United Pilots To Use iPads For Navigation

bonch writes "Pilots of United and Continental will ditch flight manuals and charts in favor of 11,000 iPads containing the same data in app form. Replacing 38 pounds of paper materials, the iPads will run an app called Mobile FliteDeck from Jeppesen, a provider of software navigation tools. Alaska Airlines adopted iPads back in May. United estimates a savings of 326,000 gallons of fuel a year due to the lighter load."

Comments

Fuel Savings

[cforciea]

United estimates a savings of 326,000 gallons of fuel a year due to the lighter load.

And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?

Re:Fuel Savings

[intellitech]

Apparently, carbon footprint calculations are a selective thing to them.

Re:Fuel Savings

[idontgno]

None of United's, that's how many.

Offloading costs onto someone else is a fine upstanding business cost-reduction strategy. I don't understand why you raise irrelevancies like this.

Next, you're gonna insist that non-mandated "externalities" like pollution emission or local wildlife population impacts need to be factored into cost/benefit analyses. Sheesh.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Godai]

Actually, I was thinking more directly than that. 11,000 iPads are -- without a volume discount (so its a high estmate) -- would be $5.5M roughly. 326,000 gallons fuel -- (if its the same fuel price as you find at the pump) would be roughly $1.1M. So while it might make a lot of sense long term, its going to take 5 years of fuel savings to recoup the investment in iPads. If jet fuel is more expensive than car fuel, it has to be 5x as expensive to make it worth it in a single year.

Re:Fuel Savings

[NeutronCowboy]

How much do you think it takes to ship the paper around? It doesn't materialize in the cockpit either, you know.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

The big advantage is that the iPad manual doesn't have to be reprinted every year or so, which saves a small fortune on logistics. Plus the pilots (presumably) like it better.

Re:Fuel Savings

[gman003]

Exactly. Besides, commercial shipping's quite likely to be via container ship, which is a much more efficient way than flying it.

And when you factor in the environmental cost of the paper (which needs replacement every so often for updates or repair), it start to look like a relatively decent idea, ecologically.

(Mostly commenting to undo a misclicked moderation, but there's my $0.02)

Re:Fuel Savings

[timeOday]

On the other other hand, how often are the 38 pounds of paper manuals updated and re-printed?

I saw Steve Martin's bluegrass concert the other night and he got some comedic mileage out of using an iPad for the set list. "And now for our next number, Angry Birds Level 7." Good show btw.

Re:Fuel Savings

[sessamoid]

Jet fuel is comparable to gasoline in price. However there's more than just the jet fuel cost. The cost of printing 40 pounds of flight manuals and updates yearly and the manpower to make sure that the updated pages are put in every pilots flight manuals is not insubstantial, either.

Re:Fuel Savings

[geminidomino]

Jet Fuel Price Monitor

According to google's conversion (YMMV), 1 Oil Barrel = 42 gallons.

$124.60/42 = 2.96 (which matches the cents/gal column. I wasn't sure if that's what it meant so I did it by hand, since I've never seen 'cents' abbreviated 'cts').

Either way, the point is the same: it's cheaper than regular grade auto fuel by 17% (local prices as of yesterday).

Re:Fuel Savings

[GameboyRMH]

I was just about to ask if they're going to keep the original books on board. Because iPad batteries could fail suddenly. iPads could catch viruses. I remember when my Treo 650 that I was using as a GPS had it's battery crap out in the middle of an offroad rally. The backlight was flickering a bit earlier in the day but there was no other warning, the battery had suddenly swollen up and died. I was out in the middle of bumfuck nowhere late at night, off-route and completely lost, and my navigator was feeling sick (turned out he was coming down with appendicitis). I had my N900 but it only had street maps which are quite useless (and IIRC not allowed at that time, but I had just called in to let rally control know I was dropping out) for this purpose (we use nautical-style GPS).

Luckily I could find my way back to civilization and was safely on the ground the whole time.

So, tagged article "whatcouldpossiblygowrong."

Re:Fuel Savings

[ZackSchil]

Jet fuel is about $3 per gallon.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Zcar]

Compared to all the flights the 11,000 will be making once they're in United's hands? Probably not even worth a footnote.

Re:Fuel Savings

[i22y]

Actually, I was thinking more directly than that. 11,000 iPads are -- without a volume discount (so its a high estmate) -- would be $5.5M roughly. 326,000 gallons fuel -- (if its the same fuel price as you find at the pump) would be roughly $1.1M. So while it might make a lot of sense long term, its going to take 5 years of fuel savings to recoup the investment in iPads. If jet fuel is more expensive than car fuel, it has to be 5x as expensive to make it worth it in a single year.

They save not only the weight of the paper manuals (what the original fuel savings calculation references), but also the ability to roll out updates to all pilots quickly and cheaply. In addition, Jeppesen paper subscriptions are very expensive. Quite a bit cheaper on the iPad, yielding further savings.

Re:Fuel Savings

[crmarvin42]

So the iPad costs money to buy, but the paper maps don't?

What about the logistics of printing 11,000 35lb paper map books, updating them periodically (presumably on an annual basis at least), and distributing them to their pilots. That all costs real money that would need to be included in the equation. Not saying it would necessarily work out to be break even year one, but I'd expect it to take only a year or two to pay for itself.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're on an interesting track but your argument so far ignores the cost of production, updating and maintenance of paper manuals, replacing lost copies, and the potential cost of an error going uncorrected. You're assuming the manuals exist, aren't worn out, never need correcting and don't need replacing.

First off, are you confident that each of those 11,000 massive piles of specialist publications cost less than $499 each (in your world where volume discounts don't exist), and aren't updated, e.g. yearly? If you are, are you aware of how much medical textbooks cost?

 

Re:Fuel Savings

[alen]

from what i've read the paper manuals are updated every two weeks with a minimum of 3 sets per aircraft. now it's only going to be 1 set. that's a lot of money saved by going to ipad

Re:Fuel Savings

[vlm]

Jet fuel is about $3 per gallon.

Depends on your location and quantity. Last time I looked 100LL was like $5/gal in onesie twosie gallons from the local tiny airport FBO. I'm sure in tanker car loads direct from the refinery, you can pay $3 but not at the pump.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Sir_Eptishous]

Yea, but think about how much fun they will have playing Angry Birds in the toilet on the plane!

Re:Fuel Savings

[vlm]

Yank the battery out, run it off an automotive charger. There exists a worldwide standard panel plug for intercom power, but I haven't been in the left seat of a (small) plane for 20 years, so I don't remember.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a financial calculation not a carbon one. Jet fuel cost is the biggest variable in the airline industry.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Desler]

Because absolute no fuel is used in the production of the paper nor the shipping of those manuals now? Right... Oh and let's ignore the duplicated cost of shipping those new manuals every time there is a reprint whereas there is no subsequent fuel cost to push out new electronic versions.

Re:Fuel Savings

[crmarvin42]

I don't like responding to my own post, but it turns out a later post answered the update question. It's monthly, but only the changed maps are updated. Currently pilots have to go through the paper binder, and swap the updated maps for the old maps.

37195296

I'd be surprised if large corporate airlines didn't have someone who gets far less than a pilots salary that is responsible for updating the map books for the pilots. OTOH, if the pilots are responsible for their own map updates that's still a lot of time over the year that the pilots save using a digitally distributed map book. And since Time = Money, that would need to be incorparted into the cost benefit analysis as well.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, carbon footprint calculations are a selective thing to them.

Thats because you're holding it wrong!

Seriously? 38lbs? They could save more than that if they required every passenger to pee before flight.

Re:Fuel Savings

[linuxwolf69]

Why wait for the toilet?? Turn on autopilot and play away.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Godai]

No, I realize there were other factors involved. I considered the price of producing the maps but assumed it didn't add much to the comparison unless the maps cost a lot more than I assumed. I'm not really arguing against adopting iPads (or whatever handheld) I just took a little umbrage at the way they just threw in the "We save 326,000 gallons of fuel!" as if it was obviously a win. If they were talking 'save the planet', then I'd expect some idea of what % of overall consumption that constituted, so I assumed they were going for a monetary gain. And when I did the ballpark math it annoyed me that it wasn't as obviously a big win as they implied.

And like you point out, there are plenty of other advantages for going digital. Some downsides too, of course, like the danger of electronic failure (though you can ruin paper maps -- assuming they're not laminated -- in a variety of ways as well).

Just had a funny thought -- iPads all have wireless. Does this mean the pilots have to shut them down during takeoff & landing? ;)

(Yes, yes I know they aren't likely to need them turned on during either, but its a funny thought)

Re:Fuel Savings

[sjames]

The cost wasn't offloaded, they paid it as part of the price of the iPad.

The carbon footprint is another matter, but in cases like this, I can believe it is a net win. It's not just the reduced fuel costs to carry the things, it's also the monetary and environment cost of printing and shipping updates periodically vs. just downloading.

What I wonder is will the pilots have a working copy of the manuals if they have an in-flight incident involving extreme maneuvering and want to see what to do to limp to the nearest airport.

Re:Fuel Savings

[ehud42]

before fussing about the 'cost' of delivering iPads. Are those 38 pounds actually noticeable? A 737 can weigh anywhere from 62,000lbs empty to over 175,000lbs. 38lbs is 0.06% of the total weight. Those savings will be lost in the noise. Are there statisticians (sp?) who would be willing to prove the money is actually be saved after the fact? I suspect it is just lost in the noise, and the real reason is more like convenience of use, updates, etc.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

>And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?

The real question is what is the difference between production of those ipads and the creation of the equivalent paper manuals.

I would think that even if the initial expenditure was greater for the iPads, they would have to replace them less often than the paper manuals so it may be a long-term savings.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

i bet old stevie jobs is wetting his nappies at the thought of all the money the idiots are wasting .on his junk

Re:Fuel Savings

[Tharsman]

My guess is that it takes less gallons of fuel a y ear to bring those 11 iPads than it takes to cut down the trees that are then processed into paper, and produce the ink that is used to print said books, and then ship those books to the airports.

If you going to nitpick, you have to nitpick all the way, in all directions.

Re:Fuel Savings

[lerxstz]

Well those 11,000 iPads will be shipped once. They will however save fuel repeatedly on flights on an ongoing basis, so it would hopefully be a net savings. Unless they upgrade every year.

My concern would be, will the iPads affect the critical navigation systems in the planes, and will they be too much of a distraction to the pilots if there are (inevitably) other apps on them? I suppose someone thought to consider that, right? Right??

Re:Fuel Savings

[Godai]

No, I don't. You raise some interesting questions, several of which I considered but were hard to factor without a lot more information. Do the paper manuals get updated often? Or do they sit on a shelf somewhere barely used? Hell, maybe they get replaced every two months (though somehow I doubt it)!

I wasn't necessarily trying to make a definitive assertion, I was mostly just annoyed at the way the article proposed that saving 326,000 gallons of fuel as an obvious major win. I just did the quick math in my head and found a big disparity. Its entirely possible that the maps are far more expensive than I think and that would bring the two closer together, but they don't exactly go into it in the article.

I figure if you're going to put a figure or two forward as proof of how something is a good idea, its on you to provide more context or people like me will do napkin math and might come up with something else.

Re:Fuel Savings

[camperdave]

The savings won't be in the saved weight, but in the cost of printing and distributing updates, and in the timeliness of those updates.

On the plus side, though. 38 pounds would make for quite the heavy anti-terrorist cockpit door lock

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?

Why should United care about the answer to that question?
United moves people around, not cargo.

They will pay a one time cost shipping fee just like anyone else who orders a tablet.

But to answer your question directly, it costs 25 times less in fuel to ship all those iPads from China, than it does to ship the paper books from China.
Are you saying you would prefer them to use 25 times more fuel than they are now?! Why do you hate the planet so much? :(

Re:Fuel Savings

[Wyatt Earp]

I've had iPad orders ship directly from Taipei in the past, others ship from within the United States.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Wyatt Earp]

My cousin flies for a major airline who is still testing the iPad in the cockpit. The pilots are responsable for doing their own map updating.

Re:Fuel Savings

[vlm]

Are those 38 pounds actually noticeable?

Yes. As a renter, I carried everything I needed in a bag. You'd notice a 38 pound laptop, right? Owner friends kept their charts in their planes. I don't know how airlines work. Since its the pilots responsibility to have charts, I'm not sure how you can, as a pilot, trust the cabin has what you need unless you carry it.

My 152 and 172 rentals did not have the range for the coasts, or international, so I didn't carry the charts for, say, Hawaii. 38 pounds is a bit of an exaggeration, unless you have crazy range. If you can afford the jet and jet fuel to go 5000 miles, you can drop the dough at the FBO office to grab a set of charts if you need them at a distant airport. That is, after all, why they sell them.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Wyatt Earp]

The iPad cockpit setups have to, by FAA rules, have a charging cable attached to them during flight operations.

The maps and iPads are backups to the aircraft's onboard map display, not the primary navigational aid.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Wyatt Earp]

No, there won't be any interference, the FAA and airlines have been testing these things for about two years now and other airlines already have replaced the crew's paper maps with iPads (Alaska Airlines for one).

The pilots and copilots already have laptops up there and use those during commercial flights.

Re:Fuel Savings

[jonamous]

Where are you getting Jet-A for $3/gal? KACY has Jet-A for over $6/gal and KPTW has it for about $5.40.

Re:Fuel Savings

[jonamous]

Paper charts are replaced quite often. I know international flights get a big stack of paper freshly printed with every flight along with their normal paper wares (charts, etc).

Re:Fuel Savings

[i22y]

Airlines all have fuel arrangements with vendors for discounted fuel, but they're certainly paying more than $3 a gallon.

At the pump, my local airport is currently charging nearly $7 a gallon in the NYC metro area for Jet-A.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

Meh! You say, "External diseconomy," and I say, "Net income."

Re:Fuel Savings

[Yakasha]

Apparently, carbon footprint calculations are a selective thing to them.

1 iPad 2 = 105kg CO2 (http://images.apple.com/environment/reports/docs/iPad_2_Environmental_Report.pdf)
1 gallon jet fuel = 8.5kg CO2
105kg * 11,000 = 1,155,000kg
8.5kg * 326,000 = 2,771,000kg per year
Though really that is comparing apples & oranges: production cost vs related usage cost. Better would be to compare the CO2 impact of creating the paper manuals vs the CO2 impact of creating the iPads.
1 lb paper produces ~7 lbs CO2. 11,000 manuals * 38 pounds each = 2,926,000 lbs = 1,330,000kg CO2.
That is just the paper though. Still, lets just assume the CO2 cost of shipping the paper, printing the book, binding the book & shipping the book is 0 because I'm getting bored of googling and need to get back to work (grrrr /. ) So, 1.15 million kg for iPad production
or 1.3 million kg for paper production

They're about equal.

The 2.8 million kg CO2 from saving jet fuel each and every year is just environmental icing.

You should be thanking, not ridiculing.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Jazari]

And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?

And how many gallons of fuel are used to transport the trees that become the paper, and the thousands of manuals that have to be made and updated every year?
This looks like a good deal for everyone. No need to be cynical.

Re:Fuel Savings

[fafaforza]

Not reprinted, but they'll break, get lost, stolen. Plus, soon enough the iPad 3 will come out and you know we gotta have the latest one. And you'll need support people to maintain and troubleshoot the ones that do work.

Re:Fuel Savings

[mcavic]

lol, but -1 anyway.

Re:Fuel Savings

[OldPappy]

Thank you for doing this. Not sure of the accuracy of the calculations, but it was interesting to see this.

Re:Fuel Savings

[gad_zuki!]

Not to mention externalities like cost of maintaining & developing that massive flight app, tech support for these devices, maintenance and repair, charging schedules, theft costs, etc.

Oh course, the people who managed the print edition can do some of this work, but imagine most of them will be let go and replaced with an ipad helpdesk and app development department as well as QA and all the management involved in making it all happen.

I'm certainly not against progress, but there's a lot more here than just "we're saving weight/paper."

Just a thought, but 38lbs isn't a lot. I'm surprised these companies don't incentivize people to stay thin and healthy. A crew is like 6 people. If they all lost 5lbs then that's 30lbs right there and all this gas savings. Heck, why not weigh me and charge me my cost by weight and the weight of my luggage.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Jawnn]

Jet-A (especially at fleet prices) != 100LL. You do know this, right?

Re:Fuel Savings

[nedlohs]

Why would they give they shit?

All they care is how much money do we save in fuel costs over the life of the devices versus how muhch do the iPads and software cost. And I can't see why you would expect them to care what the breakdown of the components/shipping/etc of iPad construction and delivery is.

Re:Fuel Savings

[narcc]

And when you factor in the environmental cost of the paper (which needs replacement every so often for updates or repair), it start to look like a relatively decent idea, ecologically.

Because the iPad's are super-durable as compared to paper charts and won't even need repaired or replaced?

Re:Fuel Savings

[hurfy]

Now if someone would care to add in the cost of producing and mailing the $$#%@! updates to all those paper manuals....

I think my dad had a kid so there would be someone to update that damn Jeppesen manual :O

Re:Fuel Savings

[narcc]

Heck, why not weigh me and charge me my cost by weight and the weight of my luggage.

Sounds reasonable to me, I'd really enjoy the savings. Of course, I'm not a fat slob like the majority of my countrymen.

Remember all the news stories about the fatties who whined and complained because the airline forced them to buy two seats because they couldn't squeeze their way into a normal-sized seat?

Imagine the, slow, grunting, uprising -- it could get hilarious.

Re:Fuel Savings

[DerekLyons]

United estimates a savings of 326,000 gallons of fuel a year due to the lighter load.

And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?

The share of the ship's fuel budget represented by a single forty foot container (more than enough to hold those iPads) probably comes for around a thousand gallons or so, probably a bit less. You also have to consider that FedEx won't be shipping hundreds of packages of map updates every month either.

Re:Fuel Savings

[L0rdJedi]

A year? It's a one time cost for the iPads. The flight manual would then just need to be updated in a central location and be automatically updated to the iPads. With paper, the entire manual would need to be reprinted.

Re:Fuel Savings

[L0rdJedi]

I thought about this too. They'll probably have them in some kind of docking station where they're always charging. Then, when/if they need them, they can just be pulled out and referenced right away.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Idbar]

Let me get it straight. They could have saved all this using a laptop or another device longtime ago, but they decided, the iPad would be the one for reading documents during Flight?

Intel and GE have a reader with certifications over reliability and some other stuff. And they picked an iPad?

Sounds almost hilarious.

Re:Fuel Savings

[gman003]

Well, when you need to update your charts every time a new airport opens, or closes, or adds a runway, I imagine it's a lot more cost-effective to make a software patch than it is to print out new chart pages.

Re:Fuel Savings

[cforciea]

Oh cool, iPads never break or need service. Good to know.

Re:Fuel Savings

[geekoid]

A closer calculation is iPad manufacturing and shipping vs. manual manufacturing, shipping, fuel saved on plane.
If you want to get fancy, you could also put in the amount of manual updates and errata that won't need to ship.

Re:Fuel Savings

[sjames]

They'll have to make sure they're strapped down as well or they'll end up broken when they're needed most.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Remember, a lot of the charts that amount to the 38 pounds of paper are revised every 56 days. That's a lot new paper getting printed out.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

100LL is gasoline...

Jet fuel (Jet A), as used in any commercial airliner with a turboprop or turbine engine is, in essence (excuse the pun), kerosene...Diesel fuel.

Jet A can get over $5 a gallon, if you buy it retail at a major airport FBO. Most airlines buy fuel futures and try and hedge against fuel price volatility. Southwest did this to great effect a few years ago.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

Many phones will not run with no battery, even though you supply them with power through the charging port. Typically you need at least a resistor to the third terminal, and maybe a capacitor across the power terminals -- not hard to do, but not something you can necessarily do on the road if you haven't prepared for it. (And if you're preparing for a battery failure, a spare battery is a simpler solution.)

Re:Fuel Savings

[Sun]

Wow, all you wanted was to undo a moderation mistake, and got a +5 insightful instead. Kinda reminds of Saul.

Shachar

Re:Fuel Savings

[DarwinSurvivor]

Well, If I'm reading http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/economics/fuel_monitor/Pages/index.aspx right, jet fuel is about $2.968/gal

Ipad: 11,000 x $499 (source) = $5,489,000
Jet fuel saved/year: 326,000 x $2.968 (source) = $967,568

So, $5489000 % $967568 = 5.672986291 years to pay off.

And that's not even counting training, maintenance, power (they need to be charged you know), replacements (dropped, batteries, lost, etc).

Re:Fuel Savings

[The Dawn Of Time]

And they'd better hope Steve and friends don't suddenly disapprove of navigation or the whole investment is *bloop* down the drain because Apple still owns those iPads with their restrictive control policies.

Re:Fuel Savings

[CapuchinSeven]

Why don't you head on over to google, do a little looking around at cooperate developed apps developed for your own company, then come back and say sorry for bothering everyone with your "omg apple r evil an own u an ur ipad" post.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Cimexus]

Pretty sure United are only interested in their fuel savings from a cost perspective, not because of any perceived net reduction in fuel usage or carbon emissions globally.

Re:Fuel Savings

[Methuseus]

I sat next to one of the people who didn't pay for a second seat. It was a looooooong 4 hour flight....

Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[shugah]

Flight manuals and navigation charts from the AppStore? Because Apple doesn't allow in-app downloading of books from third party publishers.

Spinning Wing of Death?

[terrahertz]

Great, so now we can expect a Spinning Wing of Death when things go awry?

Re:Spinning Wing of Death?

[GameboyRMH]

Spinning out of control? Just avoid flying it in that way.

iPad taking off

[ewg]

The iPad is finally taking off.

Re:iPad taking off

[Anonymous Coward]

That was just plane wrong.

Re:iPad taking off

[Anonymous Coward]

Rudder nonsense!

Re:iPad taking off

[Palshife]

You'll aileron-ate your friends with jokes that bad!

Re:iPad taking off

[commisaro]

Thanks, these puns really gave me a lift!

Re:iPad taking off

[CYDVicious]

These puns are over my head.

Re:iPad taking off

[need4mospd]

Surely you can't be serious?

Re:iPad taking off

[ThisIsSaei]

iPad jokes just fall flat when you're trying to wing it. Comedy doesn't just fall out of the sky you know. It takes planning, timing, and skill to land a good joke.

Re:iPad taking off

[netdigger]

I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.

Re:iPad taking off

[Aryden]

I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.

Re:iPad taking off

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't take that altitude with me, buddy!

Re:iPad taking off

[frosty_tsm]

Surely you can't be serious?

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

Re:iPad taking off

[geekoid]

I am serious.. you can call me yahoo.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[codegen]

I know you are trying to make a joke, but in-app downloading of books from third party is completely accepted. It is in-app purchase that causes a problem. You can buy the book on amazon.com and download it to the kindle app on ipad, you you just can buy it through the kindle app, or put the link in the kindle app. But you can have a bookmark in safari on the ipad and buy from amazon.com no problem.

How archaic

[Knave75]

Instead of getting rid of the pilot manual, why not just get rid of the pilot?

Computers can now fly better than any human. Yes, the Hudson landing was well done, but that does not mean that a computer would not have been able to pull off the same stunt. If I had a choice, I would definitely take the computer-controlled airplane over the one manned by a pilot who may be tired, drunk, a terrorist, etc.

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

You are mind-bogglingly ignorant.

My God, this place has gone downhill. It more and more resembles a newspaper forum, rather than a gathering of informed minds.

Re:How archaic

[l0ungeb0y]

Move to Europe -- that's how it's done over there.
Worked out real swell for Air France 447.

Re:How archaic

[icebrain]

No they can't. Computer-controlled airplanes can't apply judgment, they can't make decisions. All they do is blindly follow preprogrammed routines, and the ones without human backup still crash with a regularity that would frighten the average person.

Computers may be better at precisely following an invisible airway, or maintaining speed, heading, and altitude to high precision for hours on end, but they really tend to suck at dealing with the unexpected.

Re:How archaic

[rabbit994]

Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error. Something about Europeans and ice screws them up completely. See Air France 447 and British Airways 38.

Re:How archaic

[dragonhunter21]

Fun fact, the Hudson landing was actually computer-assisted- he'd set it so the aircraft would help maintain speed so it wouldn't stall out and fall directly into the water.

But yeah, taking off and landing aren't exactly difficult operations anymore. Taking off? Set your TO/GA, line up, hit the button, and pitch up 10 degrees when the computer calls out the speed. Landing? Shit, ILS approaches are so easy six-year-olds can do them.

Re:How archaic

[0123456]

Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error.

'Pilot error' in the sense that the computer ran into conditions it was unable to handle and dumped the problem back in the hands of the pilots, who -- surprisingly -- couldn't handle it either.

As with another airliner crash some years ago the aircraft seems to have been giving the pilots contradictory readings, and only someone well trained on how to deal with that was likely to be able to keep it in the air.

Re:How archaic

[ColdWetDog]

Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error. Something about Europeans and ice screws them up completely. See Air France 447 and British Airways 38.

It appears to be much more complicated than that.

tl;dr - Lots of bad things happening in a complicated plane that insists on keeping some level of control in a flight envelope that has minimal room for error and in situations that many pilots don't get adequate training for.

Yep, pilot error for sure.

Re:How archaic

[ColdWetDog]

Not so fast Mr. We-Don't-Need-No-Stinkin-Pilots.

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, armchair pilots again. ILS is easy? Have you tried it in a real airplane/real weather? It is actually pretty hard and even experienced pilots would sometimes make mistakes. Sure, there are Cat III approaches that are completely automated but not every airport has them. On the topic of TFA, it is probably more of an issue with legal requirements to have all the current charts aboard: any legal IFR GPS with a current database will have all the instrument charts and approcah plates built in. So it is a fix for a nonexistent problem. The funny thing is Federal regulations prohibit most electronic devices on IFR flights so if you are a private pilot flying in weather, an paper enroute chart/plates are still required.

Re:How archaic

[netdigger]

Sure, a computer will be able to fly from point A to point B with no problem. But what happens at the most critical moments, at take off and landing. A computer would not be able to handle the decisions that must be made at these moments. Also what happens when an air port shuts down for some reason.

Ill take my human pilot.

Re:How archaic

[i22y]

BA038 incident wasn't due to pilot error. Ice may have been involved, but that was ice within the FOHE and outside the pilots' control.

Re:How archaic

[rabbit994]

No but it was Roll-Royce Engine which is built by guess who... EUROPEANS. Other two American Engines options on 777 did not suffer from this issue.

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Why have a pilot at all then?

Re:How archaic

[Zak3056]

Landing? Shit, ILS approaches are so easy six-year-olds can do them.

I've made exactly one ILS approach in my life (during my PP-ASEL training, my CFI was a little bored and had me try one while we were doing some hood time) and I would never suggest it is something so easy anyone can do it. Even in a C172 moving along at 60kts it was a hell of an exercise (especially since it wasn't briefed before hand). I would have made the runway, but it was an ugly assed approach.

Yes, I'm sure a six year old could be taught to do it. That doesn't make it easy.

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error. Something about Europeans and ice screws them up completely. See Air France 447 and British Airways 38.

AF447 is complicated. It is true that the pilots gave the wrong control inputs - but they did it based on very wrong information fed to them from the aircraft. If they had recognized the symptoms of a pitot blockage and run their airspeed disagree checklist, then they would have been flying blind - but maybe not have crashed. But that's an incredibly difficult situation to recognize - and I'm sure that airlines are providing extra training on it for pilots in their recurrent training now.

It's important to note that the autopilot and flight envelope protection systems had already given up. The people who wrote the software didn't expect this specific string of events - a completely automated aircraft would not have fared much, if any, better.

Re:How archaic

[dragonhunter21]

Didn't say we don't need pilots- I'm saying that almost all of the duties of the flight crew during a normal fight can be done as well or better by a computer- and most already are. However, autopilot just doesn't know what to do in an engine failure- it tries to keep the plane at the assigned altitude until it stalls out. We still need humans in the cockpit to handle sticky situations- but why not let the computer handle the mundane bits?

Besides, I'm going into piloting, and I'd like a job when I graduate.

Re:How archaic

[geekoid]

Well, it is thought that the tubes were iced and gave the computer confusing reading; when it may have dumped to the pilot. however, had it been a pilot, they would have known the instruments where incorrect and flown by stick until they could resolve the problem.

Of course, this is all educated guesswork. We really don't know what happened.

Re:How archaic

[geekoid]

"they can't make decisions. All they do is blindly follow preprogrammed routines"
Of course the make decisions, decision based on the data they have, just like you and me. INlike you and me, they don't have emotional baggage.

The programming isn't follow to location x turn 22 degree go to location Y.

All kind of adjustment and changes are done based on new data.

"... but they really tend to suck at dealing with the unexpected."
as does every person.

Re:How archaic

[geekoid]

"autopilot just doesn't know what to do in an engine failure- it tries to keep the plane at the assigned altitude until it stalls out"

false.
In fact, the deal with engine failure very often and very successful. So successful the people on board the plane never no there was a problem, and they do it a lot faster then the pilot.

In fact, there is strong opinion that the number of training hours used on engine failure be lower so there is time for systems training. SO the pilots know whats going on at any given moment, and understand the implications.

The last minute engine stall recovery by pilot really isn't applicable anymore.

Re:How archaic

[geekoid]

"A computer would not be able to handle the decisions that must be made at these moments.
shut up SHUT THE FUCK UP. Yes, it does. The on board system handles take of and landing emergency better then pilots do.

Are all you people posting from 1995?

" Also what happens when an air port shuts down for some reason. "
WTF do you think would happen? how about "It locates the alternative airport'
Wow, that was fucking ahard, wan't it.

If you have flown in a commercial airliner in the last 10 years, it is extremely likely that the takeoff and landing was done by the onboard system, and not the pilots.

IN the event that the pilots where kiled in flight, and you somehow ended up in the pilot seat. do you know what the tower wuld tell you to do?
A) find this panel
B) punch in this code
C) Put your hands in your lap
D) keep your feet flat on the floor.

Get off after the plane comes to a complete stop.

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

Fun fact, the Hudson landing was actually computer-assisted- he'd set it so the aircraft would help maintain speed so it wouldn't stall out and fall directly into the water.

But yeah, taking off and landing aren't exactly difficult operations anymore. Taking off? Set your TO/GA, line up, hit the button, and pitch up 10 degrees when the computer calls out the speed. Landing? Shit, ILS approaches are so easy six-year-olds can do them.

This attitude explains why most GA accidents are on takeoff/landing. There's a lot of judgement involved in flying the pattern correctly (especially in a glider). It takes a long time to learn, and good pilots don't take it for granted.

-- A PPLG.

Re:How archaic

[dragonhunter21]

When I say "engine failure" I think less "Oh, the engine stalled. Let's boot it back up." and more "Oh crap, the engine just fell off."

Maybe that's changed, but I thought it tried to maintain altitude above all else.

Re:How archaic

[self assembled struc]

If you have flown in a commercial airliner in the last 10 years, it is extremely likely that the takeoff and landing was done by the onboard system, and not the pilots>

Actually that's just 100% inaccurate. Even in a CAT IIIc ILS approach the captain or the first pilot has to command the plane to land via the flight instrumentation (either the yoke or the side stick depending on your plane) -- all the auto-pilot and auto-throttle do is line the plane up to the centerline of the runway and control the appropriate thrust for the engines (which, usually during descent, is baseline thrust -- the plane is essentially gliding during part the approach).

And there is no FAA allowance for an automated take-off. Rotation MUST be commanded by a human operator.

Your description of auto-pilot is so inaccurate it hurts my brain. Have you ever seen a commercial airline autopilot?

Re:How archaic

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no procedure on any aircraft that I know of for an engine "Stall", only an engine "Failure" - the two are VERY different. The word "Stall" when used in aviation refers to a lifting surface angle of attack past the critical angle angel of attack - a point beyond which lift can no longer be generated. This can be on a wing, or the fan blades of a turbojet engine.

Re:How archaic

[icebrain]

The programming isn't follow to location x turn 22 degree go to location Y.

On the contrary, that's exactly what the programming is. I would know because I test these systems (computerized flight controls, avionics, etc.) for a living. You don't just hit a "go button".

We're a long, long way (as in decades) from an airplane that can do what you envision safely enough to carry passengers.

LOST without power

[GreyLurk]

Oh sure, that's fine as long as the plane has electricity, but what happens when it crashes on a desert island, and they only have 16 hours of battery life to repair the plane before the manuals become a really expensive paperweight.

Re:LOST without power

[torqer]

...

If a plane were to crash on a deserted island I don't think a flight chart is going to make a difference.

and I'm sure there would be more paper weights than just the ipad... besides, at least you could play some angry birds :)

Re:LOST without power

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sure, that's fine as long as the plane has electricity, but what happens when it crashes on a desert island, and they only have 16 hours of battery life to repair the plane before the manuals become a really expensive paperweight.

Same thing that would have happened with paper manuals: Everyone stays right the fuck where they are until they die or get rescued. Because flight manuals are not airplane repair manuals. Also, pilots are not mechanics. Oh, and the plane didn't crash right next to a fully-equipped repair facility that has all the tools and spare parts you'd need to fix a damaged airplane. Plus the plane is probably already damaged beyond all possibility of repair anyway.

I really hope you were just making a joke that fizzled, and that you're not actually this dumb.

Re:LOST without power

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure they could just power it up again when they restore power to the aircraft (those big noisy spinny thingies do a decent job of generating electricity after all). Of course, if you can repair a plane on a desert island, I'm pretty sure you could make it home without your Jep data.

Re:LOST without power

[camperdave]

Silly! With the manuals on the ipad, there is no need for paperweights.

Re:LOST without power

[John Bresnahan]

But at least paper manuals can be substituted for toilet paper.

Re:LOST without power

[wsxyz]

So can iPads...

Re:LOST without power

[GreyLurk]

See! Doubly useless!

Re:LOST without power

[GreyLurk]

I keep forgetting that Slashdot is not Reddit.. Forgot we're mostly autistic folks who can't recognize jokes.

Re:LOST without power

[Anonymous Coward]

No, what you forgot is how to make a joke. Assuming you ever knew it to begin with, that is. And no, the stupid excuse you just made was not itself a joke, and yes, that IS what you were going to say.

I love that game!

[Anonymous Coward]

Flight Control... great game. I hope people don't get too mixed up
http://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/flight-control-hd/id363727129?mt=8

Ah, the sky couldn't be any safer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pilot #1: Angry Birds
Pilot #2 (co-pilot): Porn

Working overtime is priceless.

We love our iPad, and don't blame us for those rough flights.

- United Airlines

Re:Ah, the sky couldn't be any safer.

[linuxwolf69]

They have porn on iDevices now??? Thought that was only an Android thing.

Terrorists jailbreak and cause another 9/11

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot, where nerds go to die.

And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when the ipad dies or doesn't turn on, and the crew *need* to get at that info?

True...almost all flights those books sit there doing nothing, but the *one* time you need them, you *need* them *right the *#$&@* now, and having your ipad be doa or fritz on you would be *A Very Bad Thing*. I'm sure you can save 38 pounds somewhere else on the plane.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[valderost]

The navigational instruments have their own databases too. It's not like a plane will get lost or crash if an iPad doesn't turn on.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[tazan]

On the other hand there's the risk that you didn't get last months update, or the binder has two page 32's and no page 31. With 38 pounds of manuals to collate I'm sure some of them get messed up. My guess is the Ipad is more reliable.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[Le Marteau]

The aircraft already has the critical information needed in it's Flight Management System ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system ) which includes position locating systems (through GPS and/or radio triangulation) and a database of airports, runways, radio frequencies, waypoints, and much other information. As long as the FMS works, the charts are simply backup.

Most pilots will take a look at the approach plates in the charts, just because they are so nicely done and are more visually understandable, but they are not really necessary any more.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[wsxyz]

What happens when the ipad dies or doesn't turn on, and the crew *need* to get at that info?

True...almost all flights those books sit there doing nothing, but the *one* time you need them, you *need* them *right the *#$&@* now, and having your ipad be doa or fritz on you would be *A Very Bad Thing*. I'm sure you can save 38 pounds somewhere else on the plane.

You know, I'd bet that United probably didn't think of that at all.
It's crazy how often anonymous commenters come up with really important considerations that the pros overlook.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[ColdWetDog]

What happens when the ipad dies or doesn't turn on, and the crew *need* to get at that info?

True...almost all flights those books sit there doing nothing, but the *one* time you need them, you *need* them *right the *#$&@* now, and having your ipad be doa or fritz on you would be *A Very Bad Thing*. I'm sure you can save 38 pounds somewhere else on the plane.

You have two iPads (Captain and first officer). The chance of BOTH iPads failing to work at a critical junction are likely less than the chance the paper charts will get torn / ripped / tossed about the cabin in the event of something very bad happening.

These manuals are for routine work. The emergency checklists are still on paper. Laminated paper.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[node 3]

Pre-flight checklist:

iPad present: check
iPad powers up: check
iPad battery greater than 75%: check
iPad flight manual app loads: check

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[fafaforza]

Right, because no one at the corporate level did a boneheaded mistake. Put all trust in bit companies or the government and see where that gets you.

And what does your username have to do with whether you make a valid point or now? Answer the question or add to the discussion. What should the Slashdot user ID cutoff be if a valid username should be required to make suggestion? 5 digit? 4 digit? Do tell.

Re:And a backup Ipad, and a backup of a backup?

[Agripa]

What is the chance that the same software update will disable both of them?

Huh, makes sense I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming they did some decent meta-organization (something the University of Colorado was doing some interesting research on while I was there in their psychology department--they have a pretty unique cognitive psych approach there that hooks up with their computational linguistics program (which happens to be doing stuff for DARPA) and the traditional comp sci guys) I can see this working out pretty well.

I also imagine the weight-savings are dwarfed by the advantage of speed in information retrieval. Not to mention the pilots are essentially getting free iPads to play with once they've landed. Sounds like a security risk to me. Not to mention "what happens when the batteries are dead?"

Re:Huh, makes sense I guess

[geminidomino]

I also imagine the weight-savings are dwarfed by the advantage of speed in information retrieval

Only if whatever information they need "right now" is on one page. I've had similar experiences as others with e-books with regards to using them for reference. It tends to be on the border of "inconvenient" and "painful."

This is a common failing, and is not iPad specific.

xkcd

[mackai]

http://www.xkcd.com/912/

Personal Electronics

[macemoneta]

So, I guess the use of personal electronics is OK after all?

Re:Personal Electronics

[Darth_brooks]

Nope, Same rules apply. No electronics below ten thousand feet for commercial aircraft. Affect in the pilots? Nil, since they're kinda busy from 0 to 10k anyway.

Re:Personal Electronics

[Wyatt Earp]

Yea, anything happens under 10k and they wouldn't be going to their maps on paper either.

Re:Personal Electronics

[atisss]

The ban is only at takeoff/landing time. Actually as I recall from recent notifications - no electronics are allowed at takeoff/landing time, and the only electronics forbidden for whole flight are sattelite phones / two way pagers. So cell phone should be ok (I even don't put it on airplane mode as it's not asked). I guess you could even set up wireless ap on notebook for some lan gaming :)

Re:Personal Electronics

[AmiMoJo]

Unless they interfere with the operation of the pilot's iPad.

Seriously, vulnerabilities for iOS pop up now and then, and can we be sure that the pilots will keep their's fully patched and with Bluetooth/WiFi off?

exploding batteries?

[Lead Butthead]

keep in mind that other than the LCD, most of that iPad is battery...

This is a joke, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could just see someone writing a computer virus that causes the planes to fly to Cuba.

Re:This is a joke, right?

[Desler]

Except for the fact that these iPads are in no way connected to the plane's electronics? Are you a moron or what?

Re:This is a joke, right?

[ColdWetDog]

I could just see someone writing a computer virus that causes the planes to fly to Cuba.

Just about as likely as this sort of thing happening.

Re:This is a joke, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are connected through the pilot.

Re:This is a joke, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

And this makes for a viral attack vector...how?

In Four Hundred and...

[Leekle2ManE]

Thirty-two miles, begin your descent to...

Recalculating...

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

You know you can actually set up enterprise-only app deployment for internal applications, right?

Scale of the problem

[mdarksbane]

My father-in-law is an amateur pilot who recently explained the scale of this problem to me. It boggles the mind. He said that just in his once a month-or-so flights, he would make back the cost of the ipad over the course of a year, easily.

Every plane has to have the maps and approaches for every airport on their route. But it's more than that. They also need all of the maps for every airport near their route, in case they have to do an emergency landing.

There are a lot of little airports and lots of different approaches. The stack of charts for just the state of Ohio is at least a very thick binder. And, then if you want to fly a little farther on a trip, you get to buy all of those charts, too.

But that's now where it gets complicated. These charts are updated monthly. And the updates are distributed as a "diff" - just the ones that have changed. So you have to go through your binder and replace every single page that's different. And sometimes you find out it was just a temporary change, and it's already changed back.

It's really a big mess for an amateur pilot to take care of. The commercial airlines pay big money just to keep all of their charts in order every month... even though the vast majority of them are never even looked at by the pilots.

So, provided that the battery life is good enough, this is a huge weight/headache/cost reducer for the airlines.

Re:Scale of the problem

[mdf356]

Admittedly it's been 20 years but my father is also an amateur pilot. I never flew outside of Ohio with him, but I recall only 1 map in the airplane, and no detailed info for any airport other than what that one map contained.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Beorytis]

Funny that TFA made a bigger deal about fuel cost, clutter, etc., than the public safety benefit to real-time information.

Re:Scale of the problem

[vlm]

They also need all of the maps for every airport near their route, in case they have to do an emergency landing.

I see not much has changed in the 20 years since I flew a little 152.

Note the critical difference between "need" as in an engineering or technical or real-world need, and "need" as in FAA regs plus pilot tradition say you really need to do this. You already have to listen to ATIS/AWOS to get the altimeter setting, and there is currently a service that digitally broadcasts weather info, and I'm surprised there's nothing out there broadcasting simple digital chart info. Maybe in 10 or 20 years...

Its an interesting intellectual challenge, if in a freak fire accident you lost all your charts, what would be the BEST way to get it on the ground safely. Its very hard to create a scenario where your best choice is to say your prayers. All comm radios are out, transponder out, IFR conditions for hundreds of miles in all directions from dirt to stars, nighttime, low on fuel, all simultaneously seems to be the absolute minimum required, remove any of those conditions and you'd eventually be home free...

Re:Scale of the problem

[spaceyhackerlady]

Every plane has to have the maps and approaches for every airport on their route. But it's more than that. They also need all of the maps for every airport near their route, in case they have to do an emergency landing...

This sounds like instrument approach stuff. On every cross-country flight I've done I've taken my charts and airport sketches with frequencies and stuff (e.g. circuit patterns and altitudes). If I need to divert somewhere, I pull out the Canada Flight Supplement and look up what I need.

...laura

Re:Scale of the problem

[Suzuran]

That one big map is called a sectional chart.
What's on the iPad are approach plates, which are a completely different product.

Sectional charts tell you how to get from airport A to airport B and what's in between to avoid or use as reference points.
Approach plates are used by instrument-rated pilots to fly the approaches and departures for a given airport.

Re:Scale of the problem

[vlm]

Admittedly it's been 20 years but my father is also an amateur pilot. I never flew outside of Ohio with him, but I recall only 1 map in the airplane, and no detailed info for any airport other than what that one map contained.

FAA part 121 aka "so you wanna run an airline" is much stricter than just flyin around as a private pilot under part 91.

Kind of like the difference between what a HAZMAT-CDL commercial truck driver has to put up with, vs joe random automobile driver.

Any of the rules I remember about private pilots and charts are 20 years out of date. Are you my son? If so, WTF are you doing on /. get back to work.

Re:Scale of the problem

[sjames]

New aircraft feature: cigarette lighter on the console! :-)

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because your father was flying according to VFR.

For IFR flight (basically every commercial flight is IFR, even when weather is good) you need exactly what was written above.
In larger aircraft onboard computers usually have all of that inside, but it's required to keep additional copy just in case.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Amateur pilot here,
there are rules, and there is reality. You get to know your airspace through experience. And if you're really lost, you've got radios. And if those don't work, there's lights.
I carry maps of the major airports nearby. You can see the layout of the little ones, simply call out your approach and somebody will tell you if it's wrong.

More than once I've looked at the PDF versions of the charts (which you can get for free!) and wondered if I wouldn't be better off using that mid-flight. Searchable!! You don't have TIME to thumb through the thousand page book when you need the map.
But I like the feeling of not relying on things I can't control - battery life.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a PPL. For VFR flights you only really need to have sectional charts covering your route on board, although an Airport Facilities Directory is also highly recommended.

For an IFR flight you are going to need Low Level Enroute charts and possibly High Level Enroute charts for your route depending upon your maximum altitude. You will also need a copy of the approach plates ( terminal procedures ) for you destination airport and any alternates you specify. It's a really really good idea to just have all the approach plates for all the airports on and near your route. You never when you are going to run into trouble have to get down quickly. You might as well have sectionals on board as well b/c they also come in handy when things start going sideways along with the AFD. The AFD is also by regions so you may need more than one.

And then you have whatever papers your flight plan is on ...

All and all it adds up to a crap ton of paper to manage in the cockpit. You can replace some of this with a good glass cockpit but what happens when that fails?

Re:Scale of the problem

[kybur]

The airlines to hire people to keep the airplane's copy of all the charts up to date, but in almost every airline, the pilots are responsible for doing the updates on their own set, and everyone needs their own set. Every time a new update comes out, every pilot gets an envelope with a hundred or more loose leaf pages, and they have to locate the old copy of each in their chart book, tear out the old one, and insert the new one into the rings. It is really annoying and takes a long time.

Time spent preparing charts is not counted as duty time, so often times, pilots who have been busy or who have procrastinated will be up late the night before a trip updating all the approach plates so that they are legal to fly the next day.

With electronic flight bags, the airline still keeps paper copies in the cockpit, but the pilots use their electronic copies, and the updates involve touching an update button. With the Jeppessen product, all the specific company and aircraft specific manuals are also linked to your account, so if any procedures change, those are also updated within the app. It is very cool. Pilots should focus on flying, not collating. This is a huge step forward.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So, provided that the battery life is good enough, this is a huge weight/headache/cost reducer for the airlines.

Cost reducer? Hah! You really think Jeppesen is going to sell all the charts for less than buying the paper ones?

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how they plan to do the real-time information thing. Sounds like a wireless connection of some sorts to me, which last I heard was illegal to use in airplanes.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Admittedly it's been 20 years but my father is also an amateur pilot. I never flew outside of Ohio with him, but I recall only 1 map in the airplane, and no detailed info for any airport other than what that one map contained.

Well, it's been a while for me too, but as I recall you were required to keep on-board, a copy of a local VRF Terminal Area Chart (one of which would be cover an area several states large, so you would only need one or two on a typical trip) and a Canada Flight Supplement, which would contain additional information on all aerodromes in the country, in a single tome.

Pretty sure it was illegal to fly without the latter (or its US equivalent) so your dad may have been in breach of law, or you might simply not have noticed it since it's pretty small and rarely used for airports that you know well.

Re:Scale of the problem

[mdarksbane]

Currently you can get all of the maps for a 15$/month (or something similar) subscription as an amateur pilot.

All of the maps are available for free/ the cost of printing. It's the cost of binding, publishing, and managing them that gets ridiculous.

Re:Scale of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You're probably hitting on the difference between VFR and IFR - Visual Flight Rules versus Instrument Flight Rules. Someone flying under VFR can get away with using no maps at all, provided they are flying under certain meteorological conditions (i.e. stay the fuck away from clouds, have to be able to see for many miles in all directions), and staying out of certain airspace (anywhere near a relatively busy airport, and above 18,000 feet).

All commercial aviation is done under IFR, which means constant contact with ATC and having to bring sufficient charts to be able to fly anywhere along your intended route on instruments alone.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[i22y]

The apps are nothing new. ForeFlight and WingX are the two main products for general aviation.

Stow for landing?

[valderost]

Those electronic approach plates aren't going to do anyone any good once the iPads are turned off and stowed for landing.

Don't fly on any airline that uses Android tablets

[jmcbain]

I definitely would not want to fly with any airline that uses Android tablets.

• If the airline uses Android tablets, that means the airline is not doing well financially, which means they're probably cutting back on safety and comfort as well.
• Android's excessive fragmentation and malware means that the Android tablets may be crippled, causing the pilots to crash the plane.

Say NO to mediocrity. Say NO to Android.

Makes sense to me.

[dragonhunter21]

I'm in a college course for professional pilots, and iPad2s are required equipment, mainly (as it was explained to me) because of the charts.

I'm no great fan of the iPads, but it's smaller, lighter, and easier to use inside a cockpit. Sounds like a plan to me.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[alen]

the are using a third party app from jeppesen. it works via subscription. thousands of professional apps have done this for years. you just can't subscribe from within the app or you have to pay apple 30%.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

...now we know who jizzed their pants at the slightly thinner ipad2.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[shugah]

Pilot: What's the procedure for a hot restart on a PW4062A at 10,000m?

Co-Pilot: Wait a minute, I just have to find where I downloaded that manual ... WTF? What's a mobi file and why can't my Kobo reader open it?

Pilot (grabs iPad): You idiot! Just get the ePub version and use iBooks!

Co-Pilot: Don't hold it that way it fucks up the antenna!

Pilot: That's the iPhone4 not the iPad

Co-Pilot: Oh yeah. Hey! where the hell are we?

Pilot: How the fuck should I know, this is the WiFi version with no fucking GPS!

/yawn

[dhermann]

I did that already.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[vlm]

Flight manuals and navigation charts from the AppStore? Because Apple doesn't allow in-app downloading of books from third party publishers.

Conceptual error of "ebook" vs pdf.

I can and have downloaded individual charts in PDF format, for free, from about a zillion different online sites. Then load the PDF in cloudviewer, boot the gaming PC into xplane, and take off on a simulated flight... while holding full charts for my two airports.

I don't know how well that scales to a full subscription of all the worlds charts, probably poorly. But I'm guessing you're thinking of buying the charts in the Kindle App (not even possible, I think?).

Do they have to power them off?

[davevr]

Do they have to power them off at take-off and landing? If not, why do they make us do that?

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[danlip]

I am sure putting them in airplane mod is safe enough. So why do they make passengers turn them off? Because it is hella hard to police a whole plane full of passengers and make sure everyone who is using their devices has them in airplane mode, and you can't really expect most passengers to be responsible. It's much easier to just look for anyone using a device. Of course just because they aren't using their devices doesn't mean they are off, but it's the best you can hope for.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to talk about wether it interferes with their equipment or not. That is so heavily debated that you can't really get to the truth.

Big reason they want them off has nothing to do with interferance. If they have an emergency during take off or landing, they have prescious few seconds to prepare things before the plane crashes. If you are 30,000 feet up, they have time as they decend to get things organized. If they are going down during take off or landing, they need your full attention and for you to be prepared to assume the position, listen to instructions.

They do not have time to tell everyone to stop paying to their electronic devices or get their ear buds out of their ears and listen. You are 2,000 feet and then engine just quit, get in your crash position NOW. If half the people are not listening, they don't have time to repeat themselves because you just crashed.

In addition, if you believe there is interferance, that is the buys time and they can't afford to wait for stuff to reboot, interferance to go away. While up in the sky, you have a lot more time to figure out and solve the problem.

During landing and take off, they want you paying attention to them and to your surroundings, not stuffing ear buds in your ears and ignoring them.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[Wyatt Earp]

I've never had to turn my iPhone, iPods, iPad or laptops all the way off when I flew. Just put the device into airplane mode and put it to sleep.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[danlip]

they tell you to turn off all electronic devices on take-off and landing in the US.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[Wyatt Earp]

I flew last month, I didn't have to turn off my iPhone, iPad or Macbook Pro, all were sleeping from when the call came to turn them off till 10,000 feet.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[larkost]

Why do they make you turn off your random electronics during takeoff and landing? Well, because a slightly worn piece of electronics, especially ones with a nice wire acting as an antenna (you know, like the wire to your headphones) can suddenly become a transmitter, and since that transmitter is nearer to the plane's sensitive navigational instrumentation by a good deal, and wireless signals drop off on a cubic curve, that makes your accidental transmitter easily thousands of times louder to the instrumentation than the signal they need to lock onto. Does that explain anything to you?

Now in this case I would bet that the iPads will be stored in specially certified cases, both to prevent problems from being dropped (this is a piece of safety equipment after all), and to prevent any chance of RF interference going out from it, even if something goes absolutely wrong with the iPad.

And really... is playing Angry Birds for 20 minutes more really worth risking everyone's life for? Really? Are you going to be sure that you are not doing that?

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[formfeed]

Do they have to power them off at take-off and landing?

Of course not, tilting the iPAd controls the aircraft's pitch and roll.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[geekoid]

So you can break the rules, well done, jack ass.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[Cimexus]

The reason they tell you to power off electronic devices is less to do with worries about interference, and more to do with you not being distracted by a shiny electronic gadget in case there is a need to rapidly evacuate the aircraft. Which is most likely to happen on takeoff or landing.

Re:Do they have to power them off?

[Wyatt Earp]

Airplane mode conforms with FAA standards for flight, putting a device to sleep and stowing them conforms with FAA regulations.

"Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part."

If it's sleeping and stowed it's no in operation.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1355
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane_mode
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-306-FAR.shtml

Oh and jackass is one word, not two.

Turn them off?

[madmark1]

Does this mean they will all turn them off during takeoff and landing, or is an iPad actually sitting in the cockpit next to the radio stack and other sensitive navigation equipment not as worrysome as one at the back of the plane near the restrooms?

why hasn't this been posted yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

how does dropping 38 pounds a flight save that much fuel? what am i missing?

Re:why hasn't this been posted yet?

[squidflakes]

Weight is overcome by thrust. The lighter the aircraft, the less thrust required to maintain a given speed. The less thrust you need for a given speed, the left fuel you burn.

Yes, 38 pounds makes a difference when you're talking about multiplying it over millions of flight hours per year.

Re:Don't fly on any airline that uses Android tabl

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you post just to be told you are a fucking idiot?

What if it fails?

[khendron]

I can imagine the announcement from the cockpit: "This is your captain speaking.We will be in a holding pattern for a little bit, while we deal with some minor technical issues. I expect we will be delayed about 1 hour into Chicago...By the way, does anybody on board have an iPad?"

Re:What if it fails?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do the same thing when you realize you forgot the chart or spilled coffee on it. Call up the controller on the radio and ask for directions. You'll have some explaining to do but ...

Re:What if it fails?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can imagine the announcement from the cockpit: "This is your captain speaking.We will be in a holding pattern for a little bit, while we deal with some minor technical issues. I expect we will be delayed about 1 hour into Chicago...By the way, does anybody on board have an iPad?"

Is that not an awesome scenario? It'd be better than "This is your captain speaking. I've managed to spill coffee all over the map we were about to use to land with, and it's ruined. Does anyone have a huge binder of maps containing the local area?"

Done in an 11-year old New Yorker cartoon

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.cartoonbank.com/2000/this-is-so-cool-im-flying-this-thing-completely-on-my-palm-pilot/invt/119393/

Not flying with them ever again

[Wingfat]

please remind me to never fly with them. In my years of boycotting Apple this should be the easiest one to do. I would never trust or rely on a device that is hackable by a 12yr old for functions people might need to survive. what's next are they going to hook the controllers up to a Wii Mote? (a 6axis Sony controller would work better though )

Re:Not flying with them ever again

[geekoid]

One less whiny short sighted SOB I have to sit next to, thanks.

Re:Not flying with them ever again

[Cimexus]

I'm pretty sure an iPad is no more 'hackable' than the paper manuals it's replacing in this case.

Mind you, United sucks anyway. Flew them a couple of years ago, SYD-SFO-SYD and it was awful. No video on demand, no seat-back monitors etc. I mean seriously, by that time, every other international airline had had that kind of stuff for a decade, and it's inexcusable on one of longest routes in the world (up to 15 hours westbound). Not to mention the crusty old seats that looked like they had last been reupholstered in 1986. And the nickel-and-diming you on domestic flights for everything (no free food, no free drinks, charging you for headsets ... though admittedly I think ALL US domestic carriers are guilty of this stuff).

So yeah I wouldn't fly with them again either. But not because of the iPads.

Re:Not flying with them ever again

[Anonymous Coward]

name calling.. sweet. I love the kids that post on here.

Re:Not flying with them ever again

[Anonymous Coward]

good points there ;-0

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[ColdWetDog]

Do everyone a favor. Keep your day job. Don't try your hand at script writing.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[shugah]

Oh Zing! Good one. You sure nailed me!

Angry birds

[microbee]

The plane will definitely see some angry birds

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Tharsman]

Although I know you are just complaining about Apple's Walled Garden's policies, it is good to know a bit more about how they actually work.

For instance, corporations just have to register for an Apple Corporate Development program to be able to do anything they want with their iPads without jail-breaking. They can even wirelessly distribute apps to all the devices they have approved and create apps that don't need to conform with Apple's infamous approval rules. They don't have to worry about undocumented or proprietary APIs, and should they choose to, they can keep their pilots stocked with brand new pornography for every single flight! :)

Re:Don't fly on any airline that uses Android tabl

[JackAxe]

When you post, a kitten dies! Anyways prime-douche boy, instead of killing kittens, you should go back to drooling on your mother's crotch.

Wireless Interference

[Tarlus]

Hope they remember to use Airplane Mode.

Please turn your all electronic devices ..uuppssss

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait for that announcement during take off/landing.

real-time update to text books

[Lead Butthead]

wait till text books are 'updated' in real time over 3G or WiFi to fit the current prevailing political views, Ã la Ministry of Truth...

Re:real-time update to text books

[dragonhunter21]

I'm sorry, did I drop into the Fox forums by accident?

DRM

[harryjohnston]

I can imagine it now ...

But the case!

[squidflakes]

I wonder if someone is going to manufacture a tiny rectangular flight case to fit the iPads. How else are you supposed to know those things are for flight operations only if you don't have the rectangular, two latch, top fold case?!?!

so pilots can use cellular and wifi?

[grapeape]

The article mentions real time info and updates which means using 3g most likely, but wasn't United one of the loudest in declaring wifi and 3g use unsafe for passengers to use because supposedly it could potentially interfere with flight controls? Wouldn't having them in direct contact with those instruments and controls be a bit bigger issue or were they just lying to make more money off of those back of the headrest phones?

38 pounds... per airplane?

[sabt-pestnu]

If 38 pounds makes that large a difference, perhaps they should be promoting weight loss plans for their pilots as well. It'd be a two-fer: lower fuel bills AND lower insurance costs.

Re:38 pounds... per airplane?

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of the pilots are ex-military pilots. Many of the pilots are in excellent shape.

Perhaps they'd be better served by promoting weight loss plans for their fat-ass customers who barely fit in their seats.

Human Factors

[lxrslh]

I'd like to see the screen layout / menu structure to visualize how the pilot quickly accesses critical information during a flight emergency...

Ahh debt

[Dunbal]

It's fun when you simply take on more debt. United owes 38 billion dollars, yet it absolutely MUST use iPads (and not some cheaper brand of tablet) to store its maps. Uh huh. Just issue more stock/bonds when you need more money, eh?

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[dissy]

But I'm guessing you're thinking of buying the charts in the Kindle App (not even possible, I think?).

Actually he's clearly thinking he is making a funny comment at Apples expense, nothing more.

This is a single app in the app store, and of course it downloads the charts directly from them based on your serial number (Same account used as on the computer version.)

More detailed info on this app is best gained from the people who make it.
http://www.jeppesen.com/apps/mobilefd/index.jsp

Apple does not prevent apps from downloading data.
The bullet point list of features for the app shows this is exactly what they do.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

This is great-- thanks for making my day!

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

Awwww! But I want to buy from an app-store-within-an-app-store-within-an-app-store!

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Americano]

should they choose to, they can keep their pilots stocked with brand new pornography for every single flight!

Copilot, take the controls, I need to get a little... 'stick time'.

Wuh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pilots of United and Continental will ditch flight manuals and charts in favor of 11,000 iPads

Each!?

Easier for crews to stay connected and updated

[acidradio]

When I worked for one of the above-listed airlines I had pilots ask all the time "Hey, can I borrow one of your computers? I gotta check my e-mail." And we politely obliged. With an iPad they can check it pretty much whenever/wherever without ever having to walk out of the aircraft. Not only e-mail but schedule and assignment updates. Rather than have to "go to" the e-mail they can now get it without leaving the aircraft. Sometimes the dispatcher has some new routing info for them or weather. Sometimes the flight crews and flight attendants get moved around to different flights and it helps to know what to expect later on that day.

Also, those Jepp books need to be updated on a regular basis. Airports regularly change. And everyone in the airline has to be up to date with new revisions. With this I would imagine that they would get instant or nearly-instant updates without any extra work. The pilots get important chart updates, nobody has to worry about being out of compliance and they don't have to lug around a huge flight bag (the Jepp book is one of the big things they have to lug around!).

There is talk about cost. Every time that the pilot has to go track down information (e-mails, charts, weather, information) that is something that takes up time and can cause delays. Delays ARE money in the airline business. There is talk about reliability. Each pilot will have an iPad; I doubt that 2 iPads would go bad at the same time if that were to be an event. This isn't going to be wired into the aircraft itself doing any work, rather it's a chart to be viewed. Pilots can always lose their Jepp books or lose pages (also known as 'plates') since they are really thin paper.

I wonder if the aircraft maintenance logbook will go automated someday. Right now if something needs to be repaired on the plane the pilots get out a logbook, fill it out (often hard to read through 5 carbon copies), call the problem into the dispatcher. This would be a neat way to automate that process, get rid of paperwork and possibly expedite the repair process.

stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

So now if I can hack an ipad i can take down a plane? This is such a stupid idea, ipads are easily hacked and there's too much dependency on once piece of plastic.

Also the ipad is a bad choice anyways, overpriced and a shitty tablet.

Remind me to never fly alaska air

Re:stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

So now if I can hack an ipad i can take down a plane?

No. You goddamned idiot.

Remind me to never fly alaska air

Don't ever fly Alaska Air. Not because there's anything wrong with this iPad thing, but because I fly Alaska Air, and I'd worry that whatever disease you have that makes you so brutally retarded might be contagious.

For the pilots?

[slapout]

And this is to help them find the plane, right?

And save even more

[toby]

by requiring everyone to fly naked.

Ah

[toby]

The old "everyone but me is an idiot" argument.

Why should they care?

[jeko]

They're too big to fail. Any time they can't make payroll, our tax dollars will bail them out, no questions asked. The executives who ask for the check will get multi-million dollar bonuses for "proactively meeting challenges."

The worst punishment large corporations face these days is that maybe, just maybe, they'll need to give themselves a new name,

Re:Why should they care?

[Dunbal]

Nobody is too big to fail. As the US government will eventually find out if it keeps backing these losing horses. Delaying something is not the same as fixing something. When you try to stop the tide make sure you're standing in a high place.

What's the backup system?

[dmmiller2k]

What's the backup system? Google Maps on the copilot's iPhone?

Re:What's the backup system?

[Le Marteau]

The charts ARE a backup system. Navigation these days is done using the Flight Management System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system

Agreed

[formfeed]

If the airline uses Android tablets, that means the airline is not doing well financially, which means they're probably cutting back on safety and comfort as

From now on, I will only fly with airlines that value their pilots high enough to buy them iPads. I also would not want to have my money at a bank that isn't all marble, oak, and crystal chandeliers. Banks that can't afford luxury interiors might not have the resources to invest my money responsibly.

Also make sure the pilot smells like Gin, so you can be sure you are with someone who is sophisticated and enjoys life .

Would have cost them less to use TouchPads!

[Rossman]

I don't really get why these companies all have to blindly use the iPad. Slate computers have been around for a long time there is no real reason for them to have waited until the iPad came out.

They also could have just bought all of HP's TouchPad inventory and probably gotten a much better deal.

Re:Would have cost them less to use TouchPads!

[geekoid]

iPad finally made them good and responsive.

and you don't want to buy 11,000 of an item that won't have support, and is going out of business.

Re:Don't fly on any airline that uses Android tabl

[Rik Rohl]

Florian, is that you?

Screen glare vs. Sunglasses

[Anonymous Coward]

I found that with my polarized sunglasses and the intensely bright sunlight at 28K feet that the screen was solid black. Although if I closed one eye I could see a bit of the screen again.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

Many pilots are adding a Bad Elf GPS to their Wifi iPads to add GPS for their favorite aviation apps(ForeFlight, WingX, Jeppesen, etc.)

Stuxnet2 - What a great terrorist tool

[k2backhoe]

Cyber war gave us the stuxnet worm that was very selective and only activated when it could ruin gas centrifuges. The Ipad would make airlines vulnerable to a clever al qaeda hacker who makes a worm that activates when certain critical conditions were met (i.e. when a US airliner was over water, or during a critical landing maneuver). Are we conceited enough to think that USA and Israel are the only ones with master hackers?

Re:Stuxnet2 - What a great terrorist tool

[Anonymous Coward]

The Ipad would make airlines vulnerable to a clever al qaeda hacker...

No it wouldn't, you grotesquely stupid inbred. The iPads aren't networked into the plane console. You are literally claiming bthat iPads are magic.

Re:Stuxnet2 - What a great terrorist tool

[k2backhoe]

Used for navigation. Provide wrong navigation coordinates to the pilots under conditions of reduced visibility. The humans will follow blindly in most cases. We have seen large numbers of aviation accidents like this. Remember the plane that got shot down over NK because the pilot had entered wrong co-ords into the autopilot? Sorry for your anger and lack of imagination. I just hope the terrorists have similar mind sets.

Re:Stuxnet2 - What a great terrorist tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking doesn't work like that. You think it does because of TV. You wholeheartedly believe that you can "zoom and enhance" a picture like they do on CSI. You're lying if you claim otherwise.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoop whoop.... Too low. Terrain

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[shugah]

Probably doesn't work in "Airplane Mode"

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[shugah]

Actually I think navigational charts are distributed by "bump".

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[The Dawn Of Time]

Not for nothing but... yeah, he basically got you on that one. I mean unless you were going for an audience reaction of "wtf? give my my 15 seconds back."

Don't be fooled by the upmods, bashing Apple is an automatic +3 these days. I'll randomly bash them in a reply to something else in this story and probably hit +4 Insightful.

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

Do everyone a favor. Keep your day job. Don't try your hand at script writing.

You have not seen many movies lately have you?

Re:Cool! So I guess we can purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the WiFi version DOES have GPS