Slashdot Mirror
UK To Shut Down Social Networks?
Stoobalou writes "In a move worthy of China's communist regime, UK PM David Cameron wants to shut down social networks whenever civil unrest rears its head in Britain's towns and cities. Speaking in the House of Commons, Cameron said, 'Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck by how they were, organized via social media. Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.'" So far I haven't heard anyone blame the Rock 'n Roll music, but if social networks aren't a good enough culprit, you could also try blaming video games.
Worthy of China? Sure, but Egypt was the first time that came to mind while watching this disgraceful session live... that didn't work too well BTW.
Grammar nazis are to this community what excrements are to gold.
Bad news for the "Lootbook" IPO!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
In Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria...
Shutting down communications strikes me as one of the most stupid things you could do in an emergency situation. If someone wants to call for help or check on friends and relatives or even just try to find out what's happening then the last thing they need is the obstacle of having to figure out which communications channels aren't banned.
Why not just leave them turned on and arrest all the morons who are stupid enough to organize crime on a public website that is well known to co-operate with the police. I can't imagine what better evidence of intent there is then:
" 'Ello Mate, let's go bust up a Tesco, g'day, Tally-HO!"
(that's what english people sound like I think we all know)
Ze Atomic Device! It iz Ztolen!
As soon as people started muting shutting down Blackberry Messenger, I had a bad feeling that this bullshit would follow.
The politicos don't understand the role that social media and internet communications play in people's lives. They wouldn't suggest shutting down the POTS network, or the postal service. Well, actually, that's giving them too much credit. They'd probably suggest exactly that.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Pretty stupid to cut off communications as they can also be used for good. What about social media used to say stay away from this place. Or as an early warning system.
www.moonnext.com
Shut down the internet. Because shutting down the internet worked so well in Egypt...
It's gonna be happening here, too. We'd better start coming up with alternative ways to communicate, because I have no doubt in my mind that they'll be yanking our network down when the shit hits the fan on our shores...
The riots are only in England, Cameron can leave the rest of us alone.
You can see why the Founding Fathers included it in the Bill of Rights.
Good ol' USA where we can tell everyone of our elected officals a what cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit they are! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
Which social services would they shut down? If they shut down access to Facebook, people would use another service. If the UK desires to shut down all communication channels, then go hunting for pirate radio or wi-fi stations, good luck. It can be done, but it would be a large expense... and really tick off everyone, including businesses who lose sales due to communication blackouts.
Mr Cameron, the problem starts with the fact that those criminals can READ and WRITE. This is a risk we can no longer allow!
Please, for the sake of our lives, CLOSE ALL SCHOOLS IMMEDIATELY before they can release EVEN MORE CRIMINALS upon us!
...riots NEVER happened before the invention of social networking.
And you know, cutting off the ENTIRE INTERNET for Egypt totally stopped the riots there too.
I swear, is there some rule saying you have to be technologically retarded to get into politics?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
The link to blaming video games is a link to the previous slashdot article..
I was only 28,931 registrations away from having a 6-digit UID
What on gods earth?
I was watching the debate live, and the feel of the speech was really not like this at all. Throughout twitter and facebook were praised, especially things like the london clean up efforts organized through twitter. In fact it was somewhat reassuring to see that they sort of knew what they were talking about. The measures talked about were primarily disabling masts in rioting areas so that communications would be ceased, nowhere near 'banning' social networks. Honestly, the feel of the speech was aimed towards leveraging them for good. It was said that they would be talking to them directly to see if together they could tackle issues, such as images/videos glorifying the acts.
...and route around it accordingly. If our PM were being slightly smarter than all the previous ones since the war, he'd attempt to identify and treat the causes of the unrest, rather than try to stop the channel through which it's operating. You know, fix the huge social imbalance that years of neglect have wrought on our society? No - that would take too long to have the kind of effect that he needs to keep him in power.
... just putting enough police/army on the streets and nicking the little bastards in the act?
Fascist regimes always point their fingers elsewhere. Fortunately, that leaves 3 fingers pointing back at themselves.
It's better to just use short range jamming on those freq's than to censor an entire network. Besides, it's not like the Brit's have a 4th amendment. It's just as easy to monitor certain accounts in real time, or nearly so.
A better question to ask might be, why their current, much vaunted CCTV surveillance isn't doing a better job of nabbing those hooilgans earlier in the process?
we are working... to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services
Article title:
Cameron threatens to shut down UK social networks
After all, phones can be used to organize opposition! So can copiers, and printers. Also cars and busses take people to protests, those must be stopped! In fact any item of technology ever invented can be used to oppose those in power, so we need a universal device that can kill all technology so the people in power will feel less threatened! Everyone can just sit on their hands until the threat passes.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-08/11/david-cameron-social-media "Prime Minister David Cameron has told parliament that he is investigating whether to stop people communicating via social networking sites ****if they are known to be planning criminal activity****."
first of all i would like to applaud westerner's hypocrisy - while promoting social media outlets for people on the east, they are strongly opposing them at home.
secondly i'd like to note that all those people using social media to organize looting and whatever not through unrest in the UK - police needs no face recognition, while they have CDRs and other logs from telecoms. all they need is to see who posted to twitter at a given time, and what IMEIs and phones were registered to gsm cells in the looted neighborhood.
surely, forensics behind this are wee bit more complicated, but all in all - if i was member of the crowd doing malicious deed - i would never use my own phone and gsm card to organize / coordinate something against the state. perhaps pre-paid card with disposable/old phone, but never my own smartphone with my own postpaid number.
.Play.Open.Minded.
What the fuck has happened to all the western governments and what do they think they'll be able to achieve with increasingly draconian police state style laws? It boggles the mind. What will the puppet masters do once they've finished stringing up the puppets. It's not as if they don't have all the power they need to do all sorts of nasty things as it is. Why do they keep pushing for more? It makes no sense. It'd be like Bill Gates with all his billions scheming to mug people on the way home from work to increase his wealth. Meanwhile they let the economy fail and public infrastructure, education and health crumble.Gated communities aren't much good to you if there's no one left to buy things from. Idiots.
And the goddamn tech-bashing? What the fuck? On the one hand money frittered away on Internet services no one needs (see Australia for a prime example) and on the other lock down the net with fucked up filters that make it useless and stifle the very freedoms that have made it a success. What have these people been smoking?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Since some of these social networks are trying to hide behind freedom of expression and the like (which I am not sure how similar Britain's laws are) it does not protect them from private parties.
While I am not a fan of the government trying to shut down some of these services, I do expect these services to have a process in place to shut down users who they are informed about using their sites for organizing willful destruction of other people's property, let alone their lives.
Freedom does not excuse one from responsibility and freedoms are great until you trample someone else in the process.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Sod video games, I've got the whole lot here in one handy wheel.
Simply give it a spin and there's your culprit.
Summation 2
News articles on Yahoo the last two days claim that some rioters were being beaten by cops, but today claims that rioters attempted to fire bomb a children's hospital which was coordinated via social networking site is enough justification enough to string the lot up by the neck!
This is the sort of rot "the man" is trying to stop, not organised and civilised protest, but frack knuckles willing to do harm to innocent bystanders.
That will surely pacify all those disaffected youth. They hate the internet, and hardly use it on a day to day basis.
You would be opening a can of worms by doing this. Rioting has happened many of times before social networks. Did they aid in the organization of the event, yes, were the people rioting the ones who started the event, no. Their event was a peaceful protest and people took advantage of them being organized. The police caused this by killing an unarmed man and planting a gun. Maybe Cameron should think about investigating the police force and people won't rise up against them.
Just because you are wrong and I called you out on it doesn't mean I am a Troll.
When Egypt shut down their network to deal with protesters, the west was quick to say that's the response of a dictatorship and that it was morally wrong. Likewise when other countries shut down their social media to deal with protests.
And yet, a few rioters in London and suddenly we're more than happy to do exactly the same thing. I saw a headline where Iran was asking the UN to intercede on behalf of the UK rioters. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-iran-un-mahmoud-ahmadinejad Isn't this hilarious how we were angry at how Iran cracked down on protesters during their election, but we are more than happy to do exactly the same thing for a few looters. Ahmadinejad must be laughing like a madman.
Since the Magna Carta, England has not been able to get off their ass to pass a constitution, so law wise pretty much anything goes over there.
Yeah, that constitution works really well for the U.S.
A constitution is a piece of paper you wipe your ass with, unless you have a populous that cares enough to defend it.
Yes, because countries with constitutions never have such a problem, do they?
I wonder why most governments on the planet are quite young. Is it because the previous government just put in 2 weeks notice and quit? or because the former, often corrupt, government was forcefully booted out. If course governments don't want citizens to communicate with each other when they are unhappy.
It worked in Egypt, right?
Would David Cameron apologize for causing such a thing, or blame it on hooliganism?
Plus ca change, plus c'est les memes choses.
Cameron should shut up, with plans like that, he will just instigate more and larger riots.
Isn't it common practice to shoot looters on the act? Or does that only apply in war? Protesting is one thing. Looting hard working social peers is way off limits AFAIK.
I'm not really the rioting kind- but if I knew that's all it took to get rid of facebook et al. I would have taken up rioting years ago.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Why on earth would these people throw away free intel?
If anyone can join these social networks and see what is being planned then so can the government. The police forces can arrive early and be more than ready for all of the rioting idiots that show up. If I were in a position of power I would be thrilled to have such a vast amount of free intelligence available to me.
Love sees no species.
Not only will this emphatically fail to stop people who want to from spreading information, it will only drive it into more private channels of communication thereby actually denying the authorities a good source of evidence for prosecution.
So with this great plan we get:
a) Censorship
b) Still organised rioters
c) Frustrated legitimate users of social media sites
d) Destruction of an excellent source of intel and evidence gathering for the police during and after the fact
And if you feel like protesting about it you better not shout too loud. The police have now got water cannons and plastic bullets and I bet they're just itching to use them on somebody.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
There are people who didn't go out and riot because they were able to vent online.
Between the three of them they don't have a brain cell to rub together about how the Internet works, how folks use the Internet or how services like Twitter, FaceBook, Linked-In, Google+, Flickr, Wordpress (or unpteen other publicly accessable websites) work. They weren't able to effectively block those sites in my son's secondary school (because the kids knew how to find and use an open unblocked proxy).
They are also clueless about how folks use those things from their mobile phones.
Quite simply this won't work unless they get a pair of bolt croppers and physically sever the cables across the Atlantic, English Channel and North Sea (which would take out the POTS with it). They'd also need to shoot down a few satellites while they're trying to disconnect things.
Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.
Riots organised by social networks are riots with an audit trail. They work both ways.
Aside from the obvious: "Why, yes indeed, a few million in property damage that our entire city worth of riot cops, grown fat on years of kettling peaceful protesters, are too feckless to stop is more than enough to make me do arbitrarily draconian things! It is my pleasure to offer ammunition to enemies of human rights everywhere!" aspect, this just seems enormously tactically idiotic. Social networks are only the most powerful development in the history of western civilization when it comes to suppressing the activities of dumb kids...
Why would you possibly want to shut down social networks or other electronic messaging systems? They are all run by relatively supine corporations, willing or eager to cooperate with police in turning over user data, and almost none of them(certainly none in common use) offer any security to users against operators(some, like BBM, offer pretty good security against 3rd parties, and even basic cellphones offer some; but all common electronic communication mechanisms are essentially transparent to their operators).
Why would you want to drive people away from the highly transparent, easily logged-for-evidence-purposes, often comes with realtime location data and strong correlation with unique ID, electronic communications and back to informal, somewhat inefficient to use; but damned difficult and time consuming to use for evidence, face-to-face or other informal systems?
In the moment, electronic communication is a boon to rioters, offering swift coordination that the cops seem incapable of matching. In the medium term, though, the state can simply sort through the records, systematically compiling compelling evidence of guilt, attached to timestamps, locations, and IDs, and then bag your ass at their leisure, any time before the statute of limitations, if any, runs out. Ma Bell and Mark Zuckerberg don't forget, and that "private" checkbox is pretty much cosmetic. You are Fucked if you coordinate your unlawful activity electronically.
Why does Cameron want to discourage this spontaneously constructed Benthamite paradise and encourage a return to coordination that will require enormous humint efforts on the part of the police(and I'm sure the Met cops have no shortage of agents who blend right in with disaffected minority youth...) to unravel, or (less probably; but even worse for the cops) some of the yobs actually learning something about communication security?
Typical politician showing how ill informed he is. Blackberry Messenger and mobile phones were the tools used to organise this, not Facebook and twitter etc. If Blackberry and the phone companies had just introduced a random lag of 10 minutes + 0 to 15 mins to the messages it would have gone a long way to neutralising it as an organising tool without complete shutdown.
People have got together and demonstrated, picketed and rioted long before the advent of social media. It is just that, communication is much more efficient and easier today. And surely, people will find ways to circumvent even if social media gets banned tomorrow.
I think UK PM is focusing on the wrong stuff -- social media -- to begin with. I mean, he should deeply analyze what are the root causes behind these massive riots. The reason (according to my understanding) is the youth who are denied a better future because of the greed of preceding generation(s).
Let's face the truth... we are living in a world of politicians, bankers, financiers, top shots who steal wealth from common people and run away without a scratch; while a poor teenager getting batton-down for stealing a pair of jeans. How fair is that ? isn't bankrupting entire nations and sending financial shock waves across the globe a criminal act?
"So far I haven't heard anyone blame the Rock 'n Roll music, but if social networks aren't a good enough culprit, you could also try blaming video games." Love the snide tag there, Taco. While the discussion of turning off the social media is one that is disturbing, do you think they are considering this in response to some hooligans who are staying out late, smoking a cigarette or three? Perhaps you missed the chavs and chavettes stating that this was about showing the rich and the police that this was a demonstration that they could do what they wanted. As you seem to imply that this plan is a poor one, can you suggest a better plan? Here's mine - arm all shop owners with shot guns.
is it that bad seein a hot chick again? if i see a hot chick walkin down the hall i dont say "repost"
Yes, because countries with constitutions never have such a problem, do they?
Actually in terms of suddenly preventing free speech, etc. they don't.
I am hopeful that the government is only raising this to appease those who genuinely believe it's a good idea, while planning to dismiss it later "after consideration" as being unnecessary.
Apart from the fact that it's basically technically impossible to "block Twitter/FB" (or whatever) in any meaningful way - and everyone knows it - I don't think it would have made any difference to the rioting.
After all, there have been riots and unrest for centuries. However, the post-riot organised cleanup could not easily have happened without social media. And that was a good thing. Also those caught up in areas affected by the riots were able to find out what was going on by using social media. And that's a good thing too.
"If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it." --- Arthur Kasspe
The sentiment that this is akin to communist control of social networks is off the mark. Organized looting and vandalism is a form of terrorism. Many countries will freeze the assets of these organizations, shut down their websites and email addresses, and anything else they can do to cripple their communication.
In a moment of emergency where social networks are enabling gross acts of violence, I think a government is well within its right to shut these down temporarily. Yes, it is a power that could be abused -- but innocent people were killed. People had their businesses burned out. Folks could not leave their homes because idiots were looting, vandalizing, and killing. Shutting down a social network temporarily is insignificant next to the suffering of the uninvolved bystanders.
They're not saying that the social networks are causing the civil unrest, what they're saying is that they're allowing those organizing it a much easier time communicating plan changes as it goes on. Shutting down those lines of communication would make it easier for the authorities to stop the unrest.
That makes sense. The government's job it to keep order and this is one way to aid that when things get out of hand. Remember the UK does have a very real terrorist threat in Northern Ireland. They need to think aobut these kinds of things, draconian as they are. It's inportant that they have this power, however the manner in which they weild it is far more important.
65 years in overtime and the fascists are winning.
They should open a new site for the serious social looter. The CaseBook. It could index enhanced reality overlays ($$$$) to Google StreetView data.
And I wonder how long until football hooligans start organizing flashsbrawls? Anyone?
There is an issue here. I saw it the day I witnessed my first flashmob. My reaction was not, "Cool." It was "Uh oh, how long until others, with less scruples, target someone." This is new territory. Organized gang activity just got access to constant realtime intel. I pray that we (society) will figure out how to deal with it without shutting it all down. In the meantime, keep an eye on police brutality, kids. This is a deadly serious game.
"Four dead in Ohio" serious. Stay safe.
1) Find a way to monitor communications around illegal activity (or activity you don't like)
2) Shut it down
3) Criminals find/create a new way to communicate that can't be shut down (or monitored as easily)
I don't think he has the arguments nailed down yet. He needs to toss in some details on how it's used for child porn - that'll get support to shut down just about anything.
The politicos don't understand the role that social media and internet communications play in people's lives
On the contrary, they know exactly what they are doing. If they can set a precedent where the level of power necessary to do such things is reached -- achieving a culture where this level of power is not only tolerated but expected -- then they can leverage that power for the next expansion of power and/or revenue.
You're not in the business of government, are you?
If they shut down social networks, hooligans will sign in to an anti-social network.
You sure about that? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom
We are being buried beneath the avalanche of your inadequacies, Mr. Creedy!
What we need right now is a clear message to the people of this country. This message must be read in every newspaper, heard on every radio and seen on every television. This message will resound throughout the entire InterLink.
On Tuesday night I was following various friends on Facebook posting details of trouble they'd heard about. At least one person knew to avoid the local town centre, as they heard, via FB, that there were large numbers of youths gathered there and trouble looked likely.
The local police have a twitter account, and were using it to dispel invalid rumours of trouble. They were also receiving messages of support.
Social networking is just another method of communication. If Cameron is serious about it, he should also include other methods of communication - would he seriously advocate shutting down the telephone network? If not, why single out the internet just because it's new. Idiot.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
It doesn't matter if they block every single social media site out there that is public. I'm as green as can be in the IT world and know this much: Will as many ways of communication there are out there, if people want to find a way to communicate quickly... they will. If Cameron chooses to go down this path then he should be prepared to shut down all forms of public communication. It's a slippery slope he's choosing to go down.
Actually, they often do; the Soviet Union, like the US, had a written constitution (with even broader guarantees of rights)..
Laws -- whether written or unwritten; constitutions, treaties, or regular laws -- don't matter except insofar as people choose to make them matter. Assaults on freedom succeed where the public tolerates them, and fail where the public doesn't; a written constitution may be a factor in either direction (it can serve as a rallying flag for opposition, or serve as a source of apathy as people choose not to take action trusting that since the Constitution exists and in theory protects them, anything that is done must be authorized by it), but is ultimately not the deciding factor.
How about we put the blame on the RIOTERS rather than try to find the 'scape-goat'???
So far I haven't heard anyone blame the Rock 'n Roll music
No, but it has been blamed on rap music (among other things)
to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.
For instance, if they were using them to plot a massive suppression of citizens' ability to communicate. Then we'd definitely need to do something... ;)
It's too bad the early Colonial U.S. didn't have Facebook when the British were invading. It would have saved Paul Revere a lot of time.
After all, riots like these never happened until cell phones and social networking were available, and the crime rate has only risen since they were available.
[Idiots]
I think social networks shouldn't be shut down due to protests, but if it turns into a bunch of criminal kiddies like the London riots, who use social networks to plan their crimes, allowing the government to shut down these websites would be a contribution to stopping these crimes. I certainly wouldn't mind not having access to Facebook or twitter for a few days until the situation is resolved.
Think about it, this isn't about the man who got shot in Tottenham at all, it's just thugs taking advantage of the situation. If they were really trying to fight against police brutality, they would make protests or gatherings similar to what was seen in Egypt. People marching somewhere, holding signs demanding the government to take the appropriate measures to solve the situation, not this chaos of purposeless looting. If you want to defend your community from what you consider abuse of authority from the police, why would you destroy innocent people's property and steal from them? Shouldn't your "anger" be directed towards the police or government?
This type of situation could use some censorship to prevent more people from getting hurt or losing their property. I know this is a sensitive matter, but I think these kind of measures can only be justified if they are taken by democratic governments attempting to stop criminal activities en masse.
When the politicians and the bureaucrats fail to protect the public interest, they always look for a scapegoat. Why not shut down the newspapers and TV while you're at it Cameron? Why not declare marshal law?
Maybe the British should have banned lanterns when they were about to land in Boston?
Social Media isn't a new concept, sorry Facebook, MySpace et. al. and trying to shut off one form of communication will push people to other mechanisms. By shutting off avenues of communication you will increase tensions and create more violent responses all the while you'll be losing your constituents because they rely on the technology now to find out what's going on. Mobile Devices do increase the rate of information exchange, without question and in no way should they be used to foster criminal actions like the thug flash mobs that have hit Philadelphia and Washington DC. At the root of these events you'll see a common set of threads though, unemployed young people who don't think they have much of a future. If society is worried about blackberries then they should be more worried about millions of young people who lose hope about their future. By creating a huge welfare state to being with, the UK has created an entire class of people who expect the government to give them everything they need. Now when that same government cuts back and kills programs and benefits, you now have a bunch of people who have little choice and no options. What do you expect is going to happen? The same thing is happening in the US. Now we have flash mobs attacking people in Philadelphia and going on rampages through stores in DC. These things are being perpetrated by thugs who have no jobs, no education and no prospects. Most likely they'll eventually wind up in the swelling ranks of our prison system where they can get their three meals a day, free health care and a roof over their heads. You see, when society doesn't provide avenues there are alternatives, right?
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Since the Magna Carta, England has not been able to get off their ass to pass a constitution.
You couldn't just pass a constitution in the UK, it would be unconstitutional. What you are in effect saying is that you think we would be better tearing up our existing constitution and getting a new shiny one. Are you so naive that you can't see the problem with that approach?
Please, lets just cut out the middleman of elapsed time and seal everyone into padded cells so citizens can be assured of their personal safety. If our children are threatened by these riots, there is no action strong enough to protect their physical safety - even if it means mental enslavement.
Sorry, I took my tinfoil hat off to comb my hair. Never do that again!
There was nothing in his speech about shutting down networks, merely targeting those inciting violence and disorder.
In that respect, it's bringing social networking in line with other UK media which are also bound not to incite violence etc. It's certainly not a shutdown of a service in any way.
Why are people not cheering these protests as they did when they happened in other nominal democracies like Iran and Syria?
YEAH!
Cut out everyone's vocal cords so they can't call, talk or share ideas!
Cut off everyone's fingers so they can't type, push buttons on copiers, use sign language!
Then give them back when the rioting is over.
Everything I have listened to regarding the events in London show quite clearly the people in charge are delusional.
There has been no one talking about the larger issue, everyone is pretty much blaming parents.
You have a large disenfranchised segment of the population. Why? That must be addressed or you will have a large disenfranchised adult population. Putting restraint on the group as a whole for the actions of a few will only disenfranchise and anger more people in the group. They will become adults, and their kids will be disenfranchiosed. It will get worse.
Then ramrodding people through the system with little real evidence is just wrong.
Yes, they should be appropriately dealt with; however punishment through fines or jail time may not be the best response. It would be better to work with them so they feel they are part society. THAT is better for the larger society.
I'm not sure which member of parliament was talking, but his assumption was anyone pickup is guilty and should have any rights. I found that appalling.
And yes, parenting holds some responsibility, but you don't raise a child on an island. You and your child are impact an influenced by society.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Some british were reported to ask for the police to shoot rioters. :O
I for one didn't know England was located in north africa.
They don't play any significant role in my life even though I use them. Anyone who thinks twitter or facebook are some sort of essential infrastucture compared to POTS or the post office are deluded idiots.
Yes, it's one of those strange irregular nouns:
I am a freedom fighter
You are an insurgent
He is a terrorist
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
I would think law enforcement would be shooting themselves in the foot shutting down these networks. What more could they ask for then to have them advertise their intentions in public. It like when law enforcement was complaining about sex adds on Craigslist. It's got save on investigation time when all you have to do is go the Craigslist pick an ad and make an arrest.
In the eighties, the British press and politicians were going on and on about how the current riots were being coordinated by CB radio. And let's not forget that the same things was said of cell phones when they first started penetrating the mass market and were seen in the hands of rioters. This is just more of the same bullshit.
Lots of comments about threats to freedom, inappropriate response, with some considering the threat of the rioting. All points to consider.
No one (except the third category above indirectly) is considering what's it like to be in that riot. Someone decides to beat you to a pulp (for whatever reason) better hope you have more mates and bystanders interested in backing you up than those who want to beat you or cheer the beaters on.
And all that looting, buildings burnt to the ground. People losing their homes, their workplaces, their work of a lifetime. So what some of them may have insurance.
There's a whole lot of wrong that has led to all these young men (and some women) wanting to rip up and burn down the town. But that doesn't matter right now, because there's ongoing rioting, a threat to life and limb. People are already been hurt and soon some will be killed.
This has to be stopped. And then the causes fixed.
And David Cameron, for all his flaws, is the man in the hotseat. He's the political leader that has to find a way to stop this. And he has to answer in Parliament during Question Period every day.
And I hope he and his government find one quickly.
All you who've crowed out your protests, when have you been a leader? With people's lives in you hands, with things out of control, having to find a difficult and quick solution not now, but *right* *fucking* *now*.
At time, this is like war. You "win" the war--end the violence by defeating the will to continue the violence. Then you "win" the peace--make sure that things are properly right and free afterwards.
Mistakes will be made. Better short-term mistakes than people maimed and killed.
Oh yes, lets further punish business's who manage to survive the crappy monetary system's attack on the markets. Let's lower the trust to zero while increasing the uncertainty 100%. Let's just forget who created this problem with the fucked up markets, let's give all the criminal banksters not only "KMA CARD: a get out of jail/trouble free card" but let's also make sure "we won't even look at your crimes"
Don't shut down social networks, shut down the criminals operating the global banking system who caused all these problems with the worlds monetary systems in the first place.. Get rid of these fucking fake democrats and republicans who have foreign and corporate interests over that of the public--it's who's agenda they tow, not that fucking (D) or (R) after their name, it's the (AIPAC), (PNAC), (CFR), etc. which they don't want written behind their names.
Who among you can tell me the names of the 12 Super Congress? If you can name them, the next question is, do these Senators use electronic warfare filtering to prevent the public from contacting them if they are not in the correct district. e,g, you want to write them but the email form asks for zip code, and then refuses to send the message when your fucking zip code doesn't match the fucking tyrannical King's district. Oh and if you can show that's not a problem, I have one last one... Where in the US Constitution does it say you can create a Super Congress. This is treason. Fuck al-quaida our governments are the terrorists.
The Headline should say, FINANCIAL TERRORISTS SHUT DOWN SOCIAL NETWORKING TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM GETTING DESERVED JUSTICE
The thing is there is no purpose to the riots. The roving mobs of vandals have no goals beyond stealing as much as possible and causing damage. When there is no issue or problem for you to address sometimes the only way to resolve a situation is by making the risk drastically out weigh the reward. Start shooting rioters and you'll end the riots right quick, it would be VERY different if there was popular support for the rioters or if they had an agenda.
These aren't ideas that people are rioting for, they're iPads.
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
During the recent unrest I was using Twitter to access my local police force's feed to see what trouble was going on in my area.
So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.
Isn't plotting violence, disorder and criminality a crime in its-self? If the authorities have evidence of these things why would they not go arrest the individuals straight away instead of deciding to block access to some website. If they don't have evidence, how can they get a judge to authorize the block? Maybe things work different in the UK, and the police can just dole out punishments without judicial oversight?
It sounds to me like the British need to reign in their law enforcement officers almost as much as they need to reign in these rioters.
the 5th of November.
If that's the way people want to spin it so be it, but the actual case is that they want those who are inciting violence to be monitored and banned (for a time) from networks like Twitter and Facebook. It's the digital equivalent of moving along some nutter in the street calling for a riot.
> Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill.
Cameron has revealed himself as a tyrant by making that statement. The "ill" of which he speaks is the price we must pay for all the good. It's the same idea that setting guilty people free is the price we must pay for running a justice system that doesn't send innocent people to prison. Why do so few people get that? If you get it, then mod me up.
>Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill.
Cameron has revealed himself as a tyrant for making that statement. The "ill" of which he speaks is the price we must pay in exchange for the good. It's like setting guilty people free is the price we must pay for a justice system that doesn't send innocent people to prison. Why do so few people get that? If you get it, then mod me up.
Riots have been going on in London for centuries, at least since the Peasant Revolt of 1381. I was amazed to learn that there is even a London Riot Re-enactment Society, sort of like the Civil War reenactors in the States, only a bit more tongue-in-cheek. The politicians are right to be worried, though. As I recall my history, a lot of London riots include a part where the Lord Mayor is dragged of of some hidey hole and hanged on a street corner. Heads on pikes are also traditional features. I'm pretty sure that the Gin Riots of 1743 took place without the aid of Black Berries.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
These same social networks that are "supposedly" being used to coordinate these attacks/demonstrations can be used by the police to keep tabs on what people are planning. If their facial recognition technology is good enough the police should already know whose twittface accounts to be looking at.
"We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
no-one blamed rock n roll music... but there were quite a lot of criticisms placed on 'gangsta' rap. Particularly the theme of 'get rich quick or die trying' that incites the listener to believe in a world where instant riches through crime is preferable to a life spent working hard.
I guess the middle classes (with their property investments) and the rich (bankers) have a similar effect, but they're not being blamed by anyone other than cartoonists
Yes, because countries with constitutions never have such a problem, do they?
Actually in terms of suddenly preventing free speech, etc. they don't.
Right to peaceful assembly? As long as you're in a free speech zone
Right to not be stopped and searched with no suspicion? As long as you're not in a constitution free zone (i.e. the U.S.A)
...but Rap music has: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/10/london-riots-is-rap-music-to-blame-for-encouraging-this-culture-of-violence-115875-23333250/
This actually makes sense. Social networks are not vital, they can be shut down temporarily. During the riots people got killed or wounded. Businesses were destroyed. Taxpayers will foot the bill for the damages. So yes, shutting down those communication networks is a good idea if it can prevent violence, disorder and criminality.
When social networks enable a segment of the population to challenge an oppressive government in the middle east, those social networks are championed.
When social networks enable a segment of the population to challenge an oppressive government in Europe, those social networks are vilified.
Anyone else see the reports of Facebook taking down pages where people were organizing riots? Or hear the reports of RIM assisting the UK government in catching those using its services to organize riots?
Can you imagine the outcry if these companies had turned against the popular uprisings in the middle east. But when its rich white European oligarchy that is being challenged... silence.
Telegraph, Guardian, BBC, CNN, NPR... all propaganda stations that paint the rioters in the most demeaning light possible. "Mindless violence", they call it.
Want something a little less biased toward the Western oligarchy? The hypocrisy is not lost on the Arab media. Read Al-Jazeera Just as when the mideast riots broke out, they are currently the only ones giving the oppressed an equal voice in the media.
For the rest of Europe: this discontent is coming soon to a city near you.
The only way this was contained last night was due to a vast deployment of security forces. This is costing the government tens of millions every day. Money that they cannot afford to spend. When the security forces inevitably pull back, the rioting will resume, because the underlying cause of the riots is not going to be addressed, any more than it was addressed in Egypt, Lybia, Tunisia, etc.
As the austerity measures throughout Europe begin to kick in, and the European economies slowly descend into a pit of despair, a civil war between the haves and the have-nots is inevitable. And unlike in WWII, there will be no convincing the poor, unwashed masses that their enemies are the poor, unwashed masses in the neighboring country. This time, thanks to our communication channels, the have-nots will know who their real enemies are, and what we're seeing now across the UK is the beginning of what will likely be regarded as WWIII. But it will be more akin to a global civil war, rather than a world war as we are accustomed to thinking of it.
America is not immune. Once the dam breaks in Europe, it'll be less than 12 months before the unrest reaches our shores.
Invest in gold, guns, food, and farmland, and if you value your life, get far away from the cities and suburbs while you still have time.
I understand poor little Britain's position. Once the Sun Never Set on the British Empire, and now they are largely irrelevant because their former colonies revolted or else-wise left the control of the commonwealth. But as a few odd guys a few hundred years pointed out, it is the right of the people, the right, not a government sanctioned privilege, to throw off the yokes of tyranny of an oppressive government. I for one think that in the US the Internet usage by individuals is not only a protected first amendment right, but also a second amendment one. (Arms covers all offensive as well as defensive means like armor not just things like firearms. Knives, slingshots, etc. are covered, so should the Internet and social networks be covered as well.)
As the times change we don't leave our freedoms in the past, we embrace the new technology in the spirit of the old. It is hypocritical of any country that has helped a revolution elsewhere to oppress its own people and their right to replace their own government, hopefully through peaceful means, but when tyranny arises, so must the people, and to do that, the tools must be allowed, which also aids in checking a government from aggressiveness. The free flow of information is a basic vital right.
That said the government using social networks traffic to stop criminals is also not a bad thing. But the technology exists to monitor the traffic substantially easier than radio, so governments should invest a bit more in that side. Shutting them down is not the answer, and technically not possible by a single government as they would have to disconnect their country from the Internet completely and we know from Iran that is just not possible. They work hard at it and fail. And for a vibrant modern economy it is economic suicide. Iran and the like can, because they have fallen behind so losing the Internet is not a huge impact on their business. But a notch above them in the third world countries depend on the Internet to do vital communications and transact business. And the rest of the economic powers are extremely dependent on the Internet to the point of beginning to dismantle the surface mail systems to some extent. The way to stop a riot is twofold. Resolve the initiating conditions if reasonable for the population as a whole. And if not overwhelming force. But the use of force is tricky to avoid getting the general population from deciding that yes the government has gone too far and joining the riot. Britain should look back at the forces that caused the Magna Carta to come to be, and to the forces initiating the American Revolution and see what the trigger conditions for the current situation are. Then peacefully resolve them. The current economic crisis worldwide can be resolved and reset, if we allow the people the freedom to do so, and remove incorrect politically motivated drains on the economies which only serve to increase the stress.
It is better to embrace the technology to quell the unrest than to be Ludites and go backwards.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
So silly. Brittons are upset about a huge number of serious social issues. They feel their government isn't dynamic enough, their social services are garbage, that the rich are increasingly distanced from the poor, that housing is substandard, that immigration is out-stepping supply, that they can't compete with labour costs in other parts of the EU, that they have no manufacturing backbone.
The solution, to ignore these problems and dis-empower and disenfranchise their people? Genius!
At some point Britain's rich will have to deal with a rise in taxes (capital gains and inheritance taxes are the most obvious) or live like prisoners surrounded by guards in closed off communities.
Britain has high unemployment, skilled and educated workforce, modern manufacturing capabilities and outdated infrastructure.... it's time for a new deal.
Sure, those involved in the riots have done a lot of senseless damage and behavior, but lets not forget that governing authorities (Law makers and law enforcement and judges) have all contributed to the problem by making laws that infringe upon rights, by enforcing things opinions that are not really law, and doing so in a draconian way, and finally by ruling for big industry over the little guy even when the little guy is the legal or lawful party.
Failure to accept that responsibility only adds insult to injury. Failure to correct their own bad behavior only adds fuel to the fire.
This is almost sounding t like the setup for the conditions that brought about the character V from V for Vendetta. Extreme social control, curfews, likely some secret police to keep an eye on the populace when they don't think they're being watched.
Keep an eye out for a shortage of Guy Fox masks.
Or forbid the state from turning its weapons on its own people.....
So if something can be used for ill, we just shouldn't have it at all? Say goodbye to everything you can't take on a plane...
Twinstiq, game news
If you know that they are plotting criminality why not simply arrest them? Is that not illegal in the UK?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
These summerfriends have already shown how easy it is to DDOS the legal system. I think it's unlikely that Cameron will hand them the tools to DDOS the comms system as well. They must realise how easy it would make it for activists to disrupt commerce by bringing down mobile networks in business districts. I'm sure he (and his advisors) aren't that stupid.
Korma: Good
See, they are not any different.
Take a comment, remove all the weasel words and end game it.
Much to learn, you still have, young Jedi.
Practice, you must. Slashdotter, you will be.
Ah I was waiting for this. So much the better, it will speed up the deployment of the logical next phase in the evolution of the internet - distributed, encrypted, truly anonymous social networks. Obviously the hordes of chavs won't be able to take advantage of this new technology (not immediately, anyway) but for those of us who are just getting tired of the relentless encroaching of our rights to share information and free speech, this will be a welcome development.
Sounds like distraction, so it seems they're really doing something about. Controlling or shutting down network segments or individuals would require preparation, I don't believe such an operation could be planned and carried out to have any signifficant effect on the situation right now. Nonsense. I even doubt it could be effective at all. But a planned strategy could be effective for controlling regular citizens in the long run. Maybe there's already a plan and the riots are purely instrumental, the real distraction?
Perhaps we need some sort of Enabling Act.
...don't understand the internet, computers and above all our social instincts to communicate with each other will make stupid suggestions like this again and again and again. When will we get it that we don't want professional politicians coming up with ideas to govern us. They should select the sources of ideas they trust, listen to the people, weight up the options and choose between what is offered, without adding any colouration from their own thinking. As our representatives, they should represent us, and our interests, not themselves, their ideas and their ultimate interest of getting re-elected. Absolutist monarchs never had these problems so why, as a purportedly more advanced and democratic society are we still ruled by the Absolutist Monarch that is the current community of professional politicians. We need a constitutional system so that politicians are not free to have their own ideas written into laws: they must give the ideas to the public and the public must think them through and, en masse, give them back before an idea should be considered worthy or writing onto the statue books. END RANT.
John_Chalisque
If social networks were criminalized then only criminals would use social networks. And if Real Names(tm) were required, then identification would be so easy, even the police could solve crimes.
Well, maybe.
How goddamned hard is it to soap down the intersections is a 6x6 block area? Two, maybe three trucks in 45 minutes. Have fun carting off a big screen teevee in that.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"So far I haven't heard anyone blame the Rock 'n Roll music"
Well, yesterday I was listening to Morissey singing "Shoplifters of the world, unite and take over", so I'm sure it won't be long before an MP with some taste notices this and tries to pull all of The Smiths work from the stores in case some impressionable youths take his advice to heart.
White Riot Lyrics
Artist(Band):The Clash
Review The Song (1) Print the Lyrics
Send "White Riot" Ringtones to Cell
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
Black people gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick
An' everybody's doing
Just what they're told to
An' nobody wants
To go to jail!
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
All the power's in the hands
Of people rich enough to buy it
While we walk the street
Too chicken to even try it
Everybody's doing
Just what they're told to
Nobody wants
To go to jail!
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
Are you taking over
or are you taking orders?
Are you going backwards
Or are you going forwards?
If not social networks, emails, if not emails text messages, if not then voice calls... and so on, going down this road only leads to disconnecting people and not only hindering social communication but communication critical to economy... Eventually the dark ages.
All of this is just an attempt to treat the symptoms... morally void youths. If the law in this country wasn't so soft on them and family life for the majority hadn't disintegrated into the irresponsible ignorant mess that it has become, then regardless of the economic troubles, they wouldn't be looting, terrorising shops and killing and stealing from passers by.
And i believe this may well have stemmed from the overly precautious rule making tradition of this country, as soon as one person does something stupid a whole new law has to be made because people complain... these laws usually end up hindering people more than helping them. In the case of youths it's partly the limitations imposed upon teachers. Another example is how police are increasingly scrutinised when using force upon a black person... it's ignored when they are white but when they are black it's called "racism".
From the header ...
... when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.
It's not the Social Networking Services which are plotting these riots, it's the people misusing them. Just like they could do the same via other means.
No one is saying that the social networks caused the unrest in London. The British are smarter than that. What they are saying is that they were used by the rioters to coordinate their attacks and to get around police defences. It is perfectly right and natural for the police and other agencies responsible for national security to want to disable those services when the rioting starts. If you don't like that for privacy reasons, fine, but provide alternative suggestions that address the privacy and safety problems for those who are being attacked. I would be happy for the police to have the power to collect all text messages at such times and to use them to prosecute those scumbags. That would soon stop the sites being used like that.
Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
Start shooting rioters and you'll end the riots right quick, it would be VERY different if there was popular support for the rioters or if they had an agenda.
Some did have an agenda (I doubt all did, however):
expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?
"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"
The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."
Source: http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot
Not saying that rioting was the correct way to go about it, but some of them seemed to think it was.
Ban social networks? Nah. The underlying problem is communication. We should ban all communication when "we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality." Hmmmmm... can you make a whole country sit quietly in the corner for a time-out? :P
The first night I think most of them had an agenda and maybe a few of them still do. Unfortunately the riots have evolved into disjointed looting and pillaging without purpose or message other than greed and violence.
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
Add to this the requirement for licensing
mimeograph equipment and paper sales.
Purchasing of paper in quantities larger than
a 20 page pad will require a permit. Permit
or not a case of paper is considered Prima facie
evidence that you intend to foment a riot. Transport
of paper across state lines invites a visit from
the FBI as that is now a federal issue.
LOSING THEIR POWER - &, if you play games like THEY do, like rousing public opinion vs. them, ESPECIALLY WITH TRUTHS (by using the tools they themselves do, in utilizing the marketing "jump on the bandwagon" illusion of consensus effect)?
This is the result, EVERY time.
Then, as you can see here? Well, then, they're reacting the ONLY WAY THEIR LIMITED MINDS KNOW HOW TO is why.
Sorry but... hey - Politicians, are scumbags, 9/10 times, period. They're not even really qualified to be "leading others" at all, period.
They aren't TRAINED TO SOLVE PROBLEMS OF ANY KIND (e.g.-> How many are actually versed in the largest problem there is, financial ones, for example?), yet they "lead us"? Bullshit...
What IS needed, is people who can & DO solve problems... scientific/engineer/technical people, + business people, leading us... not glad-hander bullshit artists!
They contract others, which in turn, costs taxpayers even more... wtf are they DOING IN THE JOB if they cannot do the jobs necessary themselves I ask you? Please - *THINK* about that much. It's some SERIOUS "Food 4 Thought" that...
The "best minds" go to the private sector (which face it, REALLY "runs the show" out there & has for decades if not longer (i.e.-> Big money does))...
Which, in turn, allows them to stay in control even MORESO, by buying up the best & brightest!
The "best & brightest"... Yes, who probably go in with good intentions even (perhaps even trying to change the world for the better)!
They get there, only to find out their work's used to KEEP THE MASSES DOWN, or continually chasing a carrot in front of their noses buying (you guessed it) MORE PRODUCT yet again!
(Done by shipping products that are ALREADY outclassed by the next round already (or with known defect issues) designed when this one shipped, in a patent safe, being held as a competitive edge for said "next round of shipping product" etc./et al).
They're not out to build the best they can - businesses are OUT TO TAKE YOUR MONIES, & they use what's called the "revolving door" to either put their own puppets/cronies into legal-political power to ensure this as well (see ANY major corporate bodies' campaign contributions, they "hedge/box their bets", backing all parties concerned is why & how)... OR, like "Darth Cheney", they enter office themselves, change laws as needed to suit & favor them, & head right back into the "corporatocracy" to reap the benefits of such trickery!
* People - These are THE SINGLE LARGEST PROBLEMS THERE IS, our "bought & paid for" leaders that are TRULY, "the best money can REALLY buy"... I've kept my mouth shut about it for years now, no more - these rat thieving bastard crooks are running the planet into the ground in world economies, & that's when the buck HAS TO STOP!
Sure - as Gov. Hughie Long said: "Eat rich man, get fat... but leave SOME FOR THE REST OF US"... whatever happened to that? I'll tell you what - it got Mr. Long shot, same as it did JFK!
APK
Look @ the USSR/Russia/Soviet Union (Whatever they call themselves nowadays), specifically Vlad Putin! Now, there'a guy I admire, hate to say it actually, but I give credit WHERE IT IS DUE - the guy took LESS PAY than the rest of the Duma (their congress/house/senate analog basically) almost... & turned them around from financial ruin.
How?
Well - The man actually understood his nations' problems @ an economic level for one thing, & this is a guy that's a BORN killer too (showing he's not some "1 dimensional bullshit artist glad-hander").
He cured them, bigtime... turned them around from ruin, almost single-handedly. Here is a guy that kills polar bear (iirc), rides a harley, & was a killer for them for hire too (literally). I admire his results, and yes, the man too.
That's really what WE need - We need a businessman/social scientist/technician combination of a man in power in the USA, more than anything else!
That, alongside politicians in the house/senate that understand the economics difficulties as well (as I said in my init. post - hell, an IDIOT would have understood the "hedgefund" pseudo mortgage-backed (on variable rates b.s., the problem here) securities + banking scandals - but not the dolts leading us (perhaps they did, but were told to downplay OR ignore it, lining their own pockets in the process))!
However & then again, the TRUE "powers-that-be" do NOT want, or allow, for this, in the USA. No - that'd "upset the applecart", by introducing people with the abilities & education, understanding, & MOST OF ALL, ACQUIRED WISDOM thru experience!
(Which is experience, & that comes from being there, doing the job "hands-on in the trenches" alongside actual training & education in said arenas - which means they've made some mistakes too, & learned by them as well)...
* Am I, for one, sick of the outright BULLSHIT & scumbags that are really "the best money can TRULY BUY" being in office as our "elected officials" (yea, right - see the Ohio + Florida rigged voting machines & nepotism (bushes) scenarios for reference on this note too)?
(Am I angry about it? You BET!)
APK
P.S.=> Now, I don't mind a guy taking a "bit off the top" skimming SOME cream... by no means. That's just how shit works, & always has, but do NOT rob the rest of us f'ing blind & impoverish us - destroying companies, forcing the easiest control mechanism there is (cutting payrolls, rarely execs mind you also, of jobs of actual PRODUCTIVE TAX PAYING & PRODUCT BUYING EMPLOYEES + GIVING THEMSELVES FAT RAISES FOR DOING IT NO LESS!!! WTF!!!!)
I mean, how F'ING STUPID CAN YOU BE?
That means less taxpayers & product buyers, & the "international markets" b.s. (which I told my prof.'s in economics (macro) would NOT work in the end, guess who was right? Not they...
Now, the same prof. threatened to FAIL ME because I spoke it aloud in class, & said he could NOT *think* for himself, long-term, & only followed what "FORBES MAGAZINE" & others like it told he, period (to which I told he "you have people you answer to, I have my classmates as witnesses, and are MY EMPLOYEE pal" & he shut up + I did well enough in the class in the end!)
Man - I mean, to me?
Seriously too - All the "NPV"/"FPV" type plugin numbers into a formula bullshit (along with understanding what it is they are projecting/forecasting/prognosticating/predicting, very crucial this) is a variation on differential equations ONLY, albeit practically applied as best as possible (change over time) & subject to changing conditions of market (the weakness is this) & quite easy to understand - you look at it the way you do balancing your OWN finances as an analog is all really, makes it VERY simple to understand))).
Do we have politicians that understand this?
I say no, because ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS SIMPLE (same as these bullshit artists in corporate america as mgt. do, using reverse psychology):
"LOOK AT THE RESULTS OF YOUR 'FINE LEADERSHIP SKILLS'" DOLTS!
(They, in particular, speak for themselves... period!)
... apk