FBI Executes Nationwide Raid of Anonymous Members

Nominei and suraj.sun write in with news about a nationwide raid of Anonymous members. CBS reports that raids occurred in California, New Jersey, Florida, and New York. At least 12 arrests were made with 15 warrants executed. Surely this has nothing at all to do with their recent infiltration of a certain company.

Comments

How about no

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely this has nothing at all to do with their recent infiltration of a certain company.

I doubt there was 12 hackers working on it or that they would had busted them all within 24 hours. How about it's all the other bullshit "Anonymous" has been causing within one year, like the countless amount of DDoS against various companies and governments.

Re:How about no

[elrous0]

And I hear some of them were actual attacks and not just counterintelligence operations to discredit them.

Re:How about no

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sun is a UK newspaper. The FBI is a US agency. WHAT is the link??????? Please explain, maybe I'm naive.

Re:How about no

[Anonymous Coward]

This has nothing to do with the recent news corp attacks. The real world does not work like a CSI episode. It takes more than an hour to gather information, and coordinate and track down criminals. Specially ones that can operate from basically anywhere in the world with an internet connection.

Re:How about no

[randyleepublic]

Why is it "bullshit" for people with no hope for anything but being used as grist for very cynical and cruel mills, to attack, in a non-life-threating manner, the instututions that enslave them. I'd say it's pretty damn noble. If said institutions do not mend their ways, (fat chance...), later it will be with pitchforks, and that will be a lot more painful for both sides.

Couldn't have waited?

[gubers33]

Until they released all the News Corp. information and emails? Seems like someone might be a little worried that they are in the bribe list.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[ElectricTurtle]

I would be surprised if these raids stopped that release. In fact I'll bet most of these guys raided are just dumb script kiddies who front in IRC, or ordinary people who have helped with LOIC and similar ops, and/or people who have had their systems compromised are being used a proxies/bots by real Anon/Lulz people.

That they are even tangentially related gives the feds an opportunity to make big headlines about raids to show that they are 'doing something' (TM) and they aren't incompetent and/or impotent by skill or distance/jurisdiction respectively.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

They only got 12 people. I'm sure there's people who can still release it.

They're probably going to come down on the FBI next.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Ruke]

These guys getting tracked down was pretty much inevitable; much as the releases are going to be. There is no way that they managed to nab everyone, and there's no way that one guy has the only copy of all of the information sitting physically in his house.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Lumpy]

Bingo!

Dumb little fake anarchist kiddies that wear trenchcoats... I wanna be a part of the revolution... Ohh I can download this app and be a part of it! SCHWEET!!!!

Thanks for installing trojan-zombie 3.42r7 Dimitri in Slanovia now uses your computer.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Riceballsan]

*some guys getting tracked down*, knowing history of anon my money would say the people caught are more likely then not just idiots that booted up LOIC, odds are the ones that did any actual skilled work and actually captured any information on any group, are unidentified. That is always how anon has worked, throw out a huge mob of random people to the front lines, handful of actual skilled people sneak in the back door. The random mob is expendable, and yes there will be more of them when they get picked off.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

Until they released all the News Corp. information and emails? Seems like someone might be a little worried that they are in the bribe list.

You seriously believe they had this entire nationwide raid planned, organized, and executed in the... what, 24-48 hours since Anon decided they wanted some attention again? Seriously?

And people accuse the government of being incompetent and slow. Glad to see someone is still deluded enough to believe in this great country of ours!

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[omarius]

No, but I'll bet they're entirely capable of setting one up to run so it could be executed the next time Anon/Lulz did something newsworthy. Great PR on a day Google News searches are running, etc.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[jshackney]

I have a feeling the FBI would not actively discourage this, particularly when a honeypot is so tasty.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[tsotha]

Maybe so, but just like low-level drug gang soldiers, these people are going to be very, very helpful as they contemplate long prison sentences. Eventually the trail will lead to the people who matter. Most people don't realize it, but financial and computer crimes carry pretty hefty penalties. Some of these people are thinking "Oh, hacking ${evil_corporation_or_government_organization} sounds like fun. Even if I get caught, they'll probably give me probation." Yeah... probation after you finish your 20 year sentence. If you were going to risk this kind of time you would have been better off robbing a bank.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[elrous0]

They've already got a nice honeypot up and running, staffed by their old plant at Wikileaks no less.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Gideon Wells]

It does look suspicious, but it could be covenant timing. Takes time to plan raids like this. At worst that removed any doubt holding the raid back. You have hackers attacking hackers publicly. To the IT uneducated this probably looks digital version of FNC's Mexico.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what have you done?

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

what do you have against trench-coat ?

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing the response will be something with many Lulz.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[blair1q]

You're presuming that the FBI's l33t-squad doesn't know the difference between a proxy and an active participant.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[blair1q]

Until background sneaker makes the mistake of recruiting an FBI agent to be his front-line troll.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[dgatwood]

If the higher-ups anonymized their communications correctly, the cannon fodder won't be able to identify them even if they want to.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, they'll finger someone; because sometime soon, there will be a paper handed to them, across a desk in a dark room, and it'll have names on it, of people and aliases of those who this particular individual may or may not have interacted with... But it won't matter. The truth never does, during a witch hunt. A lawyer will urge his client to sign it; because it's either a slap of the hand, or utter ruination of your life when you deal with these sort of folk, and the men with guns who act in their stead.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[westlake]

Until they released all the News Corp. information and emails? Seems like someone might be a little worried that they are in the bribe list.

Think about how long it takes to build a case for a federal charge you think will stick ---

and how late Anonymous was to the News Corp party.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[SethJohnson]

Reading your comment here, it is clear that you haven't wasted the time to research the philosophy / structure of the anonymous group. Which is a perfectly fine way to go about your life. You haven't missed out on much.

But to clarify the expected result of this raid, I thought it might be valuable for those unfamiliar with Anonymous to know that the group is entirely anonymous, even among members. The people who were captured would probably love to roll on others in order to avoid jail time. That is not a choice for them, however. This makes it an attractive mob to manipulate.

The feds will relish a day or two capturing headlines, pretending that "something" has been done to curtail these nefarious hackers. It's exactly as theatrical as the war on terror. At most they'll charge these individuals with possession of child pornography, as their browser cache is undoubtedly filled with thumbnails of illegal content inadvertently picked up while trawling 4chan. It's quite doubtful the FBI has captured anyone of significance.

Seth

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[tsotha]

You can never be truly anonymous, especially not from governments. The FBI hacks into relay sites and distributes targeted viruses, things that would land you or I in jail. If you're using the right encryption they may not be able to figure out what you're saying, but you can't hide.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Talderas]

Longshanks: Archers!
Commander: I beg your pardon sire, but... won't we hit our own troops?
Longshanks: ... Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[tsotha]

You're making some unwarranted assumptions here. I understand how anonymous works. It's just that people will let personal details slip. Group members will know things about each other no matter how strict the rules are. There are means and methods the government will want to know.

And you're crazy.if you think these people will escape with a charge or two over child porn thumbnails. If they really don't have anything to trade the government will make examples out of them. Prosecutors love to take a crime that brings 3-5 and charge you with 100 counts.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[mywhitewolf]

Thats ridiculous, Its very possible to perfectly hide... its just very difficult too, and people make mistakes.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[tsotha]

It's not ridiculous at all. You can only be anonymous if nobody with resources cares.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Bert64]

That assumes these people even know anything to tell the feds...
If the ringleaders are smart, and lets assume they are since they've convinced all these other guys to front their operation, then its unlikely these guys will know anything more than a made up alias on IRC and maybe the IP address they connected to IRC from, which was probably a tor exit node, or a compromised machine in china or similar.

You also make the assumption that these people are within areas that the FBI has jurisdiction over, what if they are located in china, russia or one of the various lawless african countries?

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[PopeRatzo]

I'm not sure that if it comes down to the FBI vs Anonymous that I would bet on the FBI.

And you are right, if this raid was meant to try to stop the release of News Corp documents, it was a complete waste of time.

Some of the documents are already circulating. Now maybe they're phonies trying to piggyback on all the 0-day excitement, but I am betting that within a few days the Internet will be awash in Rupert Doc Dump 1.0.

It would only be fitting if the personal email accounts of Rupert and Ms Brooks were hacked.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Riceballsan]

Why should that matter, their front lines have as little access to information as the sites and people they attack. 90% of the frontliners recieve their orders from a 4chan fire lazars post, or a general IRC channel. I'm sure there's no shortage of moles inside the IRC channels, wasn't hard for HBGary to get in, he just couldn't get crap and then opened himself up to get completely destroyed.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[ToasterMonkey]

Reading your comment here, it is clear that you haven't wasted the time to research the philosophy / structure of the anonymous group. Which is a perfectly fine way to go about your life. You haven't missed out on much.

But to clarify the expected result of this raid, I thought it might be valuable for those unfamiliar with Anonymous to know that the group is entirely anonymous, even among members. The people who were captured would probably love to roll on others in order to avoid jail time. That is not a choice for them, however. This makes it an attractive mob to manipulate.

The feds will relish a day or two capturing headlines, pretending that "something" has been done to curtail these nefarious hackers. It's exactly as theatrical as the war on terror. At most they'll charge these individuals with possession of child pornography, as their browser cache is undoubtedly filled with thumbnails of illegal content inadvertently picked up while trawling 4chan. It's quite doubtful the FBI has captured anyone of significance.

So either you're completely daft thinking the real perpetrators of these crimes cannot be pinned down _even while they brag about their exploits to the whole world_, or there really does need to be some new legislation written and powers granted to police the networks our economy pretty well depends on.

What I don't get is the proportion of posters here that think _neither_ is likely...

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo!

Dumb little fake anarchist kiddies that wear trenchcoats... I wanna be a part of the revolution... Ohh I can download this app and be a part of it! SCHWEET!!!!

Thanks for installing trojan-zombie 3.42r7 Dimitri in Slanovia now uses your computer.

Uuh, excuse me! Dimitri recently updated his trojan to 3.42r8! Get with the times please! Changelog here:
http://totallylegit.ru/downloads/superhappylegit/changelog.txt

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cheekyjohnson]

I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cheekyjohnson]

Well, they'll have to have a lot of resources if they truly tried to hide themselves. And they'd better hope that other people cooperate with them.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[shutdown -p now]

You mean, they were supposed to give me a free trench coat when I signed up? Damn, is it too late now? ~

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cavreader]

The organizational method of using "cells" is hardly something new. Ask yourself how these people were identified in the first place. Any action launched by group consisting of more than 1 person needs at least some communication or how would they organize and initiate any attacks? These communication links may be few but all it takes is one thread to lead from one user to another. These geniuses also suffer from the belief that their superior skills can prevent them from being identified and that is their achilles heel. Relying on multiple proxy servers as the first line of defense can be rendered useless by those with unfettered access to the Internet backbone and ISP data centers. Off Topic but related: Look up a NSA project called ThinThread developed by Thomas Drake. The NSAâ(TM)s capabilities are breathtaking. Using programs such as this the agency reportedly has the server and processing capacity to intercept and download electronic communications equivalent in size to the contents of the Library of Congress every 6 hours. This project ended up being too successful and he actually issued an apology to the US citizens and resigned over how the NSA used his work. Of course he has been indicted under the electronic-espioange act becuase he supposedly leaked this information to a reporter.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[SethJohnson]

Relying on multiple proxy servers as the first line of defense can be rendered useless by those with unfettered access to the Internet backbone and ISP data centers.

Hmmmm... I wonder what the search warrant for that wiretap looks like. Oh, wait. That wouldn't be admissible in court.

The tools of the NSA are not at the disposal of the FBI for domestic surveillance. The NSA uses them to passively gather intelligence. If they were used in an overt manner, then the people the NSA are spying on would be tipped off to the compromised communication channels. The NSA isn't going to divulge their methods to the criminal public at large so the FBI can collar a few script kiddies. The tools are just too valuable to render useless for such a small prize.

Seth

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cavreader]

"The tools of the NSA are not at the disposal of the FBI for domestic surveillance." What world do you live in where the FBI couldn't wrangle some information out of the NSA if they needed it? Information and tips can be released by anyone today. Wouldn't it be amusing in the extreme if some whistle blower from within the NSA just happened to post enough information for the FBI to identify these guys on Wiki-leaks?

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[blair1q]

It's the internet. Everything can be traced.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cffrost]

They're probably going to come down on the FBI next.

They already have, twice:

2011-06-07: Fuck FBI Friday
2011-07-08: Fuck FBI Friday II: IRCFederal

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if that path goes through a foreign country that helpfully tells you where you can put your requests for their logs, or through Joe Public's open wireless router that doesn't have logs or has long-since overwritten them. Or the attacker spoofed Joe Public's own hardware MAC address and the logs just make it look like he was really behind it.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[blair1q]

Keep believing that.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

It pretty much is this. There are a few actual hackers in the sub-group LulzSec in particular, then they idle IRC channels and recruit people, who further recruit people from imageboards, which can be a hit-or-miss event depending on what request they make to the global internet "warriors".
Most of the people they will catch are simple bots, slaves, skiddies.

The actual guys controlling this? They'll likely not get caught at all unless they seriously slip-up.
All it takes to hide online is any random million open wi-fi points, stolen credentials and the smarts to set up a huge network in any random corrupt country, proxies, etc. (and Bitcoin, in this case)
They are stupidly paranoid about security, but most likely one of them will slip-up sometime and destroy the group, there are too many of them for such high-risk attacks.
One small screw-up, one, just one, bham, someone will crack the group wide-open.
Most likely it won't be these guys (FBI) though, unless they get full approval to do Whatever It Takes to catch them, legal or not.

I know a lot of people tend to view Anonymous as one huge group of skiddies, but Anonymous is made out of many, many sub-groups.
Some of them work with each other, some attack each other constantly, sometimes all of them even find a collective cause to work together.
Many of them have various abilities, such as full-on expertise with networking security and software development, some just follow orders well.
There were rumors that one of the guys worked in military security at one point, another still current, but whether this is real is another question.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading your comment here, it is clear that you have overly idealistic view of anonymous operations.

While it's mostly true for random short-lived raids, it's not quite the same for longer coordinated actions.

Those working closer together will occasionally leak bits of information - starting with lesser details like timezone and, depending on careless, everything down to mother's maiden name.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[jc42]

So either you're completely daft thinking the real perpetrators of these crimes cannot be pinned down _even while they brag about their exploits to the whole world_, or there really does need to be some new legislation written and powers granted to police the networks our economy pretty well depends on. What I don't get is the proportion of posters here that think _neither_ is likely...

What I think you're missing is that many of the posters here think that the FBI isn't the least bit interested in catching the "real perpetrators". The FBI is following its common history of looking for a few people that they can parade before the public as perps, but whether they're actually guilty of any crimes is effectively irrelevant. This means that after a few days of perp walks with various FBI and politicians patting themselves on the back, they'll drop the show and move on to other things.

There's a great deal of cynicism among people familiar with the participants in this theater, in great part due to the fact that the FBI (and American politicians in general) have a long, dismal history of just this sort of "find someone to pin it on; if they're actually guilty, so much the better" approach to "crime fighting".

In particular, the FBI has long had a role as a political police force. Read up on the history of the Red Hunts in the 1940-1970 period for lots of examples. Their actions against immigrant groups in the 1920s and 30s also makes for interesting reading. Anyone who lived through this period and was paying attention has good reasons to be cynical about what's going on here.

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[SethJohnson]

What world do you live in where the FBI couldn't wrangle some information out of the NSA if they needed it?

I live in a world where the NSA is above the FBI in the organizational pecking order. In this world, the NSA will stand by and watch entire buildings go up in flames rather than divulge information that would reveal its spying capabilities.

That's not to say the NSA doesn't tip off law enforcement in special ways. Consider the 2000 NYE bomb plot foiled by custom agents. It's likely that the NSA had a hand in this but hid their communications intercepting capabilities by enabling the perpetrator to be caught through a 'random' customs inspection.

In the case of the Anonymous arrests, the court will have to see evidence of why the feds believe these suspects are the perpetrators of cyber hooliganism. The feds won't be able to say, "Well, we captured every packet traveling on the internet backbone and traced these packets to the mac addresses of these people's computers." The NSA won't allow that because all the bad guys would then see that communication channel is compromised.

Seth

Re:Couldn't have waited?

[cavreader]

The major international security services, terrorist networks, and major criminal organizations already know a great deal about US capabilities and take precautions to defend themselves. So not using the capabilities for this reason doesn't make much sense. The most effective defense against the US electronic surveillance capabilities is to not use the Internet, cell phones, or any other device capable of being tracked. Anonymous and similar groups are doing just the opposite. They are playing their silly games in the one place where they are most vulnerable while believing they are to smart to get caught. These guys are not a serious enough threat to justify diverting any advanced resources to hunt them down but the security agencies do have all sorts of ways of passing on information "off the record" if they discover something that would assist another agency. The most practical method is using anonymous tips. After all "information should be free" is the mantra of the oppressed and inconvenienced.

Here we go!

[TaoPhoenix]

Round 2 of The World Will Never Be The Same Again game has begun!

"In a Post Anonymous World, you will need a passport stamp for every bit you download."

Re:Here we go!

[airfoobar]

Are you kidding? This is PROOF that current laws are more than enough for law enforcement to track down and arrest hackers.

Re:Here we go!

[YodasEvilTwin]

You think the government and its agencies will see it that way? I wish I had your kind of optimism.

Re:Here we go!

[TheCarp]

Yes, whack a mole is a fun game and will keep them in overtime for years to come.

ROTFL yes very effective. I bet catching 12 people, who may or may not have been anyone of real interest, will shut the anonymous collective right down. Yup this is it for them lol.

They made some points biting at the anonymous hand. Bitchslap is now pending. Now the FBI moved, its time for their betters to make their move.

Re:Here we go!

[chaboud]

"One day I will have your kind of optimism. Hey! That's today!"

You can start and finish down that road all at once.

Re:Here we go!

[airfoobar]

No, they are the last people I'd expect to admit that. I'm talking about public opinion, which I'm sure the former would be willing to manipulate to get their internet surveillance.

Re:Here we go!

[Anonymous Psychopath]

Yes, whack a mole is a fun game and will keep them in overtime for years to come.

ROTFL yes very effective. I bet catching 12 people, who may or may not have been anyone of real interest, will shut the anonymous collective right down. Yup this is it for them lol.

They made some points biting at the anonymous hand. Bitchslap is now pending. Now the FBI moved, its time for their betters to make their move.

There's punishment, and then there's deterrence. How many of those participating in Anonymous thought there could be no repercussions or consequences from participating in Anonymous? I'd wager there's less than before.

No one realistically expects the FBI to track down every single participant, but if they manage to get enough to affect the risk/reward perception, it still works.

Re:Here we go!

[dogmatixpsych]

Contact your representatives and tell them that "current laws are more than enough for law enforcement to track down and arrest hackers." You know more about technology than your politicians do (probably) so be an informed and active citizen and let them know your thoughts about the matter. Get some of your friends and neighbors to do the same thing. Then, when the issue comes up they might just listen to what you said.

Re:Here we go!

[TheCarp]

If by "works" you mean it convinves more anons to hide their tracks better and remain anons then I hope you are right.

Re:Here we go!

[Anonymous Psychopath]

Nope, not what I meant. But you go on ahead with... whatever.

Re:Here we go!

[TheCarp]

Rooting for the other team is all.

Re:Here we go!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, it still works.

Part of those who'd just go and run LOIC or alikes for fun will now think "They got those guys, i don't wanna go to jail" and/or "How do i hidden IP address? I DUNNO LOL" and just move on.

So yes, it is a deterrent and it frees up some of LEA resources leaving smaller active group to track down.

Re:Here we go!

[TheCarp]

Clearly we have different definitions of "Works". I see that as the negative outcome.

The positive outcome, is the FBI gets hacked, sensitive and embarrassing data gets released.... a congressional investigation into the FBI is launched,....and many FBI agents meet up with the unemployment line, or jail time.

Then again, thats just my wet dream.... we clearly care about different teams. Funny that I am not the one posting anonymously.

Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[DontLickJesus]

Wow, I know this is obligatory at this point, but they still don't get it.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I know this is obligatory at this point, but they still don't get it.

New Jersey, Florida and New York? You're right, it should have been Maine and Hawaii to truly be nationwide.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[YodasEvilTwin]

You don't get it either. There are orders of magnitude more Anonymous members. Arresting 12 is not "a nationwide crackdown", it's a f*cking joke.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

12 is enough. Faced with several years of federal prison and a more intimate form of penetration testing, those twelve will happily start rolling over on people. This is just the start of the fun and games.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[UnknowingFool]

I think what the OP and you don't get is the definition of "nationwide". It means across a nation which is true in this case. Now you've associated to mean "large in scope or scale" which isn't the exact meaning.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you roll over and rat on your anonymous friends in irc?

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the 12 aren't going to have any information that they could use to roll over on people, because that's not how Anonymous works.

Of course, the above statement assumes that these 12 people were actually involved in any of the hacks. Hint: they weren't. This is going to turn out just like all the other arrests: The government arrested a bunch of people loosely connected to some guy who was in IRC one time with a guy who said he heard someone was a hacker.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[omarius]

Eeh, typical Newsie hyperbole. I heard an NPR story this morning about Somali kids from Minneapolis going off to join Al-Shabab that described them as "leaving in droves," then went off to say there were 24 of them. I thought to myself, "That is one drove, max."

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[jjetson]

You supply private credentials/server names etc. Not that hard.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[gnick]

That's what I was thinking.

Ok, ok. I confess - I'm part of Anonymous and I'm willing to cut a deal. I'll roll over on everyone. You know those pseudonyms in the IRC channel you've been monitoring and caught me in? That's the rest of them... *sob*

Very effective.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[mooingyak]

"leaving in droves," then went off to say there were 24 of them. I thought to myself, "That is one drove, max."

I could see a case for 2 droves here.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[NevarMore]

One bakers drove and one Krispy Kreme drove*.

* - Somehow theres always one donut missing between when I pick the order up and when I get home.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Adriax]

So they're arresting Kevin Bacon?

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[julesh]

I think you're missing the definition of "crackdown" ("crack down: to repress, to take strong measures against"). Arresting 12 members of Anonymous is not going to repress them, and is not a strong measure.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[mooingyak]

Somehow theres always one donut missing between when I pick the order up and when I get home.

Weird. Same thing happens to me with the fried cheese wontons from the Chinese food place. I wonder what causes that.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[lordSaurontheGreat]

I think it has something to do with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. They give you 12 donuts, but then when ensuring that there are twelve, you change the state.

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Archwyrm]

Haha.. Nice. Alas, mod points! Why do you fail me now of all times?!

Re:Nationwide crackdown of 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you roll over and rat on your anonymous friends in irc?

You misunderstand the difference between Anonymous and anonymous.

What about the script kiddies.

[LWATCDR]

You have to wonder just how many people are going to have to be arrested until the grunts get the picture and bail.
Anon "We are a Hydra chop off a head and two grows back" == You are expendable. Grunts are cheap and made by unskilled labor.
AKA it sucks for you if you are the head that gets chopped off.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I suspect that it depends on what happens to them. Only the arrests, and the occasional fairly high-profile sentencings, make news.

If many of the arrests turn out to be made in error and quietly dropped, that would create a greater apparent than real risk. Similarly, if many of the grunts are vaguely disgruntled minors whose parents are glad that they aren't out on the street getting into real trouble, the legal repercussions might be fairly slight and sealed at majority.

I'm not following the matter closely; but I've seen a lot of stories about raids and arrests, but no roundeups yet of whether anybody is actually being convicted of anything.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard they hired an agent with especially big hands just to do the cavity search!

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[LWATCDR]

As long as they are under 18 you are right. Over 18 and even an arrest looks bad on your record. A slap on the wrist and a few weeks jail time can mean you don't get a lot of jobs. Of course they will not get anyone and the very young and very stupid think it could never happen to them.
Like Anon says "They are expendable" so rush that machine gun nest it will not get all of you.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

How many people executed did it take before the various resistance movements in the Second World War gave up? Why are there still dissidents in China, Cuba, Iran, etc. when they keep being imprisoned?

If you really believe in a cause it doesn't matter how many "examples" are made, in fact as Syria is finding out, the more "examples" you make the more martyrs the people have to avenge.

While the stakes of Anon as a political movement are not as high as the suppression of dissidents in totalitarian states, Anon has become undeniably a political movement, and there are idealists willing to sacrifice themselves for political ends born every minute. Let me tell you something as a former young idealist: it isn't real until it happens to you. You imagine that the purity of your principles makes you invincible until the establishment turns its gaze on you and actually does something.

However once an idea gains enough momentum and there enough people involved, actually acting against them becomes politically more difficult in Western democracies generally. At a certain threshold law breaking becomes civil disobedience, and if you end up fighting masses of people in the streets you've already lost. It will be only a few election cycles before those chickens come home to roost.

I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I do challenge your interpretation of the situation as overly simplistic and in denial of historical scenarios of similar sociological pressures.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Omnifarious]

Yet, thousands die in wars all the time. All the grunts there know they're expendable too.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Shark]

A slap on the wrist and a few weeks jail time can mean you don't get a lot of jobs.

In the current US economy, I think this is becoming increasingly moot. You don't get a lot of jobs regardless.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

You are making the fundamental mistake of assuming that bored teenage fashionista script kiddies represent, or are even able to meaningfully describe any sort of "cause" other than "it's cool to be part of a group that causes some shit to happen that makes it on the news."

There's no there there. It's not a political movement, except for the possibility of the idiots who have been arrested being classical "useful idiots" in the service of someone else who has preyed upon their boring existence and broadband connection to use them as weak-willed meatbots who make the mistake of thinking they're being cool. You are way over analyzing things. It really is for the lulz, as it turns out. These are just your basic punks. Vandals who think they're impacting The Man, or at least say so, because that babelicious Goth girl in their algebra class seems to nod her head when she hears tales of angsty rebellion from nerds using Mom's FiOS pipe as meat puppets for lefty activists.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Resistance? Really? You're going there?

You are equating douche-bag script kiddies getting their rocks off hacking Bank of America with people resisting the tyranny of Genocidal maniacs in occupied Europe?

Dude. Seriously. You need a big fat dose of perspective. My mother-in-law lived under Nazi rule and had family members who risked life and limb in the resistance. Your mere insinuation that somehow Anon and LulzSec are comparable to the resistance in world war II shows how vastly stupid you are, or how ridiculously simple your world view is.

LulzSec and Anon are nothing more than bratty kids who are pissed off at the current political situation and who are smart enough to realize that they aren't smart enough to do anything substantive about it.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

This will just be the FBI picking the low-hanging fruit. Script-kids and idiots who ran the LOIC from their home/work computers. A kind of Darwinian nerd selection process.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

When you look at the targets like Arizona law enforcement, and the reasons including specifically retribution for Arizona Senate Bill 1070, and say it's not a political movement, I have to question the rationale of your perspective. Just because you don't like it or don't agree with it and want to malign or dismiss those who are part of it does not negate objective facts about acts and actors.

Political Targets + Political Reasons = Political Movement, like it or not.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only until the Hope and Change (tm) takes effect! Keep the faith!

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

That is all and good, but there are a couple holes there:

Take Eastern Europe's revolutions in the early 1990s. The only way that was possible was because the Soviet army was in pieces. Had revolutions been attempted just 1-2 years earlier, Soviet troops would have some live target practice, and life would go on.

Revolution in the US is impossible for similar reasons. Nonviolent protests would be met by arrests and a guarentee of never being employable. Anyone remember the protests during the DNC convention in Denver where a couple hundred people enjoyed the hospitality of the bullpens? Most places are going to be arrest now, deal with lawsuits later.

Violent protests? Even the towns with the banjos playing have their PDs outfitted with SWAT vans, fully automatic M-16s and equipment courtesy Federal grants. A Kent State 2.0 would easily happen again, and there would be absolutely zero consequences on the government side for the action. People not killed would make private prison companies very happy because they would be having a long, likely lifetime stay with them. It is VERY easy to get a felony in the US. A local high school got a felony conviction against a student who had the runs and soiled his pants (assault with bodily fluids). Owning more than five sex toys in Texas can get you 5-10.

Of course, US apathy will make pretty much anything a "sign this FB petition" and that's all people will do.

Hate to say it, but revolution isn't going to be happening in the US.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

Political Targets + Political Reasons = Political Movement, like it or not.

That's where you're wrong. It's "High Profile In-The-News Targets + Desperate Personal Need To Seem Dangerous And Cool = Oldest Story In The Book"

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

Yes because you know everybody involved so intimately. It is a prima facie political movement at the barest minimum.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

That mentality hasn't worked so well for the RIAA hoping that suing a few dozen, or even thousands, of people for downloading music. Guess what... people weren't scared off, and still download music.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, excuse me but you really seem to have intimate knowledge of the inner works of this operation. While you are arguing that "anonymous" is being over-analyzed I argue that you are over-simplifying this matter. Irregardless of who you think is running this show, the facts are that the ideas behind this movement are starting to gain traction among us. Obviously not everyone, as evidenced by you.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

If you think that the coups in Eastern Europe were events that sprang out of nowhere, or that something else would not have occurred subsequently had they failed, you need to refresh both your history and sociology. Relevant examples.

As for the US, I remember the DNC protests of a different time,1968 in Chicago, which were in many regards a capstone upon the Civil Rights Movement and the turning point of the Democratic Party from its association with Southern racism to a more progressive liberal movement. You can bet anybody with an arrest on their record from that moment in history wears it as a badge of honor, and I doubt too many employers are turning them down.

The US is no more immune to revolution than any other state. Things just aren't consistently bad enough here that enough people care. Compared to the states and causes wrapped up in Arab Spring, the US is a paradise of justice and peace. It's all about thresholds, and things have to be pretty bad for enough people to want to risk their lives and the lives of their friends and families.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Artifakt]

What you just wrote is totally true, and totally irrelevant. If the government slams these bratty kids hard enough to make the others back off, it goes on record as another example of the tyranny oppressing the people. We're talking about a government that is debating reducing only the social programs, ignoring the need to reduce security related spending in their talks, and so shifting towards more and more stick and less carrot, and shows every sign of going much further. These guys become another example of an insecure government trying to rule by fear and so proving it is becoming desperate and feeling vulnerable. The real resistance may have little or nothing to do with Anon/LulzSec. But, if the government screws up enough, the REAL resistance defines itself by succeeding at the public hangings, and those script kiddies can show up 5 seconds later and say, "Hey, I was part of the fight - those same people you just stuck their heads on pikes, they oppressed me. I fought for the cause. Anyone don't think I paid my dues, look at how they put me in prison and then kept me from finding work for years. I deserve a cushy job putting more heads on pikes, comrade!".
      Point is, once the government puts you in prison for hacking Sony, you are stuck for life - either your own or the life of that government. It's a rough, tough economy out there, and the system holds lengthy grudges. To make the state die before you, you may have to become one of those guys who does the sort of thing the WW2 resistances did, like stringing fine wire at neck height in front of somebody's staff car. But if you were a political prisoner and not just a regular criminal, the new regime will let you have part of the credit, whether you did that much to earn it or not. You don't always get rated as a serious revolutionary because you actually threw the Molotovs, but sometimes just because someone in the old system acted like they were afraid of you.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, you are equating partisans fighting armed forces that were invading their countries and frequently engaging in mass murders with a bunch of people pulling pranks on the web?

I'd equate this bunch more with the mafia. You get a bunch of people without any real loyalty to each other and they will ultimately turn on each other.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

Really. So: please summarize their basic manifesto, would you? Other than "Julian Assange's politics are our politics this week because he seems so cool and rebelious and stuff, and seems to know how to make cold hard cash and hip celebrity friends while running a Stick It To The Man web site." and "Amazon sucks because they hold their customers to the terms of the contracts they sign" and "Banks suck because they won't agree to process electronic payments to groups that collaborate with people who steal hundreds of thousands of sensitive documents." Or does that about cover their "politics?"

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is, that you probably don't realize how immature and pseudo-intellectual you sound.

I'd profile you as being in your early teens, does well in school, is of average intelligence, is highly susceptible to peer pressure but thinks of yourself as somebody who just decides not to smoke tobacco because you think you are highly intelligent instead of as somebody who was persuaded by propaganda and social norms.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[MoldySpore]

Call them what you will, but I believe their actions speak louder than mere "vandals" and "punks". They have received world wide love and hate across the spectrum, and some of their accomplishments go above and beyond what was possible even 20 years ago for combating big government and oppression around the globe. Call them names all you like, but they have had more impact than most people who are commenting on this article will ever have. Behind all the script kiddies who are just riding on the coat tails of their more knowledgeable counter parts exists an animal that I don't think will be stopped by arresting a handful of people in a couple countries. Nor should it.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

"You have to wonder just how many people are going to have to be arrested until the grunts get the picture and bail."

Well the US has sent thousands of soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan to die as cannon fodder, so apparently it's an even harder picture for you right-wingers to get.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

Wow, and you accuse me of making bad analogies? The mafia was and is founded on loyalty. The early mafia was virtually impenetrable for this very reason, and it wasn't just the dons and the capos and soldati, it was the communities they operated in. Whether you're talking about the depressed, corrupt, and unstable home country that was Italy and Sicily at the turn of the century through beginning of the Cold War, or the socially outcast Italian and Sicilian immigrant communities in the US during the same period, persons not operationally within the mafia still felt some ties of loyalty, whether out of fear or common culture or the perception of an effective extrajudicial actor/arbiter (the early mafia was in many cases where people in the community would take disputes because they trusted them to settle things either more fairly than the government or in their favor if they had demonstrated their loyalty over time in some way).

The mafia began to fall apart when it lost the respect of the community, both through its own internal corruption of standards that had previously kept it in balance as well as the evolution of the community it served and the environment that community experienced, namely conditions improved for both Italians in Italy (the government became relatively more stable and less corrupt, and more importantly the economy improved) and Italian immigrants in the US (Italian immigrants became more assimilated in American society, came to trust the American justice system more, and were more accepted by mainstream American society, etc.).

I swear being a historian is hard work... so much stupid, so little time and less patience.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

What would be the point? You obviously believe you know everything about them already, and they must have the motivations you assign to them ipse dixit. I have better things to do with my time than punch your brick wall of bias.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Darinbob]

Anonymous is the opposite of a political movement. They have fewer political ideals than the Monster Raving Loony Party. They're doing this for the lulz, pure and simple. It may have some idealists but they're a small minority. The point in Anonymous is to not waste time thinking. If someone says "hey, it would be funny to do X" then you want your drunk friends to say "let's do it!" but you don't want them to say "what message are we trying to send here?"

Sure they are getting a lot of "hey, I'm helping!" kiddies joining this mythical cause. But the cause is a naive goal to cause disruption or to be a part of something big.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Darinbob]

But they didn't stick with this. If they cared about Arizona Senate Bill 1070 they would still be protesting it and making themselves heard. But instead they've sprayed their illegible graffiti, had some laughs, and moved on. I strongly believe these were a target because they were high profile and it has a pretense of being political, without actually being political. I have not heard any political activists saying thank you to Anonymous or LulzSec; the most I've heard are activists saying that Anonymous is pointing out flaws or discontent.

If it is political, then it is political attention deficit disorder since they aren't sticking to any sort of thought out political view. These are the modern era punks in many ways, though much smaller in number. And like the punks they will indeed influence politics, but they'll do this because they are a sign of discontent that is hard to ignore and not because they are a coherent political movement.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

The problem with a thing that nobody runs and is loosely defined is that its easy to change that over time. Yeah, when Anon started on 4chan by doing things like troll Habbo Hotel etc. it was strictly a lulz only organization. When they took down that one chick who killed animals with her high heels, that was still for the lulz and coincidentally was a morally positive thing. There was a time when Anon was a truly chaotic neutral sort of organization that would just as soon be a jerk as be a force for any kind of justice.

This changed with Operation Chanology. Do you think that the thousands of people who protested all day world wide, multiple times, were to a man *just* doing it for the lulz? Were they highlighting the criminal behavior of Scientology merely for lulz? Some were, some weren't, and it actually caused a schism (pretty easy in a movement without real leaders) where the classic Anons attacked the crusader Anons as not being true to the purpose/spirit of Anon. While true, who is to stop them?

There are, at a minimum, two Anons today. The classic which trolls for lulz, and the idealistic political crusaders who use the {{{power of the internet}}} (that should be said with an echo) to strike at whomever they think is an oppressor. Yeah, they might not be true to the 4chan Anon spirit, but that doesn't change shit. They still exist, and they still act.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

What would be the point?

You've just made my point for me, thank you very much. A political "movement" with which you seem to be intimately familiar and whose crimes you want to legitimize, but whose purpose you are unable to even articulate, is just what it actually appears to be: a witless flash mob that validates its own illegal activities by pointing their angsty self-hate at whatever is most likely to gin up some friendly, apologistic press from the only wing of the press that ever (and so reliably) applauds destruction, chaos, and delberately corrisive flailing about in order to avoid having to actually think, act, or (especially) produce anything.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

Just because a political movement is not coherent does not negate that it is still a political movement. It's a product of two things: the attention span of the internet generation(s) and the decentralized nature of Anon. Anon is whatever a majority of persons invoking its name want it to be at any given time. So yeah, obviously it's not coherent, but that doesn't matter. The continuity of the organization is irrelevant, as the internet generation(s) realize that arbitrary structures don't matter, actions and results matter, and even you concede that they have influence.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So: please summarize their basic manifesto, would you?

We support the free flow of information. Anonymous is actively campaigning for this goal everywhere in all forms.
This necessitates the freedom of expression for: The Internet, for journalism and journalists, and citizens of the world.

Operation Payback Manifesto

Mock it all you like, won't make it any less of an explicitly political declaration.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[mywhitewolf]

You could say the same about the riots in Egypt?

just because you don't think their message is significant (information wants to be free, internet is for lulz, corruption is bad) doesn't give you the authority to define their actions as non-political, hell, you could successfully argue that the KKK were a political movement.

i think you're just over-simplifying what politics IS.

corrisive flailing about in order to avoid having to actually think, act, or (especially) produce anything.

and yet are able to out wit "security professionals", "government agencies" & "corrupt regimes".... for FREE.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats true, but its a silly strategy to keep running in front of their bullets till their bullets all run out. The skript-kiddies are the ones who are getting their doors kicked in. The clue-full and careful ones (the Svengali types), are sitting back and shifting to a different strategy (or at least different software with a different attack vector). This is how stateful firewalls work: you set up at least two states between you and they, and you set up probes to carefully check to see if they are pwning your nearest, next nearest, and furthest state. And you check in real time. When they are 2 non-obvious paths away from you, you abandon your current state, burning all current links. Lay low, re-organize, and go again. Remember to abandon (forever) the state. There are dozens of ways to remain anonymous on the internet, eg: wardrive an open WIFI connection for your first connection. Use TOR to anonymize the first IP address, use proxy servers beyond that, go in on open, non-standard ports. Use SQL Injection, cookie poisoning, java script , ribbon tables, phishing, cookie forgery, or any of a dozen other ways to get 'in'. There are lots of places to get zero-day exploits for most operating systems (especially the very common, most insecure one). The kiddies with the unencrypted IP addresses got their doors broken in. The guys who wrote the scripts the kiddies used have already moved on to new scripts and new kiddies.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[DrBoumBoum]

it's cool to be part of a group that causes some shit to happen that makes it on the news.

Because you think that the numerous suicide-bomb teenagers that are flocking to their doom around the world are motivated any differently? Very interesting indeed, I'd be glad to hear about your take on their thought process.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Raenex]

Hello World. We are Anonymous.

How do I know?

What you do or do not know about us is irrelevant.

Oh, OK. No need to read further, because I was looking for a statement from Anonymous.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I respect you and that generation. The DNC protests in Chicago were by people who actually gave a crap about the US and were willing to put their life on the line for it.

However, times change. When I did IT work at a bank, they had a facial recognition system that worked well enough that it could hit the NCIC database and tell if someone was arrested between the time the person walked in, and by the time they went up the elevator to the interview room. This was without factoring in looking up people by name or SSN either. Any arrest for any reason, and they would not even make it to the elevator (usually they were intercepted by an armed security guard with the excuse was given that the position was filled, and it would be in their best interest to turn around and leave the building.) One arrest, not even a felony, can damn someone to McDonald's work for life these days, and the bottom of the US economy is still not in sight (with regards to Main Street.)

If you look at history, after a certain population threshold, there is only one form of government that works; a groaning, brutal police state where life is at best subsistance level for all but the top 97%. The Middle Ages were like that until the Black Death caused the aristocracy to fall over as they did not have enough backs to support their feudal government style. China likewise. If we do see a revolt in the US (which I do assert is impossible because any leaders that can do any damage at all except for agents provecetur will be immediately killed via predator drone strikes), it will be changing one brutal master for another, like the Iranians learned when they deposed the Shah.

Welcome to the future. History has shown this to be true over and over again.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Raenex]

If the government slams these bratty kids hard enough to make the others back off, it goes on record as another example of the tyranny oppressing the people.

I think you mean oppressing a bunch of hackers that interrupted "the people's" game-time on the PS3 network, dished out account details on wide range of servers, and hacked sites like PBS because they didn't like a Frontline story on Julian Assange.

There were some other hacks that were more justifiable, such as HBGary, and probably this hack as well, but these guys aren't a bunch of saints fighting the good fight, especially considering their 4chan roots and doing it for the "lulz".

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, we get it, political slogans are bullshit. Are you just figuring this out now?

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

you could successfully argue that the KKK were a political movement

They were. Creepy, crazy idealogical foundation for those politics, but essentially, yes: political. All about who has the power and authority. They, just like Anonymous does today, wanted to use force, destruction, extortion, subversion, and threats - rather than rational, civil discourse and persuasion on merits - to get their way.

And, Egypt? The "riots" were fueled by the dictator's supporters. By and large, the peaceful assembers weren't carrying on destructively, the way that, say, rabid anti-war and isolationist protesters at a gathering in Seattle might.

able to out wit "security professionals", "government agencies" & "corrupt regimes"

Yes, and 12 year old girls who shoplift mascara outwit security profressionals, too. I'm sure the Anonymous members arrested today aren't feeling especially more clever than the government agencies that now have them in custody.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not speaking for anyone or anything, but it seems obvious that "Anonymous" is HETEROGENOUS. It contains people in it just for the "lulz", people who want to make a political statement, and double agents. The FBI MUST be infiltrating it. It isn't hard. And maybe I'm putting my hat on my head, but it could even be LED by government agents.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[wrook]

It would be great if the US would figure this out about Pakistan...

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are clearly insane.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

"AKA it sucks for you if you are the head that gets chopped off."

It wouldn't suck for me if I heard that someone chopped YOUR head off,
asshole.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Those groups were fighting for life and liberty. Anon is fighting for lulz. Even if some of their actions may be justifiable/righteous, many of them are also purely dickish.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[lennier]

some friendly, apologistic press from the only wing of the press that ever (and so reliably) applauds destruction, chaos, and delberately corrisive flailing about

Well yes, granted, but other than Rupert Murdoch, what other political tendencies in the press support Anonymous?

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[lennier]

We support the free flow of information. Anonymous is actively campaigning for this goal everywhere in all forms.

So Anonymous is in favour of the free release of all names, addresses, accounts, passwords and IPs of Anonymous members, then? Good to know. Where's the data dump?

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[russotto]

As long as they are under 18 you are right. Over 18 and even an arrest looks bad on your record.

Except for a security clearance, an arrest without a conviction doesn't matter worth a damn even if you're over 18.

A slap on the wrist and a few weeks jail time can mean you don't get a lot of jobs.

Now that's true; a conviction is a conviction, even if you get a light sentence.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[lennier]

obviously it's not coherent, but that doesn't matter.

[citation required], and Hardt & Negri don't count. I tried to read Empire once, and ouch. I think the argument was something along the lines of "postmodern is like quantum, it's magic, and if everyone does something stupid and pointless and self-seeking in an uncoordinated manner as The Multitude then we'll get a wonderful beautiful world full of rainbows and puppies, because of the invisible hand of Revolution. As opposed to the Empire of neoliberal capitalism, where everyone does something stupid and pointless and self-seeking for dollars and the invisible hand of The Market supposedly turns it into rainbows and puppies, which is an obvious delusion."

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[thunderclap]

I have to agree. While Anon doesn't want to admit it, the moment they went from raids of Second life and habbo hotel to protests of Scientology, crippling Sony and hacking because of Wiki-leaks, they became a political movement. They are fighting THE MAN. They can say they do it for the lulz but they are doing it because they believe they can make a change. Knowledge is power. Secret Knowledge that embarrasses leaders in western countries when its revealed changes things.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[improfane]

Anonymous is political. Read things written by Anonymous. Then read some political manifestos. They are idealists. They read like freedom fighters. You're kidding yourself if you just think they're angsty kids. Angsty kids with a point.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[improfane]

Are you a historian? Your posts in this thread have been especially pertinent.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

When you look at the targets like Arizona law enforcement, and the reasons including

Stop right there. In this portion of the thread, we are discussing how the rank and file "members" will react to the arrests. Most of the "front-line grunts" are not picking targets themselves, they are merely assisting in attacks on targets chosen by others.

The point the parent was trying to make, is that most of the "grunts" do not have any real dedication to any specific cause. For example, Arizona SB1070 is probably not something that kids in Europe are willing to die for, or go to jail over, or even pay a fine. If the "heat" starts coming down, it's not going to take very long before the only ones showing up for a "party" are the ones who really are dedicated to a cause.

I agree with you- it is a highly political collective. And there are a lot of people in the collective who are very passionate and vocal about many political subjects. But you can find that same level of passion in the comments section of any local newspaper. But how many of them are actually dedicated enough to go to jail or even die over it? More specifically, how many of them will continue to attack targets even when they know the government knows who and where they are? And the answer is- not many.
Up until recently, most Anons have been operating under their own delusions of security... they feel safe. Or rather, felt. Those feelings are starting to change, and many of them are frantically trying to locate and erase the tracks they've been leaving in plain site for years.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[randyleepublic]

More: what about targets related to the US Federal Government and it's fellow travelers? Does any thoughtful person really not find the trend of government in the US not abhorent, with ever more blatent abuses of its sacred trust? To attack such an institution that has first attacked you by betraying your trust seems only to be self defense and therefore noble.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ElectricTurtle]

I call myself a historian, but I do so on the basis that I passionately study history and historiography. I will readily admit that I do not have any formal degree in the discipline, but I plan to earn some when I leave the IT industry. In fact I plan to eventually teach history at a university level, probably for ungrateful, jaded, know-it-all undergrads. They're the ones that need it most.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

By that definition EVERY movement is political. Which is true to a certain extent, but that's not what we're discussing here. You forget that there is loads about anonymous that we haven't seen (yet ? Let's hope the fbi remembers that it's supposed to make their evidence public).

And you're incredibly naive to think that these "political" acts were anything more than concealment for attacks motivated by financial gain, or perhaps a way to advertise what they could do to some prospective employer with big bucks (spectacular hacks are often made "to prove yourself". Wait until you actually catch a halfway intelligent hacker on a server and see for yourself. I'm not saying I'm 100% certain that anon was the same as russian or chinese hackers (then again they're at least partly russian), I'm saying I'm 99.99% sure.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[ScentCone]

Because you think that the numerous suicide-bomb teenagers that are flocking to their doom around the world are motivated any differently?

What?

Some kid in suburbia who follows a link to a script kiddie package and signs up his parents' pipe for use in juvenile DDoS attacks so that he can dip his toe in rebellious waters and brag to his friends isn't really the same as a kid who's been raised in a mind-numbing atmosphere of militant, retrograde medievalism and convinced that it's best for his family if he kills a bunch of people standing outside a police station because they believe in the wrong flavor of Islam or support the idea of girls being allowed to read and write.

Sure, peer pressure plays a role in both cases, but the level of engagement (and depths of intellectual damage) are profoundly different.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[LWATCDR]

No they don't. The young and the foolish all think that they will not be the one that gets it. That is why you make the mature and educated officers and NCOs.
Hey if you want to take on the role as Cannon fodder for Lulzsec and Anon be my guest.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

So Anonymous is in favour of the free release of all names, addresses, accounts, passwords and IPs of Anonymous members, then? Good to know. Where's the data dump?

No, they think everyone should be anonymous, except for people they don't like.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[exomondo]

Anonymous is political. Read things written by Anonymous. Then read some political manifestos. They are idealists. They read like freedom fighters. You're kidding yourself if you just think they're angsty kids. Angsty kids with a point.

oh yes, 'for the lulz'...real political there, such freedom fighters and idealists.

Re:What about the script kiddies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are right, just because you don't like it or don't agree with it.... does not negate objective facts...

Given the uproar over Arizona Senate Bill 1070 was largely a fad created to allow some political targets to hide from other political targets, one has to wonder when the next pet rock sensation will occur. False idols are just that: false.

Meanwhile, In America...

[girlintraining]

Having solved all other problems, FBI agents today busted down the doors of supersized geeks with cheeto-stained fingers living in their mother's basements. A spokesperson said "these 'hacker' types represent the single biggest threat to the american way of life, and must be stopped." Elsewhere in America infrastructure continued to crumble into dust, fall into rivers, or start on fire as unemployment continues to rise, many urban centers are now 3rd world status, and white-collar criminals are seen driving cars made out of hundred dollar bills and dead immigrants. The FBI insists that random vandalism of websites is a far worthier objective for them than catching terrorists, rich bastards who steal millions from retirement funds, and the occasional rapist.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[flaming error]

To be fair, cars made of hundred dollar bills fall under the jurisdiction of the Treasury dept.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fun fact: the FBI can do more than one thing at a time.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[mr1911]

Just remember, this is your government. You get what you vote for.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Kenja]

I would rather they enforce the laws I dont agree with in the hopes that doing so will draw attention to them and promote change then to have the law enforcement officials decide which laws they should and should not enforce.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[flaming error]

Yes, they can also investigate DVD licensing violations and track the cars of unsuspecting college kids. Multitasking FTW.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[YodasEvilTwin]

I once heard a single FBI agent could listen to 7000 wiretaps of innocent civilians at the same time.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[YodasEvilTwin]

I remember when white-collar criminals still shared a sense of national identity. A true patriot would drive a car made out of hundred dollar bills and middle-class American taxpayers.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[MickyTheIdiot]

The laws, however, are subject to the highest bidder....

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Locq]

Simple, yet true

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[flaming error]

> You get what you vote for.
I wish that were true but sadly, I seem to keep getting what politicians' campaign sponsors want instead.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Wall Street. Apparently, breaking the economy isn't enough to land you in jail.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Applekid]

Just remember, this is your government. You get what you vote for.

Nah, you get what the ignorant stammering majority choosing between a turd and a douche, if they could even be arsed to waddle down to the polling place and take 5 minutes within a 12 hour window on a Tuesday out of fear the other guy might win.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[arth1]

I once heard a single FBI agent could listen to 7000 wiretaps of innocent civilians at the same time.

She must have a serious headache.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Lumpy]

Not really, they are required to spit out gum before a raid.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean they were tools for the moronic propaganda BS fed to them locally.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[FoolishOwl]

I keep voting for the candidates who promise not to murder any innocent people. They don't seem to win the elections, though -- not above the municipal level, anyway.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[macraig]

That's a moronic refrain, and you're a jackass for repeating it. The real truth of the matter is that we get what we DON'T vote for... meaning it's the intentions and behavior of which we AREN'T told before the election that we actually get in the end.

The problem, of course, is that we have virtually no useful criteria whatsoever to identify the unethical self-interested bastards before they take office. Even mr1911, who smugly implies that he's never ever voted for a rotten candidate himself, has no freaking clue how to consistently pick the ethical winners.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[MrSenile]

Except by the time we are allowed to vote for them, it's a choice between fast painful death, or a painful fast death. Maybe a death that is fast and painful? Hey, how about a death that is painful and fast.

Sure, it may look like redundancy the way I wrote it, but they're still considered 'democrats', 'republicans', and so forth.

The idiom was intentional.

When every single political figurehead is corrupted in one form or another, with very few, if any exceptions, it frankly doesn't matter who you pick. When you have a barrel of rotten apples, regardless of how many times you reach into that barrel, it remains rotten.

Want a change? Wipe out the entire government system and their corrupt backers, the invisible and the obvious ones, and put people from the common middle class into the seats. Take the power -away- from the corporations and back into the hands of the people. Train the people, for once, to stand up for themselves and not be lead around by the nose by a snake oil salesman simply because they're too damn lazy to enact changes themselves.

Sadly, won't happen. Stupidity is a law of nature and tends to breed in direct proportion with the number of people who stand together under a common belief.

I don't know why hackers, terrorists, or enemies of the state even bother to try to do us in. We're doing a damn fine job by ourselves. They should instead just buy popcorn and wait for the inevitable crash of our society.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just remember, this is your government. You get what you vote for."

My observation is that the harshest critics of government often DON'T vote for their government, since according to them it's a waste of time, the choices are all bad, the system is flawed, etc ;p

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[mr1911]

Such hostility. At least we know one person that believed the whole "hope and change" crap.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[flaming error]

> the harshest critics of government often DON'T vote for their government

Interesting conclusion. Please show your work.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[macraig]

Exactly how do you know that? The same way you know to avoid *ever* voting for a candidate that works against the public good? Yeah, you're quite the authority on everything, aren't you?

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[flaming error]

Complex problems don't have a simple answer.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how has the worked out for you in the last 100 years?

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[mattack2]

if they could even be arsed to waddle down to the polling place

Good, I want them not to vote. That makes my vote effectively more important.

(BTW, I often simply don't vote for anybody for many offices, especially local government. I vote on the issues I care about & know about.. and leave the others blank.)

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[monkyyy]

but could not listen to even part of a wiretaping of a terrorist w/o a 10 year approval process

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the FBI is in charge of solving our economic problems. In other news, funny doesn't equal smart and cogent.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[PRMan]

They've cost Sony alone over $200 million dollars. Now, while many of us believe (as they do) that nobody deserves that more than Sony, there are few bigger problems in the US right now, at least financially. The FBI has correct priorities, for once.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[PRMan]

Actually, it makes me prefer Bush. At least he actually did what he said... Quite frankly, that makes me respect Clinton, who I really detested while in office.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck - make it out of lawyers and we'll overlook your first two felonies.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[dcollins]

Yes, like Lenin said: "The worse, the better."

Or as I call it: the "Shoot myself in the foot" theory of political strategy.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[macraig]

Yeah, whether intentional or not, Bush did manage to be more "transparent" himself than Obama seems to be managing. That doesn't say much for the bureaucracy he managed, of course. I have more respect for Clinton since he left office than when he was in it, partly because I've learned more about what actually took place and why; I was ambivalent about him in office and didn't hate nor despise him for philandering so much as I despised him for being disingenuous and deceitful about it. (All men who desire power/wealth/influence desire it to advance their sexual prospects, whether they are conscious of that instinctive fact or not.) Assuming he felt any remorse for that deceit, he's certainly made an effort since then to serve the common good in ways he couldn't even do when in office. I don't know if Bush is attempting the same or not, but he'd have a LOT more atoning to do.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Red Flayer]

And to be *really* fair, you should know that the FBI is part of the Treasury department.

Cars made of hiundred dollar bills would actually fall under the joint jurisdiction of the Secret Service and the FBI, as the Secret Service handles currency-related crimes like defacement and counterfeiting. The Secret Service is the only law enforcement agency under the Executive Branch, btw.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Red Flayer]

What do you mean? Sony isn't an American company. People who couldn't access PSN might have actually instead contributed to local economies, instead of contributing to the bottom lines of multinationals.

I understand where your point originates, but Sony is a very bad example for your point.

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[RightSaidFred99]

I get that you think you're snarky and whatnot, that's all very well. The problem is these little turds are going after government systems and committing various crimes that could cost lives, in a few extreme cases.

Amazingly, they can still go after terrorists, though rape - not really FBI's purview but I get the joke. Which particular rich bastards who stole millions from which specific retirement funds, btw?

Re:Meanwhile, In America...

[Anonymous Coward]

And how has the worked out for you in the last 100 years?

Well, we got our Alcohol back, so IMHO... it's worked perfectly.

No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[cmholm]

Anonymous has been hacking into enough of the right kind of computers that it was a given they were going to get Federal attention. It takes a while to pull together a coordinated series of raids, so it's extremely unlikely the Sun (newspaper) exploit had any bearing on these arrests.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymous has been hacking into enough of the right kind of computers that it was a given they were going to get Federal attention. It takes a while to pull together a coordinated series of raids, so it's extremely unlikely the Sun (newspaper) exploit had any bearing on these arrests.

No doubt. Although I would bet money that they were just waiting and watching their suspects to attack Sun after being in the news and used the monitored ISP connections for each of them to confirm or signal that they had their guys with yet another charge against them, to start their arrests.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

I honestly think it was the defense contractor from last week that forced the FBI's hand. I think they probably have been slowly building a case, but wanted to make sure that the info gained from the defense contractor was not a security risk nor could lead to future security compromises.

I'm actually kind of surprised. I expected the FBI to wait LONGER and hit a HUGE part of the anonymous community. I figured they'd arrest anyone that had any hand in hacking or in command and control and then 'visit' every other person they could to scare them as well as putting up "we're watching you!" messages on all of anonymous's communication channels. They need to not only punish those responsible but make it clear to the part-time anarchists that this is not a game.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

That could lead to some ambiguious headlines. . . "Rupert Murdock assists in catching hackers!"

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[jonbryce]

In the UK, the police wait nearby and move in to conduct the raid while they are in the middle of the act, so they have evidence it was them, and not a trojan or an insecure wifi router that did it; so it is quite possible that thesun.co.uk exploit was the trigger for them to move in on their pre-planned raid.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sun is a British newspaper, and the FBI is an American law enforcement agency. People need to think out the implications of their conspiracy theories more.

If it were the Metro Police, they've got skin in the game, that's a plausible motive. The FBI, not so much.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL you think anonymous hackerz are american , 10 % maybe .

Check it out guys, it's got a 28.8bps modem!

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

People need to think out the implications of their conspiracy theories more.

Conspiracy theorists are very, very good at thinking.
If you look closely enough you can see the little wheels turning in their heads.

What conspiracy theorists are very, very bad at is thinking clearly.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[TheRaven64]

The Sun is a British newspaper, and the FBI is an American law enforcement agency.

There are two things wrong with that. The first is describing The Sun as a newspaper. While it is printed on paper, it's missing the other half of the prerequisites for that title. The second is claiming that it is British. It is owned by News Corp, which is incorporated in Delaware and has its head quarters in New York, both of which (last time I checked) are in the USA.

Re:No, Nothing To Do With The Sun

[dkf]

I honestly think it was the defense contractor from last week that forced the FBI's hand.

You underestimate just how slow a bureaucracy is. It was probably the senate hack that lit the fire under the FBI. Yes, that was a while back, but it was precisely the right sort of thing to do to ensure that the FBI would take a deep interest, even if just to keep Congress off their back. Don't underestimate the vindictiveness of stupid white male congresscritters that have been made to look foolish. (Well, more so than usual.)

Oops

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is knocking on my door?....hang on, I'll be there in a minute...
"FBI, freeze! You are under arrest..."

word!

[Presto Vivace]

did anyone NOT see this coming?

Re:word!

[Ruke]

I really don't think so. Love 'em, hate 'em, whatever, but no one was kidding themselves into thinking that the feds wouldn't be tracking Anonymous/LulzSec down.

Re:word!

[Anonymous Coward]

did anyone NOT see this coming?

The stupid little shits they busted?

I'm betting all those jokes about party vans don't seem so funny anymore.

Re:word!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think their jokes about the party vans are _hilarious_ right now.

I bet _they_ don't think they're so funny now though.

Re:word!

[interkin3tic]

I heard some tinfoil hat types suggesting that lulzsec was actually fascist law enforcement types providing cover for legislation giving them more power to combat "cyberterrorism". They might be temporarily surprised, though they'll quickly rationalize that law enforcement just needed some fall guys.

Re:word!

[McFortner]

Karma is a real bitch sometimes.

Re:word!

[gnick]

I think going tin foil and yelling "Black Flag!" is going overboard, but you can bet that the feds had (have) members at core levels. Probably a mix of traditional undercover and turn-coats taken in unannounced arrests. I'm sure the same can be said about most widespread underground groups that give the feds the heebie-jeebies. And, frankly, I don't really have a problem with that.

Re:word!

[NevarMore]

I heard some tinfoil hat types suggesting that lulzsec was actually fascist law enforcement types providing cover for legislation giving them more power to combat "cyberterrorism". They might be temporarily surprised, though they'll quickly rationalize that law enforcement just needed some fall guys.

Its not that far out there given recent events at the ATF and DoJ: http://news.google.com/news/search?&q=fast+furious+atf

Re:word!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking False Flag...

Re:word!

[blair1q]

But if the cyberterrorism is all coming from the police, giving them power to stop cyberterrorism will just stop the police from committing cyberterrorism.

Score one for abatement of the police state.

Re:word!

[Pope]

I heard some tinfoil hat types suggesting that lulzsec was actually fascist law enforcement types providing cover for legislation giving them more power to combat "cyberterrorism". They might be temporarily surprised, though they'll quickly rationalize that law enforcement just needed some fall guys.

Every Anon/LulzSec story on Ars Technica has had posts claiming there's a "false flag" operation at work, and this was the work of the FBI/NSA/your fave TLA. I seriously doubt it. But it's just the kind of water muddying that gets the consiparacy nutters going.

Re:word!

[interkin3tic]

Except that you can't bet on it. You can never disprove these conspiracy theories and they're rarely proven. What makes you so sure the feds are at the "core" levels? They're probably on 4chan, undoubtedly were following lulzsec on twitter (they had a twitter feed going, right?), and maybe listening in on IRC, and maybe that constitutes "the core," but whether they've turned any of the real brains behind it? No idea how likely that is.

Re:word!

[gnick]

Absolutely - D'oh. Oh well... I assure everyone that I wasn't trying to refer to the popular brand of insecticide...

Re:word!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, as soon as they were caught, they were no longer anonymous. In fact, as soon as they were detected, and identified by name, they were no longer anonymous. This is by definition.

Re:word!

[hairyfeet]

Actually I believe it was a member of the current administration that said along the lines of "never let a tragedy go to waste" which is why I believe the Anons will be used to ram through more draconian spying bullshit. Between the various gaming companies you are talking millions of voters that got emails that basically said "The Anons has your data, sorry" and many of those people and their families will be happy to support anything if they think it will keep those "cyber terrorists" (more like script kiddies) from getting their CC number.

As for TFA it just goes to prove script kiddies are never as hot shit as they think they are. They never should have went around bragging about their deeds, instead they should have just quietly dropped any dirt they found onto Wikileaks. If they would have done that after originally announcing their intent they could have sown the seeds of paranoia, made those in power wonder if they had been infiltrated by the Anons. Instead they went "I be teh haxxorz! LULZ!" while I'm sure they were leaving a trail a mile wide, script kiddie types rarely are as smart as they think they are.

So allow me to say so long Anonymous, you could have been a great source of knowledge like Wikileaks but your insatiable desire "for the lulz" ultimately doomed you to failure and PMITA prison.

Re:word!

[Is0m0rph]

Did you read some of the IRC logs from the lulzsec channels? They are obviously teenagers.

Re:word!

[SomePgmr]

I, for one, was concerned that Henry Rollins had joined Anon.

That's an angry concoction the gubbermint would have to take down.

Re:word!

[Mike Buddha]

did anyone NOT see this coming?

I can think of 12 people who didn't...

Re:word!

[cheekyjohnson]

I don't think so. With how much time and resources the government spends to "stop" copyright infringement, it doesn't surprise me that they'd waste even more on this. But I'm willing to bet that the only people they'll find is the idiots (in my opinion) that don't know how to hide their identities.

Re:word!

[RivenAleem]

Assuming these 12 are actually guilty. It would be deliciously sweet if these were 12 totally random people who have no involvement.

Re:word!

[Risen888]

Infiltrating "dangerous domestic terrorist" groups is what the FBI does. There are divisions of the FBI devoted entirely to that. This is someone's only job. It is entirely likely.

Re:word!

[uninformedLuddite]

I would be prepared to bet the spare 29c I have in my savings account that they only got those that were stupid enough to use LOIC. The people who urge the use of this tool would never personally use it. Whatever 'Anonymous' gets up to while their LOIC dupes attack is well hidden in the noise generated. I have no proof that 'Anonymous' is a government black op but I strongly suspect it.

Their Resistance...

[_0rm_]

It only makes their e-dicks harder.

Re:Their Resistance...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pity shame their e-dicks can be ten times as hard as e-admantium and they still won't stop real-world bullets.

Translation from Law Speak

[GameboyRMH]

Anonymous member = IRC server owner who may not have anything to do with Anonymous

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[rsmith-mac]

Some people may find this strange, but society generally doesn't like it if you harbor criminals. Hopefully the FBI has the brains to realize the IRC owners are not always the hackers, but that doesn't mean that the IRC owners are in the clear.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[medv4380]

The IRC server owners probably long ago put in the software taps to record the information for the FBI so they could execute today's raids.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be ridiculous - how can you hold "IRC owners" responsible for the traffic on their servers. That's like saying AT&T are responsible for every kidnapping that involved the ransom threat being delivered by telephone.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Anonymous Coward]

Whose criminals?

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Colde]

They should be in the clear legally, unless they participated. Otherwise every sleazy bar owner somewhere would be criminally liable if a big enough collection of criminals frequented the bar.

The laws against harboring criminals usually apply only to fugitives.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[TheRaven64]

If you own a shop with a notice board that you allow anyone to put notices on, and people use it to coordinate some illegal activity, would you expect to be arrested?

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Anonymous Coward]

Harboring criminals is bad, mmkay, but busting IRC server operators does nothing to stop the actual problem. Although the public does perceive it as helping unfortunately, because they're dumb.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Anonymous Coward]

Publicly available IRC server operators should qualify for safe harbor provisions just like ISPs.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't mean habib who sold them bubble gum at the corner store is clear either.

That bubble gum facilitated their legal transgression, burn the skiddies at the stake I say.

How about these companies hire real SysAdmins, at a pay rate commensurate to skill at preventing massive monetary losses.

Re:Translation from Law Speak

[jwhitener]

This will probably never be read, as its Thursday and the thread is from Tuesday, but.....

Some people may find this strange, but society generally doesn't like it if you harbor criminals. Hopefully the FBI has the brains to realize the IRC owners are not always the hackers, but that doesn't mean that the IRC owners are in the clear.

By that logic, shouldn't anyone hosting a means of communication be liable if criminal planning was done using that communication channel? How is hosting an IRC channel any different than Sprint/Verizon hosting text messaging?

Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure it has more to do with them hacking a military contractor and releasing thousands of military email accounts, probably with lots of personal info included. Yeah, it's all about some dumb tabloid. Forget the military, and top-secret information. Way to feed the conspiracy theorists.

One problem with TFA

[sl4shd0rk]

"..Fox News was reporting.." I would disregard that portion of the article pending a reliable source of information.

               

Re:One problem with TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

While I don't think this is a case of it, it would be WONDERFULLY lollious if lulzsec posted fake news about themselves getting arrested on newssites.

Re:One problem with TFA

[EasyTarget]

'reporting' is probably too strong a word here; they probably just heard it in a FBI agents voice mail.

Re:One problem with TFA

[gubers33]

Come on now, they don't hack into FBI agents or police officers' phones. They pay for the privileged information. They hack into the script kiddies phones.

Re:One problem with TFA

[julesh]

Smooth.

Re:One problem with TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Do it's likely completely made up? Why didn't TFS say so?

Re:One problem with TFA

[blair1q]

How about "Fox News was astroturfing their homepage to pretend nothing is happening in Britain today..."

Re:One problem with TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's HILARIOUS that these "news" organizations are now in a tizzy looking for "Louise Boat" because they see Lulzboat and say that this "Luiz" (who evidently spells it that way for some haX0R creds according to Faux Gnus) is a crimminal mastermindz.

you can't even TELL A FUCKING LOWERCASE L FROM AN i????

omg moar lulz pls Louise hahahahahahahahahahaha

**triple capcha bonus: rebels

Re:One problem with TFA

[RightSaidFred99]

An attack on Fox News. Daring. Bold. Original. I think the more classical approach would have been to work in "faux" somewhere in there, as it lends an air of sophistication to the attach. But I see the path you took - it's said but it's unsaid, it lets the reader snicker to himself and think "faux", allowing them to simmer in the self-congratulatory funk of thinking in French.

Bound to be controversial, but I like the cut of your jib!

Re:One problem with TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

and this isn't flamebait?

You probably get your marching orders from some vast left wing homosexual agenda.

new slogan

[MichaelKristopeit419]

we are legion^W arrested

Re:new slogan

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming from an ignorant hypocrite like you I would have expected "we are legion^W NOTHING"

FBI

[ThatsNotPudding]

21st century Pinkertons.

Re:FBI

[ScentCone]

FBI ... 21st century Pinkertons.

You've got it precisely backwards. It's Anonymous that fancies themselves the self-described law and who are deployed by interested parties to interfere with someone else's daily lives. It's angry lefties that egg Anonymous on to virtually lynch people with whom they disagree. Get it straight. The FBI are the historical marshals or the military, and Anonymous/Lulzsec are playing the role of self-appointed posse/executioners doing the bidding of their idealogical masters. They get paid in the currency they actually value: bragging rights within their own insular culture. Good as cash.

Re:FBI

[Anonymous Coward]

youre so sadly misinformed.
you dont need to be publicly put in front of a firing squad to be persecuted...
information is power.
the longer those in power conceal that they have access to any and all of your information AT WILL, the easier it is for them to maintain control.

#WINNING
#DUH

Re:FBI

[Anonymous Coward]

It's angry lefties that egg Anonymous on to virtually lynch people with whom they disagree.

Ooh, careful there, you're letting the face behind your propaganda show.

Re:FBI

[Archwyrm]

the longer those in power conceal that they have access to any and all of your information AT WILL, the easier it is for them to maintain control.

First off, it's not exactly concealed and secondly, I don't use Windows.

Punishment to fit the crime

[cgfsd]

I think their punishment should be they all have to convert to Scientology.

Re:Punishment to fit the crime

[dr. chuck bunsen]

The US supposedly does not allow cruel and unusual punishment.

Don't...

[Anonymous Coward]

...call me Shirley.

Re:Don't...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's a mod point when you need one? :P

OPERATION SUNDEVIL PART V - A New Beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

Yawn. I am glad I don't got to look over my shoulder for the Feds these days. Honestly, hacking was lot more fun in the early 90's. Now days they treat hackers like child molesters.

The was inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

These guys, they're not the sharpest tools in the shed. You don't target companies protected by the FBI (i.e. banks), brag about it, and get to walk away. FBI cyber crime investigators are serious dudes not to be trifled with. Anonymous attacks, to quote Craig Labovitz, are amateurish and simplistic. Was there ever really any other possible outcome?

You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[the_raptor]

Conspiracy theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show to the kooks they will just rationalise it away. Conspiracy theory derives from an inability to accept the chaotic nature of reality, that "random" events outside the control of any central power can utterly destroy someone's life. The belief in conspiracy theory is a belief that SOMETHING is actually in control: THE GOVERNMENT!

And if THE GOVERNMENT could just have its secrets revealed, or if it was destroyed, then all would be right with the world and peace and justice would reign.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[causality]

Conspiracy theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show to the kooks they will just rationalise it away. Conspiracy theory derives from an inability to accept the chaotic nature of reality, that "random" events outside the control of any central power can utterly destroy someone's life. The belief in conspiracy theory is a belief that SOMETHING is actually in control: THE GOVERNMENT!

And if THE GOVERNMENT could just have its secrets revealed, or if it was destroyed, then all would be right with the world and peace and justice would reign.

The problem with all of this, what fuels the conspiracy theories, is that false-flag operations really do happen. The various governments destroy their own credibility by engaging in such things.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[geoffrobinson]

And we know about false-flag operations because governments (at least the USA) is really bad at keeping secrets. Another major point against grand conspiracy theorists.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know people who wants some change dont know how to say what they want and its always more easy to put the problems on government, thats right conspiracy therorist need governement :P , but for the rest of us theres is a lot of better solution , dont waste your time bashing on people fear , but try to be more imaginative and take your energy to construct a better world .

Just maybe to set your brain level up. There is not just programming book :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[drooling-dog]

Conspiracy theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show to the kooks they will just rationalise it away

You might say the same thing about people who make the blanket assumption that governments, corporations, and other organizations are all completely open and transparent, only operating in the light of day, and completely without hidden agendas of any kind. But that seems at least as idiotic, doesn't it? Maybe even more so, since it requires nothing but blind trust and not the minimal considerations of motivation and plausible strategy that even the kookiest conspiracy theorist has to ponder.

Sure, there are kooky conspiracy theories advanced by the kookiest of kooky kooks. But history is littered with known false-flag-type operations, and it's foolish to assume that it never happens when the potential payoff is potentially so large (particularly when wars are being started).

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[TheRaven64]

Except that, if you're a proper conspiracy theorist, then you claim that the government leaks less important secrets so no one will look for the really important ones. Like the location of the research centre in Hawaii where the Bavarian Illumnati cloned Barack Obama (both the one that was assassinated in 2008, and the duplicate that replaced him to prevent destabilising the government).

If you let little things like plausibility and evidence get in your way, then you don't deserve conspiracy theories.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[snemarch]

Oh, that's just a false-flag operation to lull us all to sleep. And considering what has been leaked, boy golly they must be hiding some nasty secret!

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[pro151]

Let's ask Jesse Ventura.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with all of this, what fuels the conspiracy theories, is that false-flag operations really do happen. The various governments destroy their own credibility by engaging in such things.

See Propaganda techniques

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[dcollins]

"governments (at least the USA) is really bad at keeping secrets"

I would love to know how anyone (conspiracy theorist or non-conspiracy theorist) thinks they can evaluate this one way or another. I'd love to estimate the odds of government leaking a given secret, O=f/g (f the number of secrets leaked, g the number of secrets kept). We can reliably count f. But the idea that we can count g is self-contradictory.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The problem with all of this, what fuels the conspiracy theories, is that false-flag operations really do happen. The various governments destroy their own credibility by engaging in such things.

Yes, it isn't that these people are necessarily "kooks" its that confidence in otherwise legitimate sources of information is regularly undermined. The middle east is a perfect/terrible example - the place lives and breathes conspiracy theories because everyone knows you can't trust the government, or anyone authorised by the government, to speak truth rather than propaganda. So, without reliable sources of information, people are left basically making up their own version of events.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[dominious]

And if THE GOVERNMENT could just have its secrets revealed, or if it was destroyed, then all would be right with the world and peace and justice would reign.

Um...that would be quite suspicious... I'm sure conspiracy theorists would argue with this.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[guanxi]

Conspiracy theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show to the kooks they will just rationalise it away. Conspiracy theory derives from an inability to accept the chaotic nature of reality, that "random" events outside the control of any central power can utterly destroy someone's life. The belief in conspiracy theory is a belief that SOMETHING is actually in control: THE GOVERNMENT!

And if THE GOVERNMENT could just have its secrets revealed, or if it was destroyed, then all would be right with the world and peace and justice would reign.

In fairness, it's not just theory. There is ample evidence that News Corp conspired with Scotland Yard. It's not inconceivable that the FBI has a similar relationship with them, but there would need to be evidence.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[PopeRatzo]

Yes, it isn't that these people are necessarily "kooks" its that confidence in otherwise legitimate sources of information is regularly undermined.

I know, right?

How could anyone not have confidence in the news media corporation in the world? I mean, it's not like they're capable of doing anything wrong... They'd never do anything like those horrible Anonymous hackers who will actually break the law, right?

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Conspiracy theory derives from an inability to accept the chaotic nature of reality"

That statement is so ironic.

"NOVO ORDO SECLORUM"

You really have no idea do you? Whoever modded you up is just as retarded.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[walshy007]

Hemingway in his later days was generally considered a conspiracy theorist, believing the fbi was tracking and bugging him everywhere.

It took 70 years for it to be discovered he was actually right.

While I'm sure there are exponentially more false claims of conspiracy than legitimate ones, people who sound paranoid can be completely right sometimes. When governments can successfully keep it secret until enough generations have passed for all involved to be dead, it demonstrates the capability of easily destroying peoples lives and credibility (at the very least for the duration of their life).

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

lol you think it's actually reasonable to assume that News Corp told the FBI to catch LulzSec, and that 24 hours later the FBI followed orders? If that's so, you need a reality check, mate.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Wandering Idiot]

Congratulations on proving his point beautifully.
(Hint: Mottoes do not become really scary just because they're in Latin, except to stupid people)

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Red Flayer]

No. What is reasonable is that the FBI had the operation planned and ready to go, and were waiting for the green light from the top.

The green light from the top came when it was convenient to someone or some group.

It's classic distraction, and the FBI has used media distraction extensively during its entire existence. Bad press coming in on you or someone you like? Bust a notorious criminal.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

Ah RedFlayer. You really believe that arresting a few LulzSec patsies will draw attention away from the demise of the most hated media mogul since Hearst and Pulitzer? (not to mention the potential implosion of the British government)

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Red Flayer]

I didn't say they'd be successful.

But they'll try every arrow in their quiver in trying to salvage *something* from this ordeal.

Damage control... at the end, a couple years down the road, when there is some bargain being struck... if there is not enough public outrage, they'll be able to keep their broadcast licenses.

Regardless of what happens in the UK, they will still try to protect their US assets.

Furthermore, there may be US involvement that NOTW/the Feds want to keep from seeing the light of day, or at the very least, keep the level of outrage in the US far below what is being seen in the UK.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

Furthermore, there may be US involvement that NOTW/the Feds want to keep from seeing the light of day, or at the very least, keep the level of outrage in the US far below what is being seen in the UK.

I'd be really interested if you had substantive evidence of this. So far all I've heard is mindless conspiracy believers, but not much evidence that NewsCorp has anywhere near the influence in the US that it has in the UK.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Red Flayer]

I don't have substantive evidence of illicit activity, which is why I included the clause "there may be".

However, it's widely know that NOTW's US subsidiary has *craploads* of influence through legal channels via campaign contributions, PAC activity, and control of a media empire. It's just common sense to think that Fox News, for example, has ties to the US government, since it was effectively an administration mouthpiece under GWB. The question is whether or not there was provable illicit activity involved.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

Let's check: OpenSecrets.org.

Oooh, that's ironic, the top five recipients of News Corp money are all Democrats, including Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, and Harry Reid.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

But this is the whole point - it is not rational to take a handful of examples (which are only poorly understood at best) and from that generalize that *everything else* must also be the result of some conspiracy.

The initial post here was correct, that there are people who think that everything must be caused intentionally by someone else. So they look for any examples they can where that is the case and use that to rationalize a false belief that *everything* must be the result of intentional actions - and the fact that they cannot see those actions means it they are hidden.

Bottom line, I only *wish* my government were so competent as to be able to pull off the sorts of conspiracies that are attributed to them. I mean, honestly, this is the same government that when we are waging a war in the middle east members of congress start telling the press about upcoming battle plans. The president has an affair and cannot even manage to keep it secret. Do you really think that these jokers could pull off these sorts of conspiracies without the details being leaked everywhere? As I said, I only wish my government could be so capable...

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Red Flayer]

Oooh, you know what's even more ironic?

Your source, OpenSecrets.org, linked an article from Friday that analyzes Newscorp political spending in the US and comes to the opposite conclusion. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/15/how-rupert-murdoch-s-money-helps-him-makes-friends.html Newscorp spends far, far more in soft money than they do in campaign contributions.

So, not only am I having trouble identifying the purpose of your non sequitur, I'm also finding it pretty funny that your factoid is meaningless in the context of how much money Newscorp spends on political activities.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[lonecrow]

I witnessed the best bit of cynical news history yesterday and the anchor delivered it with a very straight face.

News anchor: More high ranking police and government officials resigned today due to allegations of corruption and payoffs from Murdoch Co. News anchor: In related news the reporter who blew the whistle on the phone hacking was found dead in his apartment today, police do not suspect foul play."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/18/rupert-murdoch-phone-hacking-scandal.html

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

It took 70 years [slashdot.org] for it to be discovered he was actually right.

Well it was closer to 50 years. That story is just a re-hash of an earlier report which I heard on NPR back around 2000.

It is important to note, however, that Hemingway really did suffer from Paranoia. The actions of the FBI just made it worse, and in all likliehood that pressure combined with his mental illness is what drove him to suicide in the end.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Xest]

Yes well I'm not really one for conspiracy theories myself but 3 weeks ago if you'd said Murdoch's empire had been spying on the phone of the Prime Minister of the UK and that he had a network of staffers and close ex-staffers with strong personal links to people running right through the upper echelons of the Metropolitan police then people would've called you a conspiracy nut too, the problem is, it turns out now that it was true.

So whilst some conspiracy theories are genuinely absurd, we must be careful to not blindly dismiss all of them and hence run the risk of missing the ones that really are true.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Xest]

Whilst I'm not agreeing with that theory per-se, I think the timing of Anonymous arrests have been very convenient. The problem is the people being arrested are almost certainly people who used LOIC without masking their IP at all.

I do think it's a little odd that each time a country has a big story relating to law enforcement the day before, the next day we get a story of "xx anonymous members arrested!"- last time it was SOCA, this time it's the whole NoW deal. Turkish police similarly did the same thing the day after they saw embarassing press.

I don't think it's unrealistic that law enforcement has kept a list of the IPs of LOIC users, and track down names relating to them, and is treating them like currency "Oh well, let's just spend 16 anonymous arrests to see if we can make us look a bit more competent after yesterdays bad press".

This coupled with some of the UK press most implicated in the whole situation- the Murdoch's papers like The Sun and The Times for example, but also other papers almost certainly guilty due to the IPCC report implicating them and the fact they've been so defensive of old Rupert like The Daily Mail that are now trying to shift the focus onto the European economy instead suggesting it's "more pressing". Well no actually, the potential downfall of our government, couple with years of police and political corruption isn't less pressing than whatever happens in Europe because it's precisely that type of ethos of things being swept under the carpet that led to the crisis.

I think you're right in that Rupert didn't just tell the FBI to go arrest them or any such thing, but I think it'd be naive to think the police haven't been using LOIC users as a bit of a PR tool when it suits, and certainly there are unquestionably forces, whether just the press, or the police and the press, or even some politicians, the police and the press trying to drawn the focus away from the whole situation right now.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[guanxi]

Let's check: OpenSecrets.org.

Oooh, that's ironic, the top five recipients of News Corp money are all Democrats, including Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, and Harry Reid.

Ha ha. Have you watched Fox News? Read the Wall Street Journal? Are you seriously suggesting that News Corp leans toward the Democrats because of your one little factoid?

You've learned rhetorical techniques well from them

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not because you're parandoid that they aren't out to get you !

--
Tinfoil hat ? Lead bunker is more like it !

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

A company that was attacked in an illegal manner contacted and worked with the police straight after that fact. I am astonished. Baffled. Completely bamboozled.

The rat bastards !

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[geoffrobinson]

I used to work in the defense industry. Trust me. It's really hard for a large organization to keep a secret.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

I rarely watch Fox News (what's the point?) but I read the Wall Street Journal frequently. My general opinion is that News Corp leans towards making money for themselves, which is why they donate to both parties. They don't fall into your small-minded division of 'left' and 'right' which you have learned by listening to too much propaganda. Wake up dude, and smell reality.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

lol it's a non-sequiter because I'm not trying to argue with you. I just thought it was a hilarious factoid. Clearly Newscorp donates a lot to both parties, because they don't fall into our petty categories of 'left' or 'right,' he knows it's more important to get what you want.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Risen888]

1. It's my experience that people who like to toss around phrases like "tinfoil hat" and "conspiracy theory" are hiding from something. "Conspiracy" is a synonym for "plan." If by "conspiracy theorist," you mean "someone who thinks powerful people plan," well, yeah. No shit. How did you think history happens?

2. There's no "conspiracy theory" required in this case. Infiltrating and undermining "anarchist groups" and "domestic terrorists" is what the FBI does. It's their job. In what way do you find this unlikely?

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[guanxi]

I rarely watch Fox News (what's the point?) but I read the Wall Street Journal frequently. My general opinion is that News Corp leans towards making money for themselves, which is why they donate to both parties.

You read the WSJ opinion pages and think News Corp is apolitical? Also, have you noticed which party's Presidential candidates work for Fox?

Calling me names and mocking me, again, pretty typical tactics for News Corp.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[phantomfive]

Oh no, calling people names is not a logical fallacy, it is abuse, and it is a technique from long before News Corp ever existed. It is especially common when it is apparent that the person you are talking to is extremely dumb, for example, you. Now, if I said, "you are dumb, therefore you are wrong," that would be a logical fallacy, ad hominem. But you are dumb AND wrong, which is completely different.

I also read DailyKos, so what? You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that what Fox News says matches what News Corp thinks (or Rupert Murdoch, given that corporations can't think). For that, I shall call you again, dumb. And it fits.

Re:You can't fight conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed which large corporation that owns NBC/MSNBC sits on the current presidents board of advisors (and in his inner circle)?
I'm sure, however, you have no problem with that what so ever.

hint, it's GE.

thumbs up to Fox News?

[uigrad_2000]

Sarcasm from the article summary:

Surely this has nothing at all to do with their recent infiltration of a certain company.

One of the reasons I've respected Anonymous is because not only do they do what everyone else cannot, but they get away without leaving tracks.

When HBGary claimed to have tracked them down and threatened to release their identities, they broke into HBGary, discovered that the information was faulty, and released it themselves.

So, no one can beat Anonymous at their own game, except for.... Fox News...? Well, grats guys! You now have my respect!

certainly you guys all realize by now...

[Anonymous Coward]

by having these 'profound' discussions on these boards, you are doing work for these government institutions correct.
youre educating them with your bragging.
just a thought...

Oh Nooooooz

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor FBI - still clueless after all these years.

Why is this modded Troll?

[znerk]

If not modded up for being on-topic and insightful, it should at least be left alone... s/he actually managed to use "they're" and "there" correctly.

And me without mod points...

[znerk]

This is the most insightful post I've seen all day... as the quote goes, "He who does not remember history is doomed to repeat it."

Office Space

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch yer cornholes boys.

You're not grasping the difference

[Lead Butthead]

That's like saying AT&T are responsible for every kidnapping that involved the ransom threat being delivered by telephone.

The distinction is that AT&T has army of lobbyists and lawyers to ensure they're not "held accountable," but the IRC server "owners" don't. Whether or not they should be is beside the point.

Curious Timing

[enrevanche]

The timing of this is interesting. Are they hoping to take away heat from poor old Rupert?

Really? Much less worried about this...

[kaizendojo]

and a lot more concerned about the former army head that's now the head of the intelligence secret police. If any other country made that kind of link, we'd be questioning their position on civil rights....

Arrest is not Conviction

[Oxford_Comma_Lover]

Are you kidding? This is PROOF that current laws are more than enough for law enforcement to track down and arrest hackers.

Whether they can convict them, and of what, is another question.

There are a few issues standing in the way, and some of them we *Want* to stand in the way (in certain cases), of law enforcement arresting crackers.

(1) There may be lots of multijurisdictional issues in any given case. Crimes may involve computers in many countries, and standard legal and investigative mechanisms available in the United States, as well as constitutional protections, may not be available in those countries. There needs to be good international law on this point, but it is tricky to work out because countries have different laws on what may or may not be legal in the way of online activities. European and North American Truth-in-advertising laws, for example, are very different. Some countries ban certain imports other countries may sell. Some countries are run by warlords. Some countries like free speech--is hacking a repressive regime to reveal human rights abuses something every country in the world would agree to criminalize? I would expect to see some interesting cases on the Constitutionality of international jurisdiction of computer crimes in the next fifty years or so, and some interesting treaties.

(2) Information illegally or unconstitutionally obtained, which our government has a lot of, cannot be used in court. (Whether it can be used to *impeach* someone's testimony in court is a more interesting question.)

(3) Encryption.

Basically, we don't want to make citizens of country A liable for breaking county B's laws, unless Country A has no laws for something everyone agrees is bad to do and Country B's laws aren't batshit crazy. But we do want to ensure some measure of corporate privacy (unless we give up on trade secrets entirely and switch to an entirely patent and copyright based system) and government privacy (there will be military secrets until there is no need for militaries, and for a while longer). But only some measure--because there are virtues to transparency, too.

It's not a simple problem.

Re:Arrest is not Conviction

[yuna49]

(1) There may be lots of multijurisdictional issues in any given case.

Yes, but I'm betting that's not true in this case. It wouldn't be hard to find a dozen US citizens whose computers were used, whether wittingly or unwittingly, to mount an attack against other computers also located in the US. (Mastercard and VISA come to mind right away, never mind government sites. I'm guessing the "retaliation" against payment processors over their refusal to send funds to Wikileaks is a central feature of this case. Suggesting these arrests have something to do with the Newscorp scandal is ludicrous.)

(2) Information illegally or unconstitutionally obtained, which our government has a lot of, cannot be used in court. (Whether it can be used to *impeach* someone's testimony in court is a more interesting question.)

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. There doesn't need to be any sort of data breach to run afoul of Federal law. Read 18 USC 1030 especially the list of offenses in section (a)(5)

[Whoever]
(A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
(B) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or
(C) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, causes damage and loss.

Attempting to interfere with a "protected computer, one used in interstate commerce, pretty clearly violates (C) and maybe (B) and (A) as well. Most everyone's computer these days is used for interstate commerce (ever buy a product from Amazon?) so both the source of the attack and targets like computers owned by the payment networks fall into the "protected" category to which the laws apply.

The penalties for these crimes include 5-20 years imprisonment.

(3) Encryption.

See above; doesn't seem relevant to me.

If you're suggesting that there's a problem making a case concerning a US computer being controlled by a non-US resident and staging an attack on another US computer, I don't agree at all. The FBI isn't going to care about the foreign national, at least not in the short term. I believe they will prosecute the owners of the American computers involved. Some of them may be unknowing pawns of foreign hackers, but others probably downloaded the appropriate software and made themselves complicit.

New jersey?

[tekrat]

Wait... wait.... There are hackers in New Jersey?
I think the Feds have the wrong people....

Very likely script kiddies bragging on IRC that they are Anon just to get 37Yt3 status. OSD round two, crack a few heads to make the real culprits decide to lay low for a while.

Seems to me that hackers need a lobbying group. Work within the system, I mean, it's totally corrupt anyhow, take advantage of that. Nobody on wall street ever got arrested for stealing trillions of dollars, and that's because they greased the right palms. Hackers seem to be *too* moral, which is why they get busted.

Re:New jersey?

[TheRaven64]

There are hackers in New Jersey?

I've been to New Jersey and, improbable as it seems, there are actually several computers there.

Re:New jersey?

[demonbug]

There are hackers in New Jersey?

I've been to New Jersey and, improbable as it seems, there are actually several computers there.

Duh. Did you think that a manual tanning bed could achieve that precise, even orange glow?

Re:New jersey?

[mywhitewolf]

Seems to me that hackers need a lobbying group. Work within the system, I mean, it's totally corrupt anyhow, take advantage of that. Nobody on wall street ever got arrested for stealing trillions of dollars, and that's because they greased the right palms. Hackers seem to be *too* moral, which is why they get busted.

hacking is virtually free. lobbying requires money and a lot of it.

Just GTFO

[unity100]

there is no way in hell that arrests et al can do anything to anonymous.

you arrest 100 people in usa. you arrest 100 people in france. you arrest 100 people in germany.

what about the millions in china, russia, india ? how are you going to 'arrest' or 'scare' them ? morons.

this is no more than a publicity stunt to satiate the bastard that is murdoch, since his ass is on the line now. and fbi and other government organizations in u.s. are making evident who they are serving. they didnt conduct a nationwide raid when all kinds of govt. organizations were attacked by anon.

Re:Just GTFO

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the Russians or Chinese actually playing "anonymous"? I thought they were generally trying to rip people off for money, or engage in otherwise profitable criminal activity. The "anonymous" group looked more like some kind off weird crossbreeding of hacker culture and American style hipsterism, built on a combination of irony and misplaced idealism that most non-Americans would consider a complete waste of time and not remotely amusing.

Re:Just GTFO

[Anonymous Coward]

wahhhh wahhhhh, don't play with fire dumbass. Stop making up chicken shit excuses. Reality must suck when youre not stuck behind a computer screen.

Re:Just GTFO

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not familiar with the demographics/composition of anonymous, but I somehow doubt there are that many members in China, Russia or India. Something tells me the overwhelming majority reside in the US/Western Europe, and it's only small cadres of hardcore skilled members supported by a legion of tagalong script kiddies and followers.

beat Anonymous at their own game

[unity100]

and how did fox news beat anonymous 'in its own game' ? huh ?

arrests of 12 pimpled kids through fbi (apparently serving corporations over government) ?

i see. the millions in china, japan, russia, who are hording back the anonymous' lines, and the core groups that oversee operations from russia, china, are very, very, very scared. they have been 'beaten' in their own game, by arrest of 12 pimpled kids in usa.

get real.

Re:beat Anonymous at their own game

[Anonymous Coward]

> millions in china, japan, russia, who are hording back the anonymous' lines, and the core groups that oversee operations from russia, china

> get real.

Your comment is made of or pertaining to iron.

Really, "millions of chinese hackers"?

It's just hundreds or even dozens of "pimpled kids" who've got nothing better to do. And now they are a dozen less and yes, lot of them are scared.

Get real.

Re:beat Anonymous at their own game

[unity100]

you need to work on reading comprehension. it doesnt say millions of chinese hackers there. it says millions of anonymous participants.

It's just hundreds or even dozens of "pimpled kids" who've got nothing better to do. And now they are a dozen less and yes, lot of them are scared.

ahahaa hahaha ahahah ahahaa hahaha ahahahahahaa hahaha ahahahahahaa hahaha ahahah hahaaaaaaaaaa !!!

youre a funny guy !!

Re:beat Anonymous at their own game

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, slashdot ate my >sarcasm< tag!

What, do you really believe there are "millions in china, japan, russia" (or even in USA) who've got no other things to do but going after random american corporations' sites?

Re:beat Anonymous at their own game

[unity100]

What, do you really believe there are "millions in china, japan, russia" (or even in USA) who've got no other things to do but going after random american corporations' sites?

had you any knowledge of the science that is statistics, you wouldnt need to ask me that question.

Re:beat Anonymous at their own game

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it you've got "statistical" data on millions chinojapaneses russian' in to DDoS/hack sites they've probably never even heard about?

That sure sounds plausible.

But, oh well, go on believing in OLOLO ANONIMOUSE LEJION just like those 12 who've got busted.

P.S.: I've accidentally &lt; and &gt; in last post. Silly me :(

Hello Otis

[m0s3m8n]

"I think we have some new bitches in town" - Otis

Re:Hello Otis

[cffrost]

"I think we have some new bitches in town" - Otis

Let me guess... Otis is an anthropomorphic elevator in a Detroit municipal parking garage?

Car analogy

[SnarfQuest]

We need a good car analogy for the slowest of us.

Let's say you find a nest of angry wasps in your tree, and you swat them with your car. What do you expect to happen?

How did those letter blocks go again: Axe, Bat, Car, Dagger, ...

Re:Car analogy

[mywhitewolf]

That's a terrible joke.. i laughed :(

oh please

[geekoid]

they have been planning since before the Murdoch scandal. The FBI has been very clear that they are going after.

You know what? we just got clear picture of an asteroid, clearly the FBI is going after anonymous to prevent the release of alien artifacts.

sheeesh people.

That's pretty cynical

[fredmosby]

The members of Anonymous are risking going to jail in order to reveal corruption in the government and corporations. You are saying these people are dumb for taking a risk to stand up for something they believe in. It's not dumb, it's courageous.

Re:That's pretty cynical

[RazzleFrog]

Is that what they are doing? Seems like a weird way of doing it. Not sure how hacking PlayStation network or Pron.com is revealing corruption, though.

Re:That's pretty cynical

[poity]

Funny how when Anon gets bruised they're sympathetically painted as hero underdogs looking out for the public, and when they triumph they're just in it for the lulz and whatever damage they caused for shits and giggles doesn't matter.

parents

[Hellswaters]

Guess 12 kids now need to call and have there parents get them lawyers.

misplaced courage

[Presto Vivace]

the response to corporate lawlessness is not citizen lawlessness.

Re:misplaced courage

[ooshna]

Does the Boston Tea Party ring a bell? Sometimes the only way to show you've had enough is to be lawless.

Re:misplaced courage

[Risen888]

Then what is it?

Everyone knows all the news agencies are CIA

[NunyerB]

Everyone in the world knows the reporters are all CIA. that is why the middle east always goes after the reporters. if someone like me can figure this out then the cat is out of the bag. that means all the people spying on peoples phones in the UK and possibly here in the USA are spies and most likely CIA.

A true hacker would frame someone else

[BlueCoder]

Just as a murderer would fake an alibi and frame another person. And you don't frame a complete idiot. If the person gets convicted and you have a conscience you simply vindicate them and they get a nice check from the government for being innocent and after the publicity of a hundred such cases the US government will stop embarrassing themselves publicly.

It's hard to explain to paperwork administrators the differences between correlation and causation and how hard it is to ID a person online or that you can actually frame a person. They are just looking for their witch to burn and refuse to listen. Unless you have video of a person typing what is appearing on their screen you simply can't be sure.

Political slant

[shuz]

CNN and the BBC feel this is such and unimportant story that it is hard to find on their websites. Fox decided that it was so important (and to them probably so exciting) that Jana Winter posted the story twice and it is in extra large, please read before anything else, font on the front page. It is amusing, if not a bit disturbing, that our leading available news outlets are so slanted as to what they feel is important. It is of my opinion that the Fox article also tries to paint a picture in addition to relaying facts where as the CNN story appears to just lay out known facts and to point out that authorities are not saying that this is in fact related to the group anonymous but rather an on going FBI investigation related to computer hacking. Fox does not report that authorities say this is related to Anonymous either Jana writes "suspected members of Anonymous, FoxNews.com reported". Yes they did report it! I am reading the article on Fox right now, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Oh you mean this is the second article you posted and that quote was linking back to the first article post. This must be extra important!

Small pickin's

[AEC216]

"In chess, the pawns go first." -- Magneto, Bad X-Men movie

weird crossbreeding of hacker culture

[unity100]

the identification you have made above crosses far beyond any nation's boundaries. it is something that has been there since the early days of hardware hacking in early 1970s, and, very curiously, it seems to have propagated to every country more or less in similar lines. maybe 'tech awareness' ? this seems to have migrated into the hack scene in early 80s, and it is safe to say that that culture had been the fundamental factor in defining how we do things on the web. in case you look around, you will see way too many 'free' concept. it is now a common acceptance that things are, and must be free as much as possible on the web, but, noone wonders where this culture of 'free' came from. it just cant happen only from economic opportunism - same kind of thing could have happened at start of tv era but it didnt. however, it happened at start of internet era.

yeah. probably random long haired or punk looking people somewhere in the world are behind anon's core. and i very much doubt that noone dare do anything to these people, even if they can. because they generally would :

a) either be in places where anglo-american corporations cant reach
b) would already in employ of criminal cartels, or, other 'secret' sources (includes secret services etc), therefore protected
c) it would be close to impossible to actually track and find these people, who are generally at the same level with the people who can any megacorp or govt. can hire in their field (security)

d) wherever they are, due to their technological skills, they are a national asset

so, in short, all these arrests of pimpled kids seems to be for appeasing certain interest groups because they are irritated by the attacks, and scare kids from supporting anon.

Re:You can't fight willfull blindness

[Anonymous Coward]

No-Conspiracies theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show them..

Like Murdoch's goons hacking dead girl's voicemails.
Like Reagan funneling drugs to pay for illegal coups.
Like TSA ex-goons profiting off possibly-dangerous backscatter machines.
Like the FCC enabling mega-mergers in 1996 and completely abandoning their jobs for ca$h.
Like Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld lying about Nigerian yellowcake.
Like the NSA's squatting on the major backbones...
Like the mutt-and-jeff of so-called Two Party Politics...

repeat ad infinitum. COLLUSION and CONSPIRACIES OF MIND/OUTLOOK are not tin-foil-hatting. They are general observations of human behaviour that have proved correct for thousands of years. Some people lie and cheat and steal. Some people, like Edison, rig displays to discredit, bankrupt and hound others with ideas contrary to their SEARCH FOR PROFIT.

If you can't understand this, you are mentally deficient. If you don't think financiers work together to make markets, you are ignorant. If you can't understand how money works, how it flows and follow it, you are not qualified to opine on anything to do with it.

FTFY

ps: all the above examples can be verified easily with a little research; after all, they were all in the newspapers for quite awhile.

Hopefully

[dzr0001]

.. they didn't find the official Anonymous membership roster. Oh wait.

old saw

[Anonymous Coward]

If you grab a tiger by the tail, best have a plan for its teeth.

Still up!

[JabberWokky]

sjgames.com seems to still be up, so the Feds seem to have at least improved their aim somewhat.

Re:You can't fight willfull blindness

[Anonymous Coward]

No-Conspiracies theorists are impossible to argue with. No matter what evidence you show them..

You're making an incorrect assumption.

There is a difference between a conspiracy, and Conspiracy Theory.
A conspiracy is a group of 3 or more individuals who are colluding to commit a crime.

On the other hand, Conspiracy Theory is a vague, paranoid belief that some type of hidden or "shadow" organization is exerting global influence and control over the world's governments and populations. Usually there are overtones of some kind of sinister purpose which nobody can ever really specify other than "global domination".

Examples include:
- The US government has a Weather Control device which can create any weather of any severity, anywhere in the world.
- The US government has a machine that can generate magnitude 8+ earthquakes on demand, at any point in the globe.
- Alien beings have contacted and/or infiltrated the governments of the world, who are now acting as meatpuppets. Nobody is sure what these hidden alien overlords are planning, but they're sure it's nefarious.
- All the wars currently going on are actually a coordinated plan by the UN and all governments to distract the world's population from their quest for world domination and mind control.
- The US government is putting mind control drugs into the water supply to pacify the population.
- The world's oil and other energy companies have an infinite energy generation device they got from Nikolai Tesla's notes. It works, but they refuse to let anybody know about it.
- The US government and the world's mega-corporations have a serum for immortality, which they are keeping to themselves in order to establish an elite class of super-human rulers.

Here's the ONE thing you HAVE to know about this..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. hang on... someone's at the door..

That must have been what the American

[Anonymous Coward]

Colonies thought, vs. your statement here:

"Let me tell you something as a former young idealist: it isn't real until it happens to you. You imagine that the purity of your principles makes you invincible until the establishment turns its gaze on you and actually does something." - by ElectricTurtle (1171201) on Tuesday July 19, @03:07PM (#36814802)

They (the U.S.A.) seems to have done PRETTY WELL, for a "bunch of young idealists"... especially vs. a monarchial establishment!

APK

P.S.=> I saw a LOT of folks speaking in "absolutes" on this page, but I can say ONLY 1 THING in "favor" of Anonymous, LulzSec, &/or even malware-in-general makers + hacker/cracker types:

They DO POINT OUT PROBLEMS - ones that need a correct & proper fixing...

(But, that's about ALL I have to say "good" about them... well, other than the fact they don't tend to "abuse" decent institutions, such as the NHS, whom they WARNED about their admin passwords being "out in the open" @ least!)

... apk