Just the page. At most you should see www.demo.com/accounts

      If you are actually going to be secure than a credit card number should passed in a secure AJAX call, where it gets encrypted first in JQuery, than passed to a php page server side, where it uses it's own API credentials to process the call fully, including security verification from the session AND passed data in the call, BEFORE returning a JSON document to the client side where it can do its job and update the page.

      $_GET should be totally deprecated in its use. I take that back. We used it sometimes to reference the API function call we are making internally in the past. So it being used as a functional way to access different functions is okay. However, even that behavior should transition over to the XML docs containing the function being requested. Our systems currently support both for legacy applications.

      $_GET is not secure. Period. Why? It is not just the rest of the world you are securing yourself against, but the USER AS WELL.

    13. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The SECOND thing I would do would be to cancel my account. The FIRST would be to harvest as many accounts as my scripting skills will allow for. Because tens of thousands of information violations like that is powerful voodoo if you know who to talk to. What would the CEO pay, privately of course, to keep that information from going public? Seems to me that number would be just slightly below the minimum fines his company faces. At least.

      But I guess that means I've been around too many boardrooms to have anything like morality enter into it.

    14. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe GET is any less secure than POST. Both get encrypted during HTTPS transmissions. Though, obviously, it is more obscure when variables are in a post, but security by obscurity is not security.

      What is wrong with this method is that 1) the account number (username) only should not ever be used as authorization 2) a session cookie should be used only after verifying user/password (with proper rights to only see what they need) and not containing clear text anything (and should be hashed with a salt stored remotely), 3) and in the case of a bank, there should never be a "remember me" type cookie session anyway. Sessions should expire every so often, or with every request requiring username/password.

    15. Re:WTF by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      This greatly predates Facebook. But Legion is right, pretty much anywhere

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    16. Re:WTF by angloquebecer · · Score: 1

      GET is not less secure than POST. Also encrypting anything client side (using javascript) and then sending it in an AJAX call doesn't really make it more secure either since the client will need to know the encryption method and thus will be able to submit encrypted dummy values as well.
      For aesthetic purposes you might not want the user to see the variables being passed via the URI but don't kid yourself into thinking that, because the user can't see the variables in their browser, they cannot be arbitrarily modified.

    17. Re:WTF by EdIII · · Score: 0

      GET is not less secure than POST

      It is a little less secure. You are right that with tools you can see anything POSTed in an AJAX call. I think IE9 has a debug feature that you turn on that will show you both the POST and response doc.

      However, GET statements are in plain view and recorded as part of the browsing history in just about everything. Security appliances, content managers, proxies, web browsers, etc. Last time I checked there were not that many browsers or security products recording POST transactions.

      then sending it in an AJAX call doesn't really make it more secure either since the client will need to know the encryption method and thus will be able to submit encrypted dummy values as well.

      Of course the client will need to know. That is what JQuery is for. The encryption method is literally downloaded by the client.

      As for the dummy values......... andddddd?

      For some of the stuff I do I hide a UID on the page and then pass that back with the AJAX call. However, none of the credentials for the API is stored client side. That part is PHP and server side. So when it receives the AJAX call, it knows the UID being passed, but *also* retrieves a lot more information from the session data. Additionally, the real API calls that do work and are secure are always called from the PHP. The AJAX call is just initiating an API call with passed data. Everything about the API call is hidden from the user, most importantly, the API credentials.

      So submit all the dummy values you want till the cows come home. Whatever you do with your POSTs that you learned through observation will still only allow to perform actions that our security engine deems to be appropriate for who you have been authenticated to be. Which can be quite extensive. We have granular control over all API actions to all API credentials and then further to all users against all actions that can be performed with the API.

      So knock yourself out. Everything you do is still within our security, not outside of it. Only difference is that you are manually making the calls with incorrect/correct data instead of using our front end that makes life easy for you.

      For aesthetic purposes you might not want the user to see the variables being passed via the URI but don't kid yourself into thinking that, because the user can't see the variables in their browser, they cannot be arbitrarily modified.

      See the reasons stated above why we could care less about arbitrarily modified values passed in AJAX POSTs. We considered that in our original design for security.

      We are more concerned with the SSL portion of the website and attackers learning the user names and passwords of the users connecting to our applications and services than we are about users, or even attackers, learning about all of the possible AJAX POST calls you can make on our website.

      It won't get them anywhere. If somebody has attacked one of our users, than yes, the attacker will have compromised *that* users account. Nothing an attacker could do with a user account would allow them to do anything outside of that users security context.

      So to reiterate, we are far more concerned about the security of SSL, especially in light of the RSA attacks, than we are about the security of our POSTs. SSL takes care of people compromising our users, to an extent. There are edge cases and coffee shop bullshit where our users would not be as safe, but our systems will still be.

      Furthermore, since we actually validate data, and the security context for each call, you cannot SQL inject attack us either. That part is so simple, the fact SQL injections still exist at all is beyond me. Pass all the dummy data you want attempting SQL injection attacks. Kind of hard to do when you can make all statements SQL safe by simply removing the ' symbol. In our case, the data will not validate on the client side before the POST, but let's sa

    18. Re:WTF by itchythebear · · Score: 1

      You make valid points, but I disagree that GET should be totally deprecated. It has very practical usage for things (such as pagination) that really should be in the url. Even having a unique identifier associated with a user account is fine as long is you are doing other things to verify the user, such as SESSION data validation and that unique identifier is only used for displaying in the url bar and not for referencing a user in other places.

      --
      If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
    19. Re:WTF by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Whatever you do with your POSTs that you learned through observation will still only allow to perform actions that our security engine deems to be appropriate for who you have been authenticated to be.

      What the parent was pointing out is that there is no point in all the complicated obscurity involving ajax. If you control access to resources properly, it doesn't matter what the user requests, if they are allowed access it will be granted, if not, not.

      Having data in the URL is not a problem if your server is properly secured, and there are many cases where having id nos in the URL makes a lot of sense - taking that info out of the URL does not make your server more secure, though of course exposing bank account nos is probably not a good idea.

    20. Re:WTF by joost · · Score: 1

      If I saw my CC or Account number in the URL bar...the first thing I would do is cancel my account and look for another service.

      My previous bank does this ... but it's not a bad thing. I can access multiple accounts from one place: checking accounts of various businesses I own. When changing account, the URL bar would reflect that. But when I entered account numbers which weren't mine, I got nothing. So the presence of the account number in the URL is not inherently bad.

    21. Re:WTF by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Account numbers aren't secret - you need to hand them out for people to transfer money to your account. I believe they're on cheques too. They're perfectly fine as an identifier for a resource.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    22. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first thing *I* would do, would be to try other CC or account numbers in there. :D

      BTW: Having some ID in the URL does not mean any security problem at all for an actually secure system. since in such a system, an ID would be useless without a key to the related encrypted session and/or at least password.
      But OK, maybe we're spoiled in Germany. I can't do anything to my account without a secure FinTS (formerly HBCI) channel between my bank and my chipcard in my chipcard terminal. The computer and doesn't get any saying in it since it only forwards encrypted packets, and has to the chipcard for any login and transaction, which then, only when I agree on the terminal, will get forwarded to the bank.

    23. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would have been completely secure if they had only taken the data in through an HTTP post instead of GET.

      Yes, that was sarcasm.

  15. Lowest bidder? by Lorens · · Score: 1, Funny

    <NICE>
    This is what you get when important functions are written by people who do not have the slightest inkling of what network security is about. You can put loads of $$$ into planning and design into specifying authentication, and it all falls down because the grunt who actually does the work doesn't have a clue.
    </NICE>
    <REALISTIC>
    Probably the grunt without a clue is the smartest guy over there.

    1. Re:Lowest bidder? by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      +1 Insightful for both comments.

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    2. Re:Lowest bidder? by mark_elf · · Score: 1

      No wonder all these posts are so sensible for a change. You forgot to close that tag!

    3. Re:Lowest bidder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked with several large banks a couple years ago (I'm talking top 3 banks in the US here), this is closer to the truth than you think. I remember one time we needed to exchange data with one of these large bank's departments. They initially offered us to exchange the data using text files. We were using an industry standard XML format, well supported by many financial organizations and having extensive validation tools, ie DTDs and such. When we asked if they accepted this format, the technical manager of the department asked us "what's XML ?". I shit you not.

  16. You have GOT to be shitting me by Slutticus · · Score: 2

    I know, redundant. But fuck. you've got to be kidding me! I think you are kidding. Nice lulz. This is a joke. Right?

    1. Re:You have GOT to be shitting me by hedwards · · Score: 1

      What's going to be nasty is that I bet there's people out there with Citi accounts that don't know they've got one. When the FDIC illegally seized WAMU for JP Morgen, Citi ended up with my CC. I canceled it, but they sent me another card anyways, and I'd be surprised if a few people didn't end up with a CC account that they don't know about.

    2. Re:You have GOT to be shitting me by WilliamBaughman · · Score: 1

      What's going to be nasty is that I bet there's people out there with Citi accounts that don't know they've got one. When the FDIC illegally seized WAMU for JP Morgen, Citi ended up with my CC. I canceled it, but they sent me another card anyways, and I'd be surprised if a few people didn't end up with a CC account that they don't know about.

      Really? Was WAMU solvent or something?

  17. They still don't get it by l2718 · · Score: 0

    From TFA:

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    If this kind of "expertise" is used for the investigation, no wonder they are not getting it. First, the vulnerability was in the server-side, not client-side. Secondly, comparing requests for information against the authorization level of the current user is SOP. It's axiomatic that you need to "prepare" for such checks.

    1. Re:They still don't get it by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Actually, the vulnerability is in the protocol. Never, ever, ever keep critical state client-side. One of the absolute basics of web-application security. Still violated quite often in practice and also in security-critical applications. I can only guess that this is due to outsourcing and hiring the cheapest possible developers that can barely use some web-application framework or toolkit without any understanding what they are doing.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:They still don't get it by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Actually, the vulnerability is in the protocol. Never, ever, ever keep critical state client-side.

      This vulnerability would still be there if the critical state was server side as well, because the vulnerability is caused by improper access to data, not improper authentication. They may well have had no critical state client-side (and no, the account no is not critical state, they were guessing other account numbers).

  18. BTW, i'm logging into my WF account now by Slutticus · · Score: 1

    Just need to check something...

    1. Re:BTW, i'm logging into my WF account now by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Just need to check something...

      What a coincidence: I'm logging into your account right now also.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  19. And they were deemed vital because... by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

    It's a good thing our foresightful federal government nobly resisted the public in '08-'09 and wisely chose to bail out and backstop this vital financial instution, on whom we are so ever reliant for their irreplaceable expertise!

    *jerk off gesture*

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    1. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by ceswiedler · · Score: 1

      Citigroup wasn't bailed out for their security expertise. Do you really think we'd be better off if we had let those banks fail?

    2. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      It would have been better to seize their Cayman Islands and Liechtenstein accounts and then bail them out with that.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Yes. Do you really think we'd be better off if we let every large bank hold us hostage whenever they feel like it?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    4. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by JordanL · · Score: 1

      Do *you* really think that anyone should be above not just the law, but reality?

    5. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by ceswiedler · · Score: 1

      Do you know how fucked everything would have been if a half-dozen major financial institutions all failed at once?

      Yes, banks make money and they're important to our economy. Get over it. Life without them is a lot worse. It makes sense to regulate them better so that they're less irreplacable, less likely to be exposed to risk, and easier to dismantle when things do go south. That's what we've been doing since 2008. It's ridiculously stupid to say we shouldn't have bailed them out. The bailouts of the banks and car manufacturers are basically making money; the big losses are in Fannie Mae and Freddic Mac.

    6. Re:And they were deemed vital because... by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I'm not sure I can follow your full argument as to why shitty businesses should be able to get government largess on terms unavailable to the rest of us. Perhaps you could articulate your thesis a bit more clearly if you removed your mouth from Timothy Geithner's erection?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  20. Daily Fail by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    Hackers who stole the personal details of more than 200,000 Citigroup customers 'broke in through the front door' using an extremely simple technique.

    And for the first time it has been revealed how the sophisticated cyber criminals made off with the staggering bounty of names, account numbers, email addresses and transaction histories

    They simply logged on to the part of the group's site reserved for credit card customers - and substituted their account numbers which appeared in the browser's address bar with other numbers.

    So..which is it? Simple or sophisticated? Or simple?

    1. Re:Daily Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple.

    2. Re:Daily Fail by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The cyber criminals were sophisticated, but they couldn't use their sophistication because the bank made it depressingly simple for them.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:Daily Fail by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      It was a very simple attack.

      sophisticated cyber criminals

      I assume they mean the cyber criminals were wearing top hats and monocles, and using big words.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    4. Re:Daily Fail by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Beginner level. Not very gifted amateurs qualify. A bit of programming experience, some basic understanding of how the web works. A bright person could acquire the necessary skills from zero in maybe a week or so.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:Daily Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indubitably.

    6. Re:Daily Fail by AVryhof · · Score: 1

      So..which is it? Simple or sophisticated? Or simple?

      You are under estimating modern intelligence. Sophisticated these days doesn't mean what it did back in the golden days of computing.

      Now days, you can be considered sophisticated if you are simply observant. I see it day in and day out being a web developer and the company's "IT guy"

      I wonder if Citibank pays it's web developers more than what I make a year. I consider my user systems simplistic, but they authenticate the session on every page and will only give you your own data.

  21. Secure hash? by thebra · · Score: 1

    Is it really that much trouble to add a secure hash of the id to the URL or check against the session if the user has access to that record? Come on, that is BASIC security.

    1. Re:Secure hash? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Meeep, wrong! Never, ever, ever keep critical session state client-side. You need to keep all session state on the server, then make sure nobody can break into the session. The second is done (not to well, just requires the attacker to be there from the beginning) by SSL already.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  22. And I'm out of a job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF!!!

  23. Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by devleopard · · Score: 1

    This is a failure in programming (I'll stop short of calling the coders idiots, since I don't know what pressures and time constraints they were under) and testing (this should be caught within 10 minutes with a half-hearted Selenium script). The mistake they made: if user is authenticated, they belong, and everything gets happily processed. Pretty typical, especially for beginning programmers. They failed to check individual resources against what was being param'ed in.

    --
    The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
    1. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I'll stop short of calling the coders idiots, since I don't know what pressures and time constraints they were under

      No, in the case of such an extremely idiotic vulnerability, it is quite fair to call the coders idiots, regardless of time constraints. It would take literally another 5 seconds of coding to prevent this.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      No, call them idiots. No matter the pressure, they have to at least tell their managers that what they have is so insecure that they are all going to quit, move to Malaysia, and strip accounts clean for a living with nothing more than a netbook and Firefox. Why bother to work, this is easier than stealing air.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They failed to keep session state including the users ID server side. One of the very, very basic rules for web-application security. And while the programmers may not be idiots, they are certainly grossly incompetent and you find the idiots in the management layer.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Aehm, no. They possibly did hand the connection over to a different server after authentication went through. If they did that, keeping the state client-side means they possibly did not keep any state (except in the SSL layer, but that is done by the library) on the server. Going from no state to state per connection is not quite that easy as 5 seconds, but it is the only way to go for any critical state information and anybody that knows the first thing about web application security will insist on it.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Still, set a cookie that contains a hash of the account number plus a secret salt plus the date. Require it on the next server. It's not ideal but the vulnerability is closed.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe. If you get everything right. Keeping encrypted/securely hashed state on the client is tricky to do right, there may be a possibility of replay attacks. You may have to tie it to the SSL session to be secure. Implementing state securely on server side is a lot easier.

      I agree that your proposal it is massively more secure than the bonehead thing they did, though.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Basic Security = Authentication + Authorization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a system that holds nothing more important than, say, your site viewing preferences, something as stupid as this might be acceptable.

      For a banking system there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE. This system should never have gone live. It should not have gotten past the first design review. It is criminal negligence, at least, and possibly deliberate malfeasance.

      Yes, call the coders idiots, but also include their management, the test team, and everyone else involved in the project. Basically, this is the sort of project where everyone involved should be terminated, and refused any further employment in any industry requiring security.

  24. Do they know what a URL is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

    He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    Law enforcement officials said the expertise behind the attack was a 'sign of what is likely to be a wave of more and more sophisticated breaches' by high-tech thieves.

    Since when did requesting a different page from server-side script become a 'sophisticated hacking technique' that would be hard to prepare for? This is unreal.

  25. Why Chrome is dropping the address bar.... by unil_1005 · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's the security solution for Citigroup!

  26. You have got to be kidding me... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    What? I mean, WHAT? Teenie-bopper web developers, tired of having their Star Wars fansites hacked, stopped putting account info in GET strings back in the nineties! What kind of crap programmers... the mind boggles... What BANK would pay for such crap code, and what enterprise-class design team would make such a horrible mistake? This is not a cute little hack, it's a fundamental coding... no, design... no, sorry, CONCEPTUAL flaw.

    Everyone involved with this project; design, management, QA, and most especially whomever at Citigroup signed off on the project, should be immediately fired and never work again in this field.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who do you think does the coding for Citi?

      Surely you're aware that most of their coders never touched a computer outside of their "college" until they entered the workforce, some barely even touched them then.

    2. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming that Citi hired out the design and implementation to a legitimate design firm with experience building enterprise applications. I mean, c'mon, this is like having their physical security designed by Mel at the hardware store. Mind you, I'm sure Mel is a nice guy an' all...

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by Shados · · Score: 1

      Thats what happens when you teach CS, and _ONLY_ CS, to everyone who wants to become a software developer, regardless of fields (with the occasional college who has electives for practical application)

      The programmer was probably too busy wondering making the mathematical model of the algorithm he used to efficiently parse the account number to worry about where the number came from :)

    4. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      ...or trying to figure out how he could implement a recursive algorithm in PHP...

      But is it really that simple? The assignment went to someone or ones with a highbrow degree but no practical experience? Seems too easy.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    5. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by Shados · · Score: 1

      Well, when there's almost nothing else to hire...its common.

      Though realistically, banks outsource a lot of that stuff to the lowest bidder in common outsourcing countries. 2 years ago my job at one of the largest banks in the USA was to redo from scratch as much as possible from the stuff we had outsourced, because even trying out as many outsourcing firms as possible, none had produced anything with some form of quality.

    6. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I could see that. There is a huge amount of pressure to outsource, even when the results are unacceptable. And I've noticed at my own company that it's easier to redo from scratch than it is to convince upper management that oursourcing the project was not money well spent.

      I could even maybe see a manager looking at substandard code he got from some third world country with which he was forced to do business, and letting it go through. After all, it's no skin off his nose.

      I've seen the decision to outsource destroy high level careers. But even then, the explanation is not that outsourcing was the wrong decision, but that it was not managed properly.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    7. Re:You have got to be kidding me... by Shados · · Score: 1

      No arguments there. Plus its not like there aren't a lot of options. You don't HAVE to outsource to third rate studios in China and India.

      There's a lot of countries that will do the job at a fraction of the price with SOME form of quality.

      A lot of companies from north eastern USA will outsource just up of the border in Montreal, where the salaries are often as much as 30-50% lower, the government wants the business so much it will offer to pay 20-30% of what is left, and the quality is... "OK". Sure, games made by Ubisoft Montreal are buggy as hell, but its still less buggy than the stuff I've seen coming from the 3 cents per line of code shops.

  27. Citigroup is VERY dysfunctional. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Citigroup is VERY dysfunctional, according to recent books and articles. But Citigroup makes billions because the U.S. government is even more corrupt.

    The CEO should be fired, in my opinion. Instead he will be paid $23.2 million.

  28. The "Expert" by overunderunderdone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

    He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.

    IF the article is correct about the nature of the vulnerability this quote is the single stupidest and most frightening things I have ever read on the internet.

    1. Re:The "Expert" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

      He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.

      IF the article is correct about the nature of the vulnerability this quote is the single stupidest and most frightening things I have ever read on the internet.

      Assuming it is a correct quote, I completely agree. That anyone credits him as an expert in anything even vaguely tech related is truly baffling.

    2. Re:The "Expert" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see why this "Expert" would like to remain anonymous.

    3. Re:The "Expert" by farnsworth · · Score: 2

      One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.

      IF the article is correct about the nature of the vulnerability this quote is the single stupidest and most frightening things I have ever read on the internet.

      Give some benefit of the doubt. Keep in mind this is a New York Times article -- it is written in way that they feel should be understandable to any 8th grader in the country. Add onto that, that the reporter is almost certainly not understanding anything this guy has to say. Add onto that, this guy is actively working on the investigation, and he might not be willing or able to divulge any actual information. Add onto that that the New York Times readers (staff included) are generally outraged at the banking industry, so there is no doubt a bias to roast a big player in that industry.

      Some questions: Is this guy the original source? What does "security expert" mean? CISSP? Manager of the "security department" that is running the investigation? Outside consultant? Who knows, if the article contained this information it did a bad job of conveying it.

      The way I read it, it seems to me that this guy is probably referring to the criminals. When I first read it, he was conveying to me, "The last place criminals will look for an entry point is the front door. When they found it, they seemed prepared with a sophisticated and fast way to drain as much info as they could prior to detection." It's almost as if he is suggesting that it was an inside job without coming out and saying it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing that suggests that the account numbers were in the url in plaintext. Perhaps they were ROT13ed or similar, or perhaps the key was in a script on the client, or perhaps the key was the remote ip address or something equally dumb. This would still be unforgivable from an architecture point of view, but it easy to see how something like this could escape notice during day-to-day code reviews. "What's that string for?" "Oh, that's our session id."

      There are a million contexts and situations where what this guy said could make good sense. Why the New York Times is publishing truncated sound bites of opinion from anonymous sources is the baffling thing here. The New York Times might be able to corroborate facts from an insider, or otherwise trust the information, but in my mind they should not be printing opinion or speculation from an unnamed source with an obvious interest in the outcome.

      --

      There aint no pancake so thin it doesn't have two sides.

    4. Re:The "Expert" by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Seriously?

      You never heard of chatroulette?

    5. Re:The "Expert" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guess would be that the security guy was told to play it up as a sophisitcated attack.
      Didn't have the balls to refuse to lie to the reporter but didn't want to put his name on it either.

    6. Re:The "Expert" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does Citigroup astroturfing pay well?

    7. Re:The "Expert" by Pope · · Score: 1

      That's that French cat thingy, isn't it?

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  29. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either I totally misunderstand what I just read, or it's the stupidest thing I ever heard of. This week anyhow.

  30. Apparently Citi isn't Too Big To Fail after all... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 2

    because this is epic fail.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  31. Good banks? by djirk · · Score: 1

    Has anybody done some sort of audit of various bank's online security procedures to find which, if any, have a decent setup?

    1. Re:Good banks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has anybody done some sort of audit of various bank's online security procedures to find which, if any, have a decent setup?

      Yes, various criminal organizations have done audits of banks' online security procedures. Unfortunately, they're too busy making millions of dollars from the stolen data they acquire to write a report about how bad the security is, so they have to rely on "experts" like the one in this article.

  32. Not surprising. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another big gigantic bank based here the in the US of A who has received hundreds of billions of dollars in "aid" from the Government, off-shores much of their development overseas - I'm not sure if it's a captive company or if it's an independent firm.

    Friend interviewed as a BA and was told that the dev staff were all in India - least for the department in that particular division for BOA.

  33. you think citibank gives a flying fuck because..? by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

    Citibank will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars if they follow the law ($100,000 per incident).

    ... for which they'll immediately pass the cost to their customers. Do you REALLY think it costs them two bucks to let you use other institutions' ATM? Do you really think it costs them fifty bucks to stop payment on a check? Until we're talking about serious jail time in the pound-me-in-the-ass prison for officers of the corporation, nothing will change. But knowing how congress critters in Washington are all already bought and paid for, I think we have a better chance getting a snow storm in hell.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  34. Article subjected to same testing as citi by codepigeon · · Score: 1
    From the article:

    This is because, according to a report by Verizon and the Secret Service, the demand for data is on the rise. In 2008 the underground market for data was flooded with more than 360 million stolen personal records, compared to just 3.8 million in 2010.

    How is that a rise?
    Dailymail and Citi bank apparently use the same QA department.

  35. Man, This guy was dead on! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was just reading this post where the blogger rants about how dumb and simple these attacks are getting:

    http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=does_the_recent_rash_of_cyber_attacks_on&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

    And then today, they post a STUPIDER one!

  36. car analogy by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    Yes, the car is locked, but all the cars use the same key. It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.

    1. Re:car analogy by xero314 · · Score: 2

      Yes, the car is locked, but all the cars use the same key. It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.

      I think you mean, the cars are all locked but unlocking one car, regardless of key, gives you access to all other cars.

      Every user account has it's own credentials, it just happens that once you are authorized you are free to access every account, not just your own.

    2. Re:car analogy by slackergod · · Score: 2

      Even better, valet parking - Valet gives you a ticket, and you discover it's possible to pencil in another number, and get a different car. Then you discover they let you make 20,000 photocopies, and present 20,000 different tickets, and valet *never gets suspicious*.

    3. Re:car analogy by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      This actually happened to me once. I pushed the "unlock doors" button on my car's remote and I heard another car beep. It turned out that this other car was locking/unlocking via my remote along with my car. Had I wanted to, I could have entered this other car easily and taken anything I found inside.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  37. "Hard to prepare for" a simple GET injection?! by n5vb · · Score: 2

    "One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

    He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'"

    Really? They were passing a credit card account number in the clear through a GET parameter, without validating it against which session the page load was authenticated on, and that was "hard to prepare for"? Really?

    I could have done it better than that. So I guess that makes me an expert, right? (Hint: No. It makes the "expert" a flaming idiot.)

  38. But how is it "brazen"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about substituting account numbers is bold and without shame?

  39. anyone with a citigroup account should be suing by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    This kind of negligence should be criminal.

  40. to breach security by prikkebeen · · Score: 1

    ....to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. I see what you did here! It is not a vulnerability in the browser. It is a vulnerability in the code and the whole system behind it. You cannot escape your liability with this nonsense.

  41. Casey Stengel's Prophetic Words by nightcats · · Score: 1

    If you're a baseball fan you'll get the connection here (um, get the name of the stadium): this is so Mets-like an event and an outcome. I recall Casey Stengel's immortal words from when he had the helm in Flushing: "can't anyone play this here game?"

    --
    Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
  42. Haha, who would ever leave such a vunerability? by makubesu · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Haha, who would ever leave such a vunerability? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Argggghhh! Took me a few minutes to stop laughing!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Haha, who would ever leave such a vunerability? by El_Oscuro · · Score: 1

      Seems to be slash-dotted...

      --
      "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
  43. basic quality assurance professionals by Francofille · · Score: 1

    Please remember this story next time your boss thinks it's okay to hire or use just anyone to do QA. PMs and Customer Service agents are not testers! Nor can you do effective testing with only kids straight out of school.

    Imagine if buildings got built with no architects, no engineers, just construction workers. Or no construction workers, just engineers. Would you feel safe on the top floor?

  44. I won't stop short... the coders were idiots by sirwired · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It doesn't matter WHAT time or money constraints they were under. This is simply not something that would be acceptable out of somebody that codes for money. To call this a "beginners mistake" is an insult to Web Development 101 students everywhere. If you have to be TOLD that maintaining authentication to a secure website based on the contents of the URL bar is a bad idea, then you do not deserve to be coding for anybody. I haven't EVER coded a website (I haven't written anything longer than a ten-line shell script in 13 years) and I could have told you this was a mind-bogglingly stupid mistake. This is not 20/20 hindsight at work here... it really is that stupid.

    Heads should roll, including the programmer(s) responsible for this travesty, and two levels of management above him/her. And the remaining employees in the department should all have to apply for their jobs again (by the new management team), as their suitability as programmers could not have been properly evaluated before if the original moron managed to keep his job longer than a week.

    I'm actually willing to cut the testers some mild slack... maybe they chose not to test for the developer having the IQ of a turnip. (Just a little slack... a tester should NEVER assume the developer has the least clue what they are doing when figuring out what needs testing.)

    1. Re:I won't stop short... the coders were idiots by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I'm actually willing to cut the testers some mild slack... maybe they chose not to test for the developer having the IQ of a turnip. (Just a little slack... a tester should NEVER assume the developer has the least clue what they are doing when figuring out what needs testing.)

      I don't. This is on the very short list of things to check first when testing web-application security. Unless there never was any security test, which seems to be a definite possibility.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:I won't stop short... the coders were idiots by Bamafan77 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter WHAT time or money constraints they were under.

      Why wouldn't this matter? Yes this is a "simple mistake", but when you try to get people to do too much, too fast, for too cheap then "simple mistakes" WILL happen. BTW, I would not be the least surprised if this exact same vulnerability is in many other sites, but just hasn't been reported (possibly sites built by the same people who built Citi's).

  45. Re:Article subjected to same testing as citi by Francofille · · Score: 1

    That made me laugh, codepigeon.

  46. Seriously, who are these "security experts"? by cultiv8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    Are you *really* trying to label this as a browser vulnerability issue?

    You're either *really* incompetent or paid very well to say shit like that.

    --
    sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
    1. Re:Seriously, who are these "security experts"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you think he wants to remain anonymous? Having to trot out that bullshit AND put your name to it?

  47. $20 says that code was written by a contractor.. by synthesizerpatel · · Score: 2

    Should CERT issue an advisory on outsourcing as a hot new attack vector?

  48. OMFG by Checkered+Daemon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "In conclusion, the main thing we did wrong when designing ATM security systems in the early to mid-1980s was to worry about criminals being clever; we should rather have worried about our customers - the banks' system designers, implementers, and testers - being stupid."
                    Ross Anderson, "Security Engineering"

    1. Re:OMFG by thsths · · Score: 1

      "In conclusion, the main thing we did wrong when designing ATM security systems in the early to mid-1980s was to worry about criminals being clever

      And you didn't do a good job there either: it does not take a lot of clever to copy a magnetic strip, and even skimming devices are actually quite a simple technology.

  49. Re:you have got to be kidding me by sortadan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is super basic stuff in the web world. What they did in this debacle is let you into the bank (citigroup.com), talk to you one-on-one at the teller station (SSL), have you swipe your card and enter your pin (login/password), then let you fill out a withdrawal form for anyone's account and give you the money!!

    "Uh... yeah, I'd like to get the money from my account number +1... oh, that one's closed, how about my account number +2, nope, well then +3? Ah, yes, that one please... all the money, yes."

    I don't bank with citigroup, and I certainly never will knowing how little effort they put into their security practices.

  50. Fool... by chaboud · · Score: 1

    You could have gotten retirement out of it...

  51. Re:Article subjected to same testing as citi by Orffen · · Score: 1

    This would be the Data Breach Investigations Report.

    How is that a rise?

    Basic economics would dictate that with supply being signicantly lower in 2010 than in 2008 (less data available on the black market), the demand for said data has gone up.

  52. An old joke from a dutch stand-up comedian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe it was Herman Finkers who as joking about telephone service coming to his village. Only a few people had it, so they had single digit telephone numbers.

    It went something like this: the mayor, since he was the mayor, had telephone number 1. the notary had number 2, the priest had number 3, the owner of the factory had telephone number 4, the constable number 5, and the librarian number 7. The Johnsons also had telephone but they had an unlisted number.

    ANY website that uses www.anysite.com/info.pgp?type=info&account=012345 that allows you to change account= and then displays the information for that account holder should be held liable.

  53. Re:Apparently Citi isn't Too Big To Fail after all by jd · · Score: 1

    I disagree. There's got to be a cutoff point below which it ceases to be fail and emerges into some sort of parallel universe.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  54. Re:Article subjected to same testing as citi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, if you just read the sentence after that it says:

    As the credit cards, whose numbers were stolen in 2008, expire, there is a rush to find new accounts.

    So it is (or should be) on the rise now.

  55. Abertay University, Dundee, Scotland by Pop69 · · Score: 1

    This kind of attack is what they teach in the first term of their ethical hacking and countermeasures course.

    What kind of morons don't programme against something that's so basic ?

    1. Re:Abertay University, Dundee, Scotland by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Well, I really liked the fortune at the bottom of the page: "Once harm has been done, even a fool understands it. -- Homer"

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  56. Re:you think citibank gives a flying fuck because. by blair1q · · Score: 1

    They can't pass the cost to their customers. Or rather, they have already ensured that their price is the maximum their customers can give.

    If you have a bank account with Citi, you are probably earning 0.05% interest, and paying for all activities you perform through the bank.

    Time to let Citi crash and burn, and move their customers' assets to a bank that isn't completely corrupted by profiteering and shitty service.

  57. Too Big to Care by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

    It's cheaper for Citigroup to spin its way out of this mess than for it to pay for real security. Because real security requires people with some sense throughout the chain with access to the organization. And that kind of person is a threat to the entire way of doing business that banks like Citigroup do it.

    Remember that Citigroup is exactly the bank for which Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX) wrote the 1998 bank deregulation bill that left the global economy exposed to exactly the kind of collapse the 1934 regulations had protected us from since the last time the banks gave unregulated credit until they collapsed. They have learned from the 2008 Crash that they will be given only more money when they fail, so they don't work hard to avoid the risk. The kind of "moral hazard" that banks use to excuse paying their insurance obligations, but which define their own businesses now.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Too Big to Care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're thinking of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, but yes, Phil Graham.
            "These derivatives, especially the credit default swap, would be at the heart of the financial crisis of 2008 and the subsequent recession."
            The kicker for anyone trying to make a partisan point here:
          "The CFMA, enacted into law by President William Jefferson Clinton,... "

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000

    2. Re:Too Big to Care by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, I'm thinking of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 that "repealed part of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933, opening up the market among banking companies, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass–Steagall Act prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company.". The "firewall" that protected financial institutions from collapse in one sector spreading like wildfire to the other sectors, a lesson learned all too well from the 1929 Crash, was torn down for a quick buck. I note that the 1929 Crash was produced by a banking system ruled through the 1920s by a Republican president and his solid Republican Congressional majorities.

      Yes, it was signed by President Clinton. Which, in partisan terms, was known at the time (and since) as "Clinton selling out to the Republicans". Because when you're a president with a Congress so rabidly partisan that it impeaches you over a blowjob, and they hand you the chance to make grateful banks $TRILLIONS while you're running an economy spreading those $TRILLIONS around pretty good, you sell out to the Republicans with alarming frequency.

      Of course the GLB Act and followups didn't actually destroy the economy until a solid decade run practically exclusively by Republicans followed it. The partisan point here is that "the Republican Way" is so dominant in America that it's not exclusive to Republicans - though practically every Republican is part of (and necessary for) it.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  58. Same vulnerability as Hotmail 10 years ago by inject_hotmail.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Anyone remember? You could gain access to anyone else's mailbox by replacing your own address with theirs in the URL bar...10 years later, a bank still can't figure that out? These are the jackasses we "trust" with all of our money and assets, too.

  59. Soooooo.... by inject_hotmail.com · · Score: 1

    who immediately went and checked their own bank website for the same vulnerability?

    1. Re:Soooooo.... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      not me, i like not being in federal prison

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Soooooo.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you'd like to be sure anyway I'd be happy to take your bank information and check for you.

  60. Monumental FAIL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's getting to the point we should just give up on the web. If a bank can't understand the notion of security then we're pretty much hosed.

    Don't worry though; they're probably insured against their own stupidity.

  61. "One Expert" WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser."

    Anybody know what company this investigations team is? I'd like to submit a resume... I'm even willing to move presuming wherever it is pays at least 55K + differences in rent in a decent neighborhood.

    Kinda feel like a job I can sit around jacking off for 4 hours a day, look at a problem for thirty seconds, write up a better report than this guy, and then go home while building my own security credentials up to 'expert'

    Hell, I'll even attend cons and training seminars, and bring in a few kids from IRC that are brighter than the aforementioned schmuck...

  62. ed hardy jeans by edhardyjeans · · Score: 0
  63. Tata, Infosys, of IBM India? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, Who was it this time?

    but it was cheap!

  64. webmonkeys by Lagerhowen · · Score: 1

    The webmonkeys should be beaten

  65. Haha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was 12 I used that method to hack into people hotmail accounts (non microsoft hotmail back then). Too funny.

  66. Re:you think citibank gives a flying fuck because. by c0lo · · Score: 1

    to a bank that isn't completely corrupted by profiteering and shitty service.

    Huh? Is there such a thing nowadays?

    --
    Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  67. Um, just a sec, gotta check on something... by Bones3D_mac · · Score: 1

    This doesn't even qualify as a hack. It's more like a tactic a curious script kiddie would try just to see how something worked, and suddenly being pleasantly surprised when some other user's data was handed to them on a silver platter as a reward for bothering.

    Sadly, I'm willing to bet this kind of "exploit" is probably far more common than anyone is willing to admit. Like those of us who have ever "left the water running" and only coming to realize it 50 miles down the road.

    It's something so stupid, most developers wouldn't bother checking their own work for such a "rookie mistake", simply because they're just that good.

    --


    8==8 Bones 8==8
  68. H1B Mistake by Phoenix666 · · Score: 1

    Things like this are an inevitable consequence of commoditizing development and outsourcing it to India & China or onshoring it via H1B holders whose certifications and degrees are printed on tissue paper. As an IT manager for years the quality of candidates I have seen coming from those sources is laughable--they code by flowchart. But those are exactly the kind of 'programmers' banks love to hire, because they work cheap and never complain when you work them to death because you can fire them and they get sent back to the old country. Do they do crap work? Yes, absolutely. But that's not the MBA-holding, PHB manager's problem, because they get to claim cost savings and a promotion for it and push like hell to get as far away from the inevitable consequences as they can before it blows up.

    If you are an IT manager, please do yourself a favor and hire experienced natives who really know what they're doing. They will cost you a couple 10G's more, but the difference in the product will save you millions it would cost to fix crappy code and the tens of millions more in liability when your customers learn the hard way how lightly you treated the confidentiality and security of their data.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  69. Man, what an opportunity I missed by sootman · · Score: 2

    All this time I've just been using that trick to get free porn.

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  70. Re:Apparently Citi isn't Too Big To Fail after all by gmhowell · · Score: 1

    I disagree. There's got to be a cutoff point below which it ceases to be fail and emerges into some sort of parallel universe.

    Problem is, it's pretty much the same universe as ours, but they have cool hats.

    --
    Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  71. Re:Apparently Citi isn't Too Big To Fail after all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, all Americans, regardless of what bank they use, should write their Congressmen about this and urge the banking committee to subpoena executives from all the major banks for a hearing. Citigroup breached its fiduciary responsibility on a massive scale and with breathtaking stupidity, and this on the heels of a bailout needed because of stupidity and a lack of responsibility. This is especially important after the recent US court ruling on what kind of password protection satisfies the legal requirements for safeguarding accounts: Congress may well need to step in and impose on the banks a sense of responsibility towards depositors. There's no reason that a WoW account should have more security than a bank account, and the failure of American banks to increase security as part of market-driven competition only makes manifest a nearly collusive sense of inertia and collective disdain for depositors' wishes and wellbeing.

  72. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  73. Re:Article subjected to same testing as citi by codepigeon · · Score: 1

    That is probably the most stupid comment I have ever seen. Supply was lower in 2010 compared to 2008. So that explains an increase in demand? That is not how "basic economics" works. Demands lead Supplies.

  74. Defending the expert, maybe by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

    He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'

    Well, yes, actually. It's not saying "it would have been hard to prevent this type of vulnerability", it's saying it would be hard to prepare for hundreds of thousands of customers' information getting stolen. That does sound hard to prepare for.

    One expert [...] told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser.

    Maybe he's just being horribly misquoted here. The vulnerability can apparently be triggered using a browser in a very standard way, which to a journalist might sound an awful lot like a "vulnerability in the browser". Still, if it's just shoving different numbers in a query string (which the article really, really makes it sound like it is), there's nothing to wonder at.

    Yet again, faced with a news article on a topic I'm somewhat familiar with, shoddy reporting shines through. Disgusting.

  75. Not buying it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry, I just don't believe this. Either the reporting of this article is incompetent in describing the technical aspects, or the so called quoted expert and every dev on the project are utter morons. I call BS.

    It seems inconceivable to me that the account number was in the clear in the address bar, much less that simply changing an account number in the URL would pull up someone else's account. If you were a dev on that project, that is something the most basic newbie knows is a no no.

    For the quoted expert to say "It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability" is just absurd. A 3 yr old could "hack" the vulnerability described.

    Something doesn't add up.

    At the very least, maybe actual hackers used rainbow tables to figure out simple unsalted hashed account numbers. But to not re-validate on the server with each request on a bank level system is unimaginable.

    Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

  76. lawl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can just imagine the guys trying it out laughing their asses off when it actually worked.

  77. stateful inspection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I understand that on the web, state transaction require either cookies or sessions, and if security is an issue, use sessions. It allows stateful transactions (so you need a valid ID/password combination in order to get to credit information page), and of course with salted transmission of data, eavesdropping becomes a pain. So where was all of this? This hack isn't just trivial, its obscenely trivial. A first-time code monkey could spot this disaster looming. Banks have lots of money. Surely they could have hired someone competent instead of the cheapest idiot they could find. I'm shaking my head now. Lulzsec is seen as this big bad haxor group, where in fact, all they have to do is trip over some really stupid code, and with barely any work, take advantage of really stupid people (with lots of other peoples money). I keep shaking my head. How could they be this careless and stupid? Do they want people to sue them for all the money they have?

  78. Already done that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the same technique I used to find my actual girlfriend on a dating site (and I don't consider that as "hacking" at all).

  79. Authentication but not authorization by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

    Wow. Yes, I can see how making accounts accessible via an unhashed URL is really something no one would have guessed would be a problem.

    The URL was not the problem (URLs should be readable and uniquely identify a resource, they are not really related to security) - the access control (non-existant) was the problem. Relying on hashes alone would just be security through obscurity. Although they are public information might have been advisable not to use bank account nos in the url, even on a secured connection, but hashed urls do not provide proper access control (which is what they should have had, to check that yes user a really can not look at user b's account, or 1000 others).

    They had authentication but not authorization, that's the problem

    1. Re:Authentication but not authorization by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Correct. Hashing the account number in the URL wouldn't help much. While it means you can't grab a specific account by knowing its number, you can still grab random accounts by trying random hashes.

  80. Re:you have got to be kidding me by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    I don't bank with citigroup, and I certainly never will knowing how little effort they put into their security practices.

    What makes you think that other banks are any better?
    People used to think that RSA and SecurID were secure a couple of months ago...

    Personally i'd rather see hackers publish information like this where the company is forced to admit to the hack, rather than serious organised criminals systematically stealing money and keeping it under the radar so the bank can continue denying the hack.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  81. Cracker: the best paying job today. by Issarlk · · Score: 1

    Apparently there is no security whatsoever on the internet. It's a wonder how the bad guys manage to crawl all the way to the bank while rolling on the floor laughing.

  82. Amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Queue Super-Spy music for this amazing hack...

    Doesn't surprise me, I found a website where you can spam a Telco's entire userbase if you set up a nice script to simply advance mobile numbers. We often over-estimate the quality of people they have developing, and I doubt there is very much in the way of security testing/auditing going on in a lot of cases.

  83. Not the only problem with Citibank by Eaglehawk · · Score: 1

    For the past 3 years, I've been getting emails from another Citibank customer of the same name as me on my gmail account. First it started with "offers" but has escalated to PDF account statements.

    Despite all attempts to stop this "spam", they are unable to fix the issue because "I'm not the owner of the account".

    So, they happilly let customers set email addresses without verification. And continue the sending of personal information despite being told otherwise.

    Time to close my account. This was the final straw.

    1. Re:Not the only problem with Citibank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the past 3 years, I've been getting emails from another Citibank customer of the same name as me on my gmail account. First it started with "offers" but has escalated to PDF account statements.

      Despite all attempts to stop this "spam", they are unable to fix the issue because "I'm not the owner of the account".

      So, they happilly let customers set email addresses without verification. And continue the sending of personal information despite being told otherwise.

      Time to close my account. This was the final straw.

      I think you mean "for another Citibank customer" not "from".

    2. Re:Not the only problem with Citibank by Eaglehawk · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's what I meant. Not bad, one error out of what I swyped :)

  84. Expert? by Philbert+de+Zwart · · Score: 1

    From the article: "One expert, who is part of the investigation and wants to remain anonymous because the inquiry is at an early stage, told The New York Times he wondered how the hackers could have known to breach security by focusing on the vulnerability in the browser. He said: 'It would have been hard to prepare for this type of vulnerability.'" Someone who says this is not an expert.

  85. 1st rule of web security: by thsths · · Score: 1

    Never ever trust the browser!

    Epic fail, but of course we would not expect any less from Citibank.

  86. Let gmhowell tell you all about himself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A quote from the troll gmhowell says it all:

    "I do whatever amuses me at the moment. Sometimes that is trolling. As far as AC? I only do that to avoid undoing moderations." - by gmhowell (26755) on Wednesday April 20, @12:49AM (#35877174) Homepage

    Your own words prove to us that you're online trash gmhowell, you scumbag troll.

    This IS why nobody here takes you seriously, or pays you any heed: You're a troll!

    The above not enough? Well, here's more from you:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

    And here also:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2087330&cid=35846218

    ("3 strikes, & you're out" - And, there's NO DENYING you are a troll, gmhowell. (Especially when you admitted it there in the links above, literally, in your own words!))

  87. Let's let gmhowell tell you all about himself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A quote from the troll gmhowell says it all:

    "I do whatever amuses me at the moment. Sometimes that is trolling. As far as AC? I only do that to avoid undoing moderations." - by gmhowell (26755) on Wednesday April 20, @12:49AM (#35877174) Homepage

    Your own words prove to us that you're online trash gmhowell, you scumbag troll.

    This IS why nobody here takes you seriously, or pays you any heed: You're a troll!

    The above not enough? Well, here's more from you:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

    And here also:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2087330&cid=35846218

    ("3 strikes, & you're out" - And, there's NO DENYING you are a troll, gmhowell. (Especially when you admitted it there in the links above, literally, in your own words!))

  88. Don't worry! by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Just like in the Sub-Prime pyramid scandal, the wicked and lazy in Citibank shall be punished too!!
    .
    .
    .
    /crickets

  89. Re:you have got to be kidding me by datapharmer · · Score: 1

    The difference, is that with the RSA hack, while badly handled nothing was completely compromised. They only got a free pass on the extra security, but most if not all of these systems also have good password policy enforcement, which is why the threat was identified and stopped. It is pretty pointless to count on just the SecureID for security, as it can be physically stolen, it is just an extra layer of protection like properly implemented biometric checks.

    --
    Get a web developer
  90. Outsourcing with kickbacks—likely a verygood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Other stupidities the Citibank online banking site that I have seen, that long ago left me without confidence in its implementation:

    • typographical errors in messages
    • re-implemented widgets that are PAINFUL and sometimes impossible to use (when were scroll bars that you hover over to scroll EVER a good idea?)
    • the "me-too" conversion to AJAX (while other non-AJAX banking sites that I use work better)
    • general sluggishness and unreliability
    • broken PDF statement viewing that fails to work on 2 of the 3 browsers that I have available (I feel sorry for other people trying to get this to work)

    And probably more; those are just what come immediately to mind.

    The Citibank online banking site is simply an incompetent piece of work. If the characterisation of its "security" implementation is correct in the FA, then this clearly has crossed the line into criminal incompetence. The contractor should be blacklisted. Those at Citibank who hired the contractor should be fired, disciplined and demoted.

    It seems very plausible that kickbacks were involved; there's almost no doubt that a large chunk of it found its way back into the pockets of the people who selected the contractor. These schemes are absolutely rampant.

  91. Shoddy design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That isn't a hack that's shoddy programming... Just wow, how could you not see that being exploited??!!

  92. Outsource much? by sumdumgai · · Score: 1

    This is the kind of problem you have when you totally code with entry level or outsourced programmers. ANY programmer with a few years of experience would see that one coming.

    --
    âoeIn theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." â Albert Einstein
  93. Debt. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Banks make all their money through debt now anyway, why should they give a flying fsck about personal banking security? Heck they should have less security, so that "hackers" (I use that word liberally) can take out fake loans and money in other people's name, and than city bank can sell those debts to another back for big profits. What could possibly go wrong?

  94. Re:$20 says that code was written by a contractor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should CERT issue an advisory on outsourcing as a hot new attack vector?

    where's the 'like' button when you need one!

  95. Virtual Account Numbers by wbean · · Score: 1

    Once you are logged in to a Citibank credit card account you can generate a virtual account number, complete with expiration date and cvv. That would have been an easy way to exploit the compromised accounts, without knowing the password, expiration date or cvv.

  96. Article's page is "interesting" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I sent the link to a friend who unfortunately didn't have popups disabled in the browser.

    His laptop was immediately infected with malware; and McAfee didn't catch it......

    THAT is interesting!

  97. Re:you think citibank gives a flying fuck because. by blair1q · · Score: 1

    there was, but Ally Bank is letting its interest rates decay (3% a tear ago, 0.5-1.0% today). fee hikes come next, then they get a Close notice from me.

  98. Re:you think citibank gives a flying fuck because. by orngjce223 · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of a credit union? It's curious how much service changes when you remove shareholders from the equation...

    --
    Note: I was 13 when I wrote most of this. Take with several grains of salt.