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Police To Begin iPhone Iris Scans

cultiv8 writes "Dozens of police departments nationwide are gearing up to use a tech company's already controversial iris- and facial-scanning device that slides over an iPhone and helps identify a person or track criminal suspects. The smartphone-based scanner, named Mobile Offender Recognition and Information System, or MORIS, is made by BI2 Technologies in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and can be deployed by officers out on the beat or back at the station. An iris scan, which detects unique patterns in a person's eyes, can reduce to seconds the time it takes to identify a suspect in custody. This technique also is significantly more accurate than results from other fingerprinting technology long in use by police, BI2 says. When attached to an iPhone, MORIS can photograph a person's face and run the image through software that hunts for a match in a BI2-managed database of U.S. criminal records. Each unit costs about $3,000."

197 comments

  1. And Lemme Guess... by The+O+Rly+Factor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Telling the cop that he's gonna need a warrant to use it on you will get you slapped with an obstruction of justice and resisting arrest charge, right? That's usually the crime given to those rouge renegades that dare try to use their rights.

    1. Re:And Lemme Guess... by tsotha · · Score: 2

      Why would you assume a warrant is necessary? There's no constitutional right to not be photographed.

    2. Re:And Lemme Guess... by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does a normal picture at a reasonable distance, even a distance as small as a foot, manage to get an accurate representation of one's iris? I don't think that even the highest quality cameras on the market are that good. The camera must be in one's face and the subject must not move, blink, or move one's eye (which could require some kind of restraining of the individual).

      Obtaining an iris scan is probably invasive enough to require a compelling reason to perform it, and my guess is that under most circumstances that means that one is either 1) already being arrested, or 2) being served a warrant for the collection of it.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:And Lemme Guess... by The+O+Rly+Factor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it seems like the equivalent of being booked, fingerprinted, and mugshot every time you get pulled over for a traffic violation. If you don't like the picture and the information on my ID, then go fuck yourself.

    4. Re:And Lemme Guess... by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a major difference between being "photographed" and "Citizen! Stand still, hold your eyelids open, let us photograph it, then wait while we find your identity!" Whether that major difference will be recognized by the courts is another matter.

      And, in case you think something not being in the constitution is a good reason why such a thing SHOULD not be in the constitution, realize it would have been pretty impressive were the founding fathers to predict cameras and iphones and put protections in against them.

    5. Re:And Lemme Guess... by CruelKnave · · Score: 1

      Maybe not, but if someone tries to photograph me, I'm allowed to turn my head away, no? There may be no right to not being photographed, but I sure as hell don't have to pose for a photo if I don't want to.

    6. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Yvan256 · · Score: 2

      Why do you assume those renegades are red?

    7. Re:And Lemme Guess... by I'm+not+really+here · · Score: 2

      Why do I suddenly have images of Minority Report in my mind... little spiders built with this technology in it, remotely controlled, identifying everyone in a building quickly... completely disregarding the rights of the people to be secure from unreasonable search...

      --
      Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
    8. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Neither is there a constitutional right to privacy. There are certain searches and seizures that require a warrant, and certain protections against self testimony etc, but nowhere am I aware of any constitutional right to not be photographed.

      You can argue about whether it is "police-state scary" or not, but to call it unconstitutional seems a little ridiculous.

    9. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      And, in case you think something not being in the constitution is a good reason why such a thing SHOULD not be in the constitution, realize it would have been pretty impressive were the founding fathers to predict cameras and iphones and put protections in against them.

      Whether or not something SHOULD be in the constitution is irrelevant when discussing whether or not something IS unconstitutional.

    10. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A ban against this absolutely SHOULD NOT be in the constitution. It would be ridiculous to try and imagine every single thing that could possibly be invented in the future to infringe on our rights. The constitution lays down rights such as "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures". ANYTHING that violates these rights is unconstitutional. I think the 4th amendment does a fine job here.

      Now, anything in "plain view" is obviously not protected by the 4th amendment. Seems to me that although your iris is in "plain view", specific details about it are not. Anything that requires a $3000 lens assembly attached to a sophisticated piece of electronic equipment cannot possibly be regarded as "in plain view" by any reasonable person. The problem is that lawyers and police officers are usually far from reasonable and generally have little, if any, common sense.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    11. Re:And Lemme Guess... by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Take a picture of someone, fine.

      Hold them down to scan their iris though? Gimme a break...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    12. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Duradin · · Score: 0

      I wonder if the same people screaming bloody murder about this are the same ones that gleefully pointed out that the Apple Store "artist" was perfectly in the right taking close up (secret) photos in public.

    13. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, of course, and I bet you said exactly the same thing over every other loss of liberty since 911. Nothing to worry about, no big deal, who cares, if you haven't done anything wrong, the massah is kind, and other slave talk.

    14. Re:And Lemme Guess... by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The constitution was not intended to be about citizens. It originally enumerated responsibilities of the government, and placed restrictions on the government.

      The Bill of Rights were amendments placed there to appease the fears of certain states who worried the federal government might get out of hand.

      These amendments are not some whitelist of rights that the founders generously allowed us little people, they are lines in the sand that indicate when the federal government is becoming the master instead of the servant.

      This "there is no constitutional right" thinking is bullshit. We The People have the right to do anything the hell we want that doesn't infringe on the rights of our brothers.

      What the government thinks our rights should be is [supposed to be] irrelevant - if we want their opinion, we should give it to them.

      But alas, we have collectively accepted a role as obedient subjects to a higher authority, and The Constitution has become just another brand of toilet paper.

    15. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would imagine if you are wearing color or theatrical contact lenses, both of which hide your iris either in full or in part, you would be asked to remove them--which could be considered a search. Especially when done by "officers out on the beat"...

    16. Re:And Lemme Guess... by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      If I'm wearing sunglasses my irises are not in plain sight. It's a well known fact that all criminals wear sunglasses even when it's dark. At least, the blues brothers did.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    17. Re:And Lemme Guess... by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      Amen! I agree 100%!

    18. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the same thing as has already been pointed out. You need not violate a person to take a photograph. You are not necessarily being intrusive either. And those of us who object don't necessarily agree with the courts. There should not be cameras used in policing or security without clear signs posted (at a minimum). Any other cameras should be limited to personal use only without permission. I'm not suggesting there should be a significant penalty for taking pictures of people without there permission. This is also a protected right where such photos are used non-commercially such as a news article or personal web page.

    19. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      currently the "Scan" is to match you to a database of known criminals. But in order to scan you well enough to put you into the database they have to line you up against a wall and have you hold your eye open, etc... So you'll know when they are doing that at least. Of course, in 5 years time they'll be able to pull this info from your drivers license photo... but we all knew this Orwellian shits been coming for a long time.

    20. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The abuses have to stack up until they are intolerable.

      It is my belief that real American's (ones that actually give a shit) are like shy sheepdogs and one day they will realize the wolves are circling about and attack with a viciousness not seen, well, not seen since the last revolution.

    21. Re:And Lemme Guess... by krotkruton · · Score: 1

      I don't see why it needs to be that complicated; close your eyes. If your eyes are closed and the officer asks you to open them, I don't see any reason why you have to comply.

    22. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget "the Tea Party has our best interests at heart."

      Oh, and "The Republicans want to cut our taxes even though we aren't millionaires."

    23. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Moryath · · Score: 0

      That didn't stop the US Supreme Court from ruling that police helicopters operating infared cameras scanning houses from above were not a "search."

      Of course, that ruling also involved Clarence "just bribe my wife" Thomas. So, maybe it'll one day be reversed by a saner court.

    24. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you. This is what needs to find its way up. Out-fucking-standing! LOUDER -- \a

    25. Re:And Lemme Guess... by slashqwerty · · Score: 5, Informative

      That didn't stop the US Supreme Court from ruling that police helicopters operating infared cameras scanning houses from above were not a "search."

      I think you are referring to Kyllo v United States which ruled exactly the opposite of what you have stated. The court concluded that using infrared cameras to scan homes for leaking heat is a search and thus requires a warrant under the fourth amendment. The basis for the court's opinion was very similar to the grandparent post.

      Of course, that ruling also involved Clarence "just bribe my wife" Thomas. So, maybe it'll one day be reversed by a saner court.

      The ruling did indeed involve Thomas who joined the majority opinion in a 5-4 decision. Quite frankly I would consider any court that reverses the ruling to be less sane.

    26. Re:And Lemme Guess... by ZosX · · Score: 1

      It is indeed a very slippery slope. Once you start sliding there is no stopping and boy have we slid far.

    27. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Dan667 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      9th Amendment protects any rights that are not covered in the Constitution.

    28. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Sooner+Boomer · · Score: 1

      Why would you assume a warrant is necessary? There's no constitutional right to not be photographed.

      Except that I've copyrighted my face and all derivative works. And patented my DNA and its derivative works.

      --
      Chaos maximizes locally around me.
    29. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try the 4th. Or, if you want, the caselaw around the 3rd.
      The 4th specifically mentions being secure from searches of one's person. This would be a detailed search of your eye. Police work is *supposed* to be hard work..otherwise it's a police state.

    30. Re:And Lemme Guess... by artor3 · · Score: 0

      Wow, look at the split in that case. The majority was Scalia, Thomas, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer. That would never happen in a similar case today. It's amazing how polarized the country has become in just a decade.

      If that case were decided today, it would likely turn out the way the GP thought it did. Remember, Thomas is the guy who ruled (in the minority, thankfully) that it's okay for a school to strip-search a girl for Ibuprofen.

    31. Re:And Lemme Guess... by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Now, anything in "plain view" is obviously not protected by the 4th amendment. Seems to me that although your iris is in "plain view", specific details about it are not. Anything that requires a $3000 lens assembly attached to a sophisticated piece of electronic equipment cannot possibly be regarded as "in plain view" by any reasonable person. The problem is that lawyers and police officers are usually far from reasonable and generally have little, if any, common sense.

      What if I had a really good dSLR with a really nice zoom lens? And you were walking around and I happened to click my shutter right when your face happened to be in frame? $3000 for a good lens isn't high-end (the ones you see at events that are massive can easily be in the 5 digits).

      If I can derive your iris pattern from my photo, is that "in plain view"? At worse, it's just a camera with a really nice lens assembly. It's just the camera app happens to also be able to recognize irises.

      Now, I will agree that stopping people to have photos taken of their irises is more of a questionable area. But casually taking photos, I'm not sure what to make of it.

    32. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhh, just sit tight and let the water slowly come to a boil around you.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

    33. Re:And Lemme Guess... by retchdog · · Score: 1

      it's not the same thing (mostly because the apple store trick has zero evidentiary value, whereas this tool has concerns of false positives), but it's worth saying that both are fine by me. actually, both are pretty nifty.

      all this does is check against criminal records more efficiently. apart from possible false positives, what's wrong with that?

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    34. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Moryath · · Score: 1

      No, the ruling was a fucking joke.

      The key wording is that the FLIR cameras were "not in general use by the public" and were therefore disallowed.

      Several appellate courts have now ruled that in their jurisdictions, the cameras are "widely available to the public" and therefore "in general use" and therefore no longer covered by the Kyllo ruling.

      Always gotta watch for the weasel words that bribed assholes like Thomas slip into the rulings. The devil's in the details...

    35. Re:And Lemme Guess... by iiiears · · Score: 1

      This thread and "Third Reich the Rise." on TV tonight.Then Rupert Murdock etc.
      Unsettling.

      --
      15TW = 15,000 Nuclear Reactors. (Approx. one accident a month.)
    36. Re:And Lemme Guess... by protektor · · Score: 3, Informative

      You might want to think again and look up all the lawsuits that celebrities have filed against paparazzi for using giant telephoto lens to take pictures through their house windows and all of that. The photographers are on public property but that still doesn't get them out of trouble most of the time. There is also the issue of you are not free to photograph just anyone for any reason you want. There are court rulings, thus laws against that as well. There is also the issue of recording people, and their expectation of privacy. There are loads of legal precedence to cover privacy. It isn't in the Constitution per-say but many will and have argued that "the pursuit of happiness" and right against "unreasonable search and seizure" are the foundations for expected privacy. Many people have argued quite successfully that those are directly things that show people have a right to be left alone, thus privacy. There is a lot of case law that backs up this idea as well. So while you think you may be right that there is no Constitutional right to privacy, I would bet that in fact most lawyers would say that is not the case and you are not looking at the intent of the founding fathers and what they wrote about before and while crafting the Constitution. Remember many of the states forced compromises on the federal government to sign the Constitution because they wanted the federal government to stay the hell out of the states business and let them run things rather than the federal government always telling them what they can and can't do. They also wanted the governments in general to stay the hell out of people's lives other than the absolute bare minimum that was required. Somehow this country has gotten so very far away from that idea. So clearly what you are saying is not correct in reality. You do have a legal expectation of privacy in the US.

    37. Re:And Lemme Guess... by protektor · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't understand what the US Constitution is and exactly what it is crafted to do. It is list of what the Federal government is allowed, along with a few examples of what they can not do. They set it up not to limit people but to severely limit the Federal government. If it isn't allowed in the Constitution for the Federal government to do it, then they can not do it period. The courts and the Supreme Court over the years have been allowed to get completely out of hand. They have been allowed to make Federal law when that is the job of the Legislative branch and not the Judicial branch. Judges have gotten completely out of control and think they can legislate from the bench when that was absolutely never intended and absolutely never allowed. Somehow the courts have over time given themselves far more rights an abilities than they were ever suppose to have. Just because something isn't in the Constitution does not mean we don't have that right. The founders said that all rights come from God or us or whatever, they absolutely do not come from the Government. The government doesn't give us rights or allow us to do things. It's only job is to say these things are not allowed because it tramples on the rights of others.

      If you do not understand this you might want to go back to your high school US Constitution class book, or talk with a law professor about the US Constitution. You should also read the federalist papers and other letters and such written at the time by the founding fathers and the architects of the US Constitution. This background as well as Congressional minutes will given you a clear picture of exactly what the founders were trying to do. You also might want to look at how England and other countries in Europe were run at the time and how the US was trying to do things differently from them.

    38. Re:And Lemme Guess... by protektor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People forget what the founding fathers said about rights. They said that all rights come from God or the people or a higher power or whatever. Right absolutely do not come from the government in any way shape or form. You have every right you were born with, unless that right is specifically taken away. I do not see any laws passed or things added to the US Constitution that says I have to give up my right to privacy. So until such a law is passed by the majority of the people, I will always have my right to privacy and it doesn't come from the government to allow me the right to privacy. You have to understand what the US Constitution actually is, what it is crafted to do, and what powers and rights it gives to the Federal government. It also helps if you read the federalist papers, the letters and such written around that time, and the Constitutional Congress minutes to get an idea of what they were trying to do. You might want to look at what was going on in Europe and how it was run to get an idea of how they were trying to do things differently.

    39. Re:And Lemme Guess... by goosesensor · · Score: 1

      Just a thought, but your entire post is based on a technical assumption.

    40. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if I close my eyes and refuse to open them they are now private. If I wear reflective eyewear, if I have contacts with color hue ... all of these scenarios could be performed and one could say forcing your eyes open was cruel and unnecessary. Removing your glasses theft of property etc, why are people not understanding. Your Iris might as well be your ssn once you are scanned.

    41. Re:And Lemme Guess... by protektor · · Score: 1

      You are 100% correct. The founding fathers point blank said all rights come from God or the people or a higher power or whatever but they absolutely do not come from the government. It is not the government that gives us rights, they believed we are born with them and they all believed that they came from our creator. The only thing the federal government is suppose to be able to do is make rules/laws about when someone's rights are trampled on by someone else. You are 100% correct that the 10 Amendments are just a sample list of what the federal government can not do. It is not and never was intended to be the final list of what is or is not allowed. The US Constitution was set up so that it enumerated the rights or what the federal government was allowed to do. If it wasn't listed then the federal government was not allowed to do it. How in the world it got flipped from if it isn't in the US Constitution then we the public can't do it, I will never know. I have no idea how people ever got that idea. Either they slept through the US Constitution class required for high school graduation in the US or they had an extremely crappy teacher who taught them completely wrong. Read the federalist papers, letters and such written at the time and read the Constitutional Congress minutes to see what they argued and debated about and what they were trying to do. Remember the US Constitution almost didn't get ratified because so many thought the federal government was going to get way too many powers. It took a lot of debating and arguing and changes to get it finally ratified. If they were freaked out how about much power the federal government might end up with, why in the world do people think the federal government has the power and right to invade our lives anytime they want for any reason. That is completely insane. The states wanted to limit the federal government as much as possible so that the federal government was not telling states what they could and couldn't do. There are a lot of safe guards that were put in place to protect the states from the federal government and severly limit how powerful the federal government could get and controls set in place to make sure one branch didn't just take over everything. Over time these protections and ideas have gotten completely shredded by the federal government as it has grabbed more and more power and gotten larger and larger than was ever intended or imagined by the founding fathers. The founding fathers also wanted the federal and state governments to stay they hell out of people's lives as much as possible. They only wanted to the government to be involved in people's lives as little as was possible. Some how that has gotten flipped to where the governments are allowed to tell us what we can and can't do in our private lives. The courts were never ever suppose to make any laws that was the responsibility of the legislative branch, but somehow over the years the courts have grabbed more and more power and judges have started making laws from the bench which should never ever have been allowed and was strictly forbidden. All the branches crossing over and ignoring all the checks and balances is exactly why the US government is so screwed up today and why it is 10000X larger than it ever should have been or was even suppose to be allowed by the founding fathers. If the founding fathers saw the state and federal governments today they would throw up in disgust and then start an armed rebellion in the streets to overthrow the state and federal governments. They would probably bitch slap most of us in the process as well for letting it get this far and this bad.

    42. Re:And Lemme Guess... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Name a few please.

      It seems like you just have a boner for thomas and think anything you can imagine that makes him look bad is true.

    43. Re:And Lemme Guess... by drolli · · Score: 1

      O boys. The people who measure cameras in megapixels and learned photographing using the iphone have overrun us. For sure there a cameras which can photograph the iris in sufficient quality, even from a foot away. Just a matter of the optics. As a matter of fact, many compact cameras nowadays have excellent macro properties. I think for the quite cheap one i bought the resolution is better than .1mm in macro mode. And i wouldn't know why taking a photo i the iris should be slower than any other photo, under the right lighting conditions.

    44. Re:And Lemme Guess... by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      all this does is check against criminal records more efficiently. apart from possible false positives, what's wrong with that?

      I'm going to have to get back to you. There must be something wrong as it's the government. Off the top of my head I have zip but let me think about it for a while. I am sure that I can come up with some really out there conspiratorial and ridiculous line of thought. I might even be able to squeeze in the word fascist or nazi too. Does it come in black or just shades of grey?

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    45. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A colonoscopy is a just a photograph too.
      Sometimes it's not a good idea to bend over so much for law enforcement (pun intended).

    46. Re:And Lemme Guess... by krizoitz · · Score: 1

      You may want to take some time to study your U.S. History yourself actually. The Constitution enumerates various powers and responsibilities of the various branches of government, it is not however an exhaustive list. The enumeration of powers was precisely why a number of the founding fathers believed that the Bill of Rights was necessary to provide protections for, and enumerate various essential rights of the citizens. The Constitution sans Bill of Rights, for example, would not guarantee freedom of religion or speech, these are not inherent in the body proper of the constitution.

      As for "legislating from the bench", usually that is code for "made a ruling I disagree with". Judges can and in fact MUST interpret laws and apply them, and if you think judges are sitting there coming up with meaning out of nowhere just because they feel like it its clear you have never spent anytime in the legal system. There is far more to the law than what the judge feels like, a legal opinion is built upon precedent from previous cases and the general body of law beyond just the constitution. Laws, much like the constitution are seldom exhaustive and complete, how could they possibly anticipate all possible combinations and confluences of events? So there is a cycle. Congress creates a law, the President enacts the law, the Courts interpret the law. If there is disagreement with the interpretation there are two (non exclusionary) paths to take. One is to appeal the case to a higher court, the other is to pass a law which addresses the disagreement and clarifies any disagreement. Ultimately its even possible to amend the constitution to provide a new basis from which a law can be built.

      The "Founders" were not some single monolithic entity with a single intent, there were a group of men of a variety of perspectives who argued, sometimes vehemently over the best approach to take, Federalists, Anti-Federlists, etc. They didn't HAVE one unified vision for the Constitution or the future of this country beyond broad strokes of well, not being British anymore. The Constitution + Bill of Rights was a compromise document incorporating the views of this diverse group. To act as if there was as single purpose and philosophy behind it is simply inaccurate.

    47. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no constitutional right to not be photographed.

      Sure there is! Unless you can point out to us where in the constitution that it grants the government the right to photograph you of course...

    48. Re:And Lemme Guess... by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      No it's not, it has to do wheter the idea goes against the intent of the constitution and not wheter it goes against it letter for letter so to speak.

    49. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Kijori · · Score: 1

      Is there really no constitutional protection against arbitrary surveillance in the US? In the EU the state photographing a particular person is unlawful without a good reason.

    50. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Kijori · · Score: 1

      Er, sorry - that should say "in Europe" not "in the EU" - the law comes from the European Convention on Human Rights so it's wider than the EU (or Europe, really).

    51. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tell this to the cops and DAs suing everyone for recording and photographing police and TSA.

    52. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      There is, in fact, a right to privacy. The 4th, 9th, and 10th amendments make that abundantly clear. So do many Supreme Court rulings, though the Roberts court has made great strides in reversing that.

      In addition, the Supreme Court has been fairly consistent in limiting technology used against individuals. In general, if it cannot be accomplished by a human without the technology, it requires a warrant to use against an individual. Someone can be identified via photograph or by visual recognition. The same cannot be said about the iris. An example of this reasoning would be Kyllo v. United States, 533 U.S. 27.

    53. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you assume a warrant is necessary? There's no constitutional right to not be photographed.

      We're not talking about being photographed.

      We're talking about being stopped and forced to pose for a photograph by the government, who have admitted they are NOT doing this for artistic purposes but are gathering biometric information in the form of a photograph.

      But to address your point specifically, I'll refer you to the following quote:

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons,

    54. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't really the use of this device in general. It's the specifics of when, where, and under what circumstances it's used.

      To determine identity of someone who is arrested upon probable cause is one thing. To detain people simply to use it, absent probable cause, is something entirely different. Given the way many officers view their work, it is in no way unreasonable to believe there are many who would see no problem using them someplace like a DUI checkpoint. It's no different from stopping and fingerprinting everyone at a given place even if there is no reason to believe they have committed a crime. I'm sure there are lots of people who think that's a great idea, but fortunately most courts don't agree that's acceptable. Yet, anyway.

    55. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, in actual practice, the 9th amendment means nothing. Since it is non-specific, the courts ignore it completely. That, and the 10th amendment.

      What should have been two of the most important amendments in the Constitution currently mean jack, since they were written to essentially say again that the Federal government has no authority over anything not specifically granted them. The Feds have goatsed the Commerce Clause out to cover absolutely everything, which limits the 9th and 10th amendments to covering absolutely nothing.

    56. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      There is, but it's ignored. That would be the 9th amendment, but it has been ignored for the majority of US history since it's completely open-ended.

    57. Re:And Lemme Guess... by zzyzyx · · Score: 1

      You seem to ignore the fact that technology is progressing at a really fast pace, and that what is not possible now will be possible very soon in the future. Laws tend to change much more slowly.
      Besides, I'd say scanning the iris of people in public places is already possible today, just use a standard camera with face detection to find out the position of people's eyes, and use another camera with a zoom to take the iris pictures.

    58. Re:And Lemme Guess... by AlecC · · Score: 1

      In which case the problem is not this gadget, it is the detaining. I am entirely with anybody wanting to protests unnecessary detention by the police, even for a second or so. But attack the underlying ill, not the technology.

      There is, I agree, a creeping tendency spreading from the airline industry to believe that anybody whose intentions are (or are claimed to be) to increase security has the power to be a nuisance in several ways in pursuit of that goal. They are wrong, and need to be reminded.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    59. Re:And Lemme Guess... by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      I agree with about 95% of what you say but you need to remember that the Constitution as originally written limited the rights of the Federal Government not the State or Local Governments. Granted this philosophy has changed and I believe that the 14th Amendment changed some things also.

      That being said many times it is the state and local governments that like to trample on our rights (for example many local Police Departments trying to ban taking pictures of them on the job, almost always state and local laws).

    60. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Jaysyn · · Score: 4, Informative

      The constitution limits what the government can do, not what you can't do. However, the US Supreme Court has declared that the "Right to Privacy" is inherent from the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 9th & 14th Amendments.

      http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/rightofprivacy.html

      http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    61. Re:And Lemme Guess... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      why? don't we have this awesome tech today? It will only get better in the future.

    62. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Always gotta watch for the weasel words that bribed assholes like Thomas slip into the rulings.

      There is one problem with this comment...Justice Thomas did NOT write the majority opinion, therefore, he didn't put any weasel words into it. Just because you are a racist who thinks that any black who is not a liberal must be corrupt, does not make Justice Thomas the source of evil.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    63. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      I think pretty much every lawyer would LOVE to take a case where police, with no warrant, court order, or probable cause, physically restrained someone. That would (IANAL, IMO, etc) seem to be a pretty clear violation of "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures".

      But im still not seeing how someone taking an iris scan of you unawares would violate that, or how it is substantially different than photographing you and then looking your pic up in a database. Possibly there are other relevant laws, but again this does NOT seem to violate the CONSTITUTION, which is what the discussion (constitutionality) is about.

    64. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Reading comprehension fail. My post was specifically addressing whether or not iris scanners were unconstitutional. Your reply indicated you read an endorsement into my post.

      I nowhere in any of my posts on this topic indicated whether I am for or against such scanners; I simply want to eliminate the bad arguments on the topic, much as I try to do in the Millimeter Wave Scanner discussions any time someone tries to claim that they cause cancer (they dont, theyre different than backscatter machines, etc).

      Possibly this puts me in the minority, but I dont come to discussion boards primarily to try to pound my ideas into someone elses head to bolster my ego. I come here to discuss, and to potentially learn, and when people throw non-sequiturs and factually wrong information about, it impedes that. My post was simply trying to rectify that.

    65. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I imagine it WOULD be a search at that point. My post was only addressing the specific scenario of someone doing a scan only, from a distance, not restraining you.

    66. Re:And Lemme Guess... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      By your logic, photographs are also detailed searches, once they hit a certain megapixel range. I do not believe that to be a correct interpretation of the constitution.

      If youre against it, fine, push for legislation, but dont read things into the constitution that arent there.

    67. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      The Constitution enumerates various powers and responsibilities of the various branches of government, it is not however an exhaustive list.

      It was intended to be. The Constitution was intended to be an exhaustive list of the powers of the Federal government. The Tenth Ammendment was written to emphasize this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Further, James Madison said this: "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." Other Founding Fathers made similar statements about the limits to the power of the Federal Government. On the other hand, the Bill of Rights was never intended to be an exhaustive list of the rights ofthe people
      When I searched for the above quote so that I would get it worded correctly, I came across another James Madison quote that I really like, “It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.”

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    68. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...you'd think Ben Franklin would have been on top of this.

    69. Re:And Lemme Guess... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      But in order to scan you well enough to put you into the database they have to line you up against a wall and have you hold your eye open, etc

      Or a little device on a building roof / policeman's helmet will quickly scan your irises before you even notice (like the devices in public areas in Minority Report). The policeman's helmet could even project an AR display over the world, showing the prior arrest records, warrants and suspect status of everyone who walks by. It would also turn all police officers, police vehicles (manned and unmanned) and public surveillance cameras into one big hive mind that can work together to locate anyone.

      Iris-obscuring implants might look good, but what would look worse on an iris scan than UNSCANNABLE?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    70. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because he or she has the mindset of the conventional leftist. I've been deeply involved with the Left (establishment and non-establishment), and deeply involved with the Right (establishment and non-establishment) and the most punished (legally and culturally) of these movements is BY FAR the non-establishment Right. The level of harrasment leaves you breathless. And nobody cares a shit because, you know, Hollywood has explained us how despicable, ignorant and cartoonish they are, you know.

    71. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bad Cop! NO Donut!

    72. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're going about it wrong. The Constitution restricts the government, not the people. There's no power granted to the government to photograph us, nor is there one permitting them to obtain such personal data at a stop.

    73. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possibly this puts me in the minority, but I dont come to discussion boards primarily to try to pound my ideas into someone elses head to bolster my ego. I come here to discuss, and to potentially learn...

      I'm here for the gang bang.

    74. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you are a racist who thinks that any black who is not a liberal must be corrupt, does not make Justice Thomas the source of evil.

      Yeah, cuz that's what he said. Stay classy Attila.

    75. Re:And Lemme Guess... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      There may be, but the problem is that the only way to actually stand up for your rights is to do it in court. A police officer has a badge and a club and a gun, good luck exercising anything with those guys. But to go to court you need a lawyer, hopefully a good one. That means money, maybe a lot of it. So you see, we can only defend our rights if we have money; just like everything else in this country.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    76. Re:And Lemme Guess... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      per-say

      per se.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    77. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if they have a camera that can see through the walls of your house from the street that's fine without a warrant too, right?

    78. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Rogue" seems to be, by far, the most often misspelled word on Slashdot. Which is particularly funny, since it's a word that's not used that often.

      Protip: if you want to look smart by using a not-so-commonly-used word, at least learn to spell it correctly, kthnxbai.

    79. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      >all this does is check against criminal records more efficiently. apart from possible false positives, what's wrong with that?

      exactly, false positives. I am OK with it being used to confirm identities. IE person claims to be Joe Smith, check against Joe Smith only, fine. But it is the guaranteed outcome of being search against a database without checks and balances, for no reason that scares me. IE I am scanned, and records get swapped with a bad guy, then scanned at airport and locked up for no other reason. Or crappy scanner at border check, grabs something wrong, now I must prove my innocence. Or like my neighbor, who's wife left him for a Border Patrol officer, and while going through custody, he somehow gets flagged. Any database without proper checks and balances (like the no fly list) shouldn't be use-able without a warrant. A database not requiring a warrant (good example would be the credit rating services) should have all data available to be validated by those in the database, and correctable without arrest.

    80. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't know for sure about this unit, but there are already units available that can accurately scan (with an error rate in the 1/billion or less) from several *meters* away. They also can happily scan through glasses, both clear and tinted, contacts, etc. And given the right lighting, say bright near infra-red provided by the unit, it could easily take a thousandth of a second of so to capture an image, heck it might just extract them from continuously captured video.

      At any rate, I doubt you have to make much effort to 'cooperate' for this to function.

    81. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hint: stop being dumb. It was a joke. The GGP misspelled "rogue" as "rouge" (which means "red"): a common mistake on Slashdot.

      Also, people who blindly polarize things into "left" and "right" are usually dumb as fuck, so I'm not surprised you didn't understand the joke.

    82. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Hungus · · Score: 1

      Obtaining an iris scan is probably invasive enough to require a compelling reason to perform it, and my guess is that under most circumstances that means that one is either 1) already being arrested, or 2) being served a warrant for the collection of it.

      Sorry but you would be incorrect.

      The Supreme Court has said that individuals do not possess an expectation of privacy in their personal characteristics (see United States v. Dionisio, 410 U.S. 1 [1973]). Thus, the police may require individuals to give handwriting and voice exemplars, as well as hair, blood, DNA, and fingerprint samples, without complying with the Fourth Amendment's requirements.

      Iris Scans fall into the same category.

      --
      Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
    83. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's easily defeated - just don't be red.

      or perhaps you meant rogue?

      Spelling: not just for grammar nazis.

    84. Re:And Lemme Guess... by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      This is how it is different than being booked, fingerprinted, and mugshot.
      1. The photograph does not go into a permanent record.
      2. You are not detained and required to spend time at a police station.
      The photos are taken for ID purposes. Once checked they become useless.

      The fact that fake ID exists makes accepting information from it on face value naive at best. It is much more difficult to fake a face than an ID.

    85. Re:And Lemme Guess... by wwphx · · Score: 1

      Why do I see an increase in sales for custom contact lenses like Marilyn Manson etc. wear? Can you be compelled to remove a contact lens for a photograph?

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    86. Re:And Lemme Guess... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      But in order to scan you well enough to put you into the database they have to line you up against a wall and have you hold your eye open, etc

      Or a little device on a building roof / policeman's helmet will quickly scan your irises before you even notice (like the devices in public areas in Minority Report). The policeman's helmet could even project an AR display over the world, showing the prior arrest records, warrants and suspect status of everyone who walks by. It would also turn all police officers, police vehicles (manned and unmanned) and public surveillance cameras into one big hive mind that can work together to locate anyone.

      Iris-obscuring implants might look good, but what would look worse on an iris scan than UNSCANNABLE?

      What about sunglasses?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    87. Re:And Lemme Guess... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Maybe they'll go the way of public photography...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    88. Re:And Lemme Guess... by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that summary is incorrect, as the police cannot require a person's blood without a warrant or consent. "No Refusal" DUI checkpoints get around this by having judges on hand to issue the search warrant.

    89. Re:And Lemme Guess... by Hungus · · Score: 1

      This is why I linked to the actual Supreme Court decision in Google Scholar (2nd link). The summary is in fact correct.

      --
      Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
  2. well now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I already burned off my prints... do I really need to have some glass eyes made?

    1. Re:well now... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Glass eyes won't help unless you change them all the time, or unless masses of people wear glass eyes with the same iris pattern.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  3. Eeh. In private hands? by TWX · · Score: 1

    As many problems as there are in government databases, they generally don't use the contents of the databases for marketing, and they're supposed to attempt to keep access to the data restricted to only those with legitimate reason. That could include law enforcement or legal officials, or the person who is the subject of the file, with the proper request. It's also easier (note, I didn't say easy) to get improper data corrected. Law enforcement, being a portion of the executive branch in whatever jurisdiction or level of government it's associated with, is subject to legislation and legal rulings that can force changes or compliance.

    Companies' purpose is profit. Right now that profit comes from the devices and the subscription to the data. Down the road, the company might see an opportunity for profit from mining the data in an anonymous fashion to the subjects of the data, or might find mining in an identifiable way, or might find that allowing third parties access to the data who otherwise shouldn't. Or, the data might be incorrect, outdated, or fraudulent, and government and law enforcement entities might end up creating more problems with bad arrests or worse based on flawed data from a private database. Additionally, a company might be harder to manage, even through legislation or court ruling, as there's a level of opacity through the corporate structure.

    Make the devices, fine. Sell them to law enforcement, fine. Retain the data "for the customer", not fine.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  4. Why iPhone? by drb226 · · Score: 2

    If this device already costs $3,000 I really don't see why they would specialize it to work with a $600 iPhone, of all things. Why not just give it its own screen and network connection?

    1. Re:Why iPhone? by mswhippingboy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Because Apple has a patent on the eye phone.

      --
      Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    2. Re:Why iPhone? by TWX · · Score: 1

      Because procurement and purchasing managers are suckers for marketing, just like everyone else.

      If a department issues smartphones to its officers then I could understand possibly integrating some other technology into the smartphone. If the department issues digital-trunking two-way radios, it would make a lot more sense to add a digital, non-voice component to the radio system to allow equipment to speak through the officer's radio to a central computer, then on to whatever remote database is in use. Come to think of it, since many such radio systems still have DTMF keypads on the radios, it wouldn't be that hard to also integrate into a telephone system so that officers could make work-related telephone calls through their radios without incurring cell-service charges. The radio handsets would need to be full-duplex capable, but that's not that hard to do. It would also be possible to set up officers' computers in their cars to use the same system.

      Yes, there'd be an expensive initial equipment purchase cost, but the lack of service charges might well balance in favor of such a system over the long run.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Why iPhone? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it was easier to write the software. There are hordes of people out there who know how to do interface and data programming on the iPhone, so the only expertise they'd have to develop is programming the custom hardware.

    4. Re:Why iPhone? by scuzzlebutt · · Score: 0

      Hah! I see what you did there! :)

      --
      In C++, your friends can see your privates.
    5. Re:Why iPhone? by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Just because an iPhone is only $600 doesn't mean another company could duplicate its functionality for $600 to include in their product.

      My question is the opposite - why is this a big bulky hardware add-on instead of simply using the camera already in the phone? I think somebody could approximate this functionality in a $2 app. (Perhaps it would require a close-up focus lens as well?) Hmm, it looks like it may have a fingerprint reader built-in, too. (Just like my Thinkpad!)

    6. Re:Why iPhone? by gary_7vn · · Score: 1

      Because then it would not be icool.

    7. Re:Why iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because this approach means that every cop gets a free iPhone.

      Surprisingly enough, the program is hugely popular with the police forces themselves.

    8. Re:Why iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look buddy, I don't know how it works where you're from but if we don't spend every last dime (and then some) of our budget, then next year it gets cut.

      If it takes buying the whole precinct iphones and doo-dads, that's great. It means we can spend the money on something we can use. If we can't, we're just gonna have to put spinning rims and kick-ass speakers in every squad car or something.

    9. Re:Why iPhone? by drb226 · · Score: 1
      At first I wondered that too. But given the enormous price tag, I'm guessing that it's probably using lasers or something more than just a lens to look at your eye.

      TFA says it performs an "iris scan". From Wikipedia:

      iris recognition uses camera technology, with subtle infrared illumination reducing specular reflection from the convex cornea, to create images of the detail-rich, intricate structures of the iris.

    10. Re:Why iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My question is the opposite - why is this a big bulky hardware add-on instead of simply using the camera already in the phone? I think somebody could approximate this functionality in a $2 app. (Perhaps it would require a close-up focus lens as well?) Hmm, it looks like it may have a fingerprint reader built-in, too. (Just like my Thinkpad!)

      Simply put you're wrong. I'm involved in the ongoing development and support of a machine vision system that reads pool water test strips via the iPhone.

      In order to get the accuracy as good as a random person looking at the test strip and comparing the color swatches we've had to include a card with a know background color, add an augmented reality overlay that the user must line up with the aforementioned background (the image will be rejected if the alignment isn't good enough), and mandate that it be used only under certain lighting conditions, and design new test strips to be easier to read. Even then some quirks in the pnone's camera API's can cause issues, and every time Apple updates the iOS it risks adding more quirks.

      So, if you could remove the iris, place it on a controlled background in a controlled lighting environment, and your phone operator is skilled enough to line up the image just right, you might get as accurate a result as asking a trained officer to "look into their eyes and tell me if it's the same person".

      The expensive scanner add-on, is likely a whole separate camera with good optics, and custom driver software to ensure that stupid things like auto orientation, and auto white balance aren't messing up the image. Once you get a decent picture it's easy to send the data to the phone for the processing, where you can leverage the phone's various wireless interfaces to connect to the database and run the compassion.

      Also by using an add-on to an existing phone they sidestep the cost of FCC certification which saves the company making the thing some money, and R&D time.

  5. Great. by Conrthomas · · Score: 1

    Time to re-read Apple's iPhone service agreement to make sure I'm not being tracked via iris scans.

  6. What a waste. by flimflammer · · Score: 2

    I don't understand why an iPhone is necessary here. Surely they could have included all the necessary components an iPhone would provide and it would even be cheaper. Sounds like unnecessary baggage tied in to look more trendy. Since when do police apartments need to look trendy?

    1. Re:What a waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue here, is the $3k part is a relatively low volume item. If iphone's were sold in such a low volume they might be $30,000 a piece since you have to recover the r&d.

    2. Re:What a waste. by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      You didn't catch the Slashdot story on the Army issuing iPhones to soldiers, did you? Everybody's enamored of the things.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    3. Re:What a waste. by tompaulco · · Score: 0

      So let me get this straight. I can't afford an iphone, but taxes are being taken from my meager paycheck in order to give them to police officers and soldiers?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    4. Re:What a waste. by VirginMary · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So let me get this straight. I can't afford an iphone, but taxes are being taken from my meager paycheck in order to give them to police officers and soldiers?

      You probably can't afford a tank or fighter plane either and taxes are taken from your paycheck in order to give them to soldiers. What's your point?

      --
      When 1person suffers from a delusion,it is called insanity.When many people suffer from a delusion,it is called religion
    5. Re:What a waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tanks and fighter planes are necessary for the defense of a country. iPhones, not so much.

    6. Re:What a waste. by alexo · · Score: 1

      Tanks and fighter planes are necessary for the defense of a country. iPhones, not so much.

      I am not very much up to date with American history so please remind me when was the last time tanks and fighter planes were used in the *defense* of *your* country.

    7. Re:What a waste. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I am not very much up to date with American history so please remind me when was the last time tanks and fighter planes were used in the *defense* of *your* country.

      Fighters: December 7, 1941.

      Plus the fighting in the vicinity of Wake Island shortly thereafter.

      Arguably, that could be extended to the fighting that followed immediately thereafter in the Philippines.

      Tanks. Couldn't say that they ever have. Course, we never bothered with them all that much till we had to bail Europe out of that little disagreement in the early '40's.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:What a waste. by Duradin · · Score: 1

      It's OK, high school history never makes it up to WW2. There was this Pear Harbor thing, and then the Aleutian Islands.

    9. Re:What a waste. by crispylinetta · · Score: 1

      Since when do police apartments need to look trendy?

      Since the police got addicted to watching "Divine Design" on HGTV, of course!

    10. Re:What a waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using an Apple product will make sure it gets mentioned repeatedly in blogs and possibly the evening news. They get lots of free advertising by tying their product to fruit.

    11. Re:What a waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's a definite given hardware that has a good processor, memory, is able to run apps that can be created by nearly everyone, and is supported by a single company who doesn't have a problem with supporting it.

      Any other questions?

    12. Re:What a waste. by black+soap · · Score: 1

      The tanks and fighter planes aren't being used to infringe on my rights here in the USA, (that I know of).

      Why does this need to be hooked up to an iPhone? I'll bet having it as an independent, single-purpose device would be cheaper. Also, it would be less subject to software updates from the Apple. Why do they need a device that can do iris scans AND facebook?

    13. Re:What a waste. by alexo · · Score: 1

      Fighters: December 7, 1941.

      So, roughly 70 years ago, just as I suspected.

      Tanks. Couldn't say that they ever have. Course, we never bothered with them all that much till we had to bail Europe out of that little disagreement in the early '40's.

      I was under the impression that the bulk of the work was done by the Soviets.

    14. Re:What a waste. by alexo · · Score: 1

      Which was my point: you did not have to defend your country with tanks and fighter planes since 70 years ago.

    15. Re:What a waste. by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Deterrence. You should look that up.

      A tank or fighter sitting idle in peace has succeeded in its primary purpose, one engaged in a conflict on its home ground has already failed.

    16. Re:What a waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you still seem to be missing the point GP was making. They're paying a premium to use an iPhone for such a limited purpose. There's tons of other hardware that would satisfy the same conditions which would be cheaper.

    17. Re:What a waste. by alexo · · Score: 1

      How many tanks do you need to deter a possible attacker?
      Come to think of it, who would that attacker be?

  7. Why the rush to identify the suspect? by joelsanda · · Score: 2

    An iris scan, which detects unique patterns in a person's eyes, can reduce to seconds the time it takes to identify a suspect in custody.

    Why is it so important to reduce the amount of time to seconds to identify a suspect? At this point, when you're taking a picture of a suspect's eye, the person is either freely cooperating or has been beaten down and is cuffed and forced to cooperate. And the cops already had a good idea of who they were after (at least in some, but admittedly not all) cases.

    Before this is seen as solving a problem I think we need to know how long it takes to identify a suspect now, and what happens in the time allegedly saved with the old system and new one?

    Finally, this will only work if you're already in the system, right? So it will only reduce time on those folks that have already been caught, had their picture taken, and are then caught again by a cop with this application in a jurisdiction where the cop can access the data?

    --
    The Luddites were ahead of their time.
    1. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      Finally, this will only work if you're already in the system, right? So it will only reduce time on those folks that have already been caught, had their picture taken, and are then caught again by a cop with this application in a jurisdiction where the cop can access the data?

      Ever take an eye exam while renewing your driver's license? Your iris scans may already be on file!

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    2. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by joelsanda · · Score: 1

      Ever take an eye exam while renewing your driver's license? Your iris scans may already be on file!

      That's just it - I can't remember ever having an exchange with a county, city, state or federal agency where I had a measurement like that taken. Height and weight? Self-reported by me for my driver's license and passport. Never divulged blood type, and hair and eye color were also self-reported. Even may race was. Too bad I didn't use my last passport renewal (done in person) to see what I could have gotten away with :-)

      That's not to say the tin-foil crowd won't claim my optometrist gave my eye exam details to a goon-in-a-suit, but that's not likely. I'm not claiming HIPPA will 'protect' any 'rights' I have in that regard, I just think it's a narrow population that will be in the system. Well, at least for now ... who knows what the next few years will bring ...

      --
      The Luddites were ahead of their time.
    3. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Why is it so important to reduce the amount of time to seconds to identify a suspect? At this point, when you're taking a picture of a suspect's eye, the person is either freely cooperating or has been beaten down and is cuffed and forced to cooperate.

      'Reducing the time to identify' is merely a byproduct. The next step will be to incorporate this into the routine DWI roadblocks.

      Years ago, a roadblock on the street to stop everyone would have been laughed at. Years from now, 'Look into the camera' will be commonplace. They might even say 'Please'.

    4. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by Dyinobal · · Score: 1

      Ya I was thinking the same thing, incorporating them into the road blocks. Now pick up at that can!

    5. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      So that I don't have to spend the night in jail because you raped your social worker and we have the same haircut.

    6. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      That's just it - I can't remember ever having an exchange with a county, city, state or federal agency where I had a measurement like that taken

      I am in Ohio and when you renew your driver's license they require you to take a rudimentary vision test. It takes a minute or two but it would be a perfect time to acquire this information if you happen to be a member of the tinfoil hat crowd.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    7. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine involved a mirror and a dusty 30 year old backlit sign. The photo was taken on a logitech webcam. Maybe they just want me to think they don't have an equipment budget.

    8. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      If this happens a lot to you then I would recommend getting a new haircut.

    9. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      DWI/DUI laws were the first place where many of the most egregious abuses by law enforcement started. The first time a blanket stop-and-search without probable cause was allowed was because of such laws.

    10. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

      Wow. You must be new to this world. Let me clue you in. This system costs MONEY. That's the stuff your bank keeps telling you you don't have enough of. When a police force says it needs new equipment like this it means they want more money. As a matter of fact when any government or private organization or company says that they need new technology to do something, it is just code for GIVE US MORE MONEY. The theory that the new doohickey will provide some service is just the carrot. So, we have a group (the police) who want a technology (iPhone scanner doohickey) that will provide a service (speed up identification). Money.

      --
      Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
    11. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by black+soap · · Score: 1

      If they can get the inconvenience short enough, the courts will probably rule that it is a "minor inconvenience" and is necessary to protect the peace or whatnot, whereas a longer inconvenience is more likely to be recognized as "detainment" and object to it. The faster they can make it, the more likely they are to get away with it.

    12. Re:Why the rush to identify the suspect? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Carrier Criminal Bob Smith who has dozens of warrants out for him is stopped because he ran a red light. He produces a fake drivers license under the name Frank Jones. The police run the license, it appears valid and Mr Smith goes free.

      Or
      Carrier Criminal Bob Smith who has dozens of warrants out for him is stopped because he ran a red light. He produces a fake drivers license under the name Frank Jones. The police take a facial picture/iris scan, run it and the ID through the system ad discover that Mr Smith is lying and arrest him.

      Currently the only bio metric available to identify someone is fingerprints. To check someone's fingerprints requires going to the station to have the fingerprints take. That takes time. There are portable fingerprint scanners but that seem to have the same issue as facial/iris scanners.

  8. Scanning suspects by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Remember, that as a *suspect* you can be scanned, cataloged and the records kept forever, even if its found that you have no part of the crime being investigated.

    Its not just criminals.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Scanning suspects by straponego · · Score: 1

      How long until they scrape Facebook photos to build their database? After all, anything that's detectable in public is fair game.

    2. Re:Scanning suspects by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Umm a few years ago...

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:Scanning suspects by straponego · · Score: 1

      I was going to say negative numbers are accepted. I also meant to say "iris database". Most current images probably do not have the resolution for that; but give it a year or two.

    4. Re:Scanning suspects by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Most current images probably do not have the resolution for that; but give it a year or two.

      My understanding is that while megapixel counts are still increasing those extra megapixels are generally wasted because the optics aren't up to capturing any more information and sensors with smaller pixels are also noisier.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    5. Re:Scanning suspects by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Considering the crazy-high resolutions cameras are reaching now, I wouldn't be surprised if current professional DSLRs could do the job. Optics have been the limiting factor for a few years now.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  9. Better not be doing it without consent. by dannymac63 · · Score: 2

    If a civilian did this to a police officer they'd be arrested for wiretapping.

    --
    Insert witty comment here.
    1. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The world is a very backward place where police are using wiretapping laws against citizens..

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain that if you used an electronic device to identify a police officer based on their facial appearance or iris scan, you wouldn't be accused of wiretapping. I won't claim that you won't be accused of *anything*, but certainly not wiretapping.

    3. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      Yes you will. Any picture taken of a police officer is now wiretapping.

    4. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since their names are usually pinned to their shirts, what are most likely to find yourself accused of is stupidity.

    5. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      If you where sampling the police officers iris then you would most probably be arrested for assault and not wiretapping ;)

    6. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Surely with that confidence you can point to a court ruling where photography (not video) was determined to be wiretapping.

    7. Re:Better not be doing it without consent. by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      It was sarcasm. The police will charge you with wiretapping, however.

  10. Whew by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    God bless Canada, where the government still has some respect for its citizens' privacy and it's country's laws.

    1. Re:Whew by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and it's country's laws.

      And, I hope, at least part of the population still ha's some re'spect for it's apostrophe's.

  11. Just bite the bullet and get some ID cards already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not only you'll enjoy better protection from identity theft (lol SSNs), but these silly schemes will become unnecessary.

  12. Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 3, Informative
    That's great, except for when it's not:
    From gizmodo:

    Technology may be a pivot for many of our lives, but it's not exactly infallible. A Massachusetts man learnt that the hard way, after his driver's license was flagged as a fake on the police system, due to a facial-recognition error.

    It seems John H. Gass looks rather similar to another Massachusetts driver, causing the system to revoke his license after figuring his must be the fake. Rather than head down to the DVLA to sort out the problem, he was instead banned from driving for two weeks, and only won it back after he managed to prove he was who he said he was. Worse yet, it's estimated another 1,000 drivers faced a similar problem last year.

    The facial recognition software that the state of Massachusetts uses is identical to the one 34 other states use, paving the way for many more opportunities of mistaken identity for the future.

    1. Re:Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by timeOday · · Score: 1

      This is not just facial recognition, but face, iris, and fingerprinting. I can't speak for this device in particular, but if inaccuracy is your only objection, get ready to embrace the technology, because multi-modal systems like this should be extremely accurate, soon if not already. (Even before portable DNA matching comes along, which it will).

    2. Re:Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not it will not. Portable DNA matching? You have been watching a little too much CSI my friend. It still takes a lab full of equipment, consumables and trained professionals to create a DNA profile and compare it to a sample or database. Even then, it's not nearly as accurate as you've been lied to believe. See, they don't actually sequence your DNA that would take too long, so they only do a profile. Which, while it might match a sample from the crime scene, it does not positively identify any one person. Only a class of people.

      For instance, if the sample from the crime scene came from a white male of non-jewish decent, then that sample profile will match something like 15% of all white males of non-jewish decent. Even more, it will match all the males in a particular blood line. (depending on sample).

    3. Re:Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by pipedwho · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod parent up.

      DNA testing is far more useful to prove exclusion with great confidence, because the 'match' size is only one to one. But - that does NOT mean we can extend this methodology to prove a positive match against a database with thousands of random entries. If a sample does not match the suspect, then it can generally be shown that the sample did NOT originate from the suspect - the inverse however, is not necessarily true.

      When samples do match to some degree, it can only be shown that there is some likelihood that a sample came from the suspect - a likelihood that is completely dependent on the search criteria and database size when matching the sample to a list of 'suspects'. The bigger the database, the less reliable the result.

      For example, if a there are three unrelated people in a room, and I take a sample from each one of them, then a lab could determine with extreme confidence which sample goes with which person. If I do the same with 10000 random people in the room, the probability of correctly identifying a given sample falls dramatically - in fact, it is likely that the sample will 'match' hundreds of people.

      As can be seen from the above examples, Gataca / [insert favourite TV crime show] style DNA matching is still far from realistic with current technology.

    4. Re:Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by DrKyle · · Score: 1

      Wow, and to think I wasted 8 years in grad school getting my PhD in genetics and didn't figure out the scam which is DNA testing. Thanks so much for being smarter than everyone else. If Alec Jeffreys was dead I'm sure he'd be rolling in his grave.

    5. Re:Facial Recognition Screws With the Wrong Man by dargaud · · Score: 1

      If a sample does not match the suspect, then it can generally be shown that the sample did NOT originate from the suspect

      It has recently be proven false in some cases, see human chimerism.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
  13. Re:Eeh. In private hands? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2

    As many problems as there are in government databases, they generally don't use the contents of the databases for marketing, and they're supposed to attempt to keep access to the data restricted to only those with legitimate reason. That could include law enforcement or legal officials, or the person who is the subject of the file, with the proper request.

    You can continue to think that.
    Florida made $62 million by selling Florida drivers' license information
    Drivers histories $40

  14. No, just bite the bullet and tattoo bar code by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

    Just drop all pretense and laser burn bar code onto everyone's forehead already.We're nothing but numbers to them anyhow.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  15. What happens by Dyinobal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What happens if I refuse to open my eyes for the required scan? Is it resisting arrest? can closing your eyes during an arrest be considered resisting? Will they mace me to get my eyes open? and won't that effect the scan?

    1. Re:What happens by Noodlenoggin · · Score: 0

      What did you do to require being iris scanned in the first place?
      If you're honestly innocent, then is it not in your best interest to work with the officers to prove that innocence rather than being all beligerent and generally making everyone days miserable.
      I seriously don't get people who piss and moan about this stuff, without taking into consideration all of the actual good that can come from it.

    2. Re:What happens by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      That was a fabulous typo. It corrected the misconception you seem to have about police.

    3. Re:What happens by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You pre-suppose that I did anything.

      If I am randomly stopped by a police officer who wishes to take an iris scan, this isn't about me being innocent and 'working with the police to prove my innocence' ... This completely violates the assumption that I am innocent in the first place. On what basis have you established that I might not be innocent? Because you don't like my hat?

      I seriously don't get people who think it is natural that I should subject myself to being arbitrarily catalogued and identified on the whim of some cop with a shiny gadget.

      There used to be a presumption that I was free to go about my business, until a police officer had probable cause. In your version of things, random stops and 'papers please' becomes the norm ... This is not what a free society does.

      What you are effectively saying is "think of the children" ... The mistaken belief that we should allwaive our rights so that the nebulous concept of "the greater good" can be served.

      Fuck that.

      Police don't get to walk up to me on the street and 'suggest' that I allow myself to be fingerprinted ... WTF is different about this just because it s fast and automated?

      If you don't get this, you are part of the problem.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:What happens by njahnke · · Score: 2

      they're going to mace you to get your eyes ... open?

    5. Re:What happens by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      If you don't get this, you are part of the problem.

      Unfortunately, this seems to be the majority of the population in one way or another. If you're singled out, obviously you must have done something wrong. No cop ever singles someone out for reasons other than cause based on actual evidence. A cop is never prone to personal bias, or retaliatory behavior.

    6. Re:What happens by Jorth · · Score: 2

      These kind of things can only go one way. If people are forced to submit to iris scans on whim, how long before they become common practice to be scanned on entering public buildings, then private companies would latch on to the idea for staff checking, time clocking (a great love of many industries) next thing you know you are tracked around the city.

      I know I am probably exagerating a little, but there's no good that can come from this. Living in the UK sometimes I dream that we had a beautiful document like the consitution that you have over in the USA, but it pains me to see a well crafted protector of the people being completely ignored on a daily basis. This TSA stuff, police filming, etc what the hell happened to the country where anyone could achieve anything through free enterprise. In the next couple of generations America is going to change a lot, and currently I don't see many good things in the pipeline. When I was a teen I used to think America was this super cool place I wanted to go to someday, now I don't want to fly there because I have a urostomy and I don't want to be felt up by some TSA agent etc. You've changed America and not in a cool fun way, in a scary as WTF is going on kinda way...

    7. Re:What happens by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Then they just use the facial recognition part.

  16. SCMODS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh no! They have SCMODS!

  17. Same rules as being Fingerprinted? by krelvin · · Score: 1

    I would think that the same rules in effect for getting fingerprinted should apply. I don't recall police running around finger printing people unless they have been named a suspect, charged, etc.. Normally part of the booking process.

    To allow an officer to scan you when he would not have normally been able to get you fingerprinted would be wrong.

  18. Re:Excuse me but the Blues Brothers were not cr... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Blues Brothers were NOT criminals, they were on a MISSION FROM GOD!

  19. City of Tampa tried it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The City of Tampa, Florida tried using "facial recognition" software in the Ybor City night club district several years ago. After about a 1 year trial period it was discarded as being too unreliable. I can see this being used until the wrong person is arrested and brings a huge law suit against the municipality and that will be the end of it. Not to mention religions such as the Amish who do not want their pictures taken.

  20. Obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No way this will be abused.

  21. MORIS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In a stroke of engineering tour de force, law enforcement now has the tool necessary to disseminate in real time, the racial description of any suspect. Whilst in the past, society was burdened with vague generic description such as 5'10", average build, now descriptions will be in the form of 5'10", average build, NEGRO, for example.

  22. Why iphone? by tompaulco · · Score: 2

    Why not just make the device USB based so they can scan it into their existing mobile and office hardware. Then they can save $600 AND $100 a month in data plan charges.
    No, that's still going to be too expensive relative to the additional safety provided to citizens. Just scrap the whole idea.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  23. Good luck... by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

    Good luck if it's an iPhone 3GS that constantly shuts down when running anything more intensive than email.

  24. Why do these things cost $3k apiece? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it gold plated?
    I wish it would be illegal for governments to spend money wastefully!

  25. Re:Excuse me but the Blues Brothers were not cr... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So was Jesus and didn't the Romans execute him as a criminal? :D

  26. Re:Eeh. In private hands? by protektor · · Score: 1

    You have been sadly deceived. The states have sold their databases to the highest bidders on many many occasions. You should also look at the Fusion Centers that are not government groups/divisions but rather private companies that are supported with grants from the federal government and full database access to all the government criminal and regular databases. They have full access to law enforcement and routinely send out information to law enforcement as to what they should be doing and the types of people they should be watching and monitoring. This isn't a government agency. They are private corporations and there are generally at least 2 of these Fusion Centers in every state.

    You then throw in how every single administration has been cause pulling FBI files and such of their political opponents. You quickly see that every government database is for sale and abused on a regular basis. Police constantly do look-ups on neighbors and people they are dating or people dating their friends or family members. Police abuse their database access all the time and rarely are punished for it, and almost never publicly.

    The government clearly can not be trusted with databases of people. They constantly abuse them. They put bad information in them, like the horribly inaccurate no fly list, and getting data corrected is impossible just ask several Congress members. The list just goes on and on. We do not need to be letting any level of government (state or federal) to have any more databases to abuse. Too bad if their job is hard and it would be easier if they had these. My life would be easier if I could just kill everyone who annoyed me as well, and take money anytime I wanted from banks with no legal problems. Neither are going to happen and the government and law enforcement just need to work harder, and too bad if their job is hard, they can always quit.

  27. UK does mobile fingerprint already by martin · · Score: 2

    One small step ahead of the kit readily available the UK police for a while now.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8549875.stm

    Of course we've got decent Data Protection Legislation and one dat we'll get a DPC with teeth to enforce them !

  28. What it IS useful for by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    is building up a vast database of DNA profiles, ready to duplicate and add to crime scenes or evidence. No more stone-cold whodunnits and my, our political enemies sure are starting to commit a lot of crimes, aren't they? And given that juries are as dumb as a bag of hammers on the subject (DNA match = guilt)...

  29. Re:Excuse me but the Blues Brothers were not cr... by hamvil · · Score: 1

    Not really. Jesus was put up before the Romans by the Pharisees, a Jewish sect. The Romans were the power at that time and place. They ruled the secular society. If someone were to be punished for religious crimes then that religious group would mete out the punishment. But the Pharisees wanted Jesus' followers to know that they were in charge of Judaism. They basically presented Jesus to the Romans with charges of being an anarchist/anti-Roman, rabble rouser type. Governor Pontius Pilate examined Jesus and found him not guilty of organizing against the Romans and "washed his hand of this matter". The Pharisees then wanted him put to death and the Romans executed him.

  30. Suckers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Land of the free home of the brave HA HA

  31. Iris image distortion contact lenses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anybody know of a web site I can buy contact lenses that would hide/modify an iris pattern without affecting the wearer's vision?

    Maybe I ought to get a patent on that......

    It would be funny, if it weren't so sad....

    It's okay to pin someone to the ground and scan their eyeballs from a foot away, but it's illegal to videotape police from the safety of one's own property?

    To any rational thinking person, iris scanning while being restrained would be a 4th amendment violation if done without a warrant or probable cause.

  32. First thing I thought of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Elwood: I bet these cops got SCMODS.
    Jake: SCMODS?
    Elwood: State County Municipal Offender Data System.

  33. Anonymity vs. Privacy by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

    Iris scan works at 6 inches and requires corporation.
    Face scan works at 6 feet and does not require corporation.
    They are being treated differently.

    The Chief of Police in Boston [I think - WSJ had an article on this last week] said that he was instructing his police officers to use the face scan whenever. That is was just like taking a picture or other observation techniques that the police use. I think this has been tested in court. Iris scans were only to be administered when there was probably cause. I think on the street Iris scans have not been tested.

    And as anybody who has grown up in a small town knows, there is a difference between anonymity vs. privacy.

  34. iPhone way too fragile for police by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

    The iPhone is way too fragile for police work. They will end up broken the first day out in the field! Just look at how easily they are broken by civilians in regular life, now imagine what they'd be subjected to just by being carried by the average police officer on the job.

    --
    Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  35. Re:Excuse me but the Blues Brothers were not cr... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh yea, like the Pharisees forced the poor Romans to kill Jesus.

    Face it, the Romans (Italians, of course) were the occupying power and had the last word. The Italians, and nobody else, killed Jesus and it's time this fact was shouted from the rooftops.

  36. Fair is Fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NO, you can not photograph my iris or my face, as long as police are arresting people for photographing THEM doing their job. "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you shouldn't care!" cuts both ways.

  37. Missing information. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    The Moris device uses three technologies to identify people; facial recognition, iris recognition and fingerprint recognition.

    To me it is equivalent to an officer asking for my ID. Police do not have the time to wander around randomly snapping pictures of people and checking to see who they are. If a police officer has cause to ask for my ID they have cause to verify it using Moris.

    The iris scan does not require someone to hold their eye open for a period of time; the picture is taken just like any other iPhone picture. It is the same as getting a DMV photo taken; stand there, don's blink till I say.