Apple Hits 15b App Store Downloads, But Loses "App Store" Name Skirmish

Coldeagle writes "Apple has been dealt a blow in its 'App Store' trademark case, with a federal judge denying its request for an injunction to stop Amazon from using the term." Apple probably wouldn't trade the name exclusivity it seeks, though, for the success they've found with the business model; the company announced today that the App Store has reached 15 billion downloads.

Comments

Thank god

[Flyerman]

App Store was way too generic for a trademark. That's the problem with coining a term, at least xerox was the name of their company.

Re:Thank god

[Lord Kano]

If Microsoft was able to successfully defend their "Windows" trademark, Apple had a fighting chance. Fortunately, in this case, sanity won the day.
It could have just as easily gone in their favor.

LK

Re:Thank god

[cgeys]

What's funny is that Apple zealots always try to say that Apple "barely breaks even" with app store and that they make money by selling hardware. I'm not sure why it's so hard for someone to understand that they can do both.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is only a trade mark for operating systems though. You can still call your inspirational self-help video series "Windows" if you want.

Re:Thank god

[creat3d]

Why does Apple matter to you that much? Why do you care so much about a company?

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does it even matter to you that much? Why do you care so much about a facet of a company you claim to hate? Weird.

You know someone cares about something a lot when they post a comment on the internet about it. From that point on, you can make assumptions on their feelings on state them as facts.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does it even matter to you that much? Why do you care so much about a facet of a company you claim to hate? Weird.

Why do you feel compelled to comment on Apple every single time they are mentioned on Slashdot? And have you ever, in your entire history of posting here, said just one thing negative of Apple?

Re:Thank god

[jbeaupre]

Microsoft was not successful in defending the "Windows' trademark. They dodged a bullet. It was looking pretty bad for them, so they settled out of court.

http://www.silicon.com/technology/software/2004/02/11/lindows-wins-in-us-court-microsoft-ruling-39118328/

Re:Thank god

[artor3]

"Windows" is not a generic term for a computer operating system, any more than "Apple" is for a computer company. "App Store" for a store that sells apps, however...

Re:Thank god

[Compaqt]

Huh? Microsoft was not able to defend their Windows trademark.

They reached a mutually beneficial settlement with Lindows. (Lindows changed their name in exchange for $$.)

Re:Thank god

[SuperKendall]

Why does Apple matter to you that much?

Apple matters to me to some extent because I like the hardware and software. So I follow updates with some interest.

For someone that hates it though... just seems weird to me they'd comment on it. I follow Windows updates too out of curiosity but I hardly ever post on it.

Re:Thank god

[SuperKendall]

And have you ever, in your entire history of posting here, said just one thing negative of Apple?

Of course, because unlike you I am a rational person not acting only on emotion.

For example, I still think OS X printing lags way behind Windows printing controls. Even with Lion they've only just moved beyond primitive...

And I have said repeatedly this or that patent lawsuit was stupid.

You see, I can realize strengths and weaknesses of platforms I use and like most technical users find that software patents are doing a lot more harm than good.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, because unlike you I am a rational person not acting only on emotion.

I've actually never commented on the merits of OS X or iOS because I own neither. I posted about WebKit licensing technicalities once, because it's involved in other projects, but that's all I've written about Apple.

I only pointed out your apparent allegiance because I've probably read at least 600 pro-Apple posts from you, and 0 anti- posts. Am I biased? I dunno. I also dislike sworn partisans, one-sided critics, and apologists & haters. So it's not like I have a vendetta against Apple. Anyone who swears fealty or opposition to a corporation should be distrusted in my opinion.

...btw, quirks against a platform don't really count as political disagreements. Why not mention an official position of Apple which you object to? Fuck, even a lot of the Google proponents I've conversed with take the occasional stance to Google: Analytics, R&D focus, Linux efforts, China, search ranking, ChromeOS/NaCl, et cetera.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

You see, I can realize strengths and weaknesses of platforms I use and like most technical users find that software patents are doing a lot more harm than good.

Isn't that a cop-out? Software patents aren't a matter of pro or con in regards to a specific organization. Software patents are a fact of doing business, of being subject to the law of the land, and being for or against them isn't related to the opinions one holds towards the plaintiff company. It's a matter of State policy, not business practices.

Re:Thank god

[micheas]

I would think that Windows would count as a generic term for a computer windowing system, but that's just me.

Re:Thank god

[SuperKendall]

I only pointed out your apparent allegiance because I've probably read at least 600 pro-Apple posts from you, and 0 anti- posts

Its because in recent years anti-Apple sentiment has flourished on Slashdot - and that word is really far from the depth of hate we have seen spring forth. How many chances have I to speak on anything actually technical compared to the MANY opportunities presented daily to correct blatant lies and mis-staemnets by Apple Haters?

It's a kind of mild OCD where I cannot tolerate letting misfactual statements stand. And on Slashdot, quite a lot of the non-factual statements concern Apple...

Frankly it's also a desire to see Open Source and other modern digital rights succeed. I've seen Apple become one of the few large companies championing those rights on auger level, thus I support them so in turn they can continue to help open up digital rights further and prevent collapse into a maelstrom of media company interests.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct, that's just you. Next time, keep it to yourself, no one cares what you think.

Re:Thank god

[Custard Horse]

They aren't hurting but it's not a major profit center either the way hardware is.

The appstore is the greatest asset to the iOS based devices. Without the appstore they would be nothing.

Keeping the store running is integral to the continued success so breaking even is great, making a small loss is acceptable. Making any form of profit - even a small profit? That is the icing on the cake.

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying it barely broke even was about the iTunes Music Store, and that was backed up by quotes during the Apple shareholder calls. The iTMS was a way to sell iPods. The App Store is a different beast.

Re:Thank god

[Deus.1.01]

Its not just you.

The term "Window" in reference to GUI's was coined as early as the Xerox PARCS days.

Not to mention we use the term "Window manager" to describe GUI implementation/module of an OS.

Re:Thank god

[BasilBrush]

Yes, God personally intervened to save Amazon from Apple. On the other hand He chose not to stop Amazon's one-click patent.

Re:Thank god

[BasilBrush]

Unless you're being specific about who said it, your quote is worthless. People in the group you label "Apple zealots" will have a variety of different things to say.

The fact is that the App Store contributes about 1% to Apple's profit. Whether you think that is a lot or a little is purely subjective.

http://allthingsd.com/20100623/apples-total-gross-profit-from-the-app-store-since-launch-189-million/

Re:Thank god

[MrHanky]

As one of the consistent anti-Apple posters here the last few years, I'll just let you know that the reason why I bother with it is people like you. All since the introduction of OS X made Apple somewhat geek-credible, Slashdot has been swamped by fanboys of your kind, people who do nothing but advertise one company's products. Most of the time, you're full of shit. In the end, people get fed up with it and point it out. People like you remove any reason to add, for balance, that Apple's laptops are kind of nice.

You do tolerate "misfactual statements". You make them regularly yourself. Even now:

Frankly it's also a desire to see Open Source and other modern digital rights succeed. I've seen Apple become one of the few large companies championing those rights on auger level, thus I support them so in turn they can continue to help open up digital rights further and prevent collapse into a maelstrom of media company interests.

Right. Since blocking support for open formats like Vorbis, WebM, etc., is championing of open source. You're just an astroturfing liar.

Re:Thank god

[Targon]

If Apple ever comes out with OS 11, then I may take another look at it, but in general, the UI feels...gooey, and doesn't feel all that fast. I am not talking about the speed of the machines as much as just the feel of the UI itself. It may be intentional, but I always feel that Apple put too much effort into cute little UI elements which make the experience feel slow. Of course, I also like to see progress, and feel that Apple UI design is stagnant which is NOT a good thing.

People had a difficult time going from the UI of Windows XP to Vista, and even without any technical issues, there would have been complaints due to how long XP was around. On the Mac side, I suspect that Apple may not be able to update the UI at this point because MOST Apple fanatics just can't handle change at this point. 10 years is far too long for an OS to stick around without major improvements, which is why Windows 7 has done so well, due to the UI improvements in addition to many improvements that came with Vista but were not noticed by the general public.

Re:Thank god

[Dog-Cow]

It could also be that the UI isn't changing much because it's pretty much good enough for most users. Change for the sake of change is bad, especially in user interfaces.

If you compare OS X 10.0 to 10.6 (and especially the upcoming 10.7), you'll see the UI has changed quite a bit.

Re:Thank god

[Dog-Cow]

Not supporting something is not the same as blocking support. Your attempt at logic is a failure.

Re:Thank god

[Dog-Cow]

There is a difference between elements of a UI and an OS or operating environment (pre-Win95 and/or pre-NT).

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

What's funny is that Apple haters always try to take something Apple (and Apple "zealots") said as if it were always going to be the case. Sure at one point they did "barely break even", obviously that isn't the case now. They're making money hand over fist, and you are still arguing with fans of one computer brand on an internet forum.

Re:Thank god

[gnasher719]

Yes, God personally intervened to save Amazon from Apple. On the other hand He chose not to stop Amazon's one-click patent.

It has actually been rejected as obvious in Europe by using the correct interpretation as obvious. The person to whom an invention would have to be obvious to be rejected as a patent is assumed to have total and complete knowledge and understanding of all published inventions in the field (in other words more knowledge and understanding than even the cleverest slashdotters) and infinite patience and time to try all combinations of obvious things that can be reasonably expected to lead to the desired goal.

So Amazon used browser cookies to implement one-click ordering. While your average juror has never heard of browser cookies and is impressed by the cleverness in using them to implement one-click ordering, the relevant person has total and complete knowledge of anything published how cookies work and what they are used for, so that person _knows_ that browser cookies can be used to hold the information that is needed to implement one-click ordering, so using them is obvious, and with that out of the way there is no inventive step in one-click ordering.

Re:Thank god

[MrHanky]

Like i said: you're a dishonest bunch. Apple actively blocks support for open formats in iOS. You cannot make a plug-in for supporting WebM in Safari on iOS.

Re:Thank god

[gander666]

I would consider $189M of GROSS PROFIT significant if it was my product/business.

It might pale in comparison to the rest of Apple, but that is a lot if money in what, 3 years?

Perspective is everything

Re:Thank god

[Karlt1]

Like i said: you're a dishonest bunch. Apple actively blocks support for open formats in iOS. You cannot make a plug-in for supporting WebM in Safari on iOS.

Right, because it's a great idea to allow native third party plug-ins in a browser....What could possibly go wrong?

But on another note, you are free to write an application and register in iOS that your app can handle the WebM format and it will be launched when clicked.

Re:Thank god

[icebraining]

And that would be relevant if MS sold a computer windowing system with that name. They don't.

Re:Thank god

[JonJ]

And the judge in the Lindows vs Microsoft case. No one cares what a clueless AC thinks.

Re:Thank god

[UnknowingFool]

In the analysis it says this:

Using a pricing scheme similar to iTunes, with 70 percent ($1.04) to the developer, $0.20 plus 2 percent of the ASP ($0.23) to the credit card company, and 1 percent ($0.02) per app for processing (storage & delivery), Apple’s App Store gross margin on revenue from paid apps ($428 million since launch) is about 44 percent, or $189 million in gross profit,” Munster explains. “This does not factor in the roughly $81 million Apple has spent since launch to store and deliver the 4 billion free apps that have been downloaded.”

Meaning the actual costs were not exact. The analyst estimated that only 1% for operating costs but it may be higher and even the analyst acknowledged he did not take into account capital costs of building more infrastructure. Data Centers are not cheap. Just ask Google; they spend about $500M for each of theirs.

Re:Thank god

[MrHanky]

Yeah, let's pretend "there's an app for that" solves every problem. Let's pretend we're talking about plug-ins that execute arbitrary code ... no wait, let's be honest: we're talking about codec support. Fact of the matter is, native support for free codecs is impossible to implement on iOS. I repeat: you're a dishonest bunch.

Re:Thank god

[Deus.1.01]

Tell that to the wxWindows(now wxWidgets) and MicroWindows(now nano-X) projects...could probably used the reassurance when MS threatened with litigation.

Re:Thank god

[LDAPMAN]

There are some pretty significant changes coming in 10.7. Theres full screen mode, changes to how scrolling and scroll bars work, and much more use of gestures and multi-touch. The change to scrolling alone will take some serious getting used to.

Re:Thank god

[dgatwood]

"Windows" is not a generic term for a computer operating system....

Please stop using the word "generic" when you mean "descriptive". They are not the same thing. In fact, they're completely different from a legal perspective (though a term becoming generic can lead to it becoming descriptive). One is a term that was originally a trademark, whereas the other is something being proposed for the first time.

Descriptive: a mark that describes what the mark covers—for example, the mark "grocery store" for a grocery store.

Generic: an existing mark that has been frequently misused (colloquially) to describe similar products—for example aspirin—and thus is no longer exclusive to the original product in common usage.

The process of trademark registration works like this:

1. A company or individual files.

2. The USPTO reviews the mark.

3. If the USPTO decides the mark is not allowed statutorily, you can begin legal proceedings to challenge that in a special administrative tribunal.

4. Once the USPTO grants a tentative approval, they publish that mark publicly in a publication that is usually called the Trademark Official Gazette, Official Gazette, or some other similar name. This begins what is essentially a "request for comments" phase.

5. If another party files an opposition (objection) during this phase, then the two sides argue their case in an administrative tribunal (similar to a court, but more limited in scope).

6. If no oppositions are filed within a certain period of time, or if the trademark registrant prevails in the tribunal, then the mark becomes a registered trademark. If the opposing party prevails, then the mark does not become a registered trademark.

Right now, as best I understand it, this mark is stuck in step 5 under opposition by Microsoft. The opposing argument in that opposition (I think) is that it is descriptive, and thus should not be allowed to become a mark in the first place. That said, I have not read any of the material that Microsoft has submitted to the court, so I could be wrong about their grounds for objecting.

And in parallel with that, Amazon is arguing that it is descriptive in its own court case originally brought by Apple to prevent dilution of the pending mark that could eventually lead to it becoming generic.

Caveat: IANALBIPOOSD.

Re:Thank god

[tlhIngan]

Yeah, let's pretend "there's an app for that" solves every problem. Let's pretend we're talking about plug-ins that execute arbitrary code ... no wait, let's be honest: we're talking about codec support. Fact of the matter is, native support for free codecs is impossible to implement on iOS. I repeat: you're a dishonest bunch.

Funny how non-free codec players exist in the App Store. A quick search brings up a list of Xvid players (with MKV support, too), WMV, MPEG2, amongst other codecs.

This app seems to support webm as well...

http://appshopper.com/travel/azul-media-player-your-password-protected-way-to-watch-and-store-movies-on-your-ipad
http://appshopper.com/travel/azul-media-player-your-password-protected-way-to-watch-and-store-movies-on-your-iphone

Heck, there's webm encoders as well

Sure it's not "native" in that other apps can make use of it or it plugs into QuickTime directly, but that's more of a security architecture issue than anything else. Apps loading 3rd party plugins has traditionally been a rather huge security hole...

Re:Thank god

[geekoid]

You might want to glance at what the trademark is. "WINDOWS" is not a trademark for a GUI OS. They where pretty clever, and they (MS) have several "WINDOWS" trademarks.

Their oldest "WINDOWS" is trademark is in regards to graphical operating systems sold with manuals; which is pretty sneaky.

MS First us in commerce is 1983; which I found interesting.

Re:Thank god

[MrHanky]

Buying apps for everything under the sun (oh, but you can't) doesn't help against the fact that you can't properly support open source on the web under iOS. SuperKendall's claim was that Apple was a champion of open source and "modern digital rights". It isn't, QED: SuperKendall is a fraud and a liar.

Re:Thank god

[scot4875]

Frankly it's also a desire to see Open Source and other modern digital rights succeed. I've seen Apple become one of the few large companies championing those rights on auger level, thus I support them so in turn they can continue to help open up digital rights further and prevent collapse into a maelstrom of media company interests.

And yet you spend a lot of time railing against Android, a truly open platform. I'm not going to track down one of your old posts to show it to you -- I don't have the time or interest in reading through your posting history to find a link -- but you have somehow equated "jailbreaking" with "open," and the rest of us who know they aren't even remotely the same thing are calling you out on it.

Also, wrt to your earlier "why do you spend time posting about something you hate?" question, the same thing could just as easily be asked of you and your posts about how awful Android is and how we should all be locked in Apple's superior walled garden.

Finally, lest you be confused about *me* being an Apple hater -- I don't hate Apple. I don't have a whole lot of respect for them (I realized they had absolutely no respect for their customers when seeing Apple-branded iPod socks that cost $30 for a 3-pack), but I don't hate them. I have an iPod (original 2GB Nano), and believe it or not, a 17" MacBook Pro. But here's the difference between you and me: I don't think either of them is particularly special. I think they're basically overpriced commodity consumer electronics. I was willing to pay the price premium on them because they met my specific needs at the time. What I do hate, however, is the fanbois who think that these trinkets are Jobs' gift to the world; that they're some sort of unparalleled technical brilliance. So, specifically, I reserve my hate for people like you, and I believe I speak for a lot of people when I say that. It's not Apple. It's you.

--Jeremy

Re:Thank god

[SuperKendall]

And yet you spend a lot of time railing against Android, a truly open platform.

Gingerbread.

but you have somehow equated "jailbreaking" with "open," and the rest of us who know they aren't even remotely the same thing are calling you out on it.

To the user, they are the same.

same thing could just as easily be asked of you and your posts about how awful Android is and how we should all be locked in Apple's superior walled garden.

I only post about Android in response to a post about Apple's flaws, where people like to prop up Android as superior in some way when obviously it's the same situation. Basically in the end there's really very little real difference between Apple's iOS and Android in terms of being open, yet people like to pretend there is a vast gulf. Again for people actually using the devices, there is not that much difference.

Re:Thank god

[Lord Kano]

Generic: an existing mark that has been frequently misused (colloquially) to describe similar products—for example aspirin—and thus is no longer exclusive to the original product in common usage.

Not exactly. "aspirin"(without initial capital letter) was taken from Bayer after WW I as a part of the effort to punish German companies.

LK

Re:Thank god

[dgatwood]

Really? Every text I've seen on the subject cites that as an example, including Wikipedia. I'm going to have to go with [citation needed] here. :-)

Re:Thank god

[Lord Kano]

Really? Every text I've seen on the subject cites that as an example, including Wikipedia. I'm going to have to go with [citation needed] here. :-)

You sir, need to re-read the page. Then, perhaps, follow a link or two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#Trademark

Citation provided!

LK

Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Bloodwine77]

I thought it was generally accepted that App generally stands for Application. It was a bold move by Apple to try to secure the word, but I am glad they failed.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[kvvbassboy]

Yes, it's also good that they reached the 15 billion landmark on their own strengths, and not on the basis of bringing other companies down.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

It is and was. This is not the same thing you're inferring.

Apple was aiming to trademark the phrase/logo "App Store" when used for selling mobile software in their singular way and not the words.

As an parallel: there's no trademark on the words dungeon or dragon, and you can even use them together as "dungeon and dragons." However, if you attach that phrase to a RPG- especially if you use a very specific logotype- and try to peddle it...

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

If D&D was a box containing 2 dungeons and 5 dragons, that would be an appropriate analogy, because "dungeons and dragons" would be a literal description, much as "App Store" is literally a store full of apps.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[MightyMartian]

Sort of like "two girls and a cup".

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was generally accepted that App generally stands for Application. It was a bold move by Apple to try to secure the word, but I am glad they failed.

Actually that's not correct. They had the right to trademark the abbreviation App just like Lucas could trademark the abbreviation "Droid". All Amazon had to do was call it Application Store and all would be well. They want the confusion of both being called "App Store" so they get the reflected glory. I'd agree if they trademarked "Application Store" but abbreviations are trademarked all the time.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Is 'app' an abbreviation? Clearly it originally was, but since in the mobile world 'application' is too long to type -- and very awkward-sounding with 4 syllables -- 'app' would inevitably become synonymous, itself its own word.

Frankly, "Application Store" feels like some shit Microsoft would coin up. It's ugly.

And there is also the ensuing habit of developers and users alike using 'app' to mean mobile apps and 'application' to mean desktop apps -- clearly delineating a difference (app: "a lightweight application on a mobile device" or thereabouts).

post-preview edit: holy shit, I looked 'app' up on Wiktionary, and my definition was nearly exact to theirs:

app (plural apps) (computing) An application (program), especially a small one designed for a mobile device.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[rbrausse]

Sort of like "two girls and a cup".

okay, so a trademark would be not enforceable. but what about a design patent?

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Ash-Fox]

Frankly, "Application Store" feels like some shit Microsoft would coin up. It's ugly.

Non-sense, Microsoft would never go with such a name.

Now Microsoft Windows Live .NET Application Store 2011 on the other hand...

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is the only one with the .app file extension, for whatever that tidbit is worth.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[bidule]

I thought it was generally accepted that App generally stands for Application.

I thought EXE stood for applications. APP is pretty recent.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Rennt]

'Exie' stands in for executable, which are more often not applications then they are.

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was generally accepted that App generally stands for Application.

True, but only in the same way "prog" stands for program. It was an obscure abbreviation Apple adopted as the extension for programs and became a common term sort of the way EeeExEee is used to refer to executables/programs on Windows. After popularizing it among Mac users, Apple carried it over into the iPhone, where it became mainstream, but long after it was a term used almost entirely by Apple and users of Apple's products.

Imagine, if you will, that you work at Canonical and decide to introduce a new format for executable bundles from the Ubuntu repository/store. You pick "prog" which basically no one uses. Then you popularize it by being very successful, building your brand around the Prog Manager and Prog Store and when you make an Ubuntu distro for 3D tablets that takes off you keep the branding and nomenclature. Does that mean Microsoft or Apple should be able to create their own "Prog Store" where they sell .exe and .app files, because "prog" is now a very popular term and is short for a generic term? Don't you think that branding you worked hard to establish will be diluted and buyers will be confused into thinking a prog is a prog, regardless of what technology it is or who created it or if it is compatible with Ubuntu?

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that was 15 milliard downloads of Apple's programmes, was it? Congratulations to the programmers that made the useful programmes!

Re:Nobody I know associates App with Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

That's utter crap. App was used as shorthand for "application" long before Apple had any involvement in it.

What's happening to this world?

[c0lo]

How come common-sense is still manifest? And so often? I've seen like 2-3 times it this year already, this must stop.

Bring on the fanbois...

[tbird81]

Apple fans - this is a website for nerds. Not for hipsters.

Re:Bring on the fanbois...

[Daniel Dvorkin]

So what are you doing here?

Re:Bring on the fanbois...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking paradox, thanks man.

Re:Bring on the fanbois...

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Apple fans - this is a website for nerds. Not for hipsters.

If you don't want them here, why are you baiting them?

Re:Bring on the fanbois...

[fermion]

Apple users are both. PC users are niether. *nix users can be either. Due to the inferiority complex, PC users tends to build exclusivity to compensate.

Re:Bring on the fanbois...

[Anonymous Coward]

More like bring on the haters. LOL

Every in the comment section of almost every damn Apple article on the web, there will be at least one or two haters rant and raving about how Steve Jobs is the devil or repeating some tired meme eg. "about holding it wrong".

There are more posts flaming Apple than those singing their praises.
I guess Frantz Fanon was right, "Fervour is the weapon of choice of the impotent.". Especially now that Apple is doing incredibly well.

At least all Apple fanboys ever did was telling you how awesome Apple's products are, these haters (fanboys for a rival product/company) can't seem to even think of anything praise worthy to say about products they "support" and can only sling mud at their "greatest competitor".

What's wrong with iStore?

[NotQuiteReal]

BTW - I just copyrighted "iStore", maybe (check in your local jurisdiction).

Also, let's burn "widget store", "got app?", "widget factory", and "buyme*".

* harkening back to simpler times when one could post a program named "playme" to wreak havoc, for the hacker fun of it (no pop-up dialogs involved.)

Re:What's wrong with iStore?

[dakameleon]

Copyright != Trademark. Just you go try to trademark iStore and watch how quickly the Apple Legal ninjas jump on you.

Re:What's wrong with iStore?

[Anonymous Coward]

> BTW - I just copyrighted "iStore"

Ummm... do you actually know what copyright is? Hint: it's not related to trademarks.

Re:What's wrong with iStore?

[Miseph]

Unless they can show that they have been using the name in trade, he'd probably win. Well, provided he could afford legal representation throughout the many lawsuits and appeals, that is. Most likely they would offer an out of court settlement wherein he receives an undisclosed sum of money and they get the trademark.

I know more about computers than you...

[Brannon]

and I like Apple.

Kinda blows a hole in your theory.

Re:I know more about computers than you...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really, it just means you're a hipster on the wrong site.

Just like being a dictator overshadows the fact that you're also a baker, being a hipster will permeate your presence, eradicating the nerd in you. You're a hipster that can use an idiot-proof computer, congratulations.

Nerds Love UNIX

[SuperKendall]

Apple fans - this is a website for nerds. Not for hipsters.

True nerds love UNIX, and Apple provides an exceptional UNIX out of the box.

That's really what propelled them to start with, Apple's fortunes changed with OS X because at the core nerds had their back seeing an opportunity to bring UNIX to the masses. And you know what? It worked.

Linux for whatever reason is just not the OS you could reasonably give to your mother or grandmother without some hands-on support time involved. OS X is a fire-and-forget computer solution that means family visits are not four hour fix-a-thons.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Microlith]

It's too bad they had to go and declare true nerds the enemy with their iProducts. After using my 2006 MacBook and enjoying every minute of using OS X, they had to go and take a hostile approach to software development and control over things they sold.

I can't support them now. And sadly that means the now reduced OS X partition on my MacBook likely won't be seeing Lion, despite having seen up through Snow Leopard.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[dakameleon]

Where exactly is their hostile approach to OS X software development?

iOS, sure, is a little more locked away, but your point seems to rest on the basis of your 2006 MacBook experience.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Microlith]

Perhaps you did not read what I said.

I gave up on Apple, despite enjoying OS X, precisely because of how they behave towards more technical users that enjoyed OS X's capabilities. And you know as well as I that the hostility doesn't extend to OS X (yet.) Apple sees mobile as the future of computing (hence the "post-PC era" comments from Jobs), however they give users none of the flexibility offered by OS X, not even the option. Instead they are actively fighting against it, picking and choosing who gets to "innovate" and who is permanently locked out. They were even ready to try and apply US Federal laws against people creating jailbreaks.

That's why I have stopped using OS X, and why I cannot support Apple. They've gone 180 from where I saw them when I got my MacBook.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Ash-Fox]

Where exactly is their hostile approach to OS X software development?

I'm not the original poster.. But if you want examples...

Apple's refusal after saying they would make 64bit APIs for certain GUI. The reason why Photoshop had to skip a 64bit version for OS X and completely rewrite their UI for OS X in the next major version so it could do 64bit.

Or maybe the lack of proper OpenGL support, where OS X's OpenGL implementation tends to be quite flaky to the point that Crossover games has to add game specific OpenGL fixes for any supported game on OS X while the same works fine on any other *nix system.

Maybe the lack of proper forking support on OS X, despite being certified (I honestly don't understand why their UNIX certification hasn't been revoked for all the broken POSIX stuff in OS X), it still violates POSIX standards. POSIX standards explicitly allow fork() without exec(), however OS X is unable to guarantee the libraries are using are async-signal-safe (forking a program even in a signal handler at any time?) which in turn crashes the thread. Did you know that Windows's POSIX subsystem is more compliant to the standard than OS X is. I have had personally less of an issue porting and developing POSIX software on Windows than OS X for this reason.

But I digress, I find their lack of standards compliance rather hostile to software development, cross-platform development. Their failing to live up to development promises makes investing development time in the OS X platform risky.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[BasilBrush]

Apple's refusal after saying they would make 64bit APIs for certain GUI. The reason why Photoshop had to skip a 64bit version for OS X and completely rewrite their UI for OS X in the next major version so it could do 64bit.

You mean Carbon? Apple never promised a 64 bit version of Carbon, and indeed Carbon was always intended as a temporary API to get developers over from OS 9. And that was more than 10 years ago. Adobe was at fault for not moving on when nearly every other developer had. Adobe wrongly thought they had the clout to make Apple do the work of continuing Carbon so they wouldn't have to do the work of modernising Photoshop.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Ash-Fox]

Apple never promised a 64 bit version of Carbon

You may find this article interesting. In particular,

During the beta of Mac OS X 10.5, the first version that offered a credible, fully featured 64-bit API, Apple included a 64-bit version of Carbon. Adobe used this 64-bit Carbon to develop 64-bit Photoshop for Mac OS X.

Then a little further...

and though the company had told developers it was going to be one of the features of version 10.5, and though it worked well, the final release of Mac OS X 10.5 didn't include 64-bit Carbon.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Dog-Cow]

I have never read nor heard of Apple sending even a cease and desist to any jailbreak group. In fact, Apple has even failed to close holes in older iOS versions when they release updates. Just yesterday I jailbroke my 4.3.3 (latest iOS) iPad by browsing to a website. How long ago was that hole revealed to exist?

Apple will not support you if you jailbreak, but they obviously don't care much if the community and facility exists.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[AmiMoJo]

FinalCut seems to be going the same way too.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Microlith]

I have never read nor heard of Apple sending even a cease and desist to any jailbreak group.

I expect that if the Library of Congress had agreed with Apple, they would have started machinegunning DMCA notices.

How long ago was that hole revealed to exist?

Sad, isn't it? Known security holes aren't patched, but are relied upon to get out of Apple's lockdown.

they obviously don't care much if the community and facility exists.

Obviously they do care, as they are fixing a lot of the jailbreaks. But at the same time, they don't care if you buy their products and support their ventures.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[Microlith]

Oh, oh. The Apple fanboy brigade is on the march, downmodding my critical posts!

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[geekoid]

"exceptional UNIX"

Exceptional? hardly. It provides pretty UNIX out of the box...and on mediocre hardware.

Apples success has little to do with nerds, and everything to do with 'hipster geeks'

The fact that you confuse kernel with interface kinda show you don't know WTF you are talking about.

iPod was a wedge to get people to buy Apple Computers, that worked. Cultivating elitism, that worked. Understanding style, that worked.

Re:Nerds Love UNIX

[ToasterMonkey]

It's too bad they had to go and declare true nerds the enemy with their iProducts. After using my 2006 MacBook and enjoying every minute of using OS X, they had to go and take a hostile approach to software development and control over things they sold.

I can't support them now. And sadly that means the now reduced OS X partition on my MacBook likely won't be seeing Lion, despite having seen up through Snow Leopard.

Outside the basement, it's OK to prefer products in different categories from different vendors at the same time.

But yah.. I get it.. this is like trying to tell an average person that it's OK to prefer Chevy minivans and Ford trucks _at the same time_.

Actually, I have a hard time calling anyone who sticks to party lines a "true nerd". Amazingly, OS X is still the most polished UNIX desktop OS out there, despite the existence of iOS, whatever that is. Oh, and get this, despite me thinking UNIX design is pretty cool, I think Microsoft does a lot of things right! I even have a love/hate relationship with open source! How is that even possible?!!112

Very fishy 15 Billion

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming most people have tried 50 apps (which is a very high average guess) - that means there would have been 300 million iOS devices. I really doubt it. I think 15 billion is a meaningless and false number.

Re:Very fishy 15 Billion

[0100010001010011]

Opening Paragraph:
Apple has just announced that the company’s 200 million iOS users have downloaded over 15 billion apps from its App Store, including both iPad and iPhone apps. The App Store currently includes more than 425,000 apps, with over 100,000 native iPad apps.

And 50? You should see some peoples phones. I've seen people with 50 folders.

Not to mention App Store is now available for OS X and Apple is starting to release all their stuff through it. (iMovie, Final Cut Pro, etc)

Re:Very fishy 15 Billion

[tlhIngan]

Well, people like me are probably skewing the stats a bit.

A quick examination of my "Mobile Applications" folder in my iTunes library shows it's 310GB in size with nearly 21K files in it.

That's nearly 21 *THOUSAND* apps.

And I've spent less than $100 in total in the app store. Most of those 21K apps are apps marked down to free temporarily (sites like appshopper are terrible for this - you can easily grab a ton of apps that used to cost money and are temporarily free).

Hell, I suppose if I were to price that collection of apps, I'd easily hit $10K if I were to buy every single one at any one point in time. (Probably more, but being conservative here - even though completely free apps probably make up less than 10% of that).

Re:Very fishy 15 Billion

[Anonymous Coward]

sites like appshopper

Damn it's late. I totally misread that as asshopper.

RTFA - 200 million IOS devices

[Brannon]

75 apps per. Many of those are free apps. Many of those are probably downloads of updates for existing apps.

I think you are a meaningless and false number.

Re:RTFA - 200 million IOS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

I still cry foul. The fanboy will download a couple hundred. Most average people will do less than 40. I would still pin it as rather unlikely that 200 million devices averaged 75 downloaded apps. 200 million people don't have the time no matter how much they foam over apple. 20 million - maybe, but not 200 million.

But i guess you can just take their word for it. I'm sure they're completely honest. Cough.

Re:RTFA - 200 million IOS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh - i missed it yet again. Updates. I forgot about updates. OK now I can see it. A person installs 20 apps. A single lame developer releases new code every week for a year. Now I can see 15 billion downloads.

But you have officially verified the meaningless-ness. How many unique apps per person are there - that would be a lot more telling than counting all of the times a phone bricked and the user reinstalled from itunes, or the fanboy upgraded his phone 4 times and got the same apps counted 4 times.

Re:RTFA - 200 million IOS devices

[Targon]

When any web page that has Flash apps on it requires an App because the devices don't have Flash on them, the numbers are flawed, even if accurate. If you take every web page that has a Flash application on it, including Speedtest.net, you could argue that each of these web pages are considered an app on devices that DO support Flash, since you can make a link to those pages to run the Flash version.

So, how many thousands of Flash apps are there on web pages out there? Can we now add them to the total number of apps available on other platforms?

congrats?

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats Apple, on being the McDonalds's of mobile downloads. You must be so proud.

Good thing you abolished the "big brother" you were fighting back in the 80s. Oh wait, that's exactly what you've become.

FU

I am dreaming...

[renzhi]

that someday, we will have real news for nerds, things that matter, instead of every fart from Jobs and Apple.

Science and technology are advancing at an amazing pace, there are so much interesting things out there, and there are so many interesting topics regarding society too. And there are no lack of submissions either, but instead, we must be all these junks about Apple. It seems like Slashdot has become a propaganda machine for Apple or something, you really have to wonder how much kickback timothy and the gang get from their overlord.

The annoying thing is that there's no way to filter out idiotic topics like that. The only way is to take it personal, and exclude topics by the poster. A real shame, especially for a site that had the ball the label itself a forum for geeks and nerds. No wonder, the interesting topics have less and less participation from the geeks, and the tabloid-like topics are crowded.

Re:I am dreaming...

[Culture20]

that someday, we will have real news for nerds, things that matter, instead of every fart from Jobs and Apple.

To be fair, this article is more of an Apple shart. There's the relief of the order of 15B, but something got away at the same time, something that they would have rather kept in.

devil is in the details

[DrYak]

in microsoft's case, if you look closely, what they have registered as trademark is "Microsoft Windows". The whole phrase. And that's enforceable. But "windows" on its own, isn't enforceable in the market of graphic interfaces. "well, we're creating a GUI. Which uses windows. Let's call it Windows !"
And indeed there are other graphic interfaces also called with names containing "Windows". A proeminent exemple should be the unices' "X11 Windows".

when you look at their other product, Microsoft seems quit fond of creating brand name simply by slapping some word (often their own name) in front of some descriptive generic word : "Microsoft Office", "Visual Basic", "Intelli Mouse", "Internet Explorer" (here the generic comes first), etc.
this prevents them from suing because of these names (similar names like Libre-/OpenOffice, Turbo & Power Basic, Mighty Mouse, etc.)

Re:devil is in the details

[Confusador]

this prevents them from suing because of these names

Lindows? I'll grant that it prevents them from suing successfully, but they are more than happy to throw money around to inconvenience the competition.

Re:devil is in the details

[retchdog]

first, there is no "X11 Windows"; it is the "X Window System (version 11)".

also all citations i can find indicate that you're wrong about the trademark. for one, look to the devil itself http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/Usage/Windows.aspx: "Windows is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and other countries."

it's an abusive invalid mark and that's how they were able to sue (and decimate) lindows (now linspire). microsoft then settled because they knew they would lose if the case were carried through.

Re:devil is in the details

[BasilBrush]

in microsoft's case, if you look closely, what they have registered as trademark is "Microsoft Windows". The whole phrase. And that's enforceable. But "windows" on its own, isn't enforceable in the market of graphic interfaces.

Actually, the last time this question came up I searched the USPTO database. In fact Microsoft does have the single word "Windows" trademarked in addition to the "Microsoft Windows" trademark. You haven't looked closely enough.

In fact the single word "Windows" is trademarked several times under different categories of product and services.

Re:devil is in the details

[thetoadwarrior]

MS do have generic terms as trademarks and according to their Trademark page they did trademark "Windows". http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/EN-US.aspx

Aero
Arc
Conker
Fable
Georgia
Groove
Lips
Natural
Nina
Outlook
Rare
Sidewinder
Surface
Windows
Postbox (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4001:3q4qmv.5.41)


The reason they got those will likely be because they trademarked them for technology specific groups. When you apply for a trademark it doesn't just automatically apply to everything. My trademark for example only applies to one category. To apply to have a trademark cover everything would be insanely expensive and for generic terms like that probably impossible to get granted.

So I'm sure you can find other people with postbox trademarked but it will apply to something else. Apple's problem is they trademarked something generic that is an exact descriptor of the product. If they wanted the trademark 'Corner shop' or even 'App Corner Shop' they would have probably got it no questions asked.

Re:devil is in the details

[TheRaven64]

Lindows lost because, even though Windows isn't trademarked, there was potential for confusion. The product Lindows was sold in the same market as Microsoft Windows and intended to look and behave like Microsoft Windows. Trademark law takes this into account: if you have a restaurant called Mac Donald's that serves chinese banquets then you're much more likely to get away with it than if it's a burger bar, because there's a much lower likelihood of confusion.

Re:devil is in the details

[JonJ]

Lindows lost because

You, my friend, are a lying fuck. Lindows settled with Microsoft, after Microsoft had all their claims rejected by the judge. How is getting $20M for the 'Lindows' name losing?

Re:devil is in the details

[nosferatu1001]

You do realise they didnt lose, they settled because continuing would likely have seen MS lose the Window TM?

Re:devil is in the details

[geekoid]

Or not:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/113860/lindowscom_ordered_to_change_name.html

http://www.pcworld.com/article/116947/microsoft_lindows_make_a_deal.html

They settled, so it was never rejected.

Re:devil is in the details

[geekoid]

Looka t what the trademark is:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4006:vnegti.7.50
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=4006:vnegti.7.51
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=4006:vnegti.7.52

This one is interesting not t's for software AND manuals sold together:
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=4006:vnegti.7.106

It is NOT for a GUI window.

Re:devil is in the details

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

in microsoft's case, if you look closely, what they have registered as trademark is "Microsoft Windows". The whole phrase. And that's enforceable.

That's only enforceable because they somehow got the unenforceable 2 word combination Micro + Soft through. In an industry that wrote SOFTware for MICROcomputers.

Re:devil is in the details

[retchdog]

wow, you actually managed to navigate the uspto site? i doff my hat to you.

unfortunately, your links are bound to your search session which has now expired.

gee, it's almost as if the government doesn't want trademarks to be publicly accessible...

Re:devil is in the details

[retchdog]

i can kind of see how "windows" would be generic for a windowing system but not generic for an operating system. sort of. it'd be like calling a car "Engine," or maybe "Turbo." rather sketchy but maybe doable; the kind of thing that would stimulate enthusiastic lawyers.

i guess microsoft's thinking was that "windows" would be even less generic if it referred to a package including the dead tree manuals?

either way i don't feel too bad for lindows; their intention was clearly to piggyback on the windows trademark which just happened to be questionable. if microsoft's os had instead been called, say, "wobegon," then lindows would probably have been called "lobegon."

Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[SuperKendall]

It's too bad they had to go and declare true nerds the enemy with their iProducts.

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. That's still a very powerful UNIX platform.

True nerds don't care about locks; they unlock them instead of whining about the existence of same. What matters is what's inside when you unlock it. Still UNIX? Yep.

What you really don't realize is that for the nerd having almost all the iPhone software written in Objective-C is a huge, huge nerd advantage - because you can inject code into existing applications with far greater ease than other platforms.

It gives the true nerd a massive amount of power over the whole platform and applications running on it.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[jon_doh2.0]

No, we care about locks. Which is, partly, why we appreciate open source.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[Microlith]

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. That's still a very powerful UNIX platform.

But unlike OS X, they refuse to give it to you. They fight you over it, making you waste time breaking their locks while funding them at the same time.

True nerds don't care about locks; they unlock them instead of whining about the existence of same

But why? Why should people support a company that tried to get the DMCA to apply to Jailbeaks? Why should they have to hack around deliberately placed locks to regain functionality that would otherwise exist by default? Why buy from a company that is hostile towards you?

Apple is very hostile to advanced, technical users, no matter how you slice it.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[SvnLyrBrto]

> Apple is very hostile to advanced, technical users,
> no matter how you slice it.

Really? Here's an exercise. Compare & contrast:

Sony's treatment of Playstaytion jailbreakers.
vs.
Apple's treatment of iOS jailbreakers.

The MPAA's reactions towards DVD Jon and DeCSS.
vs.
Apple's reactions towards DVD Jon and QTFairUse

Microsoft's policies towards X-Boxes known to have been jailbroken.
vs.
Apple's policies towards iPhones known to have been jailbroken.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[SuperKendall]

Why should they have to hack around deliberately placed locks to regain functionality that would otherwise exist by default?

As an Android user rooting their own phone first, then get back to me.

Why buy from a company that is hostile towards you?

Why would I indeed? I wouldn't.

I buy from Apple because they are VERY friendly toward the nerd in how they build systems and the flexibility I derive from them. They are one of the few companies left that really appreciates quality of design in hardware and software together.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[Anonymous Coward]

I buy from Apple because they are VERY friendly toward the nerd in how they build systems and the flexibility I derive from them. They are one of the few companies left that really appreciates quality of design in hardware and software together.

Dude, being a nerd is not about buying quality design hardware and software, that's just being a lazy prick who can't handle when things break, quite the opposite of a nerd.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[BasilBrush]

Can I play?

Sony's treatment of Playstaytion jailbreakers.
vs.
Apple's treatment of iOS jailbreakers.

Sony prosecuted jailbreakers. Apple didn't.

The MPAA's reactions towards DVD Jon and DeCSS.
vs.
Apple's reactions towards DVD Jon and QTFairUse

MPAA prosecuted. Apple didn't.

Microsoft's policies towards X-Boxes known to have been jailbroken.
vs.
Apple's policies towards iPhones known to have been jailbroken.

Microsoft withdrew already paid for online services from jailbreakers. Apple didn't.

You make a fine point.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[Microlith]

Apple is less hostile to me than company X, but still hostile. That makes me like them!

I guess this is the abused Apple fanboy form of Stockholm syndrome.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[Microlith]

As an Android user rooting their own phone first, then get back to me.

Beats me about that too, unsurprisingly I don't own an Android device. I bought an N900, which I was able to get Root access trivially and without relying on any exploits.

Why would I indeed? I wouldn't.

Yet you do. You buy into Apple's locked down mobile space.

I buy from Apple because they are VERY friendly toward the nerd in how they build systems and the flexibility I derive from them.

Except that in the mobile space they explicitly deny that to you, and require you jump through hoops and pay for access. And even then you don't get full access over your own devices.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[LDAPMAN]

Apple does not recognize an "advanced technical users" category of iOS users. They have regular users and iOS developers. Become a developer and you can do anything you like.

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[Rennt]

Apple is very hostile to advanced, technical users, no matter how you slice it.

Apple does not recognize an "advanced technical users" category of iOS users. They have regular users and iOS developers.

Hmm, so not hostile then. More passive aggressive?

Re:Nerds Love Mobile UNIX and POWER

[SuperKendall]

Dude, being a nerd is not about buying quality design hardware and software, that's just being a lazy prick who can't handle when things break, quite the opposite of a nerd.

Considering I used to fix broken ethernet drivers in Linux I can say you don't know what you are talking about.

Any nerd in his right mind CAN fix things that become a problem, but would prefer they not break to begin with.

A true nerd is about efficiency, not needless effort just because you CAN do something.

You strike me as one of those faux nerds that think you are a nerd but are really just masturbating with technology.

The whys and wherefores

[SuperKendall]

If you don't want them here, why are you baiting them?

He secretly desperately desires a Mac, but he cannot yet come out of the iCloset he has put himself into.

Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[SmallFurryCreature]

If you think OSX is unix, you never used unix. Apple really went to town on the cute and innocent opensource OS like a pedo on a 4yr old and turned it into a twisted psycho vision of itself.

OSX is not Unix. Go ahead and use it, you will find many many things changed to accomodate the single (active) user nature of OSX.

Oh and Apple provides an exceptional UNIX out of the box?

Really? Where is the cli on the iPhone? On the iPad? On the iPod? Oh, just on their PC's... well that is actually just a small section then of their total market.

OSX is Lindows on more expensive hardware.

Re:Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[SuperKendall]

If you think OSX is unix, you never used unix.

Well I've extensively used and programmed on various flavors of Linux, AIX, HPUX, and BSD... that's besides the HP/MPE and VMS systems (which of course are not UNIX but broaden the mind) but if you think somehow I need more experience please list what I am missing. Frankly I am thinking you probably have way to narrow a definition of UNIX.

Go ahead and use it, you will find many many things changed to accomodate the single (active) user nature of OSX.

Yes, many things are changed, which is the reason I started using OS X day to day instead of Linux.

Really? Where is the cli on the iPhone? On the iPad? On the iPod?

Just as far away as it is on many other UNIX systems... APT.

Although CLI comes automatically with jailbreaking.

If you really knew and deeply understood UNIX you wouldn't freak out about a CLI not shipping on a system by default. It's just another user process...

Re:Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[BasilBrush]

OSX is not Unix.

Guess what. Linux Is Not UniX. OSX on the other hand is a fully certified version of UNIX.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification

Really? Where is the cli on the iPhone? On the iPad? On the iPod?

iOS isn't Unix. It's derived from OSX with is Unix, but it's had all the things that are unnecessary for a smartphone stripped out, such as the cli and cli supporting executables.

But once again, OSX *IS* Unix.

Oh, just on their PC's... well that is actually just a small section then of their total market.

What the fuck has the size of the market vs consumer smartphones got to do with it? Guess what? Unix is a niche. It ain't mass market for anybody. But OSX has the biggest market of all of all the Unices.

Re:Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[Dog-Cow]

Neither (ba|c|k|z)sh nor X Window System is Unix.

You have a lot to learn.

Re:Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[TheRaven64]

If you think OSX is unix, you never used unix

If you've used OS X 10.5 on Intel with the developer tools installed, then you've used UNIX. It is certified by The Open Group as conforming to the latest version of the Single UNIX Specification.

OSX is not Unix. Go ahead and use it, you will find many many things changed to accomodate the single (active) user nature of OSX.

Name one. One example of where OS X deviates from UNIX in any way other than adding things. Not ways in which OS X deviates from UNIX other than by adding things on top. Not ways in which OS X is not like Linux. Not ways in which OS X is not like Solaris or other BSD variants.

Re:Yeah well. If exceptional means "special"

[Karlt1]

f you think OSX is unix, you never used unix.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification.ars

I think Mac OS X is Unix because the Open Group that certifies operating systems as "Unix" said so. Despite the protests of random slashdot poster #593017.

Nerds love Open Source

[SuperKendall]

No, we care about locks. Which is, partly, why we appreciate open source.

Few people care as much about open source as I do. I contribute to the FSF every year, do you?

One of the great things about the iPhone as a platform is there is a TON of open source to do things, and it's built on top of a lot of open source technologies (like Webkit and GCD).

All the major players in mobile are locked down to some degree, so I focus on what I can DO with a platform. And there the iPhone excels.

Re:Nerds love Open Source

[Targon]

When you need to jailbreak a device because the company that makes the product doesn't "approve" of a lot of software out there, that is a clear sign of the company standing for being closed and against freedom. I am not talking about clearly negative software that is harmful to users, I am talking about Apple saying "we don't ALLOW this because we don't like it".

Apple is following the lead of the Chinese government, where a company or individual can get their applications banned from the Apple App Store because of personal dislike by a company employee. This is the problem with Apple, and the more people allow that sort of behavior, the worse Apple will get. I expect that if Facebook got into a war with Apple, that Apple would update the OS to disallow all Facebook apps and even access to the Facebook web page on iDevices.

Re:Nerds love Open Source

[LDAPMAN]

You do not need to jailbreak to run any software you want. Apple divides their iOS users into two and only two groups. the first group is ordinary users who can only run software from the app store or from enterprise distribution points. The second group is iOS developers who can run anything the damn well please on their devices.

Becoming an iOS developer is easy. Pay your $99 and sign up. I can see where you might bitch about the cost but it is not true to say that Apple prevents you from running anything you like on your phone.

Re:Nerds love Open Source

[Microlith]

You do not need to jailbreak to run any software you want.

You do.

The second group is iOS developers who can run anything the damn well please on their devices.

iOS developers who pay $100 for limited access to their own devices. Last I checked, you had to sign these with developer certificates that had a limited runtime and limited redistribution abilities. So you are restricted, even after becoming a "developer."

Not a cop out

[SuperKendall]

Isn't that a cop-out? Software patents aren't a matter of pro or con in regards to a specific organization.

No, because a true shill would defend a company regardless of rightness or wrongness of specific patent uses.

I have said when I think Apple is using the leverage of patents in an unfair manner.

Just because patents are not a matter of pro or con on their own does not mean attitudes toward them cannot help show intent.

Re:Not a cop out

[Anonymous Coward]

The most convincing shills engage in half-truths with every other sentence. A smart shill would decry software patents on Slashdot, because he knows the audience abhors them, and because he knows that calling out software patents doesn't harm his employer organization. In fact, I believe the recurring Microsoft shill hereabouts between 2 and 6 months ago ('devxo'?) had made posts such as "I am against software patents. Microsoft's tactics are clearly disappointing. But don't their competitors also engage in patent lawsuits. Why is it wrong for Microsoft to do so but not the others?"

Shills who issue nothing but blind praise are easily identified and ignored. :)

/tinfoil-hat

Re:Not a cop out

[SuperKendall]

The most convincing shills engage in half-truths with every other sentence.

The MOST convincing shills would claim others are shills in order to silence a message their masters disagreed with.

As for my own messages, the law of KISS says I am who I say I am - especially since MY history here runs far deeper and longer than any Apple interest, while you are not even a ghost.

Re:Not a cop out

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, sorry dude, I wasn't even trying to imply that you were a shill. I thought my tinfoil comment at the end would make that obvious :(.

I am kinda perplexed by your devotion (isn't it boring to discuss Apple technology all the time?) but there's plenty of that weirdity in non-tech sectors too :).

On politics

[SuperKendall]

btw, quirks against a platform don't really count as political disagreements. Why not mention an official position of Apple which you object to?

Like what? Generally I support Apple because a large majority of "positions" Apple holds I agree with, including protecting the security of end users and making computing easier and more accessible being a priority. What exactly am I supposed to be disagreeing with here, since obviously you have something in mind. Spit it out.

I've said in the past when I thought Apple held stupid positions, and I will continue to do so in the future. But by and large they are I think making mostly good choices for the computer industry and computer users.

15 billion?

[swell]

"App Store has reached 15 billion downloads."

And how many of those were the weekly 'updates'? I've noticed that certain companies publish frequent updates to their freeware which are actually reminders to buy the paid version. A single App may be downloaded several times in a month or a year due to these 'updates'. I suppose Apple is counting them as unique downloads.

Re:15 billion?

[spheric_harlot]

Apple has in the past made a point of specifically mentioning that these are individual downloads, NOT updates. While I don't know, I think we can assume that this is the case here.

Re:15 billion?

[wvmarle]

First line of TFA:

200 million iOS users have downloaded over 15 billion apps from its App Store

That equates to an average of 75 downloads per iOS user. That's a lot.

Now I have no idea how many apps a typical iOS user has installed on their phone, but if it's half that I'd be surprised. So sure there are many updates included in this number.

This site has some more statistics on the app's value and prices paid (no idea on the reliability of these numbers, other than that they sound altogether plausible to me). They claim that the average payment amount per app (averaging in the free apps!) is $0.91. TFA mentions a total of $2.5b paid out to developers, which is 70% of the price a user pays, so $3.6b total revenue. This results in about 4 billion total app downloads, or more like 20 per iOS user. An already much more reasonable sounding number. And that also means 11 billion (an average of almost three per installed app) are updates.

Re:15 billion?

[MavEtJu]

> That equates to an average of 75 downloads per iOS user. That's a lot.

I just checked mine: I have downloaded a total of 225 apps on my iPhone 3GS, which I bought a year ago.

Going through the list there are a lot of one-time usage apps on (voting and event related which I checked once or twice and then deleted, games which I played until finished and then removed, documentation/walkthrough for games). Right now I have about 100 apps installed.

So 75 downloads is easily doable.

My aunt on the other hand has only 15 apps installed. It still averages out :-)

Re:15 billion?

[wvmarle]

I think your aunt is much closer to the average user than you are... this as most /. users are power users.

And just out of curiousity: how many of those were paid and how many free? The site I linked to mentions that while 3 out of 4 apps on the market are paid apps, 3 out of 4 downloads are free apps.

Personally I'm a cheapskate Android user; the two dozen or so apps that I have installed are all free. I've yet to pay for an app. The required registration for that is an objection to me.

Re:15 billion?

[Ash-Fox]

I think your aunt is much closer to the average user than you are... this as most /. users are power users.

Note: I am not the grandparent.

To be fair, I've met some people (7 that I can recall) who filled their phones to the brim with applications and then asked for my help because the phone kept having issues due to not having any space left (I'm sure they had far more 200 applications).

I don't think it's that uncommon.

Re:15 billion?

[BasilBrush]

Personally I'm a cheapskate Android user; the two dozen or so apps that I have installed are all free. I've yet to pay for an app.

And I don't think you're untypical of Android users. That's the major reason why commercial developers prefer to develop for iPhone. iPhone users tend to buy more apps than Android users.

And in the main I don't think it's an ideological difference, just an economic one. iPhones are more expensive to buy than Androids, so people with more disposable cash are likely to buy iPhone, people who for what ever reason want to spend less money are more likely to buy an Android.

Re:15 billion?

[wvmarle]

A reason for me to buy that particular model (an LG 500P) was that it was about half price of an iPhone... now surely iPhone has the better hardware (particularly screen resolution), but at least I can swap out my battery, and really need so when I go out a day geocaching - GPS eats battery badly!

Re:15 billion?

[LoganDzwon]

15b unique downloads. updates and re-downloading something you already bought is not counted. However, free apps ARE counted. I'd estimate between 3b and 4b paid downloads.

Re:15 billion?

[LoganDzwon]

75 apps really isn't. there are 16 apps on each page. If you don't use folders that is 4 and half pages. Most iPhone users I know have that or more. Granted, MANY apps are one-hitters.

Re:15 billion?

[khchung]

200 million iOS users have downloaded over 15 billion apps from its App Store

That equates to an average of 75 downloads per iOS user. That's a lot.

You obviously do not own any iOS device.

I owned an iPhone for 2 years, and added an iPad a few months ago. I just checked I have 220+ apps on my iTunes, and that's not include apps I have already deleted.

Not surprisingly, quite a number of them are free apps, but just getting the usual news apps, map apps, social network/communication apps (FB, Skype), some general utilities, and, of course, lots of games will easily get you 50+ downloads already.

Re:15 billion?

[LoganDzwon]

I've had an iPhone since release day. Not counting repairs for iPhone I'd dropped, I've spent a total sum of $80, when the new version come out I'll easily sell the iPhone4 for more then the new one cost, (under contract.)

  $600 original purchase
  ($200) gift card
  $400 sold original iPhone
  $300 iPhone 3G
  ($400) sold iPhone
  $300 iPhone 3Gs
  ($420) sold iPhone
  $300 iPhone 4

Re:15 billion?

[BasilBrush]

But clearly you're not including that part of the contracts you paid that were subsidising the phone.

Re:15 billion?

[coinreturn]

I think your aunt is much closer to the average user than you are... this as most /. users are power users.

And just out of curiousity: how many of those were paid and how many free? The site I linked to mentions that while 3 out of 4 apps on the market are paid apps, 3 out of 4 downloads are free apps.

Personally I'm a cheapskate Android user; the two dozen or so apps that I have installed are all free. I've yet to pay for an app. The required registration for that is an objection to me.

Just checked my iPad - 67 apps installed (not including ones I've deleted). Many games are $0.99. Even a cheapskate can afford that on impulse.

Re:15 billion?

[Emetophobe]

I agree. They're inflating the numbers.

15 billion downloads / 200 million users = 75 downloads per person.. There's no way in hell they're averaging 75 unique app downloads per person.

Re:15 billion?

[Divebus]

I just checked my 3GS and I'm surprised - 137 apps, two of which cost $0.99 apiece (Talking Carl and Keynote Remote). The rest were free.

I think 75 apps per iOS device is easy to hit. Every time my friends showed up with their 10 year old daughter, I let her download a couple of free games on my iPhone and she played for hours. As of a few months ago, that family now owns several iOS devices and they're stuffed to the gills with entertainment.

Re:15 billion?

[Divebus]

If you're fairly new to iOS, there's no way you're going to have 75 apps. However, if you've been around iOS devices for a few years, you've probably got twice that many (I've got 137 not counting the handful I've deleted). Almost all my friends regularly start asking what apps they should get within a month or two of getting comfortable with iPhone/iPad. After that, they get voracious by themselves.

You know nothing

[SuperKendall]

And you know as well as I that the hostility doesn't extend to OS X (yet.) Apple sees mobile as the future of computing (hence the "post-PC era" comments from Jobs),

Post PC doesn't mean SANS PC. It means getting past the point of the PC being the PRIMARY platform, and to a world where it is one of many platforms as equals. Mobile is only where computing has to go to extend further than it has, and is ONE future, not all of it.

They were even ready to try and apply US Federal laws against people creating jailbreaks.

Really? When? I never read a single thing that said that, and now of course the point is moot since the law is clear that jailbreaking is fine.

They've gone 180 from where I saw them when I got my MacBook.

They continue to do what they always have tried to do, bring computing to the masses while still giving technical users excellent systems. Any change is you misinterpretation of direction, not an about-course.

Re:You know nothing

[Microlith]

And you say the same thing again.

It means getting past the point of the PC being the PRIMARY platform, and to a world where it is one of many platforms as equals.

That's not what I saw. I see Jobs and Apple making a hard push to displace the PC with their form of mobile computing. I don't doubt that PCs will still exist, but I don't see Jobs et. al. pushing real hard to get them into the hands of consumers (not when they can give them locked down hardware.)

Really? When? I never read a single thing that said that, and now of course the point is moot since the law is clear that jailbreaking is fine.

The law is not clear that Jailbreaking is fine. That was an exception to the DMCA granted by the Library of Congress, on opposition to Apple's belief that Jailbreaking fell foul of the DMCA.

Any change is you misinterpretation of direction, not an about-course.

So my interpretation of their utter and complete hostility towards Free Software and open source in general in the mobile space, the space where Apple is focusing a huge majority of their efforts, is wrong. Right, I'd like to hear you explain how.

Re:You know nothing

[SuperKendall]

And you say the same thing again.

Yes, it's odd how logical constancy leads one to the same conclusion time and time again!

I see Jobs and Apple making a hard push to displace the PC with their form of mobile computing.

Then you are blind or not looking. I was *at* the last Apple developer conference - Lion was just as much a topic that was covered as any iOS device. APple is pushing hard for developers to ALSO support that platform.

That was an exception to the DMCA granted by the Library of Congress,

Which specifically mentioned jailbreaking, which specifically clears that action. It can't get much clearer than that without the whole Supreme Court coming over to your house, dumping a vat of Gatoraide over your head, and screaming JAILBREAKING IS LEGAL.

Not to mention that it was in practical legal anyway, since Apple NEVER made a motion to sue jail breakers, and there are many millions of jailbroken iPhones at this point.

So my interpretation of their utter and complete hostility towards Free Software and open source in general in the mobile space, the space where Apple is focusing a huge majority of their efforts, is wrong.

Considering just the contributions to Webkit, the open sourcing of GCD and ZeroConf and other things - yes it's wrong, absurdly so. It's almost like you are a parody of the Apple hater with no ears or eyes, just raw hate from Apple flowing out with no input allowed the other way.

I can understand how someone MIGHT get confused about Apple's support of the PC platform going forward, if you carefully avoiding reading anything. But a technical user claiming Apple is not a friend of Open Source is someone is deep and active denial.

I'll let you have the last response since you won't pay attention to a thing I've said anyway; your type doesn't care how much evidence is presented, you believe what you want and nothing will shake it. I present this information only for the other readers who might be confused by the things you say are true.

Re:You know nothing

[Microlith]

The Apple brigade has modded me down again. Questioning Jobs is not allowed on Slashdot.

Which specifically mentioned jailbreaking, which specifically clears that action. It can't get much clearer than that without the whole Supreme Court coming over to your house, dumping a vat of Gatoraide over your head, and screaming JAILBREAKING IS LEGAL.

Since caps are the name of the game: THAT THIS DECISION HAD TO BE MADE SHOWS APPLE'S INTENTIONS. Deny it all you want, but they absolutely do not want you Jailbreaking.

Considering just the contributions to Webkit, the open sourcing of GCD and ZeroConf and other things - yes it's wrong, absurdly so.

Nice red herring. I am talking EXPLICITLY about their attitude towards users in the mobile space.

It's almost like you are a parody of the Apple hater with no ears or eyes, just raw hate from Apple flowing out with no input allowed the other way.

I get it, I get it. Disagreeing with Apple and their actions is impossible, and anyone who does is obviously a blind Apple hater.

I'll let you have the last response since you won't pay attention to a thing I've said anyway

Ah, the passive agressive "I think I've won this argument, and you're obviously deluded and crazy!" retreat.

your type doesn't care how much evidence is presented, you believe what you want and nothing will shake it. I present this information only for the other readers who might be confused by the things you say are true.

I know, I'm CRAZY because I won't accept that Apple's take on mobile devices (locked down, restricted devices with no ability to optionally and freely access the full capabilities of their devices) is the RIGHT and BEST way to do things.

The pro-Lockdown, pro-DRM Apple brigade is strong on Slashdot.

Re:You know nothing

[geekoid]

I think that at this point, it's pretty damn clear that Macs with iOS are just around the corner. It's the model they are moving to.

"point is moot since the law is clear that jailbreaking is fine."
A) whose said it was fine?
B) I't's not moot. Clearly they tried to be consumer hateful in the regarding. It shows that they will try to do what every they can to lock the user away from the hardware.

Re:You know nothing

[SuperKendall]

Questioning Jobs is not allowed on Slashdot.

Sure it is, I've done it before. The funny thing about Apple Haters is that they are truly the ones with a "cult of Jobs", you are obviously obsessed (not in a good way) with him. To me he's been a really good CEO with generally good ideas, but he will head out and Apple will carry on.

THAT THIS DECISION HAD TO BE MADE SHOWS APPLE'S INTENTIONS

No, it was simply a clarification. The reality is that Apple never did anything to go after jail breakers or the people that wrote jailbreaking tools. The only thing they ever did was issue a few press releases stating they thought it might be an issue - but actions speak louder than words, EVEN WHEN YOU SHOUT.

Nice red herring. I am talking EXPLICITLY about their attitude towards users in the mobile space.

Webkit *is* all about the mobile space. That herring in green.

Disagreeing with Apple and their actions is impossible

It's possible if you stick to facts and not fantasy.

Disagreeing with Apple and their actions is impossible

Passive agressive is the only way to deal with delusional people, it works really well.

I know, I'm CRAZY because I won't accept that Apple's take on mobile devices

Because you will not see or accept facts. A crazy person is in fact someone who literally cannot process input from the outside world to change opinions or thought.

The pro-Lockdown, pro-DRM Apple brigade is strong on Slashdot.

Lockdown by default is good for users, as long as technical users can work around it. Check.

Apple is the company that single-handedly eliminated DRM on music files across the industry, which I know you can never understand but is another fact...

Now I will let you have the last response, your last blathering was somewhat unique so I felt like it could be annotated for the readers for further benefit.

Re:You know nothing

[SuperKendall]

I think that at this point, it's pretty damn clear that Macs with iOS are just around the corner. It's the model they are moving to.

From attending the Apple Developer conference it's clear you are wrong. Apple thinks of PC's as being totally separate interfaces from the iOS mobile devices. I think you are thinking of Microsoft here with Windows 8.... Apple has made no moves to a touchscreen for example, touch input coming through trackpads instead.

A) whose said it was fine?

Supreme court. The court of the public had declared the same thing years before.

Clearly they tried to be consumer hateful in the regarding.

Not in action. Apple has never tried to sue jailbreakers or the people writing the tools. The only thing they have ever done is close down security holes in the system that allowed easier mechanisms to trigger a jailbreak, but a company interested in wider security issues cannot leave holes open when they know about them.

In truth Apple like Jailbreaking because it's a test bed for new platform ideas. In fact the recent notification enhancements are pretty much totally from a guy that did a jailbroken notification tray, who was hired by Apple. I mean Apple is hiring known jail breakers deep into the scene, and you are claiming Apple is against them?

Madness.

If Flash actually worked on Android...

[Brannon]

then you might have a point.

Re:If Flash actually worked on Android...

[nosferatu1001]

Using flash right now on Android.to play a game.

Guess you dont have a point.

GE is hostile towards homebrew SW for microwaves

[Brannon]

Sony is hostile towards homebrew SW for PS3's
Nintendo is hostile towards homebrew SW for Wii's
Microsoft is hostile towards homebrew SW for Xbox's ...

In fact, out of all of these, Apple has the cheapest and easiest path towards SW development on their 'appliance' devices--but yet I bet you have never once complained about those other products. The problem is that you want iOS devices to be something that they aren't.

Re:GE is hostile towards homebrew SW for microwave

[Microlith]

DRM'd Systems

I didn't think I needed to make a point about those. Also, the bit in your topic is a non-sequitor (I don't recall GE ever attacking people publicly over microwave microntroller hacking.)

The problem is that you want iOS devices to be something that they aren't.

Rather, you've bought into Apple's mantra that mobile devices are somehow "special" and "need" to be locked down. They are exactly what I think they are, just crippled. Apparently others agree, otherwise Jailbreaks wouldn't exist.

Parent is not a Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent is not a troll. I saw nothing "troll" about it. Rather, I would say that cgeys, post is more of a "troll".

Apparently 200 million people disagree

[Brannon]

Or else Apple wouldn't have sold that many iOS devices.

Why can't you live with the fact that there are a lot of people out there who like the walled garden when it comes to the intrinsically limited device that they carry around in their pocket? Why can't you understand that making it easy to load untrusted code onto an iOS device would also make it easy to have the same problems with crappy spyware/spamware/viruses/etc. that PCs suffer from? It's not like there aren't alternatives. Go buy one.

Have you ever heard an Apple customer complaining that the Android option shouldn't exist? or that Google should be somehow forced to lock up their devices?

Yet you continue to complain that the iOS walled garden model shouldn't exist despite the millions of people that are perfectly happy with it. And somehow this leads to more "choice"?

You can call it crippled if you want. I guess it is in the same way that a car is crippled because it doesn't expose an easy way to manually deploy the airbag. I call it good engineering. I suspect you wouldn't know good engineering if it slapped you in the face.

Re:Apparently 200 million people disagree

[Microlith]

Ah yes, because numbers make someone right.

Why can't you live with the fact that there are a lot of people out there who like the walled garden when it comes to the intrinsically limited device that they carry around in their pocket?

I don't care if they like it or not. If you hadn't noticed, the entire industry seems intent on cramming such walled gardens down our throats. Of course, what I want is simply the ability to opt out, which Apple et. al. don't give.

Why can't you understand that making it easy to load untrusted code onto an iOS device would also make it easy to have the same problems with crappy spyware/spamware/viruses/etc. that PCs suffer from?

So don't make it easy. But don't force people to pay you extra money, and cripple their ability to share.

It's not like there aren't alternatives. Go buy one.

Not many, and there are fewer each day. But I did buy one, however it will probably be the last of its kind as Nokia is going all in on an equally restrictive platform.

Have you ever heard an Apple customer complaining that the Android option shouldn't exist?

Am I saying the Apple option shouldn't exist? I'm saying the Apple option should give advanced users an opt-out. And I'm being screamed at by people defending Apple's lockdown.

I guess it is in the same way that a car is crippled because it doesn't expose an easy way to manually deploy the airbag.

More like, crippled in the way my car's hood is not welded shut. Sure, I don't have to go tinker under the hood, no one does, but I have the option.

I call it good engineering. I suspect you wouldn't know good engineering if it slapped you in the face.

You are getting angry (indeed, quite pissed) because I am opposed to Apple's zero-options lockdown that forces users to violate the EULA to access the full capabilities of their own property. And so I criticize Apple's anti-freedom behavior and do not use their products.

But go ahead, attack me more for opposing lock down and DRM, and platforms that proactively deny users any and all access to Free Software. Because that's what this is in the end.

Forgot to count FREE apps

[Anonymous Coward]

Your math assumes that there aren't any free apps .... which count as a download.

Zing!

[SuperKendall]

This app seems to support webm as well...

Another Apple hater argument discredited, crying in his beer no doubt.

I was also going to bring up that anyone so technically inclined could add WebM into Safari if they had jailbroken it.

But I doubt he'd listen to that either, since as noted Apple Haters have no interest in facts or what you can actually do.

Re:Zing!

[MrHanky]

Thanks for disproving your own point: anyone technically inclined could add WebM support to Safari if they jailbreak iOS. In other words, the only thing obstructing you from installing WebM support is Apple's active restrictions, meaning you can take your claim of "modern digital rights" and file them under Lies.

Re:Zing!

[SuperKendall]

In other words, the only thing obstructing you from installing WebM support is Apple's active restrictions

As noted by the original poster, you can simply download an app to play WebM video.

To modify the system requires a lower level of access, which Apple does not provide by default but is easily obtained nor will Apple do anything to stop you once you have opened the system.

Thus goes your argument, Poof!!

Re:Zing!

[MrHanky]

Right, my argument goes "poof" because Apple's restrictions are buggy and can be broken. Truly a champion of open source and modern digital rights. It's almost as if it were plausible, if it weren't self-evident bullshit.

You Do Not

[SuperKendall]

You do.

I'm not sure why you make this assertion when it is so plainly false. As a developer, I can compile and run any application with Apple's blessing.

Last I checked, you had to sign these with developer certificates that had a limited runtime and limited redistribution abilities.

That's partly correct but it doesn't change the FACT that I can run any software I care to build. Restrictions on distribution are not the same as restrictions on individual freedom.

Now as for distribution, if you have a D&B number you can register as an enterprise developer and then you have unlimited distribution.

Wrong Way

[SuperKendall]

Yet you do. You buy into Apple's locked down mobile space.

I buy into Apple's mobile space. The choice to lock it down or not is left to the user; I choose to unlock it. Normal users are safer with it locked so that is the default; anyone who cares to can unlock it.

Except that in the mobile space they explicitly deny that to you, and require you jump through hoops and pay for access.

Jailbreaking is free and always has been.

I choose to go through Apple so I can have access to distribution on the App Store. If I didn't care about that I could simply create and sell stuff on Cydia, never paying Apple a dime for access...

One of Apple's Blunders

[DJ Particle]

As much of an Apple fan as I am, I have to agree that since the abbreviation "App" has been around for decades to refer to applications, Apple overreached their bounds here.

YOU are the one trying to keep computing "special"

[SuperKendall]

DRM'd Systems

I didn't think I needed to make a point about those.

No? Apple supports them for general user software so they can remain secure. APple has taken away DRM from things like music so plainly they only use it as a tool, not a weapon.

Rather, you've bought into Apple's mantra that mobile devices are somehow "special" and "need" to be locked down.

No, Apple devices are not "special" in any way. The truth is that EVERY COMPUTING DEVICE should be locked down and secure, so that general computer users could not screw themselves over as badly as we have seen with Windows.

You are the one that wants to keep computing devices "special" so that only technical users can really use them with any degree of confidence. YOU are the one that wants to keep the high priesthood of the computer alive and lording over the masses. That is all YOU man, some of us want to see the real computer revolution we were promised that really encompasses everyone, not just the technically inclined. That means same changes are needed for default system configuration that are more locked down, but it never means they have to remain that way. Jailbreaking is obvious and natural for any locked down device so to complain about it seems absurd.

Here's the justification for the lock-down

[Brannon]

1. Passing the "Re: Try this!" test: If Apple made it easy for you to install homebrew software on your device, they also would be making it easy for the casual nontechnical user to do this unintentionally. Warning dialogs or switches under Settings don't work, the test is whether someone can write an email to easily trick a nontechnical user into putting their device into a non-safe state.

2. It costs more for Apple to support customers when they are running non-curated software. They're a business and they have every right to restrict their focus to whatever audience they think will (in the end) make them more money.

3. Controlling the user experience: If there exists a substantial software base available outside of the walled garden--then this creates demand even amongst nontechnical users to access those applications. If enough iOS devices are 'Jailbroken' then the user experience becomes compromised. The nontechnical users won't associate the flakiness/insecurity of their devices with their direct actions which led them to circumvent the walled garden--instead they'll blame Apple. Apple's entire business model is based on controlling the user experience.

Given all 3 above, Apple's current approach seems pretty reasonable to me: non-curated free & open development using HTML5 and curated development for native apps, some extra cost to write non-curated apps to run on your iPhone (or within your Enterprise setup), and more or less tolerating the existence of Jailbreakers but cutting off Apple support for them (of course, always allowing them a way back into the walled garden).

At some point you just need to deal with the reality that Apple is not building general purpose mobile computers with their iOS platform, they are building appliances. The OSX platform is general-purpose. If iOS isn't your cup of tea, then buy an Android.

The hyperbole about having access to the thing that you bought is just fucking retarded and you sound more like a moron everytime you spot that nonsense. You don't have full access to your microwave, or your car, or most any other electronic device you buy.